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Everyone and welcome to the 
Doctors Running podcast, where 

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we, a group of doctors, physical
therapy, talk about the art and 

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the science of the things that 
we put on our feet today. 

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I'm honored to have Doctor David
Sloss and Doctor Brown with me. 

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I'm of course, and Matt. 
And we are going to have an 

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episode that is going to be a 
little surprising for Nathan and

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David because they actually have
no idea what I'm about ready to 

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do, which is exactly how I love 
operating where nobody knows 

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that's so scared, which is 
typical of my improvisation, 

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which hasn't really come out a 
lot on this podcast. 

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Let me cut in for let me cut in 
for a second earlier today. 

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Matt says, wait, I got an idea. 
I'll lead it tonight. 

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And we're like what he's like 
you'll find out when we're 

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recording. 
So literally the only thing Matt

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told us was go, go grab a couple
shoes and we're like, OK, he's 

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like all right, here we go. 
And so now we're. 

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We're here and then we log on 
and like hey Matt, what's up? 

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And he's like then he just lays 
in like 3 pun jokes at us and 

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then it's like all right, we're 
recording. 

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Time to record. 
I should have thrown you guys 

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off more, but had like way more 
like inappropriate jokes and 

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like like set you guys like on 
like really a lot of tension 

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going into this, but it won't be
that bad. 

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I think I'm like. 
Is it we're just, is this your 

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stand up special? 
Is that what we're here for? 

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Yeah, this is going to be my 
stand up special. 

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I'm going to really lay in New 
Balance. 

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If you're listening the joke 
about the more versus the less 

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series, I'm going to like double
down on this right now. 

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And if you haven't heard that 
joke before, you should go 

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listen other episodes because 
it's fire. 

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Anyway, the purpose of tonight 
is actually serious. 

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And so we talk a lot about 
things related to footwear and 

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finding optimal shoes for you. 
We talk a lot about things like 

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the run cat scale. 
We talk a lot about trying to 

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help people understand how their
own bodies are unique and that 

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one shoe is not going to fit 
everyone and there is no such 

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thing as the best shoe, but 
there might be some better shoes

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for you as an individual. 
So tonight I thought it would be

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or today or whatever time you're
listening to this. 

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I that would be interesting to 
have the three of us and 

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especially these two go through 
what they look for when they're 

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trying to find a shoe that 
really works for them. 

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We're in a very privileged 
position where we get to test a 

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lot of stuff and have a lot of 
stuff coming at us. 

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But when it actually comes to 
like race day, for example, or 

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really going out on training 
runs where we actually want to 

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enjoy things, I really wanted to
explore what that looked like 

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because we spent so much time 
talking to talk to you about it.

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I wanted to have a little deeper
look into how we do this. 

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So this is as. 
Bad as I thought it was going. 

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To be What did you think I was 
going to do? 

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I I just had no idea but I I 
feel like I could do this I 

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think. 
OK, got it. 

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See what did you need that to 
you need to prep for this. 

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You're going to be fine, right? 
You're. 

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Good, I grabbed some like deep 
cuts from like a long time ago. 

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Like sweet. 
So all I told them was grab some

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shoes that you've really enjoyed
either previously or currently 

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because I want to know, I want 
to help our listeners figure out

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the process that you all go 
through when you're actually 

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trying to find something you 
want to run in. 

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There's a difference between 
when you're testing something, 

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which sometimes you are going to
want to run it, sometimes you're

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absolutely not. 
And we still get miles on it. 

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But I want to help people figure
out what that process and kind 

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of demo that so they actually 
have a better idea of what the 

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actual process looks like for 
all of us. 

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Sound good? 
All right, so we are going to 

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start with a simple question. 
When you are looking for a 

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shoot, not for testing purposes,
you've either got a race coming 

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up, you've got 1/2 marathon, 
you've got a marathon, you've 

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got some race, or you've got a 
longer train run. 

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You're like, I don't really want
to be testing something right 

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now. 
I really want to put something 

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on that I can trust. 
When you're going through that 

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process, does the Run Cat play 
any role in making that 

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decision? 
For those that are new, the Run 

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Cat is the Running Comfort 
assessment tool, which we talked

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about quite a bit. 
That's got a couple different 

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domains that's supposed to help 
people figure out based on 

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comfort, which is the one of the
biggest predictive factors of 

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whether shoes going to work for 
you. 

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It's got a couple areas 
including stiffness, stability, 

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like like rigid flexibility and 
things like that, that we've 

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talked about before, but we 
reference it a lot. 

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But how does that influence your
initial decisions? 

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Or does it? 
That's a great question. 

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I think if people are interested
in hearing more, Matt, you did a

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solo episode on the Run Cat, so 
you should be able to go in our 

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archive and find some details. 
I would say that there are a 

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couple factors within the Run 
Cat that I instinctively go 

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towards. 
I wouldn't say I pull out my run

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cat and make my decisions based 
off of it, but there are a 

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couple things. 
Primarily for me, the things 

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that I'm like, oh, I want a shoe
that I like. 

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It's just a longer run right 
now. 

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It's like anything an hour or 
over for me, it feels longer 

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right now and that's when I'm 
going to a shoe that I'm really 

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going to trust. 
And I would say that the two 

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main things that I'm looking for
right now is the feeling of four

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foot cushioning and the amount 
of space in the toe box. 

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So I want to make sure I have 
enough room partially because of

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what I've been dealing with with
my toe. 

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But then I really have found 
that I like it just right 

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balance of the cushioning in the
forefoot, which I think is 

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paired with something that's not
directly assessed in the run 

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cat, which is the rocker 
profile. 

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And the stiffness in the front, 
I think is not exactly hit with 

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the run cat. 
Matt, you can correct me if I'm 

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wrong, but I think mostly that 
cushioning in the forefoot is 

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what I look for. 
And I I like a lot of four foot 

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cushiony. 
I don't want it to be plush, but

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I like that kind of like medium 
kind of on the firmer end of 

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soft. 
And I like to be able to feel it

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in the forefoot with a little 
bit of a rocker, but I want it 

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to have some flexibility to it. 
So that's the run cat does guide

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me and I would say though, but 
not with the run cat in front of

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me, but instinctively those 
aspects of it I go toward. 

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David, what about you? 
Yeah, I'm going to be entirely 

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honest, I can't remember the 
last time I've run a run cat on 

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any shoe that I've worn. 
You know, it's been a while, you

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know, But with that said, 
looking at it from a subjective 

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standpoint, a lot of the things 
that it attempts to do, I do 

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resonate with some of those 
metrics. 

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And like how you're saying like 
4 foot flexibility and they 

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don't really have rocker 
profile, whatever, that's fine. 

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But the general idea of having 
something that's comfortable on 

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your foot that you trust that. 
And again, like you said, we're 

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fortunate to have so many shoes 
and like when you have as large 

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of a pool to pull from that we 
do, you start to get a sense of 

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what you like. 
And in those situations, that's 

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when I do gravitate towards 
things that I am more 

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comfortable with. 
And in some ways that should 

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parallel some of the metrics 
that are on said run cat when I 

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have so many different usages, I
feel like for my shoes. 

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And so it's a hard question to 
answer because when I look at 

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daily running, I'm, I'm a little
bit boring. 

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I, I like a little I'm, I'm very
moderate. 

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I feel like like if you give me 
the most. 

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You want a GT2000. 
I want a GT2000 and the year 

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before that or right 16 you know
and like the. 

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Ran Turismo 2000, by the way. 
Yeah, I was right on that too. 

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I called that. 
I was like, oh, I think Grand 

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Tour like a car. 
And we were right. 

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Or I was right. 
We reached out to ASICS to find 

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out what the GT actually stood 
for because we had a couple 

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ideas and we just wanted to 
confirm and so we learned. 

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Yeah. 
But it's what's that? 

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So what I'm hearing from, I will
get into the individual 

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components in just a second, but
what I'm hearing from both of 

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you is that Nathan, for example,
you're saying yes, maybe not 

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exactly, but that's that, you 
know, and I am following certain

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parts of it, whether 
intentionally or 

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unintentionally. 
There's things that I just look 

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out for that happened to match 
what that kind of goes through. 

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And David, you're exactly the 
same. 

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We're not exactly the same, but 
you're saying I really, I don't 

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necessarily think I'm going to 
go through the categories, but 

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you're like the things that I'm 
looking for anyway just happen 

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to line up with that. 
And the reason I bring this up 

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as we talk about this, but you 
don't have to live and die by 

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this. 
It's not like this is the end 

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all be. 
It's a great tool and I think 

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it's especially effective for 
the newer runner who you're 

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going to get very overwhelmed by
all the different metrics that 

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advertise the things coming at 
you. 

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And to be honest, I think shoes 
today are kind of crazy. 

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Like when you put your, if you 
hadn't ever tried a running shoe

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and you put half of the stuff 
that's out there on your foot, 

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you'd be like, this is a lot of 
stimulus. 

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Like I don't even know what to 
think about this. 

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So I think the new runner is 
going to be very helpful using 

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this as a guide. 
But as you progress, you will 

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find unique things that really 
work out for you. 

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And that will still likely be 
pieces of this, but it doesn't 

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mean you have to really stick to
that. 

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But you'll find things that work
for you. 

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But I think it's a great place 
to start and create a foundation

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to build off of what works for 
you. 

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I think to your point about 
shoes these days feeling crazy, 

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if you're listening to this 
podcast, you're probably like, 

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do they really though? 
But I have a friend who just ran

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his first marathon yesterday and
he had he didn't start running 

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until January. 
And so he came to me in January 

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and said, my friend convinced me
to sign up for a marathon. 

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And my first question to him 
after I signed up was, wait, how

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far is this? 
That's how much he knew about 

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running. 
So then he he spent the whole 

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year trained and he he ran 
awesome, but part way into the 

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summer, so he had when he had 
like four months left, he's 

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like, I it's time for me to get 
a new shoe. 

