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Hey, everyone, welcome to the 
Doctors Running podcast, where 

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we, a group of doctors to 
physical therapy, talk about the

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art and the science of the 
things that we're putting on our

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feet. 
Today, I have the utmost honor 

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of having Becca from Hoka come 
in to talk about a very cool 

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shoe and some of the changes 
that Hoka is going through. 

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Becca, thanks for being on. 
Really appreciate your time. 

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Yeah, really excited to be here.
Thanks for having me. 

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I love your background because 
when you came on, I'm like, 

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wait, oh, that's right. 
Hoka's got a Portland office. 

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I'm like, that looks really 
familiar. 

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Oh, yeah, because I grew up 
there. 

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That's great. 
Did you, did you move from 

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Illinois, by the way, or were 
you already, like, situated in 

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Santa Barbara or um, in Portland
before starting with Hoka? 

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I'm actually new to the PNW. 
So 4 years ago for the Hoka 

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team. 
I was in Boston for about 8 

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years prior to that, but then 
grew up in Illinois. 

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So it's been a really fun 
experience to check out kind of 

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both coasts. 
Get a trail for kind of a taste 

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for trail running and like life 
and running in different cities 

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and different vibes, but 
absolutely love the PNW and our 

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office here is in a pretty sweet
spot, so I can go take some 

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lunch runs up in Forest Park 
behind me here or head down to 

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the river when I want to avoid 
the hills. 

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Yeah, you got the best of both 
worlds. 

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Awesome. 
All right. 

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So we'll jump right in here 
because you have a new shoe 

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coming out, the Hokka, and 
hopefully I'm going to say this,

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the CLO X1, 3.0, which is quite 
a mouthful, but this shoe is 

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very interesting. 
So is there anything, before I 

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start diving in with questions, 
anything you want to tell the 

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listeners about kind of this 
shoe and then we can dive into a

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little bit more of the specifics
about it, but it is your super 

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your premier super racing shoe 
and I'll let you introduce 

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anything else you want to about 
this shoe. 

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Yeah, I think Cielo for us has 
been a collection of shoes 

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that's been synonymous with 
speed. 

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So if you have followed a Hoka's
journey on the track or followed

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Hoka's journey into a little bit
more of that elite space for 

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road racing, the Cielo X1 one 
was truly like the 1st super, 

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super shoe we put out there in 
the market. 

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We've had good success with 
franchises like the Rocket X, 

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but I think Siela was truly the 
opportunity for us to take some 

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bigger swings and really like 
shoot for the sky with some 

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concepts and some amazing 
products. 

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Um, we've also had a Cielo 
collection on the track for a 

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while. 
So a lot of it is really tied 

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into some learnings there and 
really pulling that elite family

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of racing shoes together. 
Yeah. 

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And this, it's been kind of 
crazy because like the, The 

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change from each version has 
been so drastic. 

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A lot of, I know a lot of 
companies will like kind of wait

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and like you'll see this kind of
upper change and like, all 

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right, like we're, but you all 
have like been super aggressive.

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Each version has been a total 
redesign and definitely going to

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ask some questions about like, 
hey, what were the kind of the 

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reasoning and stuff like that? 
But yeah, this is this shoe is 

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totally the weight drop is 
really significant. 

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The geometry is different. 
The change in some of the soul 

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design. 
I'm just really curious. 

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But overall, like, what was the 
big theme that you were looking 

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for with version 3 compared to 
the previous ones? 

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What kind of what helped guide 
you all with where you were 

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going with this? 
Well, you've hit on a couple 

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really important things for us. 
I think, especially when you're 

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looking at this pinnacle racing 
space, it's just so important to

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acknowledge how quickly. 
athletes are moving, um, like 

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physically and literally in this
space, right? 

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um, and metaphorically, I think,
uh, we look at what's happening 

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in the industry. 
We look at what's happening with

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technology, we also look at, I 
think, what is happening in 

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terms of perception. and change 
for what fast feels like and 

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looks like and for us, I think 
that means with every shoe and 

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every iteration here, we want to
be able to take big swings. 

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If we're not doing something 
that feels potentially a little 

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polarizing in some cases, we're 
probably missing an opportunity 

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to learn something interesting. 
So, I think the 3.0 is really 

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exciting because it does feel 
like the end of a cumulative 

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journey of a lot of learning is 
from the one. 

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Oh, the 2.0, our stable of 
athletes has grown are trust 

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with the runner in this base is 
grown as well. 

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So we have more feedback than 
ever before. 

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And I think as we dive into it, 
you'll kind of start to see how 

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all of that gets pulled into all
those different ingredients that

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you've called out that have 
really changed and informed this

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update. 
Yep. 

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I will also like to give you 
credit. 

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Not only is that improved, but 
this is the 1st version I've 

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been able to get decent miles 
on. 

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I still haven't ripped the heel 
off. 

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So just this is my left shoe. 
So it's this is doing good. 

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Um, man, now I'm joking about 
that. 

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I forgot where I was going with 
this. 

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Um, the, uh, you were talking 
about geometry, let's see. 

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The, oh, I don't know if you can
say this, so feel free to ignore

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this question if you want, but a
lot of the listeners, I've been 

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very fortunate to be not in the 
space, but be with people who 

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have educated me about this. 
Are you allowed to tell the 

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listeners how long do you all 
have been working on this shoe? 

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Like, how long does it actually 
take something like this to go 

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from like pen, paper? 
Well, I guess in today's world 

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now, it's actually screen to 
actually getting it out to the 

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consumer? 
Yeah, I'm happy to share some 

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there. 
Honestly, I think it never 

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really stops for us. 
There's this constant evolution 

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and constant tinkering. 
I actually go back to um, the 

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2.0. 
So, We have the 2.0. you know, 

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we kind of locked in everything 
for the 2.0 from a production 

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perspective, and we're actually 
immediately thinking of, what do

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we want to test? 
What do we want to do next? 

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What do we want to try? 
And a lot of the things that 

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we'll talk about with the 3.0 
actually came. from some of that

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initial thought process. 
So we had we had the 2.0, right?

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This is a known entity. 
We really just wanted to look at

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all the variables that we could 
start to learn from immediately.

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And this is, honestly, even 
before we have some like broader

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consumer sentiment about 
performance. 

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So we're just trying to really 
take those learnings in 

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different chapters and waves. 
But even plugging in different 

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things, like different drometers
of mitzel compounds into an 

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existing tooling. different 
plate stiffnesses in geometry, 

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it's different outsole 
compounds. 

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I mean, that started 
immediately. 

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This thing was like just hot out
of the oven, right? 

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Like oven glows are on. 
This thing is still freshly 

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baked and we're already trying 
to iterate and think of what we 

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can do differently for the next 
one. 

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Yeah, so that's like how many 
year kind of turnaround, right? 

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Because that's like what, can it
be anywhere from like 3 to 5 

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years? 
It's not still pretty consistent

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or things speeding up? 
Things are speeding up. 

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So you're talking about kind of 
inline innovation and good 

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market processes. 
You're really looking at like 18

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to 24 months. 
Wow, that is much quicker. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. it's pretty wild And

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then there are other components 
where if it's a longer term 

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compound engineering or 
development, then you're 

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definitely more in that kind of 
like 3 plus year range. 

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But for us, we've kind of 
planned to have more regular 

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updates in this space. 
We just know that there has to 

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be runway to bring more 
freshness to our athletes 

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faster. 
And so it just holds us 

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accountable too, to make sure 
that we are not sleeping on any 

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opportunity to learn and test 
and tinker. 

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So for us, truly, like, we get 
the 2.0 done and we say, like, 

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Hokay, what can we change and 
what can we learn from on this? 

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Next day. 
Got it. really cool. 

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So speaking which, speaking of 
lessons learned, there's a lot 

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of geometry changes that have 
occurred even from version one 

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to two, and let alone that from 
2 to 3, where I feel like some 

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of the one of the biggest things
is not only the stack height has

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kind of like, even though it's 
theoretically the same, right? 

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There's some clear differences 
here, but also the geometry, 

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whether it's the beveling that 
feels like, and you correct me 

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if I'm wrong, it feels like the 
forefoot rocker is much longer 

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than the previous version. 
That really changes how things 

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feel. 
I'm curious if you could dive 

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into you from a general 
geometric perspective. 

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What prompted that change? 
Like, what were the lessons what

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were we all thinking about? 
And then I'll bug in some 

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stability stuff in just a 
second? 

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Yes. 
I love it. 

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It's funny when we go back to 
the very 1st version of the 

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shoe. 
Um, you remember the one. we had

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the lateral cut at 2.0, we 
switched to the medial cutout. 

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Yep. 
On the one. 0 I think one of the

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things that surprised us was how
accessible a lot of people told 

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us that she was, right? 
So there was that unintended 

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benefit of being able to use it 
for more high intensity training

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sessions. 
Which I think was a great 

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learning for us, right? 
We say like, Hokay, this is 

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great. 
There's actually probably a 

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little bit more to the 
geometries and the general build

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of the issue than we thought. 
But it also probably meant we 

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weren't pushing some of those 
geometries quite far enough. to 

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really push it into that lighter
weight, more elite space. 

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So on the 2.0, I think a couple 
of the big things that we wanted

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to really tinker with was if we 
are considering kind of a faster

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pace, more midfoot striker, a 
little bit more supinated when 

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you're landing. 
We actually wanted to make sure 

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that we were taking advantage of
the full stack of Peeba and the 

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plate in this zone to really 
capture the foot at that moment.

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So, the 2.0 I would say was when
we kind of were more declarative

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00:09:50,419 --> 00:09:53,819
of a specific kind of 
biomechanical use case or set. 

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Um, and then we didn't want to 
completely mitigate anything in 

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the heel, right? 
So we still had this medial heel

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00:10:01,659 --> 00:10:04,918
pod that was pretty robust, but 
a little bit more articulated. 

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00:10:04,919 --> 00:10:08,604
Um, and really just focused on 
kind of the midfoot to the 4 

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00:10:08,604 --> 00:10:12,511
foot transition on the 2.0. 
We learned a lot in this setup, 

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talking to elite athletes, 
talking to runners. 

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And I think all of the things 
that we learned really just gave

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us this notion of, hey, we have 
a lot of really incredible 

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athletes. 
There are a lot of really fast 

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00:10:25,312 --> 00:10:28,154
athletes out there where your 
biomechanics actually go through

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a wide variety of change during 
the course of a race. 

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00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:35,630
So, really taking into account, 
not that like best case, not 

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fatigued, uh, 1st 10 K, 15 K of 
the race, but actually starting 

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to look at the system we wanted 
to be able to provide the last 5

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K of the race. 
And it's that notion of control 

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over fatigue in the later stages
that really led us to this 

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notion of removing the cutouts 
on either side, getting a little

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bit more robust with the 
midfoot, footprint. 

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00:11:00,899 --> 00:11:03,538
And then just really considering
the rocker profile. 

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00:11:03,539 --> 00:11:05,639
I mean, you hit it right on the 
head. 

