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Hello and welcome to the Doctors
Running podcast where we, a 

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group of doctors of physical 
therapy, discussed the art and 

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science of running and the stuff
that we put on our feet. 

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We are flying by the seat of our
pants today. 

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The round table is jam packed. 
Not really. 

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It's just the founder, Doctor 
Matthew Klein, Doctor David 

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Salas and myself. 
I'm Nathan Brown. 

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This podcast is presented by our
partner Rabbit Rabbit Apparel. 

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They are fantastic partners and 
they offer some really great 

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running apparel. 
If you want 10% off your order 

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during the month of February, 
you can use our special code. 

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That's just for our followers. 
Doctors 10 is the code. 

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That's D OCTOR S10. 
I don't know why I had felt like

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I had to spell it out, but 
Doctors 10 will get you 10% off 

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your order. 
Nice, I think it's kind of funny

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too, we're all wearing different
versions of the same hoodie as 

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if we're all wearing the go to 
sweat hoodie. 

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I will say I'm wearing a hoodie 
right now and the pants because 

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it is 26° right now in this 
garage so I'm trying to stay 

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warm. 
As is the rest. 

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Of in the garage it's 26. 
Yeah, 'cause our garage does not

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like heat very well. 
So any any whatever the 

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temperature is outside, it 
bleeds. 

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Someone in Chicago right now is 
like, I'm sorry, is it -40? 

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Yeah, you know what? 
It's whatever. 

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That's me. 
Nathan's in like -30 or 40°. 

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I have to give a shout out to 
Gianna, Henry, Ray, and then we 

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have a roommate, Josie, right 
now because it's like -10 right 

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now. 
And during recording, I have to 

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turn off the furnace because 
it's right next to me, so it 

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would be loud. 
So shout out to them. 

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They're the real heroes for 
sure. 

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I do love the go to hoodie 
that's. 

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Great. 
So comfortable. 

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Yeah. 
Funny enough, I usually size up 

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for hoodies to like a large, but
this one is a medium and it's 

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perfect. 
Like I would not want a large. 

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It fits awesome. 
Yeah, but I think I got a small 

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and normally I'm the same way, 
like jackets things, I'm always 

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going up to a medium. 
Yeah, not this one small. 

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I'm like, no, Nope, it's 
perfect. 

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It's great. 
Yeah. 

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Cool. 
But let's jump into our in for 

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testing segment. 
This is where we talk about 

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different gear or different 
shoes that we're getting some 

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testing in. 
What are you guys getting your 

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feet in lately? 
What are you running in Matt? 

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Do you want to start? 
Yes, I would love to start. 

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So I have one that I'm a couple 
that I'm actually excited about 

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and one of the things ones that 
I've actually really been 

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enjoying is the Hoka Gabiota 6 
and I I'm going to say this shoe

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is great. 
Nathan, you OK? 

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I was giving you applause for 
saying Gabiota. 

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Oh, oh, got it. 
Yeah, Gabiota. 

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OK, so I can actually speak. 
It's usually this shoe. 

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I know I've gotten better at not
saying that. 

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Like Kayano, this has been 
great. 

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I mean it's not anything crazy. 
It's no super foam, but it is 

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like 10 grams or almost like 
half an ounce lighter than the 

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last version. 
They just refined the geometry 

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on this shoe and I feel like 
this is what I was really hoping

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for out of the Iraqi and I I'm 
going to be very honest, I'm 

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sorry, Hoka, I hated the Iraqi. 
I I was very disappointed in 

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that shoe. 
Foam wasn't very great like just

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kind of like soft foot not and I
didn't feel like it was as 

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supportive, whereas like the 
gabiota is like almost a motion 

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control shoe, but not an bad 
way. 

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This this medial H frame does a 
really good job stability wise 

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without being clunky. 
I've done some up tempo runs in 

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it. 
It's just a great shoe. 

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It was like it's it's a simple 
maximal shoe that doesn't do 

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anything crazy, but they 
executed it super well. 

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It's a little bit wider too. 
So the update is awesome and I'm

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really excited to throw down a 
full review on this thing. 

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It's good so. 
If, if you could change the 

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Arahi to be your ideal Arahi 
because you're looking for that 

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lightweight trainer that's a 
stability trainer and the Rahi 

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is on the lighter side, what 
would you do to make it ideal 

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for you? 
Honestly, I think I would take a

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lot of lessons from the Gaviota 
and go, hey, just like firm with

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the soul a little bit like Hoka 
does. 

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These weird things were like 
they have just different 

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versions of their like expanded 
Eva foams and sometimes it's 

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good, sometimes it's not. 
What they did with the Iraqi, I 

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didn't like. 
What I am not a fan of is again,

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fortunately, the heel bevel is 
medially base, which does make 

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some make it a little clunky. 
But the drops loan off that, you

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know, I kind of roll through it.
But yeah, the rear foot design 

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was not very good on the Iraqi. 
I would have lightened a lot 

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more and like even reduce the 
stack a little bit. 

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I know it's Hoka, but like just 
get that thing light. 

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Like there's already plenty of 
stability models although out 

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there they're starting to all 
look the same. 

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Like make it different, lighten 
it up a little bit, make it a 

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little bit more snappy because 
that's the Rocky was that for 

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years it was like the lighter 
stability trainer that you could

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actually pick the pace up and it
was not soft. 

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It was snappy, it was 
responsive. 

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It was very different from a lot
of things. 

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And I feel like it's lost 
identity right now, whereas the 

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Gabbiota kind of took it. 
So I'd say, yeah, go go back to 

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where what made the Iraqi the 
Iraqi and and people really, 

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really enjoyed it. 
So that's just my feedback. 

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Love it. 
Can I do two more? 

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Sure. 
So the other one that not not as

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sexy of an update is the new 
Inspire 22 from Mizuno. 

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Not very inspiring, you mean? 
It's not very inspiring. 

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It's definitely very different 
than any previous inspire with 

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the new foams with the NRZ NXT, 
unfortunately, just like pretty 

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flat, not like both. 
Also, it's no longer a 12mm drop

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shoe, which is crazy. 
And it feels lower because the 

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the the midsole material is 
softer, but like, yeah, like not

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a great bevel. 
It is definitely supportive. 

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It's just like really oddly 
stiff. 

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And so I think this is a work in
progress. 

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It gives me hope, but it's not 
quite where I was hoping it to 

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be on. 
The upper is kind of a little 

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bit off. 
And Bach did a very good job in 

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his review of kind of talking 
about that. 

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So like, kind of, I think it's 
an in between. 

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Like there's potential there and
I think they're going to get it,

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but they just need another year.
The final one that I'm really 

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excited about is the Hoka Cielo 
X13 point O, which I really 

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enjoyed. 
It's no longer medially 

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unstable. 
In fact, actually it's now 

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laterally unstable. 
So I'm really curious to see how

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Andrea does with this, but 
similar concept. 

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It's soft. 
It's really rockered to me 

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doesn't work as well for like 
really fast stuff, but like 

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getting into a gear and going 
it's definitely a mere a 

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distance shoe. 
So definitely interesting 

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redesign and I'm excited to get 
some more miles on, but I am I 

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don't we're going to see how 
long that else will last so. 

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That pod for you, That pod for 
you, It's in the perfectly 

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terrible position. 
Good for everyone else. 

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Yeah, it's dangerous. 
We'll see if it lasts. 

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You shred so. 
Then David's on the Devin, 

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David's the other side. 
He's like, oh, I can just do 

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whatever and I can take it on 
trail and I'll still survive. 

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And then me, I'm like, I just 
like lightly tap the ground and 

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the Outslook explodes off. 
I'm like, oh. 

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Well, I can go next anyway. 
Well, speak of trails. 

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I have a trail shoe that we're 
reviewing and so far I'm 

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actually really liking it and 
it's the Solomon ultra glide 

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four. 
And for how much shoe there is, 

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I mean this thing's at 41 
millimeters of stack and it I 

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believe it's a 5 or 6mm drop, so
mid 30s thirty 5 or 36 in the 

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four foot. 
This thing is like just under 10

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oz and it's light and it's 
plush. 

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It's not super responsive, but 
again, ultra glide, right, it's 

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meant to just kind of be that 
plush, luxurious, kind of smooth

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rocker and they do that really 
well. 

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I don't want to get dirt 
everywhere. 

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Like I got a lot of like loose 
dirt on here. 

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So I'm going to try and hold 
this gingerly. 

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But lugs are pretty wide apart, 
but they grip really well And I 

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I had no issue. 
I mean, we had some recent rains

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and going through the muddy 
sections, it was fine. 

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I slid on a couple of rocks just
slightly, but otherwise like, I 

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mean, it held up about as good 
as I would want it to hold up 

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for a trail shoot outsole. 
Upper is decently plush, but the

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volume is pretty low. 
It's kind of a weird dichotomy 

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where the materials themselves 
are plush but the fit snug. 

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But it broke in really quickly. 
I had no issues, so actually 

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really liking it. 
I might actually like that more 

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than the most recent Speed Goat 
model for me, which is saying a 

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lot 'cause I really liked the 
Speed Goat model, so we'll see 

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in time. 
Other one written review. 

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Just finished writing it earlier
today so this will be out by the

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time this airs, but that is the 
Puma DV8 Nitro four. 

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We talked about this in other 
podcasts so I won't go super 

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into it. 
All I will say is lightweight, 

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super responsive trainer won't 
work for everybody. 

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The four foot plate is very 
stiff. 

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It is carbon plated, but the 
Nitro foam is responsive. 

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There's plenty of cushioning 
under foot to get what you need 

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done. 
But the four foot will feel 

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firmer because of how stiff that
plate is. 

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Heel could probably beveled a 
little bit better. 

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You know, I feel like at slower 
paces it can feel a touch bumpy 

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and then that gets a little bit 
smoother as that pace picks up. 

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But this is that lightweight 
trainer, just under 9 oz 38 to 

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38mm drop. 
So I mean, this thing can fly if

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you wanted to, and it can be 
that versatile trainer that you 

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might be looking for. 
You just have to try it on and 

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see if it works for you because 
this will be one of those shoes.

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You just have to try it on. 
And I wrote that in the review 

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where like, if it doesn't work 
for you, it probably will really

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not work for you. 
So it's going to be one of those

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like weird ones. 
You just, you just got to try it

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on. 
I know client was one of the 

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people it didn't really work 
for, correct or no. 

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Yeah, it's it's the fit was 
great, right heel transition 

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good. 
Just that 4 foot was too stiff 

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and it was kind of getting to 
the point where like I could run

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in it, but it was starting to 
like make my foot ache. 

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So I was like, oh, this might 
not be the best option for me 

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personally. 
I'm sure others it's going to be

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if that want that stiffness is 
going to. 

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Be yeah if you really like Stiff
4 Totally agree experiences. 

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You do very well. 
Yeah, it's just you gotta like 

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it too. 
Other one here, other trail 

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shoes. 
So I'm gonna be spending some 

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time on the trails coming up 
here already am obviously with 

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the Ultra Glide 4, but still 
have to do my maiden voyage on 

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this shoe. 
But I'm actually really excited 

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about it. 
I know Nate actually is like in 

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the fit of this too, but this is
the Brooks Cascadia Elite. 

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Yeah, got some super foam in 
there. 

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You got Adna gold on the top and
then it looks like a like kind 

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of a chassis layer on the 
bottom. 

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Vibra Mega Grip, I think Elite 
yeah. 

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So it should be sticky, should 
grip well, kind of a booty 

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construction coming up to the 
top there. 

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Everything about it feels good 
and it feels like it should be a

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snappy but plush trail shoe. 
So I'm excited for it. 

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You know, obviously I got to 
finish my miles on the Ultra 

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Glide four and then we'll move 
on to that. 

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So that'll probably be in the 
next week, week and a half. 

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But that's what we have on the 
docket looking forward. 

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Good. 
I'm on the almost there when it 

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comes to return to run, so I'm 
getting excited. 

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I've been putting shoes on and 
doing like little rut jogs 

224
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,040
around the house literally just 
to be like, what does this feel 

225
00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:03,760
like? 
So when I put on the Cascadia 

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00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:08,680
Elite, it gave me the feel of a 
couple other trail shoes that I 

227
00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:10,920
loved. 
Like the the closest one that I 

228
00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,480
felt like the foam felt like was
the hookah. 