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What should I get? 
I told him a couple options of 

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what he could consider. 
He ended up buying the endorphin

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speed. 
And before that he was running 

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in the Brooks revel. 
He was running in a Brooks 

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launch. 
He had one other shoe. 

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Oh, like the Nike peg nature, I 
think it's called, or whatever. 

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So he had, he had a number of 
options and he, he got those 

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shoes and he took them 
out-of-the-box and before he 

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even put them on his feet, he's 
like, is this even real? 

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Because it felt so light. 
It was like, he's like, is this 

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just going to break in my hand? 
He's like, is this even going to

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hold up? 
And then he texted me, he put 

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them on and he ran in them the 
next day and he's like, it feels

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like I'm being vaulted forwards.
And I think that when you've 

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been in the running shoe geek 
space for long enough and you've

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ran in these shoes, we forget 
how different they are from 

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other footwear that are a little
bit more traditional in the in 

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running. 
And so it's just you. 

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I, I think you're spot on with 
that consideration, Matt, of 

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like what, what should we be 
looking for? 

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And maybe the Runcad is a tool, 
but I also think that it does 

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miss that propulsive rocker like
that won't get hit with the run 

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cat as it currently stands. 
David, any thoughts? 

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Yeah, shoes are crazy. 
I mean, honestly though, right? 

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Like, I mean, you think about 
it, wasn't that. 

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I guess it's been a little bit 
of time now what? 

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Vaporfly debuted in 2016. 
20/16/2017 Yeah. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
And then you look forward to 

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3:00-ish years by the time you 
actually start seeing other 

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00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,280
product on the market that are 
kind of starting in the match 

223
00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,120
it. 
And I remember actually, it's 

224
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,240
funny you bring up Endorphin 
speed because I remember 

225
00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,760
specifically putting on 
Endorphin Speed 1 and Endorphin 

226
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:18,400
Pro 2 for the first Endorphin 
Pro one for the first time and 

227
00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,520
feeling like, whoa, this is 
different, you know, and I 

228
00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,400
didn't, I hadn't had a vapor fly
to that point. 

229
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,720
I don't believe. 
I don't, I didn't have the 

230
00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:31,560
original 4% at that time You had
you did give me one model of the

231
00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:36,880
fly knit version of it. 
And then there was also the next

232
00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:40,480
percent which had just come out,
I think right around that time. 

233
00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,240
And I hadn't had my hands on 
that either. 

234
00:11:42,680 --> 00:11:45,600
And I just remember being like, 
this is this is crazy. 

235
00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,200
You know, like that propulsive 
feeling, how light it was, how 

236
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,080
soft it was once you put on your
foot. 

237
00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,200
Like I just took a step walking 
and being like, what the heck is

238
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:55,560
this? 
You know? 

239
00:11:55,560 --> 00:11:59,480
And now Fast forward, you know, 
several years later and it's 

240
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,200
like, oh, it's like, and again, 
we're very fortunate to be in 

241
00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:04,440
the position that we are in, but
you get a shoe and you put it on

242
00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,880
and you're like, oh, yeah, this 
feels like this shoe. 

243
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:09,680
Oh yeah, this feels like that. 
Like, oh, this is reminiscent of

244
00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:12,120
that. 
Like it's not like this novel 

245
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,680
experience that we get anymore 
on some of this newer 

246
00:12:14,680 --> 00:12:16,840
technology. 
And like, that's not just the 

247
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:19,360
racing models. 
Like there's so many high step 

248
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,440
like these super trainers, these
crazy stacks, like crazy 

249
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,480
compliant, bouncy plated hyper 
rocker shoes. 

250
00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,520
Like that was not around that 
long ago. 

251
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,640
And so especially if you're 
going, if you're new to running,

252
00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,480
especially like if you're used 
to just walking around in Vans 

253
00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,480
and like normal shoes and then 
you go and you put one of those 

254
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,080
things on, you genuinely feel 
like you're in moon boots. 

255
00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,120
And that's what a lot of people 
just that that's usually the 

256
00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:44,560
word they say a lot of times, 
like I feel like I'm in moon 

257
00:12:44,560 --> 00:12:46,960
boots. 
And yeah, it's it's. 

258
00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:49,960
To tie it. 
Oh no, it's just, it's just a 

259
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,440
novel experience and it, and it 
genuinely is a wild experience 

260
00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,040
for a lot of people if they 
aren't in that space already. 

261
00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:00,080
Yeah, I think another shoe in 
the training sphere, when I 

262
00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,200
first tried it on, I felt like I
was going to fall on my face, 

263
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,200
was the original Glide ride. 
And that was an early adopter of

264
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,640
these training shoes with a 
pretty significant stiffer 

265
00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,680
rocker because they had the 
plastic plate in there. 

266
00:13:12,680 --> 00:13:16,000
And I just remember putting it 
on and be like, whoa, what is 

267
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,680
going on? 
And I did a 10 Miller. 

268
00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:20,680
My first run in that shoe was a 
10, 10 Miller and it was like 

269
00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:22,360
the fastest 10 mile I've ever 
done. 

270
00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,560
And I hadn't learned how to run 
in the shoe yet. 

271
00:13:24,560 --> 00:13:27,760
I feel like I didn't learn how 
to run in rocker, stiffer rocker

272
00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,280
shoes. 
And now I put on these crazy 

273
00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,040
stiff rocker shoes and I'm like,
oh, OK, I know how to run in 

274
00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:34,360
this. 
But I think that there was an 

275
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,960
adoption period to figure out 
what that was like. 

276
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:41,800
But now, you know, it makes me 
think about our reviews too, and

277
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,240
how we talk about our rocker 
profiles and how aggressive it 

278
00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,600
feels. 
And it depends on who the person

279
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,120
is probably coming to the shoe 
and if they're used to rockers 

280
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,960
or not. 
Because if they're not the more 

281
00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:56,400
mild rocker, which I would call 
the Endorphin Speed 4, like a 

282
00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:59,560
little bit more mild in 
comparison to some of these 

283
00:13:59,560 --> 00:14:02,440
other ones that exist. 
But then my friend has this 

284
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,320
like, holy cow, what is this, 
like rocket on my foot that's 

285
00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:11,080
just pushing me forward? 
There's a lot of subjectivity in

286
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,080
there. 
And this is something that we 

287
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,760
are constantly trying to figure 
out how to better communicate to

288
00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:17,920
anybody that reads or listen to 
our views. 

289
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:20,400
Because we are acutely aware 
that our sample size of what 

290
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,520
we've tested is quite large. 
And those that don't have a lot 

291
00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,600
of our current experience are 
going to have very different, 

292
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,800
different sensory experience 
with putting some of the stuff 

293
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,600
on compared to those who have 
run extensively is in it, which 

294
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:35,160
is still exciting. 
We get something we're like, 

295
00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,640
woah, like what is this? 
This is there's only an end of 

296
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:39,640
one here. 
Like what? 

297
00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,560
So it's if that doesn't happen 
as often, but it's cool and it 

298
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,280
does, but that's that's off 
topic. 

299
00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:49,000
So what I'm hoping to do is 
piece by piece and I will 

300
00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,360
acknowledge that I know we don't
necessarily think exactly like 

301
00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,560
this, but subconsciously I think
this is still happening. 

302
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,600
I like to go through piece by 
piece parts of the shoe and 

303
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,720
talked and have you both talk us
through what you are looking for

304
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,160
when you put a shoe on? 
How do you know if it's 

305
00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,920
something that's going to work 
for you or if it's going to be 

306
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:07,920
something that's going to be 
struggle or if because you're 

307
00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,000
like this is I just can't run in
this how I want to be able to 

308
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,720
pick apart how you get through 
and process this stuff to give 

309
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:17,960
the listeners a better and 
viewers a better idea of the 

310
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,000
process that you have developed 
over time with this much 

311
00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,280
experience. 
So let's start with the upper. 

312
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,160
The major reason for the upper 
is if you are typically when 

313
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:28,000
you're trying shoes on, if 
you're in a store, if you're at 

314
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,200
home, typically you're going to 
put them on while you're 

315
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:31,640
sitting. 
Not many people put them on the 

316
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:33,320
standing. 
I'm not judging if you do, but 

317
00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,960
the first thing you're going to 
feel is how they fit. 

318
00:15:36,280 --> 00:15:40,040
So if you don't mind, one of you
start and talk us through when 

319
00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,040
you put the shoe on, what are 
you looking for? 

320
00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:47,240
When that gets on your foot, in 
terms of the heel, midfoot, 

321
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:51,320
forefoot, the width, the volume,
whatever metrics you use, 

322
00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,120
however quickly it is, talk us 
through what that looks like 

323
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,320
when you put something on. 
I think one of the big things 

324
00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,880
that I look at for fit is, as 
David knows, I'm a lace snob, 

325
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,200
so. 
It doesn't say tongue snob. 

326
00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:05,520
And I'm a tongue snob. 
I was. 

327
00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,080
Going to put a little jab in 
there if I went first, I'm not 

328
00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,200
going to lie. 
I'm not judging at all. 

329
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,280
I'm definitely a tongue snob. 
If it's not gusseted, if it's 

330
00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,960
not the right thickness like I'm
I'm upset. 

331
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:16,880
I totally. 
Get it? 

332
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,120
No, but I think one of the one 
of the main things from the heel

333
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,800
perspective is I don't like 
something that my heel can get 

334
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,720
lost in. 
So if it's really, really padded

335
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,760
and I don't have, I pick shoes 
that I like. 

336
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,200
So I don't, I don't have any 
here that have the extreme 

337
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,880
padding, but I'm thinking back 
to like, I think it was the gel 

338
00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:41,600
Nimbus 24, super padded heel, 
but then it had a super thin 

339
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,280
tongue and it felt really like I
couldn't get my foot to like be 

340
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,760
where it should be in the heel. 
So that fit is important to me. 

341
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,360
I like just a very moderate 
amount of cushioning. 

