1
00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,680
Hello everyone and welcome to 
the Doctors Running Podcast 

2
00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,200
where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

3
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,400
art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

4
00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,360
feet tonight. 
We are reporting shortly after 

5
00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,840
the Green Bay Packers ended up 
defeating the Dallas Cowboys 48 

6
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,520
to what was it? 
I mean, at one point it was 

7
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,920
4816, so it was just kind of 
like the most unexpected game, 

8
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,920
except for David. 
You called it from the 

9
00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:36,360
beginning. 
Unless you're talking to me. 

10
00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,880
David is a Cowboys fan, yeah. 
I I said this even like you had 

11
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,760
said this before. 
We started recording that I had 

12
00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,760
said this even before the 
Packers got the nod in the 1st 

13
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,160
place. 
I said I pray we don't have 

14
00:00:49,160 --> 00:00:52,840
Green Bay. 
This was like, I don't know what

15
00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,560
it is about that team, but for 
whatever reason, it just feels 

16
00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,000
like Dallas is cursed every time
we play Green Bay. 

17
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,440
And I was like literally anybody
on the planet but Green Bay. 

18
00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,160
I would have rather lost that 
last game, got a wild card and 

19
00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,440
played on the road than play at 
home against Green Bay. 

20
00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:11,080
Totally. 
You should have just. 

21
00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,760
I should have just called Jerry 
up another game and like. 

22
00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,840
If only the refs didn't take 
away the win for the Lions slap 

23
00:01:19,840 --> 00:01:21,400
two weeks. 
Ago, yeah. 

24
00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,160
You know, I mean, it would have 
been a blessing in disguise, 

25
00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,920
right? 
Anyway, this is obviously not a 

26
00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,200
football podcast, right? 
Do you bring it up if you got? 

27
00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:34,440
It back to OG where Matt sits 
here quietly not having anything

28
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:35,960
to contribute. 
I think it is crazy though. 

29
00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:38,800
Like, it felt like I was the 
only person in the country, 

30
00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,040
right? 
Like everyone like Dallas 

31
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,160
doesn't like they're playing a 
team that's a bunch of rookies 

32
00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,160
and young people. 
Like there's no way they could 

33
00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:47,760
possibly win. 
I'm like there's every way they 

34
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,400
could possibly win. 
And here we are. 

35
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:53,920
The next episode of Doctors of 
Football. 

36
00:01:55,520 --> 00:01:57,680
I bring this up not because 
we're going to talk much more 

37
00:01:57,680 --> 00:01:59,920
about this, but if you notice 
that David is a little bit more 

38
00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:02,480
sad if he's a little bit off, 
you know why. 

39
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,840
If you didn't understand the 
context, you know why. 

40
00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:07,560
And so here we are. 
Today's episode is actually 

41
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:09,840
going to be pretty fun. 
We are doing another ranking 

42
00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,480
episode. 
We are in a position where we 

43
00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:15,720
are thankful that we get to test
a lot of different shoes. 

44
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,040
Companies are gracious enough to
partner with us to allow us to 

45
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,640
test a lot of different things, 
which gives us the opportunity 

46
00:02:21,640 --> 00:02:24,240
to compare things to each other.
That's harder to do when you 

47
00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:25,800
have to purchase them all on 
your own. 

48
00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,080
So we want to try to leverage 
that for the benefit of 

49
00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,400
everybody. 
And what we're going to be 

50
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,520
talking about from a rankings 
perspective this week is our 

51
00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,040
most soft shoe to our most firm 
shoe or actually the order we're

52
00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,960
going to go in is firm to soft. 
And so the conversation really 

53
00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,120
today set around centers around 
the idea of softness, what that 

54
00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,480
means in a shoe and then how 
that plays out in our 

55
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,960
perception. 
So when I think about softness, 

56
00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,560
I kind of have two categories in
my mind. 

57
00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:54,360
The first category is more of 
the scientific definition of 

58
00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,240
softness, maybe how shoes are 
tested in a lab, the material 

59
00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,160
science behind softness. 
And then there's the other side,

60
00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:03,280
which is that subjective 
experience when you're out on 

61
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,160
the road and you're actually 
running in the shoe. 

62
00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:08,760
And we have enough studies that 
show us that there's a lot of 

63
00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:12,560
difference between what it shows
on paper in the lab and what 

64
00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,640
people experience out on the 
road depending on who you are as

65
00:03:15,640 --> 00:03:17,560
a runner. 
So that's why we wanted to give 

66
00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,200
3 perspectives on this list. 
We have 10 issues that we're 

67
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,280
going to go through and we're 
going to kind of talk through 

68
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,440
our subjective feeling of 
softness and how that created 

69
00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,200
the list that we have. 
And we don't know what each 

70
00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,480
other have ranked these shoes at
yet. 

71
00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,640
We're going to be blind 
revealing these to each other. 

72
00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,720
So we'll see how much we agree 
or disagree and we actually 

73
00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:39,680
expect some level, if not major 
areas of disagreement. 

74
00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,880
If we happen to all agree, cool.
But I think we would expect 

75
00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,480
difference because we are all 
different runners and the 

76
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,320
perception of softness is 
different. 

77
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:51,920
So Matt, could you talk a little
bit about from that scientific 

78
00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,200
side of softness, some of the 
things that are considered and 

79
00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,040
how softness is measured? 
So typically the term that's 

80
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,480
actually utilized to to the 
official scientific term is 

81
00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,600
usually compliance of the 
midsole, although to be totally 

82
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:07,200
fair compliant, just very 
compliant. 

83
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,800
Midsole may be perceived 
differently by different people,

84
00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,360
but compliance usually refers to
how much the midsole compresses.

85
00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:15,720
That's not how much it bounces 
back. 

86
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,760
It's how much it compresses 
under load resiliency or 

87
00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,720
sometimes sometimes what we 
consider or use the phrase 

88
00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,520
responsiveness is how much 
something compresses and then 

89
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,240
bounces back or the OR what's 
the term we're looking for 

90
00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:31,600
reforms goes back to its 
hopefully original structure. 

91
00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:34,560
Those are two different things. 
So we want to clarify, we're 

92
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,560
talking about softness. 
We're not just talking about 

93
00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,240
responsiveness, how much the 
foam bounced back, we're talking

94
00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,600
about how much we feel the foam 
compressed under our foot. 

95
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,600
And again, Nathan mentioned this
that that perception can really 

96
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:49,520
differ quite a bit between 
people. 

97
00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:51,880
There is some early evidence 
that you suggest that if you 

98
00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,000
find something more comfortable,
there's some theory out there 

99
00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:58,280
that the compliance and how how 
the foam is compressing might be

100
00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:00,920
matching up with things like how
your muscles are firing. 

101
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,680
So let's not confirm. 
It's just some thought. 

102
00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,520
So if it feels better for you, 
that's great. 

103
00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,160
It also is under the there's an 
idea that some people think that

104
00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:11,280
more softness is better. 
That's not actually true, 

105
00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:14,360
although typically people tend 
to gravitate towards softer 

106
00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:18,280
things, there does seem to be an
optimal level that people seem 

107
00:05:18,280 --> 00:05:20,040
to like. 
So that's why if you look at 

108
00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:23,240
things like the Run Cat scale, 
the comfort assessment tool, the

109
00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:26,240
thing we'll ask does it feel 
like there's an optimal level 

110
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,000
rather than is it the softest 
thing? 

111
00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,520
But we're going to talk about 
the softest to the firmest, 

112
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,960
firmest being something that we 
perceive as being kind of a a 

113
00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,640
lower compliance. 
But again, that's going to be 

114
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:39,640
something different from 
responsiveness. 

115
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,760
I think a couple other 
interesting pieces within that 

116
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,920
scientific side that we've 
learned from some of the 

117
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,080
material science scientists who 
are in the game. 

118
00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,440
One of them is that with that 
responsiveness, it's not like 

119
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:53,400
the foam compresses 2 inches and
then comes back two inches. 

120
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:57,480
It's it's the amount of lost 
energy within that return to its

121
00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,640
original shape. 
So it's through a hysteresis 

122
00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:01,680
curve and the space between the 
two lines. 

123
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,000
So we actually went into a big 
conversation on on that on the 

124
00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,480
podcast. 
It was with the soccer team with

125
00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,320
Andrea Paulson. 
So you could go back and look 

126
00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:11,480
for that episode. 
I don't know the exact number 

127
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,520
off the top of my head. 
The other thing that I wanted to

128
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:17,360
mention too is 2 more things 
actually. 

129
00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,960
One is durometer is something 
that people talk about or will 

130
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,280
kind of do in their YouTube 
videos to show like how much it 

131
00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:27,120
deforms just from pushing on the
outside. 

132
00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,640
And it just does not give you a 
true picture of the softness of 

133
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:30,680
the foam. 
So you can kind of take 

134
00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,520
durometer and put it to the 
side, don't throw it out, but 

135
00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,200
it's not something that's going 
to give you a pretty reliable 

136
00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:39,000
idea of how it deforms under 
load. 

137
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,160
The other thing that we've 
learned about softness is that 

138
00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,520
the compliance of the foam is 1 
factor. 

139
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:48,120
Velocity is another. 
And so if you have a, a foam 

140
00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,760
that can comply, has such 
compliance, if you load it fast 

141
00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,080
versus loading it slow, it may 
have more or less compliance 

142
00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,840
depending on how quickly you're 
loading it, which again can 

143
00:06:59,840 --> 00:07:04,640
change the perception of of of 
what the person who's running in

144
00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:07,160
it can feel. 
So I think that's kind of the 

145
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,000
scientific side. 
Matt, you started to touch on 

146
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:12,000
some of the subjective stuff. 
David, could you go into that a 

147
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:15,120
little bit more and talk about 
what you think about when you're

148
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,320
running in a shoe and you're 
determining, is this because 

149
00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,640
somebody's going to ask you, is 
this soft shoe? 

150
00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:22,240
What sort of things go through 
your head as you evaluate what 

151
00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:23,400
soft means? 
Yeah. 

152
00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,120
So anytime we take a look at the
word subjective, it's 

153
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,120
essentially in the name, but it 
means like how something feels 

154
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,160
qualitatively. 
So outside of a lab, outside of 

155
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,520
a number, what does it actually 
feel like on your foot? 

156
00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,640
And again, like being in the 
qualitative nature of things 

157
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,640
that may differ from person to 
person. 

158
00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:45,000
But subjectively speaking, when 
I take a look at softness out in

159
00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:48,200
the field and putting something 
on your foot, I look at a couple

160
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,600
things. 
And one that I look at is 

161
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:54,200
probably the one that a lot of 
companies put a lot of emphasis 

162
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,720
in because it's what generates 
sales. 

163
00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,120
And that's that initial step in.
Once you put that shoe on, what 

164
00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,080
does that actually feel like? 
And that's your first 

165
00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,240
interaction with your foot and 
that platform and the floor. 

166
00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,400
And that is going to have a 
little bit of a say. 

167
00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,080
But things obviously change once
they break in and you're moving 

168
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:14,040
around and you're actually using
the thing. 