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00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:17,800
Oh my gosh, why am I blinking 
right now? 

230
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,520
Right now Tech the next three. 
And, and I think part of that 

231
00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:22,960
too. 
The fit was pretty similar with 

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00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,280
a little bit of the booty 
construction. 

233
00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:25,840
So I'm excited to get to run in 
that one. 

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00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:29,000
The only issue I think for me is
there is some toe spring in that

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00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,720
one which might not agree with 
my big toe very much. 

236
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:37,520
So all right, as always, this in
for testing segment is fueled by

237
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,720
Scratch labs. 
If you want to check out their 

238
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,360
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options, recovery stuff, you can

239
00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,080
go to scratchla-bs.com. 
If you are a first time 

240
00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:49,720
customer, you can use the code 
Doctors of Running that'll get 

241
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,720
you 20% off your order. 
OK, we are going to transition 

242
00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,880
into a new segment for us that 
we're excited to dig into. 

243
00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,880
It is going to be a fact or 
fiction episode. 

244
00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,760
What we did is we reached out to
all of you through our social 

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00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,440
channels and we gathered 
different kind of idioms that 

246
00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,920
people may hear about running or
things that are often put out 

247
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,760
into the ether that are true 
about running. 

248
00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:18,680
And then we get to then talk 
about is this a factor? 

249
00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:21,240
Is this fiction? 
And so we're going to go through

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00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:24,640
this discussion. 
I would say unlike our this or 

251
00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:29,080
that episodes or unlike our buy 
or sell, we are not trying to 

252
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,120
treat these factor fissions as 
totally dichotomous. 

253
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:37,480
There's definitely going to be 
Gray area and some truth and 

254
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:40,560
some fiction, and we'll try to 
tease that out to have good 

255
00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:43,480
discussion about these things. 
So you 2 ready to rock? 

256
00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:45,640
I like that word of dichotomous.
Absolutely. 

257
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,400
Yep, thank you. 
Appreciate it. 

258
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,960
I I actually spent all day 
thinking about how can I work 

259
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,120
dichotomous into the episode. 
I'm kidding. 

260
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,920
That is not how I exist. 
All right is. 

261
00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,600
Is, is this just because you're 
in the process of like get you 

262
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,440
have an article up, you're 
trying to get some review and 

263
00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,640
feedback and you you're taking 
those terms, Maybe I get that. 

264
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:07,400
I did just resubmit it. 
My I submit resubmitted my 

265
00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:11,280
revisions a week ago today or a 
week ago yesterday. 

266
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,600
So we'll see. 
All right, so let's start with 

267
00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,840
our first fact or fiction. 
Here's the statement that 

268
00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:21,920
somebody posed for us. 
If you need orthotics once, you 

269
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,560
need them forever. 
Fact or fiction? 

270
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:29,320
Don't mind if I jump in. 
Sure. 

271
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,960
I'm going to say this is a great
example of there's some. 

272
00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,920
Obviously it depends on the 
person, but across the board, 

273
00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,600
like if I was going to make a 
blanket statement, I would say 

274
00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:46,040
that's fiction. 
And reasoning for that is that 

275
00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,440
orthotics have a variety of 
uses. 

276
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,200
People generally think, oh, once
I have this, like it's how it 

277
00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,640
goes. 
You can definitely use them as 

278
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:54,920
lifelong things. 
For sure. 

279
00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,560
There are certain people that 
may have various and I hate to 

280
00:13:58,560 --> 00:14:01,040
use the phrase deformity because
it sounds very negative or just,

281
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,720
and so maybe anatomical 
variations is the better phrase 

282
00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,400
to go, Hey, you know what? 
Just functionally like you may 

283
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,120
do a little bit better with 
something like this, right? 

284
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:15,160
Like I have a like a four foot 
valgus position where like my 

285
00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,320
first ray and I just said that 
wrong, but I move on. 

286
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,680
My first ray is like elevated. 
So like when I try to get it 

287
00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,200
down on the ground, I collapse 
excessively trying to tow off. 

288
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,960
So would I benefit from maybe 
some additional like a wedge up 

289
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,560
in the front to kind of elevate 
the ground to my first ray? 

290
00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:32,560
Absolutely. 
Do I do that? 

291
00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:34,720
No, because a lot of times I can
get away with that. 

292
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,240
I, I have been lucky enough that
for a lot of things I've been 

293
00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:39,400
able to strengthen my way out of
things. 

294
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,120
Does it maybe contribute to, I 
have ongoing post tib issues on 

295
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,520
and off on that side, you know, 
so it really depends on your 

296
00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:50,600
tolerance and the reason for the
orthotic. 

297
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:53,360
So across the board orthotics 
can function very much like 

298
00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,120
casts for a lot of people where 
a lot of people you should 

299
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,560
consider moving out of them. 
But there are some people that 

300
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,120
there's, there's going to be a 
small population where it's kind

301
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,960
of a more permanent thing. 
And that's totally fine. 

302
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,440
But then you have to kind of 
think, hey, does the shoe I'm 

303
00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:08,560
looking at take that orthotic? 
And that's additional decision 

304
00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:09,840
making. 
But across the board, I'm going 

305
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,880
to say fiction, a large part of 
the population should be able to

306
00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,440
work out of them. 
Yeah, I agree. 

307
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:17,760
I am definitely leaning fiction 
on this one. 

308
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,560
I've and I've seen it first 
hand, many people transition out

309
00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,840
of orthotic usage whether they 
want to or it just kind of 

310
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,640
happened. 
You just you see it both ways on

311
00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:29,200
that. 
But I agree with people that 

312
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,520
have certain anatomic 
variations, they might need some

313
00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:37,440
form of correction to just keep 
them just balanced in a way that

314
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,080
makes sense for their feet. 
And in those situations, 

315
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,800
absolutely please use them. 
You know, but that's not going 

316
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,240
to apply to the larger 
population of people. 

317
00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,760
And there's a lot of people that
they go in for an evaluation of 

318
00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,200
some kind and someone just says,
Oh yeah, you got flat feet, you 

319
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:53,680
need orthotic. 
And then they go and they get 

320
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:58,400
orthotic and then may, they may 
or may not have actually needed 

321
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:00,480
the orthotic is where I'm going 
with this. 

322
00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:05,000
And dynamically maybe they 
function fine and then sometimes

323
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,920
they put the orthotic in and 
then they might actually have 

324
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,280
pain from the orthotic. 
And then they're like, do why am

325
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,440
I, they told me I need this and 
I'm doing this. 

326
00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,320
It's kind of like the classic 
case of the stability shoots you

327
00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:17,680
right? 
You go in and someone says, oh, 

328
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:18,920
you pronate, here's a stability 
shoe. 

329
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,160
It's like why everyone pronates 
like there's a tipping point of 

330
00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:24,400
this stuff where there's a time 
and place for it. 

331
00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,360
But I would say it's fiction. 
I am, I'm not, you know, 

332
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,200
necessarily anti orthotic by any
means. 

333
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:34,240
There's definitely a time and 
place, but I think you have to 

334
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:38,240
look at how you move and truly 
whether or not there is a need 

335
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:41,680
for something anatomic going on.
Yeah, I agree. 

336
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,520
When we look at like the 
literature that is trying to 

337
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,480
examine the use of orthotics for
certain types of injuries, 

338
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,120
usually they're used for, excuse
me, they're usually used for 

339
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,120
foot conditions, plantar fascia 
pain, Achilles tendinopathy, 

340
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,440
post tib, maybe something at the
first ray. 

341
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:03,160
Sometimes they're used for the 
knee as well, but usually for 

342
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:06,280
those foot and ankle things. 
All of the research does show 

343
00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,520
that they're beneficial, but 
they're beneficial for about a 

344
00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,520
four to six week stretch. 
We have these really great 

345
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,000
documents that a bunch of the 
leading researchers put together

346
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,319
called Clinical Practice 
guidelines, and they appraise 

347
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,520
all the literature throughout 
all of the different resources 

348
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,680
and they figure out like what 
recommendation do we have? 

349
00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,280
And there's like a level 
evidence, best level evidence 

350
00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:29,400
that for plantar fascia pain, 
for example, it recommends using

351
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,680
orthotics, but it's a short term
thing. 

352
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:34,680
And I think that's the part that
gets lost, is that that short 

353
00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,520
term is important. 
And. 

354
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,480
I think that. 
Oh, sorry, Matt said that. 

355
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:40,920
Good. 
He said cast, but I think he 

356
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:45,240
meant like crutch where like you
can, yeah, you can use it to 

357
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,200
kind of augment the healing 
process. 

358
00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:50,280
And it can very much be a 
temporary use, and it's not for 

359
00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:55,080
life. 
Yes, I think that there's a 

360
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,360
couple other considerations with
this too. 

361
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:02,120
I think one of them is, are 
certain conditions like you said

362
00:18:02,120 --> 00:18:06,160
David, like anatomic 
abnormalities or true changes, 

363
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,000
fusions that happened or like 
hallux rigidus. 

364
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,120
There are some of these things 
that are probably going to 

365
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:14,720
benefit from long standing 
support, like if you have a true

366
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:18,720
hallux rigidus that your toe 
cannot extend, having an 

367
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,520
orthotic that allows that 
provides that support. 

368
00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,480
But now you can just get a 
carbon plated shoe as well. 

369
00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:25,520
But if you can't, if you don't 
want a carbon plated shoe, but 

370
00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,440
you want like what's called a 
Morton extension, you could add 

371
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,200
something that would help you 
out with every shoe that you 

372
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:35,040
have. 
There's also in my mind this 

373
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,720
balance to of like just because 
you don't need it doesn't mean 

374
00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,440
you shouldn't use it. 
Like if you're somebody who has 

375
00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,840
just gotten along with a certain
orthotic your whole life and 

376
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:47,800
it's working for you, just 
because the evidence says 

377
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:50,480
contrary that it's not needed, 
doesn't mean you shouldn't use 

378
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:51,760
it. 
So I think that there should be 

379
00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:56,000
some flexibility for case use 
and just being like, I like 

380
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,720
this. 
I think it's more comfortable. 

381
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,200
I feel confident when I'm 
wearing this like that. 

382
00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:01,760
I think that goes a long way 
too. 

383
00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:03,920
So just because if the 
literature says one thing 

384
00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:07,360
doesn't mean you you can't go 
One Direction for yourself. 

385
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:08,320
Matt, what were you going to 
say? 

386
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,760
Yeah, that's exactly where I was
going to go. 

387
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,040
Is that we the literature you 
have to ask yourself going, hey,

388
00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,600
do I fit in the population? 
Like if you really want to dig 

389
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,280
into a research study or a 
system, you go, hey, do I 

390
00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,760
actually fit in this population 
right? 

391
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,720
Or am IA unique case? 
And I actually it feels good and

392
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,840
it is helping me feel better. 
And I do tend to have less 

393
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:30,960
injury risk in this group. 
There's there's always going to 

394
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,200
be individual cases where that 
is unofficial. 

395
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:35,040
You're also going to see the 
opposite, right? 

396
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:38,000
Because when you look at 
populations there, a lot of 

397
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,360
times research kind of 
emphasizes the tip of the bell 

398
00:19:41,360 --> 00:19:42,840
curve and it kind of looks at 
the mean. 

399
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:44,440
But none of us are really out 
there. 

400
00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:46,880
We're all kind of spread out. 
Like if you're like me, I'm some

401
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,080
weirdo that's way off this weird
outlier. 

402
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,600
So you have to ask, are you the 
average or you an outlier? 

403
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,360
And then make decisions that are
best for you as a person. 

404
00:19:55,360 --> 00:19:57,920
Let the literature guide you, 
but still decide as an 

405
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,680
individual. 
And hey, like, does this match 

406
00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,560
what's going on with me? 
Does it match my personal needs,

407
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,880
my beliefs, what I found to be 
great? 

408
00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:09,120
And yeah, so it's important to 
remember research is great, but 

409
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,120
don't forget the individual 
experience, too. 

410
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:12,960
You got to balance those. 
It sounds complicated, but it's 

411
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,840
just, it's the reality of the 
situation. 