342
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:54,880
And then I think the other big 
thing is I want to be able to 

343
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,320
like pull the laces and when I 
pull the laces, my foot feels 

344
00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:00,520
secure. 
I, I don't like to have to mess 

345
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,080
with it, which is what my 
biggest issue was with the 

346
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,640
Adidas Boston 12 because the 
lacing system was, it's weird. 

347
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:10,599
And so I had to really play with
it to get my foot to lock in and

348
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,319
it just didn't feel comfortable.
So for like training days, I 

349
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,119
want to slide it in and just 
feel like my foot's exactly 

350
00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,119
where it needs to be. 
All I need to do is pull on 

351
00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,319
those top 2 laces or just cinch 
up a little bit and it feels 

352
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:23,040
good. 
Usually that means like a 

353
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,760
moderate amount of cushioning 
through the heel. 

354
00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,240
I'm OK with a heel counter. 
It doesn't bug me if there is 

355
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,840
one or if there if there's one 
that's a little bit more soft. 

356
00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,720
And then my the tongue width 
that's ideal for me is thin, but

357
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,320
with some level of padding. 
So I would like this. 

358
00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:40,800
The Nova Blast 5 has a good 
amount of padding. 

359
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:46,360
And then this one, the Elios 
from 361 has a little bit more 

360
00:17:46,360 --> 00:17:48,920
padding in the tongue. 
Both of those are solid. 

361
00:17:49,120 --> 00:17:52,480
They're both gusseted. 
And then the other big thing for

362
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,640
fit is again for me in the 
forefoot. 

363
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:58,280
I don't want any squeezes from 
the sides, which most shoes 

364
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:02,160
don't result in a lot of 
squeezing for me, but there have

365
00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,280
been some in this past year that
the volume has been so low. 

366
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,400
Just at like what? 
I don't know if this is called 

367
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,320
the throat or the outlet or 
whatever it's called, but like 

368
00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,880
right as the shoe transitions 
from the end of the laces into 

369
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:18,200
the toe box, if that's tight 
over your foot, you can't adjust

370
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,480
that area and there's usually 
not as much stretch. 

371
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,880
So for me, I just want to make 
sure that I don't, I just 

372
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:26,320
shouldn't feel anything there. 
So big Long story short, I 

373
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:28,800
shouldn't feel anything like 
when I put the shoe on his 

374
00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,360
field, my foot's there and I 
don't like notice anything in 

375
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,920
particular. 
There's a shoe that I put on 

376
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,480
today. 
It's a training shoe for ultra, 

377
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,360
super tight around this kind of 
outlet into the toe box. 

378
00:18:41,360 --> 00:18:45,000
I wish I knew the term for that,
but it's just really snug and 

379
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,800
you can't loosen it at all. 
And so I couldn't couldn't 

380
00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:50,160
change it. 
So that's what I look for. 

381
00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,880
David, what do you got? 
Yeah, I feel like we're kind of 

382
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,920
similar in in a lot of ways 
there. 

383
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,160
I'm not a tongue or a lacing 
snob, but I do like my foot to 

384
00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,600
be locked into the platform that
I do like. 

385
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,000
And there have been some shoes, 
several shoes that I have 

386
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,200
enjoyed the platform, the foam, 
the ride. 

387
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:13,000
But if the fit just doesn't 
quite work, then I can't use it.

388
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,880
And if my heels moving around or
things like that, like the upper

389
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,000
is very, very important, 
especially when you start 

390
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:22,120
teasing hairs, you're like, and 
you or splitting hairs and 

391
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:25,160
you're looking at like, OK, 
which one should I purchase? 

392
00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,000
Especially some of these shoes 
are getting upwards of $200 now,

393
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:29,880
right? 
Like, so when you start 

394
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:32,080
splitting hairs, it's like, OK, 
which one am I more comfortable 

395
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:33,120
in? 
And now you got to really look 

396
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:36,680
at those little things because 
those things can easily be deal 

397
00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:38,600
Breakers once you're 50 miles 
into a shoe. 

398
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,200
But I'm, I'm we talked about it,
but I'm a little bit boring, you

399
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,760
know, and thankfully my foot, I 
don't need a bunch of four foot 

400
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,360
width. 
I'm not super sensitive to that.

401
00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,920
I know a lot of people really 
like wide toe boxes. 

402
00:19:53,360 --> 00:19:55,120
I like them. 
I mean, one of my shoes here is 

403
00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:59,800
a topo, but like I, I don't have
to have it. 

404
00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,080
What I do like is kind of like a
very moderate package. 

405
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,440
I don't, I don't mind a heel 
counter. 

406
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:06,920
It, it can be there. 
It cannot be there. 

407
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,160
But I do want my heel secure. 
And I won't really know that 

408
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:12,720
until I'm standing and moving 
around that I'm not really going

409
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:17,080
to know that on a static fit. 
But I like a moderately padded 

410
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:18,560
tongue. 
I mean, I have a top of Cyclone 

411
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,200
2 here. 
And then I would say is 

412
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,440
definitely kind of moderate all 
the way around. 

413
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,600
This one is on the lighter side.
I mean, it's like what, 6.7 oz 

414
00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,840
or something in size 9? 
Like this is a pretty light 

415
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,920
shoe, but the shoe itself, like 
the upper material has a tiny 

416
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,960
bit of stretch to it, but it 
holds itself pretty well that I 

417
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,240
also like that. 
I like an upper to break in a 

418
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,880
little bit. 
And if I can have a sense about 

419
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,880
that initially where it's like, 
OK, it's not overly plush, it's 

420
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,200
not overly narrow. 
It feels like it might break in 

421
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:50,640
a little bit, then I'm good. 
I kind of like a slightly snug 

422
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,400
fit initially. 
So like the GT 2000, it's a 

423
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,560
little bit of a snugger fitting 
upper, but it does break in and 

424
00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,280
it's not like the second I put 
it on where I was like, Oh my 

425
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,160
God, this is tight. 
I didn't have that feeling, you 

426
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,120
know, like it held my foot, but 
I could tell it was going to 

427
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,600
break in a little bit. 
And some of that's probably the 

428
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,720
experience. 
But on the other end, it's also 

429
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,120
like it's not so tight that it's
a deal breaker. 

430
00:21:13,120 --> 00:21:14,680
Like it just feels like it's 
holding me. 

431
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,520
And so when it does break in, 
I'll just have a little bit of 

432
00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,320
space, you know what I mean? 
Like, it's not like I'm going to

433
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,320
be LAX and flopping around, like
I know it's going to be fine. 

434
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:26,920
And then like the other things 
too, when I look at the 

435
00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,040
materials on that shoe, none of 
it's overly plush. 

436
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,640
It's a very, very moderate 
approach to shoes. 

437
00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:35,920
The most plush thing I got here 
is probably the vomero. 

438
00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:39,200
And the vomero still, I would 
argue, is on the moderate side. 

439
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,280
You know, it's like the tongue 
is on the thicker side, but 

440
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,160
otherwise the heel collar, the 
padding around the counter, like

441
00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,280
it's a very, very moderate 
approach. 

442
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,920
And so I'm kind of boring. 
I kind of like just a 

443
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,320
traditional to slightly 
lightweight build. 

444
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,680
You know, I've never I've kind 
of struggled and you guys know 

445
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,320
this with some of like the more 
plush like premium options when 

446
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,000
it's really soft under foot and 
we'll go into the ride later, 

447
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,560
I'm sure. 
But I've struggled with some of 

448
00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,560
those. 
You know, I definitely kind of 

449
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,480
learn more to your just bread 
and butter traditional type 

450
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,440
trainers. 
So what I'm hearing from so to 

451
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,520
summarize, Nathan, with the big 
you are looking for specific 

452
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,240
things. 
So the four foot width is deaf 

453
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,760
and volume is very important to 
make sure that you're not 

454
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:25,280
getting any pressure in that 
front area. 

455
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,520
But also you're still looking in
the tongue and heel to make sure

456
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:32,680
do you feel like you actually 
have good security without a 

457
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:34,920
probably getting too much 
pressure to like the tongue's 

458
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,240
got to be just right so those 
laces aren't biting on you. 

459
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,960
You've got to feel like that 
heels nice and secure without 

460
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,640
being too pressurized, but just 
like you're not swimming in it. 

461
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,680
Dave Odo, I'm hearing from you 
is you sound there's a more kind

462
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,320
of general piece that you're 
looking for as you're looking 

463
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:51,960
for. 
Is this within the spectrum that

464
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,920
I know I like? 
Is it just this moderate level, 

465
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:59,200
not too plush, nothing too crazy
and also just experience going? 

466
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,760
Is it going to fit just right? 
Is it just the right amount of 

467
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,280
material? 
But also do I know is this going

468
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,720
to adapt to me as I wear this? 
It's not just oh, it's going to 

469
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,640
be the the how it is, but is 
this going to change it? 

470
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,400
Am I going to like that change? 
Is that a correct summarization 

471
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,320
of what you 2 are are thinking 
and when you put stuff on and 

472
00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:19,840
you're looking for that optimal 
fit for you? 

473
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,800
Yeah, I would say the other 
thing too is looking at volume 

474
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,360
and general fit. 
Like I don't want to feel like I

475
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:29,160
have to like really pull those 
laces to make sure the foots on 

476
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,120
my foot. 
If I feel that initially, like, 

477
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,320
and again, I'm going to know 
that more once I stand up. 

478
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:39,760
But you can get a general sense,
you know, when you're putting it

479
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,720
on and you're like, that doesn't
feel quite right. 

480
00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,000
And if I have to really start 
cranking on that, then it's 

481
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,080
like, OK, that takes some of the
fun away from the shoe. 

482
00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,040
Yeah, in in general, if there is
anything from the upper that I 

483
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,000
feel like is geneseeing itself 
into my foot, I'm like, oh, this

484
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,080
isn't quite this just isn't 
quite right. 

485
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,680
I know that this isn't a shoe I 
would buy Like there's AI would 

486
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,400
say there's a very quick switch 
I could flip if I were in a 

487
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,480
store that'd be like, Oh yeah, 
this is not the one for me just 

488
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,680
because it takes a little bit 
too much to get it to be 

489
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,040
somewhat comfortable. 
But I always feel something 

490
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,720
pushing somewhere. 
The shoe of the century when it 

491
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,840
comes to fit is the Topol 
magnify 4, not the five, the 

492
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:22,480
four. 
It was amazing. 

