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Hey everyone, and welcome to the
Doctors of Running podcast, 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, talk about the

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art and the science of what we 
put on our feet. 

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Today, it's going to be Andrea 
and I that are going to do a buy

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or sell episode. 
And we're really hoping, because

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every time Andrea comes on, the 
goal is to have us argue and 

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disagree, but what we're 
probably going to do is end up 

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actually agreeing on things. 
So hopefully we'll get some 

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disagreements here and have 
things be a little bit more 

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entertaining. 
As always, we want to do – 

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there's a little promo for 
Rabbit, who was our really 

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wonderful sponsor of this 
podcast. 

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The code for those that are 
wondering is AUGDOR10, so 

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everything in capital letters, 
for 10% off your order of $50 or

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more. 
And again, they've still got 

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some good stuff. 
If you were one of the many 

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lucky people that managed to 
grab some of our branded Rabbit 

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apparel that came out, I got 
three of the shirts. 

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Andrea, did you get anything 
additional? 

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Oh, I got, well, I have the long
sleeve and the short sleeve and 

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the sweatshirt. 
So I've got it all. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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It was really good. 
I enjoy being able to get to run

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in them. 
And they, they wick sweat pretty

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well and just been enjoying it. 
They're so comfortable. 

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So yeah. 
AUGDOR10, one word, all capitals

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for those who want it. 
But Andrea, what do you have in 

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for testing? 
So I feel like, you know, I 

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spent most of the beginning of 
2026 complaining about all of 

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the shoes that I was testing 
because they were all super high

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stack, really soft. 
And I just hated them. 

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And I feel like the Superblast 3
is the most emblematic of the 

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shoes I hated at the beginning 
of the year. 

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So I was, you know, crossing my 
fingers that summer or the 

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second half of the year would 
redeem my happiness in testing 

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shoes. 
And it definitely has. 

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Like the shoes we're going to 
talk about in the buy or sell. 

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We've just we've gotten such 
different, interesting shoes, 

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I'd say, in the past couple of 
months. 

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And the shoes that I have in for
testing are no exception. 

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So I'm excited to talk about 
this one, which the embargo will

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end the day we release this pod.
So it is the Nike Pegasus Plus 

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2. 
You don't have this, right? 

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I do not. 
I just saw somebody wearing it 

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casually in the park two days 
ago, but I do not have it. 

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And also, even though Nike is 
like a 20-minute drive from me, 

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but no. 
No, you didn't get it. 

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I'm not sour or anything. 
No. 

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So I did not like the original 
Pegasus Plus. 

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I just found it stiff, tall, 
clunky, not enjoyable to run in.

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But when this shoe came, I put 
it on and I was like, holy cow, 

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this is like one of the most 
comfortable Nike shoes I've 

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tried on. 
Just walking around in it, it 

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was really comfortable. 
The fit is better than a lot of 

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Nike shoes. 
You can see how wide the toe 

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boxes, which is not really 
typical. 

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And actually in the spec 
information Nike gave us, it 

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says it's built on a new last, 
which they say is the same last 

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as the Pegasus 42. 
I didn't get that shoe to test, 

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so I don't know if that is true.
But you know, I am always 

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complaining about narrow toe box
shoes, and this shoe is so 

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comfortable in the toe box. 
Not in like an overly roomy way,

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but just in a, this is a Nike 
shoe that actually is 

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comfortable on every part of my 
footway. 

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So I really like the fit. 
I've done a couple easy runs in 

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it. 
So it's got tuned air zoom pods 

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in the front. 
So depending on the shoe size, 

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they have changed the thickness 
and how much pressure is in the 

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pod, which is kind of cool. 
I don't know if they do that in 

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any of the Alphafly models. 
Do you? 

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Yeah, I do not know, to be 
honest. 

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So it's 38 millimeters in the 
heel, 28 in the forefoot, so 10 

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millimeter drop. 
That 10 millimeter drop is 

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definitely noticeable for me. 
The heel does feel clunkier when

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I'm running in it, but I really 
like the forefoot feel. 

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The AlphaFly one is hands down 
my favorite super shoe ever. 

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Like I have every race PR half 
marathon on on down. 

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I've gotten in that shoe. 
And this shoe feels it's not 

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quite as poppy, but the air zoom
pods provide that same type of 

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like propulsive bounce in the 
forefoot that I really like. 

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But the clunky heel definitely 
takes away from a little bit of 

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that. 
This is definitely not an alpha 

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fly. 
It is a training shoe that is 

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not particularly light. 
I weighed my pair. 

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So mine are women's nine and a 
half. 

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Mine weigh 8.5 ounces and 240 
grams. 

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Nike says the official weight is
226 grams for women's eight and 

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270 for men's 10. 
So not a light shoe, but I think

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it's going to be a good easy run
shoe for a lot of people. 

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I haven't tried picking up the 
pace in it yet just because it 

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hasn't worked out with my 
training schedule, but I wonder 

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if maybe I won't notice the heel
as much running a little faster 

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so i'll have to report back in 
our written review but this shoe

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surprised me um so those who 
didn't like the original uh 

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pegasus plus this is a very 
different shoe so might be worth

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taking a look at that is good to
hear just because i was as 

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someone who was a turbo lover i 
loved version one and two and so

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i was very excited for the plus 
to come out i did not like it it

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just didn't have it was soft it 
didn't have the bounce i would 

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have associated with like zoom x
foam like the originals were 

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very bouncy and maybe it's 
because contrast wise we'd never

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experienced zoom x like that in 
a training shoe before but fit 

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felt off this especially the uh 
whatever this this stripe just 

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created a lot of pressure points
and i just could never get into 

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rhythm with this shoe so So I'm 
hoping that's better. 

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The other thing I can appreciate
and not having a pair is like it

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is nice. 
And I'm not saying everything 

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needs to be this. 
But there's not a lot of higher 

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like 10 millimeter drop stuff 
out there. 

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I think Nike is kind of one of 
the few. 

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So for those that do need that 
little higher elevation, it's 

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great that still exists. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
One thing you remind me of 

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showing the sole. 
This has one of the most narrow 

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midfoots of any shoe I've 
tested. 

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So this is going to be a problem
for some people. 

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So it's not bothering me, but 
this visually looks narrower 

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than the midfoot of, let's say, 
the Vaporfly 3. 

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I actually can't think of a shoe
that I own that has a midfoot 

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that looks this narrow. 
Wait until you see, and we don't

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have this, but wait until you 
see the Nike Vaporfly 5, which 

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looks like this narrow on the 
lateral aspect. 

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Not confirmed, just seeing 
things on Instagram. 

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Yeah. 
So I'm excited to get more miles

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on it. 
It's definitely a very different

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shoe. 
But that 10 millimeter drop is 

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going to be polarizing. 
It'll be good for some people, 

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bad for other people. 
But I've got a couple other 

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shoes I've been putting miles 
on. 

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And that is the Puma Velocity 
Nitro on the 5. 

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And this shoe, Puma shoes always
surprise me because the fit is 

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usually better than I expect it 
to be because Puma does a really

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great job of widening the 
forefoot just where I need it. 

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Not every Puma shoe widens 
exactly where I would prefer, 

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but this one does. 
So it's pretty comfortable. 

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This shoe, it's pretty soft. 
Well, not overly soft, but 

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softer than I would maybe like. 
I wouldn't really want to pick 

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up the pace in it, but it was 
pretty comfortable for like an 

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easy run I did the other day. 
I don't have specs on it, but I 

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think the velocity is usually 8 
to 10 millimeter drop. 

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It is pretty light, definitely 
lighter than the peg plus two, I

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would guess. 
Yeah, I think for some people 

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it'll be a great daily trainer. 
I need more miles on it to 

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really decide what I would use 
it best for. 

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But overall, I've been enjoying 
the fit. 

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Just wish the midsole was a 
little bit firmer. 

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Have you tested this one? 
No, I was in version four, which

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was definitely too soft and 
narrow for me. 

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I could appreciate it. 
It just doesn't work with my 

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mechanics. 
Somebody needs a little bit more

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structure personally. 
But I totally understand. 

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David calls it the, what was the
term? 

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The Velocity Bros? 
Yes. 

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That get really, or really love 
that shoe. 

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It almost has a cult following 
at this point. 

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Puma, if you kill that shoe, 
you're going to have a, like, 

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people are going to revolt. 
Yeah, a lot of unhappy people. 

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Yes. 
Yeah, people really like it. 

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All right. 
And then, this is not a new 

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shoe, but I've finally gotten 
some use out of it. 

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It is the Topo Connect, which is
their lowest stack, zero drop 

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shoe. 
They say it's designed for 

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mostly gym use, and that's what 
I've been using it for. 

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So this year, I've gotten to 
test a bunch of shoes like this,

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you know, minimalist, designed 
for strength training. 

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And prior to testing this shoe, 
the Zero, oh gosh, Max. 

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Of course, I've forgotten the 
name of the shoe. 

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Their weightlifting shoe. 
That has been my favorite one, 

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but this one surpasses it. 
The sole feels a little bit 

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more, I think, articulated is 
the best way to say. 

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Like, it just feels like it 
moves with my foot a little bit 

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better. 
And I think it's because of the 

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way that these, you can see that
there's like a diagonal flex 

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groove in the forefoot. 
It just feels more natural than 

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the Zero Shoe, which is 
surprising since Zero Shoe's are

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so minimalist. 
Yes. 

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Zero XT Max. 
Yes. 

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That's right. 
Yeah. 

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So, I mean, I still love that 
shoe. 

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Like, it's a great, great 
strength training shoe. 

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But for me, this one's just been
a little more, I don't even 

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notice it on my foot. 
And the Zero HT Max, the way 

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that the sole bends, it's not 
quite as natural as this one. 

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But it's been great, super 
comfortable. 

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What's cool is, you know, a lot 
of people, including myself at 

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times, don't like the arch 
support that Puma builds into 

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their shoes, which, you know, if
you think about it, you're 

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making a more minimal style 
shoe. 

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Putting a giant arch support in 
it doesn't really make sense. 

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But this shoe is designed so you
can take it out and you still 

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have some foot protection. 
But then there's no arch support

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in here, which is kind of cool. 
And for the listeners, you mean 

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Topo, right? 
Topo, yeah. 

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Yes. 
Oh, did I say zero? 

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You said Puma. 
Oh. 

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I'm still thinking about how 
they didn't send us the third. 

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All right. 
So my complaining is working on 

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the one person. 
Yes. 

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Thank you, man. 
So those are the shoes that I've

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been testing. 
What have you been getting miles

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on? 
Got it. 

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So I've got a couple of really 
interesting things, some things 

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that I wasn't expecting to like.
But they've actually been really

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good. 
And I'll be able to talk about 

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this because when this comes 
out, the embargo will be up. 

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This is the Diodora Corsa, which
is probably the best Diodora 

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shoe I have ever tested. 
A lot of times it's the shoe, 

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you know, Diodora, you guys, I 
can see they're trying, right? 

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The shoes are very expensive. 
But the Corsa, it's the 

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combination of the fit is just 
right, where I really thought it

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was going to be fairly narrow, 
but classic to Diodora and 

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Italian shoes. 
It breaks in really nicely. 

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I've had plenty of room here. 
The sole is not the most narrow 

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thing. and the Anima 2 is 
actually really nice and bouncy.

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Some of the phones have just 
felt like they're a little 

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older, not quite as responsive. 
This is their lightweight 

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trainer, so there is no plate. 
There's some flexibility, but I 

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just did a long run, a very 
hilly long run pushing a stroll 

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in the shoe, and it was great. 
So I've really enjoyed this. 

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And at $160, it's not bad for an
Italian shoe. 

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So durability, I have about 40 
miles in the pair. 

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00:12:37,164 --> 00:12:39,020
This is my left shoe. 
It's doing great. 

223
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,087
I thought I was going to chew 
that off. 

224
00:12:41,087 --> 00:12:42,646
It hasn't. 
So it's been really good. 

225
00:12:42,646 --> 00:12:46,114
Is it the best of the best? 
No, but it's getting there. 

226
00:12:46,114 --> 00:12:48,928
And this is such a massive 
improvement for D'Adore that 

227
00:12:48,928 --> 00:12:50,600
makes me really excited to see 
what's coming. 

228
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,479
And I'm going to still get miles
in this. 

229
00:12:52,940 --> 00:12:54,991
It weirdly feels quite stable 
for me. 

230
00:12:54,991 --> 00:12:57,042
There's some really good rear 
foot sidewalls. 

231
00:12:57,042 --> 00:13:01,428
The split here in the heel, the 
lateral aspect of the heel 

232
00:13:01,428 --> 00:13:03,652
compresses very nicely and 
doesn't feel too unstable. 

233
00:13:03,652 --> 00:13:06,889
So it's just been great. 
I've been able to do, like I 

234
00:13:06,889 --> 00:13:08,419
said, a long run. 
Midfoot's fine. 

235
00:13:08,859 --> 00:13:12,074
I will say, though, Regina, 
who's not a biomechanics expert,

236
00:13:12,074 --> 00:13:15,994
you know, that's not her career,
noticed when she was running 

237
00:13:15,994 --> 00:13:18,322
behind me going, that shoe looks
really unstable. 

238
00:13:18,322 --> 00:13:20,940
So it feels very stable. 
It is very soft. 

239
00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,436
So I think I'm probably moving 
around a decent amount in it. 

240
00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:25,260
But it felt great. 
And my arch doesn't hurt. 

241
00:13:25,479 --> 00:13:27,957
So I've been very impressed so 
far. 

242
00:13:27,957 --> 00:13:31,848
Very nice Italian shoe. 
And I got several comments on it

243
00:13:31,848 --> 00:13:34,653
where I wore it. 
I did not wear this in the 

244
00:13:34,653 --> 00:13:36,840
clinic, in the hospital, because
I don't want to ruin them. 

245
00:13:37,380 --> 00:13:40,726
But I switched my shoes out and 
then I wore these out the other 

246
00:13:40,726 --> 00:13:42,745
day after that. 
And a couple people were like, 

247
00:13:42,745 --> 00:13:44,640
wow, those are really nice. 
They do look nice. 

248
00:13:44,820 --> 00:13:47,252
I saw them getting a Deodor 
shipment tomorrow. 

