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That's funny. 

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Hey everyone, welcome to the 
Doctors of Running Podcast, 

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where we, a group of Doctors of 
Physical Therapy, talk about the

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art and the science of the 
things we put on our feet. 

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Today, I have the honor of 
having on and getting to 

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introduce Dr. Ian Hunter, 
effectually known as Doc, both 

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by his students as well as the 
amazing running groups in Provo 

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that he has to run in. 
And we are going to have a 

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really fun talk about running by
mechanics, teaching, as well as 

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talking about footwear, because 
obviously that's kind of what we

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tend to talk about a little bit.
And thank you so much for coming

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on. 
Dr. Hunter is very well versed 

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in the running research. 
He is a professor at BYU in the 

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XI science department and is 
professor of biomechanics. 

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He's also done tons of research 
on not only running, but running

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footwear, especially everything 
from minimal shoes, now up to 

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some of the super shoes going on
right now. and is an author in 

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one of the papers. 
I cite most frequently on 

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bending stiffness, so I will 
probably bother you about 

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McClod's article at some point 
during this conversation. 

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And to top it off, is quite the 
runner in his own, having run, 

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you had the fastest marathon 
time in your age group back in 

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was that you win. 
When you're 220, right? 

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52 years old, whenever. 
I'm 54 now. 

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Got it. 
And how that, when, what you, is

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that when you ran the 220 or 
what was the time when you were 

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52? 
At 52, it was a 223.45. 

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Awesome. 
Awesome. 

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So we'll definitely have some 
training conversations because 

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my PhD is in Master's Runner, so
I might bother you about, hey, 

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what do you, what do you think? 
What other things could mass 

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other master owning? 
those of us who are aging? 

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learn from you, but I will let 
you introduce the rest of what 

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you want the audience to know. 
Okay. 

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Well, uh, started out with 
getting to BYU as a, um, a 

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runner, not a student. 
I wanted to do architecture and 

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I got to school and learned BYU 
doesn't have architecture. 

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So I definitely kind of came out
of high school, not really with 

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the right attitude for 
education, but um, a high school

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coach and a friend got me to 
start running my junior year and

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found I loved it, did well 
enough. 

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So I ran the 800 at BYU. 
And, uh, in my time there, I 

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realized I want to have the 
impact on people that my coach 

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had on me. 
My coach is, actually, high 

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school and college were amazing.
So I went in that direction, did

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a master, or math ed major 
coaching minor, masters of 

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education and coaching. 
And while I did that masters, I 

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got connected with a 
biomechanics professor at BYU. 

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And that got me interested in 
that field. 

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So after a year of high school 
teaching, I ended up going on 

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getting the PhD, and that was at
Oregon State, health and human 

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performance, but mainly focused 
on biomechanics. 

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And that just became that 
changed the direction of my life

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from then on to ended up 
fortunate to be back at BYU and 

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have loved that. 
So since 2001, I've been a 

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professor there. 
Nice. 

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And so so you finally took a 
break from BYU to go get your 

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PhD and then obviously you had 
to come back as well. 

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So just, uh, you know, the, the 
environment there is just the 

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perfect fit for my interests and
the combination of how much 

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teaching, how much research, and
then the, the coaches that I'd 

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already been connected with, the
teammates and, you know, 

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they're, I think we counted this
week. 

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There's 4 of my teammates are 
professors at BYU. 

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So there, you can see a lot of 
people are happy to come back 

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and, yeah, one would be 
Heddingrin that you probably are

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aware of. 
Yeah. 

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I don't know why anybody would 
ever want to move back to Provo,

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Utah. 
It's such a terrible place for 

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running and it's like not like 
there's a lot of amazing. 

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No, I'm just kidding. 
But yeah, that makes total 

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sense. 
Okay. 

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It's also funny to hear you say,
yeah, I didn't, I had no, did 

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not have any interest in 
teaching and then all of a 

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sudden you are an esteemed 
professor after years. 

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Wow. 
Yeah, my high school teachers 

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were would be quite surprised if
they saw, wait, he went and did 

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graduate school, but I found 
what I loved. 

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And then I had the interest and 
motivation to start doing school

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correctly. funny. 
Hey, it just takes some, it 

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takes some of us a little 
longer. 

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I'm in the same boat. 
Just took me a little longer to 

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find what I was hoping to do and
hoping to move forward. 

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So no judgment on that. 
So throughout all this. 

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So obviously, you were quite the
good 800 runner. 

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So then as you moved forward, 
how How did you know that you 

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wanted to kind of basically end 
up marrying a lot of the running

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and with your research or did 
that did that also evolve 

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alongside this? 
That went right along with it? 

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When I did my master's degree, 
we focused on the steeplechase, 

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which was just exciting and 
interesting event that I'd never

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done before. 
But that's where it started of, 

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oh, you can do what they call 
research and study running all 

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in one thing. 
And so that's what I did with 

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Jerry Smith at Oregon State. 
We looked at stride length and 

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running, optimizing it for 
economy, when you're rested, and

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when you're fatigued, and just 
kind of try to understand that a

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lot better, do people 
overstride? 

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And you know, that was kind of a
driving question behind it all. 

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So that just set it up as here's
my 1st study and we moved on 

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from there with similar work. 
That's awesome. 

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One of the interesting things 
that I've, I feel like I've 

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learned from your research as, 
as a new and younger researcher 

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is that sometimes things, a lot 
of the stuff out there sometimes

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make things really complicated 
way. 

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I always been really impressed 
with your research is your 

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ability to ask really 
well-defined research questions.

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And oftentimes when you 
actually, like, there's a ton of

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complexity in it, but there's 
also a simplicity going, hey, 

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what's these things? 
I feel like as I've noticed, a 

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lot of people jump way too far 
into the weeds as people going, 

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hey, what are these basic 
questions? 

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A lot of times in biomechanics, 
we still haven't answered. 

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And that to me is like such a, 
being able to ask really good 

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testable questions is really 
important. 

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The follow-up to that is I'm 
curious how have you used the 

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results of any of your studies 
to modify or influence how you 

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have continued to train. 
I'm just curious as a very 

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successful runner, both as a 
younger runner and a master's 

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runner. 
Have you used any of that to 

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influence kind of your 
understanding of what's optimal 

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for you? 
What works for your body? 

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I'm curious. 
I've tried to. 

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And for the most part, I find 
when I try to mess with 

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something, then things get 
worse. 

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So now there'll be exceptions to
that individually where 

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something unique is going on 
that we need to care for. 

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But, uh, it's really hard to 
find a study where they change 

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something with running mechanics
and find, oh, now they're better

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or they're getting injured less.
Even the long-term ones. 

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There's one out there on, uh, 
foot strike where they had 

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people switch their foot strikes
for, I forgot if it was 6 or 8 

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weeks. 
And overall, it's when they got 

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back to what they preferred, 
then they were better, even 

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after the all these weeks of 
training at it. 

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So, yeah, it's mostly been 
confirming the way we're 

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allowing our mechanics to go is 
probably what's going to be best

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for us. 
That makes sense. 

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It's funny that, uh, you know, 
when I was in my undergraduate, 

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I was part of the, what we call 
the barefoot mafia where it was 

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like, I had to be running in 
vibrum 5 fingers and had to be 

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on. 
I just tell everybody, I'm a 4 

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foot striker, even though you 
look at videos, like, these are 

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the heel striker. 
Like, this is confirming the 

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research out there. 
People have no idea how they're 

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contacting the ground. 
I'm like, I'm not even, now I'm 

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like, I'm not even going to try.
But it's funny that our bodies 

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choose something that tends to 
optimize that. 

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Do we always know, we may not 
know why? 

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And as a clinician, I definitely
moved away from that. 

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Even as I, when I was a student,
I still had some thought and 

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then a band of that because a 
lot of times, if you can 

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optimize how people are actually
absorbing the forces or 

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generating them, you can do 
things like it takes 4 to 6 

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weeks to make a strength change.
It can take a minimum of like, I

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think it's 8 to 9 months to make
a permanent motor control, like 

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a change in somebody's motor 
pattern. 

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And even then, like you said, 
some of the long-term stuff is 

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like they'll still gravitate 
back toward what's most 

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efficient to them. 
And they may not have a 

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performance game. 
So it's what I'm hearing is 

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sometimes you have to be careful
with what variables you mess 

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with because it doesn't, it's 
not often going to make you 

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better. 
There's a reason people 

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self-select things. 
Is that correct? 

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Yeah. 
Yeah, I feel that way in 

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general. 
And there are some exceptions. 

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Brian Noran, that you may know. 
He did some good work on gate 

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retraining for knee pain and so 
on. 

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And there's some times when 
there may be a good case for 

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making a change, but I don't 
ever advise that unless we know 

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the cause of why is this 
different? 

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So a good example. 
My daughter Megan, she's by far 

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more successful in the 800 than 
me. 

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She's run 158 and we're 
anticipating even quicker in the

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future. 
But in high school, she was 

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known for her head wobbling off 
to the side, one side more than 

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the other. 
And a lot of people would ask, 

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wait, you're a biomechanics 
professor. 

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Why is your daughter got such 
goofy form? 

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And it took a time where she had
an injury and we did an x-ray. 

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And the doctor said, oh, the the
atlas that holds the head up is 

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supposed to be a circle. 
There's a little gap, and he 

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said it wasn't from any injury 
that just happened. 

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Either she was born that way or 
something happened early in life

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that you never knew about. 
And the doctor said, maybe 

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that's why when he watched her, 
he noticed it. 

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And so we're not going to 
stabilize our head until we know

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why she's doing this and you 
could apply that to any part of 

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the body. 
Right. 

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Maybe she's doing that in honor 
of Paula Radcliffe, who also had

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the similar head motions, and 
that didn't seem to slow her 

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down at all. 
And obviously, if your 

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daughter's running 158. not 
slowing her down at all. 

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So it's like, hey, if you don't 
have to mess with like some of 

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the basic like learn movement 
pound instead of occurred over 

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years and years and years. 
Like maybe be careful with what 

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00:10:58,721 --> 00:11:00,599
you mess with. 
So it's interesting. 

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Again, some of the themes that 
I'm hearing is that there's a 

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lot of individual variability. 
You have to be really careful 

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with, and some of the research 
that you put out has also shown 

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that, especially with, again, 
the McLeod article talking about

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like individual variation in 
response to footwear stiffness 

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is that people are really 
variable. 

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Two questions, how have you, and
I'm jumping ahead, because I 

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00:11:21,274 --> 00:11:24,728
want to hear what your thoughts 
were from transitioning from all

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00:11:24,728 --> 00:11:27,866
the stuff from the minimalist 
footwear now to like maximal 

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00:11:27,866 --> 00:11:31,309
super shoes, but what kind of 
variability are you seeing in 

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terms of responses to a lot of 
this new footwear? 

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00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,163
Like the super shoes. 
I know you've done all this 

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stuff with Jared Ward and 
Sockney and Conor Manson, this 

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whole group. 
What kind of lessons are you 

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getting and what are you 
applying to yourself when it 

223
00:11:43,451 --> 00:11:48,303
comes to some of this footwear? 
So in terms of a number we often

224
00:11:48,303 --> 00:11:51,839
look at is the energy cost of 
running. 

225
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:56,104
We usually measure it by how 
much oxygen is staying in our 

226
00:11:56,104 --> 00:11:59,299
body, matching with the, either 
power, metabolic power of 

227
00:11:59,299 --> 00:12:02,960
running and so on. 
And when we compare traditional 

228
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:08,336
shoes or some kind of control 
shoe to what we call super 

229
00:12:08,336 --> 00:12:13,712
shoes, we see anywhere in our 
measurements from 0 to 6.2% tank

230
00:12:13,712 --> 00:12:19,523
was the highest on the 1st study
we did with the vapor fly 

231
00:12:19,523 --> 00:12:23,099
compared to the zoom streak and 
audio spoost. 

