1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,520 The presenting partner of this podcast is Rabbit Apparel. 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:10,520 If you're looking for anything from base layers for cold 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:13,400 weather running up to singlets that you can use in the summer, 4 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:15,440 Rabbit has definitely got you covered. 5 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:18,680 You can head over to runinrabbit.com to check out 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,600 everything that they may offer and you can use the code Doctors 7 00:00:22,640 --> 00:00:27,000 10 during the month of February to get 10% off your first order. 8 00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:36,400 Hello everyone, and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast 9 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,360 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discuss the 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,640 art and the science of the stuff we're putting on our feet. 11 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,040 Today's episode is powered by Rabbit, and thanks so much to 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:50,000 Rabbit for being our new podcast sponsor for 2026 today. 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,520 We've got an awesome guest with us today, Jen Saint Jean, who I 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,800 met through in the local running scene and who has just been such 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,320 a great resource for me as I've gotten into masters track the 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,000 past couple years. Jen, thank you so much for 17 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:06,040 joining us and welcome to the podcast. 18 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:09,920 Thanks so much for having me. So just to give you all a little 19 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,080 background on Jen. Jen is a mom of three. 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,920 She's coached all ages, including high school and 21 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:19,600 college, and is currently a coach at Darien High School here 22 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,600 in Connecticut. She's a researcher at Columbia 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:27,200 Presbyterian Hospital. Also a pretty much lifelong 24 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:29,840 runner. I don't know how old you were 25 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:33,480 when you started, but her lifetime PRS are 419 for the 26 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,320 1500 and 208 for the 800, which is incredible. 27 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,640 And she currently runs for the Central Park Track, club Track 28 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:45,040 Smith and is an alum of UMass Amherst. 29 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,080 So Jen, again, thanks so much for joining us today. 30 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,440 I'm really hoping to give our listeners a lot of information 31 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,400 about masters, track and field, how to get involved, who it's 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,080 for. It's not just for people 40 and 33 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:02,880 older, It's for younger people too. 34 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:07,520 And then talk a little bit about spring training and shoe 35 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,240 rotations because we can't get away with a podcast episode here 36 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:13,800 at Dor without talking a little bit about running shoes. 37 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,520 So Jen, can you tell us about your running background? 38 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,120 And let's just start with when did you start running and how 39 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:26,000 did you get into competing? So I started running in the fall 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:30,480 of 8th grade. A friend of mine was going to 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,080 cross country practice and I had joined her that day. 42 00:02:35,880 --> 00:02:39,440 I think I probably only had a couple of practices under my 43 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,480 belt before my very first competition. 44 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,200 So I guess I've been a competitor pretty much since day 45 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:51,360 one. It, it was not something that I 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:57,240 sort of like sought out to do. And in fact, I had no idea where 47 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,480 cross country was in the eighth grade. 48 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,440 And I had heard it on the loudspeaker and I just, I had no 49 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:03,920 idea what it was. So I asked her. 50 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:05,800 She said we just go out for runs. 51 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,200 I still couldn't comprehend why people would do this, but I 52 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:15,240 asked if I could join her. And so the rest is, as you say, 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:16,600 history. I love it. 54 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,640 Yeah. I think it's so funny that 55 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,320 you're, you know, I think a lot of people think to themselves, 56 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,400 why would anyone just want to go out for a run and then you try 57 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:27,560 it and fall in love with it, of course. 58 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,880 So you raced in college, so you must have had a pretty good high 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,600 school racing career. Did you start out at mid 60 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,480 distance or did you experiment with different distances in high 61 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,720 school and college? Tell us a little bit about your 62 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,400 high school and collegiate racing. 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,360 Sure. Well, I think in the eighth 64 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:51,480 grade it was sort of like the perfect introduction because our 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,640 races were just a little bit more than a mile and I found 66 00:03:55,640 --> 00:04:00,760 that distance very doable. When I got to high school for 67 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:07,920 cross country, they did, they trained for the 5K already and 68 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:10,200 that was a huge shock to my system. 69 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:14,440 And so I ended up basically flopping out of my freshman year 70 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,079 of cross country. I ended up with like Patella 71 00:04:18,079 --> 00:04:21,800 tendonitis because I just, I went straight into it. 72 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:25,320 I didn't really have like a foundation from the summer and 73 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,000 the distance was just, it was twice as long as I was used to 74 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:32,200 running and it was just too much for for my body. 75 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:37,240 So then when I started indoor track that winter, I went over 76 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,680 to the coach and said, you know, I was struggling in the fall. 77 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,200 I seem to have that injury behind me now. 78 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:47,600 I went to PT and I said, you know, I'm not sure that distance 79 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,920 running is really for me. And so he had me training with 80 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:57,000 the sprinters, although he knew that like my primary event would 81 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,440 be middle distance. So I really focused on speed 82 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:07,480 drills, endless amount of like just coordination, strength. 83 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,560 And I, I don't think I really went out for distance runs so 84 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:18,400 much, but basically ran the middle distance off of strength. 85 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:22,320 That's very lucky that you encountered that PT so early in 86 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:26,400 your running career who gave you that strength and speed base, 87 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,160 which of course pays off tremendously when it comes to 88 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:33,080 the 800. So I at that point I pretty much 89 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:38,480 well in outdoor track. The coach my freshman year said 90 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:40,160 I really think you should try the mile. 91 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,640 So I did sort of reluctantly. I set the freshman mile record 92 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:50,400 for the school and then declared that I would never run it again. 93 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,360 And that's not actually what happened though, is it? 94 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:01,680 No, but the feeling is still real. 95 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,920 Like I I still like, I know I run the mile and but I have a 96 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,440 strong dislike for that event. Like I I really do prefer the 97 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,720 800. I agree with you, I never ran 98 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,560 the mile in high school because I just felt it was too long. 99 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,560 I didn't want to do that many laps on the track. 100 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,880 So now when I run it I like it as a challenge, but it 101 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,160 definitely isn't my favorite distance either. 102 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,120 I definitely prefer the eight as well. 103 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:34,720 So I focused on the 800 throughout high school in the 104 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,880 thousand of course for indoor. And then when I went to college 105 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,320 I was an 800 runner in a 4 by 800 runner. 106 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,320 That was my primary event. I also ran cross country that 107 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,360 was a 5K and then championships for a 6K. 108 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:55,120 But she knew that I was an 800 runner. 109 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:59,280 So it like, I mean, I was always sort of like the back end of the 110 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:01,720 team. I was a walk on. 111 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:07,120 So all the recruited freshmen actually ended up leaving my 112 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,160 freshman year. So I was the only freshman 113 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:11,360 distance runner, mid distance runner to stay. 114 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,400 So that was kind of an interesting dynamic. 115 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,560 So my freshman year was probably like 12th to 14th on the cross 116 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,480 country team. And then each year I just kind 117 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:25,560 of kept moving up little by little. 