1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:05,640 This episode of The Doctors of Running podcasts is sponsored by 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:08,160 runcare.org. Created by physicians, 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:10,720 therapists, and trainers, Runcare aims to help runners 4 00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,400 find healthcare providers that truly understand their needs by 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,880 providing a nationwide list of recommended providers who 6 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:17,400 specialize in working with runners. 7 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:20,560 Each provider in the Run Care Network has been vetted and 8 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:22,800 evaluated so that you know you're visiting someone who 9 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:24,720 knows the value of your training and lifestyle. 10 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:27,600 The list currently features over 50 doctors and physical 11 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,360 therapists from across the US and is currently expanding to 12 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:33,680 have providers in all 50 states. If you're a doctor or physical 13 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,800 therapist who specializes in working with runners and would 14 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,600 like to join the Run Care Network, visit runcare.org to 15 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:41,520 submit an application. At this time, there's no cost to 16 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:43,000 be listed in the Run Care Directory. 17 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:45,800 Run Care's goal first and foremost is to get runners 18 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:47,240 connected with the right providers. 19 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:49,880 Visit runcare.org today to learn more. 20 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:02,400 Hey everyone and welcome to the Doctors Running Podcast where 21 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,840 we, a group of doctors, physical therapy, talk about the art and 22 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,400 the science of the things we put on our feet today. 23 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:12,080 We are extremely excited and honored to have Ultra. 24 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,320 Join us both Brian and Alex. Thank you both of you for coming 25 00:01:15,320 --> 00:01:16,360 on. I have. 26 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:18,720 We have a lot of questions for you and this has been something 27 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,000 we've been looking forward to a while trying to schedule stuff 28 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:23,160 around all the busyness of the holidays. 29 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:24,920 So appreciate both of you coming on. 30 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:27,320 Fantastic. Yeah, it's my pleasure. 31 00:01:27,320 --> 00:01:30,480 I know we had to cancel before I I got sick, so I apologize for 32 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,360 the delay, but really excited to have this conversation and to to 33 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,280 chat about some footwear, yeah. This is probably eight weeks 34 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,600 coming because of like the different scheduling 35 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,520 difficulties we've had. And we don't make it easy on 36 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,360 people because we record on Sunday nights. 37 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:50,200 So anybody who's willing to join us on a Sunday evening is just 38 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,400 really just really extra and awesome. 39 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:56,320 So thanks for doing that. So I'm going to take a really a 40 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,280 brief moment to introduce Ultra, but then I will let both of you 41 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:01,720 take the reins on this because obviously you're going to know 42 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,120 this better than anyone. But Ultra has had a unique 43 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,760 perspective and I got to brag about you two and the company a 44 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:10,759 little bit where create like kind of some of the original 45 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:14,680 individuals was creating foot shaped and zero drop footwear. 46 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,160 And Brian, Alex will let you kind of tell some of the back 47 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,120 story on that. My connection, my like minute 48 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,920 connection to Ultra is Ultra and the footwear there. 49 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:26,640 When I was in college at University of Puget Sound a long 50 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,000 time ago when dinosaurs were still roaming the earth. 51 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,600 I'm just kidding. Was one of the first companies 52 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,320 that got me thinking about what I was putting on my feet and 53 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,760 starting to ask deeper questions and I think that was something 54 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,680 great that you really did. Some of the original reviews on 55 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,080 this website again, back in the Stone Age was the original Ultra 56 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,720 Instinct, the two point O, the Ultra repetition which I'm 57 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,560 always curious if anybody remembers. 58 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,320 Actually that was a solid shoe. I really, really enjoyed that. 59 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:54,480 I've also got to give a shout out to Brian that when I was in 60 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,440 college I emailed Ultra and Brian was nice stuff to send me 61 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,800 a personal e-mail responding to some of the questions I had 62 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,600 about kind of of what was going into the thought on Zero drop 63 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:04,880 footwear and some of those things. 64 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,640 And it was a very cool experience for a very green 65 00:03:08,640 --> 00:03:11,120 individual just getting into this that hadn't even started 66 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,080 this yet. So appreciate that there's 67 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:16,080 appreciate the connection here. But Brian, Alex, if you two 68 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,800 could introduce yourselves and a little bit about Ultra, that 69 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,960 would be awesome for some we obviously know, but for the 70 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:23,560 listeners that would be great if that's okay. 71 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:27,240 Yeah, Brian Beckstead. I'm one of the founders of Ultra 72 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,680 and it's been just a wild ride. I'm sure we're going to go into 73 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,280 all sorts of details and all this, but I've been an avid 74 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,320 runner. First day of high school 75 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:39,720 actually met Golden Harper who ended up starting Ultra with me 76 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:43,080 and really Golden. We'll talk a little bit about 77 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,960 this. He he's definitely very creative 78 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:47,600 and a lot of the mad scientists coined the term 0 drop. 79 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,440 And so him and I became very close both in high school and 80 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,120 college and have a background at run specialty. 81 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,680 I started working at a running store when I was 16 years old. 82 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:01,200 I just turned 42, so that's all I know is, is footwear and 83 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,000 running and you know, no business background, but I 84 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,240 somehow managed to start a pretty good shoe company and 85 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,360 it's worked out quite well. So we'll dive into some of those 86 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,480 details I'm sure throughout the podcast, but really excited to 87 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,120 be here. I think that Ultra does come 88 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,600 from a very technical background, both Golden and I 89 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,880 have degrees in exercise science and bio mechanics and we love 90 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:24,800 talking about that, which I think really is unique in the 91 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:29,400 footwear industry, having Young bio mechanics, science driven, 92 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:34,080 unique alternative type of footwear, which is something I'm 93 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,880 very passionate about and really happy to be on the podcast and 94 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,360 talk and more depth about Ultra. Wonderful. 95 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,120 And Brian, one other question that I have for you is I know 96 00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:45,160 you you were a Co founder of the company, so you've brought it up 97 00:04:45,160 --> 00:04:47,400 from its roots. What is your day-to-day kind of 98 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,880 involvement with Ultra look like now still very deeply involved 99 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,080 or do you have a different kind of role? 100 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,080 What does it look like? Yeah, it it is. 101 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:56,920 It is different. You know for a long time I 102 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:00,920 started out doing the cells and kind of the head tester I guess 103 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,240 and then it evolved to where I became President for five years 104 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,480 of Ultra. We got bought by VF Corp in 105 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:13,560 2019, 2018, I guess acquisition 2018 and then the company moved 106 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,440 to Denver and so I stayed back I just that was it was a very 107 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,520 stressful time and it was just a lot of busyness. 108 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,120 And so now I'm still in the senior leadership team. 109 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,720 So I make a lot of more more of a consulting role, but I 110 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,560 primarily do PR right I I tell the ultra story, I'm able to do 111 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,320 speaking engagements and training sessions and then I 112 00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:37,280 still do testing with Alex. I, we were reviewing some shoes 113 00:05:37,280 --> 00:05:40,760 last week in Denver together. So I still am involved in that 114 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,360 and I also do very strategic projects for the brand. 115 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,880 You know my latest project is we've been doing a an outlet 116 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,600 where we actually sell the used shoes that people return to us 117 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,880 because of our guarantee. So it's a reduced reuse recycle 118 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,240 program and so forth. So I have my hands in a lot of 119 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,200 pies, but I don't, I'm not necessarily involved in a lot of 120 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,640 the major day-to-day and decision making processes, but I 121 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,120 I definitely am very, very involved in the brand. 122 00:06:05,840 --> 00:06:08,000 And Alex, what about you? Yeah, Speaking of Denver. 123 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:13,120 Yeah, yeah, Alex Lind senior product line manager for for 124 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:15,200 Ultra. I've been with the brand now 125 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:17,800 coming up on five years it'll be five years this June. 126 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,600 So really made the move over when the the brand moved out to 127 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:27,040 to Denver and it's been a lot of fun but very similar to Brian I 128 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,200 I started when I was 16 at a running store here in here in 129 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,280 Denver. Lucky enough my my dad's good 130 00:06:33,280 --> 00:06:36,800 college friend owned the the shop and yeah really just kind 131 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:41,200 of worked my way up there and I think I was like 2425 and 132 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,920 realized the only way I could go up was like own the the company 133 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:47,720 which of course I had no no money whatsoever. 134 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:51,280 So I've always wanted to get on the brand side and was able to 135 00:06:51,280 --> 00:06:54,280 become a tech Rep with another brand and kind of work my way up 136 00:06:54,280 --> 00:06:58,480 into into the product side. And this opportunity came came 137 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,880 about with with Ultra and I was like jumped on it the second 138 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,720 second it was posted and it's been fantastic ever since and 139 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,720 it's such a great brand and I know Brian's going to go into a 140 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,160 lot of the history of it, but it's it's so fun because it's 141 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,840 still such a young brand. But it it's you know, it's so 142 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,240 rooted in in just a lot of the the fundamentals and there's 143 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:21,560 such a good foundation of the brand which is really cool. 144 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,240 And I actually Brian, I don't know if I've ever told you this, 145 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,200 but I remember meeting you since we're talking about like first 146 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,200 introductions and 1st meetings. I think it was 2011 in the 147 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:35,440 basement of the Runner's Roost and then we actually met at Tre 148 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,200 in 2012 at and I remember you selling in still. 149 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,120 So I don't know if I've ever said that, but kind of, I think 150 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,360 you. Mentioned something about the 151 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,400 runners roost meeting and and unfortunately I meet so many 152 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:47,720 people and I have. A terrible. 153 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,080 Memory. So I apologize, but you know, I 154 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,240 will say that Alex has been great because I think that as we 155 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,440 go into a larger corporation, I think having a really technical 156 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:01,120 knowledge and just a passion for for the industry and for 157 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,200 footwear, I think Alex has done a great job these last five 158 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:05,680 years and we're really happy to have him on the team. 159 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,000 So on that note, Speaking of technical, I'm going to ask a 160 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,920 very general question and this is very open-ended because I'm 161 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,640 just curious to hear what you're thinking. 162 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,040 Ultra really started. I mean, there was a couple of 163 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,400 the companies that had like like Barefoot minimalist stuff back 164 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,360 when that was coming out. But Ultra was really one of the 165 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:28,760 first ones that had a zero drop and an anatomic shape in an 166 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:31,120 actual shoe, right? There was no fingers to it. 167 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,200 There was none of that other stuff. 