1 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:10,920 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,560 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discuss the 3 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:15,760 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 4 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:17,560 feet. Today at the round table, we 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:20,000 have the founder of Doctors of Running, doctor Matthew Klein. 6 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,360 We have Doctor David Salas and myself. 7 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,000 I'm Nathan Brown, excited to be with all of you again. 8 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,520 And today we get to dive into the mailbag. 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,800 We have a lot of questions from you all. 10 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:32,840 Some of them are more broad questions. 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,320 Some of them are specific about shoes and some of them are 12 00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,000 specific about medical conditions. 13 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,280 And whenever we talk about medical conditions, we always 14 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,960 just want to say upfront that we're not giving medical advice. 15 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:45,720 We're just talking about these concepts in terms of how we 16 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:48,440 would approach them as healthcare providers, but not 17 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,640 giving specific medical advice to anybody. 18 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:55,040 And if you are dealing with any sort of pain, we definitely 19 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,640 think you should go see your physical therapist, find someone 20 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:00,000 who can help you work through all of those things. 21 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:03,040 But before we dive into the mailbag, let's talk about the 22 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,519 stuff that we have on our feet right now. 23 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,920 What do you have in for testing? And just a reminder, this 24 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:12,320 segment is sponsored by and powered by Scratch Labs. 25 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,960 And they pretty much have everything you may need from 26 00:01:15,960 --> 00:01:18,360 recovery to in run nutrition, dehydration. 27 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:20,640 So check them out if you have not already. 28 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,880 But Matt, what have you been testing lately? 29 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,400 So the main this is, it's going to be new for people. 30 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:27,920 It's not new for me. We've had this for a while. 31 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,240 I just hit 100 miles on the Brooks Adrenaline 25. 32 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,920 It has survived and most of the heel is still intact. 33 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:36,920 So this is by the time this comes out, this she will come 34 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:41,000 out November 1st of 2025. It's been a good update. 35 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,720 It's still not a sexy shoe, but it's just a good shoe for 36 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:49,360 walking general mileage. It is now 10mm drop, which I 37 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:52,200 think is the first time in its entire life that it's ever gone 38 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,320 from 11:50 heels, a little bit better bevel. 39 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,320 And so it's been kind of the smoothest heel translation, 40 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,960 which is why it's actually one of the first times recently I've 41 00:01:59,960 --> 00:02:03,480 taken adrenaline to 100 miles. It's not, again, not the bouncy 42 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,120 issue, but it can still get through daily miles. 43 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,199 Not a shoe I would use for anything fast, but just some 44 00:02:09,199 --> 00:02:12,640 slow updates from Brooks to go. OK, we're slowly moving 45 00:02:12,640 --> 00:02:14,880 forwards. Still very comfortable shoe and 46 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:16,760 another shoe that I'm going to go, hey, this is going to be a 47 00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:18,760 shoe you're going to still be this going to be popular with 48 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:23,080 the general public and I understand why other shoes that 49 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,600 I've got is the Hoko rocket X trail. 50 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,840 I am struggling A teeny bit with this this one a little bit just 51 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:30,720 because of the lower drop and I'm coming back from the 52 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:32,960 Achilles irritation that is actually progressing really, 53 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,560 really well. It's a really big piece of wood 54 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,120 stuck in the bottom of the shoe. It's a little lower drop. 55 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:41,400 The heel counters a little stiff, but outside of that, this 56 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:43,120 is a great shoe if you can handle that. 57 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,520 I it's like one of the first ones where I'm like, I really 58 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,680 enjoy this for doing true workouts on the trail. 59 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,280 Really nice bouncy, but not stable shoe. 60 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,680 Really great side walls, very stable with the wider midfoot. 61 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,440 I've just been really enjoying it's just the the lower drop and 62 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,640 the heel counter aren't quite working for me, but I think for 63 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:03,520 a lot of people it'll be fine. I also might suggest going 1/2 64 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,640 size up. It's definitely a teeny bit 65 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:08,680 short, but that's just the snug kind of racing feel. 66 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:14,640 Other stuff that I've got the mock X3, which is I mean upper 67 00:03:14,640 --> 00:03:16,360 update. It's actually the upper is less 68 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,240 secure for me than the original. And so this has been 69 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,680 interesting, but the soles supposedly the same almost done 70 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,920 with miles on this and then the Mizuno wave rebellion flash 3, 71 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,520 which I like this shoe, but I am struggling with it like that 72 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,640 feels like the rebellion pro one really nice upper. 73 00:03:33,640 --> 00:03:36,200 I would I think some people might suggest getting a half 74 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,360 size up, but it's been fine with the close fit. 75 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,400 It's just so medially biased that I am struggling with it and 76 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:44,760 I'm not sure how many miles I'm going to get on it, but I think 77 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,800 those people with more neutral mechanics or someone like 78 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:49,440 Andrea, they're gonna do really, really well. 79 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,520 So yeah, a variety of stuff that isn't working and we'll get 80 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:55,040 reviews on that stuff. But yeah, that's what I've got 81 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,560 in for testing. Cool. 82 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,880 What about you, David? Yeah, so I just finished the 83 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:02,800 written review for the Puma Magnified Nitro 3. 84 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:06,040 I got it right, baby. Let's go. 85 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,080 Heyo, I'm pretty sure this is the first time because usually 86 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:13,320 call the magnify the velocity and then the velocity. 87 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,160 You can never remember what the name actually is. 88 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,279 You're like some no. No, I think, I don't think I've 89 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,160 ever gotten the magnify wrong. I think it's that it's the 90 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:24,640 difference between deviate and velocity and then the deviate 91 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,800 Nitro elite versus the yeah, what's up, Matt? 92 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,560 At least you're not a fool like me who kept calling it the 93 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,680 Magnifly for a long time. It's on Magnifly. 94 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:37,640 Yeah. It's Magnify. 95 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,360 Yeah, Magnify. Puma Puma Magnify Topo magnifly. 96 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:45,920 Yes. Yes, and it's a clean white on 97 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,920 white colorway. How it's still clean, I have no 98 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,000 idea. You could see a little bit on 99 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,120 the bottom there and then on the medial side, actually that looks 100 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,240 pretty good. Anyways, very neutral shoe, very 101 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,640 neutral shoe. It's an interesting experience. 102 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,480 It's kind of like that traditional high drop training 103 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,440 feel like that you would expect from like a classic like let's 104 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,720 say Mizuno Wave Rider or like what the Pegasus used to be the 105 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:11,680 what the Cumulus used to be like. 106 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,840 It feels very traditional in that way from a drop in a 107 00:05:14,840 --> 00:05:17,400 transition standpoint. It's not super rockered, you 108 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:22,280 know, but the foam is really soft and that's the difference 109 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,200 where it's like it's a novel feeling to something that feels 110 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,400 traditional, if that makes sense, and very, very neutral 111 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,240 shoe because that that foam is really soft and there's a. 112 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,960 Little bit of sulfur, but not much. 113 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:39,000 It's it's just yeah, what's up did so I saw on there that now 114 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:40,760 the foam because I had the same experience as you. 115 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,600 We both are on that review. David LED it that it's a it's a 116 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,200 nitrogen infused peeba foam. I didn't see that anywhere 117 00:05:47,240 --> 00:05:48,920 though. I went through it's on. 118 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,600 I didn't see it's on running warehouse. 119 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:51,960 So maybe I'm wrong, Maybe I'm wrong. 120 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,080 But I'm yeah, sometimes it's on like the company site and what's 121 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,080 on a third party site differ a little bit. 122 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,080 I know it's nitrogen infused for sure. 123 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:03,080 It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it's a nitrogen 124 00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:05,600 infused people. I mean, it's like 9 oz, you 125 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,440 know, 10mm drop, 40 in the heel, 30 in the forefoot. 126 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:12,480 Like it's pretty fun. You know, it's just and and it's 127 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,120 it's funny because this is like one of the few shoes where I'm 128 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,240 like, this is not unstable. Like they do a pretty good job 129 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,080 for the platform that they have. It's just truly neutral. 130 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,720 Like this is like as neutral as a shoe can possibly get. 131 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,640 And I feel like normally when I'm in better running shape, I 132 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,120 could probably control the shoe just a little bit better. 