118 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,480 In my senior year, I was #2 on the team. 119 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,480 That's amazing. Yeah, especially like given my 120 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,400 background and not wanting to run distance, I really just try 121 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,720 to embrace it and see it as sort of strength for indoor and 122 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:47,560 outdoor. And so that year running that 123 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:52,840 well, the indoor and outdoor seasons were also the best of my 124 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:58,360 college career and I was a conference champion in the 1000, 125 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:03,360 I was runner up in the mile and we won our 4 by 8 in the 126 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:04,920 conference championship. So. 127 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,600 Wow. And then we won the overall team 128 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,840 title for cross for indoor track that year as well, so. 129 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,400 That's incredible. What an end to your collegiate 130 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:15,360 career. Yeah. 131 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:20,840 So did you have a lot of runners have trouble with the transition 132 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,800 from high school to collegiate racing? 133 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,520 Did you find that it was difficult to make that 134 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,360 transition or do you feel like you were pretty well prepared 135 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,960 for that? How did the how did your 136 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:36,120 collegiate coaches kind of help the freshman group transition to 137 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,880 probably higher distance or higher, higher weekly mileage 138 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:45,080 and just more intense training? So we were fortunate enough to 139 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,800 have a female coach who was also a middle distance runner, so she 140 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:53,880 separated our running groups to the distance running group in 141 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,240 the middle distance running group. 142 00:08:55,920 --> 00:09:00,760 So I think that helped a lot. She also believed in water 143 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,000 training, so every Wednesday morning we were all required to 144 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:09,320 go into the pool for our first session of the day and then we 145 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:11,280 would have regular practice in the afternoon. 146 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,280 That was just once a week. But, you know, she did it for 147 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,280 strength, she did it for recovery and like, she really 148 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:23,040 paid attention to how we were feeling. 149 00:09:23,560 --> 00:09:27,560 That's really interesting. Is including Aqua running as 150 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:30,440 cross training something that's normally done on collegiate 151 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,920 teams now? No, not really. 152 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,000 Yeah, I don't think so. So I did hear a story that the 153 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:43,560 years that Yale was sort of top in distance running, they went 154 00:09:43,560 --> 00:09:47,120 into the pool in the training at least twice a week. 155 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:53,680 I hear they no longer do that and they're not necessarily at 156 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:59,600 the top of they're running full these days, no pun intended. 157 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,080 Yeah, I mean, we all know the importance of cross training, 158 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,880 especially easy cross training for recovery just to do 159 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,400 something lower impact. I definitely use the bike as my 160 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,520 way of recovering from running, but the pool can be another 161 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,560 great way for people. So I think as long as runners 162 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:23,560 are doing something to offload their bodies, that's probably 163 00:10:23,560 --> 00:10:27,800 the key. Maybe just making the whole team 164 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,040 get in the pool and actually recover is a more effective way 165 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,320 than telling someone to, oh, go get on the stationary bike or 166 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,760 the elliptical and maybe they still train too hard. 167 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,680 But super interesting. So after college? 168 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,560 Oh, go ahead. No, I was going to say like and, 169 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,160 and we did. We were all in there sort of, I 170 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,880 guess suffering together. You know, we kind of looked at 171 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:51,360 it that way because it was freezing cold. 172 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:52,880 It was really early in the morning. 173 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,080 UMass is in this like Arctic tundra. 174 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:02,600 So doing that in the winter time and coming out with wet hair was 175 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,560 a bit of an adjustment but but it created a a nice team bond I 176 00:11:07,560 --> 00:11:08,840 guess. Absolutely. 177 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:09,840 Yeah. Yeah. 178 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,560 All the former swimmers, including myself, who are 179 00:11:12,560 --> 00:11:15,480 listening to this are like, yeah, I know the feeling of 180 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,920 going outside with wet hair and it's only, you know, 6:30 in the 181 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:20,960 morning and you've already done your first workout. 182 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:23,720 But runners definitely aren't used to that. 183 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:29,440 Good way to suffer together. You now you raised a little bit 184 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,640 after college, right? Could you tell us a little bit 185 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,480 about that and how that went and just how you found that 186 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,320 transition from college to post collegiate? 187 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:44,400 So I graduated UMass with a degree in exercise science, but 188 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:50,120 I found out pretty quickly that there weren't a lot of jobs for 189 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,720 people with just an undergraduate degree in exercise 190 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,360 science. You really needed a master's and 191 00:11:55,360 --> 00:12:00,760 financially I wasn't in a position to go and pay for in 192 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,320 get a master's in exercise science. 193 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:09,680 So while I was sort of in limbo, a coach from the Boston Athletic 194 00:12:09,680 --> 00:12:14,640 Association had reached out to my coach and asked if I would 195 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:20,400 consider continuing running in Boston at a club level. 196 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,360 He knew I was from Boston originally, so he knew that like 197 00:12:25,360 --> 00:12:28,400 I'd probably be going home and that I could commute into the 198 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,920 city to go to training and training with the BAA. 199 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,680 So I didn't really have another plan and the goal was to get me 200 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:41,920 working at one of the running stores. 201 00:12:41,920 --> 00:12:46,680 So I, I worked in a running store in Boston and then ran for 202 00:12:46,680 --> 00:12:50,600 that club. I'm kind of like, I grew up in 203 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:55,400 Central Massachusetts, which is not fairly close to Boston. 204 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,120 I mean, it's close enough, but certainly it's kind of like 205 00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:02,080 being in, you know, Fairfield County or Westchester County and 206 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,440 going into New York City. It's just, you know, it's, it's 207 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,720 a hard hassle getting through the traffic and what not. 208 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,800 So another friend had said that there was another group that was 209 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:16,040 training in like the Newton Wellesley area, which was much 210 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,200 closer to where I was living, and so that I should talk to the 211 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,040 head coach there and that he was forming a middle distance 212 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,280 running group that might work for me really well. 213 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:33,200 So I didn't stay at the BAA for much longer than just my first 214 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,800 cross country season with them and transferred over to this 215 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,480 other team, which was under Central Mass Striders. 216 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:45,280 But we had a small little group that was like a carve out from 217 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,320 that, which we called Reebok Boston. 218 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:51,840 So our team was sponsored by Reebok. 219 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:57,160 They paid for gear and travel and yeah. 220 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,000 That's awesome. So what was the racing circuit 221 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,720 like then? I mean, we're so lucky to have 222 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,720 so many great mates in the Boston, New York City area. 223 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:09,840 Did you mainly race in the Northeast or did you go all 224 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:14,120 over? So for the most part, what's now 225 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,560 known as the Battle Rd. Track Club Twilight series used 226 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:24,840 to be another just Northeastern Twilight series is what it was 227 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:29,520 called back in the day. And so we utilized those meets 228 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:32,840 and then there was another circuit which is called the 229 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:37,160 Canadian American Tour. And so we would race in Boston, 230 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,600 we would race in Maine and then a couple races up in Canada and 231 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,360 then back down to Maine and then finish up in Boston. 