168 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,919 It was actually a traditional amount of midsole material with 169 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:38,440 the original Ultra Instinct. It's been a minute since that, 170 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:40,159 right? It's been over a decade since 171 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:43,080 the original Ultra Instinct. I'm curious to hear from both of 172 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,160 you, what do you think like what's the current state of the 173 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,480 industry on zero drop and and having anatomic toe boxes 174 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,960 because it's been a while and a lot of other companies have 175 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:54,960 taken notice. So what do you where do you 176 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,000 think we are now compared to over a decade ago? 177 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,480 I think that something that you know, people say, Oh well, you 178 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:03,840 know you started Ultra and Zero Drop is great. 179 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,120 I think one thing that we don't get credit for, which I think is 180 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,160 really exciting that has happened since Ultra launched is 181 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,720 in 2011. When we launched outside of some 182 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,440 of the smaller barefoot shoes that we were, you were talking 183 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,920 about every like working using absolutism here. 184 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,040 Every shoe was on a 10 to 14mm drop. 185 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:26,520 It wasn't. There was no concept of drop. 186 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,680 It was this was it. And so I think that introduction 187 00:09:30,680 --> 00:09:34,720 of drop didn't just create a loyal following for zero drop 188 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,240 enthusiasts. It also because of the benefits 189 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,200 that people felt when they tried the shoe. 190 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,040 Every shoe company has lowered their heel heights and their 191 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,760 drop which is I think something I'm probably I'm just almost as 192 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:54,040 proud about as Ultra itself is that changing the industry in 193 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:58,040 terms of looking at engineering, looking at shoe construction and 194 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,240 that's just the drop part. We start adding that foot shaped 195 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:05,520 toe box which is when we talk to our consumers today there seem 196 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:08,040 to be just as if not they're they're actually they are 197 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,920 definitely more interested in that toast play than they are in 198 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,560 the drop which I think is really cool for Ultra that the zero 199 00:10:15,560 --> 00:10:18,320 drop which is always kind of been our flagship unique 200 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:20,800 trademark. People almost talk, Oh, well, 201 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,440 you know, I'm used to a four drop or a six drop or an 8 drop 202 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:27,000 where we never had that conversation in 2011, the 203 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:28,800 concept of drop wasn't even there. 204 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:32,600 And so I like the fact that the industry has changed so much 205 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:36,320 there that the state of the industry, we talk about toe 206 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,080 boxes now where that was not a conversation. 207 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,600 We talk about the drop in shoes. We look at engineering 208 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,480 constructions very, very differently and you see a lot of 209 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,600 new brands that have taken off in that space, Altras amongst 210 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,360 them amongst a lot of other brands. 211 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:53,760 It just weren't even thing 10 or 15 years ago. 212 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,880 HOKA on come to mind and Ultra of course you know is some of 213 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,240 the three that might be the the flagships of those. 214 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,680 But there's a lot of other brands and then existing brands 215 00:11:03,680 --> 00:11:05,400 that have had to change and evolve and it's just been really 216 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:11,040 exciting and fun that we now have options when 15 years ago 217 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,320 when we were talking about Alter it was well my air is better 218 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,520 than your gel and my gel is better than your Hydroflow and 219 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,720 my there was that's all it was was just these Cushing absorb 220 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,960 right it was Cushing system arguments. 221 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,520 There was no discussions on on the overall engineering of the 222 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,760 shoes and to be able to pioneer that and influence that has been 223 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:31,280 awesome. And I I think that the industry 224 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:32,880 is just better off across the board. 225 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,920 I believe that other brands are better because of that influence 226 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,720 and having those good discussions and having options. 227 00:11:39,920 --> 00:11:43,680 So that's something I'm really excited about as I've seen this 228 00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:46,520 evolution in in footwear over the last, you know, 10 to 15 229 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,160 years. Yeah, it's interesting to think 230 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,560 10 years ago one of the conversations when we talked 231 00:11:50,560 --> 00:11:53,840 about 12mm drop shoes, now that those are actually extremely 232 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:55,840 rare. So it's not that, you know, 233 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:58,480 having variety is, is really important. 234 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,480 There are people that do well with the 12mm drop. 235 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:05,160 It may not be that many, but yeah, with the variety that we 236 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:08,440 have now is incredible. Back during that time I was 237 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,280 running and racing flats because it's the only thing could find 238 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:14,360 that gave me that variability and it was like pulling teeth, 239 00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:17,440 trying to find like looking at heel offset and things like 240 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,760 that. Going yeah you know I'm trying 241 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,080 to shift load down to my ankle rather than having it 242 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,680 excessively in my knee and hip because I was struggling with IT 243 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,360 band stuff and I was trying to redirect like redistribute some 244 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:29,920 of those forces. So it's very interesting now 245 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:32,720 that we we talked about this over a decade later that now the 246 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,280 the entire industry, the norm seems to be more on the 6 to 8mm 247 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:42,240 drop range and you have in a ton of 0 or low drop shoes from 248 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:45,320 major companies and it's just a normal thing now. 249 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,840 Whereas then it was like super rare like you said to find 250 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:52,680 anything under 10 to 12mm and so now it's the opposite it's it's 251 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,840 getting harder to find those. So it's it's yeah, a very 252 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,920 interesting shift, yeah. Yeah I completely agree and I I 253 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,760 think you know you know growing up around run specialty and and 254 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,920 going through the fit process I it's been really nice because I 255 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,840 I think it's taken it away from being so prescriptive in in a 256 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,120 run specialty setting right where it's it's a little bit 257 00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:18,400 more collaborative with with the runner and and consumer and and 258 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,920 I really like that I think the power power is in a really good 259 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,160 spot where you know before it was like I'm just going to go 260 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:27,680 grab you an adrenaline I'm going to grab you a tooth out. 261 00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:31,200 You know we're now it's it's a little bit more of of who they 262 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,640 are in the experience that they're looking for and and I 263 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:35,320 think we're all getting smarter because of that. 264 00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:38,520 You know I like thinking very progressively in that regard 265 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:40,960 where we can always get better and and I think that the 266 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:44,520 consumer and and quite honestly the brands retail everybody's 267 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:48,240 everybody's getting better. One thing I do want to shout out 268 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,920 as well that I think the brand has has absolutely changed and 269 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,000 kind of led the charges is with guide rail and not having these 270 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,840 overcorrective shoes. And you know that's that's 271 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,200 something internally I always talk a lot about that we should 272 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,240 be really proud of as well of just rethinking what you know 273 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,120 guidance or support stability, however you want to talk about 274 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,400 it. You know, to me Ultra has really 275 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:14,040 led the way with that, you know and I I think that's something 276 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:17,680 that that Brian and and Golden and Field, you know, the team 277 00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:19,680 is, is should be really proud of as well. 278 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,480 But but yeah, I think just this constant evolution for the the 279 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,080 consumer's been great and I think a lot of it has to do with 280 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:29,760 this brand that came out during minimalism that you couldn't put 281 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,680 it on the the minimalist side of your wall and you couldn't, you 282 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,440 know you kind of explain it when it was on the the more 283 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:36,680 traditional side and it's been good. 284 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:39,360 It's it's been kind of, you know, really just a brand that 285 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,440 kind of shake things up a bit. It's hard to remember, you know? 286 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:47,840 You know for me, when when Y'all started, I was not deep into 287 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,680 running yet. Even I I'm a late to late to 288 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,640 life runner. I started recreationally in 289 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:55,480 college, but it's hard to picture that time like 290 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,760 transporting back. What did it really mean for 291 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:00,000 Ultra to drop a shoe? So I'm thankful that Y'all 292 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,840 shared that. A couple things that I'm 293 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:07,840 thankful for too is in the area era of minimalist footwear. 294 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,400 In the V brim 5 fingers I have webbed toes so I could never 295 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,840 wear those shoes because I couldn't get my toes in them. 296 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:15,400 So I'm thankful y'all didn't go that route. 297 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,440 I think the second thing that was unique too is you kind of 298 00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:20,560 had this. You have this crossover between 299 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,800 zero drop but also having cushion underneath the foot 300 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:27,000 where you'd kind of bridge that you you just you you spanned 301 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,440 categories where it couldn't quite be put decisively 302 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,440 somewhere. So I think that's super 303 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,360 interesting. And Brian, you had mentioned 304 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,960 that you and your the the co-owner or cofounder you you 305 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,480 have this background in kind of bio mechanics and exercise 306 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,880 science and that kind of drove some of your thoughts. 307 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,360 Can you talk about at that time when you were starting the 308 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:53,200 company, what were those benefits that you were trying to 309 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,520 shoot for? What sort of experience were you 310 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,440 trying to get towards? What sort of biomechanical 311 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,760 advantages changes? Whatever were you thinking 312 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,920 about? Yeah, I think our our we've been 313 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,320 talking that since day one. I I we used to do VHS tapes in 314 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,640 the late 90s at the running store and watch people and we 315 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,480 never did the about the the pronation thing. 316 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:16,280 We always, we never ever thought that the pronation thing was 317 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:18,160 real. We we would argue with our sales 318 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,600 reps nonstop about this, right. And so the the, the biomechanic 319 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:26,080 thing became a passion really from 1997 onwards for me and 320 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,960 that's something that we always talked about and that was 321 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,800 because of Golden's dad. He was really into the whole bio 322 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,720 mechanics and we watched everybody. 323 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,040 We never bought into the the video camera and watching 324 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,400 pronation thing. We just never bought that, 325 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,320 right. And I think the goal for us is, 326 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,240 is when what we would do is we'd watch people run in in shoes, 327 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,640 video analysis and this was from 98 all the way up to 2009 when 328 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,280 we started Ultra. We would watch people run and in 329 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:54,320 shoes and then we'd watch them run barefoot on grass. 