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Hello everybody, and welcome to 
the Doctors of Running podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet today at the round table, 
we have the founder of Doctors 

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of Running, doctor Matthew 
Klein, we have Doctor David 

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Sauce and I will be hosting. 
I'm Nathan Brown and we are 

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dipping into the mailbag today. 
We're going to be talking 

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through your questions. 
We always wish we had more time 

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to do these, but also to get 
back to you individually, but 

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unfortunately we don't have all 
of the time in the world. 

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So thank you for your patience 
with us in responding to you and

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we hope that these kinds of 
conversations can help at least 

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answer your question or and 
other ones that are adjacent to 

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these specific ones. 
Before we dip into the mailbag, 

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just a reminder that this 
podcast is powered by Scratch 

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Labs. 
If you want to utilize Scratch 

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Labs and you have not before, 
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We have a new code which is 

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That means that if you used our 
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can use this new code for 20% 
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Too much details to explain why 

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somewhere by somehow. 
And here we are with a new code,

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which means everybody who has 
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So the code is doctors running 

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20% off your first order and you
can try out some scratch 

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product. 
Matt, you are wrapping a shirt 

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today to even I didn't even know
your shirt. 

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This is this is unplanned 
reveal. 

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What's your thoughts on it? 
So far it's been good. 

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I haven't washed it yet so we'll
see how it goes through in the 

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wash, but all the this has been 
really, really comfortable. 

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Slightly like like snug and 
really nicely like gently fitted

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around chest and then opens up a
little bit down below. 

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But it's been really, really 
comfortable. 

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I was planning to do a little 
video review and then ended up 

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falling asleep with Isabella. 
I was working on a book chapter 

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and yeah, it's comfortable to 
sleep in too, so. 

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That's good. 
That's good. 

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Well, spoiler alert, we are on 
the verge of launching our first

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apparel shop. 
So hopefully that's going to, 

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I'm making no promises as to 
when that's going to be, but I 

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would hope that by the end of 
October, end of November that we

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got it kind of rocking and 
rolling for for the end of the 

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year. 
And we'll have a couple options 

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out there. 
And we're kind of excited to do 

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that. 
We've had a lot of requests for 

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it and we're finally pulling 
things together in our spare 

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time. 
So let's move into the mailbag. 

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Our first question is from Neda,
who's asking about flexibility. 

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That's what they said. 
Something I've been curious 

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about lately is shoe 
flexibility. 

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I find I'm really sensitive to 
stiffer shoes but don't quite 

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understand how to conceptualize 
this and don't see it broken 

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down in a way I can understand 
for every shoe review. 

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For example, I notice I feel 
quote clumpy in shoes and and I 

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translate that feeling to a lack
of flexibility for my mechanics.

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The latest troublemaker is the 
New Balance 880 V 14, whereas I 

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don't have this in the Ghost 15.
I'm trying to shift to lower 

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drop and have been playing have 
been playing strong but I'd love

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some more clarity about this 
factor. 

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So I stopped buying shoes that 
make me feel like a cat in 

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socks. 
Thank you. 

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So anybody have some thoughts 
about this kind of difference in

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feeling of this clumpiness and 
how flexibility may or may not 

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play into it? 
So what we want to clarify is 

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for a shoe to really work with 
you, it's not just about the 

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flexibility of especially the 
forefoot. 

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It's also like, is it bending in
the same place, in a similar 

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place as where your 
metatarsophalangeal joints and 

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where you actually get the 
flexibility of Trent that 

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sagittal plane or front to back 
flexibility. 

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So and the other pieces that not
everybody does well with stiffer

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shoes. 
And I know that this individual 

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is asking about the 880, which 
is not a plated shoe. 

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And this might be a a personal 
thing. 

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It's not even that stiff, 
although as we were talking 

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about this before and David 
mentioned it, the Ghost is it 

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has a fairly flexible forefoot. 
Much more flexible than yeah. 

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So there is just a teeny bit, 
it's not plated, but this is 

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just a reminder that plates 
don't always work for everyone. 

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If the mechanics of the shoe is 
not working for you and you need

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something that was a little bit 
more flexible based on your the 

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mechanics of your forefoot, 
that's just who you are. 

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So I the 880 isn't that much 
more stiff, but it might also be

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that where the shoe is flexing 
is just not matching with you 

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and where you're the joint line 
is for your metatarsophalangeal 

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joint. 
So it sounds like you just might

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need to look for shoes that have
a little bit more for foot 

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flexibility. 
If there's even moderate 

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stiffness, that might not be the
best option because then you're 

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talking about also if you're not
transitioning off the right way,

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it's going to feel stiff, 
awkward. 

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You're especially people that 
might have some sensitivity 

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upfront in terms of like your 
nervous system and how you, your

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sensory system is going to feel 
awkward. 

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So it sounds like you just need 
something a little more 

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flexible. 
And when I was you? 

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Go ahead, David. 
OK. 

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I was just going to say and 
potentially a little less going 

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on. 
I think when you look at the 

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880, there's a little bit more 
sidewalls, a little bit more 

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sulfurn. 
The foam is a little bit more 

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cloppy is not the right word, 
but it's just a little bit more 

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structured there. 
That was the way that Fresh Foam

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X is. 
And because I had a little bit 

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of issues with the, with that 
shoe too. 

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I I've kind of traditionally 
struggled with the Fresh Foam XA

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little bit outside of the 1080 
and the more ironically, but the

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other ones in the past I've kind
of had a hard time with. 

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But looking at just the way that
geometry is, they really build 

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up around that platform a lot. 
And so maybe looking at a shoe 

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that maybe has a little less of 
a build up for that individual 

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person. 
I know a lot of times we're 

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saying more sidewalls, more soul
flaring and more bevel. 

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More, you know, but sometimes 
more isn't always better. 

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Except in the fresh form more 
and then in that case that 

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mayhem, I never got to try it. 
So was that. 

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Would you like that? 
Shoe. 

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That's good. 
I like it. 

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I like it a lot. 
Yeah, actually the, I mean, the 

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video should be up by now by the
time this releases, comparing 

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that in the 1080, yeah, it's up 
on our YouTube. 

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It's uploaded. 
It's just a matter of when we 

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release it. 
Really quick, before Nathan 

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chimes in, I'd like to say 
something less important that I 

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need to get this out in the 
world in case New Balance is 

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listening. 
If you named your Max cushion 

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shoe, the more your minimal line
should be called, the less I'm 

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just going to leave that out in 
the world. 

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But isn't it like minimus? 
Isn't that it? 

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Is but it's, I think it should 
be called the New Balance the 

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less and that would probably not
sell, but. 

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I just love tanking Matt's jokes
just for the listeners if you're

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out there. 
The back on track with Nathan 

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actually having some we. 
Purposely try not to laugh, but 

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if you like Matt's joke, you 
should let us know that you like

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Matt's joke. 
That'd be great. 

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All right, so I'm going to yeah,
I'll talk. 

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I think there's a couple things 
with this question where I 

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really, it was left with more 
questions and I do have a 

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response. 1 is when you talk 
about flexibility, I think we're

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all assuming the forefoot, but I
also think that some of these 

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shoes have different amounts of 
flexibility in the mid foot as 

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well. 
And I wonder if that's where 

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some of the clumpiness is coming
through. 

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Like the Ghost narrows out a lot
more in the mid foot than the 

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1080 and the forefoot is a 
little bit more stiff in the in 

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the 880 than it is in the Ghost.
So there's a couple different 

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areas where that flexibility is 
different between the two shoes.

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And I was thinking that for you 
though, in terms of how can I 

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conceptualize the idea of where 
flexibility makes something 

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clunky or not. 
We have an article out there on 

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the rockers of the foot. 
And I think that if you were to 

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read that article, it might help
you understand how shoes are 

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trying to be constructed to help
with the rockers of the foot. 

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Because in theory, what or what 
happens? 

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Not in theory. 
What happens when we go through 

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a gate cycle barefoot, We may 
just from walking hit our heel 

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and we rock on that heel bone. 
And then when our foot is flat 

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on the ground, we rock over your
shin, moving over your ankle. 

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They call that the ankle rocker.
And at the end, you go up on 

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your big toe, that big toe 
extends and that's your 4 foot 

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rocker. 
And if you have a mismatch of 

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how the shoe is trying to mimic 
the rocker when you're running 

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in comparison to the actual 
rocker that's going on, that's 

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where the flexibility and 
clunkiness could come into play.

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Matt had talked about how lining
up the rocker with your 

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metatarsals, that would be that 
third rocker. 

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But if you have a a really 
rockered shoe, which the 1080 

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isn't that record, but it's more
rocker than a ghost like. 

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And and if you're not used to 
that rocker and you're feeling 

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yourself move forward on a 
little bit of a rocker before 

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the the your your shin bone is 
moving forward smoothly. 

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That's where some of that 
clunkiness could come. 

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But I would say in general, 
conceptually, it's does the 

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rocker that's operating on the 
shoe match how your current 

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rockers, your natural rockers of
your foot and ankle are working?

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Matt, what are you thinking 
about? 

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You brought up a really good 
point and I, I didn't, I think I

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kind of am biased because I 
don't think about the 'cause I'm

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usually going the opposite way. 
So the 880, what's interesting 

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about is they really widen the 
midfoot. 

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So I found that shoe more stable
than previous iterations because

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that's something personally that
I need. 

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I typically need a stiffer 
midfoot, but not everybody needs

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that. 
So another thing to consider is 

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not just how the forefoot is 
transitioning, but also if the 

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midfoot's really set up for you 
and not that there's significant

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joints in the sagittal plane in 
the midfoot, there's not. 

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But you may find that shoes like
the Ghosts that have a narrow 

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midfoot, like the wider to the 
sole in the midfoot, usually the

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stiffer it is. 
Like for someone like me that 

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works really well. 
Others that might not, the more 

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narrow it is and sometimes the 
softer the foam in that area, 

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the better it transitions. 
So and it may be a little bit 

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more flexible. 
So you might need not, you may 

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need to look at not just the 
forefoot, but also the midfoot. 

