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This episode of the doctors 
running podcasts is sponsored by

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Also take a look at our podcast 
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Favorite ultra-soft, rabbit, 
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Matt clients, Daily Post, Run 
ritual, a scoop of scratch 

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coffee-flavored recovery mix 
Hello everybody and welcome to 

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the docks of running podcast, 
where we a group of doctors to 

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physical therapy, discuss the 
Art and Science of running, and 

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the stuff that we put on our 
feet today at the round table, 

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we have myself, Nathan, Brown, 
dr. 

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Matthew Klein. 
And then, to amazing guests, 

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we've spoken to both of these 
people before, but never in one 

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room and it is Jeff Burns and 
Dustin Joubert and we're just 

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very pumped to have both of you 
here. 

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Just a reminder. 
Dr. Jeff Burns. 

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He is currently the sports 
physiologist for the United. 

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States Olympic and paralympic 
committee. 

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Got his PhD from the University 
of Michigan. 

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Still go Badgers, but it's okay.
And, and yeah, so he's doing 

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still doing research and 
teaching adjunct on the side 

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with them but really pouring his
time in Colorado Springs. 

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And then Dustin is the guy that 
you probably know is lab rat, 

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run down and he does a lot of 
metabolic testing with shoes 

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that we call Super Shoes and and
has been able to post a lot of 

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Independent testing through his 
Instagram again, lab rat, run 

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down, but also is publishing 
papers. 

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And that's really what we're 
here today because these two 

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work together on a paper to get 
it published. 

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Congratulations to you all where
they talk about the effects of 

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Highly cushioned and resilient 
Racing shoes on running economy 

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at slower running speeds. 
So Jeff and Dustin. 

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Thanks so much for joining us 
today. 

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Don't know. 
Pleasure. 

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Thanks for having us. 
Absolutely happy to be here for 

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my closet. 
Guys of the new house. 

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Dustin got his, what was it? 
You said like three hours ago. 

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The internet got hooked up in 
your new house. 

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Yeah. 
So and the it will roll with 

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what we got. 
It's pretty fun. 

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So I know it's a crazy weekend 
for you. 

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So thanks for giving up time and
and talking about shoes of all 

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things. 
So I just want to give you both 

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a quick platform just to 
introduce yourself, maybe a 

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little bit further and In any 
recent things that you've been 

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up to in terms of your works, I 
know Dustin. 

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You just went through a 
transition in terms of where you

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were working with the 
university. 

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So let's start with you. 
What kind of updates do you have

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for us in our audience since the
last time you've been with us? 

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Yeah, so I moved from from deep 
east Texas where it's hard to 

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recruit Runners for first 
research, studies, what was 

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that? 
Stephen F, Austin State 

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University previously? 
And now I'm in Austin, Texas at 

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a small liberal arts school but 
I'm saying, Word university, but

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in the heart of Austin, with a 
great running community. 

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So, we're about to start a 
recruiting for a project this 

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Summer that I'm excited about, 
because I think that would be a 

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lot easier. 
Let's go around. 

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But yeah. 
So I'm a Kinesiology faculty 

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here at st. 
Edwards University. 

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I'm an exercise physiologist. 
I'm always quick to tell you 

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that, I'm not a bio mechanist. 
So, so and I've been around 

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around my life around a little 
less now, but still We'll have 

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competitive goals, so yeah, you 
just rant Boston this year, 

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right? 
I did. 

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Yeah, yeah, that was my third 
Marathon first trip out there. 

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It was, it was a honestly, was 
our first trip flying with a 

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four-year-old. 
So that was probably the biggest

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challenge. 
Yeah. 

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And walking all over Boston with
the same four-year-old. 

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Yeah, but no, it was like being 
the race itself was awesome. 

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I mean, just nothing like it in 
terms of the Number of as people

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on course and then just, you 
know, the crowds on the roads 

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and stuff was great experience. 
Yeah, very cool. 

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Well, congrats on that and Jeff.
What about you? 

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What's? 
What's new in your world? 

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Yeah. 
So I'm yeah, I'm physiologist 

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with the US Olympic and 
paralympic committee. 

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I'm lead physiologist for our 
paralympic Sports. 

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So the last the last year has 
been just too crazy. 

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Daisy cool learning experience 
for me. 

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You know, taking you know what 
we know about? 

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I would say physiology and 
sports Sciences training, 

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paradigms stuff like that. 
And then say adapting it or, you

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know, I'm trying to customize it
for ya for the different that 

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would say paralympic sports and 
athletes wear like really each 

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athlete is this like hyper 
unique case study. 

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So it's been super And to really
blend physiology sport sciences 

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and then also like, you know, 
some of my background in 

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biomechanics as well. 
Yeah. 

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So it's been a total blast. 
It's like I feel like every day 

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I have to like learn something 
totally new from like you know 

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circadian patterns and athletes 
with visual impairments to you 

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know like differences in 
mechanics of below the knee 

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verse above the knee, you know, 
idle or unilateral. 

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Amputations like there. 
More regulation and athletes 

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with spinal cord injury. 
Like crazy. 

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Yeah so that's been a blast and 
then yeah. 

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And then at the same time 
getting to just essentially do 

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science with the athletes and 
coaches so it's been it's been 

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cool but then yeah and the side 
have been able to continue 

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research through. 
Yeah, through the University of 

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Michigan still have faculty 
appointment there. 

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And yeah, I've been able to 
teach a little bit as well as 

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just Keep going on this stuff 
which is, which is a lot of fun.

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And, and honestly, I feel like 
I've been able to dig into shoe 

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stuff at least on the applied 
side. 

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Much more over this past year 
than I did, when I was at 

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Michigan, because now, I have 
athletes coming to me, you know,

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like wanting to select shoes. 
And and so both on me, you know,

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paralympic side as well as on 
the Olympic site, I've worked 

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with triathletes and Runners, 
you know, it's kind of become a 

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bit of a niche. 
Person for those for those 

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athletes. 
I'm not. 

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So it's been. 
It's been super cool to see, you

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know, pretty unique populations 
of athletes, like and how they 

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respond to the different shoes. 
Yeah, so it's been that's been 

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fun and then I'm, you know, I 
also run competitively, myself, 

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think we talked about that in 
the last one and then shortly 

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after that I saw you guys at the
national championships with 

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100K. 
Yes. 

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Yeah I went and I ended up 
getting Getting on the team and 

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compete at the World 
Championships later that year 

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for the us. 
And it was it was a it was a bit

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of a bummer. 
I think I put together one of my

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best training blocks in a while.
But I got sick the day before 

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the race. 
No. 

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Wow. 
And I just felt like I felt 

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like, he'll like my heart rate 
was super high and yeah. 

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So ended up not racing quite as 
well as it was probably the 

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first time that that's happened 
to me like competitively at 

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least since College we're kind 
of On the on the big day. 

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Something just didn't, it didn't
connect. 

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So anyways, yeah, so that that 
happened but then yeah I'm 

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actually going to be I was going
to race comrades this year and 

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in June but actually just 
decided a couple weeks ago and I

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think I'm going to go in next 
week. 

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I'm going to have surgery on my 
foot because again this is 

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something I think I'd talk to 
you guys about but something 

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that's bugged me for the last 
couple years and kind of held me

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back in training. 
Yeah. 

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So going to go under the knife 
Hopefully, hopefully, can I get 

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back to my old self training 
wise so? 

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Well, good luck on that journey 
to is that I know. 

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Yeah, we got to talk at the 
Championships about that a 

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little bit. 
So I hope this brings you on a 

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good trajectory and then all the
journey afterwards is smooth and

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gets you where you want to go. 
So yeah. 

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Oh, so cool. 
Well, again, the reason we 

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wanted to bring you both 
together is because you both, 

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collaborated on a study, I read 
the title before but at the 

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effects of Highly cushioned and 
I ain't Racing shoes on running 

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economy at slower running 
speeds. 

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You publish that in the 
international Journal of sports 

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physiology and performance. 
And we really want to get from 

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you. 
Yes, we want to talk about the 

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results in the outcomes, what 
you found, what kind of start 

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there. 
But then we want to dive a 

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little bit deeper and talk about
the questions that you've been 

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asking that weren't that didn't 
even flush out in the study 

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necessarily or some questions 
that you have moving forward. 

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So first can one of you, I don't
really care which one but Kind 

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of some just overview of what 
you found in the study, how you 

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conducted the study and kind of 
how long that process takes kick

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that Dustin because he's the, 
he's the architect great. 

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Thus in this is all you do. 
Sounds good. 

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Yeah. 
So I mean, initial question was 

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most of the research that had 
been done previously with like 

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the new Super Shoes. 
Most of it's on like the vapor 

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fly line but you're looking at 
studies that pretty consistently

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like seven-minute mile pace and 
faster and We basically had the 

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question, like are the benefits 
the same at slower speeds and 

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you're considering seven-minute 
mile. 

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Pace is almost with three hour 
marathon and most people are 

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running marathons slower than 
that, even even at competitive 

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races. 
So we tested at 10 and 12 

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kilometers per hour which is 
eight-minute mile Pace on the 

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fast in there and like 940 is 
Pace. 

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I think on the slow end just 
looking at the vapor fly 

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compared to like a standard 
control shoe and we did that in 

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16. 
Great man, eight women and 

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basically measured running 
economy as your, their option 

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consumption, energy expenditure 
at those fix speeds in those two

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different shoes and Quantified, 
the the running economy 

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benefits. 
So where's previous studies? 

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00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:42,300
Had shown maybe up or two 
percent up to four percent or 

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00:10:42,300 --> 00:10:45,200
so, on average benefit of these 
different shoes depending on 

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like the comparison to you're 
looking at at the faster speeds,

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we saw at the eight-minute mile 
pace around, 1.5 percent running

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County benefit on Age. 
So I'm still substantial, but 

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reduce compared to like the 
magnitude in our previous 

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research and at the slower speed
at the 10 kilometers per hour 

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around 9:40 Pace, we saw that 
even less than 1% the benefit so

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that was kind of the, the 
average breakdown. 

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So beneficial, when you look at 
like the statistics compared to 

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the control shoe, but reduced in
magnitude compared to some of 

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the studies out there at faster 
speeds and and some of the stuff

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I've done in my lab as well at 
faster speeds. 

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00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:26,600
So that was, that was kind of a 
big run down. 

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00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,000
Yes. 
And so kind of breaking it down 

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even further. 
So that aggregate was kind of 

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that either less than 1% 1.5 
percent, depending on speed, how

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much variability was there 
between the subjects? 

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Kind of, what kind of ranges 
were you seeing, and what was 

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your control shoe? 
Because that, like, you said 

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matters between these studies. 
Kind of what you're comparing 

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00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:47,500
the benefits to. 
Yeah. 

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00:11:47,500 --> 00:11:50,700
Yeah. 
So our control shoe that I've 

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used in my lab consistently. 
Is that a six hyperspeed? 

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So we had that. 
As a control shoe in the 

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previous study, I did at 
six-minute Mile Pace. 

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You know, that the vapor fly was
up 42 percent of yeah, like 2.7 

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00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:06,600
percent or so I think benefit 
compared to the hyperspeed. 

228
00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,600
So at to that same comparison to
your seeing smaller magnitude 

229
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,200
and my lab specifically. 
But yeah, there we go. 

230
00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,100
That's a great topic. 
Yeah, off topic version 2, I 

231
00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:18,800
think is a lot better, but that 
is a totally different 

232
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,300
conversation. 
I enjoy that you actually. 

233
00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:23,800
I think, I think am I running 
economy benefit tested in the 

234
00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:27,700
lab might A smaller now because 
I've run into my control shoe, 

235
00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:32,200
I'm good at it now. 
Well, my additional variables 

236
00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:33,600
there. 
That's just well, that's me /. 

237
00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:35,500
Yes, we are. 
Yeah, and that's humor. 

238
00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,000
Okay. 
The guy said you had some 

239
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,200
running Warehouse pretty cheap. 
I highly encourage if you're 

240
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,800
like person, got trying to 
psychoanalyze. 

241
00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:44,500
Do you like it? 
I gotta go. 

242
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,800
The hard thing is it's like 
finding finding a like a control

243
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,500
shoe that you can buy right? 
Like they're getting rarer and 

244
00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:57,600
rarer and re do But yeah, I 
think that's one of the 

245
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,100
questions I have to about 
control shoes. 

246
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:04,100
Has this is to the hyperspeed. 
So for those who aren't familiar

247
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:08,800
with the hyperspeed, the hyper 
speed, is a lighter shoe, you 

248
00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:13,700
know, it's very lightweight, and
it's a little bit lower stacked,

249
00:13:13,700 --> 00:13:15,800
it doesn't have a plate. 
It's kind of just like a more 

250
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,100
traditional racing flat as we 
would think of traditional 

251
00:13:18,100 --> 00:13:21,700
racing Flats. 
Whereas, if you were to take, 

252
00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,200
you know, the shoe like the 
hyper speed. 

253
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,900
Instead of using that as a 
control shoe using a Burke's 

254
00:13:26,900 --> 00:13:30,600
ghost, which people who are 
running kind of that, maybe 

255
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,400
eight minute per mile nine, 
thirty minute per mile marathon.

256
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:36,200
They're not necessarily going to
ever grab a hyper speed and 

257
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,100
racing that for their Marathon. 
They're going to probably grab 

258
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,500
maybe Hoka Bondi or you know 
Mizuno Wave Rider or something 

259
00:13:43,500 --> 00:13:45,200
more like traditional daily 
trainer. 

260
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,100
Jeff I'll pitch this one to you.
So when you think about the 

261
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,500
benefits that people saw between
hyperspeed and, you know, these 

262
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:56,200
higher Actriz, only what we 
call, quote, unquote, super 

263
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:57,800
shoes. 
How much of a difference? 

264
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,100
Do you think there would be a 
few used a different control 

265
00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:03,500
shoe for somebody's debating? 
Do I run in my ghost that I feel

266
00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:05,600
really comfortable in? 
Or should I run in? 

267
00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:10,500
I don't know the vapor fly or 
any of these other Super Shoes. 

268
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:12,400
Dad. 
It's a good question. 

269
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:18,000
I think it's like depends on 
maybe two things dominantly that

270
00:14:18,300 --> 00:14:20,300
are going to differ for 
everybody. 

271
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,300
So now there's not going to be a
satisfying answer here. 

272
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,300
But science, this is anyway. 
That's why I asked it. 

273
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:28,100
Yep. 
Yeah. 

274
00:14:29,500 --> 00:14:33,900
But yeah, so I'm obviously the 
weight is it is a, that's a, 

275
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:35,600
that's an easy piece to deal 
with. 

276
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:40,100
So like all things equal that 
hyperspeed being so light is 

277
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:45,600
going to be very beneficial on 
that front, but then the other 

278
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:49,100
piece that kind of works into 
there is what the cushioning 

279
00:14:49,100 --> 00:14:51,900
does. 
And that's where it's really 

280
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:56,500
complex for individuals because 
So a little bit of cushioning is

281
00:14:56,500 --> 00:15:01,300
a beneficial thing, but at the 
same time a good bit of 

282
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:04,400
cushioning that is very lossy 
that is EVA foam. 

283
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:10,100
That's not as resilient is at 
some point then it becomes a 

284
00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:13,100
little too lossy but that that 
varies for everybody. 

285
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:18,700
So like some there are some 
people for whom that that like 

286
00:15:18,700 --> 00:15:23,100
for talking you know, the hoca, 
you know Clifton or something 

287
00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:24,100
like that. 
Yeah. 

