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Hello, everybody, this is Nathan
from dr. 

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Brennan, welcome to a doctor 
running podcast. 

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ShakeOut episode I'm here with 
Michael marksberry. 

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I'm he is the CEO and founder 
co-founder of oros. 

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And I'm really excited to get to
talk to him to learn a little 

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bit about him myself because 
this is our first time meeting, 

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and we're just gonna have a 
conversation about the things 

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that he's been up to and also 
some stuff. 

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That I've been able to test out 
and we're going to use this 

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ShakeOut episode just to explore
their industry and kind of what 

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he's doing in the Footwear space
and Beyond. 

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So, and I think and Beyond might
be an appropriate kind of term 

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to use with you. 
So, thanks for joining the, the 

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Shake on episode. 
Michael Nation, my pleasure, 

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excited to be here. 
Thanks for having me. 

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Absolutely. 
So let's just start kind of tell

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me a little bit about who you 
are, where you're from and what,

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you know, what is oros and what 
did it look like to found that? 

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What? 
Background. 

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Yeah. 
So I'm Michael marksberry. 

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I'm the co-founder and CEO of 
oros as you said and we're a 

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material technology company. 
We create the most advanced 

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thermal materials on the planet.
And that's what we did with with

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Meryl and in the Footwear you 
tested and excited to talk more.

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More about it. 
Yeah, awesome. 

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So how did you get into kind of 
this Material Science World and 

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developing thermal Footwear? 
What is Well Footwear mean what 

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is that kind of materials mean 
and what's that look like? 

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Yeah so when I was in college, 
my sophomore year, I backpacked 

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across Europe, amazing 
experience. 

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One really big problem. 
Got to the top of the mountain 

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that I was climbing in 
Switzerland and I looked like 

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the Michelin Man. 
And I remember thinking like, 

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There's gotta be this doesn't 
make sense. 

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There's got to be a better way 
to cut the bulk, cut the layers,

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still stay warm came back to. 
The US was talking to a friend. 

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Now co-founder oros with Ravenna
about this experience and he and

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I are both science Geeks so 
we're like, you know, pretty 

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excited to see. 
Like if we could find a solution

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to this problem, we had where I 
looked like the bitumen talking 

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about. 
So we started dieting and dance.

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Elation and looking at 
insulation across pretty much 

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every industry from rocket. 
Ablative has two Home Building, 

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insulation, whatever just to try
to find a solution to the 

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Mitchell event problem. 
It like that coin term. 

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The Michelin Man. 
Problem total is great. 

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No, it, yeah. 
Because it was the experience 

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and yeah, we found out something
pretty interesting. 

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We found out that That we 
weren't the only ones struggling

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with insulation, it turned out, 
it was a pretty ubiquitous 

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problem. 
Like, for example, in the cold 

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chain, packaging industry, when 
we transport medication, we 

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throw out or waste 35 billion 
dollars of temperature-sensitive

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medication the year. 
Just do the failings and 

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Temperature Control in the 
supply chain allow. 

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Yeah. 
Thermal problem that shouldn't 

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exist, and then yep. 
You look at energy consumption. 

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And you see that 50 percent of 
the world's energy consumption 

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literally trillions of dollars, 
a year, go simply to producing 

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heat, namely for buildings and 
shelters, incredibly energy 

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inefficient energy storage for 
batteries or immense defense and

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Government applications the 
list, kind of goes on and on and

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so riff. 
And I kind of took from this two

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things. 
One, We weren't able to find a 

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solution to our mission and 
problem, but more. 

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So we found out. 
Hey, the problems kind of, a lot

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bigger than a parallel. 
The problem really is 

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insulation. 
So we became a obsessed with 

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finding a solution. 
I then got super lucky. 

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I got a scholarship created by 
the Mercury, Seven, astronauts 

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called the astronaut scholarship
and through that scholarship 

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learned about this technology. 
NASA was using to insulate 

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spacecraft called aerogel. 
And NASA said, hey, this aerogel

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thing is the lowest thermal 
conductive solid in existence. 