330 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:57,600 And the way that they would run barefoot on grass was how we 331 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,360 wanted them to run from a bio mechanics version. 332 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,440 But we recognized, you know, for us it wasn't a minimalist thing, 333 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,040 it was a bio mechanics thing. And how could we create the 334 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,000 benefits of a traditional footwear and still allow people 335 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:14,880 to get away from excessive heel striking and and being able to 336 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:16,880 take away some of that lower leg torque. 337 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,280 And we talked all about it and that's when we started hacking 338 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,160 off the heels of our shoes. So we would it kind of went 339 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,880 through a whole started with a toaster oven went to a bandsaw 340 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,120 and and and the whole goal here is, is that we were trying to 341 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,120 just get people to land a little bit more natural right a little 342 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,920 bit more underneath their body and we were trying to do it so 343 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:41,920 it wasn't super technical either where kind of a original you 344 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:44,880 know a layman's person could get it And what we found is is with 345 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,960 the with the zero drop it just we would just watch it. 346 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,200 It was just it was awesome like people would just run better of 347 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,040 you know and so that's when we rather than starting a shoe 348 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,200 company we were just retail store managers. 349 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,880 We went to all the major shoe companies and showed them our 350 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,720 our our analysis and our concept of 0 drop. 351 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:07,320 And what we'd do is we'd lace all of the shoes with width wise 352 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:11,000 so we'd skip those lower laces and size people up a full size. 353 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:15,920 And so we would we literally gave, I mean I met with Zucchini 354 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:17,920 and New Balance and Mizuno and lost 14. 355 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,160 I mean I met at Brooks, I've met with the sales reps and even 356 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,840 shoe designers from those brands at trade shows saying we have a 357 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,880 concept. We gave away our concepts for 358 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:31,160 free to the other brands showing the research on hey, the people 359 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:33,680 run better, they run with better bio mechanics. 360 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:38,440 If that big toe can engage, you don't need a big dual density 361 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,520 posting, right? That's what it does naturally, 362 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,160 you know, and so we had all these conversations and they 363 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,760 wouldn't listen to us. And so that's when along with 364 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,320 Jeremy Hallett, who I think would be very much considered 365 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,600 the third founder, the three of us decided to start it on our 366 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,240 own. No money, we had no cash, no 367 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,960 money. And but the whole purpose was to 368 00:18:56,960 --> 00:19:01,920 get people to run better, right? To get people to to hopefully 369 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,160 right. The goal was to reduce injuries 370 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,360 that hey, all these other brands are identical and how do we do 371 00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:11,160 that as we are starting the brand, That's when the Born to 372 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,120 Run and Barefoot thing came up like crazy and we had already 373 00:19:14,120 --> 00:19:16,120 started All Child. We just couldn't get the funding 374 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,160 and so we're literally pulling our hair out. 375 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:21,000 Talking about timing, yeah. So you know, a lot of it was 376 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,840 lucky, but the other time we were like dying to get funding 377 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:28,760 because it was that's nice, but man, you can have the benefits 378 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:30,920 of that and the benefits of traditional footwear. 379 00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:36,400 And we felt that we were that perfect middle ground and it, 380 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,080 you know, so many people pinned us as a minimalist brand. 381 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:41,800 We had the same 4 foot as every other brand. 382 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,080 The Instinct, our first shoe, and the Lone Peak had the same 383 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:48,520 exact 4 foot cushioning as a Ghost or a Cascadia, which were 384 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,720 popular at the time, you know, and so, but the whole thing was 385 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:53,160 to get people to just run better. 386 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,360 That is, that was it. That was what set you apart from 387 00:19:56,360 --> 00:19:59,600 a lot of the other minimalist and barefoot brands at the time, 388 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:01,880 was that you still had enough cushions So someone like me, 389 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:04,160 yeah, you'd cushion. So someone like me, I was 390 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,880 running 100 plus miles a week. And wasn't doing that so hot 391 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,160 trying to continue to run in like racing flats and and 392 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:12,120 Vibrams. It also didn't help. 393 00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:15,520 My coach absolutely hate hated Vibrams so he'd like chase me 394 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,280 down when he saw me doing my second run and then be like 395 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,160 client of what I can't. But we said we keep this PG so I 396 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,800 can't repeat what he would say. But yeah it was nice to have 397 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,000 something I could finally do that was that was working from a 398 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:31,080 mechanics at the time that wasn't bare bones which you know 399 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:35,880 there's great stuff to the minimalist concepts and I think 400 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,360 it works really well for the for certain people. 401 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,680 But in today's age I think the majority of runners out there 402 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:47,320 typically aren't willing to put the time necessary to actually 403 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,160 adapt to running in a very, very minimal shoe. 404 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:53,560 And we found that out very quickly as people started having 405 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,880 more stress fractures and and bone stress injury and stress 406 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,840 related injuries because you know you know shoe cushioning 407 00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,640 we've talked about this before you know how it actually 408 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,040 functions is is a different story. 409 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:08,680 But still having something under your foot can be beneficial with 410 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,080 some of the more traditional surfaces that we run on in in 411 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,400 today's world. But it was very ultra was 412 00:21:15,400 --> 00:21:17,760 different and then again you got pinned as a minimal blamper, you 413 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,960 weren't. It was just, you know, trying to 414 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,280 have a different concept and give people an option. 415 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:28,200 People that didn't want a high drop or tapered toe box, which 416 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,000 was just the norm at that time. It's also interesting that I 417 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:34,200 don't know if you know this, that Beno nig up in Calgary 418 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,800 during that 1997 to 2009, he was dumping that stuff out like 419 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,000 crazy, going, hey, this whole pronation paradigm isn't really 420 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,000 doing much like we need to. We need to start thinking about 421 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,600 this like for a small group, yeah, it works awesome, but not 422 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,240 everybody else. We read every B No NIG article 423 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,480 we could get our hands on before and while starting Ultra he was 424 00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,120 very much. I've never met him in person, 425 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:03,840 but he his, his research and his philosophies were a massive 426 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,640 inspiration in the founding principles and the early design 427 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,000 concepts of Ultra. So big fan. 428 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:16,040 Alex, I have to give you a shout out because when you said hey, 429 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,920 like you know, kind of back in the day for all of us from work 430 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,680 to running sort the class thing, a lot of times instead of 431 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,560 collaborating with people it would be to go and like hey, I'm 432 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,800 going to go grab the adrenaline, the GT2000. 433 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,240 I just had like several years worth of flashbacks when you 434 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,680 said that by the way having worked fit right Northwest and 435 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,880 foot traffic was where I started in Oregon long ago. 436 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,880 What from an Ultra perspective and your perspective, how is 437 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,040 working at the brand kind of change that for you and what's 438 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,600 been your experiencing, watching this from originally an outside 439 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,920 perspective and now being inside Ultra what Brian was talking 440 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:50,800 about? Absolutely. 441 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,840 Yeah. I think, you know there was, 442 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,840 there was two things just immediately like it was, I think 443 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,800 it was within my first week. We're in this temp office, 444 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,600 everybody's moving and the two things that I think stood stood 445 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,040 out to me the most or not. I think I I know stood out to me 446 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,480 the most was one of the brand was was still really young. 447 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:12,360 So it's still very malleable, which was super exciting 448 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:14,240 selfishly for me to be able to come in. 449 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,720 And you know previously I've been with the brand and it was 450 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,800 always like we should do this and it kind of always ended 451 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,320 there a little bit you know in terms like yeah, you know but 452 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,320 there's this huge machine that we kind of have to fight against 453 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,720 and we're dealing with decades of creating product and you know 454 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,440 we we can't challenge it too much. 455 00:23:32,360 --> 00:23:35,840 The ability to kind of come in and and really like talk and try 456 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,600 and make the best possible product and collaborate with 457 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,400 great designers and developers and get the that was awesome. 458 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,080 And then the the second thing that I I really loved and this 459 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,120 is actually because before I officially started but I went to 460 00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,920 a sales meeting for Ultra and it was actually Brian presenting 461 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,760 and it it just kind of clicked where you know a lot of other 462 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,960 brands they they present the shoe as the solution and Ultra 463 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,200 was not that way, right. Ultra was was really meant to 464 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,240 work with you and yeah maybe it's a solution for for some 465 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,000 people but it's it's not this cure all and it's really that 466 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,320 that piece that's meant to work with you as opposed to like 467 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,000 fight against you in the ground and you know kind of be this 468 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:15,720 mediator. It's like no, it's it's a little 469 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,240 bit more harmonious than that and that's that's been something 470 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,200 I've really enjoyed and and it helps us you know really create 471 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,840 product as well to make sure that you know there's kind of 472 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,160 this guiding star we we have kind of a purpose statement, 473 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,280 right, which is you know inspiring the world to move 474 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,880 naturally And and that's something that just from a 475 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,440 product side we always remind ourselves or we always have that 476 00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,720 as our North Star because you know naturally can be so many 477 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,000 different things and and kind of manifest in so many different 478 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,240 ways. But it's really exciting to kind 479 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,240 of keep us moving. So, you know, it's probably a 480 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:49,560 long answer there, but those were some of the most exciting 481 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,840 things just initially when I joined the Pants. 482 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,920 So I like the term you said again not it's not a solution 483 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,440 for everyone, which is great, right. 484 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,600 It's providing options and hopefully something that can 485 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,960 help people work better. Now, Brian, Alex, can I 486 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:04,960 challenge you on a few things that I heard? 