232 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:50,680 So it's kind of like a summer long series that we did and 233 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,080 that's really where my best times came from was when we came 234 00:14:55,160 --> 00:15:00,840 back down from racing in Canada. My final two races in Boston is 235 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:03,480 where I ran two O 8. That's amazing. 236 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:04,960 What? What age were you when you were 237 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:06,960 in that? 23. 238 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,160 Nice. And yeah, just having what a 239 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:14,840 great opportunity to have so many meets in a relatively close 240 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,600 geographical region. You're not flying over all over 241 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,720 the country to have good competition and you're racing a 242 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,520 lot and that's the key to getting faster. 243 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,360 Yeah, it was, you know, something that a lot of people 244 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:32,920 have a hard time doing, which is racing and then resting and then 245 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,760 racing and then resting. They feel like that they have to 246 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:42,800 do something in between, but in fact just resting and allowing 247 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,840 the body to super compensate is the best recovery. 248 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:53,320 Of 100% yeah, I am the same way. And that's how bike racing was 249 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,000 you. You know, you train up to a 250 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:59,640 point until the meet of your season and then it's just race 251 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:02,760 and recover, race and recover. That's all you can do. 252 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,480 And there's the fitness you're gaining is from the racing, not 253 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,120 trying to add in additional workouts on top of all of that 254 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:13,400 racing. Yeah, it's it's a philosophy 255 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:19,680 that's really hard for current generation of runners to accept. 256 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,800 Do you find that that's more prevalent in distance runners? 257 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,960 Do you think that shorter distance runners do better at 258 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,520 resting? Or do you just find that no 259 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,360 matter what distance someone races, they have more trouble 260 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,320 actually taking proper rest during race season? 261 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,600 I don't know. I mean, I feel like so often in 262 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,920 track culture, the distance runners sort of make fun of the 263 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:48,280 sprinters that they're just like always sort of like laying about 264 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,080 and, you know, they have these really long recoveries in 265 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,960 between their repetitions. And, you know, the distance 266 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:57,800 runner will be doing like 24 hundreds, you know, and the 267 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,600 sprinter's like, oh, I've got 2-3 hundreds to do today and I 268 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,480 can't believe I have to run that far. 269 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,359 And but it's obviously about the intensity. 270 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,480 I feel like sprinters honor the intensity much better than 271 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:14,280 distance runners do. I totally agree with that. 272 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,960 Yeah, I was at the indoor track yesterday and I had some broken 273 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,000 8 hundreds to do. And there were some distance 274 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:24,480 guys who I think we're doing 20 by 400 just based on how long 275 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,280 they were out there. But you know, they're doing jog 276 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,720 recoveries and I've got 10 minute recoveries between sets. 277 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,400 And it's like, well, this is what I need and it's different 278 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,560 than what they need. But we're all, we're all just 279 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,880 out here trying to get fitter. But different, different 280 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,360 intensities require different recovery lengths for sure. 281 00:17:45,360 --> 00:17:48,240 And. I think for middle distance 282 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:52,600 runners where you could be either top down, so maybe 283 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:59,000 you're, you know, you're more distance or bottom up, maybe 284 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,000 even more Sprint. I think that impacts the 285 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,520 decision on, you know, should I be jogging this recovery? 286 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,480 Should I be walking this recovery? 287 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,880 Should I just lie down flat on my back recover? 288 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,240 I think where you come from probably impacts that more. 289 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,360 Oh absolutely, yeah. Muscle fiber type just yeah, the 290 00:18:21,360 --> 00:18:25,240 800 is such an interesting event in that so many different types 291 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,880 of athletes can excel at it. So if you are a more speed based 292 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:34,840 800 runner who would also run a fast 400, then your training is 293 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,960 absolutely going to be different than somebody who can run an 294 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:43,360 equally fast mile as they could, you know, comparatively speaking 295 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:47,520 as an 800. So after now I know you took 296 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:52,800 break from racing when you started your family, so how long 297 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,640 were you not racing? Were you running at all in that 298 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,320 time? And then what got your back into 299 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,720 racing and what brought you to masters racing? 300 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:09,080 So I never stopped training, but I just needed a break from 301 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,760 competing. So I didn't really even want to 302 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:16,320 do like a local road race or things of that nature. 303 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,880 But somehow or another, I would always, especially knowing my 304 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,680 background, I would always get pulled into like a Chase 305 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:29,080 corporate challenge. Or when I worked at PIMCO Funds, 306 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:34,960 we had a corporate Olympics and they knew that I was a 1500m 307 00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,760 runner previously and they were like, will you please go and 308 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:41,000 represent the United States offices? 309 00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:45,320 And I was like, OK, So like it would always sort of have like 310 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,200 sucked me back in for like small moments of time. 311 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,680 So I don't ever feel like I really had like a full clean 312 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,760 sweep of not doing it. But it was more like a dabble 313 00:19:55,760 --> 00:20:00,680 here, a dabble there just to, I don't know, I guess for office 314 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:10,640 water cooler talk, I guess. But in 2013 I had some health 315 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,760 issues. And after that was over, I just 316 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,400 kind of like, I didn't quite feel like an athlete anymore, 317 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:22,920 even though I had been sort of running and like going out for a 318 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,560 jog here or there. And I felt like the only way 319 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,480 that I could get back to feeling like myself was to start 320 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:35,920 competing again. So some during some of those in 321 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,720 between times, I had connected with the Westchester track club. 322 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,720 And so I started doing some runs with them. 323 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:50,720 And I was I guess probably 38 at the time. 324 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,440 And so I said to the head coach there, I was like, you know, I 325 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,840 had a couple of really good races that weren't too far off 326 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,760 of some of my lifetime PRS, you know, maybe I could be faster as 327 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,920 a master. And he's like, I really liked 328 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,560 the intent of that. He's like, but knowing, you 329 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,720 know, where you came from, that's going to be really hard 330 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,640 to do. So. 331 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,520 But anyway, I just kind of always kept that in mind and at 332 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:26,120 least achieving the same feeling, the same fitness level 333 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:32,320 that I felt back in my early 20s is what has sort of been the 334 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,440 driver and feeling that good again. 335 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,320 Yeah, it's like a return to yourself. 336 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,160 Yeah, Yeah. Now I know you're being very 337 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:46,040 modest, but you've had quite the success in masters racing. 338 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:50,560 So I know last year you won world gold in the 1500 in 339 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,240 indoor, is that right? That is, yeah. 340 00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,520 Yes. And can you tell us how that 341 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,000 race went? Well, it wasn't the best lead up 342 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,600 to that race. I mean, I guess that's probably 343 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:05,200 a true story for a lot of people. 