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Is that something as Nathan made
me think of two areas that you 

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might want to consider taking a 
look at, not just the 

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flexibility midfoot, but or the 
forefoot, but how wide is the 

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midfoot and how does it 
transition and kind of think 

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globally about the shoe. 
That's a great point, Nathan. 

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And I think when you're reading 
reviews, that's how you could 

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try to pick up on some of those 
things that may or may not work 

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for you. 
If you notice has a really nice 

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midfoot and you're noticing that
when you get that wide midfoot 

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that that would lead to a more 
kind of bending stiffness of the

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midfoot. 
And if you're like, oh, I like 

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that flexibility, you'd want a 
more narrow 1. 

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And when we talk about 
stability, inherent stability 

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and stability is not good or 
bad, it just is. 

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And when we talk about 
stability, a wider midfoot is 

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going to often be painted, 
whether intentional or not in a 

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positive light because it adds 
some guidance and structure. 

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But that's not necessarily the 
point of that we're trying to 

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make. 
So for you, when you're reading 

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reviews, you can look for that 
width of the midfoot and maybe 

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that could that could be a 
factor for you that could 

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matter. 
David, did you have something? 

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Yeah. 
I think just looking at the 

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general construction of the shoe
and this is, you know, further 

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down the line than anything that
we're mentioning, but when we're

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00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,840
looking at 4 foot flexibility, 
looking at the construction of 

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the four foot itself. 
And so one thing with the Ghost 

227
00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,400
is traditionally always had is 
deep flex grooves through the 

228
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,120
forefoot. 
And so there are some models, 

229
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,520
you know, there's like some 
Mizuno models out there, there's

230
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,560
some ASICS models like where 
they that's still, you know, in 

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00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:19,840
their component and in their 
line of footwear. 

232
00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:23,600
And if you do respond to having 
a little more flexibility built 

233
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:26,440
into the shoe that way in that 
outsole pattern where it kind of

234
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,960
cuts into the midsole, that 
could be something to look for 

235
00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,360
as well. 
Not necessarily stiff versus, 

236
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,440
you know, flexible, but looking 
at the actual component of how 

237
00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,800
it is itself. 
One last thing that I want to 

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00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:42,640
just add from a clarity of term 
perspective is there are two 

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00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:45,600
different ways that the word 
stiffness is utilized when 

240
00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,520
talking about footwear. 
One of them is bending 

241
00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,800
stiffness. 
So how hard is it for different 

242
00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,600
components of the shoe to be 
flexed and bent longitudinally? 

243
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,360
The other kind of way that 
stiffness is utilized is in foam

244
00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:02,080
compounds. 
A more stiff midsole is a less 

245
00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,640
compliant midsole. 
So higher stiffness in a 

246
00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:08,480
compression standpoint is 
different than what we're 

247
00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:10,720
talking about. 
We're primarily talking about 

248
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:15,000
right now this bending stiffness
and how that plays into a 

249
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,160
rockers performance under foot. 
Whereas stiffness as it comes to

250
00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,600
midsole components and 
compliance, that's a totally 

251
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:26,840
different term and most people 
don't care that I just said that

252
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,640
and that's fine. 
But if you were like wait, which

253
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,560
one are they talking about? 
We are talking about 

254
00:12:30,560 --> 00:12:33,040
longitudinal bending stiffness 
at different parts of the shoe, 

255
00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:35,720
not talking about the stiffness 
of a midsole when it comes to 

256
00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:37,960
the amount of cushioning. 
And that midsole stiffness, by 

257
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,240
the way, in terms of 
longitudinal can also be like, 

258
00:12:41,680 --> 00:12:44,400
Oh my gosh, torsional stiffness 
as well. 

259
00:12:44,680 --> 00:12:45,960
Well, let's move on to our next 
question. 

260
00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:49,800
This one's from Brendan and he 
asks about pain from shoes. 

261
00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,920
It says I'll be getting 
treatment for flat feet slash 

262
00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,200
plantar fasciitis which are 
causing me aches and pains in my

263
00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,840
feet, legs and hips. 
I'm beginning to feel that my 

264
00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:02,080
cushioned Hoka trainers are part
of the problem. 

265
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,640
I wear an insert with them, but 
they are they feel hard at times

266
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:08,440
on the foot surface as I walk in
them. 

267
00:13:08,760 --> 00:13:11,040
I know other people have had 
this experience from comments 

268
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,280
about flat feet and Hoka 
trainers on Reddit. 

269
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,160
What thoughts do we have here? 
Matt, go ahead. 1st to clarify 

270
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,880
and not Brendan, not to talk 
against you, that flat feet is 

271
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,640
not a pathology, it's just a 
foot position. 

272
00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,440
There are people that that 
develops over time. 

273
00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,240
There are people that are born 
with that it is not necessarily 

274
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:29,640
associated with plantar 
fasciitis. 

275
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,960
In fact, actually having a 
higher rigid arch actually has a

276
00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:34,920
greater risk for it. 
Not saying people can't get it, 

277
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,960
just know that foot position 
doesn't necessarily mean, oh, 

278
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:39,840
I'm going to have this is a 
pathology. 

279
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,080
So I want to clarify that 
there's positives and negatives.

280
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:46,920
So having that put position. 
So just be aware of that. 

281
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,080
How do you plantar fasciitis 
sucks though? 

282
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,920
That is a challenging thing to 
treat. 

283
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:56,280
I don't want to be this to come 
up negative, but know that time 

284
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,320
is an important factor in 
adequate management. 

285
00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:59,960
So it sounds like you are 
getting treatment, which is 

286
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:02,360
great. 
So hoping you have a really good

287
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,520
provider or somebody that you're
working with for that. 

288
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:08,920
I'm curious to get your two 
opinion because there's some 

289
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,920
things I've heard the same and I
have a similar experience and so

290
00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:16,280
this might be very biased so 
please check me on this. 

291
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,640
That with certain Max cushion 
shoes, they end up feeling much 

292
00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,200
harder to me because I'm someone
that needs a little bit more 

293
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,520
stability. 
When I'm on softer surfaces, I 

294
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:29,760
tend my joints stiffen up and I 
can feel this and actually makes

295
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:31,960
the shoe feel firmer than it 
really is. 

296
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,480
Like if I'm walking in them, 
it's like and I'm putting less 

297
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:37,320
force through it or I'm like 
I've just done some strength 

298
00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,600
training and kind of got some 
higher tone in my foot muscles. 

299
00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,720
The shoe actually feels softer, 
but and I haven't done that and 

300
00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,160
and kind of like I don't know 
how to describe Lucy good. 

301
00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,080
Like I'm just a little more 
flexible that day. 

302
00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,960
For whatever reason, the shoe 
will feel harder, not only 

303
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,640
because the shoe is, but because
I'm stiffening up more. 

304
00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,320
And I know those. 
I know there's a couple people 

305
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,800
on an off topic, those that have
flatter feet, often times a 

306
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,200
little more sensitive to side 
walls, which are really common 

307
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,640
and Hokas. 
And I'm not sure if they're 

308
00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:11,040
feeling not necessarily the 
midsole firmness or stiff the 

309
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,720
midsole stiffness or firmness as
we just talked about or if 

310
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,000
they're just having the the side
walls just push up against them.

311
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,720
I'm just throwing spell here but
curious to know what you 2 think

312
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:21,840
on this. 
Or, or a mix of both. 

313
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:24,480
I mean, there's they're putting 
insoles in these two on top of 

314
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:25,200
that, right? 
Right. 

315
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:27,120
Yeah. 
So you're adding an additional 

316
00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,240
stiffening agent, which is what 
insoles really frequently do. 

317
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:32,400
Yeah. 
That was the first thing I was 

318
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:34,840
thinking of was especially to 
the mid foot, those side walls 

319
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,200
can be a little aggressive in 
the Hokas, traditionally 

320
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:39,720
speaking and they've gotten a 
little bit better in recent 

321
00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,080
years. 
But like it's always been a 

322
00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:44,240
pretty narrow fit through that 
area, even though there was a 

323
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,440
wide cross-sectional area of the
platform. 

324
00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,520
But the actual upper used to 
undercut the medial longitude 

325
00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:53,720
and large pretty hard. 
And so you put an insole on top 

326
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:56,720
of that and now you're just like
really kind of stacking up in 

327
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,400
that inverted position. 
Well, relative, you know, just 

328
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,240
just the feeling of it, 
proprioceptive feeling, whether 

329
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,600
or not you're actually in that 
position. 

330
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,200
But you could argue that you're 
kind of double stacking against 

331
00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:08,880
it. 
And then like now your foots 

332
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:13,800
action on extra tension down 
there and even more prone to 

333
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:16,480
things like shin splints if they
can't splay and shock absorb, 

334
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,840
which flat feet in theory should
do pretty well at. 

335
00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:22,480
So you're kind of taking your 
one superpower away and just, 

336
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:25,680
yeah, so that's kind of more 
what I was thinking of if you're

337
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:27,560
just like double stacking too 
many things. 

338
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,640
I I I agree there. 
I think that uniquely I think 

339
00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:39,360
that Hoka is not I, I think 
that's that the conversations 

340
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:42,400
about Hoka are out there when in
regards to flat feet. 

341
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,160
I do think a lot in part due to 
what you talked about David with

342
00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:49,800
the side walls, but I don't 
think your experience in finding

343
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:54,200
a certain cushioning like 
cushioning stiffness or firmness

344
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:59,240
leading to planner foot pain. 
I think that can be spread 

345
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:04,079
across any sort of shoe brand. 
It just depends on who you are. 

346
00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:07,520
And I think that there is a lot 
right in that little moment that

347
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,000
has not been discovered in terms
of research. 

348
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,000
But I know for me over the last 
five years, pretty much any 

349
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:18,640
Mizuno Wave Rider or like the 
Wave Neo stuff, I would get 

350
00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,480
planter foot pain every single 
run that I would do them on. 