487 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,080 Do it. Sure. 488 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,560 No. So I'm curious what? 489 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,000 So what? What are they gonna say? 490 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:10,880 No, you can't. No. 491 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:12,240 We're done. I don't know. 492 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,080 Get on right now. I'm a I'm a I'm a. 493 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,240 Clinician I gotta get consent first before I like jump back, 494 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,560 jump back. So I'm curious when I because I 495 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,440 I had the same thought process and now hearing the, the thought 496 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:26,920 process of variability is really important. 497 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:31,240 So Brian, when you say natural running, what what does that 498 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,200 mean to you? What does that mean to you now 499 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,120 I'm curious. Yeah, I I think that that's 500 00:25:35,120 --> 00:25:38,480 something we've debated about that word and that usage and 501 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,800 what it means for 15 years and we continue to use it. 502 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:43,960 And it's sometimes it's really hard to define. 503 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,200 For me, I have severe scoliosis. I wore a back brace for 12 years 504 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,800 as a child. Every night my mom would strap 505 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:55,200 it on and I would sleep with it. I still have back pain 506 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,560 consistently. And so for me, natural is trying 507 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,080 to align me because I am misaligned. 508 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,800 So alignment to me is always very, very, very important, 509 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:06,840 right. And so that's where the zero 510 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,360 drop or for us, we're even doing low millimeter low drops now, 511 00:26:10,360 --> 00:26:11,880 right? We're trying to just get people 512 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,840 better aligned. You know, the toe box, you know, 513 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,360 this is not how babies are. You can look at any one year 514 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,920 old, 2 year old or 4 year old. Their feet don't look like this, 515 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,120 right? They look like that. 516 00:26:22,360 --> 00:26:25,000 I also spend a significant amount of time in South America 517 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,000 and I see what growing up barefoot in natural environments 518 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,280 looks like. Our American feet don't look 519 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,400 anything like people that grow, you know, the feet that look 520 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,320 like they did 1000 or 2000 years ago or indigenous populations. 521 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,240 And so that's what we're trying to get at with that natural 522 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:43,720 term, right. We're trying to do it 523 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,560 holistically with your body. We're trying to maximize your 524 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,920 alignment and and then the next thing and and this is maybe 525 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,800 jumping ahead a little bit, but it's about the experience that 526 00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:00,840 you have in the shoes, right. And that's what we really want. 527 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,720 We're not trying to force you to do anything with our shoes. 528 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,680 You know we have some shoes that encourage right or slow down the 529 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,160 rate of pronation like guardrails. 530 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,400 We're not trying to stop pronation. 531 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,280 We're not trying to you know and so that's the type of things 532 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,320 that uninhibited, unleashed, uninhibited things that we like 533 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,640 in footwear while still providing some general support 534 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,600 and cushion. And. 535 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:27,520 And so we've actually split out our shoe line into 44 lines 536 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,920 where it used to be, you know pronation and neutral right then 537 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:37,240 it was minimal and maximal and our ours are feel float forward 538 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,160 and fast. And So what do you want to 539 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,520 experience in ultras, right. Do you want to have a more of a 540 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:45,720 feel? Those are going to be our lower 541 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:48,200 cushion, our escalantes, our superiors, our lone peaks. 542 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,440 Do you want to float? That's your touring, your 543 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:52,080 paradigm. Do you want to have more of that 544 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,840 Rockard, more of a forward? Well, that's you know, we we 545 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,720 have a a 4mm drop shoe with a bit more of our toe rocker and 546 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,080 then we have fast shoes. Right. 547 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,960 And so for us, it's really trying to connect the consumer 548 00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,880 on a more primal level on what their experience in our shoe 549 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,360 rather than being prescriptive or forceful or dominant, we're 550 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:11,320 trying to just make it a little bit more fluid, a little bit 551 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,080 more natural, both in the experience and then of course 552 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,400 in, in in the bio mechanics and even the bio and the running 553 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,040 form and alignment and so forth. That's interesting to me and 554 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,320 I'm, I'm noticing a couple of companies doing this where 555 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,560 they're kind of they're moving away from categorizing things 556 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,400 but based on pronation or cushioning level because it is 557 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,440 confusing to consumers and they're starting to move. 558 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,040 We've talked about the the run Cat scale extensively here and 559 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,000 Alex you mentioned this where it's a lot more about 560 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,960 collaborating with the consumer and trying to give like help 561 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,520 them subjectively know what they're looking for because 562 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,120 people don't know how to describe what a 12. 563 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:48,200 But most people don't know how to describe a 12mm drop shoe or 564 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:49,720 like a Max versus minimal cushion. 565 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,640 Everything. You put something on somebody's 566 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,600 feet, Most people are going to describe any amount of foam 567 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,240 under their foot as, oh, this is a supportive shoe and we're 568 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,240 like, well, that's defined as cushioning. 569 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,640 But. OK, all right. 570 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,520 So having that subjective experience is is great, 571 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,520 especially because the more we know, the more we're starting to 572 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,160 realize. And I say this as a biomechanist 573 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,400 finishing up a PhD in bio mechanics, that bio mechanics 574 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,040 don't always match to the subjective experience and don't 575 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,320 always match to what actually might work best for someone. 576 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:20,480 A lot of times, not always it's, but frequently the subjective 577 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,280 experience that tends to be most predictive of what's going to 578 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:25,840 work. So it's interesting that that is 579 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,480 the way. So obviously we're on the same 580 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:28,840 page here. That's obviously where you're 581 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,000 going. So, and I've got a question for 582 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,480 you both too. And I think a lot of people 583 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,600 probably have had probably I guess in the run shoe geek 584 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,840 world, right. So we, our, our audience, 585 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,360 they're all interested in footwear to some extent 586 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,960 obviously interested in running. I I think a one question that 587 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,040 people are asking is what do you think the room was like when 588 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,520 they decided to not have a zero drop shoe anymore to put a lower 589 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,160 drop 4mm drop shoe when you dropped this shoe here I'm 590 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,640 holding it up for for people to say. 591 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,600 Pun intended on that one. Oh, what did I even say? 592 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,080 I don't even know. When you dropped the shoe. 593 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,040 Oh no, not I guess. It should have been. 594 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,440 It should have been elevated the shoe, right? 595 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,000 Because you lifted the. There we go. 596 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,520 But so when you when you brought this shoe out, what was the room 597 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:15,480 like? Was that a hard, was that like a 598 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,840 very difficult conversation for your team? 599 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,960 What, what was it like to consider that? 600 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,240 What was the stimulus to say? Maybe we should add some drop? 601 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:25,720 Curious to hear what that conversation was like. 602 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:27,800 And for the people just listening by the way, Nathan is 603 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,520 holding the ultra forward by the way forward experience. 604 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:33,200 Yeah. Brian, do you want me to take 605 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,920 that one? Yeah, take it 'cause you know, 606 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,880 when when the when it all happened, I wasn't in the 607 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,680 office, everyone just looked at me and I was like, you know, 608 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,160 yeah, we've we've I'll, I'll go real quick on this. 609 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:45,680 I'll let Alex go into more detail. 610 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,160 I mean we've had requests for this for 12 years. 611 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:51,880 This is not something that we've reactionarily did. 612 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,280 We had shoe designs of this in 2018 before VF bought us. 613 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,160 We had prototypes of insoles that had little wedges, right, 614 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,640 so that you could transition down. 615 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:04,560 This is something that we have talked at nauseam and so but 616 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,120 when VF bought us, obviously we're like hey, these are some 617 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,600 of the future ideas that we could consider expanding into. 618 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,960 And then Alex of course was one of the spearheaded a lot of 619 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:15,080 this. So I'll let you go into some of 620 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,800 those details Alex. But it it was almost a kind of a 621 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:25,400 it's about time you did this reaction and and as a founder, 622 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,040 yeah I got a few OU sellouts you did it whatever, right. 623 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,520 For every one of those I think I had 10 people were like oh man 624 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,280 that this is going to be so awesome. 625 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:38,160 I'm so excited this you know so it's it's been the it's been 626 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,640 exciting to be honest with you. So I'll I'll let you go in to go 627 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,080 more of the technical details on the room and the decision making 628 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:45,360 processes there. But for me it's a it was a no 629 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,200 brainer a natural extension of our brand. 630 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,080 It was the right time to do it. I I will say really, really 631 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,880 quick that it's funny that you say cut the insole comment that 632 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,200 when I was first wearing Ultra because my Achilles tendon 633 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,680 couldn't always handle the zero drop I used to take. 634 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,440 I used to buy because you would sell additional insoles. 635 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,280 I would buy them, cut the heel off, put that in the shoe and 636 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,720 that would give me just a little heel elevation that would take 637 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,200 that stress off. They made it just right. 638 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,480 So it's good to know that that was a long time plan. 639 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:15,360 Just again, not saying one drop is best for anyone, but having 640 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,280 variability for the different like bodies that we have is is 641 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,920 great. So yeah, I guess I'll take it 642 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,400 away like I guess technically it's like chapter four of the 643 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,000 the Ultra Drop saga. So I'll just talk about the the 644 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,640 current. But yeah we joined you know June 645 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,240 2019 and September 2019 is really when we were like OK 646 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:41,000 let's get it all together at that point I you know got out in 647 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:45,000 the marketplace talked talked to a lot of lot of just managers 648 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,360 owners right sales associates and and like Brian said you know 649 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,880 question always came up and what I think one thing that really 650 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:56,560 stuck with me when we were talking was it wasn't like oh 651 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,040 you guys are this throwaway brand and I don't care about you 652 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:00,760 until you bring like you're not serious. 