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This episode of the doctors are 
running podcast. 

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check out the link in our 

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description. 
Everyone welcome to the doctors 

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running podcast where we a group
of doctors, Physical Therapy 

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chart about talk about the art 
and the science of the things 

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that we put on our feet today. 
We are very excited to have a 

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special guest. 
Richard kachinsky who is an 

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expert Footwear designer, who is
coming on as been nice to share 

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some of his time in his story 
with us. 

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Richard, thank you so much, and 
welcome to the podcast. 

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Thanks for having me, Matt, of 
course, so he Is the principal 

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and owner of the directive 
Collective, which if you don't 

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know about, you should 
definitely go follow right now 

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because there's some really cool
content that he puts out about 

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for design. 
It is a footwear design 

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consultancy and and Richard has 
over 20 years of experience in 

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the Footwear industry in a 
variety of areas. 

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And he's got sometimes behind 
that being a good runner. 

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And a 250 250 39, marathoner 
multiple time, Boston qualifier.

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And in terms of your work, 
you've worked with feel escora 

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craft. 
There's a ton of other ones that

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That are listed and that you've 
been able to work with. 

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So we thought it'd be great if 
we could bring you on and geek 

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out as we always do about shoes.
But now on a very different 

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level that would be talking 
about. 

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So we're very excited to have 
you on our subjective. 

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For those who are listening, 
please leave this in the 

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comments is, if you could design
your own running shoe, what 

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would you make? 
Because we're just going to tell

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you all about what he's made and
what he wants to make. 

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So, we were really excited about
this. 

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So, Richard thanks again for 
coming on. 

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We've talked back and forth for 
a little bit, so it's finally 

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good to have you here. 
Would you mind telling us 

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expanding on what we talked 
about and sake, like, hey, 

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where'd how did you get into 
this? 

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Like, what, what's the 
background on this, for sure. 

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Yeah, it's really interesting 
honestly, because it's kind of 

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all, you know, connected but not
him perhaps instead of the usual

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way, my background is industrial
design. 

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So I went to school for 
industrial design at Carleton 

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University. 
In Ottawa, here in Canada. 

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I'm in based in Toronto at the 
moment and yeah, coming out of 

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school. 
You know, it's cool. 

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We did all kinds of consumer 
products. 

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I was looking to kind of go into
that. 

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Engine back in 2001. 
It was, you know, what was cool 

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is like Nokia. 
It was like Phillips frog design

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Apple. 
You know, that kind of stuff. 

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I honestly, never really 
considered Footwear, so it's all

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I kind of consumer products. 
You know, it's cool. 

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We do things like Black & Decker
Power Tools, Furniture little 

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cars and kind of stuff. 
But yeah, I was looking for a 

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job. 
I moved back to Toronto, it's 

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where I'm from from Ottawa for 
the summer and I was applying to

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all these different 
consultancies and in-house 

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corporate. 
Teams and just kind of waiting 

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to see what happened. 
And in the meantime I was 

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working at Banana Republic and a
friend of mine who graduated, 

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you know, that was not related 
obviously to the to the career 

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path but you know, got to got to
make some money. 

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And yeah friend of mine, who 
graduated the year before me? 

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He worked at the baddest 
organization here in Toronto and

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he's like hey you know, we're 
hiring for a junior designer, 

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you know, you might be 
interested you know check it out

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and I've always liked shoes but 
you know back then there was no 

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such thing honestly as likes. 
Your heads like that, just 

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wasn't a thing. 
So I mean again I remember lots 

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of shoes, you know, when I was a
kid and the first Jordans, I got

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another kind of stuff, but like 
it just sort of was in my head 

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at least not connected to what I
was trying to do professionally 

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but I figured, you know what it 
sounded kind of cool. 

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And I definitely was sort of 
into fashion and softwoods was 

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kind of an interesting sort of, 
like, kind of off route from 

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product design. 
So I said, you know what, I'm 

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going to apply. 
I drew my first shoes, the night

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before the interview. 
Luckily, I think that those 

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sketches do Exist because they 
are probably totally terrible. 

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I've actually they might but 
hopefully they won't ever see 

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the light of day. 
But yeah, obviously, long story 

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short, I got the job and it's 
the kind of thing where I've 

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never looked back. 
You know, Footwear is just a 

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really interesting Niche from 
industrial design from product 

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design. 
I had great opportunities. 

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You know, when I was working 
with about it, she organization 

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it was under the power brand, 
you know, so much. 

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So that like I would say maybe a
month after I started, you know,

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my boss. 
Send me to Asia for a trip by 

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myself, said you've got one week
of work to do and three weeks to

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go to the factories and just 
like see everything and just 

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learn. 
And you know, that was basically

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the start of my career and like 
I said, I've been doing this, 

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you know, like like you said 
introduction for for 20 years 

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and it's been a lot of 
interesting steps along the way.

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But yeah, it was kind of like 
all kind of stemming from from 

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that industrial design 
background. 

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So it sounds like there was the 
classic like oh let's toss you 

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and you're gonna learn trial by 
fire here, right? 

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It sounds like totally and yeah,
it's the best way. 

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I mean, especially, you know, 
within shoes. 

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And I talked about this a lot, 
you know, on my content, you 

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know, tons of people now want to
be Footwear designers. 

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Again, it wasn't really a cool 
thing, kind of back then, nobody

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knew any shoe designers and of 
course, was no Instagram and 

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stuff like that. 
But like, you know, the best way

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to no shoes is to know. 
How shoes are made the best way 

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to design shoes. 
And yeah, so my boss, you know, 

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his experience was working from,
you know, he started the 

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production line and kind of grew
his way up to be Brand manager, 

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Jim Russell at powered. 
He's was a lifetime shoe guy. 

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And so he knew that that was 
just such a key skill to learn 

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as a young designer and I had 
that experience. 

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And I'm so thankful that for 
that. 

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And yeah, it's why I'm doing 
what I'm doing right now. 

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Can you you've talked about your
background in industrial design?

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Can you help me? 
Understand what that actually 

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means? 
Like. 

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What is it dust real design 
versus some other kind of 

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designer? 
Yeah, that's essentially. 

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You know what it does for design
is the easy way to explain it is

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the Architects design, buildings
industrial designers design, 

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everything else. 
So you know the the you know 

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term comes from your back in the
industrial revolution, you know.

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It was designers that were kind 
of responsible worth kind of 

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things took over from Craft to 
kind of have that, you know, 

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combination between designing 
for basically mass production. 

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Again, with that's the industry 
part. 

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And so it's everything from, you
know, styling Aesthetics 

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ergonomics, you know, the 
psychology of design of how that

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works into sort of part of 
design, but yeah, it could be, 

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you know, the classic examples 
are, you know, cars power, 

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tools, chairs. 
But it's basically everything in

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between, you know, these days as
well, lat Nestor designer's 

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touch on sort of UI, ux design. 
You know, may touch on even some

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sort of like graphic design, 
although that's not typically 

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part of industrial design but 
it's yeah, you know, obviously 

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encompassing shoes as well. 
That's always interesting 

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because I feel like we've heard 
that where a lot of the people 

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that we talked to talk to be it 
in for design or add the, the 

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product line manager. 
Whoever lot of them, like, 

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didn't go to school to become 
four experts. 

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It's a lot of people fall into 
this. 

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They of the design background in
the designs, come from a variety

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of and areas like engineering, 
right in the design stuff. 

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But it's interesting that that 
would suddenly take you into 

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shoe designing, and it sounds 
like there's no straight path 

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into this. 
Is that what I'm hearing? 

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No, I mean, for sure within 
especially, you know, obviously 

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we're talking athletic shoes 
here. 

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You know, I would say that. 
Yeah. 

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The, the typical paths are ya 
either through industrial design

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or some nice through like 
architecture, like, Tinker 

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Hatfield, I believe Was An 
Architect or to know trained as 

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an architect, but yeah. 
Seen people come into it from 

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Fashion Design from like you 
say, engineering, but I would 

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say, probably the majority of 
athletic footwear designers are 

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probably from an industrial 
design that type of education, 

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but yeah, there is no way for 
sure, got it. 

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So you took to design to a whole
nother level because not only 

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are you Consulting for companies
to working with all of them, 

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you're now teaching. 
So you've taught at several 

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different universities. 
You got the directive 

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Collective. 
How did the directive Collective

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start? 
That's part of the original 

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thing. 
Or is that something that 

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evolved out of what were you 
were doing? 

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No, that's actually interesting 
kind of Point again. 

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It's my path read all this. 
I would say it's kind of like 

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somewhat circuitous but the 
director of collective 

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essentially came from, you know,
my first jobs which like I said,

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first was the about Ash 
organization under the power 

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brand. 
Then after that I was recruited 

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to head up the Footwear 
department for a brand called 

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Hummel based in Denmark. 
So I lived in Denmark for three 

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years and basically in both 
those environments, we were, you

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know, working with a really 
small team. 

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In the Footwear Department, you 
know, 34 people, something like 

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that, you know, a lot of stuff 
to do. 

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And I was wearing a lot of hats.
So I was doing product line 

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management. 
I was doing design, is doing 

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development of spending, like 
100 120 days over in Asia and 

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you know, doing even marketing 
Graphics, creative Direction, 

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photoshoots packaging, all that 
kind of thing. 

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So, kind of like, touching all 
the different touch points, you 

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know, from product creation, you
know, right through to 

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commercialization and hiring a 
lot of Consultants as well. 

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Sometimes, you know, a lot of X 
and I keep People X Reebok and 

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stuff like that small small 
Studios. 

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Basically, when I finish, you 
know, at at home all in Denmark 

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and move back again to know to 
Toronto. 

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Three years was was enough in 
that position. 

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It's kind of like, Wonder, like 
switch it up. 

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I just kind of saw an 
opportunity. 

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I was thinking basically that 
there is a lot of Consultants, 

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but to be honest, none of them 
were very good and none of them 

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were as integrated as I would 
like, you know, being a small 

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Studio, I would often hire or a 
small Brand rather I would after

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hire Consultants again like X, 
thank you, people and whatnot, 

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not typical Nike. 
But, you know, for coming from a

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Big Brand, a lot of the people, 
you know, work to, you know, 

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from there. 
And that would get a really cool

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design. 
Let's say I really cool sketch 

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and, you know, follows the brief
and all that looks awesome, then

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I'd ask. 
Okay, well how do I make this 

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and they're like, oh, just give 
it to the Development 

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Department. 
I'm like, well, I am the 

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development department, like I'm
going to Asia in like two weeks.

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I'm gonna be there for a month, 
so I have to make this and, you 

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know, sometimes they couldn't 
answer those questions or they 

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00:10:45,500 --> 00:10:47,300
couldn't answer. 
Answer about the costing or 

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00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:49,900
product Graphics or the 
marketing because that's 

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typically within a big 
organization, especially a Big 

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Brand, that's not what designers
do. 

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Like designers are very siloed 
and there's different 

234
00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,500
departments for design, for 
development, for Park, like 

235
00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:03,400
management for marketing, but in
a small brand, it's, you know, 

236
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you wearing all the hats. 
So the whole idea of the 

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directive Collective was to 
address that and to basically 

238
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provide a studio that does all 
those things. 

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So, you know, the way I work now
is its. 

240
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,500
Yeah, from start to finish from 
brief or Strategy right through 

241
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to you know, final product and 
even often Beyond in marketing. 

242
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And it's just yeah, something 
different that most Studios just

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honestly, don't don't do but, 
you know, there is there's 

244
00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:29,600
always a need out there. 
Like not every brand has 

245
00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,800
multiple departments with 60 
designers and, you know, 80 

246
00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:35,700
developers and whole team's of 
marketing people like, that's 

247
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,700
that's the exception I would 
say, rather than the rule in the

248
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industry, you know, I'm not, I'm
not sure how to ask this 

249
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,200
question because we've obviously
got to, we don't do that, right?

250
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,900
But we've gotten to experience 
and talk with people. 

251
00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,600
Well, one of the surprises 
Nathan. 

252
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,100
Correct me. 
If you have a different view on 

253
00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:52,700
this was, we were surprised at 
how many even major Footwear 

254
00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:54,900
Brands. 
Actually use Consulting, like 

255
00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:59,200
they consult with outside like 
designers. 

256
00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,100
Where I think, when I first got 
in this, I kind of assumed even 

257
00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:04,200
when I was working in running 
stores in Portland the next and 

258
00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,700
ikey I was like oh everything is
in house and then it was very 

259
00:12:07,700 --> 00:12:09,200
quickly as we sort of talked to 
go. 

260
00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,000
Oh, and though this got 
contracted out, there's this 

261
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,400
agency. 
This is AG this design team is, 

262
00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:15,900
has that always been the case or
is that something that's 

263
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,600
Evolving over time where things 
are getting contracted out or 

264
00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,700
does it really is depend on the 
size of the company? 

265
00:12:21,700 --> 00:12:23,400
How they're setting themselves 
up? 

266
00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:26,400
I mean, I think it's us. 
No, it doesn't make sense but I 

267
00:12:26,408 --> 00:12:28,800
think it's kind of hard to sort 
of in a way paint all the 

268
00:12:28,808 --> 00:12:30,400
different brands or two with the
same brush. 

269
00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,200
And I think, you know the 
biggest thing to understand I 

270
00:12:33,208 --> 00:12:36,300
would say is that you know all 
these big companies especially 

271
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:39,400
and smaller ones to an extent as
well, to are very fluid, like, 

272
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,600
you know, it's kind of a running
joke with in Footwear, is that, 

273
00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,900
you know, everybody's X, 
something like, you know, 

274
00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:45,800
everyone who works at Nike may 
be used to work at it. 