232
00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:28,289
We found that range. 
Now, some of that can be 

233
00:12:28,289 --> 00:12:31,319
measurement terror. 
But I'm confident not everyone's

234
00:12:31,319 --> 00:12:36,119
getting the same amount of 
benefit from running in these 

235
00:12:36,119 --> 00:12:38,581
shoes. 
So that's a lot of where our 

236
00:12:38,581 --> 00:12:41,411
research is currently going, 
trying to understand what is it 

237
00:12:41,411 --> 00:12:44,519
that makes one person get more 
of a benefit than another. 

238
00:12:44,519 --> 00:12:48,298
And if we did a different model 
of shoe, Does it flip? 

239
00:12:48,299 --> 00:12:50,399
And now we've found the right 
one for this person. 

240
00:12:50,399 --> 00:12:55,079
And it's surprising that, you 
know, it was 2017, I think, when

241
00:12:55,079 --> 00:12:59,369
the vapor fly was released, and 
we still are chasing those 

242
00:12:59,369 --> 00:13:01,614
questions. 
There's been nothing saying foot

243
00:13:01,614 --> 00:13:05,689
strike determines it, which 
would be my 1st thought of let's

244
00:13:05,689 --> 00:13:10,129
look at heel and midfoot, but 
it's still a question that's out

245
00:13:10,129 --> 00:13:12,660
there. 
There's 2 studies that look at 

246
00:13:12,660 --> 00:13:16,980
people that spend a bit less 
time on the ground while running

247
00:13:16,980 --> 00:13:20,939
the same speed as someone else, 
maybe get a greater benefit. 

248
00:13:20,940 --> 00:13:24,418
But there's a lot of unknown 
still out there right now. 

249
00:13:24,419 --> 00:13:27,509
Got it. 
So somebody that maybe has like 

250
00:13:27,509 --> 00:13:30,864
lower ground contact time and 
maybe has a little bit more 

251
00:13:30,864 --> 00:13:33,298
elastic abilities would benefit 
more, which is, hmm. 

252
00:13:33,299 --> 00:13:36,618
That's interesting. 
I could also see the opposite as

253
00:13:36,618 --> 00:13:39,658
well, but again, I'd have to see
what the, that, that study, and 

254
00:13:39,658 --> 00:13:42,454
I think I remember now that what
the study you're kind of 

255
00:13:42,454 --> 00:13:43,619
referencing going, oh, that's 
interesting. 

256
00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:45,959
So how have you applied that to 
yourself? 

257
00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,116
Because you have the really cool
background of going, you got to 

258
00:13:49,116 --> 00:13:52,008
see all the early stuff from the
Sockney Endorphin series when 

259
00:13:52,008 --> 00:13:54,628
Jared Ward was testing that 
stuff and you obviously they're 

260
00:13:54,628 --> 00:13:57,510
with Conor Manson, the rest of 
the group probably see things 

261
00:13:57,510 --> 00:14:00,102
you can't talk about. 
How have you applied this to 

262
00:14:00,102 --> 00:14:02,664
yourself? 
What lessons have you learned to

263
00:14:02,664 --> 00:14:05,719
use utilizing this somewhat? 
I guess you can't really say new

264
00:14:05,719 --> 00:14:07,688
footwear type because it's 
you're right. been around for 

265
00:14:07,688 --> 00:14:09,418
almost a decade now. 
Yeah, yeah. 

266
00:14:09,419 --> 00:14:13,559
Yeah. 
Well, the 1st thing that got me 

267
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:19,231
excited was when I did my 1st 
marathon, it was 2007 and Nike 

268
00:14:19,231 --> 00:14:24,027
had come out with the Lunar 
Racer, which was mainly a 

269
00:14:24,027 --> 00:14:27,831
training shoe. 
But I thought, I'm going 26 

270
00:14:27,831 --> 00:14:31,072
miles. 
I'm an 800 runner, and I need my

271
00:14:31,072 --> 00:14:33,479
legs and feet to survive this 
race. 

272
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,652
So instead of going with the 
zoom marathon or other ones that

273
00:14:38,652 --> 00:14:42,958
were, let's go lightweight, very
thin, protect enough, but we 

274
00:14:42,958 --> 00:14:48,230
don't want masks on our feed. 
The lunar racer was a relatively

275
00:14:48,230 --> 00:14:52,710
light shoe with maybe around 
double the amount, thickness of 

276
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:55,541
foam. 
So I chose that to race in, and 

277
00:14:55,541 --> 00:14:59,996
I think that was one that it was
sort of a, um, up and coming 

278
00:14:59,996 --> 00:15:04,154
super shoe in a way or some of 
the technologies we see now or 

279
00:15:04,154 --> 00:15:06,599
what was in that shoe. 
So I loved that shoe. 

280
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,872
I doubt it's made anymore 
because other things have taken 

281
00:15:09,872 --> 00:15:12,479
over. 
But that was a tempo run shoe. 

282
00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:14,806
And I thought, yeah, I'm just 
going to do the marathon in 

283
00:15:14,806 --> 00:15:17,848
this. 
And then when we got to 2017, it

284
00:15:17,848 --> 00:15:22,120
was one of the funnest years to 
race because we'd just finished 

285
00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,744
our study, we had a collection 
of shoes, we did the study in 

286
00:15:26,744 --> 00:15:29,939
July, August, and their shoes 
were released in July. 

287
00:15:29,940 --> 00:15:36,078
So I had a pair of 12s and I had
a pair of 11s that I loaned to 

288
00:15:36,078 --> 00:15:39,767
my friend John Cotter. 
And we're up there at the start 

289
00:15:39,767 --> 00:15:41,759
line waiting around, chatting 
with people. 

290
00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:44,759
We were the only 2 people with 
these shoes. 

291
00:15:44,759 --> 00:15:48,771
So I took advantage of that and 
they're asking, oh, how do they 

292
00:15:48,771 --> 00:15:50,339
feel? 
Well, we've been testing them. 

293
00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:52,980
Some people, it's like 6%, even 
though they're named 4%. 

294
00:15:52,980 --> 00:15:56,399
And we're just trying to get in 
their heads and have some fun. 

295
00:15:56,399 --> 00:16:00,178
But, um, we found we knew the 
shoes worked. 

296
00:16:00,179 --> 00:16:04,184
So I applied that to me. 
We've had a great partnership 

297
00:16:04,184 --> 00:16:08,038
with Salkony through the years, 
thanks to Jared Ward. 

298
00:16:08,039 --> 00:16:12,827
And when his prototypes arrived,
that also was a time when I 

299
00:16:12,827 --> 00:16:17,386
could often try them out. 
And so I guess the question he 

300
00:16:17,386 --> 00:16:21,778
originally asked was focused on 
how have I used this for me? 

301
00:16:21,779 --> 00:16:26,246
I've tried multiple different 
shoes to see how I respond in 

302
00:16:26,246 --> 00:16:29,322
each one. 
I see how my running mechanics 

303
00:16:29,322 --> 00:16:33,300
respond. so many stories 
applying it to Connor and Jared 

304
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:36,899
and others that fit well here 
that aren't secret. 

305
00:16:36,899 --> 00:16:41,202
But when we add not just the 
economy of running, but how long

306
00:16:41,202 --> 00:16:45,836
are the steps and how long are 
we on the ground and what's the 

307
00:16:45,836 --> 00:16:49,139
peak force on our body when we 
hit the ground? 

308
00:16:49,139 --> 00:16:55,222
And a lot of the times we've 
been finding very similar 

309
00:16:55,222 --> 00:16:59,639
metabolic information between 
the different types of shoes. 

310
00:16:59,639 --> 00:17:03,642
But we're going to take less 
steps if we wear one shoe over 

311
00:17:03,642 --> 00:17:07,019
the other or have a smaller peak
force on our body. 

312
00:17:07,019 --> 00:17:11,733
So we're able to take all of 
that to help on here's the right

313
00:17:11,733 --> 00:17:15,275
shoe for this person. 
I mean, the ones they're mostly 

314
00:17:15,275 --> 00:17:18,935
with, don't get to choose 
between companies, but at least 

315
00:17:18,935 --> 00:17:22,595
between the models that are 
there, then there's some great 

316
00:17:22,595 --> 00:17:26,252
questions we can ask and work 
individually outside of the 

317
00:17:26,252 --> 00:17:30,257
group studies that we're doing. 
So I'm also, I'm hearing you 

318
00:17:30,257 --> 00:17:33,885
mention a lot of quantitative 
variables, like stride length or

319
00:17:33,885 --> 00:17:36,419
like steps or what, all these 
variables. 

320
00:17:36,420 --> 00:17:38,399
Do you, and I don't know if you 
could say this. 

321
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,172
Do you also take qualitative 
factors into account, like what 

322
00:17:41,172 --> 00:17:44,219
the perception of the shoe is 
and comfort things like that? 

323
00:17:44,220 --> 00:17:45,838
Is that also part of your 
research? 

324
00:17:45,839 --> 00:17:49,680
Is that that not part of it? 
We've often asked those 

325
00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,072
questions during a study. 
A lot of our participants have 

326
00:17:54,072 --> 00:17:56,879
not used super shoes much at 
least. 

327
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,838
And we're just curious how 
they're feeling. 

328
00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:05,159
But we haven't ever done any 
studies across brands. 

329
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,239
It's typically gonna be, here's 
the super shoe we're using. 

330
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,984
Here's the control shoe we're 
using, and we're not interested 

331
00:18:12,984 --> 00:18:17,098
in terms of the research, which 
brand's better than the other. 

332
00:18:17,099 --> 00:18:19,439
And that's going to be different
the next year anyway. 

333
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,945
Yeah, so... 
So even though it's interesting 

334
00:18:22,945 --> 00:18:26,461
to get that information, we 
don't have much that we end up 

335
00:18:26,461 --> 00:18:29,098
doing with it because of the 
questions we're asking. 

336
00:18:29,099 --> 00:18:31,971
Yeah. 
I, the only reason I ask that is

337
00:18:31,971 --> 00:18:34,479
I am, I am a, by making this, 
I'm a quantitative researcher 

338
00:18:34,479 --> 00:18:36,987
and I have friends of mine that 
keep bothering, hey, you should,

339
00:18:36,987 --> 00:18:39,491
and I'm also in the, in the 
physical therapy word, we tend 

340
00:18:39,491 --> 00:18:41,990
to be very quantitative as well.
They're trying to make a big 

341
00:18:41,990 --> 00:18:44,278
push to go, hey, you should get 
some more qualitative data. 

342
00:18:44,279 --> 00:18:47,429
And I have friends of mine that 
are supporting me as we kind of 

343
00:18:47,429 --> 00:18:48,778
explore some stuff with super 
shoes. 

344
00:18:48,779 --> 00:18:51,628
Another thing, and I'm like, it 
just, and then I had talked to 

345
00:18:51,628 --> 00:18:53,599
other biomechanists like, why 
are you looking at qualitative 

346
00:18:53,599 --> 00:18:55,067
data? 
I'm like, there's a place where 

347
00:18:55,067 --> 00:18:56,519
we're trying to learn what this 
is. 

348
00:18:56,519 --> 00:18:59,236
I was just, I'm just curious 
because again, in the footwear 

349
00:18:59,236 --> 00:19:02,435
world with a lot of the people, 
the companies that I had gotten 

350
00:19:02,435 --> 00:19:04,890
to like talk with. 
They do care about qualitative 

351
00:19:04,890 --> 00:19:07,820
variables, but then it's totally
variable as to what they're 

352
00:19:07,820 --> 00:19:10,452
going to do. 
And it's just, again, the big 

353
00:19:10,452 --> 00:19:14,248
shift in the big, the big, uh, 
uh, what's the term I'm looking 

354
00:19:14,248 --> 00:19:17,749
for, the very 2 different sides,
where in the academic world and 

355
00:19:17,749 --> 00:19:21,241
a lot of the research world, 
we're very much looking at these

356
00:19:21,241 --> 00:19:23,557
quantitative variables, then in 
the footwear world, They're 

357
00:19:23,557 --> 00:19:25,499
looking more at like the 
qualitative stuff. 

