Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast,
where we, a group of Doctors of Physical Therapy, discuss the
art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our
feet. We are powered by rabbit
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Matt, we now get to talk about what we are testing.
It's just Matt and I at the round table, so you're stuck
with just the 2 of us. What sort of things have you
been getting on your feet? What are you testing lately?
Dude, I have a ton of stuff. Ill stick with the new stuff at
the moment. Um, biggest thing.
I just got my feet into the new Sockany Ride 19. which obviously
honestly feels like a mini triumph, to be honest.
So previous versions have been like a little, I cushioned,
obviously, but a little firmer, a little snappier.
This one in a different direction where it's softer,
kind of more plush, a lot thicker upper, so it's been a
really interesting experience to a run in this because it's
obviously software. I've been able to run as long,
uh, just because it's a little software, a little less stable
than previously, but Outsoul is doing pretty awesome and hanging
on really well. So, there's that one.
Even with the, yeah, it's kind of cut at the midfoot and it
hasn't ripped off for you. It has not ripped off yet.
We'll see what happens, but yeah, it's also pretty thick, so
it's good. Um, the puma deviate nitro elite
4 has been on my feet, and I just finished my miles, and I
didn't know what to expect with this because the last one, I
know people really love it, and I was kind of like, man, like it
was super stiff, and then it just kind of lost its bounce.
This one went the opposite where I put it on.
I'm like, okay, like it's light, that's nice, right?
It's got a good, you know, classic puma, nice upper.
And then when I really got into the workout, I was like, oh,
like this feels good. It's very like speed dependent.
It's one of those ones where you warm up in this, you're going at
easy pace. You're not really going to
notice this, but when you can really get on that like heel
midfoot and like roll through, the plate that's curved, you can
see that they've split the plate here in the bottom, um, so
they're one of the many companies that are exploring the
non-full contact plates or the non, like the, like plates with
holes in them and stuff like that, just to drop weight, stuff
like that. But this thing is 6 ounces.
It's great. I love that these things are
starting to feel like racing crews again instead of these
giant bulky, like kind of heavier lightweight trainer.
Like, it's really snappy and fast.
It's just interesting that it doesn't take that much, but once
you pick up the pace, it's a lot better.
So thinking about doing a 5K in this, but still, I don't know
what people are talking about. These are not stable, right?
Narrow midfoot, not like, there's a small sidewall here,
but softer foam. I'm not sure where people are
getting the stable part from. It's not unstable, but it's not
overly stable either. So sorry, people, the stable
neutral fam. I don't know.
This is still not, in my opinion, part of the group.
You were going to say something. I was going to ask.
I found, especially with version one, like I loved when that shoe
came out. It was one of those that I could
take easy and I could go fast because it was really light.
So you could just turn over quick, but it had a geometry
that made it easy to warm up in and all that.
Does it carry that into this version?
I didn't get it as long as well when they increased the toe
spring and some of the other versions, but yeah, I think
version one or version three. Sorry, was super stiff.
Version one was like the OG. Now that you say that, I would
say there are some, I didn't realize that until you said
that. There are some similarities to
version one, just a little bit firmer and a little bit more,
once you pick up the pace, then that bounciness comes out, but
it just feels more aggressive. Version one was like the do it
all, comfortable, like your entry level super shoe that was
just felt good. This is still the like, yeah,
it's definitely a racing shoe. It's definitely approachable,
but it's still definitely a racing shoe.
Okay. Did you test the most recent
fast star? Yes, the yes, I did.
Yep. That's if you were aggressive.
Yeah. I was going to say, if you're
going to talk, who would like one versus the other, how would
you talk about that? Because you got 2 racing shoes
from them. They're pretty different.
It sounds. They're very different.
So, I mean, anything's going to feel stable compared to the
Faustor three. But that's your, Hey, you've got
really stable stiff mechanics, you are running it extremely
high speeds. That's it's a very specific
tool. The deviate naturally for is
going to have a lot more versatility for a larger
variation of runners, right? Just because, again, not as
unstable. You can certainly jog in it.
It's not the greatest one for that, but it can certainly
handle that. And I think it's going to
respond a lot better to a greater variety of people.
Like any, you know, you've got your person whose normal paces
like 12 minute pace, and they want a super shoe, and then they
go, and they're like, yeah, but my race base is like 9, 10
minute pace. This is going to be a lot better
option or even the deviate nitro 4 or something like that.
But because this is going to handle greater variety of
pieces. I feel like the fast start, it's
like, it is a wild animal to shoe. either hold on or you
can't. I feel like half the time I
can't, to be honest. Yeah.
Cool. what else you got So I also just got the Under Armor
velocity Elite 3 on my feet. and so have been very interested in
the issue of the while. I feel like they've made a lot
of improvements compared to version two, so much later.
Full, like, full height, superfoam now.
I believe it's called Hover Plus.
Um, still feels a little bit older foam in terms of like kind
of like reminding me. BJ was joking about this, but
it's what it feels like is kind of more of that feel, like these
sock and the endorphin pro 2 kind of like power run PB,
little bit softer, did great on an easy run pushing a stroller,
ironically, so great rubber coverage.
We'll see how this last upper is obviously fantastic.
Under Armor does usually a good job with that.
But still a little bit on the heavier ed for racing shoes.
So I think they are catching up. I'm excited to get my miles.
I haven't done a workout in the shoe, but they're they're
getting there. It's definitely more stable.
Like this internal cutout is definitely helped out a little a
lot. And there is a pretty
significant sidewall that seems to offset the narrowed midfoot,
but we'll see how the miles keep going.
What's your perspective? When it comes to cutouts.
How big does the cutout have to be for it to make a meaningful
difference? Like the kind of that,
especially when it's a full ravine in the middle and what's
the, why do we think that helps or why does it not?
I wish I had a good answer for you, but I'm going to be very
honest that I don't know and nobody knows.
I mean, maybe there might be some company out there that
studs some like small sample size of like testing that, but I
think, obviously, the larger it gets, probably the more likely
the significant it's going to make, but I don't know that for
sure. You can also see companies that
maybe don't have a gap, but they got this like really large flex
group. So I, again, I'm going to say I
don't know to what degree it makes an impact.
