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Visit stride.com and see how 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:34,960 Stride powers your plan to the finish line. 12 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,520 Hello everybody and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,040 where we a group of doctors of physical therapy discussed the 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,480 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 15 00:00:51,480 --> 00:00:54,640 feet today at the round table. We have the founder of Doctors 16 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:56,880 of Running, Doctor Matthew Klein, We have Doctor David 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,640 Sauce and myself. I'm Nathan Brown and we are 18 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:04,280 excited because today we get to do a really fun set up for the 19 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,920 podcast, which is our buy or sell episodes where we are going 20 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,600 to be putting up an idea and we are going to either buy or sell 21 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,920 that idea and then talk about why we fall on one side of the 22 00:01:14,920 --> 00:01:17,760 fence or another. It's particularly fun for us 23 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,480 because we tend to not think of things in black and white. 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,360 We have a very it depends attitude as part of our training 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,160 as physical therapists. And so this brings us a little 26 00:01:28,160 --> 00:01:31,800 bit out of our comfort zone. But before we get to that part 27 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,680 of the podcast, we do want to talk about the shoes we have on 28 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,040 our feet right now in this segment is sponsored and powered 29 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:41,640 by Scratch Labs, who if you are looking to get something when it 30 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,400 comes to race or training, nutrition and hydration, they've 31 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:47,560 got a lot of stuff. You can use our code doctors 32 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,920 running to get 20% off your first order. 33 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:52,120 But what have you all been testing? 34 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,320 What? What have you had on your feet? 35 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,280 Yeah, just finished writing the review for the Solomon Aeroblaze 36 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:03,200 3 today, and then also just did third in the ASICS GT 2014 37 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,600 today. So good initial impressions. 38 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,800 I did like the shoe. It's a little bit different from 39 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,320 the previous model, but I still, I still really like it. 40 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,560 Klein's smug in, which means he hates it. 41 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,160 He has one thing to say. It's like the Keanu heel and 42 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,360 then he's like, actually, but it's not at all. 43 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,600 I'm kidding. No, it is. 44 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,680 It is. Anyways, that's what I've been 45 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:32,560 running in mostly, so just finished there ablaze, got that 46 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,120 one going and then would like to get a review of the Hoka Rocket 47 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,760 X3 out if possible. I just got to get some speed 48 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,120 runs in that. Yeah. 49 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:47,760 What about you, Klein? I also have the a sixty 2014 for 50 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,800 those who can see this and David did hit it on the head. 51 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,760 It's a it's a different shoe. It definitely is way more 52 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:57,680 speedily stable than the last version, like aggressively so. 4 53 00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,720 foot is really nice. It's a little bit of that Noble 54 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:05,360 Blast kind of pop off the front, but I this heel man, I am not. 55 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Like an. Old situation. 56 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:11,800 No, that the video edge is fine, that that aggressive thing has 57 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,520 been fine, it's just little more posterior flair bevels not as 58 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:18,280 good as the last version and it just doesn't. 59 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,400 It makes me land farther forward, which is nice when I 60 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,960 get into rhythm, but when I'm warming up and I want to have a 61 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,680 good nice heel strike, it just slaps and not in a good way. 62 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,000 I didn't mind it. I just realized I'm old enough 63 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:31,360 that some people say slaps is a good thing I'm doing. 64 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:33,000 This. Yeah, that level slaps. 65 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,680 Yeah, yeah, they're not in a good way. 66 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:39,200 But yeah, just like a rough, rough transition, it's heavier. 67 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:41,680 Those who wanted a more cushioned shoe, I think will 68 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,840 like this. But I'm still, I've got 30 miles 69 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,000 on this and ready to write the review whenever I can find time 70 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,920 to do it. But yeah, I'm, I'm on the fence. 71 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,840 There's some things I like and some things I don't with that 72 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,200 shoe, the shoe that I I did not expect to like that I think I 73 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,360 talked about last time before. You before you go into that one. 74 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:03,080 I yeah, now when so I usually don't have stability shoes sent 75 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,840 to me, but now when they do, I'm like, maybe it's one of those 76 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:08,680 new age stability shoes that's not really a stability shoe. 77 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,760 And so I put it on expecting it. And this one, I could feel like 78 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,880 it felt like it was wedged and I was like, this is just too much 79 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,760 for me. So I was I was slightly bummed 80 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,640 but that means that it has a lot of like medial sided support 81 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,880 because I was like this would not agree with me and I can tell 82 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,720 just from standing in the shoe so. 83 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,120 Yeah, they definitely went the other direction were like, oh, 84 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,400 instead of guide is like, no, no, this is a medial stability 85 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:31,120 shoe, which I think is actually good thing. 86 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:32,960 Good. It's good because we didn't have 87 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,880 as many of those. But the other shoe that I'm 88 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:38,160 really enjoying that David, I think you and I are probably 89 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,120 gonna have enough miles soon to do a review on. 90 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:41,520 So I'll probably start that soon. 91 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:46,320 But the Vamero Premium I I really like this shoe plus, 92 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,200 sorry, Vamero plus. Thank you. 93 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:50,800 I really like this shoe. I have 50 miles in this thing 94 00:04:50,800 --> 00:04:53,520 and it should not work for me. It's supposed to be neutral, but 95 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,160 it's actually, I'm able to handle this thing to my left 96 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,680 shoe. The the durability is doing 97 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:00,640 really, really well. It's been really nice. 98 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,120 It is. And I think I said this last 99 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,200 time, it is what I thought that Vamero was going to be. 100 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,360 And yeah, I'm, I'm really enjoying it. 101 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,480 I'm loving it for a variety of different miles. 102 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:13,200 But yeah. Would you say that it's the 103 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,320 Vomero plus? I get what he's saying, like I 104 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,560 wish the was this but it's the vomero. 105 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,800 It's what the Vomero should be. It's the Vomero plus. 106 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:27,880 It's what I was hoping the Vimaro was going to be and I was 107 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,920 hoping that the plus series. I think I totally must. 108 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,120 This is serious. I, I really misunderstood where 109 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,960 Nike was going with this because I looked at the Pegasus series 110 00:05:35,960 --> 00:05:38,120 and thought, OK, inline Pegasus, right. 111 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:41,920 Your standard shoe, the Pegasus plus is the lighter kind of more 112 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,480 up tempo shoe. And then you have the premiered, 113 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,000 which is like kind of crazy, like super stack. 114 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:49,320 And I thought they were going to do something similar because 115 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,160 that's what I thought. I was really hoping they were 116 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:52,920 going to do with the structure. And we have still haven't seen 117 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,720 structure plus or premium. So this is just really 118 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,280 different. I don't, I guess I'm not 119 00:05:57,280 --> 00:06:01,680 understanding the variation now where they might go between the 120 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,280 like the inline and the plus model. 121 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:08,040 The premium makes sense to me. Yeah, the the premium makes 122 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:08,600 sense. I mean. 123 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,080 Yeah, that, that makes sense. But like I think I was expecting 124 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,640 a little bit more from like a much lighter weight, a little 125 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,320 lighter ride and the premium was going to be the like the plus 126 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,440 was the faster, the premium was like the Super maximal. 127 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:22,960 But I guess I don't understand this. 128 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:26,920 I feel like I feel like the plus, I don't think it is as 129 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,000 much because I'm with you, Matt. We're like the Pegasus plus. 130 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:32,760 Was that supposed to be performance oriented? 131 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:36,320 But I think that plus version makes sense with what the 132 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:38,400 Pegasus is. The Pegasus is like your neutral 133 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,360 trainer, kind of versatile. And then the plus is like, OK, 134 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:45,720 faster Vamero is like your premium trainer, let's plus up 135 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,040 premium. So now it's like bigger, I don't 136 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,520 know, I haven't tested that one, but I think in theory it's like 137 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,560 it's more of what a Vomero is. It's more of what a Pegasus is. 138 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:56,880 That's kind of how I'm seeing those. 139 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,760 But then you have the zoom fly, which is you like your 140 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,480 performance trainer. It's like they have their own 141 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,320 performance thing. I but they that's. 142 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,280 The line of like the goal of the shoe, like the vomero is never 143 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:08,920 meant to. Correct, that's what I'm saying. 144 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,280 Right. Like it's meant to be a high 145 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,520 stack cushioned shoe. And so when you look at the 146 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,440 stat, like the specs like my men's 9.5 in my Vomero 18 was 147 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,520 right around 11 oz on the dot. So pretty heavy, right? 148 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,040 Like. Doesn't feel that heavy but. 149 00:07:26,040 --> 00:07:27,960 Yeah, but it's a good amount of rubber, right? 150 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,200 And then that Zoom X midsole is a hybrid midsole with, oh, 151 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,160 shoot, I'm blanking on it React X. 152 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,920 And then when you go to the vomero plus now it's pure Zumax 153 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:41,920 and the stack is just about the same. 154 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:47,480 And then the weight drops down to about 10.2 ounces in my men's 155 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,440 9.5. And the upper is a little bit 156 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:55,040 more airy and premium. So like it's a vomero plus, 157 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:56,760 right? Like that's where I, that's how 158 00:07:56,760 --> 00:07:59,800 I see it. It, it is vomero DNA. 159 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:01,520 It's just kind of enhanced a little bit. 160 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,240 So the similarities would be they're both like the the 161 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,240 Pegasus plus and Vimero plus both both go to full Zumex 162 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:10,880 midsoles, which feel completely different. 163 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,000 Again, just because you have a material doesn't mean it's 164 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:15,240 exactly the same. And then the premium is you're 165 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,720 going to get the zoom units. The crazier stuff like I can't 166 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:23,000 say why I live in Oregon. I've seen the Vimero premium, 167 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:24,520 I've held it, I put it on my feet. 168 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,680 It's got everybody's seen this has got the two huge zoom 169 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:33,400 airbags and just like 55 now millimeters of stack height. 