169
00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:18,240
So there's the initial step in, 
there's the actual movement and 

170
00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,160
you kind of hinted at it a 
little bit with compliance and 

171
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:25,760
resilience and kind of you know 
how the shoe actually operates 

172
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,560
under load. 
But once you move it, that might

173
00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:31,000
change. 
And so I when I look at it from 

174
00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,600
a field standpoint, I look at it
from how does the shoe interact 

175
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:40,480
upon load and how does that feel
subjectively. 

176
00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,360
So the initial step in, I mean 
you could step in, it's the 

177
00:08:43,360 --> 00:08:45,640
softest thing on the planet. 
But the second you start 

178
00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,720
running, if it doesn't have that
or it doesn't have any give to 

179
00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,320
the foam, there's actually an 
example later on. 

180
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,520
I think it's a little bit of a 
hot take on my list, but I think

181
00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:02,640
softness can get confused with 
stack sometimes and stack height

182
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,720
meaning how high the shoe is 
from the ground, how much foam 

183
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,640
there is usually measured in 
millimeters, I mean always 

184
00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:14,560
measured in millimeters. 
Let's say the Max stack height 

185
00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,000
right now, you know, 40 plus 
millimeters of stack under the 

186
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,360
the heel. 
Just because it says that 

187
00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,240
doesn't necessarily mean it's 
going to be soft. 

188
00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:24,640
It just means there's a lot of 
foam. 

189
00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,160
And if there's a lot of foam, I 
mean it may or may not compress 

190
00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,280
a lot. 
Sometimes there's less bend to 

191
00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:32,760
it because there's so much foam.
So it might actually feel more 

192
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,800
rigid. 
So it really just comes down to 

193
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,040
what you feel under your foot 
and that may or may not be 

194
00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,800
different between people and 
that may or may not be different

195
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:47,280
between the materials used and 
the materials being used might 

196
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:49,960
still be interacted different 
between the people and the paces

197
00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:51,160
that they're putting the shoe 
through. 

198
00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,400
So I know Matt is itching to 
speak and I'm just talking over 

199
00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,760
him right now, but it's my time 
to talk Matt and not kidding, go

200
00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,680
find. 
So the couple thing just to you,

201
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,080
you brought up some really 
awesome points that stack height

202
00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,280
does not necessarily mean softer
and we've seen that very 

203
00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:09,320
frequently. 
There's some other research out 

204
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,080
there that a lot of the things 
that will really influence what 

205
00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,480
you feel are usually things that
are closest to your foot. 

206
00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:18,880
So an insole can play heavily 
into how soft it feels. 

207
00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:20,680
I think that's one of the 
reasons Saucony, they've been 

208
00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:23,960
using Power Run Plus and a 
couple models are using Power 

209
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,160
Run PB actually in their 
insoles. 

210
00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,200
And so that will that will 
change how you might be doing 

211
00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,720
that too. 
And then I I think, yeah, I know

212
00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,480
a couple companies are. 
So again people are actually put

213
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,880
really putting a lot of work 
into their insoles because it 

214
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,800
does definitely impact how you 
feel. 

215
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,400
The other things that will 
impact this is what's happening 

216
00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:43,560
like in the strobe of Ward and 
the stuff right into the foot. 

217
00:10:43,560 --> 00:10:46,720
So if you have a shoe where 
let's say like it has a carbon 

218
00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,560
plate or some kind of plate, if 
that's really close to the foot,

219
00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,600
that may make the shoe feel 
firmer because when your foot is

220
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,320
contacting that, that is the 
first thing proprioception 

221
00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,920
you're feeling. 
So don't assume and I let Nathan

222
00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,880
David hit this that I, you know,
hopefully this is not me pooping

223
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,440
on others, but the whole like 
pushing into the side of the 

224
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,680
shoe and going, oh, here's the 
durometer, you're not like 

225
00:11:08,680 --> 00:11:11,680
loading the shoe correctly. 
You're loading in like from the 

226
00:11:11,680 --> 00:11:15,240
transverse plane frontal plant 
like that's not how the shoe is 

227
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,600
loaded. 
That's not how it's going to 

228
00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:18,600
feel. 
And then you have like, you can 

229
00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,800
sometimes have. 
Yeah, like multiple materials 

230
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,160
there, multiple mid soles, 
David. 

231
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:24,320
Go. 
I was just going to say, think 

232
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:26,640
about how much force you're 
putting in with your thumb from 

233
00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:29,800
the transverse plane versus how 
much force you're putting in 

234
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:34,960
from your entire body down onto 
the shoe multiple times your 

235
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,000
body weight. 
Yeah, like it just doesn't add 

236
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,120
up at all. 
One other thing worth noting too

237
00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,080
is from the science side, the 
scientific side of looking at 

238
00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,400
materials. 
There's no standardized way for 

239
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,720
companies to report the softness
of their shoes. 

240
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,960
Some of them are just reporting 
the foam itself, which does not 

241
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,560
incorporate the impact of the 
outsole on the amount of 

242
00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:56,920
firmness or the insole and all 
the other components. 

243
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,280
And so it really matters how 
companies choose to report this.

244
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,720
But we don't have a standardized
way. 

245
00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:06,000
So just because Hilton says it's
super soft, it's hard to compare

246
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,480
that. 
And that's kind of what's fun 

247
00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,840
about the list we're about to go
through is just to kind of 

248
00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:14,040
compare so. 
On a side note, side note, I 

249
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:16,720
will say we have insider 
information that the companies 

250
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:18,960
that too tend to use the 
impactors like the things that 

251
00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,280
you see slamming down. 
Usually their Their 

252
00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,600
justification for why they're 
using that is that they hate 

253
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,640
their downstairs neighbors. 
Because it's so I. 

254
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,720
Really thought that was about to
go off a handle here for a 

255
00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:32,240
second. 
I was about to be like, oh man, 

256
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:34,000
are we going to cut something. 
We're. 

257
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,280
So happy I get that. 
I'm sorry. 

258
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,440
Let's go. 
So this finally gets us to our 

259
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:44,440
subjective of the day and that 
just is us asking you all, when 

260
00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,840
you think about softness of a 
shoe, what is going through your

261
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:50,360
mind? 
What sort of questions are you 

262
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,080
answering? 
What sort of sensations are you 

263
00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,320
describing? 
We'd love to hear what sort of 

264
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,800
ways that you describe as David 
said that qualitative data, that

265
00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,680
information that you give about 
what makes a shoe soft or firm 

266
00:13:01,680 --> 00:13:03,200
and what parts you care about 
the most. 

267
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:06,560
So here we go. 
I am going to do a couple 

268
00:13:06,560 --> 00:13:08,560
things. 
The first one is I am going to 

269
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:11,760
list all of the shoes. 
So maybe after I list it, you 

270
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,640
could rewind this and pause it 
and and you know, write it, 

271
00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:16,080
write them all down and make 
your list. 

272
00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,200
See how much you agree with our 
takes on these. 

273
00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,720
Obviously, you may not have been
able to run in all of these, but

274
00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,480
you could kind of guess where 
you think these might fall, even

275
00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:25,320
just from what you've read or 
heard before. 

276
00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:27,200
So I'm going to read through all
of those. 

277
00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:31,080
And then we're going to go all 
the way from our 10th most soft 

278
00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,200
shoe, so our firmest shoe, all 
the way down to our softest shoe

279
00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,680
in terms of our subjective 
report of what we think is soft.

280
00:13:37,680 --> 00:13:39,920
And we'll kind of talk about why
we ranked it where we were. 

281
00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:43,440
So here's the list of shoes. 
We have the New Balance SC 

282
00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:49,000
Trainer version 2, the Nike 
Alpha Fly three, the Brooks 

283
00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:56,800
Hyperion Max, the Saucony Ride 
17, the Hoka Clifton 9, the A6 

284
00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:03,080
Nova Blast 4, the Vomero 17 from
Nike, the New Balance More V4, 

285
00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:07,920
the Cloud Surfer from on, and 
the A6 Nimbus 26. 

286
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,280
So there's your 10 shoes. 
Take a chance to write them down

287
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,920
and make your own list. 
And as you noticed, we kind of 

288
00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:17,360
have a very wide array of types 
of shoes. 

289
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,800
We didn't do all trainers, we 
didn't do all racing shoes. 

290
00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:22,240
We've got a mix everywhere from 
the Super shoe to the Daily 

291
00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,000
Trainer. 
So let's let's get into it. 

292
00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,400
So let's go from our firmest 
shoe first. 

293
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,640
David, why don't you tell us 
what your pick is on this list 

294
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:36,040
for your firmest shoe? 
All right, so contrary to the 

295
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:42,160
name of the shoe, I'm going to 
go with the Brooks Hyperion Max 

296
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:47,600
as my firmest shoe on the list. 
I I don't find DNA flash to be 

297
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,520
that soft, and there's not a 
whole lot of it. 

298
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:53,280
It's what, 30? 
I don't know, mid 30s in 

299
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,680
comparison to a lot of the other
shoes, And it feels pretty 

300
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,440
grounded. 
There's a pretty decently thick 

301
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,600
outsole on there, and like I 
said, I don't find it to be that

302
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:06,200
soft anyways. 
On the instep it's it's a like a

303
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:09,280
neutral low riding shoe. 
It's not like there's that much 

304
00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,160
under the foot and it's like 
there's still a decent amount of

305
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:14,280
cushion right? 
Like all of the shoes on our 

306
00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:15,800
list have a decent amount of 
cushion. 

307
00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:19,000
Like none of these are like, 
yeah, none of these are below 

308
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:23,320
30mm of stack with a regular Eva
outsole where it's like low to 

309
00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,720
the ground and it's going to be 
firm no matter what. 

310
00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:28,600
Like all of these shoes have a 
certain aspect of foam. 

311
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,560
So by me saying that this is the
firmest shoe on the list, that 

312
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:33,480
does not mean it's the firmest 
shoe on the market. 

313
00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:34,920
Just so that I put that out 
there. 

314
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,520
Yeah, we we made, Yeah, don't 
worry. 

315
00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,800
That's great. 
So David, what I'm going to say 

316
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,960
here too is that is my #10. 
Because I was looking at me like

317
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:44,600
I was. 
Crazy. 

318
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,240
Thank you. 
Yeah. 

319
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:49,200
Here's here's my most firm shoe 
and I I pretty much just agree 

320
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:50,960
with everything you said. 
I don't have much to add, but 

321
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,200
there's not a lot of forgiveness
when you go into it. 

322
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,200
It's a very quick responding 
shoe. 

323
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,120
This is. 
We just have to give the shout 

324
00:15:57,120 --> 00:15:58,760
out for Andrea. 
This is her favorite shoe. 

325
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,800
Last year she has. 
She has bought multiple shoes of

326
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:07,520
this one and she's liking the 
the new Rebellion Flash. 

327
00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:09,040
Version two. 
I like Flash. 

328
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,160
Too so. 
Yeah, apparently that got 

329
00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,520
dethroned. 
So but yeah but this this shoe 

330
00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,840
is is very beloved by one of our
team members and just because 

331
00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:20,720
like we said firm isn't bad. 
But this is definitely the the 

332
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,080
most firm on this list for me. 
Matt, what's your number #10? 

333
00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,880
It's the Hyperion. 
Oh, there we go, right? 

