1 00:00:08,380 --> 00:00:11,007 Hey everyone, and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast, 2 00:00:11,007 --> 00:00:13,788 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, talk about the 3 00:00:13,788 --> 00:00:16,158 art and the science of things that we put on our feet. 4 00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:18,219 Today, we have quite an exciting episode. 5 00:00:18,479 --> 00:00:21,846 We're very thankful to have some of the Adidas team come and talk 6 00:00:21,846 --> 00:00:25,745 to us about the new Adidas Adios Pro 5, which we're very excited 7 00:00:25,745 --> 00:00:28,155 for. And I have Stefan here, who, if 8 00:00:28,155 --> 00:00:30,435 you could introduce yourself to our listeners and viewers, that 9 00:00:30,435 --> 00:00:32,941 would be great, because we're going to have a pretty awesome 10 00:00:32,941 --> 00:00:35,211 conversation about some of the things that happened into the 11 00:00:35,211 --> 00:00:38,523 development of this shoe. Matt, first and foremost, thanks 12 00:00:38,523 --> 00:00:39,943 for having me. I'm Stefan. 13 00:00:39,943 --> 00:00:43,067 I'm heading up the product team here at Adidas Running in 14 00:00:43,067 --> 00:00:46,596 Herzogenaurach in Germany. And as I said, we're super 15 00:00:46,596 --> 00:00:49,044 pumped to have a little conversation around the Adios 16 00:00:49,044 --> 00:00:53,421 Pro 5 today. So there's a lot of new things 17 00:00:53,421 --> 00:00:56,277 about this shoe. You definitely went for the 18 00:00:56,277 --> 00:01:01,256 overhaul with the Adios Pro 5. We're going to get into some of 19 00:01:01,256 --> 00:01:05,181 the details, but what are the big components and details that 20 00:01:05,181 --> 00:01:07,339 you're most excited for with this shoe? 21 00:01:07,339 --> 00:01:11,820 And kind of what led you to go this direction? 22 00:01:11,820 --> 00:01:16,950 As I said, we're super excited about the Pro 5 and the 23 00:01:16,950 --> 00:01:19,800 fundamental result that you have in your hand right now. 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,330 A lot of the ideas and thinking and problem solving also came 25 00:01:24,330 --> 00:01:29,124 from the Pro Evo 3, which is our elite racing shoe that has 26 00:01:29,124 --> 00:01:34,743 broken the sub-2 barrier. One of the key ideas that we 27 00:01:34,743 --> 00:01:38,875 wanted to bring in that is not just about weight saving, not 28 00:01:38,875 --> 00:01:42,702 just about more energy return or more pop, is how we bring all 29 00:01:42,702 --> 00:01:44,760 those things together into a full package. 30 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,120 One of the key enablers for us was, of course, the energy rim. 31 00:01:49,639 --> 00:01:54,928 So moving from the rods into the energy rim, that had a couple of 32 00:01:54,928 --> 00:01:59,069 benefits for us. One, we could maximize the foam 33 00:01:59,069 --> 00:02:02,858 underfoot, especially under your metatarsals and in your forefoot 34 00:02:02,858 --> 00:02:06,199 area, where we had three to four millimeter thick rods. 35 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:11,801 Imagine you can remove those rods and really fill all that 36 00:02:11,801 --> 00:02:14,979 space with super energetic, high resilient foam. 37 00:02:15,399 --> 00:02:19,339 That's one key unlock for us using the rim over the rods. 38 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,084 What we also realized working with our athletes and what we've 39 00:02:23,084 --> 00:02:27,296 seen on Pro Evo 3, by moving the stiffening agent, how we call 40 00:02:27,296 --> 00:02:31,184 it, especially to the outer rim, so lateral and medial side, we 41 00:02:31,184 --> 00:02:34,747 enhance this trampoline effect that we actually want to get out 42 00:02:34,747 --> 00:02:38,524 of a super shoe. So it allows us to really 43 00:02:38,524 --> 00:02:42,308 maintain the integrity, so the stiffness of the shoe that we 44 00:02:42,308 --> 00:02:46,776 need, but also then help us to guide the foot a little bit 45 00:02:46,776 --> 00:02:49,064 more. And especially when you think 46 00:02:49,064 --> 00:02:53,340 about those super soft and super compliant foams towards the last 47 00:02:53,340 --> 00:02:57,220 third of a marathon distance, comfort plays a key role. 48 00:02:57,759 --> 00:03:01,344 And keeping your foot over the tooling also plays a key role 49 00:03:01,344 --> 00:03:03,630 within that. That's why we've always tried 50 00:03:03,630 --> 00:03:08,176 also to enhance the stability. And we have seen this energy rim 51 00:03:08,176 --> 00:03:12,379 helps us significantly to bring this stability more to the 52 00:03:12,379 --> 00:03:13,639 runner. Got it. 53 00:03:13,970 --> 00:03:17,291 So the energy rim was, that actually goes into my first 54 00:03:17,291 --> 00:03:20,723 question about the energy rim and that design, which my 55 00:03:20,723 --> 00:03:23,378 experience having gotten a ton of miles in the shoe already is 56 00:03:23,378 --> 00:03:26,949 that, yeah, I can actually feel the compliance and resilience of 57 00:03:26,949 --> 00:03:29,724 the foam. Whereas a lot of times with the 58 00:03:29,724 --> 00:03:32,448 stiffening agents, the plates, the rods, what have you, that 59 00:03:32,448 --> 00:03:35,232 oftentimes gets muted because people really perceive softness 60 00:03:35,232 --> 00:03:38,360 depending on what is right directly under their foot. 61 00:03:38,410 --> 00:03:39,699 And a lot of that stuff sits there. 62 00:03:40,130 --> 00:03:43,938 So you are confirmed that, yes, that was a goal to go, hey, can 63 00:03:43,938 --> 00:03:47,198 we have the runner perceive more of that softness, get more of 64 00:03:47,198 --> 00:03:50,424 that bounce? But then also it sounds like it 65 00:03:50,424 --> 00:03:53,020 does impact frontal plane. Is that throughout the whole 66 00:03:53,020 --> 00:03:56,010 shoe that you've been able to help with a little bit of that 67 00:03:56,010 --> 00:03:57,160 stability or frontal plane mechanics? 