412
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,880
I think it's helpful. 
I will all say on a on another 

413
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:20,840
fun fact by the way, another 
interesting group. 

414
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:24,240
Sorry, Nathan, that when you 
talk about orthotics and 

415
00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,360
lifelong stuff, I'm super lucky 
right now that I have one of my 

416
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,360
one of my Co faculty. 
I teach prosthetics, orthotics 

417
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,760
and GATE and we get to go. 
He and I have gotten to go work 

418
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,880
with several people that have 
ongoing cerebral palsy. 

419
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,320
And so they've he's been working
with them since they were like 

420
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:40,080
little kids. 
Now they're adults and they're 

421
00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:44,720
watching the progression. 
And even within that group, they

422
00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,600
sometimes move in and out where 
it's like, well, I, it's better 

423
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,920
that you, you have this 
anatomical variation where I 

424
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,280
think you should use this. 
And they go, no, it's not 

425
00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:52,400
comfortable. 
It's make my knee hurt. 

426
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:57,080
So they move out of it and 
you're like, but you might do 

427
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:58,360
better. 
Like no, it's just, it's less 

428
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,000
comfortable. 
And then they may come back to 

429
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,160
it. 
And so that's kind of help these

430
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:04,480
things work is that you kind of,
it's a tool, you use it when you

431
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:05,880
need it. 
And there's going to be some 

432
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,640
types times in your life where 
you might need it and sometimes 

433
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,280
you don't. 
And so being able to kind of go 

434
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,160
in and out and figure out you as
an individual is a very unique 

435
00:21:14,360 --> 00:21:16,200
process. 
I it's not black and white. 

436
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:18,880
It's much more complicated. 
Especially with neuro. 

437
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,800
It's also makes it interesting. 
Yeah, makes it more interesting 

438
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,760
too. 
The last thing I wanted to add 

439
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:29,400
about this is that I think I am 
more on the fiction side for 

440
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,840
full custom orthotics. 
I I just don't know if there's 

441
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,320
as much necessity for those 
unless you are in that specific 

442
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,720
case, use of a very unique 
anatomic abnormality. 

443
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,400
But all of the evidence says 
that prefabricated or ones that 

444
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,920
are made already that you can 
just buy off the shelves have 

445
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,920
just as good outcomes for most 
things as do these custom ones. 

446
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,040
And now insurance usually, at 
least around here, isn't 

447
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,400
covering custom orthotics. 
Then you could be paying, you 

448
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,200
know, 300 bucks for custom 
orthotics when you could get an 

449
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:03,080
over the counter for, you know, 
$30 and he'd get the same 

450
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,520
benefit for the short term use 
that you that the evidence says 

451
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:07,840
it's good for. 
So that was the other thing I 

452
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,480
wanted to add. 
Matt, you had something. 

453
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,200
I would totally agree with some 
of the ones in Southern 

454
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,160
California are people paying 
like 6 to $800.00 for a single 

455
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,840
pair of custom orthodox. 
And you know, all respect to the

456
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,360
people that made those. 
I I know your your skill set is 

457
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:23,600
good, but from a consumer 
standpoint, like if I were you, 

458
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,400
I would try the $40 option that 
has some good evidence behind it

459
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,800
first before you're like, OK, 
maybe I need to go do the six to

460
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,000
$800 one if someone. 
Is listening out there right 

461
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,280
now, when you say the over the 
counter, are we talking 

462
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:38,880
Superfeet? 
What are we talking? 

463
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:44,080
Is there any specific brands? 
That's a really good question. 

464
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,360
It really, yeah, I think it just
depends on what you have 

465
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:49,400
available. 
I'm, I'm a little biased towards

466
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,840
Superfeet only because that's 
kind of what I grew up with and 

467
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,960
the running stores I work with, 
that's what was a kind of a 

468
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,560
primary thing that was sold. 
So that's kind of what I know, 

469
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,360
but there's options. 
Again, it's kind of like shoes, 

470
00:23:00,360 --> 00:23:02,120
like if you find one that fits 
and it works and it's 

471
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:04,640
comfortable, great. 
Try it on first though. 

472
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:10,520
Yeah, I think just with the 
design intent beside behind 

473
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,240
super feet cadence, a couple of 
those like they think about 

474
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,680
running. 
I think that that might be a 

475
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:19,040
nice place to start if you're a 
runner, but from a from a pure 

476
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,760
like what we know, you could go 
to Target or Walmart or 

477
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,000
Walgreens or CVS and and pick 
something up from a doctor 

478
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:29,920
Scholl's or whatever it is. 
Yeah, that was the first care. 

479
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,080
If it feels better that that 
would work too. 

480
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,160
There's even like gel heel cups,
like a non branded thing, like 

481
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,400
you can get that too. 
And if that changes your 

482
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,200
symptoms, then that's the one 
that you could use. 

483
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,160
That's really what it comes down
to in my opinion. 

484
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:48,080
Oh, and yeah, don't get fooled 
by like the I'm going to talk 

485
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,200
crap here, but don't get fooled 
by like the Doctor Scholl's foot

486
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,200
scanner thing. 
Those are totally inaccurate. 

487
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,960
It is not valid to measure 
static arch height or foot shape

488
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,720
and understand that because and 
go, oh, that's how your foot's 

489
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:03,720
going to work while it moves. 
That's not how this works. 

490
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:05,840
So just static and. 
Dynamic function. 

491
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,640
Yeah. 
Stick it in your shoe and go. 

492
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,000
Does this feel good? 
Yes or no. 

493
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,240
Walk around in it. 
That's a lot better than some 

494
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,800
fancy parlor trick going. 
Yeah, I'd buy our product. 

495
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:19,080
Also talking about custom 
orthotics, we're not, No, we're 

496
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,360
not. 
There's a difference to between 

497
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:25,440
custom orthotics and working 
with someone who makes 

498
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,640
modifications to your insoles. 
Because custom orthotics means 

499
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:30,520
you go through this whole 
fabrication process where they 

500
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:33,080
make a full thing. 
But like people can take little 

501
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,320
met pads or make cutouts, make a
little, you know, you go light 

502
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,160
and cut things, that sort of 
thing. 

503
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,760
I wouldn't call that a custom 
orthotic. 

504
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,840
I'd call that, you know, 
modifications, which is also in 

505
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,760
my opinion a great option 
because that's going to be super

506
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,080
cheap or free potentially 
depending on the clinic you're 

507
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,120
at. 
So just don't don't mistake 

508
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,000
fully custom orthotic, which 
you're going to send stuff to a 

509
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,480
lab, they're going to make 
something to these modifications

510
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,840
that you can make to insoles. 
OK, let's go into our second 

511
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,320
factor fiction. 
There's actually two people who 

512
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,280
asked similar or gave a similar 
concept, so I'm going to bring 

513
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,640
both of them up here. 
The first is majority of runs 

514
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,800
should be Zone 2 and the second 
is 8020 running. 

515
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,520
So are both of these fact or 
fiction? 

516
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,320
Before we get in there, David, 
do you just want to talk about 

517
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,000
this concept of Zone 2, talk 
about this concept of 8020? 

518
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,480
So we're all on the same page. 
Yeah, when we're talking about 

519
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,680
Zone 2, and that one's a tricky 
one, depending on who you're 

520
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800
talking to, cause exercise 
physiologists will tell you that

521
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,160
there's different zones 
depending on who is saying what,

522
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,760
you know, like, so sometimes 
there's three, sometimes there's

523
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,640
5, whatever. 
But I think the general concept 

524
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:49,800
is that Zone 2 is essentially A 
relatively easy intensity that 

525
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,840
you can talk and still do the 
activity while you're doing the 

526
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:56,320
activity. 
Like you can do it without 

527
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,320
straining yourself too hard, 
essentially. 

528
00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:04,160
Now the 8020 I'm actually less 
familiar with, but correct me if

529
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:09,160
I'm wrong, is that 80% being at 
easy intensities and 20% being 

530
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,480
at high intensities? 
Yeah, that's that would make 

531
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:13,160
sense. 
That's the simplified version. 

532
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:19,560
Yes, yeah, the simplified 
version of basically having 

533
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:25,320
majority easy versus a fragment 
being intense and high 

534
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,000
intensity. 
And I am going to take a very 

535
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,040
middle stance on this. 
I'm going to say it depends. 

536
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,320
And I, I guess in that way, I 
guess I have to say fiction. 

537
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,240
But I think if you are training 
seven days a week, it's probably

538
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,680
going to be closer to the fact 
where it's like this is a 

539
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,120
gradient, right? 
Like it depends on how often 

540
00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:48,520
you're running and what you're 
doing. 

541
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:51,240
Like if you're only running a 
couple times a week and you have

542
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:53,840
plenty of time to recover, 
there's no reason why you can't 

543
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,280
actually push it a little bit 
and run into some of that zone 3

544
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,200
or 4. 
Like there's nothing wrong with 

545
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,920
that if you're recovering. 
However, if you are doing a lot 

546
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,480
of mileage, like kind of by the 
nature of what you're doing, 

547
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,080
you're going to slip into more 
easy mileage than hard mileage. 

548
00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,800
That's just going to happen. 
You can't go hard all of the 

549
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,800
time. 
And like if we're looking at 

550
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,520
someone running like let's say a
60 mile a week and you're, I 

551
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,240
don't know, let's say you have 
an easy day on Monday and then 

552
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,640
you're on the track on Tuesday. 
And then you have a easy longish

553
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,440
on Wednesday and Thursday. 
And then Friday you're hitting 

554
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,240
Rd. intervals and then 
Saturday's easy Sunday long run,

555
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,280
right? 
Like if you're looking at that 

556
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:37,240
kind of a basic structure, most 
of those miles are going to be 

557
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,320
easy, right? 
You're only going hard a couple 

558
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,800
of times a week. 
But if you're only going 3-4 

559
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,280
times a week, that percentage 
could very easily shift. 

560
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:48,720
And I don't see anything wrong 
with that. 

561
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:53,240
There can definitely be a 
quality over quantity and as 

562
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,120
long as you can recover from it.
And we see that a lot with the 

563
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:59,120
middle distance athletes where 
some people don't run all of the

564
00:27:59,120 --> 00:28:02,720
time and sometimes their mileage
may be limited and they might 

565
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,840
have a pretty high percentage of
hard track efforts where they're

566
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:12,120
doing fine. 
Yeah, I think there's there's, 

567
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,200
I'm with you David, where there 
is a gradient here of people 

568
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,480
where this is going to be more 
fact and others are going to be 

569
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,120
more fiction. 
The 1st is like if you are a 

570
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,040
short distance athlete, 8020 is 
not your gig. 

571
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,880
I think that the 8020 
conversation and majority of 

572
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:32,760
runs being zoned 2 comes into 
play for distance runners and 

573
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,960
marathoners, even 5K 
potentially, but even then maybe

574
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,080
there's some changes there. 
I think some of the validity 

575
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,160
behind this concept is that is 
the concept of the said 

576
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,320
principle where you're going to 
have specific adaptations to 

577
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:52,160
impose demands SAID. 
And so if you go out and you are

578
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:57,040
creating a stimulus on your 
anaerobic system over and over 

579
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,360
and over, you're going to have 
responses that make your 

580
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,920
anaerobic system better. 
But if you want to run a 

581
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,440
marathon, you need your aerobic 
system to be firing on all 

582
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,960
cylinders. 
So you want to give it an 

583
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:12,120
aerobic stimulus so that you 
adapt to aerobic stimuli. 

584
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,160
So there is some evidence in 
certain populations, and this is

585
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:20,160
the other kind of maybe fact and
fiction at the same time that 

586
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,640
say that if you keep yourself in
this aerobic zone, this zone 2, 

587
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,400
you get certain changes, You get
increased number of 

588
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,640
mitochondria, you get increased 
number of capillaries that are 

589
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,200
building. 
So you can only really build 

590
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,840
that if you have enough aerobic 
stimulus and you don't spend too

591
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,840
much of your time above zone 2, 
because then you're going to get

592
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,640
different types of adaptations. 
So it depends on what types of 

593
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:45,200
adaptations that you want. 
And I think that the other issue

594
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,840
that newer, I think this applies
to newer runners as well, an 

595
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,760
issue that newer runners run 
into from my coaching 

596
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,400
experiences, it's that they run 
too hard too often without 

597
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,120
knowing it. 
And so sometimes giving them 

598
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,440
some sort of a barrier of this 
zone 2 is helpful. 