170 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,440 It's of all zoom X. So I can understand. 171 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:39,039 And that's kind of similar to Pegasus premium where it's full 172 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:43,760 length of the airbag and just a little bit more snappy. 173 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,640 So I, I guess I'm just saying I'm really scared and I'm 174 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:48,560 really, I'm scared, but hopefully to see what happens 175 00:08:48,560 --> 00:08:51,400 with the structure line because I'm, I'm slight stability and I 176 00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:52,480 would just want to see what happens. 177 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,480 But I was hoping for a light stability racing shoe, but I 178 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:56,520 guess that's probably not going to. 179 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:01,000 Happen maybe somewhere else. Yeah, the one new shoe. 180 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,680 So I've been getting a lot of miles in a shoe I've talked 181 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:04,800 about before. I'm writing the review right now 182 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:10,240 the ultra experience Flow 2, so I won't talk more about that 183 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:11,280 one. But the other shoe that I've 184 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:17,440 been running in is the Oh my gosh on cloud ultra Pro and that 185 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:21,280 shoe is a trail model. It's not even like super widely 186 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,440 available. It's like only to subscribers I 187 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,000 believe, so it's not worth spending too much time on. 188 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,920 But this is the second trail shoe that I've ran in that I was 189 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:32,880 like, I wish the company would take this and just slap a road 190 00:09:32,920 --> 00:09:36,000 out sole on it because I love running in that shoe. 191 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:41,280 I did, I did like a little over 10 on Friday in that shoe on 192 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,960 like 80 to 90% Rd. like 8 or 9 of the miles were just on road 193 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,320 and it was. It's just such a nice rocker, 194 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:49,960 nice little bounce to it. It's soft enough but not too 195 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,520 soft. It wasn't unstable. 196 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,680 I loved running that thing and it's not too stiff front to 197 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:57,200 back. So I thought the fit was great. 198 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:58,480 Like it just checked all the boxes. 199 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,000 The other trail shoe that I want them to do this with is the Tecn 200 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:07,000 X3 Hokas trail shoe. I love the midsole that I did 201 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,280 like a 5 Miller on the All Rd. out in San Francisco when I was 202 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:13,560 there for a conference and I just loved it. 203 00:10:13,560 --> 00:10:15,280 So those two shoes are are there for me. 204 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:17,080 So that's pretty much it on my end. 205 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,200 Can I also throw one out there that I have miles on and I 206 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:27,520 haven't said very much about it, but the mount tacos T1 has won 207 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,400 me over. I had been kind of on and off 208 00:10:30,680 --> 00:10:34,720 with mount tacos where the the P1 actually finally won me over 209 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,000 and it took about 8090 miles and I just kept going going. 210 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:39,640 This has to get better than I figured it out. 211 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,440 The T1, I think it's the best of all of them because a it's still 212 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:49,680 got a super durable outsole and I have done probably 50% Rd. 213 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:52,240 miles in this shoe just cause of the nature of where I live of 214 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,680 like not always having time to get over to the trail. 215 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,120 So have to run to it and pushing a stroller through the trail. 216 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:01,400 But outsole is awesome. But the midsole I think think 217 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,720 they finally dialed in. So they use a peeba based foam 218 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:07,720 and the previous versions have just not felt super. 219 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,920 They felt really firm. They didn't work well until you 220 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,480 really picked up your cadence, which of mine's not very quick, 221 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,000 but this version just it's just right where it's not a super 222 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,080 foam, it's not firm. They just nicely in the middle 223 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:25,200 and this shoe higher drop rolls so nicely for longer miles. 224 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,440 So very much still an ultra marathon type shoe, but I've got 225 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:31,560 50 miles on this and I need to write that review. 226 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,520 It's been great in it, but it does. 227 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:36,280 If I've learned anything from Alta Coast, they take a while to 228 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,160 break in, but when they do, it's good. 229 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,320 So it's like a Boston 10 from Adidas. 230 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,320 Kind of. Yeah, I love that shoe after 231 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,960 like 50 to 75 miles, Yeah. That makes sense. 232 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:50,640 Takes time. Takes time. 233 00:11:51,680 --> 00:11:53,320 Well, great, that's what we've got on our feet. 234 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,240 So if you want to go check out anything from scratch, it's your 235 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,440 first time ordering from them. You can get 20% off with the 236 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,960 code Doctors running. Let's move into the buy or sell 237 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,280 portion of this episode. We have a list of things that 238 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:09,520 have been sparked by comments, things going on in the running 239 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,440 world, things going on in the shoe industry. 240 00:12:11,560 --> 00:12:13,240 So we're excited to run through these. 241 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,560 If you disagree with us, feel free to interact with us on this 242 00:12:16,560 --> 00:12:17,920 stuff. We'd love to hear people's 243 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,000 opinions and why they think the way they do about these 244 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,240 different topics. Some of them are more rehab 245 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:25,200 related or having to do with injuries. 246 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,520 Some are just about shoes. Some are about run culture. 247 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,160 And so that's where we're going to start. 248 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,320 We are going to be talking about run culture and things that have 249 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,400 been going on in the running world for a long time. 250 00:12:33,680 --> 00:12:37,240 And it's also back in the main conversations in the running 251 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:39,520 sphere and that's this. Buy or sell. 252 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,640 Runners who use illegal performance enhancement drugs 253 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:46,160 should get lifetime bans. So again, that's if they have 254 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,920 used illegal performance enhancing enhancement drugs they 255 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,720 should get lifetime fans. Buy or sell? 256 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,360 I can go first. I'm a sell and I think that 257 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:00,760 might come to a shock to a lot of people. 258 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,360 But whether intentional or unintentional, people make 259 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:06,760 mistakes. We're human. 260 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:09,080 There's a lot of pressure that goes into high level 261 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,520 competition. I'm not saying it's right or 262 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,560 that I defend it, but I do think you should have a pretty 263 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:20,720 serious, a pretty serious I, I don't want to say a ban, but 264 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,160 punishment for doing it. I think if sometimes like a year 265 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,840 or two years is kind of a slap on the wrist for some of these 266 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,480 people. Like I think if you did like 1 267 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,080 full Olympic cycle, that's like the thing that everyone trains 268 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,240 their entire lives for and taken four years away from them. 269 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,600 It's a pretty hefty amount of time when your window as a 270 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,360 professional runner isn't the longest. 271 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:47,160 So I think if you do your time, you know, then you've done your 272 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,720 time, you test, you're clean, then you can come back. 273 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,040 I I don't see why it should be a lifetime ban. 274 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,240 I unless you had like multiple offenses or something and you 275 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,160 just keep doing it. But a one time thing I don't 276 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:01,760 think should ban someone for life. 277 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:04,520 David, can I challenge you on something? 278 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,320 Go for it. There is some evidence out there 279 00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,000 that the effects of some of these performance enhancing 280 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:17,320 drugs stay maintain long after they have cleared out of your 281 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,640 system and potentially even years like there maybe it's in 282 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,840 some case, I don't think permanent, but like years after 283 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,160 taking the stuff if you've been dosing it long enough that it 284 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:30,520 will change how you adapt to training positively. 285 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,360 What do you think about that going OK, you've taken it, you 286 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,560 dosed and now there may be a much longer impact on your 287 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,640 system than potentially your bad. 288 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,520 And I, I wouldn't be very clear. I am not an endocrinologist. 289 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,400 I am not someone that is going to know the Physiology behind 290 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,520 the stuff better. This is just me being curious, 291 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,000 me talking to people and me learning from people much 292 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,760 smarter than me in this realm and going, oh, this actually has 293 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,920 some interesting effects. So what about if that if some of 294 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,720 these things actually last longer than the ban? 295 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,880 I know it's used four years, but what if? 296 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,880 Shelby's was 4, but usually it's 2. 297 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,000 That's fair. Yeah. 298 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:13,760 Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, two things on that. 299 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:16,400 So 1, the metabolites are going to stay in your system for a 300 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,840 very long time. And we see that in a lot of 301 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,880 professional sports where people are peeing clean, but they are 302 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,480 they're pissing hot for metabolites that existed, you 303 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,160 know, years ago. And it's not an actual large 304 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,320 enough effect to warrant the positive tests. 305 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,680 So then it gets scraped. But you see that a lot where the 306 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:42,080 drug testing is actually better than like it's almost too good. 307 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:44,800 And we're seeing that in some of the fighting sports. 308 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:50,080 But but then they they look at the levels, they say, OK, well 309 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,600 it's positive, but it's not positive enough. 310 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,880 Like you know what I mean? Like it something was in there, 311 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:55,960 so it tripped it, but it's not enough to actually do something. 312 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,160 And it's there because of what they had previously taken. 313 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,600 But what I will say on that on the second thing, if they've 314 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,600 been doing it long enough to warrant long term effects beyond 315 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:11,200 four years, that's shame on the doping anti doping system. 316 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,320 They should have been caught long before it was in their 317 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:18,320 system to that point to have that much long range effect. 318 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,360 If you're talking 5 plus years of advanced, you know, benefit 319 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:26,440 from because that's not a cycle, right? 320 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:29,840 That's basically a lifetime worth of doping just about. 321 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:32,440 And again, I'm not an endocrinologist. 322 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,000 I don't know the insurance and outs of that to the degree to 323 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,400 fully speak on that. But I think if something is 324 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,760 positively benefiting you over five years later from the day 325 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:44,360 you took, the last day you've taken it, that's pretty crazy. 326 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:46,200 You've got to have a lot of it in your system. 