1 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,200 Hey everyone, and welcome to the Doctors and running podcast 2 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:13,640 where we a group of doctors in physical therapy, talk about the 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:16,200 art and the science of the things that we put on their feet 4 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,880 today. I've got doctor Andrew Myers 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,560 here with me and we are going to do some deep dives on the Nike 6 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:25,880 Vapor Flight 4 because we've gotten some miles on it. 7 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:29,200 We have a review up, but after reading through the reviews, 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:31,720 because as we write these, for those who don't know, we do 9 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:35,000 obviously read what everybody else is saying on our team and 10 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:36,640 it's always really curious and anginized. 11 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,640 Sometimes I feel like we we do agree on some things, but if 12 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:43,360 every shoe, we typically have some kind of different 13 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:46,760 experience frequently, although there might be 1 coming up that 14 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,080 we actually very, very much agree on that we seem to be 15 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:51,520 enjoying, but that's a different story. 16 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,080 Has there been any shoes that we've like fully agreed on so 17 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,560 far? I feel like there was one 18 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,160 recently. Well, when you and I discussed 19 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,680 the Hoka CLO X12 point zero, I think we found that we had more 20 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,440 that we agreed on than we thought. 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,800 That's very fair. So we are going to do an episode 22 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:16,960 because as we were both reading through our our different takes 23 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:21,840 on the Vaporfly 4 from Nike, which is a very big change from 24 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:23,400 what the series has been previously. 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,320 Although there's different opinions on that. 26 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,840 We found that we were having some very opposite experiences 27 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,400 with the how the shoe was writing and then realized we 28 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,800 actually had different experiences with several the 29 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,960 previous versions. So we thought we'd do an episode 30 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,960 deep diving into the Vapor Fly 4, but also talking about why 31 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,400 different runners might experience these things. 32 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:46,520 We're going to use our experiences as an educational 33 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,280 platform to go, hey, just FYI, when you see your views, you're 34 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,560 going to have to figure out, are the mechanics of the individual 35 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,400 reviewing similar to you and that's something you pay 36 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,480 attention to, or is this going to be a different experience 37 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,240 because different people are going to choose differently? 38 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:01,400 However, before we do that, we of course are going to do a 39 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,400 short segment on what are you running in right now? 40 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,200 So Andrew, what are you running in right now? 41 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,199 So I had a really fun track workout this morning. 42 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:13,480 I got to do my first run in the Nike Streak Fly 2, which I don't 43 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:18,160 have up here, but I'm glad you have it and Oh my gosh, I love 44 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,040 running in this shoe. I've got a track mile race that 45 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,040 I'm doing Thursday and I'm actually thinking about using 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,160 Streak Fly 2IN it just because it's kind of like a rust Buster 47 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,920 track race and actually because that shoes just as light as the 48 00:02:32,920 --> 00:02:34,760 track spikes I've been racing in. 49 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:37,960 What is it? 4.5 oz I think. 50 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,080 I think it's either 4.5 or 4.8 oz for men's size 9. 51 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,600 I might be saying 4.8 because I think I measured actually no, 52 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,680 that might be my size 10 because I, I put this on the scale. 53 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:50,680 I think it was 4.8 oz for men's size 10. 54 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,680 So I think it's you're right, it's 4.5 oz which it's a track 55 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,400 spike that can handle the row. I took this on bark dust and 56 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:02,560 gravel and it did fine. I'm like Rd. trail or cross 57 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,480 country track. It's and then the zoom XI think 58 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,920 we both like really enjoying especially the four foot heal. 59 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:11,480 I mean, the design of this you can see is pretty aggressive. 60 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,640 So you're going to be up on your toes for this, but my first 61 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:17,120 thought when I I am also running in it right now I'm like oh it's 62 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,760 nice to have like real racing flats yes back like with the 63 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,240 zoom X, which is great, but yeah didn't mean interrupt you so. 64 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,440 Oh no, it's OK. One thing that I know you said, 65 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,920 you said that earlier in our little Dor chat that it feels 66 00:03:30,920 --> 00:03:33,800 like a racing flat, but even though the stack height, I 67 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:38,160 believe it's 2622, it doesn't feel that low. 68 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:44,040 Like it I'm the last Rd. flat I raced in was the Saucony Type A8 69 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,920 and I think that stack is like in the teens. 70 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:49,960 So definitely doesn't feel as low as that. 71 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:53,120 But I never really felt like the shoe was bottoming out like I 72 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:57,560 didn't feel like it. It's not nearly as aggressive or 73 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,360 low to the ground as the Type A8 is for sure. 74 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,000 The four foot cushioning is amazing. 75 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,520 I you know, all of the running I did in it today was on the 76 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:07,880 track. So of course it might feel 77 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:11,240 different on pavement, but it just I'm excited to race in it. 78 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:15,160 I've got 2 road miles over Memorial Weekend and I think 79 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,880 it's going to be my racing shoot just because it's kind of 80 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,399 designed for that. 100% agree with you on that. 81 00:04:20,399 --> 00:04:23,040 I think maybe where I mean aggressive, and I should have 82 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:24,480 clarified, cushioning is phenomenal. 83 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,240 It's definitely not traditional in that sense, but it almost 84 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,040 feels like a negative drop. I think it's listed at a 4mm 85 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,160 drop, but it feels it's almost like a negative drop shoe, which 86 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,600 is how aggressive it's almost like I was trying to remember. 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:38,880 It's like looks like it was designed for like an Aquinas 88 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,120 foot where you have like the and for those who don't know who 89 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:44,400 aren't what, who aren't watching or listening, an Aquinas type 90 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,240 foot is where you know you have your calcaneus and heel, but 91 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,760 then the mid foot and fore foot actually sit lower and really 92 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:53,160 angle downwards. And you can have certain people 93 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:54,560 that they have that kind of foot position. 