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Hey everyone and welcome to the 
Doctors are Running podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors, 
physical therapy, talk about the

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art and the science of the 
things that we put on our feet. 

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Today I have the pleasure of 
talking with Doctor Sloss and 

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you know, we were going to talk 
about something completely 

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different and we started a 
conversation off air and we're 

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going to continue it onwards 
because I think this is going to

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be really interesting. 
So our conversation today is 

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going to be about super shoes. 
I know we talked about this a 

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lot, but it's going to go a 
little more in depth and build 

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off of one of the things we 
talked about a couple weeks ago 

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being do you get the same 
training stimulus in super shoes

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and how is that affecting 
athletes? 

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How is that affecting us? 
So we're going to talk about how

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that might be affecting elites, 
how that might be affecting 

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recreational runners, what that 
might mean, how to think about 

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that from a training stimulus. 
Just 'cause this is the stuff we

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geek out on and we want to what 
we wanted to see, what you think

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as well, what we should also 
mention. 

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Oh, should I tell them? 
Or should I wait till the end to

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tell people so they have to 
listen to the end to find out 

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the special secret? 
Oh, special secret. 

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Special secret. 
Let's do like We'll find a 

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convenient point in the middle. 
Yeah, we'll find a few, so stick

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around. 
If you can handle us talking for

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that long it you'll find that 
we'll make it worth your time. 

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So Doctor Sauce, where are you 
in your training right now? 

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What? 
What sparked the initial part of

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this conversation? 
Our subjective by the way that 

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we want you to talk about is how
have you felt with the with 

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training shoes coming into your 
rotation, if they are, how has 

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that impacted your training in 
terms of what if you be able to 

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do with it, how do you feel like
it's perfecting your recovery? 

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Very open-ended question, but 
how does it affect your 

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training? 
So Doctor Selas, what started 

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this conversation? 
How do we get here? 

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Yeah. 
So essentially I wanted to see, 

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you know, with advancements in 
footwear, what is the impact on 

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your body over the, you know, 
plethora of distances that you 

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can race and how does that fit 
in a training cycle, How does 

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that fit in recovery, etcetera, 
etcetera. 

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And the reason why this all came
about was I'm in the middle of 

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the track season, so I'm going 
to be running a 5K here coming 

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up this weekend and I'm still 
trying to figure out myself if I

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want to run in Flats or spikes. 
And I'm not running World 

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Athletic standard like World 
Championships. 

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I don't either. 
You're faster than. 

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Me. 
I don't even hear. 

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Yeah. 
I'm super excited to see what 

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David could do because he's the 
fastest of the group, but I'm 

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sending all my all my fast 
thoughts to you this season. 

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But yeah, thank you. 
Yeah. 

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But like, I don't really care 
about the 25mm thing that went 

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into effect what a couple of 
years ago. 

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Like And truth be told, this is 
actually a very interesting 

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question in and of itself. 
The because remember, before 

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people would race in either 
spikes and some people did opt 

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to run in flats. 
Were those flats over 25? 

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They might have been, I don't 
know. 

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Yeah, probably like the Lunar. 
Racer or something like that. 

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That was probably over 25 and 
people. 

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Ran. 
That kite? 

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Yeah, they ran in 10K's on that,
you know, or 5K's. 

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So that would technically be an 
illegal shoe now. 

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Like so. 
Anyways, that's completely 

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besides the point. 
But no, I was trying to figure 

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out whether or not running 
economy No, it's not you. 

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You got that quick per per a 
previous site, it said that no 

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longer exists. 
Actually, the Nike Lunar Racer 

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was 24 millimeters in the heel, 
17 in the four foot for a 7mm 

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drop. 
I don't know if that includes 

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the insole or not, but Dang, 
that felt so much, you know? 

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What I was going to say about? 
Those shoes that feel like swear

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was higher Stack guy, probably 
lower than we, really. 

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Realized and it's probably a 
product of the times because we 

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were also running in these like 
super minimal track spikes that 

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who knows what the millimeter 
stack on that was. 

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Dude, I did like 1/2 marathon. 
I did several half marathons in 

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the original Takumi Suns, which 
like barely had anything there. 

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Those would be like a mile 5K 
shoe. 

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Not even now, and so. 
That just shows you how far 

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we've come right like that. 
To us that answers that question

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was very technically track 
legal. 

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Yeah, I guess it was technically
track legal, so completely off 

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the point. 
But yeah, trying to figure out, 

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you know, like with running 
economy benefits, does that 

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actually matter in a 5K, right. 
When you look at or below. 

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Yeah. 
Like if you run a, you go and 

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look at metabolic economy, 
running economy, the paces that 

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you're doing at in theory are 
going to be somewhere around 

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your marathon pace. 
And so let's say you are a super

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responder and you respond six, 
7% to a given shoe that's at 

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your marathon pace, right? 
Like things can completely 

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change when the pace goes faster
than that. 

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And plus, in a controlled 
environment, you're not running 

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in a straight line, you're doing
constant left turns. 

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And so does that change when 
you're running in a real life 

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situation trying to compete and 
go fast, you know, at a 5K10K 

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distance? 
And I don't know if I fully know

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the answer to that. 
And that's kind of what sparked 

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this as far as like beneficial 
reactions. 

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And like you could always make 
the argument like, Oh well, if 

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you train your calves up, you'll
just be fine in spikes, which is

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a fair argument. 
But at the same time, it's like,

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what's truly the better option? 
And like, I don't actually know.

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Right. 
Because what with super shoes, 

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the benefits that we're talking 
about is the Max stock height of

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a special foam and emphasis on 
the special foam because not 

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everybody has seemed to figure 
that out. 

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Although most companies have the
special foam, the plate to to 

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stabilize, that foam and direct 
forces the geometry to make 

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things efficient because the 
foam is so tall and then 

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obviously being on the lighter 
side now trap. 

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I don't think there's a single 
super shoe on the market anyway 

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that is like that a true super 
shoe. 

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Not these like lower stack. 
You know shoes that don't Max 

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out the everything and maximize 
the foams. 

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There's some more like 5K10K 
flats out there but you know 

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they're not nearly as light 
still as all the track spikes. 

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The track spikes are still in 
that like low 5 oz like 4 oz 

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range. 
Maybe a teeny bit above 6 for 

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one of them that. 
Well you have like the Saucony 

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like terminal Vt is like. 
Yeah, and yeah, you're totally 

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you're. 
Totally right. 

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That is like feather light. 
Right. 

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So you have to remember that 
track spikes now have gotten a 

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little bit higher stuff. 
So they've got the push cushion,

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it takes the edge off. 
They have the stiffening agent 

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still, which used to be more P 
backs plates and now we're 

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starting to see more carbon. 
But the biggest benefit to them 

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is that weight. 
And we know from evidence that 

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as you go down and weight it, 
things are more economical to a 

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certain point, right. 
If you're running barefoot, it's

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not economical, right? 
You have to have, you have to 

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have some cushioning there. 
But the question comes up is 

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when you go over these shorter 
distances, what's really 

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beneficial having more 
cushioning and higher stack or 

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having that kind of more lower 
stack and that super lightweight

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plus the grip and that's not 
something we have mentioned The 

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traction podcast is the traction
from the spikes and the spikes 

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set up, which I'm sure someone 
studied that I don't know next 

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to anything about. 
A lie. 

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You go kick it on the track 
spike, you're going to feel a 

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million times better than any 
super shoe on your foot. 

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That's that could be like the 
bottom of the bottom track spike

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like just your traction like and
your ability to get onto the 

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track and really grip and pull 
like that, That's hard to beat 

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that, you know? 
And I don't know how that 

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affects. 
If anybody has experience with 

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that, please comment below. 
I'm really curious. 

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The only thing I know comes from
my clinical experience was one 

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of the I forget what track spike
it was. 

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I think it was an old one that 
somebody was used like one of 

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the Air Kennedys or something 
like, but it was one of the ones

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that was it's a it's a distance 
spike that was missing a spike 

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on near the fifth Met. 
Yeah. 

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When you turn there was nothing 
stabilized. 

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And I had two masters runners 
that came to you when I was at 

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Casa Colina and they were both 
having peronial issues because 

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when they try to pivot off 
there, there was nothing to 

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grip. 
So they ended up having to 

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really pronate and that put the 
Peroneus peroneum muscles kind 

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of in a better position to work 
and they were overworking that, 

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which was exacerbated by some 
calf weakness. 

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So that just kind of forced 
where they were going. 

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So I know you need to have an 
even spike distribution across 

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the foot. 
I don't know anything else about

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that in terms of how that 
affects economy other than 

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personal testimonial like you 
said where it's like it just 

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feels better and you mentioned 
that because you're the one. 

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I'm not doing Trek split stuff 
right now, but spikes like feel 

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so much better for pace changes.
Totally. 

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Existences. 
And even even in a 5K or 10K, 

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like if you've run in a 
competitive 5K10K field, I know 

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you have, but more for the 
viewers. 

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Like, yeah, Like there's a. 
Lot of time. 

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Yeah, but there's a lot of 
jostling, right? 

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Like there's a there's a lot of 
like, kind of stop go, like 

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people are accidentally making 
contact with each other. 

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Heaven forbid no one gets 
actually spiked. 

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But like. 
Very rare to have a consistent 

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pace like and it's not just that
it's people are aggressive, 

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they're like like. 
And like someone want to move 

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and then move, Yeah, And then 
you got to cover it, right? 

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And like just anecdotally, like 
even in workouts when I have 

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been in Spikes versus when I 
have not been in Spikes, if 

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someone makes some kind of a 
move where like you negative 

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split 2-3 seconds on a lap, like
that's a very noticeable change 

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over 400 meters. 
And like that being able to 

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cover that moving spikes is so 
much easier than it is in flats.