I just know that, again, the idea is that path least
resistance. And that's what I've been told
when I've asked people in the development world going, yes,
you know, when you create stuff like this, you have kind of less
resist, less emotion here whereas you go into the other
side. There's more material, so that
basic physics principle, if you're going to go to the path
of least resistance, is kind of the idea.
And that's what it feels like to what degree you need to, what
width or size you need to create that to make a meaningful
effect? I don't know.
Yeah. There's no research on it at
all. Nobody's ever touched that in a
paper, but people talk about it in the industry all the time.
I think one of the things I think about is, you know,
there's a difference between the guidance line of like, say, the
nimbus of like 2016. You know, they always had that
line up the middle and maybe even uh, some shoes that have a
little bit of a cutout in the middle, but not all the way to
like a plate. When it comes to these ones, I
go all the way to the plate and come way back to the heel, I
think about how much the foam on the medial and lateral side get
to interact with one another. And when you have a smaller
pillar of foam that's just sitting on that outside of the
shoe on the lateral side, we usually land on that position
because most people are going to land on the outside, which is a
typical gate pattern either in the heel or up in the midfoot.
And if there isn't full crossbridges of the foam
compound all the way across. I think that allows it to
compress a lot easier on that lateral side and have more
displacement, which I think might give some of those shoes a
little bit of a lateral bias to it because you can really
collapse it. I'm thinking about some extreme
shoes that I've tested in prototypes where they not only
had to cut down the middle, but they also had additional ones
that went across the side. So you almost had these little
pillars and I would just slam all the way through them because
they weren't, they were just independent little pillars
instead of hanging out of the whole thing.
So I think that there might, I don't know if you, do you ever
feel that for these shoes of the bigger cutout that it laterally
biases you or not so much? I do, the ones that seem to,
obviously, to me, make the bigger difference of the ones
that have a medial cutout, like a CLO X 12.0.
Really, I struggle with because it had this massive medial
cutout, and I just collapse through that.
I think the lateral cutouts. I tend to do better as somebody
that has excessive medial motion.
Um, but the person that's definitely the good person to
ask about this is Andrea, because she is very sensitive to
that lateral push. Well, I wonder even for you, if
just those big cuts down the middle tend to give you a
lateral bias because the lateral side compresses more, and then
you roll into the medial side, which isn't already compressed.
So it's almost giving that almost a wedge feeling to it, a
dynamic wedge. I guess you could say.
Yep, potentially. For sure.
Cool. Nice.
Well, I have not been testing much new.
There's been 2 shoes that I've been getting some miles on as
I'm getting back into my habit of running.
Um, well, I got to run my 1st like event.
It wasn't a I did not race it, but I got to run an event.
It's the Bok run. It happens every single year at
our local brewery and a couple 1000 people come out.
It's always a really fun community event.
But it was a 5 mile run. I was able to keep my governor
on and standard control, even in like a race environment.
But I ran it in the, uh, on Cloud Monster Hyper, uh, the new
three, three, right? Yes, two, three.
And not the light spray version, just the regular tie up version.
And as much as I hate the price tag of that shoe, because I have
it, I do love to run in it. especially for what I'm coming
back from with kind of my foot and how that allows me to roll
through on a stiff rocker without any toe spring, really
nice accommodating fit, so it works well for me.
The other shoe that I've been really liking for easy runs has
been the NeoZen 2, and I'd love to actually hear your
perspective on this because a big, the biggest change that
they made is they changed the midsole on that shoe and they,
in the version one, it was identifiable, very, very soft,
and it was a super critical TPU midsole, I'm pretty sure.
And then I think the newer one is an EVA mid-sole.
And I think that that has been a source of contention for people
of like, oh, this is a movement backwards.
What's your current perspective on one versus 2 and just foam
compounds in general? I think I wish I could tell you,
oh, yes, if you exactly change the midsole property, then that
shoe also change as opposed to getting made fun of with the
neo, why am I blanking on the original neo Vista?
like, oh, this is a superforming, like, it's
expanded EVA. Like, I don't know what is going
on anymore. Um, so it definitely feels to me
like a less compliant mitzel than the original, which I
really love. The thing that's really given me
a hard time, though, is the heel counter and the heel padding is
like digging up into my Achilles.
So I've had a little trouble getting miles on that.
But what the ones I have, yeah, it's definitely a bit firmer,
which to me, ironically makes the shoe feel lighter, just
because I'm able to get off the platform quicker.
Whereas version one, I didn't feel like I know a lot of people
are like, it's such a light shoot with it.
I think because I collapsed into it and I couldn't get bounced
out of it because it was so compliant.
It made the shoe feel heavier to me.
And that's just one of the many ways that our perception, our
interaction with the shoe can influence how it feels and can
be totally different person to person.
So I wouldn't say it's a step back.
I would say it makes sense based on, I think, and not everybody's
going to like this, right? So the fact that it felt the 1st
version felt a little bit too mushy and a little bit unstable.
Um, This one definitely takes that, which makes sense because
the EVA foam may have a little bit more, a little less
compliant than some of the new TPE foams, which just makes
sense, whether that's going to work for a person.
No, it just makes version one and version 2 very different
shoes. What do you think?
Yeah, I guess I have a couple thoughts.
One is that from a personal preference standpoint, version 2
works way better for me. Version one was too compliant
for me, and I kind of felt that mushiness, and I just couldn't
get high mileage because it just was too soft, and I felt like my
feet had to work too hard. And I think the maybe feet
working too hard. I put that in quotes.
But that's what it felt. It's what it felt like.
And then, the other part I didn't like about version one
was the upper. So, unlike you, I'm getting
along really well with this upper, I feel like the paddy in
the heel grips really well and has a nice structure to it and
it holds me and is secure, whereas version one was a little
loosey-goosey in the heel and so I slid all over the place and it
was never bothersome, but it wasn't comfortable.
So I think they, that moved in the right direction.
I liked the little bit less compliance in midsole.
So I like version 2 more. I think talking about the foam
compounds in general, I am far from an expert in this stuff,
but from the experts we have talked to.
There is no longer the ability to say foam compound A, EBA, is
better or worse than foam compound B, TPU, or whatever
compounds you want to throw in there because you can do things
now that couldn't be done 10 years ago with kind of
management of the creation of these foams.