653 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,760 It was a lot more of like I love your fit. 654 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:09,800 Your fit is awesome. I I'm, you know I'm 5560 years 655 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,760 old and I just, I've tried and I can't do it and I really want 656 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:16,440 you guys to to add some drops so I can wear day in and day out. 657 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,040 And so it was kind of nice because to Brian's point like we 658 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,600 didn't, you know, for me I I don't ever want to be called to 659 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:24,680 sell out as well. Like I want to remain authentic 660 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,600 to the brand. So we felt like you know we, we 661 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,640 really had this this kind of guide for us where it's like, 662 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,080 yeah, this is for a, a consumer right now that they actually get 663 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,520 us right, but maybe they don't necessarily, they're not able to 664 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,880 to join us right now. And so yeah, we we started 665 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,840 ideating and we actually came up with with a shoe with what we 666 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,760 call dynamic drop at the time where we were trying to get out 667 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,400 like a highly compressive foam. So similar to what Brian was 668 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,760 talking about with the Unsoles and we we tried all these 669 00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:58,120 different different concepts and tried to get there and we even 670 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,480 started testing testing out like a torrent and we were making 671 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,880 torrents with drops and torrents with you know dual density from 672 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,199 heel to 4 foot. So you know it was almost like a 673 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,679 you know kind of a fake drop it sensation at least we we tried 674 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:15,679 all these different things and one thing that we really wanted 675 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:18,239 to do is make sure that we didn't simply just make a torn 676 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,880 with drop and really this goes back. 677 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:22,440 It was. This is really the catalyst of 678 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:26,440 the silos that Brian touched on where if if we knew we didn't 679 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:30,080 torn with drop that that would have been just so inauthentic, 680 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,840 right And felt like just a money, money grab. 681 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:36,320 And you guys that that to me was selling out and that even as a 682 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,360 PLM. And so it kind of evolved into 683 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,800 this. OK, well, yeah, we want to add 684 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,880 drop, but how can we elevate even the ride under foot a 685 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,320 little bit more and get more of that kind of rocker shape, 686 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,639 right. And just have it feel more 687 00:34:49,639 --> 00:34:52,520 efficient on foot. And so that's that's kind of how 688 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,480 we got to where we're at today, where we wanted it to be, you 689 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,200 know, 4mm drop. We had talked to, you know, some 690 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,640 chiropractors and some physical therapists in the area that were 691 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,040 big fans of us and they were pleading with us. 692 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:08,160 You know, they, they're big Escalante racer fans like they 693 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,160 like our most minimal, minimal product. 694 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,840 But they're just saying, you know, we feel like if you guys 695 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,200 come out with like a three to 4mm, it's it still feels right. 696 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:22,560 It feels authentic to us and so yeah, we we kind of found found 697 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,840 where we wanted to be and then we just really wanted to make 698 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,120 sure just the under foot ride was also just distinctly 699 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:30,840 different from everything else that we had in the line 700 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,600 currently. So yeah, it took took a while, 701 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,000 but we finally got there and even working with some of our 702 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:41,040 retailers they I think we we got ready for like every bad 703 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:45,240 question and all the retailers were like awesome, let's do it 704 00:35:45,240 --> 00:35:48,720 like you guys. Like we did not have many hard 705 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,720 conversations. It was quite easy from our sales 706 00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:55,240 reps internal team and I think our internal team was you know 707 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:57,680 they saw it coming. They saw the amount of research 708 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,760 and the time and energy that we put in it that it is a different 709 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:05,600 experience under foot, right. And it is ultra esque and it 710 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:09,880 just it has those tweaks that people wanted and asked for. 711 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,840 Again, you know, we can be stuck in our ways with the same time 712 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,000 consumer want something different in their experiences 713 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:18,320 as time goes on. And in 20 years, they're going 714 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,760 to want something maybe a little bit different. 715 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:24,920 And I hope that Ultra can expand naturally and still stay true to 716 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,640 our core, right. If you like a Lone Peak or a 717 00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,800 Torn or an Escalante, they have a pretty similar film now as 718 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,960 they did 345 years ago, right? And so we have that consumer, we 719 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,720 have that. We want to expand the brand, the 720 00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:42,760 experience underneath foot and just grow. 721 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,400 Yeah it's it was a fun shoe to to run in and just to get get a 722 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,120 slightly different experience that still it like you said it 723 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,960 still felt like an ultra, but it was categorically different 724 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,720 because you did have a little bit of a rocker. 725 00:36:55,720 --> 00:36:57,680 It was a little bit stiffer front to back. 726 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:01,560 So you had some notable differences and I think I, I, 727 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,080 you know, I've, I've just been curious of how did that 728 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,200 conversation go. And I think that the merge 729 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:10,360 between the categorical shaping of your lines and the 730 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,880 introduction of this, we're more harmonious than if you were like 731 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,560 you said, just to throw something out there. 732 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,240 Something you mentioned Alex too was that you were talking about 733 00:37:19,240 --> 00:37:21,280 how you're playing with different densities of foam to 734 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,120 kind of create these different sensations of maybe a fake drop. 735 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,160 The idea they're being, I'm assuming a more firm denser foam 736 00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,720 in the heel and then a softer one in the forefoot to sink in. 737 00:37:31,240 --> 00:37:35,840 Have you had any issues in your testing as these foams do 738 00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,160 progress in our ability to make them softer and more resilient 739 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,800 and more compliant? Have you found any issues with 740 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,120 not just being zero drop, but starting to sink into like a 741 00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,200 negative drop when you have the same density throughout? 742 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,280 Is that something that you've thought about or or how do you 743 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,360 approach that? Yeah, definitely. 744 00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:57,560 Yeah. Some we've thought about and you 745 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,720 know, we, we hear about, right. There's some concerns and this 746 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:04,240 goes back even before before myself and the team when they 747 00:38:04,240 --> 00:38:08,080 were in Utah they they took a bunch of worn pairs and and I'm 748 00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,360 definitely kind of jumping ahead here but they took a lot of worn 749 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:13,680 pairs and actually cut them and they they had actually found 750 00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,760 just you know greater pressure in the forefoot. 751 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,000 You actually ended up getting a little bit of drop out of the 752 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,160 shoe as it was worn and you know that negative heel effect. 753 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,520 I've I've really get up talking with our developers and wear 754 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:30,360 testers a lot of times it's more of a sensation that that they're 755 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,400 receiving and it's almost this kind of feeling of instability. 756 00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,560 But it's something that we we want to make sure we don't go 757 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,360 too soft especially with our high stack product just to make 758 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,040 sure that you're you're not you know falling back you feel like 759 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,960 you're on like a bouncy house but it's it's something that you 760 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,120 know we we're aware of but but we've found just when we're out 761 00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,720 there and and when we're talking with people they're really not 762 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,160 actually having that that occur. It might be a sensation that 763 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,680 they feel just from like some instability, things like that, 764 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,800 but not necessarily something that's like, oh man, all of a 765 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:02,960 sudden I'm in like, you know, Earth shoes, which I think we're 766 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,720 like the -6 I think is what it was. 767 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:08,560 Yes, they were. I'm glad somebody else knows 768 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,480 what those were 'cause I actually had a pair of those and 769 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,240 definitely contributed to some Achilles tendonopathy, but 770 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:16,720 that's fine. It's it's interesting to hear 771 00:39:16,720 --> 00:39:20,360 that cause again I that was a a big concern that I originally 772 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,040 had for certain people like myself that are heel strikers. 773 00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,360 And I think Brian you kind of addressed my question where 774 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:26,880 there there is variability right there. 775 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:30,480 Everybody lands differently. What natural means for different 776 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,320 people can be completely different. 777 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,680 Even you know if you start looking at individuals in other 778 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,040 countries or in developing countries who are barefoot, 779 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,440 there is also variability in foot strike. 780 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,920 People have very different ways of moving and shoe can influence 781 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,800 that. A shoe can also not influence 782 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:46,960 that. That's totally different on the 783 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:48,920 person. It is interesting to hear that a 784 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:51,280 lot of that sensation that that's still in the majority of 785 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,680 people, you're going to still start compressing more the 786 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:56,520 forefoot. But that does make sense that 787 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,400 when you take somebody and put them in a zero drop shoe or 788 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,440 something, lower their bio mechanics that at least 789 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,640 visually. May not change, but people 790 00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,720 usually start loading the four foot more. 791 00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:09,800 So it makes sense that as you get used to it, you actually 792 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,200 create a drop as you break the shoe in. 793 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,040 So that just is interesting to hear that confirm because that's 794 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,240 where the load shifts to right footwear, what you have on your 795 00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:21,800 foot changes often where things are getting loaded, not 796 00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:25,160 necessarily change how much, but it definitely change where 797 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:26,680 things are going. So it's interesting to hear 798 00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,760 that. It's also interesting again by 799 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:32,040 the way that so talking on the same thing, Brian, you mentioned 800 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,960 you know the understanding some of the changes Alex, that you 801 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,080 mentioned are happening in terms of the 4mm drop. 802 00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,120 Before I go any farther before I lose this thought, it is totally 803 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,400 normal for people listening and you two are going to know this 804 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:47,280 that it takes at least three to four years for a a company to 805 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,240 take a new concept and get it to market. 806 00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:52,440 So when you said that was like 2019 I'm like oh that makes 807 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,640 total sense why now we're seeing this because it takes that long 808 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,200 to develop it wear tested get everything ready. 