599
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,320
And David, you gave some of the 
cues that I give them, like you 

600
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:07,280
should be able to have a full 
conversation without changing 

601
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,080
your breath and you don't need, 
you shouldn't need to take 

602
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,480
breaks within your sentences. 
That would be zone 2. 

603
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,320
Some people like to use heart 
rate. 

604
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,400
I think that's great. 
Some of the athletes that I'm 

605
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,840
that I've coached too much data 
is not helpful. 

606
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,880
So I go more like the 
qualitative version of easy. 

607
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,000
But I think that helps people 
understand like, oh, easy for me

608
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,080
as a new runner actually means 
much slower than I thought 

609
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,520
because I can run an an 8 minute
mile, but I didn't know how 

610
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,960
stressful that was on my body, 
which means I wasn't getting the

611
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,240
adaptations that I want. 
And in addition, I can't recover

612
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,600
quickly enough to get my good 
workouts in and to recover 

613
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,360
enough to not get hurt six weeks
into my training program. 

614
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:53,840
So I think the 8020 rule has 
more fact for me, particularly 

615
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,160
with newer runners. 
I think that it's easier to 

616
00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,520
naturally follows this Zone 2 
concept in 8020 when you're 

617
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,400
experienced because you really 
understand what easy really 

618
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,480
means. 
And then I think that the the 

619
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,560
fiction comes in depending on 
what your event is or certain 

620
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,520
populations where this hasn't 
been studied. 

621
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,240
Like I said, I think most of the
studies on this stuff is done in

622
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,120
certain male populations and 
there's different stuff that I 

623
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,720
know. 
I've heard Stacy Sims talk about

624
00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:25,640
this and some of her discussions
about women and postmenopausal 

625
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,000
or perimenopausal may have some 
differences in how valuable this

626
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,000
is or not, but that's not my 
expertise area, so I won't say 

627
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,040
more than that. 
Matt, do you have any thoughts? 

628
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,200
Yeah, I think you both, I don't 
really have anything to add. 

629
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,160
I think you both hit on the head
where I think for the majority 

630
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,000
runners, like probably a lot of 
people that are listening or a 

631
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,920
lot of the recreational runners 
that I think it's very true. 

632
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,200
And we're coming at this from 
both a performance as well as a 

633
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,960
injury reduction kind of way of 
going. 

634
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,640
Yeah, make sure like give your 
body time to adapt to what 

635
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,240
you're doing. 
And I don't think people really 

636
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,840
realize when people go hard that
it takes a while, especially the

637
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:04,120
newer runner that's not used to 
that kind of intense. 

638
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,920
Like it's one thing to go out 
for a jog, it's a very different

639
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,680
thing to then add intensity 
there and have to recover from 

640
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,600
that. 
So it takes a lot longer than 

641
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,800
people think. 
And it can take sometimes up to 

642
00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,640
a week, week and 1/2 for your 
body to actually adapt to the 

643
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,280
stimulus, sometimes longer from 
a hard workout. 

644
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,040
And there's some good evidence 
on that, that it takes a while. 

645
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,640
So you know, that's why like, 
yeah, you still need to get 

646
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,640
mileage in depending on who you 
are because you still need from 

647
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,240
basic standpoint of like 
building tissue resilience, but 

648
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,320
more importantly, like the 
cardiovascular, like building 

649
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,360
aerobic function, like training 
your mitochondrial, like you're 

650
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,800
not training, but like allowing 
mitochondrial adaption to be 

651
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,520
more efficient with energy. 
Like majority of that stuff 

652
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,280
still happens at at the easy 
level and then you can recover 

653
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,400
from that. 
Where is the workouts? 

654
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,440
They're pretty potent. 
So there are obviously 

655
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,720
exceptions to people with 
different distances or different

656
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,240
body types or different 
adaptations. 

657
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,960
And so it varies. 
But I think overall there's a 

658
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,240
decent amount of of truth to 
this that I think it's a good 

659
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,120
rule to follow. 
Is it perfect for everybody? 

660
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,200
No, but I think you both hit it 
on the head of yeah, this is not

661
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:05,680
a bad thing to pay attention to.
Cool. 

662
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,000
All right, we're going to go 
into our next one here, which 

663
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,360
might be a bit simpler. 
And the next one factor fiction 

664
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,760
writing cadence. 
The number of times your foot 

665
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,160
hits the ground in a minute has 
to be 180 plus steps. 

666
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,200
So at least 180 steps per minute
needs to be the cadence. 

667
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,880
Oh, fiction. 
Yeah, this is a fiction. 

668
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:34,320
Hard, hard fiction Now, again, 
because what the evidence 

669
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,320
actually shows is that it's like
human variation, people 

670
00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:40,280
different limb lengths, 
different muscle capacity is 

671
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,600
like different, all kinds of 
stuff that plays into what an 

672
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,400
optimal cadence is. 
And there's also like you're 

673
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,280
going to have a different 
cadence if you're running super 

674
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,000
fast versus slow. 
Like you shouldn't try to hold 

675
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,480
the same thing all the time or 
it's going to like work you in 

676
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,280
really weird ways. 
Like yes, if there's a certain 

677
00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:58,200
pace you're trying to hit, cool.
If you're trying to reduce 

678
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,560
stress and kind of change the 
load in a different area yet 

679
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:01,920
great. 
But it's not to hit a certain 

680
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,160
number. 
Most of the evidence is like 

681
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,440
increasing your cadence by like 
10% or like a 10 beats or 

682
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,080
something like that. 
I think not 10%, right. 

683
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:09,560
That was right. 
It's. 

684
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,800
Like no, that's correct. 
So higher it's most 10%. 

685
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,800
Most of the cadence research 
comes out of Haider Scheitz lab 

686
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:17,480
and what they did in their 
studies is they looked at 

687
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,880
differences in like Patel 
femoral loading forces when you 

688
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:27,120
change the your cadence to 5% or
10% higher or lower than 

689
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,040
yourself selected. 
So they basically found that 

690
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:33,800
when you increased your cadence 
by 5:00 and then 10%, you had a 

691
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,280
continual decrease in the total 
Patel femoral joint loading 

692
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,000
forces for example. 
There was other things they 

693
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,760
looked at total work at the hip,
knee, ankle shifts around and it

694
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,199
decreases total work as you 
increase, but it's not from a 

695
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:49,520
given number, it's from yourself
selected, which I think is much 

696
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,320
more important than a 180. 
Yeah. 

697
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,280
So I think 180 is a nice, it's 
nice, simple target, but that's 

698
00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,720
not how people work. 
So fiction that it needs to be 

699
00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:01,480
more and. 
The 180. 

700
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,280
That's a lot, that's a lot of 
yeah for like an easy, like if 

701
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,800
you're running fast, that's one 
thing. 

702
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,520
Like there's people who during 
races are like hitting like 200 

703
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,680
like at but, and, but when 
you're running, you know, an 

704
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,320
easy pace like your zone 2 or 
you're 80%, like there's a lot 

705
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,440
of other things I'd like to 
focus on when I'm just trying to

706
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,280
chill out. 
And I worry that increase trying

707
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,280
to force that cadence will then 
force pace and then forces it 

708
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:31,440
out of being a recovery run. 
I think the 180 story all 

709
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,440
stemmed from somebody taking 
observations at an elite level 

710
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,480
10K race and they were trying to
find the average cadence that 

711
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,120
was going on and they found it 
was 180. 

712
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:44,280
And then that that observation, 
that study took off and then 180

713
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,160
became this gold standard, even 
though again, it was at this 

714
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,680
elite level race and not for 
recreational running or the 

715
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,640
general population. 
So I think that's helpful to 

716
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,760
know that that number is not 
substantiated by, you know, 

717
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,880
typical runners like us, or at 
least me. 

718
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,640
I think the other I think y'all 
are pretty good runners. 

719
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:11,600
The other part that I think 
there's another couple, there's 

720
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,080
another study that I've looked 
into a bit that looked at the 

721
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,920
risk of bone stress injury for 
people who had a cadence. 

722
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:21,280
Well, they, they were looking at
cadence and bone stress injury 

723
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:27,640
and they found that people above
171 compared to those below 162 

724
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,640
in that lower cadence below 162 
group had a significantly higher

725
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:37,320
risk of a bone stress injury. 
And so again, it's not a perfect

726
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,000
number thing, but if you're 
sitting in that really low 

727
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,440
category and have a history of 
bone stress injury, when I'm 

728
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,440
working with individuals like 
that, it's a no brainer to work 

729
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,400
on cadence because the 
consequences of cadence 

730
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,560
retraining is pretty low. 
Again, starting with like a 5% 

731
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:57,000
increase because overall the 
total workload goes down. 

732
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:01,000
And the second thing that I like
about it is that the studies 

733
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,680
that look at do people kind of 
adopt A new cadence, it only 

734
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,480
takes two to four weeks of 
consistent training with it. 

735
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,800
So it's a pretty low hanging 
fruit that if somebody has a 

736
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,240
history of bone stress injury 
and they're below that 

737
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,760
threshold, I'm like, hey, let's,
let's work on this. 

738
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:21,520
Let's find 5 to 10%, do some 
metronome training and go from 

739
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,280
there. 
But absolutely not 180 is not 

740
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,880
necessary. 
And imagine, I don't know, 

741
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:32,240
imagine running an 11 minute 
mile with if you're like sick, 

742
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:36,840
if you're 646411 minute mile and
trying to run at 180, you'd be 

743
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,440
like like running on your tip 
toes. 

744
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,040
That's not cool. 
I think. 

745
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,360
That's not cool. 
I think there's some routes to 

746
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,880
the four minute mile too, where 
it was like if you could hit 180

747
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,560
steps per 400 like that was a 
thing, but I don't know. 

748
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,320
Interesting. 
This is anecdotal. 

749
00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:01,120
I'm kind of going off the rails 
here, but yeah, definitely 

750
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,320
fiction. 
I don't hit 180. 

751
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:10,640
Granted I'm pretty mid, but like
even when I ran sub 15 in the 

752
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:16,160
five Ki wasn't hitting one 80s. 
So like I I I tend to be like, 

753
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:21,600
what if my watch is accurate? 
At least it's like probably 174 

754
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,400
to 176. 
Not horribly far off, but I like

755
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,200
I have to really push if I'm 
like like I got to try and turn 

756
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,760
my legs over if I'm going to go 
north of 180. 

757
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,960
And yeah, I don't know, it's 
just not my legs. 

758
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,360
I got long lanky legs like 
trying to get those to turn over

759
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,160
are that that can be hard 
sometimes. 

760
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,760
I get better bang from buck 
putting power into the legs and 

761
00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,000
I do like going quicker if that 
makes sense. 

762
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:53,520
Totally cool. 
Well, our next one here is back 

763
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,440
to shoes and the fact or fiction
is more cushion is better and 

764
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,680
the other one that somebody else
submitted was more cushion is 

765
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,800
better for your knees. 
So is that fact or fiction. 

766
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,120
You can either clump those 
together or kind of separate 

767
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,320
them out, whatever sounds best 
to you all. 

768
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,520
I thought I thought you were. 
Just going to jump in like 

769
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,240
super. 
Quick, like impulsively. 

770
00:39:15,240 --> 00:39:21,160
I was like, yeah, I was like, 
yeah, I'm going to say absolute 

771
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,920
fiction. 
And we have lots of evidence on 

772
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,280
the fact that just because you 
have more cushioning doesn't 

773
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,080
actually mean you have more. 
It may, it will give you the 

774
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,720
sensation of war under foot, but
we know from a bio mechanic 

775
00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:34,440
standpoint that your body 
actually adapts to that. 