344 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,920 I had ended up like 4 weeks earlier than that. 345 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,800 I was supposed to run in the New Balance Grand Fini, but I got 346 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:18,920 flu A or flu BI, don't remember, and it really knocked me on my 347 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:23,160 butt. So after that, I was really 348 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:29,720 having like a hard time with my aerobic capacity, so I really 349 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,280 had to just buckle down and focus on training and not do any 350 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,800 races because I knew that I wouldn't be able to put in the 351 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,120 work if I was racing. Also, I guess that's one of the 352 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:43,640 things, again, as you get older, like you really have to respect 353 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,880 the time that you need to recover in between races. 354 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:50,960 I didn't think I could race myself into fitness for the 355 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,160 1500. Like I think that's just, it's 356 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,400 really a labor of love. Like you just, you have to do 357 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,080 the right number of repeats. And so that's what I did. 358 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:05,640 I just, I didn't do any races leading up to it. 359 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:11,400 I just, I just trained. So for four weeks I buckle down 360 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,760 and I was like, OK, well, let's see how this goes. 361 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:20,280 I would say about halfway through that race, I kind of 362 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:24,720 questioned whether or not I was going to be able to see it 363 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,400 through. And then I just said to myself, 364 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,400 I was like, well, how bad do you on it? 365 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:37,040 And that little mind shift was really all I needed to pick up 366 00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:40,680 the pace and take off and just not look back. 367 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:45,240 Like I just, I had to move then I couldn't like wait for it so. 368 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,280 That's awesome. Well, congratulations. 369 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,440 That's that is quite a comeback to have been sick and what the 370 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,680 New Balance race was at the beginning of February and then 371 00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,640 to come back and be in top shape for worlds, what, 6-7 weeks 372 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:02,560 later, That's huge. Yeah. 373 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:09,880 And you've also raced like a pretty wide range of distances 374 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,360 in the past couple of years, right? 375 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,440 Like you've raced cross country. I originally met you at 1/2 376 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,520 marathon. So what got you, the middle 377 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,160 distance runner who hates running the mile to do cross 378 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,760 country and jump into a few half marathons here and there? 379 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,240 So I think this sort of goes back to you can even look at 380 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:37,000 like my senior year of college. So in the summer sort of laying 381 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:42,720 the foundation and in the fall running those cross country 382 00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,320 races where I really feel like you get a level of strength 383 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,800 running cross country because the ground is not for giving, 384 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:53,960 right? There's no bounce. 385 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,520 So you can't wear like a super shoe, for example, and you know, 386 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,240 get a recoil off the ground on cement, right? 387 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:08,560 The ground literally absorbs all of your energy and so having to 388 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:14,480 push off of like a negative return, it builds strength, 389 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,440 right? And so then you take that cross 390 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,400 country training and then you apply it to the track and it 391 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,160 makes you very springy. Absolutely, yeah. 392 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,680 I'm trying to remember the name of the American who won gold in 393 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:31,800 the men's 400 at the Olympics, but he, you know, credited his 394 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,840 high school coach in making him run cross country, which he said 395 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:40,320 gave him the strength to be such a gritty 400 runner. 396 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:46,480 I loved that interview. Yeah, so, so like I, I find that 397 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:50,880 there's like a time for that. And even when I ran for Reebok 398 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:58,120 Boston, we would go out to Lincoln Woods and Balding Pond 399 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,880 and we would run 12 to 14 miles. This is the middle distance 400 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,040 crew, but it was at a very conversational pace. 401 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,040 So we would be out there for like a couple of hours just 402 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:18,200 jogging gently in the woods. And so those sort of like long 403 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:25,040 comfortable training sessions, they're very therapeutic 404 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:30,360 mentally, physically, leaving those long runs in genuinely 405 00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:36,280 feeling very drained. But like in a good way, It just 406 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,000 sort of stuck with me that this is just part of the process. 407 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:45,080 So I kind of in the fall decided that like I would do, well, I 408 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,720 was running 13 anyway. And I used to joke that I would 409 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:53,040 run 13.0 so that my Strada would never say 13.1 on a training 410 00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,760 line because that just seems silly. 411 00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,400 So, so then there's like, OK, well what if you just go and 412 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:05,280 sign up for a local half marathon and just run the 13.1 413 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,800 and then at least get, you know, like a real number, real time, 414 00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,000 real credit, not just a training run, right. 415 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:17,760 So that sort of became a more recent thing that I've done. 416 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,000 Yeah, it's fun to get out there and just be in a race 417 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,200 environment and test yourself rather than going out and doing 418 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,640 a long run by yourself. And I mean, you're, you're in a 419 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:30,480 pretty fast half, right? I think I remember you said that 420 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,400 was APR for you. Yeah. 421 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:38,840 And so my PR is a 1/22 at Ridgefield, which is kind of 422 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,880 crazy because it's notoriously hilly and windy. 423 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:47,960 But also I feel like I run really well on hills like and, 424 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,240 and maybe that goes back to some of that cross country training 425 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:57,000 and strength that I build in the fall that like I do really like 426 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,800 flat. It isn't always easier. 427 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,920 It may seem like it might be, but I think the change in 428 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,440 terrain is sort of better on your body. 429 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,080 Though I will say after Ridgefield for about four days, 430 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,680 my right hip flexor was a little angry at me, but it passed. 431 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,080 I gave myself the recovery it needed and it went away. 432 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,040 But but it was that hilly. It is a hilly course. 433 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,640 And what's funny is they say that it's a, you know, rolling 434 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,960 course, but anytime in Connecticut someone says 435 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,160 rolling, you know, it's actually quite hilly. 436 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:38,360 And if someone says it's a flat course, you know it has moderate 437 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,480 hills. Yes. 438 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:46,120 Yes, Now you've won a number of National Masters titles to your 439 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,680 right. I just so our listeners know, 440 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:53,360 you know, it's very impressive what you've accomplished. 441 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,280 So if you could share that with our listeners, what all have 442 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,400 you, What have your top results been at national championships 443 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,160 as a Master? You know, I honestly, I wish I 444 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:09,160 could like, I don't know, share my accolades, but honestly, like 445 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,600 anything that's happened like 24 hours ago, I just, I don't even 446 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,320 think about it really. So like, I know like my, my best 447 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,280 times of all time are, but honestly, I can't remember from 448 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:27,600 year to year what my times are. The only thing that I can say is 449 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:34,560 that like something that I've grown to appreciate is my mile 450 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,080 track record history, even though, again, I don't really 451 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:38,960 care for that distance right now. 452 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:51,880 But is that over the last 36 years I've run basically ±10 453 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:56,240 seconds on a 5 minute mile consistently. 454 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:01,360 I've broken 5 as a master. Not every time, but that's OK. 455 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,280 There are other years that I've from close but I didn't do it. 456 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,400 But I like the ±10. Like I think on a mile that's 457 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,600 pretty consistent over a very, very long period of time. 458 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,000 Oh, absolutely. That's that is incredible 459 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:22,760 consistency and quite fast. Well, since Jen won't tell us 460 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,400 how many national titles she has, I'm pretty sure she has 461 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,000 several in both in cross country, right. 