1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,100 Welcome to the doctors of running podcast, where we a 2 00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:13,200 group of doctors of physical therapy discuss the Art and 3 00:00:13,208 --> 00:00:16,000 Science of running and the stuff that we're putting on our feet, 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:20,900 today's episode number 122, and it's actually part 2 of one long 5 00:00:20,900 --> 00:00:23,600 recording that Andre. And I did a number of weeks ago, 6 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,700 regarding winter running and treadmill running last week's 7 00:00:26,700 --> 00:00:29,800 episode number 121 was all about outdoor running. 8 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,600 Training tips, physiological changes with cold weather and 9 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,700 things like that, as well as talking about considerations for 10 00:00:35,700 --> 00:00:38,600 hydration and nutrition. So if you want to hear that, 11 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,100 it's part one of this conversation. 12 00:00:40,100 --> 00:00:42,400 So you're kind of jumping in the middle of the conversation, so 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,200 jump back to episode 121. If you want to hear about all of 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,100 that. And then today is part two of 15 00:00:49,100 --> 00:00:52,200 our conversations regarding winter running, and it is about 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:53,800 treadmill training. So we're going to be talking 17 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,100 today about biomechanical, differences in some 18 00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:59,100 physiological differences between running over ground. 19 00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:01,400 And what we know, About the difference between that and 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:03,700 running on a treadmill. So we're going to jump right 21 00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:05,600 into the conversation. Thanks for joining us. 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,300 Well, we should move on to our next, our next session, okay? 23 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:22,200 I wanna talk about treadmill running and I think this is 24 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,000 important for two reasons, it's not just as an alternative to 25 00:01:25,008 --> 00:01:26,900 running outside. A lot of times, if you're going 26 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:30,100 to go get a running analysis or any sort of assessment done, 27 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:31,400 they're going to be done on a treadmill. 28 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,700 And so we want to talk about how reliable is that in combination 29 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:38,200 with, as you incorporate treadmills into your training 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,100 routine, what sort of considerations should you have? 31 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:45,100 So you have a treadmill that you bought, I have a treadmill that 32 00:01:45,100 --> 00:01:49,000 I Bought its I just got it and it came broken. 33 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:50,900 So I haven't been able to use it yet. 34 00:01:51,700 --> 00:01:54,400 The person who set it up was like we that doesn't sound 35 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:55,800 right? We'll send a mechanic over. 36 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,100 So hopefully I'll be able to report back on it, but what kind 37 00:01:59,100 --> 00:02:01,500 of things did you look at first? When you're thinking about, I 38 00:02:01,508 --> 00:02:03,600 think I want to treadmill as an option in my house. 39 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:05,000 What kind of things do you think about? 40 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:06,800 Yeah. So there's a bunch of things 41 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,199 that are really important to look at before your by a 42 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:11,800 treadmill. So the first thing is, you have 43 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,400 to think about okay, what am I actually going to use it for 44 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:16,000 write? Like this is her Podcast. 45 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,000 So most people who are listening, if you're going to 46 00:02:18,008 --> 00:02:20,000 get a treadmill, you're going to want to run on it. 47 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:24,000 So what speeds do you run in some treadmills have a higher 48 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,500 Max Speed than others. So the treadmill I got maxes out 49 00:02:27,500 --> 00:02:31,400 at 12 miles per hour, which is five minute per mile pace and 50 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,600 that's plenty fast for me. Although it wouldn't be plenty 51 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,800 fast for some of the other members of our team, which is, 52 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,600 which is really crazy. So you have to look at well, 53 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,000 what speeds are you going to be training at and You have to make 54 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:50,000 sure that your treadmill covers that and you don't want like for 55 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,700 example if David bought a treadmill that maxed out at 12 56 00:02:53,700 --> 00:02:57,600 miles per hour he would need to be doing a lot of his training 57 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,100 at 12 miles per hour and you don't want to be using your 58 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:05,200 treadmill at its max speed for prolonged periods of time 59 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:06,700 because it's not designed for that. 60 00:03:06,700 --> 00:03:13,100 So people who need to run faster for a greater period of time, 61 00:03:13,100 --> 00:03:16,300 we'll probably need to spend more money to More powerful 62 00:03:16,300 --> 00:03:19,200 treadmill. So One, max speed is the key. 63 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,300 The next thing that I looked at was well, how much incline or 64 00:03:24,300 --> 00:03:26,800 decline? Do I want my treadmill to have? 65 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:31,000 So almost every treadmill, you know that our Runners going to 66 00:03:31,008 --> 00:03:36,100 look at has incline and depending on the type of races 67 00:03:36,100 --> 00:03:39,200 you're training for you're going to want your treadmill to be 68 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:43,200 able to go up to like a pretty steep incline, I would say at 69 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:48,000 least 12%, the treadmill. I got goes up to 15% and while I 70 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,400 almost never put it up that high it's helpful that it goes up 71 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,600 into the t low. Teens because when I do like 72 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,100 Hill, Sprints, it's nice to be able to put it at such a steep 73 00:03:59,100 --> 00:04:04,800 incline, but the other thing is not all treadmills, do decline 74 00:04:04,900 --> 00:04:08,100 or simulate downhill. But if you're training for 75 00:04:08,100 --> 00:04:13,000 Boston or Sim or any other race that has a significant amount of 76 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:16,899 downhill running, and you're going to Be doing a significant 77 00:04:16,899 --> 00:04:18,800 amount of your training on your treadmill. 78 00:04:19,500 --> 00:04:22,800 Then you want your treadmill to be able to replicate the 79 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,600 conditions that you're going to be racing in. 80 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,800 So for me, I haven't done Boston but I hopefully will someday 81 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,000 Nathan. And I were talking earlier about 82 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,900 the fact that since we live in such nice winter, climate 83 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:41,600 training for a spring Marathon, just sounds like a terrible 84 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:46,800 idea, but maybe some hero. I'll decide that it's worth it 85 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:51,700 but then I would be doing a lot of my long runs on my treadmill 86 00:04:51,700 --> 00:04:55,500 and I would need to be able to do some downhill running on 87 00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:58,000 that. And so my treadmill goes down to 88 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:05,300 minus 3%, that goes up to plus. 15%, what did your treadmill? 89 00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:08,200 But features did you get on that, Nathan? 90 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,200 Yeah. So I mine is pretty much 91 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,200 identical to what you have - the decline. 92 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:13,900 It does not have a decline option. 