776
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,040
And So what people tend to do, 
not everybody, but a large 

777
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,600
portion of the population 
actually tend to land harder in 

778
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:43,080
a more cushioned shoes and you 
can actually have increased 

779
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:46,360
internal joint loading. 
So that's actually not 

780
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:48,680
necessarily true. 
It may give you the sensation 

781
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,920
for certain people. 
Other people may feel super 

782
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,120
slowish and actually more 
sluggish and more sore just 

783
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,920
because you may also be 
stiffening your landing 'cause 

784
00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,880
you have a more the hairily 
unstable or less proprioceptive 

785
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,040
input underneath your foot. 
So yeah, that's not necessarily 

786
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,640
true. 
There's more physical protection

787
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,120
like from the elements. 
Like, yeah, taller shoe means 

788
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,080
the nail that you just stepped 
on is going to probably do a 

789
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,800
little less damage 'cause 
there's more foam. 

790
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:14,640
I, I mean, I, you know, you talk
about protection, right? 

791
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,520
But you know, but the actual 
like cushioning property, no. 

792
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,400
And then it's really interesting
that the second question about 

793
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,360
the knee was asked because I, 
people are kind of going back 

794
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,080
and forth on this right now. 
We're like super shoes, rocker 

795
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:29,400
shoes. 
Like for longest time the 

796
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,240
evidence was that when you have 
these higher stack height shoes,

797
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:35,560
a lot, some of the workload, a 
lot of the workload might get 

798
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:37,800
shifted away from the foot and 
ankle, actually go up to the hip

799
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,080
and knee. 
Whereas then we were kind of 

800
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:42,000
disagreeing with that. 
There's some of the evidence was

801
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:43,760
maybe not as good. 
But now we're seeing a couple 

802
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,800
new studies coming out from some
really, really smart PhD 

803
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:49,600
students. 
Actually we're doing a great job

804
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,120
that yeah, it's similar. 
It's like, yeah, it's the large 

805
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,160
and you need a rocker platform 
for a more cushioned shoe 

806
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:58,240
because that's the only we are 
going to maintain forward 

807
00:40:58,240 --> 00:41:00,960
momentum. 
But just the geometry and the 

808
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,960
bio mechanics of those shoes are
going to shift things likely 

809
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,360
away from the ankle up to the 
knee and hip unless things are 

810
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,000
too stiff. 
And then in that case, the ankle

811
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,240
might actually still have to 
come back in and end up working 

812
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,800
harder to overcome the stiff 
thing. 

813
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:17,840
So yeah, it's fiction actually 
that it provides more protection

814
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,280
for the knee joints, even though
there's a lot of people that are

815
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,360
absolutely going to feel like 
that. 

816
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,080
We've, I think Nathan did a 
really good job of describing 

817
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,320
this in a previous episode where
it's like, yeah, you it might 

818
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:31,120
feel like it, but it might just 
be because you're landing stiff 

819
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:32,680
when you're going through less 
range of motion. 

820
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,360
And if you have some kind of 
irritation at the knee joint, 

821
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,800
you just may not be going 
through the full range of motion

822
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,360
and hitting that point. 
It's not that it's like better 

823
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:41,680
or worse. 
It's just a, you're just 

824
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,760
stiffening up the landing and 
you may feel like it, but you 

825
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,600
still have increased internal 
joint loading. 

826
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:50,520
So yeah, it's not that 
straightforward. 

827
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,360
So absolute fiction for both of 
us, but some people will feel 

828
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,040
absolutely better. 
And they're like, my knees feel 

829
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:57,600
amazing now. 
It's like, great, that's not how

830
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,760
that's working, but if you feel 
better, cool. 

831
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:04,040
Whenever, whenever I get these 
statements of like more cushion 

832
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:07,400
is better, I, my first gut is 
always like, what it what do you

833
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,400
mean better? 
Better for what Better in what 

834
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:12,600
way? 
Because I think there might be 

835
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:17,160
something to be said about more 
cushion being better to be able 

836
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,240
to create a geometry and foam 
compound that can make a shoe 

837
00:42:20,240 --> 00:42:23,400
that improves running economy. 
Because I think that's, that's 

838
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:26,760
clear. 
Like if we take a 5mm shoe 

839
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,400
versus a 40mm shoe, we could 
probably get better running 

840
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,200
economy if we have the right 
stuff in there. 

841
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:34,560
And so I think that there's 
something there. 

842
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,440
But from a I, I agree with 
everything else you said, Matt, 

843
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:38,600
I'm not going to belabor the 
point. 

844
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:40,600
I agree with you. 
Complete fiction. 

845
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,200
Yeah. 
The, the, the challenge though 

846
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:46,840
is like Speaking of like larger 
size, there is a point there's 

847
00:42:46,840 --> 00:42:49,600
kind of a tipping point though, 
like once you get to those 40 

848
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,360
plus millimeter, then you still 
have to factor in the fact that 

849
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:55,000
one of the best ways to prove a 
running economy is to make a 

850
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,600
shoe lighter, right? 
Is that the heavier it is, that 

851
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:02,640
it's like per every 100 gram, 
100 grams, it's a 1% increase in

852
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,880
running economy effort. 
Or like every 100 grams you take

853
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,600
away, it's a 1% improvement. 
But weight does factor in. 

854
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:11,720
And that's the challenge right 
now with all the maximal stuff 

855
00:43:11,720 --> 00:43:14,120
is like, yeah, some of the 
phones are getting better, but 

856
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,720
you get a big shoot, still 
heavy. 

857
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,680
And that that has its own 
factor. 

858
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:21,880
So sometimes it evens out, 
sometimes it doesn't. 

859
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,720
You can have different 
responders, but I'll stop. 

860
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:28,520
No, it was all valid points. 
I think it was good and to the 

861
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,720
point too earlier of the person 
switching to let's say something

862
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,800
higher stack and rocker that 
feels better on their knee. 

863
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,440
Like there could just be a 
chance that the geometry lines 

864
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,000
up with their mechanics and they
feel good and the shoe that they

865
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:43,720
were in previously just didn't 
really work that well for them 

866
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,480
for whatever other reason. 
So even though the internal 

867
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:49,320
joint loading might actually be 
higher, right? 

868
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:53,040
So there's all kinds of reasons 
for why you might feel better. 

869
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:55,280
But yeah, I agree, I'm a fiction
on this as well. 

870
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,320
I I don't think I can add too 
much to what you guys already 

871
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:00,560
said at this point. 
Well, let's stick with the 

872
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,480
statement about the knees then. 
But not about shoes, fact or 

873
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,360
fiction. 
Running is bad for your knees. 

874
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,240
I don't. 
I think this is going to be a 

875
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:17,800
gradient thing. 
Again, I think for 90, I'll say 

876
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:27,400
98% of our listeners, it will be
a fiction, but too much of 

877
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,760
anything can be a bad thing. 
And if you're running just 

878
00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,840
massive mileage and just 
pounding your legs, like we're 

879
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,720
talking pretty excessive here. 
But like if you're really 

880
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:43,800
getting after it day in, day out
for years on end, like you can 

881
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:46,200
see some arthritic changes and 
stuff like that pretty early and

882
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,400
that knee can start to wear down
a little bit. 

883
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,200
But this is usually not in the 
recreational population. 

884
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,040
If anything, they see better 
improvements in their knee 

885
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,160
health. 
And like, again, I'm talking 

886
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,280
about an extreme here where 
people are they're not just 

887
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,720
running a lot, they're also 
running hard a lot. 

888
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,600
Like, this is like, like full 
time. 

889
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,360
This is their job, you know like
and that's not to scare any pro 

890
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:14,000
athletes that are listening to 
this either, but there is a 

891
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,320
tipping point where too much 
running can end U becoming bad. 

892
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:23,240
So it's not like it's entirely 
fiction, but I think for a very 

893
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:28,320
massive majority of the 
population it will be beneficial

894
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,240
for your niece. 
When you look at David, to your 

895
00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:34,320
point about the professional 
athlete, you look at any 

896
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,960
professional sport, you don't 
look at NFL players and be like 

897
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:38,880
what you're doing. 
You don't look at an offensive 

898
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,400
lineman. 
What you're doing for all of 

899
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,360
your workouts, your dieting, you
know, gaining weight in many 

900
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:47,760
different ways for the purpose 
of your job is healthier, Good 

901
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:50,400
for you. 
Professional professional 

902
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,320
athletes are doing it because 
it's their job like not because 

903
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:58,360
it's the healthy thing to do it.
So I think you're and that's 

904
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,720
what the study shows. 
Like there was big studies that 

905
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,280
demonstrate that running is 
protective against me 

906
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,560
osteoarthritis for most of the 
population. 

907
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,680
So I, I call this, as you said, 
mostly fiction. 

908
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,520
I think the fact comes into 
special groups like you said, if

909
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:19,440
you are extremely high mileage 
for a long period of time that 

910
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,160
could be one thing. 
I think the other ones are 

911
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,800
certain populations of of people
like I think about people with 

912
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:29,880
advanced OA or some even some 
gradient of OA. 

913
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:32,680
Running may or may not be OK for
you. 

914
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,640
And just because you have OA 
already does not mean that 

915
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:39,120
running is bad for you. 
You will know if it's bad for 

916
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,560
you if it changes your symptoms,
in fact, because if it does not 

917
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,440
change your symptoms and you 
feel fine with running it, 

918
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,480
running, then at whatever volume
that is, is probably helping 

919
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,520
keep the cartilage that exists 
healthy. 

920
00:46:52,640 --> 00:46:55,640
So then it's good for you. 
Whereas someone else with OA, 

921
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,480
you may try to go for a run. 
Your knee blows up the next day,

922
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,440
extremely swollen, lots of 
redness, lots of warmth. 

923
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,920
And you even try to do it by the
letter of the law and really 

924
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,440
slowly work your way in and it 
just can't handle that amount of

925
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:11,600
loading, then sure, maybe that 
knee can't handle it and then 

926
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,160
it's not good for your knees. 
And that would be, again, that 

927
00:47:14,160 --> 00:47:18,160
small population or somebody who
has some other history of severe

928
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:22,280
injury of their knees that is 
predisposing them to abnormal 

929
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,080
loading. 
Like if you were in the era 

930
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:28,080
where they were doing 
minisectomies left and right and

931
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:31,160
they took out 80% of your 
meniscus, high mileage training 

932
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:32,800
may not be the smartest thing 
for you. 

933
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,640
And if you don't know what that 
is and you've never had one, 

934
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:40,240
then don't worry about it. 
But but I think for again, I 

935
00:47:40,240 --> 00:47:42,680
agree with you, David, large, 
large, large majority. 

936
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:47,600
This is fiction. 
Running is beneficial for your 

937
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:52,640
knees and helps keep them robust
and and our cartilage is fed 

938
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:55,240
through loading. 
Cartilage doesn't have blood 

939
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:57,320
flow. 
So you need to have that impact.

940
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,280
Pushes out the old stuff, allows
new nutrients to come in, and 

941
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,520
it's good for you. 
I love that you brought up the 

942
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:05,800
lineman because the lifestyle of
a lineman. 

943
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,960
Dude, being a professional 
athlete is just not good for 

944
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,480
you. 
I don't think I've met any. 

945
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,040
Like when I was at Kaiser Sunset
in downtown LA, you get all 

946
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:16,240
kinds of people, some amazing 
people that come through. 

947
00:48:16,240 --> 00:48:18,560
So it's like it was, I was very 
fortunate to do my fellowship 

948
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:20,440
there. 
But like you meet all these ex 

949
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:22,840
pro athletes and you're like, 
what the heck happened to you? 

950
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,840
Like, oh, I was like, you know, 
played in the NFL for years. 

951
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,920
I'm like, I want to say this to 
you, but you look terrible. 

952
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:32,520
Like that's, it's not good. 
Like so like, that's why like 

953
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:34,640
anybody that I've met and I 
don't work with a lot of 

954
00:48:34,640 --> 00:48:37,160
professional athletes, but like,
I think people have gotten 

955
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,400
smarter about going, what is, 
what do I, you know, I need to 

956
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,720
push my body for performance to 
get every dollar I can out of 

957
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:44,360
it. 
But then also going long term, 

958
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,320
what's this going to do to me? 
Like what changes do I need to 

959
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,600
make and what do I need to think
about from a longevity 

960
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:50,160
perspective? 
And I think there's some good 

961
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:52,760
conversations being had, but 
we're still have people that are

962
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,080
being pushed to the absolute 
beyond the limit. 