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Like that feels like in these 
super shoes, which I have one on

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the track before. 
Like it feels almost clunky at 

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first. 
Like it almost is like you kind 

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of have to figure that change in
pace out and then once you're 

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up, you're OK. 
But like that little bit can 

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actually impact how a race goes 
with how fast some of these 

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moves are made. 
Like you almost have to be like 

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really like vigilant. 
I mean, we're talking if you're 

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trying to like win races and be 
in it and be competitive. 

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Obviously if you're running 
consistent splits, you know in a

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perfect world that probably 
wouldn't matter as much. 

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But as far as like being in 
context to the race in front of 

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you like that can very easily 
happen. 

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Right. 
I I definitely agree. 

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I think I I'm curious because 
spikes, right, you've got the 

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spikes, they're much lighter, 
it's much easier to turn over. 

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There's also not as much foam. 
Whereas with the Super shoes and

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the reason I bring this up is 
I'm getting miles on the SC 

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Elite 4 right now which is a a 
great shoe to do long runs in 

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like up tempo runs a marathon 
pace. 

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That thing doesn't do anything 
fast enough for me like I cannot

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I I have trouble pushing that 
shoe and being able to maintain 

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that faster speed and changing 
paces Paces. 

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I'm wondering if that's because 
with so much more foam, there's 

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more compression, right? 
And that compression takes time,

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right? 
There's it takes time to 

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compress and to bounce back, 
which is going to do great over 

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hat, even 10K10K hat. 
You're in a real. 

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Marathon 8 paces. 
Go to sleep, just run your 

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splits right? 
But when it comes to like 5 K 

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1500, stuff like that, for 
people that are running at the 

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paces, that you are like that 
really fast up, that makes 

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sense. 
For the rest of us, like myself,

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for a 5K, it may not, you know, 
like Rd. stuff like that. 

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It may just make more sense to 
have a super shoe. 

226
00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,400
But when you're starting to go 
with those faster paces and how 

227
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,120
the shoe responds, how quickly 
the foam responds, how quickly 

228
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,600
responds makes more sense to me.
That, you know, maybe these 

229
00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:15,760
super foams in this economy 
stuff doesn't make as much of an

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00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:17,920
effect over the shorter 
distances. 

231
00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,160
And you know that gives more 
flexibility to what foams you 

232
00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:22,600
can use, how you set that stuff 
up. 

233
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,880
So there's other factors that 
are outside of my expertise in 

234
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,880
terms of how you design track 
spikes and things like that 

235
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,480
because I just don't have enough
experience do it like you know, 

236
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,880
using them for several years. 
I've got a couple that I've been

237
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:38,000
able to review from like a fit 
performance standpoint, but I 

238
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,320
have my own limitations on that.
But yeah, I totally get we 

239
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:42,200
going. 
Yeah. 

240
00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,120
And then like Devil's Advocate 
to myself, I see guys like Dylan

241
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,640
Jacobs shout out Dylan Jacobs 
Like running in a Vapor Fly on 

242
00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,680
the track and having zero issues
removed and kicking and doing 

243
00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:54,480
things. 
And then like some of the BYU 

244
00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,400
boys before they made the Stack 
Kite rule, like they were also 

245
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,680
doing the same thing and ripping
like Clayton Young was one of 

246
00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,040
them. 
Like he was there before the 

247
00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,880
rule. 
And it's like, yeah, I don't 

248
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,280
know. 
It's just it's interesting 

249
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:10,800
because I know when I'm kicking,
I feel better in spikes and 

250
00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:13,160
that's a, that's a fairpoint 
too, The word kicking, right, 

251
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:18,280
like we're talking the last 800 
meters maybe probably less even 

252
00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:19,600
like you're kind of ramping it 
up. 

253
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:22,800
But true kicking is probably 
going to be somewhere between 

254
00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:25,880
one and 400 meters depending on 
where you're going, like truly 

255
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:29,400
going after it. 
And that's such a short period 

256
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:31,760
of your race. 
That's 12 1/2 laps, that's one 

257
00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:35,200
lap or less where you're 
actually at that point. 

258
00:12:35,560 --> 00:12:37,680
And so that's another thing 
where it's like, does it 

259
00:12:37,680 --> 00:12:38,720
actually matter? 
I don't. 

260
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,880
I don't know if it does, and 
that's a that's a question I'm 

261
00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:46,720
chewing on myself. 
I will say in this I'm bringing 

262
00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,440
the I need to give you credit 
for this because it's something 

263
00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,360
you talked about that to be 
devil's advocate on this. 

264
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,680
The the the opposite way to 
think about this is he talked 

265
00:12:54,680 --> 00:12:55,880
about comfort. 
What's going to be most 

266
00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:57,680
comfortable, what's going to 
keep you healthy and actually 

267
00:12:57,680 --> 00:12:59,680
get you through the race. 
What can you actually control 

268
00:12:59,680 --> 00:13:01,760
throughout the race. 
So this is my advocate. 

269
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:04,840
So someone like yourself that's 
been doing stuff in track spikes

270
00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,080
I think for the last couple 
weeks, correct. 

271
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,440
Yeah. 
Yeah, like, yeah, 4:00-ish weeks

272
00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,440
now, but not full workouts 
though. 

273
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,120
We're talking maybe second-half 
of the workout. 

274
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:17,680
You know you switch into them so
that way I can walk the next 

275
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:19,880
day. 
Got you know, so this does apply

276
00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,400
to you because you said you're 
not sure can you handle track 

277
00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:25,880
spikes for a 5K. 
So for the rest of us, 

278
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,240
especially those of us as we're 
starting to get a little bit 

279
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,680
older and you know David and I 
are still very young, but as you

280
00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:35,560
start getting into your mid late
30s, forties, 50s, sixties, 70s 

281
00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:38,760
plus, you got to ask yourself 
what tool is actually going to 

282
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,280
get you through the race. 
So we, we often talk about this 

283
00:13:41,560 --> 00:13:44,200
going the marathon distance. 
People like I want the fastest 

284
00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:45,760
super shoot. 
It's like, yeah, the the 

285
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:47,800
fastest. 
You may not get you through the 

286
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,960
end of the race. 
I know 5K is not that long, but 

287
00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,840
when you're talking about some 
of these super aggressive track 

288
00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:56,280
spikes that are low if not zero 
drop, if not negative drop, 

289
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,800
sometimes you got to ask 
yourself can your calves handle 

290
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,600
that? 
So from an injury prevention and

291
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,200
a finishing the race standpoint,
that's something else to think 

292
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,640
about. 
Like myself, I would need 

293
00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,720
several months to prep my body 
even though I run in a lot of 

294
00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,040
ultra and things like that. 
I I would need several months to

295
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,640
prepare if I was going to do a 
full 5K in track spikes just 

296
00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:20,160
because yes, performance is one 
thing, but like you said, I want

297
00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,080
to be able to run and race the 
next week or so. 

298
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,680
I don't want to get injured and 
that's something, you know, I'm 

299
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,320
not trying to scare people, but 
it's a thing is what where is 

300
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:30,440
your limit to? 
And that goes in the opposite 

301
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,840
with super shoes, like I said, 
it's like, yes, it's the Super 

302
00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,720
fast feeling like Max SAC at 
shoe, but can you control that 

303
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,160
for a marathon distance? 
Sometimes the fastest shoe may 

304
00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,880
not be the one that helps you 
achieve the highest performance 

305
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,360
because your own body is the 
other thing that you need to 

306
00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,320
consider, and that's individual.
I think the answer is I just get

307
00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:54,640
a Adidas Evo one, get a 5 oz 
super shoe and there you go. 

308
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:55,880
It's the same weight as the 
track spike. 

309
00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:56,720
You're fine. 
Got it. 

310
00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,160
So just, Everett, so that the 
Evo One is the answer for both 

311
00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:02,320
the track and Marathon. 
Just forget it. 

312
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:07,720
Yeah, the $500 shoot, that's not
drilling over and man, if it. 

313
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:10,320
If it lasts 1 marathon, that's 
how many 5K's. 

314
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:12,880
That's fair or 10K? 
Yeah, that should be should be 

315
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,440
more right? 
Right. 22 it like what? 

316
00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:20,760
How many 10K's is that like? 
410 K's. 410 K's and that. 

317
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,880
So eight like 6 to 85K's or so. 
I'll be honest with the viewers,

318
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,760
they haven't. 
We haven't gotten our hands on 

319
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:27,920
that. 
Yeah, I said that. 

320
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,280
So we haven't, we haven't tried 
it, so I'm a little bit annoyed,

321
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,120
but so I keep looking at eBay 
going, oh, should I do this? 

322
00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,680
And the whole team's like, 
don't, don't do it, don't, don't

323
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:37,600
do that. 
It's not worth it. 

324
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,800
It'll it'll come around 
eventually. 

325
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,600
Eventually. 
We could probably get it at not 

326
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:42,840
500. 
Right. 

327
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,320
Or just like like 2 years from 
now, buy it on sale and review 

328
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:48,560
it super late. 
But so the other the other 

329
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:52,640
conversation we were having 
which really kind of stimulus 

330
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,240
simulated us to go, you know 
what, we should do this as the 

331
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,760
main topic for the podcast is 
how these super shoes are 

332
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,840
affecting our training. 
Do you want to share the well? 

333
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,920
Should we be careful of who? 
Yeah, yeah. 

334
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:06,960
No names, no names. 
Not the. 

335
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:08,520
Names. 
Yeah, yeah, share the story. 

336
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:10,640
And honestly? 
It's not even, it's not even 

337
00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,240
names. 
It's it's really it's a it's 

338
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,360
something that I'm noticing 
across a larger scale across the

339
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:22,200
elite and sub elite audience and
that's probably anyone that's 

340
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,840
running from the range of two O 
9 to I don't know, let's say 

341
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:31,640
216. 
And there's a lot of people. 

342
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,480
These shoes have been out long 
enough now but recent enough to 

343
00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,320
where you have a large enough 
population of people that have 

344
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,280
run marathons and half marathons
before these shoes came out and 

345
00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:44,480
after these shoes came out and 
are still at a competitive age 

346
00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:47,320
where you can't attribute it to 
age, you know, where it's all 

347
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:49,320
like, oh, well, they're 45, of 
course they're going to be 

348
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,520
running, you know, slower than 
they were when they were 28. 