93 00:05:15,100 --> 00:05:19,000 I Bought it from a local store. And so I just went and try them 94 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,300 all out and just kind of liked kind of some of the one of the 95 00:05:22,300 --> 00:05:25,600 features on mine that I like is it has roles for Speed changes 96 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,900 and gate and yeah, so I can do it really fast, it's like made 97 00:05:28,900 --> 00:05:31,800 for interval training and stuff which I probably, which I should 98 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,800 do more of, but I don't love doing super hard intervals. 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,600 But so I have, I have a lot of the same features, same Speed, 100 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:43,600 Max Speed, same, Max incline. And then the other part that I 101 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,800 was looking at at the store was the Her power that I could that 102 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,300 it could handle the running for a prolonged period of time. 103 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:52,500 So I don't plan, if I can, I'm not going to run on my 104 00:05:52,500 --> 00:05:53,800 treadmill. So I think, one of the 105 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,800 Temptations is, like, looking at your training plan and being 106 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,400 like, Oh, I run 60, 70 80 miles a week. 107 00:06:00,400 --> 00:06:03,200 I need a treadmill that can handle 60, 70, 80 miles a week. 108 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,700 That's probably not true. If you plan on running outside 109 00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,600 at all, you probably need it for specific runs. 110 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:12,200 Whether it's workouts in the winter or long runs in the 111 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,200 winter but you don't you don't need it to be that commercial. 112 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:18,700 I think that was one of the things that was a when I was 113 00:06:18,700 --> 00:06:20,700 talking to the person in the store was a little bit of a 114 00:06:20,700 --> 00:06:23,300 mismatch between us, was he knew how much I Ran? 115 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:25,900 So he was like, oh you're going to need all of these features 116 00:06:25,900 --> 00:06:29,800 for this treadmill and this power but I probably would 117 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,300 didn't need those. The other thing that I got a lot 118 00:06:32,300 --> 00:06:34,200 of my information from you because you bought a treadmill 119 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,400 before I did but I think you talked about the width of the 120 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,900 the belt as well being important and I not necessarily important 121 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:43,700 but some did consider. So I got one that was 22 inches 122 00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:45,200 wide just to have a little bit more. 123 00:06:45,300 --> 00:06:48,500 Breath on each side of me. So when I'm using it it doesn't 124 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:51,800 feel like I'm super constrained, right? 125 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:55,600 Yeah, and when I think my treadmill belt is 20 inches and 126 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,700 I'm never looking at my feet when I run on the treadmill and 127 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:01,000 that's what you want, you wanted to be, like you're running 128 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:06,100 outside and of course that will improve the more familiar, you 129 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:08,800 are with running on a treadmill. I've been doing treadmill 130 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,300 running since I was a little kid, so it comes naturally to 131 00:07:12,300 --> 00:07:16,400 me, but if someone has never run on a treadmill, Well it's going 132 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:18,400 to take some time to get used to it. 133 00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:22,300 Maybe you don't at first like watch movies while you're 134 00:07:22,300 --> 00:07:25,900 running on the phone, pay a little more attention to what 135 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:28,300 you're doing but yeah having the wider belt, just gives you a 136 00:07:28,308 --> 00:07:30,800 little more wiggle room so you don't end up. 137 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,900 Stepping on the sides. One thing that I read when I was 138 00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:37,900 researching before I bought my treadmill, a couple years ago, 139 00:07:38,300 --> 00:07:41,800 was they kind of recommend that for serious Runners? 140 00:07:42,500 --> 00:07:46,000 Treadmill motor power is expressed in Continuous 141 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:51,200 horsepower or CHP and you won a treadmill that it can at least 142 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:56,700 you 3.0 again, depending how fast you're running, how often 143 00:07:56,700 --> 00:07:59,100 you're going to run on it, how long your runs are? 144 00:07:59,300 --> 00:08:01,500 You can probably get away with a little bit lower. 145 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:06,000 But being at least, at 3.0 continuous horsepower is an 146 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:10,200 important metric to look at the one that I ended up getting is 147 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,400 3.25. And really, I've had zero 148 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,500 issues. Feeling like it's sluggish. 149 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:23,000 When I'm increasing my speed, it does what I wanted to do without 150 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,000 issue, and that's really the key and that it works with what 151 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,900 you're going to use it for. Yeah, the concern with too low 152 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:33,600 of a continuous horsepower is the when you have your foot on 153 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,799 the, on the Belt, it's that it would slow down as you're in 154 00:08:36,799 --> 00:08:39,799 that contact phase. And so considering maybe, you 155 00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:44,800 know what type of Runner you are, could be like how heavy you 156 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,800 hit. Treadmills or hit the ground and 157 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,000 that kind of thing, like, could be one of those factors. 158 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,400 But, yeah, that's a, that's probably one of the more 159 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:56,100 important ones to hit at least that may be around that minimum 160 00:08:56,900 --> 00:08:59,400 so that you can have a pleasant experience and not feel like 161 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,800 it's lagging on you every time your foot hits the ground, 162 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:02,900 right? Yeah. 163 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,500 And then other features of treadmills that, you know, now 164 00:09:06,500 --> 00:09:10,200 that we're in the 21st century to consider is a lot of 165 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,900 treadmills are compatible with training apps. 166 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:17,600 Like I Fedor pellet honors with As a cyclist. 167 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,400 I really love Swift. I don't love it as much for 168 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,500 running. My treadmill came with a year 169 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:27,100 free membership to iFit, which I actually really like because 170 00:09:27,100 --> 00:09:31,500 it's video courses. Like the, I think they feel most 171 00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:34,000 of them with drone. So they're filming one of their 172 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:38,700 trainers running, say the Boston Marathon or New York or Chicago, 173 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:44,200 so you can kind of run the race alongside them, and I find that 174 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:48,200 very engaging On the treadmill, Swift on the treadmill and I 175 00:09:48,208 --> 00:09:51,300 know Nathan, you've tried Swift and wonder had it. 176 00:09:51,300 --> 00:09:55,000 Yeah. But Swift on the treadmill. 177 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:59,000 Swift doesn't adjust your incline based on the course. 178 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,600 You're running the way that cycling on Swift. 179 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,300 Does with a smart trainer. So it is more just kind of like, 180 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:09,700 at least for me watching your avatar run in an imaginary 181 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:12,700 world. And I think maybe I'm spoiled 182 00:10:12,700 --> 00:10:15,100 with the much more immersive experience. 183 00:10:15,300 --> 00:10:18,700 That you get when you're writing in Swift on a smart trainer. 