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00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:08,760
We're really looking at kind of 
the kickpoint and the forefoot, 

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00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:12,722
where we want to start that, but
I would say also in the heel, 

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00:11:12,722 --> 00:11:16,684
um, you got a little bit more of
like a canoe rocker profile here

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versus a banana that again is 
just giving us that sensation of

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00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:21,778
additional control later in the 
race. 

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00:11:21,779 --> 00:11:23,728
Yep. 
And that's really important 

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00:11:23,728 --> 00:11:26,610
because I think people don't 
realize, and people love to get 

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00:11:26,610 --> 00:11:29,269
stuck on foot strikes. 
They're like, oh, this is how I 

223
00:11:29,269 --> 00:11:31,569
land, even though we've got 
great evidence that people are 

224
00:11:31,569 --> 00:11:34,097
very poor at reporting how they 
actually contact the ground, but

225
00:11:34,097 --> 00:11:37,074
we do also know that no matter 
where you do, it changes over 

226
00:11:37,074 --> 00:11:39,660
the course of a race. 
That's why the challenge is when

227
00:11:39,660 --> 00:11:42,060
you try to do this in a 
biomechanics club getting 

228
00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:45,660
somebody to go, hey, can you 
sign up and run for like 2 or 3 

229
00:11:45,660 --> 00:11:47,545
hours on this treadmill? 
No, people don't want to do 

230
00:11:47,545 --> 00:11:49,612
that. 
But like trying to get them in a

231
00:11:49,612 --> 00:11:52,468
fatigue state and figure out 
what that looks like, is can be 

232
00:11:52,468 --> 00:11:55,086
really challenging, but because 
we know this, and we know that 

233
00:11:55,086 --> 00:11:57,466
from a, from looking, watching 
people in marathons or longer 

234
00:11:57,466 --> 00:12:00,322
distance races, and you all are 
going to know this because you 

235
00:12:00,322 --> 00:12:02,226
have plenty of ultra 
marathoners, and that's a 

236
00:12:02,226 --> 00:12:04,549
totally different ball game. 
But having that rear heel 

237
00:12:04,549 --> 00:12:07,289
bubbles, like, again, there's 
going to be people that are 

238
00:12:07,289 --> 00:12:10,301
going to start landing farther 
back because as your soleus and 

239
00:12:10,301 --> 00:12:13,031
your planter flexors start to 
fatigue, all your calf muscles, 

240
00:12:13,031 --> 00:12:16,034
like, you're going to get on 
your heel because it's more 

241
00:12:16,034 --> 00:12:18,359
efficient and that's not bad. 
It's not creating damage. 

242
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,788
It's just what we do. 
So it was great to see that 

243
00:12:20,788 --> 00:12:22,979
bevel a little bit, but I have 
now learned. 

244
00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:25,818
And yes, the doctor running team
did get me a shirt that says, 

245
00:12:25,818 --> 00:12:28,870
uh, uh, got Bevel, like in the 
got milk thing, because I know I

246
00:12:28,870 --> 00:12:31,789
talk about this all the time. 
I know you have to be careful 

247
00:12:31,789 --> 00:12:34,538
with that because you add, you 
have to think about how it's 

248
00:12:34,538 --> 00:12:36,599
beveled but also how the foam's 
compressing as well. 

249
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,745
So one of the things with having
the foam feels much softer, more

250
00:12:40,745 --> 00:12:42,778
resilient than previous. 
First, it was a lot more bounce.

251
00:12:42,779 --> 00:12:45,717
But I know you have to balance 
that because then as you get 

252
00:12:45,717 --> 00:12:48,419
back there, you're going to get 
a lower dynamic drop, which some

253
00:12:48,419 --> 00:12:51,240
people might be great. 
Others that might be a little 

254
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:53,434
troublesome for caps. 
So I know I appreciate the 

255
00:12:53,434 --> 00:12:54,839
bevel. 
It smooths the right out. 

256
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:58,019
I also understand the like, care
that has to go into that. 

257
00:12:58,019 --> 00:13:01,847
Yeah, it's just main balance 
because when we look at it, 

258
00:13:01,847 --> 00:13:04,979
we're really considering the 
sweet spot for that treadmoint. 

259
00:13:04,980 --> 00:13:08,387
It is pulled back compared to 
the 2.0 so there's a little bit 

260
00:13:08,387 --> 00:13:11,623
more ground contact in the heel.
Another thing that I actually 

261
00:13:11,623 --> 00:13:15,275
think really contributes to a 
lot of that kind of like 

262
00:13:15,275 --> 00:13:18,595
sensation of additional material
and stability under the heel in 

263
00:13:18,595 --> 00:13:21,059
the 3.0. 
Um, when you actually look up 

264
00:13:21,059 --> 00:13:24,285
further in the midsole system 
here, There is a huge difference

265
00:13:24,285 --> 00:13:27,982
in terms of the amount of foam 
we have in this bridge that's 

266
00:13:27,982 --> 00:13:30,538
kind of connecting that medial 
and that lateral pod. 

267
00:13:30,539 --> 00:13:34,639
So, in the 2.0. 
It's actually a pretty thin 

268
00:13:34,639 --> 00:13:39,293
bridge of material here, which 
led that medial pod to feel 

269
00:13:39,293 --> 00:13:42,337
really articulated. 
So if you are a little bit 

270
00:13:42,337 --> 00:13:44,219
heavier in the heel, yeah, 
Hokay. 

271
00:13:44,220 --> 00:13:46,558
We, then we did this. we did 
this for you. 

272
00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,148
Yeah, thanks. 
That idea of like reducing that 

273
00:13:50,148 --> 00:13:53,519
sensation of decoupling was a 
really big one for us. 

274
00:13:53,519 --> 00:13:56,111
So I think even just 
considering, again, up above 

275
00:13:56,111 --> 00:13:59,278
what is actually in contact with
the ground is really important. 

276
00:13:59,279 --> 00:14:03,154
So, just how we are actually 
providing that sensation of 

277
00:14:03,154 --> 00:14:06,637
connection and control was 
really, really important for us 

278
00:14:06,637 --> 00:14:09,479
in this update. 
Yeah, definitely felt that. 

279
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:11,958
I'm really curious. 
I think Andrea is about ready to

280
00:14:11,958 --> 00:14:14,621
get her pair. 
For me, we were the exact 

281
00:14:14,621 --> 00:14:17,158
opposite version two. 
Andrew was like, I love this. 

282
00:14:17,159 --> 00:14:19,759
And I'm like, that would make 
sense to somebody who's 

283
00:14:19,759 --> 00:14:22,609
supernates and is like a very 
heavy midfoot striker versus me 

284
00:14:22,609 --> 00:14:25,199
being the heel striker going, I 
am rolling off the. 

285
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,178
I can appreciate this, but I am 
rolling off this platform. 

286
00:14:27,179 --> 00:14:29,099
This is, I'm struggling with 
this. 

287
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:30,778
So I'm really curious to see how
she does with this. 

288
00:14:30,779 --> 00:14:34,252
And follow up question on that. 
So I can definitely feel that in

289
00:14:34,252 --> 00:14:36,582
the heel. 
Again, this is not the widest 

290
00:14:36,582 --> 00:14:37,999
platform. 
So those with significant 

291
00:14:37,999 --> 00:14:41,024
stability needs, this may not be
the most appropriate, but I'm 

292
00:14:41,024 --> 00:14:43,493
curious, what prompted the 
change to remove the meat, 

293
00:14:43,493 --> 00:14:45,959
because I know you've gotten 
lateral cutout, medial cutout. 

294
00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,820
Now you've got more relatively 
central, maybe a little bit more

295
00:14:48,820 --> 00:14:51,240
lateral. 
What prompted this change in the

296
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,939
midfoot? 
Uh, a couple different things. 

297
00:14:53,940 --> 00:14:56,508
So I mentioned this earlier, 
when we were looking at things 

298
00:14:56,508 --> 00:14:58,139
that we could learn from the 
2.0. 

299
00:14:58,139 --> 00:15:01,439
We started looking at known 
variables, right? 

300
00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,520
And we know, um, the PIBA 
compounds that we wanted to get 

301
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:09,600
after, uh, the general plate set
up and we started to experiment 

302
00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,639
with those 2 things pretty 
quickly. 

303
00:15:11,639 --> 00:15:16,110
After launching the 2.0. 
One thing that we started to 

304
00:15:16,110 --> 00:15:19,890
play around with that ultimately
led to some of these changes in 

305
00:15:19,890 --> 00:15:23,355
both the geometry and the plate 
shape was actually the derometer

306
00:15:23,355 --> 00:15:25,558
of people compounds that we were
using. 

307
00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:30,119
So in our previous version of 
the 2.0, we had a 37 C, so a 

308
00:15:30,119 --> 00:15:34,369
software kind of top bed of 
PIPA, and we were in the 40s for

309
00:15:34,369 --> 00:15:37,295
the bottom bed. 
So trying to get a little bit of

310
00:15:37,295 --> 00:15:40,571
a delta for a little bit more, 
um, hardness kind of closer to 

311
00:15:40,571 --> 00:15:42,839
the ground, that sensation of a 
little more control. 

312
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:48,277
One of the things we were just 
really curious to learn was from

313
00:15:48,277 --> 00:15:51,621
a mechanical testing perspective
and a perception testing 

314
00:15:51,621 --> 00:15:55,383
perspective, what happens if we 
actually double stack that 

315
00:15:55,383 --> 00:15:57,058
softer foam? 
Hmm. 

316
00:15:57,059 --> 00:16:00,609
And we were, we were so 
surprised, I think very 

317
00:16:00,609 --> 00:16:04,159
pleasantly, uh, to learn that 
not only did people experience 

318
00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:08,064
more, um, a more responsive 
feel, they were able to engage 

319
00:16:08,064 --> 00:16:12,323
with the plate more, they were 
kind of feeling more of the 

320
00:16:12,323 --> 00:16:16,200
system come to life. 
Um, but we also have really 

321
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,070
encouraging mechanical tests, 
even from changing something 

322
00:16:19,070 --> 00:16:23,358
like derometer of a compound. 
So, Once we learned that, we 

323
00:16:23,358 --> 00:16:27,088
were really intrigued by this 
kind of double stacked softer 

324
00:16:27,088 --> 00:16:31,564
setup and thought, if we are 
going to go into this softer 

325
00:16:31,564 --> 00:16:35,667
zone, top and bottom, what are 
the other areas that we 

326
00:16:35,667 --> 00:16:39,395
potentially need to adjust, to 
ensure that we have enough 

327
00:16:39,395 --> 00:16:41,999
stability set up in the entire 
system? 

