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Hello, everybody, and welcome to
the Doctors of Running podcast, 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet. 
Today at the roundtable, we have

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the founder of Doctors of 
Running, Dr. Matthew Klein. 

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We have David Salas and myself. 
I'm Nathan Brown. 

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We are excited to be talking 
together through a mailbag 

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episode, which are just some of 
our favorites because it's our 

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biggest way that we get to 
interact with what all the 

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people who've been on this 
journey with us have been 

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wanting to talk about. 
But before that, we want to 

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thank our favorite apparel 
company, Rabbit Apparel. 

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They are the presenting sponsor 
of this podcast. 

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We have loved working with them,
and they've got great stuff that

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you could use in your summer. 
But now as we're starting to 

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transition toward the fall 
seasons, they have a lot of 

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great stuff that can keep you 
comfortable at whatever 

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temperatures start to get. 
I know we're starting to have 

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some cooler mornings. 
I'm still in t-shirt weather, 

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but it's coming about. 
And I think their shorts are 

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awesome. 
And they've been coming out with

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some longer short options that 
I've appreciated, like some 

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seven inch stuff that I've been 
able to use for like a ton of 

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daily wear and running. 
So great stuff from them. 

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If you are wanting to use a code
to get 10% off your first order 

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in August, you can use our code 
AUGDOR10 and that'll get you 10%

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off your first order. 
Shout out to Kofusi, by the way,

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for rocking the long sleeve DOR 
version in one of his reviews. 

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It was really exciting to see 
that. 

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Yeah, that's super nice of him. 
Yeah, finally got to meet him at

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an ultra event that I just got 
back from and it was, yeah, in 

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person for the first time and 
was really, really awesome human

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being. 
Have you guys... 

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Shout out, Kofusi. 
Oh, yeah, shout out, Mike 

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Kofusi. have you guys tried the 
high country shorts I have a 

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pair but if you like 7 inch they
might be a little long on well 

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they might be a little short 
they're kind of like I think 

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they might be 7 I don't know but
they feel 5S probably that 5 to 

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7 range where it's not really 
meant it's more for like hiking 

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you know or like active It's not
like a running short. 

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I mean, you could run in them, 
but I just wear them for 

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lifestyle. 
You know, it's like khaki 

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shorts, you know, they have more
pockets and stuff. 

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Yeah. 
They're more like wearable for 

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daily stuff and you can pack in 
them and stuff. 

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They're good. 
I like them a lot. 

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Yeah. 
And they're really good. 

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Like it's sweat resistant stuff,
especially with it being a 

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little bit warmer right now over
here. 

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Like it's yeah, it's been good 
to wear. 

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Cool. 
Nice. 

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That's fantastic. 
Well, we're going to jump in for

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our In For Testing segment. 
That's where we talk about the 

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stuff that we have had on our 
feet that we've been testing or 

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different apparel that we have 
been wearing. 

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So what have y'all been testing 
out lately? 

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I'll start out. 
I don't actually have that much.

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I'll just do an update because 
by the time this comes up, I 

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will finally get my review done.
But I still have the Diodora 

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Corsa, which I am still really 
loving. 

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This is a really big surprise. 
Great price point at $155. 

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The review is going to be great.
I've been a little critical of 

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Diodora just for their price 
points and then fit, function, 

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and I feel like they just really
finally hit it right on the nose

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with the shoe. 
Midsole cushioning is great. 

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It's got some nice softness 
without being mushy, although 

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that is changing a teeny bit as 
I get more miles on it. 

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I'm close to 100, actually, on 
this thing. 

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And fit is classic Diodoro. 
It's a little bit more snug, but

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then it opens up. 
It's snug in the forefoot. 

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The midfoot heel, there's a 
little bit more room. 

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Correct me if I'm wrong. 
But forefoot's a little bit 

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snug. 
That opens up really nicely. 

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And I've just, for $155, it's 
got the style durability that I 

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would hope for. 
This is my left shoe, almost 100

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miles, doing great. 
And it's just been a great ride.

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It's been one of the first 
Deodoros that I have continued 

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to reach for because I'm like, I
actually love this shoe. 

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The only thing I will say is as 
I'm breaking it a little bit 

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more, I was surprised that it 
was weirdly it's not stable 

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neutral but it was more stable 
than i was expecting as it is 

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breaking and it is getting a 
little bit softer and just a 

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teeny bit less stable for me not
that i'm i'm not running in it 

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but just know the midsole foam 
is on the softer end and breaks 

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in that way so good job deodora 
i'm i am really impressed and 

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i'm excited to see you keep this
up i've really enjoyed this shoe

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as well a few things i would add
slash questions for you matt but

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i agree with you about the fit 
in terms of being more narrow 

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through the toe box, 
particularly as you get further 

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out, the taper down around the 
kind of metatarsals and then 

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even into the toes is pretty 
noticeable. 

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And the type of upper that it 
is, it's not very accommodating.

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It's a more rigid upper. 
So it might loosen a bit over 

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time, especially as you start to
like take out some of the foam, 

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like you kind of get a little 
more space from that break-in 

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period, but it's a little bit 
more snug and it doesn't stretch

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out too much. 
What I think they nailed though,

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from a fit standpoint, is the 
midfoot back to the heel. 

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I love the tongue. 
If you've been around here, I'm 

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kind of a tongue snob. 
And the tongue here has the 

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perfect amount of padding for a 
trainer. 

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It's not overstuffed where it 
like makes the shoe fit awkward 

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or you can't really sit into the
heel, but it's not so thin that 

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the laces bite into you. 
They found the sweet spot and I 

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really, really like the fit in 
the lockdown through the 

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midfoot. 
The other design element that I 

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noticed about the shoe, they 
have a pretty rigid heel counter

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but they really dig out the 
posterior aspect it seems and i 

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was mostly curious for you matt 
from uh achilles irritation for 

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people who get irritated who 
have a haggland deformity how 

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did that element work for you 
that from the haggland deformity

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component was actually pretty 
good it's just one of those 

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shoes that can actually take a 
little pressure off there it's 

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still stiff so be careful but 
that roundedness is good i do 

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wish they had a little bit more 
of a notch in for the Achilles 

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because I'm a lot of at the top 
but it hasn't bothered me that 

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much which has been really nice 
I'm just getting over uh another

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flare again and people have 
heard me say this I did 

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something stupid and totally 
deserved it but it had another 

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flare up and it's calmed down 
pretty quick and this is a great

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shoe to have just the upper 
super there's a good amount of 

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padding back there and I think 
some of that roundness has taken

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pressure off it's still not a 
show I would fully suggest for 

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people that have Haglund 
irritations. 

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However, the drop feels much 
higher than the 8 millimeter 

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drop. 
It feels closer to like 10, 

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maybe 11 to me. 
Even those are great heel bevel 

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here. 
Like the best one I think 

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D'Ordor has ever done. 
It was just right. 

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Transitioned super well. 
It wasn't clunky. 

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It feels a little higher to me 
than 8. 

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Although, of course, that's 
changing now that the midsole 

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softening and i'll say my run 
yesterday in it felt i was like 

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oh yeah this is starting to feel
a little bit more like eight and

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i'm not sure why that is because
it's not you know firm but you 

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know i i think this is the best 
deodora shoe i've tested um it 

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uses the anima n2 midsole which 
is a super critical eva but i i 

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think it feels really nice i 
think in terms of comp shoes for

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me the first one that came into 
my mind was the new balance 

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rebel version five i think that 
it had some of that a little bit

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more softness in the midsole you
still have yeah there's a little

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bit less flex through the 
forefoot in this shoe in 

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comparison to the rebel but i 
feel like the foam felt kind of 

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similar where it was softer yeah
a little bit of pop i think you 

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could go i don't know y'all have
more miles in it than me i feel 

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like this one has a little bit 
more responsiveness than the 

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rebel does especially the newer 
versions of the rebel yeah um 

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and the stiffness allowed me to 
like kind of like rhythmic a 

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little bit more but that was a 
comp shoe that i thought about 

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david you've been tested it too 
rebel's definitely a great i 

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think it's closer to the new 
balance ellipse than it is the 

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rebel personally i think it's 
kind of a soft like slightly 

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bouncy trainer that just falls 
into rhythm but it can pick up 

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the pace if you want it to um 
where the rebel to me has always

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felt a little bit more like, I 
guess you could say rebellious. 

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Like it feels like I could do 
something with it. 

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Like it almost wants to, where I
don't know, but I've really 

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liked it too. 
I think the ride on this is 

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great. 
I think the geometry is good. 

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The early stage rocker in that 
forefoot, I think is noticeable.

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And maybe that's why the drop 
feels higher. 

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I don't know. 
To me, it doesn't feel higher. 

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It feels if anything closer to a
six than an eight, but it 

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doesn't feel like, I don't know.
It doesn't feel like a zero. 

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Like I definitely can feel the 
drop in there. 

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The heel is very structured. 
I feel like they did a good job 

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with the lock down there. 
One thing like I did have an 

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issue with in this shoe, not bad
enough, you know, to be 

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problematic, but something 
that's noticeable was actually 

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the way the midfoot locks down. 
And it has the gusseted tongue, 

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but I think some of it has to do
with the upper material and also

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this really thick overlay that 
comes along the lateral side 

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where I could feel it pressing 
into like my fifth met a little 

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bit on the outside like on the 
lateral side and maybe i'm just 

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lacing it down too tight i don't
know but i've had it every time 

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i've worn it so far and i don't 
have that many miles in it but 

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i've worn it three times 
probably you know and like for 

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decent lengths of time and it's 
something that i do notice but 

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other than that it's been great 
i mean this would be like 

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potential i don't know one of 
the top five trainers probably 

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released this year at that price
point especially especially at 

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the price So I think it's 
definitely a really solid option

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and I think it deserves its 
place in the conversations. 

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And we've been seeing that 
online. 

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I feel like a lot of people have
been excited about this shoe. 

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And yeah, I think Diodora did a 
great job with this one. 

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I was a big fan of the Cellula 
too. 

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And I'm a big fan of this one. 
The Cellula. 

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I was very... 
Cellula. 

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Yeah, I would agree. 
Nathan, you made a comment. 

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This is probably the best 
Diodora shoe I have ever tried. 

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It's been, yeah, again, hopeful 
that they continue this trend. 

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Fun stuff. 
Matt, what else you got? 

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So I also have, and this has 
been great, the Hoka Stinson 8. 

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It has been so much lighter than
the original. 

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Your colors are so cool. 
I have it too, but mine's just 

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like all black. 
I got them. 

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So I don't get it. 
Oh, that's interesting. 

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It's just all black. 
I don't have any of those design

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elements. 
This reminds me of like old 

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school Hoka. 
Like Bondi 1, 2, 3. 

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Like when they were just like 
bold and crazy on their 

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colorways. 
Like Stinson. 

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Stinson's probably one of the 
oldest lines they got. 

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Yeah. 
Now that I'm thinking about it. 

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I will say it's definitely a lot
softer than the original 

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version. 
And not as wide as well. 

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The volume has definitely 
decreased. 

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Whereas the original like the 
wide foot fam. 

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Like people that wanted the more
anatomic toe box in a trail 

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shoe. 
It's such a massive protective 

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thing. 
It was like such a great shoe. 

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Just it was so heavy. 
And this is definitely not 

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light, but it's so much lighter 
than the original. 

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It's much easier to run in. 
I've been walking quite a bit. 

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I've done several runs in it. 
I will say with the softer 

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midsole, you can run on road for
sure. 

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I'm getting a little early wear 
on the lug so it doesn't feel as

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road versatile as previous. 
Not that you feel the lugs at 

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all. 
Like running on roads fine. 

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00:11:33,340 --> 00:11:37,772
And I have to run on road to get
to trail in all the, all the 

222
00:11:37,772 --> 00:11:41,643
places that I go, go to, um, and
can run easily from either where

223
00:11:41,643 --> 00:11:45,292
I work or where I live. 
But it, the getting some early 

224
00:11:45,292 --> 00:11:46,979
lug where the original didn't 
have that. 

225
00:11:47,099 --> 00:11:50,234
So with lighter rides comes, you
know, a teeny bit less 

226
00:11:50,234 --> 00:11:51,940
durability, but so far it's 
great. 

227
00:11:52,219 --> 00:11:55,179
And again, much softer and 
bouncier isn't the right term, 

228
00:11:55,179 --> 00:11:58,425
but just there's more resilience
in the midsole compared to the 

229
00:11:58,425 --> 00:12:01,080
original that made it way more 
runnable for me. 

230
00:12:01,359 --> 00:12:03,411
Super stable. 
I love walking around in this. 

231
00:12:03,411 --> 00:12:06,483
This has the H frame that they 
typically use in their stability

232
00:12:06,483 --> 00:12:08,788
shoes. 
Although I don't know if they're

233
00:12:08,788 --> 00:12:10,695
categorizing this as a stability
shoe. 

234
00:12:10,695 --> 00:12:14,132
It's not in your face. 
When I'm walking around early, I

235
00:12:14,132 --> 00:12:17,119
don't notice it as much. 
It's just a good stable ride. 

236
00:12:17,380 --> 00:12:20,688
But man, when I'm fatigued and I
use this on one long run, I 

237
00:12:20,688 --> 00:12:22,340
definitely noticed it in a good 
way. 

238
00:12:22,340 --> 00:12:24,132
Where I'm like, oh, I'm 
collapsing more. 