275
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:47,300
Adidas. 
Or, you know, if, you know, 

276
00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:49,000
someone in the Footwear 
industry, you probably know them

277
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,100
because, like, you know, they're
their boss used to come from 

278
00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,600
Reebok but then, that Reebok guy
worked at puma and the Puma guy 

279
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,400
moved to Adidas or whatever. 
Like, you know, it's a really 

280
00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:58,300
small world, but because of 
that, there's lots of like 

281
00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,800
change lot to turn over. 
So, you know, with most brands, 

282
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,700
at least, you know, there is 
some Reliance on consultancies 

283
00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:08,600
as well to either, you know, 
fill in when people maybe leave 

284
00:13:08,900 --> 00:13:11,300
or work on projects that are 
maybe no longer term or 

285
00:13:11,300 --> 00:13:15,300
innovation or get a fresh fresh 
perspective or a different skill

286
00:13:15,300 --> 00:13:16,800
set. 
So, Really depends. 

287
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,600
I mean, I work with big Brands. 
I worked a lot of startups as 

288
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:22,000
well. 
But, you know, for this way 

289
00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,400
there's there's enough 
definitely work to go around. 

290
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,900
And yeah the situation is always
changing and fluid and you know 

291
00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:32,400
needs change and obviously like 
economies change and stuff. 

292
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,300
So design teams may get bigger 
or smaller accordingly. 

293
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:39,200
It's interesting, you know, kind
of a situation for sure. 

294
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:41,000
Yeah. 
We've definitely experience that

295
00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,300
how fluid things are that? 
Nathan was out. 

296
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:44,600
Where those? 
That we're going to talk about. 

297
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:47,400
Yeah. 
I mean we've experienced that 

298
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:50,500
just knowing companies, just 
people who we would communicate 

299
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:53,600
with for one company is then all
of a sudden this other one like,

300
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:55,600
oh good. 
Yeah over there take you again. 

301
00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:59,700
It feels like there's never any 
bad blood, it's almost like, 

302
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:02,300
yeah, this is part of our 
industry, or all doing different

303
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:04,200
opportunities, different 
projects, that kind of thing. 

304
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,400
Yeah, and I've even seen people 
like, you know, started one 

305
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,900
company. 
Go to another company, got 

306
00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:09,800
another coming in the busy work,
their way back to the same 

307
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,900
company like that. 
That's totally super cool. 

308
00:14:12,700 --> 00:14:16,600
I was also curious with you 
wanted to be a Consultancy. 

309
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,500
That kind of brings you from 
start to finish. 

310
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:21,400
How big is your team? 
And what sort of roles do you 

311
00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,600
have with Ensure? 
So yeah, you're looking at the 

312
00:14:24,608 --> 00:14:27,700
Dreadful Collective. 
It's me, you is me. 

313
00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,500
Yeah, so the whole idea behind 
it and the idea behind the name,

314
00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:33,000
essentially is, again, a 
different model of the, typical,

315
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,300
sort of Studio agency kind of 
structure where often. 

316
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:38,500
Yeah, they would have a team of 
people and you see there's sort 

317
00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:41,400
of a head guy again, you know, 
often like with more experience 

318
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,600
and what not? 
And then there's usually Junior 

319
00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,900
designer sometimes there's 
interns and the whole idea of 

320
00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:50,000
though, I think having a lot of 
people on staff or a lot of 

321
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,800
overhead, a big, you know, fancy
Studio space and what not again 

322
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,300
to me just never made any sense 
because you know, when I was 

323
00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:57,700
hiring those Consultants, you 
know, you know you're paying for

324
00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:58,800
that. 
I mean at the end of the day 

325
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,300
like these are people sitting 
around and maybe they're sitting

326
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,100
around doing nothing. 
If there's no projects, maybe 

327
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:04,700
they're busy. 
If there's lots of projects but 

328
00:15:04,700 --> 00:15:06,800
like you know again these are 
bodies in. 

329
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,900
These are people. 
So my concept with the directive

330
00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:13,000
Collective was that it was going
to be a lot more integrated, 

331
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,200
like I said, from the process 
point of view and also a lot 

332
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,200
more fluid and Of like, you 
know, the Staffing and the 

333
00:15:17,208 --> 00:15:19,100
resources. 
So it's a collective in the 

334
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:23,000
sense of, you know, again me, 
I'm the one running it and I'm 

335
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,900
sort of the head of everything 
but I bring people on as needed,

336
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:27,500
you know? 
And it's typically more from, 

337
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:30,100
especially point of view, like, 
if I may say have someone that 

338
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:33,400
I'm a client, I'm working with, 
and then we need video or, you 

339
00:15:33,408 --> 00:15:36,000
know, some photo stuff, I'm not 
a photographer, so I'm going to 

340
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,100
like bring someone in, you know,
to work temporarily with me on 

341
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:42,600
that or, you know, I've done 
stuff with artists and 

342
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,700
illustrators for certain Neil 
product graphics and stuff like 

343
00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:48,500
that. at or I've obviously got 
you know, technical people I can

344
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:51,200
kind of bring in or I'll work 
very closely with you know, 

345
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,100
let's say a last maker or like a
very experienced the of 

346
00:15:54,108 --> 00:15:58,000
technician or engineer or 
something on a project but yeah,

347
00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:01,800
having kind of a whole staff of 
people you know on staff and 

348
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,200
like basically paying people if 
they're not busy to meet our 

349
00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:08,900
make sense and as well like I 
just don't really like the idea 

350
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:12,200
of you know, you hire somebody 
and you talk to me, I'm like the

351
00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:14,600
head of it and I'm the face of 
it and then you work on the 

352
00:16:14,608 --> 00:16:17,700
project or you get your Work 
back and it's done by some 

353
00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:21,100
Junior designer or an intern 
that like, you know, has two 

354
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:23,000
years experience. 
Instead of 20 years experience, 

355
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,200
like to me that never kind of 
sat, right? 

356
00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:29,200
So, yeah, if you hire me, you 
get me, like, I'm the one doing 

357
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,000
the work and I'm the one that's 
on the calls. 

358
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,900
And we're not, you know, not 
getting passed off to somebody 

359
00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:37,700
else. 
So it's an interesting skill set

360
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:39,700
to have developed sounds like 
commonly. 

361
00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:41,300
What's done as you just said 
earlier? 

362
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:44,900
It's usually people Silo right 
there in one specific area. 

363
00:16:44,900 --> 00:16:47,700
This is what they do. 
When you're on a project you 

364
00:16:47,700 --> 00:16:50,600
might be busy but you also just 
be sitting there going, I don't 

365
00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,300
know what to do. 
So you bring kind of like 

366
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,900
decathletes, probably not the 
right word because decal, I 

367
00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:57,100
mean, maybe it is the right, 
we're right? 

368
00:16:57,100 --> 00:17:00,100
Because the Catholics usually 
are really good at everything, 

369
00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:02,400
right? 
They may not be the absolute 

370
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:04,800
best in the world, although they
are close to it frequently. 

371
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,500
As I watched A couple like book,
the most of the cool thing is 

372
00:17:07,500 --> 00:17:10,599
watching something like, oh, you
do 10 events but it's still like

373
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,300
crank out, like almost a sub 10 
100. 

374
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:18,099
It's like, so is that, is that a
good analogy or am I missing 

375
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:19,800
this? 
It's funny. 

376
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,500
I've never actually thought of 
that analogy. 

377
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,000
So I have to like think through 
how that might apply. 

378
00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,200
But no it certainly is like I 
would say just kind of like the 

379
00:17:27,208 --> 00:17:29,500
wearing, you know, kind of many 
hats kind of thing or a more 

380
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:31,800
another way to look at as kind 
of a more entrepreneurial kind 

381
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,600
of approach, you know, like if 
you're a startup and your ass a 

382
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,600
start-up founder, You're doing 
all those things, you know, 

383
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,300
they're always joking of your 
the founder and you're the 

384
00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:41,300
janitor and your the business 
development guy and whatever. 

385
00:17:41,300 --> 00:17:44,500
So it's kind of that approach, 
but yeah, it certainly, it's 

386
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,800
from, like I said, from my 
experience in training of yeah, 

387
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,100
learning how to do development, 
or learning how to do design by 

388
00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:52,800
doing development or going over 
to Asia and and learning that 

389
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,100
aspect and then everything else 
kind of came the same way. 

390
00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,800
Like, when I was working at 
Power again, as my first job you

391
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,000
know, I would design a shoe and 
I was like, okay, this shoe is 

392
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,800
really cool and I want to sell. 
So hey I think it would sell a 

393
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,600
lot better if we had a cool, a 
Tech logo on it, like, you know,

394
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,100
name for technology and then, 
hey, can I design like a hang 

395
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:11,400
tag to like, you know, talk to 
that. 

396
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,100
So we want, I'm in the sales 
presentation, it can like, you 

397
00:18:14,108 --> 00:18:17,300
know, speak for itself or like 
we do a new box, like a new box 

398
00:18:17,300 --> 00:18:19,400
would make this new, you know, 
high-end performance shoe. 

399
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:21,900
Look really cool, right? 
So I was doing all these things 

400
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:24,600
and I was given the opportunity 
to basically, you know, have 

401
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:26,700
free rein with it. 
If it basically made the product

402
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:29,300
better if it's sold better. 
So I just kind of like, you 

403
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:31,600
know, followed my own passion 
for like that come kind of 

404
00:18:31,608 --> 00:18:34,800
complete story telling. 
And and yeah that's that's kind 

405
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,500
of what What I do now, and I 
always try to do and the kind of

406
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:39,800
clients and projects that work 
with. 

407
00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:44,600
I think the probably sorry to 
hit the bigger, maybe the better

408
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,600
analogy that I would use is not 
the decathlete, but being able 

409
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,400
to have a bird's-eye view of 
this, where I feel like when 

410
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,400
your style, you might only see 
your piece. 

411
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,100
But when you're, when you see 
the whole thing, potentially, 

412
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:57,400
you can make the whole piece 
everything work together because

413
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:58,800
a bunch of different pieces that
go into this. 

414
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,800
It will talk about, but if 
you're the one that can see all 

415
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,400
of it, you might have a better 
idea how all that fits in at the

416
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,700
end ride then. 
Individual pieces from separate 

417
00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:08,100
people coming together and not 
going. 

418
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:10,000
Oh, is this gonna fit? 
Is it not? 

419
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:12,600
Is that a better analogy? 
Yeah, I mean, the way I always 

420
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,700
try and sort of like explain it,
is that actually trying to look 

421
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:17,600
at things from the consumers 
perspective, right? 

422
00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:19,900
Because from the consumers 
perspective, you know, again, it

423
00:19:19,908 --> 00:19:21,400
doesn't really matter what 
product you're talking about. 

424
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,300
Let's say shoes, you know, they 
don't really know or care that a

425
00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:27,000
different person. 
Designed the box, or different 

426
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,000
person designed the store or 
someone designed the shoe. 

427
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,500
And then a different person you 
was responsible for, developing 

428
00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:35,500
it or making it or someone else 
made the ad and when Kind of 

429
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,100
connects and when everything 
falls that same story in the 

430
00:19:38,100 --> 00:19:41,200
same say, design intent, then it
makes sense and it works. 

431
00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,500
A lot of the big brands, for 
example, are really good at that

432
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,300
because, you know, they're very 
tightly integrated and very kind

433
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:49,500
of top-down sort of structure 
but you know, you often see when

434
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:52,200
it doesn't work of like, okay, 
well, I saw the ad and this is 

435
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,800
sort of what they were promising
but then in store this was the 

436
00:19:54,808 --> 00:19:56,200
experience. 
It was kind of weird, didn't 

437
00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:58,300
make sense. 
And then I see it the product 

438
00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:01,000
and the kind of likes not what I
thought it was and then, you 

439
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,500
know, I don't want to understand
the technology or something like

440
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:05,500
when those things kind of 
breakdown because I'd say 

441
00:20:05,500 --> 00:20:08,800
they're done by different teams.
It's just basically from the 

442
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:10,600
consumers perspective, 
confusing. 

443
00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,500
So I try and look at it, you 
know, from perspective of 

444
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,400
everything should be in a way 
from the same person if that was

445
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,000
possible, right? 
And again, hundred years ago, 

446
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,500
maybe that's how it was done. 
It was one guy making, you know,

447
00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:24,500
his shoes in a shoe store or 
something like that and then 

448
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:26,700
selling the shoes when you 
walked in, you know now 

449
00:20:26,700 --> 00:20:30,100
obviously it's been all 
specialized and diversified but 

450
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,200
sometimes that works and 
sometimes it doesn't and I 

451
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,700
believe fundamentally that if 
Things are more integrated and 

452
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:41,000
there's less kind of like you 
know reinterpretation at every 

453
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:42,800
stage. 
Then it's just a much more kind 

454
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,500
of cohesive approach and a 
better product in the better 

455
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:46,600
experience. 
That's cool. 

456
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:49,700
Do you of all the projects 
you've worked on? 

457
00:20:49,700 --> 00:20:53,400
Do you have one that you're most
proud of in the last 20 years? 

458
00:20:53,700 --> 00:20:57,200
Or a specific shoe that you 
ended up working on or anything 

459
00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:58,000
like that? 
Sure. 

460
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:02,300
I would probably say the 
squirrel project was one that, 

461
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,900
you know I think really. 
Resents you know what I do and 

462
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:08,900
kind of what I like to do and 
how I like to work. 

463
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:13,300
And coincidentally is also the 
first project that made me a 

464
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,300
runner. 
I knew I wasn't a runner before 

465
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:17,400
I was designing running shoes, 
that was kind of the project 

466
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,200
that tip me over to the dark 
side. 

467
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,700
I like to say. 
But yeah, it was a kind of 

468
00:21:23,700 --> 00:21:25,900
project where, you know, the 
founder of the brand kind of 

469
00:21:25,900 --> 00:21:27,700
came to me and said, I want to 
start a shoe brand. 