94 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,200 That kind of is what it looks like, but it also makes sense to 95 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,200 be designed for a mile, things like that where, yeah, a lot of 96 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,640 people are going to be up more on their forefoot naturally in 97 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,080 that position just. I do have to disagree with you 98 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:06,760 on that. It doesn't feel negative drop to 99 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:08,440 me at all. I see we already. 100 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:13,600 Started like for like my very slow jog recoveries today, you 101 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,640 know, didn't feel like I was jogging in a spike like I 102 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:21,360 definitely would feel in spike. So yeah, it's it's a nice shoe. 103 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,440 I'm excited to run more in it. Sweet. 104 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,720 All right, we may have to have a separate X episode on the The 105 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,840 Drop of the Street played too. I'm just kidding. 106 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:30,280 All right? What else are you running in? 107 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,360 Let's see similarly on the track, I just started testing 108 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:41,840 the Hoka CLO X2 point OMD, their mid distance spike. 109 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,960 Yeah, yeah. And what did I do in that shoe? 110 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:49,440 I did some mile pace intervals, some 800 pace intervals and 111 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,280 like, you know, a little faster than 400 pace. 112 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:58,400 I've got to say, compared to the Nike V2 spikes, which I've been 113 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:03,000 training and racing in all winter and indoor track, the CLO 114 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:06,560 X2 MD is definitely less aggressive. 115 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:11,040 Like you, it doesn't feel negative drop the way the V2 116 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,040 does. One thing I really notice about 117 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:19,640 the the Hoka spike is it has a really severe and early toe 118 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:23,120 spring. So it it definitely feels better 119 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,600 for me at mile pace. It felt like it was holding me 120 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:27,720 back if I tried to run any faster in it. 121 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,000 But it for me, it definitely felt like the mile would be like 122 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,560 the sweet spot for that shoe. So I haven't gotten more 123 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,200 workouts in it just because of my training schedule, but I'm 124 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,360 excited to test it out a little more. 125 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,200 Sweet. What are you doing training shoe 126 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,920 wise? Let's see well I just got the 127 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:54,360 topo fly light 6IN which I don't even it might be under embargo. 128 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:55,880 So it's good that I don't have it up here. 129 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,680 But I have to say, just walking around in it, it is possible 130 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,440 that it could replace my all time favorite shoe, the new 131 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,400 bounds beacon. Maybe not be better than it, but 132 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,480 it could replace it so I cannot. I'm going to run in it tomorrow, 133 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:13,640 but I can't wait to test that out. 134 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,240 So you heard it here first. This might be a beacon 135 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,560 replacement. That's that's pretty high 136 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:23,920 praise. So we'll have to see how this 137 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,040 goes. Yeah, we'll see. 138 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,560 Yes. And the other stuff you're 139 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,320 running in right now. You know, most of when I'm not 140 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,400 testing shoes kind of my go TOS for easy runs. 141 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,040 I love the topo Atmos. I think I've got close to 300 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,560 miles on my pair and it basically feels the same as it 143 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,360 did new. So that she was like definitely 144 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,840 a beast in terms of just holding up to a lot of like slog easy 145 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,920 runs. The Brooks Hyperion 2 is still 146 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,520 one of my like top go to easy workout, you know, pick up 147 00:07:56,520 --> 00:08:00,440 shoes. What else do I have for testing? 148 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:06,880 I just got the Solomon Aeroglide 3IN yes, and I know how much you 149 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,160 loved that shoe. And I am like again, I haven't 150 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,680 gotten to run it yet, but just walking around the house, it's 151 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,520 like, wow, this is a special shoe. 152 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:19,640 Like I can see why you rated it so highly and like some of the 153 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,000 nice things you said about it. So I've got some exciting things 154 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,880 to test for sure. Yeah, that shoe was a very big 155 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,560 surprise. The previous two versions were 156 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,160 very mad and like, I don't know why you're charging 160 and 157 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,039 doing a bunch of hype, but then version 3, I feel like there 158 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:37,080 wasn't as much type around their glide three, maybe I'm not on 159 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,400 social media enough. And then it was like, whoa, like 160 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:42,720 people need to talk about this. This is really good. 161 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,960 Like you got the foam finally figured out. 162 00:08:45,240 --> 00:08:48,080 Upper still has some like mild things that need to be kind of 163 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,080 fixed, but it's like great, great, great, great shoe. 164 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,320 So I'm very, very impressed. So great. 165 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:54,840 Awesome. Yeah, and how about you? 166 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,840 What are? So I've got obviously the big, 167 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,960 big one that the RE we just dropped is the Brooklyn GTS 22, 168 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:05,320 which I really didn't enjoy when I first started running. 169 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,040 I'm like, this is like your classic bulky, somewhat 170 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:12,240 uncomfortable stability shoe. Jen and Evan, I promise this is 171 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:13,640 going to get better If you guys are listening. 172 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,680 This is too awesome about mechanism over at Brooks, but it 173 00:09:17,680 --> 00:09:20,280 actually has really grown on me where it's a good stability 174 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:21,880 shoe. I do have a slightly irritated 175 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:23,840 post tib that's getting better as I rehab it. 176 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,880 And part of it is also I I also irritate it because I'm like, I 177 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,840 know I have a tendinopathy. I need to rehab this even though 178 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,680 I don't have symptoms right now. And then I passed it off going 179 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:35,320 Oh yeah, there we go. Like I know it's there. 180 00:09:35,680 --> 00:09:39,200 So it's been helpful to have this shoe and it just got it 181 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,120 just broken really nice. It is heavy, but the DNA tune 182 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:46,920 really offsets that and just been a good mile slog of a shoe 183 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:48,880 to kind of go and it's been and I've really enjoyed it. 184 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,360 Uppers broken and really nicely. And I've got 60 miles on this 185 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,160 and this is my left shoe and everything is so intact. 186 00:09:55,160 --> 00:09:57,400 So that's a big deal. So that impressive. 187 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:01,840 That one's a big one. I just did a long run in the 188 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,080 Brooks Hyperion Max 3, which is the 1st of this series that I've 189 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,280 actually enjoyed as opposed to Andrew. 