334
00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,680
Yeah, there we go. 
I was just like, oh gosh, David,

335
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:31,640
you and I are going to do the 
same. 

336
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:33,560
We had that exact same answers 
the entire time. 

337
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,320
So I mean, we'll find out. 
Yeah, it is fun to argue, find 

338
00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:39,080
something to argue about 
something. 

339
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,560
I didn't get in a fistfight 
after exactly, so I got to do. 

340
00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:43,880
That's fair. 
Got to get your aggression out. 

341
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:46,640
Somewhere. 
So my thing is, and Brooks, 

342
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,440
typically in the last couple 
years I've noticed like 

343
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,680
especially the flash and a lot 
of the phones have been to me 

344
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:55,800
perceptively and subjectively 
much firmer. 

345
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,800
Like I know a lot of people 
really like the Glycerin series 

346
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,400
and said they were soft. 
I did not find those soft at 

347
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:02,960
all. 
I found them fairly firm for 

348
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:04,720
whatever reason. 
I don't know, but the flash 

349
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,000
certainly tends to be a little 
bit firmer. 

350
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:10,599
So yeah, I would, I definitely 
put that as the firmest shoot. 

351
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,040
Not necessarily a bad thing. 
It was still a great shoe to run

352
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:15,599
in, but definitely the firmest 
of this list. 

353
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:17,720
Great, Matt, why don't you bring
us to #9? 

354
00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:21,800
Yeah, so my #9, let's see if we 
can create some controversy, was

355
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:26,720
actually the Nova Blast Four. 
I did not find that shoe that 

356
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:28,319
soft. 
I found it very different from 

357
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:31,200
the Nova Blast 3, which I found 
to be very, very soft. 

358
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:36,360
I found just, I think a lot of 
it is the geometry where it just

359
00:17:36,360 --> 00:17:39,920
seemed to snap me forward so 
quick that I just found it kind 

360
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,960
of the second firmest of this 
group, which is not bad because 

361
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,480
it was my understanding this is 
meant to be a little bit more up

362
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,120
tempo. 
It's just not as soft as I as 

363
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:53,000
some of the other things on 
here, so see if we create some 

364
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:55,640
controversy with that. 
Yeah, I get the reasoning. 

365
00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:01,040
It's not my pick, but I I 
certainly see the reason my pick

366
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,120
is a little bit of a hot take. 
I think being at #9 here because

367
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:07,360
I think it's a shoe that a lot 
of people put on their feet and 

368
00:18:07,360 --> 00:18:08,880
they're like, wow, this is so 
soft. 

369
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,120
And I think it's one of those 
things that in the marketplace, 

370
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,200
everyone says it's so soft and 
everyone knows it for being high

371
00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,040
stacked and cushioned. 
And it's on the feet of so many 

372
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,440
people in the country. 
And again, this isn't a knock on

373
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,600
the shoe, but I'm sure you know 
where I'm going with this at 

374
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:24,600
this point. 
I've put enough hits it. 

375
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,760
It's the Hookah Clifton 9 and 
it's a Eva midsole. 

376
00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,480
Like, it's a pretty flat doll. 
Like there's, yes, there's a lot

377
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:33,880
of foam under there, but it's 
like what we were talking about 

378
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,280
earlier, just because there's a 
lot of foam doesn't necessarily 

379
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,720
mean it's soft. 
And when we look at a lot of the

380
00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:42,240
shoes on this list, a lot of 
them are using newer generation 

381
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,680
foams that have a little bit 
more compliance, a little bit 

382
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,960
more resilience and you can just
feel a little bit more play in 

383
00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:49,920
the foam. 
And I feel like you don't feel 

384
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,800
that as much in the Clifton and 
for a good reason. 

385
00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,640
That might be why it does so 
well standing for so many 

386
00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,280
people, you know, like it kind 
of holds its structure. 

387
00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,760
So I'm not here to say that it's
again not a soft shoe, but it I 

388
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:07,360
think contrary to the public 
opinion, I don't perceive this 

389
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,880
as like one of the softer shoes 
in the market. 

390
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,200
I think there's a lot of other 
things out there that are 

391
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:16,600
softer, and so for my pick is 
the hookah Clifton 9. 

392
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,880
Well, mine is Clifton Nine too. 
David, you and me, we're, we're 

393
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:25,000
on lockstep right now. 
I totally agree with you. 

394
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,680
I think from the version 8 to 
version nine, there was a change

395
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,920
in the foam, but it made it more
responsive and bouncy, not so 

396
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:34,160
much softer. 
I think like you said, public 

397
00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:36,560
eye Clifton is like, Oh my 
goodness, I've never felt 

398
00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,120
something more soft in my life. 
The Bondi has talked about that 

399
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:41,320
way too. 
But it's a pretty darn firm shoe

400
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,000
and so I I'm totally on board 
with you there. 

401
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,680
I love the amount of, like, 
softness in this shoe. 

402
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,280
This was one of my favorite 
trainers of last year. 

403
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,120
I I would put a lot of long runs
in and it was bouncy and firm 

404
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,680
enough to pick up the pace. 
So I loved its versatility. 

405
00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,360
Well, it still really felt 
really protective and cushioned,

406
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,160
but it didn't have that 
mushiness or like a lot of. 

407
00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:05,520
Spring and displacement that you
would feel. 

408
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,320
So I agree with you David, it's 
it's on the firmer side of this 

409
00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,880
list. 
Can I take this for a second to 

410
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,960
address something I think is 
really important? 

411
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,240
Because I've been thinking about
that, that a lot of people will 

412
00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,080
come to this entire list of 
shoes. 

413
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:21,560
I can guarantee if you take the 
average person off the street 

414
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,160
that doesn't run, if you put 
them in any one of these shoes, 

415
00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,400
I almost guarantee you they're 
going to say the exact same 

416
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,320
thing. 
This is the softest shoe I've 

417
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:33,800
ever felt because to be honest 
with you, my #8 is the Clifton 

418
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,560
9. 
Because I found the same. 

419
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,600
I found the same thing where it,
you know, everybody says it's 

420
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,560
soft. 
Version 9 to me was on the 

421
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,040
firmer end for how even though 
yeah, it's a lot, it's there's a

422
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:45,720
lot of foam. 
But I have to think that we 

423
00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,400
remember that a lot of people 
getting into running will 

424
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,240
certainly perceive these as as 
soft because relative to what 

425
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,920
they've been walking in, like if
you're walking in a pair of vans

426
00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:56,480
and that's what you know. 
And then you. 

427
00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:57,920
Step into a Clifton, I was 
thinking. 

428
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,000
Yes, a lot of these people. 
Are going from vans. 

429
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,520
Right, right. 
So we are, we are coming from a 

430
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:04,920
van. 
I mean, Van's not the only 

431
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,240
issue, but we're coming just 
knowing of the whole list. 

432
00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:11,040
Yes, running the. 
Two companies and Vans and the 

433
00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,040
On Cloud Act. 
I'll give mine then for 8:00. 

434
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,960
So this is a shoe that got a 
pretty significant update from 

435
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:19,400
last year because they went to a
whole new midsole for the the 

436
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,760
company's use of it and that is 
the Ride 17. 

437
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,120
They put Power Run Plus in this 
shoe. 

438
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,800
I would say the rides of old 
were would be even firmer than 

439
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,320
this one. 
This is definitely a little bit 

440
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:35,120
softer but it still runs. 
I think Power Run plus even with

441
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:39,360
the the Triumph has always been 
on that firmer responsive side 

442
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,600
not that soft squishy side of 
things. 

443
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:45,400
So for me it's the ride, it's I 
think that the flexibility also 

444
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,080
makes it feel a little bit 
softer, but it's it's a little 

445
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:53,360
bit still not mushy, soft or 
having a a big amount of 

446
00:21:53,360 --> 00:21:55,120
compliance. 
So that's that's my #8. 

447
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,400
I guess that leaves me, yeah. 
It's your. 

448
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,480
Turn Yeah, my #8's going to be 
the Saucony Ride 17. 

449
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,080
So looking at the Saucony Ride 
17, I agree. 

450
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,680
So the rides of the pass were 
definitely on the firm side but 

451
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,080
and they did put the power and 
plus in that did make it softer.

452
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:18,480
But again this is this isn't 
that Max stack height shoe by 

453
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,640
today's standards. 
Right now, it's sitting at about

454
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,080
35, so there's just less of it. 
There's a little bit more 

455
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:26,400
outsole coverage than in 
previous rides, too. 

456
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,200
So that also kind of firms it up
a tad. 

457
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:31,560
And so yes, it is softer than 
previous rides. 

458
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,400
Yes, the Power and Plus is 
decently soft, but there's less 

459
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,160
of it. 
There's more outsole coverage. 

460
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,360
And I just feel like it's just 
on the firmer side there. 

461
00:22:40,360 --> 00:22:42,400
And that's not a bad thing. 
I actually really like the shoe,

462
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:46,880
but I just yeah, it feels like 
it's on the firmer side of this 

463
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:49,800
list as far as that's concerned.
David, do you want to bring us 

464
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:50,440
to the next? 
One, yeah. 

465
00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:54,000
My next one is where I think 
things start getting a little 

466
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,560
bit juicy, right, 'cause we 
start getting towards that top 

467
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,320
five there. 
Now this one I actually 

468
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,080
flip-flopped my choice once or 
twice. 

469
00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,360
So I'm trying to make sure 
looking at my arrows here, I got

470
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:12,360
it correct, but I think I'm 
going to go with it and that's 

471
00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:19,960
going to be the Novoblast 4 and 
so Nova Blast for it's a, it's a

472
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,880
mix of things because it 
originally when I first wrote my

473
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:29,520
list, it was actually a spot or 
two up in the softness area and 

474
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,720
it's because of the different 
things I'm looking at. 

475
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,200
And when I look at what Matt was
saying earlier, which I agree 

476
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,440
with, it kind of pitches you 
forward quick and the 

477
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,200
compliance, it's not really 
there. 

478
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,320
I will say, however, if you sit 
there or stand there and you 

479
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,160
just kind of press your heels 
into the ground or just your 

480
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,880
forefoot into the ground, 
there's quite a bit of 

481
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,520
compliance and it feels softer 
than some of these other shoes. 

482
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,400
But once you start moving that, 
that story changes a little bit.

483
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:01,680
And so even though I kind of 
initially had my brain thinking 

484
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,640
like, OK, this is on the softer 
end and I mean, how much stack 

485
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:06,680
is there? 
That's 42 something like that. 

486
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,000
It's about it's above the the 
40. 

487
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:10,560
Yeah, so like. 
Even with the. 

488
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,760
Even though there's that much, I
mean it's still still rides on 

489
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:16,880
that firmer side for how much 
there is. 

490
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,080
And so that's another great 
example of like just because 

491
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,720
there's a lot of it doesn't mean
it's going to be marshmallow 

492
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,960
soft and I'm actually happy it 
isn't. 

493
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,080
I like this version better than 
the three and. 

494
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:28,480
I. 
Would agree. 

495
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:33,240
I actually the A6 move to that. 
Having that ECO line was big for

496
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,520
me because I actually thought 
their phones were a little too 

497
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,000
soft, so it actually made it 
better for me. 