462 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,560 And on the track. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 463 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:32,640 So. Country track. 464 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,520 I think I've had some like podium finishes at the US ATF 465 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,160 10K race. James Joyce Ramble, another one 466 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,720 that is notoriously rolling hills. 467 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:51,040 And so, yeah, it yeah. You have range, there's no 468 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:56,120 question. So I met Jen at this Ridgefield 469 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,600 Half Marathon. I had known that she was a 470 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,840 local, you know, legend in mid distance racing, but I didn't 471 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,880 know anything about mid distance track racing as a masters 472 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,800 athlete. I had always, you know, that's 473 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,360 what I did in high school and I had always thought it would be 474 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,680 fun to get back into it at my age, but I didn't know that 475 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,560 there were all of these really incredible opportunities for 476 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:25,240 people who are out of college. So Jen, to her credit, really 477 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,800 has been a great resource for me just in helping me understand 478 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,360 how to find meats and you know, knowing what the good ones are 479 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,000 to do. So just briefly, Jen, cuz 480 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,800 there's so much more I want to talk to you about. 481 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,280 Can you, if somebody was interested in getting into 482 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,600 masters track, what should they know in terms of how old do you 483 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,080 have to be, where to find me? It's if you wanted to find a 484 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:50,000 training group, how could you do that? 485 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,760 And anything else you think our listeners might need to know to 486 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:54,480 get started? Sure. 487 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,440 I mean, there are different age groups for Masters, whether 488 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,040 you're talking about Rd. racing or cross country. 489 00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:08,520 And then for track and field. Track and field has actually 490 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:14,400 more recently embraced welcoming the much younger age groups to 491 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:19,520 our championship meets. You can even see, you know, as 492 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:26,080 young AS253035 showing up to the Masters championships. 493 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:31,440 And the reason for that is because just trying to have a 494 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,440 space for athletes who maybe aren't training for the Olympics 495 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,000 to have a place to compete because the only other 496 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,520 alternative is qualifying for USA's. 497 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,920 And you basically have to be a world class athlete to make 498 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,040 those qualifying standards for USA's. 499 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:55,240 So that leaves a large set of the population without 500 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:00,280 championship to train in four. So I think it's really great in 501 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,880 opening that up and also inviting them, allowing them to 502 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:09,920 see what older athletes are capable of still doing. 503 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:13,120 So. I think that's the first thing 504 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,200 to know is that USA track and field is very welcoming of all 505 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:22,800 ages. The second thing is that there 506 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,520 are for track and field, again, there are a lot of meats that 507 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,520 are listed on a website called Direct Athletics. 508 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:33,040 And so they'll list high school races, college races, and then 509 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:37,200 an open category race. Sometimes races are listed as 510 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:42,680 just collegiate, but you might be able to as a club athlete 511 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,440 participate in that as well. I'll specifically focus on some 512 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:50,640 of the Division Three schools might say close for college, But 513 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,080 if you reach out to the meet director and say, hey, I've run 514 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,920 XYZ for a time, would it be possible for me to race in your 515 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:01,720 meet? And as long as it's not one of 516 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:05,120 their championships, like their conference championship or any 517 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,280 any of those kinds of meats, they're usually very willing to 518 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,600 allow open athletes to to compete. 519 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:18,239 I think joining a club, I mean that's how I started, was very 520 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:23,920 beneficial because the club coaches obviously know where and 521 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,199 what races. You can become a part of a very 522 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:30,360 large club like Central Park Track Club. 523 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,960 I mean, we have open elite athletes, we have Olympians on 524 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,800 our team, we have 80 and 90 year olds on our team. 525 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,600 And what's interesting is, is that when you show up to a 526 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:49,280 practice, you are broken out by ability, not by gender or age. 527 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,560 So you always have people to run with with the same ability as 528 00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:59,000 you, which is very nice. So you end up developing these 529 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:05,800 little training pods and it's just, it's a very welcoming 530 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,640 community. I've always admired, I mean, the 531 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:11,640 Central Park Track Club is huge. You always see so many of your 532 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,200 athletes at races, but you all also seem to like, genuinely 533 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,200 enjoy being around each other, which you know, isn't always the 534 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,120 case with amateur teams. So yeah, it, it looks like a 535 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:25,120 great group. I'm so glad that you have your 536 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,160 teammates to train with and race with. 537 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:34,400 Like as we get older is like having the social aspect of it 538 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,440 as well, like to be able to whether it's like a, it's a 539 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,000 community. And so you're talking with these 540 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:45,320 people and not just at practice, but you know, outside of 541 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,840 practice or maybe you're travelling with your teammates 542 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:53,240 to some of these USATF meets nationals that will take place 543 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:55,840 throughout different parts of the country. 544 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,480 So yeah. Yeah, and I think that's why so 545 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,520 many people run is not just for the exercise, but it is for the 546 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,160 community that comes along with it. 547 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,480 So I want to move on and just talk to you a little bit. 548 00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,440 Like, let's put your coaching and athlete hats on. 549 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:14,520 And you know, you you see you're running from both sides. 550 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,800 You're a lifelong athlete, but you've also coached collegiate 551 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:22,760 and high school. And do you coach adults too, or 552 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:28,120 just younger people? So it's it changes over time. 553 00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:34,240 So right now I do have one adult athlete that I'm coaching. 554 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,280 I'm not taking on clients because it's just, it's a lot 555 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,000 with coaching the high school team. 556 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,520 But at any point in time, you know, I would have like 4 or 557 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,560 five adults that I'm training. I don't advertise. 558 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,080 It's just they've sought me out and said hey, would you mind 559 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,000 helping me? Sometimes I'll help people for a 560 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:59,040 short period of time and encourage them to then go and 561 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,840 join the club because it's great having a one-on-one coaching 562 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,240 relationship. But I think most people get so 563 00:37:05,240 --> 00:37:09,400 much more out of having training partners and community. 564 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,600 So like it's kind of funny. Like I mean, I'll, I'll start 565 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,480 with them and I'll help them gain the confidence, but 566 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,840 eventually I want them to leave me. 567 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,640 I don't want to, I don't want to keep them as a lifelong client. 568 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,720 I just want to help them get out the door and then find that 569 00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:28,640 community that works for them. Absolutely. 570 00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:33,520 So as I guess my first question would be, have you seen big 571 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,080 changes in high school and collegiate racing now compared 572 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,120 to when you were competing? How has the training changed? 