1 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,120 Hello everybody and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast 2 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:12,720 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discuss the 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,040 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:16,840 feet. The presenting partner for this 5 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,480 podcast is Rabbit Apparel and this year they are doing 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:23,320 something new and pretty exciting called their Clubhouse 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,360 series. So at three major events around 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,920 the world this year, UTMB, Chicago Marathon and New York 9 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,080 City Marathon, they're doing their Clubhouse series where you 10 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,120 as a runner can get a full week experience where you get to stay 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,280 at the Rabbit Hotel, you can participate in their shakeouts 12 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,320 and other community events, and you get race swag specific to 13 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:45,520 that event. So if you're wanting to learn 14 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:50,080 more about the Clubhouse series, you can go to runinrabbit.com to 15 00:00:50,080 --> 00:00:52,680 learn more about what the opportunities look like. 16 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:56,960 It sounds like a lot of fun. Also, if you are hoping to get 17 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,000 some sort of discount on your next order of Rabbit apparel, 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,440 you can use the code DORJAN 10 during the month of January to 19 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,880 get 10% off an order. Or if it's February when you're 20 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:12,240 listening to this, you can use the code Doctors 10 and that 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,680 would get you a 10% off another order from Rabbit. 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:20,760 Well, let's start talking about what we have in for testing 23 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,360 right now. We are kind of getting this 24 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,440 flurry of shoes being sent. It's there's different times of 25 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:30,360 year where there's a lot of shoes being sent out for review 26 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,080 and for for testing. So what do you all got going on? 27 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,040 Shoes, Apparel, otherwise? Yeah, I can go first. 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:39,640 I've got a few different things. Like you said, we have a flurry 29 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:40,760 of shoes that have been coming in. 30 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,160 Unfortunately, I don't know what I was thinking. 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:48,720 I did not grab them normally. I have 20 pairs of shoes to the 32 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:53,560 left of me here and I've got 4 so and none of them are the in 33 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,440 for testing. Actually one is but I don't 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,040 think I'm on this review. But this is the Reebok float, 35 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,080 say tread. Cheeto shoe looks like Cheeto. 36 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,840 Shoe, yeah. So it's meant specifically for 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,600 the treadmill, which I find interesting. 38 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,400 And if you ask me, like that rubber, like it's pretty 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,280 aggressive for just being a treadmill. 40 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,880 But anyways, we got that on there that just kind of a 41 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:19,640 neutral kind of lower base shoe. It's got a little bit of 42 00:02:19,640 --> 00:02:22,400 flexibility to it, lower volume, which I thought was surprising, 43 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,240 but yeah, especially with your feet getting hot on the 44 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,200 treadmill. So I thought they would have a 45 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,400 little bit more space there. But other ones we have the on 46 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,520 Cloud Runner three, that written review should be out very soon. 47 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:35,440 Video should be out soon as well. 48 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:40,240 Puma DV8 Nitro 4 video is out. Review should be coming pretty 49 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,800 soon as well. So on Cloud Runner 3 is a mild 50 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,040 moderate stability shoe, just daily training workhorse type 51 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,000 shoe. And Puma DV8 Nitro 4 is kind of 52 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,560 like that. Do it all very responsive but 53 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,840 still lightweight trainer from Puma. 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,280 With your experiences slash how they market it, they market the 55 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,840 cloud runner as a stability model for them or do they market 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:05,000 that as a they do as a stability model? 57 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,040 I mean, I can see they have it has that big clip basically in 58 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:11,200 the heel where it's like this plastic clip that kind of dips 59 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:13,480 into the midsole a little bit. But I didn't know that's what it 60 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,000 was marketed as. Yeah. 61 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:16,920 And then they have one that's like a step up from that. 62 00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:18,360 Klein might know that. What is? 63 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:20,560 It's the on cloud flyer. That's what it was, yeah. 64 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,040 The the step up, yeah. There it is. 65 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:23,960 Well. What I like? 66 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,120 It's like the one with the black and then it has like the rim 67 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,640 around it and then it's like I can picture it but I for some 68 00:03:28,640 --> 00:03:31,680 reason the name was escaping me. What I like about the cloud 69 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,160 runner from a being a quote UN quote stability shoe in their 70 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,440 marketing, at least standpoint, I'm pretty sensitive to 71 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,240 stability shoes, even just like standing and walking around, but 72 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,400 that one isn't so much built into the platform that you stand 73 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:47,040 on, or at least I don't feel it there. 74 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,640 It's much more just the the structure and the width of the 75 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,360 platform. So more of this a very stable, 76 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:55,320 stable neutral. I haven't ran in it yet because 77 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:58,000 I'm still coming back from injury, but from my use during 78 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,880 the day I've I've noticed it being a lot more comfortable 79 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:04,440 than other stability shoes. Yeah, and I wish I had it on me 80 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,520 right now 'cause that that shoe focuses a lot on the rear foot. 81 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,840 If you look, it's very structured around there and it's 82 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,360 like you could tell that's where the majority of stability 83 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,360 emphasis is. And then once you get to like 84 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:17,680 the midfoot and forefoot, it's pretty much just a neutral shoe 85 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:20,519 that's kind of a firmer ride with just kind of a little bit 86 00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:22,280 of soul flaring. So it's kind of like a stable 87 00:04:22,280 --> 00:04:25,320 neutral kind of going from the midfoot forward, but very much 88 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,400 stability in the heel is the feeling I get. 89 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,000 Yeah. I would almost use the term 90 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,680 guidance more in terms of kind of how it's set up where it's 91 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,960 not a lot of like traditional, although the heel clip has been 92 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:39,480 used for years, but that's not always not every company be 93 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:41,760 like, oh, it's a stability shoe. Some people just put that in 94 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:42,680 there. Neutral shoes. 95 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,480 I my pair is still in the box and I I really want to try it 96 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,800 because I'm also the one one of the ones that was harassing 97 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,520 Nathan. As soon as I saw it on REI's 98 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:53,400 website, I'm like, you got we gotta have to shoot. 99 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:56,960 It's just pretty much what poor Nathan has to go through with 100 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,360 like every truth. But just for the for those who 101 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,120 want to know the inside story of the of what a pain I am, don't. 102 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,760 Be nicer to yourself. I'll, I'll try to be nice Sir. 103 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,920 It's in the box because of the specs cause the cloud runner 2 104 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,280 was like I was trying to put together like best lightweight 105 00:05:14,280 --> 00:05:17,440 stability shoe or the the remaining light stability shoes. 106 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:20,080 And then I saw the weight like this so that apparently they 107 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:21,800 have David, correct me if you're wrong. 108 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,120 It's now got Helion HF or at least there's a layer of Helion 109 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:27,200 HF. It says that Yep, the branding 110 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:27,920 has. It. 111 00:05:28,280 --> 00:05:33,720 Yeah, it says it on there. Yeah, but I the weight like went 112 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,280 way up and so I'm just. Like I thought it was just 113 00:05:36,280 --> 00:05:40,640 Helion superfoam. Or is it this is just maybe? 114 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,240 'Cause they they call their Helion, like just the bass 115 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,000 Mitzel Helion Superfoam. That's like its full name, yeah. 116 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,800 Nathan, is it HF or did I get that wrong? 117 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,240 Well, no, I'm David's. David's got me second guessing 118 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,520 myself so. I don't remember the HF in 119 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,360 there. I thought it was Helion and then 120 00:05:56,360 --> 00:05:59,720 Helion H off Yeah, HF, not H off HF. 121 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,240 But I guess the reason I haven't put it on yet is a the reviews 122 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,880 covered by David and and Bach, obviously. 123 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:11,040 But I'm like, oh, I really wanted this to be lighter, which 124 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:12,240 has kind of been my complaint this. 125 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,240 Year I was gonna say there should there should be like a 126 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,360 whole saga about Matt. There could be like some sort of 127 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,560 parody of Matt trying to find a lightweight stability trainer. 128 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,440 And yeah, when they're all dying, yeah, I'm, I'm keeping my 129 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:29,400 hopes up for the Saucony. What is it Hurricane 26 is 130 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,160 supposed to be? Like 9.2 oz right David? 131 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:35,320 Which one the the new hurricane is supposed to be? 132 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,360 Much lighter. Yeah man it's super light. 133 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,800 Same with the I think it might be like 10.1 if I remember 134 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,280 correctly, but it's like pretty light for how much shoe? 135 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:47,320 It's like 42 or 43 I think. Oh wait, so if it's 10.1 that 136 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,440 means technically it's gone up? I thought it was I I had. 137 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,200 For the hurricane, maybe. Maybe it is actually, I don't 138 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:53,080 know. I don't remember. 139 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,560 I remember the triumph is losing a bunch of weight. 140 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,440 That one's getting super light. So yeah, maybe it is. 141 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,440 I gotta yeah, sorry about that. Anyway, I was trying to find the 142 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:08,920 cloud runner here, but even on their website, I don't actually 143 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:10,640 see it. I see Cloud Runner 2. 144 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:13,000 I don't see Cloud Runner 3 on their website yet. 145 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:15,480 We'll report it in our in our written review. 146 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:16,800 We'll have those details in there. 147 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,800 So yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll get to the bottom of that. 148 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,800 Sorry, this is this is a live podcast, so we're figuring this 149 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:24,880 out on air sometimes. Hey, maybe I'm just making this 150 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:25,480 up. Sorry, David. 151 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:26,840 What else? Well, I had another question for 152 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,640 David about the DV84 because I I love the DV83. 153 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,760 The only thing for me it was it fit a little bit snug. 154 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,720 So I got half size up for the 4, but I'm not running in it yet. 155 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,480 I put it on and it felt good like when I stepped into it. 156 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,440 But I've been hearing reports from the team that I would just 157 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,200 love your perspective on it so far. 158 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,360 Yeah, they're all wrong. Don't listen to them. 159 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,200 You like it? Yeah, of course you do. 160 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,040 David's got the Unicorn foot. Yeah, you can handle anything I. 161 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,640 Don't know a lot of other people like it it seems like, but I can 162 00:07:57,640 --> 00:07:59,000 see why they don't like it you know? 163 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,480 We have a video on YouTube for this if you're interested to 164 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,320 hear like the in depth thoughts but. 165 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:05,200 Which is doing really well by the way. 166 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:05,960 Yeah. Well, thanks. 