133 00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:34,120 And I think I would really, really enjoy it. 134 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,400 And I still enjoy it now. I just, I feel like I find 135 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:39,680 myself kind of gravitating for things that just have a little 136 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,080 bit more structure on them right now. 137 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,080 But who knows? I get a month or two of running 138 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:45,800 under me and then maybe I love these shoes more. 139 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,280 But they're nice. It's an engineer knit upward. 140 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:53,520 They fit well, expands well, it's secure, it's good and then 141 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,680 the other ones that I have on my feet, the two that Matt said so 142 00:06:56,680 --> 00:07:01,200 the I'll just grab them. So Mach X3 wave rebellion, flash 143 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:03,640 3 from Mizuno and hookah recycling. 144 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,240 And then the one that was not listed is the Solomon arrow 145 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:10,880 blaze three gravel. I'm actually excited about this 146 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:15,240 one because I liked the Blaze 3, but it just felt a little bit 147 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,760 unstable in the midfoot, whereas I feel like putting a little bit 148 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,480 more of a thicker lug design might make it just a little bit 149 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,120 more rigid and make that transition a little bit 150 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:26,200 smoother. And who knows, I might actually, 151 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,520 I know this is technically meant to be kind of gravel, but I feel 152 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,640 like I might like it as like a road slash gravel and maybe 153 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,560 light trail shoe in comparison to the original. 154 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,080 And then it might end up just being a nicer trainer overall 155 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:41,120 like than the original. But I don't know that yet. 156 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,400 I still got a run in it so. That was my experience actually 157 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:48,000 with the Arrow Glide three gravel. 158 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:53,280 Where was it just the this firm or mid outsole just stabilized 159 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,600 it a little bit more and it was totally fine on road. 160 00:07:56,600 --> 00:08:01,240 It was a great Rd. trail gravel kind of shoe, whatever you want 161 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:02,200 to do. It's probably not the most 162 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,760 technical shoe, but we have a decent number of gravel roads 163 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,320 here in this part of Oregon and it was, it's been great to be 164 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,440 able to transition to. So I you may experience that, 165 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:11,760 but I might be wrong. I don't know. 166 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,240 Perfect. Well, my update is that I'm not 167 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:20,000 running anything. I had been training for the 50K 168 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,600 and just kind of trying to do this push for something that I 169 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:27,280 wasn't fully ready for. And I was able to run 20 last 170 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,080 weekend, a little over 20. And that was just super fun to 171 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,039 get a long run in a little over 3 hours for me. 172 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:38,640 And so I, I knew when I went out for that run, I was like, I'm 173 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:41,440 going to go out on this run to embrace the idea of going on a 174 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,440 longer run, whether or not it results in the fruit of actually 175 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,880 doing this 50K. And for those who've listened to 176 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,840 the podcast, I've spoken about my like thing with my big toe. 177 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,640 And it kind of blew up probably a year and a half ago now, maybe 178 00:08:55,040 --> 00:09:00,480 two years ago, can't remember exactly, but that came back on a 179 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,080 minor scale. It did not get super big and 180 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,760 red, but it swelled up enough that I could feel like, oh, this 181 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,360 is the start of what it was. And so I I'm just shutting it 182 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,640 down. So I haven't ran in a little in 183 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,320 a week, a little over a week now and that's OK. 184 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,560 I've got the Blaze grout, the Solomon Blaze three gravel 185 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,760 upstairs, but not haven't haven't gotten any mileage on 186 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:26,600 it. So David, that means you're off 187 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,400 the hook for your 50K unless you were going to do it anyway. 188 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:31,600 Yeah, when? He sends a message to our group 189 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,320 chat. I was like oh darn, looks like I 190 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,800 don't have to run the 50K. Also, sorry, Nate, Yeah. 191 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,720 Also, I'm actually sorry and I hope you feel better soon. 192 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,560 Yeah, I, I'm not too concerned. I, I think because I shut it 193 00:09:45,560 --> 00:09:49,920 down early, I'm going to be all right pretty quick here and then 194 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,640 just kind of get back to some base miles. 195 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,200 So like I said, I had a lot of fun running 20. 196 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,120 I ran the 20 in two different shoes. 197 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:59,280 I did like rotation of two different trail shoes just to 198 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,640 see what that would be like if I were going to, because I was 199 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,080 probably going to swap for the 50K because it was like the the 200 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,800 50K was going to take me like 10 to 12 hours. 201 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:13,160 So I was planning to switch because the, the fastest, the 202 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:18,400 fastest who's ever finished it is like 6640 or so. 203 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,600 So it's a little bit harder because it's just, it's just a 204 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:26,040 lot of, a lot of it's just up and down like a little. 205 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:27,480 I, I can't even call it a mountain. 206 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:30,600 I feel weird saying that, but I wonder what like it's, it's 7500 207 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,640 feet and it's just very, very up and down. 208 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,600 But, and it's central Wisconsin. So it's not like we're getting 209 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:41,560 these stellar ultra marathoners. I don't mean to offend anybody 210 00:10:41,560 --> 00:10:44,560 who runs ultra marathons in central Wisconsin, but we're not 211 00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:47,520 getting like, Jim Walmsley to come and like, set a course 212 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:48,880 record. I guess it's my SO. 213 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,800 There's a race here in Santa Barbara called 9 Trails and it's 214 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,000 basically up and down the 9 trails Pokémon country. 215 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,680 Is it Pokémon themed? It is, yes. 216 00:10:59,560 --> 00:11:02,640 Like Nintendo comes out, they throw a whole thing, you know, 217 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,520 you get to finish with a giant hug from Pikachu himself. 218 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,720 Like the short, the short himself herself. 219 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,680 There's a shorter, shorter version of the race called 220 00:11:09,680 --> 00:11:12,320 Vulpix, and you eventually evolve into the 9 tails course. 221 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,600 There you go. That was a solid pun. 222 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,760 That was a good one. I will welcome that. 223 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:20,480 But it was a good, it was a good team effort. 224 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,760 Honestly, that one's 35 miles, so just a little over 50K, but 225 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:27,040 I'm pretty sure the course record on that's like low sixes 226 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:30,920 and Jim has run that. He has the number two time I 227 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:32,800 think. So that's pretty, I think. 228 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:34,520 Rod might have got him last year. 229 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,960 It's it's not fun. It's like straight up, basically 230 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:40,680 you go from like sea level to 4000 over and over again. 231 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:42,960 Yeah, in a very short amount of time. 232 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,680 That's insane. Just weaving your way. 233 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,280 Yeah, it's, I don't know what the climb in the vert is on that 234 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:50,520 race, but that sounds awful. So who does? 235 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,720 Maybe I'll do it next year. Yeah, definitely. 236 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,280 If I do it, you'll do it. So anyway, not running anything, 237 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:01,800 but have been enjoying not running this past week. 238 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,680 It worked out well since it was the first week of the semester. 239 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:07,680 So I was just diving into getting my feet on the ground 240 00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:10,360 and connecting with students and stuff, which was great. 241 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:12,600 So that's what we got on our feet. 242 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:15,600 So if you want to try out scratch labs, which now is 243 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,920 coming out with different seasonal stuff as well, like 244 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,640 every fall they come out with their apple cider hydration 245 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:22,560 stuff. And I actually really do like it 246 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,360 in warm water, like as apple cider, it tastes, it tastes 247 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:28,320 stupid good. It makes me mad. 248 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,600 It shouldn't be good. It's not good and not as good in 249 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,560 cold water. I will con no warm water 100%. 250 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:37,120 It's awesome like cider. Cold water is kind of like. 251 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,840 I don't like it on the run. I'd like it in. 252 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,640 I don't like it as much on the run. 253 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,280 I'd like it in a mug with hot water. 254 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,800 But if you want to try scratch, we have a code. 255 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,720 It's doctors running. You'd get 20% off your first 256 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,040 order. All right, let's dive into the 257 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,080 mailbag. Our first question comes from 258 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:00,560 Simone from Italy, and they're asking this, how do you think 259 00:13:00,560 --> 00:13:04,040 shoe brands decide the stack heights of different shoes? 260 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,520 Do they test many different prototype stacks and found what 261 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,400 stack would work better with the foam and for its intended 262 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,080 purpose? For example, why is the Super 263 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,400 Blast 44 in the heel? I wonder what it would be at 264 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:22,120 3830 instead. And also, he makes a comment. 265 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,760 We want more stable neutral super shoes. 266 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:27,400 Matt. Matt's definitely not 267 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,760 disagreeing with you there. So before we even answer this 268 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,480 question, I think the reality is that every single company has a 269 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,040 different philosophical approach and resources to go about the 270 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:39,760 research and development for shoes. 