493
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,720
It just fit ticked all the 
boxes. 

494
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,080
I love that upper. 
I love that upper. 

495
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,720
The shoes fine. 
I I do like the shoe, but it's a

496
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,440
really great upper. 
It's got that moderate padding 

497
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,240
all the way around, super secure
through the midfoot. 

498
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,160
I think midfoot security is my 
my key. 

499
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,120
I am OK with like the slightest 
little bit of heel slippage as 

500
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:46,880
long as the midfoot is secure, 
which might be a unique thing to

501
00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,560
me. 
And then just opening up into 

502
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,000
that part of the toe box for 
volume. 

503
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:55,280
The I say that about slippage 
because a shoe that I actually 

504
00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:01,640
don't totally hate is the 
invincible 3 from Nike. 

505
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,320
Really nice ride. 
It's got like some security 

506
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,040
through the mid foot, but my 
heel slips all the time. 

507
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,720
Like I cannot get it secure, but
the mid foot's good enough where

508
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,000
I did put a lot of miles in that
when I was testing it. 

509
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,840
So but yeah, I agree with David.
Upper fit is super. 

510
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:22,600
Important and for me so. 
Nathan read my mind. 

511
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,720
Nathan read my mind because I 
was going to ask what what's 

512
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,680
like the best upper that you 
felt in a while? 

513
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:33,200
So yours was the topo bag fly 
4/4 and you just kind of 

514
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:36,040
explained why. 
David, what's the best upper 

515
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,520
that you can think about 
recently and why? 

516
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,920
What key features popped out to 
that made it that best for you? 

517
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,120
Yeah, that's a tough one. 
You know, there's so many good 

518
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:47,600
ones out there. 
I think in recent times, 

519
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,160
honestly, probably the GT, the 
GT2000. 

520
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,080
I mean, I've been talking at 
length about that shoe. 

521
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,000
Now at this point it almost 
feels monotonous. 

522
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,000
But like I said, bread and 
butter trainer. 

523
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,000
There's really nothing overly 
crazy about this thing. 

524
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,400
It's it's slightly snug when you
put it on the first time it 

525
00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,720
breaks in to be normal fitting, 
you know what I mean? 

526
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,800
And it's just, I don't know. 
It's a, it's a moderately padded

527
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:16,720
tongue. 
The laces are on the softer 

528
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,360
side. 
So when you do pull them down, 

529
00:26:18,360 --> 00:26:20,640
it doesn't really hurt that like
hurt. 

530
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,520
That's not a good word for that.
But it doesn't really. 

531
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:26,400
It doesn't really not. 
As painful as usual. 

532
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,120
It doesn't really bite down 
much. 

533
00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,440
Yeah, I I very, very rarely get 
any pain from shoes, so that was

534
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:37,120
not a good choice of words. 
But the heel collar very 

535
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:40,640
moderately padded. 
When we look at the width I am 

536
00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,640
again, it's kind of just in the 
middle all around, right. 

537
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,320
Like it's not really like a 
narrow heel, you know, it's just

538
00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:50,520
kind of a moderate heel. 
You have just a nice little 

539
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,840
encasing around the heel in the 
midfoot, very, very moderate 

540
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,120
across the entire shoe. 
The forefoot I would maybe 

541
00:26:58,120 --> 00:27:01,080
slightly wide, but it's still 
it's on the more normal side of 

542
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,240
fitting. 
And then on the midfoot, same 

543
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,800
thing. 
And so it just kind of hugs the 

544
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,880
foot. 
The engineered mesh I find to be

545
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,000
really comfortable, but it's 
again, it's not overly plush. 

546
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,560
You know, if you look for like 
let's say a Nimbus or Kiano, if 

547
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,600
you're talking within the ASICS 
line, like they have just a lot 

548
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,920
more going on on those uppers. 
And this is kind of just a very 

549
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,280
standard basic upper. 
And that's one of the things I 

550
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:26,920
liked a lot about the Cyclone 
too. 

551
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,760
It's one of the things I liked a
lot about the endorphin speed. 

552
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:34,560
It's like they're kind of 
minimalist ish, right? 

553
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,920
Like they're not, they still 
have padding. 

554
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,600
They they're not like a racing 
upper, but they have just enough

555
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,680
around it to just hold your foot
and and you know, very middle of

556
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,080
the road. 
I'm kind of boring on that way. 

557
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,520
I wish I could tell you that 
like, Oh yeah, give me the white

558
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,920
top. 
Give me the most plush double 

559
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,160
dracoired whatever mesh upper 
you can give me. 

560
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,280
Like I I'm not that guy. 
You could say it consistent 

561
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,400
instead of boring. 
Yeah, yeah, it might be the the 

562
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,200
more appropriate term. 
Yeah, I mean, it's just it's, 

563
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,120
it's a bread and butter shoe to 
put on your foot with decent 

564
00:28:07,120 --> 00:28:10,240
comfortability that you can long
mile after mile with forgetting 

565
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,680
about it, right. 
Like if a shoe doesn't job well,

566
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:15,760
you don't have to think about 
the shoe is kind of how I think.

567
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,520
So a word of wisdom that you 
might correct me if I'm wrong on

568
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:21,560
this. 
I'm going to make a statement. 

569
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,120
Let me know if you agree or 
disagree on it. 

570
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,680
The point of an of what you're 
looking for in an upper is you 

571
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:28,760
honestly just want this thing to
disappear, right? 

572
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,040
You want it to be secure enough.
Not so much. 

573
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,400
It's crunching your foot and you
want to be able to honestly not 

574
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,280
notice it and almost feel like 
it's not something that's coming

575
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,400
into your mind as you're 
running. 

576
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,160
Yeah, 1000%. 
If I have to think about how my 

577
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:42,800
foot's landing, that's a 
problem. 

578
00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,880
You know, and there's and 
there's slightly different 

579
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,200
things that you 2 are looking 
for, but that seems to be the 

580
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,680
key theme is just making sure, 
as Nathan said, making sure 

581
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,600
nothing's pushed into your foot.
As you said, it's not too thick,

582
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,120
it's not giving you weird 
things. 

583
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:57,760
It's just kind of just put this 
on and go run. 

584
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,400
Yeah. 
And I will say the one thing 

585
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,320
I've been sensitive to once 
because we talked about a fit 

586
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:05,080
from a static standpoint, but 
once we start running, I am 

587
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:09,320
sensitive to heel slippage, 
whether it's like my heel rising

588
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,880
or my heel moving. 
And it's more so like the 

589
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,880
translation medially and 
laterally that I've found that 

590
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,360
I've been more sensitive to in 
recent years than anything. 

591
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,840
And I don't, I don't know why. 
Like I don't know if that was 

592
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,280
something that I used to 
overlook. 

593
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,200
And maybe now I'm just getting a
little older and more sensitive.

594
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,360
I don't know. 
But like, for whatever reason, 

595
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,480
like that, that is one of the 
things I'm noticing right away, 

596
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,320
especially when the pace picks 
up and there's a shoe 

597
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,400
specifically I can talk about 
with that. 

598
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:38,680
But. 
Nathan, do you have anything? 

599
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,400
I was just going to do 1 quick 
note on like type of material so

600
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,920
I'm with David too. 
I want it to be pretty simple 

601
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:48,920
though. 
The three shoes I have on the 

602
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,960
table right now and I have more 
down there, but all have 

603
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,000
different types of upper. 
So like the Novoblast 5, the 

604
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,120
there's definitely layers to 
this. 

605
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,520
The inside is just like a very 
typical mesh and then they have 

606
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:02,880
kind of a more synthetic mesh on
the outside. 

607
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:05,960
I tend to like that because I 
like the feeling of just like 

608
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,600
those more traditional 
engineered mesh materials 

609
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,440
because they're softer 
comfortable, but I don't hate 

610
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:13,800
synthetic because it helps it 
hold its shape a little more. 

611
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,920
It seems like while still having
some stretch and like the design

612
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,880
here, I don't know if people can
see, but it it does stretch 

613
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,560
laterally through the lacing 
system, which I think is nice. 

614
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,680
And then I pick up the next shoe
and it's a little bit more of an

615
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,000
engineered upper. 
It almost looks like a knit 

616
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,560
upper in the DV83 from Puma. 
And again, it's really 

617
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,920
comfortable and soft. 
There's a layer of kind of, 

618
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,000
yeah, a softer, slightly 
synthetic material, but still 

619
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,880
pretty simple feeling like it 
feels simple. 

620
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,120
And then the third one is like 
the most traditional type upper 

621
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,640
that I feel like this was the 
upper that you would see back 

622
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:54,720
even in like 2015, 2016 on the 
Elios. 

623
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,920
And I think it works great. 
Like I don't think you need 

624
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,800
something fancy, especially for 
training. 

625
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,840
I'm not a huge fan of shoes that
feel overly synthetic only 

626
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:09,280
unless it's strictly for like a 
race day thing, but I think 

627
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,360
there was a trend towards some 
of that synthetic stuff for a 

628
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,560
while. 
I'm particularly thinking about 

629
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,640
like some of the Ace Adidas 
stuff that came out a couple 

630
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,680
years ago and I feel like we're 
seeing some more traditional 

631
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,880
mesh materials. 
And I guess I don't care that 

632
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,120
much is what I'm saying, as long
as it's comfortable. 

633
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,040
I don't know, that was a lot of 
type dropping to not care that 

634
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,400
much. 
I know it's true. 

635
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,520
So big things to take away from 
our talk, talk about the upper 

636
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,240
is that it's going to vary 
slightly for different people. 

637
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,240
Some people like a little bit 
more Kush, some people like a 

638
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,120
little bit more moderate, some a
little less. 

