1 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:10,320 Hey everyone and welcome to Doctors Running Podcast where 2 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:12,760 we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, talk about the 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:15,080 art and the science of the things that we put on our feed. 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:17,800 Today we have an amazing guest who are very honored to have on 5 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:20,520 the podcast Kara Gautre. Thank you for coming on. 6 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:23,040 Thank you so much. I'm excited to be here. 7 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,880 So we have some questions for you. 8 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,560 And again, as always, the point of this podcast is to be as 9 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:31,000 educational as possible. We're going to go in a couple 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,600 different directions. We are going to see where this 11 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:33,960 goes. But honestly, and I was telling 12 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:36,000 you this part, I'm just geeking out having you here because I 13 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,520 grew up in Portland. Got to see you, got to see your 14 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:41,960 husband, got to see like like all the stuff, reading your book 15 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,320 and going, Oh my gosh, I've known about the stories. 16 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,440 But to get that in depth and actually not be that far away is 17 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:50,360 a very interesting experience. But your strength throughout 18 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:51,720 this is probably the most important thing. 19 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,840 I think that's one of the most inspirational parts, the 20 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:57,600 strength to go through this to continue And now like you're a 21 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,240 parent, you're a pet parent, This is phenomenal. 22 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,000 I'm. I'm even more impressed like 23 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:04,680 because I might have a 7th month old right now And my wife, my 24 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,160 wife who is the superhuman trying to support her like just 25 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:10,320 trying to go through stuff and then you watching you go through 26 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:12,320 this is really cool. So, well, I might, I might go 27 00:01:12,320 --> 00:01:16,920 off topic and pick your brain on like post, like postpartum, like 28 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:19,000 running and things like that. But I don't want to take the 29 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:21,840 podcast because Andrea has some great questions lined up, OK. 30 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:23,520 Yeah. Thanks so much for joining us. 31 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:28,000 Kira, like Matt mentioned, we are talking about Kira's book 32 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:31,520 The Longest Race. It's been out for a while, but 33 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:33,840 it's coming out in paperback in April. 34 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,040 Is that right? It's coming out March 26th, I 35 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:38,800 believe in paperback pretty soon. 36 00:01:39,960 --> 00:01:42,680 So Matt and I both really enjoyed reading your book. 37 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,000 I'm not from Portland, but as a former professional cyclist, I 38 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,320 really related to a lot of the stuff you wrote about your 39 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,800 struggles at Nike and just with the support you were receiving. 40 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,720 So it's kind of cathartic for me to read it because you can talk 41 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,120 to other athletes about it, but then to like see it in print. 42 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:04,600 It was just, I really enjoyed reading your book. 43 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,080 You had very well written, so thank you for coming on and 44 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:13,000 sharing your story with us before we get into the main set. 45 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:16,560 We always do a subjective for our listeners and I think it'll 46 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:18,400 be a good one for all of us to answer to. 47 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,920 So this week's objective is if you could change one thing about 48 00:02:21,920 --> 00:02:23,440 the sport of running, what would it be? 49 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,880 And let's start with Kira. OK, if I could change one thing 50 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,720 about the sport of running, what would it be? 51 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:35,920 I think right now I would change how obsessed we are with times 52 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,920 and I would make us remove clocks and just get back to 53 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:43,720 racing and loving racing. And I think we are. 54 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,760 We're kind of in this shift right now where records are 55 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,480 falling and it's exciting. But I think it has this trickle 56 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,480 down effect through all levels of running. 57 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,040 And I wish we could just get back to like enjoying running 58 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,320 and not always being so focused on the clock and seeing the 59 00:02:56,320 --> 00:03:00,320 clock as your measurement of success instead of like getting 60 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,040 out there and racing and accomplishing something. 61 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,760 So I'm, I'm kind of like on a yeah, that's my thing right now. 62 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:07,960 I wish you could get away from the clock and just focus on 63 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,160 running and racing. I love that it's so much more 64 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,080 fun to just go out and race rather than like, oh, I've got 65 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,440 this goal time and I want to hit my splits. 66 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,960 Like just getting out there, seeing if you can pass people 67 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,840 feeling like you gave your all that's that's so rewarding to 68 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,040 get to the finish line and just feel like you did the best you 69 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,440 could on the day. And maybe you passed a few 70 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,920 people at the end, but then, like if your time isn't APR, 71 00:03:31,920 --> 00:03:34,800 that can almost ruin the experience for you. 72 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,640 And that's not what it's all about. 73 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:38,360 Yeah, I totally. I get. 74 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,920 I get there's a time for chasing times and there's obviously it's 75 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,600 important at the elite level at it's certain circumstances. 76 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,400 But I do feel like yeah, we we've we've forgotten that we no 77 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:51,360 matter what, we probably did our best and just because we didn't 78 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,200 get APR doesn't mean we failed in any way. 79 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:56,920 So I just see it at all levels right now, at the elite level, 80 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,760 at the high school level, at the youth level. 81 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,280 Everyone seems to be be so obsessed with time and I just 82 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,680 wish we could just like pump the brakes and move away from it for 83 00:04:05,680 --> 00:04:06,280 a little bit. Let's. 84 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,400 Get back to the actual pure like what what racing really is. 85 00:04:09,520 --> 00:04:11,440 There's someone thing to race against the clock. 86 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,080 But I totally agree that I think people have lost. 87 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,480 There's an art to racing and sometimes that's racing other 88 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:18,519 people. Sometimes that's just racing 89 00:04:18,519 --> 00:04:21,079 against yourself and like letting go of the clock and 90 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:23,320 going, can I give the best effort out there? 91 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,480 Because especially like when you start talking about longer 92 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:27,280 distances, like, you know, marathon, like for when we're 93 00:04:27,280 --> 00:04:30,320 recording the LA marathon is going on right now and anybody 94 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:32,680 that goes to that course going, yeah, I want to hit X time. 95 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,120 I'm like, do you know what that course is like? 96 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:36,840 It's like it's like a definition. 97 00:04:36,840 --> 00:04:38,600 Of a living, it's a. Hard course. 98 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:41,240 Like even though they say it's a net downhill, I'm like, is it 99 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:42,560 though? It's like up and down. 100 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,680 It's like don't. We're like get the best out of 101 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,120 the day, compete like enjoy that because sometimes there's 102 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,280 elements. Typically a lot LA gets hot. 103 00:04:49,280 --> 00:04:51,080 A lot of the Olympic trials courses get hot. 104 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,800 A lot of the Olympics marathons get really hot. 105 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,440 It's like, well, you know, time may not be as important as just 106 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,640 going out there and like giving your best. 107 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,000 But whether it's an elite athlete and then especially 108 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,000 recreational athlete, I think you made a great point that a 109 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,960 lot of recreational athletes and there's nothing wrong with 110 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,680 pushing yourself. But when you start wrapping up 111 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,800 your entire identity in what exactly your time is, you're 112 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,480 going to lose like the fun aspect of the sport and not to 113 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,880 get really nerdy and technical the more you kind of put some of 114 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,720 the psychological stuff in there. 115 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,360 We know from evidence on that and this is one of my areas 116 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,600 where I really enjoy and I will not say I'm an expert, I'm 117 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,880 learning, but like when it comes to like chronic pain and pathol 118 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,360 and stuff like that, you can start getting psychosomatic 119 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,440 symptoms even if you don't have a tissue injury And you that 120 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,560 pain is very real. And so I've seen lots of the 121 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,440 people recently, especially before LA going, I got to hit 122 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,600 this time and I'm freaking out. I'm like, you're I I can't trace 123 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,280 your back pain to any source except your fear, Fear, pain is 124 00:05:47,280 --> 00:05:49,800 a threat response. And so I think you're told I'm 125 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:51,120 like, living this right now and watch. 126 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,400 And I've definitely experienced that too, in college with the, 127 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,080 like, pressure of, you know, I did not compete on the same 128 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,160 level that you or your husband did or that Andrew's a pro 129 00:05:58,160 --> 00:05:59,720 athlete. But I still got to compete in 130 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,920 the NCAA system and you're freaking out. 131 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,280 How am I going to make it? And stuff pops up. 132 00:06:04,280 --> 00:06:07,920 It's life's too short. Yeah. 133 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,000 And you lose, like, you know, obviously I'm a little bit 134 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,200 older. And so we didn't have GPS until 135 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:15,680 I was a professional, right? So like, I just grew up like, I 136 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:17,920 don't even know how long my runs were when I was in high school. 137 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,720 I thought they were 5 miles. They're probably like 3 1/2 or 138 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,840 whatever. But I feel like we've lost, 139 00:06:22,840 --> 00:06:26,160 like, just your intrinsic data of of like, that feeling of 140 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,640 like, OK, I'm a little over the edge. 141 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,080 I need to back off because we just do this and we're like, 142 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:34,240 well, my watch says I'm OK even though, you know, I'm my watch 143 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:36,400 is I'm on the right pace, even though I can barely breathe 144 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,760 right now. Or my watch says I'm doing fine, 145 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:40,520 even though maybe you could be pushing more. 146 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,640 So I just, yeah, I just feel like we've gotten away from 147 00:06:43,840 --> 00:06:45,920 there's a place for the watch 100%. 148 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:48,040 It's a good guidance, but we've gotten away from people just 149 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:50,080 being in touch with their bodies, which is like the most 150 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,360 fun part about running is like when you have those breakthrough 151 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:54,040 days 'cause you trusted yourself. 152 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,560 And Andrea, remind me, there is, I think this was done in 153 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,880 cyclists that some of the best measurements of knowing how 154 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,160 you're recovering and your effort levels actually come from 155 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,880 internal measurements of like yourself perceived about rather 156 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:07,840 than like watch GPS and stuff like that. 157 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:09,560 Is that correct? Am I citing that correctly? 158 00:07:09,920 --> 00:07:12,160 I don't know if that was a cycling study, but I would 159 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:15,600 certainly agree with that. That, like your internal 160 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,640 indicators of how you're feeling, are more accurate than 161 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,040 like anything your watch is going to tell you for sure. 162 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:24,320 Kara, it's slightly off topic. Kara, I don't know, I don't 163 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:25,320 think. Sorry, Andrea. 164 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,680 I was just going to say I'm, I'm almost curious age and I, you 165 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,120 know, didn't have AGPS watch till college and same thing. 166 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,800 Like I remember in high school and middle school you just went 167 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,680 out and ran. And I remember one of my team 168 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,640 mates, sisters who was an NCAA runner, she could perfectly pace 169 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:47,520 any run we did. And then if like you went back 170 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,320 and measured it with the car, she was spot on. 171 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:54,400 Like we had run this pace and this many miles and it was so 172 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,520 impressive. And like, how many people can do 173 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,320 that now? We're so reliant on our GPS 174 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,280 watches to tell us. So yeah, I think there's a big 175 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,360 place for just putting a piece of tape over your watch or 176 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:09,640 hiding it in your pocket and just going out and running. 177 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,640 You know, I had I when I first started running for my high 178 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:16,000 school, I just had a Swatch watch and like my coach would be 179 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,560 like go run for 30 minutes and I'd look and I'd be like, OK, 180 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:23,520 it's 330 and I'll turn around at 3:45 and then I this is actually 181 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,280 in the book. But I qualified for Foot Locker, 182 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:27,840 which was like the national high school championship at the time. 183 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:29,640 And we went for a run and everyone like started their 184 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,320 Timex. So I ended up getting the Timex 185 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:33,400 for Christmas that year. But I'm glad. 186 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,720 I'm actually glad that that's how I grew up because it really 187 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:40,159 was about like, how are you feeling or or just like the 188 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:41,840 time? But no, I'm, you know, I wasn't 189 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,799 getting feedback on how fast I was running. 190 00:08:43,799 --> 00:08:46,520 It was just like, oh, my coach wants me back in 30 minutes, so, 191 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,280 oh, I hit 15 minutes. I'm gonna turn around. 192 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,320 So I don't know, there's something pure about that. 193 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,320 And it's funny, 'cause I have a 13 year old and he has a Garmin. 