And so you can have an EVA that has the same performance
properties from like a foam's compression and rebound
standpoint. So I think it's, unfortunate,
it's, it's, we can't just say EVA is better or worse, in my
opinion. What we don't get privy to are
those specific details that they measure in the lab because
that's all kept in house, which makes sense.
But I think for us is people who go out and try to buy these
shoes and especially for people like us who nerd out on this way
more than we should. Sometimes we do wish we'd
understood the difference in the categorization of these foams,
or if you're going to say it's an EVA, convince us that that's
not a worse thing, because EVA has a connotation that I don't
know if it deserves. I think the other thing we have
to run into is that I don't I don't know if there's really any
pure foams left because, and kudos to Andrea and Corey, who
we've had on the podcast many times, who who taught me this,
that this, that most foams are blends now, right?
Like it's not pure even. It's like if you have anybody
choose a foam, right? So new balance with their fuel
cell or Nike with their Zoom X or Adidas with their light
strike or Socony with their, um, what am I blanking?
Not indorphing pro, power on PB. Thank you.
And now power and HG and all the other stuff there.
They're not pure anymore. There are variations and they
use a couple different materials and even though it has the same
name. It's not the same.
And people know that, right? If you're running in the new
Nike structure versus the vapor fly, those shoot 2 Zoom X ones
bring in a field complete, and there's also other EVA film in
the Snike Surf, that's not a great example. will be a better
example. Uh, the Nike, uh, Pegasus Plus
versus the vapor flight. Those are not the same Zoom X.
And yet, it just says Zoom X foam on the site.
All these films are tuned or modified with different blends
to create what they're hoping for.
Depending on the company because, like, ASIX does a, they
never change their foam. If they call it fly foam turbo,
it's always the same. Got it.
Like no matter what shoes. So they they've been pretty
transparent with that one. They've been on the show here,
but I think that's that's a unique part of this from
navigating that as like people. So I think it goes back to try
it. and figure out what the heck you like because if you love a
shoe that has EVA, who cares that it's EVA?
It's performing the way that you want it to, especially if it's
for, you know, daily miles and easy runs.
I will also say that people like to focus on the mitzvah foams,
but they have to realize that there are other factors that
influence, even how the cushioning feels underfoot, like
how much outsole material can firm up or stiffen up a shoe, a
plate or stiffening agent, even your perception of the shoe.
There's been some very interesting evidence out there
going, like color, all kinds of stuff.
The purpose of what you expect it to be.
There's all kinds of things that, and geometry is a big one,
can also influence that. So the foam is one piece of the
puzzle, and I know it sounds like you're making this really
complicated, and you could totally ignore us. and just
like, just put it on and see how it fits, and that's kind of the
best option, to be honest. But if you are someone who is
learning that you want to be a little picky, you kind of have
to figure out, okay, there seems to be a combination of things I
like what combination typically works for me and what doesn't.
So you can be on either extreme, on either end of this and you
can be, you'll be totally fine. Just depends on how much you
want to try to figure out and try to predict.
Yeah. I wish I could go back and
before we started talking about all of these acronyms, EVA, TPU,
et cetera. I wish we would have given a
little bit of a background. So, yeah, ethylene, vinyl,
acetate or something, but it's all what we're talking about are
different base products that get turned into foams and the
properties of those. We do have an episode from a
while back. I wish I could recall what
number it was, but we brought on a material scientist and they
talked about what these are and how they're developed and things
like that. So we can maybe try to find that
and post it somewhere. Um, any other shoes that you're
testing or things you want to chat on?
Actually, I got to throw up the, and again, a big thank you to
our followers who mentioned this shoe because if they hadn't
mentioned this, I would have had no idea it existed, but the
Sockony Omni 23 ST. This might be one of my favorite
shoes of this year. I keep grabbing it.
I think I've almost got 70, 80 miles in this thing.
Durability is doing fantastic. The support is holding up really
well. This is probably one of the
better feeling power run PB. Mid-souls, I felt in a while
where it's like it just balances out between the post and the
soft, bouncy cushioning there. It's not the fastest shoe, but
man, it can do long runs, easy runs, a little bit up tempo
stuff. It's been really, really really
good. I'm just like, one of those
sleeper shoes going, Sockani, why are you not talking about
this more? Like this shoe was, it's been
awesome. It's been a great shoe.
And then as per requested from Nathan.
I'm getting more miles. on the on cloud.
Let see if I can say this correct.
On Cloud Monster 3, hyper light spray.
Is that the right order? I don't even know.
So I've got about 50 miles on this thing thus far.
Upper is still holding up well. I am starting to notice I'm
getting a little bit more translation in the upper.
It hasn't, didn't cause any issues today on a long run, but
it wasn't, I did like 10.5 11, so it wasn't the longest thing.
We typically do in like 12, 13. So it's done several long runs
well. It's very light and does
workouts very well for those who don't necessarily want to plate,
but still want something that there's no way there's not a
plate in this. This is so stiff.
And I think about that every time I put it on, I'm like, ah,
it's not played. It shouldn't be.
And then I like hit some fast workout. like, oh.
So, yes. I felt that way when I blind
reviewed. So like blind reviewing, meaning
I didn't look any any of the specs or anything about the
shoe. I just took the shoe out of the
box and ran in it, the mega blast.
I thought there was going to be a plate in that thing because
even with bending it in my hands, but nope, there's just
some shoes with the amount of foam that's in there and the
construction of it. It just does not budge.
Super stiff. That said, again, it's still
stiff, so it's still, again, the whole concept thing, stiffing
Adrian or not, the shoe doesn't flex, right?
That's, there's stiffness. So it handles workouts really,
really well. I'm just on the same page here.
There's nowhere on the upper. Jeff Dengate actually reached
out to me. I did not respond, which now I
feel bad, from Runner's World, and said that he's used this on
like trails and gotten mud on it, and you can just hose it
off, and I haven't tried that, but living in Oregon.
But it is starting to get a little bit more flexible.
So it's held me well. But we're going to keep getting
miles in this and see how long this thing really upper left.
The outseal is great. I mean, there's like nowhere.
So it's good. But we'll see.
I would love to see if you could put 400 miles in that shoe.
Dude, it also feels like it has its thrown out numbers for you.