239
00:12:24,132 --> 00:12:26,436
And I feel that H frame a bit 
more. 

240
00:12:26,436 --> 00:12:29,492
That was really nice. 
And there's not a lot of stable 

241
00:12:29,492 --> 00:12:31,539
trail shoe, like stability trail
shoes out there. 

242
00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:34,729
So I would throw this in that 
category. 

243
00:12:34,729 --> 00:12:38,266
But again, I don't think they 
consider that officially. 

244
00:12:38,266 --> 00:12:41,500
Yeah. 
I mean, it's kind of in the king

245
00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:43,180
of like the stability trail 
world. 

246
00:12:43,180 --> 00:12:45,419
But there's also what the 
Sullivan Genesis, too. 

247
00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,765
That's another one. 
Different shoes entirely, but 

248
00:12:48,765 --> 00:12:50,739
both accomplishing a stable 
experience. 

249
00:12:52,059 --> 00:12:54,932
I guess with the thick boys out 
there, like this one is probably

250
00:12:54,932 --> 00:12:58,819
the most stable as far as trail 
running shoes go. um but yeah 

251
00:12:58,819 --> 00:13:01,219
i've liked it too although i 
noticed the weight but i've been

252
00:13:01,219 --> 00:13:04,568
running in a lot of like seven 
ounce shoes lately and like what

253
00:13:04,568 --> 00:13:08,293
are you breathing so hard for 
man like you look like you want 

254
00:13:08,293 --> 00:13:11,836
to that's not you're like i want
to say something face that's a 

255
00:13:11,836 --> 00:13:18,050
different face i'm just laughing
at you saying got him boys and i

256
00:13:18,050 --> 00:13:24,240
just i'm sorry anyways super 
stable on foot great rocker good

257
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,008
lockdown i will say it's more 
snug than previous I think the 

258
00:13:28,008 --> 00:13:31,111
volume is a little bit lower, 
but the width is certainly 

259
00:13:31,111 --> 00:13:32,239
there. 
So it's interesting. 

260
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,752
If I hold it up like that, you'd
be like, yeah, that's a super 

261
00:13:34,752 --> 00:13:36,260
wide toe box. 
And the taper is pretty late. 

262
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:40,333
Like it has space, but it fits a
little bit more snug than it 

263
00:13:40,333 --> 00:13:43,479
looks, but not in a bad way. 
I just feel stable. 

264
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,252
But I do notice the weight when 
I get tired where like it feels 

265
00:13:47,252 --> 00:13:51,143
stable, but like, oh my gosh, I 
was like, I'm not in the best 

266
00:13:51,143 --> 00:13:53,813
shape right now, but I was going
on some hills. 

267
00:13:53,813 --> 00:13:57,715
Yeah. the other day in this shoe
and like i don't know i think 

268
00:13:57,715 --> 00:14:03,404
it's like what is that hill it's
probably like 150 200 feet in 

269
00:14:03,404 --> 00:14:08,492
about 0.3 0.4 miles like it's 
decently steep and it's like a 

270
00:14:08,492 --> 00:14:13,003
like it's trail that's pretty 
close by where i live and i was 

271
00:14:13,003 --> 00:14:16,887
gassed like trying to carry my 
leg up those things but then 

272
00:14:16,887 --> 00:14:21,395
like it's fine i don't know it's
never been a light shoe but it's

273
00:14:21,395 --> 00:14:25,436
a structured reliable shoe and 
for what it does i think it does

274
00:14:25,436 --> 00:14:30,115
a great job you know i do really
like the shoe i think there's i 

275
00:14:30,115 --> 00:14:33,468
think there's three groups that 
will do very well with this 

276
00:14:33,468 --> 00:14:36,209
obviously those wanting a 
lighter hiking shoe compared to 

277
00:14:36,209 --> 00:14:40,101
a lot of the like thick hiking 
shoes the boots are are very 

278
00:14:40,101 --> 00:14:44,243
heavy this can get you off the 
ground it's a record ride pretty

279
00:14:44,243 --> 00:14:47,566
can handle quite a bit that's 
group one group two is those 

280
00:14:47,566 --> 00:14:50,250
that want stability in a trail 
shoe and aren't really worried 

281
00:14:50,250 --> 00:14:53,607
about weight and then the last 
group is those who are running 

282
00:14:53,607 --> 00:14:56,572
over flatter terrain because the
rocker ride rolls really well 

283
00:14:56,572 --> 00:14:59,580
but i agree with the weight when
you start climbing it it's 

284
00:14:59,580 --> 00:15:02,404
noticeable but that's you know 
part of what the shoe is i'm 

285
00:15:02,404 --> 00:15:05,140
wrong i think this was the first
stinson that we've had that 

286
00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:11,440
isn't modeled at all terrain i 
don't know i think they still 

287
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,752
categorize it as okay but like 
it was always like stinson i 

288
00:15:16,752 --> 00:15:20,756
don't have an atr like that was 
always in the name this one's 

289
00:15:20,756 --> 00:15:25,545
just in and I feel like the lugs
reflect that where it definitely

290
00:15:25,545 --> 00:15:29,915
feels a little bit more traily 
in this version not that the 

291
00:15:29,915 --> 00:15:32,635
other ones didn't feel like 
traily but this one feels 

292
00:15:32,635 --> 00:15:35,909
definitely more trail versus 
road where the other one was 

293
00:15:35,909 --> 00:15:40,043
road and trail the way it felt I
don't know just an observation 

294
00:15:40,043 --> 00:15:46,980
sorry Nate so I was wrong it 
wasn't black it's navy blue but 

295
00:15:46,980 --> 00:15:53,066
I just realized why I don't like
this shoe So it's got like a 

296
00:15:53,066 --> 00:15:56,076
golden secondary and the Badger 
football team plays Notre Dame 

297
00:15:56,076 --> 00:15:58,900
in week one. 
So can't wear that shoe ever 

298
00:15:58,900 --> 00:16:00,720
again until after we beat Notre 
Dame. 

299
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:02,799
Then I can wear it. 
It's not happening. 

300
00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:07,258
But the thing that the thing, 
no, I don't, I don't crush my 

301
00:16:07,258 --> 00:16:08,239
dreams. 
It's preseason. 

302
00:16:08,580 --> 00:16:10,359
I can be as excited as I want 
about Badger football. 

303
00:16:11,659 --> 00:16:15,184
But the one thing I was going to
say about the shoe from a fit 

304
00:16:15,184 --> 00:16:17,059
standpoint, I think it is much 
lower volume. 

305
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:20,640
And the part of it is that it's 
not just the shaping of it. 

306
00:16:20,830 --> 00:16:23,756
They have a really kind of 
thicker toe guard and that 

307
00:16:23,756 --> 00:16:25,880
thicker toe guard doesn't allow 
for any stretch. 

308
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:28,810
So it's the shape that it is. 
And if it doesn't work for you, 

309
00:16:28,810 --> 00:16:32,333
it's not going to work for you. 
So I've, I've worn that around a

310
00:16:32,333 --> 00:16:35,999
decent amount, just like getting
time on my feet and I can feel 

311
00:16:35,999 --> 00:16:37,676
it. 
And it's just like, I wouldn't 

312
00:16:37,676 --> 00:16:40,020
want to take this out on a 
longer journey just because that

313
00:16:40,099 --> 00:16:43,575
for me in my fit, like I 
wouldn't, it wouldn't work for 

314
00:16:43,575 --> 00:16:45,020
me. 
More classic Hoka fit. 

315
00:16:45,539 --> 00:16:48,215
Well, being just maybe a teeny 
bit wider than that, but that 

316
00:16:48,215 --> 00:16:51,916
lower volume. 
But then the last thing, which 

317
00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:56,525
this will come out when the 
embargo has cleared, is the 

318
00:16:56,525 --> 00:16:59,039
Ultra Vanish Carbon 3. 
Oh, yeah. 

319
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,059
Their new super shoe. 
I've got about 25 miles on this.

320
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,736
And I went to a Ultra event, 
which is the first event I've 

321
00:17:06,736 --> 00:17:09,880
been to in a long time, because 
I just haven't had time. 

322
00:17:09,939 --> 00:17:12,280
And they reached out the very 
short time frame. 

323
00:17:12,439 --> 00:17:15,922
And I'm like, sure, I'll do a 
24-hour trip to Denver on the 

324
00:17:15,922 --> 00:17:18,858
rare day off I have or I'll 
clear some stuff up. 

325
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:21,154
So it was definitely interesting
to go out there. 

326
00:17:21,154 --> 00:17:23,358
Again, that's where I got to see
Mike Kufusi. 

327
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,494
And then I got to meet a bunch 
of people like Jeff Dengay, Ryan

328
00:17:27,494 --> 00:17:29,420
from Ryan Reviews. 
Everybody was really nice. 

329
00:17:30,140 --> 00:17:33,897
And it was very, very cool just 
to meet people in person because

330
00:17:33,897 --> 00:17:37,071
I don't usually attend Los Vents
because I don't usually have 

331
00:17:37,071 --> 00:17:40,702
time. 
And the other thing was cool to 

332
00:17:40,702 --> 00:17:44,284
see Ultra headquarters and then 
talk to people about the design 

333
00:17:44,284 --> 00:17:47,534
of the shoe and some interesting
stuff from a stability 

334
00:17:47,534 --> 00:17:50,134
standpoint, from a geometry 
standpoint, which they've really

335
00:17:50,134 --> 00:17:51,871
changed. 
You can see, for those of you 

336
00:17:51,871 --> 00:17:53,992
that are watching, for those of 
you listening, apologize that I 

337
00:17:53,992 --> 00:17:57,512
can't show you this. 
You have to check it out on the 

338
00:17:57,512 --> 00:17:59,575
YouTube channel. 
But really massive forefoot 

339
00:17:59,575 --> 00:18:01,976
rocker. 
And this is a four millimeter 

340
00:18:01,976 --> 00:18:03,448
drop. 
Good. 

341
00:18:03,448 --> 00:18:06,595
That's the biggest thing. 
And they found that if altering 

342
00:18:06,595 --> 00:18:09,754
the heel drop up to about six 
millimeters did not 

343
00:18:09,754 --> 00:18:13,575
significantly change form. 
I am very interested to see how 

344
00:18:13,575 --> 00:18:17,687
ultra fans respond to this. 
But I think for me, it's almost 

345
00:18:17,687 --> 00:18:20,855
a no brainer just because it is 
more of a distant shoe. 

346
00:18:20,855 --> 00:18:24,512
It's still got the ultra fit. 
It's not the wide ultra fit. 

347
00:18:24,512 --> 00:18:28,558
It's more of that snug kind of 
racing style that ultra has the 

348
00:18:28,558 --> 00:18:31,220
toe box. 
There's a kind of a significant 

349
00:18:31,220 --> 00:18:33,380
toe guard here that makes the 
volume really low. 

350
00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:36,107
So know that some people might 
be like, hey, this almost like 

351
00:18:36,107 --> 00:18:37,619
feels like it fits a little bit 
short. 

352
00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,786
I went true to size, but very 
different fit. 

353
00:18:40,786 --> 00:18:43,040
They have a very mild heel 
counter. 

354
00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:45,950
So this is going to be one of 
those few shoes that will work 

355
00:18:45,950 --> 00:18:47,350
for those with haggle 
deformities that has not 

356
00:18:47,350 --> 00:18:50,664
bothered me. 
But the Peeba midsole, which is 

357
00:18:50,664 --> 00:18:55,786
called fast race without an A in
the race, is it initially it's 

358
00:18:55,786 --> 00:18:58,164
firm. 
It does start to break in and 

359
00:18:58,164 --> 00:19:00,251
get softer. 
And I will say as a long 

360
00:19:00,251 --> 00:19:02,099
distance shoe, I think that's a 
no brainer. 

361
00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:04,784
And we talked about this on one 
of the previous podcasts with 

362
00:19:04,784 --> 00:19:08,047
ultra that when you have a zero 
drop shoe, that's a soft midsole

363
00:19:08,047 --> 00:19:10,404
foam. 
Most people are going to heel 

364
00:19:10,404 --> 00:19:12,686
strike, especially at later 
stages of races when they 

365
00:19:12,686 --> 00:19:15,284
fatigue. 
And that's going to create a 

366
00:19:15,284 --> 00:19:17,972
negative drop shoe and the four 
millimeter drop and this massive

367
00:19:17,972 --> 00:19:21,450
rocker definitely unloads that. 
And because the name of the game

368
00:19:21,450 --> 00:19:24,750
here is wide toe box, more 
natural, but still efficient 

369
00:19:24,750 --> 00:19:27,051
ride. 
And yeah, so I think there's 

370
00:19:27,051 --> 00:19:28,739
some great changes here. 
Great heel level. 

371
00:19:29,140 --> 00:19:32,239
It is a little bit on the 
heavier side for a super shoe. 

372
00:19:32,260 --> 00:19:36,335
I think mine, I haven't weighed 
yet, but I think it's about 7.7 

373
00:19:36,335 --> 00:19:40,931
ounces for men's size 9. 
I think Mike weighed his size 9 

374
00:19:40,931 --> 00:19:43,619
there and it was like 8.1 
ounces. 

375
00:19:43,939 --> 00:19:47,032
So not the lightest thing out 
there, but very efficient and a 

376
00:19:47,032 --> 00:19:49,859
rare option for those that want 
a more anatomic toe box. 