351
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:24,280
It wouldn't lead to ongoing pain
because I would stop running in 

352
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,960
them. 
But it was something about the 

353
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,000
specific stiffness of that shoe.
It had nothing to do with 

354
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:31,040
rockers because it was a bunch 
of different rockers and 

355
00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,640
everything. 
But the stiffness of that shoe 

356
00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:36,200
in the cushioning amount, the 
compliance just hit me exactly 

357
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:38,280
wrong. 
And I think that it may have 

358
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:43,600
something to do with the type of
vibration that shoe cushioning 

359
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:45,840
goes through as well as the 
tissues in your body. 

360
00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:48,040
And if those match up or if they
don't like, there's a lot of 

361
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,640
stuff in that room that I think 
could be playing a role as well.

362
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:54,640
And so in this realm for this 
person, I think it's good that 

363
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,320
you're doing treatment because 
that's the main thing. 

364
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,360
But if you're noticing that a 
combination of a shoe in some 

365
00:18:00,360 --> 00:18:03,840
sort of insert is leading to 
continual pain, I would just 

366
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,840
try. 
It sounds silly but I would just

367
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,760
try something else. 
I would move away from the Hoka 

368
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,440
for a while. 
Not because Hoka is bad, but 

369
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:16,120
it's not working for you if it's
continuously feeling too firm. 

370
00:18:16,360 --> 00:18:19,520
I would go find something that 
and you're saying like I wish it

371
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:23,160
was something more soft feeling.
I would go find a more soft 

372
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:24,440
shoe. 
We were just talking about New 

373
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:27,560
Balance. 
The 1080 and the more both have 

374
00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,520
much softer foams than even the 
880 does. 

375
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,360
So you could get a much softer 
foam underneath your foot and 

376
00:18:34,360 --> 00:18:38,040
maybe it's just see if that 
changes your experience and how 

377
00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,480
it is under foot. 
I will also say there are 

378
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,680
definitely, and this is not a 
knock on the brands, there are 

379
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,480
certain brands that just take 
orthotics and insole's a lot 

380
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,320
better than others. 
New Balance and Brooks typically

381
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,320
on average do pretty well hookah
sometimes not always as good. 

382
00:18:54,280 --> 00:18:57,080
So making sure that the shoe 
that you're utilizing is 

383
00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,120
actually designed to take 1 is 
really important because most 

384
00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:03,440
shoes are really designed with 
the stock insole and they're 

385
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,400
not. 
They don't always think about, 

386
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,480
hey, what happens when you put 
this additional thing in there 

387
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,360
and you don't know how it's 
going to act, which is why we 

388
00:19:10,360 --> 00:19:12,560
always talk about going, if 
you're going to use an insole, 

389
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,680
you know, make sure you have a 
shoe that can take those really 

390
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,480
well because you don't know how 
those two are going to interact.

391
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,080
So that might be something as 
Nathan mentioned, yet they just 

392
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,160
might not be. 
This might not be the best 

393
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:26,520
combination for you. 
So if you really need that that 

394
00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,840
new insole, you might want to 
look at other footwear that's 

395
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:33,200
potentially softer or just ones 
that are actually designed to 

396
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,560
take those. 
I've got a question for you also

397
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,920
in this question from Brendan, 
it says I'll be, I'll be getting

398
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,680
treatment for flat feet plantar 
fasciitis, which is causing 

399
00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,280
aches and pains in my feet, 
legs, hips. 

400
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,600
So he's kind of explaining a 
bottom up approach and 

401
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:53,040
philosophy to his foot pain. 
There's other people who talk 

402
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,480
about a top down approach where 
issues that your hip lead to 

403
00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,640
pain in your foot. 
Can we talk about those concepts

404
00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:03,920
for a minute and how how we can 
conceptualize where pain 

405
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,480
originates from and how the body
is interrelated? 

406
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,560
I'd be careful to use the phrase
where pain is originated from 

407
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,160
just because. 
Just to add, these two know 

408
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:16,720
this, but the pain is far more 
complicated than just tissue 

409
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,160
injury you can have. 
You can have. 

410
00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,040
Pain with tissue injury you can 
also not have pain with it is a 

411
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,560
far more complex and as we're 
understanding, even emotional 

412
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,400
response doesn't do justice to 
what that is. 

413
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,920
So be cautious using that. 
We have to be cautious using 

414
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,920
that. 
I will say it is is possible for

415
00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,200
be top down or bottom up it. 
It really depends. 

416
00:20:37,360 --> 00:20:40,160
We say the word phrase, it 
depends all the time, but there 

417
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,280
are compensatory things that can
happen. 

418
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,920
You just have to figure out is 
what you think actually 

419
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,240
occurring or are there a couple 
things going on which also 

420
00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,240
happened? 
Or is it really that you're the 

421
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,480
plantar fasciitis or opathy, 
which is the better term is 

422
00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:58,800
actually causing compensations 
of higher in terms of like 

423
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,080
you're painful, so you're trying
to go through a different range 

424
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,240
of motion to avoid it and that's
putting stress in different 

425
00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,120
areas. 
Or is it the other way around? 

426
00:21:06,120 --> 00:21:08,680
You don't, we can't say that 
because we haven't evaluated the

427
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:13,840
person, but that's that's a 
complex problem that hopefully 

428
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:20,880
you can solve with a really 
mindful and very compassionate 

429
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,560
healthcare person that can help 
you kind of dive into your a 

430
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,160
subjective and objective exam. 
That's that's appropriate to go.

431
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,840
Which one is it? 
But it can go both ways. 

432
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,640
It can also be totally 
unrelated. 

433
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,520
So yeah. 
Yeah, I just to kind of answer 

434
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,720
like Nate's question as well, 
like to clarify like what that 

435
00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,320
top to bottom or bottom to top 
type of methodology means. 

436
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:44,160
It's basically saying that 
something that you have on one 

437
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,200
end of the other, one end or the
other. 

438
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,360
So like let's say if you're 
going from bottom up, 

439
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,120
something's going on at the foot
or the ankle that is now 

440
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:54,960
affecting other things above. 
And that this is again, this 

441
00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:56,960
methodology. 
I, I want to preface this by 

442
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,760
saying nothing acts in 
isolation. 

443
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:02,440
And so it's usually a 
combination of stuff I, I hate. 

444
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:06,040
Like it's very rarely just one 
thing, but when we look at the 

445
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,720
foot and ankle, like let's say, 
OK, well it's in a flat foot 

446
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,120
position, you have more of a 
collapse of the arch. 

447
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:13,200
You're probably a little bit 
more everted at the ankle, might

448
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,280
have a little bit of an external
rotation to work on, the 

449
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,280
internal rotation to work on the
femur that puts pressure on the 

450
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:20,280
hips. 
And then it kind of is like this

451
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:22,160
little spiral effect as you go 
up the leg. 

452
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,440
Usually the same argument is the
exact same from the top down 

453
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,120
South. 
To me, it doesn't really matter 

454
00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:31,400
that much from a methodology 
standpoint of where you're 

455
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,200
looking as long as you're 
looking at everything because 

456
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:37,280
it's the same thing. 
I say, OK, well your hips not 

457
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,480
controlled well and you're 
internally rotating and 

458
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,400
controlling there and that's 
putting pressure on that side of

459
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,240
the knee and that's rotating the
two of you and that's causing 

460
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:44,440
you to collapse more at your 
ankle. 

461
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:49,320
So it kind of just two ways of 
saying kind of the same thing 

462
00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,480
and it's, and even that is still
not the case for everyone. 

463
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,440
You know, it's just kind of 
getting down to the nuts and 

464
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:56,840
bolts of things and looking at 
just what are the impairments, 

465
00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,600
what are you having a hard time 
with and what can we make 

466
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,280
better? 
I think that's what it comes 

467
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:05,760
down to because you can't ever 
really know what is causing the 

468
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,080
other because they usually occur
together. 

469
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:10,680
And so then people get hung up 
on trying to determine, oh, it's

470
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:13,920
just treat your hip to fix your 
foot or just treat your foot to 

471
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,520
fix your hip or vice or whatever
it is. 

472
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,640
And as you just finished with 
David, I think just reiterating 

473
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,240
the fact that hopefully you can 
find a provider who's able to 

474
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,880
look at all of it and determine 
where do you have significant 

475
00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,000
limitations and strength and 
mobility and flexibility of 

476
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,080
musculature, whatever it happens
to be. 

477
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,080
So you can just address the 
things that are actually going 

478
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,040
on for you, you and not just 
from a philosophy, because I 

479
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,240
think individualized treatment 
plan is way more appropriate 

480
00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,000
than finding some stock program 
based off of a theory. 

481
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,280
And that's kind of where I was 
hoping we'd go with that 

482
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,960
question. 
It's probably not fair that I'm 

483
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,320
asking questions that I want 
them to go a certain way, but 

484
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:55,120
that's definitely where I wanted
to go. 

485
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:58,040
So thank you, David and Matt. 
You're going to say something, 

486
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,560
Matt. 
My brain just stopped again. 

487
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,720
What was I gonna say? 
Nate. 

488
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,960
Nate wanted that. 
Yeah. 

489
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,480
He's just masterminding this 
whole thing. 

490
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,720
I will say that, yeah, top down 
versus bottom up, I'm not sure 

491
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:14,400
if at 100% matters because when 
you just do it like I'm 

492
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,280
presenting on a like, and my 
interest has shifted in my 

493
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,720
research to like return to sport
and trying to figure out how to 

494
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,960
get people back. 
And I think early on it's, it's 

495
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,160
OK to, to really focus on where 
the symptoms are coming from. 

496
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,560
And so it was like calming 
things down and like, you know, 

497
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,160
letting things heal, things like
that. 

498
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,160
But as you get back to return to
sport, it you should not be 

499
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,240
focusing only on one area. 
You need to focus on the entire 

500
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,880
limb, the entire body, because 
you're, if you want to optimize 

501
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,200
things, you need to put it's, 
you can't do the single piece. 

502
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,240
You got to put that piece back 
and work the whole thing. 

503
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,960
So, you know, it's it's, I don't
know if it's necessarily 

504
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,840
necessary to find like, oh, it's
coming from here. 