639
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,120
The biggest things that you 
should be looking for is when 

640
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,080
you put that shoe shoe on, you 
shouldn't be getting any 

641
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,720
hotspots, any weird things. 
Nothing's pushing and it should 

642
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,160
fit your foot. 
You should have plenty of room. 

643
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,360
You shouldn't feel like your 
foot's getting smashed. 

644
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,520
It there should be enough room 
while things stay secure. 

645
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,120
The other piece of advice I 
would have that David mentioned 

646
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,280
is make sure that whatever shoe 
that you're trying on, that you 

647
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,960
that you test it with the 
activity that you're actually 

648
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,440
going to be using it for. 
So if you're trying on a running

649
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,920
shoe, it's not going to be a 
great idea to just stand there 

650
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,600
and try to make a decision. 
You're going to need to run 

651
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:14,840
around the store or whatever 
situation you're in to go. 

652
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,800
How does this feel in motion? 
We have very good evidence the 

653
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,680
many parts of the human body and
other things that if you that 

654
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,800
static measurements and analysis
often do not relate to what 

655
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,400
things feel like or look like 
dynamically. 

656
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:31,240
So make sure, if you're going to
try to figure out how, if this 

657
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,880
is going to work for you, make 
sure you move in it, make sure 

658
00:32:33,880 --> 00:32:36,240
you run in it and test it out 
appropriately. 

659
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:38,920
How much you'll be able to test 
it will probably vary depending 

660
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,920
on the manufacturer in the store
that you're going to or at home 

661
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:43,720
with. 
But just make sure you give 

662
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,320
yourself enough time to figure 
out, does this work and does it 

663
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,880
move with me? 
Is my the, the recommendation I 

664
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,600
think I'm hearing. 
So let's move on to the sole. 

665
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,720
And so I'll give you a little 
outline so either one of you can

666
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:57,920
start first. 
But as you're once you've gotten

667
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:02,120
past the upper that fit, what 
are you looking for And what's 

668
00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:04,360
under your feet, right? 
What kind of sensation you're 

669
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,600
looking for, how you expect? 
What do you want the ride to be 

670
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,680
in terms of how the mid foot or 
the, the rear foot or heel mid 

671
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:12,280
foot, forefoot? 
Nathan, you've talked a little 

672
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,840
bit about forefoot geometry. 
What are you looking for? 

673
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,560
From a cushioning standpoint? 
From a stability or stiff to 

674
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,760
standpoint? 
However you want to organize 

675
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,080
this, whatever you do, what do 
you do? 

676
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,640
Yeah, I guess I can go first 
since you went first. 

677
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:30,160
And the last one, when I think 
back on a lot of the shoes that 

678
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:34,280
I've liked, and this isn't 
always the case, but I kind of 

679
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,240
do fall back on a little bit of 
a traditional built a lot of the

680
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,440
time, a little bit of a higher 
drop ratio, a little bit of a 

681
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:45,000
more flexible 4 foot, usually a 
little bit of a firmer platform.

682
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,720
Nowadays. 
I mean, shoot, man, you take any

683
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:51,200
shoe from today's market, even 
if it's on the firmer side, 

684
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,600
that's going to be soft if you 
compare it to 10 years ago, 

685
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,720
right? 
Like all of the films are 

686
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,200
getting so good that like, I 
don't know what's firm and I 

687
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,280
don't know what's soft anymore. 
And it's like it's just getting 

688
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,960
crazier and crazier with how 
soft they can make these films. 

689
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,840
But in today's market, 
relatively speaking, I do tend 

690
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,760
to lean towards some of the more
firmer offerings or on the 

691
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,320
firmer side of soft. 
So like if it's going to be a 

692
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:20,840
single piece minsole, I usually 
do like it to be a little bit on

693
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:23,239
the firmer side. 
But if it's going to be on the 

694
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,239
softer side, I do like a dual 
density minsole. 

695
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,440
And the reason why I'm bringing 
that up is when we look at 

696
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:33,679
something like the Romero from 
last year that had a Zoom X 

697
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:36,480
layer, but it also had that 
cushion area as well. 

698
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,040
And so you have that kind of 
firmer base with the softer 

699
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,639
topsole. 
The other thing I kind of look 

700
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,600
for is I actually do like having
some 4 foot flexibility. 

701
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,800
I mean with how many speed days 
that I do and with racing and 

702
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,440
how stiff these shoes are 
getting, I actually do like 

703
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,679
having some bend in that shoe on
all of my other efforts. 

704
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,240
And that actually translates to 
the track as well. 

705
00:34:57,240 --> 00:35:01,000
Ironically, when I'm going real 
long and I know I'm doing a long

706
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,240
steady effort or a hard effort, 
like maybe I will opt for 

707
00:35:04,240 --> 00:35:06,240
something a little bit stiffer 
like a super shoe. 

708
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,520
But for the most part, I mean, 
when you look at the shoes that 

709
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,440
I've picked over the last little
bit, I mean, the GT2000 I'd 

710
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,440
argue is on the more flexible 
end of trainers. 

711
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,760
Like it has the flex grooves, 
you can bend it. 

712
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,160
Vomero is actually really 
flexible in the forefoot. 

713
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,240
And then like the Endorphin 
Speed 4, even though it's 

714
00:35:24,240 --> 00:35:26,240
plated, I mean, there's a good 
amount of bend there, right? 

715
00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:30,160
So I actually do like that feel 
Cyclone too as well on the 

716
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:31,960
track, like I said, very 
flexible. 

717
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:37,440
So I actually do like 
flexibility in most of my daily 

718
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,840
training runs. 
And when I'm on the track, when 

719
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,640
we are, if I'm doing like an 8 
plus mile tempo run or something

720
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,960
and it's going to be pretty 
close to race pace and we're 

721
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,720
putting a lot of hard efforts in
like, OK, I will opt for 

722
00:35:49,720 --> 00:35:51,880
something a little bit stiffer, 
probably a little bit more 

723
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,160
resilient foam, you know, like 
it's like a more super shoe type

724
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:59,080
of offering that will mimic it. 
Because ultimately, I do feel 

725
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,880
more economic in some of those 
models when I am doing those 

726
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:03,880
types of paces for those types 
of efforts. 

727
00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:06,680
I do think there still is 
something to that. 

728
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:11,440
But I think when if I could have
it my way for most daily efforts

729
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,800
and on the track, like I tend to
opt for things a little bit more

730
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,760
flexible and more moderately 
cushioned as well. 

731
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,240
I'd argue that a lot of the 
shoes I just pulled up, none of 

732
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,600
them are really Max cushion per 
SE. 

733
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,760
Maybe the Vomero is the closest 
to that. 

734
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,920
But other than that, like 
everything else has been 

735
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:29,000
relatively moderate. 
I mean the endorphin speed is 

736
00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,960
what, 35 in the heel give or 
take? 

737
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,600
Did they raise it? 
I think it's up at 40. 

738
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,440
Is it endorphin speeds at 40 
now? 

739
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,120
Yeah. 
Yeah, really, it's higher. 

740
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,880
Yeah, because all the other 
models were like 36 I think. 

741
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,720
I'll I'll look at our specs 
here. 

742
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:48,720
Yeah. 
And anyways but that one like 86

743
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,000
GT was like what 3037 of? 
Course, of course. 

744
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,120
David's right, of course 628. 
I'm telling you, man, I know my 

745
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,880
stuff. 
Cyclone 2 is on the lower side. 

746
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,000
Yeah, because I remember the 
speed in the pro or 

747
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:04,880
distinctively different for that
reason. 

748
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,880
It's good. 
And yeah. 

749
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,680
There's basically no, you're 
basically saying there's 

750
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,680
basically no foam in the 
endorphin speed, Yeah. 

751
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,080
It's a. 
It's a. 

752
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,440
It's a minimal. 
Minimalist. 

753
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,320
Yes. 
Yeah, moderate quote UN quote by

754
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,920
today's standards. 
We got, we got trainers at 47 

755
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,480
and 50 and 45. 
Like it's getting crazy, man. 

756
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:30,000
Like do you think there's on 
that shoe 10 plus millimeters 

757
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,200
more than that, you know, on 
some of these trainers? 

758
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,400
So I tend to fall more on the 
moderate side. 

759
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,160
I'm not going to say minimalist,
you know, I mean a minimalist 

760
00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,480
shoe is there are still shoes 
out there that are under 20 

761
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:45,120
mils, you know, so. 
I got to do a call. 

762
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,880
So somebody rightfully on I 
think camera was YouTube or 

763
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,000
whatever for innovates shoe that
they were a nice stuff to send 

764
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,280
us. 
It's kind of it's not high. 

765
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,000
It's more like lower stack by 
today's standards. 

766
00:37:57,720 --> 00:38:02,040
And I call, I wrote the DPT 
thoughts on like wearing minimal

767
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,880
shoes during casual wear for 
like, you know, foot, you know, 

768
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,200
not strengthening, but foot 
training or whatever you want to

769
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,200
call this. 
Stimulus. 

770
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,920
Foot stimulus is the best term. 
I got that stimulus. 

771
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,320
That innovate shoe is not a a 
minimal shoe. 

772
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,440
And I'm like, well, by today's 
standards it is. 

773
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,840
But you know, by, you know, 
normal standards, I guess you 

774
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:23,360
know not. 
It's funny how things are 

775
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,320
changing in terms of the the 
extremes. 

776
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,120
I, I do think on that point 
though, it's important that like

777
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,040
the stimulus that you get is 
different depending on what 

778
00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:40,560
you're used to, right. 
So like if I lift 10 LB curls 

779
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:43,680
everyday because that's all I 
can handle and I do that for 10 

780
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,960
years and then I grab 1 LB like 
that 1 LB is different than the 

781
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:49,320
10. 
So it's a, it's not going to 

782
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,680
give me as much. 
But if I've only been lifting 1 

783
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,800
LB all the time and then I grab 
10, just the difference in the 

784
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:56,440
stimulus. 
That was a terrible analogy. 

