1 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:11,960 Hey everyone and welcome to the Doctors Running podcast where 2 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:14,800 we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, talk about the 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,120 art and the science of the things that we're putting on our 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,520 feet. Today I have, as always, the 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:22,920 awesome doctor David Salas who is joining me and it's just the 6 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,920 two of us. And to be honest with you, we 7 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,360 kind of tried to set this episode out like Bach tried to 8 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,540 set it up so that we would argue and bit thicker because we 9 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:32,380 thought that that would get a lot more views and be more 10 00:00:32,380 --> 00:00:35,060 interesting. But I think actually we're going 11 00:00:35,060 --> 00:00:37,380 to end up teaming up because this is harder than I thought it 12 00:00:37,500 --> 00:00:40,940 is going to be. So we have a list of shoes that 13 00:00:40,940 --> 00:00:44,660 we are going to rank from least to most stable and we're going 14 00:00:44,660 --> 00:00:47,500 to talk about our list. And during that process, we're 15 00:00:47,500 --> 00:00:51,020 going to talk about kind of our evolution of both our 16 00:00:51,020 --> 00:00:53,900 understanding and thoughts of what does stability mean? 17 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:56,780 What does guidance guidance mean and how is that being integrated 18 00:00:56,780 --> 00:01:01,060 in these shoes because stability footwear has changed quite a 19 00:01:01,060 --> 00:01:02,820 bit. We've seen the disappearance in 20 00:01:02,820 --> 00:01:06,060 many shoes of traditional posts. We've seen a lot of newer 21 00:01:06,060 --> 00:01:09,980 methods like guide guide rails and guides and side walls and 22 00:01:09,980 --> 00:01:11,620 things like that, that we've also talked about. 23 00:01:11,900 --> 00:01:14,140 And then they emerged of this thing called the stable neutral 24 00:01:14,140 --> 00:01:15,420 shoe that we have talked a lot about. 25 00:01:15,420 --> 00:01:18,260 So we're going to hit on all those, but we're going to start 26 00:01:18,380 --> 00:01:21,260 for it before this list. Doctor Celeste, how you doing? 27 00:01:21,860 --> 00:01:24,660 Doing good, man. Just gearing up for a couple 28 00:01:24,660 --> 00:01:28,860 races coming up here and then. Just mentally preparing myself 29 00:01:28,860 --> 00:01:32,420 for a really busy November. The last thing you want to do 30 00:01:32,420 --> 00:01:35,740 before a race. But one of my friends is getting 31 00:01:35,740 --> 00:01:38,860 married, so I have what, Santa Barbara half beginning of the 32 00:01:38,860 --> 00:01:41,700 month and then another one. The wedding is 2 months after 33 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:44,780 that or two weeks after that and then CIM is 2 weeks after that. 34 00:01:45,060 --> 00:01:47,780 And then of course Thanksgiving is a week in between that. 35 00:01:48,180 --> 00:01:53,740 So just just mentally preparing for a very busy next four weeks 36 00:01:54,180 --> 00:01:55,340 or well. What? 37 00:01:55,340 --> 00:01:55,980 What? What are we at now? 38 00:01:55,980 --> 00:01:59,740 What's today? Today, 1015, Dude, I don't know 39 00:01:59,740 --> 00:02:03,300 anymore either. Then busy next month. 40 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:04,780 The busy next month. Yeah. 41 00:02:05,180 --> 00:02:07,540 I'd also like put in a shout out for David please. 42 00:02:07,540 --> 00:02:10,300 For all of you. Send him good vibes for for I 43 00:02:10,300 --> 00:02:13,340 keep almost wanting to say CSM. That's a whole nother joke for 44 00:02:13,340 --> 00:02:17,220 CIM that nobody else going to get but us for the California 45 00:02:17,220 --> 00:02:19,620 National Marathon which is a for me. 46 00:02:19,620 --> 00:02:21,100 I've always been really challenged with that course 47 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:22,300 because I don't do some world downhill. 48 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:26,730 But it is a fast course and want everybody send good vibes and 49 00:02:26,730 --> 00:02:31,130 fast feelings to David so you can crush another marathon and 50 00:02:31,290 --> 00:02:35,090 keep moving closer to or hit that OTQ that we all know you 51 00:02:35,090 --> 00:02:37,250 have in you. So please send those good vibes 52 00:02:37,250 --> 00:02:42,690 to him. So let's get into this list. 53 00:02:42,690 --> 00:02:47,610 So in no particular order, we, David and I, without knowing 54 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:49,970 what the other person is going to do, are going to rank the 55 00:02:49,970 --> 00:02:53,210 following shoes from least stable to most stable. 56 00:02:53,530 --> 00:02:58,090 The list is not in any order the Saucony Guide 16. 57 00:02:58,090 --> 00:03:00,740 We'll throw the 15 in there because kind of an upper update. 58 00:03:01,300 --> 00:03:04,220 The Hoka Arahi 6, which Hoka, what are you putting out? 59 00:03:04,220 --> 00:03:06,860 Number seven? Come on, I'll stop the the New 60 00:03:06,860 --> 00:03:10,420 Balance Rebel version three, the Ultra Escalante three, the 61 00:03:10,420 --> 00:03:14,660 Adidas Boston 12, the Hoka Stinson 7. 62 00:03:14,820 --> 00:03:21,300 The ASICS Keanu 30, the On Cloud Go, the Brooks Adrenaline and 63 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:24,700 then the Nike Vamero 17 which we just got and I'm really 64 00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:29,660 enjoying. So who wants to go first and do 65 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:31,540 least? We're going to do least stable 66 00:03:31,540 --> 00:03:34,540 to most stable, right? Least stable to most stable. 67 00:03:34,540 --> 00:03:36,980 Least stable to most stable? Yep, got it. 68 00:03:37,180 --> 00:03:39,980 OK, so I'm going to write down or we. 69 00:03:39,980 --> 00:03:45,300 Can do like a 321 shoot type thing, you know, where we say it 70 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:48,020 like 1 to one through 10. Or like. 71 00:03:48,020 --> 00:03:49,500 Yeah, yeah, like the least stable. 72 00:03:49,500 --> 00:03:52,340 OK, you know you're ready. Oh yeah, we should definitely 73 00:03:52,340 --> 00:03:55,180 do. That say it and then see if they 74 00:03:55,180 --> 00:03:56,940 line up. Yeah. 75 00:03:58,110 --> 00:03:59,110 Should we do it? Yeah. 76 00:03:59,110 --> 00:04:00,150 All right. Let's do it. 77 00:04:00,150 --> 00:04:06,430 All right, All right. So on 3123 Rebel Rebel Version 78 00:04:06,430 --> 00:04:07,030 3. There we go. 79 00:04:07,030 --> 00:04:08,470 New Balance Rebel. We agree. 80 00:04:08,590 --> 00:04:12,350 Sorry Brock, we agree it's OK, so that'd be laughing. 81 00:04:12,350 --> 00:04:16,110 We agree the whole entire time. So why did you say the Rebel V3 82 00:04:16,110 --> 00:04:20,110 being the least stable? Yeah, I mean it was one of those 83 00:04:20,110 --> 00:04:23,270 shoes that it was meant to be this performance shoe and it is 84 00:04:23,270 --> 00:04:25,270 a performance shoe. It's it's lightweight, it's 85 00:04:25,270 --> 00:04:28,230 streamlined. The fuel cell is soft, man. 86 00:04:28,230 --> 00:04:29,990 Like, there's a lot of give to it. 87 00:04:30,270 --> 00:04:33,990 The upper, it's secure enough, but there's still a little bit 88 00:04:33,990 --> 00:04:36,310 of give to it. Like, I definitely don't feel 89 00:04:36,310 --> 00:04:39,670 stable in that shoe. And I think one thing that was 90 00:04:39,670 --> 00:04:42,670 very evident when I was running in that shoe was being on the 91 00:04:42,670 --> 00:04:44,790 track. That should be a shoe that in 92 00:04:44,790 --> 00:04:47,150 theory I feel comfortable running on the track in. 93 00:04:47,510 --> 00:04:49,590 And I didn't feel that comfortable running in the 94 00:04:49,590 --> 00:04:50,870 track. Like if I was running on the 95 00:04:50,870 --> 00:04:54,350 road, sure, it was fine. But like, keeping kind of 96 00:04:54,350 --> 00:04:58,470 constantly being on a turn didn't feel great in that shoe. 97 00:04:58,870 --> 00:05:02,910 So it was a pretty for me, that was probably the easiest pick of 98 00:05:02,910 --> 00:05:05,510 this entire list. Like that was the least stable 99 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:07,870 for me. It's a neutral shoe, and if you 100 00:05:07,870 --> 00:05:10,790 like soft foams and bouncy foams, like, it's not a bad shoe 101 00:05:10,790 --> 00:05:12,270 by any means. It's just not that stable. 102 00:05:13,070 --> 00:05:15,110 I totally agree. I think it was the combination 103 00:05:15,110 --> 00:05:18,350 of fuel cell super soft. It's like same thing if you sell 104 00:05:18,590 --> 00:05:21,110 Elite Fusion 3 version three. Like, I know some people love 105 00:05:21,110 --> 00:05:23,690 that shoots, just not it has some of the things, but for me, 106 00:05:23,690 --> 00:05:25,570 long term, it's just such a soft foam. 107 00:05:25,570 --> 00:05:28,210 It's not a it's not unstable, it's not a stable shoe. 108 00:05:28,610 --> 00:05:32,810 The Rebel V3 also has the really narrow shape, so there's not a 109 00:05:32,810 --> 00:05:35,650 lot like for someone like me that actually has stability 110 00:05:35,650 --> 00:05:37,690 needs, like I'll kind of like roll off the platform. 111 00:05:37,690 --> 00:05:39,570 It wasn't bad. I enjoyed that shoe. 112 00:05:39,570 --> 00:05:42,930 It's just not a stable shoe. That's just how it goes for me. 113 00:05:42,930 --> 00:05:46,250 Someone like me, it worked a lot better for shorter distances. 114 00:05:46,250 --> 00:05:48,930 And for someone maybe that has different mechanics, maybe you 115 00:05:48,930 --> 00:05:51,090 can take that longer. But you got to have, like, more 116 00:05:51,090 --> 00:05:54,330 stable mechanics to use that shoe unless using it for shorter 117 00:05:54,330 --> 00:05:56,890 stuff. So, all right, we agree. 118 00:05:57,010 --> 00:05:59,650 We agree. So ready for #2? 119 00:06:00,930 --> 00:06:01,930 Ready. Yeah. 120 00:06:02,290 --> 00:06:07,450 All right, 123. Wait, what? 121 00:06:07,770 --> 00:06:09,860 Seriously. I felt like that was a little 122 00:06:09,860 --> 00:06:11,500 bit of a hot take, but we both agreed. 123 00:06:11,500 --> 00:06:14,860 Yeah, we both agreed again. I I Do you mind if I go first on 124 00:06:14,860 --> 00:06:16,060 this one? Go for it. 125 00:06:16,780 --> 00:06:19,940 It's not that it's an unstable shoe, there's just no other 126 00:06:19,940 --> 00:06:22,820 elements that provides. I mean, it's got the kind of 127 00:06:22,820 --> 00:06:25,540 wider base which classic world I have this? 128 00:06:25,580 --> 00:06:27,820 That's cool, man. What color do you? 129 00:06:27,820 --> 00:06:29,700 Like that. I mean, mine's cool too. 130 00:06:30,020 --> 00:06:33,160 I guess they're both nice. I've got the like black on 131 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:34,360 white. It's all black. 132 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:36,600 See that? That works better for like 133 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,480 clinic, stuff like that. It's a bite clinic. 134 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:41,960 Killer, I definitely worn this clinic multiple times. 135 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,360 Sure, yeah. I have not worn this while 136 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,760 teaching yet, although my students are usually pretty 137 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,570 chill about that. It's not that it's unstable, 138 00:06:50,570 --> 00:06:53,250 it's just a flat and we were talking about this earlier like 139 00:06:53,250 --> 00:06:55,690 you said, it just it's kind of a, it's a decently cushioned, 140 00:06:55,690 --> 00:06:57,490 traditional flat. Essentially it's a little bit 141 00:06:57,490 --> 00:07:01,050 heavier, no side walls. Yeah, the mid foot isn't as 142 00:07:01,050 --> 00:07:03,530 narrow as it could be, but you know, it's got some flexibility 143 00:07:03,530 --> 00:07:04,810 to it. It's low to the ground. 144 00:07:05,010 --> 00:07:07,410 It's not meant to be quote UN quote stable. 145 00:07:07,410 --> 00:07:10,370 It's just meant to be there and kind of let your foot do what 146 00:07:10,370 --> 00:07:12,010 it's meant to be. It's just like it's got a it's 147 00:07:12,010 --> 00:07:16,130 got a teeny bit of stiffness, but once you wear it like that 148 00:07:16,130 --> 00:07:18,050 kind of goes away. Nice foam though. 149 00:07:18,050 --> 00:07:19,250 I really like the foam that you will. 150 00:07:19,450 --> 00:07:21,810 Say it feels more cushion than it probably should. 151 00:07:21,970 --> 00:07:23,010 That's fair. Yeah. 152 00:07:23,010 --> 00:07:26,770 I want you to try the Escalante racer, which they haven't 153 00:07:26,770 --> 00:07:28,770 updated in years. I feel like you would like that. 154 00:07:28,770 --> 00:07:30,010 Shoe. I think I would too. 155 00:07:30,370 --> 00:07:33,890 So I'll try update that shoe, update it or send it to David 156 00:07:33,890 --> 00:07:35,450 because I feel like he'd love it. 157 00:07:35,530 --> 00:07:37,850 I have to. I reviewed that shoe like in the 158 00:07:37,970 --> 00:07:40,370 early days of doctors. Running, I remember. 159 00:07:40,530 --> 00:07:43,410 And the Golden Spike, Yes, Yes, that was David. 