167 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,760 The video, it basically what we're talking about it. 168 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:12,520 So it is lightweight, it is versatile, it is responsive. 169 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,320 It uses Nitro foam. Then there's a top layer that's 170 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,080 a little bit softer. I believe that's Nitro Elite, 171 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,160 Yeah. It also has like a tiny little 172 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:22,600 sidewall there from that foam. I don't know if I feel that 173 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,480 much, but the thing that makes this shoe I think very 174 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:32,840 polarizing is the plate is a carbon plate and it is very 175 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,280 stiff as it transitions into the forefoot and it's spooned out 176 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,080 pretty early. And so it's a pretty early stage 177 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,440 rocker and it almost lines up right with those Met heads. 178 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:47,080 And IF if you lever off of that point naturally, it's going to 179 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:48,520 feel good. You're going to basically just 180 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,640 land and roll right off that forefoot. 181 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:53,920 That's what I do. My only gripe with it is that I 182 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,560 just wish it was a little more flexible because I can feel that 183 00:08:57,560 --> 00:09:00,400 plate once I get over that part and there's like no give to that 184 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:03,480 platform. So once I pick up the pace, it 185 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,880 actually feels pretty smooth and it's nice and it feels like a 186 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,000 racing shoe honestly in a lot of ways. 187 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,800 But any at daily training paces, it doesn't feel bad for me, but 188 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,360 I would just like a little bit more flexibility, that's all. 189 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,400 And if you go to flex the shoe again, I wish I had the darn 190 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:19,880 shoe here. This is like the first time in a 191 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,520 long time I've ever, this is not me. 192 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:24,680 I don't know what happened. We'll hold this against you for 193 00:09:24,680 --> 00:09:28,040 your whole life, yeah? I always have way more shoes 194 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:29,360 than I need and now I don't have enough. 195 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:35,720 But the, if you go to flex it, it will flex, but only in the 196 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:37,640 midfoot. And then if you try and take 197 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,600 that shoe and you isolate it in the forefoot, there ain't no 198 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:42,760 bend. And so I can see why some people 199 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:43,840 are like, well, the shoe's flexible. 200 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:47,000 Look, it bends, but like it does not bend in the front. 201 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:50,640 So like the way it goes functionally is like when you're 202 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,120 running in it, you hit that plate and you get onto that 203 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,960 forefoot and there's just no give to that sucker. 204 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,920 Like you just really got to like, it's got to line up with 205 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:00,240 you. And if it doesn't line up with 206 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,280 you, it's going to be a probably a rough time. 207 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,520 But for those who it does line up with the shoe, actually it 208 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:06,760 does. It's got the goods. 209 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,120 Like it could very much deliver on all of the promises it has. 210 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,120 It just has to line up with your mechanics. 211 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,160 And Matt, you've been testing it too, right? 212 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,880 Yeah, I've got about 30 miles on my pair and I've done quite a 213 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,440 bit of stuff in it. It certainly can run easy, but 214 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:25,240 as David said, that 4 foot is getting to me. 215 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,720 Definitely the first two runs trying to run easy in it, which 216 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,760 again, it's, you know, carbon plated trainer, so that it's 217 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:33,520 relative weather. You know, some people might be 218 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:35,360 able to run that easy in it. Some people it's going to be an 219 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:37,800 only workout shoe. I think for me it would be only 220 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,200 a workout shoe just 'cause it really took until I was going at 221 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,720 faster paces where it felt better. 222 00:10:42,680 --> 00:10:44,920 I've been doing some more treadmill running because it's 223 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,400 just when I have the chance that I'm not running with Isabella in 224 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,200 the stroller. I'm just trying to get like a 225 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,960 quick workout sometimes in just before I go pick her up at 226 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:54,160 George Fox. We have treadmills there and 227 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,920 I've been doing some kind of like really quicker, slowly, 228 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:01,160 progressively quicker two mile tempo runs and getting quicker. 229 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:07,760 And so I used that shoe and did like 529 for the first mile and 230 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:11,520 then 534 and I'm slowly getting better than probably pushing 2. 231 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:12,240 Thousand. Got it. 232 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:13,880 But whatever, yeah. Whatever. 233 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:18,880 Probably it's overtraining it's fine but definitely getting off 234 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:23,120 the treadmill after that. Like my 4 foot on both sides 235 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:25,440 ached and so I was like quick to get it. 236 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,720 Luckily it went away. It didn't it didn't stick around 237 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,880 but it is very a very stiff shoe. 238 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,120 One of the individuals on Davidde video that commented 239 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,040 mentioned hey would half a size up help? 240 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:38,000 And I can't remember was version one or version 2 where I 241 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,000 actually did that and it felt a lot better. 242 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:43,040 Kind of same thing with Nathan where sometimes some of the 243 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:44,840 versions might fit just a teeny bit short. 244 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:48,040 You have 1/2 size. I'm wondering if maybe just why 245 00:11:48,680 --> 00:11:52,200 it's just me hitting the plate the wrong way where maybe 1/2 246 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:54,440 size better up, maybe better, I don't know. 247 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,440 But uppers great. It is more stable than prior 248 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,200 versions, which I didn't like in version 3, but just man, I think 249 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,120 it's stiff. So if you like that, did you 250 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:03,920 I'm. Sorry, you're saying. 251 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,320 So if you like that, I'm like you like that the Kirk, the Kirk 252 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:13,080 cousins, but when sorry, that totally derailed what my next 253 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:15,160 question was going to. Be that's OK. 254 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,160 I, I got a question for Matt actually, how did your Achilles 255 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,160 do with that? Because when I was running on 256 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:24,680 that shoot with how zip that plate was, it almost felt like a 257 00:12:24,680 --> 00:12:28,120 track spike in a weird way. And it, it reminds me a little 258 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,760 bit actually, now that I'm thinking even closer about it. 259 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,040 Do you remember that racing flat that Puma had for 5K10K where 260 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,200 that rocker was super early and you're like falling? 261 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,160 In front of it. Fast forward, Fast forward, yes, 262 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,760 yeah, I still have my pair. Yes, it kind of reminds me a 263 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:45,960 little bit of that. Not quite as aggressive, 264 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,720 obviously. Obviously 1 is a a 5K racing 265 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,080 shoe. This is it was so early and 266 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,120 stiff that it like I could see someone's Achilles getting 267 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:57,760 irritated by that. Yeah, so there there's a couple 268 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,880 variables right now that my Achilles is actually doing very 269 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:01,760 well. At the moment. 270 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,960 I it's getting a little irritated because I have now 271 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,520 started walking full time in my 0 shoes again and I can do it 272 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,640 and I have enough dorsiflexion. It starts to get a little stiff 273 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,960 at the end of the day and a little annoyed, but it recovers 274 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,800 and it's great. So I know if it's that. 275 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,800 But definitely after that run in my other ones it's been a little 276 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:20,760 extra stiff. And since I finished my testing 277 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,200 miles, it's been a little better. 278 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,040 By the way, for the listeners who know my Achilles sent a 279 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:28,560 journey, I am back up to do £100 single leg heel raise. 280 00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:32,880 And those who know the journey of Achilles heelnopathy know 281 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,160 that it can take a while and just know that you just got to 282 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:36,880 keep working at it. And so I still have symptoms 283 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,480 every once in a while and it still comes here and there and 284 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,720 you just keep trucking away and working on stuff and applying 285 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,400 load and being smart. So plyometrics is a really big 286 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:46,800 focus right now. So that he. 287 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:49,880 But anyway, yes, David, to answer your question or your 288 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:51,600 comment, absolutely agree with you. 289 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,200 Although I didn't feel like I towed off early. 290 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,160 It just feels like you hit the stiffness that that maintains 291 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,520 the forefoot, which to me makes the shoe feel much lower drop. 292 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,640 So just kind of a lot more tension, which makes sense 293 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,360 because the plantar flexors, even if I choose plated or 294 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,240 rockered, if the if you're hitting it at like it's too 295 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,480 stiff for you, your plantar flexors are going to have to 296 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:13,840 work harder. So you're going to have more 297 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,120 tension early, especially through the Achille tendon. 298 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:18,440 So it makes sense. It's just, you know, so yes, I 299 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:20,960 just, I'm experiencing A teeny bit differently than I think 300 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:22,800 what I'm hearing, but we might be seeing the same thing. 301 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,080 So what I was going to, what I was going to bring up kind of 302 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:27,360 parallels what you're talking about. 303 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,400 And it was that you said the kind of four foot was sore by 304 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,800 the end of those runs that you did and kind of digging into the 305 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,440 Y. And I think when we look at the, 306 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,280 the research behind stiff rocker bottom shoes, we always talk 307 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,080 about how the calf does less work. 308 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,720 And the reason that the calf does less work in those shoes. 309 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:48,720 This is a, a very generalization. 310 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,640 But the reason that it does less work is because when we 311 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,800 transition to our forefoot, when you're on the rocker, the amount 312 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,040 of force going through the ground into the ball of your 313 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:00,520 foot is less because of that rocker. 