785
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,680
We could like cut that out 
because it didn't actually like 

786
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,480
make the message that I want. 
But the point is like you are 

787
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:04,800
getting a different stimulus 
from something like that 

788
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,000
innovate shoe if all if all 
you've been in for the last five

789
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:13,120
years has been something with 
45mm or more. 

790
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,880
Whereas if you've been in 
something like the innovate 

791
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,760
shoe, it's forever. 
It's not giving you a stimulus 

792
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,160
that you're not used to. 
So it's not going to promote 

793
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,480
any, anything different. 
That's terrible, terrible, 

794
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,480
terrible word. 
On that note, Nathan, talk us 

795
00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,400
through what you like. 
Now I got to keep talking. 

796
00:39:33,720 --> 00:39:36,960
Yeah, I would say when it comes 
to mid soles, especially this 

797
00:39:36,960 --> 00:39:40,920
year with my foot stuff, I I 
think there's a few things that 

798
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,120
I look for very similarly to 
David. 

799
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,680
Cushioning is one of those 
things. 

800
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:50,080
I land in a very similar spot as
David, liking kind of that 

801
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,560
firmer end of soft or the softer
end of firm. 

802
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,160
Right in that middle ground for 
me is usually my sweet spot. 

803
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,040
I would say that I have drifted 
towards some. 

804
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,480
I've enjoyed more soft shoes 
this year and the year before 

805
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,640
than I have in in years prior to
that. 

806
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:12,040
But the really crazy soft stuff 
are never my never my cup of tea

807
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,920
like the New Balance 1080. 
Don't really get along with it 

808
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,040
super well. 
The more V5 don't really get 

809
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,760
along with it. 
I'm just listing new. 

810
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:22,640
Balance sheet don't. 
Get along with it. 

811
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,360
Yeah, like don't get along with 
like those super soft things. 

812
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:30,800
So I like a little bit a little 
bit more firmness to it, but I 

813
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,920
like some level of compression, 
but I don't like it to be mushy 

814
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,600
compression. 
So I I think of it more of like 

815
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,080
unit compression, which is why I
do like the Super blast. 

816
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,680
I didn't pull that shoe out 
here. 

817
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,840
And you know, like I think the 
Nova blast fits in that 

818
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,200
category. 
The Elios has been fitting in 

819
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,360
that category. 
I just like a little bit of. 

820
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:55,440
Kind of resilience because all 
those shoes have a decent amount

821
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,480
of balance to them. 
Yeah. 

822
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,720
So any, I would say maybe any 
sort of compliance they have as 

823
00:41:00,720 --> 00:41:04,000
balanced by the resilience in 
the foam said it kind of all 

824
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,840
comes back at you. 
But in, in addition to those 

825
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,640
characteristics of how soft or 
firm or compliant the foam is, I

826
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,840
do look a lot at heel 
construction for geometry and 

827
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:20,760
four foot construction for 
geometry. 

828
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,240
So I, I definitely this year 
don't like a lot of toe spraying

829
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,000
Where the platform is, is ramp 
rounding up a lot and it's 

830
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,800
holding me there. 
And then I also, Matt, this is 

831
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,080
for you. 
I always want a nice heel bevel.

832
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,720
If there is any posterior heel 
flare, many shoes are doing, 

833
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,000
many companies are doing a 
pretty good job at that, but I 

834
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,200
just want enough where I'm not 
going to have the heel get in 

835
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,440
the way. 
And then the last thing that I 

836
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,600
look at as well is bending 
stiffness in the forefoot. 

837
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,120
Like you, David, I like to have 
some level of flexibility. 

838
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:55,680
And I think that saying, oh, the
shoes plated doesn't really mean

839
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,800
anything anymore because of the 
variety of types of plates that 

840
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,640
people are putting in shoes. 
And I was going to do the exact 

841
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:03,000
same thing with the Endorphin 
Speed. 

842
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,360
Like this shoe flexes like a 
trainer that doesn't have a 

843
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,960
plate in it, but the plate 
stabilizes the foam. 

844
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:16,560
The stiffest shoe that I have up
here is the TV83 from Puma, 

845
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,920
which is definitely a stiffer 
shoe, but I use it for 

846
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:23,480
particular types of runs and 
it's got a really nice gradual 

847
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,240
rocker that fits my foot really 
well, which is why I get along 

848
00:42:27,240 --> 00:42:29,480
with it. 
Otherwise, every other shoe that

849
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:34,480
I have up here has a decent 
amount of flexibility but still 

850
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,440
operates off of some form of 
rocker, so I don't want it to be

851
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,720
completely flexible. 
Like I didn't run in the Magnify

852
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:44,440
as much because it is a 
extremely flexible forefoot. 

853
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,880
I like to have that higher 
stacked amount in the forefoot 

854
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,440
and that cushioning creates a 
slight amount of rigidity. 

855
00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:53,920
And then the another shoe that I
had up from last year is the 

856
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,560
Clifton nine. 
Really liked that shoe and it's 

857
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,600
again, it's flexible in the 
forefoot, but it's got enough 

858
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,640
foam that it's slightly stiff. 
So that's kind of my jam is 

859
00:43:03,720 --> 00:43:07,360
looking at kind of those four 
components on the softer end of 

860
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,160
firm or the firmer end of soft, 
having some sort of flexibility 

861
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,600
in the forefoot, but not 
completely flexible, nice heel 

862
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,800
bevel and not having a lot of 
toe spring. 

863
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:23,560
I'm going to add just one really
quick random caveat to all of 

864
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,600
this and that's going to be this
kind of goes by the wayside when

865
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,000
I start talking trail specific. 
Sure, yeah. 

866
00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,200
Looking at categories because 
I've been really digging the 

867
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,760
speed you. 
Mean like the Evo Pro 1 is your 

868
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,000
go to trail shoe. 
Yeah, man, I'm just kidding. 

869
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,800
Yeah. 
Bombing technical downhills and 

870
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:41,720
Evo ones. 
You know, that's how it be. 

871
00:43:42,240 --> 00:43:46,360
I know when I look at like a 
speed goat, it's like the exact 

872
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:48,240
opposite of everything I 
described, right? 

873
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:53,760
Like very rigid platform, like, 
you know, very grippy rockered 

874
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:56,280
platform. 
I will say this one does have a 

875
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,560
little bit more of a snug upper,
which I do like just in general,

876
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,000
you know, like I don't want it 
to be super tight. 

877
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,640
Obviously if it's like squeezing
my foot, that's not good, but if

878
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:10,080
it has like a light, gentle 
squeeze when I first put it on, 

879
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,280
I know it's going to break in a 
little bit and it's going to fit

880
00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,360
me well. 
That's what the Speed GOAT is 

881
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:17,640
for me. 
Another one kind of looking back

882
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,680
and this one's a little bit more
roomy, but Ultrafly from Nike, 

883
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,520
again, really rigid, you know, 
decent amount of soul flaring. 

884
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,080
Upper is a little bit more 
synthetic. 

885
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:28,560
It has a good hold to it when I 
lock down South. 

886
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,400
I think where I'm going with 
this is they can be tasked 

887
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,200
dependent to depending on the 
scenario of what you're looking 

888
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:39,800
for and what you're doing. 
So like when I go and I look 

889
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,600
specifically at a trail shoe, if
I know I'm going to be hidden 

890
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:45,960
pretty much an entire trail run 
and I'm not going to be on road 

891
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,760
much, I'm going to look at a 
very different shoe than I am on

892
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,560
a normal training day when I'm 
running so fit. 

893
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,480
Also I just have to I have to 
throw Tecnix 3 in there for 

894
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,720
trail shoe for my preferences. 
That shoes dope. 

895
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,680
I want that carriage on a road 
shoe too that. 

896
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,360
'D be sweet. 
I just need that upper to not 

897
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:08,640
fit me slightly small, which I I
think might be my own issue of I

898
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:12,240
think I am a 10/10 and 1/2 and 
no longer a nine and a half ten,

899
00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:16,080
but that's a new problem. 
So what I'm hearing from you 2 

900
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,160
on souls is, as David mentioned,
obviously it's dependent on the 

901
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,920
task at hand. 
And I'm trying to decide do we 

902
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,800
have enough time to dig into how
you choose race day versus 

903
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,760
trainer versus on the trail? 
Or should we probably save that 

904
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,360
from the rest of that might be 
the entire episode in and of 

905
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:33,960
itself. 
But So what I'm so we'll, we'll 

906
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,720
probably save that for another 
day. 

907
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,440
But what I'm hearing from souls 
is, David, you want something 

908
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:42,360
that has at least a little bit, 
if not moderate 4 foot 

909
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:44,520
flexibility for most of your 
daily training. 

910
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,840
You're looking for something 
that has cushioning, not mushy, 

911
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,400
but maybe just on the on the 
slightly firmer side of soft is 

912
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,400
real. 
There's not a lot of stuff 

913
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,840
that's actually firm anymore. 
As you alluded to, Nathan, you 

914
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,040
mentioned that you're looking at
the whole thing in terms of you 

915
00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:01,520
want to make sure your toes 
aren't being held, the extension

916
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,640
with too much toe spraying. 
You want to make sure there's a 

917
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,280
decent heel bevel if there's any
posterior flare that helps you 

918
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,400
doesn't get in your way, and you
want that 4 foot rocker to again

919
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,520
be just right where it's really 
transitioning nice. 

920
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,080
It's not overly flexible, it's 
not super stiff for most things.

921
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:19,160
You just want to feel like 
you've got a little bit of flex 

922
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,400
so that it feels at least 
natural for you and how your 

923
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,880
foot is so you can be 
comfortable. 

924
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,600
Correct me if I'm wrong in those
statements. 

925
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:29,120
Yeah, I think it translates into
race day 2. 

926
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:34,560
I got 2 shoes right here. 
I've got an Anta C2C2O2G25 and a

927
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:37,480
six meta speed hedge of pairs. 
I'd argue those are on the 

928
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:40,440
firmer side of racing shoes as 
well by today's standards. 

929
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,920
I'd agree and I'm I'm with you 
on that too. 