271 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:45,680 What I can tell you is that we have heard stories of how shoes 272 00:13:45,680 --> 00:13:48,800 have gotten developed and the story does look different 273 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,120 depending on what the shoe is coming down the line. 274 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,440 So it's going to be hard to directly answer this question 275 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,040 because every shoe has a different Genesis and one might 276 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,880 go through a certain ability to test at different stack heights 277 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,920 and another one might not. And sometimes just as pops out 278 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,800 with what worked well and what tested with different runners 279 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:10,040 who they have that we're testing. 280 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,880 But do you have any other further thoughts y'all on this? 281 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,000 Yeah. I think we could start off just 282 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:18,880 by looking out what the market tells them. 283 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,600 I think that ultimately is one of the biggest drivers, right? 284 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:24,040 Because at the end of the day, these companies do have to sell 285 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:26,600 shoes. And so if consumers are saying, 286 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,800 hey, we want it higher, we want it softer, a lot of companies 287 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,920 are going to start making them higher and softer. 288 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,560 That doesn't exactly answer the specific stack height 289 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:38,080 measurement. But let's say all the shoes were 290 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,920 35, then they go to 40, then they go to 45, right? 291 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:42,800 And that's kind of where we're at right now. 292 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:48,080 But where I'm going with this too, like when we see a lot of 293 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,040 these new shoes coming out, we're also seeing the 294 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,080 advancement of some of these technologies. 295 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,040 And like you alluded to this earlier, but like sometimes you 296 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,080 can only do so much with the material that you know, and 297 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,840 sometimes they can't fully compress it down to 35 or 30, 298 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:03,520 depending on the foam and what they know about those 299 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:05,720 properties. And that's going to go more into 300 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,760 the material science and chemical side of things. 301 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,720 But sometimes they just, they just can't and, and, and maybe 302 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:14,000 they can in the future, but they got to like learn how to hone 303 00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:18,000 these materials in because when we see those materials, 304 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,200 sometimes they might get that material literally like less 305 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,720 than two years from you seeing it on your feet, Which means 306 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,120 they have to get this thing, scale it, make a shoe, and then 307 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,440 like get it out to the people in a pretty short amount of time 308 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,840 from a development standpoint and, and a scaling standpoint. 309 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,160 So ultimately the market's going to kind of drive what people are 310 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:40,800 going to see coming back out because of all the feedback. 311 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,960 But every company does have their internal testings. 312 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:48,000 I remember on the podcast we had actually, I don't know if those 313 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,080 podcasts were internal, so I will, I won't say the company, 314 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:53,800 but there was a company making a shoe and they were designing a 315 00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,240 shoe based on the forefoot and how the rocker angle was at a 316 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,880 very specific point. And we were talking like 1 to 2° 317 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:02,800 of difference. Where it's like, OK, this one's 318 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,720 at 10, this one's at 12, this one's at 14, that one's at 8, 319 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,560 you know, and then like running it through their elites and 320 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:09,800 through different kinds of wear testing. 321 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,000 You mean like, OK, what is the one that we like the most? 322 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,200 Right. And sometimes it's as specific 323 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,000 as that. And sometimes it's just like, is 324 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:17,600 it soft? How is the upper like? 325 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,120 So they have their own like wear testing that they do and they're 326 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,280 different processes that they run these shoes through for 327 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,160 validation. But the short answer is yes, 328 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:33,480 they take feedback and they give it back to you in what is what 329 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,720 you want or what the general consensus wants that they 330 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,960 interpret. But the long answer is this 331 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,320 everything I just said. So it's it's a whole process and 332 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,560 it's an ongoing process, so. Great. 333 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,040 Matt, do you have anything to add there? 334 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:49,880 Yeah, I think what both you said is great. 335 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,920 I think it's, it's a multimodal process that not only varies 336 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,440 within the company, it probably varies on the individual. 337 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,440 And like both you said, it again depends on the goal of the 338 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:00,600 product. So if you're looking for 339 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,440 something more cushion, they have the option to add more 340 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:05,960 stack height. Now that'll vary. 341 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,480 Obviously they're trying to keep it race legal, whatever that 342 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,400 means. And they're there's things that 343 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,640 they're going to be limited by like you know, what's the weight 344 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:14,640 going to be? Is it too much? 345 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,760 What's the geometry like? Is it going to feel smooth? 346 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:18,800 So they're working with multiple areas together. 347 00:17:19,079 --> 00:17:24,119 Stack ID is one piece of that. And I think it's I'm, it may 348 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:26,440 depend sometimes being the goal, they may start with a 349 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,440 measurement, sometimes they may finish with it. 350 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:30,840 So I think it's going to vary depending on, as you both 351 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,080 mentioned, what's the goal of this shoe and what are we trying 352 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,080 to achieve? And we can make things that are 353 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,760 that tall that are far lighter than they've ever been before. 354 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,480 And we have foams and geometries that you can do that with now. 355 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,640 So that's why in the market too is why it's it's driven people. 356 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:47,800 That's what people want. They want seem to the general 357 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,440 public seems to want more so. I think that there's an element 358 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,440 where I wish we could say that every company is testing every 359 00:17:56,440 --> 00:18:00,200 type to see which one is going to be the most optimal for 360 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,480 running economy or for durability or for whatever value 361 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,640 point that somebody's going to put on a shoe. 362 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,680 But that's just not, it's just not possible to cover every 363 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,240 single value point. And in some ways, as David said, 364 00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:16,360 what that ends up coming to market is in part driven by what 365 00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,280 the market wants. And So what I mean by that is if 366 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,880 there is a company that for years has been having their 367 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,920 highest stack shoe at 28mm in the heel and they keep calling 368 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,400 that their maximal option, people are going to look at that 369 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,040 and start to scoff at it. And so if you want to have a 370 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,040 true shoe in that space, you're going to have to change what 371 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,320 your stack is to match the market demand. 372 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,360 And so there is, I wish, I wish it was all driven by altruistic 373 00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,720 things. And, and I shouldn't even put it 374 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,440 opposed to altruism, but like there is some element where the 375 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,600 companies need to need to sell their product and they need to 376 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,480 also give the market what people are asking for. 377 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:00,160 So again, I think there's some beauty in that too, because what 378 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,880 we have seen from an injury prevention standpoint is find 379 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:04,400 the thing that's most comfortable for you. 380 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:08,400 And so if you can have different shoes on the market that are 381 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,640 comfortable, you might be in a good spot. 382 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,160 And with more stack comes some variability in what you can do 383 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,880 with geometry and stiffness and all that kind of stuff. 384 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,040 Let's move on to our next question. 385 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,040 So this next one is, I think an interesting one. 386 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,400 It's from Gustav and he's asking about one of our reviews 387 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,360 specifically, and it was about our ASICS Mega Blast review. 388 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,360 He says hi. I just read the ASICS Mega Blast 389 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:36,000 review and I couldn't help but notice that Nate and Matt don't 390 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,160 seem to agree on if the shoe is stable neutral or not, with Nate 391 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:44,360 classifying it as a true neutral shoe and Mat is a stable 392 00:19:44,360 --> 00:19:46,600 neutral. I usually do well with stable 393 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,240 neutral shoes, and shoes that work for Matt tend to work for 394 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,360 me too. Could you elaborate on why you 395 00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,240 rated the Mega Blast differently with regard to its inherent 396 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,320 stability? And what does that mean for the 397 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,840 whole concept of stable neutral, since it apparently can come 398 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,840 down on how the shoe is perceived by one person or 399 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,560 another? Thanks for everything you do and 400 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,040 keep up the good work. This e-mail was sent, by the 401 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,560 way, like within 24 hours after like Nathan started the review. 