249
00:13:47,252 --> 00:13:49,679
Maybe that's what's coming. 
That might be it. 

250
00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:53,988
The other shoe that I've been 
very impressed with, which I 

251
00:13:53,988 --> 00:13:56,280
didn't expect, is the Karhu 
Fusion 5. 

252
00:13:56,820 --> 00:14:00,824
And so, Karhu, we've kind of had
this like, we really like them. 

253
00:14:00,824 --> 00:14:03,280
We're always pulling for them. 
Great walking shoes. 

254
00:14:03,739 --> 00:14:06,728
Running. 
It's just been heavier, kind of 

255
00:14:06,728 --> 00:14:10,567
clunkier, smooth transition. 
Not clunky, but smooth, but just

256
00:14:10,567 --> 00:14:13,931
not responsive. 
The new foam that they are using

257
00:14:13,931 --> 00:14:16,659
is an ATPU foam, which I'm 
forgetting the name of. 

258
00:14:17,039 --> 00:14:19,614
Let's see if it says it on the 
bottom. 

259
00:14:19,614 --> 00:14:22,760
But they still have the Forkum 
technology, but it's not stiff. 

260
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,175
It acts very much to stabilize 
the foot in just such a nice 

261
00:14:26,175 --> 00:14:28,859
roll, but such a bounce, like a 
nice bounce to it. 

262
00:14:29,559 --> 00:14:31,980
They optimize this very well, 
where the roll and bounce work 

263
00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:35,472
very well together. 
It's under 10 ounces now, so I 

264
00:14:35,472 --> 00:14:39,476
can't say heavier shoe anymore. 
And the fit, it's like just 

265
00:14:39,476 --> 00:14:41,682
right. 
The midfoot is a little bit 

266
00:14:41,682 --> 00:14:44,284
snug, but the forefoot opens 
just enough with this kind of 

267
00:14:44,284 --> 00:14:47,300
engineered upper that it just 
disappears on your foot. 

268
00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,850
I really enjoyed this. 
And I thought, because my 

269
00:14:49,850 --> 00:14:52,387
Achilles is getting better, but 
still a little bit sensitive, 

270
00:14:52,387 --> 00:14:54,327
the 6mm drop is going to bother 
me. 

271
00:14:54,327 --> 00:14:56,758
Note for those that want a 
rocker shoe that the stack 

272
00:14:56,758 --> 00:15:00,229
height isn't too tall. 
It's 33mm in the heel. 

273
00:15:00,229 --> 00:15:05,565
It's actually been really good. 
So, Carhu, for bumping up this 

274
00:15:05,565 --> 00:15:08,955
midsole, good job. 
This shoe is where I think 

275
00:15:08,955 --> 00:15:11,633
they've been trying to be, and I
think they headed out of the 

276
00:15:11,633 --> 00:15:12,659
park. 
It's been really nice. 

277
00:15:13,179 --> 00:15:14,334
Full-length outsole, 
durability's really good. 

278
00:15:14,334 --> 00:15:18,660
I got about 30 miles in my pair.
Very, very, very nice shoe that,

279
00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:22,950
man, this is going to threaten a
lot of other daily trainers for 

280
00:15:22,950 --> 00:15:25,278
sure. 
Looks like that's got a pretty 

281
00:15:25,278 --> 00:15:27,539
wide sole flaring from rear to 
front. 

282
00:15:28,119 --> 00:15:30,559
It does. 
So it's definitely on the stable

283
00:15:30,559 --> 00:15:32,389
side without being full 
stability shoe. 

284
00:15:32,389 --> 00:15:35,134
I had no stability issues in it.
Decent sidewall. 

285
00:15:35,134 --> 00:15:38,489
The fulcrum, again, on both 
sides, almost acts like a very 

286
00:15:38,489 --> 00:15:41,228
subtle post without creating 
that pressure, just kind of 

287
00:15:41,228 --> 00:15:44,572
gently rolls you forward. 
It's not as extreme as the older

288
00:15:44,572 --> 00:15:47,916
versions, which I think is also 
because the midsole is softer. 

289
00:15:47,916 --> 00:15:51,564
The old ones felt like you're 
kind of like rolling over this 

290
00:15:51,564 --> 00:15:54,604
kind of like almost getting 
pushed too quickly forward and 

291
00:15:54,604 --> 00:15:58,729
kind of a little bit stiff. 
Smooth as butter. great so 

292
00:15:58,729 --> 00:16:01,744
really really really great 
improvement from carhu on that 

293
00:16:01,744 --> 00:16:04,737
that's really awesome other 
shoes i've got are ones that 

294
00:16:04,737 --> 00:16:07,751
we've already talked about um 
still getting miles on the sc 

295
00:16:07,751 --> 00:16:11,030
elite version six still liking 
it uh outsole is getting torn up

296
00:16:11,030 --> 00:16:14,959
which that's kind of how it goes
um that's been great i am still 

297
00:16:14,959 --> 00:16:18,989
getting miles on the owl clown 
boom on i can't talk on cloud 

298
00:16:18,989 --> 00:16:24,092
boom strike two super durable 
enjoying that but it's still 

299
00:16:24,092 --> 00:16:29,015
just feeling like it's not 
moving as quick as i would want 

300
00:16:29,015 --> 00:16:31,607
for the effort i would want i 
think people that want a 

301
00:16:31,607 --> 00:16:34,610
marathon shoe and want a softer 
on this is probably the softest 

302
00:16:34,610 --> 00:16:38,522
on i've ever put on my feet for 
those that want that great if 

303
00:16:38,522 --> 00:16:41,654
you love a super stiff heel and 
midfoot my feet still hurt every

304
00:16:41,654 --> 00:16:45,374
time i put these on and then it 
goes away as i start to run but 

305
00:16:45,374 --> 00:16:48,599
it just i think i don't know if 
it's a stiffness i just can't 

306
00:16:48,599 --> 00:16:52,011
get into a rhythm beyond doing 
like marathon and threshold 

307
00:16:52,011 --> 00:16:54,066
pace. 
Threshold work, great, right? 

308
00:16:54,066 --> 00:16:56,723
Just enough there. 
I don't need to go faster. 

309
00:16:56,723 --> 00:16:59,786
But as soon as I try to push it 
faster, it just doesn't move. 

310
00:16:59,786 --> 00:17:04,904
I am very curious if I can get 
my pans on the LS version, if 

311
00:17:04,904 --> 00:17:08,536
that's a little bit different. 
But yeah, I know we had a 

312
00:17:08,536 --> 00:17:10,819
conversation right before this. 
You're like, wow, this is like 

313
00:17:10,819 --> 00:17:11,959
the soft. 
It's so soft. 

314
00:17:12,089 --> 00:17:14,913
Yeah, that's definitely a shoe 
we agree on. 

315
00:17:14,913 --> 00:17:18,089
Yeah. 
Here at DOR, we try to get miles

316
00:17:18,089 --> 00:17:21,660
on all of the that we get. 
But of course, we don't run on 

317
00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:23,819
them if we feel like they're 
going to hurt us. 

318
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,190
So I was all laced up to go do a
workout in them. 

319
00:17:27,190 --> 00:17:30,094
And I started going down the 
driveway and I was like, these 

320
00:17:30,094 --> 00:17:32,811
are just way too soft. 
I don't want to ruin this 

321
00:17:32,811 --> 00:17:34,864
workout. 
So I turned around and put a 

322
00:17:34,864 --> 00:17:39,065
different pair of shoes on. 
So I need to give them a chance.

323
00:17:39,065 --> 00:17:43,256
But yes, without question, the 
softest on I've ever run in. 

324
00:17:43,256 --> 00:17:45,512
I loved the original CloudBoom 
Strike. 

325
00:17:45,512 --> 00:17:50,210
The CloudBoom Echo 3 is still 
one of my favorite racing shoes 

326
00:17:50,210 --> 00:17:54,301
except its durability wasn't 
great but those shoes are you 

327
00:17:54,301 --> 00:17:59,244
know eons stiffer than this 
cloud boom strike too so so that

328
00:17:59,244 --> 00:18:03,603
is something we disagree on 
where i agree with the softness 

329
00:18:03,603 --> 00:18:07,871
but the longitudinal bending 
stiffness oh my gosh it is so 

330
00:18:07,871 --> 00:18:12,069
stiff it's a weird thing to feel
where like i can feel the sole 

331
00:18:12,069 --> 00:18:15,060
compress but i also feel how 
rigid the plate is especially in

332
00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:19,020
the heel and the midfoot. 
I didn't notice that on my very 

333
00:18:19,020 --> 00:18:22,589
brief run. 
Which makes sense based on where

334
00:18:22,589 --> 00:18:24,934
you land. 
Oh, I have one more. 

335
00:18:24,934 --> 00:18:28,280
How could I forget? 
I've been so excited for this. 

336
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,420
The Hoka Stinson 8. 
And David and I have been 

337
00:18:32,420 --> 00:18:36,555
waiting for this for a very long
time because we really liked the

338
00:18:36,555 --> 00:18:39,027
original. 
It was just so, it was like 13 

339
00:18:39,027 --> 00:18:41,219
ounces or 14 ounces. 
It was so heavy. 

340
00:18:41,699 --> 00:18:45,503
This version has dropped two or 
three ounces off, so it's much 

341
00:18:45,503 --> 00:18:47,400
lighter, but it's also much 
softer. 

342
00:18:47,569 --> 00:18:50,570
So very different rides. 
Still got the H-frame, so those 

343
00:18:50,570 --> 00:18:53,622
people that need a little bit of
stability, this actually does, I

344
00:18:53,622 --> 00:18:55,400
mean, technically counts as a 
stability shoe. 

345
00:18:55,410 --> 00:18:58,980
It's got really good sidewalls. 
The H-frame is what Hoka uses 

346
00:18:58,980 --> 00:19:02,823
for stability, but it's not 
nearly as rigid or stable and 

347
00:19:02,823 --> 00:19:05,094
certainly not as heavy. 
So much more nimble. 

348
00:19:05,094 --> 00:19:06,300
Although that's probably not the
term. 

349
00:19:06,380 --> 00:19:10,430
It's still like 11 ounces, but 
much better transition, much 

350
00:19:10,430 --> 00:19:12,859
lighter on foot. 
Traction's still great. 

351
00:19:12,930 --> 00:19:16,214
I've done some trail runs and, 
of course, pushing the stroller.

352
00:19:16,214 --> 00:19:18,300
And yeah, just a very different 
shoe. 

353
00:19:18,689 --> 00:19:22,085
It is now, for those that really
love the original version 7, 

354
00:19:22,085 --> 00:19:26,114
because 7, it was like the 
widest toe box ever on a Hoka 

355
00:19:26,114 --> 00:19:27,334
shoe. 
It's snugged down. 

356
00:19:27,334 --> 00:19:30,079
It's not super narrow, but the 
volume has decreased. 

357
00:19:30,250 --> 00:19:33,418
So if you're part of the wide 
foot fam, know that there is 

358
00:19:33,418 --> 00:19:35,119
less room compared to the 
previous version. 

359
00:19:35,199 --> 00:19:38,645
It's still got a decent amount. 
Like I can wiggle my toes, but 

360
00:19:38,645 --> 00:19:40,500
the volume changes that a little
bit. 

361
00:19:40,569 --> 00:19:43,468
Not a little bit, quite a bit. 
So make sure you try before you 

362
00:19:43,468 --> 00:19:46,153
buy when it comes out because 
it's a very different shoe than 

363
00:19:46,153 --> 00:19:50,464
version 7. 
I feel like Hoka has had some 

364
00:19:50,464 --> 00:19:53,965
innovative shoes this year, and 
we're going to talk about one of

365
00:19:53,965 --> 00:19:57,516
them in a little bit. 
But, you know, I say frequently 

366
00:19:57,516 --> 00:20:01,548
that I would probably love most 
Hoka shoes if they didn't have 

367
00:20:01,548 --> 00:20:04,904
the horrible sidewalls in the 
midfoot that extend into the 

368
00:20:04,904 --> 00:20:08,080
forefoot. 
But they finally fixed that with

369
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,600
one shoe. 
But we'll get to that. 

370
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:12,760
Yeah, I actually missed that. 
What? 

371
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,561
It's fine. 
The sidewalls. 

372
00:20:14,561 --> 00:20:17,147
Oh, you want? 
Oh, of course. 

373
00:20:17,147 --> 00:20:19,302
Yeah. 
Of course I do. 

374
00:20:19,302 --> 00:20:22,319
Anyway, disagreement started 
already, which is good. 

375
00:20:22,719 --> 00:20:24,615
All right. 
So our infratesting is sponsored

376
00:20:24,615 --> 00:20:27,508
by Scratch Labs, who's been a 
nutrition company we have loved 

377
00:20:27,508 --> 00:20:30,664
for a long time, even before 
they were nice enough to reach 

378
00:20:30,664 --> 00:20:34,179
out, use them a ton. 
Man, with the temperatures 

379
00:20:34,179 --> 00:20:38,469
coming up in Oregon and the last
week, I have spent pretty much 

380
00:20:38,469 --> 00:20:41,769
every run on the treadmill 
because we've had some massive 

381
00:20:41,769 --> 00:20:45,388
fires and now have another one, 
the grasshopper fire, which was 

382
00:20:45,388 --> 00:20:48,950
sending massive amounts of smoke
into the area. luckily the winds

383
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:52,190
have changed that but using the 
scratch labs is in my bottle 

384
00:20:52,190 --> 00:20:55,359
almost every run just because 
hydration and staying on top of 

385
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,348
stuff especially running inside 
the treadmill i sweat a lot they

386
00:20:58,348 --> 00:21:02,454
are really really good so if you
want to try some you can get 20 

387
00:21:02,454 --> 00:21:05,282
off your first order with the 
code doctors of running all in 

388
00:21:05,282 --> 00:21:07,991
capital which i would love to 
use again but of course i have 

389
00:21:07,991 --> 00:21:12,470
blown through that so it is what
it is but yeah anyway we are 

390
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:16,125
going to do a buy or sell 
episode which we're hoping 

391
00:21:16,125 --> 00:21:19,240
create some, like I said, some 
arguments. 

392
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,795
But Andrea, you ready to go? 
I'm ready. 