288
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,100
Super light. 
Yeah, or the maybe the hookah 

289
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:33,600
Rincon is like maybe a little 
bit closer to the in weight, you

290
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,000
know. 
It's, that's a big chunk of that

291
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:38,100
EVA foam. 
That there are some people that,

292
00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:43,300
like, the, the savings on their 
muscles that having that 

293
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:47,000
cushioning, even though it's not
returning, energy, might might 

294
00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:53,200
supersede the the energy that 
you don't even get back from 

295
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:57,200
the, you know, the response of 
it whereas other people losing 

296
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,700
all that. 
Energy might then become, you 

297
00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:02,600
know, way that cost-benefit 
analysis, so it's going to be 

298
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,600
different for everybody. 
But if I had to bet dollars to 

299
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,600
doughnuts, I would say most 
people would probably be a bit 

300
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:16,900
more economical in like that 
light, that light flat like the 

301
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:22,000
hyper speed. 
Now then, like, I mean, how that

302
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:27,600
then extends over a marathon 
though is like kind of the then 

303
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:32,100
The next dimensional question 
that is I think we know less 

304
00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,800
about for sure. 
And there could be for some 

305
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:39,400
people that the damage that you 
do to your legs in that 

306
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,400
hyperspeed. 
If your if if you don't have the

307
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,400
structures to like really 
cushion yourself, well you could

308
00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,900
incur enough muscular damage 
that you then your economy 

309
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:52,000
deteriorates at the end of the 
at the end of the race. 

310
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:55,500
And you then become it becomes 
less beneficial. 

311
00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:59,100
So we kind of have this game of 
like, say like four dimensional 

312
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:01,000
chess that we're trying to like 
play with these different 

313
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,800
variables. 
Yes, and yeah. 

314
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,800
So, but again, if we were just 
looking at the lab, I would say 

315
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,200
for most people, it's probably 
going to be more advantageous to

316
00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:14,900
be in that hyperspeed. 
And then the other thing that 

317
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:18,599
this is, this is, you know, this
is a piece that comes up and 

318
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:23,400
testing these a lot and we can 
have Dustin speak to this a 

319
00:17:23,407 --> 00:17:25,300
little bit later because he's 
played around with this. 

320
00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:28,600
But another thing that 
dramatically affects like How 

321
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:33,400
we, you know how these shoes 
affect us is the surface that 

322
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:39,200
we're testing these on. 
So treadmills by Nature like any

323
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,900
commercial Fitness treadmill 
that you go and use or probably 

324
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:46,500
most that you know, people have 
in their house and that are 

325
00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:50,200
listening to this, I would say 
operate a lot like that, Hoka 

326
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,500
shoe that is very soft but it 
doesn't return a lot of energy 

327
00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,100
but that's beneficial, you know 
to some degree Agree. 

328
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,000
So that that slight give that. 
That treadmill has, that makes 

329
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,000
you more efficient running on it
and that's where running on the 

330
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,000
treadmill. 
You know, a lot is made of the 

331
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:11,000
air resistance and, you know, 
putting it at an incline to 

332
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,100
better simulate outside. 
But really the thing that might 

333
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:19,500
be most beneficial about a 
treadmill, is the that 

334
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:25,500
compliance that soft deck and so
that, you know, even though most

335
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:28,200
people will swear that running 
on a treadmill, I was like 

336
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,600
slower than going outside. 
Put your heart rate monitor on. 

337
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,000
And I guarantee you at a ski 
that you're running, it's going 

338
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:39,300
to be easier on your body to run
on that treadmill it made like 

339
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:42,200
you may feel like you're in a 
Time Warp and like everything 

340
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,800
just slows down and efforts 
whacked-out, but like your body 

341
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,200
physiologically is having an 
easier time and running that 

342
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,900
same speed outside. 
So then extend that to how we 

343
00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:55,500
study this like asphalt is very 
different than that and so I 

344
00:18:55,508 --> 00:18:57,700
think that that that's kind of 
another dimension. 

345
00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:01,700
Dimension to how we test and 
assess these shoes where? 

346
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:10,000
Yeah, the the stiffness of that 
treadmill deck will will, you 

347
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,900
know, have a big, have a big 
influence on that. 

348
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,700
So yeah, that makes a lot of 
sense. 

349
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:18,400
And I think when I'm hearing 
from you to is somebody who's 

350
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,600
running that eight to nine and a
half minute mile, big picture 

351
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,500
will likely, we don't know for 
sure. 

352
00:19:23,500 --> 00:19:27,000
Likely have a better better 
running economy in a typical 

353
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,800
daily trainer. 
That's a little bit heavier than

354
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,500
they'll have a worse running 
economy than in that then the 

355
00:19:32,500 --> 00:19:35,900
hyper speed, which then would 
accentuate the total benefit if 

356
00:19:35,900 --> 00:19:39,600
you jump all the way to a Super 
Shoe potentially for that 

357
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:42,800
person. 
So the theory though, less than 

358
00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,800
1% one and a half percent. 
To some extent, might bump up 

359
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:51,300
would be the hypothesis? 
Is that correct in my following 

360
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:58,400
the train of logic there or not 
quite can use They're not clear 

361
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,100
that. 
Yeah, I want to, I want to make 

362
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:01,700
sure I'm getting this. 
Yes. 

363
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,700
Walter to rephrase kind of in 
that framework, I would say, you

364
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:10,300
know, that eight to nine minute 
mile, ER, again, I think that 

365
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:13,600
there's, there's just going to 
be enormous variability of some 

366
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,700
people are just going to 
outright be more economical in 

367
00:20:17,700 --> 00:20:23,300
that super light flat, but that 
may not be sustainable over 

368
00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:28,000
several hours of running. 
So that even though it's Italy 

369
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,400
more economical and may 
deteriorate over the marathon. 

370
00:20:32,700 --> 00:20:35,200
And then so that's, you know, in
one case. 

371
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,600
But then, there are also going 
to be those cases that you 

372
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,600
alluded to where there may be 
people that I would say 

373
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,600
superseded that lightness and 
get a little bit more benefit 

374
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,500
from the cushioning in the, in 
the softer shoe. 

375
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:52,100
So yeah, yeah, perfect. 
So that's one of the challenges,

376
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,000
right? 
Because we're testing them in a 

377
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,600
non fatigued state, right? 
We're doing shorter terms. 

378
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,000
Stuff. 
And then trying to extrapolate 

379
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,900
it over a distance where fatigue
becomes a factor so like the 

380
00:21:02,900 --> 00:21:05,500
Foams in the resiliency. 
Yes, we make these kind of 

381
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:07,500
assumptions, maybe not 
predictions. 

382
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:09,900
Maybe is the better term than 
assumptions, but it's not that 

383
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:12,500
far off that whatever is going 
to happen to be able to 

384
00:21:12,508 --> 00:21:14,100
maintain. 
But as you're mentioning, there 

385
00:21:14,100 --> 00:21:17,100
are going to be decrements like 
this kind of shoe. 

386
00:21:17,100 --> 00:21:20,400
Like you said, just to translate
that's going to take more work 

387
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,400
out of your musculoskeletal 
system to handle running in 

388
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:24,600
that. 
That's what we know about. 

389
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,300
Firmer shoes. 
Less cushion shoes versus the 

390
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:30,100
more Runs and then adding 
resilience on the top, that is a

391
00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,900
different equation, but that's 
where I think some of the 

392
00:21:33,908 --> 00:21:36,700
challenges coming as. 
Yes, in the short term, we see 

393
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:39,400
these economy changes but what's
really happening over that long 

394
00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,700
term, so that makes me wonder 
can we test them in a fatigue 

395
00:21:42,700 --> 00:21:46,900
State and see what happens but 
that might be off topic. 

396
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:49,000
Just curious my brains going 
there. 

397
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,200
Yeah. 
And you know, I can maybe I can 

398
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:57,600
jump in on that and you come in 
come in from Left Field. 

399
00:21:57,700 --> 00:22:01,900
Yeah. 
So today just about two hours 

400
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:05,500
ago, I think this question of, 
like, the fatigue effect of 

401
00:22:05,508 --> 00:22:07,700
these shoes. 
And, and I think, I think this 

402
00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:11,400
will come full circle to this 
study with Dustin and we can 

403
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,600
talk about this. 
But, you know, for what it means

404
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,700
for this, you know, this smaller
economy benefit in the Super 

405
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:22,400
Shoes. 
So I, you know, I've thought for

406
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,500
a while that this like this 
fatigue question is kind of the 

407
00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:27,600
white whale of like the Super 
Shoes studies. 

408
00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:33,400
Like how do, how does the 
economy change over an entire 

409
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,800
marathon? 
And it's like it's easy to think

410
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,200
about testing that but it's like
a pain in the ass to like do 

411
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,000
that testing because you're, you
know, you essentially need to 

412
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,900
run a marathon and test your 
shoes right before or the early 

413
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:52,300
stages and then at the later 
stages and that's that's 

414
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:54,700
challenging because it's running
a marathon. 

415
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:56,600
Is that? 
First of all, is that going to 

416
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,900
pass IRB? 
B and then second of all who's 

417
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:02,800
gonna sign up for that, I was 
going to say except maybe Jeff. 

418
00:23:02,900 --> 00:23:08,700
Yeah I have I wrote an IRB that 
went through it, right before I 

419
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,200
left Michigan, last year. 
Like it got approved freely like

420
00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:13,900
a few months before and it's 
still, it's still out there. 

421
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:18,200
So it's like, oh, IRB approval 
for this sudden, great. 

422
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:26,600
But so, I will say, I today, 
this is hot off the press 

423
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,700
breaking. 
I piloted that study. 

424
00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:34,900
Yeah. 
So I this morning or not this 

425
00:23:34,900 --> 00:23:38,300
morning like midday recent I 
there's about two hours ago that

426
00:23:38,300 --> 00:23:40,000
I finished. 
I ran a marathon on the 

427
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,600
treadmill and I had those who 
don't know. 

428
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,800
It know him. 
This is just a normal level for 

429
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,600
Jeff. 
This is just an average day. 

430
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,900
Yeah, yeah. 
So had went into the lab and 

431
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,400
yeah, we have would weigh 
treadmills in there and had the 

432
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:01,800
Parvo 2400 true on metabolic 
cart kind of tried and true. 

433
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,800
Yeah. 
And and I and I decided to take 

434
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,500
measurements at the beginning 
middle and end. 

435
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:15,100
And my protocol was I would run 
and the two shoes. 

436
00:24:15,100 --> 00:24:18,900
I was testing was my control is 
the Saucony can Vara 12. 

437
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,500
So couple models ago. 
Again, I think I need to like go

438
00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:24,400
and stock up. 
I've actually heard this is a 

439
00:24:24,408 --> 00:24:28,500
tangent that they are going to 
be releasing the Invar on as 

440
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:32,500
both a pebax and Eva option. 
Is this correct? 

441
00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:35,300
So, that that would be, I'm 
gonna get in trouble for this, 

442
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,900
the normal. 
And there's going to be a 

443
00:24:36,900 --> 00:24:40,500
conveyor, a pro as well, because
I've heard some other rumors 

444
00:24:40,500 --> 00:24:43,200
about what you're talking about,
but I don't know the answer to 

445
00:24:43,208 --> 00:24:44,000
that. 
Okay. 

446
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,800
I'll take the conveyor amateur 
for a congestion amateur like 

447
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:54,000
that, but anyway, so yeah. 
So I use the conveyor and for, 

448
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:57,500
for reference and this will 
begin a good context to is like,

449
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,700
like last time I did testing 
across the suite of shoes, I 

450
00:25:00,708 --> 00:25:03,700
myself was last summer and 
that's what I use as my control 

451
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:06,000
shoe. 
And I got about at that time. 

452
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,800
I got about a five percent 
benefit in the vapor fly in the 

453
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:15,300
alpha fly relative to that. 
So anyway, so I decided to use 

454
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:21,100
the use that shoe again and so I
went I did essentially 8 km, I 

455
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:23,400
broke it up and I essentially 
repeated the same thing. 

456
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,700
Three times, I went eight 
kilometers steady and then did 

457
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,800
for trial. 
One and a half kilometers, so 

458
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,000
you can thank your listeners. 
It's five miles, and then about 

459
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:40,200
four by mile. 
And the order I went was I did 

460
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,000
all the running in the kinvaras,
by the way. 

461
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,400
Mrs. I think this is the 
important piece for this 

462
00:25:44,500 --> 00:25:48,300
comparison because again, this 
is actually in my, I think I 

463
00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:50,900
wrote an IRB for like, a, very 
elaborate study that I don't 

464
00:25:50,900 --> 00:25:54,500
know if we'll ever do all of it,
but it's like to get people to 

465
00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:58,500
run two marathons because you 
want to Able to see if there's 

466
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:03,000
any change if you run the 
marathon in the control shoe, as

467
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,900
well as if you run it in the 
Super Shoe. 

468
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,000
Yes. 
But anyways, I ran in the 

469
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,400
kinvaras so I ran that first 
chunk. 

470
00:26:10,500 --> 00:26:14,100
And then I went, you know, as we
do in these studies do it, you 

471
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:18,700
know, and this is what did in 
this study as well. 

472
00:26:19,300 --> 00:26:24,900
What you'd call a mirrored, a 
mirror design where you go shoo,

473
00:26:25,100 --> 00:26:30,200
shoo, be shoe a shoe, a shoe, be
And so I went was writing the 

474
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,400
conveyor and when Alpha fly mrs.
My super shoe that I was going 

475
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,800
to use was the alpha fly to help
a fly. 

476
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,100
Can varric envira Alpha fly. 
And I did the trials at 16 

477
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,400
kilometers an hour, which is 
about six-minute mile pace. 

478
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:48,100
And then, prior to that, I kind 
of the eight-minute or 8 km 

479
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:53,100
chunk, 25-mile chunk, I did, 
kind of, like, progressing from.

480
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:57,500
I was about eight minute pace 
down to about 650 pace for the, 

481
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,000
First half, and then 650 pace 
through the second half of it. 

482
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:06,500
And the reason I did that was 
like, one I'm not in, like, I 

483
00:27:06,500 --> 00:27:10,200
would say high-end shape right 
now, we just talked at the 

484
00:27:10,208 --> 00:27:14,300
beginning of the movie getting 
surgery in about every week, but

485
00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:20,600
uh, I'm at altitude to, so I'll 
like give that qualifier. 

486
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:26,200
But anyways, so I because I went
for this last weekend actually 

487
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:32,600
and Got to the very end the last
trial and I was just like, I was

488
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,500
like bonking hard and like, 
seeing Stars, I'm like, I can't,

489
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:40,100
I'm like here I'm almost done 
but I can't finish it because if

490
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:42,800
I run fast I'm going to fall off
the treadmill. 

491
00:27:43,700 --> 00:27:45,800
That's like which I actually did
that. 

492
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,500
A couple weeks ago I fell on the
treadmill is kind of a it's a 

493
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:55,100
very wild vestibular experience 
but anyways, so went yeah, I 

494
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:57,500
went a little bit like tampered 
it back. 

495
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,500
Back a little bit. 
I'm not like kind of middle 

496
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,600
segments, so anyways, so I did 
that and I repeated that three 

497
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,800
times. 
So you can think again, is 8 

498
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,600
kilometers for by one and a half
Ka km for by one-and-a-half, a 

499
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:10,800
km for by one and a half. 
So, again, it's kind of like 

500
00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:15,400
five miles for by mile five 
miles for by mile, five miles 

501
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,400
for by my. 
Yeah, and, and essentially just 

502
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:25,600
took those economy measurements.
So, what I found after, you guys

503
00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:33,700
had to head to bear with the The
several paragraphs pulled up 

504
00:28:33,700 --> 00:28:37,700
here. 
The difference between them in 

505
00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:41,100
the first trial was two point 
nine percent. 