184 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,100 But I think if people haven't had that experience with 185 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:26,900 cycling's with. I think running Swift can be a 186 00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:30,400 cool way to pass the time. The nice thing about running 187 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,400 Swift is it's free, like there. You don't have to pay monthly to 188 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,500 do the running feature. You just like I mean if you want 189 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,000 for me it was nice to not be staring at a wall because I my 190 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,900 options were like, staring at a wall or watching an avatar 191 00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:44,800 running fake world. I guess that was maybe slightly 192 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,500 better. Do I still hate the treadmill? 193 00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:47,900 Absolutely. Yeah. 194 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:50,400 But I'm excited about with the treadmill is Stevens. 195 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,500 Point is Superflat. Y'all have probably heard me 196 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,200 talk about this before, but I went on a 22 Mile or and had 100 197 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,200 feet of elevation gain, and I sought out the hills in town. 198 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,100 I'll actually get the Run Hills on the treadmill. 199 00:11:00,100 --> 00:11:04,600 That'll be kind of fun. So exciting, so exciting. 200 00:11:04,900 --> 00:11:09,000 So let's let's talk about a couple things to consider about 201 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,400 when you're training on a treadmill. 202 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:11,800 Because we're going to talk a little bit about like training 203 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,400 considerations, and then we're going to look at biomechanics in 204 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:16,500 the differences. Some studies that have been put 205 00:11:16,500 --> 00:11:18,600 out with by mechanical differences between the two. 206 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:21,500 So Andrew why don't you just take this kind of next phase and 207 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:24,900 talk about kind of what we know about accuracy of these 208 00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:26,900 treadmill speeds. How we should approach training 209 00:11:26,900 --> 00:11:28,000 on a treadmill that kind of thing? 210 00:11:28,500 --> 00:11:32,300 All right so first of all your treadmill speed is probably not 211 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:34,800 accurate. So now your treadmill says 212 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:40,400 you're running a let's say 7 mph and you may or may not actually 213 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,100 be the belt might actually not be moving at that. 214 00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:46,800 Speed the reason like Nathan Mentioned before is on any 215 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:50,200 treadmill when your foot and we're talking about motorized 216 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:53,300 treadmills here, non-motorized treadmills are a whole nother 217 00:11:53,300 --> 00:11:56,800 ballgame which maybe we will discuss in another episode. 218 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:00,800 But today we're just talking about motorized so good point on 219 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,000 a motorized treadmill when your foot hits the belt, the belt 220 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:07,400 slows down and then when you push off and your foot comes off 221 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,100 the belt, and neither feet are on the ground, the belt speeds 222 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:15,100 up. So, the speed of the belt is all 223 00:12:15,300 --> 00:12:19,600 Most never actually what the display on the treadmill says. 224 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,000 So there are different ways of kind of figuring out what the 225 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,900 speed of the belt actually is or what, the speed of your body 226 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:30,600 actually is. So a lot of companies make foot 227 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,300 pods now that help give more accurate speed data. 228 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:40,000 Garmin has one chorus has one. You can use the stride power 229 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,000 meter foot pod. That also helps give more 230 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,200 accurate speed data. On what I use on the treadmill 231 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:53,200 do is something called a run and it's made by North Pole 232 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:58,400 endurance, which is just a small company that makes like cool 233 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:05,100 techy things for exercise. So this has a little holder that 234 00:13:05,100 --> 00:13:08,400 goes on the side, rail of the treadmill. 235 00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:12,200 And it's hard to see here. But there are basically two 236 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:18,000 Optical sensors here and here So the Run knows the distance 237 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,100 between the two sensors and when you install this on your 238 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:28,200 treadmill, you also put a few of these like silver adhesive 239 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:33,200 strips on your treadmill belt and then the sensor picks up 240 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,500 that and it knows the distance between the two sensors. 241 00:13:37,500 --> 00:13:39,300 So it knows how fast your belt is. 242 00:13:39,300 --> 00:13:44,500 Moving those adhesive strips, don't stick very well. 243 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:48,500 So the highwomen, Pack that I found from DC Rainmaker actually 244 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:52,600 was to just put wite-out on your belt and of course that works a 245 00:13:52,608 --> 00:13:57,400 lot better. So the Run communicates with 246 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,100 your watch like a foot pod. So when I'm running on my 247 00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:06,800 treadmill, I'm getting my speed data from the run and I ignore 248 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:11,100 what my treadmill actually says. And it's actually been really 249 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:16,300 instructive to see just how accurate Inaccurate, my 250 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:21,500 treadmill is in terms of speed and what I found is at Paces 251 00:14:21,500 --> 00:14:23,900 like slower than eight minute pace. 252 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,700 It's pretty accurate but pace is faster than that. 253 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:31,800 It's too fast. And the other thing that I found 254 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:36,200 is that let's say I'm just doing an easy run where like I said it 255 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,900 at one pace and keep it there, the whole run, the pace stays 256 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:44,600 pretty steady, but when I'm doing intervals, let's say I've 257 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,300 warmed up. But an easy pace. 258 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:50,300 So, the pace with the Run told me was pretty consistent with 259 00:14:50,300 --> 00:14:54,800 what the treadmill is saying, but then, I speed up and the 260 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,400 pace then is maybe a little fast. 261 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:00,900 But then when I slow back down for, like the recovery part, 262 00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:04,900 it's much faster than it was during my warm up. 263 00:15:05,300 --> 00:15:09,100 So it's like, as soon as the motor gets warmed up or when I 264 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:13,200 start moving back and forth between Paces, that's when the 265 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:20,000 speed gets less accurate. And it's so inaccurate that like 266 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,500 let's say I'm doing like eight intervals. 