470
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,600
You'd know anything about shoes 
and kind of like trusted in me 

471
00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:34,300
and so everything from, you 
know, The Branding the, the 

472
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:37,700
logo, The strategy, the 
positioning the design, the 

473
00:21:37,700 --> 00:21:41,200
development, the packaging, the 
marketing, the, you know, adds 

474
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:46,200
the website, the social all 
that, you know, I got to work on

475
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,000
and kind of, you know, put my 
vision through, what his vision 

476
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,300
was to bring to Market. 
So it was, yeah, it was a really

477
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:56,900
interesting kind of thing. 
And, you know, score was a 

478
00:21:56,908 --> 00:22:00,300
client for, I don't know. 
I want to say like 10 years or 

479
00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:04,200
something like that. 
So yeah, it was you know, again 

480
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:07,800
build From nothing and to kind 
of get to Market and following 

481
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,200
all the stages and all those 
Integrations was yeah. 

482
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,700
Something I'm still proud of and
you know again the day like it's

483
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,000
also just kind of I find you 
know rewarding to kind of also 

484
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,500
see how the market and how 
consumers you know like it as 

485
00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:22,200
well. 
Like I still honestly get people

486
00:22:23,500 --> 00:22:27,300
messaging me asking where they, 
you know, they can buy shoes 

487
00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:29,600
and, you know, they haven't been
in the market in a long time. 

488
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,300
I've seen at least three people 
but it this way who have gotten 

489
00:22:32,300 --> 00:22:37,500
tattoos of the shoes online, 
Their body like oh, like they 

490
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:39,400
took a photo or a drawing, or 
whatever the shoes, and like 

491
00:22:39,408 --> 00:22:41,600
they tattooed them because they 
ran their first marathon in them

492
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,400
or something like that and like,
okay. 

493
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,600
That's, that's kind of like, 
yeah, that's kind of crazy. 

494
00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:48,900
Like, I think that's happened 
maybe with Jordans or something 

495
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:50,700
like that, but like, I don't 
know, too many people who are 

496
00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:52,000
like, you know, I like that shoe
so much. 

497
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,100
I'm gonna like have a drawing of
it. 

498
00:22:54,100 --> 00:22:55,600
Permanently forever. 
Totally. 

499
00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,500
That's so exciting. 
I and I can see why that would 

500
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:01,300
then I mean that that shit. 
Sounds like that project in that

501
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:03,900
shoe, change your trajectory and
changed. 

502
00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:06,300
Everything that was going on. 
Even In your running life, then 

503
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:07,900
you found out your fantastic 
Runner to. 

504
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:12,800
So let's kind of shift and start
talking about actual Footwear 

505
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,100
design. 
So when someone comes to you 

506
00:23:15,108 --> 00:23:18,100
with an idea and it probably 
differs depending on who's 

507
00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:20,600
coming to you and at what stage 
of things, but let's say it's 

508
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,200
fresh, like where do you even 
start when it comes to designing

509
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:25,400
a shoe? 
Sure. 

510
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,800
I mean, it's it's I would say 
it's always different and that's

511
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,800
always my answer, you know, when
the question is sort of like, 

512
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,400
you know, how does this work? 
I'm like, it's always, it 

513
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:38,600
depends because We love that it 
really does depend so if like 

514
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,200
you know if it's like a new 
brand or I could say it's sort 

515
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,500
of a Founder like in that score 
situation where like they don't 

516
00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:45,200
even know what they want to 
make. 

517
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,100
They don't even know what the 
product is or don't even know 

518
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:50,900
what their the question is that 
we should be answering versus. 

519
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:54,000
Let's say if it's a brand that 
has, you know, a clear brief or 

520
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,600
has a product line saying, okay,
we need this product to fit 

521
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,200
this, you know, need or this is 
the next Generation version. 

522
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,400
So I did a couple shoes for 
Ultra for example and I like, 

523
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:07,800
okay this is the, the provision.
2.5 or whatever it was like, you

524
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,200
know, this is everyone knows 
what the product supposed to be 

525
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:11,500
how it fits. 
This is kind of what we're 

526
00:24:11,500 --> 00:24:13,800
trying to improve. 
It's a much different situation 

527
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:18,200
but you know either way I would 
say the answer for me or the the

528
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:22,400
you know is always research like
it's always first about kind of 

529
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,600
fundamentally doing that 
research and finding out what 

530
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,400
those questions are that need to
be asked so that we can kind of 

531
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,700
like answer them and know that 
we're on the same page. 

532
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,700
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
And when does it get to the 

533
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:40,200
point where then you're actually
starting to draw or create like 

534
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,400
there's, there's the different. 
It sounds like there's different

535
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,800
stages of this. 
Whole thing, is there a typical 

536
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:47,600
start product? 
I mean, not. 

537
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,000
I know you said it depends on 
everything. 

538
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,400
But what's the, what are those 
stages of development for a 

539
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,100
shoe? 
Sure. 

540
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:56,300
So I mean, I would say, you 
know, first days after sort of 

541
00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:59,600
that that research or strategy 
or positioning, you know, is you

542
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,200
know, Be typical it's sketches. 
You know, it's working on 

543
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:08,800
sketches and you know depending 
on if it's a designer or what 

544
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,300
the project is, you know, it's 
usually like a loose sketch to 

545
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:13,700
kind of figure out, you know, 
overall design intent overall 

546
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:17,800
kind of structure of like what 
you know, the construction might

547
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,400
be or what kind of lines and 
stuff kind of might be. 

548
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:25,200
And yeah, it's like kind of at 
the end of a kind of can't can't

549
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,700
be drawing this. 
That's what I believe beliefs. 

550
00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:31,500
Yeah. 
And do those drugs. 

551
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:35,300
So, you know, for us coming from
the physical therapy 

552
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:38,300
biomechanics background. 
We think a lot about shaping and

553
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:40,900
geometry and all this kind of 
stuff and all these different 

554
00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,800
shoes, have things that are 
identifiable to them. 

555
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,800
You think about like the vapor 
fly, the original four percent 

556
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:49,900
had this like tail with the 
point at the end. 

557
00:25:49,900 --> 00:25:56,200
You have the, the I don't know 
swallowtail that over again for 

558
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,200
a little while, right? 
So like you have all of these 

559
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,800
little design elements that come
in and even Little ribbing in a 

560
00:26:01,808 --> 00:26:04,400
midsole or liver different like 
flares with, in the middle. 

561
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,100
Do those come in through the 
drawing process? 

562
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:10,400
Or is that later and are those 
integrated for design purposes? 

563
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,000
Or do they get added later by, 
like, a biomechanics team or 

564
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:16,600
something like that? 
No, I mean, those are definitely

565
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:17,500
not. 
Those are definitely kind of 

566
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:19,800
design signatures and that are 
kind of part of it. 

567
00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:22,200
Again, in terms of sort of the 
function of those or kind of why

568
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,300
those are in there, It 
ultimately, you know, might 

569
00:26:24,300 --> 00:26:26,600
depend on sort of what the 
brief, you know, maybe it's like

570
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,000
trying to, you know, get a 
iconic, you know, visual look on

571
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,100
it, so that You know, when it's 
on the Shelf, it looks really 

572
00:26:32,100 --> 00:26:34,100
different, you know, like you 
say what they reply with that 

573
00:26:34,100 --> 00:26:37,400
tail or that shape, you know? 
Sometimes it is a functional 

574
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,800
thing saying, okay, well how can
we like Design This to kind of 

575
00:26:39,808 --> 00:26:41,800
have a more stable kind of 
platform? 

576
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,700
I know it's something you guys 
look at a lot. 

577
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:46,000
So maybe it's a question of. 
Okay, what's the overall outsole

578
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,800
shape and like, how narrow is 
the waist compared to the heel 

579
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,600
or something? 
Or, you know, how big is the 

580
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,800
sidewall you know? 
Or do we have Flex grooves or 

581
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,800
not? 
So there's definitely a 

582
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,500
combination, you know, within 
that kind of design process of 

583
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:01,100
both Form and Function. 
Action. 

584
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:04,000
And again, that's that's part of
the discovery phase at the 

585
00:27:04,008 --> 00:27:06,000
beginning of saying, okay, well,
what is the problem that we're 

586
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,400
trying to solve is it? 
Yeah, just sort of an aesthetic 

587
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,000
thing. 
Is it a functional thing? 

588
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,100
Is it? 
You know, something kind of 

589
00:27:13,108 --> 00:27:15,600
totally new of, like, we're 
trying to like, figure out a new

590
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,500
kind of function or a new kind 
of definition of, okay. 

591
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:22,300
A category or some kind of weird
combination of like, okay, what 

592
00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:24,600
would happen if we did a running
shoe before this kind of surface

593
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:28,400
or this kind of Runner? 
Yeah, all that happens though in

594
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,200
the design process for sure. 
Wow. 

595
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,100
And how, how much knowledge do 
you have on that? 

596
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,600
Beginning sketch, part about the
types of materials that are 

597
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,700
going to make up that drawing? 
And if you have knowledge, but 

598
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,000
how does that influence? 
What you what you do? 

599
00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:46,900
I mean, definitely a 
materialization is as a key part

600
00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:47,900
of it. 
And again that's why I was 

601
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:50,400
talking about before of like 
knowing how shoes are made 

602
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,300
ultimately is kind of what 
informs, you know, good design, 

603
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:57,100
I believe, and obviously, you 
know, being a runner knowing 

604
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,500
intimately how those, you know, 
different materials, kind of 

605
00:27:59,508 --> 00:28:02,700
react and how they Feel I think 
is a huge Advantage. 

606
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,800
So yeah, what I'm drawing, you 
know, say sketches or, you know,

607
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,100
lines and stuff like that. 
It's not just, you know, random 

608
00:28:09,100 --> 00:28:12,400
lines, you know, especially like
I said having having been in all

609
00:28:12,408 --> 00:28:14,600
those factories for for so many 
years. 

610
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,400
You know. 
It's in consideration of, you 

611
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:18,900
know, how is this going to be 
made? 

612
00:28:18,900 --> 00:28:22,600
Okay, is this midsole going to 
be Eva a or, you know, a 

613
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,500
supercritical foam and what can 
you do because of that or what 

614
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:28,900
can't you do or you know, what's
the price point even or watch 

615
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:31,300
the quantity even though we're 
Hit on this shoe. 

616
00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:34,000
So that may limit certain you 
know construction techniques or 

617
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,100
how many molds that we can open 
or yeah. 

618
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:40,200
Is the upper going to be knitted
or mesh or engineered mesh or 

619
00:28:40,700 --> 00:28:43,900
you know, all that kind of stuff
is kind of like. 

620
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:46,500
Yeah, it's not a least. 
It was done, right? 

621
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:48,500
It's not a process that's like, 
hey, you get a bunch of lines 

622
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:51,000
that look cool and then figure 
it out afterwards because that 

623
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:54,200
is a recipe for disaster. 
It's all kind of integrated and 

624
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,100
filtered through in, but not in 
a, in a sort of like okay you 

625
00:28:58,100 --> 00:29:00,800
know, a then B then C. 
It's kind of all mixed in with 

626
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:05,800
you know, 20 years of experience
in my head basically yeah that's

627
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,200
pretty cool. 
And then what's the what's it 

628
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,800
look like to go from these 
drawings that you have to 

629
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,800
actually creating the product is
that something that you go 

630
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,100
somewhere and do that, like you 
said you on these trips and you 

631
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:18,800
have a couple weeks to kind of 
get something done. 

632
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,300
What does that create at 
creation of the actual thing? 

633
00:29:21,300 --> 00:29:23,300
Look for sure. 
So the typically creation 

634
00:29:23,300 --> 00:29:26,400
process is I would say, you 
know, number one to understand 

635
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,200
is an iterative process so you 
know, they'll be a first sketch 

636
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:30,300
but usually that's not like 
okay. 

637
00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,900
That's It done go make it it's 
your first sketch and obviously 

638
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:35,800
back and forth with the client 
to kind of figure out. 

639
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:37,500
Okay. 
What do we like about it? 

640
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:40,200
What do you want to revise? 
You know, there may be some 

641
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,000
consultation with. 
Yeah, an engineer either on the 

642
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,800
production side or even on the 
biomechanical side of saying, 

643
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,500
okay, well yes, but we have to 
like tweak this or how about 

644
00:29:48,500 --> 00:29:52,800
this, but it will kind of go 
through several different phases

645
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,000
and those are typically 2D but 
also could be 3D, you know, 

646
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,500
something like this. 
Even let's say, you know, 

647
00:29:57,500 --> 00:30:00,400
drawing on a last to kind of 
figure out how this looks in. 

648
00:30:00,500 --> 00:30:02,700
3D. 
But at the end of the process, 

649
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:05,900
you know, the goal is either 
way, you know, doesn't matter of

650
00:30:05,908 --> 00:30:08,400
sort of how you get there is, 
you kind of have a set of 

651
00:30:08,408 --> 00:30:11,600
specifications like you have a 
tech pack, it's called so that 

652
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,400
Tech pack will basically be able
to hand it to the factory. 

653
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,400
Then the factory will be able to
make that first sample. 

654
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,600
So that first pull over as is 
called Don't for the upper or, 

655
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,500
you know, first 2D drawing or 
model for the outsole will be 

656
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:26,100
the start of that development 
journey. 

657
00:30:26,300 --> 00:30:28,600
And then from then again, it's 
like an order of iterative 

658
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,600
process to like, make more Was 
you know, figure out. 

659
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:32,900
Okay. 
Well how does this seem work? 

660
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:35,500
Or this doesn't work or like 
this isn't comfy or something 

661
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:39,100
like that to be able to kind of 
like see that through to finally

662
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:42,400
getting a shoe. 
That's good. 