358
00:19:25,500 --> 00:19:28,848
So I was just curious, again, 
and that's kind of helpful to 

359
00:19:28,848 --> 00:19:32,186
go, hey, there's so much change 
in footwear and things are so 

360
00:19:32,186 --> 00:19:34,507
different year to year. 
It's hard to be able to track 

361
00:19:34,507 --> 00:19:36,118
that. 
So that makes sense. 

362
00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:39,927
So now, what are you running and
racing in right now, if I could 

363
00:19:39,927 --> 00:19:42,230
ask? 
I guess it wouldn't be a secret 

364
00:19:42,230 --> 00:19:46,040
if someone was out there. 
But right now I'm doing the 

365
00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,954
Salkony endorphin elite. 
The elite 2 specifically, the 3 

366
00:19:48,954 --> 00:19:51,838
is on the way, I think, for the 
next race. 

367
00:19:51,839 --> 00:19:53,879
Yes, that's awesome. 
That's great. 

368
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,798
That one's just worked really 
well on me. 

369
00:19:55,799 --> 00:19:59,879
And so I keep going with it. 
And it's such a soft foam. 

370
00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:03,707
I find it very comfortable also.
That makes that would make sense

371
00:20:03,707 --> 00:20:07,028
based on your love of the lunar 
the lunar racer to that would be

372
00:20:07,028 --> 00:20:10,722
a natural progression. 
But did you try version one of 

373
00:20:10,722 --> 00:20:14,098
the endorphin elite? 
I did. 

374
00:20:14,099 --> 00:20:15,234
Yeah. 
Yeah, I did. 

375
00:20:15,234 --> 00:20:17,818
I ran a race in those too. 
I got it. 

376
00:20:17,819 --> 00:20:20,999
I've mostly been going with 
Salkony. 

377
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,338
It's that connection that Jared 
gave me originally. 

378
00:20:23,339 --> 00:20:26,459
I have tried other shoes and I 
like them too. 

379
00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:33,150
Yeah, I, um, I started with the,
uh, pro 2 actually by the time I

380
00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:37,164
did my 1st race in the, uh, 
endorphin shoes. 

381
00:20:37,164 --> 00:20:42,513
And each step along the way, 
I'll compare the current shoe to

382
00:20:42,513 --> 00:20:47,408
the next generation that's 
coming and I just get more and 

383
00:20:47,408 --> 00:20:49,627
more excitement. 
So, so they work. 

384
00:20:49,627 --> 00:20:53,943
And it's not like I think the 
Brooks isn't going to work or 

385
00:20:53,943 --> 00:20:58,588
the Nike isn't going to work on 
me, but I found one that feels 

386
00:20:58,588 --> 00:21:00,298
good. 
I know it works well. 

387
00:21:00,299 --> 00:21:02,578
Everyone we've tested in that 
shoe. 

388
00:21:02,579 --> 00:21:07,018
It's just been a great option. 
Yeah, the endorphin elite 2 is 

389
00:21:07,018 --> 00:21:11,566
was such a surprise because 
elite one was also a very big 

390
00:21:11,566 --> 00:21:14,219
upgrade from the endorphin, the 
endorphin pro. 

391
00:21:14,220 --> 00:21:17,430
And so just for, and I had heard
about what was going on with the

392
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:20,426
Edorphin Elite 2 and may or may 
not have gotten to test it when 

393
00:21:20,426 --> 00:21:23,201
we went over to Boston and hung 
out with some very cool people 

394
00:21:23,201 --> 00:21:25,806
like Corey and the whole group. 
So the whole soccer team seems 

395
00:21:25,806 --> 00:21:28,458
to listen to this, so they'll be
really excited to hear you're 

396
00:21:28,458 --> 00:21:29,999
enjoying this stuff still, which
is great. 

397
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,091
Yeah, but it was like just the 
soft, the compliant of that foam

398
00:21:35,091 --> 00:21:38,219
is absolutely incredible with 
how much it compresses. 

399
00:21:38,220 --> 00:21:40,199
And it's funny to hear, hey, 
that makes sense. 

400
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,840
There seems to be a theme of 
things that you like is that 

401
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:46,637
softer, kind of more bouncy, not
necessarily the lightest thing 

402
00:21:46,637 --> 00:21:49,427
on the market and just 
interesting how that's unique to

403
00:21:49,427 --> 00:21:51,659
you and just finding what works 
for you. 

404
00:21:51,660 --> 00:21:55,343
And I think that follows into my
next question is, This is not 

405
00:21:55,343 --> 00:21:58,456
meant to be negative, but a lot 
of running companies, they're 

406
00:21:58,456 --> 00:21:59,664
there. 
They have to make a profit, 

407
00:21:59,664 --> 00:22:01,019
right? 
They're trying to sell a 

408
00:22:01,019 --> 00:22:02,559
product. 
So that can be really 

409
00:22:02,559 --> 00:22:05,159
challenging for a lot of 
recreational runners to go, hey,

410
00:22:05,159 --> 00:22:07,679
I see the elites wearing this. 
I see them doing this. 

411
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,046
What kind of words of wisdom 
could you give from a 

412
00:22:11,046 --> 00:22:13,188
biomechanic standpoint outside 
of, obviously, everybody's a 

413
00:22:13,188 --> 00:22:16,544
little different to go, hey, 
does everybody need a super shoe

414
00:22:16,544 --> 00:22:19,440
if they're racing? 
How do you help translate the 

415
00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,740
biomechanical variability that 
we have in response to shoes to 

416
00:22:22,740 --> 00:22:25,050
the recreational runner, 
knowing, hey, maybe not 

417
00:22:25,050 --> 00:22:26,699
everybody might benefit from 
this? 

418
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,426
There's other options, like 
there's other endorphin. if 

419
00:22:29,426 --> 00:22:30,598
you're going to stick in the 
socking line. 

420
00:22:30,599 --> 00:22:32,773
There's other endorphin shoes 
that will work wonderful, 

421
00:22:32,773 --> 00:22:35,483
whether the endorphin speed or 
the endorphin trainer that can 

422
00:22:35,483 --> 00:22:38,485
that will do this stuff. 
How do you translate that to 

423
00:22:38,485 --> 00:22:41,789
them? 
I think the best approach to 

424
00:22:41,789 --> 00:22:47,338
take, some all know the name 
Beno, *** retired from Calgary. 

425
00:22:47,339 --> 00:22:52,019
He did quite a lot of years, 
decades of study on footwear for

426
00:22:52,019 --> 00:22:55,122
running. 
And one of his final articles 

427
00:22:55,122 --> 00:23:01,520
that he put out focused on, you 
put the shoe on, and if it's 

428
00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:04,259
comfy, then that's the right 
choice. 

429
00:23:04,259 --> 00:23:07,019
You know, after 40 years of 
researching. 

430
00:23:07,019 --> 00:23:10,784
That was his main advice. 
He called it the preferred 

431
00:23:10,784 --> 00:23:14,834
movement pattern, where your 
foot is going to prefer a 

432
00:23:14,834 --> 00:23:19,683
certain movement pattern, but if
we're barefoot or in a shoe that

433
00:23:19,683 --> 00:23:24,127
doesn't put pressure in the 
right places for us, we won't 

434
00:23:24,127 --> 00:23:28,975
roll our foot forward in a way 
that is most comfortable and 

435
00:23:28,975 --> 00:23:33,823
probably most economical for us.
So if we try to say everyone 

436
00:23:33,823 --> 00:23:38,671
should wear a certain company or
model of shoe, that's not going 

437
00:23:38,671 --> 00:23:42,464
to work. some people will feel 
some extra pressure in a certain

438
00:23:42,464 --> 00:23:45,742
place and now they adjust their 
movement pattern of their foot, 

439
00:23:45,742 --> 00:23:49,020
and they're going to be worse 
off for injury risk and 

440
00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:52,351
performance. 
So I advise people to head up to

441
00:23:52,351 --> 00:23:56,519
runner's corner if they're in 
Utah, or at least Utah County, 

442
00:23:56,519 --> 00:24:01,433
and try on multiple shoes, get 
on the treadmill in the shop or 

443
00:24:01,433 --> 00:24:05,591
run their mini track they have, 
and which one feels most 

444
00:24:05,591 --> 00:24:10,505
comfortable to you, which one do
you feel that this is hard to 

445
00:24:10,505 --> 00:24:12,730
put into words? 
I'm sure you've experienced it 

446
00:24:12,730 --> 00:24:16,492
and a lot of the listeners. 
The 1st time you put on a super 

447
00:24:16,492 --> 00:24:19,499
shoe. 
And you don't even have to run. 

448
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:24,116
You take one foot strike of 
walking and realize something's 

449
00:24:24,116 --> 00:24:27,298
going on here. 
This isn't normal. 

450
00:24:27,299 --> 00:24:31,310
So you feel that experience of 
this shoe is going to make me 

451
00:24:31,310 --> 00:24:33,642
fast. 
It fits and is comfortable on 

452
00:24:33,642 --> 00:24:38,023
your foot, then that's probably 
a good one to start with if you 

453
00:24:38,023 --> 00:24:42,404
want to pay $300 instead of 150 
for the shoe you're going to 

454
00:24:42,404 --> 00:24:45,159
race in. 
It is a little bit of a shock, 

455
00:24:45,159 --> 00:24:48,539
still to have grown up in the 
era when the Lunar Racer was 

456
00:24:48,539 --> 00:24:51,919
being sold to be like, but Lunar
Racer was like, what, like 100 

457
00:24:51,919 --> 00:24:53,278
bucks, right? 
110? 

458
00:24:53,279 --> 00:24:56,730
Around there. 
And now it's like now racing 

459
00:24:56,730 --> 00:25:00,869
shoes are in the like 300. 
We're getting to the 330 range, 

460
00:25:00,869 --> 00:25:02,159
500 range. 
Right. 

461
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,399
I'm like, wow, this is a, this 
is a different time. 

462
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,117
But yes, the variability of 
going, hey, just make sure it's 

463
00:25:08,117 --> 00:25:09,598
comfortable and it's amazing to 
me. 

464
00:25:09,599 --> 00:25:13,133
Again, it's about Mecca to be 
like, wait, we have all these 

465
00:25:13,133 --> 00:25:15,779
great biomechanical variables 
and comfort as a number one 

466
00:25:15,779 --> 00:25:18,719
predictor of success and a shit 
like I, oh, okay. 

467
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,179
Well, there we go. 
There's other things to 

468
00:25:22,179 --> 00:25:25,318
consider, obviously. the massive
it and so on that. 

469
00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:29,658
And that varies quite a bit 
between these super shoes, but 

470
00:25:29,658 --> 00:25:33,598
comfort is probably start with 
that in a super shoe. 

471
00:25:33,599 --> 00:25:36,058
All of the companies have good 
ones right now. 

472
00:25:36,059 --> 00:25:40,139
But, yeah, start with comfort. 
Yep. 

473
00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:43,078
Can I ask you a very divisive 
question? 

474
00:25:43,079 --> 00:25:47,399
Yeah. guess what it might be. 
Got it. 

475
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,058
So the recent, oh, there's not a
ton of literature on this. 

476
00:25:51,059 --> 00:25:54,049
I had a group of students do a 
systemic review and we didn't 

477
00:25:54,049 --> 00:25:56,349
actually find that much stuff 
out there, which is really 

478
00:25:56,349 --> 00:25:57,959
interesting also because these 
things take time. 

479
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,110
So there was, and I am one of 
those people who were like, hey,

480
00:26:01,110 --> 00:26:03,358
you should be careful with like,
yes, these are tools. 

481
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,739
The super shoes, if you're going
to race in them, you need to 

482
00:26:06,739 --> 00:26:10,119
train in them to make sure that 
your body can acclimate to this 

483
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,719
tool, but how much you should be
training in them. 