573 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,960 How has coaching changed now that you've seen it from both 574 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,800 sides? What do you wish? 575 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:50,160 Maybe your coaches had done differently when you were in 576 00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:54,600 high school or in college? I think for the most part, kids 577 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:56,920 are definitely starting much younger. 578 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,640 I think some of the success that you're seeing at the high school 579 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:06,280 level at a really high end, those kids might have already 580 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:12,280 been training for, you know, five years and, you know, now 581 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:17,200 they're being super successful. But I think there's always like 582 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,440 a 10 year period. And I don't necessarily think 583 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:25,880 starting younger is beneficial. I mean, I think high school 584 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,920 should be about growth and development for both boys and 585 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,880 girls. We can see developmental issues 586 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,960 by them training too hard or too intensely. 587 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,160 I think there are also psychological effects of 588 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,440 training too young and having that much pressure on them. 589 00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:49,440 And this isn't like a general blanket statement across every 590 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,400 student, every athlete. I'm sure there are some that the 591 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,440 training is perfectly justifiable. 592 00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:01,560 The it's not causing them any additional mental anguish. 593 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,000 But I would say on the majority it does. 594 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:09,760 So, you know, people will be the first to, you know, chime in 595 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,120 well, you know, not my child, not my athlete. 596 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,800 But that will always remain to be seen much later down the 597 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,040 road. Like how do they acclimate to 598 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,520 college and are they successful in college? 599 00:39:22,720 --> 00:39:25,240 Certainly for female athletes, did their bones develop 600 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,360 properly? You know, we're especially for 601 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:33,280 female athletes, we're at the struggle between the ages of 18 602 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:37,920 and 22 where our bodies trying to form it's full bone density 603 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,120 and yet we're trying to do something that's the opposite of 604 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,800 that, which is, you know, training our faces off and the 605 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:46,560 body simply can't do both at the same time. 606 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:51,880 So I would be more in favor of a softer approach for high school 607 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,800 athletes and allowing their bodies to physiologically 608 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,600 develop in setting a good foundation, kind of like what I 609 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,560 had where, you know, we focused on strength, speed, bio 610 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,040 mechanics. All of the foundational stuff in 611 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,640 high school and your times will improve, but maybe you're not 612 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:16,000 the high school standout that is getting an NIL deal. 613 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,400 So then on the college level, I think they're also performing 614 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,480 really well, but that's definitely feeding off of high 615 00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:31,600 school phenoms. And so, you know, college is 616 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:37,640 also a very taking time because truly, I mean, it's supposed to 617 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,800 be something that is in addition to your education, not in place 618 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,040 of your education. So I think there's, you know, 619 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,240 there's a balance that needs to be struck there as well between, 620 00:40:51,240 --> 00:40:55,680 again, training so hard that you can't focus on your academics 621 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:00,360 and also being successful because, you know, it is fun to 622 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,920 be a conference champion. It's fun to make it to a 623 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,760 national championship, but also know that that's not everything. 624 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,000 Because like me, I mean, I was consistently running between 625 00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:17,480 2:12 and 2:15 in college and then I left the college scene 626 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:23,120 and now I'm running 208. So, you know, and I, my bones 627 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:27,760 were fully formed and I was stronger and I was faster. 628 00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:30,920 I didn't suffer from a lot of injuries. 629 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,640 I still don't suffer from a lot of injuries. 630 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:41,520 I'm currently on 331 weeks of a streak on Stava and but I also 631 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:45,720 take 50 days off a year. So it's not my streak is not a 632 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,480 never stop running, but I've just been able to consistently 633 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:53,000 train. And so even when I've taken 634 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,280 breaks over the summer time, it might be at like the beginning 635 00:41:56,280 --> 00:41:59,280 of the week and then I start at the end of the following week. 636 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:06,520 And so I still have but it's but it's not because I didn't take 637 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,600 time off. Right, and I think you hit the 638 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:10,920 nail on the head. One can being able to train 639 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:15,560 consistently is the number one factor for improvement, but also 640 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,560 not getting injured. But two, you know, there's so 641 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,160 much talk about, OK, how can we how can we help high school 642 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,640 female athletes in particular be healthier and be at lower risk 643 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,680 of injury, red ass eating disorders. 644 00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,480 And I think one of the best things that coaches can do 645 00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:39,800 that's not invasive of people's privacy is focusing on strength 646 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:45,680 bio mechanics, emphasizing the importance of proper fueling, 647 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:51,920 not making their athletes weigh in or, and encouraging all 648 00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:54,640 athletes to check in with their doctors And so that their 649 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,200 doctors can be in charge of making sure that somebody is 650 00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,560 menstruating regularly and all of their blood markers are 651 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,600 normal. But I think as high school 652 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,200 coaches and as you know, you're limited in what you can talk to 653 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:11,240 your athletes about, just focusing on the basics, strength 654 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:15,160 mechanics, a solid consistent base of training is the best way 655 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:20,320 to set them up for success. So, your coach, if you could 656 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:27,720 give the parents of high school runners 1 tip that you wish they 657 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,200 knew about run training, what would it be? 658 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:37,520 It's really hard because, you know, currently we've had a foot 659 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,080 of snow on the ground. Most of the paths that are 660 00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:48,200 shoveled sort of are similar to an Arctic luge, Not so much, you 661 00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,960 know, concrete underneath where it was shovelled. 662 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,560 So the roads are still narrowed. So running on the road is not 663 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:00,280 really safe. We don't have treadmills at the 664 00:44:00,280 --> 00:44:02,480 high school. We have bites and ellipticals. 665 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,520 And we have limited hallway space and limited gym space that 666 00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,240 we can use. And yet I'll have some parents 667 00:44:12,240 --> 00:44:17,040 say, please don't let my child run outside, it's too cold. 668 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,640 And I'm the first to say I would never make your child run 669 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,440 outside when it's 0° outside. We'll find other things that we 670 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,960 can do. And then I have other parents 671 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:33,000 saying you're not running my child hard enough, you know, let 672 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,080 this child go outside and run in 0° temperature. 673 00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:42,840 Again, having a Physiology background, it makes having 674 00:44:42,840 --> 00:44:47,240 those parent input makes it really, really challenging, 675 00:44:47,240 --> 00:44:54,840 especially as a team. I think, you know, the students 676 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:59,760 probably need to communicate better with their coaches, have 677 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,880 better communication. You know, the first thing that I 678 00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,760 always say to the kids when they come up to me to get their 679 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:10,920 assignments for the day is how is everyone feeling, which is an 680 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:12,800 unusual thing for coaches to ask. 681 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,800 Usually it's this is what we're going to do. 682 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:19,440 But I have like 1000 things that I can go to in my mind at like 683 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,200 the snap of a finger of what we could do if it comes back with, 684 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,560 you know, I'm really, really sore today, coach. 