663
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,700
Yeah, and assuming assuming 
supply chain issues are not in 

664
00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:51,500
the crazy stuff like that may 
have been over the last, you 

665
00:30:51,508 --> 00:30:53,700
know, three, four years. 
How long does it take from that 

666
00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:56,200
point of saying hey we want to 
see a first sample of this to 

667
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:57,600
when you actually get it in your
hand. 

668
00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:01,100
So the actual like development 
process interest I'm pulling is 

669
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:05,000
relatively quick but the process
as a whole is quite long. 

670
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,000
So I mean, put it this way. 
I'm developing shoes right now 

671
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:12,200
that are for spring 2025 and I 
started designing those shoes in

672
00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:17,900
probably January and that's like
not a crazy long time line. 

673
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:20,900
Like if it's something even far 
more Innovative let's say or 

674
00:31:20,900 --> 00:31:23,500
it's a new brand let's say that 
doesn't have a factory or a last

675
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,100
might be even further ahead. 
So yeah, being like two years 

676
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:31,300
out is actually relatively 
typical That's including 

677
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,800
everything from not only the 
design but development and then 

678
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,500
commercialization in terms of 
like actually production, you 

679
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:39,700
know, time to ship them on a 
boat to the shoe store and all 

680
00:31:39,700 --> 00:31:41,900
that. 
But it's all, it's all part of 

681
00:31:41,900 --> 00:31:43,000
it. 
You know, I think that's the 

682
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,900
joke that we've heard throughout
the industry is that will give 

683
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:49,000
feedback and a lot of the 
designers developers like, wait,

684
00:31:49,100 --> 00:31:51,400
that's shoes, just coming out, 
didn't we? 

685
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:53,300
I haven't thought about that 
shoe for years. 

686
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:57,000
It was like, oh wait, I forgot 
what this process is like, like,

687
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:57,800
okay. 
Got it. 

688
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:02,600
Yeah, totally The one thing I 
always joke about like when it 

689
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,900
comes down to, like New Year's, 
whatever like oh yeah it's dead 

690
00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:07,300
2023 or whatever. 
I'm like I've been running train

691
00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:09,200
23 on like things for like two 
years. 

692
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,200
Like that's it. 
That's yeah. 

693
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,200
And for sure. 
Yeah, by the time she's come out

694
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,900
like, people always ask me. 
How do I wear the shoes? 

695
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:18,900
I usually, by the time it comes 
out and it's like, in full 

696
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:21,700
samples, I'm not sample size, 
are all full sizes. 

697
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:24,300
I'm like, I'm already kind of 
bored of that and moved on, and 

698
00:32:24,300 --> 00:32:28,600
yeah, that was two years ago or 
something, so, yeah, it's, it's 

699
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,000
kind of par for the course and 
it's what makes, It interesting 

700
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,400
as well too because like you're 
always evolving and always 

701
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,200
learning and another saying in 
the industry is like you're only

702
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,400
as good as your last collection.
So definitely. 

703
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,000
That's, that's true. 
Like, there's always going to be

704
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,200
more shoes, I'm going to be more
more Styles and there's always, 

705
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,300
you know, Innovations to be had 
or new ideas. 

706
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,900
Yeah. 
You're living in the future. 

707
00:32:47,900 --> 00:32:50,900
Well, existing in the present 
kind of a thing and you gotta 

708
00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:54,700
bounce those it that reality 
feels warped a little bit, it 

709
00:32:54,700 --> 00:32:56,100
is. 
And it's interesting though as 

710
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:59,400
well to even from a point of 
view of like inspiration and you

711
00:32:59,408 --> 00:33:02,200
know kind of looking at At 
competitors, for example because

712
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,000
like for the most part you know.
Yeah we don't have any like 

713
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,900
secret access or something. 
Although in Asia sometimes you 

714
00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:10,600
see stuff but you know. 
Yeah. 

715
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,100
If you're getting inspired by 
like, oh look this whatever 

716
00:33:13,100 --> 00:33:15,300
Alpha Phi 3 just came out or 
whatever. 

717
00:33:15,300 --> 00:33:18,400
It is, then you're trying to, 
like, copy that, but you're 

718
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,400
trying to be inspired by that. 
By the time, your shoe comes 

719
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,900
out, like they're going to be 
two generations Beyond that's 

720
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:24,500
going to be old. 
Yeah, that's what you see, 

721
00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,900
especially, you know, sometimes 
like, you know, brands that are 

722
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:29,000
not as strong in design or 
smaller Brands. 

723
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,900
Like they're trying to, like 
face Really follow and and not, 

724
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:34,300
you know, lead or not take their
own Direction. 

725
00:33:34,300 --> 00:33:36,400
So the end up kind of having 
stuff that's like, okay, this is

726
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:40,300
like two years old looking. 
That was cool for years ago. 

727
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:43,900
Yeah, kind of but it took them 
that long that's really I put it

728
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,500
out like so they saw and it 
takes that long for them to 

729
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:48,600
process that. 
So by the time they get there, 

730
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,600
the everybody else is already 
like you know yeah we had. 

731
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:54,200
Yeah yeah, yeah totally. 
That explains a lot. 

732
00:33:54,300 --> 00:34:00,300
Oh yeah. 
Yeah. 

733
00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:01,200
Okay. 
Got it. 

734
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:02,700
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

735
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:06,500
And it's why it takes, you know,
also like a certain kind of you 

736
00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:08,600
know Vision to kind of be able 
to say okay. 

737
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,300
Well this may be happening right
now but where are things kind of

738
00:34:11,300 --> 00:34:13,400
going to be? 
Yeah two years from now whether 

739
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:18,400
it's you know in materials or in
your consumer needs or just even

740
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:20,400
from a brand point of view of 
like where do we want to be like

741
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,699
if you're always trying to play 
catch-up, you know it's not 

742
00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:25,500
going to work and I mean I 
always say the other day like 

743
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:28,300
you can't even if you even if If
you try, you know, you can't 

744
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:30,900
beat Nike ad being Nike into 
being a better Nike, right? 

745
00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:33,900
Like they have obviously more 
money and resources, you know, 

746
00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,600
than anyone. 
So, like you can't really out 

747
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:41,199
Nike Nike and I always use Nike 
as an example just because we're

748
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,800
like, thank you, but yeah well 
whatever whether it's Adidas or 

749
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:46,600
Puma or whatnot. 
Yeah. 

750
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,300
Any of those big Brands like you
know you have to kind of play a 

751
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:52,400
different game and have your own
vision and look ahead and that 

752
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,600
applies even more. 
So to smaller Brands, I say I 

753
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,000
work a lot with startups and 
stuff so it's Yeah, it's it's 

754
00:34:59,100 --> 00:35:00,800
interesting. 
So that's an interesting balance

755
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,800
to learn like oh hey as an 
industry were learning from each

756
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:05,800
other but you can't just be 
following. 

757
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:06,800
You have to go. 
All right. 

758
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,000
We're actually going to like 
we're going to have a vision and

759
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,000
we're going to jump on something
which is what I mean. 

760
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,600
The classic thing to talk about 
was the vapor fly when that 

761
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,100
their 4% came out. 
Everybody was like scrambling, 

762
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:19,400
try to replicate that and it 
took a while to be able to do 

763
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:21,700
that to get product out. 
A lot of the products seem like 

764
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:23,400
it was good. 
It just wasn't. 

765
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,000
All the way there. 
And it took a few companies to 

766
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:27,700
go. 
We're going to start thinking 

767
00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:30,500
super far ahead. 
And that, finally, people 

768
00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:33,700
started to create things and now
things have taken off and some 

769
00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:36,500
interesting directions, but it 
took having a vision of the 

770
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:38,800
future rather than going, we're 
going to spit out as much as we 

771
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,400
can and try to just copy that 
because by that time Nikes, or 

772
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,500
sure for sure and yeah, yeah. 
And you saw it, you know, 

773
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:47,200
especially like yeah, with the 
vapor fly. 

774
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,200
I mean, you know, thank you, 
Miss Lee. 

775
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,300
Had that market all to 
themselves for I would say, 

776
00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:53,500
probably at least, you know, two
years and then. 

777
00:35:53,500 --> 00:35:55,100
Yeah. 
You start to see the odd one, 

778
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:58,000
but yeah, it just wasn't like, 
you know, they tried to catch up

779
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,400
maybe too quick and it wasn't 
there like whatever the first 

780
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:04,400
Hoka rocket X or whatever. 
Like just, you know, didn't 

781
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:09,300
didn't really do anything and 
other brands had nothing and 

782
00:36:09,500 --> 00:36:11,600
almost just, even though I would
say up to, like, maybe last 

783
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,000
year, so you started to see the 
Brand's kind of really come into

784
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,100
their own and have, you know, 
comparable material, they're 

785
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:20,800
comfortable geometries or, you 
know, something kind of totally 

786
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,300
new. 
Whether it's, like the super 

787
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:26,500
stack shoes with the Try Max or 
something or the SE trainer, 

788
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:30,200
whatever kind of do something 
different and you know, it's not

789
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,500
that all those other brands were
asleep at the wheel or didn't 

790
00:36:32,500 --> 00:36:34,500
have their own ideas. 
But yeah, it is that time line 

791
00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:35,900
especially those kind of 
products. 

792
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:38,300
Like I said, where is something 
really new like that? 

793
00:36:38,300 --> 00:36:40,900
Can't even take a lot longer 
than two years, you know, if 

794
00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:44,200
you're, you know, new to 
whatever working with carbon 

795
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,500
fiber or supercritical phones or
something like that, even if 

796
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:49,900
you're a big brand again, I 
don't know. 

797
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:53,400
But I would assume it takes a 
lot, you know, more time than 

798
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:57,300
even if Your typical inline shoe
that might take this a two years

799
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,100
because what I'm hearing you say
is like as someone who has wears

800
00:37:01,100 --> 00:37:04,000
a lot of different hats. 
You know that yes, while you can

801
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,000
do something, there's still 
other experts. 

802
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,100
Were, you have to go get if you 
don't have any expertise in that

803
00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:10,400
area, and if you don't know 
anybody, you got to make those 

804
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,300
contacts. 
You got to go figure that out. 

805
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:14,400
Okay, how do we get this? 
Who do we talk to what 

806
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,200
materials? 
What companies do we contact? 

807
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:18,600
Which is where your expertise 
comes in? 

808
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:20,400
Because you have worn all those 
hats? 

809
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,400
You go. 
I might know somebody. 

810
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,700
I've worn that hat. 
It's not like a going in totally

811
00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:27,600
blind, but there's still some 
searching when there's a New 

812
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,000
Concept, for sure. 
And a lot of it is even just 

813
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,600
coming up with that concept, is 
a asking those questions, like 

814
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,500
say, that's why I kind of always
say the research or strategy and

815
00:37:35,500 --> 00:37:39,200
positioning phases first is 
because sometimes, you know, the

816
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:41,300
hardest part is even just kind 
of, like, figuring out, okay, 

817
00:37:41,300 --> 00:37:45,700
well, what, what should it be, 
or what shouldn't it be, you 

818
00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:48,100
know, in a way the idea part is 
easy. 

819
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:52,500
It's trying to figure out, you 
know, what are the ideas that 

820
00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:55,100
are applicable for The brand or 
the product or something like 

821
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:58,000
that. 
So yeah, sometimes just the 

822
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,400
briefing part or the product 
line part, like I said, again, 

823
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,900
that's typically not necessarily
designers purview but something,

824
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:07,000
you know, I do is the hard part 
of figuring out. 

825
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,500
Okay. 
Well, where is the market going,

826
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,900
right? 
And what should we build or not?

827
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,700
So, a question for you that I 
have, I do actually want to ask 

828
00:38:15,700 --> 00:38:17,900
about that in terms of 
projections of where you think 

829
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:20,600
things are going and Trends, 
you've been seen in your design 

830
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,600
Endeavors. 
So we'll kind of table that one.

831
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,800
For maybe next, but I am curious
as well, just with the position 

832
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,000
that you sit in the perspective,
you have we've seen changing in 

833
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,500
prices of Footwear, right? 
So, you have a range of shoes 

834
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:37,400
that are sitting everywhere from
like, now, 150. 

835
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,000
It's a very typical price for a 
daily trainer all the way up to 

836
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:45,600
275, 300 or some shoes that are 
like run speed, lend or 

837
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,100
whatever. 
They're creating shoes that are 

838
00:38:47,100 --> 00:38:51,500
350 400 $500, what's your 
perspective on pricing in the 

839
00:38:51,500 --> 00:38:54,700
Footwear industry from where you
sit, like how How fair is the 

840
00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:58,100
pricing for the shoes that were 
seen on the market? 

841
00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:01,000
I mean ultimately the price is 
fair because there's a question 

842
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:03,700
of what you're getting and I 
think that, you know, that's the

843
00:39:03,700 --> 00:39:06,000
biggest understanding. 
I think that people have to have

844
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:10,300
is like, you know, the model of 
like how much does a shoe cost 

845
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:14,200
is directly related to, you 
know, what's in it basically and

846
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,200
obviously the old price of Labor
and stuff like that. 

847
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:19,900
Like, there's no scenario where,
like, all of a sudden, some shoe

848
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:22,100
companies decided like chart 
some crazy price, which is 

849
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:23,600
always set in making way more 
money. 

850
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,500
Like, it doesn't really work 
like that. 

851
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:28,400
Like it's, you know, basics of 
Economics supply and demand, 

852
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,700
right? 
If you know, they just decided 

853
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,000
to charge great prices and no 
one want to buy it, then that 

854
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:36,100
wouldn't work, right? 
But yeah, when you're talking, 

855
00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:39,000
of course, nowadays about, you 
know, how many shoes have carbon

856
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:41,600
fiber plates in them, even some 
that shouldn't probably have 

857
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:44,300
carved fireplace, but I'm so 
happy to hear that. 