267 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,900 I have to use a different speed on the treadmill for different 268 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,800 intervals to get the pace that I'm going for. 269 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,500 So it's just it's interesting and again and we'll talk about 270 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:40,000 this more in a little bit, but just because the belt is moving 271 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,000 at that pace doesn't mean that that's the same as you running 272 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,700 outside at that pace because Of the lack of wind resistance, but 273 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,700 what the run is telling me is what my actual belt speed is. 274 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,400 And what has become very clear to me, is the belt. 275 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,500 Speed does, not always agree with what the treadmill says, 276 00:15:59,500 --> 00:16:02,800 the speed is, right? And I've been running with the 277 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:08,100 kouros Pod to just test it out a little bit and I wish I had 278 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:11,400 something else to compare the data of like how accurate is the 279 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,000 Pod to is still a question for me? 280 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:16,400 I don't know. But I know that the Pod to Speed 281 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,400 is very different than each treadmill that I've ran on. 282 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:23,500 So I I trained some Runners at a gym so I ran on their treadmills 283 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,000 friend of my parents treadmill and every single one is off by a 284 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,200 pretty significant margin. I had I had the speed of the 285 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,000 treadmill running at an 8:30 Pace at my parents house, but my 286 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,800 pod said I was at an 850. So I was like 20 minute 20 287 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,500 seconds per mile off in different directions. 288 00:16:42,500 --> 00:16:45,000 So the ones at the gym it said I was going a lot faster. 289 00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:46,300 Than I was. So it really fascinating. 290 00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:50,200 Like you said, can't trust, can't trust your treadmill, 291 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,400 right? And I think it all comes down to 292 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,100 again, like we were talking about running in cold weather or 293 00:16:56,100 --> 00:17:00,300 running in wind or running in hot weather, you don't be 294 00:17:00,300 --> 00:17:03,500 beholdin to the number on your watch. 295 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:07,800 It's about how the effort feels. So if you're on your treadmill 296 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,200 and you're doing an easier on and that's supposed to be at 297 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:15,099 8:30 Pace, but it just feels hard like it feels more like 298 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,500 Like you know easy Tempo. Don't keep running at that pace. 299 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:23,300 Just because your treadmill says that you're doing 8:30, pays 300 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:29,000 it's about your body, not like the number on the treadmill, so 301 00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:34,600 it is good again to learn what different zones feel like and 302 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:38,400 have enough confidence in your training that you don't need to 303 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:42,500 blindly follow the numbers. But to actually listen to your 304 00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,800 body and work out based on effort. 305 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,000 Because in that case, you don't even need one of these pods or 306 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:52,900 the Run thing you know you just have to go in by effort it does. 307 00:17:52,900 --> 00:17:55,100 I guess it doesn't matter what your trade not seeing your speed 308 00:17:55,100 --> 00:17:57,900 is because you're going to get the physiological effort that 309 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:01,000 you need out of the run. And I'm just a couple other like 310 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,400 weird quirky. Things about treadmills is like 311 00:18:03,500 --> 00:18:06,900 I just get so hot running on treadmill because it feel it 312 00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:08,300 because it's feels like the wind. 313 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,900 I mean you don't run into the are you staying in one spot. 314 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:15,300 So it feels so stagnant and I always get so sweaty and I The 315 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:18,000 other things you do to help with that, of course. 316 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,800 Well, so again before I, you know, rediscovered running, I 317 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,700 was a professional cyclist and look at another kid. 318 00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:31,300 If the weather was bad, I still had like a four-hour ride to do 319 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:36,500 and I needed to do it full time. So there are some really great 320 00:18:36,500 --> 00:18:39,500 fans that you can use for indoor training. 321 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:44,200 Like there are exercise companies that make like indoor 322 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:50,000 work out Cific fans that are like, $200, don't buy those, you 323 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:56,300 can buy a Lasko fan on Amazon for $50 and it is just as 324 00:18:56,300 --> 00:19:00,400 powerful as those two hundred dollar fans that are designed 325 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,100 for indoor working. Yes. 326 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:06,100 So my husband and I each have one of these Lasko Fans. 327 00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:09,700 I don't remember the model name but we can put it in the 328 00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:13,900 description later. Yeah, and this fan is like 329 00:19:13,900 --> 00:19:18,100 having a tornado To get yours. And what's nice about it is it's 330 00:19:18,100 --> 00:19:21,300 kind of it looks like a fan that you would use if you had like a 331 00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:25,700 flood in your house to like dry you know the floor like a box 332 00:19:25,700 --> 00:19:28,200 fan kind of thing. No it's all right. 333 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:32,500 You can adjust the nozzle so you can stir up. 334 00:19:32,700 --> 00:19:34,600 See, I don't have to put it on anything. 335 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,400 It's on the floor in front of my treadmill and I have it pointing 336 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:42,200 up and it blows directly up at like my chest and face. 337 00:19:42,500 --> 00:19:44,500 Yeah. So I have one there and that's 338 00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:46,000 what I use. For all my runs. 339 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,000 But if I'm doing like a workout, I take my husband's fan and I 340 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,100 put it off to the side. So, now, I've got like this, you 341 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:57,800 know, tunnel of wind. Keeping me cool. 342 00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:00,800 Oh sure. Sometimes I don't do that 343 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,200 though, because especially, if let's say it's, you know, late 344 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,000 winter, early spring racing season is coming and I know that 345 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,400 warm weather is coming. You've got to get your body 346 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,000 acclimated to being warm and running inside. 347 00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:21,400 I'd with no fan or with like a gentle fan is a really good way 348 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,000 to help your buddy acclimate to warmer weather running. 349 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,900 So you can you can kind of use the treadmill as a way to help 350 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,000 you prepare for certain race conditions. 351 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:36,200 But again you need to be careful that you don't like overheat 352 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,400 yourself or make yourself sick or injured from being too, 353 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:42,800 right? Right. 354 00:20:43,500 --> 00:20:46,700 Do you change your we're on treadmills or do you find 355 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:49,400 certain shoes work better? Is it kind of the same in terms 356 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,700 of Footwear selection? It's pretty much the same thing. 357 00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,900 The only main thing that I look at some shoes have minimal 358 00:20:56,900 --> 00:21:01,500 outsole, like my favorite shoe, the beacon rebounds because it 359 00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:03,900 does not have a lot of rubber coverage on the outsole. 360 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,700 It's gone yet mentioned on every tree every podcast that she's on 361 00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:13,000 for the rest of you turn around. Absolutely my treadmill. 362 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:16,900 Ate my beacons up. Like it just wore them out 363 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:19,200 because we're aisle and there's no rubber. 364 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:23,000 So you do. I think that should that's my 365 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:24,500 main consideration. All right. 