506
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,700
So the alpha fly was two point, 
nine percent more beneficial and

507
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,700
that's that's I would say 
probably on the order of 

508
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:50,800
magnitude to what you know 
Dustin scene and some of his 

509
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,600
studies. 
But I think it also speaks to 

510
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,600
the level of like variability 
that we have, right? 

511
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:01,000
Again I I'd say the last time I 
tested I tested myself in the 

512
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:05,000
freedom a couple weeks ago 
relative to the alpha fly which 

513
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,900
is a pebax shoe but it doesn't 
have a plate in it. 

514
00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,400
That was about those three 
percent more efficient and they 

515
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,700
also fly. 
So anyways I was two point nine 

516
00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:19,200
percent more efficient, the 
second round, I was four point, 

517
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:25,700
one percent, more efficient, the
third round, I was three point. 

518
00:29:25,700 --> 00:29:30,100
Three percent more efficient, 
The most, like, as I was 

519
00:29:30,100 --> 00:29:32,800
crunching these numbers, like 
literally, right before I jumped

520
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:37,200
on this call, I've got after I 
got through the second one, I 

521
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:41,600
was like, whoa, interesting. 
Like got the third ones like the

522
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,000
most unsatisfying thing. 
Like I wanted to like percent I 

523
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,300
know. 
And I will say, the interesting 

524
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:52,200
thing is the second that middle 
one, I felt the worst and I will

525
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,100
say I took like less gels than I
would because you don't want to 

526
00:29:56,100 --> 00:30:00,900
mess up. 
The testing too much but took 

527
00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:04,000
fewer gels and I normally would.
But in the middle yeah, I felt 

528
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,700
just like mechanically. 
I didn't feel as good and I had 

529
00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:10,100
even like written in written 
that in my log afterwards of 

530
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:11,600
like the middle one, was the 
hardest one. 

531
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:16,200
But then at the end at the end, 
the difference between the two 

532
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,800
shoes felt the greatest like 
when I was doing like that last 

533
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,700
trial, I was like, oh my gosh, 
this feels like night and day, 

534
00:30:23,700 --> 00:30:25,900
like it couldn't have felt more 
different. 

535
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:31,500
So I was pretty Eyes to see that
and my, my economy really didn't

536
00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,900
change through all that either. 
So there I think two things 

537
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:37,800
going on there. 
That again is extremely 

538
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,100
unsatisfying but is also good 
why we do these you know this 

539
00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:46,000
woodpile it if I did that ten 
more times which I really don't 

540
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,300
want to do. 
I'm curious. 

541
00:30:49,300 --> 00:30:52,900
What would happen there like 
what the noise is because we I 

542
00:30:52,908 --> 00:30:55,600
mean, there is, I think a very 
definitive jump in that second 

543
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,800
round where Where it became you 
know more beneficial to me in 

544
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,700
the alpha flight and again it 
correspond to my sensations of 

545
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:08,100
just feeling like not fluid but 
then the end it's like a little 

546
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,500
bit noisier. 
So I think two things one I 

547
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:15,200
definitely wasn't maxed out like
I would be at the end of a 

548
00:31:15,208 --> 00:31:18,100
marathon, you know, like I was I
didn't feel like I was finishing

549
00:31:18,100 --> 00:31:20,300
a marathon. 
I felt like I'd been running a 

550
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:22,300
while and I was tired but I 
wasn't. 

551
00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:27,000
I wasn't at that like bodily 
limit that we take ourselves 

552
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,700
too. 
And two, I was doing this on a 

553
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:34,300
Wood Way treadmill, which is, 
you know, those are rubber slats

554
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:39,600
and that I would say has the 
potential to dilute the economy,

555
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,000
benefit of a super shoe a little
bit because hey, I'm not going 

556
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,300
to be incurring. 
The damage that I would on a on 

557
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:52,300
the pavement or on a really 
stiff rock-hard treadmill, so I 

558
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,700
would say that deteriorations 
probably not there. 

559
00:31:55,700 --> 00:32:00,400
So I think my Unfortunately, my 
follow-up might have to be going

560
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,400
and running for like two hours 
outside and then coming back and

561
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,600
doing the the test. 
But so I think it, I think, at 

562
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,700
first pass I saw my takeaway was
that, like, saw a little bit of 

563
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:15,200
an economy deterioration through
this with fatigue, which I think

564
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,700
is. 
Yeah. 

565
00:32:16,700 --> 00:32:19,900
Well, you know what, we might 
hypothesize and I think if you, 

566
00:32:20,300 --> 00:32:23,400
if you extended that to the 
muscular damage that you might 

567
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,300
have and fatigue in a marathon, 
I think I think it. 

568
00:32:27,500 --> 00:32:30,400
Hands to that that difference 
might for their blow up. 

569
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:35,000
So, yeah, right, it's 
interesting to me that there was

570
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,500
there didn't seem to be much of 
a connection between how you 

571
00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:41,200
perceived, how things are 
feeling and your economy which I

572
00:32:41,208 --> 00:32:46,700
think it was Donato several 
years ago, the did a study where

573
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:51,700
they looked at like biomechanics
versus perception and they found

574
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:54,500
that their things really similar
like, the people couldn't tell 

575
00:32:54,500 --> 00:32:56,400
like that. 
One thing might feel really good

576
00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:00,900
but then that wasn't actually 
how it was impacting their bio 

577
00:33:00,900 --> 00:33:03,400
mechanics, which is interesting 
to me that or a perception which

578
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,600
goes back to the other comment, 
write about like you know the 

579
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,100
how we feel internally is may 
not be matching like that's a 

580
00:33:10,108 --> 00:33:12,700
totally different set of things 
than the bye. 

581
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,000
Mechanics and even probably 
David in this case, the 

582
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,900
physiology. 
Yeah, I think. 

583
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:19,500
I mean, there's, there's a 
little bit of both though and 

584
00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:21,800
the sense that like, on the 
second trial. 

585
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:25,600
I definitely, again, I felt the 
worst. 

586
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:29,400
And yeah, I would say in both 
shoes, but you definitely felt 

587
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,600
like, I mean through it. 
All I can tell you it's like, 

588
00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:36,200
it's crazy. 
The difference between an old 

589
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:39,400
racing flatness Super Shoe when 
you run in them side-by-side 

590
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,700
like and do a counterbalance 
design, it is crazy. 

591
00:33:42,900 --> 00:33:47,900
Like like that. 
My economy was only 2.9% like, 

592
00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:51,500
in the first trial was shocking 
to me because it's like like 

593
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:55,500
dreading putting the, the rods 
icon, but to your point it's 

594
00:33:55,500 --> 00:33:58,400
like I'm one hand. 
I had that sensation of like 

595
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,800
that second trial being like I 
feel like way worse and and, you

596
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,700
know, I would say it almost they
didn't feel any different 

597
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:12,600
relative to each other, but I 
felt less economical which the 

598
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,900
The funny thing is like, looking
at the numbers now, I was more 

599
00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:19,800
economical and both shoes when I
was feeling worse, I was just 

600
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,500
much more economical in the 
alpha fly. 

601
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:25,500
And then at the end when it was 
like thinking, there'd be a huge

602
00:34:25,500 --> 00:34:29,400
difference, the kind of came 
back and it's to your point. 

603
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,199
It's like there was there is 
actually a while ago, I don't 

604
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:37,800
know if it might have been out 
of been own eggs group that had 

605
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,800
they kind of proposed the 
Comfort filter that was like 

606
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:42,699
what the shoe that is most 
comfortable. 

607
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,699
All To Us is the most economical
but I think I'd remember, I 

608
00:34:47,699 --> 00:34:52,000
remember hearing, I think it was
Roger, crom, say in a talk he 

609
00:34:52,007 --> 00:34:56,600
gave talking about the original 
Vapor fly study that, you know, 

610
00:34:56,699 --> 00:35:00,000
there was there was a you know, 
some there is heterogeneity in 

611
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,300
the how people perceive the The 
Vapor fly relative to the zoom 

612
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:09,000
streak and Nadia's boost of like
some people really liked it. 

613
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,200
Some people are agnostic, some 
people weren't so crazy about it

614
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:14,500
but Everybody was more efficient
in it. 

615
00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:18,200
And so like the Super Shoes were
kind of the first thing to like,

616
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,200
yeah, say like your feelings 
don't matter. 

617
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,800
I think, I think to what's 
important about Comfort filter 

618
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,200
to is they had the two-pronged 
hypothesis about performance and

619
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,700
about injury. 
And so those are two different 

620
00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:36,400
ways to apply the Comfort 
filter, which I think just for 

621
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,100
listeners to because I think 
that's one of the that's a 

622
00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:43,800
distinction that's important is 
injury versus Performance. 

623
00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:47,300
I think another big 
misconception about running 

624
00:35:47,300 --> 00:35:50,700
economy and what it really means
for the runner is is the 

625
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:53,600
connection of running economy to
Performance. 

626
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,800
I think a question we get a lot 
is 0 like is it, how much faster

627
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,600
am I going to run a marathon if 
I have 1.5% economy so they're 

628
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,700
asking a performance question, 
not a running economy question. 

629
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,700
So how do you it's a this is 
going to be another non 

630
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:11,500
satisfying answer. 
But like how do you discuss that

631
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:14,700
idea of what? 
Does 1.5% running economy 

632
00:36:14,700 --> 00:36:16,900
Improvement? 
Really mean for my performance 

633
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,700
if all else is equal for my 
Marathon. 

634
00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:23,300
So how do you answer that? 
How do you that answer that 

635
00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:26,600
question? 
Yeah, and this is like this is a

636
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,900
big thing that that didn't 
really, you know, talking back 

637
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:31,800
to the things that didn't make 
it in the paper. 

638
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,800
I think this was a huge thing 
that Dustin on I talked about 

639
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:41,100
for you know, for a little bit 
but I'm still you know, I still 

640
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,700
I'm scratching my A little bit 
but also think like the way that

641
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:51,900
you know just like everybody has
variable response to these shoes

642
00:36:51,900 --> 00:36:56,700
you know some people might get a
five or six percent benefit some

643
00:36:56,700 --> 00:37:01,200
people might get a one or two 
percent benefit just like 

644
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,300
there's there's variants in 
response. 

645
00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:08,300
The thing that is not talked 
about but it is equally true is 

646
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:12,600
there is variance in how you 
translate your running economy. 

647
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:18,500
In a lab on a treadmill to 
running speed in the real world.

648
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:25,200
And you know, Chalet a kip had a
really nice paper that around 

649
00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,200
the time of you know I think it 
was and maybe 2019 came out that

650
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:33,800
did just some mathematical 
modeling around primarily around

651
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,200
here resistance as well as VO2 
kinetics of there's, you know, 

652
00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:41,100
air resistance, you know, 
obviously of like a nonlinear 

653
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,600
relationship with speeds Faster 
and faster and faster, you run, 

654
00:37:45,900 --> 00:37:48,800
theoretically speaking. 
If we had no air resistance, 

655
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:53,300
we're running in a vacuum, 
you're running an economy would 

656
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:56,800
translate almost directly to 
speed. 

657
00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:01,300
One of the things that Chalet I 
got into in the paper is slight,

658
00:38:01,300 --> 00:38:06,700
nonlinear uptick with VO2 across
speeds, but I would say it's the

659
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:09,000
the dominant Factor there is a 
resistance. 

660
00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:12,600
So again, if we had no air 
resistance and be pretty close, 

661
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:17,100
Two one, two, one of, you know, 
economy benefit to speed 

662
00:38:17,100 --> 00:38:20,300
benefit. 
And so they did a nice, nice 

663
00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:23,100
modeling exercise or they showed
if you factor, those two things 

664
00:38:23,100 --> 00:38:27,600
in running economy, as well, as 
kind of upward tick and v02 

665
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:34,900
across speeds the, the benefit 
obviously, like, gets less and 

666
00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:36,800
less. 
I have to go back and double 

667
00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,600
Chuck, but I think the 121 Mark 
was the, like might have been 

668
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,800
around like a A half hour 
marathon whereas then anything 

669
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,200
faster than that. 
You start getting less of a 

670
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:55,000
return on your speed all the way
up to a two hour marathon and 

671
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,800
we're talking more like two to 
three. 

672
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,400
You know like it's about a two 
thirds. 

673
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,100
If you have a three percent 
Improvement in economy it's 

674
00:39:02,100 --> 00:39:04,800
going to translate to a 2% 
Improvement in speed. 

675
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:10,800
Again that's at the elite level 
but and then even slower than 

676
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:12,600
that it would be actually more 
beneficial. 

677
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:20,000
Vishal, but the The tricky thing
with that though is like that's 

678
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,800
just pure theory of like 
efficiency translating to speed 

679
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:28,300
like that is that I guess to put
another way. 

680
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,700
That's the assumption that 
you're efficient. 

681
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:35,000
That's efficiency on the road 
translating to speed in the 

682
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:40,200
road, how we translate like 
efficiency in the lab to 

683
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,700
efficiency in the real world is 
and then performance in the real

684
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:45,300
world. 
This is another thing that 

685
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:51,100
there's just enormous individual
Like some people might be like I

686
00:39:51,108 --> 00:39:54,300
don't know, really bad treadmill
runners or good treadmill 

687
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:57,600
runners or like the way that 
they run on a treadmill may be 

688
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,500
very different from Outdoors, 
you know like things like that 

689
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:02,500
that may just have variability 
there. 

690
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:08,600
So like that same group you 
know, while their water hope 

691
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,600
Kamar we did the original, the 
original Vapor fly study, a few 

692
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,500
years prior to that he actually 
did a cool study where they 

693
00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:18,900
looked at. 
Changing people's economy in the

694
00:40:18,900 --> 00:40:22,900
lab with weights on the shoes. 
And then using the same weights 

695
00:40:22,900 --> 00:40:26,900
on the shoes, to change their 
race performances outside and 

696
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:35,800
you saw this same kind of think 
it was, it was pretty because 

697
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,700
they were running 3K time, 
trials and I think it was a 

698
00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:41,600
pretty similar speed. 
I have to go back and check. 

699
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,300
I think there are running 
somewhere between 9 and 10 

700
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:49,100
minutes for a 3K which Is 
getting close to that, you know,

701
00:40:49,100 --> 00:40:52,600
like I would say, maybe 215 
marathon pace or something like 

702
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,000
that. 
Like, wild nine minutes for 3K 

703
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,100
would be to 06:40, marathon 
pace. 

704
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:06,100
And then 10 minutes would be 
like more like 22 22. 

705
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:10,900
So somewhere between 2006 and 
222 pretty fast. 

706
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:14,200
Yeah, anyways, fast. 
And I think, if I were, if I 

707
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:25,000
recall correctly, They they saw 
I think it was a similar similar

708
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,800
thing where is about two-thirds 
of the like the economy change 

709
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,400
that they saw in the lab 
translated to about a two-third,

710
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,300
you know, percent change in 
performance. 

711
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:38,000
So if there was a 3% decrement 
in the economy in the lab, those

712
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:44,600
people ran two percent slower. 
But but with that, there were, 

713
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,900
you know, enormous variation. 
Round each of those like it 

714
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:51,100
wasn't it wasn't just everybody 
did that. 

715
00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:55,700
It was like you know there might
be one person that had a two 

716
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:59,000
percent change in economy in the
lab and a two percent change. 

717
00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:02,500
Like the error bars on, these 
were were big and I think that's

718
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:04,900
something that gets lost in the 
conversation. 