327 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,720 So I, I feel like in order to get to that point, like the 328 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,640 doping system hasn't caught you for years and that's on them for 329 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:58,360 not catching you earlier. Nathan, what do you think? 330 00:16:58,360 --> 00:16:59,560 I'm curious to get your opinion first. 331 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:01,560 Sure. Well, actually what I'm I'm 332 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,319 copping out, this is going to be my one cop out answer. 333 00:17:04,319 --> 00:17:07,160 And part of it's because I don't think I'm educated enough on 334 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,079 even just the stories of this and kind of how it goes to give 335 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:14,119 a a worthy opinion. But I will say something. 336 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:20,920 And I was talking to a colleague about this and the idea of what 337 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:25,119 if we lived in a world where people just told the truth about 338 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:28,760 what they did because like, and that spans beyond this kind of 339 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:30,280 stuff. But like, that would be like, 340 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,680 what would, I don't even know what the world would look like 341 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:35,160 because we live in a world where we just try to cover up or like 342 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,560 sugarcoat or lie straight up about pretty much any mistakes 343 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,920 that we make. And I think if any of us are 344 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,120 honest, we do that about our own lives all the time. 345 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:45,640 Like, I know that there are times where I have tried to like 346 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:49,480 sugarcoat a thing that I, I have done that wasn't exactly what it 347 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:51,520 should have been or exactly how it should have been. 348 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,320 And I just so when I think about this stuff, I'm like, we don't 349 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:01,080 have a system that equitably is going to capture everybody at 350 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,320 this point, especially in a sport like this where it's 351 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:08,120 global and it's different than like the NFL or the NBA where 352 00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:11,920 everyone can be a little bit more systematized and contained. 353 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,160 It's a little bit easier. But yeah, that's I don't really 354 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,800 have an answer for this one. I I think that another 355 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,640 interesting buy or sell would be like how much or like these 356 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,000 sorts of scandals ruin the sport for you. 357 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,280 You know, I think that would be another interesting conversation 358 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:33,000 to have as well. But I don't have a buyer self 359 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,680 for this one. I just, I think it's it, it just 360 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:37,480 kind. Of are you a buy on lifetime 361 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,080 bands? I'm a partial buy on lifetime. 362 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,400 There's no parcels. I think that, yeah, I I think 363 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,000 it's you're. Putting a lifetime sentence on 364 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:47,440 the sport. Partial buy get to do your 365 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,480 sport. Again, I'm I'm partial, I'm a 366 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,520 partial buy that I do think that there if you have dope to a high 367 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:56,800 enough level that it should be absolutely not. 368 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:59,400 And I think that there should be some kind of standardized like, 369 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,520 OK, if you are like, let's say you're caught using a masking 370 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:06,640 agent, that should be like, OK, you're you're out of here. 371 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,320 Like you're done. Like obviously you're cheating 372 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:12,040 because and most of the tests are actually looking for masking 373 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,080 agents or or homeown that are not directly related to the 374 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,400 actual substance. It's actually the response of 375 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,520 the the the response that your system does to it. 376 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,360 And I think if you're caught with a masking agent that should 377 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,480 be like you're, you're done. Okay. 378 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,840 If you get caught with like a little bit in your system, I 379 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,600 think that should be a short been like, you know what? 380 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,880 And I'll, I'll say this as someone who's been in that elite 381 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,480 world and treated a variety of people and been like, Hey, I 382 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,520 need to disclose all the the stuff that you're taking to me 383 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:42,160 because I need to know what's going on. 384 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,160 I've had some complex cases and they're just like, yeah, I got 385 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:49,200 it and I'm taking this and I'm like, and like, it's not me to 386 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,920 judge, you know, hip. I can't, you know, say anything. 387 00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:55,800 But these aren't high level like national level athletes. 388 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,520 These are like locally competitive athletes that we're 389 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:00,520 doing. And I'm like, really like, and 390 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:03,480 I, I feel like people get competitive enough even outside 391 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:04,920 of the people not making a living. 392 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:08,200 Should they not be taking them if they're not getting tested 393 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,480 and they're not professional and they're doing it for their own 394 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:12,920 reasons? No, but that that just means 395 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,200 it's not fair to everybody else. Like the whole point of this, I 396 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,280 think is about being honest and clean sport. 397 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,080 Now, if you're doing this kind of at a lower level that I think 398 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,520 that there should be like OK, like 2 year band stuff like 399 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:24,200 that. But I think there should be some 400 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:27,320 stratification of like, OK, this we've standardized to be like, 401 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,760 OK, no more right, Like you're done one and done out. 402 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,040 But other things where it's like, you know, let's let's 403 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,240 hopefully help you learn from this, like give you a 2 year or 404 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,040 four year ban. But there should be some 405 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:41,800 stratification. I don't think it should be like 406 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,440 everybody gets this. It should be like a some kind of 407 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,720 system that you know a certain part like no, you're this is no 408 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,160 done. I think the stratification gets 409 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,000 hard because, yeah, that's where a lot, that's where lying comes 410 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:55,720 in, right? And like, all of the stories 411 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,160 that can just perpetuate. And then it's like, we don't 412 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,760 even know what's true, if they even actually took it or if 413 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,440 somebody else, like, swapped out their stuff because they were 414 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,880 set up or like, there's a million stories. 415 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:09,920 And that's where it's just like, man, yeah, it's just gets 416 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:10,880 frustrating. Complex. 417 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,640 I agree. I don't have a great answer. 418 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,640 I don't. Yes, Yeah, I don't. 419 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,960 I mean like adults. I can't remember pending doping. 420 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,280 I, I, no, I can't like I'm forgetting the individual's 421 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:26,560 name, but like there was a masters runner that was like 422 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,120 cleaning up at masters nationals and turns out he was still be 423 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:32,920 like crazy. And this is not like you're not, 424 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,240 he actually won prize money, but not like professionally. 425 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,440 But that's still like supposed to be like recreational fun. 426 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,080 Like, you know, the masters athletes are listening to that. 427 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:43,520 What we do is not fun. It's supposed to be like 428 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,840 competitive. And so I respect that, but. 429 00:21:46,120 --> 00:21:50,720 Here's a question Should anybody who finishes top five at a race 430 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,360 be tested? If it's a, if it's a 431 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:55,200 championship or it's like a major, like even like a local 432 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,040 championship, Yeah, they they. SATF test. 433 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,760 Yeah, absolutely. I think so. 434 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:03,600 Should like local associations test like like PAUSATF or? 435 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,080 So not feasible. It's not feasible. 436 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,160 It's not. Feasible, but I I mean but like 437 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,760 should. We're talking pie in the sky 438 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,920 kind of a thing. If running made money, yes, but 439 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:14,840 it doesn't. So I think at least at a 440 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,760 national level, I think it's a different question. 441 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,040 So. I'm sorry, we need to move on. 442 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,440 I let me, I know, let me go in a different. 443 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,000 Direction, I have one other question. 444 00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:29,520 I've got one other question about this, and it is that 445 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:33,520 second question. It's do things like what if, 446 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,440 what has happened recently? But this isn't new. 447 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,000 This is not just one story. This has happened a lot, a lot 448 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,600 of American athletes. Does that ruin the sport for you 449 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:46,240 and your enjoyment of it? I like watching human beings 450 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,000 doing incredible things. They're doing incredible things. 451 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:51,920 It's still fun to watch. Does it take away from it? 452 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,840 Yes. But it doesn't ruin the sport 453 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,480 for me. I'm not going to not watch 454 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Boston or Chicago because someone doped at Chicago. 455 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,480 It doesn't ruin the local sport, it ruins the international 456 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:05,880 competitions which I have started to not care about. 457 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:10,800 What it makes really cool for me though, is the local right, the 458 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,360 local, the US like and I'm. Even though they're even though 459 00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:16,240 they're cheating too, Yeah. Even though they're cheating and 460 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,200 not being tested. Yeah, like the Masters. 461 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,240 National championships the the local like USACF stuff. 462 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,080 Like for example, I ran the Bauerman 5K yesterday and that 463 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,040 was a really cool experience outside of the fact that I 464 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,760 learned that I am not the pass this stroller runner out 465 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,560 stroller dad out there as I got crushed by a incredible 466 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,160 Bauerman. Track club athlete, fast guys. 467 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,120 Yeah, Bauerman Shack lab athlete was like, yeah, I only run with 468 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:40,400 the stroller once or twice a week and then just crushed me. 469 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,120 And so like very impressed. But getting to the total line 470 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,520 and watch them take off and then watch them come around, That is 471 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:48,080 what I'm I'm more passionate about. 472 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,680 I don't really care about the international stuff anymore 473 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,080 because I don't believe it's clean. 474 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,120 And I think to be at that level, you can't be clean. 