349
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,840
You know, it's like, no, no, 
they're still in a very 

350
00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:59,480
competitive age in their life. 
And a lot of people are running 

351
00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,280
the same times. 
They're not getting that much 

352
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:06,280
better or worse, you know, and 
it's I I'm trying to figure that

353
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,119
out from a larger scale. 
And I when I think of it like 

354
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,680
from a training aspect 
standpoint and I think it's a 

355
00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:21,000
larger you know picture here, I 
almost think of going, I mean 

356
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:24,280
we're obviously very science 
oriented and we want to try and 

357
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,440
figure out the whys of things. 
But I think of it down to the 

358
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,680
root, you know, you just keep 
asking why, why, why why why? 

359
00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,320
And I and I go down the rabbit 
hole and I think a. 

360
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,680
PhD students. 
What? 

361
00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:38,400
I do. 
Yeah, yeah, and so just kidding,

362
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,120
Sorry. 
When you look at performances, 

363
00:17:40,120 --> 00:17:42,360
OK, so it's stagnant. 
Why is it stagnant? 

364
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,320
Well, what was the major shift? 
OK, so people got faster 

365
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,640
initially, All of a sudden in 
20, what, 16/20/17, everyone and

366
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,200
their mother started breaking 
220, you know, Yeah. 

367
00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:56,520
And then all of a sudden you 
give it two years and now 

368
00:17:56,520 --> 00:18:00,320
everyone plateaus, you know, and
some of them aren't running 

369
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,440
faster than what they were 
before. 

370
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,800
And I think to some degree it 
comes down to a physiologic 

371
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,360
adaptation standpoint. 
And this is again, a rabbit 

372
00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:10,760
hole. 
I'm talking out of my butt here,

373
00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:12,440
right? 
I don't have any data to 

374
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,600
actually back this. 
But if you disagree, please, 

375
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:19,080
please comment below or e-mail 
us 'cause this is just a 

376
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,080
conversation we are thinking out
loud. 

377
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:24,080
So please disagree with us, with
us if you want, because I'm I'm 

378
00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:26,160
with David on this, but we'll 
have a conversation. 

379
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,360
We'll see how this goes. 
Yeah, but I but I think about 

380
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:31,120
this right and I think about, 
OK, so why is it plateauing? 

381
00:18:31,120 --> 00:18:33,160
And let's look at some training 
principles here. 

382
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,400
And it's like, OK, so people are
putting super shoes on more and 

383
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,720
more and more and you wear them 
during your workout. 

384
00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,560
Great. 
You run a good workout. 

385
00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:47,320
You're, let's just say you're a 
good responder, you are 4 to 5% 

386
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,320
more economic in a given shoe 
and you feel good. 

387
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,320
You feel less beat up and you're
getting through your workouts, 

388
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,000
you're recovering and you, you 
feel good And you can keep that 

389
00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,480
training cycle going over and 
over and over again. 

390
00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:06,920
But when you look at some of the
larger scale things and they and

391
00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:08,680
they're when you look at the 
performances and they're not 

392
00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,080
getting better, it's like, so 
why aren't they getting better? 

393
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:13,760
They feel better. 
They're responding to the 

394
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,120
workouts and then they go 
through on race day and they're 

395
00:19:16,120 --> 00:19:21,280
running the same exact thing. 
And I think to some degree, if 

396
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:26,000
the training impulse from a 
physiologic work side of things 

397
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,240
is not, is now lower, you know, 
like you're not working as hard 

398
00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,800
to hit those same paces and 
you're getting really good at 

399
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,320
running those paces in that 
shoe. 

400
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,800
But then when push comes to 
shove, you're not able to 

401
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,160
actually shift that gear forward
anymore. 

402
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:46,520
And so I don't know if it's 
better to do like a a hybrid. 

403
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,960
Obviously you want to put these 
shoes on before you actually use

404
00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:50,560
them. 
Like, I'm not saying don't wear 

405
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:52,120
super shoes. 
But can I? 

406
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:53,520
Can I interject? 
Yeah, yeah, go for it. 

407
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,480
Because Justin Matthias who was 
nice set to send us some of his 

408
00:19:56,480 --> 00:19:58,320
research and again we we 
referenced him a couple weeks 

409
00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,640
so, but hope his master's 
dissertation events or thesis 

410
00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,920
went well. 
Justin. 

411
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,640
Keeping your mind, but his study
although it was a small subject 

412
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,960
don't but there's only two 
people that that continued. 

413
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,840
I think with the the, the flat 
it was a comparing training for 

414
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,520
eight weeks in flats versus 
super shoes and looking at 

415
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,760
economy differences and jump 
height and stuff like that. 

416
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,000
The two people that trained in 
flats had much larger overall 

417
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,080
economy improvements compared to
those that had were just in the 

418
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:28,280
Super shoes. 
They also had if I remember 

419
00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,960
correctly better maintenance of 
things like jump height and 

420
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,600
stuff like that which was done 
without a super shoe versus 

421
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,800
those that were that wasn't as 
good you can have as big economy

422
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,760
improvement. 
But at the very end when you 

423
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,080
compare the two of them, the 
ones that were running in super 

424
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,280
shoes did best in the Super 
shoes, they seem to adapt yet 

425
00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,000
yet like what am I trying to 
say? 

426
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,560
They seem to have adapted best 
to them because they that's now 

427
00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,640
this the the environment or the 
tool that they are best at 

428
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,000
using. 
Those who maybe didn't, maybe 

429
00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,800
didn't respond as well because 
there it's a new stimulus. 

430
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:04,320
So we're not saying don't use 
these, but just be aware that 

431
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,480
yeah, you if you're if you want 
to use them, you do have to get 

432
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,200
used to them because they are 
very different than traditional 

433
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:12,000
shoes or at least there used to 
be. 

434
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:13,800
I mean, things are starting to 
change a little bit, but. 

435
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,480
Yeah, things are getting closer 
and closer. 

436
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:16,920
The waters are getting more 
muddy. 

437
00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:18,720
Training shoe wise, yeah. 
Yeah. 

438
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,280
But I I just think there is 
something to be said for that 

439
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,720
because there's so many people. 
I mean, even down like our top 

440
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,080
Americans what, 207 high, 208 
low, that was the same, that was

441
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,360
the same case before super 
shoes, right? 

442
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:33,400
Like it's. 
We had like one or two people 

443
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,120
that could do that right? 
And like maybe there was a 2O 

444
00:21:36,360 --> 00:21:40,600
like, you know, Ryan Hall or 
whomever was on it could 12O6. 

445
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:44,360
A special talent's gonna go run 
sub two O 7 regardless, is how I

446
00:21:44,360 --> 00:21:47,120
feel, you know? 
And when you look. 

447
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,720
I mean, sure, the masses have 
all gotten faster, but the 

448
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:51,800
masses have also plateaued, 
right? 

449
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:57,160
Like, there's a crap ton of guys
that can run 2:10 to 2:15, but 

450
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,640
like, there's not that many guy.
Well, even 2:09, there's a lot 

451
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,880
of 209 guys. 
But like, why aren't we going 

452
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,800
any faster? 
You know? 

453
00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,560
And it's I I honestly don't 
know. 

454
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,040
And this is not a shot at any of
those guys. 

455
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,040
Like this is just the thinking 
process. 

456
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,280
We're just asking questions. 
I mean, I want Connor Manson, 

457
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,920
Clayton Young and you know CJ 
Albertson. 

458
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:19,360
Like, I want, I want all these 
guys to go and run really, 

459
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,000
really fast, you know? 
But just looking at it 

460
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:25,040
objectively from the outside, 
it's just so interesting to like

461
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,880
why are we staying at this area,
you know? 

462
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,240
And I don't know, I don't know 
what their training looks like. 

463
00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:32,800
I don't know how much they're in
these shoes. 

464
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,120
I again, this is all 
speculation. 

465
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,640
It. 
Is but. 

466
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,520
We're making some strong 
assumptions. 

467
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,000
We're making some very strong 
assumptions and I feel really 

468
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,600
bad for doing that, you know I. 
Don't This has had a great 

469
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,200
conversation. 
I just don't want to take 

470
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:46,640
anything away from any of the 
athletes. 

471
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,000
You know me, I'm. 
I'm always on the athlete's side

472
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,640
every single time. 
But at the same time, in order 

473
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:55,440
to get the most out of the 
athlete, I do kind of feel like 

474
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,800
if if the shift with the shoes 
did increase performance that 

475
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,600
much, and let's say you are that
much more economic in those 

476
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:06,480
shoes, maybe you do have to. 
If you are using those shoes and

477
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,360
training a lot, maybe you do 
have to shift that training 

478
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:12,760
impulse to be faster and harder 
so that you get that work 

479
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,400
impulse on your body and 
actually create physiologic 

480
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,840
adaptations. 
Because if you're comfortable 

481
00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:20,200
the whole time, at some point or
another you're going to have to 

482
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,520
push. 
You know, if you're racing 

483
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,720
Elliott Kipchoge and he's going 
to go run a 2O22O3 on you and 

484
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,760
you're trying to be relevant in 
that race and you've been 

485
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,200
practicing for two O 8, you 
know, it's like, well, good 

486
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,520
luck, right? 
Like that's that's so much 

487
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,320
faster over such a large amount 
of time, it doesn't sound like 

488
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,960
much. 
You know, the jump between 3 

489
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:46,560
flat and 2:50, you know, is 
something that a lot of people 

490
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,240
can make in, you know, a year or
two years time. 

491
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:55,040
The the shift from 2:10 to 2 
flat is a whole another story. 

492
00:23:55,040 --> 00:24:00,160
The margin of error is so small 
and the paces only get faster. 