160 00:07:43,410 --> 00:07:45,170 It was like one of the first shoes. 161 00:07:46,050 --> 00:07:47,450 I don't know. That was one of the first years 162 00:07:47,450 --> 00:07:51,170 you review for Doctors Running. But yeah, sorry, David's take. 163 00:07:51,170 --> 00:07:53,290 Why is? This, I think I did donate that 164 00:07:53,290 --> 00:07:55,450 I gave that to a collegiate kid. That makes sense. 165 00:07:55,530 --> 00:07:57,890 I'd be old by now. But so what's your takes on? 166 00:07:57,890 --> 00:08:00,490 It's just and there's nothing. There's no stability elements 167 00:08:00,490 --> 00:08:03,410 other than just a wider sole, so it's not terrible. 168 00:08:03,410 --> 00:08:06,210 It's just not significantly stable either. 169 00:08:06,610 --> 00:08:08,530 I agree. It's a very natural 170 00:08:08,970 --> 00:08:10,890 transitioning shoe. It's just kind of like one of 171 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:13,050 those things we call like a quote, UN quote, no nonsense 172 00:08:13,050 --> 00:08:14,210 shoe. It's just kind of something to 173 00:08:14,210 --> 00:08:17,210 put on your foot, let your foot do what it wants to do. 174 00:08:17,770 --> 00:08:20,730 One thing that I would like to touch on as well, like even 175 00:08:20,730 --> 00:08:23,490 though there's like decent kind of soul flaring and it's got a 176 00:08:23,490 --> 00:08:25,810 decent little base and some traction, like it's not like an 177 00:08:25,810 --> 00:08:30,700 unstable shoe per southeast. But it just, it's just very 178 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:33,020 natural transitioning. It's a relatively flexible 179 00:08:33,020 --> 00:08:35,659 design. The upper does have some flex to 180 00:08:35,659 --> 00:08:37,860 it and I know Andrea has had a little bit of trouble with that 181 00:08:37,860 --> 00:08:41,220 as well, where like if you're trying to run fast or you're 182 00:08:41,220 --> 00:08:43,299 making a lot of turns, like there's a little bit of 183 00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:46,100 translation there. It almost feels like an 184 00:08:46,100 --> 00:08:48,740 athleiser shoe. I hate to say that, but I mean 185 00:08:48,740 --> 00:08:52,460 it like it's a nice shoe. I've done like I think so far. 186 00:08:52,460 --> 00:08:55,500 My longest run in the shoe has been 8 miles I think. 187 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,280 But it it just feels, it feels like a flat, you know, like it 188 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,360 feels very low to the ground, very natural. 189 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,640 I'm trying to think of like the closest thing that I can think 190 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,960 of that I can remember like, but it's big a traditional Rd. 191 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,440 racing flat low to the ground, like that's basically what it 192 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,960 feels like with a little bit more cushion. 193 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,360 So it's kind of how it's a very new do you have the, do you have 194 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:20,720 the Topo SD5I? Don't. 195 00:09:21,430 --> 00:09:22,790 Yeah, I feel like you'd like those. 196 00:09:23,150 --> 00:09:25,230 That was the exact same thought about I had about those. 197 00:09:25,230 --> 00:09:26,870 Like, it feels like a traditional racing flat. 198 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:28,510 Just that's zero drop with a white tail box. 199 00:09:28,670 --> 00:09:31,670 Yeah. Oh, that one's like 6.6 ounces. 200 00:09:31,670 --> 00:09:34,270 So oh, nice. It's definitely in that actual 201 00:09:34,270 --> 00:09:36,430 range. Those are like 9.3. 202 00:09:36,630 --> 00:09:38,590 Yeah, these are Pretty Little. Yeah. 203 00:09:38,590 --> 00:09:39,550 Relatively. Yeah. 204 00:09:39,550 --> 00:09:41,470 They got some bounce, though. So, yeah. 205 00:09:42,990 --> 00:09:48,110 All right, we're ready for #3. #3, I am ready. 206 00:09:48,470 --> 00:09:55,140 All right, 123 on cloud go. OK, All right, great. 207 00:09:55,140 --> 00:10:01,540 Finally, we disagree, so let's do cloud. 208 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:03,620 I got to write these down because my memory stinks. 209 00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:05,300 And then Vermeara. All right. 210 00:10:05,460 --> 00:10:08,420 Why is Vermeara on your on #3 for you? 211 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:12,180 I when I look at the Nike Vomero, there's a couple things 212 00:10:12,180 --> 00:10:15,220 that stand out. So one of the things, there's a 213 00:10:15,220 --> 00:10:18,020 pretty narrow midfoot that's there. 214 00:10:19,330 --> 00:10:22,610 You also have that top layer of Zumac's foam, so it's pretty 215 00:10:22,610 --> 00:10:26,890 soft and compliant. It's not the most stable shoe on 216 00:10:26,890 --> 00:10:29,770 the planet. The upper is it reinforces 217 00:10:29,770 --> 00:10:32,090 things pretty decently. There's a little bit of stretch 218 00:10:32,090 --> 00:10:33,730 to it, but it holds the foot pretty well. 219 00:10:33,930 --> 00:10:36,650 Traction does help. I feel like I can run off road 220 00:10:36,650 --> 00:10:38,210 in these a little bit if I want to. 221 00:10:39,370 --> 00:10:42,610 For the most part, it's just it's just a very neutral shoe. 222 00:10:42,610 --> 00:10:45,050 Like there's just not that much stability elements to it. 223 00:10:45,050 --> 00:10:47,570 I will say I'll give him a lot of credit for this, actually. 224 00:10:48,060 --> 00:10:52,060 The Zoom X like creates a big sidewall and then wraps around 225 00:10:52,060 --> 00:10:55,020 the heel there and that actually is quite nice. 226 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:59,300 That feels like it took a unstable platform and shoot and 227 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:02,860 made it like just stable enough to be neutral, if that makes 228 00:11:02,860 --> 00:11:04,620 sense. It took a like a shoe that could 229 00:11:04,620 --> 00:11:08,220 have been unstable and not very good to a shoe that I have 230 00:11:08,220 --> 00:11:11,260 really been enjoying. I just barely got the shoe and I 231 00:11:11,260 --> 00:11:13,580 have probably over. I don't know. 232 00:11:13,580 --> 00:11:17,340 I've probably got close to 50 miles on it already and so like. 233 00:11:18,460 --> 00:11:21,140 And not to say it's a bad shoe. I really, really like that shoe. 234 00:11:21,140 --> 00:11:24,020 But it's just not. It's not that stable quote, UN 235 00:11:24,020 --> 00:11:26,220 quote, but it's it's a true neutral shoe. 236 00:11:26,540 --> 00:11:29,580 Yeah, I I'm going to wait. I'm really close to you, so I 237 00:11:29,580 --> 00:11:32,500 will wait to give my my thoughts on that. 238 00:11:33,900 --> 00:11:37,060 But I'm going to go back to the Cloud Go and the reason is I've 239 00:11:37,060 --> 00:11:39,540 kind of like similar thoughts except there's no zoom Max. 240 00:11:40,050 --> 00:11:45,050 I personally don't feel a lot of the like on the on the on Cloud 241 00:11:45,050 --> 00:11:47,490 flyer for example. I didn't feel like that was an 242 00:11:47,570 --> 00:11:50,650 overly stable shoe until I really wore it down and then I 243 00:11:50,650 --> 00:11:54,610 kind of started feeling the stiffer medial cloud elements. 244 00:11:54,850 --> 00:11:57,210 But it was so mild I didn't get a lot of it. 245 00:11:57,490 --> 00:12:00,890 The on Cloud Go I think was billed as like a mild stability 246 00:12:00,890 --> 00:12:04,050 shoe, correct? Was I am I wrong on that? 247 00:12:04,050 --> 00:12:07,540 I might be wrong on that but I didn't. 248 00:12:07,540 --> 00:12:09,900 Feel it to be pretty. Kind of like a commuter shoe. 249 00:12:09,900 --> 00:12:12,460 Almost, Yeah. I didn't find it. 250 00:12:12,460 --> 00:12:15,660 Swift is that Yeah, I didn't find like the. 251 00:12:15,820 --> 00:12:17,460 Like a peg, I think. I think it was just like a 252 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:21,180 normal Rd. trainer. I I didn't find it particularly 253 00:12:21,180 --> 00:12:23,780 stable, unstable I, or stable or unstable. 254 00:12:23,780 --> 00:12:27,260 I found it a little bit better than the Escalante 3, but I 255 00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:32,820 found it to be a fairly standard neutral shoe on, if not like I 256 00:12:32,820 --> 00:12:36,500 was kind of like. I think it was firm enough that 257 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:38,700 I kind of like just the way it was kind of set up. 258 00:12:38,700 --> 00:12:41,540 I found myself collapsing just a little bit but not in not 259 00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:44,660 anything overly bad. There's just not there's not 260 00:12:44,660 --> 00:12:47,340 really anything there. I I know it looks like it has 261 00:12:47,340 --> 00:12:50,900 mild side walls, but I didn't feel those at all. 262 00:12:51,060 --> 00:12:56,260 So that the the Cloud Go was my #3 to be honest. 263 00:12:56,300 --> 00:12:57,420 Yeah, that's fair. Yeah. 264 00:12:57,980 --> 00:12:59,020 All right. Ready for #4? 265 00:12:59,020 --> 00:13:05,390 Let's do it. All right, one 2-3 Nike Vomero 266 00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:06,870 17 let's. Go. 267 00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:11,110 It was super close. Yeah. 268 00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:14,230 I I guess I'll just take the lead on this when I have my 269 00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:15,270 cloud. Yeah, go for it. 270 00:13:15,670 --> 00:13:19,230 So. A lot of, I mean, I think we had 271 00:13:19,230 --> 00:13:23,150 a very similar line of reasoning kind of blowing us apart. 272 00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:27,710 The one thing that took the cloud, Go over the vomero for me 273 00:13:27,710 --> 00:13:29,780 on this. Was that it was a little bit 274 00:13:29,780 --> 00:13:32,300 lower to the ground. I felt like I had a little bit 275 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:35,340 more ground feel in this. I did notice the side wall, I 276 00:13:35,340 --> 00:13:37,300 had a little bit of collapse in it, but I have a little bit of 277 00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:39,540 collapse in the vomero, so it's like that for me. 278 00:13:39,540 --> 00:13:41,740 It's like it's almost tomato, tomato. 279 00:13:42,740 --> 00:13:45,060 The upper is reinforced a little bit better. 280 00:13:45,060 --> 00:13:49,100 I think in the cloud go it just locks down a little bit better. 281 00:13:50,260 --> 00:13:52,940 But there again, true neutral shoe. 282 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,280 But it locks down well. There's a decently wide base, 283 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,520 There's a midline groove like, I don't know, for me it actually 284 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:05,040 did work pretty well for like login a good chunk of miles. 285 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,840 If we weren't reviewing all the time, I definitely would have 286 00:14:07,840 --> 00:14:10,920 logged more in these and I have had some long runs that were 287 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,960 pretty long in them. So it's a shoe that I've liked 288 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,760 and then I think just the geometry too, it kind of keeps 289 00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:19,600 you kind of rolling forward a little bit. 290 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,380 So it just. I don't know, it felt a little 291 00:14:22,380 --> 00:14:25,260 bit more stable to me, but that was a very close call and I 292 00:14:25,260 --> 00:14:29,540 actually on my little on my sticky note here, I've got it 293 00:14:29,540 --> 00:14:31,620 kind of flip-flopped a couple times there. 294 00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:36,980 But I made my final decision, you know, so I I chose Cloud Go 295 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:39,980 over Venero, but that could have changed depending on the mood on 296 00:14:39,980 --> 00:14:42,070 the. I feel like that's worth 297 00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:46,190 pointing out that for a lot of people a a guidance element, not 298 00:14:46,190 --> 00:14:48,390 actually a stability issue could put it, but a guidance element 299 00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:51,030 is definitely a significant rocker because again the key 300 00:14:51,030 --> 00:14:53,470 behind guidance is trying to keep you going forward. 301 00:14:53,470 --> 00:14:56,470 It's not necessarily forcing you in one ray other than trying to 302 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,350 keep you forward. So I feel like that can help. 303 00:14:58,350 --> 00:15:01,310 I just with the Cloud Go didn't feel it just because that 304 00:15:01,310 --> 00:15:04,110 midfoot and I'm now remembering this, that midfoot so narrowed 305 00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:06,510 so much like I that didn't work for me. 306 00:15:07,060 --> 00:15:09,580 I would need a bigger sidewall, which is kind of my defense of 307 00:15:09,580 --> 00:15:12,420 the Vimero, which I'm the same as you were Initials like just 308 00:15:12,420 --> 00:15:14,500 going to be really neutral. I'm not going to like this and 309 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:15,900 it's actually really growing on me. 310 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:19,100 Is it a stability shoe? No, it's definitely not. 311 00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:20,580 Right. The midfoot really narrows. 