809 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,760 So for those listening that's a behind the scenes thing that 810 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,680 we've we've heard. So all kudos to you on that it 811 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,480 takes an immense amount of work. It's also funny because all the 812 00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,360 people we've talked to in the poor industry are you just like, 813 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,000 hey when something comes out they're like, didn't that's just 814 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,360 coming out now. Like we're that didn't come out 815 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:16,440 a while ago. I was like, yeah, because you're 816 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,760 working on what, what's like three to four years from now? 817 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:20,320 We just. Launched like Lone Peak. 818 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:23,680 Seven, most people have Lone Peak sevens like Lone Peak 8 819 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,600 just launched last week, right. We're working on Lone Peak 10s 820 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,360 right now. Like it's like it's that is 821 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:32,800 normal like the nine is almost done and it comes out next 822 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,920 January, right, like like it takes and that's an existing 823 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:39,080 product. When you talk about new or 824 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,040 innovation, these new that you're talking 3-4 years when 825 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,160 you're talking in line, you're talking 18 to 24, four months, 826 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,200 right. So it's it's I'm glad you 827 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,480 recognized that cause a lot of the end consumers, they don't 828 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,160 they have no concept that yeah how long we try to tell this 829 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,600 takes. Yeah, we're we'll give you a 830 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,480 hard time about concepts. We also understand how much time 831 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,320 it takes to go into this. So we'll try to be a little 832 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,920 nice. So my, my, my comment, my, my 833 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,120 question though is so Brian, you mentioned again going to other 834 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,600 countries and seeing how feet develop when you haven't had 835 00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:13,640 shoes or you've been zero drop or or like it a lot toes allowed 836 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,480 to move. How does that apply with a U.S. 837 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:22,280 consumer who has been in shoes their whole life and maybe you 838 00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,440 know like certain people their mechanics or they're like bio 839 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:28,480 mechanics can change certain people they can't. 840 00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,480 Has that influence at all some of the changes you've done and 841 00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,360 what you've done with in terms of your what are the, what's the 842 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,840 term the the concept of anatomic because people have noticed that 843 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:43,320 you've changed from just having kind of the wider toe box to 844 00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,760 there's some of the models that actually have a standard and 845 00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,080 there's actually a more, I'm forgetting the term that you use 846 00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:50,680 and I apologize like. We're going away, we're going, 847 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,360 it's gone. We're going away from that last 848 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,320 one. But you know, I think that you 849 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,880 have like the, the early days were the idealistic versions of 850 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,800 ultra, right? That's your lone peak, your 851 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,040 superior. We had the instinct, which I 852 00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:04,520 think an Escalante is pretty close. 853 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,440 There you go holding up a lone peak right there, our number one 854 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,720 selling model, right. And I think these are going to 855 00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,920 be a little bit roomier in the toe box, right, and a bit lower 856 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:15,480 cushion. And I think that Golden and I as 857 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,280 you know elite athlete you know maybe and I was never quite a 858 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,320 but fairly competitive I I've won a lot of ultra marathons. 859 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,520 I've run you know 1400 mile 100 mile races raced all around the 860 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,680 world. You know fairly competitively 861 00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,000 right. Like we we were die hard 862 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,560 athletes. We recognize that sometimes 863 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:37,360 that's that's idealistic right. And someone who's never run at 864 00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,520 45 years old, they want to get into running there, might need, 865 00:43:40,720 --> 00:43:43,360 you know, we started with, you know, the fit, right. 866 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,200 They don't need it quite as roomy. 867 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:47,600 We have our original fit and we have more of our standard, which 868 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,720 again it's less about the width and it also has a bit to do with 869 00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:52,640 the volume as well. So it's kind of a combination, 870 00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,600 little bit less wide, but also the volume top to bottom as 871 00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:56,840 well. Those are two very different 872 00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,880 things. And then of course, you know, a 873 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,440 lot of people just needed more cushion as well as they 874 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,800 transition into a zero drop. We found that the more cushion, 875 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,560 the easier it was to transition on taking that pressure off of 876 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,520 the cap and and the Achilles, right. 877 00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:11,760 And so I think there was just a natural addition. 878 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,520 You know we added in the torrent then we add the paradigm, right, 879 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:17,480 We add the air goes hold them up, right. 880 00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,080 So we have this progression that really is consumer lead and how 881 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,840 do you stay true to your core, but also hit what like the 882 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:28,320 consumer wants to buy today or tomorrow, right. 883 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:29,840 And how do you find that balance? 884 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,720 And we've had misses, repetition. 885 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,240 We've had wins, you know. I liked it. 886 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:38,640 No, it was terrible. Terrible shoe. 887 00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:42,000 I know it was. I remember having a hard time 888 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,040 selling that shoe. I remember the only person that 889 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,120 liked it, I guess. The forward experience, right, 890 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,040 All of a sudden it's probably the least non ultra that we've 891 00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,560 ever launched and yet it's also has just enough ultra DNA and 892 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,240 people love it, right? So we've had our wins, we've had 893 00:44:56,240 --> 00:44:58,720 our losses, and I think there's just this natural brand 894 00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:01,360 evolution. We still have Escalante Racers 895 00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,600 and superiors. The Lone Peak is still our 896 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,440 number one selling shoe as a brand. 897 00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:09,840 It's not like we have completely gone over to this other 898 00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,120 pendulum, right. We've stayed fairly true with 899 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,360 these natural evolutions and I think that you have to do that. 900 00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:20,000 I still personally, OK, Brian Beckstead believes that a person 901 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,200 should probably be the healthiest and the least amount 902 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,360 of cushion that they personally can handle and take the time and 903 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,600 energy to transition to, right? But I think as a brand ultra, we 904 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,480 recognize that that's just not realistic and you have to do 905 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,520 certain things. And I think we've done a really 906 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,440 good job of finding that balance. 907 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,400 It's not been perfect, right? We've made mistakes, but I'm 908 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:45,280 really proud of that evolution. So my little ultra. 909 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,360 So this is going to be. I have a question at the end of 910 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,920 this story. But my ultra love story is that 911 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:55,480 I was on a kind of three night backpacking trip in Great Smoky 912 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,800 Mountain National Park with some friends and I was actually wear 913 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:03,040 testing some other shoes. And we were going the opposite 914 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,160 direction of the thru hikers. Like every. 915 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,800 I mean it was most thru hikers were wearing the Lone Peak and I 916 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:12,680 had not worn a Lone Peak up to that point. 917 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,480 And I just kept like looking at those shoes. 918 00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:17,480 I'm like, I got to try that when I get back, that's what I got to 919 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,760 try. And I got, I got this pair, 920 00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,080 which is Lone Peak 5, and I got it and I put it on like darn it, 921 00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:28,240 I wish I had that for that trip because my feet were like in 922 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:31,960 pretty rough shape, you know, I was not in backpacking shape 923 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:35,160 being from central Wisconsin, it's not just like my natural 924 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:38,160 thing to be able to go do that. And I just, I fell in love with 925 00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,400 this shoe. I I still use this shoe to this 926 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,640 day. And I have the 8 here as well, 927 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,240 the one that just dropped. And there are some notable 928 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:48,080 differences over these three, but they still have the same 929 00:46:48,080 --> 00:46:52,360 kind of DNA. My my question for you is you 930 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,720 have a lot of these shoes that have kind of maintained their 931 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:56,800 roots. Like these two shoes have a lot 932 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:58,880 of similarities. There's a little more structure 933 00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,600 in the heel, a little bit stiffer of a toe box, maybe a 934 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,760 little less volume, but there's a lot of the same DNA. 935 00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,200 And then you talked about kind of these expansions in these 936 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,000 going different directions and you you've came out with a a 937 00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,680 carbon plated shoe in the last couple years too. 938 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,080 So what do you see as kind of the direction of Ultra in terms 939 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,360 of innovation? What sort of new frontiers are 940 00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:23,600 you going to be trying to go towards and and and what things 941 00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:24,600 are going to be staying the same? 942 00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:26,760 I'll let Alex take that one. That's his. 943 00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,960 That's your job. That's his job right there. 944 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:31,880 Let's see. Yeah, we'll see if I make it 945 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,600 through the week after this one. Yeah. 946 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:36,040 Yeah, No. Your your. 947 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,280 Your yearly evaluation is right now. 948 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,240 Right now, no it it really you know from an idealistic 949 00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:45,280 standpoint from our end it, it really goes back to to the 950 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,440 silos. You know when we pre silo we'll 951 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,920 we'll call it and and these silos are pretty internal, 952 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,240 right. It's not necessarily something 953 00:47:53,240 --> 00:47:56,640 that we're going to be jamming down the consumer's throat and 954 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,760 you have to be in this. But before it and you know 955 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,160 Nathan, you were holding up a torn. 956 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,880 We were just trying to make torn for everybody, right. 957 00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:06,120 And we're trying to make Escalante for everybody. 958 00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,200 And you know when you do that, you kind of make it for nobody. 959 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,240 And really what the the silos have allowed us to do is, is 960 00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:15,120 make product of a bit more purposeful. 961 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,600 So to answer your question is exactly what you were talking 962 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:20,600 about with like Lone Peak. Lone Peak. 963 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,800 We're going to you know we're going to be much more methodical 964 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:26,040 maybe even stubborn in our approach of of how we evolve and 965 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,920 how we update. And you know Brian, Brian is the 966 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:33,760 lone peak effectively from like I'm not just saying this because 967 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:38,480 of the he's our wear tester. You know even you know our our 968 00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,240 president she she comes up and like well does Brian like the 969 00:48:41,240 --> 00:48:45,520 Lone Peak like it's it's that serious and so. 970 00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,800 People always say like, oh, the Lone peaks, awesome. 971 00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,200 It's not. You made the shoe just for me. 972 00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:50,920 I'm like, no, I literally made it for me. 973 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:53,680 So yeah. Baby. 974 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:55,840 You know, I didn't make it for you. 975 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:57,520 Trust me, I made it for me. So. 976 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:01,680 We'll be in meetings like after I present it and I'll be 977 00:49:01,680 --> 00:49:03,640 messaging Brian like, well, what do you really think? 978 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,480 Like, you know, tell me. But but yeah, did you mess my 979 00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:08,920 kid up or is it still the? Correct. 980 00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:11,440 Yeah, it's. And so that it really just if we 981 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,400 want to be a little bit more purposeful and methodical. 