402 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,720 He did a phenomenal job. And then I updated it like 403 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,360 several weeks later as I finally got to miles on on the mega 404 00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,120 blast. And yeah, this this e-mail was 405 00:20:19,120 --> 00:20:21,400 like, I literally just put that up like a few minutes ago. 406 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,440 Wow. All right, So Nate, what do you 407 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:24,640 think? I want you to start. 408 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:29,400 Well, I think it kind of starts with our labeling as to why I 409 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,480 put it neutral and why you put it stable neutral. 410 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:37,760 So I can give my my take there. So the when you look at like the 411 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,720 specs of the shoe, some of the things that typically define a 412 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,880 stable neutral shoe are the width of the outsole contact 413 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:49,040 from heel, midfoot and forefoot. And from that standpoint, there 414 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,920 is a lot of width on the platform connecting the shoe to 415 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:57,240 the ground, something else that typically leads to some sort of 416 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,000 stable neutral, some sort of cradling of the foot and having 417 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,320 some side walling or some kind of barricades. 418 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,840 And how much those actually do anything, we don't know. 419 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,480 It's a very much an unknown area, probably less than we 420 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,680 think that they do. Another thing that sometimes 421 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,320 makes something stable neutral is the type of like cutouts in 422 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,920 the middle, maybe that that leads a path of least resistance 423 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,160 and you would fall into that middle zone without pushing your 424 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,960 foot one way or another. And then the other thing that 425 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,960 sometimes leads to stable neutral is the foam properties 426 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,880 itself, something that's a little bit firmer, something 427 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,520 that, yeah, maybe it has some sort of longitudinal plate, one 428 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:36,840 that spans the width of the shoe. 429 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,200 It creates some sort of leveling and rigidity there. 430 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,000 Those are things that typically land into a stable or its lower 431 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:47,640 stack and it doesn't need anything to stabilize it. 432 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,640 So those are typically the things that fall into a stable 433 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,560 neutral category. For me. 434 00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:55,000 There were some of those elements that the Mega Blast 435 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:56,520 had. I would say that the width 436 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,760 contact at the ground definitely had it. 437 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,360 And that for me is pretty much where it ended because there was 438 00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:05,960 not, there were not big side walls on that shoe. 439 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:10,120 They were very, very minimal and there was stiffness of the shoe 440 00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:11,960 just because of how much stack there wasn't. 441 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,280 In fact, I didn't know if there was a plate or not when I first 442 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,400 tested it because I did a blinded review and I even said 443 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,320 like I there could be a plate in this that I just can't see. 444 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,080 There's not a plate. But when I was running in the 445 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,120 shoe, the foam for me though not like squishy soft, it is very 446 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:30,480 bouncy. And so every time I would land, 447 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,400 the shoe would wobble back and forth. 448 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,960 And so I didn't feel like, and especially because I compared it 449 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,520 right next to the Sonic Blast, which I did not get along well 450 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,400 with. But the stability of the Sonic 451 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,920 Blast versus the stability of the Mega Blast were very 452 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,520 different from that wobbly sensation hitting the ground. 453 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,520 And so it was that softness of the foam for me that put it in 454 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,160 the neutral category. What brought you to stable 455 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,280 neutral? It was kind of things that you 456 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,240 mentioned the, the and I, this is a specific thing to me where 457 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,240 I work very well with typically with wider soles. 458 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,520 And the Mega Blast actually has, if you look at it visually, just 459 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,880 a little bit more medial flare than lateral flare. 460 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:09,400 So that's already something that's going to work a little 461 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:11,680 bit better for me. But it's also might be a little 462 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,840 unstable for those that go A-Team bit more lateral, 463 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,640 especially with the bouncy foam, which again, that's, that's 464 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:17,840 going to work even better for me. 465 00:23:18,360 --> 00:23:20,600 The side walls are present. They're pretty minor. 466 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,720 I don't know if there is they're adding it, but it's really the 467 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:26,680 width and the stiffness and the, the, the true litmus test for me 468 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,400 is can I take this on a long run and not feel like I'm starting 469 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,960 to get unstable and have my hips, which are frequently, if 470 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,120 you have a wider shoe that are a wider lasted shoe that is really 471 00:23:38,120 --> 00:23:41,480 soft where my foot will do OK and my hips will just struggle 472 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,080 it, it was absolutely fine. It's been my go to long run shoe 473 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,280 both for easy and up tempo efforts. 474 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,720 And I love it's kind of like what I was hoping a little bit 475 00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,000 the Super blast could do a little bit more of, but the 476 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,640 Super blast is more stable neutral than the mega blast. 477 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:59,920 It's like for me, it's just right without being too stiff. 478 00:23:59,920 --> 00:24:02,080 But I can also understand there are people that need more. 479 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,360 This is not going to be enough. And if you're sensitive to like 480 00:24:04,360 --> 00:24:08,480 really bouncy souls, which I typically do well with, it's 481 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:09,720 it's going to bounce. So yeah. 482 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,360 And this is exactly why we like to have multiple viewers on 483 00:24:13,360 --> 00:24:15,240 reviews is because you're going to get different opinions 484 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,120 because we are actually going to react to the issue differently. 485 00:24:18,120 --> 00:24:20,880 So I think this is awesome if you tend to do well with with 486 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:23,480 meet with stuff that I tend to do well with, yes. 487 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,160 But if you're someone who better follows what Nathan does, I 488 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,120 would go with that. And so having people that you 489 00:24:29,120 --> 00:24:31,320 know, you kind of are aligned with is really important. 490 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,880 And neither one of us are wrong. It's just how our bodies are 491 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,200 reacting to that. I think to one of the points of 492 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:41,160 his question, I think categories of putting a shoe in neutral, 493 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,480 motion control, stability, stable, neutral. 494 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,880 You can categorize a shoe as a stability shoe and it can be 495 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,960 very unstable partially because as what people need for 496 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,080 stability changes as well. So I'm thinking about a shoe 497 00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,640 that both Andrea and Matt are testing right now, which I think 498 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,960 is the hope is that the that's the mock X3, right. 499 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:06,800 So the mock X3 Andrea feels like it's the most unstable shoe in 500 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:11,200 the world because she is feeling unstable laterally, whereas Matt 501 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,920 feels like it's the most stable shoe for him because it's 502 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,680 stabilizing him immediately. So when there are differences in 503 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,000 how we categorize shoes in their function, maybe they're category 504 00:25:23,120 --> 00:25:26,280 in specs on paper might put it as a stable neutral shoe. 505 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,560 But then it does come down to your personal experience if the 506 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,480 shoe is actually stable or not. Even if it's a posted stability 507 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,880 shoe, it can still be unstable for you. 508 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:38,680 I don't know if that distinction makes sense. 509 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000 That makes total sense. It makes me wonder if we need to 510 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,080 be more specific when we say stable neutral. 511 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,240 Like you can have a shoe that like, you know, I would almost 512 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:52,440 argue that the gosh, David, what's the shoe that you held up 513 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,320 with the Puma deviate as the magnify? 514 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:57,520 Yeah, I was going to screw that up. 515 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:02,080 The magnify Nitro three or the Nitro whatever, magnify 3. 516 00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:06,160 There's a lot of lateral flair in that heel and it pushes me 517 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:07,600 in. But I could totally see someone 518 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:11,600 that really needs some like stable neutral, like supination 519 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,080 stabilization that actually might work really well with. 520 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,040 So maybe that's also enough to go, hey, how do we we need to 521 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,360 get a better job of categorizing this to go when we say stable, 522 00:26:21,360 --> 00:26:23,280 what does that mean? Because I think originally we 523 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,200 meant is it keeps you really centered. 524 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,240 Yeah, I think stable, neutral, it's like it's not pushing you 525 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,360 one way or another. Yeah. 526 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:33,640 And so maybe that's that may be my fault because I've kind of 527 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,200 used that going, oh, this is a neutral shoe, but it's working 528 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:38,080 well for me as some of with stability needs. 