314 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,600 So if there's less force into your foot pushing it into 315 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,360 dorsiflexion, that means that there's less demand on the 316 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,080 complex in the back of the calf. So what I was going to ask is, 317 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:16,760 do you think because of the, is it because the placement of the 318 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:18,440 rocker is too late? Or is it because of the 319 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:22,200 stiffness or maybe both that you're having increased just 320 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,920 pressure and that's why it was sore? 321 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,480 Or is it because the muscles in the bottom of your feet were 322 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,360 working harder and that's why their forefoot was sore? 323 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,160 And so I was just trying to tease out if it felt like a 324 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,560 pressure based soreness or like a muscle work based soreness 325 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,200 that you felt in your foot. Oh yeah, it felt like pressure, 326 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,360 like kind of like almost like bone, almost like bone like, oh, 327 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:45,560 this is kind of getting a little like beat up a little bit. 328 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:49,280 To answer your question, I don't know whether it's the plate, the 329 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:53,000 rocker, the rocker, the the curb of the plate, I don't know. 330 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:56,040 But it's a really great point to follow up with yours going, yes, 331 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,160 in theory here's what this does, but there's several pieces that 332 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,520 have to all line up exactly right for you as individual for 333 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,360 this to actually apply. And if something is too stiff, 334 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,680 then that can actually go the other direction where you 335 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,560 actually start actually having more force to the forefoot and 336 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,480 more workload through the gas truck soleus and the plantar 337 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,280 flexor complex. So yeah, it's, I know you may 338 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,520 hear us say it depends. This is a great reason why like, 339 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:21,760 hey, it's got to be the culmination of these pieces. 340 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,520 But theoretically, if this, if these pieces line up, they can 341 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,000 facilitate this piece. This is just one where for me 342 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,560 it's not doing that, but doesn't mean it's not a, it's a slow, 343 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,800 not as slow as shoe. It's just it's really stiff. 344 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,000 Anything else that y'all have in for testing shoe repair wise? 345 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,000 David, did I cut you off early? Do you have a couple? 346 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:43,440 Anything else? I don't know, shout out downtown 347 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,240 crew Rabbit. We've obviously got a ton of 348 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:49,400 rabbit apparel in. Yeah. 349 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,560 So yeah, yeah, this is really nice. 350 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:53,720 I I'm liking this. This will be a go to for the 351 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:55,120 future for sure. Yeah. 352 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:57,400 I will say David asked a question. 353 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,880 This is the rabbit I think cocoon. 354 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:02,160 Oh, you got the cocoon. Oh, that's what that is. 355 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:06,040 Got it. Is that UPF protected like for 356 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,920 long outings? Dude, you probably wouldn't need 357 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:10,880 it. The cocoon is is pretty thick. 358 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,920 So it's like winter time. It's oh, it's winter time. 359 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,400 Yeah, it's it's cold, but it's got the balaclava built in. 360 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:17,880 I love mine. Yeah. 361 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:19,839 That's how. You I've never had one of these 362 00:17:19,839 --> 00:17:22,680 before, but I love it because right now in Oregon, it's like 363 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:25,839 in at least in Sherwood, Sherwood, Newburgh, it's like 364 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:32,280 3028° ish in the morning and. Say it's like going to be -9 365 00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,280 tomorrow. If I say that's cold and 366 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,320 everyone tells me that's not cold, it ain't cold. 367 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:41,560 It's fine. So I -9 Nathan is insane. 368 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,880 It's. Actually going to be like -30 369 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,640 wind chill tomorrow morning. It's, it's not going to be fun. 370 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,800 It's not. So I totally off topic. 371 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,320 I got to write my first couple book chapters thanks to my 372 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:58,040 director at George Fox, whose name is gosh, Jason Brummett, 373 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:02,560 who's amazing. And he at the last like I was 374 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,680 like, Hey, you want to fly out to Champaign, IL and come to 375 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:08,760 human kinetics and like shoot a bunch of videos for like the 376 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:12,040 video component of the book And I'm like sure. 377 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:16,360 So throughout December, I had never been to Champaign in 378 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,240 Illinois before I get off the plane, they're having a sudden 379 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,960 like cold where like it snowed super cold. 380 00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,520 I've never been in negative or sub zero temperatures before 381 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,840 Fahrenheit. I've been in sub 0 Celsius 382 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,920 temperatures, not Fahrenheit. So I go to get off the plane and 383 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,200 get out and step outside to go with this one. 384 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,880 One of the wonderful people who came to pick me up and I go to 385 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,920 breathe and I chose yeah, dude, for real. 386 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,240 And I was like, oh, this is I can't breathe. 387 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:45,440 Take. Your breath away cold exists. 388 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:48,120 Yeah, I never experienced that. So, yeah. 389 00:18:48,120 --> 00:18:52,040 So maybe it's not as cold here, but having this cover your face 390 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,840 in the morning is really nice. And this thing is also super 391 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,120 warm. So anyway, off topic. 392 00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:57,480 Any other shoe? I I have some shoes. 393 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:58,400 Yeah. What do you got? 394 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,120 I have tons of shoes, so I have a ton of stuff that came in. 395 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:04,840 So the hookah, and I'm gonna say this wrong. 396 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,720 It's like the other Kyono. It's like this Kyono version 2 397 00:19:07,720 --> 00:19:10,360 that we don't talk about Govoida. 398 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,520 Gabiota, you got the second time, Gabiota. 399 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,120 I corrected it is actually really nice. 400 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,800 It's much lower volume, but much wider. 401 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,240 It is way more stable and like this is almost borderline a 402 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,320 motion control shoe. I really like it super smooth. 403 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,280 The bevel is in the wrong place. It's facing medial, so heels a 404 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,800 teeny bit clunky, but outside of that it's really good. 405 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:35,840 I'm excited to see what happens to this shoe in the summer 406 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,880 because right now it's in the cold. 407 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:41,400 This Eva seems to be very temperature sensitive, so it's 408 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,160 it's pretty stiff, but still got a smooth. 409 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:52,000 I also have the brooks glycerin DTS 23, which is using kind of 410 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,760 the same setup as the glycerin Max. 411 00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,880 Did I say that right Max 2, which I have found this shoe to 412 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:02,800 be just weirdly firm uppers a little bit better, a little 413 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,560 wider still a teeny bit short, but yeah, this midsole is so 414 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,480 firm. I don't know why every every 415 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,880 other reviewer is like so luxurious and like this is. 416 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,120 Really firm. I'm trying to let it break in, 417 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:17,080 but it's yeah, just like the glitter Max. 418 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,960 Two DNA tuned because. DNA tuned it's been really for 419 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,800 I'm sure some people are going to like that and I'm probably 420 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,120 hitting it in a way that's just not the right way, but that's 421 00:20:26,120 --> 00:20:28,520 just me. The one that's not I'm not 422 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,680 hitting wrong is the Diadora Vigore 5 or V. 423 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,240 This shoe is actually pretty solid. 424 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,280 It's a lot heavier than I think they're like trying to 425 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:38,400 advertise. It's supposed to be like a 426 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:42,160 lightweight stability shoe. It's it's like 11.4 ounces in my 427 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,560 size 10. So it's not light, but the two 428 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,280 layers is a kind of bouncier mixed Eva. 429 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,200 It's like super critical Eva on top. 430 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,520 That's actually pretty nice. And so I've done some up tempo 431 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:53,000 stuff in this. It's actually not bad. 432 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,640 And the final one, which I thought it was going to hate and 433 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,360 I'm really enjoying, is going to be the Skechers Arrow. 434 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:06,680 Razors, I thought this. Was going to be yeah, I thought 435 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,640 this was not going to be good. And I was like, and then I 436 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:12,800 grabbed it for one of the two mile tempos and I was like, oh, 437 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,840 this is really good. I really like this shoe. 438 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,560 What do you it's what, like 140 bucks? 439 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,240 Well, have they? Is it still hyperburst ice or 440 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,360 what's the midsole? Hyperburst Pro. 441 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,400 It is Hyperburst Pro, which apparently is like and somebody 442 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,120 correct me. It's like an ATPU. 443 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Cause embargo is what do we got. We're on the 18th. 444 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,440 You can say that it exists, you just can't say too much more 445 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,600 than that. That's it. 446 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,040 My bad, it exists all. Right, so this is a shoe that 447 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:42,680 exists and I can't stand anymore. 448 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,440 I think we're good. I've got. 449 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:48,480 I've got 1. Anyway, that's what I got. 450 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:50,160 I've got 1 shoe. I'm actually really excited 451 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,120 about, I think maybe not everybody knows, but my other. 452 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,480 I love hanging out with friends and my friends got into 453 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:02,080 pickleball and therefore I also got into pickleball and I've 454 00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:06,240 worn a couple shoes from this company to play pickleball and 0 455 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,000 so 0 the I use their basketball shoe for it, which is fun. 456 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,520 It was like really stiff and I can I would I can't wait to not 457 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,480 that I'm good at basketball, but like if my kids ever want to 458 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:19,200 play basketball, I will play basketball with them. 459 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:24,400 But the 360 rally is their new court shoe that they just 460 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,840 dropped like recently, but I've had this for a while. 461 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,320 It has a lot more flexibility than the basketball shoe. 462 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,240 Like the the four foot is a little bit more flexible. 463 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,920 So it feels in some ways more nimble for like just side to 464 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,480 side or like quick movements for I I would use this for tennis 465 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,760 too, because I play tennis as well. 466 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:49,400 Not well, but I do also play tennis, so yeah, a lot, a lot 467 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,720 more flexibility. Like in the basketball shoe, 468 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:53,880 there's a really rigid heel counter in this one. 469 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:55,520 It's flexible. It's got like a little bit of a 470 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,760 reinforcement here, but they reinforce the midsole, the 471 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,440 midfoot pretty good. They have like harder kind of 472 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,960 thicker plastic things around the midfoot to kind of hold it 473 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,520 tight for the cutting. So even though there's 474 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,280 flexibility, it's got the stability element. 475 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,040 So it's good. Excited to keep getting back 476 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,520 into that stuff too. I know people probably don't 477 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:15,080 care about pickleball shoes, but. 478 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:17,880 I I think that's cool, right? Especially. 