It also feels like it has a medial post.
The arch is so high and so aggressive.
It feels like a stability shoe. I'm going to say this.
You feel that? Yes. the other one, the other
upper two? I don't feel that in that much.
I just curious. Yeah.
That's again, where I'm like, are these really similar to
Latin? No, they feel completely
different. Like, the I love the hyper is
great. It's a really great shoe.
It versatile. good. This, like, I, the 1st time I
wore it, I got that, like, shin splint type feeling where I'm
like, oh, I've got a shoe that's like too stable and it stopped
me from pronunating and now my shin's starting to ache a little
bit on the 1st run with this. I feel I feel more of a post in
the Super Blast three. Interesting.
I know I know that you don't feel that.
I am not. But I feel that little bit of a,
because they bring up the, the flight phone max.
Is that what's at the bottom? And they bring that up and build
it up on the medial side by the arch, and I can feel that into
my foot. And I'm usually more sensitive
to that stuff anyway. It doesn't, it's not super
bothersome, but I know it's there when I put the shoe on.
Cool. Anything else that you're
testing? Man, it's a lot of stuff right
now. Um, there's one, uh, I've got, I
guess I can say this now. got the garacarbon 3 out there,
which has been interesting. Speaking of lateral cutouts, I
forgot that we, that this episode will be out long after
the, the release date, but it's been a, Diodora, I think is, is
on their way. They're not quite there yet.
Um, it's very, if people with narrow feet, you're going to
love some of their shoes. Like, there's really narrow
fitting, which I can totally see some people liking. been a
little challenging for me. I just, I don't know why them
and a few other companies keep making that really big poster
flare. It just makes the ride so
clunky. and I just, if you land farther forward, Great. you
gonna miss it, but then you're adding a necessary weight.
So I just, I, I understand also that they're like probably the
thought process I've been told is you're trying to reduce, if
people understand this and the, the listeners aren't going to
see this, but people look at like ground reaction forces and
there's like, if you're a heel striker, there's this kind of
initial peak that happens where there's like the little sharp
thing and then you get this like rounded curve as your body
starts to like transition over. And some of the things that
people said is, oh, if you have this extended transition time,
it spreads out that peak over a longer period, the challenge is
that's only looking at ground reaction forces and ignoring the
rest of the biomechanics of the lower extremity, which then you
have an early initial contact. You're landing before your
body's muscles are ready. You are also have, like, moments
and torques of things that are happening that actually
accelerate your foot from heels from being in a more dorsy flex
to planter flex position quicker, which puts more load on
your Dorsy. like, yeah, man, like don't, I think some people,
I don't know if this is what's going on, but I think some
people look at certain biomechanical things in
isolation. You can't do that.
Unless and let me know if I'm totally wrong and there's some
other reason that this, they're doing this is, but...
No, I think that's the philosophy in...
I remember when the 109 came out from Hoka.
And when the Clifton Edge came out, they were really touting
that as a way to kind of be like the crash system in a car where
like the front of a car when it gets in a crash, like kind of
folds like an accordion that slows down that impact force.
They wanted to apply that to running footwear.
And there's a reason those have not grown in popularity.
It just doesn't work. So those are gone.
They no longer try to make those.
I think the concept can be thrown out there, but it's not
going to work for runners because it's not going to be
comfortable and it's just not going to work.
So, it's going to work when you avoid it.
And then what's the point of it being there, you know?
So it's, uh, I think it's just not, not something that's
gonna... But, I mean, not surprisingly.
Yeah, the shoe looks awesome though.
Like, they crush making good looking shoes.
Just it's going to work for a very specific runner.
And it's very expensive. Yes, it is.
Very, very, is it 350? that what it is?
I don't remember. That's a great question.
I don't remember off the top my head.
I think it's somewhere in the 300 I think it's 300, I think.
Is it the Garcarbon 3? Yeah.
Anyway, it's it's definitely on
the on the very pricey end. Premium.
But the outsole has not come off yet, which is a big deal
compared to version. a good thing.
That's good thing. That is definitely an
improvement. Well, thank you for sharing
everything that you're testing. The in for testing segment is
always fueled by Scratch Labs. If you want any hydration or
inrun nutrition stuff or recovery stuff.
You can go to Scratch Labs website and check out what
they've got. And if you want, you can use the
code Doctors of Running to get 20% off your 1st order.
Hey, do you think if I keep complaining about the watermelon
flavor with, like, you know how, like, when I generally complain
about things, eventually it actually happens, like, now this
has been reinforced. Like if I keep complaining about
that? Is this going to happen?
I'm not feeling hopeful for you because they just took one of
their, uh, like temporary seasonal ones and they made it a
standard one, the passionfruit guava, orange or whatever, which
I like that one. It's very sweet.
Like it doesn't, like, very sweet forward.
Um, but because they just made that official, I don't have hope
for you. I still have the empty bag in my
office just sitting there going, well, funny.
I'm just kidding All right. But what we get to talk about
now is something that you've been thinking about quite a bit.
And so we want to spend the next part of this episode talking
about strength training for runners.
I think that if you are a runner and you're listening to this,
you probably love running. And if you're like me, you love
running to the point that anytime you can run instead of
lift, you probably make that decision or at least a lot of
people do, which tends to result in not giving our body stimuli
that can help it become more robust from different types of
injuries, everything from tendon related injuries to bone stress
injuries. So lifting's really important.
But it sometimes feels overwhelming.
And when you get so deep into running that you're thinking
about all the different types of runs and all the shoes and all
of the different training cycles and types of runs you could do
to get to where you want to go. You start to apply that to
lifting, it can feel really complicated.
I think what's interesting about lifting.
Then I'm going to let you go off is I was talking to somebody
who's not a runner at all. And they're like, well, don't
you weightlift? I said, well, no, because I
don't, I'm not very dedicated, which isn't true.
I actually been lifting consistently over the last 3
months happy for myself in that one.
But, um, What I say is like, I don't lift to lift, I lift for
my running. Like all of my decisions about
lifting are made in light of the fact that I have these running
goals and these things that I want to be able to continue
doing when it comes to running. So maybe there's a certain lens
that we can have that can take all of the concepts and lifting,
but bring it into a few that are helpful for us.