377
00:19:49,959 --> 00:19:53,235
Compare it. 
I mean, compare performance wise

378
00:19:53,235 --> 00:19:56,040
to the Topo. 
Yeah, I will. 

379
00:19:56,099 --> 00:19:59,929
I will do this on a video, but I
will say the Spectre Elite, in 

380
00:19:59,929 --> 00:20:02,419
my opinion, I think the midsole 
is better. 

381
00:20:02,419 --> 00:20:06,819
It's that ATPU foam just has way
more bounce for me. 

382
00:20:06,819 --> 00:20:10,144
This shoe is way more like 
overall rocker. 

383
00:20:10,144 --> 00:20:13,394
Like the Spectre Elite has that 
really big forefoot rocker. 

384
00:20:13,394 --> 00:20:18,539
This shoe is like a, whoa, kind 
of like the whole thing engages,

385
00:20:18,539 --> 00:20:23,410
but it's not nearly as bouncy. 
The Spectre Elite is both bouncy

386
00:20:23,410 --> 00:20:27,040
and has that really massive 
forefoot rocker this shoe gets a

387
00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:31,009
little bit softer a little bit 
not quite as bouncy but 

388
00:20:31,009 --> 00:20:34,582
definitely that that overall 
roll is a little bit more 

389
00:20:34,582 --> 00:20:38,301
significant plus i do prefer 
this heel counter over the 

390
00:20:38,301 --> 00:20:40,989
specter elite specter elite is 
pretty stiff heel counter and 

391
00:20:40,989 --> 00:20:43,075
it's got that extra padding 
around the achilles and even 

392
00:20:43,075 --> 00:20:45,960
though i love the midsole it is 
bothering me a little bit but 

393
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,234
this one the heel is quite a bit
better just with that little bit

394
00:20:49,234 --> 00:20:53,378
more flexibility but yeah and 
full ground contact outsole 

395
00:20:53,378 --> 00:20:58,152
there were several comments made
going hey we want to see how 

396
00:20:58,152 --> 00:21:00,384
matt runs because we want to 
know how he destroys shoes so 

397
00:21:00,384 --> 00:21:03,389
quick and i'm like you're not 
going to get it because they 

398
00:21:03,389 --> 00:21:06,044
have the full ground contact 
outsole because some people 

399
00:21:06,044 --> 00:21:11,193
listen yeah i haven't actually 
that might be the achilles 

400
00:21:11,193 --> 00:21:14,763
tendinopathy preventing me from 
heel striking because i have to 

401
00:21:14,763 --> 00:21:17,155
like avoid going into 
dorsiflexion on that side but 

402
00:21:17,155 --> 00:21:20,788
yeah that's what i got Awesome. 
I've got a few just to add. 

403
00:21:20,788 --> 00:21:23,648
The first is a correction for 
myself for last week. 

404
00:21:23,648 --> 00:21:27,650
So this is a zero shoe that I've
been getting more time on my 

405
00:21:27,650 --> 00:21:30,500
feet on. 
And I called it the Mesa Trail 2

406
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,920
last week, but it's not that. 
It's actually a new model, the 

407
00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:38,000
Mesa Summit from them. 
everything I said last week 

408
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,540
still stands or whenever that 
last episode that I was on was, 

409
00:21:41,980 --> 00:21:45,368
uh, but I've gotten more time in
it and I've grown to like it 

410
00:21:45,368 --> 00:21:47,397
even more. 
We're going on a backpacking 

411
00:21:47,397 --> 00:21:48,776
trip with our boys this upcoming
week. 

412
00:21:48,776 --> 00:21:50,540
And this is the shoe I'm going 
to wear. 

413
00:21:50,819 --> 00:21:53,847
So I'm, and it's not going to 
be, you know, 10 miles of hiking

414
00:21:53,847 --> 00:21:56,117
a day. 
It'll be like three, but even 

415
00:21:56,117 --> 00:21:58,678
that, and then just like being 
on our feet and being out and 

416
00:21:58,678 --> 00:22:01,120
about in the wilderness, uh, 
that this is what the shoe I'm 

417
00:22:01,120 --> 00:22:02,240
going to take. 
Cause it's just super 

418
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,046
comfortable. 
It's got a little bit more 

419
00:22:04,046 --> 00:22:10,455
structure to it uh the two other
shoes the nike pegasus plus two 

420
00:22:10,455 --> 00:22:15,398
right did i get that right nike 
pegasus plus two i've got a one 

421
00:22:15,398 --> 00:22:19,885
run in this so i still have a 
lot more uh juries out kind of 

422
00:22:19,885 --> 00:22:25,200
thing but it was fine if i just 
give it like a did i like it 

423
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:29,396
standpoint it was very fine it 
did not feel special on the run 

424
00:22:29,396 --> 00:22:34,420
that i took it on i think that 
the forefoot i didn't i it was a

425
00:22:34,540 --> 00:22:37,740
very easy run so i did not like 
put a lot into it so i'm curious

426
00:22:37,740 --> 00:22:41,413
if you put more into it if it's 
gonna give more back i felt like

427
00:22:41,413 --> 00:22:44,797
the heel felt more cushioned 
it's a certain blend of zoom x 

428
00:22:44,797 --> 00:22:48,700
i'm curious if that forefoot 
which felt firmer because you 

429
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:53,735
got the air pod in there not air
pod that's what you put in your 

430
00:22:53,735 --> 00:22:56,933
ears what is it called whatever 
yeah yeah whatever uh it just 

431
00:22:56,933 --> 00:22:59,150
didn't feel special at slower 
paces which means nothing for 

432
00:22:59,150 --> 00:23:02,204
what it's going to mean when it 
picks it up but i'm excited to 

433
00:23:02,204 --> 00:23:05,012
get more miles on it and it's 
got a little bit of flexibility 

434
00:23:05,012 --> 00:23:09,550
but it's really operating off of
a rocker huge change from what 

435
00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:14,398
the first one was like not even 
the same category uh that one 

436
00:23:14,398 --> 00:23:17,650
felt much more of like a 
lifestyle shoe this one does 

437
00:23:17,650 --> 00:23:21,154
seem like a running shoe like it
feels like a pegasus it just 

438
00:23:21,154 --> 00:23:24,094
might be elevated a little bit 
which would line up with what 

439
00:23:24,094 --> 00:23:26,750
they're what they're called 
it'll be a little plus i guess 

440
00:23:26,750 --> 00:23:30,886
you could say i feel like 
pegasus plus it feels like a 

441
00:23:30,886 --> 00:23:33,824
pegasus plus and i'm excited to 
get more miles on it um they 

442
00:23:33,824 --> 00:23:37,521
sent me a nine and a half so i 
don't have a true size nine that

443
00:23:37,521 --> 00:23:40,827
wasn't what i asked for but i 
actually like the fit i have a 

444
00:23:40,827 --> 00:23:44,875
full thumbs width from the 
pegasus plus to like the nine 

445
00:23:44,875 --> 00:23:48,422
and a half but the the width 
feels really nice. 

446
00:23:48,422 --> 00:23:51,530
So I actually think the, I can't
fully say for sure, but I think 

447
00:23:51,530 --> 00:23:55,094
I probably would have preferred 
the half size up for myself. 

448
00:23:55,094 --> 00:23:57,921
I'm kind of a tweener sometimes 
anyway. 

449
00:23:57,921 --> 00:24:01,618
The other shoe is from Carhu, 
the Carhu Fusion 5. 

450
00:24:01,618 --> 00:24:04,816
There's a lot of things that I 
like about this shoe, but one 

451
00:24:04,816 --> 00:24:08,370
that is going to make it a shoe 
that won't be something that I 

452
00:24:08,370 --> 00:24:10,071
reach for. 
I like the new midsole. 

453
00:24:10,071 --> 00:24:14,160
It's a beaded midsole. 
So it, it just like is reeking 

454
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,575
of durability. 
Everything about the shoe is 

455
00:24:16,575 --> 00:24:18,769
reeking durability. 
It's operating on a rockered 

456
00:24:18,769 --> 00:24:21,209
platform. 
It still has a little bit of 

457
00:24:21,209 --> 00:24:22,311
flexibility through the 
forefoot. 

458
00:24:22,311 --> 00:24:25,374
The overall fit is really nice. 
I think that it's got a nice 

459
00:24:25,374 --> 00:24:29,168
amount of volume and width and 
everything in the toe box. 

460
00:24:29,168 --> 00:24:32,784
Locks down overall pretty well. 
I would have liked to see the 

461
00:24:32,784 --> 00:24:34,548
heel. 
The heel kind of like comes 

462
00:24:34,548 --> 00:24:37,058
forward a little bit more than I
would have liked. 

463
00:24:37,058 --> 00:24:40,040
I wish that back heel kind of 
just like went straight up or 

464
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:41,524
pulled back just a little bit 
more. 

465
00:24:41,524 --> 00:24:44,133
But I really like the shaping of
the shoe overall. 

466
00:24:44,133 --> 00:24:47,481
The one thing I'm having a 
problem with is that it really 

467
00:24:47,481 --> 00:24:50,183
has toe spring. 
So this is a toe spring laden 

468
00:24:50,183 --> 00:24:53,836
shoe with the stuff that I've 
dealt with with my left big toe 

469
00:24:53,836 --> 00:24:56,670
that I have issues when I'm just
like pushed into a lot of 

470
00:24:56,670 --> 00:24:59,264
extension all the time. 
This just isn't going to be the 

471
00:24:59,264 --> 00:25:01,487
shoe for me to get a lot of 
miles on because of that. 

472
00:25:01,487 --> 00:25:04,330
If you took that out, I probably
would love getting a lot more 

473
00:25:04,330 --> 00:25:06,082
time in it because it's a firmer
shoe. 

474
00:25:06,082 --> 00:25:09,380
Like the beaded midsole is 
definitely firmer, but it feels 

475
00:25:09,380 --> 00:25:11,105
really rhythmic and like 
protective. 

476
00:25:11,105 --> 00:25:14,988
I think I get a lot of a lot of 
time on this shoe and i know 

477
00:25:14,988 --> 00:25:18,363
y'all have also ran in this so 
i'll kick it over to you yeah i 

478
00:25:18,363 --> 00:25:22,437
agree with a lot of that i i 
will say it feels softer than 

479
00:25:22,437 --> 00:25:26,140
previous car who shoes though 
yes it's definitely this might 

480
00:25:26,140 --> 00:25:30,820
be the softest car who shoe i've
run in but like in today's 

481
00:25:30,820 --> 00:25:35,203
market i can see where the firm 
comment comes in like on the 

482
00:25:35,203 --> 00:25:38,499
softer end of the kind of 
spectrum uh it's a beaded 

483
00:25:38,499 --> 00:25:39,931
nature. 
It does have a little bit of a 

484
00:25:39,931 --> 00:25:41,521
balance to it. 
But like you said, it does kind 

485
00:25:41,521 --> 00:25:44,148
of just breathe like it just 
screams durable. 

486
00:25:44,148 --> 00:25:47,019
Like it's the type of shoe. 
It's not a fast shoe. 

487
00:25:47,019 --> 00:25:50,081
It's a nice rhythmic rocker, but
it does feel like you could just

488
00:25:50,081 --> 00:25:52,997
beat the crap out of it and just
get your miles in. 

489
00:25:52,997 --> 00:25:56,612
I will say, though, the upper is
a little thicker than I might 

490
00:25:56,612 --> 00:25:59,795
want it to be. 
I think they always make good 

491
00:25:59,795 --> 00:26:01,436
uppers. 
They lock down well. 

492
00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:05,027
The dimensions are well defined.
I've always been happy with car 

493
00:26:05,027 --> 00:26:09,134
who uppers but this one i did 
blister a tiny bit and partially

494
00:26:09,134 --> 00:26:12,175
the toe guard but i think my 
foot also and it's been a little

495
00:26:12,175 --> 00:26:15,108
bit warm here we're in the 
middle of el nino so we have a 

496
00:26:15,108 --> 00:26:18,744
lot more humidity than we 
normally do at the moment so i 

497
00:26:18,744 --> 00:26:23,130
don't know i mean i got a 
blister on my great toe so 

498
00:26:23,130 --> 00:26:29,421
running in it on 110 miler i did
but yeah i i just i'm so the 

499
00:26:29,421 --> 00:26:33,319
midsole is so much better than 
anything they've done thus far i

500
00:26:33,319 --> 00:26:37,746
think it's a beaded atp foam and
it's got some bounce again it's 

501
00:26:37,746 --> 00:26:42,016
still a trainer it's but it's 
under 10 ounces finally and 

502
00:26:42,016 --> 00:26:45,103
really nice rolling mid so i've 
got same thing where it's just 

503
00:26:45,103 --> 00:26:47,600
it's even though the forefoot 
feels it feels weirdly wide and 

504
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,534
snug at the same time and yeah 
i'm getting that little bit of i

505
00:26:50,534 --> 00:26:53,065
haven't gotten a blister but 
just noticeable like oh it's 

506
00:26:53,065 --> 00:26:56,196
weirdly snug in interesting 
places and i think it's not that

507
00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:59,550
it's a narrow shoe. 
I just think it just the upper 

508
00:26:59,550 --> 00:27:03,516
curves in so quickly that it 
just ends up that volume is 

509
00:27:03,516 --> 00:27:05,500
definitely lower and makes it 
feel more snug. 