68 00:03:57,169 --> 00:03:59,801 Or is there a certain part that seems to be a little bit more 69 00:03:59,801 --> 00:04:02,369 than the rest of it? I mean, obviously, depending on 70 00:04:02,369 --> 00:04:06,045 your gait and your running style, but especially when you 71 00:04:06,045 --> 00:04:10,845 transition throughout the entire foot, we've really seen that we 72 00:04:10,845 --> 00:04:14,544 can almost frame the foot strike, so it's really soft and 73 00:04:14,544 --> 00:04:18,163 compliant, and we see this also by receiving 9% more energy 74 00:04:18,163 --> 00:04:21,543 return throughout the entire shoe, which is massive, by also 75 00:04:21,543 --> 00:04:25,279 lowering the weight by 12%, so we're coming in at 177 grams, 76 00:04:25,700 --> 00:04:28,095 which is, I actually don't know what that is in ounces, to be 77 00:04:28,095 --> 00:04:29,751 honest. I need to quickly add them up in 78 00:04:29,751 --> 00:04:33,152 my head, but I think that's going to be okay. but also then 79 00:04:33,152 --> 00:04:37,030 really helping the runner to feel more stability throughout 80 00:04:37,030 --> 00:04:40,982 the entire race which is a key difference maker, and especially 81 00:04:40,982 --> 00:04:44,828 when we test it with our athletes when they do their long 82 00:04:44,828 --> 00:04:48,667 runs, they talk a lot about support and stability, and this 83 00:04:48,667 --> 00:04:52,537 is something that made us think okay, how can we improve from 84 00:04:52,537 --> 00:04:56,565 the Pro 4 to the Pro 5? Yes, we want it to be lighter, 85 00:04:56,565 --> 00:05:00,247 yes, we We wanted to have greater energy return, but we 86 00:05:00,247 --> 00:05:02,299 also wanted to provide greater comfort. 87 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,921 And greater comfort, fundamentally, towards the last 88 00:05:04,921 --> 00:05:07,399 third of the marathon, means more stability. 89 00:05:07,959 --> 00:05:10,283 That's towards the tooling and towards the engine, but also 90 00:05:10,283 --> 00:05:13,299 when we talk later a little bit more around the upper as well, 91 00:05:13,459 --> 00:05:15,897 one of the guiding principles that we wanted to bring into the 92 00:05:15,897 --> 00:05:17,305 shoe. Yeah. 93 00:05:17,305 --> 00:05:20,755 Now, what does, other than looking really cool, because I 94 00:05:20,755 --> 00:05:24,530 noticed in the posterior side, The plate, the bottom part is a 95 00:05:24,530 --> 00:05:27,200 little reflective and you can see Adizero that reflects up. 96 00:05:27,399 --> 00:05:30,126 Is there any biomechanical purpose to having that plate 97 00:05:30,126 --> 00:05:33,748 extend back beyond the foot? No, it's what we really wanted 98 00:05:33,748 --> 00:05:36,839 to do is have a bit more stability when you come in. 99 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,728 And obviously we want to exaggerate this, but most 100 00:05:39,728 --> 00:05:42,839 importantly, we also wanted to enhance the identity of that 101 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,260 shoe and make sure we connected with the Pro Evo 3. 102 00:05:46,739 --> 00:05:49,687 So I'm sure people really see the connectivity coming from the 103 00:05:49,687 --> 00:05:54,050 Pro Evo 3 into the Pro 5. And when we think about running 104 00:05:54,050 --> 00:05:57,731 economy and all the elements that make a super shoe, this 105 00:05:57,731 --> 00:06:00,927 super shoe, this is really just something where we felt, okay, 106 00:06:00,927 --> 00:06:02,619 we can extend the heel a little bit. 107 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,214 When you come in more towards the heel, if you're not mid to 108 00:06:06,214 --> 00:06:08,600 forefoot striker, it gives you a little bit of extra stability. 109 00:06:09,359 --> 00:06:12,039 But more than anything, it's really drafting off the identity 110 00:06:12,039 --> 00:06:14,446 that we have established with the Pro Evo 3. 111 00:06:14,446 --> 00:06:16,759 Got it. And so I know that the geometry 112 00:06:16,759 --> 00:06:19,299 of the shoe kind of changed a little bit, where it almost 113 00:06:19,299 --> 00:06:21,359 seems like things kind of shifted back a little bit. 114 00:06:21,500 --> 00:06:25,316 The forefoot rocker, correct me if I'm wrong, has felt like a 115 00:06:25,316 --> 00:06:27,666 little bit smoother, a little bit longer. 116 00:06:27,666 --> 00:06:29,535 There's a little bit more posterior flare. 117 00:06:29,535 --> 00:06:32,497 You mentioned that again, the little extension here was kind 118 00:06:32,497 --> 00:06:36,968 of a nod to the Adios Pro Evo 3, but is there any other like 119 00:06:36,968 --> 00:06:40,529 major sagittal plane or front to back geometry changes that 120 00:06:40,529 --> 00:06:43,182 occurred maybe because of the plate redesign? 121 00:06:43,182 --> 00:06:45,437 What happened? Because it looks different. 122 00:06:45,437 --> 00:06:50,138 There are some small tweaks, but when you cut the shoe in half 123 00:06:50,138 --> 00:06:54,705 and compare it to a Pro 4, the rocker point still sits at 60, 124 00:06:54,705 --> 00:06:58,774 and the radius of the rocker is still exactly the same as what 125 00:06:58,774 --> 00:07:02,029 we have on Pro 4, but we have done two things to really 126 00:07:02,029 --> 00:07:05,790 enhance the ride and make it a bit more supportive. 127 00:07:05,790 --> 00:07:09,868 We have closed this area on the midfoot, so especially as you 128 00:07:09,868 --> 00:07:13,358 transition through your gait cycle, so here in the midfoot 129 00:07:13,358 --> 00:07:18,115 area when you're mid to forefoot striker This is for some the 130 00:07:18,115 --> 00:07:21,945 first point of contact. So we widened that space almost. 