393
00:21:22,795 --> 00:21:24,838
Okay, great. 
So let's start with the first 

394
00:21:24,838 --> 00:21:26,412
one. 
And for those who don't know and

395
00:21:26,412 --> 00:21:29,664
haven't listened before, the buy
or sell is where we put up a 

396
00:21:29,664 --> 00:21:32,216
question or a concept. 
And we either say buy, we agree 

397
00:21:32,216 --> 00:21:35,340
with it, or sell, we don't. 
And we're going to go between 

398
00:21:35,340 --> 00:21:37,640
the two of us. 
We have not discussed what our 

399
00:21:37,739 --> 00:21:40,423
answers are at all, because as 
usual, we put this together 

400
00:21:40,423 --> 00:21:44,411
right beforehand and then just 
flying on the seat of our pants 

401
00:21:44,411 --> 00:21:48,727
because that's how we do best 
but we're hoping we can 

402
00:21:48,727 --> 00:21:52,770
appropriately defend our answers
and maybe argue a little bit i'm

403
00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:57,993
sure we will let's see yes oh 
yeah so buy or sell the sc elite

404
00:21:57,993 --> 00:22:02,959
version 6 is the best super shoe
new balance has released yet by 

405
00:22:04,539 --> 00:22:09,759
okay why all right so you think 
about all the versions of the sc

406
00:22:09,759 --> 00:22:13,957
elite before this one the Elite 
3 would have been my next 

407
00:22:13,957 --> 00:22:16,930
favorite. 
And I think I got over 250 miles

408
00:22:16,930 --> 00:22:20,550
on that shoe, but I just used it
for training. 

409
00:22:20,550 --> 00:22:26,235
It didn't feel quite snappy 
enough to use in a race, but it 

410
00:22:26,235 --> 00:22:29,574
was comfortable, fast, you know,
bouncy, firm. 

411
00:22:29,574 --> 00:22:33,403
I used it for everything, 
threshold, marathon, pace 

412
00:22:33,403 --> 00:22:37,660
workouts, long runs, but it just
wasn't like top tier enough. 

413
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:44,199
The four was a big change in fit
and midsole, and I didn't like 

414
00:22:44,199 --> 00:22:48,089
it at all. 
The five was comfortable, but it

415
00:22:48,089 --> 00:22:52,339
felt like a training shoe to me 
because Matt's got it here. 

416
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:57,708
The forefoot rocker was really 
muted, and the midsole just did 

417
00:22:57,708 --> 00:23:01,707
not feel very lively. 
So I could use it comfortably 

418
00:23:01,707 --> 00:23:04,974
for long runs and even like 
marathon pace runs, but it 

419
00:23:04,974 --> 00:23:08,894
didn't do anything for me. 
You know, I certainly wouldn't 

420
00:23:08,894 --> 00:23:13,490
have chosen it for a race where 
I want to go fast. 

421
00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:18,733
But version 6 fits awesome. 
Nice wide toe box without being 

422
00:23:18,733 --> 00:23:21,523
sloppy. 
And the midsole is exactly what 

423
00:23:21,523 --> 00:23:24,534
I like. 
It is mildly compliant, highly 

424
00:23:24,534 --> 00:23:27,467
resilient. 
Shoe feels super light on foot. 

425
00:23:27,467 --> 00:23:30,819
I think the plate design is 
super interesting. 

426
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,268
It's hard to show, but you can 
see how the plate doesn't quite 

427
00:23:35,268 --> 00:23:38,020
come in contact with the upper 
part of the midsole. 

428
00:23:38,540 --> 00:23:42,344
And I suspect that might be part
of the reason why I like the 

429
00:23:42,344 --> 00:23:45,867
feel of it is just how the plate
interacts with both the midsole 

430
00:23:45,867 --> 00:23:50,434
and my foot. 
But this shoe checks all the 

431
00:23:50,434 --> 00:23:53,183
boxes. 
Light, bouncy, not too soft, 

432
00:23:53,183 --> 00:23:56,960
comfortable fit. 
I've used it for everything from

433
00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:00,650
like 5k pace up to just an easy 
run. 

434
00:24:00,650 --> 00:24:04,339
And there's nothing I didn't 
really like about it. 

435
00:24:04,839 --> 00:24:07,375
So is it my favorite super shoe?
No. 

436
00:24:07,375 --> 00:24:11,487
And would I choose it out of 
every other shoe I've got to 

437
00:24:11,487 --> 00:24:14,543
race in? 
No, but it's definitely for me 

438
00:24:14,543 --> 00:24:17,295
the best New Balance super shoe 
out there. 

439
00:24:17,295 --> 00:24:20,040
I should mention the Pacer. 
Pacer version 2. 

440
00:24:21,479 --> 00:24:26,560
If only they had made the heel 
not a weapon of torture. 

441
00:24:27,500 --> 00:24:32,876
Like the large blood stain on 
the heel of both of my SC Pacer 

442
00:24:32,876 --> 00:24:37,370
2 shoes was a little disturbing.
I did really like the midsole 

443
00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:41,990
and the ride of that shoe. 
But bleeding that much is not 

444
00:24:41,990 --> 00:24:43,915
recommended for your racing 
shoes. 

445
00:24:43,915 --> 00:24:48,140
So, yep, SC Elite 6 is my 
favorite in your balance. 

446
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,311
What about you? 
So I'm going to say buy, but 

447
00:24:52,311 --> 00:24:55,863
with a caveat, because to be 
honest with you, the SC Elite 

448
00:24:55,863 --> 00:24:58,819
version 6 does not feel like an 
evolution of E5. 

449
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,333
They feel like two completely 
different concepts. 

450
00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:03,300
That's true. 
It's not just an upgrade. 

451
00:25:03,459 --> 00:25:07,683
It feels like, honestly, the 
Pacer, I feel like the SC Elite 

452
00:25:07,683 --> 00:25:10,496
version 6 is an evolution of the
Pacer. 

453
00:25:10,496 --> 00:25:12,545
I agree with that. 
Yeah. 

454
00:25:12,545 --> 00:25:17,389
And I feel like the Rebel, the 
SC Rebel, is an evolution of the

455
00:25:17,389 --> 00:25:22,091
SC Elite version 5. 
Oh, no. really this is yes 

456
00:25:22,091 --> 00:25:25,306
because the sc elite all right 
so this is we're gonna argue so 

457
00:25:25,306 --> 00:25:29,696
the s the rebel i feel like is 
more that training and the 

458
00:25:29,696 --> 00:25:33,561
weights aren't that different to
be fair although that's now a 

459
00:25:33,561 --> 00:25:37,611
formula drop it doesn't feel 
like that the rebel the sc rebel

460
00:25:37,611 --> 00:25:41,113
feels like it took the sc elite 
five and then like doubled down 

461
00:25:41,113 --> 00:25:44,360
on it where it's like a little 
it's a little bouncier i'll give

462
00:25:44,360 --> 00:25:48,260
that it's not the fastest shoe 
out there and it's more kind of 

463
00:25:48,260 --> 00:25:51,817
like that long run training shoe
S thing, but I wouldn't race in 

464
00:25:51,817 --> 00:25:54,175
this. 
But I think a lot of people who 

465
00:25:54,175 --> 00:25:57,580
like the SC Elite version 5 for 
that long run marathon type 

466
00:25:57,580 --> 00:26:00,831
pace, I think whenever they run 
out of buying the SC Elite 

467
00:26:00,831 --> 00:26:02,767
version 5 on sale, which 
somebody, by the way, on YouTube

468
00:26:02,767 --> 00:26:04,638
commented, they got a pair for 
90 bucks. 

469
00:26:04,638 --> 00:26:07,239
That's a good price. 
That is a great deal. 

470
00:26:07,239 --> 00:26:10,154
That's awesome. 
But whenever those run out, the 

471
00:26:10,154 --> 00:26:14,755
SC Elite, sorry, SC Rebel, I 
feel like is that kind of more 

472
00:26:14,755 --> 00:26:17,579
training evolution. 
But that's, what do you think? 

473
00:26:17,810 --> 00:26:22,892
Okay, I did one run in the SE 
Rebel, and I loved how the 

474
00:26:22,892 --> 00:26:27,248
midsole and geometry felt, but 
the fit was too short, and both 

475
00:26:27,248 --> 00:26:31,850
of my big toenails got bruised. 
So Nathan reached out to New 

476
00:26:31,850 --> 00:26:36,725
Balance to see if I could get a 
half size up, and to this date, 

477
00:26:36,725 --> 00:26:40,896
I have not. 
But if that shoe fit me, the SE 

478
00:26:40,896 --> 00:26:44,438
Rebel, I think it would be one 
of my favorite performance 

479
00:26:44,438 --> 00:26:47,266
trainers. 
But see, and that's my point, 

480
00:26:47,266 --> 00:26:50,060
though. 
I feel like this is more of a 

481
00:26:50,060 --> 00:26:53,280
performance trainer. 
And that's a good thing because 

482
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,180
it really I feel like it was a 
very accessible. 

483
00:26:56,180 --> 00:26:58,915
I agree with that. 
Which not the fastest. 

484
00:26:58,915 --> 00:27:02,596
But the geometry and the midsole
feel are totally different 

485
00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:05,540
between the Elite 5 and the SE 
Rebel. 

486
00:27:06,219 --> 00:27:08,867
So I feel like they're closer 
than this. 

487
00:27:08,867 --> 00:27:12,177
That's true. 
Yeah, I feel like the SE Elite 5

488
00:27:12,177 --> 00:27:16,383
was just kind of a dud. 
Like, if you wanted a 

489
00:27:16,383 --> 00:27:19,463
non-aggressive super shoe, which
lots of people do, that's what 

490
00:27:19,463 --> 00:27:22,538
it was. 
But the Rebel has such a snappy 

491
00:27:22,538 --> 00:27:26,976
midsole that to say that it's an
evolution of the SC Elite 5 is 

492
00:27:26,976 --> 00:27:31,403
like to say that a Porsche is an
evolution of a Ford Taurus, you 

493
00:27:31,403 --> 00:27:32,837
know? 
It's not. 

494
00:27:32,837 --> 00:27:35,942
Yeah, but the SC Elite version 5
is not a Ford Taurus. 

495
00:27:35,942 --> 00:27:38,780
It's a good shoe. 
For me, it was a Ford Taurus. 

496
00:27:39,780 --> 00:27:43,116
fine but yeah but you know it's 
functional gets like you know 

497
00:27:43,116 --> 00:27:47,504
you couldn't run the fastest in 
it but a lot of people were very

498
00:27:47,504 --> 00:27:51,488
very very popular whereas the 
SLE version 6 is so much more 

499
00:27:51,488 --> 00:27:54,923
aggressive and I know you and 
David have agreed like oh this 

500
00:27:54,923 --> 00:27:58,727
is a great long distance shoe I 
don't I could not use this for 

501
00:27:58,727 --> 00:28:01,147
long distance it's just there's 
not enough the midsole 

502
00:28:01,147 --> 00:28:04,920
compressor so it's bouncy I I 
think the next time I do a 5k 

503
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,179
this is probably what I'm going 
to do it in just to get to get a

504
00:28:08,199 --> 00:28:10,851
race on it but it's that 
responsive for me where i want 

505
00:28:10,851 --> 00:28:14,487
to see what it does at those 
distances over a half to full 

506
00:28:14,487 --> 00:28:18,359
marathon it's just too 
aggressive for me i think so not

507
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,977
that i don't appreciate it but 
it's just it's just gonna fit a 

508
00:28:22,977 --> 00:28:26,397
very different runner than 
version five oh that's true like

509
00:28:26,397 --> 00:28:31,979
yeah that runner may when they 
run out of pairs the sc rebel is

510
00:28:31,979 --> 00:28:35,650
a better evolution than going 
just that's probably true yeah 

511
00:28:35,650 --> 00:28:40,460
but i mean the the midsole feel 
between the five and the sc 

512
00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:45,431
rebel is so different so if 
somebody you know the five there

513
00:28:45,431 --> 00:28:50,407
the five doesn't really feel 
like it has a significant amount

514
00:28:50,407 --> 00:28:56,590
of energy return the rebel at 
least has some so for people who

515
00:28:56,590 --> 00:29:01,123
for whatever reason do not do 
well with very responsive foams 

516
00:29:01,123 --> 00:29:07,240
the elite five worked great for 
them but the Rebel is going to 

517
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,640
be moderately bouncy. 
That's fair. 

518
00:29:11,140 --> 00:29:14,600
So, like, people who have hip 
stability issues probably would 

519
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:19,380
have been fine in the Elite 
Five, but may need to tread 

520
00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:24,281
lightly in the SC Rebel. 
Almost don't, I mean, maybe a 

521
00:29:24,281 --> 00:29:27,107
little bit, but I think that 
this wide, it's pretty stable. 

522
00:29:27,107 --> 00:29:28,789
That's true. 
Like, it's one of the more, 

523
00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:31,064
like, the wide, like, if you can
see for those people that are 

524
00:29:31,064 --> 00:29:33,826
watching, like very wide 
midsole, very wide cutout in the

525
00:29:33,826 --> 00:29:35,928
middle. 
So, and the way it expands, we 

526
00:29:35,928 --> 00:29:39,720
are still, by the way, learning.
I've talked a little bit to a 

527
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,880
couple of companies about why 
they're doing certain cutouts 

528
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:44,160
and stuff like that. 
They're very intentional because

529
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,880
where you put cutouts, even I 
know based on this little gap 

530
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,822
right here, that affects how 
shoes transition and the midsole

531
00:29:50,822 --> 00:29:53,280
compresses and it can totally 
change how things feel. 

532
00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:56,300
So they're being intentional 
with that. 

533
00:29:56,300 --> 00:30:01,100
But yeah, this really wide gap 
and the wide width, It's very 

534
00:30:01,100 --> 00:30:02,998
stable. 
So I almost wouldn't worry as 

535
00:30:02,998 --> 00:30:05,428
much, but you are right. 
For those that are really 

536
00:30:05,428 --> 00:30:08,991
sensitive to those softer shoes.
But the plate makes it not as 

537
00:30:08,991 --> 00:30:09,579
soft. 
That's true. 