510
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:09,430
But I think the midsole is a 
good push forward for cargo for 

511
00:27:09,430 --> 00:27:11,040
sure. 
David, was your blister on the 

512
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,434
side of your big toe or like the
front? 

513
00:27:13,434 --> 00:27:16,574
Don't worry, there will be no 
dogs on the screen. 

514
00:27:16,574 --> 00:27:20,135
You know, earlier today I sent a
message to the group chat 

515
00:27:20,135 --> 00:27:22,332
because I had another shoe. 
Oh yeah, that definitely 

516
00:27:22,332 --> 00:27:25,347
blistered what I sent you guys 
in the group chat earlier and 

517
00:27:25,347 --> 00:27:28,688
i'll talk about it but i won't 
show it but it was definitely 

518
00:27:28,688 --> 00:27:33,412
nsfw and i apologize for any of 
those who viewed that medial 

519
00:27:33,412 --> 00:27:39,097
side yeah okay i could see that 
because it i think the shoe is 

520
00:27:39,097 --> 00:27:42,984
fits you know i like the amount 
of total volume but short i 

521
00:27:42,984 --> 00:27:46,500
think lengthwise it's like a 
touch short and i can see that 

522
00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:49,060
little taper getting the side 
although now that i'm thinking 

523
00:27:49,079 --> 00:27:52,771
about it that was like the day 
when i sent you guys the 

524
00:27:52,771 --> 00:27:56,159
screenshot and it was like 90 
with 60 percent humidity feels 

525
00:27:56,159 --> 00:27:59,669
like 98 or whatever like it was 
that day now that i'm thinking 

526
00:27:59,669 --> 00:28:03,356
about it i remember now i'm like
no no that was that was the day 

527
00:28:03,356 --> 00:28:06,408
because i remember dying on that
10 mile run i remember like 

528
00:28:06,408 --> 00:28:10,895
hitting mile seven and being 
like shoot i gotta get home like

529
00:28:10,895 --> 00:28:15,146
this is awful like and There's 
no other way home besides the 

530
00:28:15,146 --> 00:28:18,862
way I'm running. 
So I take that with a grain of 

531
00:28:18,862 --> 00:28:21,496
salt. 
That was probably like the worst

532
00:28:21,496 --> 00:28:24,835
conditions could probably be 
here most of the time. 

533
00:28:24,835 --> 00:28:28,225
What else do you have, David? 
Anything else to add? 

534
00:28:28,225 --> 00:28:31,358
So we covered most of them. 
I had the Carhu Fusion 5 in 

535
00:28:31,358 --> 00:28:34,125
there. 
I had the Hoka Stinson 8, the 

536
00:28:34,125 --> 00:28:37,920
Diodora Corsa, and I got two 
that we haven't talked about. 

537
00:28:38,170 --> 00:28:40,418
But you guys have already talked
about it before and the review 

538
00:28:40,418 --> 00:28:43,070
is already out. but I wanted to 
try it for myself because I 

539
00:28:43,070 --> 00:28:44,400
wasn't on the review, but who 
knows? 

540
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:47,700
Maybe I'll love the shoe and it 
can make an award later in the 

541
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:49,300
year. 
So I thought, let's try it out. 

542
00:28:49,410 --> 00:28:51,744
And I've been seeing a lot of 
hype on it. 

543
00:28:51,744 --> 00:28:55,006
I think Ioana has been hyping up
this shoe quite a bit in recent 

544
00:28:55,006 --> 00:28:57,374
times. 
And that's the Brooks Hyperion 

545
00:28:57,374 --> 00:29:00,246
Elite 6. 
And I will say the midsole's 

546
00:29:00,246 --> 00:29:02,400
fun. 
It's really bouncy and lively. 

547
00:29:02,619 --> 00:29:04,380
I like the way the forefoot 
geometry is. 

548
00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:07,020
It's a little bit earlier, but 
it's snappy at the same time. 

549
00:29:07,619 --> 00:29:11,640
It's a really engaging shoe. 
However, that heel collar, they 

550
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,946
put like these little sticky 
kind of silicone things to lock 

551
00:29:15,946 --> 00:29:19,484
your heel in. 
They did a great job locking my 

552
00:29:19,484 --> 00:29:21,026
heel in, but it created 
friction. 

553
00:29:21,026 --> 00:29:23,339
And I have definitely a blister 
on my Achilles. 

554
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,312
So it definitely ran high. 
And probably not going to be the

555
00:29:28,312 --> 00:29:30,839
super shoe for me for that 
reason alone. 

556
00:29:31,069 --> 00:29:34,199
So it's kind of unfortunate. 
But otherwise, I liked it. 

557
00:29:34,199 --> 00:29:37,319
I thought it was good. 
The heel didn't feel unstable. 

558
00:29:37,619 --> 00:29:40,763
You know, it's a pretty narrow 
heel and midfoot with a wider 

559
00:29:40,763 --> 00:29:42,073
forefoot. 
Outsole traction was good. 

560
00:29:42,073 --> 00:29:44,764
It cornered well. 
Not all super shoes corner that 

561
00:29:44,764 --> 00:29:46,228
well. 
So that was a plus. 

562
00:29:46,228 --> 00:29:48,180
The upper, I feel like, locks 
down well. 

563
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,893
And there's not a whole bunch of
stretch to it. 

564
00:29:49,893 --> 00:29:53,161
So all in all, I liked it. 
I just, I can't wear it if it 

565
00:29:53,161 --> 00:29:57,432
hurts my heel or my Achilles. 
The other one that we haven't 

566
00:29:57,432 --> 00:29:59,288
talked about is the Innovate 
Trail Fly Pro. 

567
00:29:59,288 --> 00:30:03,511
So that one just came in. 
I think I'm going to like it. 

568
00:30:03,511 --> 00:30:05,140
Although it's a little bit 
narrow through the midfoot. 

569
00:30:05,319 --> 00:30:07,409
We're getting a lot of these 
like trail shoes that have 

570
00:30:07,409 --> 00:30:10,466
really narrow midfoots. 
So I'm not a hundred percent 

571
00:30:10,466 --> 00:30:14,959
sold on that, but I don't know 
the last one that I had the 

572
00:30:14,959 --> 00:30:18,799
trail fly zero, zero fly fly, 
zero version two, um, trail fly 

573
00:30:18,799 --> 00:30:19,747
zero. 
Yeah. 

574
00:30:19,747 --> 00:30:24,258
Uh, that one looked narrow, but 
it ran just fine, but it was 

575
00:30:24,258 --> 00:30:27,719
also lower in stack and the 
outsole was super thick. 

576
00:30:28,020 --> 00:30:31,620
So yeah, I'm curious to see the 
midsole is definitely softer in 

577
00:30:31,620 --> 00:30:33,719
this one than the trail fly 
zero. 

578
00:30:34,219 --> 00:30:37,638
And I think it should be good. 
I think the lugs, I want to say 

579
00:30:37,638 --> 00:30:39,710
are four millimeters. 
I was super curious before we 

580
00:30:39,710 --> 00:30:41,230
got on because I was looking at 
it. 

581
00:30:41,230 --> 00:30:44,646
I haven't run in this one yet. 
So this will be next on the 

582
00:30:44,646 --> 00:30:46,734
list. 
On some of these lugs, I'm going

583
00:30:46,734 --> 00:30:49,339
to try and put it close to the 
camera here. 

584
00:30:50,119 --> 00:30:52,412
Can I find it on there? 
Right here. 

585
00:30:52,412 --> 00:30:55,558
You can see that little nub that
comes off of that. 

586
00:30:55,558 --> 00:30:57,560
I don't know. 
Can you see that? 

587
00:30:58,339 --> 00:31:01,183
You might not be able to. 
It's pretty cool. 

588
00:31:01,183 --> 00:31:04,497
I looked really closely at them 
before we recorded. and there's 

589
00:31:04,497 --> 00:31:07,624
a little four a little three and
a little two and it looks like a

590
00:31:07,624 --> 00:31:11,460
little staircase and they're the
millimeters yeah that's awesome 

591
00:31:11,460 --> 00:31:16,830
click on the logs i've never 
seen that before but it gives a 

592
00:31:16,830 --> 00:31:19,903
visual so i thought that was 
pretty cool it's the one in the 

593
00:31:19,903 --> 00:31:23,203
heel too if i maybe the black 
will show up a little easier on 

594
00:31:23,203 --> 00:31:25,747
the camera there it is it's 
right there you can see that 

595
00:31:25,747 --> 00:31:28,744
yeah so that's the height of 
each lug and they've changed it 

596
00:31:28,744 --> 00:31:30,575
depending on where it is in the 
shoe Yeah, maybe. 

597
00:31:30,575 --> 00:31:32,955
I don't know. 
They all look like four to me, 

598
00:31:32,955 --> 00:31:35,811
but I think it's just showing 
the depth of what that is. 

599
00:31:35,811 --> 00:31:38,905
I don't think there's any three 
or twos in there, but I just 

600
00:31:38,905 --> 00:31:40,809
showing the depth. 
I just never seen anyone 

601
00:31:40,809 --> 00:31:43,189
actually do that. 
So it looks like a little mini 

602
00:31:43,189 --> 00:31:46,034
staircase, you know, in the heel
and the forefoot, which I think 

603
00:31:46,034 --> 00:31:49,164
is funny, but it's cool. 
Cool. 

604
00:31:49,164 --> 00:31:54,416
I think for me, that shoe is one
that it's kind of Innovate 

605
00:31:54,416 --> 00:31:57,239
putting their like stake in the 
ground. 

606
00:31:57,459 --> 00:32:01,676
They're saying, hey, when people
are saying pro, they're going 

607
00:32:01,676 --> 00:32:05,054
around 40 millimeters. 
They're going to put a carbon 

608
00:32:05,054 --> 00:32:09,190
plate in there and they're going
to put in some sort of really 

609
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:10,780
high, resilient, high compliant 
foam. 

610
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,730
Whereas Innovate is like, no, 
we're sticking to our philosophy

611
00:32:14,730 --> 00:32:17,939
and our guns. 
And that shoe's not up at 40. 

612
00:32:18,079 --> 00:32:20,843
That's like down in the... 
Is that in the 20s, I think, if 

613
00:32:20,843 --> 00:32:23,667
I remember right? 
I don't have the specs on me, 

614
00:32:23,667 --> 00:32:27,339
but the Trailfly Zero version 2 
was at like 12, I think. 

615
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:31,195
So it wouldn't surprise me if it
was in the 20s. 

616
00:32:31,195 --> 00:32:33,640
I'd have to look it up. 
And it's also softer. 

617
00:32:33,989 --> 00:32:35,948
Like, it's a different foam for 
sure. 

618
00:32:35,948 --> 00:32:38,459
I could be wrong, but it feels 
very different. 

619
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:42,851
That'll be fun to see you test 
it out. 

620
00:32:42,851 --> 00:32:45,180
But it's not trying to be a 
super shoe. 

621
00:32:45,420 --> 00:32:49,038
It's their version of pro is how
I kind of visualize and think 

622
00:32:49,038 --> 00:32:51,262
about it. 
Which makes sense for how they 

623
00:32:51,262 --> 00:32:53,429
designed. 
They designed shoes for what's 

624
00:32:53,429 --> 00:32:57,428
called fell running over in the 
UK where it's like really 

625
00:32:57,428 --> 00:32:58,880
technical terrain. 
No trail. 

626
00:32:59,229 --> 00:33:02,239
You are just getting through the
most steep, highly grass, highly

627
00:33:02,239 --> 00:33:05,242
muddy kind of area, which you 
wouldn't want a tall stack 

628
00:33:05,242 --> 00:33:07,699
height shoe unless you want to 
break your ankle. 

629
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,560
This is your more technical kind
of footing stuff that they do a 

630
00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:14,614
good job with. 
Yeah, and I will say the Trail 

631
00:33:14,614 --> 00:33:17,496
Fly Zero version 2 felt very 
confident running over rock and 

632
00:33:17,496 --> 00:33:20,653
just weird footing. 
So I guess there's one other 

633
00:33:20,653 --> 00:33:22,559
one. 
I forgot to grab it, but I'll 

634
00:33:22,559 --> 00:33:24,939
talk about it really fast. 
It's the Brooks Cascadia 20. 

635
00:33:25,020 --> 00:33:28,394
I just wrote the review on that,
so that should be out by the 

636
00:33:28,394 --> 00:33:29,840
time this airs. 
Also very nice. 

637
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,659
They updated that one. 
It's kind of like it's in the 

638
00:33:32,659 --> 00:33:35,599
same boat as the Stinson, where 
the Cascadia has always been a 

639
00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:38,895
sturdy, reliable trail shoe. 
It's never been anything super 

640
00:33:38,895 --> 00:33:43,047
exciting, but it's a great shoe 
for just running easy and hiking

641
00:33:43,047 --> 00:33:46,094
and walking. 
And you see it a lot for those 

642
00:33:46,094 --> 00:33:47,846
types of uses, but they actually
changed it. 

643
00:33:47,846 --> 00:33:51,094
There's DNA flash in it now. 
It's a little bit lighter. 

644
00:33:51,094 --> 00:33:52,739
It's definitely softer than 
previous versions. 

645
00:33:53,060 --> 00:33:56,412
There's four millimeters of 
extra foam than previous 

646
00:33:56,412 --> 00:33:59,339
Cascadia. 
And I would say it's noticeable.