194 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,360 He got one for Christmas and he's super obsessed with it. 195 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,040 And sometimes I'm like, I should take that away from him, take 196 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:04,560 that away. I'm listening very closely on 197 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:05,920 parenting. Trips like OK, when do I? 198 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,320 Take the tech away, even if they can get mad at me. 199 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,080 Yeah, he forgets it a lot because he's 13, so that at 200 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,440 least is good. Like he only runs twice a week 201 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,760 and so he really only gets half of his runs on there. 202 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,360 But he'll be like plugging it in and looking at it. 203 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,920 And I'm like 13. I didn't even have a Timex yet, 204 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,840 you know. I'm laughing especially hard, 205 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:27,800 'cause I was like, I wonder what watch he had. 206 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:29,240 I was like, I bet it was a Timex. 207 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:31,400 It was like, yeah, 'cause I had one of the original, the the 208 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,440 same Timex watches for years. And then it would, like, break 209 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,560 apart, stop like after like several years. 210 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,960 And you go to Fred Meyers and go find the new one. 211 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,000 That's $20 And like, how is this only $20? 212 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:43,480 This thing is amazing. And then I know now they're 300, 213 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,720 so. Yeah, I know that you can't get 214 00:09:45,720 --> 00:09:47,360 those cheap ones anymore, but. No. 215 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,320 Oh well. Slightly off topic, I don't 216 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,000 know. So talking about like learning 217 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,480 it like internal sensation of like pace and things like that. 218 00:09:55,680 --> 00:09:57,480 I don't know if you know this, and we talk about this all the 219 00:09:57,480 --> 00:09:58,640 time because we're all shoe geeks. 220 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,080 A lot of the current evidence for finding the optimal shoe for 221 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,040 you actually has moved very much away from the biomechanical 222 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:06,240 model. So all the stuff like, oh, you 223 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,720 got to get on the treadmill and you have to have this level 224 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:12,080 alignment that is not working. It's not consistent. 225 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,840 What we've actually found is that how you feel in the shoe, 226 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:16,640 how comfortable it is and there's a couple cool 227 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,440 researchers that actually paired it down to five different 228 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,280 sensations. Those things, how you perceive 229 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,400 it is actually way more predictive of whether a shoes 230 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,320 going to work for you or not. Way more so than hey, get on the 231 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,040 treadmill, how do you look? So it's like, oh, this is? 232 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:31,280 Interesting, that kind of things. 233 00:10:31,560 --> 00:10:34,680 So the five things are how is the cushioning in the heel? 234 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:36,800 How is the cushioning in the forefoot? 235 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,560 How is the overall flexibility? How is the stability? 236 00:10:40,560 --> 00:10:43,800 And then how is the fit And there's no, it's not like, oh 237 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,800 more is better it's is it's. Just right for. 238 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:48,120 You. Yes, OK. 239 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:50,800 Yeah, that makes. I mean, that makes sense, right? 240 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,800 It's called the Run Cat Scale, so it's actually more effective 241 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,520 if you hold cats while you're doing it. 242 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,200 I'm sorry. I love that. 243 00:10:58,520 --> 00:10:59,960 I would love to hold my cats and run. 244 00:10:59,960 --> 00:11:03,720 I'm sure they'd be thrilled. Yeah, I'm really glad I got that 245 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:04,960 joke. I was able to hold a straight 246 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:05,920 case of that. It was good. 247 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,800 Thank you. So Matt, what would, if you 248 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,880 could change one thing about the sport of running, what would it 249 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:12,840 be? Oh, that's a good question. 250 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:15,440 I mean Kara, you you nailed that one in terms of like getting 251 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,360 people back to focusing on the joy of running and not getting 252 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:19,960 so data. Obsessed with the data can be 253 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,320 helpful if you use it the right way probably. 254 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,200 Mine comes actually not from me. So my wife is the pro runner 255 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,360 she's she was sponsored by Salomon and so that's things 256 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:32,560 have changed a little bit since having a a kid and she's kind of 257 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:34,760 trying to come back in shape. But I I will say, and hopefully 258 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,320 this doesn't come off negatively, I did not understand 259 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,480 even knowing and like knowing some of the like hearing things, 260 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:46,720 not being a pro athlete myself. I didn't know what that looked 261 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:50,280 like for us runners until I was with my wife and then got to see 262 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:54,480 what sponsorship really looks like and then get to meet people 263 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:57,800 from Europe and look at what their sponsorship looks like. 264 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,640 And so if I would change anything, and if somebody asked 265 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,560 me how, I had no idea, it would be to actually provide some kind 266 00:12:04,560 --> 00:12:09,840 of true system to truly support athletes and runners. 267 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,600 Because what they're doing right now is just, it's not 268 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,240 sustainable and it's so hard. It's so much extra stress. 269 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,560 Like, thank goodness she and I both had full time jobs and I 270 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:20,840 could support her and I she had a she had a pacer. 271 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,480 It's really hard. So if you don't have those 272 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:26,640 things, I can't even imagine. So I would change how we support 273 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:28,400 the athletes. What that looks like and how 274 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,640 that goes about, I have no idea. But that's the biggest thing, 275 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:32,880 watching her go through this stuff. 276 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,760 So let's I think the one thing I would change and I I think I say 277 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:40,360 this because it's definitely applicable to me right now is I 278 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:43,120 think in especially in the recreational runner realm or 279 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,640 like the non pro realm, people focus so much on the marathon 280 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:51,160 like oh like that's the pinnacle of running you know. 281 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,840 But for those of us who aren't like really geared towards that 282 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,920 distance, running a fast 5K is just as awesome as running a 283 00:12:59,920 --> 00:13:02,120 fast marathon. And it takes a different skill 284 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:06,680 set and different Physiology. So I wish that just the running 285 00:13:06,680 --> 00:13:11,920 world in general would celebrate or focus on every race distance 286 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:15,320 as something special as opposed to like, oh, if you're a runner, 287 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:17,040 like you have to run the marathon. 288 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,360 Otherwise you know what are you doing. 289 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:24,120 Yeah I love both of those contract reform and and the 290 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:26,760 marathon isn't the know I'll end all be all like I'll never run 291 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:29,000 another marathon. Realistically, I won't. 292 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,080 And that So what? I just don't have purpose and I 293 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:35,880 can't like have joy in my running anymore, you know, and I 294 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,080 mean, this is coming from someone who absolutely loved the 295 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,400 marathon, but it's it's not for everybody. 296 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,640 And it's like, I feel like when people find out that you're a 297 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:45,640 runner, if they're not, if they're not runners, they're 298 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:47,320 like, well, how fast can you run a mile and have you run a 299 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:48,800 marathon? You know? 300 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,160 And you're like, I'm going to disappoint you here because my 301 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,760 mile's not that fast. And yes, I've run a marathon, 302 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,320 but, you know, it's just, it's it. 303 00:13:57,320 --> 00:13:59,720 It's like, that's just like what people assume is the next 304 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,800 logical step. So I agree, like, training for a 305 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,360 5K can be fun and rewarding. And everybody's different. 306 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:06,600 Everyone has different skill sets. 307 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:09,160 And that shouldn't be like, oh, just a 5K. 308 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,360 It's like, that's awesome. You're running a 5K. 309 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:12,960 That is so cool. Yeah. 310 00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:17,080 It's like in cycling, like, oh, you're a pro cyclist. 311 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:18,680 Have you ever done the Tour de France? 312 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,800 Well, there's. No Women's Tour de. 313 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:24,400 France there used to be. Well, I'm a woman. 314 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:29,440 And then also, yeah, couple things stacked against me here. 315 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,240 Yeah, it's like all or nothing. And I don't. 316 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:33,120 I don't. And. 317 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:35,440 And why? I mean, again, I love the 318 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,280 marathon, but why is that? The distance that we've decided 319 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,040 is like the one distance that proves you're a real run, right? 320 00:14:41,960 --> 00:14:43,920 You know, like, that's ridiculous and that just 321 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,280 excludes so much of the community that we have. 322 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,600 So if you want to run a marathon, awesome. 323 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:51,280 If you don't, that's fine too. You can run whatever you want. 324 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,680 That's the whole point. Some of us want to see how fast 325 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:56,040 we can do A5 cable pushing a stroller, which is where my life 326 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:57,080 is right now, yeah. See. 327 00:14:57,160 --> 00:14:59,360 I still find that if I buy Stroller PRS now. 328 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,040 Yeah, see it? My son. 329 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:02,760 My son, I know he could run faster. 330 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,480 He ran 1857 in the 5K in October and I made him run the first few 331 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,200 minutes with me because we had to accidentally gotten into the 332 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,240 elite wave. And so I made him run with me 333 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,880 for like 3-4 minutes and then finally I said you can go. 334 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:20,680 So I know he could run faster, but I was like, I I mean, I'm 335 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,360 kind of regretting it, but I was like, I'm gonna run the 5K at 336 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:25,360 the Boston Marathon and see if I can beat his time. 337 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,040 Well, it's funny that you started off talking about, like, 338 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,600 pain and like because everything hurts trying to run, 'cause 339 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,800 you're on six O 6 pace. And so I haven't run anything 340 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:36,160 like that in years and trying to get down to those times. 341 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:37,520 And like, I think I hurt my Patella. 342 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,160 I think I hurt, you know? And then you're like, what do 343 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:42,280 you like? What's your fear? 344 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,400 I'm like, Oh yeah, it's that I'm not as fast as my son. 345 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,840 Like, it's 100% when I'm terrified of my body showing it. 346 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,120 But anyway, it's been really fun to just like, I can't. 347 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,920 I can really Max out at 40 miles a week where I feel comfortable, 348 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:56,680 but it's been fun to do like a little long run, a day with 349 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:58,400 strides and a day with some repeats. 350 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:00,360 And I'm like this. I could get into this, you know, 351 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,160 I could get into doing this a couple times a year. 352 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:05,280 And it's super rewarding to see my progress, even though it's 353 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:06,840 not flashing and it's not a marathon. 354 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:08,760 I've made my own little progress and so. 355 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:11,400 Yeah, so I get. So the question is follow up. 356 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:16,320 So how do we normalize like the that in terms of going, yes, the 357 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,000 40 miles a week that is your excellence level and everybody 358 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:21,320 loves to just keep adding comparisons on and on. 359 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,040 Why can't, like people learn to focus on themselves and being 360 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,440 the best version of where they are, wherever that is? 361 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:30,400 Like, that's that's the hard part. 362 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,840 I mean, I I do feel things like Strava and stuff are good and 363 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:35,600 bad, right? Because they just blow it up. 364 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,840 Like, like I just started sharing on Strava again for the 365 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:43,320 first time in almost 10 years. And the first post I had was my 366 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:46,240 first double digit run I've done in almost a year. 367 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,400 And I was. I was embarrassed to share it 368 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,760 and I put in the caption like I'm embarrassed to post this but 369 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,840 I'm actually really proud of it because I haven't run in the 370 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,800 double digits in almost a year but but and it's been good it's 371 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,600 been a good experience. I I you know I'm on the 372 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,120 treadmill a lot with my dystonia and I and so I have been posting 373 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,240 my outdoor runs and it's been it's been good but it's I think 374 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,839 that stuff is tough and like I I part of the reason why I do want 375 00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:12,720 to share too is like I'm a person I used to run 135 miles a 376 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,760 week and I used to be like really good and now you know I'm 377 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,040 like normal and I'm but I but it's still I would run every day 378 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,200 because I have a goal which is tried around 1857 which is 379 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,240 probably not going to happen but I'm still going to try and and 380 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:31,440 I've enjoyed training for it you know and so yeah I think it's 381 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:35,040 important to to quote UN quote just normalize that stuff and 382 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:38,760 also I'm just going off on a tangent we warned. 383 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,120 You about this by the way. I also want to normalize that. 384 00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:45,840 We get older and our bodies change and sometimes we have 385 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,240 injuries or other things and sometimes, you know it. 386 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,240 We have to step away from what we thought made us worthy. 387 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,360 Like, I used to pride myself on that. 388 00:17:54,360 --> 00:17:57,080 I was a high mileage person. Like I all my coaches were like, 389 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:58,720 you're a workhorse, not a thoroughbred. 