So I just want to hear, Matt, your thoughts on, like, Just
lifting in general, what's its place for runners and how do we
take all of the information that's out there and kind of
simplify it? Yep, and that's exactly where I
want to go, that I know that it's very overwhelmed.
We're in an age of information overload right now.
And if you look at any social media stuff.
There's a lot of people pushing like lifting and the way that
they push it isn't, I mean, it's not bad, but it's also like, oh,
you need to be spending like an hour plus and it makes this
sound really, you need to take all this time.
And that can be really overwhelming for runners who
like, like me and you, like, we don't have very much time,
right? We got kids, we got jobs, we got
multiple jobs. We got all kinds of stuff we're
doing. So trying to fit an additional
thing in there is really challenging.
And so what I'm hoping to get out of this is teaching people
and having a conversation with you about, like you said, how to
simplify this, right? You want your any weight
training that you do or strength training.
I'm going to call it strength training because it can or not
can or not involve weights depending on the load and what
you do. Um, but you should it should be
simple and should be doable. And I deal with this with
patients all the time that if you, and I tell students this,
if you give to people too many things to do that takes too much
time, they're not going to do it.
If you want to do something that's sustainable, it's gotta
be manageable. And I'm going to say this right
now. For most runners, you don't need
to be in the, doing strength training for more than like,
like 10, maybe 20 minutes max. Like, you need to pick a couple
things that are really specific. You can knock them out a few
times a week and be done and move on.
Because the other thing you have to realize is that you're
training for running, you're not training for strength training,
and they can get, they can get in the way.
So do you mind if I break up some myths?
Yeah, that'd be great. Great.
Can I say one quick thing to do for it?
before you... I think you mentioned this deal
idea of you're training for running and lifting can get in
the way. I think one thing that's true is
like most weight training isn't going to make you a worse
runner. It's probably like doing
something is going to be make you a better runner.
I think the thing, though, that does conflict is that running
takes a ton of energy. And especially if you're doing
long distance stuff or high mileage, you need to be
inputting a lot of energy into your body.
And then if you add these hour long lifts, you need even more
energy. And at some point, you have to
make sure that you're balancing the amount of energy expenditure
with what you can get into your body.
And so we want the lifting to supplement the running, not to
be, because if we can't recover, we can't have raw running, get
better. So we can't have it take away
from our recovery by doing too much.
So your concept of very low for the purpose of running is
meaningful. But yeah, let's do some myth
busting. So yeah, let me actually combine
what you just said with something else that's, I'm going
to refine it a little bit. right?
So one of the things that we've talked about, one of the things
that is now being blasted on social media is that saying
stray training prevents injuries.
It doesn't, actually. It can reduce the risk of them
if done right. But you can also increase the
risk of overtraining if you do accessive amounts of training in
general. That does not excuse train
training. Okay?
I know lots of patients who are overtraining and they've got,
they're like, I don't run that much.
I don't understand why I'm getting injured and they're
strength training 4 to 5 days a week.
They're running every day, and they're at Orange Theory, and
they're on the, I'm like, all right, like, there's, there's
only so much training volume that your body can handle, and
you can overtrain and you can induce an injury by overloading
your body. And so not knowing how to like
integrate your strength training and making sure you're doing
enough to get the stimulus you want and not adding to the
overtraining. Exactly.
That can hurt you, right? So strength training doesn't
prevent injuries, and it won't, it won't excuse dumb training,
and that includes doing too much in general.
If done correctly, it can reduce the risk of injury, but you
cannot prevent injuries because you can still do dumb stuff.
Nothing makes you invincible, okay?
So you can have a day with low sleep and high stress and you,
you know, every, you did everything else, right?
You got sick and then... So, so 2 things, strength
training doesn't prevent injuries.
It can reduce the risk of them, but it has to be done well
appropriately. And strength training is an
additional variable. When you add that in, it's gonna
affect your training because you've now added another
variable for your body to get used to.
Okay? There's generally 3 variables in
running training, frequency duration and intensity.
Okay? Frequency is how often you're
training, duration is how long you're going, either each day or
total volume in the week, and intensity is how much, how fast
or how frequently fast or like what the intensity is going.
Okay? The general rule is that during
a training program, like base training early stuff, you really
should only be increasing one primary variable at a time.
And if you're going to do a bunch of them, you have to back
them off and not increase them as quick.
Adding strain training is another variable.
So if you add too many things at once, that's how you overload
tissue and that might contribute to energy.
I am not saying strange training can causes injuries, I'm saying
how you add new variables in needs to be done carefully.
And strength training is an adjunct.
It does impact training time. Okay?
So, like, we totally get. And Nathan, I just said this,
totally get going. hey we've already got a lot of stuff going
on. How am I supposed to add this
in, okay? And so it needs to be doable.
That's why I tell people, no more than 10, 20 minutes, okay?
It does, you do more than that, it's going to take away from
training. If you're a professional runner
or you're a collegiate athlete, you've got the time, the energy
you're able to focus on this, great.
Most of us aren't that. So be specific and be very
intentional. And that goes into my next point
is that, to be honest with you, strength training does it make
you faster. It improves your capacity to
train and probably handle things like running faster or doing
things like that. But by itself just makes, it
does, it creases your strength or whatever variable of doing,
right? So that by itself, it's, you
still need to pair this with smart training to get the goals
you want to do, and that means running still needs to be your
primary thing. And finally, this type of
strength training you need do needs to be specific.
Not all strength training is the same.
And I'm going to argue right now that I think really high volume
strength training for most people is not a good idea.
I think it gets in the way of like, I'm talking like really
high rap, really like, you know, like very high volume, lots of
time in the gym, lots of weights being moved.
I don't think that's a great idea for most guys.
These long classes. Yes, yeah.
I think to be honest with you, the best thing for runners is
10, 20 minutes, 2 or 3 exercises, and just higher load,
less reps, and be done. Quick, good stimulus. move on so
you don't get in the way of your other training.
Yeah. I think what's important with
this, because I'm agreeing with everything you're saying, and I
think I like that you're taking these quippy statements, and
we've even referenced things like playometrics can have an
impact on running economy, but they can't be done in a vacuum.
Like if you never run, blyometrics aren't going to make
you a better runner, you need you need the cocktail of all of
these things. And so I like the nuance that
you're bringing to it. And I think one other...