930
00:46:44,240 --> 00:46:48,920
My my shoes that I've liked for 
racing have been the Edge and, 

931
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:51,440
well, the. 
Anti C2 or 2G25? 

932
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:57,160
No, I've never tried an anti 
shoe but the Endorphin Pro 3 was

933
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,200
one of my favorites and this is 
going to sound. 

934
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,000
This is going to sound crazy 
what I'm about to say and you 

935
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:08,320
could maybe what's crazy kick 
kick me off the pod but in 

936
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,640
comparison to some of the other 
ones, the vaporfly 3 isn't that 

937
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,440
mushy soft like it's. 
It's. 

938
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,000
Still. 
Like an SC elite or something 

939
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,520
or? 
Right, so like that I've I 

940
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:26,120
enjoyed racing in that shoot 
too, but it's it feels again, 

941
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:32,000
because we're so acculturated to
this type of foam, like I feel 

942
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,920
like that's a reality. 
I I agree with you, I don't 

943
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,600
think, and this is a 
conversation, yeah, I don't 

944
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:44,480
think Zoom X is the softest or 
most compliant on the market at 

945
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:46,520
this time, which is just part of
what happens when you have a 

946
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:51,400
larger sample size of now pretty
much everybody has well, there's

947
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,200
still one where that we know is 
has one. 

948
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:58,080
They just have to debut it. 
But pretty much everyone has 

949
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,240
some kind of super foam, true 
super racing shoe out there. 

950
00:48:01,240 --> 00:48:03,280
So you've got a lot more 
different things to figure out 

951
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,320
and hopefully it becomes less. 
It's obviously more confusing to

952
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,080
people because there's more 
options, but hopefully people 

953
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,960
learn to go. 
How can I get better at finding 

954
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,080
a shoe that works for me, or you
or them? 

955
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:18,480
My last question is probably one
of the more challenging ones, 

956
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,240
but the one I've been looking 
forward to it the most and I am 

957
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:23,360
still formulating this and I 
haven't quite figured it out. 

958
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,960
So I'm going to talk for as long
as I can while I try to figure 

959
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,840
out the last piece of this and 
try not to breathe too much 

960
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:31,280
while I continue talking. 
I'm still. 

961
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,000
Ask Pizza. 
This. 

962
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:34,000
Yeah, it was. 
It's. 

963
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:34,920
Yeah. 
So I was. 

964
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,560
Trying to figure out how to ask.
This as a pizza question. 

965
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,720
Was it really a pizza question? 
Yeah, it really was a oh. 

966
00:48:41,720 --> 00:48:45,200
My gosh, I read your mind. 
Yeah, so sad formula. 

967
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,720
I've been thinking about it this
whole time. 

968
00:48:46,720 --> 00:48:48,960
We'll try to manage this the. 
Same time I'm just making a map 

969
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,400
pun. 
No, it's, it's just as pizza. 

970
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,200
So yeah, for real. 
It's a piece of question, but 

971
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:56,360
I'm trying. 
I'm still trying to figure it 

972
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,520
out because you're judging me. 
Still trying to formulate. 

973
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:02,520
It just like this episode, throw
a pun right back at you and it 

974
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:03,840
turned out it really was a 
pizza. 

975
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,120
Yeah. 
So all right, how do we, how do 

976
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:08,320
we do this? 
Do the Crowdsource on this one? 

977
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,320
So like do we talk about like 
the different parts of the shoe 

978
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:13,640
and describe? 
Yeah, let's do that. 

979
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,560
So if you describe the different
parts of the shoe, we'll keep it

980
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,240
simple for right now. 
Actually, no. 

981
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:22,800
We're going to do the outsole, 
midsole and the upper. 

982
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:26,600
If each one of those things of 
pizza, what would it be for each

983
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:28,240
one of you? 
As far as like what we're 

984
00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:30,960
looking for inside pizza, Yeah, 
like, yeah, let's. 

985
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,760
Let's put it into like what 
you're looking for, like maybe 

986
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:36,400
if the shoe is a pizza itself 
and like you're breaking it 

987
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:37,520
down. 
There you go. 

988
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:41,080
I'm thinking about, like, 
building a pizza and like, yeah,

989
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,600
like the sole is a certain part 
of the pizza. 

990
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:45,480
Maybe it's the crust, like that 
kind of thing. 

991
00:49:45,720 --> 00:49:46,400
Oh. 
OK. 

992
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,280
I was thinking like outsole with
its own pizza and then we could.

993
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:51,520
That's what. 
I was saying pizza. 

994
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:52,720
That's. 
What I was originally going 

995
00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:55,520
through, but I like this like. 
Almost like I'm OK with that 

996
00:49:55,520 --> 00:49:58,120
because what you look for in an 
outsole, like if you want like 

997
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:01,320
this coarse grippy outsole or 
you like it a little bit more 

998
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,520
slick and I don't know. 
Yeah, but we didn't talk about 

999
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:05,720
that. 
I've already started us like 

1000
00:50:05,720 --> 00:50:07,440
landing this plane and now I'm 
going to feel awkward. 

1001
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:08,840
So let's do building the whole 
the. 

1002
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,480
Whole thing. 
OK, OK. 

1003
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:11,120
Yeah. 
All right, all. 

1004
00:50:11,240 --> 00:50:14,480
Right, so if your perfect shoe 
was a pizza, walk us through how

1005
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,320
you build it. 
So I I do think that it feels 

1006
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,680
like low hanging fruit, which 
why would I use a food analogy 

1007
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,840
with a different food? 
Terrible, but I think it feels 

1008
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,360
like the. 
This guy likes pineapple on his.

1009
00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,760
Pizza. 
The type of the crust has to be 

1010
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,520
the midsole for me. 
You better not wear no like the 

1011
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:34,680
type of crust. 
You have to put some pineapple 

1012
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,360
on there. 
No, I'm not putting pineapple on

1013
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,880
yet, but the crust is, is, is 
maybe for me the most, one of 

1014
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:46,120
the most valuable parts of the 
pizza on 1st take. 

1015
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:50,680
And so I and I, I lean towards 
like New York style pizza has 

1016
00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:54,720
some thickness to it, but I love
deep dish, but I don't want it 

1017
00:50:54,720 --> 00:50:57,360
all the time. 
And I like thin crust. 

1018
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,320
That's like all we have around 
here, but it doesn't feel 

1019
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,640
substantial enough. 
So again, I'm right in the 

1020
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,640
middle on all of my midsole 
desire. 

1021
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,960
So my crust is going to be my 
midsole and it's going to be 

1022
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,840
kind of New York style 
traditional thickness crust. 

1023
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:18,760
And then I do think that one of 
the parts of pizza that maybe 

1024
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:22,000
doesn't get sung enough glory is
the sauce. 

1025
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,920
And I think that the sauce for 
me when it comes to shoes is the

1026
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,320
geometry, because there are a 
lot of foams that are similar, 

1027
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,640
but the ones that I gravitate 
towards end up having the heel 

1028
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,920
bevel and the rocker and the 
amount of stiffness that make it

1029
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:39,160
really fun for me to run for an 
hour and a half in the shoe. 

1030
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:44,480
So I, I want a nice sauce with 
some basil in there, little bit 

1031
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,920
of extra flavor and I think 
that's what the geometry does. 

1032
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,160
And then I just want a four 
cheese topping. 

1033
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,000
I don't want anything else. 
I just want really good upper, 

1034
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,560
which is my cheese and I just 
want it to taste delicious, but 

1035
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:03,680
like it. 
It shouldn't turn me away from 

1036
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:05,280
the pizza. 
The thing that's going to make 

1037
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,920
the pizza a star is going to be 
the sauce, which is going to be 

1038
00:52:08,920 --> 00:52:11,160
the geometry. 
Done. 

1039
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,840
David Stern. 
So Nathan chose New York style 4

1040
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:18,440
cheese pizza with a little basil
in the sauce. 

1041
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:21,440
OK, got it. 
Yeah, I don't know if mine thing

1042
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:24,960
would be quite so elaborate, but
when I think of a shoe and I 

1043
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:28,960
think of pizza, I'm thinking of 
kind of like like a chicken 

1044
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:34,160
pesto artichoke, maybe a little 
bit of bacon on there. 

1045
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:37,800
And I'm going to I'll tell you 
where I'm going with this. 

1046
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,600
And it doesn't necessarily have 
to be a thin crust here. 

1047
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:42,200
I actually don't want a thin 
crust. 

1048
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:48,920
Give me just a normal crust 
because I when I think of thin 

1049
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,080
crust. 
So I'm when I'm looking at the 

1050
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,080
way the pizza is oriented, I'm 
picturing a shoe. 

1051
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:59,280
What is on the bottom of a pizza
that is a crust that is an 

1052
00:52:59,280 --> 00:53:02,520
outsole. 
If it's really, really thin, it 

1053
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,960
might break down really quick 
and it won't hold very well and 

1054
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:07,640
it might not have the greatest 
traction. 

1055
00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:11,080
But if it's a deep dish and it's
like really, really thick, like 

1056
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:13,520
that might be too much. 
I was going to say too much 

1057
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,200
sauce. 
So which is a bad, which is a 

1058
00:53:16,240 --> 00:53:18,920
bad pun for this because we're 
not talking about sauce. 

1059
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:22,440
We're talking about crust. 
Too much bread, boy. 

1060
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:27,320
So. 
I think that there's the most 

1061
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,120
sauce in deep dish, more sauce 
in fillings than there is. 

1062
00:53:30,160 --> 00:53:31,360
Crust. 
I think the crust is. 

1063
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,960
Still actually pretty thin. 
Yeah, it would. 

1064
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,120
Basically. 
I feel like super trainers are 

1065
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,680
deep dish pizza. 
I I can get behind that, I can 

1066
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:44,040
get behind that, but I just want
a normal crust, you know, like 

1067
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,360
the crust, like just just give 
me something that's going to 

1068
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,120
grip the ground pretty well. 
It'll last for longer than one 

1069
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:54,480
marathon, you know, like just 
something that I'm not going to 

1070
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,440
slide out in that I can just 
have some basic trust in, you 

1071
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,360
know, I mean, like, I feel like 
that lines up pretty well with 

1072
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,200
these guys that I pulled up. 
You know, they're not the 

1073
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,040
thickest outs. 
Well, actually, but I will. 