529 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:42,080 But I think we need to do a better job, especially me of 530 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,440 categorizing this is actually keeping you centered or is it 531 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,840 biased one way? And so maybe the better term 532 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:52,600 might be OK, like the Mega blast might have some lateral bias and 533 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:54,640 maybe stable neutral isn't the best. 534 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,880 So that's that's on me and I definitely have probably not 535 00:26:57,880 --> 00:26:58,840 been using that correctly. I. 536 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,160 Don't think that's on you. I think, I think it's just a 537 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,720 nature of the, the squishiness of of these categories. 538 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:08,680 And I think it's helpful to have had this stable neutral term 539 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:11,720 because of how geometries have changed in the last five to 10 540 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:16,120 years. But it's not, I don't know, it's 541 00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:18,440 not very black and white. It's not very clean. 542 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,440 Yeah, relative to needs. I did. 543 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,240 We did we come up with that or is that a, was that somewhere 544 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,800 else that we pulled that from? I don't know. 545 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,400 I I don't know. I'm not sure. 546 00:27:30,120 --> 00:27:31,440 Yeah. I don't want to take credit for 547 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,880 it, but I think, yeah, it might need some better defining and 548 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,240 and we need to kind of stick with some definitions. 549 00:27:38,360 --> 00:27:39,800 Yeah. So yeah. 550 00:27:40,120 --> 00:27:42,360 That's great. OK. 551 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,400 I have our next question or David, do you have anything to 552 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,640 add about about this topic? Yeah, if the if the mega blast 553 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,320 is quote UN quote truly neutral, I don't know what the magnify 3 554 00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:58,040 is moving forward. OK. 555 00:27:58,960 --> 00:27:59,680 Yeah, all. Right. 556 00:27:59,960 --> 00:28:02,360 Great. OK, let's just keep talking 557 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:03,520 about the Mega Blast for a second. 558 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,920 So this is a question from. Jared yeah, the next 40 559 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,480 questions are all the mega blasts. 560 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,720 I'm just giving just one more. This is what Jared says. 561 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,560 I ran my first half marathon back in November 2024. 562 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,920 Congrats using the neo Vista. Great shoe. 563 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,240 Well I love the shoes feel. I had some discomfort in my left 564 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:24,520 knee eventually. A more experienced runner friend 565 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,120 of mine suggested I switch to a lower drop shoe since I have 566 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:31,520 decent ankle mobility. Once I made that switch which 567 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,960 they use the Topo Spectre 2 and Ultra flow to, my knees have 568 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,240 been pain free. I understand that drop is a 569 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,480 static measurement and you recommend considering the quote 570 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,360 drop feel too. So I'm wondering if you have any 571 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,400 thoughts about the drop feel of the new A6 Mega Blast? 572 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:52,040 I'm really interested in trying that new foam, but not at the 573 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,280 expense of my knees. I didn't notice anything in the 574 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,000 drop feel in your shoe review which is why I'm reaching out 575 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,080 like this. Thanks in advance. 576 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,400 It's 8mm. Yes. 577 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:06,160 On paper. Yeah, I mean, that's a little 578 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,480 bit of gift to the foam. It probably feels closer to a 579 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,200 six to me, like from a static standpoint if I'm measuring it 580 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,400 like, you know, quote UN quote static. 581 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:15,640 And that's the hard thing with a lot of these new shoes with how 582 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:19,080 soft and compliant some of these foams are getting where like 583 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,760 let's say the magnified Nitro three to 10mm drop platform. 584 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:27,880 And although it feels higher up, the foam compresses so far down 585 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,400 that it's like you feel the drop, but at the same time it 586 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,760 transitions almost more like probably a 6 to 8. 587 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,800 Yeah, so here's actually my response to this question. 588 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,360 They're asking about drop, but I I almost think that it's a 589 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:43,240 different factor of the shoe entirely. 590 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,000 Knowing that I don't know anything about this person's 591 00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,400 knee pain and what it actually was and what was going on. 592 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,040 When I think about shoe similarities, Topo Spectre and 593 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,440 Ultra Flow to not only have lower drops, but they also have 594 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,840 more flexible 4 foots and they don't really operate on a 595 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,960 significant rocker. The the spectre a little bit but 596 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:10,800 not not super rigid, nothing like the Neo Vista. 597 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,800 So if I think about rocker profile, which can shift load up 598 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,240 from the ankle, I think the Mega Blast is closer to the Neo Vista 599 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,160 than it is to the Topo Specter and Ultraflow 2, both in drop 600 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,760 and in rocker feel and kind of just like running experience. 601 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,120 The the biggest difference between the Neo Vista and the 602 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,200 Mega Blast in my mind is the softness of the foam. 603 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,200 I think Neo Vista very soft, compliant, kind of squishy, 604 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:42,200 bouncy trampolini, whereas the Mega Blast is like light poppy, 605 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:46,400 quick roll responsive, but they both operate off of that rocker. 606 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:50,560 So I almost think the rocker is more the consideration than the 607 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,480 actual drop. But I agree with you, David, 608 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:54,880 that the drop does this field probably in that kind of 609 00:30:54,880 --> 00:31:00,120 moderate drop 5678 in that realm, you probably lose a 610 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:01,520 little bit from the static measurement. 611 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,520 But Matt, what do you think? Yeah, I'm, I'm going to be very 612 00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:08,320 careful with how I answer this because that's been one of my go 613 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:10,880 to shoes with my Achilles stuff right now, which shouldn't make 614 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,440 sense. But I think it's because my foot 615 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,560 strike has probably changed to avoid because I, I really don't 616 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,080 have a lot of dorsiflexion right now and I've felt my gait 617 00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,960 changed to avoid needing it as much as I'm getting up more of 618 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,240 my forefoot. So I'm likely loading a shoe in 619 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,120 a way that is making it easier for me to tolerate. 620 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:31,000 So I'm probably loading the forefoot a lot more than the 621 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,440 heel. So again, my answer is probably 622 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,600 not good because I'm adjusting around it, but I totally agree 623 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:39,960 that I'm actually hesitating to suggest it. 624 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,080 Even with a, if you like our heel striker and you can load 625 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,040 that foam. It's a very stiff shoe and a lot 626 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,560 of what gets it through a lot of us probably helped me too is the 627 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,120 fact that it is rockered. Initially though, it's pretty 628 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,280 stiff. And Nate's exact thing was like, 629 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,440 is there a plate in here? Like I had read the things and 630 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,400 I'm like, OK, there's no plate, but it's exactly the same thing 631 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:04,640 as Super Blast, where honestly, I think the original Super 632 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,320 Blast, yeah, my knee actually bothered me just walking in the 633 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,000 original Super Blast. It took me like walking for in a 634 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,880 week to break it in. It was so stiff. 635 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,520 I'm like, there's no way this is unplated. 636 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,760 I'm not saying you should be that ASICS has done a lot better 637 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,280 with the geometry or my body suggested one of the two. 638 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,680 But yeah, I would agree that it's probably more the geometry 639 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,360 of the setup compared to the other two that you're talking 640 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,200 about. And so again, drop isn't the 641 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,720 only factor. It can influence the stuff, but 642 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,240 also really, rocker geometries are going to shift load up away 643 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:41,400 from the ankle anyway. So I think that's a fact you may 644 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,280 have to pay attention to. And that's probably not the best 645 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,400 shoe to consider for this. So I would be hesitant to 646 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,240 suggest the Mega Blasts. In fact, I think Nate's right. 647 00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,520 That and David's going to be like the Vista. 648 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,240 So yeah. Great. 649 00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:56,880 Well, let's move on to our next question. 650 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,520 This is from Andrew who's asking about stability options. 651 00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:03,880 This is what he says. Working on finding a new running 652 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,280 shoe with my physical therapist as I come back from a hip back 653 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,000 injury that causes sciatica pain in the left glute. 654 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,880 I generally run in Saucony neutral shoes but I'm 655 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,680 transitioning to stability but moderate as stability tends to 656 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,680 hurt my knees and arches due to hip issues. 