131 00:07:21,945 --> 00:07:26,158 And what we've also done is we've used different versions of 132 00:07:26,158 --> 00:07:30,858 Lightstrike Pro between our top layer and our bottom layer. and 133 00:07:30,858 --> 00:07:35,014 our bottom layer is slightly firmer or less soft, I should 134 00:07:35,014 --> 00:07:40,568 say, than our top layer. That helps us to create this 135 00:07:40,568 --> 00:07:44,094 perceived stability underfoot, which was very well perceived 136 00:07:44,094 --> 00:07:46,210 from all athletes and runners out there. 137 00:07:46,210 --> 00:07:50,115 That has to be far. Yeah, I can confirm it 138 00:07:50,115 --> 00:07:52,579 definitely feels a little bit more stable than version 4, 139 00:07:52,619 --> 00:07:55,500 which I liked version 4 as long as I stayed in a straight line. 140 00:07:56,019 --> 00:07:58,239 Version 5 has definitely been a little bit better for that, 141 00:07:58,380 --> 00:08:01,482 Although I'm not the best person given the amount of frontal 142 00:08:01,482 --> 00:08:04,297 plane motion I have can definitely overextend a lot of 143 00:08:04,297 --> 00:08:06,765 different shoes. What you've probably also felt 144 00:08:06,765 --> 00:08:09,582 is that we've changed the drop in the shoe. 145 00:08:09,582 --> 00:08:12,395 Yes. We've come in, we are now at 39 146 00:08:12,395 --> 00:08:14,495 and 35. So we have a four millimeter 147 00:08:14,495 --> 00:08:17,580 drop. Whereas on the Pro 4, we had a 148 00:08:17,580 --> 00:08:20,880 six millimeter drop, which makes a huge difference for us and 149 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,880 what you also feel throughout the gait cycle as well. 150 00:08:24,700 --> 00:08:27,040 And was that decision, what informed that decision? 151 00:08:27,420 --> 00:08:29,856 Because again, the 39 millimeters is staying 152 00:08:29,856 --> 00:08:31,938 approximately the same from version 4. 153 00:08:31,938 --> 00:08:34,020 You're adding more to the forefoot. 154 00:08:34,179 --> 00:08:36,179 What kind of, what drove that decision? 155 00:08:36,969 --> 00:08:41,193 I mean, we have learned as we explored around the Evo 3 that 156 00:08:41,193 --> 00:08:44,509 more foam is mostly, I'm saying mostly, you know, runners are 157 00:08:44,509 --> 00:08:46,678 different, and every gait is different, and people respond 158 00:08:46,678 --> 00:08:48,500 differently also to different geometries. 159 00:08:48,630 --> 00:08:53,963 But as a general statement, more foam under the metatarsal joints 160 00:08:53,963 --> 00:08:57,636 increased the energy return and increases the pop and therefore 161 00:08:57,636 --> 00:09:02,187 the propulsion forward, right? And this is why we really try to 162 00:09:02,187 --> 00:09:07,401 maximize the stack height that is still democratic enough that 163 00:09:07,401 --> 00:09:12,100 normal fast runners can run it because when you set everything 164 00:09:12,100 --> 00:09:15,907 towards the Evo 3 as a benchmark, this shoe is built 165 00:09:15,907 --> 00:09:17,741 for the absolute elite of the elite. 166 00:09:17,741 --> 00:09:21,234 So you need to take it into a more democratic version if you 167 00:09:21,234 --> 00:09:24,438 want to make sure you can still cater towards fast runners such 168 00:09:24,438 --> 00:09:27,788 as you, Matt. but at the end of the day, really making sure that 169 00:09:27,788 --> 00:09:30,059 we built the right product for the right use case. 170 00:09:31,380 --> 00:09:34,616 And that makes sense. I was a little bit nervous as 171 00:09:34,616 --> 00:09:37,180 someone with some Achilles tendon issues, which thankfully 172 00:09:37,180 --> 00:09:40,803 are doing quite well right now. But yeah, the 4mm drop 173 00:09:40,803 --> 00:09:44,595 definitely had me nervous, but it didn't actually feel that 174 00:09:44,595 --> 00:09:47,059 low, which was very interesting to me. 175 00:09:47,119 --> 00:09:49,622 And I'm wondering, is that something, feedback you've also 176 00:09:49,622 --> 00:09:51,144 gotten? Because it didn't feel as 177 00:09:51,144 --> 00:09:53,099 different as I was expecting from version 4. 178 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:58,098 And I think this is where the sum of its parts come together, 179 00:09:58,098 --> 00:10:00,890 right? Where if you take the drop up, 180 00:10:00,890 --> 00:10:04,380 everything gets super soft and super unstable, it creates more 181 00:10:04,380 --> 00:10:06,125 loading for your Achilles, right? 182 00:10:06,125 --> 00:10:10,313 But through the rim, through the bottom plate that is ever so 183 00:10:10,313 --> 00:10:14,152 slightly firmer, we can balance that out as a holistic system 184 00:10:14,152 --> 00:10:17,642 and can therefore create, we believe, a really good racing 185 00:10:17,642 --> 00:10:19,195 experience underfoot. Yep. 186 00:10:19,195 --> 00:10:22,255 I think another thing that also helps is, and I don't normally 187 00:10:22,255 --> 00:10:26,080 like this, so I was going to get on you and be like, hey, why'd 188 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,630 you do this? And I have to admit that there 189 00:10:28,630 --> 00:10:31,435 is a purpose for everything, that a little bit of the 190 00:10:31,435 --> 00:10:34,240 posterior flare actually makes the drop feel just a little bit 191 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,300 higher enough to offset where, yeah, I do have to admit that 192 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:40,105 when you have the plate posterior and a little bit here, 193 00:10:40,105 --> 00:10:43,165 things don't compress nearly as much in the rear foot, which is, 194 00:10:43,165 --> 00:10:46,225 I guess, good, correct me if I'm wrong, from a racing experience, 195 00:10:46,225 --> 00:10:48,277 right? You want people to be able to 196 00:10:48,277 --> 00:10:51,289 transition forward, but it also makes the shoe not feel as low 197 00:10:51,289 --> 00:10:54,539 drop while also still being able to have a little extra foam in 198 00:10:54,539 --> 00:10:57,429 the forefoot. And especially if you have 199 00:10:57,429 --> 00:11:01,191 someone that is maybe less of a midfoot, forefoot runner and 200 00:11:01,191 --> 00:11:04,610 everybody, even our top athletes tend to land more backwards 201 00:11:04,610 --> 00:11:07,679 towards the second or last third of the marathon. 