685 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,680 I have no idea why. Or I didn't sleep well last 686 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,120 night or I was up, you know, until 2:00 AM studying for 687 00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:37,320 midterms. You know, I really believe in 688 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,960 the whole athlete. So having the parents sort of 689 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,200 say do this, don't do that makes it really, really challenging 690 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,720 because they're obviously sharing some of those ideas with 691 00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:52,880 the kids and then the kids start to lose trust in the coach. 692 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:56,360 So I think it's better that if there are questions that the 693 00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:59,200 parents should talk to the questions with their kids and 694 00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,000 have their kids ask the questions with the coach and 695 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:07,680 improving those kinds of relationships rather than then I 696 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,040 don't know, coming directly and bypassing the child all 697 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,240 together. Yeah. 698 00:46:12,240 --> 00:46:15,920 And, you know, teenagers are notorious for not being able to 699 00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:17,760 regulate their body temperature well. 700 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,840 So if you're a parent insisting that your child go out and run 701 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,640 in 0° weather, is that child going to just go out and run in 702 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,640 shorts because that's what they think they should wear for that 703 00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,880 temperature? And there's so many other safety 704 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:38,080 factors involved in telling minors to go out and run in 705 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,400 dangerous conditions. For sure. 706 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,080 So one more question about training and then I want to move 707 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:48,120 on to shoes. So as a lifelong racer, how has 708 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,960 your training changed over the years, like now compared to 10 709 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,360 years ago, compared to when you were in college? 710 00:46:56,640 --> 00:47:00,040 What factors have become more important in your training, and 711 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,600 which ones have become less important as you've gotten 712 00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,080 older, actually? My training has been fairly 713 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:11,800 consistent over the last 37 years. 714 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:16,520 It hasn't really changed too much. 715 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:19,120 I mean, I obviously was a very low mileage runner in high 716 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,880 school. I was sort of a mid mileage 717 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:27,640 runner in college. I probably again became more of 718 00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:32,760 a seasonal mileage runner post collegiately where we trained 719 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:39,320 heavy, long and slow in the summer and fall and then really 720 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,520 cutting the mileage way, way down and then just focusing on 721 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:49,400 speed in the winter and spring. I think sometimes I also get 722 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,400 sucked into the mileage culture and thinking that you know, I 723 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,000 need to run more or I need to run or hit a certain amount of 724 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,760 mileage throughout the entire season. 725 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:06,600 But I think from not hitting the times that I want to run the 726 00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,920 last few years, I've realized that's not sustainable and that 727 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:16,160 I really needed to just really focus on the training theory 728 00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,240 that we discussed earlier, which is race recover, race recover. 729 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,400 And that has produced much better results for me this 730 00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:27,200 indoor season in the 800 then more recently in the past. 731 00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:33,800 I think the other big training hack is like a workout might 732 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,040 call for having two minutes rest in between. 733 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,600 And those numbers are going to be based off of probably male 734 00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,440 Olympic times. And they're obviously running 735 00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:46,840 much faster. So the amount of rest that they 736 00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:50,960 need is probably 4 times of what they've just ran. 737 00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:57,720 But I'm much slower and although I'm slower, it's still my all 738 00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:00,560 out effort. Seems that Olympian, which means 739 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,080 that I need longer recovery in between my repetitions. 740 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,480 I think honoring that as you get older will go a long way for 741 00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:13,320 making sure that you're hitting the pieces that you want in a 742 00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,600 workout. Not creating too much lactate if 743 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,600 it's not a lactate tolerance workout, you know, it's just 744 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:23,600 really about being mindful about what the workout goals. 745 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,040 Are you trying to go lactate threshold? 746 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:31,400 Are you trying to be tempo run? And just really honoring those 747 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,360 numbers and those pieces, those levels of lactate that are 748 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:39,880 swimming through your blood. I think longer recovery between 749 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:43,640 workouts in general, like numbers of days, maybe moving 750 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:48,640 from a seven day to a 10 day schedule or a 14 day schedule in 751 00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,160 your training that can be beneficial. 752 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:56,200 If a workout that an Olympian would do calls for four sets, 753 00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,360 maybe doing three sets. I think those are all like as 754 00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:04,160 you're continuing is doing slightly less but keeping the 755 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,560 quality the same. Those are all such great tips. 756 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:10,440 And I think, you know, talking about, OK, this workout is based 757 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,640 off of what an Olympic level male would do, particularly when 758 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:17,760 you're talking about the 800, the percent of contribution from 759 00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,440 anaerobic robic system versus aerobic system for guys running 760 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:27,080 143, that race is much more anaerobic than those of us 761 00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:32,440 running 220 or 225. So that means that our training 762 00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,320 has to be a little bit different and our reps and recovery have 763 00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:41,160 to be different simply because the energy system demands are 764 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,880 different due to the length of our race, the duration of our 765 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:50,000 race, not the distance. Absolutely, and also I was doing 766 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:58,240 some research the other day and the age-old 6040 for the 800 is 767 00:50:58,240 --> 00:51:01,200 probably more likely 7030 for females. 768 00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:03,280 Yeah. Isn't that interesting? 769 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,880 Yeah. So the last segment of this 770 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,360 episode, of course, we're going to talk about shoes and shoe 771 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,440 rotations. So I don't know if you're aware 772 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:18,320 of this study from 2015, we'll drop the study link into the 773 00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:21,720 show notes. But basically researchers found 774 00:51:21,720 --> 00:51:25,280 that runners who use more than one pair of shoes at a time 775 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,280 during their training, which they termed parallel use, had a 776 00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,920 38% lower risk of of running related entry. 777 00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,280 So basically if you have a shoe rotation, if in a given week you 778 00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:40,800 run in more than one pair of shoes regularly, you have a 779 00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:43,480 significantly decreased risk of injury. 780 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,360 And there aren't a whole lot of things that have been shown to 781 00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:51,680 reduce running related injury, but having a shoe rotation is 782 00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,960 one of them. So Jen, I would love to know 783 00:51:56,040 --> 00:52:00,080 what shoes you run in and have you, do you subscribe to that 784 00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,440 idea that you need a shoe rotation or have you without 785 00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,640 knowing about that study, have you just found that alternating 786 00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,680 shoes is helpful for you? I have a hard time with shoe 787 00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:17,160 math. And SO I know that, you know, 788 00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:20,840 apps like Strava allow you to track, you know, which shoe you 789 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,840 were wearing for which training run. 790 00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,360 I've never really gotten into adding that kind of data in. 791 00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:33,720 I do know from tracking that my shoes tend to only last about 792 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:37,440 300 miles, maybe slightly less than that. 793 00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:44,560 I'm predominantly A midfoot striker so I'll wear out the 794 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:49,240 front of the shoe and the heels actually look brand new because 795 00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:54,360 I put almost no resistance or pressure on the back when I'm 796 00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:58,280 running. So I've just naturally changed 797 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:01,800 my shoes faster than most people do. 798 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:06,960 So I don't hold onto a shoe very long and so I don't really 799 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:10,440 rotate my training shoes. But it would be wrong to say 800 00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,480 that I don't rotate shoes because I have different shoes 801 00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,000 for different purposes. Yeah, so. 802 00:53:16,720 --> 00:53:19,200 Yeah, in a given week. Rotate them but. 803 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,560 So like this week, I'm sure you've got some easy runs, maybe 804 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:27,520 a workout, maybe a race. So like what's your easy run 805 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,040 shoe? What shoe would you wear to do 806 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,000 like a tempo run and what do you race in? 807 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:38,560 So right now I'm running in the ASICS Gel Nimbus. 