719
00:42:04,900 --> 00:42:09,800
A lot is like how we translate 
our efficiency in the lab to 

720
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:13,000
efficiency in. 
The wild is very is I think very

721
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:18,700
unique and individualized. 
And so Yeah, I think that like 

722
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,600
again something I was thinking 
about on the treadmill today the

723
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,700
roaming like another reason it's
very different doing that on a 

724
00:42:26,708 --> 00:42:28,700
treadmill and running a marathon
on the treadmill. 

725
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:33,300
Is like on a treadmill. 
You're responding to the to the 

726
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,100
Belt that is being driven by the
motor. 

727
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,900
It's still a substantial energy 
cost, right? 

728
00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:43,600
Like similar to outside but like
it becomes, you know, the 

729
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:47,100
feeling in like a marathon at 
the end when it feels like, 

730
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:49,900
World is just slowing down and 
it's so hard to keep yourself 

731
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:53,500
moving forward. 
It's a very it's a different 

732
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:57,200
mechanical sensation and I would
say mechanical like interaction 

733
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:02,700
with the task of just responding
to that rather than having to 

734
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:06,700
like like a break and Propel 
yourself like you like that. 

735
00:43:06,700 --> 00:43:11,200
Is it you know outside in the 
wild where like every step 

736
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:16,300
requires you to move yourself 
forward rather than responding 

737
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:18,700
responding to this? 
And of moving substrate beneath 

738
00:43:18,700 --> 00:43:21,600
you. 
So I think that that all kind of

739
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:27,100
like this all hovers around this
like very, you know, variability

740
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:29,900
in how we translate our 
efficiency in the lab, to the 

741
00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:32,400
wild that gets back to this 
study. 

742
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,200
I think that we did that, you 
know, you have people testing, 

743
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,700
like, I would say still 
beneficial but less beneficial 

744
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:46,200
at these slower speeds. 
You know, those could, those 

745
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,100
could be people that Do you know
the way that the way that they 

746
00:43:49,100 --> 00:43:52,900
translate those efficiency 
benefits in the in the lab? 

747
00:43:53,700 --> 00:43:58,400
It may not be the same outside. 
So I think that's a still a big 

748
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,200
question mark, but I think could
potentially explain that. 

749
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,400
Because I think, again, coming 
full circle. 

750
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,000
I don't think we put this in 
there, either, but like the New 

751
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,400
York Times, you guys probably 
remember like, did that really 

752
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,200
cool? 
Big data analysis on the shoes. 

753
00:44:13,500 --> 00:44:17,500
And they showed that basically 
this idea of the fast, And 

754
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:22,000
faster, you go, the more that 
that running economy benefit 

755
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,300
would translate to less and less
of a performance benefit. 

756
00:44:25,700 --> 00:44:28,700
It played out beautifully in 
their study where like the 

757
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:32,500
people running to 20 or faster. 
I think got about a 3% speed 

758
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:36,300
benefit like performance benefit
the people that were running out

759
00:44:36,300 --> 00:44:40,200
of his like between 220 and like
three or three and a half hours.

760
00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:43,400
It was like four percent and 
then the people running three 

761
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:45,100
and a half or four hours and 
slower. 

762
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:48,600
It was like 5 + %. 
I'm in performance. 

763
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,300
So I think there's still, 
there's still these other 

764
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,800
dimensions to the shoes that 
were we're unpacking. 

765
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,000
But I think one of the big ones 
is how how we translate? 

766
00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:02,400
How individuals translate their 
efficiency in the lab to the 

767
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:07,000
wild just in one dimension. 
But then over the four 

768
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:12,300
dimensions of, you know, time I 
think is kind of the other piece

769
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:16,400
to the that's interesting that 
you mentioned that I remember 

770
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:18,800
really that. 
That has gone back and forth 

771
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,300
where people have argued. 
Oh, if you're an elite Runner, 

772
00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:23,000
you're hitting the great. 
You know, that you might get 

773
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:26,000
more benefit from these shoes 
versus a slow, Runner might not,

774
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:27,900
but that sounds like, in terms 
of performance, we might 

775
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:30,700
actually be seeing the opposite 
that somebody who is potentially

776
00:45:30,700 --> 00:45:33,600
already very economic 
economical, right? 

777
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:37,400
May get less performance benefit
than someone who is not as 

778
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,500
economical. 
And my understanding that 

779
00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:42,700
interpret that in that, like at 
least having a hypothesis or not

780
00:45:42,700 --> 00:45:47,000
quite my misunderstanding this. 
Yeah, I think there are, there 

781
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,300
are People like again, maybe a 
couple things embedded within 

782
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:54,800
that. 
Yeah, because the yeah. 

783
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,500
So I don't think it. 
I don't think it's related. 

784
00:45:59,500 --> 00:46:03,100
Well, tough. 
But I don't think it's related 

785
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:08,000
outright to initial economy. 
So, so there have been, I think 

786
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:10,000
a couple of these studies so 
far. 

787
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,700
And I think ours, this one 
included where the degree of 

788
00:46:13,700 --> 00:46:16,600
benefit. 
Somebody gets is not related to 

789
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,900
their Shal economy. 
So so less economical people 

790
00:46:20,900 --> 00:46:26,300
aren't necessarily going to get 
more or less benefit, but to 

791
00:46:26,300 --> 00:46:29,300
your second piece of like Elite 
Runners running faster and 

792
00:46:29,300 --> 00:46:32,600
having greater forces. 
So that's actually another piece

793
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,900
of this paper that I think we 
included in the in the 

794
00:46:35,900 --> 00:46:39,700
discussion that this is where, 
you know, Dustin really Dustin 

795
00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:43,800
said, this study up planted 
executed it and he brought me in

796
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,100
to help basically make sense of 
it. 

797
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:50,500
Anna clay because it was like 
had their results and you know, 

798
00:46:50,500 --> 00:46:55,600
it's kind of scratching his head
a little bit and one of the 

799
00:46:55,600 --> 00:47:00,800
thoughts on the change was, you 
know, when I first looked at the

800
00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:07,000
would say the demographics of 
the the runners and their their 

801
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,100
mechanics. 
So like their stride frequencies

802
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:12,700
I was looking at the speeds they
were running at like 10 and 12 

803
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:16,400
kilometers an hour right? 
So like ten eight and ten minute

804
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,800
mile pace and they're Cadence's 
were like really high or like 

805
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,300
higher than I would expect for 
that speed. 

806
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:30,300
So they were they were like low 
170s and high 170s at each of 

807
00:47:30,308 --> 00:47:36,300
those speeds and for otherwise 
like given the the body 

808
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:40,800
dimensions of the subjects like 
they were I have to go back and 

809
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:46,600
look, I think like maybe like 59
510 on average and so I was 

810
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,900
looking at it. 
Tonight, man, those are like, I 

811
00:47:49,900 --> 00:47:52,700
would expect them to run with 
lower, you know, maybe in the 

812
00:47:52,708 --> 00:47:57,700
160s, at those, at those Paces. 
But so what that told me was 

813
00:47:57,700 --> 00:48:01,900
that they were probably not 
putting they were probably 

814
00:48:02,100 --> 00:48:05,700
probably did not have very high 
peak vertical forces, right? 

815
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:08,300
So, like, you run with a higher 
Cadence and you have lower 

816
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:11,500
overall force. 
And so then I got thinking I did

817
00:48:11,500 --> 00:48:13,500
did some. 
And then again, this is just, 

818
00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:16,700
these were kind of like 
calculations that we slid into 

819
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:19,900
the End of the discussion. 
But I did some calculations just

820
00:48:19,900 --> 00:48:23,600
based on the very simple physics
of being on the ground and off 

821
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,000
the ground. 
And we had from the Garmin the 

822
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,200
heart rate straps that there 
were wearing, we had ground 

823
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,000
contact time, as well as the 
other pieces which is I would 

824
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,200
say from that device, it's a 
noisy measurement. 

825
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:38,400
But I think for the sake of 
doing just kind of got check 

826
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,200
calculations, it's good. 
So, using their ground contact 

827
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,600
time, with their step time, 
which you can get from the set 

828
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,100
frequency, the given speed, and 
their, knowing their 

829
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:48,500
anthropometric. 
So Height and their weight. 

830
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:51,600
I can make like, very, I would 
say a simple estimations that 

831
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:55,600
are pretty pretty close to. 
Like, within a few percentage 

832
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,700
points of like, you know, a gold
standard for sensing treadmill 

833
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,300
of their Peak forces. 
So we estimated those forces and

834
00:49:02,300 --> 00:49:07,100
yeah, they were like, their body
weights were like, like, 2.1 and

835
00:49:07,100 --> 00:49:11,900
2.3 times body weight of their 
Peak forces, which I would say 

836
00:49:11,900 --> 00:49:15,900
it's like, maybe at those 
speeds, you know, again, this is

837
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:18,400
where everybody's different. 
Everybody has different Force 

838
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,800
patterns, but if you were 
looking at like a population, 

839
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,000
average other, you know, their 
papers that have looked at 

840
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,800
forces, you might be expecting 
to see, like, 2.4 2.6. 

841
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:31,000
So, so that was like, well, this
might have just been a subset 

842
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:34,700
like a unique kind of subset of 
Runners that had, like, just low

843
00:49:34,700 --> 00:49:38,600
Forces in general. 
And so that been kind of led 

844
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:41,700
into this other high, this 
further hypothesis that like, 

845
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:48,200
The forces that we put into this
shoes, like these are, the shoes

846
00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:51,900
are just giant Springs, right? 
Like they're these, these big 

847
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:55,300
thick pieces of foam that you 
can press. 

848
00:49:55,300 --> 00:49:59,500
But what's interesting is like 
all fun, all shoe Foams. 

849
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:03,000
I mean, all Springs have this 
but they have, you know, 

850
00:50:03,008 --> 00:50:06,200
essentially like forget the 
technical term for. 

851
00:50:06,208 --> 00:50:10,000
I don't think it's compression 
set but it's essentially the 

852
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,200
point at which it stops behaving
like a Spring. 

853
00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:19,700
And the colloquial term for that
is bottoming out where are you 

854
00:50:19,700 --> 00:50:23,500
know, anybody who's running the 
thin Eva racing flat nose, this 

855
00:50:23,500 --> 00:50:27,700
feeling where you land and it 
feels like the shoe is like you 

856
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:30,200
know it's no longer compressing 
and cushioning and now feels 

857
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,900
like cardboard. 
So that's when the shoe becomes 

858
00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:37,100
essentially, maximally 
compressed forgot thinking of 

859
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:40,000
like, well perhaps one of the 
things going on here is like 

860
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,500
when you start running at faster
and faster speeds. 

861
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,900
And you have greater and greater
ground reaction forces. 

862
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:48,100
Maybe there's a point at, which 
you kind of saturate the shoe 

863
00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:50,200
and really use all of that 
spring. 

864
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:56,500
So in Waterhog comers litter, 
original paper where they tested

865
00:50:56,500 --> 00:51:00,100
him at 14, 16 and 18 kilometers 
an hour, they're really soft 

866
00:51:00,100 --> 00:51:04,400
Flatline response. 
And the thought was like well 

867
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:09,000
maybe that that like that speed 
is kind of a that threshold that

868
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:13,600
you start to really kind of 
fully saturate the The shoe and 

869
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,900
its potential. 
And then below that, you're not 

870
00:51:16,900 --> 00:51:19,900
running with enough forces to 
really fully compress it. 

871
00:51:19,900 --> 00:51:22,700
And then you further extend that
into the runners in this 

872
00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:25,800
population or in this study that
we're running with, I would say 

873
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,100
uniquely low forces and these 
really high stuff frequencies 

874
00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:33,200
that they may have just really 
not been essentially using all 

875
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:36,300
of the shoe. 
And so, right, I think that kind

876
00:51:36,300 --> 00:51:39,700
of extends into it. 
Now that being said, if there's 

877
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:42,000
so that's just the out right. 
You know, economy. 

878
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:45,000
Change your benefit or whatever 
in the lab. 

879
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,400
Again that doesn't get into and 
we didn't do much 

880
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,200
prognostication in the paper in 
this. 

881
00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,200
But any, you know, that still 
means that you're probably 

882
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,800
having some degree of like 
cushioning benefit from from the

883
00:51:57,900 --> 00:52:03,300
really, really soft compliant 
foam, as well as anything 

884
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:08,900
perhaps that the energy return 
over the long time. 

885
00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:11,500
Long, long term might give. 
But, yeah, I think that, that 

886
00:52:11,500 --> 00:52:14,900
piece It was one of the, you 
know, one of the, one of the 

887
00:52:14,900 --> 00:52:18,200
pieces in the discussion that we
thought might explain that. 

888
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,100
Is that kind of, I would say, 
force, force threshold that you 

889
00:52:21,108 --> 00:52:23,800
might have of running running 
faster in these shoes. 

890
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,900
So there's it's hard to sum up 
everything that we just talked 

891
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:30,000
about, but I'm going to try to 
give a couple things. 

892
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:34,400
I think one there's a couple 
things that are still unclear. 

893
00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:38,200
When it comes to the actual 
translation of running economy 

894
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,900
to Performance, we just don't 
know what that's going to look 

895
00:52:41,900 --> 00:52:44,300
like for each. 
Person for a myriad of reasons. 

896
00:52:44,700 --> 00:52:48,100
We also don't fully understand 
the effect of fatigue on our 

897
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:51,300
response to these shoes. 
You had the pilot study today, 

898
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,700
but I think those two factors 
are really interesting. 

899
00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:55,600
And another thing that popped 
into my head, when you were 

900
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:59,700
talking about the translation of
running economy to Performance, 

901
00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:03,000
was you talking about how the 
psychological side of things 

902
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,800
when you put on the conveyor? 
Are you most dreaded putting it 

903
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,200
on after you are running the 
alpha fly later just thinking 

904
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,800
about what that would be like as
a runner, get it at Mile 22 and 

905
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,000
thinking about I got to get 
another four miles. 

906
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:18,000
If your shoes is part of this 
terrible experience, that could 

907
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,100
go down a very south path, at 
least for a week mental person 

908
00:53:22,100 --> 00:53:25,400
like me. 
So I think that that could be 

909
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,800
another Factor tear all week. 
Mental people at the end of 

910
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:36,200
marathons and Graces. 
I just, I got I finished my, the

911
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:40,000
last one I ran I finished and 10
minutes later, I just started 

912
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,200
crying in my wife was like, why 
are You, okay? 

913
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:45,600
I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. 
Just like, are you happy? 

914
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:46,600
No. 
Are you sad? 

915
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:51,600
No, I don't know. 
I'm just the reference. 

916
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,100
So Robin Williams. 
Who's like? 

917
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:55,400
If you've ever seen a marathon, 
the end of the runway like I'm 

918
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:59,400
alive. 
Yes. 

919
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,100
If it breaks, it breaks you 
down. 

920
00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:08,300
Does psychologically, 
physically, it's everything you 

921
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:11,900
referenced kind of briefly. 
And this was probably 30, 40 

922
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:14,100
minutes. 
Ago, you reference to things 

923
00:54:14,100 --> 00:54:16,100
one. 
You talked about resilience if 

924
00:54:16,100 --> 00:54:18,100
you want to hear more about 
resilience we got to talk to 

925
00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:20,900
Jeff before we have like a 
two-part episode where he goes 

926
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:24,500
into Material Science, about 
Foams talks in depth about 

927
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:26,900
terms, like compliance and 
resilience, so go back and 

928
00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:28,600
listen to that. 
If you haven't already. 