479 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:20,920 It's also started to like, I don't know, we talk about 480 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:22,880 running shoes so much. It's been fun to think about 481 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,840 footwear for other things, you know, like it works for lifting 482 00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:27,840 too. Like it because it's so like 483 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,960 stable on the ground. So I, I can get a lot of use out 484 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,560 of the the court shoe. Anything else agreed that people 485 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,000 wanted to talk about? Are we ready to move into the 486 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,640 main segment? I can give a quick shout out to 487 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:43,040 Burrito League. So because it's not just here, 488 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,440 it's like everywhere. I don't know who started it. 489 00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,680 So shout out to whoever started Burrito League if you're 490 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,160 listening to this, but you have wreaked absolute madness upon 491 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,360 the city of Santa Barbara because it is 1/4 mile segment 492 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,040 like from one of the taquerias in the Funk Sun. 493 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:01,280 And it's literally we're talking like maybe two blocks. 494 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,200 It's like a corner. You make a right very quick 495 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,480 little St. crossing and then the next corner and then back. 496 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:09,520 And the segment's about 1/4 mile. 497 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,520 And so for those who are not educated on burrito, like, like 498 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,200 whoever is the local legend at the end of the month on this 499 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,120 segment will get free burritos for a year from this 500 00:24:19,120 --> 00:24:23,320 participating taqueria. And there's other areas doing 501 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:24,920 this as well. So it's not just the Santa 502 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:28,600 Barbara thing, but the person who's currently in lead in the 503 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:34,360 leaderboard as of one week from this window opening is at 170 504 00:24:34,360 --> 00:24:37,520 something miles already. That's a big boy week for 505 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,600 anybody. It's like you have to. 506 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:43,280 You have to. Yeah. 507 00:24:44,360 --> 00:24:46,160 It's like it would make my brain bleed. 508 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,680 So for people. That's running 100 and 75175 509 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,760 miles a week. What's his name? 510 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,760 Oh my gosh I'm blanking. I would know it if I darn it. 511 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,440 Long hair. Anyways that dude. 512 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,920 And that's the crazy thing is it's not like it's just him at 513 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,800 the top and then there's a massive fall off. 514 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,320 I think 2nd place was like 140 ish and then third and fourth 515 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,800 were tied for 110. Like these people are not 516 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,200 messing around for these free burritos. 517 00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,760 It's insane. Well, they have to cross paths 518 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,400 like they must see each other and be like, Oh my God, a lot 519 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,760 of. People are doing laps together. 520 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:21,600 Wow. Oh. 521 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,640 My God, I paid my respects. I I did a little over a mile 522 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,400 worth of burrito leak and then I was like, I'm going to go run on 523 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,960 the waterfront. And have a life. 524 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,520 Awesome. If I saw, if I saw in Strava, 525 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,680 somebody did like 107, I'd be like, you know what, I'm going 526 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:37,920 to go run on the run on the waterfront. 527 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,480 Too Well, yeah, it's crazy when you see people doing, like there 528 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,320 have been multiple people that have done a marathon or longer 529 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,960 in a single effort just, well, I mean, when you're doing that 530 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,200 many miles, you're averaging about that every day anyways. 531 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:52,680 Like it's, yeah, just back and forth, back and forth, back and 532 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,600 forth until you just can't process life anymore. 533 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,640 And then then you start walking it and then until you can't walk 534 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:00,280 anymore. It's crazy. 535 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,320 You crawl. Then you go and get some food 536 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:05,640 and then you get back at it. Yeah. 537 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:08,360 You get a burrito and then you go. 538 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:10,480 But anyway, shout out Burrito League. 539 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,200 Burrito League. Well, as always, the infra 540 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,960 testing segment is fueled by Scratch Labs. 541 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,080 Scratch Labs has fantastic fuel options, not burritos, but other 542 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,640 fuel as well as hydration and you can check their stuff out at 543 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,000 scratchla-bs.com. If you're wanting 20% off your 544 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,120 first order with them, you can use the code Doctors of Running. 545 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,160 So our main segment today, we are going to be talking about a 546 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,720 part of shoes that is often under heralded, not talked about 547 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:42,560 as much. Usually we're spending time on 548 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,960 the midsole where you're getting all the foams, you're getting 549 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,000 the plates and you're getting geometry and you're getting 550 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,120 stability elements, you're getting all the stuff built into 551 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,920 that. We want to spend a little bit of 552 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:56,920 time talking about a little bit more of a hard to pin down 553 00:26:56,920 --> 00:27:00,760 what's actually best all the time part of a shoe, and that's 554 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,120 the upper. And we wanted to talk through 555 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:07,760 our observations of the three biggest issues that we've 556 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,120 noticed with upper construction in the last year or two. 557 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,440 And so each of us have written down our top three issues that 558 00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,200 we've experienced personally or that we've seen with running 559 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,040 friends or with patients and things like that. 560 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:23,160 And so that's we're going to be walking through is what are the 561 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,840 issues with uppers and why might that be an issue and what issues 562 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,240 can that cause? Before we get into that, I did a 563 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,080 little bit of a lit review just looking at what, what do we know 564 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,000 about uppers? And there's some stuff out 565 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,160 there, but it's also an under researched area maybe because 566 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,960 it's not as obvious to be able to tie upper construction to 567 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,720 injury or upper construction to performance. 568 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:48,600 I think we it's pretty clear that the purpose of the upper is 569 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,680 to hold the foot on the platform well and it's also meant to 570 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,080 accommodate the foot that is living within the upper. 571 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,240 Before I say the study results, Matt, did you have something you 572 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,480 wanted to? Add I I will say as a, as a bio 573 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,800 mechanist who's kind of like look through this stuff, I have 574 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,040 some potential footwear research in the that's being developed 575 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:11,840 right now. Uppers are really hard to do bio 576 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:16,120 mechanics research on because it's very difficult to get 577 00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:21,400 markers on the foot when the foot is in side of something. 578 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,360 It's much easier like to get look at the midsole and then do 579 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:27,240 like you look at ground reaction forces on a force plane in 580 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,600 treadmill and be like, oh, we can calculate and like figure 581 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,520 all this stuff out. What's happening in ankle, even 582 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,320 at the forefoot, knee, hip, it's much harder to track movement 583 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:38,720 within the shoe and kind of seeing what's happened. 584 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,600 You can do a lot of stuff with comfort, but then it's hard to 585 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,120 have anything to translate that with. 586 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:45,440 Some people have done some very interesting things where they 587 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,040 will cut holes in the shoe, I remember and then we'll put the 588 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:51,880 the markers and the markers. By the way, for those who don't 589 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,600 know, when you do a lot of bio mechanics, you use it like a 3D 590 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,320 motion capture system. There are marketless systems 591 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,040 now, but mostly the old, the traditional ways you take these 592 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,400 reflective dots, stick them on people. 593 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,360 The motion capture system like calculates and figures and 594 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,920 creates some a 3D model based on the dots and is able to help you 595 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,880 calculate things So the dots. Some people have cut holes in 596 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,840 the shoe so you can stick the dots directly on the foot which 597 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,880 has been done for like heel counters but that hasn't really 598 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,440 been reproduced because usually the shoes then like 1 use or a 599 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:22,960 few. And that changes the upper 600 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,400 stability because you have holes in it. 601 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,120 So like that was Matt Trudeau from, he worked for Brooks 602 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,800 previously, but he called it the Holy Shoe Study. 603 00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:31,960 That's how they talked about it in the House. 604 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,760 The studies that I were looking at, we're kind of looking at 605 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,040 what I think most people think about when they think about 606 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,800 what's wrong with an upper. And it was about foot shape. 607 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,920 And so the studies were military studies where they would give 608 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,880 some people random uppers and they would give some people 609 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,520 uppers that matched their their foot profile. 610 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,560 And then they would try as best as they could to control for all 611 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,840 the other factors that could influence injury. 612 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,160 And they looked at injury prevalence in a prospective 613 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,480 manner. And I looked at two different 614 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,200 studies that were pretty big and in both studies there was no 615 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,960 difference in injury incidents just due to the upper itself and 616 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,600 just having a, an anatomically shaped upper. 617 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,880 And they would even pair it to the person, not just you get 618 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,160 anatomic, quote UN quote and you get non anatomic, they would 619 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,760 pair it to what that person's foot shape was narrow to wide. 620 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,680 So they they weren't really seen injury directly to that. 621 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,240 But those studies are hard because there's so much to have 622 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,040 to control for. So with that being said, we 623 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,200 might talk about foot shape. We might talk about that sort of 624 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,360 accommodation within our observations. 625 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:39,280 But we also hope to just go a little bit further because 626 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,960 there's a little bit more here that's going to be left to the 627 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,760 critical eye, the clinical eye and our understanding of our 628 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,040 experiences because there aren't big scale studies that help us 629 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:53,920 understand this in ways as well. So what we're going to do, we 630 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,200 each have our three. We haven't necessarily talked 631 00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,200 much about what these three are, but David, do you want to share 632 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,120 what one of your three biggest issues that you've noticed with 633 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:04,400 uppers is? Yeah. 634 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,080 And I imagine there will be some overlap with this across the 635 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,080 board. But, and this is in no 636 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:18,120 particular order for my 3, but one is having both a low volume 637 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,240 in the forefoot and a narrow forefoot combined with each 638 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,160 other. And sometimes, like with certain 639 00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,160 shoes, I'm OK with the lower volume, like a track spike or a 640 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,920 racing shoe, as long as there's a little bit of width, like as 641 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,040 you got some space down there, I'm OK with it being a little 642 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:33,640 snug. But when it's snug and it's 643 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,600 tight, then that can feel a little constricting on the foot. 644 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,040 And this is an example where this is actually a racing shoe, 645 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,560 but I it doesn't work very well with me for that reason. 