475 00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:57,600 And the people I've talked to that eventually given up going, 476 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,160 I can't compete with these people because I know they're 477 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,120 doping. I've seen them in the locker 478 00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:05,800 rooms or what have you at like these international competitions 479 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,440 like this makes us dirty. So I want to encourage people to 480 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,560 focus more locally because that's where I am and going, you 481 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:12,960 know, what's the local scene like? 482 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,200 What's that like? And it's just it, it creates 483 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,760 more of a community for me. So it's it's been a positive 484 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,200 thing in my opinion. So question, you really think in 485 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:22,960 order to be at that level you have to do? 486 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,120 I think to really we compete for a top three spot. 487 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:27,960 I think for majority of people you think the. 488 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:31,560 Fisher's doping double medalist at the Olympics and yard and a 489 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,080 Goose and Cole Hager and those guys. 490 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,760 We got a lot of really good Americans right now. 491 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,560 So that statement goes pretty far. 492 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,040 I. I, I hope not, you just said in 493 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,440 order to be there. I really hope. 494 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,360 Not I. Really hope not. 495 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:47,880 And I really hope that they're the exception. 496 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,400 I really hope they probably don't listen to the podcasts. 497 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,080 If they do they can comment and call me out. 498 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,320 But I really hope they are are. Amazing. 499 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,360 I. Don't know big fans. 500 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,600 They're amazing. They're awesome on the street, 501 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,000 yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 502 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,160 I would say for me, it hasn't ruined the sport for me. 503 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,360 What most people probably don't know about me is that my 504 00:25:08,360 --> 00:25:10,840 favorite, absolute favorite sport to follow is college 505 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,400 football, and there's been a lot of changes in college football. 506 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,240 I thought it was wrestling. I do love wrestling too, but 507 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,240 like, when it comes to watching a sport and like the Badgers, I 508 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,280 just love it. But see, I even got my like, 509 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:24,800 koozie, my Badger, koozie, Bucky and I hanging out. 510 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:30,000 But there's been a lot of changes in college football with 511 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,160 the transfer portal players moving all around. 512 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,440 A lot of things I've loved about college football is different 513 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,600 right now as they try to get their footing and figure out how 514 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,320 they're going to do all of this. But when I'm watching college 515 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,960 football and I get to go there with my boys and like, watch it, 516 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,280 I love it. And it's like, no, I don't have 517 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,120 as big of a connection to you because I didn't watch. 518 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:50,960 You get recruited and then you've been here for three 519 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,240 years. It's like to each of those 520 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,240 players get to know in quotations because I'm just 521 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,680 watching either in the stands, like on a screen. 522 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,440 Yeah, but you fall in love with certain. 523 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:03,640 Players, but I still I still love the game like I still love 524 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,080 the sport and the same for me for running right now where I'm 525 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,560 going to turn on the 16-15 hundred or whatever and just 526 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,160 watch them go at it. It's super fun. 527 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,280 I'm going to, I'm going to watch McLaughlin, like crush the 528 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:15,680 hurdles. Like there's just so much that 529 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,360 I'm. In Sydney, I don't know, She's 530 00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:22,880 doing unprecedented things. Well, you think about that, 531 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,960 Matt. I let me take this a different 532 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,000 direction. So I kind of mentioned this 533 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,480 earlier, but I, I did my fellowship at Kaiser Sunset, 534 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240 which is like the hub of Kaiser Southern California. 535 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,520 I treated a lot of different people and I treated a lot of 536 00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,680 different people that had been doing things in the 70s and 80s. 537 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,080 And we're dealing with the consequences in ways that we as 538 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,040 a medical team did not know what to do with. 539 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:53,040 A lot of those people were bodybuilders that were juiced on 540 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,160 all kinds of things. And the stuff that we saw their 541 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,680 bodies go through We've we've, we don't have diagnosis to 542 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,560 describe what was happening. And it was like cutting edge and 543 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,840 it was horrible, horrible. I saw the same thing with a lot 544 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,320 of old track and field athletes of a variety of different areas 545 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,040 that would still living in Southern California, not really 546 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,400 running anymore, but dealing with some significant things 547 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,520 that the only way we could make connections going well. 548 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:20,120 I guess that makes sense. If you take EPO for extensive 549 00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:23,320 pout periods that you would start to see cancerous in these 550 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:25,840 horrible changes and a lot of them didn't live long and they 551 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:29,760 when we saw them, they would have very horrible ends of life. 552 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,200 So for those anybody that happens to listen to this that I 553 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,120 don't know if elite runners listen to this. 554 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:37,840 If you are thinking about this stuff, I really encourage you 555 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:42,400 please think long term because if you abuse this stuff, the end 556 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,680 of life results. I I would not wish that on. 557 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,440 Anywhere like also on the other side of things, and one of the 558 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,640 reasons why I am not lifetime is because they'll answer for their 559 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:57,200 actions sooner or later as well, so. 560 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,120 That's kind of why I'd like the lifetime thing is hopefully it 561 00:28:01,120 --> 00:28:04,360 scares enough people to like maybe consider not doing it, but 562 00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:07,840 I know people are always going to do stuff, but I just please 563 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,560 don't do that. It's really horrible. 564 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,360 All right, let's move us forward. 565 00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:12,880 And now we're going to talk about something happier. 566 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,880 We're going to talk about shoes, which is much less 567 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,480 consequential, right? So here's the next buy or sell. 568 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,840 Buy or sell. The market needs to lower the 569 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:27,000 average stack height of shoes in this moment, no? 570 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,000 So you sell that. What's the average stack of 571 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,680 shoes 40? I'd say we're looking at 36. 572 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,560 That's fine because it's an average. 573 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,240 It's not all of them, right? Like, so yeah, no, I'm a sell. 574 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:42,880 There's enough options, high and low. 575 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,280 The average is fine. They don't need to lower 576 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:46,880 everything. Sorry, that's my overly 577 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:48,600 simplistic answer to that. That's. 578 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,720 Yeah, I'm. I'm I'm, I'm actually totally on 579 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,960 the same on the same thing that I'm a sell that I think there's 580 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,480 some really cool options. And I think originally I was one 581 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,120 of those people, whoa, be careful. 582 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:02,400 Now I'm like, this is you know what? 583 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,760 This is a really cool age to be in the running shoe. 584 00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,800 Yeah, let them cook. It's it's very cool. 585 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,800 I had shoes of all different stack heights. 586 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,920 These different ways that I. Make shoes different. 587 00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:15,720 Yeah, I really enjoy. I don't think one type of 588 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,320 footwear is better than the other one. 589 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,560 I think they're just different options now that are going to 590 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,000 work for different people. And I think there's still 591 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:23,600 minimal shoes out there. They're going to work really, 592 00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,240 really well for some people. There's these super stack height 593 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,640 shoes that are going to work amazing for other the people 594 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,480 that they may not have been able to run otherwise. 595 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:36,400 And so I'm all for just the same way for movement variability. 596 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,440 People move in different ways and that's OK, right? 597 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,560 And having some options is not a bad thing. 598 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,680 So so. Yeah, I'm, I'm also going to 599 00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,400 sell, but maybe for a slightly different reason. 600 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,960 I can remember, there's that one study and I can't quote who it 601 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,120 was, so if you all remember, please let me know. 602 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,040 But it kind of looked at minimalist shoes, maximalist 603 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,160 shoes, and then those tweeter tweener shoes. 604 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,840 And they used like the Nike Free as an example, and the Canvara. 605 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,080 And they were not really a cushion shoe and not a 606 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:10,400 minimalist shoe. And people's bodies didn't 607 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,440 really know how to respond. So those were kind of like the 608 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,360 dangerous Zone. And so I think the fact that 609 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,720 we're in a more extreme probably isn't the worst thing in the 610 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,040 world. Now, Matt, you were talking 611 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,400 about variability though. And there's actually another 612 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,400 buyer sell that I'm going to bring up right now because I 613 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,440 think it adds to this conversation. 614 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:33,240 And also I have a slightly different take on it. 615 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,520 So for the previous one, just to be clear, I sell that. 616 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,280 I don't think we need to lower the average stack height. 617 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,720 The next question is higher sell. 618 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:47,320 There is less variety in the market now than over the past 619 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,800 few years due to the high stack shoes. 620 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,760 Total sell on that. I think there's tons of variety 621 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,040 now and it's and it's actually pretty solid. 622 00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,400 Maybe not as much variety in the lower stack regions, but like 623 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,640 there's a lot of different shoes out there. 624 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,560 So I'm a sell on that. What about you, David? 625 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,680 There's there's no lightweight stability racing shoe. 626 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:11,240 You would bring that up that's. Fair. 627 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:14,560 Yeah. And that's my own personal like 628 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,640 grumping gripe about that. But there's a lot of a very a 629 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,560 large variety of things that still we, I would, I would argue 630 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:22,760 with you on that. No, it's true. 631 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:24,880 And I will, I will die on that hill. 632 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,840 But having just shot the best stable neutral shoes, stable 633 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,600 neutral racing shoes, there is still stuff that like almost 634 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:34,800 qualifies that. And I think like looking at the 635 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,080 racing stuff, there's, there's a good amount of variety there, a 636 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,280 good amount of training stuff, plenty of training shoes that 637 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,200 are stable, more stable neutral stuff than there was before, 638 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,160 right? But we didn't have a lot of 639 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,080 stable neutral stuff, You know, 10-15 years ago, it was pretty 640 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,320 extreme and pretty similar with how things were done, narrow 641 00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,680 midfoot, blah, blah, blah. I I think there's a lot more 642 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:56,640 variety. Do I still want a stability 643 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:58,280 super racing shoe? Absolutely. 