929
00:54:29,100 --> 00:54:32,200
The second thing that you 
brought up was the idea of 

930
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:37,400
muscle breakdown in, in a flat 
versus a more cushion shoe or 

931
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,300
something with more, even EVA 
foam or something with that. 

932
00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:43,500
Can you help us? 
Understand how How cushioning in

933
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:48,100
a shoe helps decrease muscle 
breakdown and fatigue during a 

934
00:54:48,100 --> 00:54:50,600
run, we know. 
Forces can't. 

935
00:54:51,500 --> 00:54:54,000
Forces don't just disappear. 
They go somewhere. 

936
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,000
So how do shoes play a role in 
decreasing muscle breakdown? 

937
00:54:58,000 --> 00:54:59,600
I guess that's kind of my next 
question. 

938
00:55:00,300 --> 00:55:04,900
Yeah, topic. 
The the midsole property 

939
00:55:04,900 --> 00:55:08,300
episodes are some of our most 
popular episodes ever. 

940
00:55:08,300 --> 00:55:15,200
By the way, our cool before the 
end you can Peg me on. 

941
00:55:15,300 --> 00:55:18,600
Like I said, I finished wrapping
up some of the data analysis on 

942
00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:21,800
the actual midsole properties. 
If some of these shoes and give 

943
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:24,100
you a yes, papers, not out 
papers, not written, but I can 

944
00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:27,900
give you a teaser on some of 
those do a teaser and then do a 

945
00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:29,400
full episode on. 
Exactly fun. 

946
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:35,200
Yeah, stay tuned. 
Yeah, but yeah. 

947
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:41,800
So so the muscle the muscle 
breakdown piece is it's related 

948
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:43,700
to. 
Yeah, it's simply how our bodies

949
00:55:43,700 --> 00:55:47,100
function when we run is we 
function as giant Springs, 

950
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:50,600
right? 
So we're running along and we 

951
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:54,700
Are you know, all of our muscles
and our limbs really our whole 

952
00:55:54,700 --> 00:55:56,300
body. 
It's like running the whole body

953
00:55:56,300 --> 00:55:59,700
exercise, right? 
You are tensioning your whole 

954
00:55:59,700 --> 00:56:03,300
system and to again behave, is 
this giant pogo stick that 

955
00:56:03,300 --> 00:56:06,800
bounces along? 
And so with that spontaneously, 

956
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,900
when you land on the ground, you
have muscles that are 

957
00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:13,900
functioning concentrically so 
like your hamstrings, you know, 

958
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:15,600
but actually when you land on 
the ground, they're going to be 

959
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:19,300
pushing, be centrally. 
But like really, you have this 

960
00:56:19,300 --> 00:56:22,500
like dance between Eccentric 
muscle action which you know, 

961
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,100
for your listeners. 
Concentric muscle action, is the

962
00:56:25,100 --> 00:56:27,800
muscle shortening. 
So, it's like, doing an arm 

963
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,100
curl, your bicep is acting 
concentric Ali. 

964
00:56:30,100 --> 00:56:33,900
You have isometric, which is the
muscle is basically against 

965
00:56:33,900 --> 00:56:37,300
against resistance, maintaining 
it, same length and then you 

966
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:44,200
have e Centric where the muscle 
is essentially extending in 

967
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,300
length under a load that it is 
trying to resist. 

968
00:56:47,300 --> 00:56:51,400
So, if you're doing that same 
bicep, arm curl and And you're 

969
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,300
the weight was too much and you 
are giving it everything you 

970
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:56,500
had, but your arm was just 
opening up more and more and 

971
00:56:56,500 --> 00:57:01,100
more, your bicep is eccentric. 
So, when we run all three thing,

972
00:57:01,100 --> 00:57:04,100
all three of those muscle 
actions are going on all over 

973
00:57:04,100 --> 00:57:08,100
our body in different forms and 
different like muscles. 

974
00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:12,000
Like simultaneous, it's this 
beautiful orchestration that 

975
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:16,700
just is constantly happening 
dynamically But that part of 

976
00:57:16,700 --> 00:57:20,000
that I would say that breaking 
action when we run, that's 

977
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,500
dominantly eccentric action. 
Some of its isometric where 

978
00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:27,600
we're trying to transfer for us 
while we maintain muscle length.

979
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:33,300
But like, but yeah, so that that
eccentric activity that is, you 

980
00:57:33,300 --> 00:57:35,900
know, that is essentially 
cushioning by decelerating the 

981
00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:41,800
body is like our spring 
compresses and that that is that

982
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:45,300
can be very damaging. 
Like if you look at You know, 

983
00:57:45,500 --> 00:57:48,400
Ascent like what we would, I 
would say the dominant form of 

984
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,400
like eccentric, loading that you
might think in Ronnie is, like, 

985
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,600
running downhill. 
If you run downhill for a long 

986
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,500
time, I think one of the 
interesting things is like 

987
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,700
everybody, so I know that's like
very viscerally like through 

988
00:58:00,700 --> 00:58:03,500
comrades. 
So anybody's famous anybody 

989
00:58:03,500 --> 00:58:05,800
knows about comrades. 
Is you have like both the up 

990
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,300
around in the downrod it's an 
ultra marathon in South Africa 

991
00:58:08,300 --> 00:58:10,900
and the down run. 
You literally are running like a

992
00:58:10,908 --> 00:58:13,900
marathon downhill. 
The second half of it and it's 

993
00:58:13,900 --> 00:58:16,700
brutal. 
It just destroys your legs. 

994
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,200
But the thing that's fascinating
about it is, like, every person 

995
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:23,900
has a different muscle group 
that they like, complain about 

996
00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:26,200
that. 
Like, oh my gosh, those down 

997
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:28,000
Hills. 
Destroy your quads, and the 

998
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,800
person be like, oh my gosh, 
those downhills. 

999
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,000
Destroy your calves, those down 
Hills, just wreck my hamstrings.

1000
00:58:34,300 --> 00:58:36,100
So, I think it's like, 
fascinating that we all kind of 

1001
00:58:36,100 --> 00:58:40,300
have different like pinch points
in that, you know, kinetic chain

1002
00:58:40,300 --> 00:58:43,300
of what what is getting rekt by 
this eccentric action. 

1003
00:58:43,700 --> 00:58:46,200
But so that's downhill But the 
same thing happens when we run 

1004
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,600
on flat ground where we're, you 
know, breaking yourself and that

1005
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:55,400
that part of that is just again 
decelerating our Center of mass 

1006
00:58:56,000 --> 00:58:59,000
but also, you know, protecting 
all of our all of our 

1007
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,600
structures. 
And so that, again, carries it 

1008
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:05,800
cost, and, you know, Roger crom 
and Canada's Paradigm that they 

1009
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:09,700
call it the cost of cushioning 
that is essentially the cost to 

1010
00:59:09,700 --> 00:59:13,900
maintain this muscle tension and
decelerate, the center of mass 

1011
00:59:14,100 --> 00:59:18,900
safely So as to not you know, 
whether it's negatively affect 

1012
00:59:18,900 --> 00:59:22,500
any structures or rip anything 
or you know, break are you know 

1013
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:26,800
protect our bones and other 
structures so shoes. 

1014
00:59:26,800 --> 00:59:31,000
That's why shoes like outright 
are generally beneficial, like 

1015
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,900
more beneficial than being 
Barefoot. 

1016
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:41,400
So even though that there's a 
cost to carrying the the shoe on

1017
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:46,400
you, most people are have 
Greater benefit from just having

1018
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,900
like a very light xuan to 
cushion their body. 

1019
00:59:51,300 --> 00:59:52,800
So, yeah. 
So anyways, so that's that's 

1020
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:56,300
kind of the function of shoes 
and that's the crazy thing about

1021
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,000
the new generation of Super 
Shoes. 

1022
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:03,000
Is there just so much softer. 
So like they can do so much more

1023
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:05,600
cushioning. 
But then this gets into the like

1024
01:00:07,300 --> 01:00:10,300
you know this is the kind of 
like the magic, the triumvirate 

1025
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:14,700
of the shoes is like they're 
softer so they can do more of 

1026
01:00:14,700 --> 01:00:15,500
that. 
Cushioning. 

1027
01:00:15,500 --> 01:00:20,500
So we're essentially say we're 
Outsourcing that breaking from 

1028
01:00:20,500 --> 01:00:26,300
our you know, our muscles and 
our tendons to this non 

1029
01:00:26,300 --> 01:00:30,900
biological material on our foot 
that does not get tired. 

1030
01:00:30,900 --> 01:00:35,400
So you know like our Achilles 
tendon is this great spring that

1031
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:39,900
functions elastically but it 
requires energy, I ER gastro or 

1032
01:00:39,900 --> 01:00:43,300
gastrocnemius and the Soleus 
maintaining tension. 

1033
01:00:43,300 --> 01:00:48,300
So there's a cost to that. 
Bring pebax foam like as a great

1034
01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:52,600
spring to and it requires zero 
ATP function. 

1035
01:00:52,700 --> 01:00:57,300
Yeah right. 
But so anyways so like these 

1036
01:00:57,300 --> 01:01:00,500
shoes they're super soft so 
there there's so much softer 

1037
01:01:00,500 --> 01:01:06,200
than even any other EV a shoe 
but critically and this is like 

1038
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,500
the magic is that they you know 
they're resilient so they 

1039
01:01:09,500 --> 01:01:12,100
returned that I think this is 
this might be maybe review from 

1040
01:01:12,100 --> 01:01:17,100
the last episode but that that 
idea Be able to both break and 

1041
01:01:17,100 --> 01:01:21,400
decelerate your body that 
otherwise you know, costs us 

1042
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,700
energy and also has. 
And this is maybe what you might

1043
01:01:24,700 --> 01:01:26,100
have. 
Eluded like been alluding to in 

1044
01:01:26,100 --> 01:01:29,800
the original question, but like 
there is the term that I would 

1045
01:01:29,800 --> 01:01:32,500
use is like collateral damage to
that. 

1046
01:01:32,500 --> 01:01:35,500
Yeah. 
It's like yeah, the the muscle 

1047
01:01:35,500 --> 01:01:37,800
fibers. 
When we when we do, when we, 

1048
01:01:37,900 --> 01:01:42,400
when they function e 
centrically, they they rip and 

1049
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:46,100
like on, you know, on a on a 
small Scale like just going out 

1050
01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:49,600
for, you know, that's why it's I
mean, it's the dominant reason 

1051
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:52,400
why if you haven't run in a long
time and you go out and run, 

1052
01:01:52,400 --> 01:01:55,800
you're really sore two days 
later, delayed onset muscle 

1053
01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:58,300
soreness. 
It's primarily from that 

1054
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:00,800
eccentric braking action of the 
muscles. 

1055
01:02:01,700 --> 01:02:05,200
If you look at a muscle biopsy 
after somebody has like severely

1056
01:02:05,600 --> 01:02:08,600
eccentric, Lee damaged, their 
legs, like, you know, lots of 

1057
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:12,100
downhill running or even lots of
running you normally, I would 

1058
01:02:12,100 --> 01:02:14,700
say like the two things you can 
think of is like uncooked. 

1059
01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:18,900
Pasta is the like healthy muscle
and spaghetti is The Eccentric 

1060
01:02:18,900 --> 01:02:23,600
damaged muscle or you have like 
a nice parallel striations 

1061
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:27,600
versus these. 
Just like bloody red like super 

1062
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:29,900
like Tangled mess. 
And that's what that's what like

1063
01:02:29,900 --> 01:02:33,300
a histological slide of a 
healthy mess like these 

1064
01:02:33,300 --> 01:02:36,600
intricately damage and also 
looks like a normal damage to a 

1065
01:02:36,608 --> 01:02:39,000
muscle with exercise and Yaks 
like that. 

1066
01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:42,300
And that's why recovery is 
important to that kind of, yeah,

1067
01:02:42,300 --> 01:02:45,200
for our listeners, by the way, 
to get this, you have To go have

1068
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,300
people, like, I think it was Cal
State Fullerton, that did this 

1069
01:02:48,300 --> 01:02:51,200
many, many years ago where they 
had people run on a treadmill 

1070
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,900
downhill for 30 minutes and they
took muscle biopsies at the 

1071
01:02:54,908 --> 01:02:57,400
beginning and to end. 
So after you've been running 

1072
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:01,300
downhill and crushed, your legs 
to add insult to energy that to 

1073
01:03:01,700 --> 01:03:03,900
insult to injury, they're going 
to do a punch biopsy in your 

1074
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:07,500
muscle, which to get that tissue
sample, they have to get like 

1075
01:03:07,500 --> 01:03:10,500
extract it from you, which is 
not a painless process. 

1076
01:03:10,500 --> 01:03:14,600
So it's like side up for this or
they probably didn't read the 

1077
01:03:15,100 --> 01:03:20,700
The I should know this consent 
the consent form like I don't 

1078
01:03:20,700 --> 01:03:24,200
either I think the other the 
other part that you just talked 

1079
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,700
about the East Hendrix is 
there's a, there's another study

1080
01:03:26,700 --> 01:03:30,100
that talks about the stiffening 
of a limb when you're on a 

1081
01:03:30,108 --> 01:03:32,900
cushion surface. 
So, even when you have that 

1082
01:03:32,900 --> 01:03:36,000
cushion underneath you, your 
body reflexively stiffens 

1083
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:39,000
partially maybe for stability, 
sake, but also it's helping you 

1084
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,500
with that deceleration and so 
you're doing less excursions. 

1085
01:03:42,500 --> 01:03:44,700
Your joint is going through less
motion, Which is less. 

1086
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,800
Eccentric contraction, which may
contribute to less muscle 

1087
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,400
breakdown as well. 
This last part that I wanted to 

1088
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:56,500
transition to is trying to get 
practical to some extent and 

1089
01:03:56,500 --> 01:03:59,900
kind of speaking to the people 
who are in this category that 

1090
01:03:59,900 --> 01:04:02,200
this study addressed. 
So like these people who are 

1091
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,500
running marathons and that eight
to nine, thirty minute per mile 

1092
01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:10,000
and how can we say really quick?
Yeah, I want to add this because

1093
01:04:10,000 --> 01:04:13,400
the point that you just made, 
like almost in passing, I think 

1094
01:04:13,400 --> 01:04:18,000
is actually A really important 
piece of super shoes. 

1095
01:04:18,000 --> 01:04:21,300
That is, I would say overlooked,
I don't say overlooked maybe, 

1096
01:04:21,300 --> 01:04:25,500
but like that idea of our bodies
when we run on softer surfaces, 

1097
01:04:25,500 --> 01:04:28,800
actually stiffen up, even though
it feels like we are on 

1098
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,700
something softer. 
So to that point of taking the 

1099
01:04:31,700 --> 01:04:34,200
joints through like less 
Excursion. 

1100
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,900
The same thing happens when we I
think it's one of the reasons 

1101
01:04:37,900 --> 01:04:43,400
why there's like, you know, 
softer surfaces, might be 

1102
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,500
pretty, quote, unquote, 
Detective. 

1103
01:04:45,500 --> 01:04:49,000
It's not I don't think it's 
because of bunting forces or 

1104
01:04:49,000 --> 01:04:51,500
anything like that. 
People think of because you 

1105
01:04:51,500 --> 01:04:55,300
don't to run forward, you need 
to generate and sustain the same

1106
01:04:55,300 --> 01:04:57,600
ground reaction forces. 
Like it's just physics. 