312 00:15:20,780 --> 00:15:24,100 The heel widens out. I do like the side walls in the 313 00:15:24,100 --> 00:15:25,860 heel. They are really significant. 314 00:15:25,860 --> 00:15:29,210 But there's Zoom X, so you know, they do collapse. 315 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:32,490 But for me, it's just enough. I've done some longer efforts in 316 00:15:32,490 --> 00:15:35,530 this shoe and it's felt fine. Is it the most stable shoe? 317 00:15:35,530 --> 00:15:37,570 No, it's definitely a stability shoe. 318 00:15:37,570 --> 00:15:40,090 And I wouldn't even put it as stable neutral, but there's 319 00:15:40,090 --> 00:15:42,730 enough there that someone like me with mild stability needs can 320 00:15:42,730 --> 00:15:47,620 definitely still run in it. So it's not the most stable, but 321 00:15:47,620 --> 00:15:50,420 it's enough for me that I've actually really enjoyed it and 322 00:15:50,420 --> 00:15:53,900 was going back and forth with my next shoe, which I'm actually 323 00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:56,980 way more torn on. So Are you ready? 324 00:15:57,300 --> 00:15:59,780 Well, I just want to say too like for the Vomera, like I did 325 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:03,540 19 in that this morning. So, like, that's like you can 326 00:16:03,540 --> 00:16:04,780 totally. It doesn't surprise me at all. 327 00:16:04,780 --> 00:16:07,460 It's not like you can't at all, but it's just that's what it's 328 00:16:07,540 --> 00:16:10,550 meant for. It's a neutral mileage shoe 329 00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:13,070 meant to get lots that's not really meant to run super fast. 330 00:16:13,070 --> 00:16:15,350 It's just you, you crank a ton of miles on it. 331 00:16:15,350 --> 00:16:17,470 It's great. I feel like we need to do 332 00:16:17,470 --> 00:16:20,150 another episode, by the way, on like the integration of like 333 00:16:20,150 --> 00:16:22,390 super foams and trainers. Oh yeah, I feel like that's been 334 00:16:22,390 --> 00:16:24,390 on my that's on my mind for a little bit. 335 00:16:24,390 --> 00:16:25,750 Just throwing that out into the void. 336 00:16:25,750 --> 00:16:27,150 So. People remind me I'm so hard on 337 00:16:27,150 --> 00:16:34,330 this next one. All right, ready 123, Boston 12. 338 00:16:34,570 --> 00:16:37,250 We agreed again, and I feel the same. 339 00:16:37,250 --> 00:16:39,570 And I'm kind of torn on this. Do you mind if I go first? 340 00:16:39,570 --> 00:16:42,770 Go for it. All right, so where I'm torn on 341 00:16:42,770 --> 00:16:44,730 this shoe is a lot of Adidas shoes. 342 00:16:44,730 --> 00:16:48,770 That poster ladder bevel works so well for me in the rear foot 343 00:16:49,170 --> 00:16:51,610 people that 'cause I tend to go too medial. 344 00:16:51,730 --> 00:16:54,210 People that go lateral. This might be a little problem 345 00:16:54,210 --> 00:16:56,930 for you, but the only thing that catches this is there's an 346 00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:59,370 extension of the plate way laterally. 347 00:16:59,610 --> 00:17:03,090 There are the rods that I can really feel and that tosses me 348 00:17:03,090 --> 00:17:06,930 medial. So really nice rear foot for me, 349 00:17:07,210 --> 00:17:10,890 not as good midfoot for me. And forefoot with Adidas rods in 350 00:17:10,890 --> 00:17:13,450 the forefoot usually works super well for me and there's very 351 00:17:13,450 --> 00:17:16,810 mild side walls in the forefoot, so forefoot is awesome. 352 00:17:16,810 --> 00:17:21,250 But I think with the the, this isn't even part of this, but 353 00:17:21,450 --> 00:17:26,079 it's just it's got something, it pulls it back that's why it it 354 00:17:26,079 --> 00:17:29,600 pulls ahead of the Vimero but not ahead of anything else. 355 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,920 And even I was kind of going back and forth between where do 356 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:35,000 I put this versus Vimero. But I think just that the, this 357 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,800 extreme lateral bevel kind of wins just a little bit, but the 358 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,680 midfoot does not. So what do you think? 359 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:45,320 I like to shoe way better than the 11. 360 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,440 Oh my gosh. Shoes this year. 361 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:49,520 Oh wow. I want to hear about this. 362 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,720 And about the Boston 12? Yeah, it's just a fun freaking 363 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,230 shoe man. But I will say it like it 364 00:17:55,230 --> 00:17:58,950 pitches you forward very quickly that posterior lateral bias is 365 00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:03,510 definitely noticeable that midfoots a little bit narrow, 366 00:18:03,710 --> 00:18:08,950 but the really wide forefoot, the rods, you know that all kind 367 00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:12,350 of saves you and it gives you a really nice toe off at the at 368 00:18:12,350 --> 00:18:14,630 the front of it. So if you're just trying to be 369 00:18:14,630 --> 00:18:17,670 like kind of constantly up and forward that she does a great 370 00:18:17,670 --> 00:18:21,610 job of doing that. So I've really liked it for like 371 00:18:21,610 --> 00:18:23,970 especially for like long runs, anything where I'm going to be 372 00:18:23,970 --> 00:18:26,210 like rhythmic and just I just want to stay locked in. 373 00:18:26,210 --> 00:18:28,530 It almost like forces you to stay locked in because if you 374 00:18:28,530 --> 00:18:30,530 don't then the shoe doesn't feel very good. 375 00:18:31,210 --> 00:18:35,690 So that's also a potential stability element right there as 376 00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:36,930 well. So that can kind of knock it 377 00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:40,210 down the list. But I'm I'm 100% with you on 378 00:18:40,210 --> 00:18:43,490 this and like I think the one thing is the the there is a 379 00:18:43,490 --> 00:18:46,250 significant there's a solid medial sidewall but it is the 380 00:18:46,250 --> 00:18:50,160 light strike pro. Yeah if you don't run quick 381 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,840 enough and get into rhythm in this shoe it doesn't feel good 382 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,000 but that like slightly up tempo, longer effort going on forever 383 00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,200 it feels great. Like I think this is one of 384 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,800 these shoes where not everybody needs a super shoe to do their 385 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,560 races and I think this would be a great racing option, long 386 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,040 racing option for a lot of people And that's it's actually 387 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:10,800 I mean it's what it's been in different forms. 388 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,920 It just kind of deviated from that in 10-11, but I think it's 389 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,200 really back with the weight coming down in this field. 390 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:20,750 So yeah, #5 we agree on the Boston 12 all. 391 00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:22,550 Right. I think we're going to start 392 00:19:22,550 --> 00:19:24,870 getting juicy now. This is where it gets you. 393 00:19:24,910 --> 00:19:27,550 And I'm I'm going to be. I can't even stick to my gun. 394 00:19:27,550 --> 00:19:28,950 I should be more aggressive. But. 395 00:19:29,110 --> 00:19:31,110 No, I mean, you're saying what you're thinking, you know, and 396 00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:32,710 that that's what I'm doing as well. 397 00:19:32,710 --> 00:19:36,950 And fortunately, unfortunately, we're agreeing for the most 398 00:19:36,950 --> 00:19:41,430 part. Yeah, these next these next two 399 00:19:41,430 --> 00:19:43,470 are really hard for me, so. All right. 400 00:19:43,670 --> 00:19:46,190 You ready? I'm ready. 401 00:19:46,930 --> 00:19:49,610 All right, man. I don't think I'm ready. 402 00:19:52,010 --> 00:19:53,490 All right, He starts splitting one now. 403 00:19:54,330 --> 00:20:00,450 God 123, Rahi 30. OK, you go first. 404 00:20:00,730 --> 00:20:05,130 Yeah, I mean, the Rahi 6, to me it feels like a slightly more 405 00:20:05,130 --> 00:20:07,890 stable Clifton, which isn't all that much more stable. 406 00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:11,810 You know what I mean? Like that J Frame terms it up. 407 00:20:11,810 --> 00:20:14,770 It does create a little bit of guidance. 408 00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:17,010 It's a nice shoe. It's not like it isn't a nice 409 00:20:17,010 --> 00:20:20,050 shoe, but it's still, it's a little bit high up off the 410 00:20:20,050 --> 00:20:21,690 ground. There's still some give to the 411 00:20:21,690 --> 00:20:22,650 foam. It. 412 00:20:23,050 --> 00:20:26,450 It just feels like you're stabilizing a already soft 413 00:20:26,450 --> 00:20:29,130 platform. So it is it a stability shoe? 414 00:20:29,130 --> 00:20:32,650 Yes, But it still kind of has some neutral components and it 415 00:20:32,650 --> 00:20:37,530 still feels, it doesn't feel super stable. 416 00:20:37,530 --> 00:20:40,790 I guess it's the way that I would put it and it feels more 417 00:20:40,790 --> 00:20:42,550 stable than the Boston and everything else that we've 418 00:20:42,550 --> 00:20:46,550 talked about. But for me it still just has a 419 00:20:46,550 --> 00:20:50,510 little bit of give to it. And even though it is stable, it 420 00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:52,350 just it just has a little bit of give to it. 421 00:20:52,390 --> 00:20:56,510 You know, upper volumes actually somewhat high compared to some 422 00:20:56,510 --> 00:20:59,710 of the other Hoka shoes if I am remembering correctly. 423 00:20:59,790 --> 00:21:04,190 And I don't know, I just, I didn't feel quite as stable in 424 00:21:04,190 --> 00:21:05,910 that shoe than I did in some of those other shoes. 425 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,280 With that said though, it does check some boxes. 426 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,880 I mean it has like the J frame, it firms it up, it has a wide 427 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,480 base to it. It has decent traction 428 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,880 underneath, like it, it checks a lot of boxes. 429 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,080 But I think for me it's the midsole, it just has a little 430 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,760 bit of give and I have some collapse there. 431 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:21,280 Got it. I'll be excited to touch on this 432 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,680 one in just a second. So I'm going to throw the Keanu 433 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,640 in there. And this is where I feel like at 434 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,480 this point now we are getting into true stability shoes. 435 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,680 So we kind of there's a big gap between the Boston 12 and this. 436 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,600 But and the Kiana's not a a bad shoe, it's just much more of a 437 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:41,640 guidance shoe than it is a stability shoe. 438 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,560 Now we're like again this the 40 guidance line, I know there's 439 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,800 some internal stuff in here, but it feels softer and actually 440 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,600 collapse into this on the medial side and it it just feels like 441 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,680 it's a really solid stable walking and jogging shoe. 442 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,680 But for those people who really want like I want really like a 443 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,840 good level of stability. I didn't get, I didn't feel it 444 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,040 as much. I got a lot of guidance with the 445 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,280 wide side wall. Calls the wide base all that 446 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,680 kind of stuff. I just didn't get as much 447 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:10,440 stability out of it. Like I'd actually pitched the 448 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:15,520 GT2000 to have a like a higher feeling of stability versus the 449 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:17,200 Keanu having a higher level of guidance. 