538
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,048
No, I don't consider the Rebel 
definitely didn't feel soft, but

539
00:30:13,048 --> 00:30:18,460
it felt more resilient. 
The SE Elite 5 felt like it had 

540
00:30:18,460 --> 00:30:22,420
very little resilience and the 
SE Rebel is moderately 

541
00:30:22,420 --> 00:30:23,300
resilient. 
Yeah. 

542
00:30:23,300 --> 00:30:25,018
That's fair. 
All right. 

543
00:30:25,018 --> 00:30:27,079
We got off to a little good 
start there. 

544
00:30:27,079 --> 00:30:27,537
Great. 
Okay. 

545
00:30:27,537 --> 00:30:31,347
So we are both buys on it. 
I just have some buys with 

546
00:30:31,347 --> 00:30:33,895
reservation. 
You have some buys with buts. 

547
00:30:33,895 --> 00:30:34,623
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

548
00:30:34,623 --> 00:30:36,079
All right. 
Next one. 

549
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:40,591
The Clifton Pro is the best 
Clifton. 

550
00:30:40,591 --> 00:30:43,043
Buy or sell? 
Buy. 

551
00:30:43,043 --> 00:30:46,719
Ooh. 
Why do you say that? 

552
00:30:46,719 --> 00:30:52,419
Because I haven't been able to 
run in any Clifton that I've 

553
00:30:52,419 --> 00:30:56,219
ever tried. 
Well, that was an easy answer. 

554
00:30:56,540 --> 00:30:59,498
Because of the sidewalls, I 
just... 

555
00:30:59,498 --> 00:31:03,440
That's right. 
Poka, for those who don't know, 

556
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:08,558
puts sidewalls in the midfoot. 
And depending on the shoe, they 

557
00:31:08,558 --> 00:31:10,959
extend into the forefoot on both
sides. 

558
00:31:11,739 --> 00:31:16,160
And I have very sensitive MTPs, 
basically the ball of the foot. 

559
00:31:16,719 --> 00:31:20,387
So if anything is pushing on the
inside of the ball of my foot or

560
00:31:20,387 --> 00:31:22,339
the outside, I'm going to hate 
the shoe. 

561
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:25,660
So every Clifton I've tested has
that. 

562
00:31:26,060 --> 00:31:30,200
And actually, basically, if I 
have not liked a Hoka shoe, it's

563
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,650
usually because of how the 
sidewalls irritate the ball of 

564
00:31:33,650 --> 00:31:36,575
my foot. 
But the Clifton Pro has 

565
00:31:36,575 --> 00:31:40,260
sidewalls in the midfoot, but 
they stop just soon enough that 

566
00:31:40,260 --> 00:31:45,476
they do not bother me at all. 
And I happen to really like the 

567
00:31:45,476 --> 00:31:48,420
foam that they use, the 
supercritical EVA ProGlide Plus.

568
00:31:49,339 --> 00:31:52,390
It's just, it's a nice shoe. 
It's not soft. 

569
00:31:52,390 --> 00:31:54,760
It's protective. 
It's great for easy runs. 

570
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,264
Um, so, you know, easy answer 
for me because I didn't like any

571
00:31:59,264 --> 00:32:05,709
Clifton I've tested, but even, I
suspect even if I had liked some

572
00:32:05,709 --> 00:32:08,719
Clifton's, just knowing that 
historically Clifton's are 

573
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:15,457
softer, the Clifton Pro probably
still would be my top pick. 

574
00:32:15,457 --> 00:32:18,979
Would that be accurate about 
Clifton's? 

575
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,555
Well, in terms of the midsole 
softness in Clifton's. 

576
00:32:23,555 --> 00:32:27,900
It really depends. 
Version 10, I felt like a brick.

577
00:32:28,020 --> 00:32:31,128
It felt very stiff and it really
bothered me versus version 11. 

578
00:32:31,128 --> 00:32:33,199
Definitely got back to that a 
little bit. 

579
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,885
So, yeah, for the most part, 
there has been some exceptions, 

580
00:32:36,885 --> 00:32:40,119
though, that, yeah, it tends to 
be a little bit softer. 

581
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:44,628
But I'm going to do sell. 
Not that I don't like this shoe.

582
00:32:44,628 --> 00:32:47,180
I do like this shoe for a couple
of reasons. 

583
00:32:47,500 --> 00:32:51,400
One, it is by far the most, one 
of the more durable Hoka's that 

584
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,180
I have ever run in. certainly 
the most durable Clifton. 

585
00:32:55,099 --> 00:32:58,033
I do appreciate the increased 
responsiveness, which is nice. 

586
00:32:58,033 --> 00:33:02,313
Do I think we need, what I 
really would have hoped is that 

587
00:33:02,313 --> 00:33:05,275
they would have put a 
supercritical EVA in the inline 

588
00:33:05,275 --> 00:33:08,666
Clifton and then use something a
little more fancy if you're 

589
00:33:08,666 --> 00:33:10,780
going to call it a pro. 
Yes. 

590
00:33:10,780 --> 00:33:13,800
But my hesitation is, this 
doesn't feel like a Clifton. 

591
00:33:15,239 --> 00:33:18,647
It feels like a different shoe. 
And so I'm semantics here and 

592
00:33:18,647 --> 00:33:22,266
I'm just looking to argue, but 
like, it's just not, It's not a 

593
00:33:22,266 --> 00:33:23,376
Clifton. 
Yeah, I get it. 

594
00:33:23,376 --> 00:33:25,596
I didn't like any Clifton's, but
I like this shoe. 

595
00:33:25,596 --> 00:33:28,238
That's fair. 
So, yeah, I don't feel like it's

596
00:33:28,238 --> 00:33:30,866
a Clifton, so it can't be the 
best if it doesn't like... 

597
00:33:30,866 --> 00:33:32,664
I mean, yeah, I like it. 
It's great. 

598
00:33:32,664 --> 00:33:34,968
It's one of the better Hoka 
shoes that I've gotten to run 

599
00:33:34,968 --> 00:33:36,119
in. 
It's been really, really great. 

600
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,680
Fortunately, you know, it's wide
enough that the lack of 

601
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:42,640
mid-foot, four-foot side falls 
doesn't bother me. 

602
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,059
It's been fine. 
I've done a ton of runs in this 

603
00:33:45,059 --> 00:33:46,724
stuff. 
It's not a shoe I would choose 

604
00:33:46,724 --> 00:33:48,807
for workouts. 
It's been really nice for easy 

605
00:33:48,807 --> 00:33:51,458
runs, which again, which I'm 
like, why are you calling this 

606
00:33:51,458 --> 00:33:54,274
pro? 
I somewhat get it, but I'm also 

607
00:33:54,274 --> 00:33:56,903
like, just it's going to be 
confusing and this should have 

608
00:33:56,903 --> 00:34:00,429
been a different shoe. 
So that's why I'm a sell only 

609
00:34:00,429 --> 00:34:04,239
because for what the Clifton 
normally is, which is a really 

610
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,292
versatile, like a lot of people 
use it for running, far more 

611
00:34:08,292 --> 00:34:10,699
people use it for walking, 
standing, daily use. 

612
00:34:10,820 --> 00:34:13,317
And I've said this a billion 
times on this podcast, most 

613
00:34:13,317 --> 00:34:15,835
people in the United States, and
I can't speak for other 

614
00:34:15,835 --> 00:34:17,425
countries. 
Most people buy running shoes to

615
00:34:17,425 --> 00:34:20,012
walk in and stand in. 
That's just what the market is. 

616
00:34:20,012 --> 00:34:23,641
It is what it is. 
So from that regard of that 

617
00:34:23,641 --> 00:34:26,760
versatility, no, because it 
doesn't feel like a Clifton. 

618
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,800
And some would be like, well, 
it's a Clifton Pro. 

619
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:31,974
So but that's not. 
So I'm a sell. 

620
00:34:31,974 --> 00:34:35,420
Not that I don't like it. 
I really do like it just because

621
00:34:35,420 --> 00:34:38,607
that's my point. 
Just as a side note, I think 

622
00:34:38,607 --> 00:34:42,138
this is one of the best outsole 
designs Hoka has used. 

623
00:34:42,138 --> 00:34:43,418
Oh, by far. 
Yes. 

624
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,822
Because, you know, this is not a
lot of rubber, but it's enough 

625
00:34:47,822 --> 00:34:51,632
that you're not going to wear 
out any like one part of the 

626
00:34:51,632 --> 00:34:55,514
exposed midsole. 
I think this will make the 

627
00:34:55,514 --> 00:35:00,035
Clifton Pro the most durable 
outsole that Hoka has made. 

628
00:35:00,035 --> 00:35:02,751
By far. 
And I will also say the midsole,

629
00:35:02,751 --> 00:35:05,311
and this is again the 
supercritical EVA, it is holding

630
00:35:05,311 --> 00:35:08,379
up a heck of a lot better than 
their traditional EVA midsole. 

631
00:35:08,639 --> 00:35:11,319
So, yes. 
I mean, if it was theoretically 

632
00:35:11,319 --> 00:35:13,659
the Clifton, I would absolutely 
say yes. 

633
00:35:13,899 --> 00:35:17,607
But I don't feel like it's a 
Clifton, so that's why I sell on

634
00:35:17,607 --> 00:35:18,399
this. 
All right. 

635
00:35:19,060 --> 00:35:22,164
Oh, I'm interested to see this 
next question. 

636
00:35:22,164 --> 00:35:25,268
Okay. 
So, buy or sell, the Spectre 3 

637
00:35:25,268 --> 00:35:29,877
is Topo's best shoe. 
Spectre 3 and the Elite here. 

638
00:35:29,877 --> 00:35:33,095
So, I've got to grab the right 
one. 

639
00:35:33,095 --> 00:35:35,105
So, I say sell. 
Okay. 

640
00:35:35,105 --> 00:35:37,919
All right. 
I'm a big Topo fan. 

641
00:35:38,179 --> 00:35:42,033
I love a lot of their shoes. 
I liked the Spectre 3. 

642
00:35:42,033 --> 00:35:43,959
It's the best Spectre they've 
made. 

643
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,272
The midsole is the best midsole 
they've used. 

644
00:35:48,272 --> 00:35:51,020
It's bouncy. 
The Revhome is ATPU. 

645
00:35:51,820 --> 00:35:55,109
It's not soft, but it just has 
the right amount of compliance, 

646
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:59,417
but a lot of bounce. 
But because it's so rockered, 

647
00:35:59,417 --> 00:36:04,349
like this is such an early 
rocker with such a big toe 

648
00:36:04,349 --> 00:36:07,899
spring, it really limits the 
pace that I can use it at. 

649
00:36:08,020 --> 00:36:11,800
Like, it's fine for easy runs, 
but even if I tried to pick up, 

650
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,036
like, faster than marathon pace 
because of where I land, I just 

651
00:36:15,036 --> 00:36:18,264
felt like as soon as I landed, 
I'm getting slammed off the 

652
00:36:18,264 --> 00:36:22,403
front of the shoe. 
So, this is a great easy run 

653
00:36:22,403 --> 00:36:24,159
shoe. 
I've really enjoyed it. 

654
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,748
But Topo makes other shoes that 
I have bought over and over 

655
00:36:28,748 --> 00:36:31,699
again and have thousands of 
collective miles on. 

656
00:36:32,139 --> 00:36:36,232
For example, the Cyclone 2 and 
3, which if I think about it, I 

657
00:36:36,232 --> 00:36:40,028
do have over a thousand miles on
all of the pairs that I've 

658
00:36:40,028 --> 00:36:43,211
owned. 
So the Cyclone 2 and 3 are 

659
00:36:43,211 --> 00:36:46,647
basically the same shoe, except 
they change the upper a little 

660
00:36:46,647 --> 00:36:50,331
bit. 
For those who don't know what it

661
00:36:50,331 --> 00:36:54,236
is, it's lower stack. 
Off the top of my head, I think 

662
00:36:54,236 --> 00:36:57,195
it's like 32 in the heel and 27 
in the forefoot. 

663
00:36:57,195 --> 00:37:02,520
It's a five mil drop. 
It's got Piba foam, no plate, 

664
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,459
and I have used it for hundreds 
of workouts, easy runs. 

665
00:37:08,969 --> 00:37:12,379
I think the longest run I've 
done in it was 16. 

666
00:37:12,379 --> 00:37:14,853
That's impressive. 
Yeah, that was pushing it, but 

667
00:37:14,853 --> 00:37:19,822
it was fine. 
But it is, if you like lower 

668
00:37:19,822 --> 00:37:24,945
stack, somewhat flexible shoes 
to do fast workouts in, like for

669
00:37:24,945 --> 00:37:30,060
me, the Cyclone 2 slash 3 is the
best shoe ever. 

670
00:37:30,419 --> 00:37:35,699
So the Spectre 3, while it's a 
great shoe, simply does not 

671
00:37:35,699 --> 00:37:43,016
compete with the Cyclone. 
I am also a sell, but for a 

672
00:37:43,016 --> 00:37:46,777
different reason and a different
shoe, actually, where I was very

673
00:37:46,777 --> 00:37:51,210
impressed with the Spectre 3, 
but I also was kind of put off 

674
00:37:51,210 --> 00:37:54,620
by how insane the forefoot 
rocker and toe spring was. 

675
00:37:54,709 --> 00:37:57,979
It was just different than what 
I was hoping for from Topo. 