505
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,040
It's like, well, treat the thing
and then integrate everything 

506
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,400
together and get everything 
working well and just get back 

507
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:57,280
to it. 
I don't know if we need to 

508
00:24:57,280 --> 00:25:00,600
necessarily make it that 
complicated, even if that's even

509
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,440
necessary. 
But that's just a. 

510
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,000
What this makes me think about 
is we've done periodic condition

511
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,840
episodes. 
We really dive deep into 

512
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,360
conditions and it would be 
probably good to revisit plantar

513
00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:16,280
fascia pain and really diving 
into the condition of plantar 

514
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,360
fasciopathy or plantar fasciitis
specifically, because we've 

515
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:21,280
talked about plantar foot pain a
lot and all the different 

516
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:23,880
causes. 
But I think people do deal with 

517
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,760
plantar fascia pain a lot and it
would be good to dive into that.

518
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,400
So tally that for a future 
episode. 

519
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,200
We're going to move on to our 
next question. 

520
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,840
This is from Jennifer who asks 
for a shoe recommendations and 

521
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,800
they say hi. 
I have 1/2 marathon coming up, 

522
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,320
which is on mostly well groomed 
carriage trail with some single 

523
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,680
track out and backs. 
They run about a 10/10 to 11 

524
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,880
minute per mile pace. 
And they used to be a Canvara 

525
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,320
loyalist, but they're finding 
that they're not as comfortable 

526
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,400
on the longer runs. 
They also have a Brooks Ghost 

527
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:55,360
right now, but find that 
underwhelming. 

528
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,120
Their heel striker there. 
They said their feet also run 

529
00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:03,120
wide, so they're hoping to have 
a woman's wide option or maybe a

530
00:26:03,120 --> 00:26:06,440
men's version that would work. 
So she's considering something 

531
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,240
from Topo, but not sure what 
options would be best. 

532
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,760
But she also says that her 
preferences are usually towards 

533
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,120
shoes that feel responsive and 
light and not clunky, and also 

534
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:22,200
has a couple injury history of 
shin splints, knee pain that 

535
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,560
kind of come and go. 
So looking for a shoe 

536
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:27,520
recommendation for this kind of 
half marathon? 

537
00:26:28,120 --> 00:26:30,560
I have two thoughts and I'm 
curious to know what you 2 

538
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,200
think. 
So my immediate bias hearing 

539
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,000
this was thinking about the Topo
Mountain Racer 3, but I can't 

540
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,000
remember if that comes in a wide
or not. 

541
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,080
And the reason I thought about 
it is because it's been a shoe 

542
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,400
that I have really enjoyed even 
both on on long easy efforts. 

543
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,880
It's lower drop, it's nicely 
rockered, it's a teeny bit 

544
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,400
stable, which can also be 
helpful for certain people. 

545
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,280
And then it's just a little bit 
wider without being sloppy. 

546
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,120
It's a really, really, really 
nice fit. 

547
00:26:58,120 --> 00:26:59,920
I really enjoy. 
It's one of my favorite trail 

548
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:04,840
shoes and I think it can also 
handle a variety of of trail 

549
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,080
terrain. 
The only challenge is I don't 

550
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,800
remember if it comes in a wide. 
That's not matter for topo as 

551
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,920
much because they they're pretty
wide to begin with. 

552
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,000
They might. 
It might not matter as much if 

553
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,200
it does if specifics. 
Don't come in wide. 

554
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,400
I don't remember how low. 
Like the men's sizing. 

555
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,040
I don't know how some companies 
have this huge sizing rung of 

556
00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,080
like they go into really real 
like smaller men's sizes like 

557
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,360
six, 6 1/2, seven, which makes 
it for women looking for a wider

558
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,240
shoe can make that a little 
transition a little easier. 

559
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,560
I just don't remember how how 
small it goes, but the other 

560
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,920
show I was thinking about which 
we've had some interesting 

561
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,880
experience and then Kevara made 
me think about this is the 

562
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:45,960
innovate trail fly series, which
do come in a wide and I really 

563
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:48,400
enjoyed those. 
I really and but the road fly we

564
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,960
just reviewed as well, and I 
really expected not to like them

565
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,720
like this and both those shoes I
really actually ended up 

566
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,920
enjoying and they're on the 
lighter side. 

567
00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:00,400
They've got pretty good 
traction, but not so much that 

568
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,240
you can't use them on road. 
The trail fly and they do 

569
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,520
actually come in wide. 
So I'd say innovate actually 

570
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,000
might get a shout out here to 
go. 

571
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,000
Hey, look at the trail fly. 
That might be an option, 

572
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,360
especially from the Cabarra 
standpoint. 

573
00:28:11,360 --> 00:28:14,560
And they are so durable. 
They're really durable. 

574
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,840
Like, I'm very impressed how 
they've held up against my. 

575
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,720
How would we describe what do I 
do, what I do to shoes my 

576
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,840
destroyer feet? 
Yeah. 

577
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:26,000
Just to just to the destroyer, 
yeah. 

578
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,240
So I I. 
Throw them. 

579
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,960
Yeah, the Innovate Trail Fly 
series and potentially the Topo 

580
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,640
Mountain Racer 3 if it comes in 
a wide which I can't remember. 

581
00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:36,520
What do you 2 think? 
I just want to like define a 

582
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,600
carriage trail. 
Like crushed, crushed grout. 

583
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,880
Like finely crushed gravel. 
Like, really. 

584
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,480
Yeah, I was. 
Trying to figure out, like, 

585
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,920
packed dirt, crushed gravel. 
What are we talking here? 

586
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,360
Yeah, OK. 
Nathan, since you have more 

587
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,160
experience with with this 
terrain. 

588
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,480
Yeah, it'd be, it'd be similar 
to what we have with the green 

589
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,520
circle around here, maybe even 
more fine, more finely crushed. 

590
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,880
I don't know exactly what what 
they're doing, but I actually 

591
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,520
lean towards doing a road shoe 
instead of a trail shoe for 

592
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,960
this. 
I think that if it's mostly that

593
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,320
with a little bit of, you know, 
single track, that's not too 

594
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,920
technical, I, I think you could 
just get a much lighter, more 

595
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,880
comfortable shoe than what you 
would get with the trail models.

596
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,960
That that's kind of where I was 
leaning. 

597
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,480
So when I was thinking about 
topo, I was thinking about some 

598
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,840
of their trainers and knowing 
they like the Canvara, I was 

599
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,640
like, you know, maybe the, the 
Piba based midsole of the 

600
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,720
cyclone or even the spectre, 
depending on how they would deal

601
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,400
with the heel flare. 
Like those could be two real 

602
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,080
options for a rate, a rate 1/2 
marathon like this. 

603
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,560
I think just having a couple 
hours on your feet in those 

604
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,720
shoes might be OK. 
I know, David, you've taken the 

605
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:53,040
Cyclone 2 for long runs before 
and so you might be able to 

606
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,280
speak to that more. 
But if, if that would be too 

607
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,640
low, the Specter is a little bit
higher stack and might have a 

608
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,600
little bit in there. 
But I don't, I don't necessarily

609
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,360
think a trail shoes needed. 
And so that was a couple of the 

610
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,080
ones from Topo that I was 
thinking about. 

611
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:07,920
David, what were you think? 
What do you think? 

612
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,560
Yeah, I agree. 
I honestly, I was like, why not 

613
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,680
just a peg trail? 
Get something that's a little 

614
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,560
bit of an all terrain type shoe 
that can do a little bit of 

615
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,200
everything. 
Knowing that they like the 

616
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,240
Kanvara though, it's like, OK, 
well, you like something that's 

617
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,400
a little bit more flexible, a 
little bit lower to the ground. 

618
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,600
So trying to find something that
respects that. 

619
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,160
And you know, I was kind of 
having a little bit of a hard 

620
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,440
time thinking of something. 
I mean, like the first thing 

621
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,640
that comes to mind for me is, is
the Ultra Mont Blanc carbon. 

622
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,440
But then because it's a little 
bit wide, a little bit lower, 

623
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,360
it's light, it's responsive, but
it's a little stiff, you know, 

624
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,320
because it is plated, you know, 
so that's the one thing where 

625
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,000
like that kind of takes it off 
the list. 

626
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,320
Trying to think of something 
that has a little bit more 

627
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,880
flexibility upfront. 
And I, I kind of just come back 

628
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,520
down to some of those, those 
types of shoes, even something 

629
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,880
like a Brooks ghost. 
I know they said they, they were

630
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,120
a little underwhelmed by that. 
So it's like you look for 

631
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,360
something a little bit lower 
profile within those lines of 

632
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:08,040
shoes. 
And I mean, even something like 

633
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,760
like a Puma shoot. 
What am I blanking on the name 

634
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Puma? 
You blanket. 

635
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:16,800
Velocity. 
I'm so sorry, Velocity. 

636
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:20,920
You're right. 
Velocity, but that one has good 

637
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,800
traction under foot and it's 
decently responsive and it's 

638
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,560
like the 9 inch oz range like 
you could totally run crushed 

639
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,520
gravel and a little bit of 
single track in that I mean I 

640
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,600
don't especially if it's not 
that technical I don't think 

641
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,920
it's that technical based on 
what it sounds like but yeah I'm

642
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,560
kind of leaning that way I I 
feel like you don't really need 

643
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,440
to go and do something super 
intense you. 

644
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,040
Know if if you go Puma, 
definitely would need to find 

645
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,760
wide or half size up if you need
a. 

646
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,960
Little more space. 
Because they they run a little 

647
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,280
narrow, so that that would be 
the one thing there. 

648
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,520
I think you know, the other 
shoe, if it comes in a wide as 

649
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:57,240
well. 
I think going back to Dave, one 

650
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,800
of my one of David and my kind 
of more underrated shoes, but 

651
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,960
the try Noosa because it's a 
little bit more stable and it 

652
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,800
would be kind of Canvara esque, 
but has just a little bit more 

653
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:10,280
cushioning to it. 
I I think that could also be an 

654
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:11,960
option. 
And because of the slightly 

655
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,320
lower profile, if there is a 
little bit of technical nature 

656
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:16,640
like, it wouldn't really mess 
with you. 