647
00:33:59,410 --> 00:34:02,755
I think the ride reflects that. 
The rocker is a little bit 

648
00:34:02,755 --> 00:34:04,423
better. 
The shoe feels lighter than 

649
00:34:04,423 --> 00:34:07,020
previous Cascadia's. 
Vibro Mega Grip Outsole. 

650
00:34:07,020 --> 00:34:11,138
They've been marketing this one 
as a road to trail, all-terrain 

651
00:34:11,138 --> 00:34:13,974
type of shoe, which I think is 
interesting because I feel like 

652
00:34:13,974 --> 00:34:16,071
the Cascadia in the past has 
almost been a little bit more 

653
00:34:16,071 --> 00:34:19,760
trail heavy. 
But it's fine on road. 

654
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:21,520
I think it still definitely 
leans trail. 

655
00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:25,426
But the upper feels a little bit
more road-like than previous 

656
00:34:25,426 --> 00:34:27,280
Cascadias, like the mesh upper 
does. 

657
00:34:27,820 --> 00:34:31,458
So I don't know, for better or 
worse, I think it's a good shoe.

658
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,194
I think there's a lot of good 
things there, but in the review,

659
00:34:34,194 --> 00:34:36,647
you guys can read it. there's a 
couple of things I noticed that 

660
00:34:36,647 --> 00:34:38,159
I think could probably be a 
little bit better. 

661
00:34:39,978 --> 00:34:42,811
Great. 
Well, if you want to check out 

662
00:34:42,811 --> 00:34:46,699
any of these shoes, you can 
always go to many different 

663
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,835
running shoe stores in your 
local area and check them out. 

664
00:34:49,835 --> 00:34:53,216
If you can't, you can always run
over to running warehouse too. 

665
00:34:53,216 --> 00:34:57,163
But this info testing segment is
always powered by Scratch Labs. 

666
00:34:57,163 --> 00:35:01,348
And so if you're needing any 
in-run hydration, nutrition, 

667
00:35:01,348 --> 00:35:05,950
post-run recovery stuff, you can
go to scratchlabs.com and use 

668
00:35:05,950 --> 00:35:09,199
the code DOCTORSORUNNY to get 
20% off your first order. 

669
00:35:09,199 --> 00:35:12,115
Yes, Matthew. 
I would like to admit this on 

670
00:35:12,115 --> 00:35:16,534
air. 
I think I like the cucumber. 

671
00:35:16,534 --> 00:35:19,566
Was it cucumber lime? 
More than the watermelon. 

672
00:35:19,566 --> 00:35:23,960
Just want to put that out there.
Did you vote in the vote? 

673
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,080
Oh, yeah, they had a vote. 
They had a vote to keep one. 

674
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,000
Oh, no, I missed that. 
No, I didn't. 

675
00:35:29,620 --> 00:35:32,719
Yeah, I don't know. 
I like the watermelon more. 

676
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,159
I think I'm cucumber lime. 
Well, it's won me over. 

677
00:35:36,260 --> 00:35:39,466
I mean, I like the watermelon 
too. 

678
00:35:39,466 --> 00:35:41,298
They're both good. 
Great. 

679
00:35:41,298 --> 00:35:46,388
Let's move on to our mailbag. 
We'll see how many we can get 

680
00:35:46,388 --> 00:35:48,656
to. 
This first question is a really 

681
00:35:48,656 --> 00:35:53,059
good one and really in depth. 
And it kind of harkens back to a

682
00:35:53,059 --> 00:35:55,929
previous episode that we had. 
We were talking about running 

683
00:35:55,929 --> 00:35:59,199
form and mechanics and I think 
foot strike and that episode. 

684
00:35:59,979 --> 00:36:01,870
So I'm going to read some of the
question. 

685
00:36:01,870 --> 00:36:04,600
We'll work through what we can. 
So this is from Aaron, who's 15 

686
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,254
years old. 
They're working on a project and

687
00:36:07,254 --> 00:36:10,493
they had some questions about 
biomechanics and how that may 

688
00:36:10,493 --> 00:36:14,270
impact performance. 
They listened to the episode and

689
00:36:14,270 --> 00:36:17,840
also read an article that we 
have called the Monday Shake 

690
00:36:17,969 --> 00:36:19,656
Out, what is the best running 
form? 

691
00:36:19,656 --> 00:36:21,340
And wanted to ask some follow 
ups. 

692
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,100
So here are the questions and 
I'll just go one at a time. 

693
00:36:25,340 --> 00:36:29,605
How can a runner feel or know 
when they're hitting that 

694
00:36:29,605 --> 00:36:33,839
optimal 10 degree forward lean? 
So I think this is a specific 

695
00:36:33,839 --> 00:36:36,475
question about how do you know 
if you're feeling that forward 

696
00:36:36,475 --> 00:36:39,582
lean, but also how can a runner 
sense their mechanics at all or 

697
00:36:39,582 --> 00:36:41,439
can they? 
What are your thoughts? 

698
00:36:44,060 --> 00:36:47,290
To go from a research 
standpoint, we know that runners

699
00:36:47,290 --> 00:36:50,520
have are on average don't really
know how they're moving. 

700
00:36:50,580 --> 00:36:52,757
They definitely don't know their
foot strike. 

701
00:36:52,757 --> 00:36:54,620
And we've seen that pretty 
consistently. 

702
00:36:54,979 --> 00:36:58,427
And that makes sense in terms of
you have so many moving parts of

703
00:36:58,427 --> 00:37:00,887
the brain has a harder time 
interpreting exactly maybe where

704
00:37:00,887 --> 00:37:06,230
things are. um add fatigue in 
there it probably gets worse but

705
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:10,809
yeah it's there's enough going 
on that optimal form is very 

706
00:37:10,809 --> 00:37:13,994
unique to each person a lot of 
the perfect running form 

707
00:37:13,994 --> 00:37:18,568
research stopped in the 80s um 
there was a biomechanist um 

708
00:37:18,568 --> 00:37:23,693
kavana who yeah they were trying
to find some elite thing and 

709
00:37:23,693 --> 00:37:27,679
there was really nothing major 
that was setting things out even

710
00:37:27,679 --> 00:37:31,544
between like sub elite and elite
elite runners there's so much 

711
00:37:31,544 --> 00:37:34,748
variability probably due to fact
like unique genetic factors 

712
00:37:34,748 --> 00:37:38,496
muscle length hip or mobility of
certain joints that each 

713
00:37:38,496 --> 00:37:41,840
person's going to optimize the 
only way i think to probably 

714
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:44,849
measure that is you'd have to 
try different forms and hook 

715
00:37:44,849 --> 00:37:48,191
yourself up to like a view do 
like a vo2 max like running 

716
00:37:48,191 --> 00:37:51,887
economy type test and see what 
you did well but you got to hold

717
00:37:51,887 --> 00:37:56,219
that for long periods and 
running in a form the issue 

718
00:37:56,219 --> 00:38:00,080
maybe there too is like from our
economy standpoint is we kind of

719
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:02,705
that if you change form, your 
running economy goes down in the

720
00:38:02,705 --> 00:38:07,063
short term. 
So I feel like you'd have to do 

721
00:38:07,063 --> 00:38:11,139
the retraining, then test it 
after that acclimation period. 

722
00:38:11,139 --> 00:38:13,992
And then retrain the old form. 
Yeah. 

723
00:38:13,992 --> 00:38:15,620
Yeah. 
That'd be hard. 

724
00:38:16,580 --> 00:38:19,658
Running retraining on average 
can take about six to nine 

725
00:38:19,658 --> 00:38:21,500
months to make a permanent 
change. 

726
00:38:21,639 --> 00:38:24,424
And that's a long, long, long, 
long time. 

727
00:38:24,424 --> 00:38:29,284
I think that most runners aren't
going to be able to feel what 

728
00:38:29,284 --> 00:38:32,724
their mechanics are in general. 
Regarding the 10 degree forward 

729
00:38:32,724 --> 00:38:36,527
trunk lean, there's been runners
that I have trained their trunk 

730
00:38:36,527 --> 00:38:39,260
lean because of specific 
injuries that they were having, 

731
00:38:39,899 --> 00:38:43,166
potentially low back pain, some 
other knee stuff that we were 

732
00:38:43,166 --> 00:38:45,239
trying to offload some of the 
knee. 

733
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:49,705
And whenever I cue them into 10 
degrees, people think that it's 

734
00:38:49,705 --> 00:38:54,541
a lot more than it actually is. 
the 10 degrees is so subtle. 

735
00:38:54,541 --> 00:38:58,037
It's so subtle that people don't
feel it. 

736
00:38:58,037 --> 00:39:02,719
Or they think that when they're 
doing a 10 degree lean, it feels

737
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,055
like 45. 
So like some people will be 

738
00:39:05,055 --> 00:39:08,039
like, okay, I just want you to 
bring your chest forward, like 

739
00:39:08,039 --> 00:39:10,394
lean forward with your chest 
because people want to like bend

740
00:39:10,394 --> 00:39:12,515
at their hips, but no, it's like
coming forward and should be 

741
00:39:12,515 --> 00:39:15,717
like from your ankles. 
And when they try to do that, 

742
00:39:15,717 --> 00:39:18,379
they feel like they're falling 
forward and they're at like 45 

743
00:39:18,399 --> 00:39:20,087
degrees. 
Then we take a video and they 

744
00:39:20,087 --> 00:39:21,979
basically look like they're 
still upright because they were 

745
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,230
like maybe 10 degrees backward. 
And I'm trying to bring them to 

746
00:39:25,230 --> 00:39:26,820
neutral and maybe a little 
forward. 

747
00:39:27,979 --> 00:39:32,177
So I think that people just sit 
in what their typical pattern 

748
00:39:32,177 --> 00:39:34,620
is. 
And you can't really, you have 

749
00:39:34,620 --> 00:39:37,988
no idea what that is, unless 
it's videotaped and retrained. 

750
00:39:37,988 --> 00:39:42,602
So I don't think that there's a 
perfect way to feel when you're 

751
00:39:42,602 --> 00:39:45,863
at that optimal 10 degree. 
And you might not need 10 

752
00:39:45,863 --> 00:39:47,862
degrees. 
That's kind of the point as 

753
00:39:47,862 --> 00:39:49,659
well, that there is no optimal 
form. 

754
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,409
So yes, I've trained people into
more of a forward trunk lean, 

755
00:39:53,409 --> 00:39:56,598
but it was really specific to 
their needs and their history or

756
00:39:56,598 --> 00:40:00,044
current injuries. 
And I like the forward lean 

757
00:40:00,044 --> 00:40:02,719
because it tends to be one of 
the easier movement tools. 

758
00:40:02,979 --> 00:40:04,976
People generally get that 
concept, even though they tend 

759
00:40:04,976 --> 00:40:07,234
to overdo it. 
It also, for especially patella 

760
00:40:07,234 --> 00:40:09,800
femoral, for shock absorption 
and for back stuff, you usually 

761
00:40:09,810 --> 00:40:12,519
can make an immediate change. 
So it means, hey, maybe we don't

762
00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:15,327
have to stop running. you have a
tool that reduces your symptoms 

763
00:40:15,327 --> 00:40:18,178
if it gets to a manageable level
and you're not doing anything 

764
00:40:18,178 --> 00:40:20,768
more significant like there's no
bone stress injury or something 

765
00:40:20,768 --> 00:40:23,831
like that then yeah you can 
totally use this as a tool to 

766
00:40:23,831 --> 00:40:26,532
keep going some of the other 
ones can be a little bit more 

767
00:40:26,532 --> 00:40:29,459
are a little bit more difficult 
take a lot longer yeah but yeah 

768
00:40:29,459 --> 00:40:32,832
it's not a i don't know exactly 
where it is it's hey i'm going 

769
00:40:32,832 --> 00:40:36,691
to try to give you some kind of 
external cue and get out of your

770
00:40:36,691 --> 00:40:39,903
way and see if you can just 
change this even the smallest 

771
00:40:39,903 --> 00:40:43,475
bit because 10 degrees is very 
little so it means we don't need

772
00:40:43,475 --> 00:40:47,077
much to change where forces are 
going so they don't need to have

773
00:40:47,077 --> 00:40:51,312
it just like can we can i teach 
you this little cue and doesn't 

774
00:40:51,312 --> 00:40:55,139
necessarily matter how far you 
go is if it can change your 

775
00:40:55,300 --> 00:40:58,072
symptoms cool you got a tool 
this is something you can 

776
00:40:58,072 --> 00:41:01,460
practice and pain is gonna is a 
good motivator too because if it

777
00:41:01,460 --> 00:41:04,192
takes your pain away people are 
usually pretty good at like hey 

778
00:41:04,192 --> 00:41:06,191
i'm gonna do like high 
repetition of this which 

779
00:41:06,191 --> 00:41:08,751
typically tends to change move 
it a little that's That's an 

780
00:41:08,751 --> 00:41:11,510
interesting thing you brought up
there too, because being a 

781
00:41:11,510 --> 00:41:15,224
physical therapist, we tend to 
see people when they're in pain.

782
00:41:15,224 --> 00:41:19,396
So that also kind of biases kind
of how we approach that a little

783
00:41:19,396 --> 00:41:22,684
bit as well, where it's not 
necessarily looking at something

784
00:41:22,684 --> 00:41:25,804
purely from like a running 
economic standpoint and more 

785
00:41:25,804 --> 00:41:28,219
from a pathologic standpoint, go
to speak. 