366 00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:26,800 What shoes do I not want to ruin? 367 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,300 So sure. I choose shoes that have a lot 368 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:32,900 of rubber. That's what I know someone 369 00:21:32,900 --> 00:21:35,100 asked. I can't remember if it was like 370 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,900 an email to us, but like, should you train in Super Shoes on the 371 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:42,900 treadmill? You can again, it depends if you 372 00:21:42,900 --> 00:21:45,600 want to ruin them or not because most, Super Shoes. 373 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:50,300 Don't have very extensive rubber coverage but let's say you're 374 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,600 training for a spring marathon and most of your training is 375 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,300 going to be indoors on the treadmill. 376 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,000 You should do some of your runs in your Super Shoes, to get your 377 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:05,300 body prepared to race in those. But again for me it's more I 378 00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:08,100 don't want to like prematurely wear out the outsole. 379 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,000 How about you are there shoes that you like or don't like on 380 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,000 treadmills, you know, I think from a personal experience. 381 00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,200 In standpoint, I'm still pretty minimal because I just got my 382 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,700 own recently. So I've ran on, you know, I 383 00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:24,300 probably ran as much as any other Runners ran on treadmills. 384 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:28,300 So I have found though in the time where I've been I've been 385 00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:31,100 training more people in a gym and on treadmills we run next to 386 00:22:31,100 --> 00:22:33,600 each other and stuff and it's been a lot of fun in that I have 387 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,900 noticed that I prefer shoe that has a little bit more cushion on 388 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:40,000 the treadmill which feels counterintuitive to me because 389 00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,300 treadmills the commercial treadmills have some give to 390 00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:47,600 them instead of being as firm. As the surface but it maybe it 391 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,000 maybe I'll learn more of her time that there's like a sweet 392 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,900 spot but like I was running in the levitate on the treadmill 393 00:22:52,900 --> 00:22:56,500 and it felt really clunky and blocky on there compared to 394 00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,900 running over ground with the levitate versus when I was 395 00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:03,900 running in the SL from Adidas. There something about the 396 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:07,700 cushioning between those two just felt a lot more smooth and 397 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:11,700 less lb e on the treadmill. Just because I felt like I was 398 00:23:11,700 --> 00:23:14,900 really loud in the levitate and it just felt uncomfortable. 399 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,200 Well, but I think I have to have a lot more testing to do to 400 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,000 figure out what I like on it. I noticed that in the levitate 401 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,300 to on the treadmill to it, did it just felt very heavy and kind 402 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:29,300 of dead on the treadmill and it didn't feel that severe 403 00:23:29,300 --> 00:23:31,300 Outdoors. Yes, agree. 404 00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,000 Because you I felt like, maybe that's it, like, it's a shoe 405 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:36,500 that's designed to feel more connected. 406 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,400 That's their connection line, right? 407 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:41,200 That they want you to feel connected to the ground and I 408 00:23:41,208 --> 00:23:45,700 think When you're trying to connect to an unstable surface 409 00:23:45,700 --> 00:23:48,700 like a treadmill or a more compliant surface, maybe that 410 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:50,600 felt weird that combination but yeah. 411 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:54,200 Anyway, yeah, it's interesting but let's talk about some of the 412 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,000 fun stuff I think this is where this is where the the sciency 413 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,500 side of us gets a little bit more excited and talking about 414 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,000 biomechanics on a treadmill versus biomechanics outdoors. 415 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,800 I do a lot of running analysis and a question I get from people 416 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:10,000 all the time. Like is this going to actually 417 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:11,500 tell? I feel like they say, I feel 418 00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:12,900 like I run different on a treadmill. 419 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,800 Is this going to actually tell you what you need to know? 420 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,100 So, let's talk a little bit about what we know about 421 00:24:18,100 --> 00:24:20,100 biomechanics on treadmills. Yeah. 422 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,400 So there is actually a really great article published in 2020 423 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,700 by Van haaren. Al it's both, a systematic 424 00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:33,700 review and a Meta Meta analysis, which means it's like the 425 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:35,700 highest level of evidence possible. 426 00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:39,900 Because this is a study that looks at multiple studies on a 427 00:24:39,908 --> 00:24:42,900 given topic, combines all the data. 428 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,200 And analyzes various variables and makes conclusions. 429 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:50,700 So, instead of most studies where you're looking at, like 430 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:55,000 one group of subjects under a given test condition. 431 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,600 This is like looking at, okay, what's all of the evidence out 432 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:03,600 there and combining all of it? Which can give more powerful 433 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:09,200 observations. So, this article stated that 434 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,600 there are several things that can affect your Annex running on 435 00:25:13,608 --> 00:25:16,500 the treadmill and I think the number one thing is what you 436 00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:19,600 mentioned is how familiar you are with running on the 437 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,500 treadmill. So if somebody's coming in for 438 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:26,100 gait analysis on the treadmill but they do all of their running 439 00:25:26,100 --> 00:25:29,000 outside. They're going to need time to 440 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,800 become familiar with how it feels to run on a treadmill 441 00:25:33,100 --> 00:25:37,500 before you do the gait analysis. So that the data that you get is 442 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:42,600 actually valid. One thing that I read is it says 443 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,400 it takes About eight to nine minutes of running on a 444 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,200 treadmill, for someone to get familiar enough that their gate 445 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,400 is not going to be significantly different on the treadmill 446 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,500 versus outside. Of course, that's going to every 447 00:25:55,500 --> 00:25:58,600 person is different. I think if you had someone who 448 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:05,200 has had a balance issue or has a visual issue or, you know, for 449 00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:08,100 some reason is afraid of treadmills, maybe they've fallen 450 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:12,800 in the past, then those people are probably going to need more 451 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,800 Time to get familiar with running on a treadmill but in 452 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:22,100 general about 8 or 9 minutes of running on one helps, you get 453 00:26:22,100 --> 00:26:25,200 familiar with it so that your gate isn't significantly 454 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,100 different. Your visual Focus can affect 455 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:31,400 your biomechanics running on a treadmill. 