657 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,480 Would you would you suggest the guide Hurricane 25 or The 658 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,880 Tempest Hurricane 24? Price does look like a very good 659 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,800 option as well. I'm sticking to the Soccone 660 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:38,720 family recently as they fit my feet the best so. 661 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,720 What I like? Can I say something that I like 662 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,560 about this question? And I don't know exactly how 663 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,000 these conversations are going, but if I was a physical 664 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,880 therapist working with a patient and they love to run, but I 665 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:54,400 didn't know that much about shoes, I would love to 666 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,360 collaborate with somebody who did know a ton about shoes, but 667 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,760 that I could add in my my expertise about what I think the 668 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,880 person needs. So what I'm getting from this 669 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,000 question is that their PT thinks that they would benefit from 670 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:08,199 some sort of structure and stability in the shoe. 671 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,639 And so now it's like, OK, now what? 672 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,880 What part, what type, what kind? Because there's a bunch of them. 673 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,040 So I like this question. That's just a quick aside. 674 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,159 And I just like the approach that this person in the PT seem 675 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,840 to be taking on it. So they're basically asking 676 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,199 guide Hurricane 25 or Tempest. They've got this sciatica pain 677 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,480 in the left glute, but they have a history of knee pain with a 678 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,480 lot of structured stability shoes. 679 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,920 Which is good because the three that they've listed are not that 680 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,440 highly structured. Even the guy. 681 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:41,520 The guy it's probably one of the more sorry, the least. 682 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,840 Yeah, that's like borderline stable neutral kind of shoe, 683 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,960 even though solicitous stability shoe because it's much more 684 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,960 centered and that's actually how they intended it. 685 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,000 It is very rockered. So my only has. 686 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,240 Like which neutral shoes from Saucony? 687 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:02,760 Yeah, my hesitancy with like low back hip stuff is it again, the 688 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,520 more rockered the profile, the softer the shoe, the more likely 689 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,920 you are to have like tensioning and stuff and and redistribution 690 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,200 of forces away from the foot and ankle and up higher. 691 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,320 Not necessarily to the spine always, but you know, that's in 692 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000 theory that's what we're talking about. 693 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:24,760 Yeah. I think my vote would honestly 694 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,680 be for the guide because it doesn't have the Super foam. 695 00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:31,400 It's not, there's anything wrong with that. 696 00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,480 But inherently when you add a softer foam, well, The Tempest 697 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:36,160 might be better because that's not soft at all. 698 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,480 In my opinion, the the guide might be the best because it's 699 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,720 going to keep you centered. It's not going to bias you One 700 00:35:42,720 --> 00:35:44,480 Direction. Is it rockered? 701 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,680 Yes, but it breaks in pretty quick and there's some 702 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,600 flexibility in there. That would be the one that in my 703 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,280 what? I just said, yeah, I think 704 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:53,760 there's definitely some flexibility. 705 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:58,040 Yeah, I think that one's going to be the least controlling and 706 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:03,840 the most guided of the group. I think the guy 24 was nice in 707 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,920 theory. It didn't work that well for me. 708 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,360 I didn't feel like it was that stable, but I felt like it was 709 00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:11,120 softer and I kind of struggle with that. 710 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,000 And it's pretty heavy too. You seem to like, yeah, I'm 711 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:16,960 sorry, what did I just. Say you said got 24 but you. 712 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:19,120 Meant I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 713 00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:23,240 Seem consistent? Yeah, the guy 24 like 6 years 714 00:36:23,240 --> 00:36:25,800 from now. Futures thinking here. 715 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:27,960 Yeah, sorry. Yeah, I know. 716 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:28,560 You're right. I'm sorry. 717 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,160 The Hurricane 24 did not work well for me. 718 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,600 The Hurricane 25 was interesting, but also really 719 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,800 soft. And I my hips, I struggle with 720 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,640 that shoe. The Tempest is fine. 721 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,320 It The Tempest, I'm assuming they're talking about Tempest 2. 722 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,560 It's just I I'm really struggling with that shoe for 723 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:45,320 some reason. I'm not sure if I'm not reacting 724 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,800 well and it's actually soft and I'm feeling it firm up or if 725 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,560 it's actually firm. So I guess my order would 726 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:57,360 probably be guide, Tempest, hurricane with guide being 727 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,560 probably the best option but also being open and knowing that 728 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,640 people respond differently. So I probably my top 2 would be 729 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,360 guide and Tempest and seeing if you could try them on and then 730 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,280 seeing how you actually respond. But that's me. 731 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,640 What do you 2 think? Yeah, I mean, my, my answer is 732 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:18,720 the same on the order of things. I would love to know like which 733 00:37:18,720 --> 00:37:22,840 shoes they're running in, right, Because the Triumph uses power 734 00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:28,280 on PB and the Ride uses power on Plus, which are both in theory 735 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,800 softer than power run that you would get in the guide. 736 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,600 But I feel like the end also like the difference between like 737 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,320 the ride has some flexibility, Triumphs a little bit stiffer 738 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,200 and the rocker profiles the similar. 739 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,560 They act differently because of the stack difference. 740 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:46,760 That's what makes it a little tricky. 741 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,560 It's hard when I don't know what neutral shoes they're running 742 00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,640 in. But if I'm playing it safe, the 743 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,920 guide is kind of the safer of the options, like for all the 744 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,440 reasons that you said. So I'd kind of lean that 745 00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,040 direction. If you already know you like the 746 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:03,880 Saucony fit, you can give it a try. 747 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,000 Try them on. Tempest kind of follows a 748 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,440 similar light where they kind of focus more on the guidance. 749 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:12,040 I didn't have The Tempest too, so I didn't get to try that one. 750 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,640 But just kind of going based on the philosophical ideas of the 751 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,280 first lineage of it kind of goes in line with what you're looking 752 00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,280 there with the hurricane kind of being the more stable of the 753 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,080 bunch and the most going on of the bunch. 754 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,200 I feel like that's the wild card of the three. 755 00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,360 So I think you can have a little bit more expectation of like 756 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:34,280 what you're going to feel with the guide and kind of how you 757 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,240 might respond. It's the safest option I would 758 00:38:36,240 --> 00:38:40,680 think. Just to throw a different, 759 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:45,960 slightly different opinion out there, as somebody who has also 760 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:49,560 has a history of getting lateral knee pain with stability shoes, 761 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,400 I've gotten that with the new structure of the Guide, but I 762 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,920 haven't gotten that with The Tempest. 763 00:38:55,720 --> 00:38:58,960 The Guide operates its stability elements off of more soul 764 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,200 flaring, whereas The Tempest has that kind of dual density 765 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,920 midsole with a little bit of basically a post, but it's 766 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:07,440 pretty mild. I could do just fine in The 767 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,640 Tempest because the platform wasn't super flared one way or 768 00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:12,960 another, whereas the flaring on the guide got me. 769 00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:14,600 So I think it's probably one of those. 770 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,360 Go out and try it, go run it and see which one feels. 771 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,040 If it's pushing you one way or another, and if your knee pain 772 00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,120 isn't anything like mine with stability issues, then throw 773 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,600 this idea out. But for me, I could. 774 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:27,160 I got tons of miles in The Tempest. 775 00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:28,680 I couldn't get any miles in the guide. 776 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,360 The guide What? You'll said as well, right? 777 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,120 Yeah, it's an audio wedge. Yeah, even though it's not like 778 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,680 a hard post. Yeah, exactly. 779 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,480 So I think it's just a you just got to try them and I and I 780 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,720 think that those are probably the two safest options. 781 00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:47,920 Also, if your Saucony stable shoes have been the ride and the 782 00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:52,360 Triumph, this Endorphin speed, not the Triumph. 783 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,600 If if it's only been the speed and you haven't tried the 784 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,760 Triumph 22, I think the Triumph 22 could be a solid option too, 785 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:05,080 because that has a relatively structured shoe, because it's a 786 00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,960 firm power on PB. It's a really wide platform. 787 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,520 I think truly stable, neutral, kind of circling back to that 788 00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,360 conversation, I. That could be another option if 789 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,280 you haven't been on that shoe platform. 790 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,680 And I haven't tried the 23, so I can't speak to that when it 791 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:24,760 comes to the Triumph, but the 22 I think could be something to 792 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:28,960 think about. Yeah, 2323 got a quite a bit 793 00:40:29,720 --> 00:40:32,480 more responsive, which could be good or bad. 794 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,840 So there's a lot more bounce in the foam rather rather than feel 795 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,720 more more compliant in the prior version. 796 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,120 Yeah, that's a good idea. Cool. 797 00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:44,360 All right, we have one. We have one more question for 798 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:48,600 the night and I, I'm just going to read it verbatim. 