786
00:41:30,639 --> 00:41:33,618
I will say I actually have had 
several people, including 

787
00:41:33,618 --> 00:41:36,823
students and other faculty that 
have come to me going, Hey, I 

788
00:41:36,823 --> 00:41:39,861
want to work on my running form.
And I'm like, all right, let's 

789
00:41:39,861 --> 00:41:43,091
come in and just see, I'm going 
to give you a heads up that, you

790
00:41:43,091 --> 00:41:44,498
know, each person's a little bit
unique. 

791
00:41:44,498 --> 00:41:49,010
Um, and they have asked about 
that, but I will say that when 

792
00:41:49,010 --> 00:41:52,824
I've given that people that have
pain and that takes away their 

793
00:41:52,824 --> 00:41:56,154
pain away, that pain away, 
typically have an easier time 

794
00:41:56,154 --> 00:41:59,688
learning that compared to people
that don't, if I just my small 

795
00:41:59,688 --> 00:42:01,832
sample size. 
And I think my hypothesis would 

796
00:42:01,832 --> 00:42:04,094
be is because pain is a great 
motivator. 

797
00:42:04,094 --> 00:42:07,476
And it's a great biofeedback. 
It tells you if you're there or 

798
00:42:07,476 --> 00:42:08,600
not. 
It tells you. 

799
00:42:08,879 --> 00:42:09,427
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

800
00:42:09,427 --> 00:42:12,441
I think that leads into their 
other question that we'll talk 

801
00:42:12,441 --> 00:42:14,080
about and then we'll move 
forward. 

802
00:42:14,739 --> 00:42:17,916
The other question is this, if, 
quote, perfect form is different

803
00:42:17,916 --> 00:42:21,590
for different people, how can a 
runner know if their form is 

804
00:42:21,590 --> 00:42:23,982
good enough? 
And I think that they're looking

805
00:42:23,982 --> 00:42:27,735
at this from the perspective of 
running economy more so than 

806
00:42:27,735 --> 00:42:30,391
from injury. 
But like David said, our mind 

807
00:42:30,391 --> 00:42:33,171
goes towards the injury. 
But what is your response to 

808
00:42:33,171 --> 00:42:34,379
that? 
That's such a tricky one. 

809
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,747
I think finding a space, and 
this is such a subjective 

810
00:42:38,747 --> 00:42:40,764
response. 
It's probably not what they 

811
00:42:40,764 --> 00:42:44,611
want. 
But a lot of it comes from like 

812
00:42:44,611 --> 00:42:47,801
almost like the running 
equivalent of like soul 

813
00:42:47,801 --> 00:42:51,092
searching. 
You got to like really like look

814
00:42:51,092 --> 00:42:53,360
inside yourself and really think
about it. 

815
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,504
Hit a state of zen while you're 
running and be like, you might 

816
00:42:56,504 --> 00:42:58,879
even have to like close your 
eyes a little bit when you're 

817
00:42:58,879 --> 00:43:01,247
like on a track. 
Pick a surface that's super flat

818
00:43:01,247 --> 00:43:04,459
that you really trust that, you 
know, like, but like really find

819
00:43:04,979 --> 00:43:09,539
that sensation of where you feel
the best and what makes the most

820
00:43:09,539 --> 00:43:13,160
sense to your body. 
And that will most likely be the

821
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,269
most economic path for you. 
Like, it's hard to say, you 

822
00:43:17,269 --> 00:43:20,714
know, but we all find our own 
ways of moving, but there things

823
00:43:20,714 --> 00:43:22,454
can change with pace and stuff 
like that. 

824
00:43:22,454 --> 00:43:24,856
But I will, I think there is 
something to be said when you 

825
00:43:24,856 --> 00:43:28,054
have a surface that you don't 
have to think about it. 

826
00:43:28,054 --> 00:43:31,127
You know, when you're on a 
street and there's sidewalks and

827
00:43:31,127 --> 00:43:33,323
there's cracks and there's 
people walking their dogs and 

828
00:43:33,323 --> 00:43:36,012
there's bikes coming one way and
cars going another way, you're 

829
00:43:36,012 --> 00:43:38,520
thinking about so many things. 
Even if you don't realize it, 

830
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:41,914
you're changing how you move and
how you interact with things. 

831
00:43:41,914 --> 00:43:45,243
There's a reason why running 
fast on a track is so much 

832
00:43:45,243 --> 00:43:48,631
easier than running fast on a 
road, given certain things the 

833
00:43:48,631 --> 00:43:52,235
same. 
But I think finding that sweet 

834
00:43:52,235 --> 00:43:55,887
spot for yourself and really 
just feeling what that means to 

835
00:43:55,887 --> 00:43:58,804
you. 
Like I feel smooth when I run 

836
00:43:58,804 --> 00:44:02,669
like this and also like 
comparing how you feel on given 

837
00:44:02,669 --> 00:44:04,419
days because you won't feel good
every day either. 

838
00:44:05,139 --> 00:44:07,303
So sometimes you might be tired 
and dragging your feet around 

839
00:44:07,303 --> 00:44:10,819
and you're not going to be quite
as economic as you were a couple

840
00:44:10,819 --> 00:44:13,244
of days ago, unless you've 
really trained up something. 

841
00:44:13,244 --> 00:44:15,559
But I don't know. 
That's a really long winded 

842
00:44:15,559 --> 00:44:17,179
answer and it's not 
straightforward at all. 

843
00:44:17,459 --> 00:44:23,112
But I feel like the only way is 
to really think about how you 

844
00:44:23,112 --> 00:44:27,545
feel at certain strides, paces, 
cadences, and just kind of see 

845
00:44:27,545 --> 00:44:32,116
what feels the most natural. 
And also kind of going in line 

846
00:44:32,116 --> 00:44:34,556
with the forward lean. 
Usually when you have just a 

847
00:44:34,556 --> 00:44:36,959
little bit of a forward lean, 
like not dramatic, but just a 

848
00:44:36,959 --> 00:44:39,159
little bit to make sure you feel
like you're going forward. 

849
00:44:40,219 --> 00:44:44,009
That usually is going to be the 
thing that is more economic for 

850
00:44:44,009 --> 00:44:45,534
you. 
But we usually find that 

851
00:44:45,534 --> 00:44:49,343
naturally on our own anyways. 
most of the time yeah there's 

852
00:44:49,343 --> 00:44:53,586
evidence that backs that up that
we find it naturally over the 

853
00:44:53,586 --> 00:44:57,410
first couple years of for new 
runners their cadence naturally 

854
00:44:57,410 --> 00:45:00,189
increases without any queuing 
it's just observational studies 

855
00:45:00,189 --> 00:45:03,368
so i think that there is some 
level there and i resonate with 

856
00:45:03,368 --> 00:45:06,394
what you said david i have 
memories of runs like i can 

857
00:45:06,394 --> 00:45:09,979
think of the stretch of of kind 
of path i was on where i was 

858
00:45:10,040 --> 00:45:13,065
thinking about what feels best 
about exactly where my how my 

859
00:45:13,065 --> 00:45:16,540
foot hits the ground what feels 
best in terms of how much I'm 

860
00:45:16,540 --> 00:45:20,318
driving my knee forward I have a
I have a day I was like doing 

861
00:45:20,318 --> 00:45:24,883
that exact process and I think 
that there's some subjective 

862
00:45:24,883 --> 00:45:30,197
truth yeah I remember distinctly
a run with you two guys actually

863
00:45:30,197 --> 00:45:33,869
specifically on the Charles 
River in Boston Massachusetts 

864
00:45:33,869 --> 00:45:39,250
years ago and I was really fit 
at that time and I had just come

865
00:45:39,250 --> 00:45:43,259
off of winning the or my heat at
the Oxy um invite and And we 

866
00:45:43,259 --> 00:45:46,109
were doing some testing over at 
Saucony and all of that. 

867
00:45:46,109 --> 00:45:48,699
And I just remember how light my
feet felt running. 

868
00:45:48,750 --> 00:45:49,944
It didn't matter about the 
shoes. 

869
00:45:49,944 --> 00:45:51,134
It didn't matter about anything 
else. 

870
00:45:51,134 --> 00:45:52,520
But I remember how my strike 
felt. 

871
00:45:52,550 --> 00:45:55,515
I remember how, like, my feet, 
my heel lift and everything. 

872
00:45:55,515 --> 00:45:58,319
Like, and it's so subjective. 
I can't quantify any of that 

873
00:45:58,319 --> 00:46:01,055
unless we put biomarkers on me 
and be like, okay, what does 

874
00:46:01,055 --> 00:46:02,780
that look like? 
And how can we replicate that? 

875
00:46:03,260 --> 00:46:05,752
But there is a certain level of,
like, as you get better at 

876
00:46:05,752 --> 00:46:07,280
running, you just get better at 
running, too. 

877
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,960
And if you're fit, like, you're 
probably going to be more 

878
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,479
economic as well. 
But yeah, there's like certain 

879
00:46:13,479 --> 00:46:16,553
sensations you have in your body
where you're like, wow, like I'm

880
00:46:16,553 --> 00:46:19,004
running efficient right now. 
This isn't that hard. 

881
00:46:19,004 --> 00:46:20,840
And it's not always pace 
dependent. 

882
00:46:21,050 --> 00:46:24,216
Like, I mean, in terms of like, 
this is what feels good for my 

883
00:46:24,216 --> 00:46:29,221
body at the moment. 
Probably part of that too is the

884
00:46:29,221 --> 00:46:31,515
fact that, you know, there's 
also a cognitive component like 

885
00:46:31,515 --> 00:46:34,060
fatigue and other factors are 
also going to influence that. 

886
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:38,487
But I can hear some of the neuro
PhD PTs that I work with 

887
00:46:38,487 --> 00:46:41,680
screaming in my ear right now 
that And then one of the phrases

888
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,120
that I always heard is movement 
is emergent. 

889
00:46:43,260 --> 00:46:45,530
And you've mentioned this, that,
you know, as you start running, 

890
00:46:45,530 --> 00:46:48,215
you're going to be a lot more 
aware of like, since like, whoa,

891
00:46:48,215 --> 00:46:50,448
what the heck is this? 
And just trying to deal with all

892
00:46:50,448 --> 00:46:53,407
the input. 
But if you really want to change

893
00:46:53,407 --> 00:46:55,936
things, you should put yourself 
in situations that gradually 

894
00:46:55,936 --> 00:46:58,225
change things over time. 
Like, for example, a great way 

895
00:46:58,225 --> 00:47:00,397
to work on running form without 
having to think about it too 

896
00:47:00,397 --> 00:47:02,060
much are things like hill 
repeats, right? 

897
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,507
Because it forces some of the 
things that we typically say, 

898
00:47:04,507 --> 00:47:07,730
hey, we want to get like good 
stride length or like a slight 

899
00:47:07,730 --> 00:47:10,929
forward lean. like that happens 
automatically with that and the 

900
00:47:10,929 --> 00:47:14,569
less you have to think about a 
movement and the more you 

901
00:47:14,569 --> 00:47:16,616
practice that the better things 
usually come because when you 

902
00:47:16,616 --> 00:47:19,155
try to force things the more you
think about your running 

903
00:47:19,155 --> 00:47:21,780
mechanics we have evidence that 
actually totally makes you less 

904
00:47:21,919 --> 00:47:24,389
efficient because you're trying 
to change things because a lot 

905
00:47:24,389 --> 00:47:28,592
of this is not exactly true and 
i'm gonna get screamed at but a 

906
00:47:28,592 --> 00:47:32,308
lot of gait and locomotion is 
very like subcortical meaning 

907
00:47:32,308 --> 00:47:34,997
that your brain that like more 
higher advanced part of your 

908
00:47:34,997 --> 00:47:37,944
brain do not get involved 
because that is very energy and 

909
00:47:37,944 --> 00:47:40,151
efficient. 
It's very cyclic, repetitive, 

910
00:47:40,151 --> 00:47:44,714
very spinal cord, lower brain 
stem kind of area where it's 

911
00:47:44,714 --> 00:47:47,067
just like, hey, how do we 
modulate this and just keep you 

912
00:47:47,067 --> 00:47:48,892
going? 
So the more you get your higher 

913
00:47:48,892 --> 00:47:51,322
centers of your brain involved, 
the less efficient you are. 

914
00:47:51,322 --> 00:47:55,503
And so the more you can put 
yourself in a situation like, 

915
00:47:55,503 --> 00:47:59,787
yes, new runners carefully 
should do things like strides. 