657
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,840
And that outsole is very 
durable, and it's probably 

658
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,920
durable enough to handle some 
like crushed gravel or things 

659
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,520
like that. 
More technical trail, no, but I 

660
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:27,120
think that might. 
I agree that might also be 

661
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,160
something worth trying. 
But I do like the peg trail idea

662
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,920
because it's not that crazy of 
an outsole and if this person 

663
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,040
was willing to go try a ghost, 
they're not too married to the 

664
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,200
Canvara because those are pretty
different shoes. 

665
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:40,920
They're still the four foot 
flexibility. 

666
00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:42,240
But I think the medal between 
the two. 

667
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,120
Yeah, I was gonna, I was gonna 
comment that like, oh, maybe not

668
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:48,360
the peg trail because it's like 
moderately higher drop, but then

669
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,080
the ghost is too and I'm like, 
oh, right. 

670
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,640
Am I? 
Even more like COCA Challenger 

671
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,200
isn't that heavy, right? 
No, it's. 

672
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,880
A challenge challenger, ATR, 
Yeah, Nine, 9-10, something like

673
00:32:59,960 --> 00:33:02,400
that. 
So that's not too bad. 

674
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,400
Yeah, I'm just pulling it up 
right now to see. 

675
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,040
I keep looking behind me because
I'm like. 9.7 according to RW. 

676
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:13,240
It's a pretty solid, pretty 
solid option. 

677
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,400
Yeah, and that's like an all 
terrain shoe that you could hit 

678
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:18,720
some pretty hard trails in 
actually. 

679
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,120
Yeah, I think that if the if 
those if the main part of the 

680
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:26,760
trail is too fine and too 
groomed a really like more 

681
00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,280
rugged, higher lugged depth of 
lug trail shoe, it's not going 

682
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,200
to be fun to run 1/2 marathon. 
It would feel unnecessary on 

683
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,320
that. 
So that was my only thought. 

684
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,200
So if you do go trail, it's got 
to be one of those all terrain 

685
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,400
Rd. to trail type trail shoes 
and not something with deep lugs

686
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,760
like even ultra glide. 
Like I wouldn't want to do that,

687
00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:48,360
right? 
Do you? 

688
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:50,000
Remember the jaws? 
Yeah. 

689
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,720
The only weird part about that 
shoe is every time you put it 

690
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,160
on, you heard like Donna. 
Just kidding. 

691
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,840
All right, this is good. 
Let's move on to our next. 

692
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,600
Question I really hope Universal
is not listening to this. 

693
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,960
We got to get a cease and desist
real fast. 

694
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,239
I'm not the one that designed 
the shoe so I didn't name it. 

695
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,320
This is a question that I think,
admittedly was a little tough 

696
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,199
for us to come up with 
recommendations, so we might be 

697
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,480
kind of brief on this, but this 
is a question from Sharon. 

698
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,400
She's a physical therapist, 
running specialist. 

699
00:34:21,639 --> 00:34:24,040
Awesome that you're joining with
us. 

700
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:25,199
We'd love to learn from you, 
too. 

701
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,760
They're also a certified coach 
and gate analyst who owns their 

702
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,159
own practice. 
They currently have a client 

703
00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:35,080
with a Haglunds deformity and 
while they've addressed running 

704
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,520
shoe recommendations, this 
person also has a need to dress 

705
00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:41,719
up for work. 
So looking for casual and dress 

706
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,840
shoe recommendations that will 
accommodate the posterior heel. 

707
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,840
So we had talked about some, but
let's walk through those and see

708
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,159
what else comes up. 
You'd you mind if I go first 

709
00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,440
inside? 
Yeah, I probably have the most, 

710
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,360
I have the most significant 
Haglund deformity on both feet. 

711
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:59,400
And so this is something I 
comment on all the time. 

712
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:01,400
And tell us what a haglund is, 
by the way. 

713
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,840
So a Haglund deformity is, is 
also affectionately known as a 

714
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,720
pump bump. 
So on the back of the heel where

715
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:10,960
your Achilles tendon goes into 
the calcaneus bone. 

716
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,320
In some people that can get a 
little flared up or it can just 

717
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:16,120
be large, you know. 
So bone, this thing called 

718
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,600
Wolf's law is that bone will 
respond to the stress placed 

719
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,840
upon it. 
And some people like myself that

720
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,640
can grow out, some people can 
also have like little bits of 

721
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,200
inflammation in that area that 
can cause it to kind of swell or

722
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,160
get irritated and make it a 
little bit sensitive. 

723
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,160
Those of us that there are 
sensitivities back there, a hard

724
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,080
heel counter, which is typically
used, it's a hard plastic or 

725
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:38,600
some other kind of stiffening 
agent in the upper part of the 

726
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,280
heel that's typically used to 
create a little bit more 

727
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,240
structure and hold the heel. 
Well. 

728
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:45,640
Those who have hacked in the 
properties may not do well with 

729
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,240
those because that hardness is 
can be very irritating to a 

730
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:49,840
sensitive heel. 
So that's something I always 

731
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,440
comment on going, hey, you know,
how stiff is this? 

732
00:35:52,720 --> 00:35:55,280
If you like these, a stiff heel 
count or you'll like this. 

733
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,240
If not, if you were sensitive, 
what's going to read response? 

734
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:01,080
That's something I comment on. 
So I'm always in the same boat 

735
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,840
looking for that because a lot 
of dress shoes have no heel 

736
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,320
collar padding and they're 
really stiff and they can be 

737
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,360
really irritating. 
And I've had some pretty solid 

738
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:12,520
limping after casual shoes, so I
have a couple options. 

739
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,320
The only problem with these 
though is that if the Haggen 

740
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,000
deformity, which a lot of times 
a tight calf or excessive 

741
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:23,640
pulling there can irritate this.
If the issue is being driven by 

742
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,080
calf stiffness, this is where 
we're going to struggle a little

743
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,760
bit because most of the shoes 
that have flexible heel counters

744
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,600
are also zero drop or minimal 
shoes. 

745
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,640
So it's a little bit of 
challenge. 

746
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,520
You've asked a really great 
question that I'm still 

747
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,240
struggling with to be honest and
still searching. 

748
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:45,680
So the two companies that really
come to mind is I'm just doing 

749
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:47,400
it again. 
We just talked about this. 

750
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:48,880
My brain just. 
You're thinking of 0. 

751
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,600
Yeah, sorry, 0. 
Shoes in his mouth, but he's 

752
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,400
thinking of 0. 
Thank you, So 0 shoes in Vivo 

753
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,120
Barefoot are the two companies 
that make minimal shoes, but 

754
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:59,400
they also make leather dress 
shoes that I've used 

755
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:01,960
successfully, especially from 
Zero which is a favorite of 

756
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,280
mine, that have completely 
flexible heels with no counters 

757
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:06,680
in them and they look really 
nice. 

758
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,400
They're a little expensive, but 
they are great and can 

759
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,600
definitely pass as I've done 
many, many formal occasions in 

760
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:15,480
them and they have a flexible 
heel counter. 

761
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,680
You just got to make sure that 
they person appropriately 

762
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,320
transitions into them. 
I like being in a more minimal 

763
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:22,680
state throughout the rest of the
day. 

764
00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:25,120
Not everybody's used to that, so
you have to transition and make.

765
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:30,360
And if they have issues with the
Hagelin related to limited calf 

766
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,800
mobility, that might be a little
bit challenging. 

767
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:36,600
Curious if you 2 have any other 
suggestions for more like 

768
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,440
traditional heel drop kind of 
stuff. 

769
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,800
I know there's a company called 
Crew that makes some shoes and 

770
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,760
they claim like oh it's like 
supposed to take pressure out to

771
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,320
here. 
I just I haven't tried their 

772
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:51,880
formal line and don't know if 
they've got a soft counter or 

773
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:54,160
not. 
Yeah, I don't, I know some 

774
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,480
people have used like Cole Haan 
and they've done some 

775
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,680
collaborations with some like 
athletic type esque, you know, 

776
00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:01,920
lasts and footwear to make it a 
little bit more comfortable for 

777
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:03,360
standing for long period of 
times and walking. 

778
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,440
And I just don't know about the 
pressure on the backside that I 

779
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,160
don't, I don't own them, I 
haven't held them. 

780
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,240
I have a pair of Cole Haan. 
Yeah, keep going. 

781
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,240
Sorry. 
Yeah. 

782
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:16,040
No, no, no. 
Are you going? 

783
00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,640
To leave us with that, OK. 
Yeah, yeah. 

784
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,280
Sorry, what is? 
What's what's the deal over 

785
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,440
there? 
We also do it too, Cher. 

786
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:23,520
That's a great question. 
I got. 

787
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,560
I know a lot of people that use 
them and like them so. 

788
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:29,280
Yeah, I I like my pair, but 
they, they definitely have a 

789
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,480
typical heel counter with no 
padding either. 

790
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,920
So it's just, but, but that's 
just one pair. 

791
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,040
I I just don't know enough about
their whole line. 

792
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,760
I know Echo does some stuff 
similar to where they kind of 

793
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:44,640
will have more athletic esque, 
you know, lasts and 

794
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,640
constructions. 
But again, I don't know. 

795
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,080
I don't, I haven't held them. 
I haven't seen them. 

796
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:50,200
So. 
Well, to do. 

797
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:52,880
I think this person can. 
Formal shoes. 

798
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,600
Doctors or dress shoes, if 
anyone out there has them, send 

799
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:56,680
them. 
We'll try them, yeah. 

800
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,360
Yeah, for real. 
Review them but. 

801
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,240
Because I think it's a 
legitimate question and I think 

802
00:39:01,240 --> 00:39:06,560
just the whole dress shoe world 
in general would be is 

803
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,360
interesting. 
I think 0 is where my mind went 

804
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,440
as well. 
I have a pair that I throw on 

805
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:16,120
for work. 
Ultra has some models that are 

806
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,560
leather. 
I think that another company 

807
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,520
that I have never worn before, 
but I know that they have a more

808
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:24,960
flexible upper design with a 
flexural heel counter depending 

809
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,680
on how formal you need to go as 
all birds because they do some 

810
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,600
shoes that have very plain 
colors. 