390 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:00,680 It did not hurt my feelings. I love that. 391 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,800 I embrace that. And now I I really Max out at 40 392 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,960 miles a week. Well, that's not workhorse in 393 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,840 it, but it is for me now, right? Like that's my new level. 394 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,680 So what would you say then to realize that there might be 395 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:17,000 somebody who 40 miles a week is a lot that might be a huge 396 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,720 amount, so that again that. It's like it's all relative, 397 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,400 right? It's all relative. 398 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,000 Like, I mean, I used to be a full time athlete. 399 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,480 That's all I did. I had the luxury of running and 400 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,400 napping and running in and getting massage and like you 401 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:32,920 know, having my normal tech boots and constantly having 402 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,360 people fawn over me and help me recover. 403 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,200 That's how I was able to run 135 miles a week. 404 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,240 That's not what I have any more. And now you know, I I still, I 405 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,880 just still pamper myself and see therapists and stuff, but I Max 406 00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,080 out at 40 and that's a huge difference. 407 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,320 But that's that's what I can do and I'm proud that I can do that 408 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,920 and but that's all relative for someone else. 409 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:55,720 It might be 10 miles a week, it might be. 410 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,840 I mean, I don't know. My son runs like 7 or 8 miles a 411 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:00,680 week and he's a runner, you know? 412 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,840 That's a whole other conversation on what's what is a 413 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,240 runner. It's like you run. 414 00:19:05,320 --> 00:19:08,720 You don't need to find it any more than that A. 100%, yeah. 415 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,280 I would definitely say that like you said, Strava and social 416 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,960 media really encourages people to like do the Max like how am I 417 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,120 going to impress my friends like, oh, I did like this huge 418 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,240 run today. But in the end, like, unless 419 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,840 we're professional athletes, we're running for ourselves. 420 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,160 And that's definitely something that has been different for me, 421 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,400 like coming from professional cycling and then taking up 422 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,200 running, which was my first sport, but I was definitely not 423 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:40,920 anywhere near a professional. And running like I run because I 424 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,560 like it and because I have goals for myself. 425 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,840 But it's not the same as cycling where like you show up to a race 426 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,400 and like you, you know your race is the main event. 427 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,440 Like my running races aren't like that. 428 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,880 You know, like maybe I'll win like a local 5K or something, 429 00:19:56,880 --> 00:20:00,800 but you know, I'm not racing internationally for running and 430 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,120 no one cares about like my place and running besides like my 431 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:08,560 friends and family, you know. So I think we just need to 432 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:13,200 normalize like internal goals versus external goals. 433 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:16,120 That's for most of us. That's what running is about. 434 00:20:16,120 --> 00:20:18,120 Is like you're doing it for yourself. 435 00:20:18,120 --> 00:20:21,200 If you're doing it for kudos on Strava or like. 436 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:23,640 Likes on Instagram. That's cool too. 437 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,280 But you know you're going to find yourself feeling 438 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,240 unfulfilled at some point, so it's good to find those that 439 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,680 internal motivation, those internal goals that will keep 440 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:35,880 you going. So I do want to pivot because 441 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,280 you mentioned something that that I that I think Angie and I 442 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:40,640 talked about for that we're super curious about given this 443 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,200 is kind of like a little more healthcare based. 444 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:45,120 I don't think you mentioned I should know this since I just 445 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,520 read the whole book yesterday. I don't think you mentioned this 446 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,040 in your book, but can you talk a little bit about the Your 447 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:53,320 runner's Dystonia? Yeah. 448 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,280 So I, you know, I'd still like an ongoing process, but I was 449 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:05,640 when was I diagnosed? I was diagnosed in in 2022, 450 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:09,160 early 2022, I think February. But my symptoms started a long 451 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:12,520 time before that and they started basically at the end of 452 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,080 2020. I just felt, felt like I was 453 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,240 slipping all the time. I would like sit down on the 454 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,720 side walk and see if I'd like a leaf on my shoe, especially when 455 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,760 I would make a right hand turn. And I at first I was like, I 456 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,160 know this is just totally stress related because my grandpa just 457 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,080 died. It's we're coming into the 458 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:32,240 holidays. I'm always tired. 459 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,840 This time of year I was catching my toe a lot and then I took 460 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,280 like a really bad fall. Like really bad like fell on my 461 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:42,440 treadmill. I actually passed out woke up 462 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:46,160 and after that I just never could run and feel comfortable 463 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,160 again And and I'm you know like I I'm like I'm an Olympian. 464 00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,040 There's nothing wrong with me and trying to run through it. 465 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,320 And then finally one day I was out running and I fell into 466 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,760 traffic and I called my husband. He came and got me and he's like 467 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,760 you have to go to the doctor's. So that started a like a full 468 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,440 year of going to doctors and which led me led me down this 469 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,520 other path where you know I spent hours and hours in the MRI 470 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,560 machine. Turns out my spine is great, 471 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,560 absolutely fantastic. Which then had me scan my brain 472 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,320 where I found out that I had some some quite a few lesions 473 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,000 which like now I have to be. I'm worried about what I never 474 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,160 even needed to know I had it cause probably a bunch of people 475 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,920 have them but I just know that I have them which led me down to 476 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:28,360 it. It's probably Ms., which it 477 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:32,720 wasn't anyway all this time, but finally I saw a movement 478 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,920 specialist who I was pretty sure that's what it was. 479 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,360 And then I got in at the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota and they 480 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:45,040 confirmed the diagnosis. So it's been really tough 481 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,120 because it's not something I can push through. 482 00:22:47,120 --> 00:22:49,680 And actually when I try to push through it, my symptoms get 483 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:52,960 worse. So it's been really hard. 484 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:55,960 I mean, I I'm like 2 years in now and I'm definitely in a 485 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,320 better space. But the first year was really 486 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:02,560 difficult because I would catch a good day and push and then be 487 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,320 like, well, I'm I'm over it or I'm doing better. 488 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,240 And then I'd push again and then I would get down this hole where 489 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,440 it would get worse and my symptoms would get worse and it 490 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,760 would last. And it's just been really 491 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:13,800 frustrating. It's super hard to describe, but 492 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,280 you guys would know what dystonia is. 493 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,680 But basically like how it was explained to me the very first 494 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,480 day was somehow my brain wires got crossed and when my left leg 495 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,000 goes to move forward, all of the muscles fire at once instead of 496 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,400 just the muscles that are needed. 497 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,520 And so I have no awareness that, like, my foot has landed on the 498 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,880 ground. To me it feels like like when I 499 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,480 was going to the doctors I'd be like, I'm I'm from Minnesota and 500 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,440 I'd be like it's like I'm I'm blindfolded and I'm stepping on 501 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,840 freshly Zamboni ice. I can't tell if and they're 502 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,040 like, OK, but that's how it felt like, like I can't tell if my 503 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:55,400 foot is making contact or not because the the it's so icy and 504 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,680 it's so clean and it's so smooth that I can't tell. 505 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,640 So anyway, it's been a really annoying and frustrating 506 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,520 process, but I don't know, basically. 507 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:06,400 There you go. That's right. 508 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:07,920 Well, I appreciate you sharing that stuff that. 509 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:10,640 So what, what we wanted to kind of ask is, Andrea, have you ever 510 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,520 seen anybody with Runner's Dystonia before? 511 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,200 Not with Runner's dystonia, but I've had a number of patients 512 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,800 with, you know, regular dystonia, and what works for 513 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,200 them varies. Some people respond well to 514 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,200 injections. Some people respond well to 515 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,320 myofascial work. Everybody you know benefits from 516 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,200 finding, like the right level of exercise. 517 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,400 But finding that, as I'm sure you've figured out, Kara, is 518 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:36,920 challenging and it changes day-to-day. 519 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,640 So what treatments have you tried, if you're willing to 520 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,680 share, and what has worked and what hasn't worked? 521 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,400 So the doctor at Mayo Clinic put me on a medicine that did not 522 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,240 work. It made me nauseous and I felt 523 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:55,000 like I was taking steps back. So I have been on Ben Stroping 524 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:59,880 like Cogentin, but I was on it multiple times a day and I felt 525 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:03,360 so good and so normal, but I started to have a hard time. 526 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,160 I guess one of the side effects is like a little bit of brain 527 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:08,720 fog. And I was having a hard time 528 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,880 saying what I was trying to think of and my my husband and 529 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,680 son kept filling in the gaps. And obviously my job is a 530 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,720 commentator. So I had to kind of come off of 531 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,800 it because I like my job and I can't. 532 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,600 And. Then be like, oh, everybody 533 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,480 hold, Give me 10 seconds to collect my thoughts, you know? 534 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,200 So now I just take it before I run on what would be considered 535 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,800 a scary surface for me, which would be like a road or anything 536 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:36,880 smooth. I have a hard time on, so I'll 537 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,280 just take it about 30 minutes if I'm gonna run, like, if I'm 538 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,000 gonna run from my house to a trail, I'll take it because I 539 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:43,520 have to run on pavement to get there. 540 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,000 So I take it a few days a week now 30 minutes before I run and 541 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:53,280 then and then I've done Botox injections because it basically 542 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,520 kills the the signal like the brain fires the signal for 543 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,560 everything to fire. But it can't because your leg is 544 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,360 is dead. And I wasn't convinced that it 545 00:26:02,360 --> 00:26:04,520 was helping me. So this past year I let it wear 546 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:09,800 completely off and I had, I had I was like back to Ground Zero. 547 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,640 So that was actually a good experiment. 548 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:15,080 It was very frustrating because then I had, you know, I had to 549 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,640 redo the Botox and then I had to wait for it to kick in and then, 550 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:19,560 you know, it builds over treatment time. 551 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,760 So in the end I was like really annoyed with myself, but I'm 552 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,360 glad I did it because I just wasn't sure. 553 00:26:25,360 --> 00:26:26,920 Is this helping me? Is it not helping me? 554 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,520 I don't really know. So for me, I definitely think it 555 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,080 is helping me, but I've gone to see a neurological PTI go in for 556 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:38,960 PT regularly with a regular PT. I'm always kind of like trying 557 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,400 new things and I've I have found that a lot of it, I feel like a 558 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,840 lot of it is connected to my left glute not firing. 559 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,560 I don't know if you want to go down this path. 560 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:56,480 And I feel like when it's not firing properly, I feel like my 561 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,600 dystonia gets worse. And so I've been doing a lot of 562 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,320 like needlework and trying to wake that up. 563 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,120 And then I've also found that, like, if I if I work a 564 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:05,480 broadcast, I cannot run the next day. 565 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:09,000 Because even though I'm just sitting there, I'm thinking and 566 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,640 I'm paying really close attention. 567 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,880 And it it really, I've learned that it drains my nervous 568 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,560 system. And even though physically I 569 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,000 feel fine, when I try to run the day after calling a race, I'm 570 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,840 really sloppy and I tend to trip and I get frustrated and then I 571 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:26,960 start to dig that hole. So yeah, this is. 572 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,120 So cool that you've picked. Not only have you do you really 573 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:32,520 like this is probably the benefit of being such a great 574 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,280 athlete is you're you have such good body awareness to be able 575 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,440 to not only describe this because the one person that I 576 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,200 got I had the honor to work with who had runners dystonia at 577 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,120 Costa Colina locally here when I was doing my residency for Ortho 578 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,440 was like had such a hard time describing what it felt like. 579 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,760 And so, even though I've never see, I am from the Northwest, so 580 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,360 I know what a Zamboni is, I've. Never seen one. 581 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,360 Like tell how like like how temperate our weather is. 582 00:27:58,360 --> 00:27:59,680 We don't have Zombonis in the Northwest. 