190 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,040 We might talk about that at some point, but uppers really snug. 191 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,960 It's definitely a good super trainer and competes with shoes 192 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,960 like the Super blast heel. Oh my gosh is so much better 193 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,040 than any of the other super trainers, so that's good. 194 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:23,520 I'm just trying to get over that mid foot medial cut out, which 195 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,040 didn't bother me on a long run today, which is really 196 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,200 surprising, but it's been doing pretty good. 197 00:10:28,560 --> 00:10:31,880 Let's see Oh yeah the last one other than the streak flight 2 198 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:35,040 that I'm running in right now is let's see if I can say this 199 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:42,320 correctly, the Adidas addi 0 audios evo Pro 2, which the heel 200 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:46,280 is still intact at 2 workouts. I've got about 15 miles on 201 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,200 these, so that has this piece hasn't come off, but it's a sun. 202 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:54,200 It's it's just a teeny bit off at this point, but still there 203 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:58,000 better than the original 1 by quite a bit like there's 204 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:02,440 actually a little bounce to the midsole, which is nice, but it's 205 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,160 very light. But Adidas, you guys got to be 206 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:06,480 careful. There is a lot of companies who 207 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,200 are about ready to drop stuff that are similar weights. 208 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,480 It's not 500 bucks, so it's a good shoe. 209 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:13,160 I am going to go racing this at some point in the next month or 210 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,480 so and I'll report back what the racing experience feels like. 211 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:19,320 But so far, by some miracle, the outsole is still intact. 212 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,880 So big. That is a miracle, yeah. 213 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,000 All right, are we ready for the star of the show? 214 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:28,960 Yes. All right, so as we mentioned 215 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,000 earlier, we are going to do a comparison of the Nike Vapor Fly 216 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,400 4. This is Nike's kind of premier 217 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,000 super racing shoe and also there's two other ones 218 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,360 technically 3. The Nike streak fly 2 is kind of 219 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:43,120 the lighter weight, shorter distance shoe. 220 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:48,280 The Nike alpha Fly 3 is the long distance half marathon shoe and 221 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,680 the Vapor fly 4 is kind of supposed to be the do it all 222 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:54,440 racing shoe where I can do everything from the mile up to 223 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,280 the marathon. Although I might not suggest up 224 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,400 to the marathon even though that's what it's claimed to be. 225 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:02,240 This is the original super shoe like original version was the OG 226 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,520 that came out what 2016? It's been almost a decade of 227 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,120 super shoes now at this point so that's crazy think about. 228 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,800 But so lot of change in the shoe. 229 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:15,960 So biggest thing is the weight dropped by a significant amount. 230 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,000 It's now down to correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not 231 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,160 looking at the specs off my the top of my head is 5.8 oz. 232 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:27,400 I think for men's size 9 stack height is 36mm in the heel, 30 233 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,600 in the 446mm drop. So they drop the heel stack 234 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,600 height a little bit and it's been, you know, at that 38 + 40 235 00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,920 for a while now. So that's a very big difference, 236 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:41,680 different design in the outsole where they have a central cut 237 00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:45,360 out now, it's not as curved of a last as it was previously. 238 00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:49,200 And some design changes with how the outsole was set up and 239 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:51,880 definitely some big upper changes in terms of fit that 240 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,040 we'll talk about in just a second. 241 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:56,320 But anything that I missed on specs, they're still using Zoom 242 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,120 X, They're still using a carbon fiber fly plate, but very a 243 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,760 different shoe in my opinion than the last couple versions. 244 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,360 Yeah, just a quick spec correction. 245 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,200 The ones that I looked up, 5.9 got it in the 4 compared to the 246 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,480 three 6.5 oz, So that's a pretty big weight drop. 247 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:17,440 Yeah, yeah. So OK, a little a team of 248 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:21,560 higher, but yeah, it's it's a very different chew than. 249 00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:23,360 What has been? Experienced differently, 250 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,520 although that's The thing is we've experienced the 251 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:27,440 differences differently, differently. 252 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:28,520 Which is. Interesting. 253 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,360 So let's start with the upper. What were your initial 254 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,240 experiences with the upper? And then I'll talk about how I 255 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:36,600 experienced them because somewhat similar, but some mild 256 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:38,080 differences here. Sure. 257 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:43,080 So I'm basically on the edge of women's 9.5 and 10 in a lot of 258 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:45,200 shoes. And then the Vapor Fly, I've 259 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,080 worn both. The nine point 9.5 I had to go 260 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:55,040 up to A10IN version 2. So Nike originally sent me a 9.5 261 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,920 and it was just so short. I was like, oh gosh, I'm going 262 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,560 to lose my toenails immediately. So I did, I did a workout in 263 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,720 them and I had some toenail pain and luckily Nathan reached out 264 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,280 to Nike and they were willing to send me a 10. 265 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,440 And then the 10 definitely fits correctly for me. 266 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,240 So anyone who is similarly on the border of sizing in 267 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,560 Vaporfly, I would recommend going up for length. 268 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:28,240 Now even comparing my women's size 10 to my women's size 9.5 269 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,280 of version 3, there's pretty significant differences just in 270 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,000 how it fits. So first of all, the mesh upper 271 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,520 is a lot different. It's much snugger. 272 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:43,520 It doesn't have as much stretch. You can see like big mesh holes 273 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:46,440 in version 3, this weave is a lot tighter. 274 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,440 So there's just not much give it all in this upper. 275 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:56,440 Overall, the toe box is a lot lower volume and in version 4, 276 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:00,160 which I've not experienced in any of the previous versions, I 277 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:05,280 actually had a lot of pressure here, like over my 4th toe to 278 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,960 the point where I actually had like bruising over my toes. 279 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,000 After the runs that I did, I was like, why does my toe hurt? 280 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:14,640 And then I remembered what I had done earlier that day. 281 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:20,720 So that definitely would keep me from using the Vaporfly 4 for 282 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,200 anything probably longer than a 5K because both of the workouts 283 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,440 I did in the shoe were like 9 to 10 miles in total, like warm up 284 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,560 workout, cool down and I could feel like the irritation on the 285 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,840 top of my 4th toes, you know, mid workout. 