858
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,900
We say that one more time, we 
agree. 

859
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,100
But that kind of thing. 
Critical Foams or even, just the

860
00:39:55,100 --> 00:39:57,500
type of like you know engineered
knits and meshes and stuff that 

861
00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:01,000
we have compared to you know 
what shoes were not that long 

862
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,300
ago. 
Even like I said before, it's 

863
00:40:03,500 --> 00:40:06,100
not even just before Vapor fly 
before, even some of the newer 

864
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:08,800
generation where you were 
getting things like, you know, 

865
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,600
the flying it's or the you 
engineered meshes and stuff. 

866
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:17,200
And shoes were basically, you 
know, don't go that far to go to

867
00:40:17,208 --> 00:40:18,500
look at shoes. 
Were basically, you know, one 

868
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:20,800
piece of Eva, you know, some 
rubber. 

869
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,600
The upper was a mesh with a 
couple overlays. 

870
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:27,100
Maybe you had some like, you 
know, so hot nail TPU and stuff 

871
00:40:27,100 --> 00:40:29,000
kind of going on. 
And that's about it. 

872
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,400
Like there wasn't a lot, you 
know, in there, you know, that 

873
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,400
would change the price. 
Whereas now there is a lot more 

874
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,600
and obviously again, you know, 
labor definitely is part of it. 

875
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,800
I mean, cost of Labour in in 
Asia and many countries has gone

876
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:47,400
up him, China primarily, but 
even across Vietnam, and, you 

877
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,800
know, that's just kind of part 
of it. 

878
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,500
I mean, obviously, the price of 
everything goes up, you know, 

879
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:53,500
over time, long enough time 
scale. 

880
00:40:53,700 --> 00:40:57,100
I'll but yeah. 
Certainly the performance side 

881
00:40:57,100 --> 00:41:01,000
of things in terms of materials 
is a huge factor and the speed, 

882
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,800
then choose a perfect example, 
like, you know what, you know 

883
00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,900
what Dave and Kevin had built. 
Especially, you know what, that 

884
00:41:06,900 --> 00:41:08,800
first one there, when they kind 
of came out with that, $300, 

885
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,400
shoot. 
And I was like, wow, well, it 

886
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,000
wasn't your typical Trail 
Runner, right? 

887
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:13,800
Like they were building 
something that, you know, the 

888
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,300
kind of put it as like, you 
know, Trail piece of equipment, 

889
00:41:17,300 --> 00:41:19,200
right? 
A high-end performance piece of 

890
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:20,800
equipment, not just another 
shoe. 

891
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,100
So you know, everything from all
the construction to the 

892
00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:25,600
material. 
Those two just, you know, trying

893
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,200
to put all this stuff in, you 
know, that's what also made it 

894
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:30,400
awesome like there's a reason 
why you no one else did what 

895
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,300
they did is because yeah, the 
she would cost 450 bucks and 

896
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:36,600
there's not that much, you know,
maybe volume in it. 

897
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:41,300
So for let's say, whatever 
Adidas or, you know, I'm Meryl 

898
00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:43,200
or something like that or some 
other kind of Trail brand 

899
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:46,300
Solomon, even, you know, maybe 
can't sell that my shoes. 

900
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:48,800
It's not worth it but for a 
smaller brand they can kind of 

901
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,500
do that. 
And obviously have a different 

902
00:41:50,500 --> 00:41:53,100
story, wrapped around it and 
somewhere to Specialty or 

903
00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:54,700
Mordecai. 
Like those connoisseurs of 

904
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:58,300
performance, you know, it can 
work right? 

905
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,400
So yeah, it's again the balance 
even just between you and new 

906
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,600
brands or smaller Brands and big
Brands. 

907
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,100
Like that's why I was kind of 
saying, even the going back to 

908
00:42:07,100 --> 00:42:10,700
that point of like trying to not
out Nike Nike, you know, stuff 

909
00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:12,300
like that. 
As a perfect example, like, it 

910
00:42:12,300 --> 00:42:16,100
wouldn't be worth Nikes time to 
do something like that because 

911
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:18,600
it just doesn't sell enough, 
right? 

912
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:22,000
Yeah. 
And I think what's interesting 

913
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:27,600
too is just For someone like 
like me, I don't get to realize 

914
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,900
that part of a shoe creation is 
paying you. 

915
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,900
So like part of it, part of what
you pay for in a shoes, the 

916
00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:36,100
development of bed shoe and that
involves a team that P needs to 

917
00:42:36,100 --> 00:42:38,900
be paid to help. 
Create the sketches and all 

918
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:41,300
these iterations of things like 
you were this three-year 

919
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:43,900
process. 
Correct, volume on that. 

920
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:48,000
I think I should it's part of 
it. 

921
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,900
Honestly it's that tiny part. 
Like you know, I have a video 

922
00:42:50,900 --> 00:42:54,500
video on my social people always
Okay, how much does it cost to 

923
00:42:54,508 --> 00:42:56,600
start a new Footwear brand? 
Like I say, I worked a lot with 

924
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,900
startups and and by the way, if 
anyone has an idea of starting a

925
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:01,800
footwear brand, I would love to 
work with you. 

926
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:04,500
But yeah, go watch that video 
first but I always say, yeah, it

927
00:43:04,500 --> 00:43:07,400
costs like a million dollars. 
So, you know what you're paying 

928
00:43:08,300 --> 00:43:11,200
me, for example, is definitely 
not a million dollars of the 

929
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,100
would be nice but it's a small 
tiny part of it because all 

930
00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:16,500
those costs, you know, when you 
do, add them up of, you know, 

931
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:20,000
molds of, you know, production 
cost of marketing, cost of 

932
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,700
whatever sales cost stuff like 
that distribution Logistics. 

933
00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:25,700
Is a big part of it. 
And those are the numbers that 

934
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:27,300
really make a difference to the 
price issue. 

935
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:31,600
Like, you know, I guess you 
could say, yeah, that the cost 

936
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,900
of design is part of it but it's
a pretty small part. 

937
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,200
I will say, without without 
mentioning, a company name 

938
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:41,300
because they were nice enough to
communicate with me about those 

939
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:43,600
when I was early in my 
dissertation or whirling. 

940
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,400
My PhD. 
I still was really wanted to do 

941
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,000
Footwear which a very brilliant 
PhD in Footwear. 

942
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,100
Once told me do not do that for 
your dissertation. 

943
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,800
Do that afterwards or you'll 
never finish. 

944
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,900
So when I was This company like 
hey if I want to modify the last

945
00:43:56,900 --> 00:43:59,100
or the does like the mold of the
shoe. 

946
00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:01,600
How you know if I want to get a 
couple variations of that? 

947
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:03,700
How much would that be in there?
Like yeah every time we change a

948
00:44:03,708 --> 00:44:06,000
small piece it's like seven 
thousand dollars is Seven Grand 

949
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,700
and I was like For like a small 
change. 

950
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:12,300
Like, yeah, at minimum and I 
just blew my I was sitting there

951
00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:14,200
speechless and like, are you 
okay Mike. 

952
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,100
I'm just processing this. 
Like it's expensive for sure. 

953
00:44:17,100 --> 00:44:18,300
Yeah. 
I mean, but it's way. 

954
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:21,100
But what I always say is like at
the same time, you know? 

955
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:24,100
Yeah, there is a cost of course 
to design and they experience 

956
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,400
and you pay for that as 
pre-pandemic, by the way. 

957
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,300
But also you know I would say 
there's a bigger cost to like 

958
00:44:29,300 --> 00:44:32,700
also not taking those costs are 
not taking that design into 

959
00:44:32,700 --> 00:44:35,800
consideration, right? 
Like I've often even come 

960
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,900
across, you know, smaller And 
whatnot who come to me, let's 

961
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:42,500
say after that, they work with 
somebody else or try to just out

962
00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:44,500
figure it out and like, do it on
their own or work directly, the 

963
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:47,900
factory who don't have the 
experience that I've had and 

964
00:44:47,900 --> 00:44:50,800
they maybe even gone to Market 
and then all their shoes are 

965
00:44:50,900 --> 00:44:53,800
having QC quality problems or 
they don't fit. 

966
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,600
And, you know, people are 
returning them or like, you 

967
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,600
know, they just. 
Yeah. 

968
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,400
I was repeating off or the. 
The grip is not good. 

969
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,000
Or like people don't like them 
so you know, aesthetically 

970
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,000
they're not selling. 
So I always say, you know, the 

971
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:09,100
cost of hiring good. 
Design may be expensive, you 

972
00:45:09,108 --> 00:45:11,500
know, relatively like say 
definitely, not million dollars,

973
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,400
but the cost of not, you know, 
taking on that cost is even 

974
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:17,700
more, right? 
And that's, that's the bigger 

975
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:19,800
cost is like, yeah, when you're 
getting returns or you're 

976
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,000
getting, you know, shoes that 
are have to get sent back to the

977
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,500
factory or your production is 
delayed or whatever. 

978
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,200
That's, that's really expensive 
for especially for a smaller 

979
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:29,500
bracelet. 
The bigger Brands could probably

980
00:45:29,500 --> 00:45:31,900
get away with that because we've
seen quality control stuff for 

981
00:45:31,908 --> 00:45:33,700
it's like, like this is getting 
returned. 

982
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:35,400
People are complaining. 
This part is peeling, our for 

983
00:45:35,408 --> 00:45:38,000
this is happening. 
So a larger brand can We eat 

984
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,100
that up, right? 
Your Nike ideas can eat that up 

985
00:45:40,100 --> 00:45:43,500
but a smaller brand that might 
be the death of the whole 

986
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:44,600
company. 
Right. 

987
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,200
It's like that's a larger 
pressure at. 

988
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,300
Yeah. 
And I mean even after being I'm 

989
00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,500
so big brain want to do that. 
No, I know but I mean, put it 

990
00:45:51,508 --> 00:45:53,000
this way for a Big Brand. 
Yes. 

991
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:54,700
Obviously the yeah, like, he's 
not gonna go out of business. 

992
00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:58,000
If whatever hundred thousand 
pairs of shoes are crappy and 

993
00:45:58,000 --> 00:45:59,600
they have to like, you know, 
burn them or whatever. 

994
00:46:00,300 --> 00:46:02,800
But at the same time, you know, 
all the problems are magnified. 

995
00:46:02,800 --> 00:46:04,700
If you're a bigger brand, right?
I got the bigger thing to 

996
00:46:04,708 --> 00:46:07,400
understand to if you're a small 
brand and you say, make a first 

997
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:10,000
Production order, it's 2,000 
pairs of shoes and all of them 

998
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,800
are, you know, have a problem 
you have to fix them as 2,000 

999
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:14,600
pairs of shoes. 
Like that's not nothing, you 

1000
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,700
know, depending on the cost of 
the shoes and then whatever. 

1001
00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:20,300
But if you're a bigger brand and
your first order is like, 

1002
00:46:20,300 --> 00:46:23,200
250,000 pairs of shoes and all 
of those have to go back. 

1003
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:25,100
Like that's just a bigger 
problem, right? 

1004
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:30,500
So nobody is immune from, you 
know, the costs of mistakes, it 

1005
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:33,500
happens, right? 
But you learn from it if you 

1006
00:46:33,508 --> 00:46:36,000
can. 
So bringing back one of those 

1007
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,400
things you started referencing 
about. 

1008
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:40,000
Things you actually referenced 
plates that might be one of 

1009
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,300
these things that we talked 
about but from your position is 

1010
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:45,100
a designer. 
What trends have you been seen 

1011
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,600
coming in the last five years. 
If you can talk about stuff that

1012
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:51,600
your work that you're seeing now
and design that I guess won't 

1013
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,100
happen for a couple years, 
please do that's super 

1014
00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:56,200
interesting but if you have to 
stick to what you've seen kind 

1015
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,300
of in terms of what's at Market 
but what trends are you seeing 

1016
00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:01,000
in the industry? 
Yeah I mean it's interesting. 

1017
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,500
You know as you mentioned 
obviously you know I'm a runner 

1018
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:06,900
as so I view things through two 
different lenses or at least two

1019
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:09,300
to you. 
Go from design point of view and

1020
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:11,100
obviously, you know, from a 
shoemaking kind of point of view

1021
00:47:11,100 --> 00:47:13,500
being being in industry. 
But also, you know, as a 

1022
00:47:13,508 --> 00:47:16,800
consumer right like, I mean, I, 
you know, sure, I get some shoes

1023
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:19,800
but also, I buy a lot of the 
shoes that I run in myself and I

1024
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:23,200
run in, you know, since I kind 
of work cross brand, you know, a

1025
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,400
lot of different, you know, 
Brands a lot of different 

1026
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:26,600
products. 
And I try a lot of different 

1027
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,000
stuff kind of see what's out 
there. 

1028
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:30,900
So, you know, in terms of kind 
of what's out there. 

1029
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:34,200
You know, I think to me, it's 
kind of really interesting, you 

1030
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,100
know, like, we're talking kind 
of before, you know, the 

1031
00:47:36,100 --> 00:47:37,800
evolution of some of these kind 
of Knowledge. 

1032
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,700
He's in the evolution of kind of
how brands are trying to find, 

1033
00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:43,800
you know, different ways of 
putting their own spin on, you 

1034
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,900
know where things are going, you
know, with respect to. 

1035
00:47:46,900 --> 00:47:49,200
Yeah, a lot more focus on race 
day shoes. 

1036
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:52,700
I mean, that alone that wasn't 
really a thing before Vapor fly.

1037
00:47:52,700 --> 00:47:56,300
Like maybe you'd have sort of 
some racing flats that maybe a 

1038
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:58,100
super specialty run store would 
carry. 