583 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,680 But I I. Like your description, your 584 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:06,200 description makes total sense like that brand new ice that 585 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,480 like in a in an ice break that's just and I'm like that is such a 586 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,600 great way of describing that And the individual who I who was 587 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,840 what was just struggling trying to describe what she was 588 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,240 experiencing. But again, the symptoms really 589 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,080 came on with those more maximal running efforts and things like 590 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,920 that. And it was, it's interesting 591 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:25,680 that you can verbalize this so well because so many people seem 592 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,040 to struggle with it. Yeah, it's a challenge with your 593 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,280 nervous system and it's a, it's a very big, like a really good 594 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,680 insight into the fact that, you know, with or without dystonia. 595 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,240 We, whether you're recreational elite, we do not give enough 596 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,080 credit to the nervous system. Like you do a really hard day or 597 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,520 like have an exam or a really busy day. 598 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,600 The next day, you're not going to be firing at 100%. 599 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,400 It's you can't get mad at yourself that your GPS watch 600 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,160 says you're not running at the best effort. 601 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,960 Like you're fatigued like and you people don't pay attention 602 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,480 to the there's like, oh it's just all muscle. 603 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,320 Like no, everything's controlled by this thing called your 604 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,480 nervous system which can get fatigued. 605 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,600 And so it's I think of all I feel like you have such a great 606 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,600 platform to speak about this. You go hey, everybody needs to 607 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,080 wake up and realize you actually need to be taking good care of 608 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,880 your nervous system. We overwork it all the time. 609 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,040 It's like we spent all day on these things and. 610 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,320 Yeah, yeah. And it it, you know at the end 611 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,000 of the day, it really is like I've had to relearn as we 612 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,320 started at the beginning of this podcast of like being in touch 613 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,160 with my body and being like OK, yesterday was a great day. 614 00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:29,120 So now I know I'm a little fatigued. 615 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,880 Now I know I'm tired. I get in the lever a lot like 616 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,320 because it just takes body weight off. 617 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,120 And then I'm also it makes me feel secure because I'm like, 618 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,920 you know, I'm kind of like locked in, you know, and it 619 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,680 helps me a lot and I mean I'm addicted to sunshine. 620 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,000 So it's it's been an adjustment to spend a lot of time indoors 621 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:50,240 and only run outside a few days a week. 622 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,840 But I, but also, I've been so encouraged by my neurologist. 623 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,680 She's like, don't stop, don't give up on yourself. 624 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,240 I know what your limits are like. 625 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,840 People get afraid. And I get it, 'cause I was 626 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,680 afraid at first, too. The very first Doctor Who 627 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,480 diagnosed me was like, you know, you need to be careful because 628 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,880 we don't know a lot about dystonia. 629 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,080 And this could just be the beginning flames of a bigger 630 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:10,720 fire and it could spread through your body. 631 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,400 And you don't want to be able to not walk, 'cause there were 632 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,120 periods of time where I struggled to walk and I was 633 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,720 like, well, OK, this is the worst news ever. 634 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,640 Like, I was crying so hard and he was like, well, you're not 635 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:22,600 going to die from it. And I'm like, you're basically 636 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,080 telling me I'm dead because you're telling me I can't run 637 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,920 anymore, you know? And she. 638 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,000 But she was like, no, like, they they don't know you. 639 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,960 Like, let's find out what your limits are. 640 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,480 I'm, you're going to be able to have something, and let's find 641 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,960 out what that is. And so we're a little over two 642 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,040 years in, and I feel like we're still learning. 643 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,560 But I'm glad. I'm really grateful for her to 644 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,080 encourage me. Like, no, let's you can run. 645 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:48,720 We just don't know what it looks like. 646 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,880 Yeah, having a good care team and people that believe in you 647 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,520 and let you lead is so important. 648 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,160 Unsurprisingly, she's a runner herself. 649 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,200 So. I wonder why she's able to think 650 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,320 about this for me. Yeah, Kara, because there's so 651 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,480 few movement specialists in the country, could you share who 652 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,360 your doctor is? Because there's probably people 653 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,840 listening who have dystonia and maybe don't have a movement 654 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,200 specialist near them, and it might be helpful for them to 655 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,040 know who has helped you so much. Yeah, so I see Doctor Jill 656 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,120 Olson. She is not a neurological 657 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,200 movement specialist. This is like the most female 658 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,120 thing she's ever said to me. And she's like, well, I'm just a 659 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,200 neurologist. I want you to see this, you 660 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,680 know, this other doctor. I'm like just a neurologist. 661 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,440 OK, So anyway, she's amazing and awesome and she has worked with 662 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,240 me from the beginning, but she sent me to see Doctor Trevor 663 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,760 Hawkins, who's also in Colorado, who is an incredibly gifted 664 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,960 movement specialist. That's what he does. 665 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:46,440 And so yeah, Doctor Trevor Hawkins, he's the one that gave 666 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,000 me the first diagnosis and was I was kind of like, I don't 667 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,200 believe him, you know, And then I've got into the Mayo Clinic 668 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,720 where they confirmed it. But he was able to diagnose me 669 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,760 like in moments because he's just really good at him. 670 00:31:57,760 --> 00:31:59,800 He's really good at seeing the body and everything. 671 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,320 Pattern recognition. Yeah, And you know, dystonia is 672 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,240 not a sensory disorder. But I wonder, have you noticed 673 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,360 that there's a difference in how you feel based on which shoes 674 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,920 you're wearing? Like, if you have more input 675 00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:18,040 from the ground, does that change how your dystonia 676 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,080 behaves? Or have you not really noticed a 677 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,880 pattern in that regard? It's it's interesting you asked 678 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:24,920 me that because when I get back from the Boston Marathon, I'm 679 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:30,000 going to go do all this testing with different shoes on down in 680 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,880 Denver, like kind of try this new thing out, like right before 681 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,080 I get my Botox again and then right after and try a bunch of 682 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,840 different shoes and and they're going to like measure all the 683 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:40,960 whatever. They're going to do all this 684 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,040 stuff and then they're going to give me data because I love 685 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:43,480 data. Awesome. 686 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,160 But I will say with shoes, I don't necessarily notice a huge 687 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,160 difference, but it's surface. Absolutely. 688 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,960 So I I really like crushed gravel because I can hear it. 689 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,960 I can hear my foot hit it. Yeah. 690 00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,560 And and I like it to be a little bit uneven because in my foot 691 00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,080 plants a little weird and I'll get a little sensation up my 692 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,800 leg. That's why I think I hate 693 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,240 pavement. Pavement makes me really 694 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:09,720 uncomfortable and nervous. But also I don't like, I like 695 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,280 trail, but I don't like anything really Ruddy or rocky because I 696 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,640 don't have awareness of how much I'm lifting my leg. 697 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,840 And so I trip a lot. So for me, it's like we have 698 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,840 this path in boulder called Boba Link. 699 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,000 I run there all the time or around Wonderland Lake. 700 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480 It's also crushed gravel and that's really good for me 701 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,840 because I can hear it and I get that feedback. 702 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,200 And when I was working with the neurological PT, she also had me 703 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,080 for a while, like tie something on my left leg that would make a 704 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,600 noise, which it did help me. I just got annoyed with it 705 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,400 myself. But it did help me because it 706 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,360 just reminded me, like, oh, my leg is there, it's landing. 707 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,120 I can hear it. You know, I can hear it when 708 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:46,800 it's hitting the ground. So sensory stuff. 709 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,880 And a lot of that was brought on because, you know, I had been to 710 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,120 neurologists and all this stuff, and it started to get better. 711 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,160 So we kind of put it behind us. I didn't have Ms. And then it 712 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,280 came back and it was so much worse the second time. 713 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,920 And my husband took a video of me I didn't know he was 714 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,320 recording me. And we were walking home from 715 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,840 walking our son to school. And I kept purposely walking 716 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:08,560 over to the leaves because the crunching of the leaves made me 717 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,560 feel better. And I I wouldn't have even said 718 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,199 that to anybody except for that when he showed that video to the 719 00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,639 doctor, The doctor was like, why are you walking on leaves? 720 00:34:17,639 --> 00:34:19,520 And I said, well, I don't know, there's something comforting 721 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,440 about hearing the leaves crunch. So it's really for me, sensory 722 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:25,600 feedback is super important. It makes me feel more. 723 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,719 Comfortable. Makes sense? 724 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,520 That is so cool. How adaptive the human body is 725 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,840 going. Well, this is not doing what I 726 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,320 want, so I'm gonna use this other system in this really cool 727 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,760 way. I really, really appreciate you 728 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,159 sharing that. It's like people are very 729 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,560 adaptive and the human body is really cool. 730 00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,480 And just one more question, What muscles do they Botox? 731 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:45,040 Like what has worked best for you? 732 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,199 So for me, it's my posterior Tib and then right in my calf. 733 00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:52,800 So those two areas and it's a little less in my calf and a 734 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:54,600 little bit more in my posterior Tib. 735 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:58,960 And we've also played around with dosage, like we did way too 736 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,640 much last summer. But my doctor said, like she 737 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,120 said, do you want to try more? If it's too much, you're going 738 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:06,280 to know. And I was like, yeah. 739 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,920 And then within three weeks I was like, damn it, it was way 740 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,880 too much and my my leg got kind of weak. 741 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,320 And so then I, you know, went to PT and tried to strengthen my 742 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,800 leg leg in other ways. So that's the other thing too, 743 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,960 is it's, it's such a game of patience because there is no, I 744 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,360 mean she did it on, she does it always with EMG. 745 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,640 So she always has a needle in my leg and I'm like pushing and 746 00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:29,440 she's hearing it. And then she has me relaxed and 747 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,000 she can still hear it crackling. So she places it really 748 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:34,800 accurately. But the dosage, like how do you 749 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:35,520 know? You don't know. 750 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,800 You just have to kind of figure it out. 751 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,120 And so that's like, if anyone has it, I would just say you 752 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,360 have to be super patient. You're going to have times where 753 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,560 you're super frustrated, you're going to have setbacks, you're 754 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,200 going to get on A roll and then something else is going to throw 755 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,760 you off. But you just got to keep going 756 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,080 because it's just you're constantly gathering information 757 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,760 about yourself and how your body reacts. 758 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,480 Like, I never would have thought a year ago even that 759 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,920 commentating would affect me. And then, you know, I was in an 760 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:05,480 airport and could barely stand up. 761 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,240 And I was like, what the hell is wrong with me? 762 00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,200 Like, I fell into this guy's crotch. 763 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,720 It was so embarrassing. And I was just like, I'm so 764 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,480 sorry. Like, I swear I'm stone cold 765 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,320 sober, you know? And that was like when I started 766 00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,640 to put together like, wow, the days after I call races, I am 767 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,520 really sloppy on my feet, you know? 768 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:27,120 So it's just you're just constantly learning. 769 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,760 So fun Side Story not to freak you out. 770 00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:31,680 The patient, the individual I got to work with. 771 00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,440 I had to get called into court because she got pulled over 772 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,400 because she was having a pretty bad episode and so they thought 773 00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,720 she was intoxicated. She obviously failed the 774 00:36:40,720 --> 00:36:44,160 obviously she her breath laser test was completely negative but 775 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,760 she failed all the tests I had to come in and and my first 776 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,360 experience in a courtroom it's not even about me I'm afraid 777 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,360 like oh just tell you something wrong was testifying going yes. 778 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,120 She has runners to Tony I am her treating physical therapist. 