498
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,400
I will. 
I will say that they'll also 

499
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,120
that they did improve the 
stability in the heel, I think a

500
00:24:43,120 --> 00:24:45,240
little bit because of that 
firmness where the first couple 

501
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,920
versions were had. 
Some one and two, one and two 

502
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,200
especially, they were really, 
they were really white. 

503
00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:52,800
Irritated my Achilles. 
I think in each one. 

504
00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:54,440
Oh man, you're. 
Kidding me? 

505
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,480
We are. 
No, I got Novoblast 4 on there 

506
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,560
too, which Novoblast 3 was my 
favorite trainer when the year 

507
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,200
it came out. 
And I've talked about this with 

508
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:06,800
the Novoblast before with their 
design in the forefoot where 

509
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,160
they have the cutouts and kind 
of that bulgy middle. 

510
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:12,320
If in my mind it feels super 
cushioned, like when you run and

511
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:14,520
you feel it, it's cushioned in 
the forefoot, but I wouldn't 

512
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,000
describe it as soft. 
There's some kind of difference 

513
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,520
in there where again, it gives 
you that kind of like protective

514
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,520
feel, but it's not mushy, soft 
and it's not this kind of 

515
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,160
trampoline either. 
And I agree with you, when they 

516
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,680
move to this eco versions, it 
firm things up a little bit and 

517
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,360
and so you could definitely feel
that there. 

518
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,440
I do think this is an overall 
soft shoe, but in the list I 

519
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,760
think there's other ones that 
are that are softer definitely. 

520
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,160
But I'm with you, David. 
I wonder if that's an area of of

521
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,320
issue in the global population. 
People are using the incorrect 

522
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,680
words. 
Like we've talked about how 

523
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,440
people use the phrase support in
the past and they were actually 

524
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,960
talking about cushioning. 
I'm wondering if people are 

525
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:54,080
using soft and what they're 
really meaning is just there's a

526
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,640
lot of stuff under foot and it's
they're not even understanding 

527
00:25:57,640 --> 00:26:01,040
like the compliance and things 
like that, but just a thought 

528
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,360
we'd just standardize that. 
Oh, is it my turn? 

529
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,120
It is the Ride 17. 
So found something similar. 

530
00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:12,480
I think the Power Run Plus 
Edition definitely made this 

531
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,800
shoe soften up. 
It is very, in my mind also very

532
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,800
responsive to. 
I've done plenty of workouts and

533
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,960
I think I agree with David that 
the outsole design also adds to 

534
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:24,960
a little bit of that firmness. 
But I do think it's softer than 

535
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,360
the Clifton 9, Novoblast 4 and 
certainly the Hyperion Max. 

536
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:32,040
So it goes on my whatever number
we're on. 

537
00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,600
Man, I'm out here looking for 
drama. 

538
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,440
We ain't getting none of it. 
Dude, that's exactly what 

539
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,760
happened last time. 
I'll, I'll go next, then I'll 

540
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:42,400
bring us in for number six. 
Let me. 

541
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:44,720
Redo mine and I'll just create 
differences just to create 

542
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:46,840
arguments. 
I like this I I think. 

543
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,120
It's fly 3 firmest shoe of the 
group No, just. 

544
00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:50,840
Kidding. 
It's also validated a little bit

545
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,160
here, maybe for some of our 
perception. 

546
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:58,240
Interesting, but my my next one.
Rounding out the lower half or 

547
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,320
the firmer half, here is another
ASIC shoe. 

548
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,480
It's the Nimbus 26 if this would
have been and so this again they

549
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:09,800
moved to the flight foam blast 
plus eco for this shoe. 

550
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:14,920
The 25 was a mushy shoe. 
I had a hard time taking that 

551
00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,960
shoe on long runs because my my 
feet would be sore just from how

552
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:20,960
much they had to stabilize. 
It did not work for me. 

553
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,800
This one has been much firmer. 
Much firmer might be too strong 

554
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,360
a word, but it's definitely 
firmer and more balanced. 

555
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:30,640
Yeah, it's it's a little bit 
more stable. 

556
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,800
It's always had the wide base 
for stability, but with how soft

557
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,240
and just wobbly it was for my 
foot, I didn't, I didn't enjoy 

558
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,240
that so much. 
So there's way less sinkage in 

559
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,000
this shoe and they firmed it up,
I think to a a happy place where

560
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,760
you still get a lot of that 
protective feel. 

561
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,720
It's even a little bit more 
rigid in the forefoot. 

562
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,960
So you propel forward through 
that rocker, not propel in a 

563
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,720
fast way, but just kind of 
translate forward well over the 

564
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,320
four foot rocker. 
So I I've been a big fan of what

565
00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,520
changes they made for the 
firmness of this shoe. 

566
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,720
So my number six is the Nimbus 
26. 

567
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:08,040
What about you, Matt? 
So my number six is actually the

568
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,920
exact same thing. 
It's the Nova, definitely the 

569
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,320
Nimbus 26 where I think a lot of
people even to be honest with 

570
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:19,440
you. 25 I didn't find as like 
super mushy as people described 

571
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,720
it. 
And I will agree that the 26 is 

572
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,320
a little bit firmer. 
And again it's one of the great 

573
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,520
for me personally how I perceive
this is really kind of middle 

574
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:32,520
it's there's a ton of foam under
foot protective is definitely 

575
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,480
how I would say this nice and 
rocker definitely how described 

576
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:39,320
the stiff definitely but not the
softest shoe out there. 

577
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:40,880
It's fairly kind of middle for 
me where. 

578
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,520
So I put it here for that 
softness, which I actually enjoy

579
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,240
because I don't typically like 
mushy shoes. 

580
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,760
That's probably why I've gotten 
a good number of miles on these 

581
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,800
just because I've liked that. 
So yeah, I'm totally in 

582
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,080
agreement. 
Yeah, So I'm not gonna pick the 

583
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,040
Nimbus. 
I'm gonna. 

584
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,800
Pick our first time not being 
the same. 

585
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,640
Yeah, and I feel like this is 
kind of a little bit of an 

586
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:07,280
oddball one, but I'm gonna say 
the Cloud Surfer instep soft 

587
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:11,040
ride soft a lot. 
There's a lot of give to kind of

588
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,320
the gaps in the midsole here. 
Now. 

589
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,080
They use helium foam, right? 
Or well, cloud tech phase. 

590
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:22,920
Yeah, it's a soft shoe and 
there's no plate in this one. 

591
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,840
You know, like they have the 
speed board in almost every 

592
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:30,240
shoe, but not in this one. 
But there's also a little bit 

593
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,160
less foam and it does compress a
little bit dynamically. 

594
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,280
And I do feel like that ride 
does kind of bottom out a little

595
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:37,520
bit. 
And at the end of the day, it 

596
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,800
does kind of have that Eva Riot 
like feel to it a little bit 

597
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,440
where it's it's that's initial 
soft. 

598
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,800
But at the end of the day, if 
I'm looking at a bunch of shoes 

599
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,320
and I just ran 10 miles on each 
one, I don't know if I'd be 

600
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,480
picking this one as the softest 
shoe at the end of those 10 

601
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,400
miles. 
And so that that's kind of where

602
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,240
my reasoning comes through on 
that one. 

603
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,520
But initial step in is soft. 
I will definitely agree with 

604
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,400
that. 
And I I also look a little bit 

605
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,640
like how much is my intrinsic 
foot muscles working a little 

606
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,960
bit. 
There's some other shoes that 

607
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:10,080
are working a little bit. 
More stable? 

608
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,400
Yeah, not the most stable. 
Well, I'll start us off for our 

609
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,880
#5. 
So we're into the top half here.

610
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:22,160
My pick here is the Vomero 17. 
This is a shoe that has a dual 

611
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:25,280
density midsole. 
You have more of an Eva kind of 

612
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:27,520
on the bottom and then you have 
Zoomax on the top. 

613
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,520
It's an interesting shoe in that
way. 

614
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,960
But from we talked about step in
feel, you can really feel the 

615
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,160
softness of the Zoom X of this 
blend of it when you step into 

616
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:39,600
the Vimero. 
That's what for me brings us to 

617
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,400
the softer category. 
Otherwise it would probably be 

618
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,560
further up the list in terms of 
firmness. 

619
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:49,840
But that that Zoom X on the top 
does a big job of creating a 

620
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,600
soft feel here, and it's Zoom X.
So it also has that bounce back.

621
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,560
So I've talked about this before
and I think I've already 

622
00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,320
mentioned it today. 
But for me, there's a difference

623
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,680
between mushy soft where you're 
like feet kind of sink into it 

624
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,440
in different spots, and then 
there's like trampoline soft 

625
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,360
where the whole midsole deforms 
together. 

626
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,520
And I think that, you know, this
form of Zoom X is a little more 

627
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,320
of the everything kind of 
compresses together in the heel,

628
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,000
but in the forefoot you can kind
of sink into your toes a little 

629
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:19,600
bit. 
So yeah, definitely on the 

630
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,000
softer end, but since it's not 
full length, you still get that 

631
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,040
firmer bottom. 
And just like you talked about 

632
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,520
David, with the Cloud Surfer, I 
feel like I bottom out the Zoom 

633
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,520
X, especially when I pick up the
pace. 

634
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,960
Not bottom out in a bad way, but
I just use it all and that's why

635
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,200
it's not even more on on the 
softer side of my list. 

636
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,400
So vomero 17 for me. 
Random question. 

637
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:42,880
If we did this as a walking shoe
review, do you think you'd have 

638
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,800
the same answers? 
That one might be softer, I 

639
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,800
think for that reason. 
Just makes me wonder, yeah. 

640
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,440
Take the surfer. 
Yeah, when you put a foam like 

641
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,920
and it's on as a top layer, 
you're going to hit that first. 

642
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,720
So again that's that's going to 
be your perception. 

643
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,280
If you're loading the shoe more 
and you're moving through that, 

644
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,360
you know that's also the reason 
I wonder, you know people 

645
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,440
sometimes will refer to the 
cloud like the on shoes as 

646
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,400
really, really soft. 
I found the cloud server pretty 

647
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:12,160
soft, but I wonder if it's 
because when you're walking in 

648
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,200
it, it does feel relatively soft
because you're just not, you're 

649
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,520
not loading and bottoming out 
the shoe as much. 

650
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,240
Just a thought. 
I have no idea who's next. 

651
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:23,560
It could be you or David. 
Why don't you keep David? 

652
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,720
You go. 
First, OK, to to rock the boat 

653
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,760
and go completely off the rails 
within a pick or two. 

654
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,520
I'm going to go with the Nimbus 
26 because we're all in 

655
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,440
agreement tonight, right? 
Apparently. 

656
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:42,480
So yeah, it's a lot of foam. 
It is soft. 

657
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,640
It's not like it isn't, but it 
just like it just holds its 

658
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,680
structure really well. 
And I don't know if some of 

659
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,120
that's the eco materials in it, 
but it just doesn't quite like 

660
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:55,720
that mushy soft you're talking 
about doesn't really have that. 