916
00:47:59,787 --> 00:48:02,448
And it's not necessarily 
aggressive speed work because 

917
00:48:02,448 --> 00:48:06,653
that takes a lot out of you, but
some hill strides can be a great

918
00:48:06,653 --> 00:48:09,612
way to go hey how do i 
facilitate that forward lean how

919
00:48:09,612 --> 00:48:12,704
do i get you know a little bit 
better knee drive well that's 

920
00:48:12,704 --> 00:48:14,871
not the right term because we 
actually know that you're you 

921
00:48:14,871 --> 00:48:18,563
know a lot of the activity from 
your hip flexors actually comes 

922
00:48:18,563 --> 00:48:22,625
right as your toe comes off 
actually in hip extension not 

923
00:48:22,625 --> 00:48:27,214
toward later stages so you know 
being able to go hey instead of 

924
00:48:27,214 --> 00:48:30,854
if i can if if you can cue 
somebody cool but the better 

925
00:48:30,854 --> 00:48:32,820
ways to get somebody to change 
running for it we're putting 

926
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,576
yourself in the situation that 
almost demands that and continue

927
00:48:35,576 --> 00:48:39,009
to work on that whereas i as 
i've gotten with some return to 

928
00:48:39,009 --> 00:48:41,643
run return to not return to run 
but return to performance which 

929
00:48:41,643 --> 00:48:45,416
is the next stage have used hill
repeats as a intervention to go 

930
00:48:45,416 --> 00:48:49,583
hey i want you to do a couple of
these gently don't kill yourself

931
00:48:49,583 --> 00:48:52,544
but i want to get that forward 
lean to get a little better 

932
00:48:52,544 --> 00:48:55,196
mechanics i want you to 
integrate one or two of these 

933
00:48:55,196 --> 00:48:58,575
gently every week as a way to go
this is going to be better for 

934
00:48:58,575 --> 00:49:01,274
making a permanent change than 
having you think about it all 

935
00:49:01,274 --> 00:49:04,949
the time because the more we 
like overly think it does mess 

936
00:49:04,949 --> 00:49:09,491
with us so yeah the more you can
do it like with external cues we

937
00:49:09,491 --> 00:49:12,416
know from the evidence and those
the pt students are going to 

938
00:49:12,416 --> 00:49:15,290
groan because they're like oh my
gosh i've heard this so much you

939
00:49:15,290 --> 00:49:17,990
got to use external cues that's 
supposedly more efficient long 

940
00:49:17,990 --> 00:49:22,220
term but yeah trying to not 
think about it as much is good 

941
00:49:22,220 --> 00:49:25,724
because i think the more you 
obsess about it the worse your 

942
00:49:25,724 --> 00:49:28,748
economy is going to get like 
simple things if i give somebody

943
00:49:28,748 --> 00:49:32,092
a cue it's like i just want you 
to think about one thing and 

944
00:49:32,092 --> 00:49:34,501
you're going to do intervals 
with it you're going to think 

945
00:49:34,501 --> 00:49:36,787
about it for maybe 10 seconds 
and then stop thinking about it 

946
00:49:36,787 --> 00:49:39,113
for several minutes and then 
five minutes later think about 

947
00:49:39,113 --> 00:49:42,896
it for 10 seconds get out of 
your head if you can just 

948
00:49:42,896 --> 00:49:46,205
because the less the more your 
brain the higher centers your 

949
00:49:46,205 --> 00:49:48,565
brain get involved this is 
assuming external correction 

950
00:49:48,565 --> 00:49:52,449
though like because i think the 
question was more referring to 

951
00:49:52,449 --> 00:49:57,105
internal feedback like from 
yourself yeah right but we know 

952
00:49:57,105 --> 00:50:00,914
that that may especially like 
later on or like that may not be

953
00:50:00,914 --> 00:50:04,405
the best although i think as 
people get more experienced they

954
00:50:04,405 --> 00:50:07,973
may be able to automatically 
like have internal cues they can

955
00:50:07,973 --> 00:50:11,756
kick on just from experience but
i'm not the best neural pt so 

956
00:50:11,756 --> 00:50:15,490
probably send it all wrong it's 
great these are great questions 

957
00:50:15,490 --> 00:50:20,064
we're gonna move on to our next 
one from wayne and wayne said 

958
00:50:20,064 --> 00:50:23,714
i'm just recovering from paz 
answering has answering pez i 

959
00:50:23,714 --> 00:50:27,539
think it was supposed to be pes 
answering yeah pes answering 

960
00:50:27,539 --> 00:50:31,560
bursitis it just was yeah sorry 
about that uh caused by a right 

961
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,208
bow leg so he's referring to a 
bow leg meaning that your knee 

962
00:50:36,208 --> 00:50:41,330
kind of moves outward so boom an
x-ray indicates mild medial 

963
00:50:41,330 --> 00:50:44,903
degeneration of the knee joint i
also have wide feet and i'm 

964
00:50:44,903 --> 00:50:47,819
looking for advice on the best 
road running shoes. 

965
00:50:47,819 --> 00:50:51,993
My running is mostly trail and 
road, trained my whole life, now

966
00:50:51,993 --> 00:50:56,166
67 years old, ex-military, and 
have done some form of 

967
00:50:56,166 --> 00:50:59,514
strengthening continuously. 
I've always had bow legs with 

968
00:50:59,514 --> 00:51:03,174
the right more so than the left.
With everything I've been told 

969
00:51:03,174 --> 00:51:06,770
or read, a neutral cushioned 
shoe with some stability is 

970
00:51:06,770 --> 00:51:09,911
best. 
I'm a bit lost on either high or

971
00:51:09,911 --> 00:51:12,255
mild conditioning. 
Any help pointing me in the 

972
00:51:12,255 --> 00:51:13,959
right direction would be much 
appreciated. 

973
00:51:14,659 --> 00:51:17,235
Before we go into shoe 
recommendations, can we do a 

974
00:51:17,235 --> 00:51:19,311
little background? 
What is the peasant serine? 

975
00:51:19,311 --> 00:51:21,659
What is the irritation in that 
region? 

976
00:51:23,679 --> 00:51:27,408
So there is a small burst, 
although this is very much 

977
00:51:27,408 --> 00:51:30,472
argued in clinical research 
about whether this is like 

978
00:51:30,472 --> 00:51:33,539
fully, if that's really the 
symptom generator, but it's 

979
00:51:33,539 --> 00:51:35,556
basically the medial side of the
knee. 

980
00:51:35,556 --> 00:51:38,608
You have a bursa, but you also 
have a ton of tendons that wrap 

981
00:51:38,608 --> 00:51:42,262
right into that area that can 
get irritated from either 

982
00:51:42,262 --> 00:51:45,179
sometimes just excessive motion 
in that area. 

983
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:47,350
Some people just get some 
rubbing and friction that can 

984
00:51:47,350 --> 00:51:49,690
irritate it. 
The other groups can be those 

985
00:51:49,690 --> 00:51:53,283
that maybe internally rotate or 
even externally rotate or adduct

986
00:51:53,283 --> 00:51:55,959
or abduct a little bit too much 
can change how forces go. 

987
00:51:56,540 --> 00:51:59,807
And it sounds like if you've got
bow legs, it's going more the 

988
00:51:59,807 --> 00:52:02,764
opposite direction where a lot 
of people are like, oh, we need 

989
00:52:02,764 --> 00:52:05,124
to have glute strengthening and 
correct the knee coming and 

990
00:52:05,124 --> 00:52:07,145
whatever. 
This is probably going the 

991
00:52:07,145 --> 00:52:09,962
opposite direction if you're 
getting more of that compression

992
00:52:09,962 --> 00:52:12,459
on the medial side with some 
medial changes. 

993
00:52:12,620 --> 00:52:16,790
So actually, I'm going to 
suggest the exact opposite of 

994
00:52:16,790 --> 00:52:20,124
the stability, maybe not 
neutral, but the stability 

995
00:52:20,124 --> 00:52:21,280
component. 
I would not do. 

996
00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:24,909
I'm just going to agree. 
Because we know that that 

997
00:52:24,909 --> 00:52:28,239
actually increases load on the 
medial side of the knee. 

998
00:52:28,679 --> 00:52:31,679
And you're actually going to 
want a shoe that has more like 

999
00:52:31,679 --> 00:52:34,115
lateral flare. 
They don't make running shoe 

1000
00:52:34,115 --> 00:52:37,534
like a ton of options with a 
lateral post or a lateral wedge,

1001
00:52:37,534 --> 00:52:40,690
which is kind of in the clinical
world what you would typically 

1002
00:52:40,690 --> 00:52:43,694
do for something like this. 
You kind of change forces to the

1003
00:52:43,694 --> 00:52:46,840
joint line to be able to get 
that away from the medial side. 

1004
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:50,542
But I would say something that 
has lateral sole flare would be 

1005
00:52:50,542 --> 00:52:55,324
a great thing to do if you want 
a racing shoe. and david and 

1006
00:52:55,324 --> 00:52:59,295
andrea talked about this but the
uh um hyperwarp series from 

1007
00:52:59,295 --> 00:53:05,260
mizuno has like the most i hate 
it and you guys love it yeah 

1008
00:53:05,260 --> 00:53:10,979
yeah that would be my yeah yeah 
yeah what do you two think 

1009
00:53:12,459 --> 00:53:14,976
sounds like it's a little less 
on the performance side yeah i 

1010
00:53:14,976 --> 00:53:17,546
will say just from a basic 
anatomy standpoint when he's 

1011
00:53:17,546 --> 00:53:19,716
talking about kind of a 
bow-legged structure it's what 

1012
00:53:19,716 --> 00:53:23,764
we call any varus I think a lot 
of people associate the knees 

1013
00:53:23,764 --> 00:53:27,017
with a knock knee position and 
or valgus position where it's 

1014
00:53:27,017 --> 00:53:30,323
kind of caving in and the femur 
is going down and in and your 

1015
00:53:30,323 --> 00:53:33,200
tibia is coming kind of outwards
this is going the opposite 

1016
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,264
direction where the femur is 
kind of moving more out and the 

1017
00:53:35,264 --> 00:53:38,673
tibia is kind of coming more in 
and so that comes with its own 

1018
00:53:38,673 --> 00:53:41,718
challenges but if you're already
in that kind of like slightly 

1019
00:53:41,718 --> 00:53:44,695
outward pitch position a lot of 
people tend to be a little bit 

1020
00:53:44,695 --> 00:53:48,220
more inverted like with how they
land and move uh at the subtalar

1021
00:53:48,220 --> 00:53:52,589
joint and in the ankle uh just 
to clarify and yeah, I think 

1022
00:53:52,589 --> 00:53:56,186
adding a post or something for 
stability is probably not the 

1023
00:53:56,186 --> 00:53:59,378
move here, because it's in 
theory going to just push you 

1024
00:53:59,378 --> 00:54:01,332
further laterally, which you're 
already trying to control. 

1025
00:54:01,332 --> 00:54:04,164
And that can explain a lot of 
the irritation and friction on 

1026
00:54:04,164 --> 00:54:05,925
the medial side of the joint 
line. 

1027
00:54:05,925 --> 00:54:09,214
So I'm right there with Klein. 
I am like picturing a lot of 

1028
00:54:09,214 --> 00:54:11,320
adductor strengthening, internal
rotator strengthening, like, and

1029
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:14,330
then in the event you're looking
for a shoe, probably something 

1030
00:54:14,330 --> 00:54:17,016
that helps prevent some of that 
lateral movement, which would be

1031
00:54:17,016 --> 00:54:20,556
something has a lot of lateral 
soul flare so you could look at 

1032
00:54:20,556 --> 00:54:23,627
something along the lines of 
like hoka does pretty good job 

1033
00:54:23,627 --> 00:54:26,465
with soul flares i was thinking 
the stinson immediately has a 

1034
00:54:26,465 --> 00:54:30,380
decent option although it might 
be a little too stable but the 

1035
00:54:30,380 --> 00:54:34,639
stability is different though 
the nice part about the h the h 

1036
00:54:34,639 --> 00:54:37,889
frame is on the lateral aspect 
as well so that that may work 

1037
00:54:37,889 --> 00:54:40,996
yeah and then more in the 
neutral category but honestly i 

1038
00:54:40,996 --> 00:54:43,673
brought it up earlier the 
cascadia is not a bad option 

1039
00:54:43,673 --> 00:54:47,972
there either um you've got a 
fair amount of soul flare there 

1040
00:54:47,972 --> 00:54:51,608
i haven't does mizuno have any 
like active trail models that 

1041
00:54:51,608 --> 00:54:54,567
they're running out right now in
the north american market at 

1042
00:54:54,567 --> 00:54:59,339
least they do actually uh they 
did i don't think we got it but 

1043
00:54:59,339 --> 00:55:02,179
they have i have not tried it 
it's like a almost super-esque 

1044
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:07,051
trail shoot it's very soft i'm 
forgetting the name because they

1045
00:55:07,051 --> 00:55:11,795
do actually just generally um 
the puma deviate nitro trail has

1046
00:55:11,795 --> 00:55:16,020
a good amount of lateral soul 
flare but that's more of like a 

1047
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,905
performance racing shoe yeah 
racing i would look into 

1048
00:55:18,905 --> 00:55:21,821
something like topo athletic 
they usually do a pretty good 

1049
00:55:21,821 --> 00:55:25,902
job with their soul flaring like
the terra venture or um i was 

1050
00:55:25,902 --> 00:55:29,873
gonna say the my shoe that i had
was the phantom because they 

1051
00:55:29,873 --> 00:55:33,160
even have a little lateral 
sidewall that was that bugged me

1052
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,702
uh no the phantom the phantom 
had a lateral sidewall that 

1053
00:55:37,702 --> 00:55:41,460
bugged my foot so i think that 
means it would kind of 

1054
00:55:41,460 --> 00:55:44,185
potentially guide to the medial 
side so that was gonna be my 

1055
00:55:44,185 --> 00:55:47,455
number one shoe from like a road
running standpoint yeah i guess 

1056
00:55:47,455 --> 00:55:50,825
i'm just thinking like road to 
trail like i'm just trying to 