646 00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:49,120 This is the Solomon S Lab Pulsar 4, and I guess on the video it 647 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,080 doesn't look that that actually looks wider than it is. 648 00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,840 But when you look in the the way the tongue is, it's like it's 649 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:59,240 gusted real tight and in like your foot's in there. 650 00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,080 It's not going anywhere. Like even if I just stick my 651 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,240 hand in there, like it's just like it's in there. 652 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,920 It's almost like a cleat. And then it on the inner part 653 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,280 here, it's just really low volume and the toe box isn't 654 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,000 super wide. And so if there isn't anything 655 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,200 to make that fabric kind of just expand out laterally a little 656 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,360 bit, that foot can feel like it's getting choked a little. 657 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,680 And that could probably be fixed if I just went up a half size. 658 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,560 But that is my normal size that I wear and it is meant to be a 659 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,360 little bit more of a snug nibble shoe. 660 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,720 Like I, I, I get the purpose and the reason, but sometimes when a 661 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,640 shoe has both of those combined, it can just be a little bit 662 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:36,120 uncomfortable on the forefoot there. 663 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,560 And I know I'm not alone on that one. 664 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,440 Yeah, I can jump in here with you because mine's slightly 665 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,560 different, but it has the same result in terms of, I would say 666 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:48,280 comfort. But even for me, like causes 667 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,600 discomfort and pain if I wear them too much. 668 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:56,760 And, and it's not just the volume, like how how tall the 669 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,600 toe box is and specifically how wide the toe box for me, it's 670 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:06,000 that lack of room at the transition between the midfoot 671 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,840 and the forefoot. So with this, this is one of the 672 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,360 ultra shoes that I think is a really good example. 673 00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,520 So usually ultra, right? Like you have the anatomic toe 674 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:18,320 box, but the distal or like the far part of the lacing structure 675 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,640 is kind of where your your MTP joints usually sit about there. 676 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,080 That's like the ball of your foot. 677 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:30,680 And often times the lacing system is connected with some 678 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,000 sort of thicker, more robust plastic material. 679 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,800 And then some shoes, I don't know if you can see it well on 680 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,120 here, but they'll have like a reinforcement that stretches 681 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,920 from that furthest part of the lacing down to the midsole to 682 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,400 add again more structure to the midfoot. 683 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,840 The problem for me is when there is not enough height or width in 684 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:55,760 this area to accommodate the bulkiest part of my foot. 685 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,960 So the ball of my foot has that highest volume and the highest 686 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,640 width. And so when there is not enough 687 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:06,400 room and then you have this sort of non stretch material that 688 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:11,159 locks it down, it can pinch my metatarsals together, which is 689 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:13,600 uncomfortable and it kind of just changes the line of pull 690 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,800 for the muscles of your feet a bit as well. 691 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,760 And then it can just can create compression between your 692 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,760 metatarsals. And so that's that for me is a 693 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,080 huge issue, not necessarily the toe box itself, but that 694 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,719 transition into it, whereas there are other shoes that don't 695 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,080 have that reinforcement. So like this is a similar shoe 696 00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:37,040 from Topo. And so you still have, you know, 697 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,239 the distal part of that lacing system that has some 698 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,960 reinforcements, but you can see there's none of that kind of 699 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,760 like overlay going down to the midsole. 700 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,639 So this one stretches out and accommodates to the size of my 701 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,040 the ball of my foot, which I think is a big deal from a 702 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,719 comfort standpoint for particularly if I'm getting into 703 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,000 longer runs. It just gets really 704 00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,520 uncomfortable. And I don't think it's necessary 705 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,720 either because if you can lock things down in the midfoot, 706 00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,000 well, you don't need security as much on that distal part of the 707 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:08,760 lacing system where the ball the foot is. 708 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,400 Matt, what would you say for one of yours? 709 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,160 I'm going to add and keep it consistent with you 2 and stay 710 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,320 in the four foot region and it kind of add to what David said 711 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,440 where yet lower volume kind of more snug with. 712 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,240 I also want to characterize this just from a biomechanical 713 00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:30,920 standpoint and I I want to clarify before this say this, I 714 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,840 can appreciate mentalism and barefoot. 715 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,160 I am not a die hard for that. I walk around barefoot as much 716 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,000 as I can, especially on my Achilles doing better. 717 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,960 It's not for everyone and it's really clear that it's there's 718 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:44,600 certain population do great and other people absolutely not. 719 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,960 That's not a good idea for them. So and I won't get into that 720 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,760 right now. However, for me, one of the 721 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,280 things that really bugs me is very similar to David, but it's 722 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,600 also just like extremely tapered toe boxes. 723 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,240 We're like, you got to happen to that. 724 00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,440 Yeah, a halfway decent like 4 foot width and just this really 725 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,840 fast taper. And sometimes this is OK. 726 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,200 I think David, you hit this really well. 727 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,280 I was going to add to what you said that it's not just like 728 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,800 like volume and width. Sometimes they actually like 729 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,200 like the shoe you were holding up. 730 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,560 I think that the the width is actually, if, if it wasn't for 731 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:19,880 this factor, it'd be OK. It might stretch a little bit, 732 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,120 but when you have these toe guards that are so rigid and 733 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,480 stiff, not only can those like there's better ways to do this. 734 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,960 Like I think a lot of companies for a brief period we're 735 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,280 starting to put them on the outside and they were a little 736 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,320 bit more flexible. It seems like we've gone 737 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,640 backwards and not getting back to really stiff toe guards that 738 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,600 there's no flexibility and it's just crushing your toes to your 739 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,160 toes. The skin even with the sock is 740 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,760 sitting right up against the harsh toe guard is just asking 741 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,640 for blisters. So the reason I bring up 742 00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:53,040 barefoot Minimals first is that you've kind of got some basic 743 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,800 alignment that you need. And this the this the hand's not 744 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:57,520 the greatest example. So I'm going to take the thumb 745 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,280 away because that's not great. But like your toes are basically 746 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,360 supposed to be essentially straight. 747 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,440 If you know and have some room to wiggle, you shouldn't have 748 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,920 everything smashed together. And there's some exceptions, 749 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:10,640 right? Like, and I've learned this with 750 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,160 like climbing shoes, for example, it is kind of better to 751 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,720 have everything locked down. There's some variation depending 752 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:19,360 on the activity, but running, you don't want things locked 753 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:20,880 down. I mean even track spikes, some 754 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,880 of the track spikes are actually kind of getting a little bit 755 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,040 more 4 foot room because I think they're learning and somebody 756 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,000 can correct me if I'm totally wrong on this. 757 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,840 This is a guess that like to be able to disperse some of the 758 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,600 forces with such a stiff plate cause of knockout. 759 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,120 Now they've got track spice plus a carbon fire plate there. 760 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:39,640 You might need a little width just to spread out because this 761 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:42,480 is actually one way you can shock absorb is you need this 762 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,640 motion. So track spikes, some of them 763 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:46,880 seem to getting wider than they used to be and that maybe I'm 764 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,920 wrong, but the couple that I have is like actually got some 765 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,200 wiggle room. But if you don't, if things are 766 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,840 just getting smashed together and you got this kind of harsher 767 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:59,520 material rubbing on your feet, like, man, it's blister, sick, 768 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,400 blister and callous city. And so, you know, companies kind 769 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,520 of got to make a choice. And I get that my, my foot 4 770 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:07,760 foot's a little more sensitive as David mentioned. 771 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:11,800 And I typically like a little bit more toe box room that's 772 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:15,160 might some people have a narrow forefoot and may like a little 773 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,680 more taper. Nathan, I know you have a little 774 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,680 bit more narrow foot than me if I remember correctly. 775 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,600 So feel free to disagree with me. 776 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,000 It's funny, I'm not going to disagree. 777 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,560 I'm going to completely agree. It's on my list so. 778 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,080 OK, great. OK, got it. 779 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,920 I got you with Yeah, but just it doesn't need to be a barefoot 780 00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,160 style shoe. It doesn't need to be like ultra 781 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,320 or topo wide. They have their own things that 782 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,320 they're due, but just kind of remembering like basic bio 783 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,920 mechanics of like human function that really especially the big 784 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,480 toe should be able to function in the sagittal plane and not 785 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,920 get forced outwards. It's not going to do as well 786 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,240 over here. It does well here. 787 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:53,760 So kind of just making sure that you are respectful of size and 788 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,720 structure and thinking about what the forefoot's supposed to 789 00:38:56,720 --> 00:38:57,920 do. And you know, maybe I'm wrong 790 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,440 and maybe I need to half size up, but I have half a thumbs 791 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:02,840 with between my toes and the end of the shoe. 792 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,040 It's just the Tabor. Yeah, I'm glad that you said 793 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,560 that too, because now that I'm thinking about it now, this is 794 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,920 for a shoe that I can't talk about, but in my feedback for a 795 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:15,400 hard test in one of these models, that was exactly the 796 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:16,880 case. There was a tow guard and it 797 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:21,040 tapered quick and I did rub, you know, my 4th and 5th digit on 798 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,000 there a little bit. And I did get a little bit of a 799 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,840 blister and a hotspot from it, especially over the course of 800 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:30,840 1415 miles of running. So definitely something worth to 801 00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:32,920 worth noting. So I'm glad that you said that. 802 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,040 And I will clarify, by the way, Yeah, they could go for it, 803 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:37,400 yeah. Finished and then I'll I'll jump 804 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,520 in after. I was going to clarify, one of 805 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,520 the things that people might jump on really quick is like, 806 00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:43,400 oh, you know, if you have a taper toe box, you're going to 807 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,840 be going to have a bunion and things are a little more 808 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:47,840 complicated. To my knowledge, I don't think 809 00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,200 we've, there's been any longitudinal studies that have 810 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,960 actually linked like toe box width and bunions. 