286 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,720 So I certainly wouldn't use vapor fly for for 1/2, probably 287 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,560 not even a 10K, but I'd use it for a 5K or a road mile. 288 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,800 Although now with streak Fly, I think you know, and streak fly 289 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:52,760 fits much differently than Vapor fly for so I'm not sure I would 290 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,720 use this for anything but a 5K if I did race in it. 291 00:15:56,160 --> 00:16:01,200 So besides the tighter fitting toe box, it's also a little 292 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,760 narrower here. I didn't get any. 293 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,280 A lot of shoes will rub like on my first MTP. 294 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:09,840 Sometimes they'll rub at my 5th. I didn't get that. 295 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:14,080 But it's just definitely overall a more snug fitting shoe. 296 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:20,720 The tongue reminds me more of the tongue of the original next 297 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:23,240 percent. Like it's that plasticky 298 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,400 feeling. It's really it's a lot stiffer 299 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,280 than like the tongue of version 3. 300 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,280 But I felt that it it sat pretty well. 301 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,440 I didn't get any lace irritation. 302 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,080 So overall my main issues with the fit were in the toe box. 303 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,160 The midfoot and the rear foot are snug, just like all vapor 304 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:47,400 flies. The heel cushioning is pretty 305 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:54,520 similar to version 3, so I would say for me the definitely the 306 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,840 biggest difference was just how tight the toe box fits. 307 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,600 I would definitely agree with you on that and I have very 308 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,880 little to disagree. I sit between a 10 and 10 1/2 as 309 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,920 I found, but I'm still on the side of a 10 and for sure when I 310 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,280 put the favorite flight 4 on the first time, I'm like, oh, this 311 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,839 is a lot snugger and a lot lower volume where I feel like version 312 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:21,079 3/2 and even a little bit of the OG necks like just had more 313 00:17:21,079 --> 00:17:23,920 volume in the upper where I was like, oh, this is like kind of 314 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,680 wide like this isn't what I'm used to with a racing flat. 315 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,560 I'm used to these fitting much more snug and this is the first 316 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,560 time of the series where it really fit much closer and has 317 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,680 stayed that way. I'm fortunate I've been. 318 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:39,640 I think I would the Max I would use this up to is like 10K, 319 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:44,040 maybe half marathon, although the midsole for different 320 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:45,440 reasons. I probably wouldn't do that just 321 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,400 for me personally, but I think the upper has stretched a little 322 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,040 bit, but I got that same very low feeling across the top of my 323 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:53,400 toes. It is much more. 324 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,200 It's still not super narrow, but the volume just makes it feel 325 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,480 much more snug, which I felt was great and the forefoot and the 326 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:01,960 midfoot because there's a lot of good security. 327 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,960 The tongue was also good. There's light padding because I 328 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,240 definitely need that, but the thing that I'm getting is my 329 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,960 heel is slipping out of this thing like no other. 330 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,800 I have not had that in a Vapor Fly. 331 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,920 I know the design is very similar in this but I don't know 332 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,120 if it's the socks that I use or what because I use I've got from 333 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:23,080 Salomon from Adidas from gosh who am I forgetting is so nice 334 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,080 that sends us socks. Oh my gosh, I'm moving a brain 335 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:30,120 fart. Oh, oh, gosh. 336 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Swiftwick. Yeah, Swiftwick. 337 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,160 Yeah, they're on. Yes, thank you. 338 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,000 So I'm sorry I forgot I've been doing that. 339 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:38,880 There's one opportunity every episode so but I forget 340 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,600 something obvious. But Swiftwick has been really 341 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,480 nice and set up some socks that are phenomenal. 342 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:45,280 But it doesn't seem to matter which sock I use. 343 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:49,120 I've just my heel slips out and I it's not horrible, but it's 344 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:50,960 annoying. I haven't had any like chafing 345 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,120 from it, even though I've used it on up to 10 miles, but I just 346 00:18:55,120 --> 00:18:58,800 had the lace lock these shoes this the the laces down and 347 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,240 luckily the the tongue is padded enough that hasn't been an 348 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,680 issue. But it's a very different fit 349 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,880 than the previous vapor fly. So I think people that want to 350 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,160 use it for longer distances, you should definitely try this 351 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,000 before you buy it. And you should really think, 352 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,720 hey, if I'm getting that toe pressure, you might want to do a 353 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:17,720 half size up. So fairly similar upper 354 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:20,360 experiences on that, even though typically we have somewhat 355 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:23,520 different experiences with the upper frequently, but the 356 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,520 biggest difference we usually feel is the soul. 357 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:30,200 So how did you feel about that? So I felt the versions one 358 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:35,400 through three out of 1-2 or three, the firmest version was 359 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,880 version 3. Like I always felt in one and 360 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:41,200 two that there was like a little bit of like a sinking and 361 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:42,880 feeling for me at initial contact. 362 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,480 But version 3 was the first one that I really felt like I just 363 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:49,520 like landed and went. And I really liked that about 364 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:53,360 version three. I've run a marathon in the next 365 00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:58,640 Percent and version 3, version 2, I bought it like when it went 366 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,280 on sale. So I've put probably 200 miles 367 00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,240 on it, but just with long runs, I haven't erased it. 368 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,440 So I have a lot of miles on these shoes. 369 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,080 I'm on my third pair of Vapor Fly Threes, so I definitely I 370 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,040 know how they feel. Yes, I know. 371 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:16,280 How did I not? Know this? 372 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:18,000 I don't know. I don't know either. 373 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:19,680 Yeah. Yeah, I've got some. 374 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:24,160 This is my second pair. You can see I ruined the upper. 375 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,520 It's nice and Gray. But this is what the outsole 376 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,000 looks like after I think I've got 175 miles on these. 377 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,320 Like, they're in pretty good shape. 