1057
00:55:50,825 --> 00:55:55,167
get both but yeah i think 
stinson might not be a bad idea 

1058
00:55:55,167 --> 00:55:59,210
but i just got to try it first 
see if that's all side bothered 

1059
00:55:59,210 --> 00:56:02,778
because the medial side is super
noticeable if they like a lot of

1060
00:56:02,778 --> 00:56:06,126
stack that one also has quite a 
bit of lateral soul flare 

1061
00:56:06,126 --> 00:56:09,550
through the forefoot yeah that's
a great one that's one of the 

1062
00:56:09,550 --> 00:56:12,858
reasons why I liked it Ultimase 
of 500 Ultimase is a good one 

1063
00:56:12,858 --> 00:56:17,454
too yeah from North Face 
Ultimase of 500 version 2 is 

1064
00:56:17,454 --> 00:56:24,669
that the new anti T2023 T2023 
Ultimase of 500 version 2 how 

1065
00:56:24,669 --> 00:56:29,577
many numbers and letters can we 
play love it alright we have 

1066
00:56:29,577 --> 00:56:34,340
time for one more question you 
all ready for it let's do it so 

1067
00:56:34,340 --> 00:56:39,979
this is a question from david 
but a different david i'm pretty

1068
00:56:39,979 --> 00:56:42,729
certain unless some stuff has 
happened in your life that you 

1069
00:56:42,729 --> 00:56:46,226
haven't been sharing with us but
we talk way too often for that 

1070
00:56:46,226 --> 00:56:49,749
to be the case but anyway they 
said i've emailed you in the 

1071
00:56:49,749 --> 00:56:52,688
past with regard to shoe advice 
and all your help help was taken

1072
00:56:52,688 --> 00:56:55,364
to heart and it's helped me 
succeed on my journey this 

1073
00:56:55,364 --> 00:56:59,277
january my running journey was 
halted as i had to have a total 

1074
00:56:59,277 --> 00:57:02,161
foot reconstruction we don't 
have other details about this, 

1075
00:57:02,161 --> 00:57:06,073
but he recently got the green 
light to do running some seven 

1076
00:57:06,073 --> 00:57:09,267
plus months after surgery. 
Of course, been struggling with 

1077
00:57:09,267 --> 00:57:13,350
his cardio and having a hard 
time to find the shoe that works

1078
00:57:13,350 --> 00:57:16,450
for him. 
I wear a size 12 wide and have 

1079
00:57:16,450 --> 00:57:20,255
flattish feet and pronate some. 
My favorite shoes had been the 

1080
00:57:20,255 --> 00:57:23,306
original Tempest and the 
Hurricane, but they don't feel 

1081
00:57:23,306 --> 00:57:25,140
comfortable for me anymore 
post-surgery. 

1082
00:57:25,140 --> 00:57:29,140
What do you suggest? 
I'm hoping for soft cushion with

1083
00:57:29,140 --> 00:57:33,544
some pop to push me some. 
Like most of my favorite shoe 

1084
00:57:33,544 --> 00:57:37,360
ever was the first version of 
the SC Trainer from New Balance.

1085
00:57:37,739 --> 00:57:39,245
Look forward to hearing your 
thoughts. 

1086
00:57:39,245 --> 00:57:42,500
First gut here is that it's 
going to be really hard to know 

1087
00:57:42,639 --> 00:57:44,718
because we know nothing about 
what this foot reconstruction 

1088
00:57:44,718 --> 00:57:48,708
is, but I think we can latch on 
to some of the preferences that 

1089
00:57:48,708 --> 00:57:50,140
they have. 
Yeah, Matt. 

1090
00:57:50,140 --> 00:57:54,081
I will add sometimes it's hard 
because I have had patients come

1091
00:57:54,081 --> 00:57:56,927
in say total foot reconstruction
it was actually on their pickle 

1092
00:57:56,927 --> 00:58:02,208
uh like a cool which are really 
difficult when i had that yeah 

1093
00:58:02,208 --> 00:58:07,439
that that they do also do foot 
um what was the term that they 

1094
00:58:07,439 --> 00:58:10,159
use again i'm blanking on this 
because i haven't sometimes 

1095
00:58:10,159 --> 00:58:12,457
people refer to it like they 
said total foot reconstruction 

1096
00:58:12,457 --> 00:58:16,979
yeah like yeah so total foot 
reconstruction a lot of times is

1097
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:19,440
done you can actually like if 
they've had like a degenerative 

1098
00:58:19,440 --> 00:58:22,644
arch or like a lot of foot 
collapse they can actually 

1099
00:58:22,644 --> 00:58:25,826
rebuild that it's a very 
intensive surgery the success 

1100
00:58:25,826 --> 00:58:29,823
rate i have not seen great 
success rate i've had a few 

1101
00:58:29,823 --> 00:58:32,638
people that did okay but like 
it's they're really difficult to

1102
00:58:32,638 --> 00:58:35,768
do very very well but they're 
basically trying to reconstruct 

1103
00:58:35,768 --> 00:58:39,206
often the the mid foot is where 
they're kind of focused 

1104
00:58:39,206 --> 00:58:42,179
typically um when that's been 
used and i've heard that 

1105
00:58:42,360 --> 00:58:45,340
phrasing from a surgeon and in 
the literature but people use it

1106
00:58:45,340 --> 00:58:49,030
to also say ankle replacement as
david mentioned so yeah that 

1107
00:58:49,030 --> 00:58:53,075
would also make sense uh take 
probably with the slight 

1108
00:58:53,075 --> 00:58:56,639
pronation but sometimes you'll 
even just will use it for orifs 

1109
00:58:58,699 --> 00:59:01,148
right yeah with fractures and 
stuff open reduction internal 

1110
00:59:01,148 --> 00:59:05,471
fixation for anyone who wants 
the acronym yep and that still 

1111
00:59:05,471 --> 00:59:09,805
means nothing still yeah that's 
okay that's fine i think it's 

1112
00:59:09,805 --> 00:59:13,539
short though you know i think 
that what we have here is 

1113
00:59:13,539 --> 00:59:17,189
previously like the tempest and 
the hurricane those aren't feel 

1114
00:59:17,189 --> 00:59:20,469
comfortable so something that 
has pretty structured stability 

1115
00:59:20,469 --> 00:59:23,872
isn't the direction that they're
feeling good but they want some 

1116
00:59:23,872 --> 00:59:27,397
cushion with a little bit of pop
and the sc trainer love the sc 

1117
00:59:27,397 --> 00:59:30,085
trainer i feel like the sc 
trainer is one of those like 

1118
00:59:30,085 --> 00:59:34,864
what do we have for the sc 
trainer now rest in peace do you

1119
00:59:34,864 --> 00:59:39,817
think the sc um i think it's too
narrow it's such a different 

1120
00:59:39,817 --> 00:59:42,761
it's too narrow This is a wide 
foot person. 

1121
00:59:42,761 --> 00:59:46,024
Like, where's the wide? 
They are going to have a wide 

1122
00:59:46,024 --> 00:59:47,430
version. 
If they're having a wide 

1123
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:49,206
version, then it might be the SC
Rebel. 

1124
00:59:49,206 --> 00:59:51,860
I mean, I love the SC Rebel, but
the only reason why... 

1125
00:59:51,959 --> 00:59:53,639
It doesn't feel like the SC 
Trainer version 1. 

1126
00:59:53,639 --> 00:59:57,783
No, version 1, I feel like it's 
more like Mizuno Neo Vista 3 is 

1127
00:59:57,783 --> 01:00:01,034
kind of probably the closest 
feel I've had personally to the 

1128
01:00:01,034 --> 01:00:04,015
SC Trainer 1. 
Yes, I 100% agree. 

1129
01:00:04,015 --> 01:00:09,574
I don't think anything is ever 
going to match the original SC 

1130
01:00:09,574 --> 01:00:14,364
Trainer 1. i didn't get along 
with it i appreciate it it was a

1131
01:00:14,364 --> 01:00:17,892
lot of chunk it was a lot of 
shoe though man it was and it 

1132
01:00:17,892 --> 01:00:21,357
was heavy for me it was just 
like i don't know i like it a 

1133
01:00:21,357 --> 01:00:26,387
little bit more nimble andrew 
and i had like a five minute 

1134
01:00:26,387 --> 01:00:28,979
conversation the other week on 
that shoe being like oh it was 

1135
01:00:29,100 --> 01:00:32,015
great like if you were beat up 
you just put that on but i think

1136
01:00:32,015 --> 01:00:34,584
the neo avista actually might be
appropriate just because some of

1137
01:00:34,584 --> 01:00:37,312
the new changes actually do 
guide you a little bit laterally

1138
01:00:37,312 --> 01:00:39,739
um while still being kind of 
that soft and bouncy ride. 

1139
01:00:39,899 --> 01:00:42,339
That's actually a great idea, I 
think, from what we're talking 

1140
01:00:42,339 --> 01:00:46,347
about. 
The other shoe that came into my

1141
01:00:46,347 --> 01:00:51,159
mind is the Vamero Premium, 
which is not light, but it is 

1142
01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:52,760
cushioned. 
Vamero Plus, too. 

1143
01:00:52,979 --> 01:00:56,035
But not as much. 
The Premium for me is like... 

1144
01:00:56,035 --> 01:00:59,085
The Premium is close to the SC 
Trainer version 1. 

1145
01:00:59,085 --> 01:01:01,247
You're not wrong. 
Super heavy, really rockered, 

1146
01:01:01,247 --> 01:01:04,840
kind of like, if it hits you 
right, it kind of runs for you. 

1147
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:09,053
Right, but the original SC 
Trainer was weirdly stable 

1148
01:01:09,053 --> 01:01:14,134
because it had that wider base. 
I don't get that in the – 

1149
01:01:14,134 --> 01:01:18,376
although I didn't test a 
finalized product of the Femero 

1150
01:01:18,376 --> 01:01:21,053
Premium. 
But I didn't find that shit 

1151
01:01:21,053 --> 01:01:24,012
overly stable, to be honest. 
I mean, it's wobbly, but it's 

1152
01:01:24,012 --> 01:01:26,329
stable. 
I don't know how to describe 

1153
01:01:26,329 --> 01:01:30,108
that any better than that. 
It's like so wide, and it's just

1154
01:01:30,108 --> 01:01:32,814
like a boat, but it's rockered 
well, and it bounces really 

1155
01:01:32,814 --> 01:01:34,842
well. 
Like how Nate said, if you hit 

1156
01:01:34,842 --> 01:01:38,616
it right, like it kind of just 
runs for you but it's heavy like

1157
01:01:38,616 --> 01:01:42,276
i felt like it like just dragged
my foot down into the next step 

1158
01:01:42,276 --> 01:01:45,504
but oddly enough it like let me 
fall into rhythm yeah you're 

1159
01:01:45,504 --> 01:01:49,264
holding up the mag max so that 
is mag max 2 is it do they have 

1160
01:01:49,264 --> 01:01:52,261
a wide version i feel like if 
they don't have a wide version 

1161
01:01:52,261 --> 01:01:56,174
it wouldn't work yeah that's or 
a wider shoe in general how do 

1162
01:01:56,174 --> 01:02:01,695
you guys feel about like topo 
factor 3 on this is that too 

1163
01:02:01,695 --> 01:02:07,892
unstable yeah yes uh yes okay no
worries I mean, I'm seeing Neo 

1164
01:02:07,892 --> 01:02:11,295
Vista on this. 
What about Saucony Paramount 

1165
01:02:11,295 --> 01:02:14,088
Max? 
How do we feel about that? 

1166
01:02:14,088 --> 01:02:17,390
Oh, that's a great idea. 
That's another wobbly but stable

1167
01:02:17,390 --> 01:02:19,454
one. 
Like, why is it so wobbly, but 

1168
01:02:19,454 --> 01:02:23,138
why does it run so nicely? 
Because it will take you, just 

1169
01:02:23,138 --> 01:02:25,260
because of their geometry 
design, it will take you later. 

1170
01:02:25,340 --> 01:02:29,852
That's a great, so Neo Vista, 
yeah, that was a great idea. 

1171
01:02:29,852 --> 01:02:30,980
Absolutely. 
That's good. 

1172
01:02:30,980 --> 01:02:35,918
I think we're good there. 
We're good. 

1173
01:02:35,918 --> 01:02:39,592
Well, as always, we appreciate 
people reaching out with 

1174
01:02:39,592 --> 01:02:43,680
questions and we're excited to 
continue to hit more in future 

1175
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:45,920
episodes. 
If you're wanting to reach out 

1176
01:02:45,920 --> 01:02:49,959
with ideas or thoughts, please 
pay attention to our socials. 

1177
01:02:49,959 --> 01:02:54,029
We sometimes put out questions 
for people to gather more of 

1178
01:02:54,029 --> 01:02:55,887
your specific questions on 
topics. 

1179
01:02:55,887 --> 01:02:59,418
Also, you can always reach out 
to us at doctorsrunning at 

1180
01:02:59,418 --> 01:03:01,870
gmail.com with things that 
you're curious about, and we'll 

1181
01:03:01,870 --> 01:03:04,300
do our best to answer them here 
in the show. 

1182
01:03:04,739 --> 01:03:06,913
So thanks again for joining us 
and we'll talk to you all next 

1183
01:03:06,913 --> 01:03:07,080
time.