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Oh, and we're using it to 
insulate things in space, where 

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it's pretty cold. 
And so Rick and I are like, 

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well, hold on, wait a minute, we
just spent the last couple 

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months looking for a solution 
and you're saying this material 

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is the lowest thermal conductive
solid in existence. 

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So it's the best insulation on 
Earth you're using it in space. 

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Ace where it can get down to - 
450 degrees Fahrenheit. 

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Like what are we missing here? 
Like how come this isn't used 

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ubiquitously across like every 
application on earth like 

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certainly would solve all the 
problems that we found in all 

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these markets and that in 
essence is what started or us. 

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It kind of our founding story 
and so orosz, really is a 

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conduit for insulation and which
could be applied to any These 

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industries that's kind of 
obviously, your spark was for 

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apparel and kind of this into, 
to be able to hike on the top of

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mountains without getting cold, 
or without having to be the 

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Michelin Man. 
But what you're working on 

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really is something that you 
want to be able to be used in 

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multiple different spaces that 
my am I interpreting that right 

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Nathan you know that our vision 
is to completely transform 

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thermal materials, that's what 
we're after. 

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Yeah, so our our audience, a lot
of them are science Geeks. 

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Yes. 
Most are in the like Footwear 

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science and running science, 
kind of stuff, but can knowing 

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that you have that kind of an 
audience listening, can you go 

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into what a thermal conductive? 
Solid means a little bit more 

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and kind of helped us understand
that kind of term and some 

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examples. 
Maybe, yeah, so conduction is 

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one of the three modes of heat 
transfer. 

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You got conduction, convection 
and radiation and on On Earth, 

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you don't have to worry about 
radiation a whole lot for most 

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applications. 
So it's namely like conduction 

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and convection and Aerogel the 
with conduction, you want as 

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little as physically possible, 
it's like golf the lower the 

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score, the better, okay? 
Because it means that there's 

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less heat transfer the lower the
conductance go. 

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So a really low thermal 
conductive material has really, 

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really really great insulation 
and vice versa, highly 

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conductive material, as really 
terrible insulation. 

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And so when NASA says hey this 
is the lowest thermal conductive

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solid Existence. 
It means, oh my gosh. 

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This is, this is a really great 
insulator, and the cool thing 

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about really low conduction is 
like, when you look at the goose

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down or traditional 
installations, especially like, 

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in the apparel world in the 
consumer goods World, they all 

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require air space Loft, bulk to 
work, right? 

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That's why you have your 
Mitchell man, jackets? 

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So puffy. 
And when you compress that 

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insulation, you lose all that 
air space. 

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So, you actually lose a lot of 
your thermal performance when 

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it's compressed. 
Same thing like in a foot bed in

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a shoe, right? 
Like, if you're standing on your

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foot bed, you're actually 
compressing that footbed and 

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losing some of the thermal 
performance due to that the 

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nature of Loft. 
Well, that's not true with 

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aerogel thereby not true with, 
with our Tech of solar core. 

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So in a footbed, for example, 
like the Marabou when you're 

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standing on it and compressing 
it, you're actually not losing. 

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Any thermal performance like you
would in a traditional foot bed 

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or or or garment that's super 
bulky in the like, yeah, that's 

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actually super helpful. 
So like if you were to take an 

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ice cube and put an ice cube 
against one material for 10 

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seconds, and then put it against
another material for 10 seconds.

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The one that's less cold, is the
mower Thermo conductive or 

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delete the less thermal 
conductive solid and you want as

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low as possible. 
So, you want the least amount of

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heat transfer between the As 
possible. 

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And so you the this the solar 
solar gel I might just make sure

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that I'm getting that very close
solar course. 

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All right I mixed them yeah, all
good. 

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Yeah, aerogel totally, it's 
solar core very close. 

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Yell, solar core is the 
technology. 

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So what did they say? 
When you when you learned about 

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about this technology and you 
were curious about why is this 

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not being used? 
What were some of the barriers 

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to more widespread use? 
And how did you kind of tackle 

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that question? 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
So they were two really big 

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barriers with aerogel and the 
the most apparent with and I 

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bought our first samples of 
aerogel right after right after 

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we learned about it and I 
remember we were sitting in an 

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organic chemistry class and 
opened up this packet of aerogel

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and put it in our hands and It 
shattered into a thousand little

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pieces. 
Oh wow. 