982 00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,400 And I think a great example of that coming up is the new 983 00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,200 Escalante. I'm super proud of what our team 984 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,200 did because we just took everything of what was great 985 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,920 about the Escalante and just kind of like distilled it down. 986 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,040 It wasn't crazy in terms of innovation or evolution, but 987 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:33,720 it's just making it better for for what that that runner's 988 00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:36,680 looking for. And then you know float for us 989 00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:40,400 is our, our really cushions, you know, stable product like Torin 990 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:44,200 paradigm that will be, you know, still still evolve a little bit 991 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,480 faster than feel, but not necessarily as quick as 992 00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:51,000 something like forward or even even fast silos. 993 00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,240 Those are the 2 two categories that we feel like we can really 994 00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:56,960 like evolve and kind of push the limits a little bit more. 995 00:49:57,520 --> 00:49:59,840 And you're really, you're going to see that with compounds, with 996 00:49:59,920 --> 00:50:02,960 with design, material, everything. 997 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,040 Those those are going to be the focus of like, hey, let's get 998 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,120 after it, let's find where this, this new consumer is. 999 00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:10,760 And I think quite honestly, that's where a lot of the brands 1000 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,600 are going for. So it's, it's exciting. 1001 00:50:12,600 --> 00:50:15,760 But yeah, for our, our feel, our float product, it's going to be 1002 00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,240 a little bit slower in terms of the evolution and and really 1003 00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:21,080 making sure that we're not not alienating who's there now. 1004 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,080 And then for forward and fast, it's like, yeah, let's let's 1005 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:27,160 just try and find the best possible experience that we can 1006 00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,280 for those, those runners. Cool and is you know the 1007 00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,000 innovations that are going to be happening in that Ford and and 1008 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:39,160 fast apartments is a lot of the impetus for the the changes that 1009 00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,120 are adopted are those going to be based off of kind of running 1010 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,800 economy are they going to be based off of where testing with 1011 00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,560 people who run certain types of races. 1012 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:50,120 Are you going to be focusing more on the trail, on the road 1013 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:53,160 kind of what's what are going to be the the things that move your 1014 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,000 needle one way or? Another, yeah, great great 1015 00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,000 question for for the fast product. 1016 00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:01,160 So our Vanish Carbon, right, our Mont Blanc, we we're definitely 1017 00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:05,160 focused on on wear test and we actually have an innovation team 1018 00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:08,600 who who works really hard just making sure it's it's the best 1019 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,480 possible setup. And what I mean by that right is 1020 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,160 they're they're doing a lot of the lab testing and then we're 1021 00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:17,160 actually comparing that with the wear testing to make sure that 1022 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:20,680 you know both objectively and subjectively it, it feels fast 1023 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:24,120 and it feels right for for the consumer for that runner out 1024 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,080 there and then experience, you know I think we, we get really 1025 00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,920 excited looking at new compounds and and just understanding what 1026 00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,360 people are looking for when they're running and how we can 1027 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:37,880 best deliver that. You know, a rocker shape is not 1028 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:42,520 necessarily new, but you know how we can kind of package it up 1029 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:44,520 and and really provide it to the to that runner. 1030 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:46,800 It's something that we're looking for and we we want to 1031 00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,720 crack, but all you know, at the end of the day, all while still 1032 00:51:49,720 --> 00:51:53,440 making sure it's ultra and not really alienating who we are at 1033 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:55,760 our core. Slightly off topic, thank you. 1034 00:51:55,800 --> 00:51:58,080 And I think it was golden that mentioned this, but thank you 1035 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,920 for making rockers that don't actually become toast spring 1036 00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,440 especially in the forefoot. That is very, very much 1037 00:52:04,440 --> 00:52:07,120 appreciated and I do notice, and I do talk about that. 1038 00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,160 Yeah, we're big fans of toe vamp, not toe spring and there 1039 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,520 is a difference. So toe vamp eats into the 1040 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:17,000 midsole, right. Where toe spring would in would 1041 00:52:17,000 --> 00:52:19,600 is actually going to be in the fit pulling those toes up. 1042 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,800 We don't do much toe spring. We do toe vamp or we take it out 1043 00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,520 of the midsole which is great and I will chime in here that 1044 00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:31,720 when you talk about road or or trail, Ultra is really one of 1045 00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:34,480 two brands that dominate in both areas, right. 1046 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:36,560 That's which is really exciting for us. 1047 00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,800 And I think that you're going to continue to see that from us 1048 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:44,040 that we, we don't consider ourselves a road brand or a 1049 00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:45,760 trail brand. And the end consumer I don't 1050 00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,680 even think considers US1 or the other might be a little bit more 1051 00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,440 well known in the trail world. But we do sell more Rd. shoes, 1052 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:53,800 right, overall. And so I think that that's 1053 00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:58,440 exciting for us is that we get to play in both spaces and most 1054 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,800 Rd. brands are going to try to get in the trail and all the 1055 00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,440 trail brands are trying to get in the road. 1056 00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,880 And we're one of the only brands that get to do both, which is 1057 00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:07,360 pretty exciting. And I think you're going to 1058 00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,680 continue to see innovation in both arenas. 1059 00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:13,000 Cool. And I know you can't, you may 1060 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,760 not be able to answer this question fully. 1061 00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,840 So you can say, sorry, I can't answer that, but are there shoes 1062 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:22,080 that are going to be coming out that will have more offerings 1063 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,360 with us, a lower drop option for consumers? 1064 00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:30,480 And when it comes to kind of the top end racing models, what are 1065 00:53:30,480 --> 00:53:33,760 the next iterations looking like and what what can people expect? 1066 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:36,480 And again, I know that there's times and places to talk about 1067 00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:38,720 that stuff, and this might not be it, but might as well. 1068 00:53:38,720 --> 00:53:39,760 Ask. Let's talk about it. 1069 00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:41,480 Brian, do you want to take the honors you want? 1070 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,160 Me to, I'll chime in. I've been, you know, we've gone 1071 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,560 through various iterations of the Escalante and I'm really 1072 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:50,120 excited. I've worked closely with the 1073 00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:51,640 team. That's kind of been one of my 1074 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:53,840 baby shoes as well, at least for the road. 1075 00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,120 And we're relaunching those and I think we've distilled down 1076 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,920 every best iteration of the Escalante into this new 1077 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,920 Escalante 4. We also have an Escalante Racer 1078 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,280 2 and that she hasn't been updated ever. 1079 00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:10,000 So I think that loyal. I've been asking for that for a 1080 00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:11,680 long time a. Lot of other people. 1081 00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:15,600 So in terms of maybe additional models, there might not be a ton 1082 00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:18,040 of new models going in. There is that are going to be 1083 00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,960 more into say like the forward category where we only have one 1084 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,840 and we're going to add two more in May. 1085 00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,440 But we are going to continue to update, fine tune and press some 1086 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:29,320 of those lower cushion models that we're not going to take the 1087 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:31,920 gas off of those. So I'm really excited. 1088 00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,160 I think the Lone Peak 8 is awesome. 1089 00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:36,960 I'm currently just finished up a testing around the Lone Peak 9 1090 00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:39,840 for next year and I'm continually stoked Alex Okay. 1091 00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,200 So your job is safe because the Lone Peak is hands, right? 1092 00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,280 And then we'll talk about that with the Lone Peak 10 in a 1093 00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:50,520 couple years. But the Escalante racer and the 1094 00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,120 Escalante Four, I am absolutely stoked for these updates. 1095 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:57,320 I really think that these are rate update, so that lower stack 1096 00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:00,440 height fan I think is going to have some really awesome 1097 00:55:00,440 --> 00:55:02,240 offerings from us coming out new. 1098 00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:05,640 So that that I'll maybe chime in on that that minimal part and 1099 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:08,880 then Alex you can maybe talk more on that fast product 1100 00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,120 updates. So that's not did did Alex did 1101 00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:12,440 he? Does he get an exceeds 1102 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,160 Expectations for the yearly review is? 1103 00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:14,760 That what? I'm here. 1104 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:17,160 Yes, I I'm giving him two thumbs up. 1105 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:22,040 I'm just kidding. Yeah for so we'll we'll actually 1106 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,440 have more forward product here coming out in May which is 1107 00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,160 exciting. So another another Rd. shoe and 1108 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:30,680 then bringing out on the trail which which is awesome and and 1109 00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,200 really it's it's delivering effectively that that same ride 1110 00:55:35,000 --> 00:55:37,320 you know one one's going to have more guidance features and then 1111 00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:38,840 the other will be will be on trail. 1112 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,400 So no, I'm not talking too much about it but we are we are 1113 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:46,440 really excited to to bring those out and then yeah new excuse me 1114 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,520 new Vanish Carbon will be coming out kind of late spring, early 1115 00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:53,800 summer timing is is what we're looking at and and that's a 1116 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,440 great update. You know we we've been able to 1117 00:55:55,440 --> 00:55:58,800 update and GoPro to get just more out of it. 1118 00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:02,480 You know we're we're fortunate to be a part of this this kind 1119 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,040 of race right now of getting just incredible compounds that 1120 00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:08,360 that are they just performed so well. 1121 00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:13,000 We are moving to a full carbon fiber plate as well and the the 1122 00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:17,040 Vanish Carbon 2, which is really exciting, but what I, you know, 1123 00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,320 we kind of go back to which we're really excited about, 1124 00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,160 still a very flexible asymmetrically asymmetrical 1125 00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:25,720 asymmetrically flexible carbon fiber plate. 1126 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,240 This one's actually more flexible than the Vanish Carbon 1127 00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:32,200 1. So that's that's been fantastic 1128 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:36,120 and I mean the shoe, the shoe runs just exceptionally smooth 1129 00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,160 so we're we're pumped to get that out. 1130 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,360 Frank Lotto will actually be running in a pair at at trials 1131 00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:46,240 yeah but she's it's hard to believe it's already trials but 1132 00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:50,200 so yeah that's that's exciting what we will have a a carbon 1133 00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,920 plated trail product as well coming out. 1134 00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:56,960 So we're going to have the month long carbon which is awesome. 1135 00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,920 The the team did a great job. Our our innovation team really 1136 00:56:59,920 --> 00:57:04,240 spearheaded that and yeah it's it's going to be incredible. 1137 00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:07,800 You know, we we know carbon on the trail is is a little tough 1138 00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:10,560 and you know, experience on the the road doesn't necessarily 1139 00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:13,880 translate to the trail and the team did an unbelievable job 1140 00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:15,640 making sure that wasn't a one to one. 1141 00:57:15,720 --> 00:57:18,200 It's it's really, really incredible that Mont Blanc 1142 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,880 carbon and you know we had athletes racing Mount Blanc last 1143 00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,440 August in that shoe, right. So this has been something 1144 00:57:23,440 --> 00:57:27,320 that's been tested quite a bit and I think that efficiency with 1145 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,920 the carbon acting as a stone guard and an accelerator for the 1146 00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:35,640 ego pro above it, right. It's really, really good. 1147 00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,480 Great innovation from our team that we're coming out with this 1148 00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,840 year. So we have a lot of nerds who 1149 00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:46,040 listen to this podcast and they care about what are the foams 1150 00:57:46,040 --> 00:57:48,720 that like what what, what's the base level of the foam? 1151 00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,280 Is it an EBA? Is it piva? 1152 00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,680 Is it whatever? Can you tell us more about ego 1153 00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:57,520 pro and kind of what what sort of compound you all have chosen 1154 00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,880 for it and what you know about its properties and that kind of 1155 00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:02,480 thing? If you could tell us, Yeah, 1156 00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:04,440 yeah, I mean. Why not? 1157 00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:06,600 That's why we're here, right. Yeah. 1158 00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:12,520 So ego, ego Pro is a, you know, it's a TPE derived foam. 1159 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,920 So it's it's a PIPA based foam. It is super critically foamed. 