328
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,177
So that's when we start 
considering things like the 

329
00:16:45,177 --> 00:16:48,707
plate geometry, um, and the 
cutouts, uh, recognizing that if

330
00:16:48,707 --> 00:16:52,587
we go too soft in existing 
cutouts, and that was something 

331
00:16:52,587 --> 00:16:57,163
that we got feedback on from 
testers when we tested that in a

332
00:16:57,163 --> 00:17:01,035
2.0 setup, It's going to be 
maybe too polarizing for too 

333
00:17:01,035 --> 00:17:04,147
many people. 
And so we really found, as we 

334
00:17:04,147 --> 00:17:08,619
started to work through test 
beds on that, that to go to a 

335
00:17:08,619 --> 00:17:12,404
slightly more symmetrical setup,
was able to really harness a lot

336
00:17:12,404 --> 00:17:15,500
of the positives about that 
softer, bottom loaded PIBA 

337
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:19,627
compound while allowing us to do
more with the plate geometry and

338
00:17:19,627 --> 00:17:22,378
the overall nets to maintain a 
stable ride. 

339
00:17:22,380 --> 00:17:25,068
So that's interesting that 
there's like both there's 

340
00:17:25,068 --> 00:17:29,088
limitations going, Hokay, if we 
do this in this part of the 

341
00:17:29,088 --> 00:17:32,773
shoe, here's where we're either 
have freedom or we get limited 

342
00:17:32,773 --> 00:17:35,139
in other parts. 
So this is constantly like a 

343
00:17:35,139 --> 00:17:37,851
cost benefit, like, Hokay, we 
want to try this, we can get 

344
00:17:37,851 --> 00:17:39,659
away with this, but that limits 
is here. 

345
00:17:39,660 --> 00:17:42,409
So being able to do a more 
central thing allowed you to 

346
00:17:42,409 --> 00:17:44,699
kind of experiment a little bit 
more with the plate. 

347
00:17:44,700 --> 00:17:47,640
Absolutely. 
Yeah, and there's a, there's a 

348
00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,880
liveliness to the feel. 
I think any of us who have used 

349
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,798
this product and and race in 
this product. 

350
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:56,531
There is that kind of like game 
day ready perception that you 

351
00:17:56,531 --> 00:17:59,641
have where it needs to have a 
different sensation than 

352
00:17:59,641 --> 00:18:03,058
something that you're going to 
use for every Sunday lawn run. 

353
00:18:03,059 --> 00:18:06,634
And so there was something about
that softer, double stack that 

354
00:18:06,634 --> 00:18:09,884
was checking and kind of 
triggering that part of the 

355
00:18:09,884 --> 00:18:12,479
brain that says it's time to go 
fast. 

356
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,259
The initial feedback from 
athletes also affirmed that. 

357
00:18:16,259 --> 00:18:19,004
So I think the 2nd we knew that.
We immediately started looking 

358
00:18:19,004 --> 00:18:22,376
at all the other variables on 
the table to figure out, Hokay, 

359
00:18:22,376 --> 00:18:26,298
if this is the setup we want to 
proceed with, then how do we 

360
00:18:26,298 --> 00:18:29,098
provide containment and these 
other things that we do crucial 

361
00:18:29,098 --> 00:18:31,987
for the end of the race. 
Speaking of containment, I'm 

362
00:18:31,987 --> 00:18:35,913
going to take this in a similar 
spot, but I wanted to comment 

363
00:18:35,913 --> 00:18:38,926
really quick that yes, it's 
interesting that as, like, the 

364
00:18:38,926 --> 00:18:41,635
whole industry is moving 
towards, like, the shoe is 

365
00:18:41,635 --> 00:18:44,198
getting more extreme. 
And the funny part about that is

366
00:18:44,198 --> 00:18:47,274
that when I broke these in, it 
was like, Hokay, you know, it's 

367
00:18:47,274 --> 00:18:50,342
a CLO, I'm getting the, and it 
wasn't until I picked the pace 

368
00:18:50,342 --> 00:18:52,019
up. 
I'm like, oh, now I'm getting 

369
00:18:52,019 --> 00:18:55,660
that. that midfoot heel is where
you really get that bounce and 

370
00:18:55,660 --> 00:18:57,675
roll through. 
I'm like, now I understand what 

371
00:18:57,675 --> 00:18:59,772
you're doing. 
But then it gets to the point of

372
00:18:59,772 --> 00:19:01,585
it helps. 
I feel like diversified line 

373
00:19:01,585 --> 00:19:04,676
where I think previously there 
was something like, oh, you can 

374
00:19:04,676 --> 00:19:07,767
use this super shoe for like 
anything, whereas now it's more 

375
00:19:07,767 --> 00:19:10,858
along the lines of, hey, like, 
this is a specific tool. 

376
00:19:10,859 --> 00:19:12,598
This is the ray station shoe, 
right? 

377
00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:15,615
We have other things in the 
line, if you want to use this 

378
00:19:15,615 --> 00:19:18,399
for other things, but like kind 
of specialists we talk about in 

379
00:19:18,399 --> 00:19:19,558
like motor control, bomb 
mechanics. 

380
00:19:19,559 --> 00:19:21,419
And like training is like 
specificity of training. 

381
00:19:21,420 --> 00:19:23,219
You want to go fast? 
This is the fast product. 

382
00:19:23,220 --> 00:19:26,960
There's other products that can 
support this, but it comes alive

383
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,019
most when you really start 
putting force through this 

384
00:19:30,019 --> 00:19:32,091
product. 
And it's like, oh, Hokay, now I 

385
00:19:32,091 --> 00:19:33,719
see. 
Yeah, I agree. 

386
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,991
And there's so much personal 
preference embedded in that as 

387
00:19:36,991 --> 00:19:39,083
well. 
When we even talk to our 

388
00:19:39,083 --> 00:19:42,317
athletes, I mean, we just had a 
fantastic athletes summit here 

389
00:19:42,317 --> 00:19:45,845
in Portland last month where we 
had the opportunity to sit with 

390
00:19:45,845 --> 00:19:48,782
our global roster of road 
athletes and really pick their 

391
00:19:48,782 --> 00:19:51,419
brains and dive into the next 
generation of product. 

392
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:55,380
And I think when you really hear
from athletes, the range of 

393
00:19:55,380 --> 00:19:58,350
preference and what actually 
makes you feel fast and 

394
00:19:58,350 --> 00:20:00,384
comfortable. 
There's such a psychological 

395
00:20:00,384 --> 00:20:05,493
element to that as well, that I 
do think still justifies having 

396
00:20:05,493 --> 00:20:09,666
multiple solutions in the line. 
But to your point, you have to 

397
00:20:09,666 --> 00:20:12,878
be really specific with what the
intended use and experience is 

398
00:20:12,878 --> 00:20:17,395
for each one of those. 
So, For us, that comes to life 

399
00:20:17,395 --> 00:20:21,145
through the CLOX13.0, right? 
It should feel a little bit 

400
00:20:21,145 --> 00:20:23,573
wilder. 
It should feel, uh, a little bit

401
00:20:23,573 --> 00:20:26,862
more lively, and that should 
truly feel like the thing you 

402
00:20:26,862 --> 00:20:30,744
want to put on if you are that 
like Formula One mindset racer 

403
00:20:30,744 --> 00:20:34,618
of just go fast and hold on for 
dear life kind of situation. 

404
00:20:34,619 --> 00:20:39,162
versus the racer who has, I 
think, a little bit more of a 

405
00:20:39,162 --> 00:20:40,558
controlled mentality and 
approach. 

406
00:20:40,559 --> 00:20:43,826
If you want to feel a little bit
more like proprioceptive 

407
00:20:43,826 --> 00:20:47,093
engagement with the ground, or 
you want to have more stability 

408
00:20:47,093 --> 00:20:50,351
throughout, and feel like you 
are more, um, in control over 

409
00:20:50,351 --> 00:20:52,800
the entire system. 
That's where something like the 

410
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,287
Rocket X 3 relation lines. 
So for us to make sure that the 

411
00:20:57,287 --> 00:21:00,574
athlete knows that those 2 
different shoes, they're both 

412
00:21:00,574 --> 00:21:04,626
equipped to go incredibly fast. 
I mean, we just said an athlete,

413
00:21:04,626 --> 00:21:08,759
Hubden Samuel run 59 and change 
in the Rocket X 3 in Houston. 

414
00:21:08,759 --> 00:21:12,539
But to be able to also have the 
shoe that kind of reflects what 

415
00:21:12,539 --> 00:21:15,239
makes you feel confident, I 
think is really, really crucial.

416
00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,663
Yep. 
Total side note, by the way, 

417
00:21:17,663 --> 00:21:20,393
please, please, please keep up 
the stability component of the 

418
00:21:20,393 --> 00:21:21,834
Rocket X3. 
It is... 

419
00:21:21,834 --> 00:21:27,195
Thus far of 2026, maybe the only
stable neutral racer super shoe 

420
00:21:27,195 --> 00:21:29,879
left on the market. 
So please, please. 

421
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,048
I know version you're working on
version 4 and probably thinking 

422
00:21:32,048 --> 00:21:33,791
about version five. 
Please don't, don't, please 

423
00:21:33,791 --> 00:21:37,199
stop. 
It's top of mind for us. 

424
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,479
So keep soundly. 
That's good. 

425
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,622
That's great. 
Because every year I do the like

426
00:21:41,622 --> 00:21:44,234
best stable neutral racers and 
I'm sitting like, I think I 

427
00:21:44,234 --> 00:21:47,098
might have one this year. 
Really short video. 

428
00:21:47,099 --> 00:21:49,558
But so following up on what I 
was talking about. 

429
00:21:49,559 --> 00:21:52,779
I'm really curious because I 
want to check myself on 

430
00:21:52,779 --> 00:21:54,709
something. 
We frequently talk about these 

431
00:21:54,709 --> 00:21:57,598
guidance lines, these essential 
groups that you through here. 

432
00:21:57,599 --> 00:22:00,371
And while there isn't really any
research on this, the theory 

433
00:22:00,371 --> 00:22:03,386
that we've had is going, yes, 
your body's going to go through 

434
00:22:03,386 --> 00:22:05,566
the passably resistance. 
So you have the central groove, 

435
00:22:05,566 --> 00:22:08,410
you're more likely to stay, and 
we've also kind of like called 

436
00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:10,337
the like guidance lines. 
We've heard some people call it 

437
00:22:10,337 --> 00:22:11,655
this. 
And we've seen some companies 

438
00:22:11,655 --> 00:22:14,189
experiment where they'll have, 
like, ones that kind of start on

439
00:22:14,189 --> 00:22:16,719
the lateral aspect that some 
stability shoes will kind of try

440
00:22:16,719 --> 00:22:19,304
to guide people laterally. 
Have you found that that is 

441
00:22:19,304 --> 00:22:22,351
actually what that does or is 
there a very different purpose 

442
00:22:22,351 --> 00:22:24,797
for these central grooves? 
Are we misunderstanding that or 

443
00:22:24,797 --> 00:22:28,067
is that exactly what this is? 
No, I don't think you're 

444
00:22:28,067 --> 00:22:30,778
misunderstanding that at all. 
And it's interesting. 