Oh, you want to finish that before I have?
Yeah, you're probably about ready to say the same thing.
But different runners also need different types or different
amounts, right? Your ultra professional
ultramarathoner maybe might benefit from some higher volume,
although I might, I might disagree, but I could totally
see specificity of training going, hey, some higher volume
stuff or maybe some unstable surface training, if you're a
trail runner, everybody's going to need slightly different
thing. So, I will definitely tell you
what I'm doing right now, and there's very specific reasons
I've chosen each thing based on where load is happening, the
most clap, where classic injuries happen.
But also everybody needs something different.
And you kind of have to figure out what works for you, what
works for your time and what works that you can recover from.
Exactly. I, the, the other nuance I was
going to bring to it is, putting, the lifting weight
training side of it is assuming that your main squeeze, the
things that brings you the most joy in terms of moving your body
is running. And so you wanted, everything
that you would do would be to help you accomplish that bigger
goal. You might be one of these people
who's out there like, no, I love being in the gym.
I love lifting. Like, I love working on my, you
know, one rep max for squat and deadlift and like working for
certain goals, then this, these points aren't necessarily for
you exactly, but you still need to consider the nuance of the
balance of all your training. Actually, I would disagree with
you, but the other direction that I think the same, the same
concept is really important. If you like being in the gym and
your focus is one rec max or your hypertrovy stuff.
I hate to tell you this, running is going to get in the way of
that. I know everybody's like,
everybody wants to be the hybrid athlete, but when you... yeah
When everybody... maybe you don't have big goals for either.
You just love doing them. Oh, that's fair.
Yeah that's fair. That's who I'm saying.
That's fair. I just love to do both.
Yeah, you just have to know that if you are choosing to do both
at higher levels, they are going to get in the way of each other.
And that's that's not anybody's fault and I'm not trying to be
rude and I'm not trying to put anybody down.
Absolutely not. In fact, I'm just letting you
know that your improvements in each one are probably not going
to go as fast because you're creating 2 very different
stimulus side by side that are a bit counterproductive to
maximizing one. Whereas you can definitely use
what when you use one as an adjunct to the other, it can
really be supportive. But trying to do too many things
at once, right? That's not, we all can't be
Brian Clay, where we'd be this amazing decathlete that's really
good at everything, right? So that's it's just how it goes.
Everybody knows who Brian Clay is, right?
Okay. I don't think I do.
Okay. Amazing gold medalist.
I was going to say, that shouldn't be surprising for me,
though. Like, I'm not in, I'm not very
knowledgeable in a lot of ways, and this is one of them.
But I think I think the other thing to be said, though, is if
you are someone who has nominally worked towards any of
these goals, you end up loving wanting to get into lifting and
running at the same time, that's not to say that you can't make a
one more at max way higher than it used to be and run a faster
marathon than you've ever ran at the same time.
Both of those can happen. What you're saying is that if
you want to maximize your absolute potential in one, it's
harder to maximize your absolute potential in both.
But it doesn't mean that both can't be very good.
Yeah, you can make both happen. It's probably and there's going
to be exceptions to this, okay? This is not a hard fast rule,
but most people aren't going to make as big of improvements in
both at the same time. They still, not that you can't
get better. It's just that's basic
physiology. And you got to be able to.
And you got to be able to... Yeah.
Like, because if you want to get good at marathon in, you got to
run a lot. And you might not be able to be
able to handle running a lot and lifting at that intensity.
So it's usually being able to be really good at both is going to
take you a lot of time and just like, just like new runners get
hurt at a really high rate because they do way too much too
fast, typically that can happen with lifting too.
We're not speaking. not speaking negatively, by the way, of
people that do the multisport or the high rock stuff like that.
This is just basic physiology that, yeah, and there's some
people that do very well, both. And if you love doing high rocks
courses with classes with your friends and whatever, do it.
Yeah, absolutely. do that. absolutely do that and just make
sure that you're managing your recovery and all of the load and
if you're a person who's already gotten there, you're going to be
just fine. I've had lots of those
conversations recently with a couple high rocks athletes where
it's like, man, you were like, I'm not trying to hold you back,
but you jumped into this really quick.
I am not surprised you're... I not trying to be mean, but you
add a bunch of variables at the same time.
Right. That's not saying you can't do
this just, you know, you did more training, more recovery,
more energy, more all this stuff.
It takes time. And I think the other part I'm
reflecting on right now is we're having this conversation is that
you and I have a very biased viewpoint on the world because
who we work with most of the time are the people who are
injured. And so we have data that says
most runners get injured at some point, even within the year.
But at the same time, that's who we interact with.
And so we interact with the decisions that people make that
land them into those decisions, into those positions or the life
circumstances that land them in those positions and doing all of
these things that seem like, oh, I should be able to handle that.
It's just really, really hard to do.
I think what would be interesting, Matt, is to, is to
hear what your typical workout routine is.
I'm happy to share mine too right now.
And, uh, again, not as a prescriptive thing because as
you said, everyone's going to have different goals, but I
think both of our lifting routines are in that category of
people who love to run. And that's our priority.
And we want our lifting to support that goal of running.
So that's what we're coming in with.
But do you want to go 1st on what your routine looks like?
Sure. I'm actually going to back up
the things that I'm talking about with little education
about just basic running biomechanics and loads.
So that's actually how I eventually kind of settle on
this stuff. The original part was going,
yes, I need to do my heel, my heavy heel left, which my
Achilles tenon is doing great. right now.
And I finally, the mid portion is doing great.
I just was trying to get over that last hump of the
insertional, and it's for those who don't know, social
technopathy is very difficult to get there. a bugger.
I think what finally helped it had high enough load.
And then I was able to, like, like, had a slightly, like,
missed a day or 2 for a week and so had some time to recover and
then added the, like, was able to tolerate some stress.
I may or may not have also pulled my calf on that side,
which didn't, I thank goodness for the strength training,
didn't bother me, like I could run, and I could, it was, like,
irritability was so low. It was like, I definitely pulled
it. Still run.
It's tended to touch, but then I had a lot, like, much better
range of boat, like a little bit better range of motion, so I was
actually able to handle my Achilles 10 is still intact.