450 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,080 What doesn't make it a bad shoe. It's just it kind of it's going 451 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,200 to fit people, very different people's needs. 452 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:28,040 So Keanu's super different. So that's my number six on this 453 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,720 list. Yeah. 454 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:31,800 I'm curious to hear what you think. 455 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:35,480 Ready for the next one. I am ready. 456 00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:42,680 All right, 1236. I hate this. 457 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,680 I hate this so much. This is awesome. 458 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,520 I love that it backfired, And it's not worth reading, pretty 459 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:49,700 much almost exactly. All right. 460 00:22:49,700 --> 00:22:53,620 Can I go? Let me, let me I hear you on the 461 00:22:53,620 --> 00:22:56,100 Arahi 6. This is why it beats the Keanu. 462 00:22:56,300 --> 00:22:59,740 Because I when I was running in that shoe, I I really liked it 463 00:22:59,740 --> 00:23:01,980 because for me it was light enough at that time compared to 464 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:04,100 everything else that I could easily like do I picked up the 465 00:23:04,100 --> 00:23:05,180 pace. I could do tempos in that. 466 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:07,620 It was great. Spent long tempo efforts. 467 00:23:07,620 --> 00:23:11,980 It was it was a great shoe. I felt the contrast between the 468 00:23:11,980 --> 00:23:14,380 J frame and the softer foam much more. 469 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,920 And maybe I don't know if I compress the foam more, more, 470 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,040 but I really like that was kind of like the one of the first 471 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,800 major inductions going wow, this is a stability issue but they 472 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,320 got guidance element because the J, it also keeps your heel 473 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:26,400 centered. And then as you're going 474 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,040 forward, for me having that through the forefoot was awesome 475 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:32,400 because I typically need stability throughout the length. 476 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,480 That's a great point, just in one spot. 477 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:40,400 So for me, I really, really liked it and it did super well 478 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:44,160 and the Keanu kind of does that in terms of the fact that it's 479 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,520 got stability, it's got guidance throughout the length shoot, the 480 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,440 wide, the wide, there's side walls, only thing the souls 481 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,680 wider. But I just noticed the J frame 482 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,080 more in the Rahi and that's why it beat it out for me. 483 00:23:57,580 --> 00:23:59,780 No, I think those are great points and it's actually kind of 484 00:23:59,780 --> 00:24:05,060 funny because my thought process is also very similar and maybe I 485 00:24:05,060 --> 00:24:08,860 just don't crash the ground quite at the same angle as you 486 00:24:08,860 --> 00:24:10,660 do. I I don't. 487 00:24:10,860 --> 00:24:16,420 I don't think anybody does to be honest, like full length like 488 00:24:16,420 --> 00:24:18,860 that. The thing that I notice is that 489 00:24:18,860 --> 00:24:20,740 little bit of guidance from the Keanu. 490 00:24:20,740 --> 00:24:23,660 The foam is also firmer, even though there's, well, I there's 491 00:24:23,660 --> 00:24:25,500 not more of it. It's about the same stack 492 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:29,280 roughly, right? Let's I It's pretty Darn, I 493 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:31,600 don't remember. What this because the Keanu's 494 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:33,440 4030. I don't remember what the Arahi 495 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,520 6 is. I mean, if the Clifton's 40, I'm 496 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,320 gonna imagine the Arahi's pretty close. 497 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,920 You're probably right. But I just noticed that firmer 498 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,680 foam on the Keanu just felt a little bit more stable to me. 499 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,520 Yes, there was a little bit of give on that guidance system, 500 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,320 but I was already kind of on their 40 guidance system quote 501 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,340 UN quote like I was already kind of getting onto my forefoot 502 00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:56,420 already, you know. So I felt like I was kind of 503 00:24:56,420 --> 00:25:00,860 guided forward and I kind of had this wider base underneath me 504 00:25:00,860 --> 00:25:04,820 and that just felt a little bit more quote UN quote trustworthy 505 00:25:04,820 --> 00:25:10,060 than the Arahi 6. So it but at the same time I can 506 00:25:10,060 --> 00:25:12,980 I can totally see where you're coming from on the Arahi as 507 00:25:12,980 --> 00:25:15,660 well. But I just I noticed a little 508 00:25:15,660 --> 00:25:18,860 bit more give on myself in my own mechanics in the Arahi than 509 00:25:18,860 --> 00:25:21,150 I did in the Keanu. There's no way this is right. 510 00:25:21,790 --> 00:25:25,070 Guess what the stack height is for the Arahi 6? 511 00:25:25,070 --> 00:25:27,270 Is this per Hokah's website or running warehouse? 512 00:25:27,510 --> 00:25:31,230 No, this is running warehouse and us and us, yeah, we were off 513 00:25:31,230 --> 00:25:34,910 by like around so yeah, yeah. It it's changed 35 so. 514 00:25:35,510 --> 00:25:37,830 Yeah. So we had 3530, I'm that was 515 00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:40,430 3929. So like the other day. 516 00:25:40,830 --> 00:25:43,070 So it was like 2 recordings ago or something. 517 00:25:43,070 --> 00:25:46,730 We were talking about the Max cushion and Clifton has always 518 00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:49,410 been in the lower 30s per their stacks. 519 00:25:49,410 --> 00:25:51,730 But then Nate was saying he was at 40. 520 00:25:52,130 --> 00:25:55,930 So I that was news to me. I I didn't realize that for some 521 00:25:55,930 --> 00:25:57,330 reason. I mean, we just reviewed so many 522 00:25:57,330 --> 00:25:59,730 shoes, it's kind of hard to keep track of all of them sometimes. 523 00:25:59,810 --> 00:26:00,810 It is. That's fair. 524 00:26:00,810 --> 00:26:05,930 Like I was like I don't I didn't realize it was up at 40 but I 525 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:09,410 don't know like is he Rahi down at 35 and the Clifton at 40. 526 00:26:09,850 --> 00:26:13,730 Also, like Roscoe does seem to be the most wishy washy with 527 00:26:13,730 --> 00:26:15,370 some of these stack measurements, especially on 528 00:26:15,370 --> 00:26:18,770 their own site they they use those volumetric measurements 529 00:26:18,770 --> 00:26:20,250 right that they. Yeah, I don't. 530 00:26:20,290 --> 00:26:23,530 Why do they There's like 3 by numbers like yeah, it's like. 531 00:26:23,690 --> 00:26:24,850 That doesn't. That's not helpful. 532 00:26:24,850 --> 00:26:26,730 Just give us the basic no offense, OK? 533 00:26:26,730 --> 00:26:30,330 Just get to the get to the give the people what they want. 534 00:26:30,330 --> 00:26:31,450 They don't know what volume means. 535 00:26:33,260 --> 00:26:34,380 All right. Ready. 536 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:35,540 Wait, wait. Hold up, hold up. 537 00:26:35,620 --> 00:26:37,740 I I think I yes. Yes, I'm ready. 538 00:26:37,740 --> 00:26:39,780 I made a couple switcheroos, you know, randomly. 539 00:26:39,780 --> 00:26:41,340 So I've just got to follow my own arrows. 540 00:26:41,340 --> 00:26:41,980 Got it. The. 541 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:44,660 Next couple ones are pretty are going to be three more. 542 00:26:45,380 --> 00:26:47,260 Yeah, we got three more. Yeah, I'm ready. 543 00:26:47,780 --> 00:26:57,140 Oh, all right, 123 Guide 16. Oh, this is going to be good. 544 00:26:57,300 --> 00:26:59,060 All right. Go for it. 545 00:26:59,140 --> 00:27:03,060 So the Brooks adrenaline, I see it in a similar light as the 546 00:27:03,060 --> 00:27:05,380 Arachi, but I think it's just more stable. 547 00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:08,740 I when I look at the adrenaline, I think of a shoe kind of like 548 00:27:08,740 --> 00:27:14,980 the Ghost, the Saucony ride, a Nike Pegasus, like like a pretty 549 00:27:14,980 --> 00:27:18,140 traditional running shoe, neutral frame. 550 00:27:18,500 --> 00:27:20,620 And they added some guidance rails on there and they kind of 551 00:27:20,620 --> 00:27:24,260 firmed it up a little bit and it just felt, it felt a little bit 552 00:27:24,260 --> 00:27:27,340 more stable than the traditional offering. 553 00:27:28,260 --> 00:27:30,780 And you're able to kind of take it a little bit of everywhere 554 00:27:30,780 --> 00:27:34,020 where you want to go like it, it just kind of works and it's like 555 00:27:34,020 --> 00:27:36,700 that shoe that you can beat up into the ground and you can 556 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:38,380 trust that it's going to be there underneath you. 557 00:27:38,380 --> 00:27:42,660 And it is a stable shoe. I just it's one of those ones 558 00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:47,300 where I don't and we'll touch on this a little bit later. 559 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:49,100 But for me stability is about trust. 560 00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:54,390 And how much do I trust that shoe taking it, you know Rd. for 561 00:27:54,390 --> 00:27:57,630 long periods of time, even if I have to go trail off road, 562 00:27:57,630 --> 00:28:00,910 unstable surfaces, grass, you know, it doesn't have to be 563 00:28:00,910 --> 00:28:01,950 trail. It could just be literally a 564 00:28:01,950 --> 00:28:03,590 grass lawn. I mean how many times have you 565 00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:06,790 been running on a grass lawn and there's Gopher holes and gives 566 00:28:06,790 --> 00:28:09,110 and things where it's like OK, that's not a stable surface 567 00:28:09,110 --> 00:28:10,070 either. It's not a trail. 568 00:28:10,070 --> 00:28:14,670 But like I, I just think about like how much do I trust this 569 00:28:14,670 --> 00:28:16,910 shoe. And for me, I trust the next two 570 00:28:16,910 --> 00:28:18,270 shoes on the list a little bit more. 571 00:28:19,310 --> 00:28:22,510 But it's still a great shoe. It's still stable, It's firmed 572 00:28:22,510 --> 00:28:24,350 up a little bit. It's got some guide rails. 573 00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:26,670 It, it kind of, again, it checks all those boxes. 574 00:28:26,670 --> 00:28:28,150 We're kind of splitting hairs here now. 575 00:28:28,430 --> 00:28:30,910 Yeah, I'm. I'm totally with you on that. 576 00:28:31,230 --> 00:28:35,470 Why I put the Guide 16 in there which the Guide 16 was great. 577 00:28:35,470 --> 00:28:38,550 It's gotten lighter. It's gotten snappier, like the 578 00:28:38,550 --> 00:28:42,150 ride and and guide are so much better and. 579 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,400 I can't believe their stack height is as high as is. 580 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,840 They're very nimble shoes. Like, I feel like not a lot of 581 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,160 shoes there, but in like a good way, right? 582 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,440 I think you, you and I had the same experience with the ride. 583 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,600 We were doing workouts in a daily training shoe and we're 584 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,960 like, this is a great shoe. The guide is not. 585 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,520 I think the other two shoes are going to beat this out and I'll 586 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,840 explain why. But for me, it beats the Rocky 587 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,540 because it's. It's got full lengths. 588 00:29:06,540 --> 00:29:10,060 The side walls are integrated really well and I really feel 589 00:29:10,060 --> 00:29:14,220 that medial not wedge that what's that called that plastic 590 00:29:14,220 --> 00:29:16,580 thing. I really feel that that is 591 00:29:16,580 --> 00:29:20,900 pretty intense for me. So that that really the midfoot 592 00:29:20,900 --> 00:29:24,980 and the heel that I found that I noticed that piece the entire 593 00:29:25,260 --> 00:29:27,940 time. So people that want that classic 594 00:29:27,940 --> 00:29:30,580 medial post feeling, even though it's not technically a post. 595 00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:32,940 They're going to really, really like that. 596 00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:36,820 Plus the side walls, the thing being just like, it's a little 597 00:29:36,820 --> 00:29:38,980 stiffer. There's just a lot of elements 598 00:29:38,980 --> 00:29:42,180 that make it very both guided and very stable. 