484
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,069
We don't know. 
Is there any positive, like the 

485
00:26:15,069 --> 00:26:17,679
comments are going, hey, we're 
worried that if you're spending 

486
00:26:17,679 --> 00:26:20,811
too much time in super shoes, it
might increase your injury risk 

487
00:26:20,811 --> 00:26:23,678
for now I've reached the A's 
reason where it might increase 

488
00:26:23,678 --> 00:26:26,278
your risk for certain injuries, 
maybe not all of them. 

489
00:26:26,279 --> 00:26:29,474
Do you have any thoughts on 
like, hey, do you need to worry 

490
00:26:29,474 --> 00:26:31,679
about balancing how much time 
you're spending in these? 

491
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,696
Is it okay to be in like super 
trainers and super racers all 

492
00:26:34,696 --> 00:26:36,534
the time? 
Do you have any hesitancies or 

493
00:26:36,534 --> 00:26:38,818
is this something that I am 
blowing out of proportion? 

494
00:26:38,819 --> 00:26:41,699
Because most literature has been
very inconclusive thus far. 

495
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:43,579
Yeah. 
Well, there's so much 

496
00:26:43,579 --> 00:26:46,019
variability in how people are 
going to respond to this. 

497
00:26:46,019 --> 00:26:50,595
Generally, the super shoes are 
going to be less of a load on 

498
00:26:50,595 --> 00:26:53,759
the body is my assumption, not 
completely proven yet. 

499
00:26:53,759 --> 00:26:58,491
But we feel we've got a study 
that we're doing the blood work 

500
00:26:58,491 --> 00:27:03,215
for right now that is hoping to 
answer some of that question of,

501
00:27:03,215 --> 00:27:07,934
you know, we had people doing 
the same long run out at Jared's

502
00:27:07,934 --> 00:27:11,927
house and one week with super 
shoes one week with whatever 

503
00:27:11,927 --> 00:27:16,057
trainer they would use. 
And did blood work before and 

504
00:27:16,057 --> 00:27:20,517
after each run to find some 
proteins that'll measure muscle 

505
00:27:20,517 --> 00:27:23,639
damage and other strain on the 
body. 

506
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:25,499
So we'll get some of that out 
there. 

507
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:31,092
But, um, in terms of how much 
training should happen, uh, I 

508
00:27:31,092 --> 00:27:37,604
feel like doing a lot of, for, 
for this is my view without it 

509
00:27:37,604 --> 00:27:41,574
being proven yet. 
For me, I do quite a bit of all 

510
00:27:41,574 --> 00:27:45,578
of my workouts and most of my 
long run time is in super shoes,

511
00:27:45,578 --> 00:27:48,719
but it's been a gradual 
transition to get to that point.

512
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:54,634
And if we make a sudden change 
in training, whether it's 

513
00:27:54,634 --> 00:27:58,393
intensity, volume, footwear, 
hills, surface, there's injury 

514
00:27:58,393 --> 00:28:02,479
risk that's gonna be added. 
While I'm focused more on 

515
00:28:02,479 --> 00:28:06,106
specificity of training, if I'm 
in a race in that shoe, I want 

516
00:28:06,106 --> 00:28:10,345
to do a lot of training in it. 
And I think that's some good 

517
00:28:10,345 --> 00:28:12,834
advice. 
But if you haven't been training

518
00:28:12,834 --> 00:28:17,501
in a super shoe and just start 
doing it, and we're adding 2 

519
00:28:17,501 --> 00:28:21,797
workouts a week, if that's the 
case for some, plus some long 

520
00:28:21,797 --> 00:28:25,019
run time, we're changing the 
load on our body. 

521
00:28:25,019 --> 00:28:29,349
So there's an injury risk. 
So it was a gradual over about a

522
00:28:29,349 --> 00:28:33,479
2 year process of shifting into 
what I'm currently doing. 

523
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:38,520
So can I, can I make sure I'm 
hearing this right, is that I 

524
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,479
may have viewed this as this 
kind of very unique variable. 

525
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,134
When in actuality, it's just 
like any other new variable you 

526
00:28:46,134 --> 00:28:48,239
might add. 
And while it might decrease, 

527
00:28:48,239 --> 00:28:51,695
there may be, possibly it does 
decrease or alter load on the 

528
00:28:51,695 --> 00:28:55,151
human body, it is still a 
variable, it is still a new 

529
00:28:55,151 --> 00:28:56,958
stimulus. 
And like any new stimulus, you 

530
00:28:56,958 --> 00:29:00,247
need to take time to adapt 
because even if it is making you

531
00:29:00,247 --> 00:29:03,030
faster or it makes things 
easier, it's still new and your 

532
00:29:03,030 --> 00:29:06,885
body needs time to adapt to it. 
So rather than think about it as

533
00:29:06,885 --> 00:29:10,163
this new thing or like this 
special thing, go, it's just 

534
00:29:10,163 --> 00:29:13,441
another variable and just like 
any new variable too much too 

535
00:29:13,441 --> 00:29:16,199
soon. there's a risk of injury 
with that. 

536
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,810
Yeah. 
And then one other really 

537
00:29:18,810 --> 00:29:21,118
important component that needs 
to happen here. 

538
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:26,033
What we are mostly finding is 
it's to do with the ankle, in 

539
00:29:26,033 --> 00:29:30,181
terms of the benefits that we're
getting from these shoes, most 

540
00:29:30,181 --> 00:29:34,705
of it comes from less what we 
call torque generated at the 

541
00:29:34,705 --> 00:29:38,098
ankle, is where the savings seem
to be coming. 

542
00:29:38,099 --> 00:29:41,834
So that means our Achilles 
tendon, the muscles there, 

543
00:29:41,834 --> 00:29:47,225
probably some parts of the foot,
are going to gradually get a bit

544
00:29:47,225 --> 00:29:49,264
weaker. 
So adding, supplementing some 

545
00:29:49,264 --> 00:29:54,133
things in the weight room with a
little bit of extra, uh, 

546
00:29:54,133 --> 00:29:57,373
gastroxoleus, cough muscle work,
maybe some uh, eccentric 

547
00:29:57,373 --> 00:30:01,423
loadings to make sure the 
tendons stay strong and healthy,

548
00:30:01,423 --> 00:30:05,473
uh, that needs to be 
supplemented in because we are 

549
00:30:05,473 --> 00:30:09,118
going to be lightening the load 
on that area. 

550
00:30:09,119 --> 00:30:11,889
And that's one of the 
challenges, which it makes sense

551
00:30:11,889 --> 00:30:14,936
that that would be the greatest,
like some of the greatest 

552
00:30:14,936 --> 00:30:17,706
improvements because the, as, 
with the exception of when you 

553
00:30:17,706 --> 00:30:20,476
start running faster, the hip 
contributes a lot more to 

554
00:30:20,476 --> 00:30:22,969
propulsion, but the planter 
flexors, your calf muscles, a 

555
00:30:22,969 --> 00:30:25,739
lot stuff, those are the primary
propulsive muscles for running. 

556
00:30:25,740 --> 00:30:27,864
So it makes sense that if you 
could save stuff like that, 

557
00:30:27,864 --> 00:30:29,278
you're going to be a lot more 
efficient. 

558
00:30:29,279 --> 00:30:32,509
The challenges where my research
comes in because I study 

559
00:30:32,509 --> 00:30:35,414
Achilles tenopathy and masters 
runners going, yes, that makes 

560
00:30:35,414 --> 00:30:37,209
sense, right? 
That this, especially this group

561
00:30:37,209 --> 00:30:39,043
would go, oh, this is a great 
tool. 

562
00:30:39,043 --> 00:30:42,105
It's reducing stress there. 
But tendons respond best when 

563
00:30:42,105 --> 00:30:45,959
they have some continual loading
in an optimal way. 

564
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,106
So if you really reduce that, my
question has been, is there any 

565
00:30:49,106 --> 00:30:52,494
change in that room, maybe not, 
but any change in the risk for a

566
00:30:52,494 --> 00:30:54,430
tenonopathy? 
And then the fall thing is like,

567
00:30:54,430 --> 00:30:57,092
oh, there's so much variability 
in why certain people get that. 

568
00:30:57,092 --> 00:30:59,509
And there's some new research 
been like, actually, this is 

569
00:30:59,509 --> 00:31:01,919
more of a systemic thing than 
maybe a biomechanical thing. 

570
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,880
And I'm like, oh, but yeah, any 
thoughts on like tendon health 

571
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,504
and these, which we don't know. 
There's like next to nothing on 

572
00:31:09,504 --> 00:31:11,374
this. 
This is all hypothesis, but any 

573
00:31:11,374 --> 00:31:13,440
thoughts. 
So you're getting excited about 

574
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,298
this one. 
Okay. 

575
00:31:15,299 --> 00:31:18,955
That study I mentioned with the 
long runs in super shoes or 

576
00:31:18,955 --> 00:31:20,759
trainers. 
We also did. 

577
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:26,640
We had an amazing student here. 
She's at Delaware doing her PhD 

578
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,399
now, focusing on Achilles Tendon
Health. 

579
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:34,860
And we had all of the runners in
Jared Ward's basement in this 

580
00:31:34,860 --> 00:31:39,900
big room that he had down there 
on tables, getting their blood 

581
00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:43,260
work, but also getting 
ultrasound, looking at Achilles 

582
00:31:43,260 --> 00:31:47,880
tendon thickness, and a couple 
other measures that are going to

583
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:52,080
show, here's how the Achilles 
tendon changed during the run 

584
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:57,849
between each type of shoe. 
And I think they're about 75% 

585
00:31:57,849 --> 00:32:03,959
away of the way through all the 
analyzing those measures. 

586
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,340
And so that is something that'll
be coming, as you probably know,

587
00:32:08,340 --> 00:32:11,990
it takes a while from 
measurement until the article is

588
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:14,838
actually published. 
But I'm hoping that within the 

589
00:32:14,838 --> 00:32:18,363
year will be at least doing 
presentations on that at 

590
00:32:18,363 --> 00:32:20,475
conferences. 
And then the article coming 

591
00:32:20,475 --> 00:32:22,840
after that. 
So if there's something there, 

592
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,159
that's our 1st attempt to get an
answer to it. 

593
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,338
That's really cool to know that 
somebody's doing that. 

594
00:32:29,339 --> 00:32:31,315
And it sounds like you guys are 
going to have a decent sample 

595
00:32:31,315 --> 00:32:32,779
size too. 
So it's not going to be like one

596
00:32:32,779 --> 00:32:35,186
of those classic stuff. 
You get like 4 people. you got a

597
00:32:35,186 --> 00:32:38,415
good sample size too. 
We had, uh, forget the number 

598
00:32:38,415 --> 00:32:41,320
for sure. 
I believe we had around 25 

599
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,379
people for this. 
Hey, that's perfect. 

600
00:32:43,380 --> 00:32:46,812
Which shall at least let us know
there's something there or not, 

601
00:32:46,812 --> 00:32:49,379
and hopefully a little stronger 
on so than that. 

602
00:32:49,380 --> 00:32:51,307
Right. 
As from a biomechanic 

603
00:32:51,307 --> 00:32:53,969
standpoint, 25 subjects is a 
really, I know your days are 

604
00:32:53,969 --> 00:32:55,904
doing biomechanics for this 
particular thing, but that's 

605
00:32:55,904 --> 00:32:59,278
always, you can get 20 to 5 
people that do a long run now. 

606
00:32:59,279 --> 00:33:02,386
Right. 
I mean, we have a great group 

607
00:33:02,386 --> 00:33:06,674
here, but so many are on a very 
specific training program, and 

608
00:33:06,674 --> 00:33:10,616
we didn't want to interfere. 
So some of the ones that you 

609
00:33:10,616 --> 00:33:13,078
might think would be in there 
were not. 

610
00:33:13,079 --> 00:33:15,429
There might be a couple, you 
know, it's confidential, but 

611
00:33:15,429 --> 00:33:18,249
there were a couple that you 
think, oh, they were in this 

612
00:33:18,249 --> 00:33:19,858
data set. 
That's cool and interesting. 