1107
01:04:58,000 --> 01:05:02,300
But the that idea of 
essentially, like, stiffening 

1108
01:05:02,300 --> 01:05:04,800
your body and taking your joints
through smaller ranges of 

1109
01:05:04,800 --> 01:05:09,300
motion, or that idea of like, 
maintaining a stiffer system, 

1110
01:05:09,300 --> 01:05:14,200
that might be more energetically
efficient, I think we can think 

1111
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:17,400
of the shoe. 
Is that, you know, if a person 

1112
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:22,300
has the same Global body 
stiffness running in the these 

1113
01:05:22,300 --> 01:05:26,700
shoes yet, the foam is much 
softer than the other shoe that 

1114
01:05:26,700 --> 01:05:28,700
they have the same Global body 
stiffness. 

1115
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:33,100
It would stand that thinking of 
a series in Spring their body 

1116
01:05:33,100 --> 01:05:36,000
has to be stiffening up to 
counteract that. 

1117
01:05:36,300 --> 01:05:38,800
So I think that that's another 
thing going on with with the 

1118
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,800
shoes. 
That's kind of less and again 

1119
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:47,600
it's hard to study because Those
like the way people, manipulate 

1120
01:05:47,600 --> 01:05:49,800
their body stiffness is going to
be different. 

1121
01:05:49,800 --> 01:05:54,600
So when you do, if you do, you 
know, again like Waters Group 

1122
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:58,900
had, they did that a 
biomechanics study on on the 

1123
01:05:58,900 --> 01:06:03,000
shoes and the paper and I think,
Ian Hunter group at BYU also. 

1124
01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,800
Did you know, biomechanics 
study, and it was really tough 

1125
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:08,600
to pin down any joint kinematics
linked to this. 

1126
01:06:08,700 --> 01:06:13,000
But again, if everybody's kind 
of manipulating their body and 

1127
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:16,400
adjusting that kind of global If
nest in different ways, it may 

1128
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:21,000
be really tricky to pinpoint one
you know, one thing going on at 

1129
01:06:21,008 --> 01:06:24,300
the knee or the hit because some
people might be modulating their

1130
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:26,300
stiffness of the hip, some 
people might be modulated 

1131
01:06:26,300 --> 01:06:28,400
stiffness at the knee. 
Some people might be in the 

1132
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:31,100
ankle. 
So that's I think another, 

1133
01:06:31,100 --> 01:06:34,800
another thing going on is like 
what what's going on within the 

1134
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:39,500
system of the runner plus shoe? 
Yeah but he gets through that 

1135
01:06:39,500 --> 01:06:42,600
goes into the fact that these 
shoot these are tools right at 

1136
01:06:42,608 --> 01:06:45,900
the end of the day you need to 
do these Runners know No or have

1137
01:06:45,900 --> 01:06:49,100
the capabilities or experience 
to utilize them appropriately, 

1138
01:06:49,300 --> 01:06:53,300
whether it goes back to can, 
they actually utilize all the 

1139
01:06:53,300 --> 01:06:56,300
the foam to its maximum capacity
to get the biggest benefit out 

1140
01:06:56,300 --> 01:06:58,500
of it. 
Or they'll, the question is, how

1141
01:06:58,500 --> 01:07:00,800
are they? 
Can they and how are they 

1142
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:04,300
modulating their own by 
mechanics there, on movement 

1143
01:07:04,300 --> 01:07:08,700
patterns to use that right? 
Are they getting a benefit from?

1144
01:07:08,700 --> 01:07:10,500
Using that movement? 
I would call it a movement 

1145
01:07:10,500 --> 01:07:12,300
strategy, right? 
Whether it's you like you said 

1146
01:07:12,300 --> 01:07:14,600
modulation at the ankle knee 
hip. 

1147
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:19,600
Or some combination of them. 
We don't really know. 

1148
01:07:19,700 --> 01:07:22,800
That's a great question of that,
but I'm not sure. 

1149
01:07:23,400 --> 01:07:25,500
Perhaps, you know what, how we 
would measure the, somebody's 

1150
01:07:25,500 --> 01:07:27,900
ability to utilize, like what's 
movement strategy, they're 

1151
01:07:27,900 --> 01:07:29,100
doing? 
Because that's, that's going to 

1152
01:07:29,100 --> 01:07:32,500
get into such individual things 
because people are so unique, 

1153
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:35,200
right? 
It's but, can they can that 

1154
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,500
unique movement strategy? 
Utilize this tool? 

1155
01:07:38,500 --> 01:07:41,100
I think is the interesting 
question. 

1156
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,400
Yeah, your job Jeff. 
Do you get to do this with? 

1157
01:07:44,700 --> 01:07:46,700
Visuals, right? 
That's the one part and that's a

1158
01:07:46,708 --> 01:07:51,200
part of Pt 2, but like you get 
to do this with individuals and 

1159
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,700
try to figure out their thing. 
Yeah, and it's funny because I 

1160
01:07:55,700 --> 01:08:00,200
would say even through that, I 
feel like I have again in the 

1161
01:08:00,200 --> 01:08:03,600
last year getting to do this 
with so many different athletes 

1162
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:08,300
of very high levels. 
I feel like I have even more 

1163
01:08:08,300 --> 01:08:11,800
questions than like when I 
started because it's like you 

1164
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,600
see one pattern in one person. 
That's like oh my gosh. 

1165
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:18,000
This must be the key. 
This must be the like mechanical

1166
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,600
explanation and then it just 
doesn't hold and somebody else. 

1167
01:08:21,600 --> 01:08:28,200
So, like a good example is, I 
just had an athlete in that we 

1168
01:08:28,200 --> 01:08:33,500
were testing range of range of 
shoes and what was really 

1169
01:08:33,500 --> 01:08:36,500
interesting is, he had very 
distinct mechanics in the sense 

1170
01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:40,100
that he would say, spent a lot 
of time on the ground relative 

1171
01:08:40,100 --> 01:08:41,600
to the air. 
So he had what's called a high 

1172
01:08:41,600 --> 01:08:47,000
Duty factor, and this is kind of
the The the you know, the 

1173
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:52,000
perfect recipe for. 
But I would say I thought at 

1174
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:57,300
first pass the like you know, 
when a six came out with the 

1175
01:08:57,300 --> 01:09:00,399
meta speed sky and the edge, 
they said these kind of like two

1176
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:05,100
different types of Runners that 
it's like best for and I've 

1177
01:09:05,100 --> 01:09:07,200
tested other runners in both of 
those shoes. 

1178
01:09:07,200 --> 01:09:12,300
And generally speaking they test
like almost bang on similar and 

1179
01:09:12,300 --> 01:09:14,600
it would be interesting to hear 
Dustin's take on this. 

1180
01:09:14,800 --> 01:09:16,700
I think he's played around with 
them as well. 

1181
01:09:16,700 --> 01:09:19,399
But so anyway, it's I'd kind of 
like written. 

1182
01:09:19,399 --> 01:09:22,200
I don't want to be written that 
off, but it's like the shoe is 

1183
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,000
the same foam and like, both of 
them, have a curved play. 

1184
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:29,000
And I think the only difference 
is The Edge has like, the plate 

1185
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:32,300
curves downward through the shoe
rather than having kind of 

1186
01:09:32,300 --> 01:09:34,800
flatten the eel in the sky, 
like, similar with the vapor 

1187
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,700
flyer Alpha pliers. 
So anyways, there's there's also

1188
01:09:37,700 --> 01:09:42,000
a small drop differences and the
angle of the of the forefoot 

1189
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:44,600
rocker slightly different. 
But okay, I mean, the guy 

1190
01:09:44,700 --> 01:09:46,700
Opponents are, this are very, 
very similar. 

1191
01:09:46,700 --> 01:09:49,399
Yeah. 
But I think those subtle things 

1192
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:51,600
crazy thing. 
Again, I've had athletes that 

1193
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:54,500
have tested just very similarly 
in both of them. 

1194
01:09:55,700 --> 01:09:57,600
But then I had an athlete come 
in that again. 

1195
01:09:57,600 --> 01:10:01,700
Was this kind of like very, you 
know, I would say like high Duty

1196
01:10:01,700 --> 01:10:03,900
Factor on our like a lot long 
ground contact. 

1197
01:10:03,900 --> 01:10:07,600
Not Material time. 
And he, like really responded to

1198
01:10:07,600 --> 01:10:14,900
the edge like distinct from any 
of the other shoes and the Made 

1199
01:10:14,900 --> 01:10:19,500
in things like his mechanics and
I was measuring using inertial, 

1200
01:10:19,500 --> 01:10:22,700
measurement units, to kind of 
get estimates of how his body is

1201
01:10:22,700 --> 01:10:27,100
functioning as a spring. 
The alpha fly was the shoe that 

1202
01:10:27,100 --> 01:10:29,200
he was kind of least beneficial 
in. 

1203
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:37,900
And was his mechanics were very 
deviant from, like the control 

1204
01:10:37,900 --> 01:10:40,400
condition in the alpha fly is 
like it was putting them in a 

1205
01:10:40,408 --> 01:10:43,700
very different strategy whereas 
like the edge was very, very 

1206
01:10:43,700 --> 01:10:47,500
similar. 
To his kind of like, native 

1207
01:10:47,500 --> 01:10:51,900
mechanics, which to me, that was
like, oh my gosh, like, that's 

1208
01:10:51,900 --> 01:10:54,000
so cool, like, it's essentially 
like mapping on. 

1209
01:10:54,500 --> 01:10:58,800
But I'll say, I've also had 
other athletes that, like, the 

1210
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:02,000
most beneficial shoe that 
they're in, they have like, very

1211
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:09,400
distinct, mechanical patterns 
predictive thing yet, so it is 

1212
01:11:09,400 --> 01:11:11,600
and you had me there, you had 
you hadn't finished. 

1213
01:11:11,600 --> 01:11:14,200
I was like, oh, is it that you 
match the shoe that best 

1214
01:11:14,200 --> 01:11:15,700
supports? 
Like matches your mechanics 

1215
01:11:15,700 --> 01:11:17,700
know. 
There's, it's not that simple. 

1216
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,900
Yeah, but it could but like 
again, it could be that some 

1217
01:11:20,900 --> 01:11:24,200
people have just very distinct 
mechanical patterns that are 

1218
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:26,800
persistent maybe. 
And maybe there are other people

1219
01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:29,600
that have very like plastic 
mechanics that, you know, I 

1220
01:11:29,608 --> 01:11:35,100
don't know, but it gets it gets 
back to like I always Yeah, I 

1221
01:11:35,100 --> 01:11:39,300
would say our gate you know how 
we're on our biomechanics are 

1222
01:11:39,300 --> 01:11:41,300
very much like a fingerprint, 
but right. 

1223
01:11:41,300 --> 01:11:46,700
Like it's like every person is 
just different and it's like I 

1224
01:11:46,700 --> 01:11:50,500
think it's like I mean I mean a 
nice thing about Super Shoes is 

1225
01:11:50,500 --> 01:11:55,100
that we at least know that like 
if you get in if you get in the 

1226
01:11:55,100 --> 01:11:59,400
Nike Alpha fly, or the vapor fly
or the like a six-minute speed 

1227
01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,000
sky, like those are kind of the,
I would say, the vapor fly in 

1228
01:12:02,008 --> 01:12:05,700
the meadow speed sky, like 
They're very similar shoes and I

1229
01:12:05,708 --> 01:12:09,400
would say by and large like 
that's going to that's going to 

1230
01:12:09,408 --> 01:12:12,300
get you most of the way there. 
But there are other people that,

1231
01:12:12,300 --> 01:12:16,500
like, you might have fringy, I 
would say benefits or like 

1232
01:12:16,500 --> 01:12:19,700
slightly less response to some 
of the other ones that have more

1233
01:12:19,700 --> 01:12:23,900
distinctive features. 
But, yeah, I've so many 

1234
01:12:23,900 --> 01:12:28,200
questions I, I'm going to I'm 
gonna, I was gonna transition to

1235
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,200
the Practical. 
Obvious said, kind of probably 

1236
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:32,900
that question, but I would do 
want to ask you in your testing 

1237
01:12:32,900 --> 01:12:36,200
over the last year with For 
athletes the studies that come 

1238
01:12:36,200 --> 01:12:39,000
out obviously, take time to get 
published and by the time 

1239
01:12:39,000 --> 01:12:42,200
they're out a lot of times the 
next model is available which 

1240
01:12:42,200 --> 01:12:43,900
could have big changes for 
example. 

1241
01:12:43,900 --> 01:12:46,500
Like endorphin Pro 3, very 
different than from the 

1242
01:12:46,500 --> 01:12:49,500
Endorphin Pro to then you also 
have like endorphin to leads. 

1243
01:12:49,700 --> 01:12:52,800
You know? 
There's they just keep coming 

1244
01:12:52,800 --> 01:12:55,500
out. 
Have you tested any of the the 

1245
01:12:55,500 --> 01:12:59,000
new models that haven't made 
those studies like the dust and 

1246
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,400
study that showed, you know, the
Alpha Phi Vapor fly and meta 

1247
01:13:02,400 --> 01:13:03,900
speed Sky kind of in this 
category? 

1248
01:13:04,000 --> 01:13:06,700
Three of their own. 
Are there any new ones that 

1249
01:13:06,800 --> 01:13:10,300
you've tested with athletes? 
That you've seen anything unique

1250
01:13:10,300 --> 01:13:13,500
with or interesting? 
Yeah, I will say that. 

1251
01:13:13,500 --> 01:13:21,600
The old endorphin, the original 
endorphin seems to be variable 

1252
01:13:21,900 --> 01:13:27,700
for some individuals. 
The new endorphin seems to be 

1253
01:13:27,700 --> 01:13:30,900
more uniformly. 
Beneficial, how's that? 

1254
01:13:31,300 --> 01:13:33,800
I'm like. 
Yeah, I think that it's and the 

1255
01:13:33,900 --> 01:13:38,500
I think there is just that the 
foam that like, it's there all. 

1256
01:13:38,500 --> 01:13:42,000
It was always pebax foam, but 
the foam in that, and one it's a

1257
01:13:42,008 --> 01:13:44,300
little bit later. 
I think it's a little bit later,

1258
01:13:44,400 --> 01:13:50,700
maybe Jesse, but the foam and I 
actually haven't tested. 

1259
01:13:51,100 --> 01:13:55,100
I've tested the old foam and 
it's has great energy return, 

1260
01:13:55,100 --> 01:13:57,000
but is not as soft as the vapor 
fly. 

1261
01:13:57,300 --> 01:13:59,800
And so I think there are some 
people that like, just the way 

1262
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:03,100
their foot interacts with the 
ground, like they don't need 

1263
01:14:03,100 --> 01:14:05,600
that. 
Like that, that cushioning, it 

1264
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,000
doesn't so they might be equal. 
Like, I was actually somebody 

1265
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:12,800
has it makes I test pretty equal
like the old endorphin, I would 

1266
01:14:12,800 --> 01:14:16,400
get almost I mean I was within 
fractions of a percent of the 

1267
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:20,400
vapor fly in the alpha fly. 
It was pretty close but other 

1268
01:14:20,400 --> 01:14:23,600
people like I mean Dustin's 
original study had this if it 

1269
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:28,700
was like across the population 
was not as beneficial as the the

1270
01:14:28,700 --> 01:14:32,500
Nike shoes. 
But I think I've seen very I've 

1271
01:14:32,500 --> 01:14:37,700
even seen athletes that test Are
in that shoe that the Nike shoes

1272
01:14:37,700 --> 01:14:42,300
and so in the in the elite one. 
Yes, the oh yeah, not that, 

1273
01:14:42,300 --> 01:14:43,700
that's it. 
That's a great example. 

1274
01:14:43,700 --> 01:14:46,500
Where they change the 
formulation of that foam to be 

1275
01:14:47,100 --> 01:14:49,500
has the same, presumably the 
same energy return. 