456 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,300 Meaning like if you're watching TV or even if you're like 457 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:39,300 running on Swift, that can change how you're running 458 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:42,800 because you're watching either movie and not really paying 459 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,100 attention. Listen to what your body is 460 00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:47,600 doing, or because you're watching your avatar in this 461 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:52,200 imaginary world, you're less connected to the real world that 462 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,800 you're running in and can affect how you run the belt. 463 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,700 Dimensions can also affect your gait mechanics, specifically the 464 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:05,500 length of the belt. If you think about running the 465 00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:09,200 faster you run the longer, your stride is going to be and you 466 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,800 don't want your stride to be longer than the available bill. 467 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,400 At length. So what I read was 60 inches for 468 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,800 length is good for most people, but if you're above six feet 469 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,700 tall, you're actually want to go a little bit longer than 60 470 00:27:22,700 --> 00:27:25,100 inches. I think 65 is what they 471 00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:30,200 recommend. The hardness of the surface of 472 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,000 the treadmill. Can change your gait 473 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000 characteristic. So, some treadmills are really 474 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,500 soft and some treadmills are pretty firm. 475 00:27:38,500 --> 00:27:42,700 Like, they feel pretty much like running outside but just as We 476 00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:46,800 Know, The softness or hardness of a surface Outdoors, whether 477 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,800 you're running on a track or concrete or dirt. 478 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,400 That's going to change how you land the softness of a treadmill 479 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,500 is also going to change how you land. 480 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:00,800 And then of course, the specific treadmill model can affect your 481 00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:03,100 biomechanics. If you're running on a treadmill 482 00:28:03,100 --> 00:28:07,700 that has like a curved surface or has the slats, like, what you 483 00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:10,300 would see? Like, on a Wood Way versus a 484 00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:12,800 lower-level treadmill where you're just on the bill? 485 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,000 That can all affect biomechanics. 486 00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:19,300 Did I leave anything out Nathan? Is there anything else you can 487 00:28:19,900 --> 00:28:22,800 think of that can affect your biomechanics on a treadmill? 488 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,100 No, I think I think those are the main things. 489 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:29,300 I've had people, though, we're one guy in particular this past 490 00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:31,200 fall, who's just? Never as ran on a treadmill 491 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,000 before and I put them on there to do a good analysis and he 492 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,000 was, it was just like, nah, we're not going to do this 493 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,700 because it was. So it was just very, very 494 00:28:39,700 --> 00:28:43,100 difficult. And so I hopped on a bike and It 495 00:28:43,100 --> 00:28:46,600 took video next to him running outside, like he's so I just did 496 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,000 that because I figured I can do that with anybody, but I think 497 00:28:50,700 --> 00:28:53,400 in scenarios like that where people feel remarkably 498 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,100 uncomfortable. I will, I will accommodate to 499 00:28:56,108 --> 00:28:59,000 that or if they just don't want to feel like I'd prefer to get 500 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,600 it over ground. Like I do it that way, but I 501 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,000 think, no, I think you hit you hit pretty much everything. 502 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,900 And I think from a, there's kind of, like, two pieces in my mind. 503 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,000 Like, there's the biomechanical differences can go through, but 504 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,600 there's also like, The workload differences and just because 505 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,800 something doesn't look different from an angles perspective. 506 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,200 You might have to use a different strategy to move 507 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,200 forward. So but yeah. 508 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,800 So I know, I think you hit a lot of stuff that's good. 509 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,600 So to get into a little more what this systematic review and 510 00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,600 meta-analysis found. So this article looked at 33 511 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:42,600 studies and those studies had a total of 490 for participants. 512 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:45,600 So, When you do either a systematic review or 513 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,700 meta-analysis, you and maths talked about the one that he's 514 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:52,800 done for his dissertation but it's quite a long process 515 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,200 because you're basically casting this really wide net in all of 516 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,200 the medical and biomechanical, literature for certain Search 517 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,600 terms and it usually results in finding thousands of Articles. 518 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,000 And then you come up with inclusion criteria and exclusion 519 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:15,000 criteria because of course you don't Want, like these people, 520 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:18,800 these researchers wanted to just look at motorized treadmills, so 521 00:30:19,100 --> 00:30:22,800 they had to exclude non-motorized treadmills and so, 522 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:24,600 you've gotten kind of narrow it down. 523 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:29,500 It's kind of like a funnel until you get to the studies that have 524 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:33,500 the criteria you want. Don't have the criteria you 525 00:30:33,500 --> 00:30:40,100 don't want and are going to give you valid data for your 526 00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:43,700 analysis. So the studies That they chose 527 00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:46,900 these 33 studies compared running on a motorized 528 00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:51,400 treadmill, either to running on a track running on concrete or 529 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,000 running on a lab run away. And of course, we know that 530 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,500 people's gate by mechanics can be a little bit different 531 00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:59,200 depending on what surface there in. 532 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:04,000 I think, particularly on a lab Runway because you just never 533 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,700 feel like you can open up your stride. 534 00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:10,000 When, you know, you've only got like 20 or 30 feet to run. 535 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,600 But that being said, Said. And so these authors looked at 536 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,700 many different parameters but their overall conclusion, was 537 00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:24,800 that the outcome measures were larger largely, the same between 538 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,800 running on a motorized treadmill and over ground running, meaning 539 00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,700 joint, angles, muscle activity forces. 540 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,500 There were really weren't many significant differences between 541 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,600 running on the treadmill and running over ground, which I 542 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,000 think. A lot of people will be 543 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,200 surprising because I think that kind of in like the mainstream 544 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,900 running world, people have heard that when you run on a motorized 545 00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:56,900 treadmill, the belt, pushes your leg back. 546 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,900 So it reduces how much hip extension you need and it 547 00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,700 reduces how much your hamstrings work. 548 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,800 I've heard that a number of times and I've actually read a 549 00:32:08,808 --> 00:32:12,500 number of like you know, not scientific articles but just 550 00:32:12,500 --> 00:32:15,000 like Like running articles that say then. 551 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,400 So it's nice to know that people who actually analyzed research. 