661
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:58,200
That Trampolini soft has a 
little bit of it, but not a 

662
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,720
whole lot of it either. 
Like it just it's very 

663
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,080
protective I think is what you 
said, Klein and I agree with 

664
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:05,840
that. 
It's like it doesn't not feel 

665
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,040
protective. 
It feels very protective, but it

666
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,840
just doesn't. 
Definitely, yeah, it definitely 

667
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:12,800
Max cushion category. 
Like, there's no question about 

668
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,280
it, but it just doesn't quite 
feel soft, you know, and like 

669
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,160
it, but but it does feel softer 
than the other ones because 

670
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,760
like, yes, there are some 
softness elements to the foam 

671
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,000
and there's a lot of it. 
So by default, like it's going 

672
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,200
to compress a little bit more 
and you're going to notice it. 

673
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,000
So it kind of goes up the list 
there for that reason. 

674
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,680
But yeah, for whatever reason, I
I don't know. 

675
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,600
But I'm happy it's firmer 
because the Nimbus 25, like you 

676
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,440
said, I I couldn't run in that 
shoe. 

677
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,040
I know a lot of people loved it,
but I just couldn't do it. 

678
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,280
And the 26 for me is like so 
much better. 

679
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,600
I don't know why. 
We I believe these are sometimes

680
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,720
public eye but we all we often 
get from companies their take on

681
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,680
how soft shoes are compared to 
the competition and what they do

682
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,640
is they create a like a cross 
matrix where one way it's it's 

683
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,120
firm to soft and then up and 
down it would be responsive to 

684
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,679
well I forget the opposite of 
what they define as responsive 

685
00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,840
and something else And so we're 
we're kind of dancing around 

686
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,239
that concept too where it's not 
just firm to soft there's so 

687
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,679
many and I would say there's 
more than just you know firm 

688
00:34:17,679 --> 00:34:19,679
soft and responsive to non 
responsive. 

689
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,159
You also have these other matrix
that that all play into it. 

690
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:25,199
So, all right, Matt, what's 
yours? 

691
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:33,080
What's your #5 Mara 17? 
So I like exactly what Nathan 

692
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,719
said and actually you know also 
talking a little bit what what 

693
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,080
David said as well, where I 
found Zoom X was really nice 

694
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:42,440
under foot and it and it created
a nice cushion ride, but it 

695
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,120
wasn't the soft disk. 
It's definitely to me felt soft 

696
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,440
on the other ones and I think 
it's because using that foam 

697
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:49,880
right under foot and it was 
really nice. 

698
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:52,639
But I actually appreciated this 
shoe not being mushy, and I've 

699
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:55,840
got almost 100 miles on these 
because it's not mushy because I

700
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,520
really like the way it it has 
broken in the fact that there's 

701
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,280
really nice side walls in the 
rear foot that that for me 

702
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,600
create just enough guidance for 
this to still be neutrable for 

703
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,920
me to still want to use it. 
So yeah, it's not mushy, it's 

704
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,040
just kind of right in the middle
at #5 for me, so. 

705
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,840
I think this brings up a point 
really quick too about type of 

706
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:20,200
foam and amount of softness. 
So the Invincible is a shoe with

707
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,400
full length P backs and no plate
but the type of of zoom X and 

708
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,920
which is a PIBA based foam or P 
backs based. 

709
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,880
They they use a different 
compound than they do in their 

710
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,600
racing shoes And so it has a 
little bit different flavor, a 

711
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:37,240
little bit different firmness 
and just because something's P 

712
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,040
backs doesn't mean it's going to
feel super soft. 

713
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,320
The same would be true for the 
Tracksmith Elliott runner. 

714
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:44,960
I have a couple pair of those 
and that's AI would put that 

715
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:49,040
probably tied with the Hyperion 
Max for you know how soft it 

716
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,920
feels because it's a pretty firm
shoe even though it's AP backed 

717
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,480
base shoe. 
So just because something's P 

718
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,600
backs versus Eva, which is the 
type of polymer that makes it 

719
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,400
up, doesn't mean it's going to 
be softer. 

720
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:02,000
I I will say I will say really 
quick in terms of flavoring, I 

721
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,600
have tried eating the 
invincible. 

722
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:06,720
It does not taste good. 
Did you, like, take a grader to 

723
00:36:06,720 --> 00:36:07,880
it and put it? 
Over. 

724
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:09,880
No, no, no. 
Just just. 

725
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,440
It's better, it's better as a 
garnish. 

726
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:12,320
I just. 
Licked it? 

727
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,560
Yeah, all right. 
I mean, garnish foams can have 

728
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,400
smells. 
And a thing that could have 

729
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,200
smells. 
They can have tastes, too. 

730
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,080
I mean, I don't know. 
I'm not. 

731
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,360
I'm not here to judge. 
You know, my team just lost so. 

732
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,000
OK, random random off topic. 
Does anybody everybody knows 

733
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:27,800
like the new shoe smell? 
Right. 

734
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,800
Like it's like sometimes it's 
really good was I found with 

735
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,600
some of the the Super foams that
the noose, noose, shoe smell is 

736
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:36,560
like. 
Very. 

737
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,480
Yeah, it's like kind of like. 
Whoa. 

738
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:40,840
It's, like almost too much. 
It's. 

739
00:36:41,240 --> 00:36:44,920
Almost like Sulfurous, anyway. 
Yeah, it's bad. 

740
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:47,440
Yeah. 
All right, David, bring us into 

741
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:51,040
#4. 
Coming in at #4, I think we are 

742
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:56,280
going to have our first oh, I 
guess we only have looking at 

743
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,720
the list here. 
No, we should only have four 

744
00:36:59,720 --> 00:37:00,600
more. 
There's five more shoes. 

745
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,920
There's five more shoes 5. 
More. 

746
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:04,520
Yeah. 
Well, no, I haven't got four 

747
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:06,880
more shoes his from Arrow yet. 
4. 

748
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,240
Three. 
Yeah, we have four more to pick 

749
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,160
4. 
More to pick? 

750
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,120
Yeah. 
Four more to pick. 

751
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,320
Yeah, four more to pick, but 
there's five available to pick 

752
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,080
because I'm keeping notes. 
If you see me looking away, it's

753
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,640
'cause I'm taking notes and I'm 
creating a a catalytic. 

754
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,000
They just didn't want to look. 
At me. 

755
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,320
But David, what? 
What's? 

756
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,200
What's your #4? 
Yeah, no, #4 is going to be the 

757
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,720
alpha flight and X percent 3 for
me. 

758
00:37:25,720 --> 00:37:32,480
So Zumax soft plate, not soft, 
airbag not soft. 

759
00:37:33,240 --> 00:37:35,160
So there's a lot of softness 
underneath it. 

760
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,920
You get a lot of trampolini, you
get you, you feel all of that. 

761
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,560
This shoes very responsive and 
you're seeing it on the feet of 

762
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,200
a lot of people for good reason.
It is a Max stack marathon 

763
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,280
racing shoe and it does use P 
backs. 

764
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,120
It does use a, you know, 
arguably the softest thing they 

765
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,840
have at their disposal, but the 
other components, including the 

766
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,400
outsole and some of their stuff,
it does firm that experience up.

767
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,400
And so even though it's a very 
cushioned ride, I do feel like 

768
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:04,960
there's aspects of firmness that
do show themselves. 

769
00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,400
And so it's not #1 on the list, 
you know, because of that. 

770
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:10,400
Or #2 even. 
Or three. 

771
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:15,640
It's #4. 
And you know, I agree with you 

772
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,320
so much. 
That is also my #4 on my list. 

773
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:25,360
It's yeah it it is the epitome 
of kind of that entire shoe has 

774
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,880
to compress together partially 
because of the plate being close

775
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:29,680
to your foot as you mentioned 
before Matt. 

776
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:31,920
So when you push down on the 
right side of the plate, the 

777
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,560
left side is going to deform 
down with it. 

778
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,560
So it just that stiffness front 
to back just really moves you 

779
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,680
quickly over it. 
And I think that this type of 

780
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,240
foam is so velocity dependent 
that it doesn't just feel mushy 

781
00:38:43,240 --> 00:38:45,000
and soft. 
It's it's definitely soft. 

782
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,160
And if you stand on it like you 
mentioned for that other shoe, 

783
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:50,520
David, if you rock back and 
forth on it doggy, that thing 

784
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,080
can move. 
But it is. 

785
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,320
I I would agree with you, it's a
soft shoe and it feels really 

786
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,320
soft, but there are other things
that feel softer to me. 

787
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:01,960
Don't tell me. 
Don't do it. 

788
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,160
He's going to do it. 
He's got a He's got a face. 

789
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:09,120
Oh man, oh. 
Man, there it is. 

790
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,720
Yeah, so my number four was 
exactly the same thing and I 

791
00:39:11,720 --> 00:39:15,000
think over the compared to 
previous alpha flies, I did find

792
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:16,720
it. 
The vest you're wearing, is that

793
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:21,320
is that an AP for alpha fly? 
I'm just curious for AP. 

794
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,480
I'm joking, sorry. 
Those who passed their 

795
00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,800
comprehensives in the PhD get 
the this cool vest which I'm 

796
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:28,560
wrapping. 
There you go. 

797
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:32,360
Doctor Karam over at APU for 
getting this for me. 

798
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:39,440
But yeah, I I I feel the same 
way as you 2 where it is an 

799
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:42,760
incredibly bouncy shoe. 
But the way this is set up, 

800
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,720
especially with the air pods, 
the forefoot's on the firmer end

801
00:39:45,720 --> 00:39:48,320
for sure. 
So the heel is death a little 

802
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,320
softer, so I feel myself getting
up on my toes. 

803
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,080
But again, it's the whole 
package together. 

804
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,160
This is not your soft, mushy 
shoe. 

805
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,680
This is your very resilient 
shoe. 

806
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,240
You're going to load it and it's
going to pop you back up. 

807
00:40:00,240 --> 00:40:04,080
So it's not what I would say. 
Is saw there's softer shoes on 

808
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,600
this list, but don't let that be
a knock against it. 

809
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:12,280
It is still, I think, if not the
one of the most aggressive 

810
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:18,040
missoles on the market for sure.
So just not necessarily soft. 

811
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,320
Softest isn't necessarily the 
word I would use. 

812
00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:25,400
All right, we're in our top 
three now and I can I can lead 

813
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,880
us off here. 
So this next one for me is one 

814
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,080
of those where the foam is 
really soft but the elements add

815
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,080
a little bit of stiffness. 
But I would call this a very 

816
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,720
soft shoe. 
We got the New Balance SC 

817
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:41,400
Trainer V2. 
The again I think fuel cell is a

818
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,280
really soft foam and it's really
soft in this shoe too. 

819
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,200
I'm glad they gave this one a 
plate. 

820
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:52,160
I, I, I kind of harping on a lot
of companies that meaninglessly,

821
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:57,280
meaninglessly that's not the 
word they put in a they they put

822
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,040
in a a plate for the heck of it.
And there's no purpose. 

823
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,760
It's meaningless. 
Meaninglessly, that's this is 

824
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,440
harm. 
It's just meaningless. 

825
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,120
This one has a plate that 
stabilizes a foam that allows 

826
00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:12,280
you to train in it. 
This is a shoe that when I was 

827
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,320
going through my footstuff that 
besides the toe spring in the 

828
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,400
front, it worked really well. 
Because of how soft the foam is,

829
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,440
it decreased some of the acute 
pressure on the bottom of my 

830
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,840
foot, so I really liked that 
softness there. 