808 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:47,040 So it's very neutral, very squishy, and it really feels 809 00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:48,560 like I'm running on a little cloud. 810 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,400 It's it's kind of on the heavier side. 811 00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:58,120 So I definitely feel like a little clunky in it, but it 812 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,000 feels good when I'm out jogging. Like I can't feel the road and I 813 00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,920 feel like there's enough cushioning between my foot and 814 00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:12,680 the pavement. So that's sort of my, I guess, 815 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:18,400 general training shoe. This week I'll use the Streak 816 00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:24,280 Fly, the Nike Streak Fly for speed workouts at the Armory 817 00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,560 because we're not allowed to wear spikes during training 818 00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:32,320 sessions to preserve the track. I'm racing in the Nike 819 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:36,320 Dragonfly. I've been wearing that one 820 00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:41,440 probably since the beginning. I've tried some of the other mid 821 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,880 distance shoes and they don't work for me. 822 00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:50,200 The ones with the pods in them it makes us sneak as I turn and 823 00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:54,400 I I feel like it makes it sound like I'm a camel and it's like 824 00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:59,640 and I'm like what is that noise? So I don't wear that one because 825 00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:01,520 it doesn't work for my bio mechanics. 826 00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:05,000 I know people love it and their foot must just hit differently 827 00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:06,640 in the shoe but I can't stand it. 828 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:15,440 So other shoes that I have the ASICS magic speed. 829 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:20,880 So if I'm doing like longer reps 1000 meters, 12,000 or 1200 830 00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:25,560 meters worth of like interval reps, then I like something with 831 00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,600 like a little more soul. So that's like a 10K road racing 832 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,160 shoe that I really like on the track for longer reps. 833 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:38,960 I don't feel, I feel like the street fly is too squishy for 834 00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:43,040 really long reps It's just it's not enough between me and the 835 00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:46,280 ground. I also use the streak fly for 836 00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:52,520 Rd. mile races, which I love, and then the New Balance Super 837 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,000 Comp. So if I'm going out and I'm 838 00:55:55,000 --> 00:56:01,640 going to do a tempo run on the road or a progression run, that 839 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,720 one feels really light and there's a little bit of spring 840 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,120 in it with the plate. So it feels good when I'm 841 00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:14,480 running a longer run, so like 9 or 10 miles and I've got either 842 00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:16,240 a progression or a tempo built in. 843 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,920 Is it the Super comp elite or the Super comp trainer that you 844 00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:21,840 like? Is it the racing shoe? 845 00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:23,640 Oh OK. Yeah, nice. 846 00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:26,360 And which streak fly? Do you have their original 847 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,600 version or version 2? So I started off with the 848 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,960 original version, which I have to tell you, it took me about 849 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,200 four runs before I could get used to the squishiness. 850 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:42,680 I still have that shoe. I don't use it very often but 851 00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,560 sometimes I switched out and I will wear that one because it 852 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,840 doesn't have a plate in it, but I've been wearing the newer one 853 00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:53,160 with a plate. Yeah, I like First Streak fly 854 00:56:53,160 --> 00:56:57,400 one I basically only really liked for Hill Springs. 855 00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:02,080 It just felt too soft and like a little too loose in the upper 856 00:57:02,080 --> 00:57:03,720 for anything else. I agree. 857 00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:08,720 Yeah, version 2 is amazing. I raced a mile on the track in 858 00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:11,960 it, a 500. Yeah, if I'm not doing my 859 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:16,080 workout in spikes, I'm either using Streak Fly 2 or Topo 860 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:20,440 Cyclone 3. But Streak Fly 2 is in my 861 00:57:20,440 --> 00:57:22,600 opinion, the best option for Rd. miles. 862 00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,040 Like, hands down. Yeah, agreed. 863 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,040 Yeah, Nike did a great job with that. 864 00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:31,560 And then when you've raced halves, do you wear the Nike SC 865 00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,280 Elite or do you have a different racing shoe that you like? 866 00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,720 I wore the the New Balance super coat. 867 00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,120 Nice, Yeah. And do you know which version 868 00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,120 you have? OK, so I don't know which 869 00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,040 version it was but it was like banana yellow. 870 00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:51,240 And like a booty like upper. Yeah, yeah, that's version 3. 871 00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:54,760 Liked that shoe that was that was a gem. 872 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,560 The newer version I don't like as much. 873 00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:03,720 It feels firmer, it's less squishy, it feels wider. 874 00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:10,680 So I break out the version three if I have 1/2 marathon race, 875 00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,000 like it's almost like it's on its end of its life. 876 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,360 And so I just save it for like these days. 877 00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,560 It's your Golden Shoe. Literally. 878 00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:22,280 I loved that shoe. I I got more miles on that shoe 879 00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:25,160 than any other super shoe I've owned. 880 00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,640 I mainly used it for like long runs and workouts. 881 00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:32,360 But yeah, version 3 was the best version for me too. 882 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:36,920 I think you and I probably have similar mechanics if you like 883 00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:42,320 that shoe and I similarly I don't like more recent versions 884 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:45,720 of the SC Elite. You might like the ON Cloud Boom 885 00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:48,760 E3. It has a very similar feeling 886 00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,560 midsole and the fit is actually quite comfortable in the upper. 887 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:56,840 A lot of people think on shoes are very narrow in the toe box, 888 00:58:56,840 --> 00:58:58,760 but this one actually is pretty roomy. 889 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:03,920 Good, I will give that a try. So tell last question, what's 890 00:59:03,920 --> 00:59:05,520 coming up for you? Do you have any? 891 00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:07,760 I think you've got a race this week, right? 892 00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:13,640 Yeah, so I just finished up the 4 by 4 Miller Rose games 893 00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,760 yesterday and that went pretty well. 894 00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:23,720 And so this Friday, my last race of the season is at Rutger. 895 00:59:23,720 --> 00:59:27,680 Well, it's at the Armor, but it's the Rutgers Invitational. 896 00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:34,600 And so yeah, I'm really excited to run one more 800 this season. 897 00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:40,440 And then I kind of have to put my racing on pause because all 898 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,080 of the high school meets, the championships, it's just, it's, 899 00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:45,760 it's a lot of standing on my feet. 900 00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:51,040 And I find the balance of those really long state championships 901 00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:55,200 and training doesn't work so great together. 902 00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:59,640 My legs feel really, really tired after coaching all day so. 903 00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,760 Sure. Yeah, yeah, we've all got to 904 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:05,840 figure out how to balance. Training, work and life and 905 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:10,160 sometimes you just plan your races to fit around less busy 906 01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,360 times for work and life and that's how you can get the best 907 01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,480 results. Thanks so much for joining me 908 01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:18,240 today. I think our listeners will learn 909 01:00:18,240 --> 01:00:22,000 a lot about just a lot of things, masters track, but also 910 01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,440 just training as you know, whether you're a high school 911 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,120 athlete, collegiate, post collegiate or masters, how to 912 01:00:29,120 --> 01:00:33,000 adjust your training, things to focus on. 913 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:37,560 So thanks for taking the time to come on, listeners, as always, 914 01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:41,240 we love to hear from you. Leave us a comment down below. 915 01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:44,200 Send us an e-mail, doctorsofrunning@gmail.com. 916 01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:46,800 We love to hear from you. Thank you.