202 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,850 If you get them through the landing into midfoot and 203 00:11:11,850 --> 00:11:14,767 forefoot quicker, obviously it's beneficial from a running 204 00:11:14,767 --> 00:11:17,679 economy standpoint, but overall for the running experience. 205 00:11:17,859 --> 00:11:20,232 So this obviously helps what you just described. 206 00:11:20,232 --> 00:11:23,488 Yep, that makes sense. I'm going to go off kilter a 207 00:11:23,488 --> 00:11:28,505 little bit. How did you do anything for the 208 00:11:28,505 --> 00:11:31,978 outsole traction? I'm really curious because I am 209 00:11:31,978 --> 00:11:35,198 loving light traction. Just the durability has been so 210 00:11:35,198 --> 00:11:37,178 good. And the grip is actually really 211 00:11:37,178 --> 00:11:39,738 good. Again, that first Evo Pro 1, I 212 00:11:39,738 --> 00:11:43,599 was like, ah, there's no way this thing is going to grip the 213 00:11:43,599 --> 00:11:45,080 ground. But then it has. 214 00:11:45,219 --> 00:11:47,710 And so I'm curious, like, what lessons, what thoughts did you 215 00:11:47,710 --> 00:11:50,935 have going into the outsole? I think, obviously, and you know 216 00:11:50,935 --> 00:11:53,235 this, right? Between when it comes to 217 00:11:53,235 --> 00:11:55,493 traction, there's always a trade-off between traction and 218 00:11:55,493 --> 00:11:59,159 weight that you're adding to the shoe at the end of the day. 219 00:11:59,580 --> 00:12:03,888 And this is why we believe if by engineering light traction and 220 00:12:03,888 --> 00:12:06,760 Continental rubber, we find the perfect balance between 221 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:11,068 providing the perfect grip in dry and wet with Conti in the 222 00:12:11,068 --> 00:12:15,017 toe area, especially where you toe off, where you push through 223 00:12:15,017 --> 00:12:18,248 at the last point of acceleration, but across the 224 00:12:18,248 --> 00:12:21,838 entire foot and throughout the entire ride with light traction 225 00:12:21,838 --> 00:12:25,787 and the pattern that we have engineered, we find the perfect 226 00:12:25,787 --> 00:12:29,223 mix where lightweight and traction can come together. and 227 00:12:29,223 --> 00:12:32,652 dry and wet surfaces because it's always easy to engineer 228 00:12:32,652 --> 00:12:36,027 traction and dry surfaces. I'm saying easy, but it's less 229 00:12:36,027 --> 00:12:38,245 complicated. But when it gets wet, it gets 230 00:12:38,245 --> 00:12:40,819 really hard. And therefore, the combination 231 00:12:40,819 --> 00:12:44,855 of compound pattern and engineering with different foam 232 00:12:44,855 --> 00:12:47,739 ingredients is something that we're actually pretty proud of. 233 00:12:47,900 --> 00:12:52,551 And as you say, we believe we've landed in a fairly decent spot 234 00:12:52,551 --> 00:12:55,894 from the experience that we've had testing with athletes and 235 00:12:55,894 --> 00:12:59,359 also with the vast majority of runners out there so far. 236 00:13:00,380 --> 00:13:03,162 Yeah, this is one of the few racing outsoles that I have yet 237 00:13:03,162 --> 00:13:06,391 to be able to destroy, and that was the case in version four, 238 00:13:06,391 --> 00:13:10,132 and thus far, about 30 miles in on this shoe, I'm like, yeah, 239 00:13:10,132 --> 00:13:12,795 there's no wear. It also helps there's nothing 240 00:13:12,795 --> 00:13:16,962 for me to catch and rip off with my weird heel strike I'm curious 241 00:13:16,962 --> 00:13:20,999 because a lot of companies do love to cut out that midfoot, or 242 00:13:20,999 --> 00:13:24,749 like have that section missing. Yet Adidas has kept that full 243 00:13:24,749 --> 00:13:28,299 length, which I think is great because I'm assuming it's 244 00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:31,234 because the material's so light it doesn't affect bending 245 00:13:31,234 --> 00:13:35,047 stiffness as much, or was that the purpose What, what made you 246 00:13:35,047 --> 00:13:38,063 go the full length when a lot of people cut out the midfoot? 247 00:13:38,063 --> 00:13:42,033 I think a lot of people cut out the midfoot to reduce weight. 248 00:13:42,033 --> 00:13:46,424 What we are learning more and more is that weight is just one 249 00:13:46,424 --> 00:13:50,288 component in the puzzle piece if you try to create the perfect 250 00:13:50,288 --> 00:13:53,776 super shoe, if you will, right? I'm giving you a simple example. 251 00:13:53,776 --> 00:13:57,768 Pro Evo 3, we could have made even lighter, but the running 252 00:13:57,768 --> 00:13:59,583 experience would have been horrible. 253 00:13:59,583 --> 00:14:03,295 So we've tried to optimize stiffness, weight, support, and 254 00:14:03,295 --> 00:14:07,026 energy return into a package to maximize running economy 255 00:14:07,026 --> 00:14:10,307 benefit. And I think this is also, this 256 00:14:10,307 --> 00:14:13,154 thinking has influenced Pro5, where we're like, what are the 257 00:14:13,154 --> 00:14:16,687 areas where we need to keep the integrity of the platform to 258 00:14:16,687 --> 00:14:21,050 ensure max energy return, max comfort and stability, which is 259 00:14:21,050 --> 00:14:24,295 still, in our opinion, very, very important from how we build 260 00:14:24,295 --> 00:14:27,040 and construct you. And then build around those 261 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,280 ideas. And I think this is why we 262 00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:33,571 believe it is better to keep the integrity of the engine, of the 263 00:14:33,571 --> 00:14:36,760 platform for a smoother, more natural transition. 