676
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,279
And it's going to work well for 
those that want that really nice

677
00:38:00,279 --> 00:38:02,570
rocker right in the front. 
I just felt like there was a 

678
00:38:02,570 --> 00:38:06,380
little bit too much. again for 
how how much of a rocker here i 

679
00:38:06,380 --> 00:38:09,432
would want more structure in 
this because it just feels a 

680
00:38:09,432 --> 00:38:12,721
little bit odd having this tall 
the stack height this soft of a 

681
00:38:12,721 --> 00:38:15,569
foam and this much flexibility i
would have changed the geometry 

682
00:38:15,569 --> 00:38:18,229
to not have as massive a 
forefoot because again a 

683
00:38:18,229 --> 00:38:21,383
forefoot rocker is supposed to 
replace the natural forefoot 

684
00:38:21,383 --> 00:38:25,699
rock the mtp joint motion in the
foot so to have this massive 

685
00:38:25,699 --> 00:38:29,066
rocker and have it be flexible 
just it kind of feels a little 

686
00:38:29,066 --> 00:38:33,557
bit weird to me so i just wanted
something that would have a 

687
00:38:33,557 --> 00:38:38,863
little more structure like this 
yeah so for me the spectre elite

688
00:38:38,863 --> 00:38:42,739
is topo's best shoe is it 
perfect no but is it fantastic 

689
00:38:42,739 --> 00:38:46,234
yes i love this shoe i'm getting
tons i'm getting close to 100 

690
00:38:46,234 --> 00:38:48,650
miles in this thing i need to 
back off if i want to use it for

691
00:38:48,650 --> 00:38:53,584
races but it's yeah this i think
is their best shoe from a 

692
00:38:53,584 --> 00:38:56,636
performance standpoint but like 
andrea mentioned there if there 

693
00:38:56,636 --> 00:38:59,926
are other great shoes for 
different reasons they we're big

694
00:38:59,926 --> 00:39:03,693
topo fans they do a lot of 
really great stuff but i think 

695
00:39:03,693 --> 00:39:07,243
the spectra elite because a we 
weren't expecting it b we said i

696
00:39:07,243 --> 00:39:09,395
know we said this without we 
said on the podcast they're 

697
00:39:09,395 --> 00:39:12,963
never going to do this and then 
like a week later like hey we're

698
00:39:12,963 --> 00:39:16,671
doing this don't say anything 
yet and like oh right but it's 

699
00:39:16,671 --> 00:39:21,548
fits the atp the rev foam plus 
the plate it the the four foot 

700
00:39:21,548 --> 00:39:26,078
the four foot width it is just 
such a great shoe so i'm a sell 

701
00:39:26,078 --> 00:39:29,108
because i think spectra elite is
their best actually and not just

702
00:39:29,108 --> 00:39:32,000
because it's not just because 
it's their super shoe but i 

703
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,259
think a lot of things are so 
well executed and create 

704
00:39:34,259 --> 00:39:37,626
something so unique on the 
market that it and it just has a

705
00:39:37,626 --> 00:39:40,700
lexar structure that worked well
for me so i would agree with 

706
00:39:40,700 --> 00:39:43,580
that that's why i'm a solid 
spectra elite is better than the

707
00:39:43,580 --> 00:39:48,224
spectra three as well um this is
a real super shoe i would 

708
00:39:48,224 --> 00:39:52,107
seriously consider wearing it 
for a marathon if i was racing 

709
00:39:52,107 --> 00:39:56,115
that distance like Topo Topo 
made a real top tier racing shoe

710
00:39:56,115 --> 00:40:00,577
here this is like the surprise 
of the year for me it is 

711
00:40:00,577 --> 00:40:04,345
absolutely yes I've got to say 
if I was ranking Topo's best 

712
00:40:04,345 --> 00:40:08,855
shoes which no one asked me but 
I'm gonna do it anyway uh the 

713
00:40:08,855 --> 00:40:12,788
Cyclone would be number one I'd 
say Spectre Elite would be 

714
00:40:12,788 --> 00:40:17,874
number two Atmos would be number
three both the original Atmos 

715
00:40:17,874 --> 00:40:23,656
and version two because they're 
pretty much the same shoe too. 

716
00:40:23,656 --> 00:40:29,668
And then I would put Spectre 3. 
Oh, I really like. 

717
00:40:29,668 --> 00:40:30,760
Yeah. 
Flylight. 

718
00:40:32,220 --> 00:40:34,904
We're not saying the Spectre 3 
is not a good shoe. 

719
00:40:34,904 --> 00:40:37,577
It's a great shoe. 
And it was very surprising to be

720
00:40:37,577 --> 00:40:39,772
like, dang, you guys are putting
new TPU stuff. 

721
00:40:39,772 --> 00:40:41,852
This is great. 
I just think, and I think we 

722
00:40:41,852 --> 00:40:45,442
agreed, it just needs a little 
more structure with the design 

723
00:40:45,442 --> 00:40:49,112
of the forefoot, personally. 
If this was stiffer, yes. that 

724
00:40:49,112 --> 00:40:54,304
heel is so much better than 
version two that was awful but 

725
00:40:54,304 --> 00:40:59,290
sorry we were yeah you and i 
both like ripped that shoe a new

726
00:40:59,290 --> 00:41:02,605
one i also literally ripped it a
new one because i ripped the 

727
00:41:02,605 --> 00:41:05,436
outsole off like a couple miles 
in because it was just getting 

728
00:41:05,436 --> 00:41:09,409
in the way not intentionally but
just my foot strike god i was 

729
00:41:09,409 --> 00:41:14,227
like well that's done so yeah 
matt the destroyer yeah no 

730
00:41:14,227 --> 00:41:19,599
kidding all right next one and i
don't know if bach meant cloud 

731
00:41:19,599 --> 00:41:24,994
monster 3 hyper or cloud monster
3 hyper ls yeah i'm the only one

732
00:41:24,994 --> 00:41:28,937
that has the ls well i actually 
have the ls but i can't run in 

733
00:41:28,937 --> 00:41:36,100
it oh you too i didn't know that
but that the the medial midfoot 

734
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:41,078
is way yeah that makes sense 
yeah there's no way okay no so 

735
00:41:41,078 --> 00:41:44,880
let's let's let's for both of us
to even this out and i'll put a 

736
00:41:44,899 --> 00:41:48,667
little asterisk with this so buy
or sell the specter elite is 

737
00:41:48,667 --> 00:41:52,340
better better better better 
better than the on cloud monster

738
00:41:52,340 --> 00:41:56,390
3 hyper for the marathon and for
me i'll do cloud monster 3 ls 

739
00:41:56,390 --> 00:42:01,429
okay you can do cloud monster 3 
hyper all right for me that is a

740
00:42:01,429 --> 00:42:05,020
wait we're saying the specter 
elite is better that's the 

741
00:42:05,020 --> 00:42:09,420
question that's a buy yeah why 
they're two very different shoes

742
00:42:09,420 --> 00:42:15,348
i had to look up the weight of 
the Cloud Monster 3 Hyper, it's 

743
00:42:15,348 --> 00:42:18,820
over nine ounces. 
Yeah, 9.3 ounces, whereas the 

744
00:42:19,139 --> 00:42:25,850
Spectre Elite is 7.1 ounces. 
Now, I love the Cloud Monster 

745
00:42:25,850 --> 00:42:28,900
Hyper 3. 
Three Hyper, sorry. 

746
00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:33,424
It is bouncy. 
It's not flexible. 

747
00:42:33,424 --> 00:42:37,160
It's comfortable. 
You know, on shoes fit me very 

748
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,876
nicely. 
They've got nice room in the toe

749
00:42:39,876 --> 00:42:44,010
box but it is a easy run shoe 
for the most part i mean you can

750
00:42:44,010 --> 00:42:49,399
pick up the pace in it but it 
would definitely not be a top 

751
00:42:49,399 --> 00:42:53,899
marathon racer because of its 
weight how about for the 

752
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:58,748
recreate like the non-elite well
i think that's more to the point

753
00:42:58,748 --> 00:43:03,694
of the question i think yeah the
specter elite is going to be for

754
00:43:03,694 --> 00:43:07,452
someone who is trying to run 
faster in the marathon yeah 

755
00:43:07,452 --> 00:43:11,889
it'll be super comfortable 
you've got topos fit great 

756
00:43:11,889 --> 00:43:17,280
midsole this will be an awesome 
marathon racing shoe for a lot 

757
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,595
of people the cloud monster 3 
hyper yeah it's really 

758
00:43:20,595 --> 00:43:24,656
comfortable at easy pace and it 
does feel like it gives you a 

759
00:43:24,656 --> 00:43:27,677
little boost because of the 
rocker geometry so for somebody 

760
00:43:27,677 --> 00:43:31,720
who's not running as fast and 
just wants a shoe that's 

761
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,055
comfortable and maybe not as 
aggressive the cloud monster 3 

762
00:43:35,055 --> 00:43:38,631
hyper would be a great choice 
but they are definitely not in 

763
00:43:38,631 --> 00:43:42,987
the same category in my mind 
yeah i would say it'd be closer 

764
00:43:42,987 --> 00:43:47,326
if for me personally if we're 
talking about the 3 hyper ls and

765
00:43:47,326 --> 00:43:51,724
that's why i am very excited to 
see if i can get my hands on a 

766
00:43:51,724 --> 00:43:55,909
pair of the clubroom strike 2 ls
just because man the difference 

767
00:43:55,909 --> 00:43:59,588
in feel and i do not believe 
that the on cloud monster 3 

768
00:43:59,588 --> 00:44:03,620
hyper and on cloud monster 3 
hyper ls have the same midsole 

769
00:44:03,620 --> 00:44:07,118
they feel completely different 
but if there's that much changes

770
00:44:07,118 --> 00:44:11,364
between the cloud boom strike 2 
and the cloud boom strike ls 2 i

771
00:44:11,364 --> 00:44:15,065
really want to try that so that 
make me really excited but the 

772
00:44:15,065 --> 00:44:18,584
spectra elite in my opinion for 
a lot of people that are trying 

773
00:44:18,584 --> 00:44:22,280
to run fast in the marathon the 
spectra elite is going to be the

774
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:26,005
better shoe for a lot of others 
that are just looking for a 

775
00:44:26,005 --> 00:44:28,593
comfortable shoe for long 
periods that's where the gap's 

776
00:44:28,593 --> 00:44:33,842
going to close a little bit but 
atpu foam the like speed the 

777
00:44:33,842 --> 00:44:38,380
bounciness the wider toe i mean 
it on has great uppers and that 

778
00:44:38,380 --> 00:44:41,760
the clamos 3 hyper is has a 
great upper it's got plenty of 

779
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,708
room it's really nice but for me
personally i'm taking the 

780
00:44:45,708 --> 00:44:49,424
specter elite over it other 
people might be different if 

781
00:44:49,424 --> 00:44:52,334
because and we had you know 
mentioned this while the 

782
00:44:52,334 --> 00:44:55,725
structure of the plate does help
offset this this forefoot rocker

783
00:44:55,725 --> 00:44:59,296
is massive and if that's 
something so you don't work well

784
00:44:59,296 --> 00:45:02,140
with that's going to be a 
different story whereas in the 

785
00:45:02,140 --> 00:45:05,280
cloud monster 3 hyper it's much 
smoother much like much more 

786
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,120
versatile for different people 
so i'm still going to be a sell 

787
00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,714
or i'm sorry i buy with this 
question but again another 

788
00:45:13,714 --> 00:45:19,602
caveat all right next one buy or
sell atpu is better than Pima 

789
00:45:19,602 --> 00:45:21,717
foams? 
It's a really interesting 

790
00:45:21,717 --> 00:45:25,094
question. 
I'm going to say buy, but of 

791
00:45:25,094 --> 00:45:29,246
course with caveats, because not
every ATPU, not every shoe with 

792
00:45:29,246 --> 00:45:31,979
ATPU is better than every shoe 
with Pima. 

793
00:45:32,639 --> 00:45:38,169
But I think we're seeing a trend
in shoe design where the highest

794
00:45:38,169 --> 00:45:42,836
tier super shoes are not being 
made with Peeba anymore. 

795
00:45:42,836 --> 00:45:49,951
Often aped TPU or like a TPE. 
I believe when I wasn't on the 

796
00:45:49,951 --> 00:45:54,679
interview, but when you guys had
the Saucony team on last year, 

797
00:45:54,699 --> 00:45:58,382
they were talking a little bit 
about how moving away from Peeba

798
00:45:58,382 --> 00:46:01,255
had allowed that. 
It lets them tune the 

799
00:46:01,255 --> 00:46:04,340
performance of the midsole much 
more than Peeba allows. 

800
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:10,184
So you can do a greater range of
things with non-Peeba midsoles. 

801
00:46:10,184 --> 00:46:14,500
if I recall correctly. 
So, yes, yeah, there, you know, 

802
00:46:14,500 --> 00:46:18,240
you think about the range of 
shoes that have Piva, the 

803
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:20,620
Vaporfly. 
That's been one of my favorite 

804
00:46:20,620 --> 00:46:23,855
shoes. 
I've run, God knows how many 

805
00:46:23,855 --> 00:46:26,987
races in the original Vaporfly 
and the Vaporfly three. 

806
00:46:26,987 --> 00:46:32,269
But then, you know, some of the 
like mid tier Nike shoes have 

807
00:46:32,269 --> 00:46:36,854
Piva and they're duds. 
Um, trying to think of low, like

808
00:46:36,854 --> 00:46:40,795
I wasn't a big fan of like any 
of the upgraded, vomero shoes 

809
00:46:40,795 --> 00:46:46,051
the plus or the premium that 
yeah that shoe has people right 

810
00:46:46,051 --> 00:46:51,279
yeah yep that shoe felt like a 
hockey puck on my foot so for 

811
00:46:51,279 --> 00:46:55,696
those who didn't realize who are
listening sorry i held up the on

812
00:46:55,696 --> 00:47:00,090
not sorry the nike uh pegasus 
plus let me not say turbo plus 

813
00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:04,703
og that i was complaining about 
earlier just didn't it was like 

814
00:47:04,703 --> 00:47:09,600
hockey pie yes just when you 
have a slab of midsole that 

815
00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:15,069
feels like it has no just 
acceptance no compliance of how 

816
00:47:15,069 --> 00:47:21,064
your foot is moving in any plane
that's what it felt like to me 

817
00:47:21,064 --> 00:47:26,116
it just felt dense and stiff and
dead yeah i was it felt it felt 

818
00:47:26,116 --> 00:47:29,263
for me it felt like it was 
compliant but not resilient at 

819
00:47:29,263 --> 00:47:32,755
all like i would just sink into 
it and stay there and i was like

820
00:47:32,755 --> 00:47:36,291
this is not the zoom house that 
i know so hopefully that's a 

821
00:47:36,291 --> 00:47:39,129
different sensation in version 
two yeah yeah i mean there's a 

822
00:47:39,129 --> 00:47:41,949
lot of shoes that have people 
that weren't great but we don't 

823
00:47:41,949 --> 00:47:45,509
have to list them all here but 
yeah and of course there are 

824
00:47:45,509 --> 00:47:49,149
shoes with atpu that aren't 
great but i think in general 

825
00:47:49,149 --> 00:47:55,036
there's more consistency in the 
quality of atpu midsoles than 

826
00:47:55,036 --> 00:48:00,675
piba midsoles so So, yeah, it's 
an exciting time to be a shoe 

827
00:48:00,675 --> 00:48:05,295
reviewer and just to see how the
industry is moving past the 

828
00:48:05,295 --> 00:48:09,915
assumption that if a shoe has 
Peeba, it's a super racing shoe,

829
00:48:09,915 --> 00:48:14,175
which is certainly not true. 
And that's very true, especially

830
00:48:14,175 --> 00:48:16,620
with the number of training 
shoes that are now starting to 

831
00:48:16,620 --> 00:48:18,840
have Peeba midsoles in them and 
getting softer and softer. 