552 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:23,500 Did not find a significant difference in that regard. 553 00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:29,600 So they did find some small differences between running on 554 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,000 the treadmill compared to over ground running. 555 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:36,100 So on the treadmill they found that people had decreased 556 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:40,200 vertical displacement, meaning like essentially how much you 557 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:46,200 move up and down as you run, so, People who have watches or heart 558 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:51,500 rate monitor strips, that give you, gait parameters, that's 559 00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,200 your vertical oscillation number that you're getting. 560 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,300 So like I have a Garmin HR, I'm Pro that gives me that data, 561 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,600 these researchers found decreased vertical, displacement 562 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,400 on the treadmill, which I think in a way makes sense. 563 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:08,900 They used pretty firm treadmills. 564 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:13,400 But even so a treadmill is going to have a little bit of give 565 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,300 compared to say concrete or even attract. 566 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,800 Another small difference, they found was for people running on 567 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,400 a treadmill. There was a slight increase in 568 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,900 knee, flexion or knee bending at initial contact. 569 00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:36,300 So, like when your foot first hits the ground or first hits 570 00:33:36,300 --> 00:33:41,400 the treadmill, your knee or the subjects knees were slightly 571 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,200 more bent, as Compared to when they were running over ground, 572 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:51,100 they also found an overall decrease in the total amount of 573 00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:54,600 knee, flexion, range of motion during stance phase, meaning 574 00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:58,900 from when your foot initially hits the treadmill to, when you 575 00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:04,800 push off, how much does your knee move through bending and 576 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,600 straightening, and they found that people are running on a 577 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,000 treadmill. Had a smaller total knee, 578 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:15,000 flexion range of motion. As compared to running outside 579 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,400 the other thing that they found, which kind of helps to explain 580 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,800 this difference in knee. Flexion range of motion, is that 581 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,600 there was a very slight decrease in the angle between the foot 582 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,000 and the ground at initial contact. 583 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,699 So if you think about when somebody's running, if someone's 584 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:37,800 a heel Striker, when they land they land on their heel and 585 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,900 their foot is up like this, that's dorsiflexion. 586 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:46,199 So the Searchers found that in these 33 studies, people are 587 00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,400 running on a treadmill, their foot was a little bit less 588 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:54,400 dorsiflexed or their toes were up a little bit less that as 589 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:59,200 compared to when they ran over ground outside on concrete, the 590 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:05,100 tracker on the lab Runway and we know that if you decrease the 591 00:35:05,100 --> 00:35:09,500 foot ground angle, at initial contact, the body is going to 592 00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,800 compensate by increasing how bent your knees. 593 00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:17,100 So the their first findings regarding the amount of knee 594 00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:21,200 flexion kind of pair with what they found with the decreased 595 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,000 foot grounding oil. And again, all of these findings 596 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:29,100 were small, they were statistically significant, but 597 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,700 they weren't big enough that they felt that this made 598 00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:36,700 treadmill running significantly by mechanically different than 599 00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:41,300 running outside. Another thing they found was on 600 00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:45,300 the treadmill, there was a decreased Peak propulsive Force. 601 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:51,800 So meaning, when you're pushing off your the subjects leg 602 00:35:51,900 --> 00:35:57,500 produced a lower Peak Force than when they were running outside 603 00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:01,200 and I think that makes sense because the belt is moving. 604 00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:05,600 So, and that kind of pairs with what people think the big 605 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,000 difference in running on a treadmill is as Her to running 606 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,100 outside. So you don't have to produce as 607 00:36:12,100 --> 00:36:16,400 high of a force to push off because the belt is helping you 608 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,800 a little bit and then finally just a couple other minimal 609 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:27,000 findings, they did find a little more ankle joint movement in 610 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:28,300 What's called the sagittal plane. 611 00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:33,000 So flexing up, or flexing down for pts dorsiflexion and plantar 612 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:38,300 flexion, they found a very slightly increased ground. 613 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:43,400 And contact time that means how long your foot is on the ground 614 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,000 with each stride. And then they found that in 615 00:36:47,008 --> 00:36:51,200 these 33 studies, there were conflicting findings for the 616 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,000 amount of muscle activity, but overall, the trend was for lower 617 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:58,600 activity in most of the muscles investigated. 618 00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:03,000 So, in the end, their conclusion was that even though they found 619 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:07,700 these slight differences running on a treadmill is very 620 00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,100 biomechanical. Similar to running over ground. 621 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,900 So when you're training, if you have to use a treadmill and you 622 00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:18,400 can be confident that you're still, you're still training the 623 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,900 right things. But at the same time, there's 624 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,800 this principle that we talked about in PT and not just about 625 00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,100 running, but about everything. And that's the specificity 626 00:37:28,100 --> 00:37:32,100 principle. So the vast majority of us, if 627 00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:37,100 we race, don't do treadmill races, we do races outside. 628 00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:43,800 So so if you want, if we, if we're saying humans, if we want 629 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:48,400 to be our best running outside, we can't just run on a 630 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,600 treadmill. And, you know, I don't think 631 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,900 most people do that. So if you're going to race 632 00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:58,100 outside and make sure that you get some outside runs and I 633 00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:01,500 think that's more important for people who maybe live in very 634 00:38:01,500 --> 00:38:05,300 cold climates and then are planning on doing like a really 635 00:38:05,300 --> 00:38:09,200 early spring race. You still need to Outdoors. 