963
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,520
And you're seeing just crazy 
stuff that, you know, like 

964
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,800
having an ACL tear and then 
coming back two to three months 

965
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:01,800
later is just not good for you 
at all. 

966
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:03,720
That is terrible. 
And you're going to have 

967
00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:05,800
significant, there's 
consequences for it, but you're 

968
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:06,760
getting paid billions of 
dollars. 

969
00:49:06,760 --> 00:49:10,040
So I'm not judging, but it's not
good for you, no matter how much

970
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,520
money. 
To be fair, in the NBA it's a 

971
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,720
year. 
Yeah, that's it. 

972
00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:18,640
Yeah, not every sport, but yeah,
it's, it's, it's interesting. 

973
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,960
But to, to Nathan's point, by 
the way, like and, and David's 

974
00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:24,960
point, you know, it is 
population specific where 

975
00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:26,880
there's some very good 
systematic views that have shown

976
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:30,480
that running in moderate amounts
for the recreation runner is 

977
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:34,000
protective and it can actually 
be, it can be beneficial. 

978
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,720
The groups that tend to actually
have the increased risk of OA 

979
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:40,440
are the ones that are either not
active or the ones that are like

980
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,400
the, the people that are 
competitive and running 

981
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:43,840
excessive mileage and stuff like
that. 

982
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,280
So they actually have very 
similar rates of osteoarthritis,

983
00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:48,000
the ones that are only ones that
are lower, the ones that are 

984
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,000
doing moderate amounts. 
And then you also have to 

985
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,760
realize that we're now learning 
that some of our tissues are 

986
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,040
more adaptive than we thought. 
Like there's been some very 

987
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,760
interesting long term studies on
cartilage and tissues and going,

988
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,720
wait, this stuff actually adapts
to load. 

989
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:04,360
We thought it just degenerates 
and that's actually not the case

990
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,600
for everyone. 
And there's like done some super

991
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,520
cool studies where they falled, 
followed ultra marathoners 

992
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,040
through I think it was like 
Transylvania or whatever and 

993
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,880
they had a portable MI riot unit
and they found that the 

994
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,320
cartilage didn't actually 
decrease, it actually 

995
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,200
hypertrophied and adapt to the 
load with some of their 

996
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,360
training. 
You're like, oh, that's 

997
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:26,400
interesting. 
So yeah, but as Nathan also 

998
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:28,640
pointed out, if you are getting 
symptoms and the joint is 

999
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,440
reacting negatively, either this
may not be the best for you or 

1000
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,000
it, you know, if things are 
really that bad and starting to 

1001
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,760
impact the function, your daily 
activities, you might want to 

1002
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:40,960
consider depending on your where
you are, like if you've done 

1003
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:42,800
rehab and things aren't 
improving and you've gone 

1004
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:43,880
through all the conservative 
care. 

1005
00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:48,000
There's systematic reviews for 
every lower body joint for 

1006
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,840
return to running post joint 
replacement. 

1007
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:50,960
A lot of them it's actually 
positive. 

1008
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:52,520
Like a lot of people can do 
that. 

1009
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:56,840
We're still learning, but hip, 
knee, ankle, like there's, 

1010
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,360
there's research out there and 
it sounds like the answer for a 

1011
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:00,840
lot of people if you do the 
right thing and you ran 

1012
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,040
beforehand, yes. 
So. 

1013
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:05,960
It's good. 
All right. 

1014
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,960
Our next one here is back to 
shoes and it's factor fiction. 

1015
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:16,560
Barefoot shoes cause injuries. 
What was the quote from Corey on

1016
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:20,640
the Super shoe thing where it 
was like shoes don't hurt 

1017
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,000
people, people hurt people? 
I was. 

1018
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,320
Just yeah, because. 
What I had in my head is like 

1019
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:31,680
that was great A0 shoe coming 
out and like like hitting 

1020
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:35,440
someone with a stick. 
The shoe hits the person. 

1021
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:38,960
You. 
Open the box yeah, you open the 

1022
00:51:38,960 --> 00:51:42,920
box and it just smacks you in 
the face yeah, zero. 

1023
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:46,000
If you're listening, I I do want
to, we do want to see that 

1024
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,240
commercial please that. 
'D be really funny, that. 

1025
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,160
'D be hilarious. 
I think this is, this is 

1026
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,640
fiction. 
Yeah, I think this is fiction to

1027
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:57,800
the to the point. 
That's exactly what I was going 

1028
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,560
to draw from too. 
It's not the shoe, it's how the 

1029
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:04,760
person uses the shoe. 
So if you have never ran in a 

1030
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,760
barefoot shoe and you run 40 
miles a week and you've been 

1031
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:10,800
running in the New Balance 1080 
and then you go run 40 miles a 

1032
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:15,400
week in a in a 0 shoe or a 
Vibram or whatever barefoot type

1033
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,280
shoe you want, you're probably 
going to get hurt. 

1034
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,760
But that's not the shoes fault. 
That's your fault for 

1035
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:25,480
transitioning too quickly. 
So I think that there was a lot 

1036
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,000
of this was very popular in the 
literature back in like the 20 

1037
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,640
tens. 
There were big symposiums 

1038
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,600
looking at barefoot running and 
the what happened was that there

1039
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,680
were studies that looked at the 
prevalence of injuries and 

1040
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:43,960
people who used minimalist shoes
and they were very high, lots of

1041
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:48,120
foot bone stress injuries. 
But it wasn't the shoe's fault. 

1042
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,240
It was how they were being used 
and how they're being 

1043
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,800
transitioned to. 
I think what needs to also be 

1044
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,480
talked about is the flip side 
where there's a lot of studies 

1045
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,400
that tried to look at can these 
shoes actually reduce injury? 

1046
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:04,640
Because when you are a chronic 
user of minimalist footwear, you

1047
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,320
do get adaptations in your feet 
that would be positive bone 

1048
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:11,080
density, muscle strength, like a
lot of that stuff does happen. 

1049
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,880
And so then the question is 
using these, does it actually 

1050
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:16,800
prevent injuries? 
And there's not evidence for 

1051
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,440
that either. 
So I think that this is, this is

1052
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,080
they just the, the evidence is 
limited and it's weak right now.

1053
00:53:23,240 --> 00:53:25,040
And so I just, I don't think 
it's there. 

1054
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:29,960
And, and so we're in this space 
where it depends on how the 

1055
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:34,160
person chooses to utilize shoes 
for their training. 

1056
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,480
Are you going to become a 
barefoot runner and reap some of

1057
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,440
those potential benefits from 
it? 

1058
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,920
And then I would, I use the word
potential on purpose because 

1059
00:53:41,920 --> 00:53:46,320
they aren't totally proven yet. 
If so, do it right and they're 

1060
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:47,840
not going to, it's not going to 
be a problem. 

1061
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:52,200
So I, I think there's also 
special populations that need to

1062
00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,120
consider if barefoot is right 
for you. 

1063
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:59,080
Like for me right now with my 
big toe, probably not the best 

1064
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:02,920
choice for me because of the 
ligament tear that I had and how

1065
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:04,720
it kind of flares up and gets 
irritated. 

1066
00:54:04,720 --> 00:54:06,320
So it's going to depend on the 
person. 

1067
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:08,880
But no, barefoot shoes don't 
cause injuries. 

1068
00:54:08,880 --> 00:54:10,840
I also don't think they're 
necessarily protective against 

1069
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,320
injuries. 
That's where I'm at. 

1070
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,240
Yep. 
I'll be quick. 

1071
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:19,400
I, I look at it almost how I 
look at track spikes like if you

1072
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,840
haven't run in them in a year 
when you go into track season, 

1073
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:25,240
you like ease into this stuff, 
right? 

1074
00:54:25,240 --> 00:54:28,720
Like you might wear it at the 
last Rep of your workout or the 

1075
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:31,160
last two. 
And then like that slowly 

1076
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,000
becomes a little bit more and a 
little bit more. 

1077
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,880
And you, most programs you don't
do the entire workout in it 

1078
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,680
either you change halfway 
through or whenever you have a 

1079
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,360
sufficient point to do it and 
kind of build and adapt that 

1080
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:46,080
stimulus so that when race day 
comes, your legs don't freak out

1081
00:54:46,080 --> 00:54:48,920
when you wear spikes. 
Cause those are minimalist, 

1082
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:50,320
right? 
Although they're less minimalist

1083
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:51,440
now. 
I mean, what the limits? 

1084
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:54,080
Like what 20 mils? 
I think they're, they're 

1085
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:57,320
actually getting kind of high. 
Like Dragonfly isn't like flimsy

1086
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:02,680
anymore or the Adidas Savanti. 
That the new geometries are 

1087
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:05,960
making them like negative drops.
So they're like super 

1088
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,240
aggressive. 
So probably even more so. 

1089
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:11,200
But people also don't run their 
40 miles a week. 

1090
00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:19,720
I hope hope not. 
I I will add that minimal shoes,

1091
00:55:19,720 --> 00:55:21,400
barefoot stuff. 
It's a tool right? 

1092
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,240
If you grew up being in minimal 
shoes all the time and being 

1093
00:55:25,240 --> 00:55:28,040
barefoot all the time, you will 
probably have a leg up, no pun 

1094
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:29,880
intended, on being able to do 
this stuff. 

1095
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:31,920
Or maybe you grew up running 
barefoot and you have 

1096
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:35,120
experienced in your tissues have
adapted in big conditioned 

1097
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:37,320
appropriately. 
But most people have not, and 

1098
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:38,800
some of the literature has 
suggested it can. 

1099
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,760
If you really want to transition
to this stuff, if you want to be

1100
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,360
smart about this, it should take
you 6 to 9 months to safe to 

1101
00:55:45,360 --> 00:55:50,040
appropriately transition into 
doing minimal stuff full time. 

1102
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,040
Most people like maybe like 1/2 
mile on the track or like easing

1103
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,200
the stuff, using it as a foot 
strength in your lower body 

1104
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:58,160
strengthening tool. 
That's where it's going to be a 

1105
00:55:58,160 --> 00:56:01,680
lot better full time. 
There's a lot of requirements to

1106
00:56:01,680 --> 00:56:05,200
be able to do this well. 
You need to have adequate calf 

1107
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,400
and Achilles function. 
Like you got to be able to do 

1108
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:11,280
2025 heel, single leg heel races
without without missing a beat. 

1109
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:14,440
You got to be able to do single 
leg hops and not miss a beat and

1110
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,080
be fully functional, have good 
tendon and calf function. 

1111
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,160
You got to have good ankle 
dorsiflexion and good toe 

1112
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,760
mobility because now you can't. 
The shoes not there to help 

1113
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:28,000
facilitate you, it's all on you.
So time and keep working on all 

1114
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,000
these things, yeah, then it 
actually might be a great tool 

1115
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,320
for you. 
And if you have the appropriate 

1116
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:33,600
environment where it is 
appropriate. 

1117
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:36,520
But most people, they don't have
the time to do that. 

1118
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,440
They're not going to put the 
time in or they may have either 

1119
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,880
permanent things where their 
bodies just a little more at 

1120
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,720
risk or they just haven't had a 
condition to do that where 

1121
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:49,280
there's a reason we have shoes. 
And so, yeah, fiction that it 

1122
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,120
caused, it absolutely caused 
injuries. 

1123
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:54,320
Does it put certain populations 
at increase for injury? 

1124
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,320
Absolutely, Right. 
But not across the board. 

1125
00:56:57,600 --> 00:57:00,680
And so the injury rates, like if
you look across all populations,

1126
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,560
maximal versus minimal, that's 
not different. 

1127
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:06,120
When you start looking at sub 
populations, that's where things

1128
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:07,240
get a little bit more 
interesting. 

1129
00:57:07,240 --> 00:57:09,560
But absolute. 
Yeah, fiction. 

1130
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:11,640
Does it mean everybody should 
get a pair of barefoot shoes to 

1131
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,200
start running barefoot? 
Absolutely not. 

1132
00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:15,440
I don't want to see you, no 
offense. 

1133
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:19,480
Don't do stupid things. 
Ease into it. 