378 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,040 Now compare these, which have 20 miles on them, and you can 379 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,040 already see I'm starting to, like, wear down that exposed 380 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,080 midsole, which is actually pretty unusual for me. 381 00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:48,920 So. And yeah, Oh yeah, yeah. 382 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,800 So. You have 130 miles on these, so 383 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,720 yeah, I'm with you on that. But yeah. 384 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:58,480 I just, Oh no, don't pick it. It will come off sooner. 385 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,960 I think we both agreed that like the durability of the four is 386 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:08,600 not going to be as good because of this lack of rubber coverage 387 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,240 in the outsole compared to the three which really had both very 388 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,640 good rubber coverage and very good traction. 389 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:19,240 I know a lot of people used three like for cross country. 390 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,640 And I mentioned that some P on on my initial comparison review 391 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,840 of four versus 3. And I, I totally agree with you 392 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,080 that traction wise, this is a road shoe. 393 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:30,840 This is the traction is not good enough to be used for cross 394 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,360 country. Whereas version 3 was probably 395 00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:35,600 the only vapor fly that was like, OK, yeah, there's some 396 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,760 good like they're not trail shoes, but the lugs were so much 397 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,400 better. And like it'll grip really, 398 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,120 really well. So like if you want to use and 399 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:44,680 you have stable mechanics, go for it. 400 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,680 Probably wouldn't use it on grass, but for dirt, yeah, like 401 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,040 absolutely. So 100% agree with you on that. 402 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,960 Oh, so back to your original question though. 403 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:58,760 So the four, I definitely feel the most sinking in at initial 404 00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,160 contact out of any of the previous versions. 405 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,000 And I think there's a couple of reasons for that. 406 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:09,080 One, the stack heights lower. So this shoe is 36, 30, whereas 407 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:15,280 the three was 3830 and the two previous were 4032. 408 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:19,240 So of course there's just less foam where I'm landing here. 409 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,920 But I think actually upon further inspection of the shoe, 410 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,240 there's a big difference in the amount of sole flare in the 411 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,600 midfoot where I land in the four. 412 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:37,440 So if you can see, there's just not much soul flaring here, 413 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:44,120 whereas in the three, there's a lot of lateral soul flare in the 414 00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:47,760 midfoot here. And I think that that just made 415 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:54,440 me when I landed, you know, here, it made me stay there a 416 00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:58,200 little bit longer because the foam was able to compress more 417 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:05,000 because there's nothing under here compared to how the three 418 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,040 is designed. So I think, and that's one of 419 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,800 like our big disagreements is like, I felt like this was a 420 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:13,800 softer version and you felt like it was firmer. 421 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,080 But I think it a big part of that is where you and I land. 422 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,920 But also, you know, but the angle at which our foot is when 423 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,640 we land, that makes a difference. 424 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,400 Our body weight makes a difference. 425 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,960 I'm not going to load. I mean, you don't weigh that 426 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,320 much more than me, but I'm not going to load a shoe quite as 427 00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:36,640 much as you. Well, how famous I've gotten for 428 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,240 just wrecking shoes. I'm out of like like force that 429 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,000 I put to the somehow put that much force to the ground. 430 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,800 It's not really known how, but I've had people tell me, like, 431 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,400 I'm not when I watch you run. I'm not really sure how you're 432 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,480 going forward, but you somehow do that. 433 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,840 Yeah, you're doing. And quite quite quickly. 434 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,200 So yeah, it. Didn't look good, but this is 435 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,040 quick. Doesn't. 436 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:55,880 Matter. Yeah. 437 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,960 So you know, beyond like initial contact, I really like the the 438 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,760 rocker geometry of the shoe similar to previous versions 439 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,000 like you land and then it like really immediately just shoots 440 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:13,200 you forward and to push off. It just felt well, it felt a 441 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,480 little slower because it was softer at initial contact. 442 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,520 It still felt just as good at faster paces. 443 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:24,880 So I used the size 10 for two workouts where I basically did 444 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,320 like a progression run from like half marathon down to 5K pace. 445 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:32,120 And I used the size 9 1/2 for a similar workout that she 446 00:24:32,120 --> 00:24:35,000 responded perfectly whatever pace I was running. 447 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:38,200 And actually it wasn't terrible like warm up or cool down 448 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,600 either. So it's not like this, that 449 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,760 softer feel made it feel less responsive. 450 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,560 It actually feels really responsive to me. 451 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,840 It just felt like the foam has more compliance where I land 452 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,960 compared to the three and actually even more so compared 453 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,520 to the two and the one. Got it. 454 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,160 So I had the opposite experience, although I'll be 455 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,760 honest that I actually do like version 4 better than version 3 456 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,320 and ironically for things people wouldn't expect, but we'll talk 457 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,840 about that. But yeah, I found version 4 to 458 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:15,600 be much firmer than I was expecting. 459 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,360 Where typically with a lot of vapor flies, I've always 460 00:25:18,360 --> 00:25:22,320 expected the, you know, soft heel bouncy zoom X foam. 461 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,880 And I'm not saying this is not bouncy, but I found the foam to 462 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,600 be much less resilient. And I'm still trying to figure 463 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,320 out why, as you can obviously see by the where. 464 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,160 So I typically am a heel striker and then my mechanics have 465 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,160 changed a little bit where I scuff the lateral midfoot and 466 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:40,840 heel. And I actually know the answer 467 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,720 as to why I do that because I was not bored but was like was 468 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,320 testing some stuff for our lab at George Fox and I was like 469 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,200 let's take a look at what my running mechanics look like. 470 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,600 I have 20° less peak knee flexion on my left side compared 471 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,480 to my right. Wow, that's very interesting. 