613
00:33:19,859 --> 00:33:24,594
So it's a great group. 
Our range of runners had a 

614
00:33:24,594 --> 00:33:27,778
decent spread, but they're all 
pretty good quality. 

615
00:33:27,779 --> 00:33:29,818
Got it. 
That is very cool. 

616
00:33:29,819 --> 00:33:33,896
So we might have an answer. 
Do you have, I know you haven't 

617
00:33:33,896 --> 00:33:36,778
been able to analyze the data. 
What is your hypothesis? 

618
00:33:36,779 --> 00:33:43,911
Um, so, we imagined there would 
be, um, we did some jump testing

619
00:33:43,911 --> 00:33:46,770
also. 
So we were predicting that after

620
00:33:46,770 --> 00:33:51,102
the same run in Super Shoe. 
We forced them as well as we 

621
00:33:51,102 --> 00:33:53,699
could to the same pace and 
definitely same distance. 

622
00:33:53,700 --> 00:34:00,396
And we imagined after the, uh, 
Super Shoe Day, they would have,

623
00:34:00,396 --> 00:34:04,302
uh, greater power in their 
vertical jumping. 

624
00:34:04,302 --> 00:34:09,875
And the blood work, we thought, 
would indicate lower cardiac 

625
00:34:09,875 --> 00:34:17,116
strain is one of them that we've
working on a smaller amount of 

626
00:34:17,116 --> 00:34:21,358
proteins representing muscle 
damage, and then smaller changes

627
00:34:21,358 --> 00:34:26,286
in the Achilles tendon acutely 
around the run that, um, you 

628
00:34:26,286 --> 00:34:31,214
know, when we run, the Achilles 
tendon gets longer and thinner 

629
00:34:31,214 --> 00:34:34,797
as it gets warmed up and 
stretched out. 

630
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,985
And we wondered, maybe we'll see
a little bit different magnitude

631
00:34:39,985 --> 00:34:44,074
of that happening. 
I mostly think they're running 

632
00:34:44,074 --> 00:34:49,428
this group 13 to 25 miles. 
I doubt that's really going to 

633
00:34:49,428 --> 00:34:53,724
show up with, you know, they're,
they're out there so long, it, 

634
00:34:53,724 --> 00:34:58,369
and it would kind of tape her 
off how much that change occurs.

635
00:34:58,369 --> 00:35:03,010
And I'm guessing we're out there
for such a long time, that one 

636
00:35:03,010 --> 00:35:06,911
might not show up. 
I'd have to talk to Camille to 

637
00:35:06,911 --> 00:35:10,438
remember all the other measures 
that were included in that. 

638
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:16,310
But, um, the ones that we've 
traditionally done include, uh, 

639
00:35:16,310 --> 00:35:22,762
echogenicity and we're able to 
look at some blood flow things 

640
00:35:22,762 --> 00:35:31,278
that might be going on, uh, The,
uh, stretch of the tandem, the 

641
00:35:31,278 --> 00:35:35,140
stiffness of it. 
Those are things that we're 

642
00:35:35,140 --> 00:35:38,575
interested in for future 
studies, but, as you can tell, 

643
00:35:38,575 --> 00:35:41,662
right off, I'm forgetting 
exactly which ones she included 

644
00:35:41,662 --> 00:35:45,435
in that part of the study, but 
hopefully we'll know really 

645
00:35:45,435 --> 00:35:47,879
soon. 
I'm very, very curious in 

646
00:35:47,879 --> 00:35:49,695
information. 
It's also really helpful because

647
00:35:49,695 --> 00:35:52,206
most studies, especially in a 
lab environment, don't have 

648
00:35:52,206 --> 00:35:55,275
people running for that long 
will be the classic like sixious

649
00:35:55,275 --> 00:35:59,176
minute warm up maybe a mile or 2
and then they'll test you, you 

650
00:35:59,176 --> 00:36:01,956
know, after like a few minutes 
of running, whereas you're 

651
00:36:01,956 --> 00:36:04,736
actually getting data in the 
field of going, what's actually 

652
00:36:04,736 --> 00:36:08,072
happening after 13 to 20 miles, 
which is probably going to look 

653
00:36:08,072 --> 00:36:10,859
really different than in the lab
setting. like, okay, fatigue 

654
00:36:10,859 --> 00:36:14,219
isn't necessarily like that long
run, being out there for an hour

655
00:36:14,219 --> 00:36:18,380
and a half , 2 hours. 
It's not the same as just a few 

656
00:36:18,380 --> 00:36:20,957
minutes in the lab. 
So it's great to have something 

657
00:36:20,957 --> 00:36:23,187
that's more applicable because 
that, you know, the lab is 

658
00:36:23,187 --> 00:36:26,309
great, but and I say that as 
someone who spends a lot of time

659
00:36:26,309 --> 00:36:28,539
in there, but there are 
limitations and trying to get 

660
00:36:28,539 --> 00:36:31,438
out in the field is great to get
some true answers out there. 

661
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:35,173
Yeah, and this is on what we 
call the Mapleton Loops, where I

662
00:36:35,173 --> 00:36:38,617
guess you can find them on 
Strava, if you look at Connors 

663
00:36:38,617 --> 00:36:43,306
from last week. 
But it's designed as part of the

664
00:36:43,306 --> 00:36:47,280
Boston preparation. 
So it's got some uphill and 

665
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,098
downhill. 
It's not much flat, actually. 

666
00:36:50,099 --> 00:36:53,218
It's probably about a quarter of
it's pretty much flat. 

667
00:36:53,219 --> 00:36:56,891
The rest is up and down, which 
we'd assume should have a 

668
00:36:56,891 --> 00:36:59,638
greater effect on what's going 
on with the Achilles. 

669
00:36:59,639 --> 00:37:02,098
Got it. 
Especially in the Achilles. 

670
00:37:02,099 --> 00:37:06,493
But if I remember correctly, you
did a study looking at the use 

671
00:37:06,493 --> 00:37:09,865
of carbon plated, like super 
shoes on both uphill and 

672
00:37:09,865 --> 00:37:12,561
downhill compared to flat, and 
those weren't predictive, 

673
00:37:12,561 --> 00:37:15,606
correct? 
It was just kind of all that 

674
00:37:15,606 --> 00:37:16,378
individual. 
Yeah. 

675
00:37:16,380 --> 00:37:19,654
That one wasn't focused on super
shoes necessarily, though, that 

676
00:37:19,654 --> 00:37:23,251
was just trying to understand 
why are some runners better at 

677
00:37:23,251 --> 00:37:25,489
uphill? 
Some are better at downhill? 

678
00:37:25,489 --> 00:37:29,458
And all the things we expected? 
Well, all but one. 

679
00:37:29,460 --> 00:37:33,622
I assume the runners with longer
strides would be the better 

680
00:37:33,622 --> 00:37:36,347
downhill runners. 
That didn't show up 

681
00:37:36,347 --> 00:37:39,668
statistically. 
The only thing that did was when

682
00:37:39,668 --> 00:37:44,516
they're running on level ground,
the peak force, as they hit the 

683
00:37:44,516 --> 00:37:48,556
ground, those that preferred a 
higher peak force in level 

684
00:37:48,556 --> 00:37:52,592
ground running were the ones 
that were the better downhill 

685
00:37:52,592 --> 00:37:54,838
runners economically. 
And that makes some sense. 

686
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,582
They can handle the larger 
forces a little bit better 

687
00:37:57,582 --> 00:38:00,829
because they prefer them. 
So that's what that study 

688
00:38:00,829 --> 00:38:02,038
showed. 
Yeah, that's right. 

689
00:38:02,039 --> 00:38:04,858
I apologize. yeah. 
So. 

690
00:38:04,860 --> 00:38:09,672
Yeah, and there somebody else 
did a super shoe study on, uh, 

691
00:38:09,672 --> 00:38:13,278
seeing if the economy was 
beneficial for uphill and 

692
00:38:13,278 --> 00:38:15,935
downtown. 
I think it wasn't as big as they

693
00:38:15,935 --> 00:38:18,473
were expecting, but it makes 
sense from a training 

694
00:38:18,473 --> 00:38:20,502
perspective to emulate. 
Like you said, start prepping 

695
00:38:20,502 --> 00:38:22,390
for the things you're about 
ready to do. 

696
00:38:22,390 --> 00:38:25,694
It's going to be less of a 
impact on your body and be able 

697
00:38:25,694 --> 00:38:27,919
to tolerate it better. 
So just specificity training 

698
00:38:27,919 --> 00:38:30,036
makes sense. 
And so the same thing can be 

699
00:38:30,036 --> 00:38:32,779
said for footwear going, if this
is what you plan to use, you'd 

700
00:38:32,779 --> 00:38:35,518
be using it for those type of 
efforts because you need to get 

701
00:38:35,518 --> 00:38:39,240
your body used to that stuff. 
So it's funny how these basic, 

702
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:41,698
right, introductory exercise, 
science concepts, right? 

703
00:38:41,699 --> 00:38:45,020
Like specificity of training, 
like adaptability, all this kind

704
00:38:45,020 --> 00:38:49,078
of stuff, it's like, oh, yeah, 
that's not really any different.

705
00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:51,142
It's just the same thing. 
There's not really any magic 

706
00:38:51,142 --> 00:38:52,106
with the stuff. 
Yeah. 

707
00:38:52,106 --> 00:38:55,678
Yeah, when Jared did his New 
York marathon. 

708
00:38:55,679 --> 00:38:59,764
That was an interesting one. 
He started with Monday, received

709
00:38:59,764 --> 00:39:03,298
a box of shoes from Salkony 
prototypes. 

710
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:08,536
And they were thinking, yeah, 
let's have you try these, give 

711
00:39:08,536 --> 00:39:12,658
us some feedback sometime. 
But it was race week. 

712
00:39:12,659 --> 00:39:16,438
And Jared was so curious, he 
said, hey, can we try this out? 

713
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,246
The typical workout we do race 
week is 3 by mile at race pace 

714
00:39:21,246 --> 00:39:25,154
with 2 minute recoveries. 
And I said, well, we could do it

715
00:39:25,154 --> 00:39:29,262
on the treadmill and measure. 
And he was going to race in the 

716
00:39:29,262 --> 00:39:31,211
Canvara. 
Then he tried 2 of the 

717
00:39:31,211 --> 00:39:34,196
prototypes, and it was just 
sitting there right at the same 

718
00:39:34,196 --> 00:39:36,655
energy cost. 
And then the final shoe he wore,

719
00:39:36,655 --> 00:39:39,658
which happened to be the one 
with the lowest density foam. 

720
00:39:39,659 --> 00:39:43,558
All of a sudden he's 2 and a 
half percent more economical. 

721
00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:48,389
And so he decided, I'll do one 
more run in this, make sure it 

722
00:39:48,389 --> 00:39:50,964
feels good. 
And that's where he ended up 

723
00:39:50,964 --> 00:39:54,418
being the 1st American to Scott 
Fobble by just 4 seconds. 

724
00:39:54,420 --> 00:39:59,872
And so we thought, wow, that is 
your $10,000 shoe now, because 

725
00:39:59,872 --> 00:40:03,958
he got 25,000 as 1st American 
compared to 15. 

726
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,952
And the comment Jared came back 
with was he felt like it wasn't 

727
00:40:08,952 --> 00:40:13,176
giving him much back on the 
uphills of the bridges, felt 

728
00:40:13,176 --> 00:40:16,808
great level and even better 
downhill. we did actually do a 

729
00:40:16,808 --> 00:40:19,596
short study. 
That might be the one you're 

730
00:40:19,596 --> 00:40:22,980
thinking of where we compared 
uphill level and downhill 

731
00:40:22,980 --> 00:40:26,364
prompted by Jared's comments 
there and found actually that 

732
00:40:26,364 --> 00:40:30,118
was your perception, but it was 
helping you either way. 

733
00:40:30,119 --> 00:40:34,253
That's also great to know that 
one of the best runners in the 

734
00:40:34,253 --> 00:40:38,387
United States and the world does
not heed the advice of don't try

735
00:40:38,387 --> 00:40:41,038
anything new race week. 
It's like, oh, these are great. 