1039
00:47:58,500 --> 00:48:02,600
But, you know, now it, you know,
Mass consumers are buying race 

1040
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,300
shoes. 
At like you said, 250 350 bucks,

1041
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:08,600
whatever they are and yeah. 
You can buy them online and you 

1042
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:11,200
see four or five our 
marathoners, you know, wearing 

1043
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,700
Alpha flies and stuff like that.
And it's just a totally 

1044
00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:18,100
different kind of concept even 
though like, how many different 

1045
00:48:18,100 --> 00:48:20,200
kinds of shoes you need because 
you're not going to be probably 

1046
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:21,900
wearing those every single day, 
right? 

1047
00:48:21,900 --> 00:48:25,600
So that whole even more 
segmentation of product lines, 

1048
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:28,900
you know, with again within 
running especially is I think, 

1049
00:48:28,900 --> 00:48:31,700
you know, super fascinating of 
like, okay, how many shoes did 

1050
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,200
runners need? 
What are those kind of shoes 

1051
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,500
going to be? 
And then how can we find that 

1052
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:39,500
kind of niche? 
Because before I think a lot of 

1053
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:43,600
it was just like, okay, you've 
got, you know, running shoes and

1054
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:45,600
everyone kind of basically where
the same running shoe, like, 

1055
00:48:45,900 --> 00:48:49,000
nobody's really buying, I say, 
you know, two flats are spikes 

1056
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,100
and stuff like that. 
And then maybe you've got your, 

1057
00:48:51,100 --> 00:48:54,100
you know, stability shoe with 
some sort of like motion control

1058
00:48:54,100 --> 00:48:57,700
or you know, pronation medial 
post or something kind of on it.

1059
00:48:57,700 --> 00:49:00,800
And then maybe you've got your 
like cushioning shoe, whatever 

1060
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:03,700
that means with some sort of 
weird gel or something like that

1061
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:05,600
in it, but that's kind of about 
it. 

1062
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,600
Like it wasn't really talking to
To you know, different needs of 

1063
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,100
different, you know, types of 
runs for the same Runner, right 

1064
00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:12,600
before it's different, kinds of 
Runners, right? 

1065
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,900
Like okay, you get fitted at 
your store and you'll go look at

1066
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:17,800
this part of the wall or go look
at this part of the wall now 

1067
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,000
it's like okay first of all 
y'all that motion control stuff 

1068
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:25,100
is like not really think so much
but you know it's like okay you 

1069
00:49:25,100 --> 00:49:28,300
need if you're any sort of 
serious Runner, you need for 

1070
00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:30,000
different kinds of shoes, you 
need your speech. 

1071
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,800
You need your training shoe and 
your long run recovery shoe. 

1072
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,800
You need your race day issue, 
like all these different kind of

1073
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,100
things, and there's obviously 
different Different takes on 

1074
00:49:38,100 --> 00:49:42,600
those, right. 
Do you buy that concept of what 

1075
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:46,300
different kinds of shoes? 
Yeah, yes and no. 

1076
00:49:46,300 --> 00:49:53,100
I mean personally I it's funny I
have a hard time not buying the 

1077
00:49:53,100 --> 00:49:55,600
interesting shoes which are 
usually the like, you know, 

1078
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:59,000
faster plated shoes just because
I got it. 

1079
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,900
Yeah, I'm gonna spending two 
hundred bucks or like, you know,

1080
00:50:00,900 --> 00:50:02,400
try something out. 
Like yeah, I don't really want 

1081
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,200
to wear just like a plain ETA 
you know, whatever kind of 

1082
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,900
boring shoe. 
But also at the same time like 

1083
00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:10,600
you know my coach is always 
saying you got to like, you 

1084
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:14,400
know, slow down on your ride. 
So like that's probably somehow 

1085
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:18,400
somehow connected. 
So I'm going to follow it up 

1086
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,500
hook that goes into one of the 
questions that we've gotten 

1087
00:50:20,500 --> 00:50:23,200
frequently and we've been 
thinking about for a long time 

1088
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:26,100
is how would you categorize 
shoes it today? 

1089
00:50:26,100 --> 00:50:28,500
Because it like you said, this 
is back when I was in running 

1090
00:50:28,500 --> 00:50:31,500
stories years ago. 
The old way it was you are it 

1091
00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:32,600
wasn't really about the racing 
Flats. 

1092
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,700
I'm love the you touched on that
because people don't really 

1093
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:37,000
understand that. 
Back in the day racing Flats 

1094
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,700
were like For the few crazy ones
that would actually like run all

1095
00:50:40,700 --> 00:50:43,600
out, like most people just 
wanted a comfortable shoe, so it

1096
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,500
was, it was your neutral, your 
stability, and your emotion 

1097
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:50,700
control it with that was really 
how the shoe wall was 

1098
00:50:50,700 --> 00:50:52,200
categorized. 
Even to this date. 

1099
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,700
Maybe you got some like, when 
the minimal stuff cut started 

1100
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:58,800
coming about, which is white 
right at the tail end of when I 

1101
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:01,300
was working in running stores. 
Not know, that's not true. 

1102
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:03,800
It was during that. 
Then you started getting some 

1103
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,200
like oh here is your minimal 
stuff now. 

1104
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,900
You spent, you know, we've got 
this Giant explosion and people 

1105
00:51:08,900 --> 00:51:10,600
keep asking how would you cut 
it. 

1106
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:15,500
So my question to you is as a 
designer, how do you categorize 

1107
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,700
for like how do you organize the
wall on a store? 

1108
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:20,100
Kind of question, how, or how 
would you organize the wall of 

1109
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:21,800
the wall in a store? 
Is another great way of putting 

1110
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,600
that. 
I think I better question is, 

1111
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,000
you know, how does this again 
consumer? 

1112
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,800
Look at it. 
And the fact that like, for the 

1113
00:51:28,808 --> 00:51:30,900
most part, like those walls also
don't exist, right? 

1114
00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:33,800
That's another big thing. 
The kind of look at is like, you

1115
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,600
know, run especially is I think,
super important. 

1116
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,600
I've worked a lot. 
With a local running store. 

1117
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,400
I've been actually designed 
running store the interior 

1118
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,900
design of it here in Toronto. 
Black toe running great Running 

1119
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:45,800
Shop. 
If you're ever in Toronto to 

1120
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,900
check them out. 
But you know a lot of purchasing

1121
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:52,000
happens, you know, either direct
to Consumer online. 

1122
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:55,300
Like, you know, you can buy 
stuff from whatever whatever.com

1123
00:51:56,000 --> 00:51:59,300
or, you know, through run 
specialty online or again, 

1124
00:51:59,300 --> 00:52:01,500
mass-market kind of stores and 
stuff like that. 

1125
00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:05,300
So it is a different scenario 
and even obviously within run 

1126
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:07,100
specialty, a lot of them don't 
have them arranged in. 

1127
00:52:07,100 --> 00:52:08,400
Yeah. 
Oh, those like you know, neutral

1128
00:52:08,400 --> 00:52:11,300
whatever most control stability 
kind of things. 

1129
00:52:11,500 --> 00:52:14,700
So I think you know again it's 
more about understanding sort of

1130
00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:17,400
the runners needs and that's 
kind of how I try to look at it 

1131
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:21,700
as a designer and what are kind 
of they looking for at the end 

1132
00:52:21,708 --> 00:52:23,600
of the day. 
And it's not always, you know, 

1133
00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:25,900
fitting in with those boxes. 
Right. 

1134
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:29,000
And even sort of within sort of,
you know, say your typical kind 

1135
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:31,200
of Runners training thing of 
like. 

1136
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,800
Okay you've got your, you know, 
speed work, your intervals and 

1137
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:35,700
whatnot. 
You've got your recovery or long

1138
00:52:35,700 --> 00:52:37,300
runs or easy runs, stuff like 
that. 

1139
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,900
Like, that doesn't necessarily 
always align with how the runner

1140
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:43,100
looks at it even though they're 
doing those different things, 

1141
00:52:43,100 --> 00:52:46,000
right? 
So like yeah, I don't know, like

1142
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,500
for me as I say is an example. 
Like, I like to wear shoes that 

1143
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:54,000
make me feel a little bit 
faster, even on my recovery days

1144
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,600
because I feel super slow and 
sluggish, you know, so it's more

1145
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,200
about I think the mentality of 
it. 

1146
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,500
And I think that that's kind of 
where also, some of those 

1147
00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:04,800
interesting shoes are starting 
to kind of come from that, don't

1148
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:07,200
fit neatly in those boxes. 
Like, you know, for example the 

1149
00:53:07,300 --> 00:53:09,800
The convention, the SC Trainer. 
That's one of my favorites. 

1150
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,200
It has been you know for almost 
like all those things because I 

1151
00:53:13,208 --> 00:53:16,500
get super cushy. 
So if my legs are dead I want to

1152
00:53:16,508 --> 00:53:18,700
wear that she would just feels 
like really comfy kind of like 

1153
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,000
going into it, you know, the day
after some speed work. 

1154
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:22,700
Right. 
It's really nice because it's 

1155
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:25,000
got a lot of cushioning. 
I've got some bounce to it, so I

1156
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:28,100
could wear it for a long run. 
It's got the plate. 

1157
00:53:28,100 --> 00:53:31,100
So if I'm doing some Temple 
work, it also kind of worked for

1158
00:53:31,100 --> 00:53:35,100
that and yeah, super high stack.
So sure, maybe technically, I'm 

1159
00:53:35,100 --> 00:53:38,100
not maybe a little heavy, the 
past when Eliza Maybe not going 

1160
00:53:38,100 --> 00:53:40,500
to race in it, but a lot of 
people do and you can write, I 

1161
00:53:40,508 --> 00:53:43,100
mean, for technically, it's not 
legal but obviously, I'm not, 

1162
00:53:43,100 --> 00:53:45,300
like, whatever winning any races
or something, so, no one's 

1163
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:48,300
checking my shoes, but, you 
know, it's those kind of things 

1164
00:53:48,300 --> 00:53:49,700
are labeled a, what are the 
runner want? 

1165
00:53:49,700 --> 00:53:50,600
Maybe? 
And, again, I don't know what 

1166
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:53,600
the brief was for that. 
Shoot, but, you know, how does 

1167
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:57,200
the runner kind of like want to 
respond to their product, as 

1168
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,000
opposed, to the at what box is 
going to fit in? 

1169
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,600
Or what, you know, day is going 
to kind of work on those? 

1170
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,000
Kind of interesting things, I 
think are happening a lot, a lot

1171
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,200
more and you got it from a lot 
of different companies. 

1172
00:54:07,300 --> 00:54:09,700
As well to just like, yeah, what
we don't really know what this 

1173
00:54:09,700 --> 00:54:13,400
is or doesn't really fit kind of
where the conventional shoes are

1174
00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:14,400
but that's what makes it 
interesting. 

1175
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:16,800
So, I guess we're asking this 
from the wrong perspective, 

1176
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,400
we're asking this from the end 
goal of going. 

1177
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:23,300
What boxes do we put this in, 
which may have like, you said, 

1178
00:54:23,300 --> 00:54:25,600
have nothing to do with what the
consumers interested in. 

1179
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:28,700
So, with the better question to 
ask is, how are consumers, 

1180
00:54:28,700 --> 00:54:31,000
perceiving these shoes? 
Do they understand? 

1181
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,200
There's a difference between 
them, do they know how to 

1182
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,300
recognize that? 
And is that going to help them? 

1183
00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:38,700
Maybe move toward choosing Anshu
versus the other. 

1184
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,400
That sounds like, that's a 
better place to start. 

1185
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:44,800
Yeah, I mean, I think the best 
sort of way to look at it is, 

1186
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,500
like, what does the consumer 
want to feel like? 

1187
00:54:46,500 --> 00:54:48,500
How did how do they feel it the 
other day, right? 

1188
00:54:48,500 --> 00:54:51,900
And I think, even if you look at
the growth of, you know, Brands,

1189
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,700
you know, like Hoka or on, you 
know, even outside of Runners, 

1190
00:54:55,700 --> 00:54:58,900
like, my 60 year old uncle is 
talking like, oh, yeah, I try to

1191
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:02,600
use on shoes or whatever, super 
comfy, whatever, like he's not 

1192
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,400
running anywhere. 
You know, a lot of old people 

1193
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,500
are walking around malls and 
hookers and stuff, but It's 

1194
00:55:07,500 --> 00:55:10,200
about the feeling like they feel
super comfy, right? 

1195
00:55:10,200 --> 00:55:13,200
And the same reason in terms of 
like the reason that people are 

1196
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,600
wearing Alpha flies, to run a 
five hour marathon, it's because

1197
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,700
they feel faster or something 
like that to them, like 

1198
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:20,600
psychologically, not even, like,
physically. 

1199
00:55:20,600 --> 00:55:23,100
I don't know if it makes any 
actual difference here, you 

1200
00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:27,400
know, at that pace, but, you 
know, it's that kind of feeling,

1201
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:29,300
I think that's kind of, more 
important to kind of more 

1202
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:31,400
interesting. 
So even if you look at sort of, 

1203
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,900
the reason may be, that people 
are not going in certain shoes 

1204
00:55:34,900 --> 00:55:36,700
that maybe they should, or that 
they could. 

1205
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:38,500
It just comes down to feeling, 
right? 

1206
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:41,500
Like, I mean, I know I tried on,
for example, like, you know, the

1207
00:55:41,500 --> 00:55:45,300
prime X and it just felt really 
not safe for me, right? 

1208
00:55:45,300 --> 00:55:47,600
I mean, I've heard it's fast, 
it's this, it's that, whatever, 

1209
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:50,100
but like, felt not safe. 
So, yeah, I'm not gonna wear it,

1210
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:51,600
right? 
Whereas some other shoe might 

1211
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:54,500
just feel really comfy or feel 
faster. 