811 00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,960 I think that's more of like a clinical hypothesis that a lot 812 00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:59,120 of people talk about. I don't know if we and somebody 813 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,800 correct me, I don't think we have like actual good long term 814 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,440 evidence on that. It makes sense though. 815 00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,200 And then the other, the one on the other side. 816 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,200 By the way, if it's not on the like traditional bunions going 817 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,160 to be the first toe, you can also get what's called the 818 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,520 Taylor's bunion on. On the 5th metatarsal will get 819 00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:18,280 shoved in too much and you get growth out there. 820 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:21,080 So you know I. Think the best evidence that we 821 00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:24,560 have from a bunion discussion and just for those who may not 822 00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:28,360 know a bunion is when you have kind of what what happens is 823 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,880 there's like hallux abductivalgus that meant even 824 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,920 less than a bunion. But basically your big toe is 825 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,280 being pushed towards your smaller toes, which makes it 826 00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,120 look like you got this big kind of Bony prominence where your 827 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,840 first all of your the first joint, the big toe, the ball of 828 00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:46,400 the foot right there. Which also can become a. 829 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,320 It can become a Bony prominent. Correct. 830 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,600 So I think the best evidence we have for that actually looks 831 00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:56,480 more at differences in bunion prevalence in different cultures 832 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,840 who have different footwear habits. 833 00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,120 So like in the United States where especially in times when 834 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,720 high heels were with with pointed toes were much more 835 00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:09,320 prevalent, there's a higher prevalence in the United States 836 00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,440 in comparison to other countries where that was not a a footwear 837 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:16,160 stylistic preference. So obviously that is not the 838 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,120 only difference between those two parts of the world and how 839 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,240 people exist and what they do with their activities. 840 00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:25,880 But I think that's where some of those studies do come from. 841 00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,880 The thing I wanted to add regarding because of my other 842 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,560 one was too early of a taper, but I also added without any 843 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:39,320 accommodating upper with it. So I think it's common at my my 844 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,880 example, I'll just use this example is the mega blast, which 845 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,720 is a shoe that I love, but the especially on the lateral side. 846 00:41:46,720 --> 00:41:49,560 So by the little toes that tapers really hard and there is 847 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,920 some taper here. And this is one of those as well 848 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,640 that has that toe guard, that kind of thickened component of 849 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,160 the upper to kind of maintain the shaping of of the toe box. 850 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,800 But with this taper, it's paired with one of these synthetic 851 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,240 uppers that has like basically no stretch to it. 852 00:42:06,720 --> 00:42:11,120 So you are going to get what you get in terms of fit and the 853 00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,800 shape where is something that is a lot more flexible. 854 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,200 I'm just going to pull this one up again just because it's a 855 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,120 very flexible kind of mesh upper. 856 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,200 This is the ST6 from Topo. This sort of mesh upper is going 857 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,040 to be able to stretch. So even if there was a little 858 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:26,960 bit of a taper for me, it wouldn't be a problem. 859 00:42:26,960 --> 00:42:31,720 If it's an accommodating upper, where is this one is not 860 00:42:31,720 --> 00:42:35,280 accommodating And therefore I feel the effects, which I think 861 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:40,080 is OK if the shoe is designed a certain way or for a certain 862 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,760 purpose like this shoe. I want to take this shoe super 863 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,600 long, like I want to run far distances in the Mega Blast. 864 00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:51,680 So I would love an upper that doesn't mess with me over again, 865 00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,680 long couple hour runs. So I think that's where I think 866 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,120 it can fall short is when you have this too early taper 867 00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,720 without Nakani, an upper in a shoe that you want to be using 868 00:42:59,720 --> 00:43:04,360 for high mileage. David, what's another one you 869 00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,320 have? Yeah, getting all fired up. 870 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,560 This one's probably not as big of a deal, and it might be 871 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,800 geographic more than anything, but. 872 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,400 Yeah, probably. I soft in paradise. 873 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,600 That's a little bit, yeah. It's just, well, it could be a 874 00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:27,160 little bit warmer out West too, but overly plush and thick and 875 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,000 warm uppers where there's a tipping point where when you go 876 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,520 premium, everyone goes and gets nice material. 877 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,800 They get it real soft, real. And it gets really thick and 878 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:41,000 like, it feels like a sock on your foot, but not in the best 879 00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,120 way. Like I got a thick 1, you know, 880 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,000 and the best example I could think of this lately, and it's 881 00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:48,680 funny because it's in a shoe that I like. 882 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,160 So it's like one of those things where I'm like, I just wish this 883 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,560 upper was a little different is the Brooks glycerin Max 2. 884 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,480 This upper is so thick and it runs warm and I have gotten a 885 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,520 hotspot in it before. So like how you were saying like 886 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,520 you want to take the shoe long for the mega blast. 887 00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,080 I'd love to take this shoe long. I love the geometry. 888 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,840 It works well with me. It has like the way the rocker 889 00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:13,080 profiles up front, like I just fall right off my foot and 890 00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,280 there's plenty of cushioning like this could easily be a 891 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,280 workhorse and long run shoe for me. 892 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:21,760 Not to go fast just for shuffling, but the upper is 893 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:25,360 really thick and it runs really warm and it almost feels like 894 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:27,280 it's, it's so thick that it almost feels like there's 895 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,160 padding to it, even though there isn't, you know what I mean? 896 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,480 And it gets hot, you know, and it doesn't even have to be all 897 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,760 that hot for me to feel hot in those shoes. 898 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,720 Like we're talking like maybe 70°. 899 00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:43,120 And that's a very reasonable temperature, I think for 900 00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,920 running. But I mean, I'd growing up, I'd 901 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,760 run in 100 plus degree weather all the time and I could not, 902 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,480 there was no way on earth I could wear that in 100° weather. 903 00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,360 Not that I should be running in 100° weather, but like I think 904 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:01,000 85 to 95 is reasonable. You know, I would, I'd like to 905 00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,600 be able to run in that degree temperature, but I don't even 906 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:07,800 know if I can run in greater than 75 to 80 in these. 907 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,960 So yeah, sorry, that's, there's, there's my rant on that one. 908 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,280 But I think when they go too far onto that side of things, it can 909 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,440 be a little difficult for me 'cause otherwise I love the 910 00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,640 shoe, which so it's like a little heartbreaking for me 911 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:22,880 where it's like, darn it, like it was almost great. 912 00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,600 As I sit here in winter, I'm like, but that's perfect. 913 00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:29,720 Exactly. And that's like what you said. 914 00:45:29,720 --> 00:45:33,320 That's how you prefaced it. So right, It matters when. 915 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,400 That's why I probably someone like David, even though Santa 916 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,560 Barbara, correct me if I'm wrong, it rains a decent amount 917 00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:39,600 there. It got a little bit more maybe 918 00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,320 than LA at least you guys get at least got harder rain. 919 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,680 You probably wouldn't. It never rains here until it 920 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,920 does, and then it. Yeah, there we go. 921 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:50,400 Yeah, that that's the better way of. 922 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,320 Putting it and then everything you prodded in the mountains 923 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:55,160 coming down. And you probably wouldn't do 924 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,840 well with a Gore Tex upper because while those are 925 00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,880 waterproof and great, it's also going to capture a lot of heat. 926 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:05,120 Whereas someone like Nathan or myself, Nathan probably more so 927 00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,080 a Gore Tex upper is going to make way more sense. 928 00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,560 So I think specificity of environment, yeah, I think 929 00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:11,320 you're totally right. Give. 930 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:14,560 Me the run shield bring it back. Sock any, bring it back. 931 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:16,320 But the Gore Tex. Is a great. 932 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,000 Job like I've been fine with gore Tex uppers. 933 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,720 Yeah, that's. Fine. 934 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:25,160 It's just like the material itself warms up and then it's 935 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:27,240 like a big world sock on your foot. 936 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:29,480 Yeah, that's what I want. That's what I want right now. 937 00:46:30,240 --> 00:46:34,240 Right now, Right now it's. Almost like 2 premium, which is 938 00:46:34,240 --> 00:46:36,480 like, I can't believe I just said that, but oh. 939 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,720 It's good. Matt, do you do you have another 940 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:42,000 one? Yeah, I'm gonna move back along 941 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,600 the shoe and talk about, like, tongue design. 942 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:47,880 This is something that either is like, really great or terrible. 943 00:46:48,720 --> 00:46:50,640 And that this could go what of two ways? 944 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:56,320 Tongues that are way too thick and ones that are way too thin. 945 00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,720 And the reason why is, and this is being particular, these are 946 00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:01,160 the things I've experienced. I've also experienced this with 947 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,800 a ton of patients that come in super freaked out. 948 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,480 Oh my gosh, I had this like terrible pain on the top of my 949 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:07,160 foot. What is this? 950 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:09,320 And then you release their shoes and they're like, oh, it's gone. 951 00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:13,880 So you have a lot of very exposed tendons on the top of 952 00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:16,160 your foot. These are all the muscles that 953 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:19,320 the tendons of the muscles that either extend your toes or a 954 00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:21,160 couple of them actually help extend your ankle. 