832
00:48:18,939 --> 00:48:24,220
And so, yeah, I am also a buy on
this that I am, from a racing 

833
00:48:24,220 --> 00:48:26,860
standpoint, the ATPU foams have 
been noticeably better. 

834
00:48:27,179 --> 00:48:29,239
I'm feeling a lot more bounce 
out of it. 

835
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:32,332
The other thing I'm also 
noticing, and this is 

836
00:48:32,332 --> 00:48:36,076
testimonial, so just N of one, 
just me, I'm getting a lot 

837
00:48:36,076 --> 00:48:38,260
better midsole durability out of
the ATPU. 

838
00:48:38,340 --> 00:48:42,246
Like, not me, and people call me
out on this all the time, not 

839
00:48:42,246 --> 00:48:44,199
the outsole durability. 
It's a different story. 

840
00:48:44,879 --> 00:48:47,963
But how long the shoes, the 
midsoles are holding their 

841
00:48:47,963 --> 00:48:51,659
resilience, how many miles I can
get out of them, much longer. 

842
00:48:51,879 --> 00:48:53,859
Where there's a lot of people's 
shoes that like, you know, by 

843
00:48:53,859 --> 00:48:55,839
the time you got 100 miles in 
those racing shoes, they were 

844
00:48:55,839 --> 00:48:56,659
kind of like lightweight 
trainers. 

845
00:48:56,830 --> 00:49:00,694
Like you lost a lot of that. 
That has not been the case with 

846
00:49:00,694 --> 00:49:04,000
far more of the shoes that have 
the ATPU midsoles in them. 

847
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,228
So it feels, and somebody can 
call me out if this is wrong, if

848
00:49:07,228 --> 00:49:08,719
the mechanical testing is 
showing something different. 

849
00:49:09,020 --> 00:49:13,228
But the durability seems to be 
holding up and a lot better in 

850
00:49:13,228 --> 00:49:16,249
some of these films. 
So, yes, there's nothing wrong 

851
00:49:16,249 --> 00:49:20,013
with Peeba, but ATPU is, it's 
just given me, it's given me 

852
00:49:20,013 --> 00:49:20,639
more. 
Right. 

853
00:49:20,780 --> 00:49:23,754
So, I'm going to buy it as well.
It'll be interesting in five 

854
00:49:23,754 --> 00:49:28,829
years how many new shoes have 
Peeba in it and where mid-sull 

855
00:49:28,829 --> 00:49:30,939
technology goes. 
Old news now. 

856
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:32,555
Move over, Peeba. 
That's right. 

857
00:49:32,555 --> 00:49:33,272
Just kidding. 
Sorry. 

858
00:49:33,272 --> 00:49:35,179
I don't know where that, I'm so 
sorry. 

859
00:49:35,219 --> 00:49:36,745
I don't know where that came 
from. 

860
00:49:36,745 --> 00:49:38,268
Anyway, our next buy or sell 
question. 

861
00:49:38,268 --> 00:49:43,490
That was weird. 
By or so, rockers are specific 

862
00:49:43,490 --> 00:49:46,635
to certain foot strike styles. 
Question. 

863
00:49:46,635 --> 00:49:49,255
I guess. 
Yes or no? 

864
00:49:49,255 --> 00:49:51,351
Yeah. 
By or so? 

865
00:49:51,351 --> 00:49:53,224
They are? 
I'm sorry. 

866
00:49:53,224 --> 00:49:55,933
I didn't have the right 
inflection at the end. 

867
00:49:55,933 --> 00:49:57,739
Rockers. 
Specific to foot strike styles? 

868
00:49:59,459 --> 00:50:02,627
Rockers will interact with foot 
strike styles differently. 

869
00:50:02,627 --> 00:50:06,580
I think that's probably where 
this question is coming from. 

870
00:50:07,699 --> 00:50:11,071
Can I bring some? 
I think one of the things I was 

871
00:50:11,071 --> 00:50:14,159
possibly talking about is I was 
mentioning earlier in our chat, 

872
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:16,764
talking about the fact that a 
lot of racing shoes and a couple

873
00:50:16,764 --> 00:50:20,243
of training shoes I've noticed 
are starting to have a lot more 

874
00:50:20,243 --> 00:50:22,699
of this lateral, like, laterally
biased forefoot rocker. 

875
00:50:22,729 --> 00:50:26,495
And I don't think we've talked 
about this because, for me, it 

876
00:50:26,495 --> 00:50:29,442
feels good as someone who 
sometimes needs a little 

877
00:50:29,442 --> 00:50:31,908
stability. 
I have an elevated first MTP 

878
00:50:31,908 --> 00:50:36,094
joint on both sides, much worse 
on my right than my left, Where 

879
00:50:36,094 --> 00:50:39,653
if I have that kind of thing, it
really helps me supinate off 

880
00:50:39,653 --> 00:50:42,139
very nicely. 
That also may or may not be 

881
00:50:42,139 --> 00:50:44,452
contributing to my Achilles 
tendinopathy because we do know 

882
00:50:44,452 --> 00:50:47,268
that people that tend to have 
greater weight bearing on the 

883
00:50:47,268 --> 00:50:49,828
lateral aspect of the forefoot 
also are greater risk for 

884
00:50:49,828 --> 00:50:51,654
Achilles tendinopathy. 
But that's a different story. 

885
00:50:51,654 --> 00:50:54,465
But I was very curious because, 
as you mentioned, you hate the 

886
00:50:54,465 --> 00:50:57,178
sidewall. 
How have you been strong to that

887
00:50:57,178 --> 00:50:58,730
or have you not noticed this at 
all? 

888
00:50:58,730 --> 00:51:00,280
Because this actually has that a
good amount. 

889
00:51:00,479 --> 00:51:03,487
Several Puma shoes have that. 
Have you noticed that or not 

890
00:51:03,487 --> 00:51:06,564
really? 
So, yes, I've certainly noticed 

891
00:51:06,564 --> 00:51:11,732
that we've been talking about 
the forefoot bias of racing 

892
00:51:11,732 --> 00:51:15,270
shoes more lately. 
Whereas, like, if you think 

893
00:51:15,270 --> 00:51:18,286
about the Vaporfly, well, 
actually, the Vaporfly 3 is a 

894
00:51:18,286 --> 00:51:21,597
really good example of a shoe 
that's a little medially biased 

895
00:51:21,597 --> 00:51:23,726
in the forefoot. 
And, of course, that's why it 

896
00:51:23,726 --> 00:51:27,680
worked so well for me. 
But it does seem like more and 

897
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:32,552
more shoes are having a bit of a
lateral bias now, which it seems

898
00:51:32,552 --> 00:51:36,728
when you hear like their R&D 
people talk about it, the idea 

899
00:51:36,728 --> 00:51:40,208
is they're helping make the 
forefoot a little more stable, 

900
00:51:40,208 --> 00:51:43,862
which makes sense, but not more 
stable for everybody. because, 

901
00:51:43,862 --> 00:51:48,047
for example, for me, a shoe that
pushes me to the lateral aspect 

902
00:51:48,047 --> 00:51:51,899
of my forefoot is not what I 
need because I'm already there. 

903
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,629
I need a shoe to help me get to 
the medial aspect of my 

904
00:51:55,629 --> 00:51:58,597
forefoot. 
So, you know, anytime you see 

905
00:51:58,597 --> 00:52:02,479
these trends in shoe design, it 
makes you wonder, like, there 

906
00:52:02,479 --> 00:52:06,543
was some study that said, or 
they went to a conference and 

907
00:52:06,543 --> 00:52:10,287
they talked about how, oh, if 
you put a little bit of lateral 

908
00:52:10,287 --> 00:52:13,918
bias in the forefoot, it does 
this for a runner. 

909
00:52:13,918 --> 00:52:17,979
So then, you know, two to three 
years later, you see that design

910
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,595
in a number of shoes. 
So I feel like it's kind of like

911
00:52:21,595 --> 00:52:23,379
the forefoot design trend of the
moment. 

912
00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:27,829
It just, we talk about this ad 
nauseum here, right? 

913
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:32,244
A feature that is good for one 
person is not necessarily going 

914
00:52:32,244 --> 00:52:35,075
to be good for everybody. 
And that's why you and I have 

915
00:52:35,075 --> 00:52:37,600
episodes where we argue from 
time to time. 

916
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,800
Because Matt and I, for 
listeners who are not familiar 

917
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,002
with us, Matt and I have very 
different biomechanics. 

918
00:52:44,002 --> 00:52:47,459
So the shoes that we like tend 
to be different. 

919
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,916
I could absolutely love one shoe
and Matt could absolutely hate 

920
00:52:51,916 --> 00:52:54,378
that shoe. 
And we could describe it in 

921
00:52:54,378 --> 00:52:57,592
completely opposite terms. 
And it doesn't mean one of us is

922
00:52:57,592 --> 00:52:58,760
right. 
We're both right. 

923
00:52:58,780 --> 00:53:01,219
We just had different 
experiences in it. 

924
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:07,308
So what I hope that the industry
does not do is start making 

925
00:53:07,308 --> 00:53:11,762
assumptions that this design is 
good for everybody because that 

926
00:53:11,762 --> 00:53:15,415
is rarely true. 
But is a laterally biased 

927
00:53:15,415 --> 00:53:18,364
forefoot good for some people? 
Absolutely. 

928
00:53:18,364 --> 00:53:21,370
Is it good for everybody? 
No. 

929
00:53:21,370 --> 00:53:25,378
That's fair. 
So yeah, that's exactly where I 

930
00:53:25,378 --> 00:53:29,940
want to go with that. 
But I think the other question 

931
00:53:29,940 --> 00:53:35,024
is the rockers in the sagittal 
plane, do you think all certain 

932
00:53:35,024 --> 00:53:38,335
rocker types are best for 
certain foot strikes overall or 

933
00:53:38,335 --> 00:53:39,328
not really? 
Definitely. 

934
00:53:39,328 --> 00:53:43,372
So, you know, if we talk about 
heel bevels, which we talk about

935
00:53:43,372 --> 00:53:46,933
heel bevels so much, we have a 
shirt about them. 

936
00:53:46,933 --> 00:53:53,387
So a heel bevel, the idea is to 
smooth out the transition from 

937
00:53:53,387 --> 00:53:56,959
initial contact, particularly 
for heel strikers, right? 

938
00:53:56,959 --> 00:54:01,680
But a heel bevel needs to be 
designed to best mimic how the 

939
00:54:01,699 --> 00:54:06,120
heel bone is actually shaped. 
If you put a heel bevel too far 

940
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,728
forward, I'm just thinking, so 
the Spectre is a great example 

941
00:54:10,728 --> 00:54:13,590
of a shoe with a pretty large 
heel bevel. 

942
00:54:13,590 --> 00:54:18,020
So for someone like Matt, who 
lands really heavily, you always

943
00:54:18,020 --> 00:54:20,806
tear off the posterior lateral 
piece, right? 

944
00:54:20,806 --> 00:54:23,568
Yeah. 
So Matt's always landing here. 

945
00:54:23,568 --> 00:54:30,649
So a shoe with a really large 
heel bevel is going to make Matt

946
00:54:30,649 --> 00:54:33,966
land much their forward than 
he's used to, which that could 

947
00:54:33,966 --> 00:54:37,735
be a good thing or a bad thing, 
depending on how fast you're 

948
00:54:37,735 --> 00:54:40,243
running, how irritated your 
Achilles is. 

949
00:54:40,243 --> 00:54:45,969
For someone like me, I do well 
in shoes that have large heel 

950
00:54:45,969 --> 00:54:49,665
bevels because I naturally land 
in my midfoot. 

951
00:54:49,665 --> 00:54:54,968
So having a good heel bevel just
basically gets the rear foot out

952
00:54:54,968 --> 00:54:57,830
of the way. 
You know, I was talking about 

953
00:54:57,830 --> 00:55:02,907
the Pegasus Plus 2 two earlier, 
and this shoe has a tiny heel 

954
00:55:02,907 --> 00:55:08,434
bevel and a 10 millimeter drop. 
So even though I want to land 

955
00:55:08,434 --> 00:55:12,829
here, when I do land here, I 
feel a lot of contact with my 

956
00:55:12,829 --> 00:55:16,549
rear foot in the ground, and 
that feels uncomfortable to me, 

957
00:55:16,549 --> 00:55:18,943
and that makes the shoe feel 
clunky. 

958
00:55:18,943 --> 00:55:23,027
So that is why two people can 
have wildly different 

959
00:55:23,027 --> 00:55:27,793
experiences with a certain 
feature of a shoe based on their

960
00:55:27,793 --> 00:55:32,001
natural mechanics. 
So similarly in the forefoot, so

961
00:55:32,001 --> 00:55:35,340
I should actually have the shoe 
anymore. 

962
00:55:35,449 --> 00:55:37,979
The New Balance Balos, you 
probably have that still, right?

963
00:55:38,659 --> 00:55:42,132
I feel like this shoe is similar
to the Balos, just not as 

964
00:55:42,132 --> 00:55:45,687
aggressive. 
The Balos had a huge heel bevel 

965
00:55:45,687 --> 00:55:47,870
and a very early forefoot 
rocker. 

966
00:55:47,870 --> 00:55:51,500
And I just, I could not run in 
that shoe. 