445
00:22:30,779 --> 00:22:33,943
We actually have some history 
here in our speedy training 

446
00:22:33,943 --> 00:22:36,555
space. 
So if you look at the geometry 

447
00:22:36,555 --> 00:22:40,487
of shoes like the mock, uh, 
we've actually done this kind of

448
00:22:40,487 --> 00:22:43,430
like centralized groove in a 
lower profile, speed focused 

449
00:22:43,430 --> 00:22:45,719
daily training shoe uh, in the 
past. 

450
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,059
And I think there's just 
something about, um, the 

451
00:22:49,059 --> 00:22:52,759
transition that it provides, 
there's also like a little bit 

452
00:22:52,759 --> 00:22:56,089
of mechanical deformation that 
happens along the path of 

453
00:22:56,089 --> 00:22:58,679
pressure that just feels really 
intuitive underfoot. 

454
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,370
Um, one of the things we've kind
of noticed as we take that logic

455
00:23:03,370 --> 00:23:06,719
and apply it to taller stackites
and more complex systems. 

456
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:11,724
There is the little bit of the 
perception of allowing the plate

457
00:23:11,724 --> 00:23:14,639
to also move more mechanically 
as well. 

458
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,239
We've learned that a little bit 
and choose like the skyward X. 

459
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,991
We're having a lot of really 
open geometries under the plate 

460
00:23:21,991 --> 00:23:25,399
just allows a little bit more 
displacement of the entire 

461
00:23:25,399 --> 00:23:28,043
system. 
So for us, I think that 

462
00:23:28,043 --> 00:23:32,256
transition to apply that same 
logic to the CLX13.0 is pretty 

463
00:23:32,256 --> 00:23:35,085
natural. 
Um, there's also just something 

464
00:23:35,085 --> 00:23:39,479
really interesting about that 
idea of building a perimeter. 

465
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:43,330
that's gonna, again, we keep 
talking about like control and 

466
00:23:43,330 --> 00:23:45,929
containment, right? 
But that idea of that perimeter 

467
00:23:45,929 --> 00:23:49,894
of the system, uh, is going to 
allow us to reduce weight, kind 

468
00:23:49,894 --> 00:23:54,469
of guide the path of motion, um,
but also do so in a way that 

469
00:23:54,469 --> 00:23:57,822
allows us to do some additional 
things with plate geometries and

470
00:23:57,822 --> 00:24:01,475
cutouts to reduce weight. 
So I think it's connected to a 

471
00:24:01,475 --> 00:24:04,607
couple different potential 
benefits, but for us, it's felt 

472
00:24:04,607 --> 00:24:07,739
like a really natural 
progression going into the 3.0. 

473
00:24:07,740 --> 00:24:10,558
Yeah, it makes total, the weight
reduction makes total sense. 

474
00:24:10,559 --> 00:24:13,907
What you mentioned that I hadn't
thought about is that because 

475
00:24:13,907 --> 00:24:16,947
there's less material, because 
the more if you just embed 

476
00:24:16,947 --> 00:24:19,379
material around any kind of 
bending agents, right? 

477
00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:22,392
It reduces the amount of there's
more resistance to any kind of 

478
00:24:22,392 --> 00:24:25,399
deformation or moment, whereas 
if you can take some of it out, 

479
00:24:25,399 --> 00:24:28,649
that's going to be able to bend 
a little bit more and you're 

480
00:24:28,649 --> 00:24:31,399
going to get a little bit more 
geometrically of what you're 

481
00:24:31,399 --> 00:24:33,778
trying to hope for. 
That makes sense. 

482
00:24:33,779 --> 00:24:37,116
I hadn't thought about that. 
When you even just think of a 

483
00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:40,259
shoe manufacturing, right? 
When you have layers and layers.

484
00:24:40,259 --> 00:24:42,959
It's like a peanut butter and 
jelly sandwich, right? 

485
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,646
You going to have like a layer 
of jelly that's kind of holding 

486
00:24:45,646 --> 00:24:48,118
everything together in the case 
of a lot of shoes, it's glue. 

487
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,883
So you also have these different
ingredients and elements that 

488
00:24:51,883 --> 00:24:56,395
are just a basic part of shoe 
construction that can affect the

489
00:24:56,395 --> 00:24:59,818
output of that system. 
So I think by removing a layer. 

490
00:24:59,819 --> 00:25:04,453
Um, you can get to kind of like 
the ooey gooey core of what 

491
00:25:04,453 --> 00:25:07,432
makes something work in a 
totally different way that 

492
00:25:07,432 --> 00:25:10,739
provides a really fun kind of, 
um, yeah, undisrupted, under 

493
00:25:10,739 --> 00:25:13,626
physical experience. 
You may not be able to answer 

494
00:25:13,626 --> 00:25:16,488
this question because this may 
be like proprietary information,

495
00:25:16,488 --> 00:25:20,304
but if you change that groove, 
like change the, like, let's say

496
00:25:20,304 --> 00:25:24,120
you put it more medial or more 
lateral, do people tend to 

497
00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:27,298
actually go that direction or is
it really person dependent? 

498
00:25:27,299 --> 00:25:30,236
Like, does it actually help 
guide people or is it really 

499
00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:33,173
more about allowing the plate to
deform the weight reduction or 

500
00:25:33,173 --> 00:25:35,038
is it just a combination of 
everything? 

501
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:37,558
Yeah, that's a that's a great 
question. 

502
00:25:37,559 --> 00:25:40,318
I don't know if I have a 
specific answer to that. 

503
00:25:40,319 --> 00:25:44,547
I think the general thinking on 
this yellow, um, with that idea 

504
00:25:44,547 --> 00:25:48,771
of containment in mind was we 
didn't want to get too mediately

505
00:25:48,771 --> 00:25:52,995
biased or too laterally biased 
with kind of those walls that we

506
00:25:52,995 --> 00:25:55,364
were building. 
So it just naturally kind of 

507
00:25:55,364 --> 00:25:58,965
zoned itself to a little bit 
more of a central kind of path 

508
00:25:58,965 --> 00:26:00,959
of motion. 
Yeah, that makes sense. 

509
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,253
That has been the general answer
I've gotten from a lot of 

510
00:26:03,253 --> 00:26:05,354
different people in the industry
going, hey, I feel like we're 

511
00:26:05,354 --> 00:26:07,739
all talking about this. 
Has anybody actually looked at, 

512
00:26:07,739 --> 00:26:11,951
and most of the time people are 
like, no, I'm like, wait, oh, 

513
00:26:11,951 --> 00:26:13,139
Hokay, interesting. 
Nobody knows. 

514
00:26:13,140 --> 00:26:14,812
Hokay. 
That's why I'm like, I want to 

515
00:26:14,812 --> 00:26:17,548
be careful with the things I say
because I want to be like, I 

516
00:26:17,548 --> 00:26:19,693
keep talking about this and I'm 
going, is there any evidence 

517
00:26:19,693 --> 00:26:22,228
behind what I'm saying or I'm 
just like, am I pulling that out

518
00:26:22,228 --> 00:26:25,078
of nowhere? 
That, I mean, that makes sense. 

519
00:26:25,079 --> 00:26:26,818
It just kind of seems like it's 
naturally happening. 

520
00:26:26,819 --> 00:26:30,898
Speaking of the plate, though. 
I know I was looking at the tech

521
00:26:30,898 --> 00:26:34,402
sheet, but even before that, it 
feels like the plate has changed

522
00:26:34,402 --> 00:26:36,538
quite a bit. 
I'm really curious. 

523
00:26:36,539 --> 00:26:39,905
And the way I'm actually 
experiencing it doesn't look 

524
00:26:39,905 --> 00:26:42,859
like how it's designed. 
So can I, can I, before you 

525
00:26:42,859 --> 00:26:44,939
explain that, can I share with 
you what I'm feeling? 

526
00:26:44,940 --> 00:26:48,085
Hokay. 
So it feels like the, so yeah, 

527
00:26:48,085 --> 00:26:50,578
so obviously I could, the, she 
was less biased. 

528
00:26:50,579 --> 00:26:52,318
It's still not a stability shoe,
right? 

529
00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:55,558
where the rocket X would be a 
more stable controlled lock. 

530
00:26:55,559 --> 00:26:57,538
This is your like, hey, want to 
go fast, feel crazy. 

531
00:26:57,539 --> 00:26:59,339
Hold on. 
That is a great way of putting 

532
00:26:59,339 --> 00:27:01,469
that. 
Um, people with like stability 

533
00:27:01,469 --> 00:27:04,139
needs. this may the rocket 
extreme may be a better option. 

534
00:27:04,140 --> 00:27:08,127
However, what I have noticed is 
the forefoot feels a lot more 

535
00:27:08,127 --> 00:27:09,591
simple. 
It almost feels like I'm 

536
00:27:09,591 --> 00:27:11,399
sitting, my foot is sitting in a
spoon. 

537
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,982
And that's not what it looks 
like on the tech sheet, but is 

538
00:27:15,982 --> 00:27:19,854
there any reason why is that 
what was intended because it 

539
00:27:19,854 --> 00:27:22,318
feels very stable and just super
rocker? 

540
00:27:22,319 --> 00:27:26,519
landing farther forwards hasn't 
been as kind of like snappy. 

541
00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:28,961
It's like really loading that 
heel and rolling through it, but

542
00:27:28,961 --> 00:27:31,847
it still feels like my foot's 
kind of almost in a spoon with 

543
00:27:31,847 --> 00:27:34,740
stuff coming on the red edge. 
Is that something intended or am

544
00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:37,709
I just nuts? 
Yeah, I think there's you're 

545
00:27:37,709 --> 00:27:41,910
spot on with something here. 
To me, when we talk about like 

546
00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:45,930
control at the end of the race. 
I am truly thinking of the 

547
00:27:45,930 --> 00:27:49,276
experience we just had in 
October watching Alex Masai at 

548
00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:52,239
Chicago Marathon, right? 
Like that notion of, What do you

549
00:27:52,239 --> 00:27:56,159
actually need to feel, to be 
able to pick it up in the last 

550
00:27:56,159 --> 00:27:59,799
couple K when you're fatigued? 
And I do think a lot of that 

551
00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:03,159
sensation does come down to like
your ability to control toe off 

552
00:28:03,159 --> 00:28:06,239
when you're fatigued and feel 
like you can really move quickly

553
00:28:06,239 --> 00:28:07,919
through the transition of the 
shoe. 

554
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,971
So for us, the plate shape, but 
then also kind of how we've 

555
00:28:11,971 --> 00:28:14,459
stacked and loaded the PIVA in 
the forfeit. 

556
00:28:14,460 --> 00:28:18,882
I think all come together in a 
really interesting and slightly 

557
00:28:18,882 --> 00:28:23,304
different way in the 3.0 
compared to the 2.0 with with 

558
00:28:23,304 --> 00:28:27,719
the goal, again, of that like 
late stage control in mind. 

559
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,854
Um, when I think of the big 
changes that we made, it's it's 

560
00:28:31,854 --> 00:28:34,078
pretty obvious a couple of them,
right? 