779 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,200 This is a really thing. She's not drinking. 780 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,240 She's not like this is not a thing and they're trying like 781 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,120 it's it's very hard for people to understand. 782 00:37:04,240 --> 00:37:05,840 Yeah. If you saw this video that my 783 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,080 husband took of me, it you would think I was drunk. 784 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,880 Like the way I'm walking around. And no, it's like 8:30 in the 785 00:37:12,880 --> 00:37:14,400 morning. I'm like, trust me. 786 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,920 I'm totally, you know what I mean? 787 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,200 Even. Yeah. 788 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,120 And it and it's it's really hard to describe to people how 789 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,160 debilitating it can be. And it's and it's and people 790 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:26,360 don't understand it. And that's fine. 791 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,400 I remember when I first was told that I had it. 792 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,040 I couldn't even remember when it was called. 793 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,400 Like I couldn't stop crying. And and he was like, trust me, 794 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,560 you can work through this. Like we just need to be really 795 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,720 careful right now. We need this to calm down. 796 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,840 And I wasn't hearing anything. He was saying after, you know, I 797 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,000 don't know if you'll be able to run again. 798 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,520 I didn't hear anything. And then we're in the car 799 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:48,640 driving home and I can't even remember what it's called. 800 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,280 And I remember I was Googling runners dystopia. 801 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,360 So I was like, what the hell is this? 802 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:54,560 I don't even know. Do you find anything? 803 00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:55,680 On that is. That OK, yes. 804 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,920 And you're like, it is, which is so funny. 805 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,360 And then Adam was like, no, no, no dystonia. 806 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,080 You know, it's actually funny. I've seen articles written about 807 00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:09,200 me where they say dystopia, but it's it's just it's really, I 808 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,160 don't know that it's crazy rare. I just think that we we don't 809 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:13,840 know what it is. And I think most people go, 810 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,240 something's wrong with me and they just move on, right. 811 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,200 And. They stop running or they give 812 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:22,240 up or it's like no, like when in fact like as you found staying 813 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,760 moving in the optimal mount is probably one of the best things 814 00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:25,680 for you. It's like how you. 815 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,240 Yeah. Yeah. 816 00:38:27,240 --> 00:38:30,960 So I got to be the the, the research geek here. 817 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,840 Since you said you love data, have you ever considered 818 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:34,640 publishing? I don't. 819 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:35,920 I know it's not. You're not supposed to publish 820 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,800 case studies on yourself, but have you ever considered that? 821 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,920 Because getting that information out there would be awesome, 822 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,880 because like even if you want. To write it? 823 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,600 Sure. I'm not going to write it. 824 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:49,920 Yeah, that's fair. I. 825 00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,000 Mean. I'm not judging you at all about 826 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,120 that. Remember I had a co-author? 827 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:55,800 Oh yeah, I. Yeah. 828 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,040 It is interesting because there's not a lot of information 829 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,880 out there and I've actually just been in touch with someone who I 830 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,480 raced against in high school where her symptoms are so 831 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,840 similar to mine, so similar. And she also had a bit bad fall, 832 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,320 but it was she was also catching her toe before the fall. 833 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:17,320 And she, you know, it's like I think that there is there's, I 834 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,400 think that this is more common than we know and but there's 835 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,040 just no information out there. So it's like it's just tough. 836 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,720 Yeah, yeah. I think I'm not judging you on 837 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,600 on the writing part at all. Yes, sorry Andrew, I'm I'm 838 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,360 finishing up my dissertation for my PhD right now and I don't 839 00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:33,920 know how. I still have hair because I 840 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,160 like. Feel like I'm gonna yank it out? 841 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,520 It's like, it's like, right, Like, and you've written a book. 842 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,280 So even with even with a co-author, it's like, Oh my God. 843 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:43,560 I mean, it would never would have happened without Mary. 844 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,080 Just real quick to praise Mary Palan. 845 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,120 I mean the woman's a St. and the the best. 846 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,840 The crazy thing is like, I would read something and then I would 847 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,480 correct it all. I'd say I would never say this. 848 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,280 I would never do that. And she never took anything 849 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,720 personally and she always like revamped it into the way I 850 00:39:57,720 --> 00:40:02,080 wanted. But she did the hard stuff and I 851 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,760 just appreciate her because she ended up nailing my voice and 852 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,640 but without her there'd be no book. 853 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,440 I mean, there just wouldn't be. It was an. 854 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:09,120 Odd. Yeah, right. 855 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,560 It can suck. Sorry, I'm just complaining. 856 00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,160 You're. In it deep right now, yeah. 857 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,400 One thing that I wanted to mention about Runner's Dystonia 858 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:24,840 for our listeners is Runner's dystonia falls into a category 859 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:29,000 of other types of dystonia that are very movement or task 860 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,600 specific. And it actually tends to happen 861 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,040 to people who are very highly skilled, who are professional at 862 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,960 a certain thing. So someone who plays a violin or 863 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:43,640 a piano player or somebody who, well, you know, back before 864 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,840 computers, a writer, they might find that like they literally 865 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,280 can't write with a pen anymore because their hand won't do that 866 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,240 specific movement. So Runner's dystonia is just one 867 00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,960 specific type of that. And again, there's so much that 868 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:02,600 is not known about this type of dystonia. 869 00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,280 Why does it tend to happen to people who were at the top level 870 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,200 of their sport, or or who playing a violin is their 871 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,480 profession, or who writing is part of their profession? 872 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,480 But it does tend to affect people who do that certain 873 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:23,240 movement all the time. So people who might be 874 00:41:23,240 --> 00:41:26,960 listening, who maybe don't have runners dystonia, but maybe like 875 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,440 they're a professional piano player and all of a sudden, like 876 00:41:30,720 --> 00:41:34,320 they're playing just isn't the same, Know that this falls into 877 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:37,680 the same category. And what you need to do is see a 878 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:42,080 neurologist, you know, hopefully a movement specialist, but at a 879 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:45,240 minimum a neurologist. And I would just like to add 880 00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:47,800 that you didn't do anything wrong. 881 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,480 I, you know, when I was diagnosed, I have dealt with a 882 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,520 lot of stress in my life. And I was like, well, maybe I 883 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:54,160 have. This is on me. 884 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:55,840 Like, I haven't really dealt with some of the things that 885 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,840 have happened to me. And I have loved my doctors. 886 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,840 They've been so clear that, like, you didn't do this to 887 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,320 yourself. A lot of runners have have asked 888 00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:05,640 me like, well, what did you do wrong? 889 00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,440 Like, do you think it was doing this or do you think it was 890 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,680 doing that? And it used to hurt my feelings. 891 00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:11,640 And now I'm just like, I'm like, have a shield. 892 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:13,720 It can't penetrate me anymore because I know I didn't do 893 00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:16,440 anything wrong. But so don't feel like, like 894 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:18,640 that would just be one thing. I would say like you didn't do 895 00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:20,320 anything wrong. You just got really unlucky. 896 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,720 And we don't know why you got unlucky, but you didn't do this 897 00:42:23,720 --> 00:42:25,320 to yourself. I know athletes that ran through 898 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,680 way more injuries than I did, that ran way more miles, and I 899 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,480 did that are totally fine. And so I didn't do this to 900 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,800 myself and I think I had to kind of learn that. 901 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,040 But I think, you know, people get fearful because they don't 902 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:38,280 want to get it, which I totally get. 903 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:41,440 I wouldn't wish this on anyone. But if you are struggling like 904 00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:46,120 you didn't do it to yourself, it like it's just sucks but you 905 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,800 didn't do anything wrong. It's kind of like life sometimes 906 00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:50,760 these are the cards you're dealt. 907 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,240 But I think to encourage people to come to come and get help for 908 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:56,440 it. The more people recognize that, 909 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,360 hey, something's going on, I need to get help. 910 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,680 The more people come in, talk to neurologists, get treated, the 911 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,600 more data points we have the more we learn, just like you're 912 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,560 learning as well, and the better we can learn about this. 913 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,640 So please if you're if you're experiencing this, don't feel 914 00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:11,760 like you have to experience it alone. 915 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,160 Get help because that helps not only yourself, it helps others. 916 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,240 Because we learned. And the more we learn, the 917 00:43:17,240 --> 00:43:20,080 better we can. We can recognize this and be 918 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,880 able to help people out. So it only helps others. 919 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:25,040 But yeah, there's it's people want control. 920 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:26,800 Like what did I do? What is that one thing I can 921 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,000 really sorry. There's nothing we have no idea 922 00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:32,240 like. Yeah, yeah. 923 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,120 Which is part of the frustration of it. 924 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,080 But it's all, you know it. Yeah, I just, I had a lot of 925 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,520 people say, well, I think that you're, you know, you ran 926 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,400 through so many injuries or you ran so many miles. 927 00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,840 I think this is a good, like, lesson for other people. 928 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,720 And I was kind of like F you. That's the right response. 929 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,200 Yeah, yeah. It's that response. 930 00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:57,560 And I don't think people understand how little we really 931 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,080 understand about the nervous system like we are like and all 932 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:02,680 kudos to our neurologists and the people, all the researchers 933 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:05,040 doing this stuff. That's the final frontier. 934 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,040 And we have barely scratched the surface. 935 00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:10,560 I don't think people understand how little we truly know about 936 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,200 how that thing works. So it's it's just beginning. 937 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:17,120 I think it's so common for people when you have a problem 938 00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:19,200 or or an injury you want to know why. 939 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,240 So either you can avoid getting it again, or you can avoid 940 00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:27,360 getting what your friend got so but it when you're asking 941 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,040 somebody who's going through something, you certainly don't 942 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,600 want to put more. Make them feel like it's their 943 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:34,680 fault, when often it is not their fault. 944 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,720 So just advice for listeners if you're. 945 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,520 A little empathy. Little empathy goes along. 946 00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,000 Yeah, it. Goes a long way, yeah, it goes a 947 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,640 long way. So we've talked. 948 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:47,880 This has been such a great conversation. 949 00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,040 I want to talk a little bit about your book too. 950 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,040 So first of all, your book covers so many important topics. 951 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:55,960 Matt and I both really enjoyed reading it. 952 00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,800 It covers your journey from a youth runner to professional and 953 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:02,360 Olympian. But it also covers a lot of the 954 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,800 dark side of professional sport that we don't talk about, 955 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,200 including disordered eating, doping, psychological and sexual 956 00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:12,920 abuse. So I'm sure it was hard to 957 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,640 decide to write this book. So what? 958 00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,120 What made-up your mind? And did you ever have moments of 959 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,880 doubt when you question, where you question the repercussions 960 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:25,800 of telling the truth? Yes, the whole time. 961 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,600 The whole time I think I was frustrated that I felt like my 962 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:36,840 story was my story was constantly being told by other 963 00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,880 people who had not lived it, who didn't know me. 964 00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,640 Often times people were writing about me who I had never even 965 00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:48,480 met and it was just frustrating and basically I was going 966 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:53,760 through hearings with different bodies and it was like don't say 967 00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,120 anything don't get involved just let it go. 968 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,320 Like we don't want to affect the investigation or this or that. 969 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,960 And I thought someday I'm just going to tell it like I'm going 970 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:05,160 to be able to tell my side of the story or I'm going to be 971 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,160 able to tell the real story what actually happened. 