967
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,371
I think it made my knees hurt, 
which like I never have knee 

968
00:55:56,371 --> 00:56:00,575
pain when I run. 
But you can imagine if you've 

969
00:56:00,575 --> 00:56:05,333
got this huge rocker here and a 
very, very early rocker here and

970
00:56:05,333 --> 00:56:09,355
I'm landing here, I had very 
little room to actually just 

971
00:56:09,355 --> 00:56:13,370
have my foot on the ground 
before I'm being pushed into 

972
00:56:13,370 --> 00:56:15,981
push off. 
So the BELOS just felt so 

973
00:56:15,981 --> 00:56:19,051
unstable to me. 
It felt like I was landing in 

974
00:56:19,051 --> 00:56:21,500
more planar flexion, which, of 
course, I was. 

975
00:56:22,060 --> 00:56:26,455
But you liked the BELOS, right? 
Or at least did not hate it the 

976
00:56:26,455 --> 00:56:28,959
way that I did. 
I didn't hate it. 

977
00:56:29,070 --> 00:56:31,663
It wasn't my favorite, but I was
very impressed that it worked 

978
00:56:31,663 --> 00:56:33,911
better than I was expecting to, 
especially from a stability 

979
00:56:33,911 --> 00:56:35,259
standpoint. 
I'm like, oh, gosh, this is 

980
00:56:35,259 --> 00:56:38,623
going to be super soft. 
And it was, but it wasn't as 

981
00:56:38,623 --> 00:56:41,608
unstable as I expected. 
Got a decent amount of miles on 

982
00:56:41,608 --> 00:56:43,560
them. 
Not the top, top, top shoe, but 

983
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:45,410
I was like, oh, this is better 
than I expected. 

984
00:56:45,410 --> 00:56:46,520
And then now it's dead. 
Yeah. 

985
00:56:47,479 --> 00:56:48,998
Because of you. 
No, I'm just kidding. 

986
00:56:48,998 --> 00:56:50,300
I'm sorry. 
It's dead to you. 

987
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:56,070
So, of course, the location of 
where a forefoot rocker starts 

988
00:56:56,070 --> 00:57:00,170
is important for, well, a person
will interact with it 

989
00:57:00,170 --> 00:57:04,677
differently based on how they 
land, right, and how their foot 

990
00:57:04,677 --> 00:57:07,540
progresses from initial contact 
to push off. 

991
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:11,820
Then you can also talk about 
location of the forefoot rocker 

992
00:57:11,820 --> 00:57:16,240
in relation to your first MTP 
joint or the ball of your foot, 

993
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:20,759
your big toe joint. 
So for someone who has longer 

994
00:57:20,759 --> 00:57:26,625
toes or shorter toes, your first
MTP joint is going to be at a 

995
00:57:26,625 --> 00:57:29,139
different location in the shoe, 
right? 

996
00:57:29,229 --> 00:57:34,216
So I have shorter toes. 
So I tend to not do well with 

997
00:57:34,216 --> 00:57:38,253
shoes that have a really early 
forefoot rocker because it feels

998
00:57:38,253 --> 00:57:41,553
like push-off starts when I'm 
still weight-bearing through my 

999
00:57:41,553 --> 00:57:43,885
midfoot. 
Whereas somebody who has longer 

1000
00:57:43,885 --> 00:57:48,025
toes, their first MTP joint is 
going to be located further back

1001
00:57:48,025 --> 00:57:50,690
in the shoe. 
And of course, this is all 

1002
00:57:50,690 --> 00:57:51,860
relative to your foot length, 
right? 

1003
00:57:52,199 --> 00:57:56,956
So if your toes are relatively 
short for your foot length, then

1004
00:57:56,956 --> 00:58:01,708
you're more likely going to have
issues with lining up with the 

1005
00:58:01,708 --> 00:58:04,520
forefoot rocker. 
I think shoes are generally 

1006
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,199
designed for people with longer 
toes. 

1007
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:12,464
Or medium toes, or maybe they're
not thinking about that. 

1008
00:58:12,464 --> 00:58:15,632
I have no idea. 
So buy or sell. 

1009
00:58:15,632 --> 00:58:16,424
Buy. 
Okay. 

1010
00:58:16,424 --> 00:58:18,840
Yeah. 
That rockers are specific. 

1011
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,940
That they can design rockers 
that are specific to certain 

1012
00:58:22,940 --> 00:58:24,580
foot strikes. 
I am. 

1013
00:58:27,439 --> 00:58:31,308
I wouldn't say they're specific.
I'd say it's the other direction

1014
00:58:31,308 --> 00:58:34,326
where people with different foot
strikes may interact 

1015
00:58:34,326 --> 00:58:35,080
differently. 
Yes. 

1016
00:58:35,219 --> 00:58:38,541
With different foot strikes. 
I'm not sure that we should say 

1017
00:58:38,541 --> 00:58:42,278
like, oh, you have to make a 
specific rocker for this. that's

1018
00:58:42,278 --> 00:58:47,850
true but i'm also like yes and 
no right where yeah i don't need

1019
00:58:47,850 --> 00:58:51,711
think you need like i'm i'm 
still interested with like such 

1020
00:58:51,711 --> 00:58:55,361
a massive rocker in here because
initially i it felt like it was 

1021
00:58:55,361 --> 00:58:58,735
kind of weird to get up on the 
forefoot just because with the s

1022
00:58:58,735 --> 00:59:01,908
not sc the um spectra elite it 
almost felt like there was 

1023
00:59:01,908 --> 00:59:04,742
nothing for me to land on so it 
felt better being heel or 

1024
00:59:04,742 --> 00:59:08,492
midfoot so trying to run really 
fast like sprinting and doing 

1025
00:59:08,492 --> 00:59:11,490
short intervals in the the 
spectra elite i would not do 

1026
00:59:11,490 --> 00:59:14,530
this is not going to be a shoe i
would try for a 5k just because 

1027
00:59:14,530 --> 00:59:17,639
the rocker's too large and 
doesn't feel like it can really 

1028
00:59:17,639 --> 00:59:20,659
push off as hard whereas like 
doing those marathon half 

1029
00:59:20,879 --> 00:59:24,704
marathon efforts like it's 
smooth just rolls along very 

1030
00:59:24,704 --> 00:59:28,742
efficient so i don't think it's 
necessarily specific to foot 

1031
00:59:28,742 --> 00:59:32,564
strike so i don't want people to
think oh i'm designing the shoe 

1032
00:59:32,564 --> 00:59:36,332
as for heel strikers so it needs
to have a heel bevel it should 

1033
00:59:36,332 --> 00:59:39,521
be i don't care where the person
lands you need to have issue 

1034
00:59:39,521 --> 00:59:42,833
with the heel bevel because the 
calcaneus is curved and you 

1035
00:59:42,833 --> 00:59:45,740
should be trying to mimic some 
degrees of natural foot 

1036
00:59:45,740 --> 00:59:47,140
mechanics if you want it to 
work. 

1037
00:59:47,140 --> 00:59:50,456
Whereas if you don't have a 
bevel, you are going to have an 

1038
00:59:50,456 --> 00:59:52,816
early initial contact and it's 
going to push you forward. 

1039
00:59:52,816 --> 00:59:56,296
And it's not just the bevel. 
Like, can you hold up the peg 

1040
00:59:56,296 --> 00:59:58,159
plus two? 
I almost called it turbo two. 

1041
00:59:58,979 --> 01:00:00,953
You know, as you like that, 
you're right. 

1042
01:00:00,953 --> 01:00:03,844
It has a bevel, but there are 
other components that are going 

1043
01:00:03,844 --> 01:00:05,508
to, that might interact 
differently going, how sharp is 

1044
01:00:05,508 --> 01:00:07,365
the bevel? 
If you have a lot of posterior 

1045
01:00:07,365 --> 01:00:11,015
flare, meaning the sole extends 
farther back behind where the 

1046
01:00:11,015 --> 01:00:14,747
heel is and the angulation of 
the bevel is still behind where 

1047
01:00:14,747 --> 01:00:17,673
your foot and where your heel 
sits, that's going to feel 

1048
01:00:17,673 --> 01:00:19,804
different. 
So just because there's a rocker

1049
01:00:19,804 --> 01:00:22,739
there doesn't necessarily mean, 
oh, it's for this foot strike. 

1050
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,758
You should have those there 
depending on how the shoe is 

1051
01:00:27,758 --> 01:00:30,842
designed. 
A shoe like your favorite, the 

1052
01:00:30,842 --> 01:00:34,455
Cyclone 3, even though it has 
one, because the sole is lower, 

1053
01:00:34,455 --> 01:00:37,509
there's not as much midsole 
stack height you don't need to 

1054
01:00:37,509 --> 01:00:41,320
have as much of a rocker because
it's so low the lower you are to

1055
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:43,928
the ground the less rocker you 
need because you need to be 

1056
01:00:43,928 --> 01:00:46,907
using the natural ones in your 
foot but the further your way 

1057
01:00:46,907 --> 01:00:50,700
are from the ground like the 
turbo plus two like the scle 

1058
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:54,981
like you know like the um 
specter elite you need that 

1059
01:00:54,981 --> 01:00:59,179
because you have so much foam 
there and it's often stiffness 

1060
01:00:59,179 --> 01:01:02,056
with or without a plate that you
need to replace that where and 

1061
01:01:02,056 --> 01:01:05,735
how you do that i feel like is 
more important um for different 

1062
01:01:05,735 --> 01:01:10,224
foot strikes but i'm yeah i 
don't think there's specific 

1063
01:01:10,224 --> 01:01:13,156
rockers for specific foot 
strikes like it's just something

1064
01:01:13,156 --> 01:01:16,883
you should just have that's true
not like i need to have a heel 

1065
01:01:16,883 --> 01:01:19,847
level because i'm a heel strike 
no you should just have it 

1066
01:01:19,847 --> 01:01:23,074
because that's how the body 
transitions and not everybody is

1067
01:01:23,074 --> 01:01:27,219
a one foot strike style all the 
time and we've talked about this

1068
01:01:27,250 --> 01:01:30,270
before that even among elite 
runners you get somebody through

1069
01:01:30,270 --> 01:01:33,519
a marathon when they fatigue 
you'll see some of the best 

1070
01:01:33,519 --> 01:01:35,807
runners in the world will 
actually switch between 

1071
01:01:35,807 --> 01:01:38,924
different landing patterns 
depending on how people fatigue 

1072
01:01:38,924 --> 01:01:42,743
and especially the trail and 
cross country people don't have 

1073
01:01:42,743 --> 01:01:45,765
one set foot strike they their 
foot and lower body adapts to 

1074
01:01:45,765 --> 01:01:48,910
the unique terrain so they're 
going to land however they can 

1075
01:01:48,910 --> 01:01:53,320
to get through whatever so yeah 
i'm kind of a sell on this where

1076
01:01:53,419 --> 01:01:57,910
it's just like you need to have 
this how you design the rocker 

1077
01:01:57,910 --> 01:02:01,272
should vary depending on pacing 
who you're doing this for but 

1078
01:02:01,272 --> 01:02:04,066
maybe it's just me poo-pooing 
foot strike but i feel like 

1079
01:02:04,066 --> 01:02:07,532
there's a lot more factors than 
foot strike that are involved in

1080
01:02:07,532 --> 01:02:12,920
this but kind of said the same 
thing yeah so i don't know what 

1081
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:20,314
this last question is so i'm 
going to make this a little more

1082
01:02:20,314 --> 01:02:25,800
interesting so buy or sell the 
sc rebel should be the new rebel

1083
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,290
Because word on the street and 
we've gotten various information

1084
01:02:31,290 --> 01:02:35,400
on this and I've heard one thing
and then also heard the other 

1085
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:38,560
that the SC Rebel is the 
replacement for the Rebel. 

1086
01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:42,899
But then other words going the 
SC Rebel is its own thing and 

1087
01:02:42,899 --> 01:02:44,603
the Rebel series will also 
continue. 

1088
01:02:44,603 --> 01:02:48,612
So I've heard both. 
But let's go with buy or sell. 

1089
01:02:48,612 --> 01:02:53,330
The SC Rebel replaces the Rebel.
I'm going to say sell and I'll 

1090
01:02:53,330 --> 01:02:55,239
tell you what I hope actually 
happens. 

1091
01:02:55,719 --> 01:03:00,999
I hope that the SC Rebel 
replaces the SC Trainer, which 

1092
01:03:00,999 --> 01:03:04,827
is a shoe that... 
Which is what I thought was 

1093
01:03:04,827 --> 01:03:06,805
supposed to happen. 
And then the whole new name was 

1094
01:03:06,805 --> 01:03:10,499
like, what? 
The SC Trainer has been a good 

1095
01:03:10,499 --> 01:03:15,084
example of shoes that I dislike.
High stack, soft, just too 

1096
01:03:15,084 --> 01:03:18,761
heavy. 
Not fun to run in for me. 

1097
01:03:18,761 --> 01:03:22,870
Although I did like the first 
version of it, which was the 

1098
01:03:22,870 --> 01:03:27,432
heaviest, but also the stiffest.
I still to this day say like 

1099
01:03:27,432 --> 01:03:32,440
that shoe just runs for you. 
I got that shoe when I was in 

1100
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,760
the midst of like highest 
mileage marathon training. 

1101
01:03:35,580 --> 01:03:38,907
And some days when I just had 
like a double and my legs were 

1102
01:03:38,907 --> 01:03:41,040
so tired, that shoe I just put 
it on. 

1103
01:03:41,719 --> 01:03:44,612
But like I couldn't even walk, 
but I could go run three miles 

1104
01:03:44,612 --> 01:03:48,140
in it, you know. 
I don't think I've tested 

1105
01:03:48,140 --> 01:03:50,739
anything quite like that shoe 
since then. 

1106
01:03:50,739 --> 01:03:54,820
Like Mega Blast is a great shoe.
It doesn't run 40. 

1107
01:03:55,100 --> 01:03:56,636
It's not. 
Yeah, that was insane. 

1108
01:03:56,636 --> 01:03:59,959
And I got so many miles on that 
shoe before it finally died. 

1109
01:04:00,199 --> 01:04:04,903
So anyway, so I hope that the SE
Rebel replaces the trainer 

1110
01:04:04,903 --> 01:04:08,820
because I think that's what the 
SE trainer should be. 