811
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:35,000
And so if you can have like a 
white midsole, but just like a 

812
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,520
very plain upper and that's how 
dressy they need to go. 

813
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,800
But if it's like formal attire, 
I don't, I don't know all birds 

814
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,400
well enough to know, but they 
were in my on my mind of like 

815
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:47,760
this is a relatively nice 
looking shoe that is very basic 

816
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:50,880
and simple, doesn't look like a 
running shoe necessarily. 

817
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,080
They've got a lot of options. 
So that was another one that was

818
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:56,280
in my head because a lot of 
their heels are very flexible 

819
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,600
and don't have anything that 
would be too irritable for 

820
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,400
Haglunds. 
So let's move on to our next 

821
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,920
questions. 
Really quick, do you know that 

822
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,800
all birds actually is coming out
with a minimal line of shoes? 

823
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,720
You know what they call them? 
No birds. 

824
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,360
Birds I was. 
Thinking no birds. 

825
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:20,360
All right, here comes a in a 
similar vein, Doug has another 

826
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,080
question for us. 
Says you are game horrible. 

827
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,280
Joke. 
They have a seasonal item called

828
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,960
snowbirds. 
Anyways, keep going. 

829
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,240
I think that we have some tired 
folks on the podcast tonight. 

830
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:35,960
For those of you don't know, we 
record on Sunday, which weekends

831
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,880
are actually usually pretty busy
for most of us. 

832
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,640
Because like this like I don't. 
For me, that's when I got a 

833
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,400
little lot of PhD work done. 
I'm working on a bunch of 

834
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,680
academic stuff right now and 
Nathan I'm sure is the same. 

835
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,600
But then David hammers super 
intense long runs on Sunday. 

836
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:50,400
So we get, we get a little 
goofy. 

837
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:51,920
We're. 
Going to be OK. 

838
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,640
We got this, everybody. 
Let's move to Doug's question, 

839
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,720
he says. 
Dor Gang, how do you think about

840
00:40:57,720 --> 00:41:00,840
recovery footwear and how it 
relates to foot strength, not 

841
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:02,880
only after a run, but more 
generally? 

842
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,160
Do you always wear recovery 
sandals? 

843
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,600
Do you ever walk around 
barefoot? 

844
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:09,240
Do you walk around in zero drop 
shoes? 

845
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:13,640
How do you choose between types 
and what elements of recovery 

846
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,280
shoe design that really matters?
This is kind of a broad question

847
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,080
about our perspectives on 
recovery footwear, So what do 

848
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,240
y'all think? 
Yeah, it's such a tricky 1 

849
00:41:22,240 --> 00:41:26,560
because I don't think we really 
have much data to back recovery 

850
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,880
slides on footwear up with 
actual recovery, at least at 

851
00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:34,960
this moment. 
But I, I hate to do this, but I 

852
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,800
feel like it does kind of boil 
down to some comfort there to 

853
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,680
some degree. 
If it feels good on your foot, 

854
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,040
you like standing on it, you 
like walking on it, it's cozy, 

855
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,280
you know, like a cozy slide that
RIP. 

856
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:50,480
But I'm just going to keep that 
plug out there, save the cozy 

857
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,440
slide. 
But like that's a great. 

858
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,920
I just love standing and walking
around in that shoe, you know, 

859
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:00,320
But truth be told, if I'm at my 
place, I walk around barefoot 

860
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:01,960
most the time. 
My foot's kind of bugging me a 

861
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,760
little bit right now. 
So that's why I have the slides 

862
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,520
with me. 
But and sometimes that little 

863
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,000
bit of structure, like this one 
has kind of like that five layer

864
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,120
foam where it has a couple of 
softer layers and then a couple 

865
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,040
like harder, more dense layers. 
And so you still get that 

866
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,400
structured feel while like being
on a softer platform. 

867
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:22,840
I like that with these deckers 
cozy slides, but just finding a 

868
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,760
feel that works for you. 
Honestly, I, I I just don't know

869
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,880
enough as far as from a data 
standpoint to truly give a for 

870
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,480
or against on them. 
I think that there's a few 

871
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,560
things that we have some 
information about. 

872
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,920
Some of the information is 
regarding the philosophy of very

873
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,880
soft recovery footwear. 
The philosophy and for some 

874
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,120
companies is that create a very 
soft platform which causes the 

875
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:50,200
muscles of the feet to do small 
contractions and lead to an 

876
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,920
increase of blood flow by 
contracting muscles which 

877
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,800
squeezes blood vessels and moves
blood through the foot. 

878
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,280
There is really nothing to back 
that up as a viable option for 

879
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,920
improving recovery. 
But just to throw that out 

880
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,880
there, that's kind of the one of
the running philosophies for 

881
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,600
recovery slides and footwear. 
What we also have some 

882
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,920
information on is what barefoot 
walking does for the muscles of 

883
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,120
your foot and the bones of your 
feet. 

884
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,840
And if you progressively are 
utilizing barefoot, walking 

885
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,480
barefoot shoes in a measured way
that isn't going to overload 

886
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,240
your tissues, it can lead to 
hypertrophy of your intrinsic 

887
00:43:28,240 --> 00:43:30,280
foot muscles. 
So the muscles that are inside 

888
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,360
of your foot originate and, and 
in your foot. 

889
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:36,000
And it can help with bone 
density overall if you're doing 

890
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:41,160
it in again the right way. 
And it because of that, I tend 

891
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:46,080
to, when I can use barefoot 
shoes at work, I also like to 

892
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,880
walk around barefoot at home. 
And at the exact same time I am 

893
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:55,200
wearing my RIP Sniper mids from 
Decker's X Lab because they are 

894
00:43:55,200 --> 00:43:57,640
warm and it's getting cold at 
night around here. 

895
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,840
We're dipping down into the 30s 
this week at night and that 

896
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,040
ain't cold. 
It's it really? 

897
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,000
Isn't. 
It's not, says the guy. 

898
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:06,040
Says the guy from Santa Barbara.
Yeah. 

899
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,600
I don't know. 
We said 30 was cold on a pod. 

900
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:09,720
Someone was like that's not 
cold. 

901
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:14,280
So I that. 
Person I agree I agree in winter

902
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,840
we're getting there anyway, so 
I'm wearing them right now. 

903
00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,920
They're warm and also like as 
I've been dealing with, you 

904
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,320
know, irritation on the bottom 
of my foot or like if I just had

905
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,800
a really hard workout or just a 
really hard run and my feet are 

906
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,160
a little bit tender because of 
like the work they got. 

907
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,480
I do like having cushioning 
under my foot. 

908
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,320
I don't think there's anything 
special about the recovery 

909
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,160
footwear that's out there. 
You just need something that 

910
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,840
would provide cushioning so that
it it or that you don't need 

911
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,040
that. 
But if your foot is irritated, 

912
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,800
putting the little bit of 
cushion under there temporarily 

913
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:46,800
will feel great. 
And then you can have them to 

914
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:50,840
your foot and allow it to just 
feel nice and cozy as you're 

915
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:51,880
going through the rest of your 
day. 

916
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,920
So I think that the use of 
recovery footwear for myself is 

917
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,400
spot checked when I need it for 
comfort or my feet are cold 

918
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,720
based on the ones that I have. 
And then otherwise, I love being

919
00:45:04,720 --> 00:45:08,680
able to be barefoot when I can 
or wearing those at work too. 

920
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:11,480
Matt, what do you think? 
I would definitely agree with 

921
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,560
both David and Nathan that use 
it for what you need that 

922
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:16,120
moment. 
So I'm very similar to Nathan 

923
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,560
and that I'm pretty much always 
walking around. 

924
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,840
Right now walking around in one 
of the innovate shoes that was 

925
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,280
sent to me that's pretty minimal
and really comfortable as a wide

926
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,720
toe box and I can feel the 
ground. 

927
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:29,080
But the other company that I use
all the time is the 0 shoes, all

928
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,320
leather that I absolutely love 
because it allows me to be 

929
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,720
formal. 
But still I prefer being 

930
00:45:33,720 --> 00:45:36,240
barefoot all the time. 
And part of that's also too 

931
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:39,000
because I think we spend right 
now especially spend so much 

932
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,320
time in these massive maximal 
shoes at the rest of the day, 

933
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,400
I'm just craving the ground and 
want to make sure I balance that

934
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,160
stuff out. 
I'm sure if I probably was 

935
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:48,520
running a minimal shoes that 
probably want something more 

936
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,320
cushioned. 
So figure out what you need. 

937
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,640
If you have the opportunity to 
walk around in a more minimal 0 

938
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,280
drop shoe or whatever, whatever 
you can tolerate, great. 

939
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,680
You can build some great 
strength in your intrinsic 

940
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,440
strength. 
They use that term frequently, 

941
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,480
but I don't know people actually
measure strength that you can 

942
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,520
increase the size and 
hypertrophy your foot and ankle,

943
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,360
your foot muscles. 
It potentially worked them a 

944
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,200
little bit better by walking 
around and utilize them in a 

945
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,120
semi barefoot state and that's 
where I prefer to be. 

946
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:20,760
But if you have other needs, 
like something's a little sore 

947
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,840
and you need to unload your 
ankle, there's no reasons not 

948
00:46:22,840 --> 00:46:25,840
take another running shoe or 
another shoe that has a bit a 

949
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:27,760
little more cushioning or 
rocker, what have you. 

950
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:31,120
So it really depends on what you
need and what your goals are. 

951
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,440
I think the phrase recovery is 
challenging because each 

952
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:35,200
person's going to have a 
different view of what that 

953
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,480
means and what feels most 
comfortable to them. 

954
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,120
So I'd say focus on that comfort
thing. 