736
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:43,798
Let's do this. 
You're like, oh, you are human. 

737
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,678
You do make this do do the same 
things the rest of us do. 

738
00:40:46,679 --> 00:40:49,378
Right. funny. 
Yeah, I want one. 

739
00:40:49,380 --> 00:40:52,710
He's so thoughtful. 
He focuses on statistics and 

740
00:40:52,710 --> 00:40:57,570
numbers, and I guess seeing 
those numbers, even though it 

741
00:40:57,570 --> 00:40:59,998
wasn't statistically proven for 
him. 

742
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:04,568
It was enough that he thought 
these feel great too, that 

743
00:41:04,568 --> 00:41:06,982
comfort idea. 
So that led to these are the 

744
00:41:06,982 --> 00:41:09,980
ones I'm in a race in. 
So this is going to be a joke 

745
00:41:09,980 --> 00:41:12,645
that is going to go over most of
the listener and viewers heads, 

746
00:41:12,645 --> 00:41:14,278
but that makes sense as a 
statistician, right? 

747
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,944
Usually they're pretty like set,
but then you have to make some 

748
00:41:16,944 --> 00:41:19,386
assumptions as a statistician, 
so that's where he just made the

749
00:41:19,386 --> 00:41:20,938
assumptions and was able to go 
forward. 

750
00:41:20,940 --> 00:41:22,920
Right. 
Is that joke worth it? 

751
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,098
or does that, that's too much. 
Well, it depends who we got. 

752
00:41:26,099 --> 00:41:28,738
Okay, got it. which listeners 
are there? 

753
00:41:28,739 --> 00:41:30,504
Okay, got it. 
The status dishes will think 

754
00:41:30,504 --> 00:41:31,830
that's funny. 
Everybody else will be like, 

755
00:41:31,830 --> 00:41:33,778
what is he talking about? 
Okay, got it. 

756
00:41:33,780 --> 00:41:37,032
That's awesome. 
So, do you have any experience 

757
00:41:37,032 --> 00:41:41,518
with the trail super shoes? 
I don't have any, actually. 

758
00:41:41,519 --> 00:41:46,019
Okay. 
There's some interest there, but

759
00:41:46,019 --> 00:41:50,846
we've got... a couple Nike Trail
guys around here that are quite 

760
00:41:50,846 --> 00:41:52,559
good. 
Uh, Kristen's done amazing 

761
00:41:52,559 --> 00:41:56,354
recently, but, um, so we've 
chatted about it, but I haven't 

762
00:41:56,354 --> 00:41:59,458
done anything in the lab in 
terms of measurements. 

763
00:41:59,460 --> 00:42:02,052
Got it. 
Most of the early literature in 

764
00:42:02,052 --> 00:42:05,257
the trail super shoe world has 
been the actually because and 

765
00:42:05,257 --> 00:42:08,167
the theory behind this is 
because there's so much varied 

766
00:42:08,167 --> 00:42:09,468
terrain. 
Again, comfort is going to be 

767
00:42:09,468 --> 00:42:11,639
the biggest thing, right? 
You should wear what's most 

768
00:42:11,639 --> 00:42:13,438
comfortable and working best for
you. 

769
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:17,712
But an overall population level,
a lot of the super trail shoes 

770
00:42:17,712 --> 00:42:20,916
have yet to give economical 
benefits on that train. 

771
00:42:20,916 --> 00:42:25,533
Obviously, if you do it in a 
closed lab with on a treadmill, 

772
00:42:25,533 --> 00:42:28,018
there's going to be a different 
story. 

773
00:42:28,019 --> 00:42:31,109
But when you start getting into 
more technical terrain, when 

774
00:42:31,109 --> 00:42:34,508
they've done on field, which I 
think is phenomenal, to have 

775
00:42:34,508 --> 00:42:37,902
people run around on crazy trail
terrain with VO2 max, like 

776
00:42:37,902 --> 00:42:39,555
portable sensors. 
So I'm like, how did you get 

777
00:42:39,555 --> 00:42:41,994
people to sign up for this? 
But, like, apparently there 

778
00:42:41,994 --> 00:42:45,874
hasn't been as much economical 
gains when you add difficult 

779
00:42:45,874 --> 00:42:48,675
terrain in there. 
Does that make sense to you or 

780
00:42:48,675 --> 00:42:51,005
do you think there's some 
variable that we might be 

781
00:42:51,005 --> 00:42:52,127
missing? 
Because there's other things 

782
00:42:52,127 --> 00:42:54,791
like looking at power going up 
like, uh, like, uh, like, lower 

783
00:42:54,791 --> 00:42:57,451
shemity power and all these kind
of stuff that they haven't done 

784
00:42:57,451 --> 00:42:59,440
as much with because it's out in
the field. 

785
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,092
Yeah, but is there any variable 
you think is missing or does 

786
00:43:02,092 --> 00:43:04,792
that make more sense to you? 
Again, specificity of the 

787
00:43:04,792 --> 00:43:08,212
environment, these tools totally
make sense with road, even with 

788
00:43:08,212 --> 00:43:10,379
varied terrain, right? 
You're not worried about 

789
00:43:10,379 --> 00:43:13,229
technical footing, whereas when 
you add that other variable in 

790
00:43:13,229 --> 00:43:16,078
there, could that throw a lot of
these things off? 

791
00:43:16,079 --> 00:43:19,847
Yeah. 
Well, I haven't thought about it

792
00:43:19,847 --> 00:43:24,503
much before, but 1st ideas is, 
yeah, especially when you get a 

793
00:43:24,503 --> 00:43:28,762
rocky trail, a lot of roots, 
you're modifying and being more 

794
00:43:28,762 --> 00:43:31,858
careful about how your foot's 
going to land. 

795
00:43:31,860 --> 00:43:36,280
So maybe you're just not loading
the shoe in the way that it 

796
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,998
would be needed to get that big 
benefit. 

797
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:43,399
I'm surprised that they're not 
showing any or little benefit at

798
00:43:43,399 --> 00:43:46,085
all. 
It seems like something should 

799
00:43:46,085 --> 00:43:50,650
be helping there because that 
technology works so well on 

800
00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:54,298
uphill level and downhill, but 
with technical surfaces. 

801
00:43:54,300 --> 00:43:56,398
Yeah, there's some other things 
included. 

802
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:59,518
So, we just don't fully 
understand it yet. 

803
00:43:59,519 --> 00:44:02,759
I will clarify most of the 
studies that have looked at this

804
00:44:02,759 --> 00:44:04,378
have only looked at short 
distances. 

805
00:44:04,380 --> 00:44:07,485
They have not looked at 
ultramarathon type efforts and 

806
00:44:07,485 --> 00:44:09,898
done any blood markers over that
level. 

807
00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:13,756
It's been far shorter. 
I think like 12 K, maybe 20 K, 

808
00:44:13,756 --> 00:44:16,338
trail efforts, and shorter, 
which if you're talking about 

809
00:44:16,338 --> 00:44:19,484
efficiency, it's kind of the 
same thing where I really love 

810
00:44:19,484 --> 00:44:22,630
what you did with going, hey, 
let's actually get people out 

811
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:26,634
and do a long run and test them 
over the long miles, that once 

812
00:44:26,634 --> 00:44:29,780
you get up to those ultra 
distances where this stuff may 

813
00:44:29,780 --> 00:44:32,354
have a greater energy saving 
benefit, maybe it's different, 

814
00:44:32,354 --> 00:44:35,786
but I could still totally be 
wrong and it might be very 

815
00:44:35,786 --> 00:44:38,272
surface dependent. 
So hearing that going up 

816
00:44:38,272 --> 00:44:40,569
downhill flat, right? 
There's still benefits to these 

817
00:44:40,569 --> 00:44:43,422
shoes. 
Is it possible that adding the 

818
00:44:43,422 --> 00:44:46,914
unstable, soft surface 
underneath is what puts this 

819
00:44:46,914 --> 00:44:50,561
into a wash more. 
Or maybe the extreme hills do 

820
00:44:50,561 --> 00:44:53,925
something. 
Like we tested 4% up and down, 

821
00:44:53,925 --> 00:44:58,259
which is a decent hill. 
You know you're going on a hill.

822
00:44:58,260 --> 00:45:01,252
But trail running is a whole 
different story, some of the 

823
00:45:01,252 --> 00:45:03,875
grades that they go. 
So maybe they're going too 

824
00:45:03,875 --> 00:45:07,558
slowly on the uphills to get the
benefit if it's so steep. 

825
00:45:07,559 --> 00:45:10,318
So there's some thoughts about 
it. 

826
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,178
Yeah, that makes sense. 
Okay. 

827
00:45:12,179 --> 00:45:15,718
So back to specificity with the 
super shoes. 

828
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:19,553
You mentioned going, yes, that a
lot of the benefit seems to 

829
00:45:19,553 --> 00:45:22,424
happen around the ankle, 
reducing some of the torque 

830
00:45:22,424 --> 00:45:25,614
reducing some of the improving 
efficiency, because, again, as I

831
00:45:25,614 --> 00:45:28,485
mentioned, planner flexors calf 
function is really important for

832
00:45:28,485 --> 00:45:30,718
propulsion running, that may be 
saving that. 

833
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,539
However, there may be some 
additional things you may need 

834
00:45:33,539 --> 00:45:37,195
to do in the weight room to make
sure you're still getting that 

835
00:45:37,195 --> 00:45:39,658
kind of stimulus. 
Is that something you are doing?

836
00:45:39,659 --> 00:45:42,123
And if you are, what do you 
generally suggest to runners 

837
00:45:42,123 --> 00:45:44,458
that they work on? 
If there's any specific things? 

838
00:45:44,460 --> 00:45:47,976
Yeah. 
So I wasn't trained in strength 

839
00:45:47,976 --> 00:45:51,178
and conditioning other than 
maybe one class I took. 

840
00:45:51,179 --> 00:45:57,160
We have Braden in the training 
room here, the runstrong coat on

841
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,683
Instagram. 
And he's put some good things 

842
00:45:59,683 --> 00:46:03,390
out about this, but he's kind 
enough that he writes my 

843
00:46:03,390 --> 00:46:07,199
programs for me too. 
And we're usually in the weight 

844
00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:09,658
room after workouts on Tuesday, 
Thursdays. 

845
00:46:09,659 --> 00:46:16,299
And every, uh, time we're in 
there, there is something 

846
00:46:16,299 --> 00:46:20,278
heavily focused on that 
gastroxoleus area. 

847
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:24,490
And it's a variety. 
It's not always the same 

848
00:46:24,490 --> 00:46:29,409
movements that we're doing, and 
the amount of load, the speed of

849
00:46:29,409 --> 00:46:33,118
motion. 
Uh, we, uh, that varies. 

850
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:38,222
We also finish every strength 
session with semisometrics that 

851
00:46:38,222 --> 00:46:43,318
are focused mainly on patella 
tendon and Achilles tendon. 

852
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:49,284
So he's, I believe he's added a 
bit in the last couple years, as

853
00:46:49,284 --> 00:46:51,838
we've talked about this exact 
concern. 

854
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:58,405
So, yeah, we're doing at least 
once a week, some form of, uh, 

855
00:46:58,405 --> 00:47:03,958
cough exercise that has a pretty
heavy load and then finishing 

856
00:47:03,958 --> 00:47:09,133
the day with some isometrics. 
And then him and our PT have 

857
00:47:09,133 --> 00:47:12,923
also prescribed me some short 
foot exercises and things like 

858
00:47:12,923 --> 00:47:17,471
that, which also are maybe an 
area that we'd be worried about 

859
00:47:17,471 --> 00:47:20,878
when the cushioning of the shoe 
is so high. 