I checked it with diagnostical sound, be like, uh, Thompson
tests negative, ultrasound, the thing's still intact.
Okay. But I can now actually get off a
step now with the heel raises, which is made probably the
biggest difference recently. But anyway, um, so do a lot of
heel raises, obviously, because of the history of Achilles
anenopathy. So definitely loading that in
this long-term journey. But I want to talk about
thinking about the loads that we experienced during running
because that's what's really influenced my current program,
right? So if you understand, like, and
this is not all encompassing, but it's talking about what are
the primary things that these joints and muscles do.
Okay? So if you look at the ankle, the
ankle does do a little shock absorption, but really most of
the loads associated with the ankle happen during propulsion.
Okay? The soleus, the planter
flexures, everything that pushes that ankle, the majority of
propulsion during running at normal speeds happens to the
ankle. Okay, happens through the
Achilles tendon, happens through the soleus muscles.
And so my 1st exercise that I do is heavy heel raises.
And again, I'm looking to make tissue changes, not necessarily
looking to, um, and and like support my running.
So I don't do high volume. I will do very heavy weight
anywhere from single leg, like 7500.
This has taken a long time to build up to, and I modify it
depending on any new stimulus I add in.
Like, I just dropped the weight to £50 when I added the negative
heel drop in there, but £7500, 4 to 6 reps, max, 3 sets really
moving slow through that motion. Just trying to load muscle,
tendon, single leg, just because I know these things take a lot
of low, they need to be able to produce it and tolerate it.
Okay? So that's my 1st one.
Second one. hip and the knee really do quite well. and the
majority, while they do a little bit more as you get faster,
their major function is shock absorption.
Okay? Most of those muscles, the
quadricep, the glute muscles, are most active when you land.
They helped absorb all the forces, which is also, if you
look at a lot of running injuries, where a lot of running
injuries come from. dealing with eccentric and the loading
related to landing. That's why, like,
patelophomoral, shin splints are kind of the top 2 injuries that
people experience, and then Achilles tentenopathy is
generally number three. Okay?
So it's like shock absorption, then propulsion.
Okay? So, of the gluteo muscles,
right? So this is where I love step
ups, because step ups usually do a great job of loading the knee
and the hip joint. But if you actually look at the
different glute muscles, it's actually the hip abductors that
take a lot more body weight than the hip extensors.
So your lateral butt muscles take 4 to 5 times body weight
with each running step. Your hippic sensors don't do
that much. It's like one. 3.3.
Obviously, again, changes as you run faster, but those later ones
take a lot more force, and there's a lot greater incidence
of greater trocanteric pain syndrome and all those kind of
lateral hit IT band syndrome, all those things associate with
the hip-up ductors, are much more common injuries than your
high hamstring tenenopathies or your glute, your post, your
glute stuff, until you become an older master's runner, and then
that kind of switches, but that's a different story.
Okay, so I, my 2nd exercise is the lateral step up, because the
lateral step up has been shown to have some great load of the
glute mead and glute media some hip abductor muscles while still
loading the knee joint. So I get kind of the lateral hip
muscles that I'm looking to hit, both concentric and eccentric.
And this is the same thing. 4 to 6 reps, pretty heavy weight that
I'm struggling through. Partially because I want to load
the tissue and partially is I don't want to do too many of
these and I want to be done quick, right?
This is usually done after Isabel has gone to bed at like
10 o'clock at night. either before or after I'm trying to
shoot a video at the same time. So it's like...
When do you fall asleep? Yeah, like, uh, Exercising
before bed, probably. Anyway, I get it.
You got to fix stuff in somehow. It's not a great, but hey, man,
I'm just trying to fit stuff in. That's why I'm like, hey, dude,
for those out there going, how the heck am I going to fix this
in? I get it.
Okay?
Not judging. The last one that I've been
doing has been a balance between doing a little bit of
plowmetrics, just general double leg, lorx, Germany stuff, just
working on being able to like really react off the ground, and
part of that's because power, okay?
something that we as runners don't often work on a lot.
And the other pieces I know based on some of the research
I've been doing that we tend to lose that as we get older, okay,
at a very fast rate. So we're just adding just a
teeny band. And this is even less.
This is like 3 to 4 reps, just really quality, like squat jump,
just really quick getting off the ground.
Or what's been more frequent that I've been doing just
because I just like this as a general exercise, is doing
really heavy deadlifts and just going, hey, straight leg, trying
to, again, I know I said the posterior hip muscles don't
maybe get as much, but having a little bit of a history of
post-er hamstring, like upper hamstring tenopathy.
I'll do a little bit of heavy deadlifts for 2 reasons.
One, just to load that and keep loading that tendon so it can
handle running faster. And the other pieces, I like, I
just want a little bit more time moving something really heavy in
a double limposition because I know that when you do high
weight, low rep, double limb exercises, you typically get a
little bit more bone stimulus. And that's that last piece that
I'm looking for. And so those are my three, and
the last one kind of varies depending on what my goals are
at that moment and kind of what's going on, and I don't
typically do a lot of pliometrics when I'm in the
middle of really hard training, because it's another variable,
but like base phase, I'll kind of add a little bit more.
But those are my three, 10, 15 minutes done. move on.
And it's been great. I made some really significant
changes in how things feel, some of the stuff that I've
experienced and modified some symptoms, and then honestly just
felt, I know I said this doesn't make you faster, but just having
lots more stable hip, especially hitting the lateral step ups,
has made running feel a lot more stable, and honestly, I'm
tolerating some of the unstable shoes a little bit better as
well. which has been interesting.
That's great. about you? Yeah, I, I, yeah.
So I'm new to consistent lifting, and I hope that I can,
a year from now, say that I've been consistent in lifting,
because I go through these spats of like trying it.
I know it's good for me and I want to work it in at a
meaningful level and I have some accountability friends now that
are that are helping. There's a guy who graduated from
the PT program and he works for pineries running that I do run
coaching with. And so he and I have been
lifting every week and then I'm getting one more in a week and
it's been working. So I have 2 days a week that I
lift and I've been slowly building what it looks like, but
because I'm newer. This is where it's at right now.