1134
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:22,480
We got a few more. 
This next one is. 

1135
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:26,080
Still shoe related, kind of kind
of opposite end of the spectrum 

1136
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,280
I think you could argue and fact
or fiction super shoes don't 

1137
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:33,680
work for slower runners. 
Can I can I say something really

1138
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:34,480
quick? 
Sure. 

1139
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:36,920
I got to eat my words because I 
think I was. 

1140
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,040
Really harsh. 
On a lot of people when they 

1141
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,440
were first going to be like slow
runners absolutely shouldn't use

1142
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:42,640
these. 
And then people were like, you 

1143
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,200
suck mad. 
I'm like, oh, my bad. 

1144
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,680
Like you're what? 
You're like you're speedist to 

1145
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:47,800
them. 
Like I that's not. 

1146
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,040
I'm trying to like help people 
make better decisions. 

1147
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:53,640
But I don't think it's that they
don't make they. 

1148
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,160
I think they do. 
I think these shoes do improve 

1149
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:57,480
economy. 
And we've seen some from 

1150
00:57:57,480 --> 00:57:59,840
literature that, yeah, even in 
slow runners that they like 

1151
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:00,720
them. 
It feels good. 

1152
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,840
I think so. 
What was the question again? 

1153
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,280
Super shoes don't work for slow 
runners. 

1154
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:07,800
I don't. 
Again, I don't know if that 

1155
00:58:07,800 --> 00:58:11,240
means they're not employable. 
Like they won't, like you can't 

1156
00:58:11,240 --> 00:58:14,280
employ them if you are a slower 
runner, they won't join your 

1157
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:17,720
company or what. 
But yeah, I think I'm going to 

1158
00:58:17,720 --> 00:58:21,640
say that's that's fiction. 
I think they they improve 

1159
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:24,160
running economy across a wide 
variety of people. 

1160
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:29,280
Is it the best option for a 
newer or slower runner? 

1161
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,680
That's the question, right? 
Because they are inherently less

1162
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:35,800
stable, they're more aggressive 
and they're not always more 

1163
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:37,000
comfortable. 
People are like, oh, it's 

1164
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,880
bouncy, but then you have the 
increase stiffness. 

1165
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:41,920
And if it's not lining up with 
you and the speed that you're 

1166
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:44,080
going, it may not be the best 
tool. 

1167
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,000
Is it? 
Is it absolutely not going to 

1168
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,640
help them? 
There's plenty of people that 

1169
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:49,440
are going to do super well. 
So absolute fiction. 

1170
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,280
But I also still think that 
shoes are tools and you should 

1171
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,880
be choosing the right tool for 
the right speed and purse. 

1172
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:58,080
You're going. 
And I think a lot of slow 

1173
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:01,400
runners of vapor flies may not 
unless it's really comfortable 

1174
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,080
for you, it's probably not the 
best option. 

1175
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,080
Like cloud Boom Max. 
Yeah, I think there's there's 

1176
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:17,400
Zing. 
If you're if this is your first 

1177
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:20,480
time listening, I'm sorry. 
This is a long running joke so 

1178
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:26,320
my my most. 
Anticipated shoe of 2025 and I 

1179
00:59:26,320 --> 00:59:28,160
hated it. 
I just love that you thought I 

1180
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:29,880
was being earnest at first. 
So you were. 

1181
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:31,360
Just rolling with me. 
It took me a SEC. 

1182
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:32,880
Yeah. 
Oh yeah. 

1183
00:59:32,880 --> 00:59:34,520
Like, oh, wait a minute. 
God. 

1184
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:36,240
I'm going to sit here 
contemplating life. 

1185
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:40,160
And it's I'm just going to wait 
till a single, single tear drops

1186
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,880
down my my cheek. 
Come on odd. 

1187
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:46,760
Do a better. 
Like there's so much hope of 

1188
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,920
running economy for every tier. 
Every tier. 

1189
00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:55,040
So no, I think, I think for the 
person that mechanics line up 

1190
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:57,920
and they're and they have they 
ease into these things just like

1191
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:00,680
barefoot stuff like you, it 
feels good, but you should ease 

1192
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:02,840
into it. 
I don't think it's a it's a 

1193
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,480
problem, but I think you need to
ask yourself, is it the best 

1194
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:09,360
tool and is it really matching 
you and is it really making you 

1195
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:13,080
better or is it potentially 
increasing your injury risk 

1196
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:16,720
because it's too aggressive for 
how it's it's just not designed 

1197
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:19,600
for the speed that you're going.
And I think there are shoes that

1198
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:22,040
are getting the word, seeing 
some more, you know, even though

1199
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,480
I don't like it, the Cloudbo 
Max, you know, if there are 

1200
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,040
better shoes that are being 
designed for this purpose and 

1201
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,320
that might be a better option. 
But technically that's still 

1202
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,480
technically, even though it 
doesn't feel like it, it's 

1203
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:37,160
technically a super shoe being 
maximal super foam with a plate.

1204
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,040
So. 
So yeah, I'm saying fiction. 

1205
01:00:40,040 --> 01:00:44,240
Yeah, I'm at fiction as well. 
Actually, I'll give a shout out 

1206
01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:47,880
to Jonah Rosner, 'cause he broke
this down pretty recently on his

1207
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:50,520
Instagram. 
But there was this study coming 

1208
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:54,000
out that like there was this 
idea. 

1209
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,120
That I was kind of pasted that 
like. 

1210
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:58,560
Slower runners don't respond to 
super issues. 

1211
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,360
It was kind of the message that 
people were getting, but that 

1212
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,440
wasn't at all what the study was
saying. 

1213
01:01:03,440 --> 01:01:05,400
And it's like maybe if you're 
going faster, you. 

1214
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:07,960
Might be more. 
Of a responder and get more out 

1215
01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:09,200
of it. 
But that doesn't mean that 

1216
01:01:09,200 --> 01:01:12,760
someone who's slower won't see 
running economy benefits either,

1217
01:01:13,120 --> 01:01:15,000
right? 
Like this stuff is a spectrum. 

1218
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:20,560
But I think as you go deeper 
into the question, like, yes, 

1219
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:23,000
like maybe it makes you more 
economic, but you do have to 

1220
01:01:23,000 --> 01:01:24,680
make the decision whether or not
it's right for you. 

1221
01:01:24,680 --> 01:01:26,840
Like I think there are 
situations where something might

1222
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,800
be more economic, but maybe it's
not the right choice if it 

1223
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:33,040
doesn't line up with a mechanic.
And like, yeah, the science says

1224
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,920
you're doing better, but if you 
hate the shoe, like don't wear 

1225
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:38,360
it. 
But I think there's definitely a

1226
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:42,040
population that can benefit from
running quote UN quote slower, 

1227
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,000
you know, and still respond like
I I don't think that it's a hard

1228
01:01:46,280 --> 01:01:49,040
no, you know, on those. 
And I've been pretty vocal about

1229
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:53,400
that in the past too. 
But yeah, yeah, I I agree. 

1230
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:55,160
I think that the questions 
about. 

1231
01:01:55,640 --> 01:01:59,000
Is this the right shoe for me? 
Hangs true whether you're 

1232
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:03,440
running a 530 minute mile or a 
10 minute mile because you got 

1233
01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:04,920
to figure out does it line up 
with mechanics? 

1234
01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:06,160
Is it comfortable? 
Does it fit right? 

1235
01:02:06,160 --> 01:02:08,040
Like those are the same 
questions whether you are 

1236
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:14,800
running again fast or slower. 
I agree the small studies that 

1237
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:18,680
are out suggest maybe the amount
of running economy benefit is a 

1238
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:20,120
little bit less. 
And I think that's where that 

1239
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:22,880
adage comes from that it's it 
doesn't work and it's not worth 

1240
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:24,160
it. 
And I just don't ascribe fully 

1241
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:26,040
to that. 
If it is comfortable for you, it

1242
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:30,600
lines up for you, you think you 
can take it 26 or 13 or 5K or 

1243
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,000
whatever you're running have at 
it. 

1244
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:35,680
So I I I think this is also 
fiction. 

1245
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:38,520
I will say though, some of these
these super. 

1246
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,200
Shoes are very uncomfortable 
running at slower paces in and 

1247
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:44,480
they're just like awkward like 
feels like for you Bambi. 

1248
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,560
Yeah, that's fair for me. 
But somebody else might have the

1249
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,360
completely opposite experience. 
So 'cause you're you're slower 

1250
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,560
like your 10 minute mile. 
Is a different effort level than

1251
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:56,920
someone else's 10 minute mile 
wouldn't and that effort may 

1252
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,680
play into like where you strike 
on your foot and how you put the

1253
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:02,280
force through. 
Yeah, it's kind of interesting. 

1254
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:06,240
All right. 
We got kind of two more. 

1255
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:08,920
One real one, and then. 
One just for David. 

1256
01:03:09,480 --> 01:03:11,360
We'll save the last one only for
David. 

1257
01:03:11,920 --> 01:03:15,720
OK, so the first one here is 
factor fiction. 

1258
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:19,000
Soft surfaces reduce injury 
risks. 

1259
01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:23,120
So this would be like running on
concrete versus running on grass

1260
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,720
or running on trail, not like 
technical trail with changing 

1261
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:28,440
directions. 
Let's assume a straight running 

1262
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:33,160
line, just the surface itself. 
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

1263
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,920
'Cause if if you just do normal 
trail, a lot of the evidence is.

1264
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,800
Like the injuries just change 
like when you typically have 

1265
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:43,760
more like traumatic like ankle 
sprains or falls or things like 

1266
01:03:43,760 --> 01:03:47,360
that or like when you go to the 
trail world, yeah, versus Rd. 

1267
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:48,720
you get more of the overuse. 
OK, so you're saying? 

1268
01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:50,040
Like just the. 
Surface. 

1269
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:52,040
Everything else controlled 
surface. 

1270
01:03:52,040 --> 01:03:55,280
Yeah, substitute, substitute 
sidewalk. 

1271
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,840
For grass or substitute sidewalk
for dirt. 

1272
01:03:58,080 --> 01:04:00,680
Yeah, something like that. 
I feel like there's or or a 

1273
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:02,920
track there's like the gold. 
Standard answer and. 

1274
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:04,840
Then there's like like based. 
Off of the research that we 

1275
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:08,840
know, then there's like the 
anecdotal answer, but yes, I 

1276
01:04:08,840 --> 01:04:10,080
think it's and that's helpful 
right now. 

1277
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:11,360
Yeah, I know. 
Like off. 

1278
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:13,200
Of what we know, like it's very 
limited. 

1279
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:17,320
And it's hard to run studies on 
injury risk because it kind of 

1280
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:21,160
implies that you're checking 
injuries like, and when you're 

1281
01:04:21,160 --> 01:04:24,280
doing human subject studies, 
people don't like it when you 

1282
01:04:24,280 --> 01:04:28,000
hurt people. 
What's doing injury stuff? 

1283
01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:30,960
Like when people, people like 
love to claim prevention, doing 

1284
01:04:30,960 --> 01:04:33,440
prevention studies are so hard 
because you basically have to 

1285
01:04:33,440 --> 01:04:36,680
set groups up and go, OK, I'm 
going to let's go get hurt, 

1286
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:38,600
please. 
So we have data and it's like, 

1287
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,640
yeah. 
And IRB is like. 

1288
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:44,640
Really hard. 
No. 

1289
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,160
Or you like nobody gets hurt and
you're like, great, I have no 

1290
01:04:47,160 --> 01:04:48,880
data. 
I have no idea what's happening 

1291
01:04:48,880 --> 01:04:50,360
out there. 
Or you get lucky, like please go

1292
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:53,200
get injured. 
I mean, I mean, like could be 

1293
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:53,720
data points. 
Yeah. 

1294
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,760
So with that caveat, there's 
nothing that I know of 

1295
01:04:55,800 --> 01:05:00,080
specifically. 
That says if you run on this 

1296
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,840
terrain and if you run on this 
like you will not get injured if

1297
01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,960
you run on this compared to this
other surface being whether it 

1298
01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,600
be grass versus concrete, dirt 
versus concrete, concrete versus

1299
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:13,760
grass. 
However, if I'm being anecdotal,

1300
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:19,240
like any time you can have. 
Variability on your. 