264 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:41,218 And if you look back in the history of our racing, of our 265 00:14:41,218 --> 00:14:43,500 super shoes, there were shoes with cutouts, right? 266 00:14:43,619 --> 00:14:47,504 And we have learned along the process that we want to enhance 267 00:14:47,504 --> 00:14:51,336 that experience of the foam. And as foam progresses and also 268 00:14:51,336 --> 00:14:55,142 as, I wanted to say cooking methods, but methods of making 269 00:14:55,142 --> 00:14:59,290 around the foam evolve, we get smart of how we can engineer 270 00:14:59,290 --> 00:15:03,430 this as well to really cater towards what we believe is the 271 00:15:03,430 --> 00:15:05,500 best running experience for race day. 272 00:15:06,599 --> 00:15:10,463 Yeah, I do appreciate that your racing shoes do have not only 273 00:15:10,463 --> 00:15:14,000 the full ground contact, but they also have the full midsole. 274 00:15:14,179 --> 00:15:16,020 As you said, there's not as many cutouts. 275 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,799 And I think that's important because, yes, a shoe can 276 00:15:19,799 --> 00:15:23,723 function when it's brand new a certain way, but that's not how 277 00:15:23,723 --> 00:15:26,993 it's going to function over a marathon distance or over 278 00:15:26,993 --> 00:15:28,644 training. You know, we, you know, 279 00:15:28,644 --> 00:15:31,204 typically before someone gets a shoe out for a marathon, you 280 00:15:31,204 --> 00:15:34,452 want to have a couple of miles on it to make sure you're used 281 00:15:34,452 --> 00:15:37,650 to it's broken in. But can you talk a little bit 282 00:15:37,650 --> 00:15:40,140 about filling that in the gaps? Is that maintaining integrity? 283 00:15:40,820 --> 00:15:43,380 How does that impact the longevity of the shoe? 284 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:45,898 Because I know your elite athletes and a lot of your 285 00:15:45,898 --> 00:15:48,502 runners, your testers are going to be getting tons of miles in 286 00:15:48,502 --> 00:15:50,635 that. People don't always talk about 287 00:15:50,635 --> 00:15:52,672 how a shoe functions over the lifespan. 288 00:15:52,672 --> 00:15:55,000 What have you learned about that, if anything? 289 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:59,582 I mean, for us, Pro 4 and Pro 5 are the most tested and 290 00:15:59,582 --> 00:16:02,039 validated shoes that we probably have in the building. 291 00:16:02,409 --> 00:16:05,750 And it always starts with very basic mechanical testing on a 292 00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:07,804 component level, right? So you test the foam. 293 00:16:07,804 --> 00:16:09,166 Is it softer? Is it lighter? 294 00:16:09,166 --> 00:16:11,200 Has it more energy return? Is it more resilient? 295 00:16:11,719 --> 00:16:15,346 And then you simulate that into a shoe and then you actually do 296 00:16:15,346 --> 00:16:18,691 a lot of lab testing with the athletes where you look into 297 00:16:18,691 --> 00:16:20,359 biomechanics, where we look into physiology. 298 00:16:20,969 --> 00:16:25,336 And then but you also do that in field testing that we do here in 299 00:16:25,336 --> 00:16:29,119 Germany, but also then in Kenya and Ethiopia and in the U.S. to 300 00:16:29,119 --> 00:16:32,029 understand how it feels in the natural surrounding, if you 301 00:16:32,029 --> 00:16:34,986 will. And then it's going to be very 302 00:16:34,986 --> 00:16:38,517 important for us that we take all those insights, bits and 303 00:16:38,517 --> 00:16:42,039 pieces and come back and build the best running experience that 304 00:16:42,039 --> 00:16:44,599 we can, because fundamentally innovation is an iterative 305 00:16:44,599 --> 00:16:48,085 process. And I think very few people only 306 00:16:48,085 --> 00:16:51,565 talk about the aspect of building, testing, learning, 307 00:16:51,565 --> 00:16:53,951 redoing. And this is something that is 308 00:16:53,951 --> 00:16:57,143 very important for us as we, with projects like this, try to 309 00:16:57,143 --> 00:17:01,081 build the best for the athlete, that we take all the learnings 310 00:17:01,081 --> 00:17:04,800 that we have over the years of Adizero and that we have from 311 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:09,859 Pro Evo 3 and build this into the Pro 5, which is the best yet 312 00:17:09,859 --> 00:17:14,839 most democratic super shoe that we can build at this moment in 313 00:17:14,839 --> 00:17:16,500 time. That makes sense. 314 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,327 Now, have you noticed when you talk about filling in the gaps, 315 00:17:19,327 --> 00:17:22,455 like maintaining the integrity, you know, the filling in the 316 00:17:22,455 --> 00:17:25,660 midfoot gap, having a full length light traction outsole, 317 00:17:26,858 --> 00:17:30,155 do you know or is that something you tested to go, does that 318 00:17:30,155 --> 00:17:32,980 impact the longevity of the shoe at all or is that not something 319 00:17:32,980 --> 00:17:34,640 that you've been able to take a look at? 320 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,460 I think it's very clear and we know that from experience that 321 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:42,730 if you have a light traction or a rubber or any type of outsole, 322 00:17:42,730 --> 00:17:46,695 if you will, and you put mileage on it, obviously the super foams 323 00:17:46,695 --> 00:17:50,355 have less of an abrasion than any compound that you put on 324 00:17:50,355 --> 00:17:53,210 top. So in areas where you don't have 325 00:17:53,210 --> 00:17:56,383 any rubber or any other compound, obviously this will 326 00:17:56,383 --> 00:18:00,752 wear off more. But this is why we also bring in 327 00:18:00,752 --> 00:18:03,496 more in order to enhance durability, enhance the 328 00:18:03,496 --> 00:18:06,344 performance. And I think one other aspect 329 00:18:06,344 --> 00:18:10,777 that people need to think about is whenever you remove the 330 00:18:10,777 --> 00:18:14,795 outsole, you create shearing forces and mechanical cushioning 331 00:18:14,795 --> 00:18:17,580 where the foam can move. Right. 