599 00:29:43,300 --> 00:29:46,060 And it's more noticeable for me than the Arakis. 600 00:29:46,060 --> 00:29:48,860 That's why it beats it out. Solid, absolutely solid. 601 00:29:48,860 --> 00:29:52,500 Shoot, the guide has come a long, long, long, long way. 602 00:29:52,660 --> 00:29:57,300 So yeah, that's why I think that one and we're probably just 603 00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,900 going to switch over here, but you ready for the next one? 604 00:30:00,790 --> 00:30:07,070 Come on, 123 Brooks Adrenaline. Oh, it's gonna be fun. 605 00:30:07,550 --> 00:30:09,470 All right, I'm gonna go first on this one. 606 00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:13,070 So the reason I put the adrenaline this high up here, 607 00:30:13,070 --> 00:30:17,190 I'm gonna say this isn't necessarily a good thing because 608 00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:21,110 for me, it's actually the stability is really, really 609 00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:22,950 aggressive. I feel like it's gotten more 610 00:30:22,950 --> 00:30:25,550 almost a little bit more aggressive over the years, even 611 00:30:25,550 --> 00:30:29,830 with the the. Guide rails because per my 612 00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:32,550 understanding there's actually still a medial post in here. 613 00:30:32,550 --> 00:30:34,830 So there's a guide rails and a medial post. 614 00:30:35,070 --> 00:30:38,190 At least that's what we were told and it the stability with 615 00:30:38,190 --> 00:30:42,070 like the the sole flare mildly and kind of how thick and like 616 00:30:42,070 --> 00:30:46,030 clunky the heel is. It's got a really rigid heel, 617 00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:48,590 rigid heel. Midfoot is good and then 618 00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:50,630 forefoot is very is fairly neutral. 619 00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:53,510 Nothing to write home about in the forefoot, but the heel and 620 00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:57,190 the midfoot, especially heel are so rigid it's almost like. 621 00:30:58,390 --> 00:31:01,590 Too stable for me. I think it's probably added with 622 00:31:01,590 --> 00:31:04,910 the the higher heel drop but that's why it kind of it beat 623 00:31:04,910 --> 00:31:09,310 out in terms of the stability rating, the guide just because 624 00:31:09,310 --> 00:31:10,830 it was. It just feels way more 625 00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:12,870 aggressive. Like a lot of times people have 626 00:31:12,870 --> 00:31:15,230 always put this as like a moderate stability shoe. 627 00:31:15,230 --> 00:31:18,670 I would have put this high for the heel for sure and that, but 628 00:31:18,670 --> 00:31:22,190 that's just me kind of what I've what I felt for a while even 629 00:31:22,190 --> 00:31:23,630 with the integration of the guide rails. 630 00:31:23,910 --> 00:31:25,420 What about you? Yeah. 631 00:31:25,420 --> 00:31:27,300 So why the Stinson? Yeah, with the Hocus. 632 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:28,540 Stinson. I should have grabbed mine. 633 00:31:28,540 --> 00:31:31,060 Do you have yours there? I do have mine, Yeah, 'cause 634 00:31:31,060 --> 00:31:32,980 mine. I know exactly where mine are. 635 00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:34,740 I just can't. I don't have them with an arm's 636 00:31:34,740 --> 00:31:36,420 reach. Yeah, so go for it. 637 00:31:36,620 --> 00:31:38,820 I'll I'll yeah, walk people through this thing. 638 00:31:38,820 --> 00:31:41,940 And this is a very interesting take, 'cause I'm about to like, 639 00:31:41,940 --> 00:31:47,180 almost reverse what I said in the previous one, but it's a 640 00:31:47,180 --> 00:31:48,860 shoe that's very trustworthy, right? 641 00:31:48,860 --> 00:31:51,380 It's an all terrain shoe. The legs on there work pretty 642 00:31:51,380 --> 00:31:53,800 well. There's a very wide base through 643 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,080 the mid, sole through. There's a lot of sole flaring 644 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,040 going on. The upper actually does 645 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:02,160 reinforce pretty well, like it's a pretty trustworthy, solid, 646 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,720 stable shoe. And I mean that's one of the 647 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:06,280 reasons why it's so high on this list. 648 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,440 And it's going to be #1 for Klein because there's only one 649 00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,760 more shoe left. So it made #2 for me and it made 650 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,400 number one for Klein. So with that said, very 651 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,960 trustworthy. Good traction, good upper good 652 00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,960 sole flare. The one thing that kind of took 653 00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:26,000 this away for me and didn't make it #1, was simply there is so 654 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,880 much foam. So it was kind of like the 655 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,000 ground feel and the proprioceptive part of what is 656 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,600 that subjective element like you were hinting at with the guide 657 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,960 of like stable, what you feel there, you know that presence. 658 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:45,360 And so, like, it was a very stable footed shoe, but it 659 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,230 didn't exactly, it didn't always like feel like it because there 660 00:32:49,230 --> 00:32:53,110 was just so much foam. So like they did a great job of 661 00:32:53,110 --> 00:32:55,630 checking all the boxes they needed to, especially for how 662 00:32:55,630 --> 00:32:58,750 much foam was there. But there's just so much there, 663 00:32:58,750 --> 00:33:01,070 like that's the only thing and it's like there is still give to 664 00:33:01,070 --> 00:33:02,830 it. And that's the only reason why 665 00:33:02,830 --> 00:33:07,300 it didn't make #1 for me. But otherwise, I mean that shoe 666 00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:09,940 did a great job of checking all the boxes you would look for in 667 00:33:09,940 --> 00:33:11,820 a stable shoe. Double check. 668 00:33:11,820 --> 00:33:13,020 I can't remember this off top of my head. 669 00:33:13,020 --> 00:33:15,340 I remember the stack height was crazy and I feel like it's 670 00:33:15,380 --> 00:33:18,220 wrong. Yeah, 43 and a half, 38, 1/2 and 671 00:33:18,220 --> 00:33:21,340 I feel like that's that sounds about right for what I I feel 672 00:33:21,340 --> 00:33:23,820 like that's low for what this thing actually feels like. 673 00:33:23,820 --> 00:33:27,020 I feel like I'm. I feel like I'm almost almost on 674 00:33:27,020 --> 00:33:30,060 par with something like the Primex. 675 00:33:30,790 --> 00:33:32,230 Well, maybe. Maybe not. 676 00:33:32,230 --> 00:33:33,790 I forget the sidewalls come up. Super. 677 00:33:33,790 --> 00:33:35,270 The sidewalls come up really high. 678 00:33:35,270 --> 00:33:36,990 Yeah. Yeah, that's very fair. 679 00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:41,750 All right, So I put. What did I just say? 680 00:33:42,150 --> 00:33:44,310 The. I can't even remember. 681 00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:45,990 Wait, wait. My. 682 00:33:46,430 --> 00:33:49,070 My list is so dishonorized now. Wait, yeah. 683 00:33:49,150 --> 00:33:51,310 So you're on #1. You're on #1 now? 684 00:33:51,350 --> 00:33:52,990 Yeah. So there's only one so we don't 685 00:33:52,990 --> 00:33:54,390 have to reveal it. Let's just do it. 686 00:33:54,550 --> 00:33:57,630 Well, now let's just do it. 123 Guide 16 seven. 687 00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:58,830 Yeah, there we go. OK. 688 00:33:59,460 --> 00:34:01,780 So I'm gonna go after this because technically the newest 689 00:34:01,780 --> 00:34:05,220 Stinson has the same stability element that the Gevoita has 690 00:34:05,220 --> 00:34:06,980 now. So it's got this thing called an 691 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:08,980 H Yeah, whatever. I can't. 692 00:34:09,380 --> 00:34:11,340 I can barely speak English. Give me please give me. 693 00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:12,659 It's my only language so give me a break. 694 00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:16,500 So the Gaviota, it's they're using the same stability 695 00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:18,580 element, this thing called an H frame which I'm still not 696 00:34:18,580 --> 00:34:21,580 exactly sure what it is but I know that it's got it's the 697 00:34:21,580 --> 00:34:25,540 integration of side walls in the heel and the forefoot width and 698 00:34:25,820 --> 00:34:30,190 pod especially what there's like pods like like holes in the 699 00:34:30,230 --> 00:34:32,070 yeah. There's like holes in the middle 700 00:34:32,070 --> 00:34:34,510 of the thing and it goes through the mid foot to additional 701 00:34:34,510 --> 00:34:37,190 stiffness. I just found this like I was so 702 00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:39,750 surprised because I expected a shoe of this stack height to be 703 00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:43,630 unstable and it's probably it's the most stable trail strike 704 00:34:43,630 --> 00:34:45,469 I've used. I had no stability issues 705 00:34:45,469 --> 00:34:47,150 totally. The only thing is this suit shoe 706 00:34:47,150 --> 00:34:50,750 is so freaking heavy it's a lot. I wish there was a lighter. 707 00:34:50,750 --> 00:34:53,750 I would like you make a lighter version of this Hoco please. 708 00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:55,989 It'd be one of the few stability trail shoes, please. 709 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,000 Like just make it like 2 ounces, like 10 oz. 710 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,560 That's not too much to ask. Come on. 711 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,480 So, but yeah, it is. So there's zero flexibility to 712 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,480 it in any direction. Very high side walls and very 713 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,680 rocker. I felt like if I wear this 714 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:14,280 thing, I don't feel any of that post feeling, but I feel very, 715 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:16,600 very, very centered and I was really surprised. 716 00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:19,960 Again, not your classic stability shoe, although if we 717 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,180 did it based on the elements. It is technically now if you're 718 00:35:23,220 --> 00:35:25,180 putting in the same ring as the gabiota. 719 00:35:25,260 --> 00:35:29,300 So just because it combines guidance and stability so well, 720 00:35:29,580 --> 00:35:32,660 it threw out the length of the shoe and not just in one place. 721 00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:35,460 That's why I'm putting this as my number one pick. 722 00:35:35,460 --> 00:35:37,820 Just cause, yeah, they did a It's a great job. 723 00:35:37,820 --> 00:35:40,500 It's just so heavy, very. So it's a great. 724 00:35:40,660 --> 00:35:43,220 Shoe it's It's a great shoe. They're one of my favorites this 725 00:35:43,220 --> 00:35:45,900 year. Yeah, which I was very I had the 726 00:35:45,900 --> 00:35:47,260 same. I was very surprised, like I 727 00:35:47,260 --> 00:35:48,940 shouldn't like this. It's heavy, but I do. 728 00:35:49,810 --> 00:35:51,770 All right. Guide 16, which we were again we 729 00:35:51,770 --> 00:35:53,530 were super do. I was 16 or 15. 730 00:35:53,770 --> 00:35:55,410 That's the 16, yeah. Yeah, the 15. 731 00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:58,330 Was that like bright yellow one? Yeah, that was in solid shoe 732 00:35:58,330 --> 00:35:59,530 too. They're both great. 733 00:35:59,530 --> 00:36:02,530 Yeah. OK, so Guide 16, some of the 734 00:36:02,530 --> 00:36:04,810 things you were touching on earlier with the adrenaline and 735 00:36:04,810 --> 00:36:07,850 with the guide as well, when I think of stability, there is a 736 00:36:07,850 --> 00:36:10,450 subjective component to it as well, right? 737 00:36:10,450 --> 00:36:12,610 Like, like do I feel like something's there and does it 738 00:36:12,610 --> 00:36:16,360 feel like it's supporting me? And I felt like this post here 739 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:18,640 or this rim, I don't what do we call it? 740 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,080 It's a post right? Like that's and it's not like a 741 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:24,840 formal foam post, but it's. Yeah, well, it's a plastic leg, 742 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:26,400 Not shame. Yeah, it's not a shame. 