831
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,480
But again, just because there 
was too much toe spring it 

832
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,440
didn't. 
If you can I I recorded a solo 

833
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,080
episode about my specific 
injury. 

834
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:35,440
But yeah super soft shoe plate 
firms it up just a touch but not

835
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,880
that much like you're still 
going to if you like soft shoes.

836
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:39,840
If you want one that runs a 
little bit faster, I think this 

837
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,120
is a great option but also works
really well for daily training. 

838
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,720
Like I think that if this one 
and this one was also a little 

839
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:49,000
bit small for me fit wise, if 
this shoe fit me better and 

840
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,320
didn't have as much toe spring, 
it would be as versatile for me 

841
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,200
as like the Speed 3 from 
Saucony. 

842
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,400
I I had the the same experience 
where foam very soft, actually 

843
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:04,920
soft enough to me that I had a 
it's been a little bit limiting 

844
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,920
where I haven't really been able
to do long runs in it. 

845
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,120
I know it. 
I'm sure it works great for long

846
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:12,080
runs for a lot of people. 
For me it's just not stable 

847
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,960
enough because the foam is so 
soft for that. 

848
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,760
But I can still appreciate a 
shoe that's very soft and you 

849
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,840
can run fast and like more than 
half the runs I did in this were

850
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,600
workouts and it felt better as I
ran faster. 

851
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:25,840
But definitely since it's meant 
as a training model that fuel 

852
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,400
cell foam is very soft. 
I mean it's the same thing. 

853
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,840
I think we said the SC Elite not
to be the SCLE 3, not to be 

854
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,040
negative about. 
It was like the least super, 

855
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,800
well, not the least, but it was 
kind of the most friendliest of 

856
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,200
the Super shoes because the foam
didn't necessarily feel super 

857
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,640
aggressively bouncy, just felt 
really soft and and protective 

858
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,040
and and compliant. 
So I think it's kind of the same

859
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,520
thing here in a little bit more 
trainer version that's we're 

860
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:51,840
truly meant for training with 
that plate design and foam. 

861
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,840
But yeah, I I definitely agree 
that it's on the top three for 

862
00:42:55,840 --> 00:42:58,640
softest shoes. 
What you got, David? 

863
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,920
All right, let's move forward. 
SC Trainer V2, Yeah. 

864
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,960
I I this is, this is going 
nowhere. 

865
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:06,440
I want drama. 
Give me drama. 

866
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,120
I don't. 
Know at least we know we've got 

867
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,400
differences in views on the 
cloud surfer, so hopefully we'll

868
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,200
have some yeah. 
Yeah, yeah, it's the SC Trainer 

869
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:18,280
V2 for all the same reasons they
said. 

870
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:19,440
All right. 
Moving forward. 

871
00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:22,680
All right. 
David, why don't you bring us? 

872
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,400
What's your number? 
#2 is going to be something that

873
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:27,560
you guys keep wanting me to 
bring up, but I haven't brought 

874
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,120
up yet. 
So that's going to be the Nike 

875
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,840
Bomero 17. 
Now when we take a look at 

876
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,880
softness subjectively, we do 
have something. 

877
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,640
I mean, I don't think we do 
because everything you said 

878
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,400
checks out for me except for one
thing, the step in soft. 

879
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,120
You know, you have this kind of 
compliance where you it's 

880
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,800
noticeable in the instep and 
it's noticeable dynamically. 

881
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,080
You have this kind of soft, 
mushy, but also this bounciness 

882
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,160
to it where you can tell that 
there's responsiveness. 

883
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,160
Where we disagree is where you 
guys said it kind of bottomed 

884
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,040
out a little bit. 
It doesn't bottom out for me. 

885
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,520
I've taken this thing for 20 
plus mile runs and it's felt 

886
00:44:00,720 --> 00:44:04,920
just fine. 
So that softness is maintained 

887
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,120
over length and I don't know if 
that's my dynamics like how I 

888
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:09,720
move. 
I don't know if it's how I'm 

889
00:44:09,720 --> 00:44:12,040
loading the ground, what I'm 
running on. 

890
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,400
But for me it doesn't really 
bottom out and I have over 100 

891
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,520
miles on mine and it's still 
soft. 

892
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,880
So do. 
It under mile review. 

893
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,080
Yeah, yeah, I should do that. 
I I'm still focused on catching 

894
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:24,680
up on all the other writing I 
got to do. 

895
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,080
I I would I would agree with 
you. 

896
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,000
Bottom out isn't the right term 
I would use. 

897
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,000
I think I just go through the 
zoom X enough. 

898
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,480
That's what I felt like. 
Yeah, it's not. 

899
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:36,280
It's not wrong. 
It's your experience. 

900
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,200
But you know and but. 
To be fair, I've also taken it 

901
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,320
on some of my longest runs and I
totally agree it does phenomenal

902
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,120
for that. 
I think it's just interesting. 

903
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,960
I'm glad we disagree on the the 
perception of softness, though, 

904
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:49,080
'cause we have. 
Some I I don't. 

905
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,880
I don't know. 
If we do, though, I feel like 

906
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,800
our perception is exactly the 
same. 

907
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:54,440
Our experience was a little bit 
different. 

908
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,760
Yeah, I think maybe it's one of 
those maybe. 

909
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,280
I mean if we watch Matt's 
mechanics, there's a good chance

910
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:05,520
that he's putting like a a 
higher total degree of loading 

911
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:09,600
through the shoe at certain 
points and than than you do, 

912
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,160
David. 
Same with me, I think that 

913
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,000
we're, Matt and I are probably 
more similar in our mechanics in

914
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:17,000
some ways than you and I and 
maybe it's not all mechanics, 

915
00:45:17,240 --> 00:45:21,880
but yeah, I think it's possible 
that maybe we use up the foam 

916
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,000
and and you don't. 
And there's no plate, so it's, 

917
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,600
you know, you feel all of it. 
So that's why that's also like 

918
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:29,320
above. 
Things like the alpha fly for 

919
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,400
example, because of the 
components around it, yeah. 

920
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,960
And maybe too, you know where 
you know how much of our foot is

921
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:38,720
contacting at a time. 
You know if I'm, I might run a 

922
00:45:38,720 --> 00:45:41,520
little bit more lateral on some 
places and put higher pressures 

923
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,520
to smaller areas, whereas I 
don't know who. 

924
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:44,520
Depends. 
It depends. 

925
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,040
But cool, Matt, what's yours? 
Yeah. 

926
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:54,800
So I'm the cloud Surfer is my #2
and it was this is the first 

927
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:59,960
actually soft on shoe that I 
felt and it is still I think the

928
00:45:59,960 --> 00:46:02,560
softest one I have. 
What is it? 

929
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:08,240
The on cloud. 
Oh my gosh not the echo. 

930
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,720
Why am I? 
I am. 

931
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,080
I'm sorry everyone I'm blanking.
I've. 

932
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:18,040
Got a set of the. 
Not the monster. 

933
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:23,400
On Swift, yes on the Eclipse. 
So I actually found the eclipse 

934
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,400
like it's well well cushioned. 
But it is it is firmer to me 

935
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,880
than the cloud Surfer. 
I found the Cloud Surfer very 

936
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,280
soft, but I also found it soft 
in a responsive way where I 

937
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,520
again another shoot I did a good
number of workouts in because it

938
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:40,800
it's it's a little it's got some
snap to it which was great, but 

939
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,800
it's also not stable for me 
because of the slightly narrow 

940
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,360
platform and that softness where
I can't really take it for 

941
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:50,800
longer efforts. 
But it is, in my perception, the

942
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:56,520
second soft issue of this list. 
Yeah, mine is also the Cloud 

943
00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:58,960
Surfer. 
So this both rounds out our 

944
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,240
number two each of our number 
one. 

945
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:04,400
Swap our Romero and Surfer 
picks. 

946
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:08,160
Yeah, pretty much, pretty much 
almost. 

947
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,240
It's one off. 
But I think what's what's 

948
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:13,840
interesting about this reality 
for Matt and I is Matt and I 

949
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:17,400
talked about bottoming out the 
Zoom X, feeling that kind of 

950
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,280
perception in the Vimero, but we
didn't feel like we bottomed out

951
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:24,960
this shoe, which David did. 
And so I think that's a really 

952
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,080
interesting experience, 
experiential difference. 

953
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:32,640
I do think part of that could be
the rocker design on this shoe 

954
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,440
and the amount of beveling there
is in the heel. 

955
00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:36,320
It might help us transition a 
little bit better. 

956
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,440
But I found this to be step in. 
As you said, David is wicked 

957
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:43,480
soft in this shoe and just 
standing and walking around 

958
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:46,720
around. 
I I would say thankfully as I 

959
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:49,400
start running, it just kind of 
gets a little bit rhythmic and 

960
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,440
and does firm up a little bit on
the run. 

961
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:55,800
So I agree with you there and I 
don't have enough miles on this 

962
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:59,360
to talk about how would it hold 
up to 300 miles or 400 miles, 

963
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,560
which I do think would be 
interesting when you think. 

964
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,000
About the cloud tech. 
Because the the bridges are 

965
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,440
really important and if you put 
more stress through a smaller 

966
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:11,240
structure for a long time 
reaching point of failure or not

967
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,280
necessarily failure in a foam 
case but just breakdown of the 

968
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,560
kind of structure of that. 
I do think this would be an 

969
00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,600
interesting shoe for someone on 
our team to bring to you know at

970
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,760
least 200 and just talk about 
that difference because it is 

971
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,480
held together by these bridges. 
And I just think it would be 

972
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,440
interesting and I agree with you
Matt, this is the first on shoe 

973
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:32,080
that is actually felt super 
soft. 

974
00:48:32,240 --> 00:48:34,160
The rest of them are are pretty 
firm even the. 

975
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,160
Yeah, the monster. 
I would say monster. 

976
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:38,760
I agree. 
The monster was, I would say, 

977
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,200
closer to like Nibbus 26, Ride 
17. 

978
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,640
If we were putting in this list,
it would be right around there 

979
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,440
where it feels really nice and I
loved it for long runs, but not 

980
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,080
soft. 
Didn't feel soft, so it felt. 

981
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,880
Responsive to me but not like 
like resilient but not. 

982
00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:57,080
Soft speed board does feel loved
it like my fingers. 

983
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,920
That's a good point. 
Yeah, yeah, like it was pretty 

984
00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:04,000
close to the foot bed. 
Another super, just totally off 

985
00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,680
topic, the on Cloud monster. 
I have seen quite a bit on the 

986
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,040
feet of people that stand all 
day or that are recreational 

987
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:14,800
walkers who have said like this 
is the softest shoe I've ever 

988
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:19,440
felt couple people in Costco 
that was like, hey, I noticed 

989
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:21,000
what you're wearing and they're 
like, Oh yeah, this is the 

990
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,080
softest thing I've ever felt. 
And I used to wear other running

991
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:25,640
shoes like Bondi and stuff like 
that. 

992
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,800
They're describing that as being
way softer. 