860
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,630
Do you think cushioning level 
impacts what happens with the 

861
00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:28,644
with the intrinsic foot must go?
I know you've done some stuff in

862
00:47:28,644 --> 00:47:31,164
the past on minimal shoes, 
running and minimal shoes and 

863
00:47:31,164 --> 00:47:33,880
extrinsic muscle size. 
What do you do you have any 

864
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,616
thoughts on what happens there? 
If anything, and I'm sure it's 

865
00:47:36,616 --> 00:47:37,160
variable. 
Right. 

866
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:40,678
Well, I feel like we get less 
pressure in that area. 

867
00:47:40,679 --> 00:47:44,099
So there's going to be a bit of 
detraining unless we supplement 

868
00:47:44,099 --> 00:47:46,378
with some barefoot running or 
some other things. 

869
00:47:46,380 --> 00:47:51,370
So you asked to question earlier
that I should add to a bit for 

870
00:47:51,370 --> 00:47:53,827
our recovery runs. 
None of us are wearing super 

871
00:47:53,827 --> 00:47:56,189
shoes. 
I know some people are in 

872
00:47:56,189 --> 00:47:58,318
different training groups and so
on. 

873
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,282
But I feel like we need some 
load on our feet, and when we're

874
00:48:02,282 --> 00:48:05,950
going slower, that's a good time
to use a shoe that's not built 

875
00:48:05,950 --> 00:48:09,928
for performance so much. 
And that gives us some of the 

876
00:48:09,928 --> 00:48:14,398
strain on the feet that'll help 
keep those a bit stronger. 

877
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:19,315
So, what we do in the weight 
room, what we do with the shoe 

878
00:48:19,315 --> 00:48:23,878
on our feet, the choice of shoe 
on our feet for training, I 

879
00:48:23,878 --> 00:48:28,090
believe we need something in 
there that's going to add to the

880
00:48:28,090 --> 00:48:32,302
strength of the feet because the
soft shoes are going to likely 

881
00:48:32,302 --> 00:48:36,865
atrophy a bit of our musculature
and so on if we're not having 

882
00:48:36,865 --> 00:48:39,270
that extra load. 
Yeah, that makes sense, 

883
00:48:39,270 --> 00:48:42,209
especially whether or not. 
Yeah, just because the strain 

884
00:48:42,209 --> 00:48:45,707
for sure is going to be 
decreased just because if that's

885
00:48:45,707 --> 00:48:48,881
where these shoes take strain 
and stress and torque off, 

886
00:48:48,881 --> 00:48:51,362
right? 
You need to still keep that in 

887
00:48:51,362 --> 00:48:55,062
some way because the body is an 
adaptive living set of living 

888
00:48:55,062 --> 00:48:57,118
structure, right? 
If you don't apply things to it.

889
00:48:57,119 --> 00:48:58,738
It will go, I don't need this. 
I'm good. 

890
00:48:58,739 --> 00:49:00,658
You're like, no, no, no, no. 
We still need this. 

891
00:49:00,659 --> 00:49:01,918
So it's just kind of that 
reminder. 

892
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,280
And that's helpful to go, hey, 
you know, some people may be 

893
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:08,360
fine with like the super 
trainers or what have you doing 

894
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:11,719
that for every single type of 
run, but variety is still really

895
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,065
important. 
And it's interesting here, the 

896
00:49:13,065 --> 00:49:16,573
same thing in the weight room. 
I love the run strong, by the 

897
00:49:16,573 --> 00:49:19,438
way, social media stuff puts out
such good information. 

898
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,078
So kudos to Brennan on that 
stuff. 

899
00:49:22,079 --> 00:49:24,699
But it's, it's the, what's 
interesting here, the same thing

900
00:49:24,699 --> 00:49:27,838
in the weight room going, hey, a
little variety is good, right? 

901
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,830
Just to keep things kind of 
guessing, to keep the stimulus 

902
00:49:30,830 --> 00:49:32,998
fresh, rather than because the 
body's very adaptive. 

903
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,060
You do the same thing over and 
over again, the stimulus, it 

904
00:49:36,060 --> 00:49:38,355
stops responding to that 
stimulus and that response is 

905
00:49:38,355 --> 00:49:41,925
less and less and less because 
it just tends to get used to it 

906
00:49:41,925 --> 00:49:44,730
and then there's less of an 
adaptation as opposed to going, 

907
00:49:44,730 --> 00:49:47,790
hey, a little variety is key, 
not just in training, it sounds 

908
00:49:47,790 --> 00:49:50,850
like, but also like for reuse 
and the whole idea of going, 

909
00:49:50,850 --> 00:49:53,655
hey, having maybe a little a 
couple different shoes to go 

910
00:49:53,655 --> 00:49:56,460
into, depending on the run is 
probably better idea than going,

911
00:49:56,460 --> 00:50:00,274
I'm going to use the same thing 
in and out day and day out just 

912
00:50:00,274 --> 00:50:01,798
to expose you to different 
stimulus. 

913
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,150
I even have 2 different trainers
that I just rotate through, 

914
00:50:05,150 --> 00:50:08,798
different models so that it's 
not the same load every time to 

915
00:50:08,798 --> 00:50:11,560
get a little more strength. 
They're both comfortable on my 

916
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:15,032
feet, but I can tell, you know, 
if someone put them on for me 

917
00:50:15,032 --> 00:50:17,998
and I ran, I could say, oh, 
today I'm in this shoe. 

918
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,458
Yep, that's got great. 
Awesome. 

919
00:50:20,460 --> 00:50:24,324
Um, can we ask where, so it 
sounds like you've got some 

920
00:50:24,324 --> 00:50:27,222
really cool stuff in the 
research world going, hey, 

921
00:50:27,222 --> 00:50:30,764
looking at some of the blood 
markers with, and then Achilles 

922
00:50:30,764 --> 00:50:33,982
tendon thickness and some other 
variables with the, with super 

923
00:50:33,982 --> 00:50:37,834
shoe use, where for you, as Dr. 
Hunter, where is your next 

924
00:50:37,834 --> 00:50:40,499
really big research interest? 
What is the question that keeps 

925
00:50:40,499 --> 00:50:43,728
you up at 9 right now? 
Well, the one that we're part 

926
00:50:43,728 --> 00:50:46,498
way through right now is what 
I'm excited about. 

927
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:51,131
The future ones. 
We actually have 3 that we're 

928
00:50:51,131 --> 00:50:55,825
kind of working through. 
But not laid out well enough yet

929
00:50:55,825 --> 00:51:00,455
to give much useful description.
Not that they're secret, but the

930
00:51:00,455 --> 00:51:04,967
one right now going on is 
looking at how much of a 

931
00:51:04,967 --> 00:51:08,727
benefit, one runner gets over 
another in terms of the 

932
00:51:08,727 --> 00:51:11,629
metabolic cost. 
And this is finding out why do 

933
00:51:11,629 --> 00:51:15,313
these shoes work better on one 
person and another, how could we

934
00:51:15,313 --> 00:51:19,611
modify a shoe to make it better 
for the one that doesn't get a 

935
00:51:19,611 --> 00:51:22,260
benefit? 
So our outcome variable is how 

936
00:51:22,260 --> 00:51:25,378
much of a benefit are these 
runners getting? 

937
00:51:25,380 --> 00:51:29,417
What we're putting into it are a
few things with running 

938
00:51:29,417 --> 00:51:33,474
mechanics and forces and so on. 
But the part that has me excited

939
00:51:33,474 --> 00:51:36,118
is, I should have brought one of
these shoes up. 

940
00:51:36,119 --> 00:51:39,816
They're all at school, though. 
Um, When we compress the foam 

941
00:51:39,816 --> 00:51:44,928
under the heel and the midfoot, 
It rebounds and we get some 

942
00:51:44,928 --> 00:51:50,453
energy put back into the body to
help propel us off the ground 

943
00:51:50,453 --> 00:51:53,784
effectively. 
And in this study, we're looking

944
00:51:53,784 --> 00:51:59,592
at how they compress the foam, 
the timing of it, the magnitude 

945
00:51:59,592 --> 00:52:04,429
of it, and then as it 
decompresses the timing and 

946
00:52:04,429 --> 00:52:08,128
magnitude of that. 
So we have a device that 

947
00:52:08,128 --> 00:52:12,242
measures the thickness of the 
foam under the midfoot and heel 

948
00:52:12,242 --> 00:52:16,043
960 times a second. 
So we get, um, really good 

949
00:52:16,043 --> 00:52:19,883
measures out of this, and we're 
anticipating that the amount 

950
00:52:19,883 --> 00:52:24,107
they compress and how the timing
of that compression takes place 

951
00:52:24,107 --> 00:52:28,715
is going to help predict, here's
the runner that gets a greater 

952
00:52:28,715 --> 00:52:31,059
benefit. 
And maybe that'll drive some 

953
00:52:31,059 --> 00:52:35,368
differences in stiffness of shoe
under the heel and midfoot or 

954
00:52:35,368 --> 00:52:37,580
whatever. 
That's where we'll pass it on to

955
00:52:37,580 --> 00:52:41,862
other engineers to think about. 
But that's been a really fun 

956
00:52:41,862 --> 00:52:45,328
study. 
The, the, the method is to put a

957
00:52:45,328 --> 00:52:49,778
magnet under the insole and what
we call a whole effect sensor 

958
00:52:49,778 --> 00:52:52,738
under the shoe, which measures 
magnetic field strength. 

959
00:52:52,739 --> 00:52:56,640
So as the field grows, We've 
calibrated that to how many 

960
00:52:56,640 --> 00:52:58,738
millimeters of foam are under 
the shoe. 

961
00:52:58,739 --> 00:53:02,537
That is brilliant. 
Can I throw, I'm super excited 

962
00:53:02,537 --> 00:53:06,866
for when you finish the results 
of the study, but can I throw 

963
00:53:06,866 --> 00:53:10,526
out a possible like overarching 
theme here, which may be really 

964
00:53:10,526 --> 00:53:14,510
good for our listeners to think 
about, that it sounds like this 

965
00:53:14,510 --> 00:53:17,808
is a two-way street? 
A lot of times we think of, oh, 

966
00:53:17,808 --> 00:53:20,748
there's this special shoe, you 
know, it's this is going to be 

967
00:53:20,748 --> 00:53:24,178
able to do X for me instead of 
going, this is a two-way street.

968
00:53:24,179 --> 00:53:27,966
It's the shoe, but also the 
runner, and can the runner 

969
00:53:27,966 --> 00:53:30,718
actually figure out how to 
optimize that shoe? 

970
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:34,950
Each shoe is a tool, right? 
And so are you, are your 

971
00:53:34,950 --> 00:53:38,230
biomechanics or your movement 
variability, can you even adapt 

972
00:53:38,230 --> 00:53:42,598
or can you figure out how to 
optimize this tool for you? 

973
00:53:42,599 --> 00:53:45,778
And there's a lot of variables 
again to it? 

974
00:53:45,780 --> 00:53:48,250
And there's some people who are 
going to be able to figure a 

975
00:53:48,250 --> 00:53:50,530
shoe out and other people who 
they may not, and that might 

976
00:53:50,530 --> 00:53:52,840
explain some of the variability.
That's the overarching, like, 

977
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,560
non-scientific, like, hey, 
here's the variables that are 

978
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,300
actually doing this, but is that
you think that's an accurate 

979
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:00,658
representation or inaccurate 
representation? 

980
00:54:00,659 --> 00:54:02,864
Yeah. 
Well, can I tell you another 

981
00:54:02,864 --> 00:54:03,358
story? 
Sure. 

982
00:54:03,360 --> 00:54:05,338
Well, get the point across 
there, I think, really well. 

983
00:54:05,340 --> 00:54:09,778
So going into the Olympics. for 
Connor. 

984
00:54:09,780 --> 00:54:14,736
He'd been racing really well the
year before, but was upset about

985
00:54:14,736 --> 00:54:20,105
how he was often getting 2nd in 
a race by just the smallest 

986
00:54:20,105 --> 00:54:23,356
amount. 
And we got him in the lab and 

987
00:54:23,356 --> 00:54:27,604
found he was more economical in 
the alpha fly one than the 

988
00:54:27,604 --> 00:54:30,656
three. 
And so he was wanting to do all 

989
00:54:30,656 --> 00:54:34,354
his racing in the one, which 
isn't great for marketing, but 

990
00:54:34,354 --> 00:54:37,378
for whatever reason, he was more
economical in it. 