743 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,640 Look this up. I'm just going to say audience 744 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,040 members. Yeah, Arc. 745 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:32,880 I think that's actually what they. 746 00:36:33,740 --> 00:36:36,060 The Holotech support, There we go. 747 00:36:36,060 --> 00:36:38,700 Holotech support. You can't dodge it. 748 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:40,540 There is no way you're going to dodge it. 749 00:36:40,540 --> 00:36:42,860 And I think because it was something that I could feel 750 00:36:42,860 --> 00:36:44,580 every single step, not a bad thing. 751 00:36:44,580 --> 00:36:48,860 Again, I like this shoot, but it just felt like that heel and 752 00:36:48,860 --> 00:36:52,380 midfoot, like I was just like, I'm here, you know, like I'm not 753 00:36:52,380 --> 00:36:54,660 like even though like, yes, your foot's going to do what it 754 00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:56,740 wants. But proprioceptively, what I was 755 00:36:56,740 --> 00:37:01,090 feeling like it was always there and it wasn't going away and I 756 00:37:01,090 --> 00:37:03,490 was transitioning forward. I was popping on the forefoot. 757 00:37:03,490 --> 00:37:07,090 Like it just subjectively felt like it was a little bit more 758 00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:08,730 stable through that mid foot and heel. 759 00:37:09,210 --> 00:37:12,170 And then on top of that, it's also a little bit lower to the 760 00:37:12,170 --> 00:37:14,490 ground as well compared to these other shoes. 761 00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:16,810 So everything is just that much more prominent. 762 00:37:16,810 --> 00:37:20,050 There's more ground feel. The upper has a little bit of 763 00:37:20,050 --> 00:37:22,370 stretch to it. So that probably could have been 764 00:37:22,370 --> 00:37:25,930 a little bit more, you know, quote UN quote stable, you know, 765 00:37:25,930 --> 00:37:28,890 compared to some of these other shoes as far as lockdown goes. 766 00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:32,090 But for me it was more that proprioceptive element and what 767 00:37:32,090 --> 00:37:36,690 I'm feeling underneath me. And so as much as we don't 768 00:37:36,690 --> 00:37:40,690 always include subjective data, you know, it just felt more 769 00:37:40,690 --> 00:37:43,290 stable to me from that road standpoint. 770 00:37:43,290 --> 00:37:47,650 Now the Stinson as far as experience goes and taking it 771 00:37:47,650 --> 00:37:50,610 wherever the heck I want to take it, that's going to win. 772 00:37:51,170 --> 00:37:53,770 But as far as what I felt like, if we're just going like 773 00:37:53,770 --> 00:37:58,430 straight line, you go run, tell me what you feel, I would 774 00:37:58,430 --> 00:38:02,190 probably go guide 16. And so that's the reason why 775 00:38:02,190 --> 00:38:06,470 it's so high up on my list and it's just because you cannot 776 00:38:06,470 --> 00:38:09,030 avoid it. No matter what you do like you 777 00:38:09,030 --> 00:38:11,910 will feel that and like you're healing your mid foot that 778 00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:15,030 medial section, it's there and it's not going away. 779 00:38:16,710 --> 00:38:19,670 So that's that's the reason why it was so high on the list for 780 00:38:19,670 --> 00:38:22,350 me. But I do agree as far as why 781 00:38:22,350 --> 00:38:25,530 that Stinson is so high up as well and I was very curious 782 00:38:25,530 --> 00:38:28,050 before this episode to see where you ranked it considering the 783 00:38:28,050 --> 00:38:32,490 Rahi is kind of the traditional stability model for Hoka and I 784 00:38:32,490 --> 00:38:34,890 felt like it was almost a little bit of a hot take putting it so 785 00:38:34,890 --> 00:38:38,690 high up, but we both agreed so. I I I totally agree with you on 786 00:38:38,690 --> 00:38:41,730 this just because it's not that Rahi is not a stability shoe, 787 00:38:41,730 --> 00:38:45,930 it's just I think the softer element plus the Stinson's like 788 00:38:45,930 --> 00:38:50,450 full length, stable elements, guidance elements on both the 789 00:38:50,450 --> 00:38:52,970 medial and lateral side just took it. 790 00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:56,060 It just takes it to another level and not in a way that I'm 791 00:38:56,060 --> 00:38:57,460 like I feel a pose under my foot. 792 00:38:57,460 --> 00:38:59,940 But it's like when you're running, you're like I feel very 793 00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:05,300 centered and it was very obvious in not a bad way but in like a 794 00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:09,180 very obvious like whoa. I'm kept in what like 1 plain 795 00:39:09,180 --> 00:39:11,340 emotion here. This is very interesting. 796 00:39:11,780 --> 00:39:14,860 So for those that need trail stability, which there's not a 797 00:39:14,860 --> 00:39:17,740 lot of stability trail shoes, the Stinson's kind of that. 798 00:39:18,330 --> 00:39:22,170 One major one that if you can get over the weight, it'll 799 00:39:22,170 --> 00:39:24,650 definitely keep you centered for longer miles you just got to 800 00:39:24,650 --> 00:39:25,530 get. You're going to have to have 801 00:39:25,530 --> 00:39:27,770 some strong hip flexors. So yeah, you got to be able to 802 00:39:27,770 --> 00:39:29,610 lift that thing. You lift that thing. 803 00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:32,130 I was like, oh God, by the way, super great. 804 00:39:32,130 --> 00:39:38,170 Like wear that and then go like wear the the the Xenol 2 right 805 00:39:38,170 --> 00:39:41,770 afterwards and like, wow, this is so like really light. 806 00:39:41,770 --> 00:39:43,850 So yeah, really good contrast too. 807 00:39:44,450 --> 00:39:47,470 So. I, I, I want to jump into a 808 00:39:47,470 --> 00:39:50,710 common question after talking to this Bach put this in your sole 809 00:39:50,710 --> 00:39:53,830 credit to to him because one of the most common questions we get 810 00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:56,510 now that we've talked through this and kind of going, hey, and 811 00:39:56,510 --> 00:39:58,550 hopefully what you've seen is this is kind of how we're 812 00:39:58,550 --> 00:40:01,190 grading stability. And you may have noticed that 813 00:40:01,190 --> 00:40:05,190 traditional stability labels did, it kind of did but didn't 814 00:40:05,190 --> 00:40:08,150 100% match with what we found to be most stable. 815 00:40:08,150 --> 00:40:09,430 And there's a subjective component. 816 00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:10,870 We're trying to defend certain elements. 817 00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:14,270 But a common question we get is, hey, if I've if I'm running in a 818 00:40:14,270 --> 00:40:16,510 neutral shoe, but I want something more stable for a 819 00:40:16,510 --> 00:40:19,790 longer effort or for marathon training, should I try a 820 00:40:19,790 --> 00:40:21,870 stability shoe? So before I answer, David, 821 00:40:21,870 --> 00:40:23,430 what's your answer to that question? 822 00:40:23,630 --> 00:40:24,990 Yeah. And I think that's a great 823 00:40:24,990 --> 00:40:29,190 question and it's a great consideration because we all 824 00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:33,990 know that over the course of a long run or long effort, our 825 00:40:33,990 --> 00:40:37,120 mechanics might change. You might fatigue, you might 826 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:39,920 start just striking a little different, pulling back a little 827 00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:42,240 different rise like that heel rise might be a little 828 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:45,640 different, your arms, your core, thoracic spine. 829 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:48,080 Things might just start changing a little bit more. 830 00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:53,000 And so there's thoughts to you know potential consideration to 831 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,960 change the footwear on your foot to just help mitigate some of 832 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,000 those things. I at least at the at least at 833 00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,680 the foot and angle. At least at the foot and angle, 834 00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,820 yeah, Yeah. And I think there's some merit 835 00:41:03,820 --> 00:41:05,940 to it. I don't think I would 836 00:41:05,940 --> 00:41:08,940 immediately jump ship and go like, OK, neutral. 837 00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:10,900 Now I need stability just because I'm running farther. 838 00:41:10,900 --> 00:41:14,420 I I wouldn't do that. But from personal experience, 839 00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,140 especially with these more compliant foams looking at a 840 00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:21,780 shoe, and this is something that I've had to pretty much try and 841 00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:25,660 reason with myself and try and figure out why I'm like, what am 842 00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:27,420 I feeling? Why am I feeling this? 843 00:41:27,950 --> 00:41:30,550 And what is going to make me make my decision? 844 00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:34,110 And this is a shoe from the Nike Vapor Fly, next percent three 845 00:41:34,110 --> 00:41:37,670 and the Saucony endorphin Elite. I think those are two very 846 00:41:37,670 --> 00:41:39,510 classic examples of this argument. 847 00:41:40,030 --> 00:41:43,590 Both good shoes, both compliant foams, a lot of resilience to 848 00:41:43,590 --> 00:41:47,270 the foams, both carbon plated, both have a four foot rocker, 849 00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:50,030 both in the racing category. And you're going to see on the 850 00:41:50,030 --> 00:41:52,390 feet of people at racing races, right? 851 00:41:52,990 --> 00:41:55,390 Like they they check all of the boxes, but there are slight 852 00:41:55,390 --> 00:41:58,410 differences. And the vapor flies a little bit 853 00:41:58,410 --> 00:41:59,770 lighter, a little bit more nimble. 854 00:42:00,450 --> 00:42:04,130 Forefoot, midfoot, heel, not quite as wide. 855 00:42:04,130 --> 00:42:05,730 It's a little bit more streamlined. 856 00:42:05,730 --> 00:42:07,810 There's a little bit more traction in the forefoot. 857 00:42:08,050 --> 00:42:10,930 The overall design of this shoe is slightly more aggressive. 858 00:42:12,090 --> 00:42:13,090 There's still a lot of give to IT. 859 00:42:13,090 --> 00:42:16,170 People run marathons in that shoe all of the time, but that's 860 00:42:16,170 --> 00:42:19,130 just in comparison to the two when we look at the endorphin 861 00:42:19,130 --> 00:42:21,490 elite. Much flatter Rd. profile, but 862 00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:24,530 it's a wide base. The lockdown in that upper is 863 00:42:24,530 --> 00:42:28,650 very secure and it just kind of keeps you centered and Roxy 864 00:42:28,650 --> 00:42:30,250 forward for you. Pretty much. 865 00:42:30,930 --> 00:42:33,010 Great sidewalls, Great sidewalls. 866 00:42:33,330 --> 00:42:35,090 Length of that the whole length of that shoe. 867 00:42:35,130 --> 00:42:37,250 Yeah, and so like where I'm going with this, right? 868 00:42:37,250 --> 00:42:41,730 It's like 2 very similar shoes in theory, but the experience on 869 00:42:41,730 --> 00:42:46,490 the endorphin elite is just more stable for me at the marathon 870 00:42:46,490 --> 00:42:48,680 distance. It's not a question anymore. 871 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,240 I like the endorphin elite. Like it's just it's working for 872 00:42:51,240 --> 00:42:53,760 me and those long rhythmic pacing sessions. 873 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:55,800 Half marathon, I'm still trying to debate. 874 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,160 I think I am leaning more endorphin elite now after the 875 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,200 last half marathon I did. But under half marathon I'm 876 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:02,480 definitely going to choose Vaporfly. 877 00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,560 And so that's a classic example of my mechanics are changing. 878 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:10,400 I just want to be able to last and just keep running 879 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,320 rhythmically and just do anything I can to help mitigate 880 00:43:13,320 --> 00:43:19,910 some of that fatigue and. The socketing endorphin elite is 881 00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:23,190 not necessarily a stability shoe by any means. 