799 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:53,680 So this is just the question. This is from Moose on the Loose 800 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:55,360 asks. No, it's on the loose. 801 00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:57,880 Yes, not that he confused the goose. 802 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,120 The goose was on the loose today. 803 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,040 By the way, did you see the race? 804 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:06,560 No, I didn't see, I did not. The The goose was indeed on the 805 00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:11,200 loose today, New York City. Oh, how'd it go? 806 00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,840 The Mile. How'd it go? 807 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,240 He won 348. Hail. 808 00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:18,200 All right, here we go. On the road. 809 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,080 Moose on the loose asks this or says this. 810 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,560 Make heel striking sexy again, please. 811 00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:29,120 Vanity run fluencers are increasingly smiting heel 812 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:32,480 strikers lately. Well, more in a subtle way than 813 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,760 actually whacking around with the holier than thou selfie 814 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:37,880 stick. Sorry. 815 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,960 Cooler than thou selfie stick. I like that. 816 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,000 But it kind of comes out like this, I said. 817 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:46,800 But all of this great racing shoe except for heel strikers. 818 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,480 Us 4 foot strikers could use this super shoe. 819 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:54,640 However, heel strikers and more foot 4 foot strike fetish 820 00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:58,520 nonsense is starting to become the new pronate pronation is bad 821 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,400 thing. Sorry I'm having a hard time 822 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,200 reading through this. I hope everyone's following and 823 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:08,000 and this flat hoofed heel striking moose with no issues 824 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,600 running in soft racing shoes has had it. 825 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,680 Heel strikers are doing fine and most people are lured to the 826 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:18,000 forbidden fruit that is heel striking later in a race anyway. 827 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,680 It's a long distance between an Instagram vanity reel and the 828 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,120 last five miles in a marathon, and nasty things can happen 829 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:28,280 whenever your foot is landing when you're running form starts 830 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,840 to meltdown and descends into the Flying Spaghetti Monster. 831 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,640 Super racing shoes are made with elite runners in mind anyway, 832 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,120 and they are so strong they can manage these wobbly soft foams. 833 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,560 Heck, they can probably even manage waterbed mattresses 834 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,680 strapped to their feet. So can heel strikers. 835 00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,720 Heel strikers feel OK again, thanks a concerned moose. 836 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,640 So I. Want to meet you concerned, 837 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:54,960 Moose. Yes. 838 00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:57,120 I I know very well. Poetic. 839 00:42:57,280 --> 00:42:58,600 Very well written. Concerned Moose. 840 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,040 That'd be hilarious. And just my apologies for how 841 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,520 poorly I was able to deliver the message that you gave because 842 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:09,200 there was so much heart in your messaging and I felt like I 843 00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,960 failed to deliver. So shame on me. 844 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,800 And what do y'all think about this? 845 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,560 This is more of like a, an exposition in thoughts. 846 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,360 And what's your reaction, Matt? Why don't you start? 847 00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:23,520 David, why don't you go? Because I've written articles 848 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,680 for Runners World on this exact topic. 849 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,840 Or I feel striking is OK but David go first before I launch 850 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,000 into my thing. Yeah, yeah. 851 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,480 I mean, I first saw laid off. I think Nate needs to spend more 852 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,960 time on like the dark side of YouTube, you know, deep in the 853 00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:39,560 pits of Instagram Reels, Tik Toks. 854 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:44,320 Like we got to get him a little the more cultured, but moving 855 00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,960 forward from that. Yeah. 856 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,920 Well, actually I thought there was a pretty. 857 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:50,800 Speaking of Instagram reels, Oh gosh. 858 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,400 Do you guys follow Rosner performance? 859 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,280 Jonah, the sports scientist guy? Oh yeah. 860 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:01,680 He, he actually put up a pretty good one the other day talking 861 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:04,080 about some of the data coming out on heel strikers and that 862 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:05,760 the majority of elites are heel strikers, right? 863 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,920 And we know this, but a lot of people feel like they kind of 864 00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:12,040 fantasize this, like, Oh no, if you're fast, you strike on the 865 00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,640 forefoot, which is just simply not true across pretty much all 866 00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,680 the distances just about. And that includes guys like 867 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:22,560 Kipchoga and Bikele and like, you know, some studs on this 868 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:24,280 planet and they are heel strikers. 869 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,760 And so when they design these shoes, they're designing it to 870 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,560 be economic for the paces and the demands that those runners 871 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,800 are putting them on, not necessarily for four foot 872 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,920 striking. And so that's kind of just a 873 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:39,520 little side tangent there. But yeah, heel strikers are fine 874 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:40,840 running the shoes that are comfortable. 875 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,120 Try them on. If you like them, roll with it. 876 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,160 There is nothing wrong with heel striking. 877 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,880 I heel strike, heel strikes, Klein really heel strikes. 878 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,200 So. So with that, I will let Klein 879 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,120 continue. So this has been going on for 880 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,960 years where it's like this and even beforehand there's actually 881 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,480 a point where ever all like run coaches were trying to get 882 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,600 everybody heel strike because it's believe more economical. 883 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,800 And then the barefoot stuff came along like everyone needs to get 884 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:12,120 up on their forefoot and people are are only this is the common 885 00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,240 fallacy. This is what it's so easy to do 886 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:17,280 on social media is going let me distill all running down to a 887 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,280 single thing and this is the make or break thing. 888 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,240 And I say this is somebody who before PT school totally did 889 00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:25,080 this and was like 4 foot striking has to be it. 890 00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,080 Human movement variability is incredible. 891 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,400 And I will say a lot of the people that claim to be 4 foot 892 00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,760 strikers, there's actually evidence that you actually can't 893 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,000 tell what you're doing. People are very, very, very bad 894 00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,200 at reporting what they're actually doing. 895 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:41,120 And there's actually research on this topic. 896 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,880 I. Think that study had about 50% 897 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:45,680 accuracy for recreational runners. 898 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:47,560 Yeah, I could be wrong, but I think it was. 899 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:48,880 I think it was. Lower than that. 900 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,080 Less than 50% of people were right about whether they were 4 901 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:55,760 foot or rear foot strikers. Most people don't know. 902 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,040 Yeah, I will argue and this is not necessarily an evidence 903 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:04,240 based that your landing point can either be a actually no, I'm 904 00:46:04,240 --> 00:46:07,400 going to stand by what I'm going to say can either be initiated 905 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,240 or a result by other things. So it can either be caused of 906 00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:11,840 the foot and ankle or cause higher up. 907 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:15,280 It's a multi factorial thing. And actually, if you want the 908 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,240 watch the elite, most runners, the people that are really good 909 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:21,560 at being economical, their foot strike will change. 910 00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,280 If you watch them throughout a race, a lot of people will maybe 911 00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,440 be a little bit more farther forward as they're starting out 912 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:28,240 pretty quick. And then it will adjust 913 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:29,640 throughout the, you know, they'll typically get a little 914 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,680 farther back. There's people who will switch 915 00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:35,000 back and forth among there's a couple case studies of the most 916 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,400 elite people just going as if they fatigue, they switch. 917 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:40,160 And there's one thing this muscle group, this group of 918 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,640 muscles that are associated with that landing pattern, they'll 919 00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:44,160 switch again. And that may they may be 920 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:48,400 switching for other reasons, but one isn't better than the other. 921 00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:50,320 One is not more economical than the other. 922 00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,400 There's actually been some recent research found, yeah, 923 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,400 it's basically the same, that there's a lot more important 924 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,120 factors, injury risks or injury rates between the two of them 925 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,320 are exactly the same. The types of injuries are going 926 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,440 to be different because you're loading different tissue, 927 00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:09,480 although not always. And as David said, like when you 928 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,240 are designing at least current concepts now and maybe a 929 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,480 footwear developer can correct me, but with all the people that 930 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,960 I've talked to recently, they're not necessarily worried about 931 00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,640 foot strike. They're worried with, you know, 932 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,520 the running economy, right? What's the oxygen usage, right? 