644 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,000 But. I I think, I think that the 645 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:03,880 variety is lower than a few years ago. 646 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,360 And the, the reason why I say that is a little bit of recency 647 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,560 bias because I was writing, like I said, the experience flow to 648 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:15,120 review and we got to the point where it said similar shoes And 649 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,240 I was like, I can't think of any that are like this right now. 650 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,560 And that could have just been an inability for me to think about 651 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,160 it. But like the closest I could 652 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:28,320 think of was the topo phantom 4. But what the flow has is kind of 653 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,160 it's 32 and 28 for stack. It's got a really flexible 4 654 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:38,120 foot, got a mildly soft foam, a good amount of flexibility. 655 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,560 And I just think that that's rare in comparison to even like 656 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,760 3 or 4 years ago. There was a lot more like that. 657 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,280 Like even I was trying to think like maybe the cumulus or 658 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,960 something, but the cumulus even that 4 foot is stiffer. 659 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,200 So that doesn't really work. And there was a lot of a lot of 660 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,640 shoes that just have lost 4 foot flexibility because everything 661 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,120 is so stacked. So yes, I agree there's variety, 662 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:03,320 but it's all variety within maximalism. 663 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,720 So you're looking at plated versus not plated. 664 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,440 You're looking at like rocker. Wave Rider 29 is pretty flexible 665 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:10,880 upfront. Too Yeah, but they're they're 666 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:14,320 not they're not like this shoe. I guess they're they were, 667 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,720 they're higher drop, they're even feel way more cushion than 668 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:18,640 that because you've got like 39 in the heel. 669 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,720 Yeah, it's not like the like. So I think that in some ways 670 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,120 we've lost it because it, it's almost like everything is a Hoka 671 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,640 now. I'm putting that in quotations 672 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:31,920 because when Hoka came out, it was like, whoa, this is 673 00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,920 different. And now everyone is making a 674 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,520 very high stacked kind of wider base. 675 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,960 And then because it's higher stacked and wider base, you 676 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,360 usually have a little bit stiffer. 677 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,400 So it has a rocker platform. Then they may add variety 678 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,400 through stiffening agents and other things like that type of 679 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,800 foam, But I think the variety is within a smaller package than 680 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,760 what it used to be, where you'd have a lot in kind of the 20s, a 681 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,200 lot in the 30s, and then you would get like a couple up in 682 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,040 the 40s. But that's my take. 683 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,000 So I buy that there's less variety. 684 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,080 Dave is a tiebreaker. I'm a sell. 685 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:11,239 Yeah, I'm a sell. You know, I think it's, are 686 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,760 there more high stack options? Of course there are, right? 687 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:15,920 Like anytime something's in, people are going to ride the 688 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,120 crazy train a little bit and they're just going to go along 689 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,360 with it. Not that it's like actually 690 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,040 crazy, but like that's like what's in and people are going 691 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,960 to roll with it. So there's going to be more 692 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:29,199 options of that in general. But I think the variety is still 693 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:32,080 there, right? You still have your Hyperions, 694 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,440 you still have your Rebels, you still have your wave riders. 695 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,400 Like the highs drop your Ghosts. What's that? 696 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,840 We don't have, we don't have our Hyperion GTS anymore. 697 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,159 No, we. So sad meant so sad. 698 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,000 Do we have final confirmation on that? 699 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,800 I mean, I feel like I've only ever seen that across like, 700 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,960 Internet trolls. I haven't seen like a actual 701 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:54,040 source. Tell me. 702 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,040 They I thought they told us that Hyperion GTS is going to get 703 00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:59,960 discontinued. Yeah. 704 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:02,160 Oh, OK, OK, OK, cool. Sorry. 705 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,120 But like there's other things out there, right? 706 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,680 Like you're, I don't know, there's the variety is still 707 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,920 there. Maybe it's not like ginormous, 708 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:11,800 but there's enough options in each category. 709 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:13,480 I think someone can find something. 710 00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,360 So I'm gonna sell. Let me say this, I think that 711 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:18,960 there's room for companies to fill right now. 712 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,520 I think there are spaces that companies aren't putting shoes 713 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:27,760 out in and that doesn't mean that what it's offered isn't 714 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:29,640 feeling a lot of needs. And I would say like from a 715 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,200 patient centered perspective, there's a ton more options right 716 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,680 now to help with issues that people are having. 717 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,360 Again, is that final additive part of the rehabilitation? 718 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,080 So I do find that good. All right, so let's move on to 719 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,600 our next question. Buy or sell. 2024 was a better 720 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:50,600 shoe year than 2025 S just a prime y'all to prime y'all. 721 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,320 I looked up our top picks from all four of us, us three and 722 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,720 then Andrea. What are top picks from were 723 00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:02,000 from last year and Matt, you had like the Mach X2, the ideas 724 00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:06,240 aggravic speed. You had the brooks blister and 725 00:36:06,240 --> 00:36:12,800 Max ASICS GT2000 super blast 2. This was last year, the Paris 726 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,400 version of all of the meta speed series from ASICS came out. 727 00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,120 We had Let me see, Wave a Belly and Flash 2 came out. 728 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:27,360 Andrea loved that one. Puma, Magmax, Endorphin speed 729 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:31,560 4C, LO X1, Cloud, Boom Strike from ON. 730 00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:37,080 There's a lot of different shoes that came out last year, So what 731 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,400 do you all think? So. 2025 is better. 2025 is not 732 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,320 finished, my guy. We still got like we've got some 733 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,840 bangers for like the amount of time that we have. 734 00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,880 We have on cloud ultra pro for the trail easy trail shoe of the 735 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:58,080 year right now for me, meta speed edge Tokyo, yeah, meta 736 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,160 speed edge Tokyo. It's like true. 737 00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:03,600 I I was tripping it up but blew me away 2 shoes right there, 738 00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:07,400 massive blew me away. I think the daily trainers are a 739 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,920 little closer. I really like on cloud surfer 740 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,040 Max for daily miles. I really like the Saucony ride 741 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:18,800 18 actually GT 2014. I actually did really like it 742 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:20,880 today. I do think the medial wedge 743 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,240 yeah. I hope they don't go too much 744 00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:26,560 further 'cause I'm I'm scuffing it a little bit I think when I 745 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:29,280 get tired, but I think I do still like it. 746 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,760 I still like it enough to where I think I'll probably still be 747 00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,520 logging a lot of miles on it. I think it's still been a good 748 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:37,880 year. You know, you have Rebel 5, you 749 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,040 have a couple of awesome options out there and a couple things 750 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,920 coming down the line, right, like Brooks Iperian Max 3 and 751 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:46,400 like other shoes. And we're in July. 752 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:48,800 Like I said, 2025 is not done my guy. 753 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,960 Like to try and say 2024 is just better. 754 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,280 Like I'd I think that'd be like looking at some nostalgic coke 755 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,640 mania and being like that was the event that's better than all 756 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:00,800 other events that come after it. And I don't think that's fair. 757 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,000 Well, just because I know you're kind of like coming at me, I 758 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:09,360 also am selling this idea. I don't know what you want from 759 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,720 me, but I've been living in that trainer world and I think that 760 00:38:14,720 --> 00:38:16,840 this year there have been trainers that have come out that 761 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,760 I've just exceeded last year. So even when I look in line, 762 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,880 like I think that the new ride from Saucony UPS, last year's 763 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:28,080 ride from Saucony, if you look at the Clifton, they actually 764 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,920 changed quite a bit between the nine and the 10. 765 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,440 And like the 10 is this kind of light, airy kind of feel to it 766 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,760 where is like the last one was felt a little bit like more 767 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,000 robust and a little bit more poppy. 768 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,800 And I actually love the nine. I'm getting more miles on the 10 769 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:41,920 right now. I guess I could have talked 770 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,600 about that for the infer testing segment. 771 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,240 And then the, you know, ASICS Meta Speed Tokyo series. 772 00:38:49,240 --> 00:38:51,360 I've only done like around the block in them, but they're 773 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,280 really fun to run in. They've only advanced that line. 774 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,080 So we've got some racing stuff there. 775 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,200 I do think that there are some areas where it's closer to or I 776 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,760 should just keep going. Rebel version five I've loved. 777 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,240 There's been other trainers, which is the space I've been 778 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,400 living in like the Phantom 4 and then I'm running in this 779 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,400 experience flow to those have all been really good I think for 780 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,800 this year and added some variety to the options. 781 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,680 It's funny you brought up the, Oh my gosh, what is it called? 782 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,440 Cloud Surfer Max. I can't stand that shoe. 783 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,640 I can't even wear it to work. I tried to wear it to work and 784 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:30,040 I'm like, this is the last day I'm wearing it. 785 00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:34,200 It's like too too stiff and too firm and like the upper is 786 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,120 weird, like pushed on my heel, awkward the toe. 787 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,480 Box like option for the firm boys. 788 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,640 Oh, it's just not good. It's just really and you also 789 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:49,040 can't say that, but the toe box like tapers so much the toe box 790 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,360 tapers. I think that shoe has left a lot 791 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,240 to be desired. There is a lot that they could 792 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:58,160 do with the cloud surfer line because the cloud surfer like 793 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:03,360 the original one with the first like phased kind of pods or 794 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,960 clouds. Sorry, that was a phenomenal 795 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,400 shoe. It gave a whole new feel to on 796 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,040 and they could have like. Built that up and they could 797 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:13,960 have done something cool with it, but they just want to 798 00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:17,480 totally they just kind of move the cloud eclipse into this line 799 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,760 and I think that it doesn't match what the line is up to. 800 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:27,440 But that anyway I I am also with you a cell because I think 2025 801 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,040 has had a lot of really good shoes. 