472 00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:57,520 Oh. Yeah. 473 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,680 And so it's very obvious during swing phase. 474 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:02,720 Those don't know swing phase during running is when your legs 475 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,680 off the ground, you'll bend your knee to help it get forwards, 476 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,400 right to start another landing. Yeah, that left leg doesn't bend 477 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,120 very much. And I can, I knew that like 478 00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,080 subconsciously. And then just I'll have to post 479 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,360 the video from Qualisis that we pulled up. 480 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,680 But it's like very noticeable asymmetry. 481 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:22,280 I'm like, how have I been running like this? 482 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,000 Which I think I don't know if it's a tendinopathy or just an 483 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,480 old. I definitely had a long, a long 484 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:29,960 ago hamstring strain just never probably got. 485 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,080 I've known it's a little bit weaker on that left side, but 486 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,680 haven't fully taken the time to rehab it. 487 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,360 So also like the post tip, by the way, I was like, let me 488 00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,680 start really work on this. And then also pissed it off And 489 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:41,240 I was like, oh, there's some underlying stuff that I've been 490 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,360 compensating for. So let's see, I have a slightly 491 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,920 annoyed hamstring and a slightly annoyed post tip on opposite 492 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:49,160 sides that you know, I'm, I'm working on and it's improving. 493 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:51,160 Hasn't stopped me running, but it's like, oh, this is 494 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,920 different. So we'll see if this makes a 495 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,400 change in the durability of some shoes, which totally throws some 496 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,880 stuff off. But anyway, so I have a very 497 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:03,480 wonky landing pattern on my left side obviously, but and I land 498 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:07,560 really really really hard that shoes don't last very long for 499 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,560 me and they never have. So even before I was scuffing I 500 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,800 would run through shoes really quick and they would just get 501 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:19,160 destroyed. So I compress stuff a lot for me 502 00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,560 where I land. I think cuz you land up a little 503 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,520 bit, you land a little bit farther forward. 504 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,960 I can totally see why they're being more stuff for you to land 505 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,240 on at this latter S with forefoot would feel a lot 506 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,080 better. The midfoot is, I don't know if 507 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,160 narrower is the right term, but version 3 was a much more curved 508 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,920 last where there was stuff for me to land on even though it was 509 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,560 very unstable, like I found it soft. 510 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,680 That midfoot like killed me. I could not really take that 511 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,960 thing. Like race distance wise I took 512 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,200 it for a 5K and even that was a bit of a struggle. 513 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,520 The sole of the heel and midfoot in version 4 is much more 514 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,320 centered which ironically makes this shoe feel a teeny bit more 515 00:27:58,320 --> 00:27:59,720 stable for me. Or at least it makes me feel 516 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,560 less biased immediately, like it's not stable by any means at 517 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,560 the heel, mid foot still very narrow for a shoe this tall, but 518 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,760 it's less biased in One Direction, which is actually 519 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,040 allowed me to take this longer. I would have never done a long 520 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,360 run in version 3 and I did what is now a long run for me, about 521 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,160 10:50 miles in it. And it was like oh this is 522 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,280 actually not bad. It wouldn't be my choice. 523 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,360 I would still choose the out fly which I did for 1/2 marathon 524 00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:26,920 push in the stroller recently. But the more centered sole I 525 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:29,720 think makes it a teeny bit more stable, but it also makes it a 526 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,920 little bit feel firmer because I think there's less material 527 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,400 where I typically land on this lateral aspect, either lateral 528 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,560 heel or midfoot. And that just makes it feel 529 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200 firmer for me. Does it make it feel less fast? 530 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,800 In fact, to me, because I can take it longer and I could feel 531 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,840 like I can actually get to the forefoot and push off better, it 532 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,040 feels a lot better. I felt like with version three, 533 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,040 I would sink into it probably because I would pronate pronate 534 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,720 so much and get stuck because I perceive the soft for him to be 535 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,840 the sole to be softer that I it was harder for me to get off 536 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,680 that forefoot because when you land, you need, whether you land 537 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,680 at the heel or the midfoot forefoot, you need to be able to 538 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,800 pronate and then you need to be able to re supinate out of it. 539 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:11,520 So how much you pronate isn't necessarily as important as the 540 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,440 quality of can you get into and out of it. 541 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,440 And I just felt like I could not get out of it with version 542 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,840 three. I think with version four I am 543 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,320 able to just because a little more soul flare. 544 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,240 What feels like more soul flare for the forefoot what 4 foot is 545 00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,560 just feels a little. So getting up my toes feels a 546 00:29:27,560 --> 00:29:29,440 lot better when I pick up the pace. 547 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,480 And I would agree with you that the pace versatility feels 548 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,560 pretty good. Where I could I felt like I 549 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,280 could easily crank a 5K, but half marathon pace still felt 550 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,600 good and running slightly easier felt okay because I typically 551 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,800 like firmer shoes and it was just relatively less biased. 