972 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:12,520 So it so I I think I'm trying to think we I signed the book deal 973 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,680 in 2019 was when in 2019 I started talking to potential 974 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,280 co-authors. I wanted to find out, like, who 975 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:18,760 would be interested? Who thought this? 976 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,720 Was it, like, important to tell? And we signed. 977 00:46:21,720 --> 00:46:24,480 Mary and I signed with Simon and Schuster in 2019, and the book 978 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,160 didn't come out till 2023. So it was a long process. 979 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:31,320 And a lot of times during that process I was having a lot of 980 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,320 anxiety about, do I really want to put this out there? 981 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:36,840 Is this going to cost me a future in the sport that I love 982 00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:38,640 so much? Is this is going to cost me 983 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:43,880 Friendships, relationships? Yeah, I mean, I had a lot of 984 00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:46,360 nervousness. The night before was probably 985 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:48,440 the worst. I thought, I'm blowing up my 986 00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:49,720 life. Like, I have a really good life. 987 00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:53,400 Why am I blowing up my life? But I have to say the morning 988 00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,160 that it came out, I didn't. I was on Good Morning America, 989 00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:58,320 but I had filmed it ahead of time. 990 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,240 I didn't watch it. I went for a run and I felt so 991 00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:05,960 at peace and I just felt like this lightness. 992 00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,400 And I have felt that way ever since of like, I'm not carrying 993 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:11,320 around anybody else's secrets anymore. 994 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,200 I'm not carrying around anyone else's shame anymore. 995 00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,760 And so, even though the process of writing it was hard, and to 996 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,240 be totally frank, I put me back in therapy to deal with stuff I 997 00:47:21,240 --> 00:47:24,400 had never dealt with since its publication. 998 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,960 I have felt so just at peace with it. 999 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,200 I'm so glad I did it, and I I have. 1000 00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,960 I feel like it has helped me just as a human, tremendously, 1001 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,360 to just tell I get to say what happened. 1002 00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,720 I get to share it all and I don't have to carry that around 1003 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:42,840 anymore. It's like no longer something 1004 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,120 that I bear. Sounds like it was a really good 1005 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,400 thing to finally be able to lighten that load. 1006 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,000 But I think what it sounds like is people need to understand 1007 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,920 that the process of unloading that is not easy. 1008 00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,720 It is very stressful, doesn't beyond. 1009 00:47:57,720 --> 00:48:02,040 It doesn't even get close to describing what if it it feels 1010 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:03,640 like. And that is also a continual 1011 00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:05,800 journey as you're still working with their therapist, you're 1012 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,320 still working with yourself to be able to continue to move 1013 00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:12,880 forward. So it's not just a it's so much 1014 00:48:12,880 --> 00:48:16,160 more than a story is what this is what what I'm what I'm 1015 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:18,640 hearing from your voice. So we again we appreciate you 1016 00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:19,800 being willing to talk about this. 1017 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,360 Obviously you put a book out but it's still yeah, yeah is a is a 1018 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:23,760 lot. So we appreciate. 1019 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,720 This, this book healed me in a lot of ways because there were 1020 00:48:26,720 --> 00:48:28,320 things that I just hadn't dealt with. 1021 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:30,960 I could tell you, I could tell the investigators. 1022 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,600 I could tell people just at a very monotone level, things that 1023 00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,800 happened to me. But I hadn't actually truly 1024 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,000 dealt with them, you know? And so in a weird way, this book 1025 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,200 really saved me because I it forced me because I started 1026 00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,040 having anxiety about stuff. I started feeling things I had 1027 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:49,360 never really felt before. I started seeing things from a 1028 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,680 different light. And I don't know that I would 1029 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,520 have ever dealt with some of that stuff. 1030 00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:56,880 I mean, I know I wouldn't have. I was like a world class 1031 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,440 compartmentalizer. And I don't think I ever really, 1032 00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:03,480 truly would have dealt with some of the stuff I had experienced 1033 00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,640 and lived through if it hadn't been for writing the book. 1034 00:49:05,640 --> 00:49:08,920 So writing the book honestly saved me and set me free. 1035 00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:14,520 Well, you telling your story not only helped you heal, but think 1036 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,520 of all the people you helped that got to read your book and 1037 00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:21,440 you know, saw themselves and some of the things that you went 1038 00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:22,840 through. And that's going to give them 1039 00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,640 strength to deal with some issues that they might be going 1040 00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,840 through. But also you testifying and 1041 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,840 helping get Alberto Salazar banned from the sport, You've 1042 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:37,920 saved who knows how many people from his abuse so? 1043 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,400 That's. I'm sure that. 1044 00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:43,240 And, you know, you wrote about that in your book, but the 1045 00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:47,440 process of testifying, and it was how many years between, 1046 00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:51,320 like, the first time you talked to the FBI to when, like, you 1047 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:56,560 were finally done, that's a long time to not know if the person 1048 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:59,840 that you're giving information about is actually even going to 1049 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,520 be punished. Yeah, I mean it was a decade of 1050 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,960 my life of it constantly being in the background and not just 1051 00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:09,400 for me, for my husband as well. And sometimes we would forget 1052 00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,760 about it and then of course it would come to the forefront. 1053 00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:18,200 And you know, I I don't think I really, I I I don't, you know, 1054 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,400 I've been accused of being like a whiner and a complainer. 1055 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,200 So it's like really hard for me to to to say this, but I it 1056 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,360 really affected my career those last 10 years because it was 1057 00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:31,400 just always there and it's hard to describe it to people. 1058 00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:35,760 Like I've had this giant massive cloud of pressure and stress 1059 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,560 that I couldn't really get rid of until it was wrapped up. 1060 00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:43,640 And it wasn't wrapped up until I want to say December 2021 was 1061 00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:45,960 when it was finally done, all the appeals, everything was 1062 00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,040 done. So it just was a long time and 1063 00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,440 it was really difficult. And I but I I don't regret it, 1064 00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,120 you know, I know it was the right decision, but also it was 1065 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,200 so hard. It wasn't easy to testify. 1066 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:03,560 It felt it was just very confusing to have someone that 1067 00:51:03,720 --> 00:51:07,080 at one point you revered as like a father to then have to, you 1068 00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:10,200 know, testify against them and know that your words might end 1069 00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,640 their careers so difficult. It was not an easy decision. 1070 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:17,160 It was not an easy process. And it was honestly one of the 1071 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,920 worst experiences of my life. I mean it really was but I I, 1072 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,400 you know I kind of have this this thing where I have to do 1073 00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,840 what I know is right or I can't live with it even if I'm not 1074 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,960 doing something wrong. If I know I can do something 1075 00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,360 that would better the situation, I have to and I I like that I'm 1076 00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,560 like that it but it, you know. So I knew. 1077 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,160 I knew I had to see it through, but it was it was hard. 1078 00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,440 And I think that's been like the good and the bad of the 1079 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:48,160 feedback, which is that it's been shocking how many women in 1080 00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:50,840 all different plays of life, whether they're runners or not, 1081 00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:53,480 have experienced something or saw themselves in the story. 1082 00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:57,000 And so on the one hand, it's great because they see that 1083 00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,360 they're not alone. But on the other hand, it's been 1084 00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:00,680 honestly very, very heartbreaking just how many 1085 00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,000 women have experienced something similar or some thread in the 1086 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,480 book they had experienced. And yeah, it was really heavy. 1087 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,360 It was so heavy yet that when the book was first released, I 1088 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,920 had to kind of stop taking emails and responses and people 1089 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:16,800 sending stuff to my publisher, 'cause it's just like, I can't 1090 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,600 take on all this trauma right now. 1091 00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,560 I'm really sad that it exists, and I'm glad that you can see 1092 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:24,400 yourself in it. But I actually am not in a place 1093 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,160 where I can take on all this trauma. 1094 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:28,640 Yeah. This is why psychologists like I 1095 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:30,880 have a couple of friends that are psychologists that do like 1096 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,640 trauma care and they have their own psychologist and counselor 1097 00:52:33,640 --> 00:52:36,200 that they have to go see on a weekly basis because of the 1098 00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,960 amount that people take on. And so it's even more 1099 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,240 challenging if you've experienced that and then but I 1100 00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:46,200 I get it like that, that need to do the right thing is you set, I 1101 00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:49,440 mean and no pressure by the way, but you see you kind of set a 1102 00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,720 standard of getting the word out there. 1103 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:54,160 And since that time, even though it's only been a couple years, 1104 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:56,280 there's been a lot of other things that come out because 1105 00:52:56,280 --> 00:52:59,160 people have actually felt proud and strong enough to go you know 1106 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,680 what, I need to stand up. This is not right. 1107 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,640 And a lot of like the NCAA systems, a lot of the pros like 1108 00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,200 all this stuff needs to change. It's not fair at the end of the 1109 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:09,440 athletes. It goes back to my original 1110 00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,200 subjective comment of making things better. 1111 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,800 It's not just, you know, companies can obviously do a 1112 00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:15,920 good job. I recognize there are 1113 00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:19,440 limitations there, but like how they're coached, how we take 1114 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:24,480 care of people, how people are trained to view themselves not 1115 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,920 and and how other people treat them as so important. 1116 00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,800 And it has to start somewhere. It has something, you know, so 1117 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,040 it's like having to go through 10 years where it's a lot I 1118 00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,040 can't even obviously imagine. But you know, you, you were one 1119 00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,120 of those ones who took one of those first big steps, and I 1120 00:53:41,120 --> 00:53:43,120 think there's a lot of people that are going to benefit more 1121 00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,600 than you'll probably ever know. I think it's important for us to 1122 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:52,840 mention the role of safe sport in Salazar's lifetime ban and 1123 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:56,000 the fact that safe sport didn't exist until 2017. 1124 00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,720 So when you were going through the horrible things that you 1125 00:53:59,720 --> 00:54:02,960 were going through, Karen, you didn't have this government. 1126 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:08,200 Well, it's a government created body to report misconduct in the 1127 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,520 sporting world. So Safe sports website says that 1128 00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:16,400 since they were started in 2017 they have received over 7000 1129 00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:21,040 abuse and misconduct reports and that is incredibly sad. 1130 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:26,440 But also, at least, safe sport exists to investigate, and they 1131 00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:31,520 have the power to ban people or punish people for what they have 1132 00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,480 done. So before safe sport existed, I 1133 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,360 mean, were there even any known steps for you to report what had 1134 00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,600 happened and the people you would have reported it to were, 1135 00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,400 you know, your coach? Like who? 1136 00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:50,280 Who else would you have gone to? There was no system in place at 1137 00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,040 all. And, you know, I lived in this 1138 00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:56,320 very insular world and it was like everybody that I would have 1139 00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:59,800 talked to, It all goes to the same couple people that, you 1140 00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:01,840 know, make the decision that my coach has a job. 1141 00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:04,960 So it's basically me versus him. That's why I couldn't even 1142 00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,840 accept that it had happened. I had to really tell myself this 1143 00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,680 story. That's just an accident. 1144 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,680 And then take other steps to protect myself by forcing my 1145 00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:17,720 husband to travel with me. You know, like I because it just 1146 00:55:17,720 --> 00:55:21,160 couldn't be true because there's there's no, there's no one to 1147 00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:25,240 tell and there's no situation which I get to keep running in 1148 00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:29,200 this group or with this brand if I tell. 1149 00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:34,680 So you know, safe Spark gets safe, spark gets a lot of Flack 1150 00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,160 because they take forever with cases. 1151 00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:44,400 They are backlogged. And I I just think just what you 1152 00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,800 said, people don't understand how big this problem is. 1153 00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,760 And I think when they created safe sport in like the wake of 1154 00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,200 of Larry Nasser and all that, it was like, OK, well, we're going 1155 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,120 to create this and then people will be able to go there. 