561
00:28:34,079 --> 00:28:39,058
So we had the winged carbon 
fiber plate on the 2.0 where we 

562
00:28:39,058 --> 00:28:42,879
were aiming again, like 
mitigating some of that kind of 

563
00:28:42,879 --> 00:28:46,317
like concern about stability 
with the medial cutout by 

564
00:28:46,317 --> 00:28:49,755
extending the plate geometry, 
and then some of that 

565
00:28:49,755 --> 00:28:54,054
containment laterally. 
Once we kind of landed on that 

566
00:28:54,054 --> 00:28:58,441
updated geometry in the 3.0. 
We kind of realized we now have 

567
00:28:58,441 --> 00:29:01,899
all this real estate that we can
use to really look at carving 

568
00:29:01,899 --> 00:29:04,019
out the plate in a more dynamic 
way. 

569
00:29:04,019 --> 00:29:07,439
So when you actually look at the
shape of the plate. 

570
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,364
You'll kind of notice. 
Yeah, you'll kind of notice we 

571
00:29:11,364 --> 00:29:13,558
were really able to maintain the
perimeter. 

572
00:29:13,559 --> 00:29:15,778
So again, that like idea of 
control. 

573
00:29:15,779 --> 00:29:18,779
So you're kind of partnering 
what we're doing from a 

574
00:29:18,779 --> 00:29:21,779
perimeter perspective with your 
dual stack of Piva, with the 

575
00:29:21,779 --> 00:29:24,779
control of the plate, you're 
still maintaining under the met 

576
00:29:24,779 --> 00:29:28,079
heads, a really nice kind of 
substantial amount of plate and 

577
00:29:28,079 --> 00:29:31,379
control, but then finding those 
other areas to carve out and 

578
00:29:31,379 --> 00:29:34,005
reduce weight. 
We also don't need those 

579
00:29:34,005 --> 00:29:36,335
winglets anymore, right? 
We're getting plenty of control 

580
00:29:36,335 --> 00:29:38,338
from the rest of the geometry in
the system. 

581
00:29:38,339 --> 00:29:42,398
So with this, um, it was pretty 
interesting because we found 

582
00:29:42,398 --> 00:29:45,719
that we were actually getting, 
um, really great propulsion 

583
00:29:45,719 --> 00:29:48,298
scores, really great perception 
from our athletes. 

584
00:29:48,299 --> 00:29:51,298
And we reduced a significant 
amount of weight. 

585
00:29:51,299 --> 00:29:56,387
So I think in the plate alone. 
We lost about 8 grams versus 

586
00:29:56,387 --> 00:30:00,298
professor, which is substantial.
That's quite a bit. 

587
00:30:00,299 --> 00:30:02,699
That is awesome. 
That's very cool. 

588
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:05,690
I've been hearing about this, 
but I think this is one of the 

589
00:30:05,690 --> 00:30:07,990
1st times I've actually seen 
this where people are starting 

590
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:10,515
to carve the plates out going, 
yeah, we've got this stiffness 

591
00:30:10,515 --> 00:30:12,118
thing, but we can still maintain
structure. 

592
00:30:12,119 --> 00:30:15,892
And we can actually even change 
how, like, even direct movement 

593
00:30:15,892 --> 00:30:18,198
by doing cutouts. 
Like, you know, I'm curious to 

594
00:30:18,198 --> 00:30:20,754
know because at the fourth, if 
you could hold up the plate 

595
00:30:20,754 --> 00:30:23,126
again, please. 
So the reason I'm saying this is

596
00:30:23,126 --> 00:30:26,452
because this is like Orthotics 
101 of how you develop some of 

597
00:30:26,452 --> 00:30:29,776
this stuff where you have that 4
foot angulation where because of

598
00:30:29,776 --> 00:30:32,269
its the angled way it's 
occurring, you naturally looks 

599
00:30:32,269 --> 00:30:35,593
like you're going to get a 
little bit more of a supination 

600
00:30:35,593 --> 00:30:38,640
moment off the forefoot, which 
is great because, like you were 

601
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,687
talking about, you, during toe 
off, it's so important for you 

602
00:30:41,687 --> 00:30:44,734
to actually get back into 
supination if you want to lock 

603
00:30:44,734 --> 00:30:48,058
the foot up and create a rigid 
platform to get off of. 

604
00:30:48,059 --> 00:30:50,819
So it's funny that I'm looking 
at this going, I also teach 

605
00:30:50,819 --> 00:30:53,339
prosthetics orthotics and gate 
at George Fox or the PT students

606
00:30:53,339 --> 00:30:55,629
and I'm going, oh, like I 
literally just talked about 

607
00:30:55,629 --> 00:30:58,078
that. 
That's cool. 

608
00:30:58,079 --> 00:31:00,952
It's cool to be like, oh, it's 
not just like in our thought, 

609
00:31:00,952 --> 00:31:03,383
like plate is all these like 
concepts of going, you can 

610
00:31:03,383 --> 00:31:05,372
totally direct motion. 
And that really makes sense with

611
00:31:05,372 --> 00:31:08,245
going, hey, the whole point, and
this is why both from a fuller 

612
00:31:08,245 --> 00:31:10,455
perspective as well is one of 
the really important things 

613
00:31:10,455 --> 00:31:12,766
people can work on. 
If they want to improve speed, 

614
00:31:12,766 --> 00:31:14,662
especially when they're 
fatigued, is some of that 

615
00:31:14,662 --> 00:31:16,795
natural football mechanics 
going, yeah, you got to proneate

616
00:31:16,795 --> 00:31:19,876
to get things to get flexible so
you can shock absorb, but you 

617
00:31:19,876 --> 00:31:23,588
got to lock that back up. 
If you actually want to push off

618
00:31:23,588 --> 00:31:25,877
and that's really challenging 
when you're fatiguing 

619
00:31:25,877 --> 00:31:27,838
significantly during later stage
of race. 

620
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:31,824
So that's very cool to see. 
So, yeah, I'm curious why I'm 

621
00:31:31,824 --> 00:31:35,112
trying to figure out why I feel 
like the stable spoon design, 

622
00:31:35,112 --> 00:31:38,400
but that might be just the way, 
again, you're talking about that

623
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:40,858
the cutouts are allowing the 
plate to actually deform. 

624
00:31:40,859 --> 00:31:42,179
But yeah, so I didn't mean 
interrupt you. 

625
00:31:42,180 --> 00:31:45,667
No, I think it's also 
interesting that when we look at

626
00:31:45,667 --> 00:31:47,879
the stacks of foam in the 
forefoot. 

627
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,464
The balance of kind of our 
bottom layer of foam to top 

628
00:31:52,464 --> 00:31:56,278
layer of foam also does feel 
nuanced versus the predecessors.

629
00:31:56,279 --> 00:31:59,288
So when I look at kind of the 
bottom layer of that softer 

630
00:31:59,288 --> 00:32:01,679
Piba. 
It's actually a lot thinner in 

631
00:32:01,679 --> 00:32:04,380
the forefight. 
So it's it's getting down there 

632
00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:06,975
in terms of thickness. 
So what you're actually really 

633
00:32:06,975 --> 00:32:09,772
feeling a lot of, I think, from 
a bottom loaded perspective 

634
00:32:09,772 --> 00:32:12,058
that's kind of contributing to 
that sensation of control. 

635
00:32:12,059 --> 00:32:15,519
You're feeling out soul, which 
is containing from the bottom 

636
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:19,318
up, you're feeling plate, which 
is containing from the top down.

637
00:32:19,319 --> 00:32:22,708
And then you have this bigger 
kind of framed core of that 

638
00:32:22,708 --> 00:32:25,595
really responsive foam on top. 
So there's something about 

639
00:32:25,595 --> 00:32:30,014
having that engagement from the 
bottom up that I am convinced is

640
00:32:30,014 --> 00:32:34,430
kind of like tricking the brain 
into that notion of control and 

641
00:32:34,430 --> 00:32:36,533
support. 
And something about it, um, you 

642
00:32:36,533 --> 00:32:39,419
know, when we started doing all 
this testing with athletes. 

643
00:32:39,420 --> 00:32:42,606
Just that slight rebalance and 
those slight changes in 

644
00:32:42,606 --> 00:32:46,146
geometry, I think combined with 
those little tweaks to the 

645
00:32:46,146 --> 00:32:49,686
rocker profile has just really 
changed the perception of what 

646
00:32:49,686 --> 00:32:54,281
they feel like the shoe can do 
for them later in the race, 

647
00:32:54,281 --> 00:32:56,399
which was massive learning for 
us. 

648
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,870
That makes sense. 
Now, confirming you said this, 

649
00:32:58,870 --> 00:33:01,792
but I just want to double check.
You're still you're still using 

650
00:33:01,792 --> 00:33:04,819
a PBA foam. 
This is this is not like on the 

651
00:33:04,819 --> 00:33:06,657
global. 
I know that that's such a 

652
00:33:06,657 --> 00:33:09,506
relative term because people say
one, like, EVA people are like, 

653
00:33:09,506 --> 00:33:12,263
I'm going to assume everything 
is the same. like, no, there's 

654
00:33:12,263 --> 00:33:14,999
like a 1000000000 ways to change
this even with the same phone. 

655
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,459
So it's still relatively 
similar. 

656
00:33:17,460 --> 00:33:22,458
It's still the a Piba foam, but 
what you really did with it was 

657
00:33:22,458 --> 00:33:24,598
change derometer of the 2 
layers. 

658
00:33:24,599 --> 00:33:27,683
But also, again, a lot of these 
sensations that are going to 

659
00:33:27,683 --> 00:33:29,219
happen isn't just the foam 
itself. 

660
00:33:29,220 --> 00:33:32,675
It's the geometry, the cutouts, 
everything, how things deform 

661
00:33:32,675 --> 00:33:34,650
underfoot. 
So this is my brain is going, 

662
00:33:34,650 --> 00:33:37,182
oh, I'd love to keep this 
simple. be like, oh, it's just 

663
00:33:37,182 --> 00:33:39,911
some phone. 
No, it's just it's the result of

664
00:33:39,911 --> 00:33:43,009
this multifactorial equation. 
But I'm going to try to ask this

665
00:33:43,009 --> 00:33:45,358
question because this has been 
rolling around my brain. 

666
00:33:45,359 --> 00:33:48,574
You mentioned that you went from
having kind of a greater 

667
00:33:48,574 --> 00:33:51,786
difference between the top and 
the bottom layer in terms of 

668
00:33:51,786 --> 00:33:54,239
derometer. 
Now it's more similar, correct? 

669
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,058
Yeah, same. 
I don't, oh, it's the same. 

670
00:33:57,059 --> 00:33:59,798
Hokay, great. 
So I don't know how to ask this,

671
00:33:59,798 --> 00:34:02,399
but I've been really curious, 
like, why the change. 

672
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,442
Some people are doing a lot of 
like, you know, firmer or 

673
00:34:06,442 --> 00:34:08,398
softer. doing different 
derometers. 

674
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,297
Why the change to doing 2 
different gerometer layers? 