1212
00:55:54,500 --> 00:55:57,000
Even though technically in a 
lab, it's maybe not testing us 

1213
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,700
fast like, I think that that's a
more interesting, kind of way to

1214
00:55:59,700 --> 00:56:02,500
look at it as like, what's the 
almost psychology? 

1215
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:05,500
You know, behind that, that 
perspective from the Run, think 

1216
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:07,200
the level of something we talked
about. 

1217
00:56:07,300 --> 00:56:11,900
About often. 
So we nerd out on physiology, we

1218
00:56:11,900 --> 00:56:14,700
entered on biomechanics and 
that's the world we live in, 

1219
00:56:14,700 --> 00:56:16,700
right? 
And but one of the things that 

1220
00:56:16,700 --> 00:56:19,000
we come back to because we're 
physical therapist, which means 

1221
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:21,000
we're clinicians who work with 
actual humans. 

1222
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:28,000
And so that's the really nice 
thing about being a PT is you 

1223
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:32,300
can have the shoe that gives you
the best numbers in the lab both

1224
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:36,900
biomechanically physiologically.
But as we know with lots of 

1225
00:56:36,900 --> 00:56:42,400
different In syndromes low back 
pain in particular how you 

1226
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,600
approach it? 
Mentally has a huge impact on 

1227
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,200
how you experience your low back
pain or function. 

1228
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:52,700
And so, in the same way, we 
talked about how you might be 

1229
00:56:52,700 --> 00:56:58,600
able to run in the vapor fly 3, 
and get a 3% running economy 

1230
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,000
benefit. 
But if you don't feel confident 

1231
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,600
or comfortable in that shoe, you
should probably just run in your

1232
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,900
adrenaline's if you love how 
they feel on. 

1233
00:57:06,900 --> 00:57:10,200
Your Foot because you might 
actually perform better, you 

1234
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,400
know performance is Time. 
Performance is not running 

1235
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:15,100
economy and we've had this 
conversation before, it's always

1236
00:57:15,100 --> 00:57:18,400
fun to talk to like we just 
actually interviewed we 

1237
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:20,500
mentioned Jeff Burns. 
He's exercise physiologist for 

1238
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,000
the u.s. paralympic and Olympic 
Committee. 

1239
00:57:23,100 --> 00:57:24,800
He's also a researcher at 
Michigan. 

1240
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,900
We also enter, talk to Justin 
dust and Joubert. 

1241
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:29,900
He's an exercise physiologist 
researcher. 

1242
00:57:30,300 --> 00:57:33,000
They have such an exercise 
physiology mind, so it's super 

1243
00:57:33,000 --> 00:57:35,200
fascinating to talk to them. 
You come from the other 

1244
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:39,500
perspective, not the other. 
Another perspective where it 

1245
00:57:39,500 --> 00:57:41,400
brings in a different, a 
different way of thinking about 

1246
00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:42,400
it. 
So, I love that. 

1247
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,000
That's what the podcast super 
fun for us because we get to 

1248
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:47,400
talk to different perspectives. 
So thanks for. 

1249
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:50,100
Thanks for sharing that those 
thoughts, for sure. 

1250
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:51,900
Yeah, no. 
I mean, I think you kind of 

1251
00:57:51,900 --> 00:57:54,300
totally totally hit it though. 
Like, those kind of things 

1252
00:57:54,300 --> 00:57:56,500
about, you know, whether it's 
like, you know, confidence or 

1253
00:57:56,500 --> 00:57:59,400
Comfort or like, they feel good.
I mean, you know, even when I 

1254
00:57:59,408 --> 00:58:01,700
was doing all the score of stuff
and I was like super minimal, 

1255
00:58:02,300 --> 00:58:04,700
you know, back then also like 
yeah you see I still see 

1256
00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:06,700
sometimes but I'm not so often 
like a people running in five 

1257
00:58:06,700 --> 00:58:09,800
and five Hers and stuff like 
they felt, you know, good about 

1258
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:15,100
it in some sort of way like you 
know that worked for them. 

1259
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,500
Right? 
And again, there isn't there at 

1260
00:58:16,900 --> 00:58:19,600
the end of the day, there isn't 
like one shoe for everybody and 

1261
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:22,900
I think that that's interesting 
and even another, you know, 

1262
00:58:22,900 --> 00:58:25,000
perfect example, I use all the 
time about. 

1263
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:27,200
It's not just being about the 
numbers or how things test in a 

1264
00:58:27,208 --> 00:58:32,200
lab is just the even existence 
of Val fly and the vapor fly, 

1265
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:35,600
right? 
You know, some people, probably,

1266
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:37,800
I mean, I would assume for this 
way, I would assume Alpha Phi, 

1267
00:58:37,800 --> 00:58:40,300
probably tests faster because 
that's kind of supposed to be, 

1268
00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:43,200
you know, the Next Generation 
but there's still people running

1269
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:46,900
in the paper fly because it 
feels better right for them, 

1270
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:50,300
right? 
Or works better for them, so 

1271
00:58:50,300 --> 00:58:53,500
it's not just about like, yeah. 
Okay, these are the numbers for 

1272
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:56,500
and even the whole idea of as 
you mentioned sort of like, what

1273
00:58:56,500 --> 00:58:59,200
does it do? 
You know physically, when you're

1274
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,500
not running, like how does it 
affect your body, or how does it

1275
00:59:01,508 --> 00:59:05,400
affect, you know, any incidents 
of injury or what? 

1276
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:08,600
Not like all those are kind of 
part of the Same kind of story, 

1277
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:11,600
you know, as to why people 
choose shoes that kind of work 

1278
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,100
for them, or don't or even what 
shoes are in the rotation, the 

1279
00:59:14,100 --> 00:59:15,200
right? 
Like that's the other way to 

1280
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:16,600
look at it. 
Like, I was saying before, where

1281
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:20,400
people don't just have kind of 
one shoe, you know, I think that

1282
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,300
that is also super key, right? 
Because you can't just kind of 

1283
00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:25,600
say, okay, this is the shoe for 
this person because like, they 

1284
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,600
probably don't only have that 
one shoe and they may not have 

1285
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,300
only one brand, right? 
So knowing where it fits in and 

1286
00:59:31,300 --> 00:59:34,400
why they're buying it, you know,
as a designer I always try to 

1287
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:37,700
like, you know, consider that 
and obviously, As a runner, 

1288
00:59:37,700 --> 00:59:39,400
that's the first thing I'm 
doing, I'm looking around, like,

1289
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,000
what are people wearing? 
So late. 

1290
00:59:42,000 --> 00:59:45,000
So you're you might be aware 
that this is on the same vein of

1291
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:45,700
the. 
You know what? 

1292
00:59:45,700 --> 00:59:48,200
The Run cat is the running 
assessment, the Comfort 

1293
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,400
assessment tool and I don't 
think that. 

1294
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:51,600
Don't think it sounds familiar 
know. 

1295
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:54,900
It's a it's it basically goes 
exactly in line with what you're

1296
00:59:54,900 --> 00:59:56,700
talking about where there's some
phenomenal people down in 

1297
00:59:56,700 --> 01:00:00,400
Australia, who looked at what is
what, things make the biggest 

1298
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,700
impact on how people perceive a 
shoe to be comfortable. 

1299
01:00:03,900 --> 01:00:07,100
And so they looked at it, they 
these amazing people took this. 

1300
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,200
This huge list of components and
they were able to Stats and 

1301
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,100
repeatedly testing the survey. 
Brought it down to like five 

1302
01:00:13,100 --> 01:00:14,900
things. 
I'm embarrassed, I can't try to 

1303
01:00:14,900 --> 01:00:18,600
get all of them correct but it's
how it feels in the rear foot. 

1304
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,200
How it feels feels in the 
forefoot and it's asked a 

1305
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,300
sliding scale. 
It's not like too soft to firm. 

1306
01:00:24,300 --> 01:00:28,300
It's like too soft. 
Just right too firm. 

1307
01:00:28,300 --> 01:00:32,600
Like there's a there's a line to
this and it was four foot heel 

1308
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:37,100
overall fit stability which was 
also too unstable. 

1309
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:39,700
Too rigid. 
So there was a sliding scale and

1310
01:00:39,700 --> 01:00:42,800
I think the last one was four 
foot flexibility. 

1311
01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:48,100
I think but they found that that
related far more to how like 

1312
01:00:48,100 --> 01:00:51,100
people choosing shoes rather 
than what makes you look by 

1313
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:53,000
mechanically best. 
Which the evidence is also 

1314
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,900
caught up with the go. 
You can have perfect mechanics 

1315
01:00:55,900 --> 01:00:57,600
with this shoe but that doesn't 
necessarily mean it's 

1316
01:00:57,600 --> 01:00:58,800
comfortable. 
You're not going to wear it, and

1317
01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:03,000
it is also not predictive of 
injuries which is very 

1318
01:01:03,000 --> 01:01:05,700
interesting with been own eggs, 
talk about, you know, the for 

1319
01:01:05,700 --> 01:01:07,100
Comfort scale and all that kind 
of stuff. 

1320
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:08,900
If so it sounds like you're 
sitting there going. 

1321
01:01:08,900 --> 01:01:11,400
Yeah, I already knew that 
because we're looking at like, 

1322
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,600
wow, how I'm trying to go, how 
do I make this person feel? 

1323
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:17,700
Which interestingly enough goes 
right into, are they going to 

1324
01:01:17,708 --> 01:01:20,400
wear this shoe potentially? 
What is the influence on injury?

1325
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:22,800
That's, that's pretty cool. 
You know, for sure. 

1326
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:25,100
But I think you know again, I'm 
not familiar with that that 

1327
01:01:25,500 --> 01:01:26,800
scale. 
I mean, it sounds kind of like 

1328
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:28,900
Anyway, obviously like, you 
know, where the parts that are 

1329
01:01:28,900 --> 01:01:31,200
right comfortable, all of them, 
all of them basically. 

1330
01:01:31,900 --> 01:01:34,300
But at the same time, I mean, I 
even, I know, like, even 

1331
01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:37,100
personally hand, I've talked to 
other people, you know, also 

1332
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:38,600
Find sometimes. 
It's the opposite of those 

1333
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,100
things, right? 
Like, I think sometimes people 

1334
01:01:40,100 --> 01:01:43,600
where the alpha flies, this is 
an example because they feel 

1335
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,200
weird, like, they don't really 
feel comfortable, and they don't

1336
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,000
feel, they feel too stiff, and 
they feel kind of like, you 

1337
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:50,900
know, not really mostly 
comfortable. 

1338
01:01:51,100 --> 01:01:54,300
So it feels more special because
of that, right? 

1339
01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:56,600
Or there's kind of stuff like 
that, right? 

1340
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,700
I mean, you know, obviously 
start to see what some of those 

1341
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:01,700
like super stack shoes as well 
like, you know, they feel 

1342
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:03,200
unstable. 
So it's like, okay, that's 

1343
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:04,700
psychology. 
Like, okay, I know that these 

1344
01:02:04,700 --> 01:02:06,900
are good, we know one of up to 
speed so it kind of keeps me 

1345
01:02:06,900 --> 01:02:09,900
running. 
A fast, there's so much kind of 

1346
01:02:09,900 --> 01:02:12,800
involved and I think that that's
also the really cool thing to 

1347
01:02:12,808 --> 01:02:15,300
understand. 
You know, from, you know, see I 

1348
01:02:15,300 --> 01:02:17,500
brought her design perspective, 
my kind of include everything in

1349
01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:20,300
design, you know, from from 
material to Geometry to like 

1350
01:02:20,300 --> 01:02:24,700
Aesthetics of like how to all 
those kind of work that is that 

1351
01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:26,700
no one's figured it out, right? 
Like, people have been making 

1352
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:29,700
running shoes for like a long 
time and even let's say talking 

1353
01:02:29,700 --> 01:02:33,200
about this generation of, you 
know, Super Shoes, you know, and

1354
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:36,000
kind of be on, you know, 
everyone still doing it 

1355
01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:39,300
differently and no one's I've 
like been like, okay, well, we 

1356
01:02:39,300 --> 01:02:40,900
know exactly what we're doing 
and this is, yeah, it has to be 

1357
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:43,000
like this shape and this 
geometry, and this density in 

1358
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,100
this durometer, and this Reno 
rebound, whatever, and that's 

1359
01:02:45,100 --> 01:02:46,200
it. 
And okay, this is perfect. 

1360
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:48,600
And we're done like everyone's 
doing it differently, all the 

1361
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:51,200
different brands and sometimes 
it's just, you know, that 

1362
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,400
tweaking of the one different 
thing that makes it feel totally

1363
01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:56,700
totally different. 
I mean, I just, for example, 

1364
01:02:56,700 --> 01:03:01,500
Iran just a week ago or so, I 
got a pair of the Saucony Elite 

1365
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,800
and, you know, I was just really
surprised that like, the feeling

1366
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:09,800
in those felt. 
So, So different than, you know,

1367
01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,300
the Alpha Phi, Vapor fly the 
middle speed Sky. 

1368
01:03:13,700 --> 01:03:16,300
You know, the new balance RC 
Elite 3. 

1369
01:03:16,300 --> 01:03:18,500
Those are some that I have kind 
of right now that you think all 

1370
01:03:18,500 --> 01:03:19,900
those should be the same like 
they're all around the same 

1371
01:03:19,900 --> 01:03:22,000
price point they all have 
basically the same kind of 

1372
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:24,900
Technology supercritical phones,
carbon, fiber plates but you 

1373
01:03:24,908 --> 01:03:27,500
know just something different 
about, you know, the geometry or

1374
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:30,200
the density or whatever. 
I haven't chopped it up or 

1375
01:03:30,208 --> 01:03:31,900
anything like that to know. 
Or, you know or what the 

1376
01:03:31,908 --> 01:03:34,900
ingredients are. 
It felt to me like extra fast 

1377
01:03:34,900 --> 01:03:36,500
and I felt the turnover felt 
different. 