1074
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,160
I mean the edge Paris has lasted
beautifully. 

1075
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,200
Actually, I will say from an 
outsole rubber standpoint, 

1076
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,000
surprisingly good. 
But anyways, that's besides the 

1077
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:17,720
point. 
It's a normal traction. 

1078
00:54:17,720 --> 00:54:21,240
Like it's nothing to like rave 
about per SE, but it works well 

1079
00:54:21,240 --> 00:54:23,080
in pretty much every situation 
I've put it in. 

1080
00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:26,520
So a very just normal pizza 
crust. 

1081
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:30,000
When we look at the sauce, I 
feel like if you're throwing 

1082
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:34,120
down a pesto sauce, you know, 
it's not like it's a little bit 

1083
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:39,040
fancy, but it's not like it's 
not so outrageous someone hasn't

1084
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,680
heard of it, right? 
And so I feel like that's like 

1085
00:54:42,680 --> 00:54:44,480
your normal run of the like 
that. 

1086
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,040
That's our Peeba midsole. 
But it's not something that's so

1087
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:49,960
crazy outrageous that someone's 
doing crazy geometries and 

1088
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:51,480
things like that. 
Like this is something that's 

1089
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,600
still predictable enough. 
What? 

1090
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:55,000
What is your objection here, 
Nate? 

1091
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:57,360
I want to hear it. 
Not an objection, but is there 

1092
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,360
anything more Santa Barbara than
saying that a pesto sauce is 

1093
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:04,200
just a very normal sauce? 
What the heck, man? 

1094
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:06,280
Why you got to deal with why you
got to do that? 

1095
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:13,760
To me, I, I think, I, I think of
like it's like artisanal, but 

1096
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,480
it's not like outrageous like 
most people have heard of that. 

1097
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:23,840
Yeah, you want, you want, you 
want more than just like an Eva 

1098
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,320
of 2017. 
You want you. 

1099
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,240
Want just a red sauce, right? 
Like, I'm not going to make that

1100
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:31,000
on my own. 
I'm at a restaurant. 

1101
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,440
I'm ordering something that's a 
little special, right? 

1102
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,520
But it's not so special that I'm
like, like, oh, I don't know, 

1103
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:41,080
give me shoot, I don't know what
would be a crazy fancy sauce 

1104
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,720
that you would see on a 
whatever. 

1105
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:47,440
Probably a peso sauce I. 
Hate you guys. 

1106
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:55,000
Before we derail anymore and 
then so. 

1107
00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,560
The cheese and the toppings 
would be the next little things.

1108
00:55:58,560 --> 00:56:00,160
Chicken. 
Not that outrageous. 

1109
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:03,080
He had a vegetable, artichoke, 
spinach, whatever. 

1110
00:56:03,240 --> 00:56:06,280
Not that outrageous. 
A little bit of bacon for some 

1111
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:07,920
flair. 
Got it. 

1112
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,440
So I'm hearing from David, he 
wants a bacon, artichoke, 

1113
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,800
cheese, pesto, normal thickness 
crust pizza is what he's 

1114
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,520
building out. 
And so the consistent theme I'm 

1115
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:20,440
hearing is despite all the 
craziest stuff on the market, 

1116
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:21,560
everything is going to be 
different. 

1117
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,400
But it's funny that you 2 are 
both gravitating back toward the

1118
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,680
normal stack height stuff for 
trainers. 

1119
00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,720
We'll have another discussion on
racing shoes and other that 

1120
00:56:28,720 --> 00:56:30,200
stuff. 
But like for normal everyday 

1121
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,760
stuff, sometimes the quote UN 
quote normal things tend to feel

1122
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:35,200
better when you're just trying 
to get miles. 

1123
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,760
And that's totally OK to feel. 
For those of you that are 

1124
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,480
searching shoes, there's a lot 
of options on the market now. 

1125
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:42,840
You can go for the craziest 
stuff if that's working for you.

1126
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:45,000
It keeps you healthy, it keeps 
you excited, great. 

1127
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:48,120
If you're just going to figure 
out what works, if more minimal 

1128
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,000
stuff works for you and keeps 
you getting out the door and 

1129
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,880
keeps you healthy, great. 
I think for this group, and 

1130
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,720
hopefully I'm not speaking for 
everyone out of turn, but I 

1131
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,960
think we when all said and done,
we actually finally get to pick 

1132
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:00,840
something up on our feet. 
It's usually a little bit more 

1133
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:02,720
traditional, a little bit more 
quote UN quote and normal. 

1134
00:57:02,720 --> 00:57:06,120
Not nearly as fancy unless we're
doing something fancy like a 

1135
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:07,360
workout or things like that 
even. 

1136
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,720
And there's some variation. 
So the purpose of this episode 

1137
00:57:10,720 --> 00:57:13,760
was really to help you see 
behind the scenes of not only 

1138
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,320
how we're looking at this stuff,
but also how we figured things 

1139
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,080
out for ourselves because you 
know that there's a lot of 

1140
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,200
information out there. 
We've talked about the run Cat. 

1141
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,720
That's a great place to start. 
And so if that's if you were a 

1142
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:24,920
starting runner, that's a really
good tool to look at. 

1143
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:27,120
And as Nathan mentioned, you can
take a look at the episode that 

1144
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,120
he did talking about that. 
For those of you that have got a

1145
00:57:30,120 --> 00:57:32,600
little more advanced or look are
going, is it OK for me to look 

1146
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:34,560
at me looking at these things? 
Hopefully this gives you a view 

1147
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:37,080
of there are specific things and
there were similarities and 

1148
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,160
differences between what Nathan 
and David were looking at AT and

1149
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:42,720
that came from experience of 
paying attention going what 

1150
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:44,760
works for me, what doesn't. 
And that's something that 

1151
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,160
evolved. 
It might change. 

1152
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:48,640
You know, Nathan, I, I don't 
know if I can speak out of turn 

1153
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:49,800
to this. 
Do you think you had different 

1154
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:53,200
preferences and fit before and 
after you had some of your foot 

1155
00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:54,880
stuff going on? 
Totally. 

1156
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,120
It was. 
It was a different deal for me, 

1157
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,600
yeah. 
So things do change and that is 

1158
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:01,720
totally OK. 
My example is I used to think I 

1159
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:03,360
was nine and half ten. 
I think I'm starting to realize 

1160
00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:05,400
I'm a 10/10 and 1/2 and I'm 
going to have to start maybe 

1161
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,000
asking for some 10 and a halfs. 
We'll have to see, see things 

1162
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,880
change. 
So like I said, hopefully that 

1163
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,400
was helpful to give you some 
background in how we do this, 

1164
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,760
some deeper insight. 
And also hopefully it's helpful 

1165
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,400
for us to start bringing back 
the pizza question. 

1166
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,760
I'd I'd like to start bringing 
that back and have that be more 

1167
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:22,400
important. 
So, as always, we appreciate you

1168
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,080
listening. 
You probably spent like 15 

1169
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:28,360
minutes talking about pizza. 
We did, That's okay, but I feel 

1170
00:58:28,360 --> 00:58:31,360
like that's the OG list. 
The OG list people appreciate 

1171
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:32,880
that. 
How does it help me? 

1172
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:35,320
How do you feel about Domino's? 
You guys like Domino's? 

1173
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:38,560
I think it's fine. 
My favorite is Papa John's for 

1174
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,400
like the we don't really the 
fast stuff. 

1175
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:44,440
Papa John's, that's my jam. 
All right, I love pull a 

1176
00:58:44,440 --> 00:58:48,200
Portland hipster and say that my
OG favorite was Pizza Cotta 

1177
00:58:48,200 --> 00:58:50,600
Pizza 20 years ago, back when I 
was a kid. 

1178
00:58:50,920 --> 00:58:53,360
And now they've gotten franchise
out a little bit and it's not 

1179
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:55,000
quite as good, but it's still 
good. 

1180
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:58,040
And that's kind of a more organ 
specific brand. 

1181
00:58:58,040 --> 00:58:59,520
They have pizza in my heart out 
there. 

1182
00:58:59,760 --> 00:59:04,040
I don't know, I don't think so, 
but New York style is hands 

1183
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:05,600
down, in my opinion, the best. 
Every time. 

1184
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,680
The couple times I'm over there,
it's that's always the greatest.

1185
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,400
So as always, we hope this helps
and you can find us on many 

1186
00:59:12,400 --> 00:59:14,880
different channels. 
We've obviously got this on 

1187
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:16,960
Spotify, iTunes and a variety of
places. 

1188
00:59:16,960 --> 00:59:19,480
You can find podcasts. 
If you want to view this, you 

1189
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,040
can view it on YouTube and other
areas. 

1190
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,160
We've got tons of stuff coming 
out on those platforms. 

1191
00:59:24,160 --> 00:59:26,320
We've got YouTube channel. 
We're always putting out some 

1192
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:29,560
more individual videos and the 
long term visual form of this 

1193
00:59:29,560 --> 00:59:31,640
podcast. 
You can find us as always with 

1194
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:33,200
the original stuff on our 
website. 

1195
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,200
We have lots of different other 
socials between Instagram, 

1196
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:39,680
LinkedIn, which is continually 
impressed me with how much 

1197
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:41,680
interaction we're having on. 
There's some really, really cool

1198
00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,840
things that are are going back 
and forth and X and other 

1199
00:59:44,840 --> 00:59:46,320
places. 
You can always find us and you 

1200
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,720
can always contact us. 
Although we are a little slow 

1201
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:50,920
with emails, you are always 
welcome to send us stuff and 

1202
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,160
we'll probably end up in the 
mailbag if you don't get you 

1203
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,360
directly because we do find what
you all think and say to be very

1204
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:58,600
important. 
We're doing this for you.