332 00:18:17,580 --> 00:18:21,099 And we also going back to having a smooth underfoot experience. 333 00:18:21,859 --> 00:18:26,997 If you keep this as one ride, it helps us almost to guide the 334 00:18:26,997 --> 00:18:30,300 foam along as you transition through the gait cycle. 335 00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:34,595 So it's also a good tool for us to not change, but also to 336 00:18:34,595 --> 00:18:38,573 influence in some way, shape or form how the foam can move, if 337 00:18:38,573 --> 00:18:41,939 you will, and where it can last a little bit longer. 338 00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:45,930 So would you say an outsole is also theoretically a stiffening 339 00:18:45,930 --> 00:18:49,864 agent that you can use like a plate you can use to how like 340 00:18:49,864 --> 00:18:52,674 how the foot transitions. The plate also controls to a 341 00:18:52,674 --> 00:18:55,203 degree the foam. The outsole does the same thing. 342 00:18:55,203 --> 00:18:58,013 And I've been I've been mentioning this, but I've never 343 00:18:58,013 --> 00:19:00,823 confirmed this with somebody in the industry, whether that was 344 00:19:00,823 --> 00:19:03,352 true or not. So I'm hearing, yes, you can 345 00:19:03,352 --> 00:19:06,439 totally use that to control how the foam deforms, where things 346 00:19:06,439 --> 00:19:08,607 go. Not really. 347 00:19:08,607 --> 00:19:09,739 Not really. Not really. 348 00:19:10,030 --> 00:19:15,799 What you can do is if you remove the outsole and you cut through 349 00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:20,386 the foam, then the foam can splay into that hollow area. 350 00:19:20,386 --> 00:19:25,069 But this is a full length platform and the foam is still 351 00:19:25,069 --> 00:19:29,357 in. Here you see the light traction 352 00:19:29,357 --> 00:19:31,963 outsole. This is a very fragile, very, 353 00:19:31,963 --> 00:19:35,750 very fragile piece. This will not help you to really 354 00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:38,707 guide it. On top of this, this would speak 355 00:19:38,707 --> 00:19:40,979 against the world athletic regulations since you're only 356 00:19:41,069 --> 00:19:43,400 allowed to have one stiffening agent in your footwear. 357 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,667 So this is why we're very, very careful to ensure that this is 358 00:19:46,667 --> 00:19:48,579 not the case. Ah, so that makes sense. 359 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,726 So maybe in like a daily trainer where you have a lot more 360 00:19:52,726 --> 00:19:55,140 outside material that might inadvertently act like that. 361 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:59,336 Yet for here, it's more the fact that the foam's filled in rather 362 00:19:59,336 --> 00:20:03,050 than having a gap where things will expand and have extra room 363 00:20:03,050 --> 00:20:05,030 is where what you're talking about. 364 00:20:05,030 --> 00:20:06,020 Exactly. Got it. 365 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,550 We had shoes in the past when you think about the Primack, or 366 00:20:09,550 --> 00:20:12,943 we have, it's the Primack's for instance that has multiple 367 00:20:12,943 --> 00:20:17,223 plates, multiple layers, where we see a benefit in creating 368 00:20:17,223 --> 00:20:20,530 that system. But obviously for our racing 369 00:20:20,530 --> 00:20:23,650 shoes, they need to adhere to the regulations. 370 00:20:23,650 --> 00:20:26,380 Hence, we're not doing this. Got it. 371 00:20:26,619 --> 00:20:28,451 That makes sense. You got to be a little careful 372 00:20:28,451 --> 00:20:29,000 with that. Yep. 373 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,939 What has been the overall athlete feedback on this shoe? 374 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,272 Because again, when you design something, it's always 375 00:20:35,272 --> 00:20:37,468 interesting where, okay, here's what we want. 376 00:20:37,468 --> 00:20:39,828 And sometimes people agree and they have that same perception. 377 00:20:39,828 --> 00:20:41,200 Sometimes they have a different perception. 378 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:42,995 What has been the feedback on this shoe? 379 00:20:42,995 --> 00:20:45,764 I mean, the feedback so far has been really, really positive. 380 00:20:45,764 --> 00:20:49,105 As I said, it's been the most tested shoe that we have built 381 00:20:49,105 --> 00:20:51,668 so far. And what next to the elements 382 00:20:51,668 --> 00:20:54,378 around the engine that I've spoken about, what they also 383 00:20:54,378 --> 00:20:56,568 really like and really appreciate is the upper and the 384 00:20:56,568 --> 00:20:59,397 new fit that we have created. So we're using this lightweight 385 00:20:59,397 --> 00:21:01,623 woven with a light lock upper technology. 