1378
01:03:36,500 --> 01:03:43,200
I felt I do more at ease or 
whatever add Pace, but it's 

1379
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:47,000
could be any combination of all 
these different factors and 

1380
01:03:47,000 --> 01:03:48,800
that's kind of what makes it 
interesting that's why I say you

1381
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,200
know it's there's always another
shoe like in you can always try 

1382
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,300
something out and you try some 
combination of whatever A/B 

1383
01:03:54,300 --> 01:03:56,000
Testing when you're doing 
development but there's always 

1384
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,500
all these other kind of factors 
and there's no way you can even 

1385
01:03:59,500 --> 01:04:02,700
with technology even if like if 
you analysis on Geometry and 

1386
01:04:02,700 --> 01:04:05,000
whatnot figure everything about 
and dial them in and be like 

1387
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:06,000
okay that's it. 
We're done we never have 

1388
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:09,000
designed the other shoe. 
So that keeps me in business but

1389
01:04:10,800 --> 01:04:14,900
it's it's, yeah, it's cool. 
That's great. 

1390
01:04:15,400 --> 01:04:19,000
I think we have two more 
questions for you before we wrap

1391
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,100
up one of them. 
So first question is, where do 

1392
01:04:22,108 --> 01:04:24,500
you think Trends are going, 
what's next? 

1393
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:27,700
And then we just got to ask you,
what your favorite shoe is right

1394
01:04:27,700 --> 01:04:29,500
now. 
So, and you may have already 

1395
01:04:29,500 --> 01:04:32,600
said it, I got one in my head 
that you've talked about but but

1396
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,100
we're what, what's coming next? 
What's the next Trend? 

1397
01:04:35,100 --> 01:04:38,500
That's we have to pay me for no.
That's what I think is like. 

1398
01:04:38,500 --> 01:04:40,400
He's gonna get his Secrets away 
on this one. 

1399
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:43,800
I don't know. 
No, honestly like it. 

1400
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:47,000
Yeah, it really depends. 
I always say, you know, that I 

1401
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:48,800
would say, it really depends. 
But like, I would say it really 

1402
01:04:48,800 --> 01:04:51,000
depends on sort of what. 
Again, the question is being 

1403
01:04:51,000 --> 01:04:52,800
asked, and you know what's kind 
of coming? 

1404
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:56,200
Next depends on sort of what 
brand is asking that question, 

1405
01:04:56,200 --> 01:04:57,900
what categories asking the 
question? 

1406
01:04:58,500 --> 01:05:00,800
Because there's not one thing I 
think at the end of day, that 

1407
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,200
that's kind of the big takeaway.
And that's kind of how I look at

1408
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:04,700
it. 
And it's said, why I always kind

1409
01:05:04,700 --> 01:05:08,300
of focus on that research, you 
know, and brand Apart, even with

1410
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:10,400
strategy kind of upfront is to 
kind of figure out because 

1411
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:13,700
what's next for, you know, you 
always say thank you. 

1412
01:05:13,700 --> 01:05:17,000
But like, whatever Adidas let's 
say or whatever is going to be 

1413
01:05:17,008 --> 01:05:19,400
very different than what's next 
for, you know, some new brand 

1414
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:21,800
that might kind of, you know, 
want to want to launch a shoe 

1415
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:25,300
because what they can do is 
different than a big brand or, 

1416
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:29,000
you know, again, what kind of 
category like, you know, we talk

1417
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,600
a lot about Racing shoes and 
super shoes and all that but 

1418
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,300
like there's other issues out 
there that I think a lot of 

1419
01:05:33,300 --> 01:05:36,400
interesting stuff is happening. 
So what's next in trail? 

1420
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:37,900
Maybe. 
Very different than what's 

1421
01:05:37,900 --> 01:05:41,200
happening, you know, on a 
marathon shoot or attend case 

1422
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:43,600
you or a spike or something like
that. 

1423
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,100
So yeah, there's a there's no 
one thing. 

1424
01:05:47,100 --> 01:05:51,000
And I think that that's kind of 
what's kind of cool about it is 

1425
01:05:51,000 --> 01:05:54,100
like asking that, right? 
Like that specific question of 

1426
01:05:54,100 --> 01:05:58,200
like what's next in blank for 
blank at this blank time in this

1427
01:05:58,200 --> 01:06:00,100
blank, kind of constraints. 
You know, that's sort of the 

1428
01:06:00,100 --> 01:06:02,700
design brief of the design 
process, you know, that's, 

1429
01:06:02,700 --> 01:06:06,000
that's the fun part is figuring 
out for my students that sounded

1430
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,600
like a Pico Esther like learning
to ask better questions so for 

1431
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,300
the other listening. 
So the talk with you about 

1432
01:06:12,300 --> 01:06:14,200
learning to ask better 
questions, that's the most 

1433
01:06:14,200 --> 01:06:19,200
important part to start, right? 
It is it is honestly because 

1434
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:22,500
yeah, if you, if you ask, you 
know, if you ask the wrong 

1435
01:06:22,500 --> 01:06:24,300
question, you can just, you 
know, you may get the right 

1436
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:26,800
answer to the wrong question. 
And that's, you know, that's 

1437
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,100
doesn't help anyone, right? 
It's like, you know, and design 

1438
01:06:30,100 --> 01:06:33,100
school used to always say like 
there's there's a was it like 

1439
01:06:33,100 --> 01:06:36,900
there's, you know, good design 
and there's her. 

1440
01:06:37,200 --> 01:06:38,700
Design. 
Like if you have, you know, a 

1441
01:06:38,708 --> 01:06:40,800
good design. 
But as to the wrong question, 

1442
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,900
you know, it doesn't help right 
if the design brief design a 

1443
01:06:43,900 --> 01:06:47,700
chair and you design a sofa and 
maybe an amazing sofa but you 

1444
01:06:47,708 --> 01:06:50,500
know, it doesn't fit the needs 
of Designing a chair, it's it 

1445
01:06:50,500 --> 01:06:52,500
doesn't apply, right? 
So asking the right question and

1446
01:06:52,500 --> 01:06:55,600
having the right reply to that 
kind of question is, is kind of?

1447
01:06:55,600 --> 01:06:57,600
Yeah, that's that's half the 
challenge, right, cool. 

1448
01:06:58,200 --> 01:06:59,900
All right. 
So, final question, they'll let 

1449
01:06:59,900 --> 01:07:02,800
Matt rep the wrap us up but 
favorite shoe. 

1450
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,800
Favorite favorite, favorite 
shoe. 

1451
01:07:06,100 --> 01:07:07,700
Favorite shoe overall. 
And actually it's funny. 

1452
01:07:07,700 --> 01:07:11,400
I've been me to take a whole 
another video about this because

1453
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:13,200
like yeah this is always like in
my head. 

1454
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,500
I mean every time I do a run I'm
trying to think about like you 

1455
01:07:15,500 --> 01:07:18,400
know what to talk about and and 
usually it's like looking down 

1456
01:07:18,700 --> 01:07:20,500
at what I'm wearing. 
It kind of gives me inspiration.

1457
01:07:20,700 --> 01:07:25,900
I have to say it's the not 
vaporfi, the zoom fly flying it 

1458
01:07:26,500 --> 01:07:30,400
so that was the second 
generation of the zoom fly. 

1459
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:32,700
All right the first one had the 
engineered match. 

1460
01:07:32,700 --> 01:07:35,100
The first one was like the light
blue with the red and stuff like

1461
01:07:35,100 --> 01:07:36,500
that. 
And the second one looks like 

1462
01:07:36,500 --> 01:07:37,700
lots of color. 
What not? 

1463
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:40,700
But like, yeah, that far and 
away is my favorite. 

1464
01:07:40,700 --> 01:07:43,300
I still probably have 20 pairs 
of them. 

1465
01:07:43,700 --> 01:07:45,900
I probably had gone through 
probably 40 of them. 

1466
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,700
If you look at my strap. 
I think I haven't changed my 

1467
01:07:48,700 --> 01:07:50,200
shoes since. 
So, it's still around like 

1468
01:07:50,500 --> 01:07:54,000
12,000 kilometers on one pair of
those, but that's not true. 

1469
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:57,900
But yeah, it's one of those 
shoes again that like talk about

1470
01:07:57,900 --> 01:07:59,800
sort of like feeling and kind of
what you can use it for. 

1471
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,900
I just feel like super confident
and a feel, it fits kind of 

1472
01:08:02,900 --> 01:08:06,000
everything, it's like soft 
enough and comfy enough for you 

1473
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,400
know. 
Like recovery days. 

1474
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:12,400
It's like fastest got the, the 
carbon Infuse plate. 

1475
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:16,100
The nylon plate or whatever. 
For like speed work, it's really

1476
01:08:16,100 --> 01:08:17,899
comfy. 
Like I'm a sucker for like, sock

1477
01:08:17,899 --> 01:08:20,700
fit and it just like fits, you 
know, if it's my foot at least 

1478
01:08:20,700 --> 01:08:26,200
you know really, really well. 
I yeah, I just like when they 

1479
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:28,300
first discontinue them, I would 
just like go to the outlet is by

1480
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:32,300
like every single one in my size
and I even had people like, you 

1481
01:08:32,300 --> 01:08:34,300
know, buy them in the states for
me and like, you know, ship them

1482
01:08:34,300 --> 01:08:36,399
up or bring them to me. 
Like if when I couldn't find 

1483
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:38,800
them here. 
I just yeah, I love that. 

1484
01:08:38,899 --> 01:08:40,899
That's you. 
And it's nothing special per say

1485
01:08:40,899 --> 01:08:43,899
about it but it's just again, 
all those combinations, right? 

1486
01:08:44,100 --> 01:08:48,000
That's literally Andrea on our 
team has bought out like every 

1487
01:08:48,000 --> 01:08:50,500
Beacon. 
She come by so New Balance 

1488
01:08:50,500 --> 01:08:53,500
Beacon, is her Zoom fly. 
Flying it. 

1489
01:08:53,899 --> 01:08:56,200
So that's awesome. 
Matt, you can, you can wrap this

1490
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:58,100
up here. 
Orchard, thank you so much for 

1491
01:08:58,100 --> 01:09:00,700
having a for coming on. 
This was a phenomenal episode. 

1492
01:09:00,700 --> 01:09:01,800
We're really hoping to have you 
back. 

1493
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:05,000
If there's there's some 
conversation pieces that like 

1494
01:09:05,000 --> 01:09:06,399
this could have gone on for 
hours. 

1495
01:09:06,399 --> 01:09:08,300
So we're definitely Going to be 
back as there's a lot more 

1496
01:09:08,300 --> 01:09:11,500
things to talk about in terms of
diving into what I think all 

1497
01:09:11,500 --> 01:09:13,800
three of us and all of us really
passionate about is, what's 

1498
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,399
going into the stump? 
What's going to the stuff that 

1499
01:09:15,399 --> 01:09:17,899
we put on our feet. 
So, thank you very much again 

1500
01:09:18,100 --> 01:09:20,399
for coming on, please. 
You can find Richard in a 

1501
01:09:20,399 --> 01:09:23,200
variety of places, obviously 
when the most direct places on 

1502
01:09:23,399 --> 01:09:25,600
the website called the directive
Collective. 

1503
01:09:25,899 --> 01:09:28,200
You also just some phenomenal 
stuff on Instagram where there's

1504
01:09:28,200 --> 01:09:30,000
a lot of the videos that you 
post that. 

1505
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:31,800
I have learned a ton from 
watching in terms of the 

1506
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:34,500
elements behind design, talking 
about different shoes that are 

1507
01:09:34,508 --> 01:09:36,300
out there right now going. 
Hey, how is this influence? 

1508
01:09:36,300 --> 01:09:39,300
I would encourage. 
All of you follow Richard on at 

1509
01:09:39,300 --> 01:09:43,000
direct Collective on IG, on the 
same, the same name for the 

1510
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:46,200
website, you have your own 
personal account which is our 

1511
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:49,500
kids, ski all great places to 
learn from saprissa, please 

1512
01:09:49,500 --> 01:09:52,100
follow him there. 
And any of those spots, if 

1513
01:09:52,100 --> 01:09:54,300
you're interested in the further
stuff that we doing, we can also

1514
01:09:54,300 --> 01:09:56,600
be found on any of the social 
media sites, you're always 

1515
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:58,100
interested in. 
Obviously, you can find the 

1516
01:09:58,108 --> 01:10:03,900
podcast on major channels. 
We're on YouTube or on LinkedIn,

1517
01:10:03,900 --> 01:10:06,300
which is continue to grow. 
All, kudos to block on that one.

1518
01:10:06,300 --> 01:10:10,200
I Can't believe how much that's 
blown up, Instagram, Twitter, 

1519
01:10:10,200 --> 01:10:12,100
all kinds of plays. 
So follow us, we're all doing 

1520
01:10:12,100 --> 01:10:14,200
great, things we're all putting 
out great content. 

1521
01:10:14,300 --> 01:10:15,700
Stick around. 
We're always going to have new 

1522
01:10:15,700 --> 01:10:18,600
stuff, but Richard, thanks again
and we will talk to you soon. 

1523
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:20,400
Thanks for having me. 
Yes, been great chatting with 

1524
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:22,600
you guys and I'd love to do this
again. 

1525
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,300
I yeah, talk about using a 
running for a long time. 

1526
01:10:26,300 --> 01:10:28,300
I was to thank you. 
Thank you.