1301
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,760
Body and with training that can 
only be a good thing and that's 

1302
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,680
a variety of stimulus, but that 
doesn't necessarily mean less 

1303
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:28,920
injury risk per SE. 
It just means that you're 

1304
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:31,920
getting more stimulus into your 
body from different angles and 

1305
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:36,200
different pieces and you know 
that kind of stuff, and that can

1306
01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:40,800
only make you a better athlete. 
So I'm pro running on different 

1307
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:45,240
surfaces, but I can't say 
definitively that I know beyond 

1308
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:48,240
a doubt that based on X research
that that is the case. 

1309
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:51,640
Running on a certain surface 
will decrease your injury risk 

1310
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:53,040
compared to running on another 
surface. 

1311
01:05:54,680 --> 01:05:57,560
So I did a little bit of a. 
Lit review on this like. 

1312
01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:00,600
Very rudimentary. 
So there's a lot of studies I 

1313
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:04,800
could be missing, but the stuff 
that I saw was less about injury

1314
01:06:05,240 --> 01:06:09,440
prevalence or incidence and more
about the mechanics on different

1315
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:12,920
surfaces. 
So some of those studies that I 

1316
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:15,800
looked at, we're looking at like
changes in the amount of 

1317
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:22,480
vertical acceleration and so on.
A They, they compared concrete 

1318
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:26,920
to track to grass, and they 
basically found that there was a

1319
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:31,520
small difference between the 
amount of acceleration on 

1320
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:36,560
concrete in comparison to track 
and grass, that the acceleration

1321
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,720
was lower. 
So higher acceleration means 

1322
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:43,080
overall more forces and impact 
is going to be happening. 

1323
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:47,400
So that could lead someone to 
the conclusion that there's less

1324
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:51,080
impact, there's less, and that 
the even that statement that I 

1325
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:52,880
just made is a little bit of a 
reach and a little bit of a 

1326
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:54,640
stretch. 
That's not exactly how it works,

1327
01:06:54,880 --> 01:06:57,520
but that's where I think this 
concept could come from. 

1328
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,600
But there's nothing that I saw 
somebody could come in and show 

1329
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:02,760
us the lid. 
That would be great. 

1330
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:07,480
That looks at people who run 
solely on grass versus those who

1331
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,760
run solely on concrete have a 
higher or lower injury risk. 

1332
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,280
Like David said that I don't 
think that stuff exists yet. 

1333
01:07:14,080 --> 01:07:17,240
And I do think it's a different 
question to say, should I run 

1334
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,840
all my like we have the Green 
Circle Trail, which is like a, 

1335
01:07:19,880 --> 01:07:22,560
a, a lovely. 
It's basically like running on 

1336
01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,800
road, except it's a little bit 
softer. 

1337
01:07:25,120 --> 01:07:29,080
Like would it be better for me 
to always run on that softer 

1338
01:07:29,080 --> 01:07:30,840
surface than always run on 
concrete? 

1339
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,240
I don't even think I'd want to 
say that because we just got 

1340
01:07:33,240 --> 01:07:36,320
done talking about cushioned 
shoes and that's the same 

1341
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:38,280
concept. 
Like is running in a higher 

1342
01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:42,120
cushion, more soft shoe better 
than running in a less cushioned

1343
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:46,560
lower stack shoe? 
No, it just changes how much 

1344
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,080
load is going through your body 
and how you absorb the load. 

1345
01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:53,800
So I think that to David's 
point, it's more about providing

1346
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:57,400
variability than it is about 
picking one versus the other. 

1347
01:07:57,960 --> 01:08:00,840
Movement variability is good in 
such a high repetitive sport. 

1348
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:05,280
So that's where I'm at on it. 
So I take it as fiction right 

1349
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,120
now and think that variability 
is more important. 

1350
01:08:09,040 --> 01:08:12,080
Matt, you have anything? 
Do I think I'm I'm. 

1351
01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:16,279
I'm really getting torn. 
Apart by bias on this, we're 

1352
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:19,960
like, I know the answer should 
be like you need variability is 

1353
01:08:19,960 --> 01:08:22,200
good exposure, different 
surfaces, but man, like I'm 

1354
01:08:22,200 --> 01:08:25,600
getting ripped apart by like the
softer, like the old adage of 

1355
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,319
like, oh, run on soft surfaces. 
Like it'll be if you'll be like 

1356
01:08:28,319 --> 01:08:31,399
I had friends of mine before I 
went left for Southern 

1357
01:08:31,399 --> 01:08:33,080
California. 
I was running a bunch with bunch

1358
01:08:33,080 --> 01:08:35,000
of Kenyans. 
They were sponsored by Nike, 

1359
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,880
Adidas here in Portland before 
I, like moved down to California

1360
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:42,960
and they, they swore. 
But like every run, they, they 

1361
01:08:42,960 --> 01:08:45,960
wanted to be on softer surfaces,
like, Oh, no, like degree, like 

1362
01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:47,479
you're not going to get injured,
all the stuff. 

1363
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,040
And I'm like, then I was sitting
there confused, being like, I 

1364
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:54,279
don't know of any literature 
that actually has compared that.

1365
01:08:55,279 --> 01:08:57,840
So yeah, I've like, I have a lot
of bias just about things I've 

1366
01:08:57,840 --> 01:09:00,160
heard, but I'm holding my tongue
and going, no, I think the 

1367
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,439
answer is variability. 
But I, I don't know. 

1368
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:05,640
I don't think, I have no idea. 
Yeah. 

1369
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,279
Yeah, because. 
It could be, could be the other 

1370
01:09:08,279 --> 01:09:11,800
way. 
And you can't even take like 

1371
01:09:12,120 --> 01:09:14,840
comparison of of global regions,
right? 

1372
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:19,160
Like areas where they run pretty
much always on dirt versus 

1373
01:09:19,160 --> 01:09:21,920
running on concrete. 
There's too many other things 

1374
01:09:21,920 --> 01:09:24,680
that are different. 
So we can't like compare those 

1375
01:09:24,680 --> 01:09:28,720
two populations. 
All right, so I have one more. 

1376
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,720
David, you're the only. 
One that gets to answer for this

1377
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,880
one, and I think you you are our
resident expert here and 

1378
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,800
therefore get to answer it. 
Fact or fiction. 

1379
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,920
All shoes can be trail shoes if 
you try hard enough. 

1380
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:49,880
I mean, the short answer is 
fact. 

1381
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:54,960
The long. 
Answer is please don't do that. 

1382
01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:00,600
Wait, sorry, did you just say 
that like I'm not going to take 

1383
01:10:00,600 --> 01:10:03,640
I don't have the hookah Cielo 
X1. 3.0 but like I'm not going 

1384
01:10:03,640 --> 01:10:06,600
to take the 2.0 on trails, 
that's way too unstable. 

1385
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:08,480
But will you? 
But you might? 

1386
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:12,480
No, but would you? 
But would you I have like for 

1387
01:10:12,480 --> 01:10:14,160
whatever reason on that? 
She's trying. 

1388
01:10:14,160 --> 01:10:17,400
A hard time like just running on
cambered roads like I'm like I 

1389
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,760
was like. 
If I if I'm tiptoeing on a. 

1390
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,920
Cambered Rd. 
Like I ain't taking that on 

1391
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:25,800
trails. 
You kidding me? 

1392
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:28,760
Well, the nice part about trails
is like that. 

1393
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:30,920
It's not as camber, right? 
Like if there's more 

1394
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,960
variability. 
So yeah, you have greater 

1395
01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:34,520
variety. 
So actually, maybe even better 

1396
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:37,960
actually. 
You know the extra holes will 

1397
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:39,680
create more traction and grip on
the on. 

1398
01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:43,560
The on the dirt, yeah, for every
then the dirt fills in the the. 

1399
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:44,840
Holes. 
The rocks. 

1400
01:10:44,880 --> 01:10:48,000
Like wedges or fills in between 
the foam you it stabilizes. 

1401
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,400
The stabilization, it's good. 
Yeah, exactly. 

1402
01:10:50,440 --> 01:10:55,640
You might be on to something 
here maybe, but you know, I 

1403
01:10:55,640 --> 01:10:57,120
mean. 
Yes, David does. 

1404
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,960
All the shoes you get, you're 
just all testing miles. 

1405
01:10:59,960 --> 01:11:02,120
Are done on trail whether it's 
appropriate or not and just be 

1406
01:11:02,120 --> 01:11:05,120
like, well, it's funny too 
because like trails out here, 

1407
01:11:05,120 --> 01:11:07,440
there's like. 
Two wildly different kinds of 

1408
01:11:07,440 --> 01:11:11,160
trails, you know, like our front
country is very, very steep. 

1409
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,560
I mean, you can go from close to
sea level up to 4000 in like a 

1410
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,160
few miles like it, it's pretty 
steep. 

1411
01:11:19,440 --> 01:11:21,920
And then there's also a lot of 
bluff trails that are relatively

1412
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:26,640
flat. 
You know, and like in I, I don't

1413
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:29,840
know, I run a variety of 
different footings and pathways,

1414
01:11:29,840 --> 01:11:34,120
but I don't go into the really 
aggressive trails that we have 

1415
01:11:34,120 --> 01:11:36,720
here very often. 
And when I do go into those 

1416
01:11:36,720 --> 01:11:44,640
trails, I do wear trail shoes. 
With that said, if it's like, 

1417
01:11:44,640 --> 01:11:46,360
let's say the. 
Horse Trail. 

1418
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:51,200
Or the more Mesa or like a lot 
of the runnable trails, like Oh 

1419
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:54,000
yeah, I'll wear whatever, you 
know, And I guess some of the 

1420
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,680
front country trails like I 
guess, I guess I'm partially 

1421
01:11:56,680 --> 01:12:00,800
lying, but I if I know I'm going
to go through something that's 

1422
01:12:00,800 --> 01:12:03,880
rocky, like on certain sections 
of our mountain, you won't catch

1423
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,160
me wearing regular shoes. 
It's a contrary to public 

1424
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:09,120
opinion. 
You might, you might, I will put

1425
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:10,360
trails. 
You might also wear it as 

1426
01:12:10,360 --> 01:12:13,520
appropriate. 
You'll still wear the evil pro 

1427
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:15,160
one on the. 
Rocky surfaces though? 

1428
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:17,280
Yeah, of course. 
No, but that counts under like 

1429
01:12:17,280 --> 01:12:19,000
the horsey. 
Area like. 

1430
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:23,880
That's it's trail, but like like
I could run in the Evo one on 

1431
01:12:23,880 --> 01:12:25,120
those. 
It'd be like the green circle 

1432
01:12:25,120 --> 01:12:26,800
around here. 
I'd be a little bit more uneven 

1433
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:29,120
than. 
That but like it'd be OK. 

1434
01:12:29,560 --> 01:12:32,440
Like it's, yeah, it's, it's a. 
Runnable trail. 

1435
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:35,560
Like it's not like, yeah, it's 
not like a packed gravel where 

1436
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:39,560
it's uniform but not Rd. like it
is a trail, but it's not it's 

1437
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:42,880
not bad. 
Fantastic. 

1438
01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:44,480
Well. 
Thank you everyone for. 

1439
01:12:44,480 --> 01:12:47,080
Joining us, I hope you enjoyed 
the new format. 

1440
01:12:47,080 --> 01:12:50,520
I think it would be fun to come 
back to this and get more factor

1441
01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:53,680
fiction statements that people 
have heard and they want to hear

1442
01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:55,880
us talk about. 
So if you want to reach out to 

1443
01:12:55,880 --> 01:12:59,440
us with anything that you have 
to contribute, we really enjoy 

1444
01:12:59,440 --> 01:13:02,640
people commenting on YouTube. 
If you want to add your thoughts

1445
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,720
about these factor fictions, we 
very much welcome discussion on 

1446
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:09,960
this kind of stuff. 
We don't claim to be the and all

1447
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:12,400
be all when it comes to these 
conversations. 

1448
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:16,040
You can also reach out to us at 
doctorsrunning@gmail.com. 

1449
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:19,280
But thank you everybody for 
joining us and have a great rest

1450
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:19,720
of your day.