493
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,080
And so, I don't know, I feel 
like from a adaptation 

494
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:07,400
standpoint, to really maximize 
what your body can do, you 

495
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:12,880
almost have to overtrain into 
something else and then switch 

496
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,120
into it. 
I but I don't know like. 

497
00:24:16,120 --> 00:24:18,120
You can I see. 
You go both ways. 

498
00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:21,280
I don't. 
So what I think I'm hearing is 

499
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,600
and we've talked about this 
before, super shoes don't make 

500
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,480
you faster. 
They allow you to hold paces for

501
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,600
longer periods of time. 
And I think that goes back to 

502
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:32,640
the track spike comment. 
We're like, yeah, these feel 

503
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,120
great holding these paces 
forever. 

504
00:24:35,120 --> 00:24:38,200
But if I really want to go like 
that track spike, right track 

505
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:40,960
spike training in those that 
that that you could really turn 

506
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:41,960
over. 
It's the lighter weight, the 

507
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,200
better traction, the Super 
you're not going to take a track

508
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,760
spike for a marathon. 
But so the the issues are 

509
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,480
designed to allow you to go 
longer and from what I'm 

510
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,000
hearing, I think they increase 
they we think they increase your

511
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,840
capacity, but if you increase 
your capacity this much but 

512
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:00,800
you're only still training here,
you're not going to get the same

513
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,880
benefit. 
These shoes are protected. 

514
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,640
That's a very, I need to be very
careful with how I say that 

515
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,920
word, but because it makes you 
more economical if you don't 

516
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,800
push to that maximal level, 
right. 

517
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,840
And you just push here, even if 
that's just as fast as you used 

518
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:19,320
to, you're not going to say get 
the same stimulus as what you 

519
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:21,560
used to get doing these in non 
super shoes. 

520
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,360
Your body still gets better in 
response to stimulus if you can 

521
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:27,400
recover from it. 
But it has to be enough that 

522
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,720
really challenge that, less 
stimulus, less adaptation. 

523
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,320
So that would make sense. 
And I I think we've talked about

524
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,600
this before that at some point 
you're going to adapt to the 

525
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,440
stimulus. 
That's why we were cautioning, 

526
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,720
going, yeah, these super shoes 
are great. 

527
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,000
I love them like I've done. 
Yeah, I they're. 

528
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,800
Awesome. 
I know. 

529
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,320
Is it in frame? 
Let me see. 

530
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,240
I've done more. 
Insane stuff in this in these 

531
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,960
shoes than I ever have. 
Like I just I I did a 10 mile 

532
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,640
run and it was I had a a 10 
minute uphill tempo workout with

533
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,360
the stroller this morning that 
almost killed me and I just went

534
00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,800
and did the same thing. 
Before this, I would have never 

535
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,520
been able to do that in 
traditional shoes. 

536
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,680
But part of the reason I can do 
that because I'm like, yeah, I 

537
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:10,720
still got energy from this 
morning. 

538
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,200
Let me go and Max this out. 
Is that very smart training 

539
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,720
wise? 
I don't know. 

540
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,880
I'm not an elite runner. 
I'm just doing dumb stuff and 

541
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,080
seeing what's happening. 
But that guy, I'm thinking, 

542
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,160
yeah, I'm a lab rat. 
I was like, that got me 

543
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,000
thinking. 
And this hopefully doesn't come 

544
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:24,600
off the wrong way. 
I'm not trying to be rude in 

545
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,360
saying we're not training hard 
enough, but if you give, you 

546
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,320
give yourself something that 
makes you a more economical, 

547
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,320
it's not free. 
It means if you want the 

548
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,800
stimulus to get faster, it 
actually means you have to push 

549
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,080
that much harder. 
And I was listening to an 

550
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,120
interview with Renata Canova. 
Hopefully I'm saying his his 

551
00:26:40,120 --> 00:26:42,520
name correctly, but he's a coach
of a lot of these, like super 

552
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,440
fast Kenyans and one. 
And somebody asked him like what

553
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,480
do you think's the biggest 
difference between now and 30 

554
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,440
years ago? 
And he goes, you know, there's a

555
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,600
lot of things that have changed.
Our understanding is training is

556
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,000
improved, nutrition is improved,
obviously gear is improved. 

557
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,920
But one of the things that is 
just that the clearest 

558
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,880
difference is these athletes are
pushing harder and with more 

559
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,120
intensity than they ever have. 
And part of that might be some 

560
00:27:06,120 --> 00:27:10,040
of the shoes allow them to that,
but they are running so fast. 

561
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,040
And what kind of struck me is 
he's like, yeah, these athletes 

562
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,360
are running like 98 percent, 99%
of their marathon pace. 

563
00:27:16,360 --> 00:27:19,840
For almost a marathon every like
10 days to two weeks, that's 

564
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,400
insane. 
That means that when they get, 

565
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,600
when they get to marathon day, 
they're like, yeah, I've done 

566
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,400
this all the time. 
It's nothing new. 

567
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,240
It's not a foreign experience. 
It's not a foreign experience. 

568
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,240
We are like good luck staying 
with them because then when they

569
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,440
get that last like 105% that you
can give during the race, then 

570
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,360
you're like, Oh my gosh. 
So we really shouldn't be 

571
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:42,800
surprised when people are 
running like the recently out of

572
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,320
the Tokyo Marathon that ran 2O2.
It's like, yeah, he probably 

573
00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:50,560
does not fall off that, like he 
up 100 times like that's, you 

574
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,800
know. 
But I think that's an example 

575
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,040
of, and I need to be very 
cautious when I say this is 

576
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,320
people, some people are willing 
to take these things and push 

577
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,680
them to the absolute limit. 
And if you're hurting just as 

578
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,680
much as you did before, you're 
going to get the stimulus. 

579
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:06,960
But you have to realize that if 
you do the same thing as you did

580
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,560
with the Super shoes before, you
may not experience as much 

581
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,080
improvement and you may plateau 
quicker because you're not. 

582
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:16,120
This is so rude. 
He's like, you're not. 

583
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,760
Pushing as much as you used to. 
You're not, and I'm not. 

584
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:19,960
Meaning. 
Right. 

585
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,040
I'm not meaning to be rude, but 
I also wonder if it's not just 

586
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:26,440
hey, are you pushing as hard as 
you? 

587
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,120
Are you pushing enough? 
Is are we simplifying this? 

588
00:28:30,120 --> 00:28:32,280
Maybe that's not the case. 
Maybe there is some level of 

589
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:33,600
adaptation that your body goes 
through. 

590
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,280
It's like, well, I don't need 
to, right? 

591
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,840
Like. 
You can make the case too, like 

592
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:39,680
something in the nervous. 
System. 

593
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,520
Yeah. 
Something that that like holds 

594
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,360
you back or like because I'm 
seeing you're totally right like

595
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,360
I've seen this and had a lot of 
athletes that I've talking to 

596
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,640
that non elites to go yeah I had
such a huge Bruce when these 

597
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,720
shoes came out. 
Now I I I'm struggling to get 

598
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,600
faster right. 
And there's lots of factors that

599
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,520
go into this. 
I think what Dave and I are 

600
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,120
trying to get AT is, and you 
correct me in just a second, is 

601
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,680
you know are is the concept of 
maybe having some things to 

602
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,640
rotate through and really 
thinking about what's the point 

603
00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:08,280
of this to tool and being really
specific with it. 

604
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:10,960
Important, which we're not going
to do because we're shoe geeks 

605
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:12,920
so we're going to run in 
whatever and do stupid thing. 

606
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,040
Well, I am. 
You're smarter. 

607
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,040
Than I am training, but I I'm 
laughing because our original 

608
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,160
episode was on shoe rotation. 
I know. 

609
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:20,760
Maybe we. 
Should check. 

610
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,600
Oh, we're going to do a 
rotation. 

611
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,760
Should we go into that now? 
Like go back to it by now? 

612
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,640
We'll save it. 
We don't need a three hour 

613
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,800
episode on our hands 2-3 hours. 
Speaking of which, before I have

614
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,960
to go any farther for those of 
you that have made this far, 30 

615
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,720
minutes of this episode. 
So we promised you we'd tell you

616
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:38,920
that super secret. 
So we are partnering with 

617
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,240
Running Warehouse over the next 
several episodes and several 

618
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:44,120
weeks and they've been gracious 
to provide us a couple $100.00 

619
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,120
gift cards that we are going to 
be giving out each episode. 

620
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,240
So if you want to be entered in 
the raffle for one of these 

621
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,320
please on YouTube, please 
comment below and you'll be 

622
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:56,320
automatically entered. 
So hey, just answer the 

623
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:57,840
subjective. 
Give us a hard time. 

624
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,120
Tell us we're wrong. 
Do something right, enter in 

625
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,200
below and comment below and 
we'll you'll be entered in to 

626
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,560
the raffle that we will happily 
to give a way to support all 

627
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,760
your running needs that we are 
causing. 

628
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,400
I'm just kidding. 
Yeah, we made it this far 

629
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,560
through US geeking out. 
But it's just an interesting 

630
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,160
concept, right? 
Like, and I think too, one thing

631
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,400
with a lot of those, like East 
African training groups, again 

632
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,720
assumption, I don't live with 
them, I don't train with them, 

633
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,920
right. 
But so much of their runs are on

634
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:36,320
like rolling dirt roads and like
they're, they're working, you 

635
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,080
know, you see what they're 
doing. 

636
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,560
Like they are not. 
You could run that easy and 

637
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,320
that's still a solid run. 
Like some of the stuff I see and

638
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,240
I'm like, holy crap, they're 
running that pace through that 

639
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,920
and it's like, OK, now put them 
on a flat road and they're going

640
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,560
to run like it's not that hard, 
right. 

641
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,520
So I think some of it too is 
just literal training stimulus 

642
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,520
as well. 
They when I I was very fortunate

643
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,520
before I left for PT school down
in Southern California. 

644
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:05,880
When I was I came back from 
college. 