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Yeah so fragile incredibly 
fragile like yeah the point that

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you really couldn't use it in a 
whole lot of application and so 

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prop barrier. 
Number one was Hey how do you 

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take this amazing insulation and
just make it not personal? 

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So you could use it in whatever 
application you want. 

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And the second Big Challenge 
beyond the brittleness was the 

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cost. 
Aerogels were normally 

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exorbitantly expensive and so 
that was a much bigger problem 

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around. 
Hey, how do you think about 

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Manufacturing? 
A vera gel is in a methodology 

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that allows you to reduce the 
cost. 

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That one's probably a much 
bigger story for another time. 

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But on the, on the brittleness 
side, we started looking at, you

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know, where we got our own 
inspiration here, we just climb 

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this mountain and so we started 
looking at the outdoors industry

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and something really interesting
popped up. 

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You looked at like the wetsuits 
we're using neoprene. 

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For insulation to foot beds, 
where you're using a closed cell

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foam, sometimes opens out but 
foam for insulation and you look

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at like the squishy cooler that 
your mom packed for you when you

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were a kid. 
Yep, it's all fun. 

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And so Riven are like, well, 
hold on, wait a minute. 

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What if you just took aerogel 
particles and combined it with 

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phone, you get the flexibility 
and the durability of the foam. 

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You get the insulation of the 
aerogel. 

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Well, you can create this 
composite that has the best 

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thermal performance. 
While not having any of the 

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brittleness challenges that come
with aerogel, and it turned out 

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that it worked. 
And so it's cool fortunate 

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enough to get it patented and 
whatnot. 

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And so that was gen1 Tech and 
that's what's in the in the 

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Marabou. 
And that's kind of how we solve 

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that barrier brittleness. 
Yep, that's super exciting. 

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So, I, I'm also, I'm always just
curious so like the Is it your 

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brain that was able to like 
conceptualize those things was 

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your partner's. 
Brain was at some like, how did 

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you come up with the idea? 
Like where did you learn about 

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materials? 
Was it through your studies? 

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Or was it through like just 
experience and your own 

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exploration? 
Like how did you guys do this? 

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Yeah, so we There are people way
Smarter on this Earth than 

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within me. 
I can't hands down and a lot of 

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them are on the team today. 
We're fortunate to work with a 

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really incredible team that runs
circles around us. 

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I think, you know, one of the 
core values at oros is have grit

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and it even gets back to the 
name or oh, soros's ancient, 

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Greek for Mountain. 
It's a its symbolism for the 

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challenge in the sacrifice that 
comes with reaching the peak of 

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core value, that written, I both
share and being science Geeks 

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for us. 
Grits a lot about like a science

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experiment. 
Like you have a hypothesis, you 

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test it and either you're right 
or you're wrong. 

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More often than not, you're 
wrong. 

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And you just take that 
experience and now, you know, 

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something new about your 
hypothesis. 

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So you got to tweak your 
hypothesis so that you can try 

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again and having Ritz having the
ability to run those tests over 

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and over and over and over again
until you have a right 

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hypothesis. 
And so I guess the way that this

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whole thing started out is we 
had a problem. 

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We were on this mountain and 
look like the Michelin Man. 

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And then we needed to find a 
solution and we looked at a 

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bunch of solutions and the 
market and couldn't find one and

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then found aerogels like, oh 
this could work. 

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But then there was another 
problem because it was brittle. 

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So then we had, you know, run a 
bunch of science experiments to 

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figure out how to make it not 
brittle, a bunch didn't work. 

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And then the foam thing did and 
then it was well, does anyone 

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want to buy it? 
And so then we ran a bunch of 

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sight, you know? 
So it's just Just you're just 

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really designed experiment, 
right over and over and over and

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over again. 
Exactly. 