1156 00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,440 And instead, we didn't understand the floodgate that it 1157 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,680 would be so safe sport gets out. Like I think there was just an 1158 00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:04,280 article recently about safe sport. 1159 00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,320 And should they still be receiving money from the 1160 00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:08,120 government? And I think they should. 1161 00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:09,680 And I think they should be getting more money so they can 1162 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:11,880 hire more people and have more investigators because this 1163 00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,240 problem is so much bigger than anyone wants to admit. 1164 00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:17,840 And without safe Sport, what do we have? 1165 00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:19,400 We don't. We don't have anything else. 1166 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,840 So I guess so it sounds like one of the, the easy thing is to say 1167 00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:25,480 hey, safes were obviously need more support and money. 1168 00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,240 What, what other steps do you think need to be taken next to 1169 00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:31,240 continue to improve this? Because I would, I would argue 1170 00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:34,040 and I think you said you said something similar where honestly 1171 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,480 it just opened the floodgates. The fact that this hasn't been 1172 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,600 addressed is why they're getting so many things because guess 1173 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:42,720 what, when you don't address this for the entire existence of 1174 00:56:42,720 --> 00:56:46,400 athletics, when you finally do, of course it's going to unload. 1175 00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,880 So what do you think outside of continuing to fund this and 1176 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,520 probably expand it, what do you think the next steps are to 1177 00:56:52,520 --> 00:56:54,280 continue to improve this process? 1178 00:56:54,680 --> 00:56:57,920 Well, I think that there's there every governing body, whether 1179 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:00,360 it's USATF or something with swimming or gymnastics, They 1180 00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:02,880 should also have an independent body that is checking in with 1181 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:06,760 athletes, which is 100% anonymous and their coaches 1182 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,280 can't find out. Because, you know, I just think 1183 00:57:09,280 --> 00:57:11,440 back to my situation where who am I going to tell? 1184 00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,760 There's there's literally nowhere for me to go where I 1185 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:16,280 don't suffer A consequence from it. 1186 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:20,600 And so even though we have safe sport, it's not perfect and 1187 00:57:20,600 --> 00:57:22,440 people are afraid to go there too. 1188 00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:25,800 So there needs to be more independent parties checking in 1189 00:57:25,800 --> 00:57:28,880 on athletes, making sure they're OK, that are not tied to brands, 1190 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,200 that are not tied to sponsors, that are not tied to anything. 1191 00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,400 You know, I I think that's part of the problem too, is that a 1192 00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,160 lot of athletes feel like where do I go? 1193 00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,880 Even if I go to my governing body, they're sponsored by XYZI. 1194 00:57:44,000 --> 00:57:47,880 You know, I I just think that we need reform in the whole idea. 1195 00:57:47,880 --> 00:57:50,160 And also we need to really reform the way we think about 1196 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:52,680 coaches and who should be able to be a coach. 1197 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:57,280 And I think when you're coaching elite athletes, it's not too 1198 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,720 much to ask that you go through certification, which now we do 1199 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:03,320 have their safe sport certification. 1200 00:58:03,320 --> 00:58:05,480 A lot of coaches bulk at it. They don't want to do it. 1201 00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:07,480 I've been doing this forever. I don't need this. 1202 00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:09,480 Yeah, you do. You actually do. 1203 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,120 And if you're a coach, you should care, you know, and you 1204 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,680 should go through these certification processes. 1205 00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,640 But I think again, there just needs to be more checking in on 1206 00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:20,520 athletes, cause a lot of athletes find themselves in 1207 00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:22,600 these positions and they don't know what to do and they don't 1208 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:23,960 know who to talk to and they don't know who to. 1209 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:25,240 Trust. Yeah. 1210 00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,880 And there's probably a lot of athletes who have never heard of 1211 00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:31,080 safe sport who if something happened to them, they would 1212 00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:35,480 have no idea what to do. It should be part of the emails 1213 00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:38,640 you get from your governing body every year when you renew your 1214 00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,720 license. Or they could do such a better 1215 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,000 job of publicizing what they do and the fact that reporting is 1216 00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:50,960 anonymous and it's so that people know, OK, if this has 1217 00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,760 happened to me, I have this pathway to report it that 1218 00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:58,560 hopefully isn't going to affect my career as an athlete. 1219 00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:01,920 Yeah, I mean, I think that is a fear from athletes. 1220 00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:05,000 You know, they they are afraid that if they say something, it 1221 00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:08,240 will affect their career. And so that's why it's important 1222 00:59:08,240 --> 00:59:11,880 to see these things through. And even, you know, my my 1223 00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,560 childhood hero is Lynn Jennings and she got her coach band for 1224 00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:19,160 life all these years later and she didn't have to do that. 1225 00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:22,920 The guy's not even around, really, But it takes people like 1226 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,640 her standing up and doing what's right to set the standard for 1227 00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,480 the next generation. I would definitely say you've 1228 00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,520 done an amazing job of setting that standard for all the pain 1229 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:33,760 and suffering that you went through. 1230 00:59:33,760 --> 00:59:37,800 Like just think about the people that the their futures getting 1231 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:39,440 the sport. Like I think about my daughter 1232 00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:43,280 and you know I'm not I whatever sport she wants to go into if 1233 00:59:43,280 --> 00:59:46,440 she wants to it's it's up to her and I'll we'll support her 1234 00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,400 through that. But you made a change with that 1235 00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:52,320 so that we can, as parents, right, can be more comfortable 1236 00:59:52,320 --> 00:59:55,560 and OK, we know we still have to be vigilant, but we know it's at 1237 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,440 least a little safer And the more people speak up, it just 1238 00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,400 it's the same thing with talking about, you know, anything like 1239 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,080 the more you speak up about this, more information there is, 1240 01:00:04,520 --> 01:00:06,640 the more we know, the better it gets. 1241 01:00:07,160 --> 01:00:10,960 But the hardest part? Is the speaking up and it's 1242 01:00:10,960 --> 01:00:14,120 something I I won't fully understand because AI haven't 1243 01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,080 been in that situation. But also because I was never a 1244 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:19,160 parathlete so I can't understand to go Oh my gosh this might 1245 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:21,800 impact my career. So I it's very easy for me to 1246 01:00:21,800 --> 01:00:23,400 say that to go Oh yeah, you should do this. 1247 01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,800 But it's another it's a very different level to be in that 1248 01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,040 situation. So I'm trying to figure out how 1249 01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,280 to, how to verbalize that. Not not being in that situation, 1250 01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,560 just trying to be supportive. OK, I appreciate it. 1251 01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:38,200 I don't have a daughter, but I, you know, I didn't originally 1252 01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,000 want to talk to Safe Sport. I didn't want to go down that 1253 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:46,480 road with them, but it really was thinking about my nieces and 1254 01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:48,840 my son's friends. That's what motivated me to do 1255 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:50,440 it. So yeah, you got to think 1256 01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,160 outside yourself. So another thing that you talked 1257 01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,640 about quite a bit in your book, which I think is a really 1258 01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,000 important topic that is starting to get more traction. 1259 01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:02,120 But there's it feels like we're still at the beginning of all of 1260 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,440 this. But you talked about how, you 1261 01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,560 know, throughout your career, female athletes just don't 1262 01:01:07,560 --> 01:01:11,160 receive the support they need for their normal female health 1263 01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,640 concerns, whether it be supporting a middle or high 1264 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:17,600 school runner with the changes associated with puberty or 1265 01:01:17,600 --> 01:01:20,400 supporting a pro runner during and after her pregnancy. 1266 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:24,920 So, I mean, it's such a huge topic, but what do you think 1267 01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:30,440 that coaches, athletes, parents could do better to help female 1268 01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,960 athletes throughout their lifespan to just better 1269 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,680 understand how their bodies work and change as they get older? 1270 01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:43,480 I mean, I remember when I was in middle and high school, guy had 1271 01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:46,600 a teammate who she was and this is so common, right? 1272 01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:50,080 Like someone who's super fast when they're like in middle 1273 01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:53,880 school, a female runner, you know, pre puberty. 1274 01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:57,320 And then as soon as she gets her period, like her body changes 1275 01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:02,520 and she's, you know, out the back and you know, it's all she, 1276 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,320 you know, there was nothing for to help her. 1277 01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:09,000 She just, you know, used to be really good and now she wasn't 1278 01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,760 and she didn't go to, you know, she didn't run in college. 1279 01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,360 Nobody kind of helped her through that period and none of 1280 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,040 our coaches had anything to say about that. 1281 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:24,640 But I think that helping teenage girl athletes just understand 1282 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:29,360 that what's happening is normal. And even though, yes, they might 1283 01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,520 be slower now, that doesn't mean that they're going to be slower 1284 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:34,880 forever. I just think it should be part 1285 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:39,440 of the educational and coaching process, just like so many other 1286 01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:42,920 things that we teach athletes. Do you have any thoughts about 1287 01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:47,080 how we could improve that for girl athletes and what that 1288 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,120 would look like? I totally agree. 1289 01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,240 It should be a part of everything. 1290 01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,800 I I had a wonderful, supportive mom and everything, but like, no 1291 01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,800 one talked to me about that. When I was going through it, I 1292 01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:01,080 was just like, I failed. I I got bigger and now I suck. 1293 01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,960 And now I'm not good anymore. And I wish there had been 1294 01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,400 someone that said no, actually, your body's doing exactly what 1295 01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,320 it's supposed to do. Give it two or three years. 1296 01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:13,880 Talent doesn't go away. Trust me that you need this new 1297 01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:15,480 body. This new body is going to take 1298 01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:16,720 you to the places that you dream about. 1299 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:18,640 This little body actually can't do it. 1300 01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,240 It can't. It physically can't, but the new 1301 01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,720 body can. And but I just didn't have 1302 01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:27,160 anyone saying that to me. And I think it's having these 1303 01:03:27,160 --> 01:03:29,240 conversations. I think in the, you know, Lauren 1304 01:03:29,240 --> 01:03:31,680 Fleshman talked about it in her book that came out last year as 1305 01:03:31,680 --> 01:03:34,240 well and normalizing these conversations. 1306 01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:41,080 And I think it it does fall on women who have made it as 1307 01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:44,440 professionals to speak openly about it and to speak to high 1308 01:03:44,440 --> 01:03:48,240 school kids and to say like, this is totally normal and it's 1309 01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,400 OK and you're not doing anything wrong. 1310 01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:53,840 And this actually is going to get you to where you want to be 1311 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:57,240 in life. And I think, I do think that 1312 01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:00,280 coaches should have this understanding. 1313 01:04:00,280 --> 01:04:02,480 I do think it can be tricky. If you have a male coach and 1314 01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:03,960 you're a teenager, you probably don't. 1315 01:04:04,040 --> 01:04:05,760 You might not feel comfortable talking to your coach, but 1316 01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:07,480 having your period and what that means. 1317 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:10,440 But that's why I think there just needs to be more 1318 01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:13,560 communication overall, just in the running community. 1319 01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,920 And I I do feel like a lot of the elites could leave that 1320 01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,160 conversation for the youth so that they grow up knowing 1321 01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,040 getting your periods normal, it actually is good for you. 1322 01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,160 It makes you healthy. It gives you a body that can 1323 01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:28,160 handle the training that you'll someday be able to do. 1324 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,400 And you haven't failed because you got your period. 1325 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,920 You're actually it's exactly what's supposed to happen. 1326 01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,120 Like it's literally a sign of you being healthy and if you 1327 01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:40,160 have it and then suddenly it gets abnormal or you stop having 1328 01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,280 it, that's something that needs to get addressed. 1329 01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:45,640 Like don't hide that. So but yeah, I think we need to 1330 01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,120 keep talking about this, says the, I mean, so I'm growing up 1331 01:04:48,120 --> 01:04:50,560 with the all female household, even our cat and my cat is 1332 01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:52,200 female. So I've got all estrogen here. 1333 01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,840 So I I get it. But so it's like, yeah, 1334 01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,440 normalizing. Normalizing the conversations, 1335 01:04:57,480 --> 01:04:59,120 like not being embarrassed about it. 1336 01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:02,680 Like, look, look, if your daughter decides to run, she's 1337 01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:04,720 going to get her period. She's going to be frustrated 1338 01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:06,120 with her body for a couple years. 1339 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,000 And what if she knew that that was OK? 1340 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,200 What if she knew? You know what? 1341 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:13,680 This happens to everybody. It happened to the best runners 1342 01:05:13,680 --> 01:05:15,920 that ever lived. And it's just a frustrating 1343 01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,040 part. But the gain that I get from 1344 01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:20,920 once I get through this is like, crazy, right? 1345 01:05:20,920 --> 01:05:24,000 And what if we, what if it was just normal to be a for her to 1346 01:05:24,000 --> 01:05:26,600 be able to say, dad, I'm so frustrated and you're like, I 1347 01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:29,000 know, I know, but trust me, it's going to be, you know what I 1348 01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,680 mean? Like instead of being like I 1349 01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,000 suck, I ate too much. I got my period. 