645
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,680
I probably told the story before
I came back to Portland in 

646
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:10,920
college and while I was working 
at a couple running stores 

647
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,080
during that summer, I was very 
lucky that I met a couple guys 

648
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,840
from Kenya and Ethiopia who are 
running for Nike and Dias which 

649
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:20,080
were located their headquarter. 
US headquarters are in Oregon. 

650
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,480
They were nice up to say hey you
want to tag along and I was like

651
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,080
sure. 
And they were the absolute 

652
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,840
masters of knowing when to push 
and when not to. 

653
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,320
So I think they optimize that 
training stimulus because when 

654
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:34,160
we were running easy it was like
8-9, ten minute pace when these 

655
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,840
guys were all at that time. 
This is like a decade ago they 

656
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:43,240
before super Shoes were all like
2 O 520-6207 guys running 8910 

657
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:48,040
minute pace on easy runs. 
But the second they did anything

658
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:53,040
remotely hard I got dusted. 
They were running so fast and I 

659
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:57,760
was 30 coming off being a sub 
fight, 15 minute 5K like 31 

660
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,280
minute 10K guy in college and I 
was like you know it's not the 

661
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,440
fastest right? 
I'm not D1 but they would just 

662
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,200
crush me And then when they need
to run easy And so part of that 

663
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,120
is hey, how hard are you going? 
Like are you maybe thinking 

664
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,640
about the watch too much And 
somebody asked us the other day 

665
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,560
going hey, do you train by watch
or by effort. 

666
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,600
It's like I'm an effort person. 
I just the watch is they're just

667
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,600
be like oh that's interesting. 
But yeah I think they've 

668
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:25,240
optimized like that that 
training the the the stimulus 

669
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,680
and recovery stuff really, 
really well. 

670
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,600
But that's a strong like you 
said, we're not there. 

671
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,120
I've never been to Kenya, 
Ethiopia or any other of the 

672
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,600
East African countries of people
that are really excelling and 

673
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,920
being at like running 2O2. 
I don't know. 

674
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,680
I don't know if drugs are 
involved too. 

675
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:39,960
I know it's a big accusation 
right now. 

676
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,840
I have no idea. 
I know somebody's. 

677
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:44,240
Going to throw that out there in
the YouTube. 

678
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,160
Comment not to take anything 
away right that happens in all I

679
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:52,640
don't know I I somebody's going 
to say that I know doping. 

680
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,600
Man, that was not something I 
was ready for comfortable. 

681
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,800
But I don't know. 
I have no idea. 

682
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,920
I I don't I don't know right. 
It's it's it's amazing the 

683
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:06,720
amazing feats of human body. 
But. 

684
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:08,080
I'm not. 
Want to get to that level? 

685
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,800
Regardless of the country or 
where anyone is, it's rampant in

686
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,120
any endurance sports, so I guess
there's always some speculation.

687
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,520
I don't know, We're not there. 
We have no idea. 

688
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:25,120
But just curious going back to 
the shoes, asking like hey, you 

689
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:29,360
know, we always talk about shoes
or tools and how are how are 

690
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,200
the, how are we utilizing these 
tools. 

691
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,280
If you want to optimize your 
performance, if not, don't 

692
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,040
ignore all of this. 
But if you're trying to optimize

693
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,840
your performance, no matter if 
you're running a 30 minute 5K or

694
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,720
a 12 minute, 12, 1/2 minute 5K, 
it doesn't matter. 

695
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:48,040
It's still like maybe it does, 
but it, you know, how are we 

696
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,360
adapted is how are we getting 
that? 

697
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,080
No, it doesn't matter because at
the end of the day we get. 

698
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,640
Better training. 
Stimulus and rest right? 

699
00:33:55,640 --> 00:34:00,120
The, the and the more you can 
optimize that, the higher you'll

700
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,960
perform. 
And who knows what your limit 

701
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:03,280
is, right? 
Yeah. 

702
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,560
And that's not to say there's 
always some level of a 

703
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,920
specificity, right? 
Like you're if you're going to 

704
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,360
go run a 12 something 5K in 
spikes, chances are you do a lot

705
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:16,520
of spike work. 
It's like you feel comfortable 

706
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,000
running a 12 something in spikes
on the 5K. 

707
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,159
So I guess so here's my question
if you had, because this goes 

708
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,040
back to David trying to decide, 
do you want to wear flats or 

709
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:31,280
spikes for this upcoming 5K? 
So if you had spikes and super 

710
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:37,040
shoes that both weighed the same
amount, which would you choose? 

711
00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:38,920
Yeah. 
And that's a great question, 

712
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,520
right. 
Like, and I think it would 

713
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,400
depend on, I think it wouldn't 
be on the weight. 

714
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,080
I think it would be on how the 
shoe feels at the toe off. 

715
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,920
You know, like how do I actually
feel when I'm trying to push the

716
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,080
pace? 
Because at some point or another

717
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:57,240
you're going to have to pick up 
the pace. 

718
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:00,120
You're going to have to respond 
to a move like you're going to 

719
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,520
going off the line. 
Like you don't need to be 

720
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,920
urgent. 
And you watch five KS. 

721
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,040
A lot of times people just get 
off the line and like maybe they

722
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,200
run fast for 50 meters and then 
everyone settles, right? 

723
00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,960
Like everyone just kind of 
settles into whatever the pace 

724
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,680
that race is going. 
So obviously, like if you're 

725
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,920
running a 13 low, like a world 
class 5K for them, that's still 

726
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,160
a pretty comfortable pace, 
right? 

727
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,240
It's comfortable until it isn't.
And that's how it is for any 

728
00:35:25,240 --> 00:35:27,880
race. 
But like, you watch them, they 

729
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:30,280
all look like they're jogging. 
They're they're, they're fine, 

730
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:31,360
you know? 
And this would be nice. 

731
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:33,080
Yeah. 
Then you pass 2 miles and then 

732
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:36,280
the real race begins, right? 
And so that's going to happen 

733
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,480
whether or not you're a 12 
minute or 30 minute, right, Like

734
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:42,480
you said. 
And it's really what happens in 

735
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,520
that third mile. 
And so that's the thing where I 

736
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,240
was thinking earlier, I was 
like, well, if I feel good, like

737
00:35:47,240 --> 00:35:49,720
if my calves are good and 
everything feels great in the 

738
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:51,680
third mile, maybe the Super shoe
is the answer. 

739
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:57,080
But if I really want to pick it 
up and I'm trying to be 

740
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,600
aggressive and I'm going and 
really leaning into the track 

741
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,160
and I don't feel, I feel clunky 
in the Super shoe or something, 

742
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,720
like, then I'm going to really 
want that spike, right? 

743
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,280
Assuming my legs hold up and 
everything's equal, you know. 

744
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,480
So I don't know. 
It's just it was just a thought 

745
00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,400
bubble that popped up and I 
figured we'd just make a little 

746
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:18,720
episode out of that. 
I don't know. 

747
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,600
I don't know my answer. 36. 
Minutes later, yeah, yeah. 

748
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:27,200
I think the only way to truly 
respond to that is to have a 

749
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,400
pair of Evos, right? 
So if anyone's out there 

750
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,040
listening and wants to send me 
some Evos. 

751
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:34,840
David and I Evos. 
Soft. 

752
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,480
Plug. 
So what do you think? 

753
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:41,320
We also talked about this a 
little bit, but you know, a lot 

754
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,280
of the spikes have changed too. 
Like this. 

755
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:44,880
Oh, spikes of yes, of course we 
didn't. 

756
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:46,800
Even address that as well, the 
spikes. 

757
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,960
Of yesteryear, for those who of 
who use the word prescribe them 

758
00:36:50,240 --> 00:36:52,840
are not the same at all, right? 
Like. 

759
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,800
Oh I don't have any. 
I I finally I donated my Avanti.

760
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:04,240
It's my my original, like before
the Light Strike pro I oh, I 

761
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,440
don't have them. 
I don't have my original. 

762
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,280
And I gave one of your teammates
my pair. 

763
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,560
I still have my no, but oh. 
My gosh, not the light strike 

764
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,520
pro one though, but the the 
regular just just straight up 

765
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:16,520
track spike. 
Oh, the OG. 

766
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,920
Like red on white, Do you 
remember the the real? 

767
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:19,920
Branch. 
Red. 

768
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,480
Yeah, like those ones. 
Yeah, the O GS, Yeah, I don't. 

769
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,920
Have them anymore. 
That's actually, that's OK. 

770
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,280
I was wearing them in that 
picture right there, that was. 

771
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,160
Do you have the current like 
your some of your current track 

772
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,520
spikes right now? 
Yeah, yeah, I've got a few. 

773
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,920
Let me just grab them. 
Do you know, is there an embargo

774
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,480
on the one I showed you before 
the episode? 

775
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,320
You didn't show me at track 
Spike before the episode. 

776
00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:46,920
I did already talked about it. 
We just won't grab that one. 

777
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,000
Yeah, that's fine. 
Let me let me see here. 

778
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,040
All right, here we go. 
I wonder if Vijay is going to 

779
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,560
edit this part out or not. 
We'll find out. 

780
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,680
I'm curious. 
There's one. 

781
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,080
There's another. 
OK. 

782
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,600
I mean Casper, sorry. 
Casper the friendly ghost 

783
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:09,320
strikes again Saucony Terminal 
Vt really solid spike. 

784
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,680
I actually I think this 
ironically it's meant for like 

785
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,760
the distances 5K10. 
Ki think when I was in college 

786
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,480
this could have been like an 
ideal 1500 spike for me. 

787
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,840
I never really loved the really 
aggressive spikes and so this 

788
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:25,840
with how light it is. 
I mean this thing's like high 3 

789
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,000
oz. 
I think like it's it's this is 

790
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,120
like like you put pick this up 
it doesn't feel like much but it

791
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:35,320
has good stack for the track 
spike world power on HG that's 

792
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,440
in the endorphin elite that's 
I'm not saying they're just 

793
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:43,600
objective Adidas cavanti light 
strike pro you know fits right 

794
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,760
at that world athletic stack 
heights standard a little bit 

795
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,960
heavier a little less aggressive
a little more flexible So for 

796
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,640
those that kind of want that 
that's a good option. 