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Yeah, that's pretty cool. 
I question, when you, when you 

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change the properties from 
whatever type of material 

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aerogel is in the first place 
into a foam, do the thermal 

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conductive properties change at 
all as their demand? 

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Is there any diminishing of 
that, you know how amazing it 

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was on that in that one form? 
Does that change somewhat when 

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you go to the foam? 
Like what kind of Translation 

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are you looking at with thermal 
conductive property? 

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Oh 100% like you know when you 
have pure aerogel it's going to 

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have the best thermal 
performance sort of like a 

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vacuum or something like that. 
And so when you combine it with 

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another material, like foam, 
that combination is not going to

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be as good thermally performing 
as pure aerogel however, it'll 

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be drastically better. 
Better than, you know, 

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traditional insulation. 
And so what we had to figure out

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is okay, what volume fraction of
aerogel is, right? 

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For this foam material and yada?
Yada yada yada yada. 

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So yeah. 100%. 
Absolutely. 

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Yeah, cool. 
So I think this is a, for the 

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last couple minutes, I want to 
shift towards where this where 

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you're gonna be able to find 
solar core, the foam foam 

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product of aerogel where you're 
going to find this. 

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And I think, It's funny. 
We found out just before you 

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recorded that, I actually got to
try out the product before you 

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even have been able to try out 
the product, which feels like a 

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crime, I don't think that should
have been the case. 

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So I'm sorry that it is. 
It's also negative 24 degrees, 

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wind chill where I am this 
morning. 

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So you know what maybe I do need
it a little bit, but tell me. 

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Can you just talk a little bit 
about where people are going to 

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see where they're going to see 
solar core? 

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How it's incorporated into this?
Product and we can kind of go 

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from there. 
But where are people going to 

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see this? 
Yeah, I'm super jealous. 

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You were able to test the 
Merrill Thermo Rogue boot in 

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advance of me, it's an awesome 
looking boot. 

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We're super excited and we are 
insulating this collection of 

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Merrill boots with silver core 
Tech. 

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They did Merrill did a bunch of 
really incredible testing with 

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third-party Labs like prior Us 
partnering and we're really 

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pleased with the results of the 
performance of solar core. 

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So we're super excited to be 
partnering with them and I 

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believe it comes out and fall 
2023. 

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00:16:57,100 --> 00:16:58,500
Yeah, that's what I've heard 
too. 

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So we're super, super excited 
and Merrill has been a great 

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partner for us and excited about
the future that's great. 

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And in terms of where you find 
the solar core, is it all just 

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in the foot bed or does it also 
wrap through the Upper of that 

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boot, is it, or is it just 
underneath your foot, or does it

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00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,200
wrap over the top? 
How is it incorporated into the 

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boot? 
So that one's just in the foot 

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bed, with some of our partners, 
we do foot beds, and uppers like

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toe guard type deals, rather 
than uppers. 

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Long-term, there's a really 
awesome opportunity for uppers. 

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00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,800
Next time, I'm on the podcast, 
we'll talk more about that. 

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00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,900
But with the Merrill boot we're 
in the footbed, that's great. 

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00:17:41,100 --> 00:17:46,300
It's been it's been For me to 
test it out and I mostly I'm 

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00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:50,200
using it for sledding with my 
kids actually and it's nice to 

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00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,300
have something that feels a 
little bit lighter weight that 

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00:17:52,300 --> 00:17:55,000
still is keeping me. 
Keeping me warm, is it working 

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00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,400
for you through these winter 
months? 

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00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,700
And it is, yeah, it's a, it's a 
really comfortable boot. 

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00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:03,300
It's pretty. 
It's flexible to, in a way that 

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00:18:03,300 --> 00:18:06,800
I'm not used to, so, I guess. 
Quick story is I went, I got to 

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00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,200
go to, so I'm in Wisconsin. 
So I'm a Packer fan and I went 

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00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,300
to the Final regular season 
game, which was if the Packers 

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00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,500
win, they make the playoffs. 
Yada yada. 