802 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,280 Matt, what do you think? I think I'll take over this the 803 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,560 the trainer stability category that I do think overall so far 804 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,280 it's actually itself. We've had some really great 805 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:42,920 shoes, although we've lost like some stable neutral racing 806 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,840 options, right? So the the Endorphin Elite 2 is 807 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,800 no longer stable. The CLL X1 version 2 is no 808 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,840 longer stable. So we kind of lost two of those. 809 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,440 There's been some other like phenomenal training shoes that 810 00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,440 have been great both with stability and trainers. 811 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:00,840 I think they're they're doing really, really, really good. 812 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,440 Rocket X3, Perfect. Yeah, Rocket X3. 813 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,640 I just did the racing yesterday. It's not maybe not as light and 814 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,120 fast as we want, but from the stable neutral category, 815 00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:13,280 Phenomenal drops of weight, fixes the the upper issue and 816 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,040 really really good. Just still not durable at all. 817 00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:22,000 Also, I feel like Hoka silently introduced an 8mm drop to some 818 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,320 of that like you. Know whole line yeah, yeah, they 819 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:24,880 did. They did. 820 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:26,560 Yeah, and it's 1. Of those, 1000% did. 821 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,680 Where I think we had a conversation on a podcast a 822 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,400 couple weeks ago, we're like, do we need to list specific stack 823 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,320 measures? Maybe this is just when you 2 824 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,160 are on, or is it more about like low, middle, high stack? 825 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,440 And I think that there's something to that because the 826 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,160 running experience doesn't really change if the drop is six 827 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:46,360 to seven at a static measurement of drop, you know, So I, I think 828 00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,560 that there's something to that. But with having the X3 and I 829 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,120 haven't done a lot of running in it, I could not run in the 830 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,160 Rocket X2 because it felt like a negative drop. 831 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,920 This one doesn't anymore because they brought me out of that kind 832 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,160 of dropped position because of how compliant it is in the heel. 833 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,920 So. Yeah, so massive, massive update 834 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,280 improvement. Just need that durability 835 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,280 better. But just the training shoes that 836 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,040 are coming out I think are better or at least more 837 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,360 exciting. And then my big one, like the 838 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,360 new Keano is just great. It's like my favorite. 839 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:17,000 Shoe. Yeah, try. 840 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:17,800 Try it again. Yeah. 841 00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:19,920 What is it? Sorry, Peter. 842 00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,640 Wait, no, I said it. You said Keano. 843 00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,000 I said Keano. It's not Keano either. 844 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:29,240 It's Keano. Keano. 845 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:30,720 No. Keano. 846 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,400 How do you say it? Kaya Kaya. 847 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,400 That was not on the thing that Peter sent me. 848 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,320 Kayano, the Kayano, Kayano. Kayano. 849 00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,440 Kayano, Kayano. All right, that's too close to 850 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,680 Keano. Peter, help me. 851 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:50,760 All right, we're going to move on. 852 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:56,080 So the next yeah, go ahead. Solomon she is this year. 853 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,200 Heck. Yeah, they have stepped. 854 00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,840 Up a. Huge step up. 855 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,240 They've entered. They have entered the ring for 856 00:43:03,240 --> 00:43:05,800 sure. OK, let's move on to our next 857 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,440 one. This is buy or sell. 858 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,080 People are not running slow enough. 859 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,400 What I love about this question before this prompt is because 860 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:19,520 our social media manager, he's going to hate that I'm saying 861 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,760 his name on air, but his name is Bach Pham. 862 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,280 Incredibly wonderful person to work with. 863 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,640 Hilarious. He always just tells us all the 864 00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:30,720 time we're running too fast. Like everyone needs to be 865 00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:33,400 running 12 minute miles. This is my words, not his, but 866 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,400 his sentiment. Everyone needs to be running 12 867 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:37,920 minute miles, 14 minute miles. Like y'all are running too fast. 868 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,400 That's why you get hurt. Follow my plan. 869 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:40,720 Run slow. You're never going to get hurt. 870 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:42,800 That's it's kind of the ongoing joke. 871 00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,760 So he is the one who put this prompt in here and that's the 872 00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,360 space that is coming from. But there's also some legitimacy 873 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:52,240 to this conversation. Buy yourself. 874 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,880 Yeah, and the actual question. So people are not running slow 875 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,280 enough, correct? Bye. 876 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,080 Yeah, I buy it too. Because I think when you look at 877 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,720 more the novice population, especially now, I think running 878 00:44:06,720 --> 00:44:09,400 is starting to boom again. I think it's like this might be 879 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,640 the most I've ever seen people running in my lifetime. 880 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,640 And I feel like this might be comparable to kind of like the 881 00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:18,360 big boom in like that was 80s, nineties when like Nike was 882 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:20,840 coming around. And some of those shoes are 883 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:26,360 coming, but a lot of people don't really know how to control 884 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:31,000 their paces very well. I like have a couple of examples 885 00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,920 from people that I've known, you know, where they're like, Oh 886 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:36,280 yeah, like I just went for a run and I PR Ed in this distance. 887 00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,840 And you hear that pretty frequently, you know, especially 888 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,080 people amongst people who are like not like very seasoned at 889 00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:45,520 things. And then I would also say as you 890 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:49,280 get faster and faster, a lot of people aren't running slow 891 00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:53,000 enough to truly be easy either. Like they can run 6 minute pace. 892 00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:56,720 So they are and they feel like an area doing it. 893 00:44:56,720 --> 00:44:59,640 They don't want to run 730 to 8 minute pace. 894 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:01,720 You know what I mean? Like because it just feels like 895 00:45:01,720 --> 00:45:04,720 it takes forever. So I think in both ends of the 896 00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:07,920 spectrum, you have a lot of people that just aren't slowing 897 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,200 down and really running easy. So I'm a, I'm a buy on that. 898 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:14,680 I, I think, I mean, there's still a handful of people that 899 00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:18,280 are, you know, but I think there's enough people to where I 900 00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:20,440 would probably say most people should probably be running 901 00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,320 slower. Yeah, I buy as well. 902 00:45:22,320 --> 00:45:26,000 I think it depends on who you're looking at, what kind of group, 903 00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,040 but when you're looking at what most runners are, which is 904 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,880 recreational runners. I, and this is an anecdote just 905 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,560 from clinic work, because I still run the running clinic 906 00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,000 with students And the number of times we have a runner who comes 907 00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,840 in, who is not a cross country runner on the team at the 908 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,400 university. You know, we asked them how long 909 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,960 they've been running, what kind of pacing they do. 910 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:48,760 And then just kind of ask them, how do you usually feel at the 911 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:50,920 end of your run? So that's a question that we may 912 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,560 ask them. And they always say, I'm wiped, 913 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:57,040 just feeling so tired. And even if we don't talk about 914 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:01,240 like heart rate zones and all that, like complicated stuff in 915 00:46:01,240 --> 00:46:03,400 running, we shouldn't feel wiped all the time. 916 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,160 And especially when you're brand new, like the number of times 917 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,360 where I take people and move them from like they just, they 918 00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:12,600 just started running like 3 weeks ago and they're always 919 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,800 going on three to four mile runs and they've never done anything 920 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,520 like this before. I bring them back down to a run 921 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520 walk and we talk about it and then it makes sense for them and 922 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,800 then they get there and they learn through a run walk how you 923 00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,840 should feel at the end of a, of a run. 924 00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:31,200 And I also, this is like banging on a little bit of a drum for me 925 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,360 or a little bit of a soapbox. I think that's the value of time 926 00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,960 based running instead of mileage based running. 927 00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:40,960 Because if you start to think I need to run 5 miles today, but 928 00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:44,280 you have to slow your pace down, that does increase your time 929 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:45,960 that you're going to have to be out there. 930 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,000 And I think it's more important to give your body the stimulus 931 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,800 that it needs versus reaching a certain number of miles. 932 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,080 At some point, your mileage and your time is going to come 933 00:46:57,080 --> 00:46:59,640 together because they're you're going to like estimate that 934 00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,960 correctly. But in the beginning, we don't 935 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,960 really know how hard running is for us until we've had a lot of 936 00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:05,880 training. So it's like, I've got 30 937 00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,880 minutes to run today, so I'm going to do my training based on 938 00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,640 these 30 minutes. So yeah, I think most people 939 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,280 probably could also slow down. Matt, what do you think? 940 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,320 I have I have another buy sell after client goes sure. 941 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:21,480 I'm just going to be controversial and Nathan IA 942 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,680 1000% agree with you having done the same thing in clinic all the 943 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:28,800 time. I'm going to do a cell though, 944 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,200 because I think across the board saying that people just need to 945 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,120 slow down isn't necessarily correct, but you need to be able 946 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,840 to periodize your training, meaning that your easy runs, 947 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,400 your main runs need to be a little bit slower. 948 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,360 But if in your, you should have some kind of faster, like you 949 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,440 should have variety in your week or your two week cycle, you 950 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:53,040 should not have the same type of run at the same pace on the same 951 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:55,200 like you shouldn't be all the same. 952 00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,800 That's that's I understand why that some people might do that, 953 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,400 but I'd encourage you not to do that. 954 00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,960 I would encourage you have one run that's faster that you go 955 00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:06,640 faster one day and one run that you run slower. 