993
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,520
I'm like, that's so interesting.
Well, we all know what our 

994
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,800
softest shoe is from this list. 
It's the New Balance more V4. 

995
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,880
This is how I would describe as 
kind of that mushy soft. 

996
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,040
I think for me step in is soft 
and on the run is, is cushy 

997
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:43,880
soft. 
They widen the platform so it 

998
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,520
doesn't feel unstable. 
We've actually put this, Matt, 

999
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,160
you've talked about this shoe 
being a stable neutral shoe, but

1000
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,240
I I think it is a very like 
prototypically soft shoe. 

1001
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:58,960
This and the New Balance 1080V13
that is also extremely soft and 

1002
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,880
is even more narrow. 
So I would say those two shoes 

1003
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,960
for me are definitely on that 
kind of like I said, 

1004
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:10,200
quintessential softness and 
interestingly right, these are 

1005
00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:15,160
Eva based shoes and I think that
we conflate property to 

1006
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:17,600
sensation and these are Eva 
shoes. 

1007
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,000
It feels super soft. 
It's fresh. 

1008
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:22,840
I gotta, I gotta. 
I think, yeah, I think it's 

1009
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:24,160
fresh. 
I think it's a blend. 

1010
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:26,520
I think. 
I don't think it's like a pure. 

1011
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:27,960
And to be. 
Fair. 

1012
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,440
Super clear. 
Yeah, to be fair to shout out to

1013
00:50:30,720 --> 00:50:35,080
Andrew Paulson from Saucony that
even today's Eva is not the same

1014
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:36,640
thing. 
Everything is a blend and it's 

1015
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,720
being done really differently. 
But to your point, yes, 

1016
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:43,040
technically, technically, but 
don't undercut. 

1017
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:45,480
Like when it comes to soft it's 
not responsiveness, not 

1018
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,160
resiliency, but definitely 
compliance. 

1019
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,960
You can still create a really 
soft foam and I think the more 

1020
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:54,560
for me did that and I but I just
love geometrically how they did 

1021
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:58,080
it, where the wide base, the 
side walls just still made it 

1022
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:59,480
stable for me. 
But yeah, it was soft. 

1023
00:50:59,720 --> 00:51:03,960
The 1080 version 13 in my 
opinion is on an entirely 

1024
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:06,840
different level of softness from
the more like the 1080 version 

1025
00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:10,600
13 is the soft issue I think I 
might may have ever. 

1026
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:11,840
Tried. 
Ever. 

1027
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,120
It's wicked soft. 
And I want to try it. 

1028
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,480
But it feels nice. 
David, do you want my pair? 

1029
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:19,200
I'm It's too soft for me to run 
extensively in. 

1030
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:21,360
I I like. 
That I think if it's one thing I

1031
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,200
probably don't need more of, 
yeah. 

1032
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,000
More shoes, yeah. 
We. 

1033
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:29,800
Would need. 
What we what we should also just

1034
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,800
give a shout out. 
So we made our list and we sent 

1035
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:34,920
it out to the team. 
We didn't create our orders 

1036
00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,880
until or we didn't reveal our 
orders till now. 

1037
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:41,800
Andrea who's not here, joked 
about how joked seriously in a 

1038
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,240
serious way that the more V4 is 
a very firm shoe. 

1039
00:51:44,240 --> 00:51:47,400
So we don't have Andrea on this 
to give her list. 

1040
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,040
Maybe we'll have her report ours
to the team. 

1041
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:51,760
We can put it on Instagram or 
something. 

1042
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,400
I think it would be interesting,
but there we go. 

1043
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,000
We've we've gone through it. 
And I think I think something 

1044
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:02,440
that I'm wondering is the three 
of us communicate a lot about 

1045
00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:06,960
perceptions and footwear and we 
tend to think similarly about 

1046
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:10,480
how we define these different 
terms because just because we 

1047
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,640
define it this way doesn't mean 
that a certain company does or 

1048
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,480
another runner. 
And that's why we asked the 

1049
00:52:14,480 --> 00:52:16,720
subjective we did. 
But we are probably more on the 

1050
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,480
same page than a lot of other 
people who would just kind of 

1051
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,800
get these who aren't 
communicating on a literally 

1052
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:24,280
daily basis. 
So that could be playing a role 

1053
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:26,960
in that. 
Our subjective perception is 

1054
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,400
related to our definitions and 
that's why they're similar. 

1055
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,400
But what I did, I just want to 
kind of list our consensus 

1056
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:37,840
order. 
What I did is I created from, 

1057
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,440
you know the most firm to the 
softest and I ascribed points to

1058
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,800
each position. 
So if it was the 10th softest 

1059
00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,480
shoe, it would get one point. 
If it was the 9th softest shoe, 

1060
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:47,600
the. 
Two points are ready. 

1061
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,560
The softest, yeah, I I've been 
doing it this full time. 

1062
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:54,600
And then if it was the softest 
shoe it would be, it would get 

1063
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:57,840
10 points. 
So I'll kind of go from firm to 

1064
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,800
soft. 
So all of us agreed that the 

1065
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,840
Hyperion Max on this list was 
the firmest of them all. 

1066
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,880
So that one was our number 10 
with three points, #9 was the 

1067
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:09,000
Clifton 9 which had seven 
points. 

1068
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:12,520
That one came in at the second 
most firm for both David and I 

1069
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,960
and then third most for Matt, so
pretty pretty close to the top. 

1070
00:53:15,240 --> 00:53:19,920
Then at #8 we had the Ride 17, 
which was right around that 

1071
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:25,160
number 3 and #4 for all of us. 
Then we had a OH tied with the 

1072
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:29,200
Ride 17 was the Nova Blast four.
Then coming in at number six was

1073
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:34,200
the Nimbus 26 with 16 points. 
Then, oh sorry, the Ride and the

1074
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,800
Novoblast both had 10 points and
the Clifton night had seven 

1075
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,440
points. 
I'm saying too many numbers. 

1076
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,960
Sorry everybody, but he coming 
in tied tied for #5. 

1077
00:53:43,120 --> 00:53:46,120
We had the Vomero 17 and the 
Alphafly 3. 

1078
00:53:46,120 --> 00:53:50,920
Both of those were 21 points. 
Then at #3 was the Cloud Surfer 

1079
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:55,720
which scored 23 points, #2 was 
the SC Trainer V2 at 24 points, 

1080
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:00,760
and then finally the more V4 
which got all 30 points for this

1081
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:03,120
rankings. 
So there's our there's our 

1082
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,880
consensus picks from 12:50 for 
the list that we just created. 

1083
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,040
Any reflections from this 
exercise and what what y'all 

1084
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,320
think about? 
Yeah. 

1085
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,440
It's interesting to me again 
that where we thought we were 

1086
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,320
going to disagree seriously and 
then we ended up being fairly 

1087
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:18,600
consistent. 
I know you talked about this, 

1088
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,920
but it's the same thing for Dave
and I in terms of stability. 

1089
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:27,480
Yeah, it was just interesting. 
And I'm very, I really, really 

1090
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:29,880
want like for those of you 
listening, please, please 

1091
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,320
comment if you, even if you 
haven't tried all these, like 

1092
00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:35,720
please just throw some stuff out
because we'd love to see if our 

1093
00:54:35,720 --> 00:54:37,920
perceptions are similar to yours
or different. 

1094
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,120
So please don't be afraid to 
disagree because it's just more 

1095
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,040
data for us, which is really 
cool because again subjective 

1096
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,440
experience is so different. 
We know this, you know, for 

1097
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:50,840
those of us like for me, because
I teach a lot of stuff on like 

1098
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:53,360
pain perception and chronic 
pain, explaining it to students,

1099
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:55,800
which is something really 
important to me because I didn't

1100
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,160
get that in PT school. 
So having students understand 

1101
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:02,240
this and how patience everyone, 
our perception of the world can,

1102
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:04,360
can, is, can be totally 
different. 

1103
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:07,640
So it's very interesting to me 
that we actually share that. 

1104
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,720
So again, please comment on 
whatever medium, what you think,

1105
00:55:12,720 --> 00:55:14,200
if you disagree or agree. 
Because we. 

1106
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,480
And if there's no right or 
wrong, we just want to know. 

1107
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,880
Because it's cool, interesting 
how we all see the world or 

1108
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,480
experience it under foot. 
Yeah, I mean I think it's 

1109
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:26,200
interesting, right. 
We're, we're doing a qualitative

1110
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:28,400
podcast and we still try to 
quantify it. 

1111
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:33,440
And yeah, that's, yeah. 
But this is a fair, this is a 

1112
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:36,800
fairpoint because you can make 
us an actual study, go put it 

1113
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,880
through an IRB, go do the thing,
do your subjective qualitative 

1114
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:44,000
data and then make some kind of 
not a rubric. 

1115
00:55:44,000 --> 00:55:46,480
But you can, you can essentially
get data points out of 

1116
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,640
subjective data and you can say 
like, OK, so this percentage of 

1117
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,920
people like that, that's that 
like you can kind of scale 

1118
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:55,280
things that way, right. 
And you can take qualitative 

1119
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:58,720
data and create something 
numerically then that can all go

1120
00:55:58,720 --> 00:56:00,960
by the wayside because it's 
qualitative data. 

1121
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,200
And where I'm going with this is
that there was a unanimous shoe 

1122
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,600
as the softest on the top here, 
and Andrea would completely 

1123
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:10,880
disagree. 
And if you look at the football 

1124
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:14,600
game today, all of the numbers 
pointed at the Dallas Cowboys, 

1125
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,320
everyone on the planet was 
looking I I'm being serious, 

1126
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,640
though, like, quantitatively 
speaking, the chances of this. 

1127
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:22,960
Happening. 
This shoe was a football team. 

1128
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,520
What? 
Would it be like the chances 

1129
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:28,320
from a number standpoint, you 
know, like don't add up and then

1130
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,400
it goes wildly in the other 
direction? 

1131
00:56:30,400 --> 00:56:34,320
So just like how that can 
happen, you know, in sports, on 

1132
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,880
any given day, that can happen 
on a shoe, on someone's foot, 

1133
00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,520
any given day, and everyone's 
gonna have a different opinion, 

1134
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:43,720
if not more so. 
How tired, How tired you are can

1135
00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:46,200
definitely affect how a shoe 
feels under foot. 

1136
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:47,640
I think there's a something 
else. 

1137
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:51,080
So one thing you can compare is 
this group of qualitative data 

1138
00:56:51,120 --> 00:56:53,800
which might create a consensus 
compared to this person's 

1139
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,440
qualitative data which could be 
against the consensus like you 

1140
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,920
just mentioned. 
The other thing we don't have is

1141
00:56:58,920 --> 00:57:02,200
what is that scientific 
definition of compliance and 

1142
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,080
resilience for each of these 
foams or the shoes conglomerate.

1143
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,200
We don't have that comparison 
for this list. 

1144
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:11,400
I would love if we had that to 
now say, hey, we created this 

1145
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:15,080
list of consensus doesn't match 
at all with the design of these 

1146
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:19,280
shoes and how you define define 
compliance or resilience or some

1147
00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:20,560
combination. 
I think that would be 

1148
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,280
fascinating, but we don't have 
that data. 