636 00:38:09,300 --> 00:38:13,200 So you can't do every run on the treadmill and expect to be 637 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,700 prepared for doing a race outside, especially if it's a 638 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,400 longer race, like a half marathon or a full Marathon. 639 00:38:20,900 --> 00:38:24,500 Do you have any thoughts about this study? 640 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:28,300 Anything that you've noticed? You know, you have the benefit 641 00:38:28,300 --> 00:38:31,800 of having done, gait analysis on, lots and lots of people. 642 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,500 So what have you noticed? I think, I think a couple things 643 00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,300 that just pop out from this study, what? 644 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,900 One of the think it's good news that it's similar enough that 645 00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:43,800 you can get reliable data from a gait analysis on a treadmill 646 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,300 because that's way easier than doing something over ground. 647 00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:49,600 So I'd say that's just good news for all of us who are interested 648 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,000 in having that sort of data collected. 649 00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:56,400 I also think it helps it helps people to have a study like this 650 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,400 who are like is this data going to be accurate? 651 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,000 You can tell yes. Like this will be accurate for 652 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,300 you because of this this data and that has helped like the 653 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:07,600 runners that I've been doing these analysis on. 654 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,400 Like it's been helpful. For them to know that. 655 00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:13,200 And the other thing that this study helps with to a lot of the 656 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,400 changes that you see between treadmill and overground. 657 00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:22,000 What let's just let's take there was the foot ground angle at 658 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,300 initial contact so on a treadmill that's decreased that 659 00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:27,500 means it would be greater over ground. 660 00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:30,100 That is one of those metrics that we do. 661 00:39:30,100 --> 00:39:32,400 Look at when it comes to something like over-striding. 662 00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,700 So a lot of the changes on the treadmill. 663 00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:38,200 Almost are like quote-unquote improvements in running gait 664 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,300 Compared to what you would see, overground not across the board 665 00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,600 but a lot of them would make some of somebody's false better 666 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,400 on the treadmill. So if we catch it on the 667 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:50,800 treadmill, it's going to be potentially even more pronounced 668 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:54,000 over ground, which again is a helpful thing where it's not the 669 00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:55,900 other way where it's not like the treadmill. 670 00:39:55,900 --> 00:39:59,100 Induces, all of these running gait mechanics that we wouldn't 671 00:39:59,100 --> 00:40:02,300 anticipate unless it's somebody who's doing all of their running 672 00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:04,300 on a treadmill, then you'd want it assess their anyway. 673 00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:06,900 But I think that those were the things that popped out and that 674 00:40:06,900 --> 00:40:09,200 are helpful to know that the Things that we're seeing are 675 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:12,500 minimal differences that probably with the type of, like 676 00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:15,700 I use a 2d system that I'm doing analysis with. 677 00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:20,300 I bet my my, you know, error of measurement is greater than the 678 00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:22,400 statistically significant difference that they found for a 679 00:40:22,408 --> 00:40:26,700 lot of these measurements. Anyway, so no, I think it was, 680 00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:29,400 it's just helpful to have something like this to kind of 681 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,000 round everything out. And kind of say, we can push 682 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:35,900 forward with this method of gathering data and using 683 00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:38,500 something for training. I know that there's the The 684 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,700 conflicting findings for the amplitude of muscle activity, 685 00:40:42,100 --> 00:40:46,700 someone who I love to follow is Rich Willie, he is a researcher 686 00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:50,100 in Montana, he taught the running curriculum for me when I 687 00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:52,900 was at the University of Delaware and he worked with, 688 00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:55,400 he's just I think he's a pretty smart guy when it comes to 689 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,100 running and and research. You can follow his Instagram. 690 00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:01,800 I think it's Montana running lab or something like that. 691 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,500 So yeah, he's awesome. He just puts out, super 692 00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:08,200 thoughtful and helpful posts, and he just had one out on. 693 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,300 Calf, use of different types of things and treadmill running for 694 00:41:11,300 --> 00:41:14,600 what he was looking at. Did find some increase in calf 695 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,300 use, which would make sense with some of the increased sagittal 696 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,300 plane, joint movement combined, with increased contact time on 697 00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:22,200 the ground. That would be more Demand on 698 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,000 like the Soleus and the calf complex. 699 00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:28,600 So I think that that was an interesting thing, kind of in 700 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,900 combination, with what we're seeing from from this study. 701 00:41:33,900 --> 00:41:40,300 Um, but yeah, I love nerdy not on that kind of stuff and doing 702 00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:43,800 running analysis with people. It's just a lot of fun, so, but 703 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,800 it's really, I think that's the thing too. 704 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,700 When it comes to running mechanics, there isn't a right 705 00:41:48,700 --> 00:41:51,500 way to run. We've talked about that a lot, 706 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,600 so don't feel like you have to hit a perfect form. 707 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,800 Either if you ever do a running analysis and they tell you, you 708 00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,800 need to change all these things to run, right? 709 00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:01,500 They might not be correct, especially if you're not. 710 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,700 Hurt. So yes. 711 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,500 Yeah, and that could be a whole nother podcast we should do 712 00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:07,900 that. We should. 713 00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:12,800 Yeah, we good. Well, we've got a whole hour and 714 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,300 a half here. We talked a lot about cold 715 00:42:15,300 --> 00:42:17,700 running and running on treadmills, Andrea. 716 00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:23,300 Thanks for doing this with me on New Year's Day and will have to 717 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,300 keep this conversation going. Some other times. 718 00:42:25,300 --> 00:42:28,100 If people have questions or comments regarding this 719 00:42:28,100 --> 00:42:30,800 conversation, please feel free to drop them below or you can 720 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,300 email us at Doctor burning podcast at gmail.com otherwise 721 00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:36,500 you can follow what we're doing on Instagram, Facebook Twitter 722 00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:38,600 and the like and we will talk to you all next time.