So I usually warm up for about 5 minutes, walking on the
treadmill behind me or like riding on the elliptico, on the
trainer over there. So I'll warm up for a few
minutes. And then I do about 25 foot
contacts of Plio. So I have like a bench.
I don't know. Yeah, you can see the bench,
this bench. I stand on the bench and I've
just been doing landings. Yeah.
Why do you start with the playos?
Um, before my, I, the way I, the reason I've been doing it is
before my body's fatigued. I'm doing a landing early, just
so that I'm not doing it after my muscles are all fatigued out.
So that's how I've been doing it.
I totally agree with that. So I, when I generally, like,
either what I'm working with, I work with a lot of ACL
replacement, uh, athletes that have had ACL replacements right
now, and I always prioritize doing plyometrics 1st because I
don't want them going into plyos fatigue because the quality just
goes into the toilet. And if you really want to do
them Well, you got to do them. If you really want the effect,
you got to do the well. And it doesn't take that much,
but you got to do them right. And my issue in the past has
been I've tried to go too hard, too fast, and I end up hurting
myself doing my plios, like little tweaks.
So I've, I, for over a month, I just did drop downs into like a
double leg, drop down 25 foot contacts.
Recently, I've been doing it, drop down, and a counter jump,
so drop and then jump on the ground.
So that's where I'm at right now.
Just get 25 up to 50 foot contacts if I do the counter
jump. And then I go into day one is
like my squat day. So I'll just do a squat and then
I'll do with is heavy. I'm building up my weight into
heavier weights there. And then I do a single leg
exercise that's kind of working my quad.
So that'll either be a step up or a lunge typically.
And then I will do like a set of core for like.
It's honestly like 3 minutes, of core, like doing a plank on each
side and something like that. So it's day one.
It's literally just those couple lifts.
And then day 2 is kind of a posterior chain day.
And so I'm doing the same warm up, same plyometrics, and then
I'll either do deadlift or I'll do like hip thrusters.
So one of those 2 is going to happen.
And then I'll maybe do Nordics if usually I do that like when
my friend David is here. So, like, we'll do Nordics,
where you hold the heels and you slowly lower your body down, or
again, another single leg, like lateral hip exercise, and then a
core thing. So those are my 2 days, that's
all I'm doing right now. I don't actually plan for it to
grow in terms of length, just trying to increase the
robustness of the lifts and getting them to higher weight,
but that's pretty much it. What do your set and rep ranges
generally look like? Yeah, my, I'm keeping my, my,
each set is below 8 reps, 8 reps or lower usually.
Early on, I was doing very lightweight.
Like I just wasn't even going close to, I probably was not
even close to 50% one rep max, but I just wanted to get my body
used to lifting. So I was doing like 10 to 12
reps for that point at that point, but nothing more than
that. That makes total sense.
When people are newer, I generally suggest then like,
hey, you can start with higher rep.
That's fine. But as you get used to it,
right, you should, as you, as weight starts increasing as you
get a little bit stronger, you should start pulling that down
to where you're going, hey, by the time I'm getting to like
that 4 to 6, maybe 7 range, like I'm getting a little tired and I
want a little break. And the reason I advocate for
this is A, less volume, right? Because you're getting plenty of
volume from running, and there's only so much you recover from.
So again, that's going to be different if you have different
goals, but if the goal is running, okay?
That's where this comes in. The other piece is that a lot of
running is being efficient, and the intendance actually respond
really, really well to heavy slow loads.
And we know from our friend, Dr. Karen Cybernegle, that there's a
variety of lows that Tendo will respond to, but in terms of like
being like sparing muscle tissue, but also like building
muscle tissue resilience. I'm a really big fan of doing
something that's very different from running, running is
repetitive. It's over and over, endurance
stuff like even when you go, if you run a 5K, right?
That's still endurance, you still got a lot of steps in
there. If you're gonna add an adjunct
into your program, it should be different.
It should be supporting things, not just be more of the same
thing. So early on, yeah, if you need
higher rep, great, but I suggest pulling that down and starting
getting some heavier weights if you can, just because tenons are
going to respond better, bones are going to respond better.
Bones tend to. What was the comment?
I can't remember. I think it was Rich Willie said
this, and you've said this before, that, like, when you go
for a run, I think it's only the 1st few steps.
It's for 20 steps. And then those receptors fall
asleep. Yeah.
And so then the bones stop responding.
It's like, oh, they really respond better to those higher
loads. So from a using weight training,
strength training to support your running, to reduce injury
risk, to help support some of the tissues, give it a novel
stimulus, to keep to build some resiliency.
I'm a big proponent of get the weight heavier, get the reps
lower, get it done, 3 to 4 sets maybe, and then move on.
Don't spend all day in the wait room because you, you know,
that's not the focus. But it doesn't mean you
shouldn't miss it because, again, the thing that we lose
greatest as we get older, we lose, as we lose, as we get
older, we lose strength more than the relative muscle mass,
we lose, lose, and we lose greater power than we lose
relative to strength. Okay?
So like, especially the aging athlete, and we should all be
thinking about this. Even if you're a 20 year old,
you should be thinking for it because some of those bone
changes are starting to come at you and not too long of a time
that, you know, if you look at the evidence on power and
masters power and strength athletes, they maintain their
power and strength way better than endurance athletes and way
better than the average person. Obviously, endurance athletes
maintain their endurance. So if you're going to add a new
stimulus in, why would you add more endurance in, you're
already working on that. That's my argument.
Yeah, I love it. Well, we're going to wrap things
up here. I hope that you all enjoyed kind
of hearing our thoughts on where strength training may fit,
again, mostly for these people who really have running is their
priority. What we would love to hear from
you are things that have worked for you.
So as we said, we know that there's going to be a total
spectrum of things that people have found successful for them.
We know that the cocktail of making yourself healthy and
successful and achieving your goals can look a lot of
different ways. And if you're trying to get
started. Hopefully some of the
conversation here can be stimulus for that, but we also
have a really knowledgeable community of people.
So feel free to share your thoughts, things that you've
learned through the year's resources that you have found
helpful when it comes to running and weightlifting.
As always, if you want to reach out to us, you can reach out to
us at doctorsrunning at gmail.com.
We usually track all of the questions that roll in there and
then we try to answer them in various mailbag episodes in the
future. But thank you all for joining us
and being part of us.