882 00:43:23,710 --> 00:43:27,110 So that's not necessarily it's not a big jump you're staying 883 00:43:27,110 --> 00:43:29,510 within the same category, but you're kind of changing some 884 00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:33,030 small elements that may work for you and the only way you're 885 00:43:33,030 --> 00:43:35,230 truly going to know that is to figure it out. 886 00:43:36,190 --> 00:43:38,710 And so that's one of those things where like you try a 887 00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:40,710 shoe, it works, maybe it doesn't. 888 00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:42,950 If it doesn't work then, then it doesn't work. 889 00:43:43,530 --> 00:43:47,330 You know, but I think it's you just have to see what feels good 890 00:43:47,330 --> 00:43:50,570 for you and trust intuitively inside of what of your head. 891 00:43:51,530 --> 00:43:53,890 I'm enjoying this better for XYZ. 892 00:43:53,970 --> 00:43:57,330 I'm going to use it for XYZ. Don't let marketing, don't let 893 00:43:57,370 --> 00:44:01,490 any of the other stuff sway you. I'm, I'm totally with you on 894 00:44:01,490 --> 00:44:04,370 this and I think that analogy was probably the best thing of 895 00:44:04,570 --> 00:44:06,690 you don't necessarily need to go in a totally different category. 896 00:44:06,690 --> 00:44:09,330 If you're wearing neutral shoes and you're like you know I want 897 00:44:09,330 --> 00:44:11,530 something a little bit more stable for longer distances 898 00:44:11,530 --> 00:44:14,130 because something concerned about stay in the same category 899 00:44:14,130 --> 00:44:16,450 and get something that we call a stable neutral shoe. 900 00:44:16,450 --> 00:44:18,730 That means you're not necessarily going to these shoes 901 00:44:18,730 --> 00:44:21,170 that are categorized that have posts or these very aggressive 902 00:44:21,170 --> 00:44:23,890 stability matters measures get into something that maybe has 903 00:44:23,890 --> 00:44:26,890 something a little bit more that's kind of guidance based 904 00:44:26,890 --> 00:44:29,290 like we talked about side walls for example, which again the 905 00:44:29,290 --> 00:44:32,930 Vimero in the well kind of does fairly well. 906 00:44:32,930 --> 00:44:35,050 In the heel, maybe not that's not the best example. 907 00:44:35,050 --> 00:44:39,410 What's a better example of a? Stable, neutral, I mean the 908 00:44:39,410 --> 00:44:43,050 Stinson I guess like I mean but they did market that technically 909 00:44:43,050 --> 00:44:45,010 that that has a stability element. 910 00:44:45,010 --> 00:44:46,890 They did. They did say it was like 911 00:44:47,410 --> 00:44:50,050 partially stability. They didn't outright say 912 00:44:50,050 --> 00:44:55,710 stability shoe, but no, they did not let me throw this. 913 00:44:55,710 --> 00:44:58,710 Something should have been better prepared for this. 914 00:44:58,830 --> 00:45:02,190 I thought about this earlier, but all right, let's do this. 915 00:45:02,190 --> 00:45:04,510 I'm going to throw this out there within the same vein. 916 00:45:04,750 --> 00:45:06,390 So let me throw this super blast. 917 00:45:06,390 --> 00:45:09,600 In there, I was thinking the same shoe this super glass is 918 00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,160 definitely is like is to me stable. 919 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,040 It's stable, neutral. It's not a stability shoe, but 920 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,640 it's got really good side walls. It's a little stiffer and the 921 00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,520 way the foam is set up, it just kind of collapses and keeps you 922 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,120 really centered here. So this might be a great option 923 00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,040 going. You know what, I'm really liking 924 00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,040 some of these more bouncy kind of super foams, but maybe 925 00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:32,640 they're not stable enough for me to use all the time or I just 926 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,400 need something that I can handle going longer. 927 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,440 But it's still a neutral shoe. It's just got stable elements to 928 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,080 it. the Super Blast is a great example there. 929 00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:42,760 There are other shoes. I think I was kind of looking at 930 00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,360 the the Nimbus 25 and I was, I remember Nathan and I argued 931 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:49,720 about this, but a shoe that's got a really wide base to it, 932 00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,120 it's got side walls, it's very rocker, it's gonna keep, it's a 933 00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,440 guided, it's guidance space, but it's still neutral. 934 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,440 So I think those are very good options going. 935 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,050 You don't actually have to jump category into a true stability 936 00:46:02,050 --> 00:46:05,730 shoe, but finding elements in neutral shoes that make it more 937 00:46:05,730 --> 00:46:07,530 stable. So if you look at our page that 938 00:46:07,530 --> 00:46:10,450 box done a great job with looking at stable neutral shoes, 939 00:46:10,650 --> 00:46:13,890 you'll find some stuff in the same category that won't be as 940 00:46:13,890 --> 00:46:16,330 aggressive as a jump. And correct me if I'm wrong, 941 00:46:16,330 --> 00:46:18,980 David, kind of one of the concerns of thought that 942 00:46:18,980 --> 00:46:22,020 stability shoes are bad. We just concerned when you make 943 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:24,660 a big jump between categories when you've been sticking with 944 00:46:24,660 --> 00:46:28,180 one for a while that you got to take time to ease into that even 945 00:46:28,180 --> 00:46:30,780 if you need more stability, it can be helpful to unless you 946 00:46:30,780 --> 00:46:32,300 have some kind of injury or something you're coming back 947 00:46:32,300 --> 00:46:35,420 from, you generally should kind of ease into things. 948 00:46:35,420 --> 00:46:39,300 Doing sudden jumps between categories either direction can 949 00:46:39,300 --> 00:46:42,220 cause irritations if you overdo it and don't let your body adapt 950 00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:44,500 it. Be my opinion, and correct me if 951 00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:47,040 I'm wrong, it's a smaller transition. 952 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:50,040 If you go like add a stable element to the same category, 953 00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,000 like side walls or a little bit more stiffness, I think that's 954 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:55,480 going to be a lot easier transition and have less. 955 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,200 Not to scare people but have less a chance of something 956 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,160 happening or something interrupting your training. 957 00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,840 Agree or disagree? No, I'd I'd agree with that. 958 00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:04,400 I mean it's definitely anecdotal. 959 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,440 I don't have any any kind of data to back that. 960 00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:12,280 But that's, I mean small change, you know, it's it's easier to 961 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,640 make a small change than it is to make a big change. 962 00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,280 And subjectively, it's small. Change is not going to feel as 963 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,920 dramatic, right? Small changes generally tend to 964 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,680 make less of an impact in terms of your how you adapt to things. 965 00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,600 Larger changes take longer times to adapt to. 966 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:33,120 And if you add a stimulus too quickly without giving yourself 967 00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,800 time to adapt, that's where you might see poor adaptation. 968 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:39,440 So that's again not really any data on that, but that's based 969 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,560 on kind of some basic principles is kind of how I would I would 970 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,950 base that. So I think we're on the same 971 00:47:45,950 --> 00:47:48,110 element with that. So again summary, you don't 972 00:47:48,110 --> 00:47:49,790 necessarily have to get a stability shoe. 973 00:47:49,910 --> 00:47:53,270 There's now so many different options now for stable neutral 974 00:47:53,270 --> 00:47:57,750 shoes, take a look at our guide on on our on our website and it 975 00:47:57,750 --> 00:48:00,110 will give you lots of good options to potentially consider 976 00:48:00,110 --> 00:48:02,510 a smaller transition that might even be more comfortable. 977 00:48:02,510 --> 00:48:05,190 Not saying civil issues are not comfortable, but certain people 978 00:48:05,190 --> 00:48:07,510 like them, certain people don't do well with them. 979 00:48:07,550 --> 00:48:10,190 So that's the way it goes. Now let's let's take a step. 980 00:48:10,190 --> 00:48:11,970 Unless you have, unless you have something. 981 00:48:12,130 --> 00:48:14,650 Oh, it's nothing shoe related. I just want to say that I 982 00:48:14,650 --> 00:48:17,290 appreciate that you have the bio mechanics book right behind you. 983 00:48:18,330 --> 00:48:20,450 That's a Newman, right? Yes. 984 00:48:20,450 --> 00:48:22,570 The classic Newman that I cite all the time. 985 00:48:22,570 --> 00:48:25,410 It's a solid book. I feel like, yeah, it's a solid. 986 00:48:25,410 --> 00:48:27,730 But we get that because we're both went to West University of 987 00:48:27,730 --> 00:48:30,250 Health Sciences and who introduced that first? 988 00:48:30,250 --> 00:48:31,970 Was that Doctor Fairlie? Was that fairly? 989 00:48:31,970 --> 00:48:34,490 For me, yeah. Yeah, that was fairly for me 990 00:48:34,490 --> 00:48:35,810 too. It was like quick early 991 00:48:36,130 --> 00:48:37,730 suggestions. So I cite Newman all the time. 992 00:48:37,730 --> 00:48:41,890 But yeah, Jeff, yeah, Newman saw Buck. 993 00:48:41,930 --> 00:48:45,450 So let's get into a little bit more of our PT mindset when 994 00:48:45,450 --> 00:48:48,010 thinking about the things that we've just talked about and our 995 00:48:48,010 --> 00:48:52,010 lists. How would different injuries 996 00:48:52,010 --> 00:48:54,050 affect that list? So I'm going to choose three 997 00:48:54,050 --> 00:48:58,330 common ones related to just the kind of classic thing where you 998 00:48:58,330 --> 00:49:01,410 might need to consider some more stability if you've had one of 999 00:49:01,410 --> 00:49:02,970 these. So a history of these, one of 1000 00:49:02,970 --> 00:49:04,850 the greatest predictors of having this again. 1001 00:49:05,210 --> 00:49:07,610 So I'm going to choose poster tibial tendinopathy because 1002 00:49:07,610 --> 00:49:09,450 they're usually tendinopathies and not itis. 1003 00:49:10,220 --> 00:49:13,660 Achilles sentinopathy, and then the other side, chronic ankle 1004 00:49:13,660 --> 00:49:16,700 instability or a history of like repeated ankle sprains. 1005 00:49:16,940 --> 00:49:22,420 How would those three impact your least to most stable here, 1006 00:49:22,420 --> 00:49:23,660 if at all? Yeah. 1007 00:49:23,660 --> 00:49:26,180 I think if we just got to pay attention to how things are 1008 00:49:26,180 --> 00:49:28,900 moving, how things are stabilizing, obviously it 1009 00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:32,220 depends and mechanics of the individual will dictate a lot of 1010 00:49:32,220 --> 00:49:34,340 this. But when I look at a shoe like 1011 00:49:34,340 --> 00:49:36,500 the Rebel, when there's just a lot of give under the foot 1012 00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:38,460 there, you're going to have a very quick pronation moment 1013 00:49:38,460 --> 00:49:40,260 there. And you're going to be able to 1014 00:49:40,260 --> 00:49:42,420 stabilize that. So if you are having tip post 1015 00:49:42,420 --> 00:49:44,940 issues, that might not be the shoe for you. 1016 00:49:45,580 --> 00:49:48,380 Not to say that you need a stability shoe, but just again, 1017 00:49:48,380 --> 00:49:51,340 like maybe look at something that's a little less compliant 1018 00:49:51,340 --> 00:49:55,900 and spongy and something like the Cyclone, which is a very 1019 00:49:55,900 --> 00:50:01,900 similar shoe but just has a little bit more around it that 1020 00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:04,780 might work better for you, Cyclone 2 from Topo being. 1021 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:10,480 In that same general category. And that that might be a subtle 1022 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:14,240 but potentially helpful switch for someone that's having issues 1023 00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:16,360 with things like that. If they truly like that 1024 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,720 experience they're getting out of a shoe like that, but they 1025 00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:23,640 just can't handle the shoe. But the tip post, I mean, 1026 00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,040 there's so many things that can go into it, right? 