386 00:21:01,623 --> 00:21:05,272 So it really helps us to create a holistic, lightweight fit 387 00:21:05,272 --> 00:21:07,452 system. And what they really, really 388 00:21:07,452 --> 00:21:10,719 like is the new heel construction that we've built, 389 00:21:11,140 --> 00:21:14,258 which is probably the perfect balance of lightweight, comfort, 390 00:21:14,258 --> 00:21:16,680 support that we have built so far. 391 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,800 And I think all the racing shoes, especially around the 392 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,797 Achilles area, which is a very fragile area, if you will, 393 00:21:24,797 --> 00:21:27,955 right? Really, really like the 394 00:21:27,955 --> 00:21:31,234 cushioning and the support that we've built in, but in a super 395 00:21:31,234 --> 00:21:33,570 lightweight way. So this really was something 396 00:21:33,570 --> 00:21:35,880 that stood out over the general feedback. 397 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:39,899 What they also feel is that the gusset construction we have 398 00:21:39,899 --> 00:21:43,573 built really helps them to create the sock-like fit, which 399 00:21:43,573 --> 00:21:47,079 they love, especially for race day, when it just is no frills. 400 00:21:47,089 --> 00:21:50,540 You put it on, you lace it up, and you know this very well. 401 00:21:50,619 --> 00:21:53,959 On race day, sometimes you end up relacing your shoe four times 402 00:21:53,959 --> 00:21:57,688 and it still doesn't feel right the first 5K and so on and so 403 00:21:57,688 --> 00:21:59,816 forth. They say, hey, you slip it on, 404 00:21:59,816 --> 00:22:02,520 you lace it once, And you have, it's go time. 405 00:22:02,819 --> 00:22:05,658 So I think this is probably the best feedback that we can get 406 00:22:05,658 --> 00:22:08,274 from the athletes where it doesn't become a, I need to do 407 00:22:08,274 --> 00:22:11,268 this or I need to do that. It's simply, hey, I can put it 408 00:22:11,268 --> 00:22:12,780 on, lace it up, and it's go time. 409 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,770 This is why I complain about gusseting all the time going, 410 00:22:16,770 --> 00:22:20,868 hey, this is just a basic thing. When you don't have this, you're 411 00:22:20,868 --> 00:22:24,312 just asking for that tongue to slip, yet the tongue sits really 412 00:22:24,312 --> 00:22:27,711 nicely. I was very nervous a little bit 413 00:22:27,711 --> 00:22:31,264 about that heel because the stiffness has increased a little 414 00:22:31,264 --> 00:22:32,753 bit. I'm like, oh, man, this is going 415 00:22:32,753 --> 00:22:35,023 to bother me. But I appreciate that the 416 00:22:35,023 --> 00:22:38,059 additional padding that you put put just high enough to avoid 417 00:22:38,059 --> 00:22:41,644 where the Achilles insertion is, which has been a massive problem 418 00:22:41,644 --> 00:22:44,514 in the industry because they keep putting either the padding 419 00:22:44,514 --> 00:22:47,958 or the curve of the upper right where the insertion of the 420 00:22:47,958 --> 00:22:51,160 Achilles tendon is, which is not a place that likes pressure. 421 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,188 For the listeners that don't know, Achilles tendons do not do 422 00:22:55,188 --> 00:22:57,276 well, actually, with compressive-type forces, and 423 00:22:57,276 --> 00:23:00,060 certainly not where it inserts on the bone. 424 00:23:00,199 --> 00:23:02,647 There's a lot of sensitivity in that area. 425 00:23:02,647 --> 00:23:05,553 So thanks for not doing that. I've actually been able to run 426 00:23:05,553 --> 00:23:06,819 in the shoe, and it didn't bother me. 427 00:23:07,300 --> 00:23:10,717 But did you have to mess with the padding, how high that was, 428 00:23:10,717 --> 00:23:13,599 or was that off the gate? You're pretty good with that. 429 00:23:13,989 --> 00:23:17,590 I think if you go from the history of our super shoes from 430 00:23:17,590 --> 00:23:21,180 Pro 1 to Pro 5 now, I think we had pretty good learnings. 431 00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:24,390 I would say on what to do and how to optimize it. 432 00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:27,239 And then we've applied all those learnings into the Pro 5. 433 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:31,599 So we have six years of learning now going into this. 434 00:23:31,619 --> 00:23:35,090 And this is why we believe we have found a pretty good sweet 435 00:23:35,090 --> 00:23:38,883 spot on how high the padding is, but also how thick the padding 436 00:23:38,883 --> 00:23:40,654 is. I think that's also a nuance 437 00:23:40,654 --> 00:23:43,000 within that. So it keeps your Achilles away 438 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,812 from the edge or the collar. And this makes it then really 439 00:23:46,812 --> 00:23:50,550 something where you have great fit, a very dynamic design still 440 00:23:50,550 --> 00:23:54,488 because a heel can also very quickly look bulbous, but then 441 00:23:54,488 --> 00:23:58,208 also function very well. And I think this is where the 442 00:23:58,208 --> 00:24:01,124 two elements of perfection in design and perfection in 443 00:24:01,124 --> 00:24:06,077 engineering can come together. Yeah, I did not know Chris, who 444 00:24:06,077 --> 00:24:09,530 I have gotten to run with, mentioned that, you know, design 445 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:12,763 of the bulbousness of a heel, like some of the visual elements 446 00:24:12,763 --> 00:24:15,709 you wouldn't think of can affect whether people actually choose a 447 00:24:15,709 --> 00:24:18,842 shoe or not. And so you have to think about, 448 00:24:18,842 --> 00:24:21,080 okay, what's the economy, what's the efficiency, what's comfort, 449 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,056 but then also go, hey, if this looks weird, people aren't going 450 00:24:24,056 --> 00:24:25,922 to buy this. And that's interesting because 451 00:24:25,922 --> 00:24:28,154 that's not something I'm normally thinking about, but I'm 452 00:24:28,154 --> 00:24:31,828 hearing, hey, you have to pay attention to that. 100%. 