675
00:34:12,300 --> 00:34:16,071
Like what exactly does that do? 
I'm not trying to ask this 

676
00:34:16,071 --> 00:34:17,603
question. 
But then now you guys, now I'm 

677
00:34:17,603 --> 00:34:20,097
hearing, and you're not the only
one a lot of people are going 

678
00:34:20,097 --> 00:34:22,197
back to going, actually we're 
going to keep it the same. 

679
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,838
What was the original thinking 
of keeping things different? 

680
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,984
I'm sure it depends on the shoe,
but... 

681
00:34:27,984 --> 00:34:31,914
It depends on the shoe, and 
historically, looking back, Hoka

682
00:34:31,914 --> 00:34:36,234
has actually had quite a few 
styles where we've relied on 

683
00:34:36,234 --> 00:34:39,762
different density and different 
drometer layers to provide a 

684
00:34:39,762 --> 00:34:42,898
little bit of an interesting 
like sandwich experience. 

685
00:34:42,900 --> 00:34:47,346
One of the really easy to relate
to analogies is like picking the

686
00:34:47,346 --> 00:34:49,737
perfect bed and mattress set up,
right? 

687
00:34:49,739 --> 00:34:53,047
I think the old school way of 
thinking was everyone had to 

688
00:34:53,047 --> 00:34:55,797
have like a pillow top mattress 
with a box spring. 

689
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,716
And now you're seeing so many 
more interesting advancements 

690
00:34:58,716 --> 00:35:02,915
come out and this is where my 
crazy analogy is going to take 

691
00:35:02,915 --> 00:35:04,603
me. 
Different analogy or different 

692
00:35:04,603 --> 00:35:07,672
advancements in technology 
coming out where to get that 

693
00:35:07,672 --> 00:35:11,418
same kind of softness and 
experience and comfort out of a 

694
00:35:11,418 --> 00:35:14,818
mattress, a lot of companies 
aren't even making box springs. 

695
00:35:14,820 --> 00:35:19,158
anymore, right? 
You're buying a better frame or 

696
00:35:19,158 --> 00:35:21,118
the mattresses themselves have 
improved. 

697
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:25,497
So, I think we're learning so 
much about how these new 

698
00:35:25,497 --> 00:35:28,678
compounds interact as a part of 
a system. 

699
00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:31,938
And it's just busting some of 
the old assumptions and myths 

700
00:35:31,938 --> 00:35:35,490
that we used to have. 
As an industry about how they 

701
00:35:35,490 --> 00:35:38,779
worked together. 
There's also then I think that 

702
00:35:38,779 --> 00:35:42,089
experiential component, right? 
That is so important, that 

703
00:35:42,089 --> 00:35:46,107
sometimes to actually feel a 
difference in a system, you 

704
00:35:46,107 --> 00:35:49,716
don't necessarily have to have 
different things stacked up 

705
00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:53,669
within it. 
An example I would use there is 

706
00:35:53,669 --> 00:35:58,498
CLO versus a rocket, right? 
The rocket is using PVA as well.

707
00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:04,079
And the rocket. 3, was using the
same combination of Peabith 

708
00:36:04,079 --> 00:36:08,098
foams as the CLOX12.0. 
Completely different feels. 

709
00:36:08,099 --> 00:36:12,987
So, I think, again, come back to
that idea of things being like 

710
00:36:12,987 --> 00:36:16,109
really multifactorial. 
The gerometer and makeup of the 

711
00:36:16,109 --> 00:36:20,846
foam alone is like one part, 
it's one small part of an 

712
00:36:20,846 --> 00:36:23,998
equation that actually goes into
that overall experience. 

713
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,113
And I'm sure also that varies 
depending on each person where 

714
00:36:27,113 --> 00:36:30,220
they have different experiences.
Like, for me, it was crazy, but 

715
00:36:30,220 --> 00:36:33,322
like, I just kind of wonder 
about that, kind of confirmed 

716
00:36:33,322 --> 00:36:36,142
when you said, yeah, actually, 
we're using the same software 

717
00:36:36,142 --> 00:36:39,244
geometer, where it just felt 
like with this shoe, the shoe 

718
00:36:39,244 --> 00:36:42,346
matches together, like when I 
land on that thing, the whole 

719
00:36:42,346 --> 00:36:44,884
thing compresses this whole 
thing rebounds, whereas I found 

720
00:36:44,884 --> 00:36:48,550
that for me personally, when I 
have, I guess, I want to be 

721
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:51,565
careful using this phrase. 
Technically, it's calling it 

722
00:36:51,565 --> 00:36:54,225
dual density, right? 
Is that my, because I'm 

723
00:36:54,225 --> 00:36:57,206
thinking, I'm used to that being
with medial posts and stuff like

724
00:36:57,206 --> 00:36:59,639
that in my posting. 
I'm like, hesit to use that 

725
00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:01,639
phrase. 
But when you start getting the 

726
00:37:01,639 --> 00:37:04,739
multiple densities there. 
I've just found like I can't get

727
00:37:04,739 --> 00:37:06,958
as much of that responsive 
bounce out. 

728
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,474
It doesn't mean it's not fast. 
It just, it's usually me going 

729
00:37:09,474 --> 00:37:12,702
to become a more rolling rocker 
shoe rather than getting a lot 

730
00:37:12,702 --> 00:37:15,390
more compression and resiliency 
out of the material when things 

731
00:37:15,390 --> 00:37:16,919
match. 
And I didn't know if that was 

732
00:37:16,919 --> 00:37:18,922
just me. 
And I was being crazy, but I 

733
00:37:18,922 --> 00:37:21,496
feel like what you're talking 
about going, oh, when you have 

734
00:37:21,496 --> 00:37:24,304
the same density, it feels like 
they work together a lot more 

735
00:37:24,304 --> 00:37:26,878
versus there may be different 
reasons to go, hey, when you 

736
00:37:26,878 --> 00:37:28,984
have 2 different ones, maybe 
it's a different sensation, 

737
00:37:28,984 --> 00:37:30,478
right? 
Maybe there's more control. 

738
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,818
Maybe you're not looking for the
bounciest, craziest ride. 

739
00:37:32,820 --> 00:37:35,518
Is that a correct understanding?
Yeah, it is. 

740
00:37:35,519 --> 00:37:39,692
And I think it goes back to what
I mentioned earlier when we 

741
00:37:39,692 --> 00:37:42,898
started that kind of testing 
process and iteration based on 

742
00:37:42,898 --> 00:37:45,888
this yellow X12.0. 
I think we wanted to just 

743
00:37:45,888 --> 00:37:48,592
challenge that, uh, that 
assumption and that preconceived

744
00:37:48,592 --> 00:37:52,648
notion that you had to have the 
the firmer, harder material on 

745
00:37:52,648 --> 00:37:56,698
the bottom and that that is 
always kind of the right setup. 

746
00:37:56,699 --> 00:38:00,298
I think we've done a lot over 
the last couple seasons. 

747
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:02,609
It's kind of flipped that 
paradigm on its head a little 

748
00:38:02,609 --> 00:38:07,438
bit. that's kind of opened our 
willingness to explore and try. 

749
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,518
A great example of that is 
actually the Mafate vibe, right?

750
00:38:11,519 --> 00:38:15,299
It's a trail running shoe where 
we actually did a bottom loaded,

751
00:38:15,299 --> 00:38:18,449
softer form, foam in the 
forefoot to allow for more 

752
00:38:18,449 --> 00:38:20,338
deformation around terrain on 
the trails. 

753
00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:23,484
And I think subconsciously as a 
team, we all started to just 

754
00:38:23,484 --> 00:38:26,098
pick up on like, there could be 
something here, right? 

755
00:38:26,099 --> 00:38:29,735
In terms of not only considering
the effect of the system from 

756
00:38:29,735 --> 00:38:32,158
the top down, but also the 
bottom up. 

757
00:38:32,159 --> 00:38:36,718
And I think that softer loaded 
bottom compound. 

758
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,895
Um, again, like you mentioned 
earlier, you're getting 

759
00:38:39,895 --> 00:38:43,819
something different out of it. 
And when we tested it and it 

760
00:38:43,819 --> 00:38:46,312
clicked and it was confirmed 
with mechanical testing and 

761
00:38:46,312 --> 00:38:49,082
perception testing, it was yeah,
absolutely a no-brainer for us 

762
00:38:49,082 --> 00:38:51,298
to bring that to life in this 
one. 

763
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,523
That awesome. 
I can't ignore the upper because

764
00:38:54,523 --> 00:38:56,158
that was also really 
interesting. 

765
00:38:56,159 --> 00:38:58,559
I know we oftentimes get focused
on the soul, the geometry and 

766
00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:00,573
stuff like that. 
There's also, and you know this 

767
00:39:00,573 --> 00:39:03,158
better than I do, that there's 
interesting ways that even the 

768
00:39:03,158 --> 00:39:05,038
fit can actually affect how the 
shoe rides. 

769
00:39:05,039 --> 00:39:09,359
So big pitcher, what were you 
all looking for with this upper 

770
00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:12,958
because there are so many more 
asymmetries than prior versions.

771
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,989
So I'm like really curious about
what were you going for in terms

772
00:39:15,989 --> 00:39:18,728
of, it's incredibly light. 
I feel like you guys cut a ton 

773
00:39:18,728 --> 00:39:20,995
of weight off of it. 
The fit definitely changed where

774
00:39:20,995 --> 00:39:24,390
it was a lot more snug where it 
was like, I was like, oh, this 

775
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:27,102
feels like my back when I had 
Achilles tendon stiffness to do 

776
00:39:27,102 --> 00:39:30,040
a lot more track races and put 
on track spikes, like this feels

777
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,504
more like that. 
So what were you going for with 

778
00:39:32,504 --> 00:39:33,788
this? 
I'm really curious because it's 

779
00:39:33,788 --> 00:39:35,922
very different. 
Yeah, breathability, weight 

780
00:39:35,922 --> 00:39:40,019
reduction and then containment. 
I think that idea of like 

781
00:39:40,019 --> 00:39:42,703
control and containment. 
If you're going to build that 

782
00:39:42,703 --> 00:39:45,970
into the tooling of the shoe, 
you're probably doing a little 

783
00:39:45,970 --> 00:39:50,084
bit of a disservice. to not 
carry some of that kind of like 

784
00:39:50,084 --> 00:39:52,678
proprioceptive nod to control 
into the upper excel. 

785
00:39:52,679 --> 00:39:55,836
So we wanted to make sure that 
from a material choice 

786
00:39:55,836 --> 00:39:59,274
perspective that over the course
of a marathon over the course of

787
00:39:59,274 --> 00:40:02,220
a marathon training cycle. 
We had a material that had 

788
00:40:02,220 --> 00:40:05,310
enough structure. that it wasn't
going to bag out with time, that

789
00:40:05,310 --> 00:40:08,049
it wasn't going to deform, that 
you were going to lose 

790
00:40:08,049 --> 00:40:10,539
everything that was keeping your
foot on that platform and 

791
00:40:10,539 --> 00:40:13,767
engaged with the tooling, the 
way that we need it to, for all 

792
00:40:13,767 --> 00:40:17,280
of this to work. 
So the team did a really great 

793
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,800
job here. 
Working on this, Lino weave, 

794
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,958
it's this really beautiful 
engineered woven. 