955
00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,520
Well, I think all we've learned 
through this is that we need to 

956
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:46,120
continue to campaign for 
Decker's to bring back their 

957
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,600
cozy line because they're so 
cozy. 

958
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:53,080
Although it's not. 
Anyway, yes, so cozy. 

959
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:54,360
All right. 
Cozy. 

960
00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:59,320
Line we're. 
Going to move forward, this is a

961
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,200
question from Chris, who's 
asking about uphill running 

962
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,160
shoes. 
So this person is going to be 

963
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:07,160
running a race that I'm going to
just read what they wrote about 

964
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,160
the race. 
So I have a question for you on 

965
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,640
the shoe choice for running the 
point to Pinnacle Half Marathon 

966
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:17,920
in Australia this November. 
The event is billed as quote, 

967
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,280
the world's toughest Rd. half 
marathon. 

968
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:24,920
It starts at sea level and is 
runs uphill 100% of the way to 

969
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:30,200
the top of Kunyani Mount 
Wellington, which overlooks the 

970
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,960
city of Hobart. 
The elevation gain is 1271 

971
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:38,560
meters or just over 4000 feet. 
The half marathon course with 

972
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:42,880
2/3 of that elevation gain 
coming in the second-half of the

973
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,520
race. 
So it's completely on sealed 

974
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:47,400
road surface. 
No, no trail. 

975
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,960
It's just a road uphill race, so
they're kind of wondering what 

976
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,080
is it, What are the 
considerations for what sort of 

977
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,160
combination of shoe mechanics 
would be good for running 

978
00:47:58,160 --> 00:47:59,640
uphill? 
Just to tell you what they've 

979
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,280
been running in, they do all of 
their long run easy run training

980
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,640
in the ASIC Super Blast 2 with 
faster workouts and local 

981
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:10,240
Saturday morning park run in the
Hoka Mach 6. 

982
00:48:10,720 --> 00:48:12,480
They're thinking of using the 
Super Blast for the half 

983
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:16,280
marathon, giving the comfort 
factor and the thick stack of 

984
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,560
reasonably white lightweight 
foam. 

985
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:22,040
So they want to know what sort 
of combination do you think is 

986
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:26,320
beneficial for uphill running? 
Yeah, it's actually, you know, 

987
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,520
it's kind of crazy, just a 
little slightly off topic, but 

988
00:48:29,520 --> 00:48:30,880
it within the realm of the 
question. 

989
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,960
So the rays kind of died off a 
little after COVID. 

990
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,520
I don't think they've officially
hold it. 

991
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,200
They've tried to, but they can't
get city permits, I think is the

992
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,520
the hold up. 
But we had a race here called 

993
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,880
Peer to Peak, where you start at
the coast and Lacuna Peak is do 

994
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:47,000
you ever take 4300? 
I think. 

995
00:48:47,720 --> 00:48:50,600
So you go up 13.1, you know, and
with 4000 feet. 

996
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:53,520
So we have one here that's like 
almost a mirror image with all 

997
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:55,320
of it being in the second-half. 
Yeah, when you go up to 

998
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:57,440
Gibraltar and up on a Camino 
Cielo. 

999
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,960
So that's kind of a fun little 
tidbit. 

1000
00:48:59,960 --> 00:49:01,280
Yeah. 
Yeah, no, that sounds awful. 

1001
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:08,240
Like I, I would, I wouldn't do 
it maybe, maybe for the novelty 

1002
00:49:08,240 --> 00:49:10,880
of just doing it, but I don't 
know if I'd erase it, you know, 

1003
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:13,200
but I don't know, it's a tough 
one. 

1004
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,040
Again, I, I think going to 
comfort like personally for me, 

1005
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:19,840
if you're going up something 
that steep, I actually don't 

1006
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,240
like it being that stiff. 
I feel like the rockers get in 

1007
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,600
the way a little bit when I'm 
trying to climb and push off my 

1008
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:26,640
forefoot. 
So I actually like a little bit 

1009
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,440
of flexibility. 
With that said, if it's a really

1010
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:31,680
flexible shoe and I'm just 
hyperextending my toes the 

1011
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:33,560
entire climb, that doesn't feel 
comfortable either. 

1012
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,480
So kind of like something right 
in the middle where it has some 

1013
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,160
flexibility under load, but it's
not something that I immediately

1014
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:40,760
am like, oh, that's really 
flexible. 

1015
00:49:41,440 --> 00:49:45,400
So finding a shoe that kind of 
coincides with that, you know, I

1016
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,400
wouldn't choose any super shoe 
for that. 

1017
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,920
I think I genuinely would 
probably go with the lighter 

1018
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,880
weight trainer. 
The mock actually sounds like a 

1019
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,000
pretty decent option for that. 
But again, that is if you can 

1020
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:59,640
tolerate it for that distance 
under that load, etcetera, 

1021
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,360
etcetera. 
So if you're struggling at 10K, 

1022
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:05,600
don't take it 13.1 on a 4000 
foot climb, you know, So it's 

1023
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,440
just a matter of finding a shoe 
that you feel comfortable with. 

1024
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,040
And honestly, the Super Blast 
isn't a bad choice if you 

1025
00:50:11,040 --> 00:50:12,800
already like it. 
Like honestly, I just stick with

1026
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:14,120
that. 
I don't know if I'd really rock 

1027
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,000
the boat, but just finding a 
shoe that works for your 

1028
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,160
mechanics for climbing and try 
it climbing, you know, like if 

1029
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,480
you have access to hills, I 
don't know how close you are to 

1030
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:24,880
that race if you live locally or
you have to travel for it. 

1031
00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,280
But if you're able to get some 
steep climbs in, find the type 

1032
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:31,720
of footwear design that works 
the best for you and be like, 

1033
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:33,000
OK, well, that one kind of works
for me. 

1034
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,200
Let's find things that are in 
that bubble, you know, versus 

1035
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:37,920
like, OK, that really didn't 
work for me. 

1036
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,320
And then now you're not finding 
that out on race day just 

1037
00:50:40,320 --> 00:50:43,400
because of, you know, a decision
you just made on the spot. 

1038
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,960
I think when I thought about 
this question and I tried to 

1039
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:51,200
answer it for how I how I 
personally would go and approach

1040
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,280
picking a shoe for this, I got 
really excited about thinking 

1041
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,640
about the geometry. 
So when you're running uphill, 

1042
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,360
that puts you in whatever shoe 
you're in. 

1043
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,960
If you're just standing there 
still, the resting static drop 

1044
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,680
of the shoe is going to be lower
because you're going to have a 

1045
00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:11,600
lower heel starting position. 
So when it comes to drop it, 

1046
00:51:11,720 --> 00:51:14,360
depending on where you're at 
with your shoe use and what you 

1047
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,520
like, a slightly higher drop 
shoe probably wouldn't hurt you 

1048
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,240
in this instance because it 
would probably keep it on a flat

1049
00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:22,000
surface. 
It would keep it more similar 

1050
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,560
and neutral with what you were 
used to on more flat stuff. 

1051
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,480
And then at the same time, if 
you are using a shoe that had 

1052
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,120
some sort of rocker, I would 
very highly recommend an earlier

1053
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,400
stage rocker to help you get up 
onto the toe earlier. 

1054
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,400
Because if you have a much later
stage rocker, like if you were 

1055
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,560
thinking super shoe and you want
to to take out something like 

1056
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,000
the Endorphin Elite, I think 
that would be a recipe for 

1057
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,560
disaster because it's so late in
the game that you wouldn't be 

1058
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,240
able to get out of that rocker 
unless you like land really, 

1059
00:51:50,240 --> 00:51:52,840
really far forward because then 
you just land on that rocker. 

1060
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:57,760
But in my mind, an earlier 
starting rocker position, which 

1061
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,120
the Super Blast and the Mock 
both have an earlier stage 

1062
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:02,760
rocker. 
So I think those both actually 

1063
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,520
fit that bill. 
But I also thought about shoes 

1064
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:10,040
like the Endorphins Speed 
because that has 8mm drop. 

1065
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:11,760
It's got an earlier stage 
rocker. 

1066
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,000
It's got a little bit of 
flexibility, but not too much. 

1067
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,280
It's lightweight. 
And if it's comfortable for you,

1068
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,920
something like that could end up
working out really well. 

1069
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,440
But I, I don't mind the idea of 
having higher drop, little bit 

1070
00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:29,320
of a rocker toe spring. 
I, I, I probably wouldn't go 

1071
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:31,920
that way because you're going to
be like David said, sitting into

1072
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,600
extension like the whole way up 
anyway because you're climbing. 

1073
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,960
So if you're sitting there at 
the more calm areas too, I don't

1074
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:40,280
think that's the best thing in 
the world. 

1075
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:43,640
And in terms of stack, I think 
that's where comfort comes in 

1076
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,760
more so than a specific stack 
height being better than 

1077
00:52:46,760 --> 00:52:48,000
another. 
What do you think, Matt? 

1078
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:50,360
I totally agree with both of 
you. 

1079
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:55,040
I think the having the higher 
drop and I struggled to think 

1080
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:57,560
about this higher drop early 
rocker. 

1081
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,080
And the problem is there's not a
lot of racing shoes anymore that

1082
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:03,080
have a higher drop. 
I think like 8mm is usually kind

1083
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:05,960
of the peak of where they go. 
So that kind of limits us a 

1084
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,200
little bit unless you start 
thinking about some of the 

1085
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,040
lightweight trainers. 
But most of them still are 8, 

1086
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,240
maybe 10 Max, so not not as high
as they used to be. 

1087
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,720
So speed is definitely a really 
good option. 

1088
00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:19,560
I didn't think about that in 
terms of the odds. 

1089
00:53:19,560 --> 00:53:23,960
Just it's got a gosh, the a non 
carbon plate. 

1090
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,560
It's a what type of plate does 
that have? 

1091
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,520
Do you remember? 
X Yeah, it's. 

1092
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,160
Like a plastic yeah it's like 
plastic plate so it's not it's 

1093
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:32,760
it's still got a little bit so 
and that shoe turns over really 

1094
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:35,520
nicely 8mm drop feels really 
good. 