955 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,120 They are, there's not a lot of mass up there. 956 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,120 You don't have a lot of like soft tissue like you do on the 957 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,120 bottom of the foot. You don't have a lot of 958 00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:31,440 compartments there. Things are exposed. 959 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:35,320 And it's also one of the reasons why that area is really easy to 960 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:38,480 take. Why am I blanking heart rate 961 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:40,520 from feet, right? So generally heart rate's taking 962 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:44,000 kind of like either at the wrist or at the at the neck. 963 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,520 You know, you can take it. There's a pedal pulse as well. 964 00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,000 And the reason you take it kind of the top generally at the top 965 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:50,600 of the foot is because it's so exposed. 966 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,000 You can, you can even sometimes see it. 967 00:47:52,720 --> 00:47:55,960 My point with this is you need to make sure you protect that 968 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,040 because if you don't either the, if the tongue is too thin, 969 00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,200 you're the laces are just going to pinch down, especially on 970 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:03,840 shoes that fit a little bit wider. 971 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,480 And for those of us that maybe have normal or narrow with feet, 972 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:09,880 if you got to crank the laces down, then you need something 973 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:12,320 that's protecting your foot. On the flip side, you also don't 974 00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,200 want something that's so thick because the other thing that's 975 00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,120 going to happen for people that have like a higher instep is 976 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:21,320 that it's going to put a lot of pressure down on the pore top of 977 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,000 the foot. So it's kind of like tongues 978 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:24,720 need to be done well. And I'm seeing some companies 979 00:48:24,720 --> 00:48:28,120 really experiment with like like selected padding and trying to 980 00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,680 save weight and like, that's cool. 981 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:31,800 But then I just see sometimes people go back and just these 982 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:35,440 like weirdly thick or just way too thin things that are. 983 00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,040 And this is a personal thing. I really prefer tongues that are 984 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,040 gusseted because it tends to help keep them secure. 985 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,600 And I like the wrap of the foot. I know not everybody does. 986 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:45,600 So that's I'm leaving that alone for right now, even though that 987 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:49,400 that is a pet peeve. But just like we've been doing 988 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:53,280 this long enough that just cause you either have a fast shoe or a 989 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,720 premium shoe doesn't mean you need to stereotype it and make 990 00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:58,800 this just insanely thin tongue that causes people like pinching 991 00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,480 on the top of the foot or way too thick. 992 00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:03,800 And it's like this is literally getting in the way of my foot. 993 00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,480 And then it starts to slide off the side if it's ungusted. 994 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,360 And it just makes it's a pain to have to stop multiple times and 995 00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:11,520 readjust this. Nobody wants to stop a running. 996 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,280 They want to get it done. So you know. 997 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:19,160 Yeah, I I had I something about tongue construction almost made 998 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,040 my list. And it was particularly a 999 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,920 mismatch between the padding in the heel counter and the type of 1000 00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,560 tongue that they put in. So the, a good example was like, 1001 00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:33,200 I think it was the Nimbus 24 was the first time they used this 1002 00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,640 tongue where it's like, and they have it in the newest one again, 1003 00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:39,560 where it's like kind of like a knitted, it almost looks like a 1004 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,120 knit tongue. And it's really. 1005 00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:42,440 Stretchy. And it's just really. 1006 00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,880 Thin and then in the back, the heel is like premium padding. 1007 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,800 And what I find for me what happens is then the padding 1008 00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,240 pushes me forward further into that tongue. 1009 00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,520 And so I feel like I don't sit in the right spot in the shoe 1010 00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,600 and I got to really mess with the lacing more. 1011 00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,880 And I, I think I might be in a minority because I actually 1012 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,000 talked to ASICS about that specific design and they said of 1013 00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,200 all of their, because they do big wear testing for their 1014 00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:08,520 stuff, they're like, that was one of our most positively 1015 00:50:08,520 --> 00:50:11,800 commented things was the tongue. And so I get it. 1016 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,400 But I think, I think there is something to be said about if 1017 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:17,720 you have too little padding in the tongue, tons of padding in 1018 00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:18,960 the heel, it can push you forward. 1019 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,880 I'll just talk about my last one really quick, but before I do 1020 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:26,680 that. Oh, so wait, so that so that 1021 00:50:26,680 --> 00:50:29,200 shoes not perfect right? So I have a right to complain 1022 00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:30,000 about. That oh, I was about to 1023 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,600 compliment this shoe. Let's hear it listening. 1024 00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:39,280 This is the on cloud boom Max we we tease Max, he hates the shoe 1025 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,000 and the rest of us really had a nice time. 1026 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,200 I had such high hopes. That was like my my most 1027 00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,400 anticipated shoe of 2025 and. It's it's so expensive. 1028 00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:51,920 Yes, it was. But what they do is, Matt, what 1029 00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,320 you were talking about is they do this strategic padding on the 1030 00:50:54,320 --> 00:50:56,120 tongue. So it's a really thin tongue, 1031 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,920 but it's got padding on the in and the outside just from like 1032 00:50:59,920 --> 00:51:01,680 the top down, about halfway down. 1033 00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,080 And I think that type of padding functions really well 'cause it 1034 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:08,760 takes and disperses the pressure from the tongue off of those 1035 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,800 tendons in the arteries and the even the the nerve that spans 1036 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,160 down. So they that that tongue does a 1037 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,920 good job. It's also gusseted for you, 1038 00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:16,960 Matt. It's like they made this shoe 1039 00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,040 for you. On uppers or just top general? 1040 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,280 Just the yeah, I will. David's totally right on. 1041 00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,120 I don't there is not many on uppers that I haven't gotten 1042 00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,160 along with. Yeah, well. 1043 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,080 They're they're I agree. I agree. 1044 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,680 There's one that I hated. And also shout out on cloud 1045 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,520 runner three. That might be the most cozy 1046 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:38,840 upper of the year so far. It's. 1047 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:40,520 Very. All right, Maybe I'll take it 1048 00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:41,800 out of the. Box they've got a lot of they 1049 00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:43,760 they're fit overall is really good. 1050 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,240 I'm going to push on one part of ONS upper construction. 1051 00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:53,720 That is my other like issue that I've run into on isn't the I, I, 1052 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,760 they're not the worst offender of this, but it does happen and 1053 00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:04,120 it's when there is just not enough security within the 1054 00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:07,400 midfoot area or not enough reinforcement. 1055 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,960 So I think that some shoes are being built wider to accommodate 1056 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,760 foot sizes, but then they keep that width really big in the 1057 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,040 midfoot and then it just feels sloppy. 1058 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:22,240 And I think that a lot of my heel slippage issues often come 1059 00:52:22,240 --> 00:52:25,120 from midfoot security challenges. 1060 00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,480 And that could be because it's actually too much material in 1061 00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:31,440 the midfoot. And like in this, I brought this 1062 00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:35,760 shoe out because when I stand in it, the the upper like folds out 1063 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:40,000 and there's like a big fold on the inside of the midfoot. 1064 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:42,800 So it could just be too much material. 1065 00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:45,560 The other thing is they may not have enough reinforcement. 1066 00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:48,400 So this shoe isn't a huge offender because it has a 1067 00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:52,280 reinforcement strip here along the midfoot as well as even just 1068 00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,480 this lettering provides some structure to the midfoot in that 1069 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:59,200 area. But I think that's been an issue 1070 00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:03,280 for me when a midfoot, it is too wide and then I'm just slip 1071 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:05,520 sliding around. If I'm on anywhere where I have 1072 00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:08,400 to turn, I just feel like it's not holding me where I want to. 1073 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:13,320 So that one's a pretty, I think obvious one, but also an easy 1074 00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,240 one to correct. You just cinch it up a little 1075 00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:18,560 bit and or put in some overlays because I think back to like 1076 00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:25,240 when I ran my first marathon in 2017, I think it was, and I was 1077 00:53:25,240 --> 00:53:28,160 trying out my first shoes and it was the New Balance 1080 at the 1078 00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,760 time, version 6, I think it was at and it had basically an 1079 00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,000 entire plastic midfoot. And then I think back a few 1080 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,040 years that was replicated in almost the Ride 18. 1081 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:43,000 I think it was that 17/17. It had like a whole plastic 1082 00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:44,880 portion. And so that was overkill on the 1083 00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,440 other end where it was like too stiff of the upper and the 1084 00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,720 midfoot to create that security. I think that there's a happy 1085 00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:52,760 medium. I think Topo does a really nice 1086 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:56,800 job with their midfoot overall, unless you don't get along with 1087 00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,680 the ortho light in Seoul because that that plays into the upper 1088 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:02,320 there. So that's my last one. 1089 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:04,880 David, do you have more or was that? 1090 00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:06,400 Yeah, done with you three. Yeah, I'm. 1091 00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:08,360 Only done 2 fam I got one more that's. 1092 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,720 What I thought because you each have one more I think. 1093 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,840 Yeah, we both have one more. Actually, I think Client and I 1094 00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,640 might have something very similar because he hasn't talked 1095 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,800 about this yet and I know for a fact he's sensitive to it. 1096 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:27,800 Yeah, but mine's kind of a combination of two things. 1097 00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:32,040 But it's when not necessarily the heel collar itself, but like 1098 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:34,760 where the seam is on the posterior side, where the upper 1099 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:37,720 comes together in that, where the Achilles grave is, where 1100 00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:41,480 that comes up a little too high and it comes anterior, anterior 1101 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,200 being forward a little. Bit. 1102 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:50,360 Much and. I almost feel like I. 1103 00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,640 Shouldn't say anything and just let him go off. 1104 00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,400 Let's do. It no go, David. 1105 00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:57,880 No, no, no, no, no. I will I will. 1106 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,840 I'll ride your I'll, I'll. I'll be your wingman and ride 1107 00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:02,560 your. Ride the. 1108 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,320 No way on earth I can say this and not be as fired up as Matt. 1109 00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,640 For me it. Causes me intense pain. 1110 00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:16,080 Lily ruined. I took a buzz saw on his shoe 1111 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:17,840 because of it. Go. 1112 00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:18,480 Go for it. Go. 1113 00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:19,280 Yeah. Please, Matt. 1114 00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:21,200 No, please. No, no, I'm not. 1115 00:55:21,240 --> 00:55:22,000 I'm sorry. I interrupt. 