795
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,307
And the woven material here has 
some awesome benefits. is 

796
00:40:25,307 --> 00:40:28,979
actually a lot stronger. than 
the prior material that we were 

797
00:40:28,979 --> 00:40:31,274
using. 
It's also more breathable and 

798
00:40:31,274 --> 00:40:34,918
it's wicking moisture better. 
So it's simple things, right? 

799
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,638
You're throwing a water cup on 
yourself at an aid station. 

800
00:40:38,639 --> 00:40:42,358
Like, we need this thing to dry 
out as quickly as possible. 

801
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:44,998
We got to consider our 
triathlete friends here as well.

802
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:49,386
So I think it was an ideal 
material for us to have that 

803
00:40:49,386 --> 00:40:52,756
structure, but also that 
breathability, um, in a way that

804
00:40:52,756 --> 00:40:54,778
really just lasted for marathon 
runners. 

805
00:40:54,780 --> 00:40:58,033
And then you're totally right in
terms of lacing systems and 

806
00:40:58,033 --> 00:41:00,290
asymmetry here too. 
I think, biasing things away 

807
00:41:00,290 --> 00:41:03,298
from the big toe a little bit 
with the lacing setup. 

808
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:06,500
We were really having good 
success with this combination of

809
00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:09,489
the lace. 
And then the webbings to allow 

810
00:41:09,489 --> 00:41:13,790
for actually enough kind of 
lockdown, but a little bit of 

811
00:41:13,790 --> 00:41:16,918
adaptability swells over the 
course of a race. 

812
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,850
And then we wanted to make sure 
that there was enough ability to

813
00:41:20,850 --> 00:41:24,776
really lock down the top of the 
shoe around the ankle and the 

814
00:41:24,776 --> 00:41:27,109
heel. 
So, not only pulling in the ice 

815
00:41:27,109 --> 00:41:30,578
stay a little bit tighter 
through the top kind of 2 eye 

816
00:41:30,578 --> 00:41:33,468
rows here, but then still 
allowing people the addition to 

817
00:41:33,468 --> 00:41:35,491
do the additional kind of heel 
lock. 

818
00:41:35,491 --> 00:41:37,360
Lacing trick here. 
So just really letting athletes 

819
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,960
kind of customize the fit the 
way that they need to for race 

820
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:42,658
day was really important for us.
That makes sense. 

821
00:41:42,659 --> 00:41:45,629
It's interesting that I, the 
more I learned about foot and 

822
00:41:45,629 --> 00:41:48,058
echo by mechanics. 
There's variability, right? 

823
00:41:48,059 --> 00:41:51,274
Every person's feet, even 
between feet on the same person,

824
00:41:51,274 --> 00:41:52,558
are usually completely 
different. 

825
00:41:52,559 --> 00:41:55,541
It's like, so I hear people can,
like, a lot of my students when 

826
00:41:55,541 --> 00:41:58,302
they 1st come here and they're 
like, oh, look, so you can see, 

827
00:41:58,302 --> 00:42:01,058
for those of you watching a 
video, yes, I have both a garage

828
00:42:01,058 --> 00:42:03,390
filled with running shoes and my
office is getting filled with 

829
00:42:03,390 --> 00:42:05,934
the shoeboxes because my wife 
won't let me keep the boxes in 

830
00:42:05,934 --> 00:42:08,481
the house. 
But so this fills up the whole, 

831
00:42:08,481 --> 00:42:11,814
like, if you look outside my 
office, the whole window is 

832
00:42:11,814 --> 00:42:14,844
filled with this, so obviously 
shoe questions come about, and 

833
00:42:14,844 --> 00:42:18,472
one of the 1st things be like, 
they'll feel so, like, what's 

834
00:42:18,472 --> 00:42:20,640
termed, they'll embarrass. 
Like, I think I have different 

835
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,038
size feet. like, yeah, you're bi
mechanics different too. 

836
00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:25,630
That's that's normal. 
It's less normal to have 2 feet 

837
00:42:25,630 --> 00:42:28,379
that are exactly the same. 
So it's interesting to me to 

838
00:42:28,379 --> 00:42:30,555
see. 
I feel like I haven't seen the 

839
00:42:30,555 --> 00:42:33,503
asymmetrical lacing as much as I
would expect given that the 

840
00:42:33,503 --> 00:42:36,451
medial aspect of the foot is not
always, Hokay, but it's 

841
00:42:36,451 --> 00:42:38,863
oftentimes higher than lateral 
and there's that nice groove 

842
00:42:38,863 --> 00:42:42,079
where we also have a lot of 
lacing systems that are fairly 

843
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:45,295
centralized, which I don't think
a lot of people realize how much

844
00:42:45,295 --> 00:42:47,698
you can adjust your laces to 
adjust to fit. 

845
00:42:47,699 --> 00:42:50,949
I think most people just tie it 
and go, that's it instead of 

846
00:42:50,949 --> 00:42:53,949
going, no, there's all kinds of 
ways you can skip lace holes, 

847
00:42:53,949 --> 00:42:56,938
you can you can change, you can 
make things stiffer or looser. 

848
00:42:56,940 --> 00:42:59,664
And so it's interesting. 
I feel like a lot of the 

849
00:42:59,664 --> 00:43:02,008
asymmetrical ones add an element
of being able to customize 

850
00:43:02,008 --> 00:43:04,554
things a little bit more. 
Is that what you found or is 

851
00:43:04,554 --> 00:43:06,479
that not quite true? 
Yeah. 

852
00:43:06,479 --> 00:43:08,098
Yeah. 
For sure. 

853
00:43:08,099 --> 00:43:10,558
I mean, my background, I ran in 
college. 

854
00:43:10,559 --> 00:43:14,288
I worked in run specialty 
retail, spent a lot of time 

855
00:43:14,288 --> 00:43:16,318
learning different shoelacing 
tricks and techniques. 

856
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:19,245
Definitely feel like there is, 
um, something especially when 

857
00:43:19,245 --> 00:43:21,845
you have these later weight 
deconstructed uppers that 

858
00:43:21,845 --> 00:43:25,745
sometimes to have a little bit 
more of a bias or asymmetrical 

859
00:43:25,745 --> 00:43:29,638
lacing system can just help get 
the most out of the material. 

860
00:43:29,639 --> 00:43:32,789
So sometimes when those 
materials rely so much on 

861
00:43:32,789 --> 00:43:35,934
mechanical stretch, um, or 
they're really static and kind 

862
00:43:35,934 --> 00:43:40,471
of locked in, you just have to 
remember the foot to your point 

863
00:43:40,471 --> 00:43:43,920
is not symmetrical. 
So to allow athletes to have the

864
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,350
adjustability and lacing, but 
also just that kind of intuitive

865
00:43:47,350 --> 00:43:50,780
comfort for a marathon, we 
thought that little bit of 

866
00:43:50,780 --> 00:43:54,896
lateral bias to the IRO, the 
webbing in the IRO, that ability

867
00:43:54,896 --> 00:43:59,355
to kind of singe down, um, top 
around the heel was just really 

868
00:43:59,355 --> 00:44:00,870
important. 
Something our athletes also 

869
00:44:00,870 --> 00:44:03,639
responded really well too. 
So for us, it was it was a 

870
00:44:03,639 --> 00:44:05,038
no-brainer and pretty intuitive 
on this one. 

871
00:44:05,039 --> 00:44:07,678
That makes total sense. 
Hey, totally off topic. 

872
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:10,259
What run specialty did you start
in? 

873
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:16,529
I worked through college, uh, 
um, now River City outfitters in

874
00:44:16,529 --> 00:44:17,619
Peoria. 
Oh, Illinois. 

875
00:44:17,619 --> 00:44:19,438
I was playing Central at the 
time. 

876
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,358
I worked there for about 7 
years. 

877
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,278
Shout out to my Peoria, Illinois
crew. 

878
00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:28,080
Um, yeah, incredible experience.
I can't say enough about working

879
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,178
in specialty and shopping at 
specialty. 

880
00:44:30,179 --> 00:44:33,742
So wonderful experience and uh, 
yeah, really, really loved that 

881
00:44:33,742 --> 00:44:35,878
and it's definitely affected my 
career. 

882
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:38,688
Yeah, it's very dangerous, by 
the way, when you work and run 

883
00:44:38,688 --> 00:44:41,027
specialty because you get these 
great discounts and then you 

884
00:44:41,027 --> 00:44:42,658
blow your entire paycheck on 
those discounts. 

885
00:44:42,659 --> 00:44:44,698
You're like, where, where'd that
go? 

886
00:44:44,699 --> 00:44:48,298
So then imagine working for a 
shoe brand and bean sample size.

887
00:44:48,300 --> 00:44:49,558
Yeah, no, great. 
Yeah. 

888
00:44:49,559 --> 00:44:53,064
Perfect. 
I got to give a shout out 

889
00:44:53,064 --> 00:44:56,485
because actually these, well, 
one of them currently is, is, is

890
00:44:56,485 --> 00:44:59,170
behind you actually. 
So I got my start, those maybe 

891
00:44:59,170 --> 00:45:01,670
those fit right northwest, which
approachly no longer exists, but

892
00:45:01,670 --> 00:45:03,418
foot traffic is where I finished
out. 

893
00:45:03,420 --> 00:45:05,938
So shout out to foot traffic. 
we're very lucky. 

894
00:45:05,940 --> 00:45:09,840
Portland has a lot of really, 
Oregon has a lot of really great

895
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:11,338
footwear and run specialty 
stores. 

896
00:45:11,340 --> 00:45:15,118
So I'm gonna, can I challenge 
you with a question? 

897
00:45:15,119 --> 00:45:18,958
Let's go Hokay, so this is to 
make you a little uncomfortable.

898
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:22,488
So what athletes do you think 
are going to work really well 

899
00:45:22,488 --> 00:45:26,306
with the shoe and what athletes 
do you think may not work very 

900
00:45:26,306 --> 00:45:30,090
well with this shoe? 
We have great examples of this 

901
00:45:30,090 --> 00:45:32,698
from our current Hokka, Ali 
roster? 

902
00:45:32,699 --> 00:45:36,483
It was really interesting when 
we went and actually did some 

903
00:45:36,483 --> 00:45:39,916
initial rounds of testing with 
some of our athletes in 

904
00:45:39,916 --> 00:45:42,620
Flagstaff. 
There were immediate love hate 

905
00:45:42,620 --> 00:45:45,451
reactions to our initial 
prototypes here. 

906
00:45:45,451 --> 00:45:50,161
And it was really incredible 
watching an athlete, like Alex 

907
00:45:50,161 --> 00:45:53,458
Masai, the like immediate early 
adopter, right? 