1276
01:14:49,500 --> 01:14:52,300
Because I think if you're using 
a p --ba foam, you're going to, 

1277
01:14:52,400 --> 01:14:57,600
you're going to, it's going to 
have probably mid 80s but 80% 

1278
01:14:57,600 --> 01:15:00,100
mid 80 percents are just fun 
night. 

1279
01:15:00,100 --> 01:15:02,900
They're claiming they're 
claiming 95 resilience number. 

1280
01:15:02,900 --> 01:15:04,300
Oh shoot wow. 
Wow. 

1281
01:15:04,300 --> 01:15:07,300
Okay yeah, I need to get back to
the lab and Ann Arbor and test. 

1282
01:15:08,600 --> 01:15:10,200
That's how it worth cancer. 
Maybe. 

1283
01:15:10,500 --> 01:15:12,400
Yeah. 
That's the only reference for a 

1284
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:13,800
while. 
We're like hey this is the you 

1285
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:16,500
know the P back stuff was kind 
of like 87 or something. 

1286
01:15:16,500 --> 01:15:20,700
And then the power run HG the 
like behind the seat of a time. 

1287
01:15:20,700 --> 01:15:21,500
Five. 
Yeah. 

1288
01:15:21,500 --> 01:15:26,700
So I was wondering about that. 
Is the HG like this. 

1289
01:15:26,700 --> 01:15:30,800
She's Lucid right there. 
Saying, nitrogen Feud, there's a

1290
01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,800
nitrogen and fuse just keep ax 
Falls taught Bible. 

1291
01:15:34,000 --> 01:15:35,600
Toxic. 
Yeah. 

1292
01:15:35,900 --> 01:15:39,000
He's like it's actually we're 
going to say here. 

1293
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:41,600
It's Mercury, infused P bat and 
I'm just kidding. 

1294
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:43,100
I think they should lean into 
that. 

1295
01:15:43,100 --> 01:15:48,500
Fuck, so powerful. 
Its deadly do not eat this. 

1296
01:15:48,900 --> 01:15:52,300
Yeah, huh. 
Yeah, I was wondering when I saw

1297
01:15:52,300 --> 01:15:54,900
the the like that, that power on
HG. 

1298
01:15:54,900 --> 01:15:57,700
I was wondering what the HG 
because my first yeah, anyway, 

1299
01:15:57,700 --> 01:16:03,600
because Mercury yeah. 
Anyways, but yeah, so that's 

1300
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:05,000
that's That's crazy. 
I didn't realize there were, 

1301
01:16:05,000 --> 01:16:09,500
there were touting those numbers
but yeah, so that's a great 

1302
01:16:09,500 --> 01:16:13,300
example where it's like, I don't
know like I this was something I

1303
01:16:13,308 --> 01:16:17,500
had been hoping to start like 
prior to, you know, back in Ann 

1304
01:16:17,500 --> 01:16:22,400
Arbor, what was having kind of 
like an open source like, like 

1305
01:16:22,400 --> 01:16:25,800
just testing shoes and putting 
out the properties of them, you 

1306
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:27,800
know, I'm not, it's very easy to
do once you, I mean, it's very 

1307
01:16:27,800 --> 01:16:30,600
hard to set up the protocol and 
work those machines. 

1308
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:33,000
And to have those machines 
because those are hundreds of 

1309
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,400
thousands of dollars. 
These types of machines that can

1310
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,300
do this accurately. 
But like, you know, once I set 

1311
01:16:38,300 --> 01:16:40,700
up the protocols, I was like I 
mean just bang shoes out and get

1312
01:16:40,700 --> 01:16:43,300
this to get these numbers. 
Yeah. 

1313
01:16:43,400 --> 01:16:45,700
Yeah. 
So now I'm super curious about 

1314
01:16:45,700 --> 01:16:47,900
that 95% that's in. 
Yeah. 

1315
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:53,100
And I think just for the 
listeners to use again, Jeff's 

1316
01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:56,100
referencing to study that's 
coming out and it looks at a 

1317
01:16:56,108 --> 01:16:59,300
myriad of these Foams and kind 
of these Key properties that he 

1318
01:16:59,300 --> 01:17:01,100
talks about in our previous 
episode. 

1319
01:17:01,100 --> 01:17:03,800
So go back and listen to that. 
And then, I don't know. 

1320
01:17:03,900 --> 01:17:06,900
Jeff if we can finagle you to 
come back and talk about that, 

1321
01:17:06,900 --> 01:17:09,100
that topic. 
I think it'd be super fun to 

1322
01:17:09,700 --> 01:17:12,000
we'd all be interested. 
I'd love to hear your take on 

1323
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:14,000
all of it and I know everybody 
else would too. 

1324
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,000
I do want to transition to the 
final question and it is that 

1325
01:17:18,000 --> 01:17:21,200
practical application and just 
processing for people in this 

1326
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,400
category that this study 
addressed, those people running 

1327
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,900
that 8 to 9:30 minute mile. 
How would you recommend them? 

1328
01:17:28,900 --> 01:17:31,200
Go through their shoe selection 
process? 

1329
01:17:31,200 --> 01:17:33,800
Based on the results of this 
study and your other thoughts? 

1330
01:17:33,900 --> 01:17:36,300
Thoughts knowing that it's a 
complicated answer. 

1331
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:44,900
Yeah, I There's like one half of
me that just wants to be, like, 

1332
01:17:44,900 --> 01:17:50,500
I'll just like get either the 
vapor fly or The Meta speed Sky,

1333
01:17:50,500 --> 01:17:53,400
which everyone's more 
comfortable, and then just roll 

1334
01:17:53,400 --> 01:17:56,900
with that. 
Like my sleep answer. 

1335
01:18:00,200 --> 01:18:03,100
That's like, that's my, that's 
my answer because it's like I 

1336
01:18:03,100 --> 01:18:05,800
know you're going to get on base
with one of those two shoes. 

1337
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:09,700
Like Pretty well. 
Another one of these shoes, you 

1338
01:18:09,700 --> 01:18:12,900
might like hit a home run in 
maybe but you might also 

1339
01:18:12,900 --> 01:18:17,100
strikeout. 
But anyways, Dustin would Dustin

1340
01:18:17,100 --> 01:18:19,800
would like probably definitively
add the alpha fly in there. 

1341
01:18:20,300 --> 01:18:21,600
And I'll plug that for him as 
well. 

1342
01:18:21,900 --> 01:18:24,700
Because I think there is again a
little bit, a little bit 

1343
01:18:25,100 --> 01:18:28,000
different mechanically. 
And when I come back on our 

1344
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,400
next, our next conversation were
on the phones and the 

1345
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:33,700
constructions, I can talk about 
how the alpha flies little 

1346
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:39,000
little different, but Yeah, when
you go about thing, again it 

1347
01:18:39,000 --> 01:18:43,200
gets back to, you know, part of 
the benefit of these shoes is 

1348
01:18:43,200 --> 01:18:45,800
certainly the economy. 
Benefit of just the Foams and 

1349
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:48,000
the plate working together. 
And the other thing that we 

1350
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:51,300
didn't get into the kind of to 
Mechanical hypotheses is that 

1351
01:18:51,300 --> 01:18:55,000
like the plate, may also have a 
speed interaction and there's 

1352
01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:58,300
some thoughts around that. 
Like some kind of previous would

1353
01:18:58,300 --> 01:19:02,900
say, pieces of literature like 
one of my buddies and 

1354
01:19:02,900 --> 01:19:05,900
colleagues, Evan day now, 
actually works at Brooks in 

1355
01:19:05,900 --> 01:19:09,000
there, their research. 
Literally just talked to him 

1356
01:19:09,000 --> 01:19:12,400
last weekend by the way. 
Oh really we had a mod so that's

1357
01:19:12,400 --> 01:19:14,600
what's going on straight? 
Yeah. 

1358
01:19:14,700 --> 01:19:17,600
Great human him in Jennifer 
Sumner. 

1359
01:19:18,300 --> 01:19:19,100
Oh cool. 
Yeah. 

1360
01:19:19,100 --> 01:19:23,400
Did because he you know his Ph.D
work was around longitudinal 

1361
01:19:23,400 --> 01:19:25,800
bending stiffness and shoes and 
the person he can join. 

1362
01:19:25,800 --> 01:19:26,900
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

1363
01:19:26,900 --> 01:19:29,900
And yes, some data points that 
kind of suggested that there 

1364
01:19:29,900 --> 01:19:34,700
might be a speed effect to that,
to the economy benefit. 

1365
01:19:34,900 --> 01:19:37,000
And so I, you know, I thought 
that was one of the the Thoughts

1366
01:19:37,000 --> 01:19:39,700
of like, well, maybe but plates 
the way that they're interacting

1367
01:19:39,700 --> 01:19:44,500
like you gotta you kind of have 
to be running faster to get the 

1368
01:19:44,800 --> 01:19:47,900
interaction, The Beneficial 
interaction with the plate again

1369
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:50,500
wild. 
Speculation, dangerous 

1370
01:19:50,500 --> 01:19:55,800
hypotheses but so I think I 
think when we start thinking 

1371
01:19:55,800 --> 01:19:59,100
about, you know, people who are 
running, you know, slower and in

1372
01:19:59,108 --> 01:20:05,300
these shoes, I still think that 
there are substantial benefits 

1373
01:20:05,300 --> 01:20:10,200
to the shoes that we haven't. 
Really unpacked yet that that 

1374
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:14,300
are probably going to be you 
know, positively affecting you 

1375
01:20:14,300 --> 01:20:20,200
for both racing and training. 
And so I think that that is that

1376
01:20:20,200 --> 01:20:23,600
is a piece but I think you will 
get that from just about any 

1377
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:28,600
shoe that is that has one of 
these next-generation Foams with

1378
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:33,400
a curved plate built within it. 
And so again that's you know 

1379
01:20:33,500 --> 01:20:39,200
Mikey makes a couple a six makes
a couple Kenny has there's I 

1380
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:41,500
think, I don't know. 
I don't know where Brooks is 

1381
01:20:41,500 --> 01:20:43,500
that. 
I feel but I feel a little 

1382
01:20:43,500 --> 01:20:45,300
guilty for not knowing yeah. 
They're not there. 

1383
01:20:45,300 --> 01:20:46,700
That's okay. 
Not it. 

1384
01:20:46,700 --> 01:20:49,300
They are they have something 
that's on the feet of elite 

1385
01:20:49,300 --> 01:20:52,600
athletes that, maybe the current
lineup? 

1386
01:20:52,600 --> 01:20:55,200
No. 
Yeah, I kind of figured it might

1387
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:59,300
be there polka. 
Finally joined at the club that 

1388
01:20:59,300 --> 01:21:03,800
I don't think it's for sale yet,
but eventually, we'll, it is 

1389
01:21:04,400 --> 01:21:13,400
today's okay, that's good. 
But but yeah, so I think like, 

1390
01:21:13,400 --> 01:21:16,900
you know these the you know, my 
again my kind of go to 

1391
01:21:16,900 --> 01:21:21,200
recommendations are generally 
like Nike Asics and Saucony 

1392
01:21:21,200 --> 01:21:25,900
because we've seen they've 
they've not only like had them 

1393
01:21:25,900 --> 01:21:29,000
for a while and we have 
empirical data, which is very 

1394
01:21:29,000 --> 01:21:31,800
important but they've also 
iterated on them which is also 

1395
01:21:31,800 --> 01:21:33,600
very important. 
The other one I didn't mention 

1396
01:21:33,600 --> 01:21:39,400
that well, you know, we're We're
will have to like, get Dustin 

1397
01:21:39,400 --> 01:21:42,200
and I back on again because 
we're going on another project 

1398
01:21:42,200 --> 01:21:46,400
now where we have data on like 
both the spikes but also the 

1399
01:21:46,400 --> 01:21:48,900
Adidas shoes. 
And so I think the Adidas ones 

1400
01:21:48,900 --> 01:21:52,100
are a little trickier where 
they're like, I think the 

1401
01:21:52,100 --> 01:21:55,200
phone's good. 
And a lot of people tend to, I 

1402
01:21:55,200 --> 01:22:00,100
would say, on average have 
similar responses to Nike. 

1403
01:22:00,400 --> 01:22:03,700
I'm actually somebody who does 
not respond to the Adidas shoe 

1404
01:22:03,700 --> 01:22:06,000
very well. 
Like, I'm again, it's like I get

1405
01:22:06,000 --> 01:22:11,100
about half Benefit that I get 
from the Nike shoes, and, and 

1406
01:22:11,100 --> 01:22:14,600
it's funny, because it's truly a
shoe that, like, when I, when I 

1407
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,100
put it on my foot, it feels 
incredibly comfortable. 

1408
01:22:17,100 --> 01:22:19,600
Like my first thought when I put
the shoe on was like, wow, I 

1409
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:22,000
would walk around in this. 
You like this is kind of cool 

1410
01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:26,800
but when I run an it I've like I
don't know. 

1411
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:31,100
It's not that it feels terrible,
but I've had like, I've tweaked 

1412
01:22:31,100 --> 01:22:35,000
my hamstring a couple times like
running in it over the last, 

1413
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:39,300
like, couple of years and It 
just doesn't, there's just 

1414
01:22:39,300 --> 01:22:41,700
something that like over the 
long term being in it. 

1415
01:22:41,700 --> 01:22:45,900
It just doesn't feel like it 
works with my with my mechanics.

1416
01:22:46,100 --> 01:22:49,800
And I think part of that is 
like, it's the one that has, you

1417
01:22:49,808 --> 01:22:52,800
know, has I would say it has 
good foam but the way that they 

1418
01:22:52,800 --> 01:22:56,100
do the rigid element in it, 
that's not, it's not exactly a 

1419
01:22:56,100 --> 01:22:57,600
plate. 
You know, you have the curved 

1420
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:01,000
rods and the heel but the 
interesting thing is that those 

1421
01:23:01,000 --> 01:23:03,100
are those are somewhat 
decoupled. 

1422
01:23:03,100 --> 01:23:06,800
I think if you actually cut it 
open there like flush with Each 

1423
01:23:06,808 --> 01:23:10,800
other, but they're not a 
continuous element and I think 

1424
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:12,800
that that again just depends on 
the person. 

1425
01:23:12,800 --> 01:23:15,800
Some people, it's no different. 
And it works just like the Nike 

1426
01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:19,700
shoe or those issue but maybe 
for some people, it's like a 

1427
01:23:19,708 --> 01:23:24,000
little different, I don't know. 
So again I'm one that like 

1428
01:23:24,000 --> 01:23:27,800
doesn't respond quite as well to
that but so that's why I'm like,

1429
01:23:28,100 --> 01:23:30,400
I know I'm making a safe 
recommendation if you go with 

1430
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:34,800
one of these others like, but it
gets back to so your listeners 

1431
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:38,000
or running, you know? 
Eight, nine, ten minute miles. 

1432
01:23:39,100 --> 01:23:42,000
Yeah, I think all of those 
aspects of the shoes. 

1433
01:23:42,000 --> 01:23:44,900
There's there's benefit to be 
had there of having essentially 

1434
01:23:44,900 --> 01:23:47,100
this better elastic element 
under your foot and this plate. 

1435
01:23:47,100 --> 01:23:50,700
That's helping you move through.
Whether that's potentially 

1436
01:23:50,700 --> 01:23:53,500
mitigating, some of, that 
eccentric muscle damage incurred

1437
01:23:53,500 --> 01:23:57,500
over the course of whether it's 
a race or just in training, but 

1438
01:23:57,500 --> 01:24:00,500
also the fact that it's, you 
know, how how you would be 

1439
01:24:00,500 --> 01:24:04,100
Translating that that treadmill,
you know, those treadmill 

1440
01:24:04,500 --> 01:24:08,400
numbers to to the His 
performances might be different.