1116 00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:23,360 No, Matt, do it. We need to. 1117 00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,320 We need this. I want to hear the second part 1118 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,680 'cause my part is is also going to be a 2 parter with that 1119 00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,080 combined with something else. So, David, go. 1120 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:33,080 Finish, please. I thought I was gaslighting you 1121 00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:34,840 into gold. No. 1122 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,840 OK. You'll get your gold, don't 1123 00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:38,880 worry. But one of the most recent 1124 00:55:38,880 --> 00:55:41,400 examples of this was the Saucony and Dorfin Pro 5. 1125 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:46,080 And it's not necessarily where my heel sits in this shoe. 1126 00:55:46,080 --> 00:55:50,680 That part's fine. It's it goes really high up and 1127 00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:53,440 you can kind of see how it has this like little curve where it 1128 00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:57,240 starts going forward. And I just get this friction, 1129 00:55:57,240 --> 00:55:59,400 like kind of mid Achilles tendon. 1130 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,840 And it just creates a lot of rubbing and pressure to the 1131 00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,160 backside. And then sometimes too, when I'm 1132 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,680 running, like when I flex my ankle forward, I can feel the 1133 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:12,160 very top of this dig into the Achilles a little bit as well. 1134 00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:16,480 And that's just a example that's happened recently. 1135 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,280 It has happened with other shoes before. 1136 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,240 Off the top of my head, I'm blanking on what they are. 1137 00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:24,760 But every once in a while it happens where that seem it just 1138 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,800 runs a little too high and it starts digging into things. 1139 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:32,840 And thankfully I'm usually not that sensitive to it. 1140 00:56:32,840 --> 00:56:35,800 Like it usually creates a little bit of rubbing and like I'm 1141 00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:37,320 fine. But like that one did 'cause 1142 00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:42,560 blisters for me, like one example, I see the Neo Vista 2 1143 00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:46,080 back there, that's one example where it goes up pretty high, 1144 00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:49,440 but it's not as problematic because it actually has some 1145 00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:52,320 space in the back and it's not like pushing forward as much. 1146 00:56:52,720 --> 00:56:56,120 So if you can go high, yeah. So it's more that combination 1147 00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,320 rigid high and going forward that kind of create that bad 1148 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:02,400 combination for. Me, that's a really good one. 1149 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,040 Yeah, what did? Oh my God. 1150 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:14,920 This is how you solve that somewhat actually some of. 1151 00:57:15,240 --> 00:57:17,360 The Matt brought out literally Matt, what is that? 1152 00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:20,800 Tell people who are listening to what you just brought out. 6 1153 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:27,480 inch small cordless chainsaw. It still has pieces of the A6 GT 1154 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:32,160 2014 on it. So you actually use it on your 1155 00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:33,840 shoes, is what you're saying? Yeah. 1156 00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:37,640 So yeah, your turn to go, man. There's no battery to sorry for 1157 00:57:37,640 --> 00:57:39,280 to put the battery in anyway. Yes, I. 1158 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,680 Thought he was just turn it on on air then he's. 1159 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,920 Like I was going to it, then the battery's not in. 1160 00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:45,800 There, that's probably a good thing. 1161 00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:47,360 That's probably. Good. 1162 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,480 Well, you give your perspective on this, Matt, and then we'll 1163 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:51,080 wrap things. Up. 1164 00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,640 I'm 100% with David on this that like heel design is really 1165 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:59,240 important in respecting what the tissues back there at. 1166 00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:06,320 Like the Achilles tendon is part of the most important propulsive 1167 00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,560 and supportive muscle during the stance phase of running gait. 1168 00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:12,240 It is the propulsive running gait muscle. 1169 00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,200 Okay, yes, when you run really fast, your hip extensors tend to 1170 00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,520 join in quite a bit more. But for the majority of people, 1171 00:58:18,520 --> 00:58:22,160 calf is really important. As you age, this is we lose calf 1172 00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,840 function and Achilles tendon function more than anything 1173 00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:25,920 else. And there's some emerging 1174 00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,800 evidence that, hey, you want to do well, you got to really 1175 00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:31,280 hammer this thing in. And so I say this is someone 1176 00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,240 with Achilles tendonopathy and an active irritated one right 1177 00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:36,760 now. And David hit this one and a 1178 00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:38,760 haglund for me, which we'll talk about in a second. 1179 00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:44,240 But yeah, I I do not understand why you would angle your heel 1180 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,480 design, especially like heel counter in the top here, into 1181 00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:51,040 the Achilles tendon. We know that excessive pressure 1182 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,760 on tendons is a risk factor for tendonopathy. 1183 00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:56,720 We have evidence that a risk factor for Achilles heenopathy 1184 00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,000 is wearing and compression sucks. 1185 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,080 Actually, that is a risk because tendons like to be able to move 1186 00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,920 and have flexibility movement. So to having something like the 1187 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,280 G 2014, unfortunately, I can't even run in the Reebok. 1188 00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,840 The I think it's Zig Tech. Yeah, the tread. 1189 00:59:14,840 --> 00:59:17,200 I can't run it. I was going to bring that up. 1190 00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:19,720 I haven't run it yet, but I could feel it walking around a 1191 00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:21,080 little bit. You could. 1192 00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:25,200 I can't even I, yeah, after walking a little over a quarter 1193 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:27,240 mile in that shoe, my Achilles just flared up for like a few 1194 00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,480 minutes, but it was like, Nope, I I'm either going to have to 1195 00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:31,960 cut this to get to help out or I'm going to have to move on 1196 00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:35,280 because. So having something that jams 1197 00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:38,640 into your Achilles tendon every single time you plantar flex, 1198 00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,960 which is one of the more important motions in running if 1199 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:46,160 you want to move forwards, just as a very, very poor design, 1200 00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:48,560 like have it go straight up. There's much better ways to 1201 00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,800 secure the heel and keep things from slipping. 1202 00:59:51,000 --> 00:59:53,680 This is not a not a good one. That's what I was going to, 1203 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:55,280 luckily. I was going to say that really 1204 00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,680 quick. I think the reason why companies 1205 00:59:58,680 --> 01:00:02,280 do that is they're like, oh, we need to grab the because your 1206 01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,040 heel bone is rounded like that. So like we need to grab the heel 1207 01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,120 bone to keep the heel secure. It's just poor, it's poor 1208 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,720 execution of that idea. So keep going. 1209 01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:13,320 Sorry. I think there's better ways to 1210 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:15,800 do that and you also have to be really care because again, 1211 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:18,160 that's just going to jam into your poor Achilles tendon every 1212 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:19,560 time. The other thing I want to 1213 01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:24,000 comment is on pore heel counter and heel collar padding design, 1214 01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:27,520 which also goes into this because when you pad only the 1215 01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,760 top of the heel quite a bit, it does the same thing where it's 1216 01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:34,360 just jamming into the Achilles tendon or Achilles tendon 1217 01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,160 insertion. So every time you plantar flex, 1218 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,120 it's just like pushing into that over and over and over again. 1219 01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,320 It's getting to the point where like I almost can't handle 1220 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,680 running in those shoes at all. Even my my tendon's doing a lot 1221 01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:46,440 better. But even now with it fun like 1222 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:50,800 handling a lot more, it's still so irritating and painful. 1223 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,640 It's straight up painful. And yeah, it's just, it's it 1224 01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,480 that also when you do that design where you've got a super 1225 01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,560 stiff counter and only the top parts padded, not only does the 1226 01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,920 top part jammed your Achilles, your poor heel is sitting right 1227 01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:06,760 back against this hard counter. If you have something like me 1228 01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:08,760 where you got a Hagglund deformity and you have 1229 01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:11,360 sensitivity there, it sucks. You can't wear the shoe. 1230 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,640 So it's you got like a double whammy of jamming into Achilles 1231 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:16,840 tendon and irritating the Haglund deformity. 1232 01:01:16,840 --> 01:01:19,440 So it's like, this is not great. And those are really common. 1233 01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:22,560 I'm not a unique person. Achilles tendinopathy is like 1234 01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,840 one of the third, I think, most common running injuries #1 for 1235 01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:28,800 masters runners and then have them for me. 1236 01:01:28,800 --> 01:01:33,840 These are super common. So yeah, I think I get where 1237 01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:35,440 companies are going. They're trying something going. 1238 01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:37,520 We want to lock the heel down. Cool. 1239 01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,680 But don't forget about basic human anatomy and bio mechanics 1240 01:01:41,680 --> 01:01:45,280 and how things function in motion and that like what 1241 01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:48,000 optimal tissue health looks like when it's in motion. 1242 01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,760 And I, I, I understand where people are going, but you also 1243 01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,480 have to pair that. And so I hope maybe I don't know 1244 01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,560 if people listen to us, but if any of the developers do, like 1245 01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:00,120 it's something I just want you all to think about because this 1246 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:02,520 can be something that can make a great things for people. 1247 01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,440 It's also things that I have had patients come in for and I'm 1248 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,400 like, you can't wear that shoe. You need to get something else. 1249 01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:11,600 Here's why this is maybe contributing to this among some 1250 01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,160 other factors, right? This isn't the only thing, but 1251 01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,080 you need to try something that doesn't have this component. 1252 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:18,000 They come back the next time. They're like, I have no pain 1253 01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:23,080 like, so I'm not saying the running shoe is all of it, but 1254 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,280 I'm saying this can definitely clinically, again, we don't have 1255 01:02:26,280 --> 01:02:28,400 a lot of evidence on some of the stuff, but clinically it can 1256 01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,600 really contribute and bother people, so. 1257 01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:33,600 Yep, great. Well, this is fun. 1258 01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,120 Always fun to get to spend the evening chatting with y'all and 1259 01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:41,080 good to see Matt get fired up a little bit. 1260 01:02:41,080 --> 01:02:43,640 That's always that always means we talked about something fun. 1261 01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:44,600 He's playing the. Battery. 1262 01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:51,920 Before Matt gets the battery in, that's his mini chainsaw to saw 1263 01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:56,800 off bad heel counters. With also to cut up a Christmas 1264 01:02:56,800 --> 01:02:57,560 treatment. Perfect. 1265 01:02:57,560 --> 01:02:58,600 That too. With. 1266 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:01,840 And shrimp trees. With all of that, thank you all 1267 01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:04,240 for joining us for the Docs Running podcast. 1268 01:03:04,480 --> 01:03:07,840 We had a fun time around the Round Table and we hope that you 1269 01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:10,720 all got something out of this, even if it's the trick of 1270 01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:13,200 getting one of those chainsaws to be able to cut your shoes to 1271 01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:14,760 your liking. Take care, everybody.