1027 00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,840 Like if you don't have great hip stability, don't have good core 1028 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,680 stability, like like it's not always strictly an ankle issue. 1029 00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,040 And that I think that's what makes it hard to answer some of 1030 00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:39,280 these questions. But that could be an example of 1031 00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,080 a subtle switch. If you truly like the 1032 00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,240 experience, you're having an issue, get a shoe that's very 1033 00:50:43,240 --> 00:50:46,880 similar but just does it a little bit better As far as not 1034 00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:50,400 to say it's a better shoe, it's just it does does those elements 1035 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:51,880 that you might need a little bit better. 1036 00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,960 I'm totally with you. I think my list generally stays 1037 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,560 the same for those three because a lot of the stability out like 1038 00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,360 the Stinson was my number one choice and it wasn't because it 1039 00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:02,320 has a medial post. It's because it's stable on both 1040 00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:03,640 sides. For something with chronic 1041 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:07,070 ankless instability, which is a big challenge on trail, which 1042 00:51:07,070 --> 00:51:10,630 again it's because you're more often likely to kind of land and 1043 00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:12,950 go into that massive inversion position. 1044 00:51:13,110 --> 00:51:16,070 Having something that has a lot of lateral stability is equally 1045 00:51:16,070 --> 00:51:18,790 as important as medial. That's where we've talked about 1046 00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:21,550 the concept of central guidance rather than trying to bias you 1047 00:51:21,550 --> 00:51:24,150 One Direction or there's some people that do really well-being 1048 00:51:24,150 --> 00:51:26,630 biased that way, like for me being biased really laterally, 1049 00:51:26,630 --> 00:51:28,310 the heel often works really well. 1050 00:51:28,310 --> 00:51:32,670 That's why we'll do super well. Weirdly enough, with the Adidas 1051 00:51:32,670 --> 00:51:35,470 Primax strung to which should not be a stability shoe, but it 1052 00:51:35,470 --> 00:51:39,310 acts like that for me because it's so much lateral give to it. 1053 00:51:39,630 --> 00:51:43,470 But I think for a lot of these because those shoes as they get 1054 00:51:43,470 --> 00:51:47,390 higher tend to be more centrally stable, I'm definitely with 1055 00:51:47,390 --> 00:51:49,070 that. I'd be a little cautious with 1056 00:51:49,070 --> 00:51:52,310 chronic ankle instability and maybe something like the Guide 1057 00:51:52,310 --> 00:51:54,190 16 just because of that medial pose. 1058 00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:56,830 But I don't think it. Yeah, I don't think it 1059 00:51:56,830 --> 00:51:59,350 necessarily inverts you too much, but that the list might 1060 00:51:59,350 --> 00:52:01,830 shift a little bit where the Keanu 30 might be a little bit 1061 00:52:01,830 --> 00:52:04,870 higher because of the it's also very centrally based with a lot 1062 00:52:04,870 --> 00:52:09,390 of lateral soul flare, lot of like high lateral side walls. 1063 00:52:09,710 --> 00:52:14,390 The thing that I'd be cautious with moving into the Achilles, 1064 00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:17,390 that the post tube is like, yeah, medial stability, assuming 1065 00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:20,270 that that it's being driven by the foot. 1066 00:52:20,270 --> 00:52:22,390 If it's not being driven by the foot somewhere else, that 1067 00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:26,070 actually might irritate it more, potentially the Achilles stuff. 1068 00:52:26,070 --> 00:52:28,950 And I'm not going to drown on for hours because this is what 1069 00:52:28,950 --> 00:52:31,070 my dissertation is on. I'm learning more and more new 1070 00:52:31,070 --> 00:52:32,850 stuff. I would say having an 1071 00:52:32,850 --> 00:52:35,770 appropriate rocker becomes really, really important with 1072 00:52:35,770 --> 00:52:40,010 Achilles issue in addition to try to keep things more central. 1073 00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:43,530 But there's so many other elements besides the shoe for 1074 00:52:43,530 --> 00:52:46,690 Achilles stuff that I'm learning now that I'm actually like less 1075 00:52:47,050 --> 00:52:49,610 worried about The shoe as long as it's not doesn't have a 1076 00:52:50,210 --> 00:52:53,490 unstable heel or has it's unstable, it's not going to 1077 00:52:53,490 --> 00:52:57,290 change it that much. I'm going to keep going into how 1078 00:52:57,290 --> 00:52:59,570 it's a chronic tendency disorder and you have to load it 1079 00:52:59,570 --> 00:53:03,170 correctly over a long period of time and how much a shoe is 1080 00:53:03,170 --> 00:53:05,490 going to impact that. As long as it's decently stable, 1081 00:53:05,490 --> 00:53:07,730 not necessarily unstable, I think you'll be fine if you're 1082 00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:11,170 doing appropriate training, reloading the tendon correctly 1083 00:53:11,170 --> 00:53:12,650 and getting some of the elasticity back. 1084 00:53:13,250 --> 00:53:16,090 So it to be honest, doesn't change that much. 1085 00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:17,970 The only thing that makes me think a little bit differently 1086 00:53:17,970 --> 00:53:20,890 is the chronic ankle instability with the lateral instability, 1087 00:53:20,890 --> 00:53:24,050 but outside of that's fairly, fairly similar. 1088 00:53:25,130 --> 00:53:28,520 But what do you think? No, I agree completely. 1089 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:32,880 I think when we take a look at chronic ankle sprains or even 1090 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,320 those who don't have chronic ankle sprains, like if you just 1091 00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:38,400 have a tendency to kind of supinate and kind of move off of 1092 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,120 your foot laterally, you're going to want a little bit more. 1093 00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,760 Just just a little bit more build up, you know, laterally 1094 00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,080 there. That little soul flare might 1095 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:49,000 feel really nice and it's funny. Or side wall, yeah. 1096 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:50,400 Yeah. Or a side wall, yeah. 1097 00:53:51,020 --> 00:53:55,100 And when I was running in the Stinson, I have to agree. 1098 00:53:55,100 --> 00:53:57,700 I literally had a thought to myself, like try and roll your 1099 00:53:57,700 --> 00:53:59,580 ankle in this. Yeah, no way. 1100 00:53:59,780 --> 00:54:01,740 Like even though you're super high off the ground, it's like. 1101 00:54:02,940 --> 00:54:04,620 It almost feels like it's impossible. 1102 00:54:04,620 --> 00:54:07,300 Like it feels like if it was to happen, though, you'd be 1103 00:54:07,300 --> 00:54:08,780 wrecked. You'd be screwed. 1104 00:54:08,940 --> 00:54:11,140 You're not. You're done right. 1105 00:54:11,460 --> 00:54:13,660 There's no way. Hitting that angle is pretty 1106 00:54:13,660 --> 00:54:14,870 low. Yeah. 1107 00:54:15,270 --> 00:54:18,190 You have to get, you'll be fine up to an extreme angle. 1108 00:54:18,190 --> 00:54:20,190 Then you're screwed. There's it's no midpoint. 1109 00:54:20,190 --> 00:54:23,830 It's like yeah, that's it. You're going to it's going to 1110 00:54:23,830 --> 00:54:25,950 it's not your actual ankle is going to be fine. 1111 00:54:26,190 --> 00:54:28,670 It's going to be a high like a severe high ankle sprain with 1112 00:54:28,670 --> 00:54:30,750 the fibular and probably tibial fracture. 1113 00:54:30,750 --> 00:54:34,550 So that's like, that kind of reminds me of, like people, we 1114 00:54:34,550 --> 00:54:37,350 had somebody reach out to us that talked about they were 1115 00:54:37,350 --> 00:54:40,150 running in one of the original Primex and they rolled their 1116 00:54:40,150 --> 00:54:44,470 ankles so bad they had a, a distal tib fib fracture and 1117 00:54:44,470 --> 00:54:47,590 still love this shoe. And I'm like, dude, like usually 1118 00:54:47,590 --> 00:54:49,470 if you got a stack height this high, you got to have a wider 1119 00:54:49,470 --> 00:54:51,190 base. But people really liked it. 1120 00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:54,350 But off topic, so that's. Yeah. 1121 00:54:54,350 --> 00:54:57,790 So in an episode that was supposed to have us arguing and 1122 00:54:57,790 --> 00:54:59,510 bickering because we occasionally seem to like to 1123 00:54:59,510 --> 00:55:02,670 disagree, I think we totally agree there was some mild 1124 00:55:02,670 --> 00:55:05,550 variation. But I feel like that's totally 1125 00:55:05,550 --> 00:55:07,190 justified. If you look at kind of like the 1126 00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:11,040 general like subjective error of like kind of this for like the 1127 00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:14,360 subjective versatility, like variability makes total sense. 1128 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,440 But I feel like our list was basically the same. 1129 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,490 It was virtually the same, yeah. Yeah, outside. 1130 00:55:19,490 --> 00:55:23,170 So small subjective, yeah, some small changes I would say this 1131 00:55:23,290 --> 00:55:27,130 our our testing is therefore as inner inner. 1132 00:55:27,130 --> 00:55:30,690 Tester reliability, yeah, inner inner tester reliability. 1133 00:55:30,690 --> 00:55:32,690 So we're pretty solid here. Good thing we didn't have more 1134 00:55:32,690 --> 00:55:36,450 people to disagree with us. So we can publish this as good 1135 00:55:36,450 --> 00:55:39,130 reliability and move on, but we hope you enjoyed that. 1136 00:55:39,170 --> 00:55:40,730 That's something we were trying to bicker about. 1137 00:55:40,850 --> 00:55:43,610 Lateral bias, Yeah. In the that we hope you enjoyed 1138 00:55:43,610 --> 00:55:47,870 that and gives you kind of more of an idea into how we grade 1139 00:55:48,070 --> 00:55:50,150 stability and guidance because that was kind of the goal is 1140 00:55:50,150 --> 00:55:52,390 giving you a little background idea of, oh, this is how they're 1141 00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:55,910 doing that. And again, it's no longer about 1142 00:55:55,910 --> 00:55:57,510 just a post that makes things stable. 1143 00:55:57,510 --> 00:56:00,270 There's lots of other elements we talked about sidewalls, the 1144 00:56:00,270 --> 00:56:03,950 soul width, different stiffnesses, raw, all these kind 1145 00:56:03,950 --> 00:56:05,910 of things. We hope that was helpful and it 1146 00:56:05,910 --> 00:56:07,950 really helps you. But what you got to remember is 1147 00:56:07,950 --> 00:56:11,390 David and I, even though we had very similar lists or have 1148 00:56:11,950 --> 00:56:14,710 completely different mechanics and completely different 1149 00:56:14,710 --> 00:56:17,230 preferences. So we are not telling you to 1150 00:56:17,230 --> 00:56:19,910 base what we just said, like have your shoe choice be based 1151 00:56:19,910 --> 00:56:22,710 off what we said. It's to help you figure out how 1152 00:56:22,710 --> 00:56:25,540 do I guide myself and figure out what I need. 1153 00:56:25,740 --> 00:56:28,660 You might not do well with the post and you might do Super Bowl 1154 00:56:28,660 --> 00:56:30,540 sidewalls or you might be the opposite. 1155 00:56:30,700 --> 00:56:33,180 You might be someone that needs just a wider midfoot. 1156 00:56:33,580 --> 00:56:36,860 Find out what that is for you and we are going to challenge 1157 00:56:36,860 --> 00:56:39,380 you. Create your own list or take 1158 00:56:39,380 --> 00:56:41,700 what we just did and make your own list. 1159 00:56:41,700 --> 00:56:43,820 Does it compare to what we said? Is it different? 1160 00:56:44,180 --> 00:56:45,980 Try it. Let us know in whatever medium 1161 00:56:45,980 --> 00:56:47,860 you're you're listening or watching to us, whether it's 1162 00:56:47,860 --> 00:56:51,020 YouTube, Spotify, let us know. We're curious because we are 1163 00:56:51,020 --> 00:56:53,220 learning just as much as you. We're trying to share this stuff 1164 00:56:53,220 --> 00:56:55,540 with you, but it's also about learning as well. 1165 00:56:55,700 --> 00:56:58,940 So we appreciate you listening. Hope that was helpful and also 1166 00:56:58,940 --> 00:57:01,420 encourage you to keep following us on any social media channel 1167 00:57:01,420 --> 00:57:03,060 that you like. Obviously we're all over the 1168 00:57:03,060 --> 00:57:07,340 place, Instagram, Spotify, YouTube, all the different 1169 00:57:07,340 --> 00:57:08,460 places. Please check us out. 1170 00:57:08,460 --> 00:57:11,960 We'll always have new cool content and hopefully see you 1171 00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:12,240 soon.