908
00:45:53,460 --> 00:45:59,536
Midbit striker, super efficient 
guy, um, but loves that feeling 

909
00:45:59,536 --> 00:46:03,178
and sensation of liveliness and 
propulsion. 

910
00:46:03,179 --> 00:46:07,134
So, I think we kind of knew it 
was a combination of factors, 

911
00:46:07,134 --> 00:46:09,240
right? 
It was an athlete who still is 

912
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:11,553
probably a little bit more 
efficient, still probably a 

913
00:46:11,553 --> 00:46:15,020
little bit more midfoot biased. 
Um, but also enjoys something 

914
00:46:15,020 --> 00:46:20,248
that feels a little bit more um,
wild underfoot that is totally, 

915
00:46:20,248 --> 00:46:25,315
it's a sweet spot for this. 
Because we have other athletes 

916
00:46:25,315 --> 00:46:30,419
who, um, they know it's fast. 
They love the premise of the 

917
00:46:30,419 --> 00:46:32,838
shoe. 
They've used the shoe, but it 

918
00:46:32,838 --> 00:46:36,604
still feels, um, either too wild
or too uncontrolled and so 

919
00:46:36,604 --> 00:46:38,998
there's still a preference for 
the rocket. 

920
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:43,410
So, I would say from us, we feel
totally Hokay with there being a

921
00:46:43,410 --> 00:46:46,558
little bit more of a niche, 
honed in sweet spot. 

922
00:46:46,559 --> 00:46:49,438
On that, it doesn't make us 
uncomfortable at all. 

923
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,728
I think unless you're willing to
do something that feels a little

924
00:46:52,728 --> 00:46:55,742
bit sharp and pointed, again, 
you're going to miss on the 

925
00:46:55,742 --> 00:46:57,658
opportunity to deliver something
really unique underfoot. 

926
00:46:57,659 --> 00:47:00,368
I think that's helpful because 
it really helps differentiate 

927
00:47:00,368 --> 00:47:03,980
this shoe from the rocket X3, 
where I think those that have 

928
00:47:03,980 --> 00:47:07,291
more stable mechanics and maybe 
a little bit more of that 

929
00:47:07,291 --> 00:47:10,903
midfoot, even like slightly like
heel because I feel like you can

930
00:47:10,903 --> 00:47:14,816
really load the back half of the
plate and the foam well, and 

931
00:47:14,816 --> 00:47:18,418
want a little bit more of that 
crazy wild, like bouncing and 

932
00:47:18,418 --> 00:47:20,471
rolling ride. 
That's who's going to do very 

933
00:47:20,471 --> 00:47:23,617
well in the shoe, whereas those 
who might need a little bit more

934
00:47:23,617 --> 00:47:26,269
structure, a little bit more 
stability or wants them to feel 

935
00:47:26,269 --> 00:47:28,438
a little bit more controlled, 
maybe don't like that. 

936
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,884
Well, that's where the rocket X 
3 is probably going to be a 

937
00:47:30,884 --> 00:47:32,730
better option. 
And it's great to have that 

938
00:47:32,730 --> 00:47:35,414
dichotomy versus when you have 
other places where it's like you

939
00:47:35,414 --> 00:47:38,098
have 2 super shoes, but they're 
like, kind of the same. 

940
00:47:38,099 --> 00:47:40,550
It's like, it's great. 
And I think I agree that, like, 

941
00:47:40,550 --> 00:47:42,893
if you're going to put the 
effort to put something out 

942
00:47:42,893 --> 00:47:45,018
there, that makes sense, make it
polarizing, because that's how 

943
00:47:45,018 --> 00:47:47,138
you, that's, that's the only way
with, with everybody having 

944
00:47:47,138 --> 00:47:49,470
super shoes, like you got to 
make something, a product that 

945
00:47:49,470 --> 00:47:52,438
stands out, and I think you guys
have done a great job on that. 

946
00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,714
So, yeah. 
Anything, any other things that 

947
00:47:55,714 --> 00:47:58,259
I haven't asked about. like, 
hey, this is a really big deal. 

948
00:47:58,260 --> 00:48:00,958
I want to make sure listeners 
and viewers know this. 

949
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,080
What else do you love and what's
unique about this shoe that we 

950
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,598
haven't talked about? 
or that and everything. 

951
00:48:06,599 --> 00:48:11,520
We've covered a majority of it. 
I think what makes this the most

952
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,600
proud with this issue. 
Um, You know, Hoka hasn't been 

953
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,558
known for being elite in the 
road racing space. 

954
00:48:19,559 --> 00:48:23,458
We're known for trail. 
We're known for Max Cushioning. 

955
00:48:23,460 --> 00:48:26,980
Um, but to watch a really 
incredibly talented team here, 

956
00:48:26,980 --> 00:48:30,490
put so much attention and 
thought and care into delivering

957
00:48:30,490 --> 00:48:33,298
something incredible for 
athletes has been so rewarding. 

958
00:48:33,300 --> 00:48:37,716
We actually had a group go to 
Chicago Marathon, and we were 

959
00:48:37,716 --> 00:48:42,132
able to watch our 1st world 
major marathon podium as a brand

960
00:48:42,132 --> 00:48:46,180
in a prototype of the shoe, 
which was an incredible feeling,

961
00:48:46,180 --> 00:48:50,596
and I think, um, you kind of 
have to consider every brand 

962
00:48:50,596 --> 00:48:54,644
start somewhere, right, in their
in their journey of figuring out

963
00:48:54,644 --> 00:48:58,318
how to become best and unique in
that specific space. 

964
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:01,658
And for us, I think the Celox 
one truly is the beginning of 

965
00:49:01,658 --> 00:49:05,700
our journey on the road. 
Um, Also a huge shout out to the

966
00:49:05,700 --> 00:49:08,699
team on this one. 
I mean, our product line manager

967
00:49:08,699 --> 00:49:11,910
on this, Brandon Johnson. 
He's Olympic trials qualifier in

968
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:14,466
the marathon himself knows the 
space. 

969
00:49:14,466 --> 00:49:18,300
He and our product testing 
analyst, Ari, were actually 

970
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:22,558
featured in the photography for 
the campaign for this shoe. 

971
00:49:22,559 --> 00:49:25,142
So we have incredibly talented 
and passionate athletes also 

972
00:49:25,142 --> 00:49:28,873
working on the product and I 
think it just shows and the um, 

973
00:49:28,873 --> 00:49:32,598
the feeling that you get when 
you put the shoe on and the 

974
00:49:32,598 --> 00:49:35,458
results that you see are 
athletes having it as well. 

975
00:49:35,460 --> 00:49:38,158
Well, I think it's a great I 
think it's a great product. 

976
00:49:38,159 --> 00:49:40,678
You guys have put a lot of 
effort into this cooler. 

977
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:43,498
It's also really fun to watch 
companies evolve. 

978
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:45,058
And I can definitely see the 
evolution. 

979
00:49:45,059 --> 00:49:48,479
I know, and I really appreciate,
by the way, you're sharing some 

980
00:49:48,479 --> 00:49:51,044
of those lessons because it's 
reinforcing to hear, hey, 

981
00:49:51,044 --> 00:49:54,178
company has a lot of experience 
and yet you're still learning. 

982
00:49:54,179 --> 00:49:57,262
It's the same way I feel as a 
clinician and doing this from 

983
00:49:57,262 --> 00:49:59,158
like, I don't have the all the 
answers. 

984
00:49:59,159 --> 00:50:02,223
You just kind of, as you get 
better, you work, you get better

985
00:50:02,223 --> 00:50:04,338
at figuring things out because 
things change so rapidly, 

986
00:50:04,338 --> 00:50:06,640
especially in today's space. 
That what you're talking about 

987
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,356
just confirms it and you're 
saying, hey, things are moving 

988
00:50:09,356 --> 00:50:12,462
way quicker. 
Like, 18 to 24 months, that's, I

989
00:50:12,462 --> 00:50:16,483
don't, listeners probably think 
that that's like a long time in 

990
00:50:16,483 --> 00:50:20,133
the shoe world, that's pretty 
fast, especially when we were 

991
00:50:20,133 --> 00:50:24,878
looking not too long at like 3 
to 5 year, like timelines from, 

992
00:50:24,878 --> 00:50:27,058
from screen to market. 
So that's really good. 

993
00:50:27,059 --> 00:50:29,878
Well, Becca, thank you so much 
for coming on. 

994
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:30,898
Really, really appreciate your 
time. 

995
00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:32,938
It's always very, very valuable 
and really fun. 

996
00:50:32,940 --> 00:50:35,857
I will definitely be bothering 
you again to come back on with 

997
00:50:35,857 --> 00:50:37,558
additional product, but this is 
really fun. 

998
00:50:37,559 --> 00:50:41,095
As always, you can find us at 
Dr. Running on a variety of 

999
00:50:41,095 --> 00:50:43,054
different areas. 
Obviously, Becca, you're in the 

1000
00:50:43,054 --> 00:50:45,019
Portland area. 
So if you ever need anything, 

1001
00:50:45,019 --> 00:50:46,438
let me know. 
I'm just down the street. 

1002
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,079
I might come bug you for a tour 
of sometime, the hoko place down

1003
00:50:50,079 --> 00:50:52,396
there. 
Um, and then if you ever see uh,

1004
00:50:52,396 --> 00:50:55,474
see my, if you see somebody 
rolling with a stroller and his 

1005
00:50:55,474 --> 00:50:57,778
wife running by, that's probably
me and my wife. 

1006
00:50:57,780 --> 00:51:01,110
So don't forget to say hi. 
Um, you can find us at doctors 

1007
00:51:01,110 --> 00:51:02,818
running in a variety of 
different areas. 

1008
00:51:02,820 --> 00:51:04,740
Obviously, you're probably 
listening to this either through

1009
00:51:04,740 --> 00:51:06,178
Spotify, iTunes, or variety of 
places. 

1010
00:51:06,179 --> 00:51:08,879
You can also find the video on 
YouTube, which you post every 

1011
00:51:08,879 --> 00:51:11,354
week along with the audio in 
different places for people to 

1012
00:51:11,354 --> 00:51:13,936
be able to consume this. 
A lot of our full reviews, you 

1013
00:51:13,936 --> 00:51:16,216
can find occasional ones on 
YouTube, but most stuff is still

1014
00:51:16,216 --> 00:51:18,972
going to be on the website. 
All of our original full reviews

1015
00:51:18,972 --> 00:51:20,872
you can find there. 
We really appreciate you 

1016
00:51:20,872 --> 00:51:22,870
listening and watching and 
reading all this stuff because 

1017
00:51:22,870 --> 00:51:25,756
we, just like all of you, are 
just trying to learn and trying 

1018
00:51:25,756 --> 00:51:28,198
to make better decisions about 
what we put on our feet. 

1019
00:51:28,199 --> 00:51:30,878
And Becca, thank you so much so 
much for coming on and helping 

1020
00:51:30,878 --> 00:51:32,938
educate us more on being able to
make those decisions. 

1021
00:51:32,940 --> 00:51:33,840
Thank so much.