956 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,600 But to say you need to run slower all the time, I would say 957 00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,840 the better thing to say is you need more variety in your 958 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:14,720 training. Nathan, you OK? 959 00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:20,040 It does not say people are need to run slower all the time. 960 00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,920 It says people are not run running slow enough. 961 00:48:24,560 --> 00:48:25,960 No, it's a really good point you bring up. 962 00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,440 I'm. Still sticky with that. 963 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,440 No, I, I like that's a that's a really good part of the. 964 00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,800 Conversation. Yeah, I would say it's not that 965 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,160 people aren't rolling, running slowed off. 966 00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:41,200 They don't have enough variety in their weekly or biweekly 967 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,000 paces. And the reason I say biweekly is 968 00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,080 there are some people that are transitioning to two week 969 00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,200 training, A2 week training like phases where instead of just 970 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,160 trying to pack it everything the week, it's spread out a little 971 00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,720 bit more, but just slowing down for the sake of slowing down. 972 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,640 But there are some people that definitely need to do that, like 973 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,880 newer runners that don't know how to control the pace for 974 00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:01,760 sure. But I think you need more 975 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,360 variation in your training schedule and a greater variety 976 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,840 of paces. Not necessarily slower. 977 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,000 Some of the days definitely need to be slower, but if you run 978 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,720 things well enough, you're not going to be able to run faster 979 00:49:13,720 --> 00:49:15,840 on your easy runs. And I tell you that if you want 980 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,080 to run slower, go push the stroller. 981 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,160 Good luck running faster than like 8-9 minute pace on easy 982 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,160 runs because that's where I am. What was your next question? 983 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,840 David that you said that, yeah, because it was a pivot off of 984 00:49:25,840 --> 00:49:29,680 that because when I hear this question, I assume easy days, 985 00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,080 right. And if they are training, I kind 986 00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:33,760 of brought that up with like the faster crowd. 987 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:36,160 A lot of times they should probably slow down too because 988 00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,960 they got to go fast on another day, right. 989 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,440 You want to there's a point and a goal to everyday. 990 00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:43,360 If you are training for something and you are 991 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:48,280 periodizing and doing things. My my next one is people are not 992 00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:53,000 running fast enough on their workout days or hitting their 993 00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:55,080 race goals. Yeah, he did. 994 00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:57,840 I have to think about that, that side of the coin. 995 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,320 Should I go? Yeah, you go first. 996 00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,080 I think I'm actually a buy. And the reason why is like when 997 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,800 we look at a lot of marathon training or half marathon 998 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,000 training, a lot of people are working out in super shoes. 999 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,680 They're tuning the paces, they're getting used to doing 1000 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,600 things, but they're not, they're not pushing that needle to 1001 00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,440 actually go faster, right? Where it's like in order to go 1002 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,520 faster, you have to run faster, right? 1003 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:23,720 Like you do got to train that stimulus at some point or 1004 00:50:23,720 --> 00:50:25,200 another. And I think I'm not a lot of 1005 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,240 people aren't pushing that needle enough when you're 1006 00:50:28,240 --> 00:50:32,040 supposed to or they are and they're not going slow enough on 1007 00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:34,480 those other days and they're just not recovering right? 1008 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,880 Like, and then you kind of get this double edged sword where 1009 00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,160 they kind of feed off each other. 1010 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:41,920 But I do think in most situations, people are like, let 1011 00:50:41,920 --> 00:50:46,760 me just get 2 race pace and feel OK there, but they don't really 1012 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:50,320 go faster than that. But the honest truth is a large 1013 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:53,120 majority of the races are not going to be perfectly paced, 1014 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:54,400 right? You're going to go out hot, 1015 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,600 you're going to go slow, you're going to have some surges. 1016 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,200 You have to be able to run a couple of different paces even 1017 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,920 within a fast pace. Like you have to be able to run 1018 00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:08,040 ±10 seconds of any given pace at any given time in a race and be 1019 00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,880 able to switch it up. And I would even say that on 1020 00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:15,480 like a track 5K where that's usually still pretty like people 1021 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:18,640 pace that out pretty well, but like there is going to be some 1022 00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:20,240 pretty large swings. It just happens. 1023 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,760 Someone doesn't want the lead. It slows down, there's a little 1024 00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:25,880 bit, then everyone runs like a 72. 1025 00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:26,680 And then I'm like, what the heck? 1026 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,160 And then someone goes and runs a 69, right? 1027 00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,400 And then just like things can go crazy very quickly. 1028 00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,720 I'm going to, so I'm going to buy as well. 1029 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:38,160 Just when I'm thinking about some of the runners that I've 1030 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:41,040 worked with before, I've like worked with them. 1031 00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,520 A lot of their speed days were like just running goal race pace 1032 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,680 for like 1/2 marathon or a marathon. 1033 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:50,160 So they won't actually do efforts that change the system 1034 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:52,960 in a way that you actually have to run significantly faster than 1035 00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:55,240 race pace, your anticipated race pace. 1036 00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,400 So their speed days are just slow and then they'll just try 1037 00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,480 to run their easy days at race pace too. 1038 00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:04,040 And so it ends up being like this, like you said, easy days 1039 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,520 too fast, fast days too slow, and instead should be slower on 1040 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,920 those days and then really kick it on those other ones depending 1041 00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:13,360 on what the work is. You start or you don't hit your 1042 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:16,680 splits right, like your fast days aren't fast enough because 1043 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:18,000 you're not recovering right Right. 1044 00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,440 And now you're just frustrated, which is a lot of people too. 1045 00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,680 Yep, I'm. I'm going to agree by I'm going 1046 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,560 to go back to what I said that a variety is really important. 1047 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:27,640 I think, Nathan, that's really key. 1048 00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:29,880 There's a lot of people that will work out at basically the 1049 00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,560 same pace all and David said this is the same thing. 1050 00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:33,960 They're just shooting for race pace. 1051 00:52:34,280 --> 00:52:36,600 And that's not how your body works. 1052 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,840 It's like there are different physiological systems that you 1053 00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,840 need to work. And honestly, one of the ones 1054 00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,120 that I feel like a lot of people don't hit, and maybe that's 1055 00:52:43,120 --> 00:52:46,360 because of the population I work with is getting down into that 1056 00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:51,640 like those fast, like 152 hundreds, really building the 1057 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,960 ability to generate power and speed and people stick with the 1058 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,160 the higher reps And it's like you never learn to turn over. 1059 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,240 And especially from a Muscules scalable change perspective, 1060 00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:04,600 those things tend to make some significant changes. 1061 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,760 Some of the longer reps are going to there, there's 1062 00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,920 musculoskeletal change, but a lot more of that's going to be 1063 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,000 affecting your cardiovascular system and other components. 1064 00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:15,600 But like getting back to generating like short, steep 1065 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,680 hill repeats, real short fast, you need to do it all the time. 1066 00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,520 But I think it is really important to have as part of a 1067 00:53:22,240 --> 00:53:25,960 really like safely a part of not just a good training program, 1068 00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:29,680 but also good like aging wall training program to go, you know 1069 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:31,680 what, here's the things that change as we get older. 1070 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:35,120 I just need to make sure I I have this and don't lose it 1071 00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:37,160 because then when I do need it, I'll get injured. 1072 00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:39,960 It's like, how do I like keep this component there? 1073 00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:42,800 So I'm again, the right variety, I think is key. 1074 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:47,520 But I think a lot of rudders don't touch that high like that 1075 00:53:47,520 --> 00:53:50,160 Sprint like going, how do I turn over? 1076 00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,440 The only thing I would say is that I think effort is more 1077 00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:55,840 important than pace. I think people don't know how to 1078 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:59,360 really gauge effort. Like what's really hard versus, 1079 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,760 oh, let me look at my watch. I'm wearing my super shoe and I 1080 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,160 hit my pace. So I'm just going to go like 1081 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,600 cruise this in to go. How do I grind? 1082 00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,720 And I think there's plenty of people out there, but learning 1083 00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:10,760 different efforts I think is more important than different 1084 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,040 paces. Because a watch can be wrong, 1085 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,480 but learning what you feel is really important can be more 1086 00:54:17,480 --> 00:54:19,720 accurate. Not on a track. 1087 00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:24,600 Fair, unless the track is wrong. I'm sorry, don't say I need to 1088 00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:25,840 chill. We're going to we're going to 1089 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,560 move on to our next one, and this next one is buy or sell. 1090 00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,840 Nike has lost its edge in running innovation. 1091 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,360 I'm going to say sell. Why so? 1092 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,800 But my reason's a little bit different. 1093 00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,320 I think if you look strictly at the racing models, they're not 1094 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,280 looking into the other materials as much. 1095 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,160 They probably are, but like you see a lot of other companies 1096 00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,360 experimenting with different foams and geometries and trying 1097 00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:55,880 to be quote UN quote innovative. But you we do see Nike making a 1098 00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,480 lot of big changes in their training models, which is where 1099 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,800 they were getting a lot of Flack anyways in the previous years 1100 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,320 where people weren't really running in Nike trainers 1101 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,840 anymore. I mean, there were people 1102 00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,400 running in them. But like, I feel like when 1103 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,440 people brought up like, oh, what are good running shoes, people 1104 00:55:10,440 --> 00:55:13,720 weren't saying Nike that often just in terms of the general 1105 00:55:13,720 --> 00:55:17,400 masses, but performance, they were always on the top, right. 