552 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,720 But I think from the firmer midsole feel if I was going to 553 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,200 race in this shoe I would definitely take it more for 554 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,040 ironically we're going to agree on this, but for different 555 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,120 reasons. I would be more likely to take 556 00:29:55,120 --> 00:30:00,480 this for a 5K, maybe a 10 bit 10K5K10K, probably not 1/2 just 557 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,160 because it's to me doesn't feel soft enough on. 558 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,040 But I also agree that part of that is to the fact that it fits 559 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,160 snug and I don't feel like I have quite enough room to want 560 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:11,360 to take it that far unless I want to. 561 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:15,000 It was a toenail. Yeah, I think it's important for 562 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,080 me to note one of my runs in the shoe was basically 10 miles at 563 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,040 like 15 seconds slower than marathon pace, which was not the 564 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,600 plan, but I just ended up running a little too fast. 565 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,720 But the Zoom X felt awesome, like if the shoe fit better, I 566 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,320 would consider running a marathon in vapor fly form. 567 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,360 But there's no way that I could take it longer because I would 568 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,240 probably have a hole in my 4th toes by the you know what I 569 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,640 mean. But the the increase softness or 570 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,600 compliance that initial contact wouldn't make it like a deal 571 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,760 breaker for like the marathon distance or marathon pace 572 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,920 because it felt super comfortable just settling into a 573 00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:01,360 rhythm and going for 10 miles. So if they fixed the fit, maybe 574 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,640 for version five, maybe it would also be a marathon shoe for me. 575 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,640 I will say though, what I do really enjoy about it is the 576 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,680 noticeable weight decrease compared to version 3, and maybe 577 00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,320 that's also a piece of it that makes it feel a little bit 578 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,280 firmer and a little bit quicker on foot. 579 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,720 Is it? It's noticeably lighter and it's 580 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,320 nice to finally see racing shoes, not all of them, but see 581 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,560 some racing shoes getting back into that sub six out range and 582 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,200 being like, oh, this is nice. Like I feel like I can turn over 583 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,240 again and I can move quicker. And the two of us are obviously 584 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,480 biased because at this point we're focusing on shorter 585 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:37,280 distances and not focusing on the marathon. 586 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,280 So it's just nice to have like just to have that snappiness and 587 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:42,320 I agree. Like that's what the four foot 588 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,920 feels a lot better than version 3 where it just feels more 589 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,160 snappy off the front. Off the front just feels like I 590 00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:51,560 could turn over so much better. Yeah, I. 591 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,640 I agree with that. I did it my workout like my 592 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:58,760 progression run this week in the three just like refresh my 593 00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:06,440 memory and I love the three and I've raced mile races 5K10K 594 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,280 every distance in it. But the the geometry of the four 595 00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,960 foot of the four feels snappier than the three for sure. 596 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,280 And I could definitely feel there was a different like in my 597 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,600 difference in my foot angle at initial contact in the three. 598 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:27,000 Probably I'm the difference in drop maybe, but I think also 599 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:32,160 because of the difference in the soul flare where I land it just 600 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:37,240 I feel like I land more planner flexed in the three than I do in 601 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:41,880 the four and the four feels more comfortable to me in that regard 602 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:43,760 and can. You clarify again, you said you 603 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,640 feel like there you so you have a different foot contact angle. 604 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,200 Gosh, what is it called? Contact angle? 605 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:54,600 What's the term? It's I think that's it. 606 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,080 I think I'm never thinking this. Yeah. 607 00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,080 And you said it's because of the soul flare. 608 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,480 Can you explain why you think why that you think that's 609 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,720 happening if it? What if I thought it was the 610 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,920 drop? I feel like in the three I would 611 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:09,440 feel like the heel is in the way and I've never really felt like 612 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,800 that's the case. But I think because the three is 613 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,880 more stable for me because of the extra lateral soul flare 614 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:23,040 where where I land it just it lets me land more I and I could 615 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,720 be totally wrong about this, but the whole point of this. 616 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:26,200 Episode. Yeah. 617 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:31,720 Yeah, it, it just feels like it. It doesn't force me to land in a 618 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:36,240 more dorsiflex position to accept my weight as compared to 619 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,200 version four. I can't say that it necessarily 620 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,360 feels better. You know, like I like the way 621 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:48,280 the four feels, but the three feels like, well, actually like 622 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:51,840 I said, the four, it feels like there's a little bit of a pause 623 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,040 at initial contact before I roll forward in this shoe. 624 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,400 I really feel like I land and then just go. 625 00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,920 So perhaps it's not actually that my foot angle is different. 626 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,960 I'm just perceiving transitioning from initial 627 00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:11,360 contact to mid stands faster and of course as you do that your 628 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,840 planner flexing. So maybe that's more of what I'm 629 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,400 feeling I'm going to. Try something you can totally 630 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:17,920 disagree with me. Do you think because you don't, 631 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:22,840 you're not like a pure 4 foot and you're like far like mid, 632 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,679 right basically. Where basically I'm landing like 633 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,280 right at this transition here. Got it. 634 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,800 Yeah. So almost wondering if because 635 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,920 you land there, you're going from a point where it's more 636 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:38,560 narrow and the width of the sole can actually impact stiffness of 637 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,639 a shoe. Like a more narrow sole can 638 00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:44,719 actually feel like it transitions really, really quick 639 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,040 and a wider 1 can actually add stiffness. 640 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,800 I'm wondering if you're going from here and what you're doing 641 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,440 is you're perceiving a change in some level of stiffness and 642 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,880 whatever reasoning that's that's because it's going from narrow 643 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,520 to thicker. And this like lateral piece here 644 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,400 that I wonder if that's slowing you down because you're going 645 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,360 from a quicker transition to slower and you're and that's 646 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,400 showing up as feeling like it's a more compliant foam. 647 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:18,880 It could. Be and you know the Hoka Mach X2 648 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:25,440 that we tested last fall? No, not the Mach X2 was it? 649 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:32,520 No, the New Balance Racing. Flat the OR was it trainer the 650 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:34,680 Super trainer? Lightweight trainer V3. 651 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:37,960 Not the rebel. Yeah, the. 652 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,560 Rebel. The rebel we tested last year. 653 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,720 Yeah, that shoe, because of there's like a rubber piece in 654 00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:50,120 the forefoot and there's, you know, expose midsole in the 655 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,560 midfoot. I land right at that transition 656 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,120 from the expose midsole to the forefoot. 