797
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,120
That is classic Adidas track 
Spike by the way. 

798
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,720
I like that the Avanti with 
Avanti's always been like that. 

799
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:00,480
A little bit heavier, almost 
like borderline of flat. 

800
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,720
Yeah, and then you have the 
Dragonfly, So very clearly a 

801
00:39:05,720 --> 00:39:09,320
spike right where it has that 
very spooned out kind of feel to

802
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,560
it. 
But the Zoom X midsole is in it,

803
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,120
and it again abides by world 
athletic standards. 

804
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,920
Oh, there's no embargo on the 
shoe we talked about. 

805
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,040
No, no, there's. 
No, no, I'll grab it. 

806
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:21,840
You could. 
You could buy it on their 

807
00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,200
website. 
Oh, sweet. 

808
00:39:23,240 --> 00:39:24,800
OK, cool. 
I don't know. 

809
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,640
I I'm the one that thinks about 
these things before I say I'll, 

810
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,720
I'll put that out there. 
No, it's on their website. 

811
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:33,280
Because I I've stalked 
everyone's websites to see 

812
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,480
what's available. 
New Balance MDX So this has been

813
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,800
out for a minute but. 
It's been out for a while. 

814
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:41,560
But here's a good thing right 
here. 

815
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,400
Spikes are aggressive, right? 
And so this is a middle distance

816
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,880
bike. 
Yes, I've run in it, but it's 

817
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:50,520
very spooned out. 
You're very on your toes. 

818
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,320
It amazes me that people will 
run 5K's in that. 

819
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,840
That is insane to me. 
People do, yeah. 

820
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,080
And Emma Coburn was racing the 
3K steeple on this. 

821
00:39:58,440 --> 00:39:59,760
Yeah, like. 
That makes sense. 

822
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,840
Granted, she's probably got 
calves of steel, but let me see.

823
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,720
So the other one, and it kind of
sparked the conversation because

824
00:40:08,720 --> 00:40:15,000
these were a recent acquisition.
The Brooks Hyperion LD, Hyperion

825
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,040
Elite LD, Hyperion LD, it 
doesn't matter. 

826
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,200
But yeah, it's their long 
distance track spike. 

827
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:25,720
Obviously Josh Kerr has been 
running quite well in it, but I 

828
00:40:25,720 --> 00:40:26,960
think we were saying this 
before. 

829
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,840
I think Josh Kerr would run fast
because he's Josh Kerr. 

830
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,680
Yeah, regardless of what's on 
his foot, you know, Again, 

831
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,040
always on the side of the 
athlete here, but. 

832
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,360
So that that is, you're right. 
That is what stimulated the 

833
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,480
conversation because we're 
going, you know, how much are 

834
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:43,440
track spikes really impacting 
efficiency? 

835
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,720
You know, over a marathon 
distance totally makes sense to 

836
00:40:46,720 --> 00:40:48,320
have these shoes because 
efficiency. 

837
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,840
Actually, you know what actually
sparked the conversation? 

838
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:57,360
And it wasn't that. 
It was your eBay stalking 

839
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:59,440
habits. 
Oh yeah, my bad. 

840
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:03,720
Getting so we should have a 
review out of this soon because 

841
00:41:03,720 --> 00:41:06,280
Klein hounded on eBay. 
Wow. 

842
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:07,880
Rat me out. 
I'm going to get in trouble. 

843
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,040
They was going to be pissed. 
Yes, so my. 

844
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:19,000
EBay hunting I found a pair of 
on the on the 10K spikes for 60 

845
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,880
bucks on a brand new and I like 
immediately pulled the trigger. 

846
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,080
Wanted to try them. 
I'm not supposed to do but. 

847
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,880
So that's actually what sparked 
all of this all. 

848
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,280
Right. 
We're to wrap me out. 

849
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:33,000
We'll find out if Nathan listens
to this episode. 

850
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:34,520
We're doing it live. 
Yeah. 

851
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,320
So the question again was, hey, 
over these distances, you know 

852
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,960
there's been a lot of changes in
track spikes because now you got

853
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:42,720
some, you got a lot of the Super
foams in them. 

854
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,120
They've moved away from pbacks 
plates to now a lot of carbon 

855
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:47,680
plates. 
Things are getting stiffer, 

856
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,880
higher SAC height again with the
25mm limit, but how much of that

857
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:56,680
is really affecting times? 
Now I I will admit I think 

858
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:58,480
they've been more comfortable, 
right? 

859
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:00,480
The increased cushioning there 
makes it get a little bit 

860
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,200
easier, although my calves feel 
just as worked to be honest with

861
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:05,680
you. 
They just feel a little bit more

862
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:07,800
cushioning cushion. 
A little less harsh than they 

863
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,360
used to, but. 
And it's tough because I don't 

864
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,640
know how much of that is not 
being trained up to being in 

865
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,840
spikes, right? 
Like, I don't know. 

866
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,240
I don't know where this is 
showing its biggest impact 

867
00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:22,160
though. 
I think it's in the 1500 and 

868
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:25,040
it's really interesting. 
So if anyone wants to go do a 

869
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:29,080
study and go get data on this, 
out of all of the events, when I

870
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,280
look at the large improvements 
in times from a massive 

871
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,040
standpoint, the one event that 
doesn't seem to be touched very 

872
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,840
much is the 800. 
Yeah. 

873
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,160
That's fair. 
I feel like the standards to get

874
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:45,200
into NCA is the standards to get
into USA is who's winning at 

875
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,480
what times and qualifying for 
world. 

876
00:42:47,720 --> 00:42:50,960
Those times have stayed 
relatively consistent, right? 

877
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:54,640
Somewhere between 1:43 and 1:45.
That's always been the case. 

878
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,600
Right. 
The I would also argue for the 

879
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,200
1500 that we, you know maybe so 
we've seen some pretty awesome 

880
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,840
indoor times. 
But overall yes, people are 

881
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,640
getting closer closer, but 
nobody's as somebody did decide,

882
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,000
misses. 
Somebody ran that beat Hicamel 

883
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,880
Guruges. 
Well, that no 320. 6. 

884
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,400
Gurus is going to run what Gurus
runs, I think, regardless what's

885
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,480
on his foot. 
Like I think those are the 

886
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,240
outliers, but I think when you 
look at the masses, it's like 

887
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,120
you look at University of 
Washington as 8 sub 4 Millers. 

888
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:29,120
You look at like the just the 
sheer amount. 

889
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,760
I forgot I had to count on this 
like a while ago, but that 

890
00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,840
Boston meet had like 40 
something sub four. 

891
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:37,920
Miles, that's insane. 
You know, that used to be 

892
00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:40,080
special when I was in college, 
that was special. 

893
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,480
That wasn't that long ago. 
You know what I mean? 

894
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:45,320
Now I'm like, dude, you haven't 
broken 4 like what's wrong? 

895
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:45,640
With you? 
Yeah. 

896
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,040
Like it'd be like, Oh yeah, 
what? 

897
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:48,320
You're, I don't know, four or 
something. 

898
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:51,800
Oh, you're slow then? 
Like, yeah, it's just like, it's

899
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,400
just crazy how many people are 
running somewhere in that high 

900
00:43:56,400 --> 00:44:01,560
330-1500 range or low 340 range,
you know, or. 

901
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:04,280
Well, can we attribute that all 
to the to Devil's Ave. 

902
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,160
No, I think, I think a lot of 
it's training. 

903
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,560
I think a lot of it is programs.
A lot of them come from the same

904
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,880
programs, right? 
There's a lot more meets that 

905
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,560
facilitate this where it's like,
oh, you go there to run the 1500

906
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,240
or you go there like Brian Clay 
outdoor 1500 all day. 

907
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:23,720
You can be in Heat 6 and run a 
fantastic 1500 and then it's 

908
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:26,160
like Boston obviously for the 
indoor mile. 

909
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,840
But so I I do think there's 
other factors at play here but I

910
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,360
feel like these ultra responsive
shoes. 

911
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:37,040
It's like you're the 1500's a 
weird event where there's it's 

912
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:40,920
just long enough to where 
fatigue can still kind of play a

913
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:44,600
factor and mental fatigue and 
attentiveness and how you are 

914
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,160
within the race. 
I feel like the 800 is at that 

915
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,320
dividing point where it's like 
if your body gives it gives you 

916
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,080
know you go and run a 50 point 
first lap and then hang on for 

917
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,720
dear life the second lap. 
I don't know if it matters quite

918
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:00,720
as much and I think that's 
showing you know what I mean 

919
00:45:00,720 --> 00:45:03,600
like on the spikes like your 
your body's gas, like you're 

920
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,440
literally maxing out. 
You're just shy of maxing out 

921
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:09,080
from the gun. 
So you think that that this 

922
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:14,040
makes a larger effect on the 
1500 and 5K but 8800 is like is 

923
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,920
the kind of the gate where below
that it's not any additional 

924
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:19,000
cushioning or things like that 
may not is probably. 

925
00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,440
Not and then to again to look at
this again. 

926
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:25,320
Like look at the 400 times. 
Have the 400 times changed that 

927
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,920
much? 
Well, I mean to be fair, devil's

928
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,880
advocate here like the margin of
error of the margin of ink like 

929
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:31,800
changing. 
Exactly. 

930
00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,120
It's going to be smaller, but 
how many 43? 

931
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,400
What's her name? 
Fem Kebol. 

932
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:41,160
Yeah, who just broke her own. 
Oh my goodness. 

933
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:43,320
I I feel like Fem Kebol again 
though. 

934
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:44,920
Outlier. 
I think she's going to go around

935
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,920
49 regardless. 
Like that's what I like. 

936
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:50,480
You look at someone like Sidney 
McLaughlin. 

937
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,280
She was around before some of 
the and she's young, but she was

938
00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:56,560
around before some of these 
advancements in films. 