1106 00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:19,640 So I think they just kind of shifted their efforts a little 1107 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:23,280 bit and maybe on the racing side of things, they're still good. 1108 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,560 Maybe they're not innovating quite as aggressively in that 1109 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:27,640 category right now. I'm going to say that. 1110 00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:29,640 And someone's going to be behind the scenes like cooking up the 1111 00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:32,440 craziest thing I've ever seen. I I promise you that. 1112 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,640 But like, but I think in the training line of things, like 1113 00:55:37,640 --> 00:55:39,840 we're seeing it, they're they're playing around with Arizona and 1114 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,720 they're playing around with dual densities, tall, high, narrow, 1115 00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:44,800 wide, they're, they're playing around with stuff. 1116 00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:48,000 So I won't say that they lost their edge on innovation. 1117 00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,360 I'm going to also say sell and part of it's because no one is 1118 00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,520 save one company and I'll bring that up in a second. 1119 00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:59,280 No one has really come and done something remarkably new or 1120 00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,480 different as what Nike has done to disrupt the the market from a 1121 00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:05,920 as I'm thinking mostly about performance as well. 1122 00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:09,520 And part of the reality is that we are not Privy to what is 1123 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,280 happening because what they're working on, what's coming out 1124 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,840 now, they worked on three years ago, you know, so. 1125 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:16,480 That's why I made the lab comment. 1126 00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,320 Exactly. Like we are so not aware, like 1127 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,440 unless you're in one of those labs, what's actually being 1128 00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,600 worked on and what the innovations really are. 1129 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:28,520 So it's kind of hard to answer this question for real, but I 1130 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,280 think that there haven't been any companies that have come out 1131 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:35,320 with things that disrupted the market in the way that like the 1132 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,640 Vapor Fly did, which for me still gives the edge there. 1133 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,160 And I'd love to hear what other people think. 1134 00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:44,120 The one company that has me at pause is actually Puma from a 1135 00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:47,320 performance standpoint, because yeah, they're coming out with 1136 00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,200 news I love, like the Extended. Yeah, I haven't, I think. 1137 00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:52,840 Did you try it? Has anyone on our team tried? 1138 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:55,160 Did you get to right you and Andrea? 1139 00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,440 And for the fast Star, Yeah, yeah, I have it. 1140 00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,000 Yeah, Andrea, the newest. The newest one with the extended 1141 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:03,960 like the extended toe plate. Yeah, so much better than the 1142 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,520 extended toe plate version 2, but yes, yeah. 1143 00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:09,120 Yeah. So I think, I think that there's 1144 00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,920 just not nothing to totally dethrone them from that 1145 00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:14,560 standpoint. I'm not saying that they make 1146 00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:16,880 the best shoes or even the best racing shoes. 1147 00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:18,800 That's not my, that's not my point. 1148 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:20,160 I'm just saying innovation. Yeah. 1149 00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:25,040 Matt, what do you think? Well, I don't work for Nike. 1150 00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,960 I just happened to see things in Sherwood, Beaverton and all over 1151 00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:31,040 and I will tell you they are they're cooking. 1152 00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,400 I will say I wasn't the biggest fan of the Vapor Fly floor, but 1153 00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,240 a lot of people like that shoe, which is fair. 1154 00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,080 But I will say that's a shoe that's three years, 3 or 4 years 1155 00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,160 old, right? So what I've seen cooking I'm 1156 00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:46,920 excited for, but I'm also excited for everybody else too. 1157 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:48,880 So I don't think they've lost their edge. 1158 00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,760 I think what I'm most proud of them for is getting their 1159 00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,280 training line back. I think things are really 1160 00:57:55,280 --> 00:57:58,360 turning around. And really, yeah, there were 1161 00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,560 there, I worked in running stores in a daze where people 1162 00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:03,000 were like, well, we may not be carrying Nike trainers anymore. 1163 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,280 And I think that's turning around. 1164 00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:06,680 And they've done a really, really good job. 1165 00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:11,000 So edgewise, I don't think that they've lost it, but I do think 1166 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,720 it's a lot harder now because everybody's, a lot of people are 1167 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,960 cooking really well. So that's why, like I said, 1168 00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,800 20/25/2020, hopefully 2026. Damn. 1169 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:22,720 Good. We've been using language that 1170 00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,000 we just never use. Y'all in this? 1171 00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:27,520 In this episode, we're talking. About David's fault, he said 1172 00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:28,360 that. Slaps. 1173 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:29,760 Like that's just not how we speak. 1174 00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:31,560 But. I didn't say slap, he said slap. 1175 00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:33,840 I used it. I said slap after he said yeah. 1176 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:37,120 I said it ironically. I didn't say it, I meant like I 1177 00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,600 like literally like physically slapping. 1178 00:58:39,600 --> 00:58:41,240 Brought it up. You brought it up. 1179 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:43,960 And I just clarified it was not meaning like this is great. 1180 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,680 Like slaps. All right. 1181 00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,680 How does that mean good? I don't like it's like like 1182 00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:52,320 slap. On the base, yeah, that's how I 1183 00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:55,760 picture it. Got it like smacked across the 1184 00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,280 face. I'm like, I don't like that. 1185 00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:58,760 I don't think that's what it means. 1186 00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:04,880 OK, but we could be wrong. Anyway, we got one more. 1187 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:06,800 We've got one more for the evening. 1188 00:59:06,800 --> 00:59:09,400 I have multiple left. I'm going to leave it up. 1189 00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,160 David, you got to tell me which direction to go. 1190 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:16,280 We're either going to go shoe direction, race direction or 1191 00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:21,240 injury pain direction. Shoe direction, race direction 1192 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,440 or injury direction? Race direction because I want to 1193 00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:27,360 bring up the PED stuff again. OK. 1194 00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,960 We talked about all this stuff. We did shoe and we should do 1195 00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,080 injuries, but all right, fine. All right, so we'll that's 1196 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:34,240 boring. We might get to it. 1197 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:35,400 We talk injuries all day, every day. 1198 00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:39,960 Buy or sell, the 800 is harder than the mile. 1199 00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:47,920 Oh oh man, I regret my decision. I'll start as someone. 1200 00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:52,120 As someone to listen to me. As someone who has never raced 1201 00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:56,320 the 800 and as someone who only raced the mile in like 5th grade 1202 00:59:56,320 --> 01:00:00,400 PE or whatever, I would definitely say the 800 is 1203 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:02,720 harder. Which means I buy this one. 1204 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:07,480 But actually the reason I buy it is more like physiologically 1205 01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:10,880 than it is. Anything to do with any 1206 01:00:10,880 --> 01:00:13,320 experience? Because I, so I'm just going to 1207 01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:17,000 say it for, for that, but when you look at like systems used, 1208 01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:20,880 like the 800 puts you right on that fine line between aerobic 1209 01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,600 and anaerobic. So it's like you use everything 1210 01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:25,800 in both systems for an 800 basically. 1211 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,320 And you're like trying to teeter on the edge of like getting 1212 01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,440 through. And that's why it's just so hard 1213 01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:36,280 to like finish that second lap and like really negative split 1214 01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,360 really, really well sometimes. So especially for less 1215 01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,960 experienced runners. So I think systems wise, 1216 01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,680 physiologically 800 is harder, which is why I buy it. 1217 01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,480 Yeah, I think the 800 is physically harder. 1218 01:00:49,800 --> 01:00:52,360 I I do agree with that. I feel like it's one of the few 1219 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,640 races where you see people's bodies truly shut down or it's 1220 01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,800 not a mental lapse where it's they are literally hitting a 1221 01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:02,600 wall and they physically cannot go any faster than what they're 1222 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:03,960 going. Yep. 1223 01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,080 But I will say from a psychologic standpoint, it's 1224 01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:09,800 almost easier in that it's only two laps. 1225 01:01:09,840 --> 01:01:13,560 And if you're a experienced 800 runner, that first lap always 1226 01:01:13,560 --> 01:01:16,360 feels pretty good. You know, unless you're coming 1227 01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:18,000 off the mile. And then in that case, it's 1228 01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:27,200 awful like but, or 1500 in most cases, but you're going to come 1229 01:01:27,200 --> 01:01:29,720 around not feeling that bad. You just have to mentally 1230 01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,400 prepare for like 2 to 300 meters of just absolute carnage. 1231 01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:35,720 But like you can kind of suffer your way through that And it's 1232 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,880 over so quick that like I think the physical pain is probably 1233 01:01:38,880 --> 01:01:41,120 worse than the emotional pain in that situation. 1234 01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,040 But sometimes in the mile you get those head games of like, 1235 01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:46,160 can I actually hold this? We went out pretty hot. 1236 01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:48,520 Like you're, you're going just slow enough to where you can 1237 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:50,800 start having those thoughts, right? 1238 01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:52,280 You start hitting, hearing the splits. 1239 01:01:52,280 --> 01:01:54,400 You get 2 laps in, you're like, I got to attack this third lap, 1240 01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:55,720 but do I have anything for the 4th? 1241 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,640 Like that's where you can kind of see different mind games and 1242 01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,000 strategies and stuff. But I do think the 800 is 1243 01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:04,400 physically harder to be on that. Like you said, you're on that 1244 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:08,760 line the entire time. I mean, even if you watch an 1245 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:13,480 evenly split elite 800, let's say they go and run 142, that's 1246 01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:17,440 250. Ones like that is cooking, man. 1247 01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,320 Like that is going fast and those guys can run, you know 1248 01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:24,720 what, probably what 4746 in the open for. 1249 01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:27,320 But like 51 is still hot for them, right? 1250 01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:29,120 Like they're going out hard and then they're going to do it 1251 01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:33,160 again. And I think that last two to 300 1252 01:02:33,160 --> 01:02:36,360 from a physical standpoint is just so awful. 1253 01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:41,520 Having run both events. I'm better at the mile, but I 1254 01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:47,560 don't think it's easier. It's easier for me I guess I 1255 01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:49,720 mean, but I'm sorry I I didn't say that correctly. 800 is 1256 01:02:49,720 --> 01:02:53,680 harder. Matt, what do you got? 1257 01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:58,800 I'd I'd rather run a 1500 mile and an 8. 100, so you're buying 1258 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:03,880 it, but the 800 is harder. Yeah, nice, very cool. 1259 01:03:04,600 --> 01:03:07,800 Well, that is all the time we have for today. 1260 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:11,520 So we have other buyer sells that we can always come back to 1261 01:03:11,520 --> 01:03:14,720 in the future. I'm going to throw this one out 1262 01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:16,760 there for the audience. We are not going to discuss it 1263 01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:18,800 right now, but you can talk about it below. 1264 01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,880 But it was the use of Advil for running pain. 1265 01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:24,720 So that is your buy or sell to chat about. 1266 01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:28,080 And maybe in the future when we come back to buy or sell, we'll 1267 01:03:28,080 --> 01:03:30,320 give our thoughts. But thank you all for joining 1268 01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:32,320 and we will talk to you all next time.