991
00:54:37,380 --> 00:54:42,243
And so he was saving all of his 
Alpha Fly ones while doing all 

992
00:54:42,243 --> 00:54:46,824
his workouts in the threes. 
And then about 3 weeks before, 

993
00:54:46,824 --> 00:54:52,505
um, The Olympics, we got him in 
the lab another time and 

994
00:54:52,505 --> 00:54:55,325
retested. 
And now he was the tiniest bit 

995
00:54:55,325 --> 00:54:59,338
more economical in the three, I 
think, because he'd run in it. 

996
00:54:59,340 --> 00:55:02,278
So for so many miles now, he'd 
figured out, oh, here's how I 

997
00:55:02,278 --> 00:55:04,978
run in this shoe and now it was 
a little bit better. 

998
00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:09,787
And he was also taking slightly 
longer steps in it with a little

999
00:55:09,787 --> 00:55:13,846
bit less force on his body, 
which also indicates this is 

1000
00:55:13,846 --> 00:55:16,798
probably the better choice for 
you to use. 

1001
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:21,718
And then you saw how well he did
there getting 8th in Rio. 

1002
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:26,039
So our body does, it's anecdotal
there, but I believe our body 

1003
00:55:26,039 --> 00:55:29,998
does figure out when we do 
enough movement in that shoe. 

1004
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,267
Okay, now I'm loading it right 
and without concentrating on it,

1005
00:55:33,267 --> 00:55:37,425
your brain just figures it out 
and then you're going to be in a

1006
00:55:37,425 --> 00:55:41,278
better situation in the shoe 
that you spend a lot of time in.

1007
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,688
So I wonder if those of us in 
the biomechanics world actually 

1008
00:55:44,688 --> 00:55:48,380
need to go talk to all the motor
control people and go, hey, 

1009
00:55:48,380 --> 00:55:51,502
like, there's a motor learning 
component going on, how do we 

1010
00:55:51,502 --> 00:55:54,615
like, and they, I don't know 
this literature very well at 

1011
00:55:54,615 --> 00:55:55,259
all? 
I should. 

1012
00:55:55,260 --> 00:55:57,718
This is one of the classes I 
struggled with in my PhD. 

1013
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,897
How long does it take? 
How can you figure out how long 

1014
00:56:01,897 --> 00:56:04,684
it takes somebody to figure 
something out and do those who 

1015
00:56:04,684 --> 00:56:07,720
are able to adapt quicker and 
better tend to see earlier, like

1016
00:56:07,720 --> 00:56:11,296
benefits from some of the stuff?
Whereas if you give it enough 

1017
00:56:11,296 --> 00:56:13,078
time, Are there others who can 
figure it out? 

1018
00:56:13,079 --> 00:56:15,598
So I don't have answers to any 
of that stuff yet. 

1019
00:56:15,599 --> 00:56:18,745
Yeah. 
So my PhD student, Luke 

1020
00:56:18,745 --> 00:56:21,434
Vampker's Bilk. 
His dissertation is heading in 

1021
00:56:21,434 --> 00:56:24,478
that direction to try to answer 
some of that. 

1022
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:28,163
So I won't share too much or 
someone else will pull the study

1023
00:56:28,163 --> 00:56:31,078
before he gets it done. 
No, we will not do that. 

1024
00:56:31,079 --> 00:56:34,351
But that is something we're 
looking at trying to understand 

1025
00:56:34,351 --> 00:56:35,698
better. 
That's awesome. 

1026
00:56:35,699 --> 00:56:38,518
Well, you have made me extremely
excited for the future, and I'm 

1027
00:56:38,518 --> 00:56:40,858
going to go, okay, we're going 
to keep an eye. 

1028
00:56:40,860 --> 00:56:43,369
Good luck to your PhD student, 
by the way, as someone who just 

1029
00:56:43,369 --> 00:56:45,298
finished his PhD about a year 
and a half ago. 

1030
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:47,158
I wouldn't wish that on any. 
No, I'm just kidding. 

1031
00:56:47,159 --> 00:56:50,448
It was a good experience, but 
I'm also glad that I'm past that

1032
00:56:50,448 --> 00:56:53,230
now doing my own independent 
stuff, but it was a good 

1033
00:56:53,230 --> 00:56:55,198
experience to do that. 
So good luck to him. 

1034
00:56:55,199 --> 00:56:58,318
And again, thank you so much for
coming on. 

1035
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:00,426
This was an absolute, like, 
incredible episode to have. 

1036
00:57:00,426 --> 00:57:03,234
And to be able to share it, not 
just, hey, here's what's 

1037
00:57:03,234 --> 00:57:05,574
actually happening with a lot of
the leads, including yourself 

1038
00:57:05,574 --> 00:57:07,914
going, what are the experiences 
happening, but also from the 

1039
00:57:07,914 --> 00:57:10,956
research world and trying to 
apply this to the rest of us in 

1040
00:57:10,956 --> 00:57:13,519
terms of the recreational going,
these are some of the lessons 

1041
00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:15,457
you can learn. 
There's variability in how we 

1042
00:57:15,457 --> 00:57:18,118
respond to this. 
You have to learn the shoe. 

1043
00:57:18,119 --> 00:57:21,135
It is a new variable, if you 
choose to use this stuff, and 

1044
00:57:21,135 --> 00:57:24,383
you have to give yourself time 
to it, to use it, but then you 

1045
00:57:24,383 --> 00:57:26,703
also you have some variability 
in what you're using throughout 

1046
00:57:26,703 --> 00:57:29,479
the week, just to make sure, 
yes, you have your time to 

1047
00:57:29,479 --> 00:57:31,789
adapt, but also not forgetting 
the other components as well, 

1048
00:57:31,789 --> 00:57:34,792
and know that there is research 
to back this up, and not just, 

1049
00:57:34,792 --> 00:57:37,102
although the anecdotal evidence 
is really good if it's coming 

1050
00:57:37,102 --> 00:57:39,412
from yourself, Connor, Jared, 
like those are people that I'm 

1051
00:57:39,412 --> 00:57:40,798
definitely going to pay 
attention to. 

1052
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:43,840
But it's really good. 
So Ian, thank you so much for 

1053
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:46,192
coming on. 
As always, we can you can 

1054
00:57:46,192 --> 00:57:48,418
actually find a lot of Ian's 
work. 

1055
00:57:48,420 --> 00:57:52,172
Your website is very easy to 
find if you just look up Dr. Ian

1056
00:57:52,172 --> 00:57:55,378
Hunter, you can find all of this
stuff on the BYU website. 

1057
00:57:55,380 --> 00:57:57,766
Is there any other places you 
would like people to know about 

1058
00:57:57,766 --> 00:57:59,519
that can find you? 
I know you have some social 

1059
00:57:59,519 --> 00:58:01,569
media as well. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm, my name's 

1060
00:58:01,569 --> 00:58:05,325
spelled differently than a lot 
of other ins, at least in this 

1061
00:58:05,325 --> 00:58:07,399
country. 
I was born in England, so I got 

1062
00:58:07,399 --> 00:58:09,222
it. 
That's the only way my mom knew 

1063
00:58:09,222 --> 00:58:13,110
how to spell it. 
But BYUEN is my Instagram and I 

1064
00:58:13,110 --> 00:58:16,078
have a YouTube channel that's 
Biomec, Ian. 

1065
00:58:16,079 --> 00:58:20,158
I keep meaning to, I got to get 
another video up there soon. 

1066
00:58:20,159 --> 00:58:25,028
So, yeah, those are nice places 
to look for just general 

1067
00:58:25,028 --> 00:58:29,619
learning and maybe some fun. 
But for me and other people, if 

1068
00:58:29,619 --> 00:58:32,679
you're interested more in the 
research, then I'd recommend 

1069
00:58:32,679 --> 00:58:35,739
going to Google Scholar and 
searching for the name. 

1070
00:58:35,739 --> 00:58:39,479
And then you see the whole 
collection of articles that are 

1071
00:58:39,479 --> 00:58:41,518
published and some other 
information too. 

1072
00:58:41,519 --> 00:58:45,602
Yeah, you have a great, I have 
yet to put up a Google Scholar 

1073
00:58:45,602 --> 00:58:47,732
profile, but Ian has a 
phenomenal Google Scholar 

1074
00:58:47,732 --> 00:58:49,018
profile. 
They made it very easy to go. 

1075
00:58:49,019 --> 00:58:51,666
Okay, I know his research. 
Before we do this podcast, let 

1076
00:58:51,666 --> 00:58:54,538
me go see like make sure I've 
gotten like the review of all 

1077
00:58:54,538 --> 00:58:57,178
the other things and I'm like, 
wow, this is talk about an 

1078
00:58:57,178 --> 00:58:59,520
awesome research career. 
I hope I can emulate some of 

1079
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:02,570
that as I continue on. 
So thanks for also being an 

1080
00:59:02,570 --> 00:59:03,598
inspiration. 
Yeah. 

1081
00:59:03,599 --> 00:59:06,449
So great. 
So again, I also want to 

1082
00:59:06,449 --> 00:59:08,726
encourage his YouTube Dr. 
Hunter's YouTube channel is 

1083
00:59:08,726 --> 00:59:10,998
phenomenal, both from a, hey, 
looking advanced running 

1084
00:59:10,998 --> 00:59:13,794
mechanics to also just learning.
Some of the basics of bomb 

1085
00:59:13,794 --> 00:59:14,938
mechanical principles are also 
great. 

1086
00:59:14,940 --> 00:59:17,836
So please check that out. 
You can also find our stuff on a

1087
00:59:17,836 --> 00:59:20,057
variety of places. 
If you're listening to this on 

1088
00:59:20,057 --> 00:59:22,840
YouTube, on iTunes, on a variety
of different areas, or Apple 

1089
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,080
Music, I guess what's it called?
Fun of me for the other day for 

1090
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:28,560
calling it iTunes still. 
You can Spotify, you can listen 

1091
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:31,504
to us in variety of places. 
Obviously, this stuff comes out 

1092
00:59:31,504 --> 00:59:34,419
on video every Wednesday and 
Sunday, and then you could find 

1093
00:59:34,419 --> 00:59:37,594
us originally, all this, all the
major content you'll find on the

1094
00:59:37,594 --> 00:59:40,140
website. 
You can always email us at 

1095
00:59:40,140 --> 00:59:42,786
doctorsrunning at gmail.com. 
We do our best, try to get to 

1096
00:59:42,786 --> 00:59:45,042
emails, but as those similar Dr.
Hunter, we have so much stuff 

1097
00:59:45,042 --> 00:59:46,904
going on. 
If we're a little slow trying to

1098
00:59:46,904 --> 00:59:48,598
get to those, it's not you, it's
us. 

1099
00:59:48,599 --> 00:59:50,744
We got stuff going on, but we're
still going to try to keep 

1100
00:59:50,744 --> 00:59:51,898
putting out as much stuff as 
possible. 

1101
00:59:51,900 --> 00:59:55,365
Just like Dr. Hunter, like you 
said, the your comment earlier 

1102
00:59:55,365 --> 00:59:58,198
was like, hey, getting good 
research out takes time. 

1103
00:59:58,199 --> 01:00:00,178
I feel that more than I can 
explain. 

1104
01:00:00,179 --> 01:00:01,558
It's great to hear somebody else
say that. 

1105
01:00:01,559 --> 01:00:04,318
So for all you that are 
listening, Thank you so much. 

1106
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,058
Hope this is helpful. 
Keep running. 

1107
01:00:06,059 --> 01:00:08,397
And as always, the goal is help 
you think about what the art and

1108
01:00:08,397 --> 01:00:09,898
the science and stuff you're 
putting on your feet. 

1109
01:00:09,900 --> 01:00:09,960
So enjoy this wherever you're 
listening or watching track.