939
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,800
And granted she did run faster, 
but I think she was also getting

940
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,560
faster. 
She was so young like it. 

941
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:07,440
It's so hard to delineate that. 
But looking at someone who's 

942
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:11,800
older let's say Dalila Muhammad 
in the same event like her 

943
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,520
improvements were also small and
marginal. 

944
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,240
So it's like I don't know it's 
it's so hard to say right like 

945
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:24,600
but I I can't help but feel like
the 1500, I don't know why, like

946
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:26,760
I feel like the impacts are 
larger there. 

947
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:28,520
Yeah. 
And why do you say that? 

948
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:33,640
I think it's because I think 
it's a short enough distance to 

949
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,320
where no matter what you're 
going to pick spikes, right? 

950
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,800
You're you're pumping into the 
ground pretty hard, running a 

951
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,400
1500. 
But those spikes have seen some 

952
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:42,920
significant changes over the 
years. 

953
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:44,400
Like even the 15th. 
Like an off. 

954
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:49,120
Like the Nike. 
Oh my gosh, the different 

955
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:51,040
colored pair. 
Why am I forgetting what the 

956
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,120
name of this spike is? 
The victory all had. 

957
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,400
The victory. 
Yeah, Sorry. 

958
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:57,200
Yeah, like the Nike Victory is 
like 3.2. 

959
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,560
Oz like we we all ran those. 
There was nothing there. 

960
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:03,080
There was like a little P backs 
played and that was it. 

961
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:06,840
That was the only thing between 
your foot in the ground and now 

962
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,440
we have all the Dragonfly. 
Yeah, the Dragonfly. 

963
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:17,480
The all these shoes have as much
possible Zoom X or Light Strike 

964
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,360
Pro or Power Run HD. 
They all have. 

965
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,160
The Max amount there. 
But yeah, they've gained. 

966
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,760
Has that made a big difference? 
I think it has. 

967
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,400
I think it has. 
I mean I think there's like I 

968
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,040
don't know what else to 
attribute having 80 something 

969
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:40,560
guys run under a mark like like 
when it's not special anymore. 

970
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:44,320
You know people stopped counting
it like there used to be like a 

971
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:48,200
counter of how many and they're 
like, I don't, I give up, we 

972
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,480
don't count that. 
But University of Washington was

973
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,360
at like how many sub 4 miles 
could be at the Dempsey, right. 

974
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:56,960
And it was like that was a list 
and it was under 100. 

975
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,880
So if I remember correctly, when
I was running and it was like 

976
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,600
now in a single year you're 
going to have not counting pros,

977
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,080
you're going to have, yeah, 
you're going to have 60 plus in 

978
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:13,080
the same year if not like closer
to 80 and like including pros, 

979
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:17,520
you're well over 100. 
So it's I don't. 

980
00:48:17,720 --> 00:48:18,480
Know. 
Yeah. 

981
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,800
Going to stimulus stuff. 
So we just talked about this 

982
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,280
with the Super shoes. 
When it comes to super spikes, 

983
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:25,600
do you think some of those 
concepts that we talked about 

984
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:28,760
also apply going, hey, you know 
what makes you more economical? 

985
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:31,080
You're going to need to push 
hard to get the same stimulus. 

986
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:33,280
Do you think that also applies 
because these shoes? 

987
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,920
That's a great question. 
Same foams, but it's technically

988
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,880
a different design. 
I think it's OK. 

989
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,800
That's a great question because 
I think it is so much easier to 

990
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,760
hit race stimulus when you're 
working towards a 1500 as well. 

991
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,000
So much, right? 
If you're racing at sub 60 per 

992
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:51,640
lap, you got to run sub 60 per 
lap, right, Like, and that's not

993
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,000
going slow. 
If you've ever run a 400, like a

994
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:58,360
sub four mile is very special. 
It still is to me, even though 

995
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,160
we just said that like 
everyone's doing it. 

996
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,760
But you still have to go run. 
Like if you look at go to your 

997
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:07,560
local 800, like go to your local
high school meet and go look at 

998
00:49:07,560 --> 00:49:09,800
how many guys run under 2 
minutes in the 800, it's not 

999
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,240
that many. 
It still isn't. 

1000
00:49:12,240 --> 00:49:15,440
And it's like as you get older, 
like you got to run under that 

1001
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,080
two-minute mark twice, go to a 
college meet, like, yes, there's

1002
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:21,000
going to be a lot of guys 
running under 2 flat. 

1003
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:22,800
Like they're in college. 
Like now they're a little bit 

1004
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:24,040
older. 
They have more competitive 

1005
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,440
experience. 
But then again, like, they got 

1006
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,120
to double that. 
The amount of like 157 to 2 flat

1007
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:35,240
guys you see is relatively high,
but those guys are running more 

1008
00:49:35,240 --> 00:49:39,240
like 410 to 4:15 when it 
actually translates over to the 

1009
00:49:39,240 --> 00:49:42,320
15. 
So it's like I think even though

1010
00:49:42,320 --> 00:49:45,840
the 800 times aren't seeing 
these giant jumps, let's say you

1011
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:57,320
take your three, I don't know, 
338 to 341-1500 or your 356 to 4

1012
00:49:57,320 --> 00:50:03,080
flat Miller, they're not running
one 46147. 

1013
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,320
You know what I mean? 
Like, like the gap and these 

1014
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:09,440
margins are so small, right? 
But like they're still running. 

1015
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:11,920
I don't know. 
They're usually probably 152 

1016
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:17,720
guys, 151 guys like and then if 
you look at the guys that are 

1017
00:50:17,720 --> 00:50:20,920
running even faster, like 
they're the 800, it's not 

1018
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,560
shifting is what it's what I'm 
getting at is like you're 

1019
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,640
looking at these 350 milers and 
you look at someone like Cole 

1020
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:30,760
Hawker, What did he run? 
He ran 146. 

1021
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:32,360
I think that's actually really 
good. 

1022
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,440
But I'm thinking like Centro, 
it's ran. 

1023
00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,480
What did he run? 
One 48147, something like that. 

1024
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,720
No idea. 
But the guy can run 350. 

1025
00:50:42,240 --> 00:50:44,160
Yeah. 
You know and so I I feel like 

1026
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:48,160
when you start seeing these 
advancements like and oh that's 

1027
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,080
unfair too. 
Did he run that before 

1028
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:56,960
dragonflies I I got a history 
Fact Check my own self on that 

1029
00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:00,240
but I just I just feel like the 
masses like I'm not seeing 

1030
00:51:00,240 --> 00:51:03,440
shifts in the shorter event but 
I'm seeing for the same people 

1031
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:06,800
and you're seeing these massive 
jumps in the other. 

1032
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,480
And I think it's easy to do 815 
hundred work and be a middle 

1033
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:15,120
distance athlete and see big 
improvements in the 1500 and not

1034
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,600
see it as much in the 800 and 
maybe that means the 800 people 

1035
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:20,000
have to train more like 400 
people. 

1036
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:21,400
I don't know it worked for 
Donovan Brazier. 

1037
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,560
I don't know if it but obviously
he's had plenty of injury issues

1038
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:27,920
himself and things like that. 
So I don't know where the 

1039
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,320
tipping point is on that this is
all Again, I'm speaking out of 

1040
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:33,400
my butt here, but. 
I'm going to take this to the to

1041
00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:37,920
the recreational runner because 
I feel like the average marathon

1042
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,720
time is still increasing and 
part of that, the major thing is

1043
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,840
people are participating in this
just than ever before, which is 

1044
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,080
awesome. 
Like people are active, they're 

1045
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:49,480
doing merit, which is awesome 
right? 

1046
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:52,120
This is more accessible but they
have shoes that facilitates it's

1047
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:55,320
more accessible. 
So I don't think everyone 

1048
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:58,080
overall is getting faster. 
Just like I said I think the 

1049
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,120
shoes increase your capacity to 
do things right. 

1050
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,520
You can do stuff for like hold 
the pace for a longer and I 

1051
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:06,920
think you're right that over the
800 especially with even if you 

1052
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:11,520
add some of these foams in these
designs to like the the spikes I

1053
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,680
think you're right some of the 
short distance it's not going to

1054
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,360
matter as much. 
And I will even say anecdotally 

1055
00:52:16,360 --> 00:52:18,760
from looking at some data of 
some of the individual like 

1056
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:21,640
people running road 5 KS like 
your average road 5. 

1057
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,600
Ki don't think the times are 
that much faster or what kind of

1058
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,600
the the winning times typically 
in the average place is still in

1059
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,360
your 1718 minute unless you're 
in a faster area. 

1060
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,920
You get that 115 minute you know
high school or college guy or 

1061
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,080
maybe pull a post collegiate guy
occasionally. 

1062
00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,080
And then you if you go to like a
race with prize money or real 

1063
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:42,960
stuff, you might see a 13 or 14 
minute right US Rd. 

1064
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,560
championship. 
But a lot of the times I think 

1065
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,320
are quite similar because again 
these shoes, I'm going to say it

1066
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:52,920
again increase your capacity to 
do things for longer. 

1067
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,200
They don't necessarily make you 
faster and I think if you 

1068
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,800
understand that hopefully it 
helps you figure out. 

1069
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,600
Training wise if you really want
to get faster you have to train 

1070
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,320
to be faster right? 
And that might mean either you 

1071
00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:08,760
got to run harder with these 
super shoes or maybe you do some

1072
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,080
workouts without them and that 
might give you a bigger 

1073
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:11,880
stimulus. 
I don't know. 

1074
00:53:11,880 --> 00:53:13,120
Each person is going to be 
really different. 

1075
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:15,760
Like I'm training harder than I 
ever. 

1076
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,520
I mean, not including marathon 
stuff when I was doing with my 

1077
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,000
wife. 
I'm training harder than I ever 

1078
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:21,680
have. 
And it's. 

1079
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:23,840
I don't know how much stimulus 
I'm getting. 