1350 01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:37,600 No, that's not it. It's like, yes, I recognize you. 1351 01:05:37,640 --> 01:05:39,360 You. Your period started the the 1352 01:05:39,360 --> 01:05:41,800 morning of your race. I, I I understand. 1353 01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:44,760 This must be really frustrating in the long run. 1354 01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:46,760 No pun intended. This is good for you. 1355 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:48,720 Yes. Today's probably gonna suck, 1356 01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,320 right? That's just how it goes. 1357 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:51,600 Sorry. This is biology. 1358 01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:54,520 For you right and and you're allowed to be annoyed and you're 1359 01:05:54,520 --> 01:05:56,240 allowed to be like. This sucks because. 1360 01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:58,520 You know what it does it. Does. 1361 01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:03,200 But keep going. Don't give up because you're 1362 01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,720 going to be all right, you know. And I think the the more we 1363 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,640 educate girls and their parents and their coaches about this, 1364 01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,040 the more information there is out there. 1365 01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:17,160 It keeps, you know, all of the misinformation from spreading. 1366 01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:21,560 Like I know when I was a runner, if you didn't get your period it 1367 01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:24,160 meant that you were training enough and you were really fit. 1368 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:27,040 You were fit. And if it comes back, it means 1369 01:06:27,040 --> 01:06:29,760 that you're eating too much, you're not fit, you're gaining 1370 01:06:29,760 --> 01:06:31,560 weight. Like that's all bullshit. 1371 01:06:31,880 --> 01:06:37,920 And until a lot of people talk about that and that information 1372 01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:41,520 gets down to teenage girls, So whether that's on TikTok or 1373 01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:46,960 whatever, we need teenagers to understand that that's not true. 1374 01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:52,280 It's not good for your period to go away or it's not good to not 1375 01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:54,160 have it come until you're in your 20s. 1376 01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,960 And the more that it's talked about, the less likely it is 1377 01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:03,120 that the incorrect information will be the only information 1378 01:07:03,120 --> 01:07:07,520 that those athletes getting. Yeah, I think if running's being 1379 01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:11,800 honest, we do have a cultural problem with this specifically, 1380 01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:15,920 and we can pull out college coaches or pro coaches, but it 1381 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:19,600 doesn't solve the problem, which is that from the very beginning, 1382 01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:21,880 you know, I had a eating issue in college. 1383 01:07:21,880 --> 01:07:24,280 I didn't learn it in college. I learned it way earlier. 1384 01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:27,200 And it was me being in a vulnerable position where I 1385 01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:30,920 started, you know, I started doing those things that I had 1386 01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:34,640 learned about a lot earlier. So I think we need to be really 1387 01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:37,800 open that, yeah, we can still pull out bad characters, don't 1388 01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:39,520 get me wrong. But that doesn't actually solve 1389 01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:42,680 the problem because the seeds are planted so young. 1390 01:07:43,080 --> 01:07:46,880 And I I think until we have a real reckoning and we really 1391 01:07:46,880 --> 01:07:49,560 start talking about this to parents and to kids at a young 1392 01:07:49,560 --> 01:07:52,000 age, it's going to be a constant. 1393 01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:54,880 We're going to constantly hear this story because we have a 1394 01:07:54,880 --> 01:07:59,760 problem in our sport and it we just do and and we can't solve 1395 01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,880 it by saying, well, that person, you know, sure Alberto, he hurt 1396 01:08:03,880 --> 01:08:08,440 people, but that didn't cure this problem that our sport has, 1397 01:08:08,440 --> 01:08:10,240 right? It starts so much younger and 1398 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:13,320 earlier and if we really want to change it, that's what we have 1399 01:08:13,320 --> 01:08:15,400 to do. We have to go so much earlier 1400 01:08:15,400 --> 01:08:19,880 and talk to girls so much earlier so that, yeah, it's just 1401 01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:21,720 otherwise we're going to keep having these problems. 1402 01:08:22,040 --> 01:08:24,560 Absolutely. Well, it sounds like it's, it's 1403 01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:29,359 kind of a classic, not to to blame certain things, but we as 1404 01:08:29,359 --> 01:08:31,399 a society tend to be very reactive, right? 1405 01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:33,640 It's like, oh, it happened. Now we're going to do this. 1406 01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:36,080 Whereas what we really need to focus on is prevention. 1407 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:38,800 Like we need to start from day one like this. 1408 01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:40,439 This is just part of the conversation. 1409 01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:43,560 We need to normalize talking about body functions. 1410 01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:45,120 We need to talk about what is normal. 1411 01:08:45,120 --> 01:08:47,760 We need to be educating youth, parents, coaches and everybody 1412 01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:51,840 to know this is normal. We need to acknowledge it too. 1413 01:08:51,840 --> 01:08:55,600 Yeah, our sport has a challenge with a lot of disordered eating, 1414 01:08:55,600 --> 01:08:58,680 abuse, things like that. Body dysmorphia is huge, not 1415 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:00,720 just within women, also within men. 1416 01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:03,399 And men don't even say it all often until it's not too until 1417 01:09:03,399 --> 01:09:06,240 it's too late does do people actually figure that out? 1418 01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:10,160 So it's it's just coming to terms with this and being open 1419 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:11,800 and going. We need to have these 1420 01:09:11,800 --> 01:09:14,040 conversations. Even if it's uncomfortable, it 1421 01:09:14,040 --> 01:09:16,560 doesn't matter. It's like your your, like, minor 1422 01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,479 discomfort because you don't want to talk about periods or 1423 01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:20,279 you don't want to admit that that, you know the sport has a 1424 01:09:20,439 --> 01:09:23,200 big problem with eating disorders, that those feelings 1425 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,120 like, don't matter if it means protecting the next generation 1426 01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:30,160 or actually you come recognize that you have a problem with it 1427 01:09:30,160 --> 01:09:31,399 and you don't. The reason that that's why it 1428 01:09:31,399 --> 01:09:34,359 makes you uncomfortable is go for things that make you 1429 01:09:34,359 --> 01:09:36,680 uncomfortable because it probably means there's something 1430 01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:37,960 there that needs to be addressed. 1431 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:41,720 And this is a a perfect, perfect example, because the only thing 1432 01:09:41,720 --> 01:09:44,520 it's going to do is if we talk about this, people are going to 1433 01:09:44,520 --> 01:09:47,160 be faster, they're going to be better, they're going to be 1434 01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,520 healthier. There is no evidence, there's no 1435 01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:52,800 evidence That said any of these old ways of thinking have 1436 01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,280 actually improved performance. It's actually just been nothing 1437 01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,600 but destructive. And it's like, it's bad that we 1438 01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:01,320 actually now have real like, enough research on to go, Oh 1439 01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:02,520 yeah, maybe we should stop doing this. 1440 01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:05,520 Like, yes, Like if it's that much research like this should 1441 01:10:05,520 --> 01:10:06,400 have been addressed a while. Ago. 1442 01:10:06,400 --> 01:10:10,120 And it comes to, you know, a lot of things come down to simple 1443 01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:13,640 like culture changes. Like, how many, probably 1444 01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:17,800 thousands of times have we all heard somebody say she looks 1445 01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,680 really fit? You can't look at somebody and 1446 01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:23,400 tell how fit they are. And usually when you say she 1447 01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,200 looks really fit, all you're talking about is her body fat 1448 01:10:26,200 --> 01:10:30,200 percentage. So not, you know, catching 1449 01:10:30,200 --> 01:10:33,680 yourself, like not saying that, not saying it in front of 1450 01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,160 teenagers who are very impressionable, but also just 1451 01:10:37,400 --> 01:10:40,440 not saying it at all. We can't tell who's fit by how 1452 01:10:40,480 --> 01:10:42,840 they look. We can tell they're fit by lots 1453 01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:46,480 of different measures, but how somebody looks is not a good 1454 01:10:46,480 --> 01:10:49,120 predictor of what how they're going to perform. 1455 01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:54,880 So let's stop saying then. Yeah, I think my mom was the 1456 01:10:54,880 --> 01:10:58,360 queen of if I just lose 5 more pounds, I'll I'll look good. 1457 01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:00,320 And by the way, she always looked good. 1458 01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:02,400 Always. My mom is super fit, super 1459 01:11:02,400 --> 01:11:06,760 muscular, but like I you know, I and I never thought that really 1460 01:11:06,760 --> 01:11:09,480 affected me till I got older and I thought, well maybe maybe that 1461 01:11:09,480 --> 01:11:12,760 did affect me a little bit. Like her insecurity and always 1462 01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:15,360 feeling like she needed to lose 5 lbs to be worthy. 1463 01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:17,720 I think it did rub off on me a little bit. 1464 01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:19,680 And so I have been really conscious. 1465 01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:23,160 I've caught myself saying stupid stuff in front of my son. 1466 01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,600 Even, you know, where I'm like, oh, I feel so fat. 1467 01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:28,920 Or, you know, we all make these comments and then I'm like, 1468 01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,960 really? But we're so conditioned to say 1469 01:11:31,960 --> 01:11:33,480 these things and feel these things. 1470 01:11:33,480 --> 01:11:36,080 So even as someone who's really conscious about it and tries 1471 01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,960 really hard, I still slip up. But I think that's part of it is 1472 01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:40,880 us all being really conscious of the way we talk about other 1473 01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:44,560 people and the way that we talk about ourselves, cause the kids 1474 01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,440 are listening. They hear everything. 1475 01:11:46,480 --> 01:11:49,000 They do hear everything and unfortunately they, you know, 1476 01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:51,760 it's they the more they hear it, the more likely they are to 1477 01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:53,240 model things and stuff like that. 1478 01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:56,360 But that's why. Like, yes, we can have traumas, 1479 01:11:56,360 --> 01:11:58,840 but it is our responsibility to make sure the trauma startup 1480 01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:02,440 stops with our generation and go no more. 1481 01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:04,200 You know, I know we dealt with this. 1482 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:08,000 I acknowledge this, this is painful, but this stops with us 1483 01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:10,040 and we're going to make this better for the next generation. 1484 01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,520 So which is a lot easier said than done. 1485 01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:16,080 But this was awesome. Cara, thank you so much for 1486 01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:19,160 coming on. I really encourage everyone to 1487 01:12:19,160 --> 01:12:21,480 get a copy of your book again, which comes out. 1488 01:12:21,640 --> 01:12:23,080 You said this. It was March. 1489 01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,200 March 20. 6th, 6th, Yeah. OK, got it. 1490 01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:29,440 It was a phenomenal book. I'm going to tell the story that 1491 01:12:29,440 --> 01:12:33,600 I told you two earlier is that the book came to us last week 1492 01:12:33,600 --> 01:12:35,040 and I was, like, really excited to read it. 1493 01:12:35,040 --> 01:12:36,600 And then it disappeared. I couldn't find it because my 1494 01:12:36,600 --> 01:12:39,240 wife took it and she read it, and so I read the whole thing 1495 01:12:39,240 --> 01:12:41,920 yesterday in one sitting. It was awesome doing speed 1496 01:12:41,920 --> 01:12:44,560 reading, but it's great. So I'd highly encourage you, not 1497 01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:48,680 for, for a variety of reasons, to get get the book, read it, 1498 01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,280 make yourself aware. And I think maybe the bigger 1499 01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:54,600 conversation we've had is don't be afraid to have uncomfortable 1500 01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:57,640 conversations where this about your body, it's like, you know 1501 01:12:57,640 --> 01:13:00,280 what if it's something that you're struggling with or 1502 01:13:00,280 --> 01:13:02,840 something you're experiencing, be it something neurological, 1503 01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:04,760 something going. You should feel comfortable 1504 01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:06,840 talking about this. And if it's serious enough, you 1505 01:13:06,840 --> 01:13:10,320 need to go seek help. If you're wait, the longer you 1506 01:13:10,320 --> 01:13:13,040 wait, it's not necessarily going to get better. 1507 01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:16,720 So be open to talking about this, be open to sharing this. 1508 01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:20,120 The more you talk about it, the more everybody else learns. 1509 01:13:20,120 --> 01:13:23,160 And I think they need, we need to remove that shame with that. 1510 01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:26,640 I think, Kerry, if you've done a phenomenal job being a massive 1511 01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:31,200 spearhead for not just, you know, with safe sport, not just 1512 01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:34,000 with speaking up, but also for how people see themselves. 1513 01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,280 And it goes back to our very beginning subjective question 1514 01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,280 that you talked about going start thinking a little bit more 1515 01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,360 about being nicer to yourself, right. 1516 01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,920 Like do you have to hit the exact splits every time? 1517 01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:47,840 No, because actually we know now that you hitting the exact split 1518 01:13:47,840 --> 01:13:49,680 every time isn't necessarily good for you. 1519 01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:52,880 There's normal variety. Our bodies are not perfect. 1520 01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,240 They're not machines. And that's actually what makes 1521 01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:57,760 it amazing. So thank you so much. 1522 01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:00,360 Is there anything else you want to listen to know in terms of 1523 01:14:00,360 --> 01:14:02,160 where they can find you? Obviously you have a great 1524 01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:03,600 website. You got a great social media 1525 01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:05,280 platform. I know you just said you started 1526 01:14:05,280 --> 01:14:07,400 your Strava, so I don't necessarily like throw people 1527 01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:10,040 that way, you know? So what's the best way to find 1528 01:14:10,040 --> 01:14:11,640 you? What's the best way to follow 1529 01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,560 your journey and your amazing commentating, by the way, which 1530 01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:16,400 I can't say this enough. Watching you over the last 1531 01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,760 couple of years commenting it like New York and all this stuff 1532 01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:20,200 is awesome. To have your voice there. 1533 01:14:20,200 --> 01:14:23,080 You do a great job not to make you embarrassed or anything. 1534 01:14:23,520 --> 01:14:24,920 No, thank you. I appreciate it. 1535 01:14:24,920 --> 01:14:28,000 No, I I appreciate having this conversation with you both and 1536 01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:30,400 thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 1537 01:14:30,600 --> 01:14:33,000 That's sweet. You can find us and we're going 1538 01:14:33,000 --> 01:14:34,680 to post this. We'll have it on all of our 1539 01:14:34,680 --> 01:14:39,000 normal channels, be it YouTube, Spotify, iTunes, the different 1540 01:14:39,000 --> 01:14:41,120 areas you can find that. You can also find us on all the 1541 01:14:41,120 --> 01:14:43,160 different social media channels that are amazing. 1542 01:14:43,160 --> 01:14:46,560 Social media wizard Bach puts up there, be it Instagram. 1543 01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:49,360 Our website is the main place you can find us Tiktok. 1544 01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:52,040 And I'm going to give Bach credit because he did an amazing 1545 01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:53,640 job with this. LinkedIn is actually still 1546 01:14:53,640 --> 01:14:56,760 really taking off, which blows my mind every time, but it's a 1547 01:14:56,760 --> 01:14:58,760 great place. Again, any place you want to 1548 01:14:58,760 --> 01:15:01,920 find us, apologize. If you do contact us. 1549 01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:04,640 It does take us a little bit of time to respond because we do 1550 01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:06,640 get lots of emails. We appreciate you following. 1551 01:15:06,640 --> 01:15:09,760 Hope as always this is helpful. Hope you get some information 1552 01:15:09,760 --> 01:15:12,480 from this episode that changes how you think, cuz that's all we 1553 01:15:12,480 --> 01:15:13,200 want to be able to help.