1095
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,760
The reason I the speed bank you 
think about this is I am the 

1096
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,360
psycho that actually thinks this
race is a great idea because I 

1097
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:42,880
love uphill workouts, uphill 
temple runs. 

1098
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,440
I love climbing. 
My wife like knows this. 

1099
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:47,880
She hates it. 
Yes. 

1100
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:52,120
Climbing, yeah, climbing stuff 
is, is like uphill temple runs 

1101
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,080
are my favorite thing because 
like, I feel like my heart is 

1102
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:57,080
going to explode. 
But I think when I'm reading 

1103
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,280
this, given the challenge of the
race, my gut instinct is to 

1104
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,600
stick with what you've been 
training in and the Super blast.

1105
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:05,800
I I totally agree. 
It's a great option you're 

1106
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:07,760
comfortable with. 
You know it if you're not 

1107
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:12,000
looking to be to do like some 
kind of smashing APR when in 

1108
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:14,840
doubt, if something's that 
intense, I would go with what 

1109
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,040
you've been training in and what
you're most comfortable and to 

1110
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:18,680
be honest and not try to change 
things. 

1111
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,720
I know it's it's in November, so
by the time this episode comes 

1112
00:54:22,720 --> 00:54:23,720
out, it's going to be two weeks 
left. 

1113
00:54:23,720 --> 00:54:26,800
So I would stick with the Super 
blast unless you just happen to 

1114
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:28,480
have found in the meantime 
something. 

1115
00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,680
It's also higher drop earlier 
rocker and is really, really 

1116
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,000
comfortable for you. 
But I would I would stick with 

1117
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,720
what you know personally. 
I totally agree, Totally agree 

1118
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:40,040
with sticking with what you know
the. 

1119
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:45,000
Other shoe if if I was racing an
RIP but not because they ended 

1120
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:46,720
the line. 
The line still exists, it's just

1121
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:50,400
a different shoe. 
But Puma Deviate Nitrole version

1122
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,360
1 would probably be my choice 
for that. 

1123
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,680
A race like that. 
For me personally it's carbon 

1124
00:54:55,680 --> 00:54:57,800
plated, but that's a more 
flexible plate upfront, a little

1125
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:01,240
bit higher drop, not quite as 
high stack, more natural feel to

1126
00:55:01,240 --> 00:55:02,640
it. 
That would be my pick. 

1127
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,120
That or the endorphin speed 
would probably be what I would 

1128
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:07,680
pick for myself if I was to race
peer to peak. 

1129
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:10,200
Which is the one here the 
equivalent? 

1130
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,040
I literally was about to say not
elite but the deviate Nitro 3. 

1131
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:16,560
Well, that probably. 
Would be. 

1132
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:17,640
That's the one I was going to 
say. 

1133
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:22,360
Yeah, in the modern day, Yeah, 
going to click modern day and 

1134
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,920
like password two years. 
Right, so outdated. 

1135
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,120
That was actually just a quick 
side. 

1136
00:55:32,480 --> 00:55:36,440
When we posted, I posted our 
first video on the 1st Deviate 

1137
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,520
Natural Elite and Molly Seidel 
shared it on her Instagram and I

1138
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,280
was like, Oh my gosh, this is 
the craziest thing ever. 

1139
00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:46,640
Fanboy moment. 
Fanboy moment for sure. 

1140
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:48,000
We still need to get her on the 
podcast. 

1141
00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:50,840
I wonder if she'd come on. 
I think that she would have so 

1142
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:54,960
many enable things to save to to
the conversations that we enter 

1143
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,400
into about injury and kind of 
rehab and stuff. 

1144
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:02,240
But yeah, we'll see if see if 
that works out. 

1145
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:06,600
If anyone knows Molly and know 
that she want to come talk about

1146
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,800
that stuff, hook us up. 
All right. 

1147
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,280
If you listen, we love you. 
We'd love you to have you on the

1148
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,600
podcast. 
All right. 

1149
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,480
Our final question for the night
from Christine asking on 

1150
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:19,720
Instagram. 
They say hi. 

1151
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,200
Do you have thoughts on shoes 
that may push pressure away from

1152
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,960
the upper hamstring? 
I have referred pain in that 

1153
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,160
area from a rare mass under my 
tailbone and I'm trying to find 

1154
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,920
a shoe that we will alleviate 
some of the pressure for my 

1155
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,800
upcoming marathon. 
Can I jump on this? 

1156
00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,120
Yeah, go for it. 
Yeah. 

1157
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,040
So it's interesting. 
I'm talking with a friend of 

1158
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:41,440
mine right now about this. 
And what I'm about were to say, 

1159
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:45,320
we don't really have enough 
research or data to say to talk 

1160
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,160
about this, but there's been 
some small trends and injury 

1161
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:51,040
that's been noticeable over the 
last couple years with the 

1162
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,880
introduction of these super 
stack super shoe type things and

1163
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,920
these super rocker shoes. 
So we know that higher stack 

1164
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,720
height rocker shoes tend to 
shift loads from the foot and 

1165
00:57:01,720 --> 00:57:03,880
ankle away from there up to the 
knee and hip. 

1166
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,480
And some of my physician buddies
and I don't know if there's any 

1167
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:09,800
bias behind the start and notice
that we're seeing a lot more 

1168
00:57:09,800 --> 00:57:13,400
sacral and femoral stress 
fractures, which normally are 

1169
00:57:13,400 --> 00:57:15,320
very rare. 
And usually there's some kind 

1170
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:20,200
of, you know, there's like a, a 
nutrient deficiency going on and

1171
00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:22,440
some other things going on. 
But the other seeing them much 

1172
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:24,520
more commonly, the questions 
going like, hey, is there any 

1173
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,520
relationship between the these 
types of footwears and, and 

1174
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:30,560
increasing stuff up there? 
There's also been an interesting

1175
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:34,160
increase in the number of 
hamstring things going on 

1176
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,560
because if your stride gets 
length and there's more pressure

1177
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:39,880
at the hip extensors. 
So again, I have no research to 

1178
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,080
back this up, just kind of 
testimonial things going, oh, 

1179
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:44,840
that's interesting. 
I wonder if there's anything to 

1180
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,360
this or if I'm we're just seeing
this and it's just random. 

1181
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,920
So that said, though, I think 
using a type of shoe that may 

1182
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,480
not be as high stack or not as 
rockered may be a little better 

1183
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:59,760
if shifting load and and forces 
down toward the foot and ankle 

1184
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:03,000
may be helpful and potentially 
avoiding the really rockered 

1185
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,400
tall shoes that take stuff away 
from the ankle might be 

1186
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:08,440
something to think about. 
Not necessarily running 

1187
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,120
barefoot, but there's still some
options that we've talked about.

1188
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,160
Like the innovate Roadfly is a 
shoe I'm really enjoying right 

1189
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,000
now that they sent us. 
I know just second time I've 

1190
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,040
talked about Innovate, but it's 
a more moderate to lower stack 

1191
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:23,320
height, but decently cushioned 
Rd. trainer that's been really, 

1192
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:26,480
actually pretty awesome and very
surprised and how durable it is.

1193
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:30,000
But you know, something like a 
maybe even a Canvara or some 

1194
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:32,360
other things that maybe aren't 
the tallest thing in the world 

1195
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:35,440
and still have a little 
flexibility to them be something

1196
00:58:35,480 --> 00:58:37,520
to consider if that's 
comfortable. 

1197
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,280
What do you 2 think? 
Yeah, that or just meeting in 

1198
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,720
the middle and doing something 
maybe like your traditional high

1199
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:44,880
drop trainer. 
I mean, doing something like a 

1200
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,720
Brooks Ghost or Mizuno Rider 
where you do kind of still get 

1201
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,760
that lift where the calf in 
theory, you know, can kind of 

1202
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,520
get unloaded a little bit, but 
not generating that early heel 

1203
00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:58,280
rise quite as much that you'd 
see in these sharper rockered 

1204
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:00,640
shoes, Especially with those 
like real sharp late stage 

1205
00:59:00,640 --> 00:59:02,160
rockers. 
Like you mentioned the Endorphin

1206
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,560
Elite, like that would light a 
hamstring right up if you don't,

1207
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,000
if you have a sensitive 1. 
So that way you still have a 

1208
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:10,920
little bit more structure on 
your foot. 

1209
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,920
You know, you don't necessarily 
have to lean minimal per SE, but

1210
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:16,320
just something that isn't quite 
as dramatic on the rocker 

1211
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:19,200
experience. 
Yeah, those rockers really 

1212
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:25,000
lengthen out the the stride for 
sure, David. 

1213
00:59:25,880 --> 00:59:30,400
No, I I have nothing to add. 
I think that I agree with what 

1214
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,760
you all said. 
Well, we should probably wrap 

1215
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:36,360
things up because in 7 minutes 
the Cowboys are kicking off and 

1216
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:40,480
David is a Cowboys fan and he's 
he's yeah, it must have got 

1217
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:42,200
they're. 
Kicking off and so I did see it 

1218
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:44,000
got delayed, but that's a long 
delay. 

1219
00:59:44,080 --> 00:59:46,320
Yeah, it got delayed so lucky. 
I thought I was about to be 

1220
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,640
hopping in the second-half. 
I get to watch this thing. 

1221
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:50,480
Let's get to watch the whole 
thing. 

1222
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,480
So we are going to sign off if 
you have, if not already. 

1223
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:57,680
We, we would love if you would 
take the time, couple minutes 

1224
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,080
just to leave a what's it 
called? 

1225
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:03,680
A review of the podcast that 
helps the podcast grow and reach

1226
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,520
more people. 
We have a guest. 

1227
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:12,680
Oh, hello, Isabella. 
How are you tonight, honey? 

1228
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,000
She's. 
Trying to figure out where mom 

1229
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,160
went. 
She's like what's going on? 

1230
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:24,280
Hi, do you have heel bevel? 
Well, this is the best way to to

1231
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:26,840
finish up the show. 
Thank you all for joining us 

1232
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:29,160
tonight and we look forward to 
seeing you next time.