1441
01:24:08,500 --> 01:24:12,200
Because again, we have these, 
you know, larger data analyses 

1442
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:15,900
from like the New York Times, it
would see for those speeds 

1443
01:24:15,900 --> 01:24:17,600
getting pretty substantial 
benefits. 

1444
01:24:17,600 --> 01:24:21,000
So it's like, you can think of 
like if you're having an economy

1445
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:25,600
benefit, even if it's 1% or 2% 
over the course of a marathon, 

1446
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:29,900
like that's, you know, an 
economy benefit is by definition

1447
01:24:29,900 --> 01:24:34,800
energy or saving which is energy
that you're not like, you know, 

1448
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:37,600
think of like your glycogen 
stores and Your body that that's

1449
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,100
like, you're dipping into those 
less and less, and less. 

1450
01:24:40,100 --> 01:24:43,400
And so, if it's something that, 
you know, this is kind of a 

1451
01:24:43,400 --> 01:24:45,300
whole nother. 
It's a hypothesis for the 

1452
01:24:45,300 --> 01:24:49,100
benefit of them, but it's like 
if you aren't going so deep into

1453
01:24:49,100 --> 01:24:52,700
these like fuel reserves on your
body, perhaps, at some point, 

1454
01:24:52,700 --> 01:24:55,500
there starts to be nonlinear 
performance changes where it's 

1455
01:24:55,500 --> 01:25:00,900
like, if you start to go much 
deeper, you have dramatically 

1456
01:25:00,900 --> 01:25:02,700
different effects on your 
performance. 

1457
01:25:02,700 --> 01:25:04,800
And so, if you like, you know, 
you're essentially saving 

1458
01:25:04,800 --> 01:25:07,800
calories and your body by 
wearing these Choose that could 

1459
01:25:07,800 --> 01:25:09,600
be another thing that helps you 
in the long run. 

1460
01:25:10,600 --> 01:25:13,900
So yes I think there are a lot 
of pieces that that suggests 

1461
01:25:13,900 --> 01:25:17,800
that they're still beneficial. 
And I think one of my I don't 

1462
01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:20,000
know one of the things that I 
think is most interesting but 

1463
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:21,600
perhaps kind of brings it 
together. 

1464
01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:24,700
As like I remember, you know, 
some of your listeners might be 

1465
01:25:24,700 --> 01:25:28,000
familiar with burned, Heinrich, 
which he's written the book why 

1466
01:25:28,000 --> 01:25:30,100
we're on? 
And he's also written a ton of 

1467
01:25:30,100 --> 01:25:32,700
done or other folks, it again. 
Yes, absolutely. 

1468
01:25:32,700 --> 01:25:35,100
One of my favorite, one of my 
favorite books out, right? 

1469
01:25:35,100 --> 01:25:37,500
Like not just a running book, 
but But he's a, he's a 

1470
01:25:37,508 --> 01:25:40,100
physiologist originally, an 
insect physiologist. 

1471
01:25:40,100 --> 01:25:45,300
But yeah I remember he's he he 
has a, you know, a history in 

1472
01:25:45,300 --> 01:25:48,000
ultra running like he's a very 
very good Ultra runner back in 

1473
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:53,600
the 80s and he just recently 
kind of like rekindled his 

1474
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,600
Pursuit and ultra running and I 
saw him at a race. 

1475
01:25:58,400 --> 01:26:02,200
This is two years ago I think 
I'm and he's in his 80s now and 

1476
01:26:02,200 --> 01:26:05,200
he's going to be racing as a 
50-mile race in Chicago and sure

1477
01:26:05,200 --> 01:26:06,500
enough he's running in the vapor
flow. 

1478
01:26:06,700 --> 01:26:10,900
He's running, you know, much 
much, much slower than what he 

1479
01:26:10,900 --> 01:26:14,000
was years ago, and he could 
Rick, you know, low six-minute 

1480
01:26:14,000 --> 01:26:18,500
miles 450 miles. 
But, yeah, he's wearing the 

1481
01:26:18,500 --> 01:26:23,800
Vapor Flies that he does, all of
his training in them and I 

1482
01:26:23,800 --> 01:26:25,700
laughed and I first saw that 
because I'm like, the 

1483
01:26:25,700 --> 01:26:28,900
physiologist is keeping up on 
his, you know, Locomotion 

1484
01:26:28,900 --> 01:26:34,300
research, that's great, but I 
think it stands that one of my 

1485
01:26:34,300 --> 01:26:38,600
curiosity's and there is another
Another professor actually in an

1486
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:42,300
arboretum friends with that's 
he's in his 80s as well and just

1487
01:26:42,300 --> 01:26:45,300
deeply loves running and he was 
loving running in the Saucony 

1488
01:26:45,300 --> 01:26:49,300
endorphin for this reason. 
I think that that elasticity, 

1489
01:26:49,600 --> 01:26:52,400
you know, something that we 
might lose as we get older and 

1490
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,000
older and we see this in the 
biomechanics of people as they 

1491
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:58,500
age and I think it's also true 
and we run at slower speeds as 

1492
01:26:58,500 --> 01:27:04,700
we have less would say like less
elastic mechanics that are less 

1493
01:27:04,700 --> 01:27:06,900
spring. 
Like there's more same More 

1494
01:27:06,900 --> 01:27:10,600
eccentric and concentric action.
That these shoes are essentially

1495
01:27:10,600 --> 01:27:14,300
like we're adding a nearly 
perfect elastic element to 

1496
01:27:14,300 --> 01:27:18,100
ourselves and I think, you know,
for like the Aging Runner or 

1497
01:27:18,100 --> 01:27:21,600
even like slowing down, I think 
by giving yourself that there's,

1498
01:27:22,000 --> 01:27:24,700
there's a, there's a benefit. 
I would, I would, I would lean 

1499
01:27:24,700 --> 01:27:27,200
heavily on that and that's why. 
I mean, one of the things I'm 

1500
01:27:27,200 --> 01:27:29,900
excited about the shoes is like,
yeah, what they might do for 

1501
01:27:29,900 --> 01:27:33,200
people as we get older of like, 
you know, preserving preserving.

1502
01:27:33,200 --> 01:27:36,700
Those spring like mechanics, 
it's interesting you bring Ring 

1503
01:27:36,700 --> 01:27:40,200
that up because that is exactly 
what in terms of injury is my 

1504
01:27:40,200 --> 01:27:43,700
dissertation is on, is on why 
older individuals seem to have 

1505
01:27:43,700 --> 01:27:45,700
such a high rate of Achilles 
tendinopathy, which I think 

1506
01:27:45,700 --> 01:27:50,300
speaks to the loss and the 
change in the Tenon properties 

1507
01:27:50,300 --> 01:27:53,200
and elasticity but also kind of 
curious. 

1508
01:27:53,200 --> 01:27:56,100
See if there's any strength and 
power changes in the gastroc 

1509
01:27:56,100 --> 01:27:58,900
solely as which is the primary 
propulsive muscle in running. 

1510
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:02,200
So it's very interesting as I've
watched more and more. 

1511
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:05,300
And this is now testimonial 
watch, many, many older runners 

1512
01:28:05,300 --> 01:28:07,200
go. 
Who are my I'm very patient 

1513
01:28:07,200 --> 01:28:10,900
population that I work with. 
Now privately being a professor 

1514
01:28:11,200 --> 01:28:14,500
that they love these shoes. 
These are like, there's a small 

1515
01:28:14,500 --> 01:28:16,800
group that like, oh I'm going to
stand by my hyperspace or 

1516
01:28:16,800 --> 01:28:19,700
whatever but they love them. 
And as always like I just want 

1517
01:28:19,700 --> 01:28:22,100
to train in this stuff all the 
time because it gives me that 

1518
01:28:22,100 --> 01:28:25,800
all this to see the remember 
that we are losing, right? 

1519
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:27,600
Yeah. 
So it's interesting though, of 

1520
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:31,100
what are you know, I can't 
answer this right now, but are 

1521
01:28:31,100 --> 01:28:34,900
there any risks to that, right? 
In terms of your ability to 

1522
01:28:34,900 --> 01:28:37,000
utilize that tool? 
Yes, it's giving You that 

1523
01:28:37,000 --> 01:28:39,500
elasticity and maybe I'm not 
saying that correctly, but are 

1524
01:28:39,500 --> 01:28:43,300
there any anything you need to 
do to prep for that kind of 

1525
01:28:43,400 --> 01:28:46,500
coming back very suddenly or do 
you need to ease into this which

1526
01:28:46,500 --> 01:28:50,100
is always my recommendation? 
Like any new stimulus might feel

1527
01:28:50,100 --> 01:28:53,900
great but take your time to 
build in because you also your 

1528
01:28:53,900 --> 01:28:56,500
you're responding to the shoe in
more ways than you might 

1529
01:28:56,500 --> 01:28:58,600
realize. 
And that might be you know we 

1530
01:28:58,600 --> 01:29:00,800
don't get rid of forces, right? 
So things are going to be 

1531
01:29:01,100 --> 01:29:04,200
redirected in other areas but 
I'm just it's kind of funny that

1532
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:06,800
you say that because I'm seeing 
this more and more as like Like,

1533
01:29:07,000 --> 01:29:09,300
I, what, you know, we're telling
people don't train in these 

1534
01:29:09,300 --> 01:29:12,200
shoes and yet people like, yes, 
it's the only sure we're because

1535
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:14,300
I feel great. 
Why would I not wear this all 

1536
01:29:14,300 --> 01:29:18,100
the time like last station build
up for World Championships? 

1537
01:29:18,100 --> 01:29:24,100
I would say I did About 70% of 
my training in Super Shoes. 

1538
01:29:24,100 --> 01:29:29,700
All of my workouts and like at 
least half of my daily runs, 

1539
01:29:29,700 --> 01:29:34,900
maybe even more and it because 
for for that and I think I mean 

1540
01:29:34,900 --> 01:29:37,500
I had probably one of my best 
training blocks that I've ever 

1541
01:29:37,500 --> 01:29:42,500
had despite even having I 
actually think this is a whole 

1542
01:29:42,500 --> 01:29:44,700
separate conversation, but the 
Achilles struggles. 

1543
01:29:44,700 --> 01:29:47,200
I've had, I've actually think 
the Super Shoes probably help me

1544
01:29:47,200 --> 01:29:52,500
more because of that. 
So yeah, so I think so long as 

1545
01:29:52,500 --> 01:29:56,900
you adapt to the plate and the 
mechanical interaction that that

1546
01:29:56,900 --> 01:29:59,900
has, which has four different 
people, is going to have a 

1547
01:29:59,900 --> 01:30:02,700
different lead in time. 
That's something you have to be 

1548
01:30:02,700 --> 01:30:04,200
careful with. 
But once you have that, you 

1549
01:30:04,208 --> 01:30:07,000
don't have issues. 
I mean I don't think that there 

1550
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:11,200
are really like any problems 
with doing a lot of running and 

1551
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:14,600
I think you can kind of do it 
almost like ad libitum, you 

1552
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:18,300
know, of like what what is most 
comfortable for you at some 

1553
01:30:18,300 --> 01:30:20,800
point? 
And I've Just you and like 

1554
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:24,300
different points of like your 
body kind of craves something 

1555
01:30:24,300 --> 01:30:26,800
that is like not a super shoe, 
right? 

1556
01:30:26,800 --> 01:30:30,700
When you get you give it to it 
but I think it's like again you 

1557
01:30:30,708 --> 01:30:34,600
have somebody who just loves to 
run in those every day like I 

1558
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:38,400
would not have any issue, I 
would just maybe counter that of

1559
01:30:38,400 --> 01:30:41,400
like, well just know that like 
be careful when you change to 

1560
01:30:41,400 --> 01:30:43,400
something else. 
Obviously like another 

1561
01:30:43,700 --> 01:30:46,000
something. 
So it's that idea of just being 

1562
01:30:46,000 --> 01:30:50,900
aware of, you know, stimuli 
changes but I think Dad doing a 

1563
01:30:50,900 --> 01:30:52,800
lot of training in them is not a
bad thing. 

1564
01:30:53,400 --> 01:30:57,200
Well, I thanks for giving that 
response to because I think you 

1565
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,200
can read a study like this and 
you can even read the 

1566
01:30:59,200 --> 01:31:02,200
conclusions and you could come 
to a lot of practical decision 

1567
01:31:02,200 --> 01:31:04,200
making processes that look, a 
lot of different ways. 

1568
01:31:04,200 --> 01:31:07,000
So from one of the author's, 
mouths is great to hear your 

1569
01:31:07,000 --> 01:31:09,700
response. 
I also think I kind of mentioned

1570
01:31:09,700 --> 01:31:12,400
this at the beginning but just 
to reiterate, that can the 

1571
01:31:12,400 --> 01:31:16,200
context of this conversation is 
about the effect of these types 

1572
01:31:16,200 --> 01:31:19,600
of shoes on performance. 
My PT hat, when I put it on, 

1573
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:22,800
there's a All other conversation
surrounding different injury 

1574
01:31:22,800 --> 01:31:24,300
types and all that kind of 
thing. 

1575
01:31:24,300 --> 01:31:26,300
Like, that's a whole other 
conversation that that's not 

1576
01:31:26,300 --> 01:31:28,100
what we're talking about. 
So just make sure you 

1577
01:31:28,100 --> 01:31:32,000
contextualize this conversation 
in the performance realm but 

1578
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:34,200
again, Jeff, thanks so much for 
joining us. 

1579
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:37,000
If you didn't, if you didn't 
notice, I'm sure you did. 

1580
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:41,400
All of a sudden, Dustin stop 
talking in this conversation, he

1581
01:31:41,400 --> 01:31:45,000
moved this weekend, internet got
set up like three hours ago at 

1582
01:31:45,000 --> 01:31:48,700
their new house and they had a 
delivery come in that he had to 

1583
01:31:48,700 --> 01:31:51,600
jump off or so. 
So that's that's why it ended up

1584
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:53,800
being the three of us for the 
rest of the conversation. 

1585
01:31:54,400 --> 01:31:56,800
But I'm sure we'll find another 
time for us all to get together.

1586
01:31:57,000 --> 01:32:00,800
But Jeff again, thank you so 
much for joining us and sharing 

1587
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:04,300
all your thoughts on this. 
And we can't look, we look 

1588
01:32:04,300 --> 01:32:07,100
forward to talking to you again,
more about Foams and the new 

1589
01:32:07,100 --> 01:32:10,300
study of got coming out. 
And if you have other questions 

1590
01:32:10,300 --> 01:32:13,800
that you want us to ask Jeff for
Dustin the future, you can send 

1591
01:32:13,800 --> 01:32:17,800
us an email at doctors of 
running podcast at gmail.com or 

1592
01:32:17,900 --> 01:32:19,800
comment on the video if you're 
watching. 

1593
01:32:20,000 --> 01:32:23,000
Be a video or reach out to us on
our socials as well. 

1594
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:25,700
So thanks again Jeff for for 
joining us today. 

1595
01:32:26,200 --> 01:32:29,000
Yeah, totally my pleasure love 
talking to you guys love talking

1596
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:31,200
to Austin to. 
So we'll have to get him. 

1597
01:32:32,800 --> 01:32:37,100
I'm I already am committing to a
follow up with with him? 

1598
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:41,300
Yeah, great. 
Perfect. 

1599
01:32:41,900 --> 01:32:42,600
Thanks everybody.