1111
01:04:09,399 --> 01:04:13,439
I think the SE Rebel is most 
like an endorphin speed. 

1112
01:04:13,979 --> 01:04:17,464
It's a performance trainer that 
a lot of people are going to use

1113
01:04:17,464 --> 01:04:19,340
for racing. 
And it's an awesome shoe. 

1114
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,179
People are probably going to 
need to go up a half size. 

1115
01:04:22,639 --> 01:04:25,519
I hope I get to test it in a 
size that fits me because I 

1116
01:04:25,519 --> 01:04:27,439
think I would get a lot of miles
on it. 

1117
01:04:28,389 --> 01:04:31,053
But the regular Rebel is a great
shoe. 

1118
01:04:31,053 --> 01:04:35,049
I really enjoyed the most recent
version, which is the 5, I 

1119
01:04:35,049 --> 01:04:38,424
think, or the 6. 
The regular Rebel. 

1120
01:04:38,424 --> 01:04:39,699
You like that one? 
Yeah. 

1121
01:04:39,699 --> 01:04:44,507
I didn't like the one before it.
But the most recent Rebel, I 

1122
01:04:44,507 --> 01:04:47,179
liked that one. 
But that's a training shoe. 

1123
01:04:47,580 --> 01:04:51,969
It's not, you wouldn't, most 
people would not think of the 

1124
01:04:51,969 --> 01:04:56,358
regular Rebel and say, this is a
endorphin speed comparison and 

1125
01:04:56,358 --> 01:05:01,139
people are going to be able to 
erase a 5k in it. 

1126
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:03,116
But I think. 
Okay. 

1127
01:05:03,116 --> 01:05:06,296
I wouldn't erase a 5k in the 
endorphin speed either. 

1128
01:05:06,296 --> 01:05:07,886
But some people do. 
Yeah. 

1129
01:05:07,886 --> 01:05:08,840
Okay. 
That's fair. 

1130
01:05:09,060 --> 01:05:12,660
My friend ran a 258 marathon in 
the endorphin speed. 

1131
01:05:12,660 --> 01:05:16,980
That makes sense because it is 
like I feel like it's a 

1132
01:05:16,980 --> 01:05:19,269
marathon. 
Even though it's become this 

1133
01:05:19,269 --> 01:05:22,055
like lightweight trainer, the 
original endorphin was the pros 

1134
01:05:22,055 --> 01:05:25,774
for people who wanted stiffer. 
The speed was for people that 

1135
01:05:25,774 --> 01:05:28,015
want a little more flexibility. 
And they kind of. 

1136
01:05:28,015 --> 01:05:29,260
Yeah. 
I can totally see. 

1137
01:05:29,379 --> 01:05:33,709
And I used to use the speed for 
all of my like interval 

1138
01:05:33,709 --> 01:05:36,040
workouts, including like 5k or 
mile pace. 

1139
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,419
So the SE Rebel is a very 
different shoe. 

1140
01:05:40,500 --> 01:05:44,299
It's maybe unfortunate that they
decided to call it SE Rebel 

1141
01:05:44,299 --> 01:05:48,439
because I think it's just going 
to confuse a lot of people. 

1142
01:05:49,139 --> 01:05:52,195
It's not the same as the current
Rebel. 

1143
01:05:52,195 --> 01:05:55,993
It's very different. 
So hopefully the SE Rebel is 

1144
01:05:55,993 --> 01:06:00,097
going to be the new SE Trainer 
and they'll keep making regular 

1145
01:06:00,097 --> 01:06:02,997
Rebels. 
I hope the next regular Rebel 

1146
01:06:02,997 --> 01:06:06,330
will maybe be a little lower 
stack and a little firmer, 

1147
01:06:06,330 --> 01:06:10,997
which, you know, is what I want 
for most years. but we'll see 

1148
01:06:10,997 --> 01:06:15,144
maybe they'll use the same foam 
that they used in the sc rebel 

1149
01:06:15,144 --> 01:06:19,664
that they'll use in the new 
rebel if that exists yeah that's

1150
01:06:19,664 --> 01:06:24,079
fair yeah i would love to see 
them have the rebel continue do 

1151
01:06:24,079 --> 01:06:26,659
what you just said have them 
continue but don't go up the 

1152
01:06:26,659 --> 01:06:30,529
high stack i feel like the high 
i did not like the rebel view 5 

1153
01:06:30,529 --> 01:06:34,291
i was like why i what you could 
have dropped the weight you 

1154
01:06:34,291 --> 01:06:38,065
could used a newer foam why do 
you need to go up higher that's 

1155
01:06:38,065 --> 01:06:41,447
it's redundant but i know a lot 
of people that love that shoe 

1156
01:06:41,447 --> 01:06:44,155
and that's totally fair but i 
probably would have liked the 

1157
01:06:44,155 --> 01:06:47,735
version so the five is the most 
recent rebel right yes the four 

1158
01:06:47,735 --> 01:06:51,662
i would have really liked it i 
think i liked the foam better 

1159
01:06:51,662 --> 01:06:56,730
but it had a weird like gap in 
the outsole rubber right in the 

1160
01:06:56,730 --> 01:07:01,236
midfoot and it was like right 
where I landed and it felt like 

1161
01:07:01,236 --> 01:07:06,199
it made the shoe flex at that 
point and it made it feel like I

1162
01:07:06,199 --> 01:07:09,865
would rock back onto my rear 
foot a little bit because of it 

1163
01:07:09,865 --> 01:07:15,228
and it just was not good for me 
and then the Rebel 5 fixed that 

1164
01:07:15,228 --> 01:07:19,468
they there's no gap in the 
outsole rubber so it made it a 

1165
01:07:19,468 --> 01:07:23,780
lot more comfortable for me but 
I think the feel of the midsole 

1166
01:07:23,780 --> 01:07:28,996
of the 4 was better if not for 
that little outsole flexibility 

1167
01:07:28,996 --> 01:07:30,936
issue. 
Yeah, that outsole flexibility 

1168
01:07:30,936 --> 01:07:35,580
is why I love version 4 so much.
It was like perfect. 

1169
01:07:35,810 --> 01:07:38,384
It was weirdly stable. 
I did tons of long runs even 

1170
01:07:38,384 --> 01:07:40,875
though I was like, I don't feel 
like there's enough shoe here 

1171
01:07:40,875 --> 01:07:42,639
for where I am right now to be 
able to do this. 

1172
01:07:42,689 --> 01:07:50,048
I loved version 4 and was very 
sad when version 5 came out. 

1173
01:07:50,048 --> 01:07:54,576
Like, oh. 
And, you know, here's time for 

1174
01:07:54,576 --> 01:07:59,571
my plug for the, the return of 
the beacon, maybe New Balance 

1175
01:07:59,571 --> 01:08:03,267
will bring back the beacon, 
which is the best shoe they've 

1176
01:08:03,267 --> 01:08:07,091
ever made. 
Okay, so for that reason, I'm 

1177
01:08:07,091 --> 01:08:12,017
going to be a buy on this, that 
the SC Rebel should replace the 

1178
01:08:12,017 --> 01:08:18,407
normal Rebel and the SC Trainer,
but then we come out with 

1179
01:08:18,407 --> 01:08:22,799
favorite shoe again, updated. 
I like your reality there. 

1180
01:08:23,979 --> 01:08:28,884
Or we call it the New Balance 
Rebel Minimus and bring more 

1181
01:08:28,884 --> 01:08:31,740
Minimus lines back. 
But that's just me. 

1182
01:08:33,180 --> 01:08:35,334
Just to make it more confusing, 
because we're already doing SE 

1183
01:08:35,334 --> 01:08:37,479
Rebel at this point, so we might
as well just continue. 

1184
01:08:37,959 --> 01:08:41,229
New Balance, just keep going. 
You're already, you're double 

1185
01:08:41,229 --> 01:08:42,318
down. 
Why not? 

1186
01:08:42,318 --> 01:08:44,859
Confuse your product line a 
little more. 

1187
01:08:44,899 --> 01:08:46,680
Everybody else is doing it. 
Why not? 

1188
01:08:46,979 --> 01:08:50,750
Yeah, I mean, New Balance with 
only one or two words in their 

1189
01:08:50,750 --> 01:08:52,200
shoe names, they're really 
behind. 

1190
01:08:53,020 --> 01:08:56,604
At least to be fair, at least 
they're using names and not like

1191
01:08:56,604 --> 01:09:00,752
the 10, like they still do this,
but like the 420 and it's like, 

1192
01:09:00,752 --> 01:09:03,984
which is this? 
There was a system and to defend

1193
01:09:03,984 --> 01:09:06,160
New Balance, they did have a 
numeric system. 

1194
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,305
And when I worked in running 
retail, it was like, they tried 

1195
01:09:09,305 --> 01:09:11,345
to explain it. 
I'm like, I don't understand 

1196
01:09:11,345 --> 01:09:13,209
this. 
Like, I don't get it. 

1197
01:09:13,209 --> 01:09:14,733
But at least they're using 
names. 

1198
01:09:14,733 --> 01:09:17,520
So that's fair, you know, to 
give them a hard time. 

1199
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,071
But everybody else is doing 
that. least at least they 

1200
01:09:20,071 --> 01:09:24,006
shorten it so it's not they 
don't nobody says super comp it 

1201
01:09:24,006 --> 01:09:27,843
says sc and at least there 
aren't 40 words thank you new 

1202
01:09:27,843 --> 01:09:31,265
balance a couple companies are 
still doing that you're like you

1203
01:09:31,265 --> 01:09:34,192
guys like it from an seo 
perspective like if you want 

1204
01:09:34,192 --> 01:09:37,875
this to show up on search terms 
like don't do that like keep it 

1205
01:09:37,875 --> 01:09:41,444
short and it's such a pain for 
us to write on the reviews like 

1206
01:09:41,444 --> 01:09:48,975
the the nike pegasus premium 
plus turbo just kidding but you 

1207
01:09:48,975 --> 01:09:52,533
know it's like that many names 
although nike they shortened it 

1208
01:09:52,533 --> 01:09:56,678
up remember it was like nike 
zoom vaporfly and then it was 

1209
01:09:56,678 --> 01:10:00,333
just nike vaporfly that was 
better thank you they were 

1210
01:10:00,333 --> 01:10:03,879
you're listening this is great 
just stop confusing consumers 

1211
01:10:03,879 --> 01:10:08,056
less less is more but i'm just 
ragging on everybody right now 

1212
01:10:08,056 --> 01:10:11,680
so yeah we went over i thought 
there wasn't gonna be enough 

1213
01:10:11,700 --> 01:10:13,869
about here we are in an hour and
10. 

1214
01:10:13,869 --> 01:10:16,760
That's what I get. 
You can give us a topic like, is

1215
01:10:16,760 --> 01:10:19,746
the sky blue? 
And Matt and I will find 

1216
01:10:19,746 --> 01:10:23,562
something to disagree about. 
Yeah, it's blue if it has a heel

1217
01:10:23,562 --> 01:10:27,687
belt. 
It depends how you look at the 

1218
01:10:27,687 --> 01:10:28,725
sky. 
And yes. 

1219
01:10:28,725 --> 01:10:31,839
Depends on what part of the 
earth you're from. 

1220
01:10:32,759 --> 01:10:36,230
Are you observing it from the 
earth or from the moon? 

1221
01:10:36,230 --> 01:10:39,380
How are the wildfires doing? 
Are they changing the air 

1222
01:10:39,399 --> 01:10:43,715
quality enough to as a huge part
of Canada and the U.S. burns. 

1223
01:10:43,715 --> 01:10:46,377
Oh, gosh. 
So anyway, we appreciate you 

1224
01:10:46,377 --> 01:10:48,459
listening and hope you enjoy 
this. 

1225
01:10:48,799 --> 01:10:51,701
Please, please, please let us 
know in the comments below what 

1226
01:10:51,701 --> 01:10:53,279
you're thinking. 
Please interact with us. 

1227
01:10:53,330 --> 01:10:55,979
We really, really want this to 
be an engaging conversation 

1228
01:10:55,979 --> 01:10:58,999
because we are also learning. 
We are learning new things all 

1229
01:10:58,999 --> 01:11:00,637
the time. 
We're having the same experience

1230
01:11:00,637 --> 01:11:02,749
as you are. 
We're trying to figure out what 

1231
01:11:02,749 --> 01:11:05,331
works best for us and try to 
provide some unique information 

1232
01:11:05,331 --> 01:11:07,728
out there. 
And we all know that every 

1233
01:11:07,728 --> 01:11:10,319
person is going to interact a 
little bit differently. 

1234
01:11:10,700 --> 01:11:13,164
That's why we try to have as 
many testers on shoes as 

1235
01:11:13,164 --> 01:11:15,214
possible, but also reflect back 
and going, what do we 

1236
01:11:15,214 --> 01:11:16,558
experience? 
How might that be a little 

1237
01:11:16,558 --> 01:11:18,124
different? 
So as always, please contribute 

1238
01:11:18,124 --> 01:11:20,293
if you have a different 
experience, because when people 

1239
01:11:20,293 --> 01:11:23,667
come here, we want them to be 
able to look at the reviews and 

1240
01:11:23,667 --> 01:11:26,800
go, hey, if I'm not similar to 
the reviewer, maybe I can find 

1241
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,210
something below or find somebody
else that maybe has similar 

1242
01:11:29,210 --> 01:11:32,099
biomechanics that I'm going to 
be able to agree with or learn 

1243
01:11:32,099 --> 01:11:33,779
something from, because that's 
all we want. 

1244
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:36,173
As always, you can find us on 
many different places. 

1245
01:11:36,173 --> 01:11:38,560
You can find us on a variety of 
social media platforms. 

1246
01:11:39,160 --> 01:11:41,379
This, you can see video on 
YouTube every week. 

1247
01:11:41,569 --> 01:11:44,231
This also comes on all the 
podcast platforms that you can 

1248
01:11:44,231 --> 01:11:45,680
find out there if you're 
listening. 

1249
01:11:46,100 --> 01:11:48,804
And if you're listening, we hope
whatever time of day it is, it's

1250
01:11:48,804 --> 01:11:49,839
great. 
And you're enjoying this. 

1251
01:11:50,290 --> 01:11:53,299
And we'll see you out there on 
the roads, trails, and roads.