1080
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,200
I'm just doing it because I 
want, I need to test shoes, I 

1081
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,680
need to get miles and I like 
running fast so I can do a 

1082
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,800
double threshold. 
Is it because I'm training? 

1083
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,320
No, I just want to see what 
happens, but I would never be 

1084
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:36,960
able. 
To do that, I was as bullet 

1085
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:39,800
proof as you, man. 
This dude can take a hit, Yeah. 

1086
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,880
I do dumb stuff just because, 
and I would have never been able

1087
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:47,080
to do this in in traditional 
flats. 

1088
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,520
You know, I I dabbled in some of
the stuff in my life, but I 

1089
00:53:49,520 --> 00:53:50,800
never would have been able to do
that stuff. 

1090
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:54,480
I was beat up for days, whereas 
I can do this now in these 

1091
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:55,360
shoes. 
It's not me. 

1092
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:59,040
I'm not definitely not better, 
but you know how that impacts me

1093
00:53:59,040 --> 00:53:59,960
long term? 
We'll see. 

1094
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:01,640
I don't know. 
I have no idea. 

1095
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:03,640
And more people are talking 
about double thresholds, so. 

1096
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:06,320
Yeah, I think I was kind of 
getting at that with the 1500 

1097
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:09,760
and I never like fully 
established that point was that 

1098
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:12,520
that's just long enough for some
of those fatigue resistant type 

1099
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,360
properties. 
And those used to kick in where 

1100
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:21,400
like, OK, you can hold that 59 
for one more lap longer than you

1101
00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:24,720
probably could have before. 
And that's the difference 

1102
00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,480
between 3, four seconds on a 
race depending how hard you're 

1103
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,400
kicking. 
You know, if it if that 59 would

1104
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,800
have been a 62 or something like
that. 

1105
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:38,440
And I I don't know again, but 
but it's it's hard to look at 

1106
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,040
those results and be like why 
are so many people running 

1107
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:42,920
faster. 
It's not. 

1108
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,520
It'd be one thing if it was 
like, OK, so the NCA regional 

1109
00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:50,640
standard shifted 3 seconds, you 
know, and it's like, OK, well, 3

1110
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,480
seconds is a lot. 
But that's, you know, I don't 

1111
00:54:53,480 --> 00:54:54,640
know. 
It's kind of reasonable. 

1112
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,920
But at the same time, it's like 
people are just running stupidly

1113
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:00,400
fast. 
Like when I was in school, if 

1114
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:03,440
you ran like 14, oh, it's like, 
oh, you got a chance at making a

1115
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,080
regional. 
It's like now it's like 4. 

1116
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:09,840
Like you got to run like 1340 
and you're still a bubble guy. 

1117
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,120
For 5K, yeah. 
Yeah, like, that is insane. 

1118
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:16,320
Like. 
I I mean, this is anecdotal from

1119
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:19,160
what I've kind of watched, but 
like when we were in college, 

1120
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,720
would you have ever thought 
about doing double workout days?

1121
00:55:21,720 --> 00:55:26,760
Was that, like, ever a thing? 
I don't know if I would have 

1122
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,480
been opposed to it. 
I. 

1123
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,040
Know. 
Did you did you do that or did 

1124
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:31,840
you know about anybody really 
doing that? 

1125
00:55:32,520 --> 00:55:36,400
Not really. 
We we kind of not know like 

1126
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,440
maybe we have like a short 
threshold thing like in the 

1127
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,520
morning and then maybe some like
Sprint work in the afternoon but

1128
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,920
not like but like like true 
Volumes workouts. 

1129
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:46,920
Yeah yeah like there wasn't 
anything. 

1130
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,960
We never No. 
And I I I'm seeing that as I 

1131
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,320
kind of just geek out and like 
look at the training of some of 

1132
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,120
the collegiate athletes. 
They're doing stuff like that. 

1133
00:55:54,120 --> 00:55:56,720
And part of it is, yeah, when 
they're on the, they're using 

1134
00:55:56,720 --> 00:55:59,320
super shoes on the road, so they
can do a hard workout in the 

1135
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:03,360
morning and then they can go do 
a track, a insane track workout 

1136
00:56:03,360 --> 00:56:05,760
in the afternoon. 
And you're a collegiate athlete.

1137
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:10,200
So I think some programs are 
definitely maximizing their, the

1138
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,840
capacity with which these 
athletes are doing, how good 

1139
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:14,440
that is long term. 
I don't know whether they're 

1140
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,320
going to burn out or not or what
have you or whether they're just

1141
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,200
getting better volume of 
athletes who have this 

1142
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,640
incredible potential and not 
every person's going to be able 

1143
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:24,680
to do that. 
So it's a very strong blanket 

1144
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:26,480
statement, but yeah. 
And that's the same thing we're.

1145
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,120
Talking about yeah, they're 
train. 

1146
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,000
Capacity and hard work getting 
that stimulus right? 

1147
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:36,480
Yeah, and if you can get more 
stimulus and recover, then you 

1148
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:37,880
can adapt more. 
Right. 

1149
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:41,400
But to do that, you actually 
have to push into that. 

1150
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,120
Limit. 
You have to put the work in, 

1151
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:45,560
Yeah. 
And so we're just in a weird 

1152
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,960
Gray area right now where I 
think training volume and 

1153
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:52,200
intensity is just like, we're 
just hitting uncharted 

1154
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:53,160
territory. 
I don't. 

1155
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:53,880
Know. 
So we don't know. 

1156
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,000
And people are playing around 
and we're getting some fun 

1157
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,160
results and we're seeing fast 
times and it's great. 

1158
00:56:58,280 --> 00:56:58,920
And I love it. 
It's. 

1159
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,280
Just I'm just trying to figure 
out the why behind it so that's 

1160
00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:05,520
that's like my ramble for the 
last you know hour here but 

1161
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:06,720
that's. 
OK. 

1162
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,160
My last is just wondering like, 
hey, like with the capacity 

1163
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,920
we're pushing into, like you 
know, I think some people are 

1164
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,440
really maximizing and going all 
in and we've got some really 

1165
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,640
cool understanding of how sleep 
and nutrition really impacts us.

1166
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:22,080
Notice I didn't say anything 
about foam molars or all that 

1167
00:57:22,080 --> 00:57:24,040
stuff that that could be some 
nice adjuncts. 

1168
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:27,040
It makes you feel better. 
But like sleep is being our 

1169
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,680
sleep understandings better. 
Our nutrition is so much better 

1170
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:35,080
understood how we're recovering.
Like people are getting better. 

1171
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,120
Plus, you add these things for 
the incredible ability to work I

1172
00:57:38,120 --> 00:57:41,200
think is great. 
Just again, for the rest of us 

1173
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,680
who aren't elite collegiate or 
elite athletes, ask yourself, 

1174
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:48,200
you know, you know, how am I 
getting the best stimulus out of

1175
00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:49,760
this? 
How do I try to figure out how 

1176
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:52,200
to get better if performance is 
your goal, If your performance 

1177
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:53,440
is not your goal, you just want 
to run. 

1178
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:54,920
Like, go for it. 
You know somebody. 

1179
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:55,880
There's nothing. 
Wrong with that. 

1180
00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,200
I feel like this whole episode 
we've been talking performance. 

1181
00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:59,720
Really. 
We are geeking. 

1182
00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,480
Out belong all day, all belief. 
You want to go out and have fun 

1183
00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:05,680
and enjoy your run and have a 
great time at the rest. 

1184
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:07,120
By all means, go do that. 
Please. 

1185
00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,080
Go do that. 
Go training super shoes. 

1186
00:58:09,360 --> 00:58:12,600
Yeah, all the time We get it. 
We're not picking on you at all.

1187
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,960
We get it. 
But when it comes to like all 

1188
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:16,880
our performance, right, that's 
that's where we're going. 

1189
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,680
Hey, what what's going on? 
Why we're seeing plateaus some 

1190
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:22,560
places, we're seeing insane 
performance other places. 

1191
00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,520
What does that mean? 
So you let us know. 

1192
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:28,960
Again comment yes because you 
could also get win $100 Runner 

1193
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,160
ordering warehouse gift card. 
But also comment because we're 

1194
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,920
just curious to know what you 
think we are, we're talking and 

1195
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:38,400
we we're thinking and we want 
you to follow us along with 

1196
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:40,320
that. 
So please comment below, let us 

1197
00:58:40,320 --> 00:58:42,280
know what you think about this 
conversation, be it about the 

1198
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:46,000
spikes, be about the effects of 
super shoes, how that's working 

1199
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,440
for you. 
If you are someone that's 

1200
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,680
running in in in the Super 
spikes like what do you think do

1201
00:58:50,680 --> 00:58:53,760
you think it's improving economy
And then for everyone else you 

1202
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:57,000
know David's you know in that 
elite level I'm not right so 

1203
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,400
like. 
I don't know if I go that far. 

1204
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:02,480
You are now so. 
These days, looking at that 

1205
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,560
word, that's. 
I know too much pressure explain

1206
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,040
compared to me and the rest of 
us, right. 

1207
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:11,960
So it's like what do you think 
the long term impacts of some of

1208
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:14,080
these shoes and I don't think 
it's that a big of a deal 

1209
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:16,200
anymore because like we said 
earlier, we've talked about this

1210
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:18,800
before, trainers are becoming 
super shoes. 

1211
00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:21,480
That's just how it is. 
Just curious to go, hey, as the 

1212
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:25,280
as shoes increase our capacity, 
what do we need to do about it? 

1213
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,240
So we'll comment below, let us 
know your thoughts. 

1214
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,480
We always really we do read them
if we don't respond to all of 

1215
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:31,600
them because a lot of people 
comment. 

1216
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:34,800
But thanks as always for 
listening and especially 

1217
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:37,240
listening to us geek out. 
We totally didn't do the episode

1218
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:38,600
we planned to, which we'll just 
do next. 

1219
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:39,800
Week. 
We'll just do it another time, 

1220
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:40,760
yeah. 
Yeah. 

1221
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:42,920
Please follow along and letting 
us geek out.