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00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:19,800
It was pretty cool. 
It's also in January, which 

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00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,000
means it's cold. 
And they play the Lions and we 

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00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,200
lost. 
So that's the end of the story 

301
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,900
spoiler. 
But I what I did is I usually 

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00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:30,800
wear these, you know, huge boots
that are for snowmobiling. 

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00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,000
I'm not a snowmobiler but my 
father-in-law is. 

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00:18:33,100 --> 00:18:35,600
So you give me this these boots 
that are for snowmobiling and 

305
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,800
yes they're warm. 
They also way like honestly 

306
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,500
they're probably five to six 
pounds per Boot and so I don't 

307
00:18:42,700 --> 00:18:45,900
I'm exaggerating at the 526 
pounds, it's like a, it's a 

308
00:18:45,908 --> 00:18:50,300
slog. 
And so, I think that on that 

309
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,400
day, it was like low 20s, and 
you're sitting outside for like,

310
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,400
three hours. 
And my feet were feeling pretty 

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00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,200
good. 
And then I had a very similar 

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00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:00,800
experience using these boots. 
Not just sitting, but being 

313
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,700
outside and walking in very, 
similar temperatures and I 

314
00:19:04,708 --> 00:19:08,700
didn't have any any issues in 
terms of cold for my feet. 

315
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,200
And so having something that 
much lighter, that that worked. 

316
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,500
I thought it was, I thought it 
was working really well and it's

317
00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:19,200
comfortable and fits. 
Well, so it's fun to have it in 

318
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:22,000
my, arsenal of cold, weather 
gear for sure. 

319
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,600
And it's been fun to test it out
and I but I still feel bad that 

320
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,000
I got it before you don't. 
I'm excited. 

321
00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,300
And that's a heck of a review. 
So that's really cool to hear. 

322
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,900
And yeah. 
Wisconsin also has some amazing 

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00:19:37,900 --> 00:19:39,700
snowmobilers story for another 
time. 

324
00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:43,900
But last time I went, so ya 
feeling, We went with some some 

325
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:48,700
people from Wisconsin and they 
kicked my butt. 

326
00:19:49,300 --> 00:19:50,600
It was amazing. 
I was better. 

327
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:56,700
They were so that's cool. 
Awesome, well, I want to, is 

328
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:59,400
there anything else you want to 
share with everybody before we 

329
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:04,700
kind of sign things off? 
No, it's been a pleasure and 

330
00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:07,900
really excited about what you're
doing here on this podcast and 

331
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,500
really excited to be on and 
appreciative. 

332
00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:14,900
So great. 
Yeah, thank you for joining and 

333
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:18,600
just as a reminder, if you're 
wanting to check out anything 

334
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,100
that we are doing, you can 
follow us on Instagram, Facebook

335
00:20:21,100 --> 00:20:22,600
and Twitter. 
If you want to find out more 

336
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,600
about oros, you can go to their.
Do you guys have a website that 

337
00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,900
that people could check out to 
learn more about what you're 

338
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:31,700
doing? 
So we launched the apparel brand

339
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:38,800
is like a fun proof point at 
www.gross.com, okay? 

340
00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:40,700
Great screen. 
You can go check them out there 

341
00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:45,000
and I think the They're the 
other touch point for me here 

342
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,300
that I probably should have 
mentioned at the front of this 

343
00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:50,200
episode. 
But this this ShakeOut was not 

344
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,900
sponsored by oros. 
They did not pay us to come on 

345
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,200
to the podcast. 
They did not pay us to review 

346
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,500
their shoe. 
Its function very much like all 

347
00:20:57,500 --> 00:21:00,600
of our other Footwear reviews 
that we've done at Darks of 

348
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,000
running. 
And so, we're pretty transparent

349
00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,300
about that stuff. 
So I just wanted to put that out

350
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,500
there and this is my first time 
meeting Michael, but I'm so glad

351
00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,400
that I got to. 
It was fun to hear more about an

352
00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:14,200
industry, a whole industry. 
Tree that I've never think 

353
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,600
about. 
So thanks for sharing your 

354
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,900
Insight and your story. 
And I'm sure we'll talk again 

355
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:21,500
soon. 
Thank you everybody for joining.