657 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,800 And that shoe is like the only shoe I've ever ran in that 658 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,680 actually irritated my Achilles because it felt like when I 659 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:08,040 landed, I actually rocked backwards because I was landing 660 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,280 on that soft part. And if I remember right, the 661 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,560 geometry, like there's a pretty severe, severe heel bevel in 662 00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,840 that shoe as well. So just the angle at which my 663 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:25,480 foot landed combined with that softness, I felt like it made me 664 00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,720 kind of rock back before pushing forward. 665 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:29,240 Yep. The Rebel. 666 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:32,160 Would that be AV4V Four? Yeah. 667 00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,400 That's interesting. So This is why, by the way, so 668 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,480 I'm this is me telling you obvious because audience, 669 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,720 because you obviously know this. This is why we talk about so 670 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:43,120 many of these what my people considered little things like 671 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,640 the soil width or the outsole coverage. 672 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,360 Because I'm wondering if another reason I might perceive this as 673 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,000 being firmer is because a, I'm landing farther back than you. 674 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:56,280 I'm might be hitting a bit of the this outsole patch, but also 675 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,160 where I'm landing the plate is much closer to my foot. 676 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,040 And so plate distance from the foot will also really change how 677 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,320 a shoe feels. If the plate is sitting 678 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,600 underneath your foot, that's going to probably feel firmer. 679 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,040 If it's farther away, it might feel a little bit softer. 680 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,440 There's some variation in that. But all of these things are 681 00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:17,800 going to combine and depending on how yours just respond, where 682 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,320 you land your landing mechanics, how you perceive things under 683 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:23,440 foot, that's going to create some differences. 684 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,440 So I'm hoping, and we're hoping that by talking through this, it 685 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,600 helps you figure out, huh, if you see some of the and, and I 686 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:32,640 think we're getting better where we can kind of look at a shoe 687 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,320 and you're like, I can almost fairly accurately predict how 688 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:38,360 this is going to feel. That's what our hope is for all 689 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:40,840 of you that are listening and watching is to go, you can look 690 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,320 at a shoe and be like, either I know it's going to work or I 691 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:44,960 don't. And we're still surprised all 692 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,200 the time. We're still learning. 693 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:50,200 But I hopefully that's a helpful thing on understanding shoes are 694 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:52,360 going to be perceived differently by each people, each 695 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,200 person just because there's so much variability in landing 696 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,440 mechanics, loading mechanics, That's just how it goes, 697 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,360 definitely. And we're two good examples 698 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,960 because we are so different in our mechanics. 699 00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:07,720 Yeah, yeah. Andrea actually looks nice when 700 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:09,120 she runs. I look like garbage. 701 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,080 Well, look, there's a runner. There's a what is he doing? 702 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,080 Like, wow. Except, you know, you're like 703 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,640 minutes ahead of me. It's OK. 704 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:21,880 What was? That I forget what was the 705 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:27,560 again, I can't remember anything not is it Pablo, Pablo Dermy or 706 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,400 who is the the the Czech guy or the guy from Finland, which I 707 00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,160 know are two completely different areas, who was like 708 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,880 run it here, like carry his wife and like run laps and do all 709 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:39,480 this crazy stuff. And then he ran the five. 710 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:43,240 He won the 5K10K and the marathon in the Olympics. 711 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,840 Oh gosh. That was a long time ago, right? 712 00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,840 It was a lot, Yeah. This is like. 100 plus years, 713 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:52,120 but yeah, there was a yeah, there's a comment he won all 714 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:54,240 this stuff and people like oh, why don't you like you're 715 00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,520 running from looks terrible and goes this is not this is not 716 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,160 ballet. This is running, this is what 717 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:04,400 looks trying not to die, but so different experiences for the 718 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,400 same shoe. And again, we're we're hoping is 719 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:10,160 that you can look at learn from this and go, Oh, I want so the 720 00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,360 people that you have similar mechanics to, that's somebody 721 00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,520 that you should think about paying attention to when they do 722 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,000 shoe reviews, because everybody's different. 723 00:39:16,240 --> 00:39:18,800 And this is also the reason why you might watch 40 different 724 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,400 reviewers and people might have different experiences with it. 725 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,760 And that's why there's variability in human movement. 726 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,520 So the hopefully that's helpful. We're going to continue doing 727 00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:28,960 these because an interesting way to review shoes, but also help 728 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,920 teach you at the same time. As always, you can find us on a 729 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,320 variety of places. So anywhere from YouTube, 730 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,680 Spotify, if you want to hear this stuff, watch it on YouTube. 731 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:40,480 And of course you can see all of our written content on Doctors 732 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,280 running. We are of course posting on 733 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:44,960 other social media sites like LinkedIn, Instagram and Have fun 734 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,840 Reels and stuff like that. Very excited how well David and 735 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:54,200 BJ were in Japan for the ASICS Meta speed event and got some 736 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:56,520 really good content there that's doing very, very well, which 737 00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:58,920 always is very, very exciting, but also really cool stuff to 738 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:00,600 watch. So yes, lots of stuff in many 739 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:02,160 different areas. You can find us in all those 740 00:40:02,160 --> 00:40:04,120 different places and obviously e-mail us at 741 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,240 doctorsrunning@gmail.com. Whether how quickly we can 742 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,760 respond to you will vary because Please remember we have all have 743 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,800 at least one full time job, if not more. 744 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,520 And we do this because we really enjoy it, want to teach and hope 745 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,600 you all understand what not only. 746 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:18,880 Work specs for you, but how to find that and be able to run 747 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,240 happy and healthy? And I know I just stole the old 748 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:25,000 Brooks tagline again, which I've been made fun of, but 749 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:26,160 technically they don't own that anymore. 750 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,440 So we're going to end on that and then we will see you all 751 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:28,840 next time.