933 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,520 What, how does fatigue play into this? 934 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,960 All these other factors like looking bio mechanics doesn't 935 00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,520 tell you the full story. And I say that as someone with a 936 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:35,560 PhD in bio mechanics that that people move in interesting ways 937 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:38,800 that are economical for them. And honestly, when you start 938 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:41,160 trying to change things initially, that's when you have 939 00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,280 a nightmare. The there's evidence that if you 940 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,680 want to really change somebody's running bio mechanics, it takes 941 00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,320 about nine months to make a permanent change and you ruin 942 00:47:49,720 --> 00:47:53,640 they're running economy for the first like maybe half or 75% of 943 00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,080 that and you may not get back where they were right. 944 00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,760 So heel striking is fine more than 70 to 80% of the pot, both 945 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,600 the recreational and elite population heel strike. 946 00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,240 There's a lot more other things that you need to focus on, 947 00:48:07,240 --> 00:48:09,800 right, like your overall training, your strength, your 948 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,800 ability to tolerate load, your foot strike is often going to be 949 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,680 result of a lot of those other things. 950 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,360 And why you choose that we might know, we might not, but saying 951 00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:21,000 everybody needs to do that is actually how how everybody needs 952 00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,360 to heel strike or 4 foot strike. Trying to say this is how you 953 00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:26,320 need to adjust your foot strike is how you hurt people. 954 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,760 Like unless there's a medical reason to do this and you've 955 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,960 exhausted all other, like I almost never change this. 956 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,520 This is like a I've literally run out of everything else. 957 00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,440 There's nothing else we can do. Let's try this and see what 958 00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,800 happens. Like there's so many other 959 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,920 better things to focus on, but those things aren't sexy, right? 960 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:46,920 Strength training for runners isn't sexy. 961 00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,320 Sleep isn't sexy. Getting adequate and not 962 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:54,600 overcomplicating it isn't sexy. But you know, for social media, 963 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,320 you got to you create divide and you create, what's the term I'm 964 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,120 looking for, like sensationalism. 965 00:49:00,720 --> 00:49:03,280 And that's what, yeah, that's what gets people going. 966 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,120 But honestly, the, the research and biomechanics and all the 967 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:11,320 clinicians, like, this is old. This has been going on for years 968 00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:17,040 and it's it's not new. Yep, I have one thing to add 969 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:22,720 that's not that important. IA 100% agree with everything 970 00:49:22,720 --> 00:49:24,200 that you said. In fact, I spoke with the 971 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,120 students yesterday. I showed them at the beginning 972 00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:29,440 of the semester. I show a few different reels of 973 00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,640 people making really compelling arguments about things related 974 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:37,600 to health and fitness. And then I say like where all 975 00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:40,320 the research is that actually that's just wrong and they're 976 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,600 just trying to sell you a product. 977 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:46,000 And so I want to because there's so much access to information 978 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:50,320 right now and especially as blossoming healthcare providers, 979 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,640 they need to be extremely critical of how they learn and 980 00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:54,120 what the sources are that they learn from. 981 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:56,920 So that was that was that's the point of that activity. 982 00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,480 One of them is about four foot striking. 983 00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:03,200 They go on this long expose about why you need a four foot 984 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:06,400 strike and I basically told them all the evidence in the contrary 985 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:10,640 and how there's different things that happened with each and I'm 986 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,800 going to, I'll go ahead. No, I was going to say, I think 987 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,600 I'm glad that you brought that up because even amongst the most 988 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,280 objective, there is still going to be bias across. 989 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,400 So like even when you look deep into the researchers, like 990 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,360 researchers have their own niche for a reason, right? 991 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:26,560 They're interested in a specific thing, a specific variable. 992 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,120 How can we modify that? And they get so deep into some 993 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,920 of those things that like sometimes that outer world does 994 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,160 get a little bit missed. And so I think it is good to 995 00:50:36,240 --> 00:50:40,040 kind of exercise some, I don't know, take it with a grain of 996 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:44,000 salt, but also like read it, observe it, and then make your 997 00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,320 own educated decision based on a variety of different sources 998 00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:51,080 when you are looking at different kinds of content and, 999 00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:55,120 or research and, or stuff coming out that you're reading or 1000 00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,000 seeing or watching or experiencing. 1001 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:02,120 Right, the one shoe I was going to bring up that I think is one 1002 00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:03,680 of those that if you. Say Mega Blast. 1003 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:09,680 No, I'm not going to say Mega Blast, but I am going to say if 1004 00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,080 there's a shoe that may not work for as many Rufus strikers, it'd 1005 00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:19,320 be the Mizuno Wave Rebellion Pro because of how extreme the the 1006 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,280 bevel is on that thing and how far it comes up. 1007 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,480 At the same time, the other reality is that not all rear 1008 00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,880 foot strikers are created equal. Like there are some that land 1009 00:51:28,880 --> 00:51:32,000 way far back and there are some that like grace it and move 1010 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,240 forward. How you load that area changes. 1011 00:51:35,240 --> 00:51:37,800 So your shoe is the shoe that's going to work for you is going 1012 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,000 to be the one that feels good. So go running on, don't tell us, 1013 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,800 Don't let someone tell you that it's not going to work for you 1014 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,000 because of how you strike. It didn't work for them because 1015 00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,160 of how they strike. Like there are shoes wave 1016 00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:50,880 belling pro that for me as a rear foot striker doesn't work. 1017 00:51:51,240 --> 00:51:54,600 I can see why it may not work for other people who run like me 1018 00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,160 or that land even further back. And I could also be wrong. 1019 00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,000 So you just got to go run in it. Don't let don't let someone tell 1020 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,960 you you can't run in something. You be you. 1021 00:52:05,240 --> 00:52:09,200 I will also add to that as as emphasizing Nathan's point even 1022 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:12,720 more that the actual angle, the foot of how it lands is called 1023 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,360 the inclination angle. And like saying somebody heel 1024 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:18,360 strikes or four, that doesn't actually tell us that much. 1025 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,720 Like it doesn't tell us the angle, that kind of stuff. 1026 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:24,600 So for me, my inclination inclination angle can sometimes 1027 00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,560 be really low. So the Rebellion Pro actually 1028 00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,920 works decently for me because right, and this is the Rebellion 1029 00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:34,200 Flash, but right where that pivot is, it's like right where 1030 00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,200 I land. So I actually can bounce it. 1031 00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,280 I bounce through that. So it actually works really well 1032 00:52:39,280 --> 00:52:43,040 for me, even though Nate and I are both heel strikers and yet a 1033 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,200 shoe still works completely differently for us. 1034 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,400 So I think there's a lot of factors. 1035 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,200 Because yeah. There's a lot of good things 1036 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:51,720 going. On for me, yeah, I landed right 1037 00:52:51,720 --> 00:52:53,280 on it. And then they changed that angle 1038 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,880 a little bit in two and three, and I didn't do as well with two 1039 00:52:55,880 --> 00:52:59,440 and three, but I loved one. Yeah, I did too. 1040 00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:01,240 And so you don't need to complicate it. 1041 00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:04,040 Life is actually pretty simple like you need to train 1042 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,040 appropriately and you stay healthy and you need to find 1043 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,120 something that fits well for your feet and know that while we 1044 00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:13,400 are trying to help you with that and provide reviews, you should 1045 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:17,280 not even take our words 1000% you. 1046 00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,720 This is we are here for guidance, but ultimately you 1047 00:53:20,720 --> 00:53:23,960 have to learn what works for you because you are an individual. 1048 00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,400 You're an end of one. As we say in research, you got 1049 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,560 to be able to figure out take. We're here to help educate you 1050 00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:33,080 so that you can make better educated guesses for yourself. 1051 00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,520 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you everyone for joining 1052 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,600 us for this episode. If you have more questions for 1053 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,640 us, please feel free to e-mail us at doctorsrunning@gmail.com. 1054 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,400 We don't get to everything, but we love to be able to engage 1055 00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,480 with these questions as they come up here so that we can have 1056 00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,200 these conversations and hopefully talk about things that 1057 00:53:56,240 --> 00:53:57,960 end up helping you in the future. 1058 00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:00,920 So thank you again for joining us for this episode. 1059 00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,240 And Matt has one more thing to say. 1060 00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:09,120 Kayano, Kayano. Still, good night everybody.