1160 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,600 So it does does go through the Super critical fluid process 1161 00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:22,640 goes in the autoclave, you know all the all the very technical 1162 00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:26,600 stuff, the specific gravity on it's you know super low. 1163 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,280 That's, that's what's able to kind of keep that that weight 1164 00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:33,400 down softer, right. That's we we can go super soft 1165 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,200 now and and still have something that's responsive. 1166 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:37,920 So that's what's really exciting about it. 1167 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:42,200 That's probably about as much as I'd want to share with this, but 1168 00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,080 yeah, people based. So it is people. 1169 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:46,520 It is people based. I did not know. 1170 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,360 Yeah, it is. It is a people based foam. 1171 00:58:50,160 --> 00:58:52,920 So we are creeping up at an hour. 1172 00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:56,160 So Matt, do you have one final question you want to ask them or 1173 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:59,120 do either of you have one final thing you want to share before 1174 00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,400 we wrap things up? I do have a question that I I 1175 00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:04,000 have to ask but. Yeah, you have to do it. 1176 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:05,840 Then let's do it. I have to do it. 1177 00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:11,960 So I have to admit that the ultra forward experience might 1178 00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:15,880 have the best heel bevel I have ever experienced. 1179 00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,880 And for those that listen or read the channel, know that that 1180 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,720 or read read our stuff, know that's really important given 1181 00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,560 the intensity with which I slam into the ground, regardless of 1182 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,000 what drop or shoe trying to change my bio mechanics. 1183 00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:34,640 I'm really curious of what went into that and and because you 1184 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,200 know I see differences here versus you know the paradigm and 1185 00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,880 super stability models have more of a posterior flare versus the 1186 00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:44,440 the forward has a massive bevel which for someone like me is 1187 00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:47,080 it's like water it just is so smooth. 1188 00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,160 I don't know how to know how to ask this question but what went 1189 00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:52,720 into creating that bevel there which is because to me it's 1190 00:59:52,720 --> 00:59:56,520 interesting to have a map, the bevel that large on A4 1191 00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:59,240 millimetre drop shoe and to be honest that is what most high 1192 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:01,760 drop shoe should have because it really helps smooth out that 1193 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:04,440 transition that can be quite jarring. 1194 01:00:04,440 --> 01:00:06,720 So I'm just curious what went into the thought process on 1195 01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:10,200 that, because I like it. I mean this, this goes back even 1196 01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,920 you know non non dropped product or non you know elevated heel 1197 01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:20,080 product of just really trying to match the Calcaneus right and 1198 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:24,000 and keep that shape. And again I go back to before I 1199 01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:27,360 officially started with the brand and Brian was was up there 1200 01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,960 at at a sales meeting talking about it right where we don't 1201 01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,160 want to flare it out, we don't want to create this lever really 1202 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,520 we just wanted to be as close as possible. 1203 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:40,280 So it's that's all Brian, you know Brian and and that was that 1204 01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:43,320 was something that he taught me and and we were very, very aware 1205 01:00:43,320 --> 01:00:45,120 of that right. We didn't want to extend out, we 1206 01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,640 didn't want to to flare it and it just really creates a much 1207 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,440 smoother feel. And I mean, Brian, I don't know 1208 01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,080 if you have any like deep cuts on that when? 1209 01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,120 You guys, I mean it. It really, you nailed it, right? 1210 01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:58,560 We're just trying to match what the human body does with the 1211 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:02,320 calcaneus, right? Trying to maximize what an 1212 01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:06,000 amazing piece of engineering the human foot is, right? 1213 01:01:06,040 --> 01:01:09,760 And how do we get a lot of our inspiration whether it's, you 1214 01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:14,120 know, you know, our, our flex zones, you know, are going to be 1215 01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,480 following the metatarsal joints. You know, we just really try to 1216 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,560 take inspiration from the human body that we don't consider the 1217 01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,600 human body a problem, right. We consider it pretty amazing. 1218 01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:25,840 We always call it the Biohill internally, but I guess legal. 1219 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,560 We couldn't, we couldn't get any, I guess that wouldn't pass 1220 01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:30,240 legal. So internally, we've always 1221 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:31,480 called the Biohill. So. 1222 01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:35,360 Yeah. The legal teams, we don't need 1223 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:39,520 to end there, but we, we we that's what we've always called 1224 01:01:39,520 --> 01:01:42,280 it, right, is the Biohill that's been our internal again trying 1225 01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,920 to get the inspiration from our human body and we've tried to do 1226 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:51,440 that fairly successfully across the board, right. 1227 01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:54,120 Just really trying to be inspired by that. 1228 01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:58,040 And you know the strongest canted lugs on all of our trail 1229 01:01:58,040 --> 01:02:01,360 shoes are right over your metatarsals, right, which is 1230 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,080 maximum protection and where you're going to be able to get a 1231 01:02:04,080 --> 01:02:06,080 little bit more propulsion and so forth from. 1232 01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,120 So we we just try to do some of those little things and I'm glad 1233 01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:13,280 Matthew that it, it works well for you because I think it does 1234 01:02:13,280 --> 01:02:15,720 make the shoe faster, right. And that's one of the goals was 1235 01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,320 was to get a little bit of a faster poppier feel in an ultra 1236 01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:22,920 where some of our our shoes, you know historically haven't had 1237 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:25,880 that in that cushion levels. And so yeah, I'm just trying to 1238 01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,320 get different experiences for different. 1239 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:28,240 People. Yeah, I was. 1240 01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:30,560 I didn't know that going into that shoe and I was like why do 1241 01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,960 I keep ending up doing workouts in this shoe every time I put it 1242 01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:35,680 on? Like this is not, I mean I'm not 1243 01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:37,360 supposed to be doing this because I tell my patients not 1244 01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,360 to do every run like that. But you know it's just, you know 1245 01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:43,200 geometries of people responding. So I appreciate the candidates. 1246 01:02:43,480 --> 01:02:46,720 I also appreciate all of your time tonight by the way and and 1247 01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:49,480 letting us geek out together because I think I I've known 1248 01:02:49,800 --> 01:02:55,320 this from external sources hearing how geeky Ultra is and 1249 01:02:55,320 --> 01:02:58,160 Brian and Golden and everybody there about looking at bio 1250 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,160 mechanics. So it's appreciate being able to 1251 01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:02,520 confirm this. But also the additional thing I 1252 01:03:02,520 --> 01:03:06,360 will say the forward experience and being able to have the 4mm 1253 01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:07,920 drop there or whatever drop you want to. 1254 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,280 You know it drop is relative given depending how you load it, 1255 01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,720 but giving options for people is really important. 1256 01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:18,080 It's nice to hear that 'cause I think often times when you say 1257 01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:21,000 the word natural or minimalist or that kind of stuff, you cut, 1258 01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,320 start thinking sometimes a little like zealot kind of 1259 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,240 stuff, like getting a little bit extremist. 1260 01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:30,200 So it's nice to hear again talking about differentiating 1261 01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:34,280 between, hey, we have certain products that this is how we do 1262 01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:36,560 this, like the lone peak this is going to be, this is going to be 1263 01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:39,000 a certain way. Because we have not only Brian 1264 01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:41,720 who you cannot change this or he will get very upset, but you 1265 01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,520 also have a huge consumer base where if you change that you're 1266 01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,480 going to get, things are going to get really, really upset. 1267 01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:48,440 I think you know this, but there's been some interesting 1268 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:51,520 like research that came out that Ultra has one of the highest, 1269 01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,080 what was the term like the the highest customer loyalty 1270 01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,920 compared to most other brands that like it's like 7080% of 1271 01:03:58,920 --> 01:04:01,360 individuals that wear Ultra tend to get another pair. 1272 01:04:01,760 --> 01:04:05,520 So you know it's good that it's it that you're creating variety 1273 01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:08,480 and trying to meet the needs of the consumer that are going to 1274 01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:11,520 be have increased variability as they start coming to your brand. 1275 01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:14,240 But also recognize that you're going to have some people that 1276 01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:17,080 this is what they want. And so I I appreciate that 1277 01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:21,280 flexibility because that could be very difficult from a product 1278 01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,880 design standpoint especially when you're talking about your 1279 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:26,440 essence and things like that. So it's we appreciate you 1280 01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:28,920 sharing that too. Yeah, I I don't want to speak 1281 01:04:28,920 --> 01:04:30,680 for Brian, but I mean, we probably could have talked for 1282 01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:32,600 like another hour. I mean, just kind of geeking out 1283 01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,000 on this stuff, right. So thank you guys. 1284 01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:39,760 Yeah it get it gets the the the nerdiness gets even much more 1285 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:43,680 layered it's like an onion with us so you know we're happy to to 1286 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,200 do it and thanks for. Having us on, we really 1287 01:04:45,200 --> 01:04:48,600 appreciate. It we love with that background 1288 01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,160 and being a little different, we'd like to kind of push the 1289 01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,360 limits of footwear and science and and it's been fun as a brand 1290 01:04:54,360 --> 01:04:57,400 to be able to do that and thank you for for participating and 1291 01:04:57,400 --> 01:04:59,600 I'm glad it sounds like you've had some good experiences in 1292 01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:03,480 Ultra which is our goal so. Now we might have to have you 1293 01:05:03,480 --> 01:05:05,880 back on because we might have to start peeling back some some of 1294 01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:07,560 those onion layers. I'm curious. 1295 01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:09,600 Yeah. Fair does, Fair does. 1296 01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:13,120 I'd love to be on again. So thanks again for having us. 1297 01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:16,400 Really appreciate it. And you, you are awesome. 1298 01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:17,440 So. Awesome. 1299 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:21,880 Thanks for joining us and if you are following and you want to 1300 01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:24,160 talk about your experience, we never brought up our we usually 1301 01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,760 give a subjective of the day. So our subjective of the day is, 1302 01:05:26,760 --> 01:05:29,400 have you tried Ultra before? What's been your experience and 1303 01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,400 if you haven't would have been the things that have held you 1304 01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:35,280 back so you can comment below. And if you are following this 1305 01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:39,520 podcast and you like what you've been hearing, leaving a review 1306 01:05:39,520 --> 01:05:41,720 really does help this podcast continue to grow. 1307 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,800 And otherwise you can continue to follow us on our website 1308 01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,920 docsrunning.com and you can come on any of the social media 1309 01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,560 outlets that exist at Doctors of Running. 1310 01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,360 So thanks again, you too for joining us and we'll see you all 1311 01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:55,800 next time.