1149
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:26,600
I I would bet money that it 
didn't necessarily match. 

1150
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:28,760
It might be somewhat close, but 
it wouldn't match for some 

1151
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,720
reason. 
I'm thinking we had a couple. 

1152
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,480
Calls, I think that would be 
much higher up and then like we 

1153
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,120
said it not to say it's not 
soft, it is soft, but the other 

1154
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:41,960
things kind of firm it up. 
We we've talked this is slightly

1155
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:43,200
off topic. 
We've talked to several 

1156
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,840
companies about like numbers 
versus like personal preference 

1157
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:49,480
and perception. 
We've have several companies who

1158
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:53,120
have said yes, we have elite 
athletes and we test them and we

1159
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:58,600
find of our racing line, this 
shoe is the most economical for 

1160
00:57:58,600 --> 00:58:02,400
our athlete and the the athlete 
will end up choosing something 

1161
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,080
different because they perceive 
that it's faster for them or 

1162
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,600
feels better for them. 
So I think again that perception

1163
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:12,560
and the psychology behind 
performance and perception is 

1164
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,160
extremely important and 
encourage people to really, yes,

1165
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:19,800
there are numbers out there. 
I get it, we're not Pooh poohing

1166
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,640
all numbers, OK. 
Their numbers can play an 

1167
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:26,400
important role, but they may or 
may not correlate with what your

1168
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:28,280
experience is. 
And we have enough data at this 

1169
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,720
point to know that a lot of 
times comfort can be a really 

1170
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:34,360
important factor for individual 
performance and various things. 

1171
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,440
So it's don't, yeah, you can 
look at the numbers, but don't 

1172
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:40,840
forget to learn what feels good 
for you. 

1173
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,480
I think that's been a kind of 
overarching theme for us is yes,

1174
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,240
we have numbers, but because 
people are so different and we 

1175
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,360
know that from the evidence that
currently is going, you have to 

1176
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,120
learn what works for your body 
and you may also have to learn 

1177
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:53,920
what you perceive as soft and. 
Or what you're used to. 

1178
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:56,360
Right, Yeah. 
And I think a great example of 

1179
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,880
this is the Atlanta Trials with 
the debut of the Nike Alphafly 

1180
00:58:59,880 --> 00:59:03,800
One when a lot of Nike athletes 
who now have this new issue that

1181
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,920
they've tested to the nines and 
they still are opting for their 

1182
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,720
four percents. 
Or was it it was next percent at

1183
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:16,480
that time, next percent one. 
And they were still opting for 

1184
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:17,880
that because that's what they're
used to. 

1185
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,760
And really the only one you saw 
where it were the people that 

1186
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:24,960
were stoked to get a pair or 
game one up, you know, And it 

1187
00:59:24,960 --> 00:59:27,800
was like it was like anyone who 
was actually running for Nike 

1188
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,520
for the most part, didn't 
actually run in the shoe. 

1189
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:31,440
And they put all this work into 
it. 

1190
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,560
And then obviously that changes 
later down the line. 

1191
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,160
But I mean, it shows you when 
something's new and someone's 

1192
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:41,120
used to something, they might 
not want to do it, even if they,

1193
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:42,880
even if they perceive it to be 
faster. 

1194
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:45,360
If they're not used to it and 
they don't know how it's going 

1195
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:47,120
to perform, that also changes 
things. 

1196
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,040
Well that that was my comment 
not to go off the rails on the 

1197
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:54,000
out fly 3 where when I first put
the shoe on I was like holy moly

1198
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:56,160
like I would not race in this 
right now. 

1199
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:59,840
And now that I've gotten like 
2530 miles and I the shoe's 

1200
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,200
broken into me and I've broken 
into the shoe and I'm used to 

1201
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:03,760
it. 
Now I'm going, OK, I know how to

1202
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,080
control the shoe now this would 
be my top pick right now for for

1203
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:08,680
racing. 
But when I pulled it out the 

1204
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:11,000
first couple of miles, 
absolutely not because I'm like 

1205
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,040
I I don't I don't know what I'm 
perceiving here like I don't 

1206
01:00:14,040 --> 01:00:15,120
know how to do what to do with 
this. 

1207
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:18,120
So yeah making sure you're 
comfortable with your race day 

1208
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:21,720
pick is really important. 
It does it just because you're 

1209
01:00:21,720 --> 01:00:23,240
most economical doesn't mean 
you're going to PR. 

1210
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,080
It could be the opposite where. 
You can only control it for so 

1211
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:27,560
long and then everything falls 
apart. 

1212
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:29,560
So or you might be fine, I don't
know. 

1213
01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,520
So this is not an episode about 
maximalism. 

1214
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:36,760
However, I think one study we 
didn't bring up in the beginning

1215
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,360
that we meant to was a study 
that looked at the biomechanical

1216
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,320
implications to softer versus 
firmer shoes. 

1217
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,840
And one of the major 
biomechanical differences that 

1218
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,600
they noticed when they put 
somebody in a softer shoe, all 

1219
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:56,200
of these shoes would qualify as 
being similar to or more soft 

1220
01:00:56,200 --> 01:01:00,360
than the study shoe. 
This was back in 2016. 

1221
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,600
So just think about how much 
technology has changed since 

1222
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,480
then. 
This is all softer than that. 

1223
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,400
What they found is that the 
softer shoe resulted in higher 

1224
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,640
leg stiffness, meaning that 
there is less compliance through

1225
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:14,160
your knee and your hip and your 
ankle that you stiffened up all 

1226
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:16,560
your joints. 
A lot of that is to be reflexive

1227
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:18,960
for the softness underneath your
foot, the lack of perception of 

1228
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,040
the ground, you have a reflexive
stiffening. 

1229
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,880
There are two potential things 
with that Higher leg stiffness 

1230
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,320
may lead to increased loading 
rates. 

1231
01:01:27,720 --> 01:01:30,360
Higher stiffness also can 
increase running economy. 

1232
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:33,840
So there's lots of trade-offs 
with what happens when you run 

1233
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:36,520
with a stiffer limb. 
Or in the same way somebody who 

1234
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,640
has Patel femoral pain or some 
sort of chondral defect in the 

1235
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:43,120
knee who only gets pain at a 
certain degrees, maybe 35° or 

1236
01:01:43,120 --> 01:01:44,920
something of knee bending, 
because that's where their 

1237
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:46,800
chondral defect comes in 
contact. 

1238
01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,200
If you have a shoe that's so 
soft that it stiffens you up, 

1239
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,320
you could avoid that chondral 
defect and have less pain with 

1240
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:54,360
running. 
So there's lots of potential 

1241
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,400
implications for the reality of 
like stiffening with softer 

1242
01:01:57,400 --> 01:01:59,960
shoes, but that is a 
consideration if you're like, 

1243
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:01,880
should I run in something super 
soft or firmer? 

1244
01:02:02,080 --> 01:02:06,800
That's a studied biomechanical 
difference that we've seen is 

1245
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,520
like stiffness in response to 
the amount of softness 

1246
01:02:09,520 --> 01:02:12,080
underneath your foot. 
So is that softness in terms of 

1247
01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,800
stack height or softness in 
terms of subjective feel? 

1248
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,280
They were doing the this was 
they were looking at compliance 

1249
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:21,240
numbers. 
I'm also partially trolling. 

1250
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:23,080
Oh, thanks. 
No, that's. 

1251
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:25,840
Actually it's a fair question, 
but at the same time it's like 

1252
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,640
yes, because we just went on 
that whole ranch about softness 

1253
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:30,680
and then like what it. 
No. 

1254
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:33,880
No, no, this is totally so. 
What is the softer shoe? 

1255
01:02:35,240 --> 01:02:39,080
So I want to somebody correct me
because I'm not remembering 

1256
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,240
this, but Malazo did a study 
where he was looking at injury 

1257
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:44,720
prevention and doing a 
prospective study and I can't 

1258
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,200
remember if they found if it was
cushioning was the term or if 

1259
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:53,320
they used the term softer shoes.
Yeah, pretty sure. 

1260
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:56,000
Yeah, because. 
And I want to be careful that 

1261
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:58,480
people don't take anything that 
we're saying is like, oh, you're

1262
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,160
going to like have reduced 
injury just because. 

1263
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:04,040
Yeah, that that little variable 
right there of going, yeah, you 

1264
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,400
have reflexive stiffening that 
can actually increase joint 

1265
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:09,120
loading. 
So in some people, as Nathan 

1266
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:11,240
mentioned, that actually might 
be a great thing because it 

1267
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:12,720
helps. 
Like, you know, you're not going

1268
01:03:12,720 --> 01:03:14,040
to go through as big of a range 
of motion. 

1269
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:15,760
You may not load a defect or 
something like that. 

1270
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,280
But other people might feel 
like, wow, I'm actually more 

1271
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,000
sore after running in this units
because yeah, you're you're 

1272
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,400
utilizing more muscle, you're 
stiffening up in a way that that

1273
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,720
might happen and actually can 
increase joint loading. 

1274
01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:31,600
It doesn't mean you're going to 
get like joint arthritis, things

1275
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:33,840
with more cushion shoes or 
necessarily with less. 

1276
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,920
It just means that some people 
are are going to react in a way 

1277
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,440
that you shouldn't think, oh, 
softer is better. 

1278
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:44,680
It's what works for you. 
Yeah, what works for you and you

1279
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,600
find optimal is best. 
Well, everybody, thanks for 

1280
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,880
coming on this journey with us 
where we talked about softness 

1281
01:03:49,880 --> 01:03:52,120
of shoes. 
We took a group of 10 shoes that

1282
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:55,280
we've all ran in and we ranked 
them and we came up with our 

1283
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:57,120
consensus picks. 
Again, we want to hear your 

1284
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,040
thoughts. 
You can share them on our social

1285
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:00,840
media posts. 
You can find us at docks of 

1286
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:05,600
running, share them on YouTube 
and you can watch this podcast 

1287
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,440
on YouTube if you want. 
Or you can listen wherever you 

1288
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:10,680
listen to podcasts. 
If you have it in you to take 

1289
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:15,560
two minutes to go and you know 
rate and leave a review for this

1290
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,120
podcast, that is an extreme help
to us. 

1291
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,040
In fact, I think, you know, I 
think the ratio of people who 

1292
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:26,280
have reviewed to listen is less 
than 1%. 

1293
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:31,600
Like far less than 1%. 
Yeah, far, far less than 1%. 

1294
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:33,400
So take that time and go review 
it. 

1295
01:04:33,400 --> 01:04:35,400
That would be awesome. 
Otherwise, we look forward to 

1296
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,400
talking to you all next time. 
Oh, Matt, you got something to 

1297
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:38,440
say? 
I'm going to give you a choice 

1298
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:40,080
either. 
Please go review our stuff. 

1299
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:45,400
Or what rates, what you think 
the best flavor of shoe is. 

1300
01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,640
So go lick a midsole. 
And I'm just kidding. 

1301
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:51,560
Please go over if you are. 
And that's all, folks. 

1302
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:52,840
I'm glad that. 
We stayed on for that. 

1303
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:55,560
Have a great Have a great night 
DJ. 

1304
01:04:55,560 --> 01:04:57,480
Don't cut that. 
Keep it in.