453 00:24:31,828 --> 00:24:36,419 I think it's very funny because we all get very hung up on like 454 00:24:36,419 --> 00:24:39,932 the KPIs, right? Yeah, the shoe is 177 grams, has 455 00:24:39,932 --> 00:24:43,964 9% more energy return, more running economy and so on and so 456 00:24:43,964 --> 00:24:46,280 forth. But there is a component of step 457 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:48,642 in comfort. If you don't step in the shoe 458 00:24:48,642 --> 00:24:51,000 and you don't love it, you won't buy it. 459 00:24:51,439 --> 00:24:54,089 And the same is if you look at the shoe and you're not 460 00:24:54,089 --> 00:24:56,119 attracted to it, you're also not going to buy it. 461 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,369 So there is a clear principle for us of how things need to 462 00:24:59,369 --> 00:25:01,715 work. But then also how beautiful 463 00:25:01,715 --> 00:25:05,060 things have to look and bring those two worlds together. 464 00:25:05,979 --> 00:25:08,959 This is where the science and the art get combined. 465 00:25:09,660 --> 00:25:12,924 Yeah, I hear that is not an easy process because sometimes the 466 00:25:12,924 --> 00:25:15,640 science and the art departments do not agree on things. 467 00:25:15,979 --> 00:25:17,635 So that could be really challenging. 468 00:25:17,635 --> 00:25:20,385 We're doing it all for the athletes and for better 469 00:25:20,385 --> 00:25:21,890 performance. Yeah. 470 00:25:21,890 --> 00:25:24,639 So you mentioned that, hey, you've had six plus years to 471 00:25:24,639 --> 00:25:26,880 learn and be able to bring this thing together. 472 00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:30,977 Are there any big lessons you've learned from the process of the 473 00:25:30,977 --> 00:25:35,272 Adios Pro 5? I would say not specifically for 474 00:25:35,272 --> 00:25:39,086 the Pro 5, to be honest. For us, if we put the athlete 475 00:25:39,086 --> 00:25:41,939 and the runner at front and center of everything that we do 476 00:25:42,020 --> 00:25:44,762 and we continue to test, validate and see this as an 477 00:25:44,762 --> 00:25:48,199 iterative process, then I believe we're always going to be 478 00:25:48,199 --> 00:25:50,260 in the right track and on the right route. 479 00:25:50,319 --> 00:25:53,959 I think one thing that we've learned with Pro Evo 3 is we 480 00:25:53,959 --> 00:25:57,698 need to be very clear on what our North Star is and continue 481 00:25:57,698 --> 00:26:00,527 to drive that. That will help us to widen our 482 00:26:00,527 --> 00:26:02,719 vision for all the things that are actually possible. 483 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:07,590 And I think this is when Pro Evo 3, we had a moonshot brief that 484 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:10,649 we wanted to execute, increasing running economy while having a 485 00:26:10,649 --> 00:26:15,020 shoe that is sub 100 grams. And by doing this, we discovered 486 00:26:15,020 --> 00:26:19,670 so many things that we might not have used in the Pro Evo 3, but 487 00:26:19,670 --> 00:26:22,459 that have fueled what we do on Pro 5. 488 00:26:22,739 --> 00:26:25,178 And this is something that mindset and mentality is 489 00:26:25,178 --> 00:26:27,880 something that we want to keep building on moving forward. 490 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:33,254 And it's probably one of the key areas that we took away from the 491 00:26:33,254 --> 00:26:35,159 process. Yeah, the weight drop, 492 00:26:35,159 --> 00:26:37,464 especially. So for the listeners and viewers 493 00:26:37,464 --> 00:26:40,799 that don't do the metric system, as someone in the biomechanics 494 00:26:40,799 --> 00:26:42,920 world, I only use the metric system. 495 00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:45,719 So sometimes I forget, like, oh, we're not writing a review. 496 00:26:45,719 --> 00:26:47,399 I'm like, I need to convert this. 497 00:26:47,399 --> 00:26:50,748 That's about 6.2 ounces. So that dropped a significant 498 00:26:50,748 --> 00:26:53,764 amount of weight. And again, kudos to you on to be 499 00:26:53,764 --> 00:26:55,456 able to go, hey, can we modify the plate? 500 00:26:55,456 --> 00:26:56,959 Can we modify all this kind of stuff? 501 00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:00,578 Because, yeah, it is one piece. It's not the only piece, but 502 00:27:00,578 --> 00:27:02,040 weight does make a big difference. 503 00:27:02,209 --> 00:27:04,915 But as you said, you have to balance that with comfort 504 00:27:04,915 --> 00:27:07,610 because you don't want to be wearing something for 26.2 miles 505 00:27:07,610 --> 00:27:10,305 or however long that feels awful because then your comfort plays 506 00:27:10,305 --> 00:27:13,000 a big role in how you're going to finish or not. 507 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:18,446 But it makes sense that a lot of this is coming from the Pro. 508 00:27:18,446 --> 00:27:22,280 I keep mixing up the Evo. I can't do this right. 509 00:27:22,380 --> 00:27:25,050 And BJ made fun of me for like a year. 510 00:27:25,050 --> 00:27:27,448 Evo Pro 3, Pro Evo 3. Pro Evo 3. 511 00:27:27,448 --> 00:27:30,640 You can just refer to it as Evo 3 and Pro 5. 512 00:27:30,949 --> 00:27:33,199 I think that's the simplest way. That's much easier. 513 00:27:33,199 --> 00:27:35,699 Yeah, so Evo 3. So a lot of lessons happened 514 00:27:35,699 --> 00:27:39,534 from the Evo 3 that have now moved into a lot of the other 515 00:27:39,534 --> 00:27:41,249 shoes. So it's not, and I'm assuming 516 00:27:41,249 --> 00:27:44,090 it's not just the Pro 5. I'm sure you've taken those 517 00:27:44,090 --> 00:27:46,728 lessons to other shoes. I'm sure the Boston and others 518 00:27:46,728 --> 00:27:49,060 have also had lessons or influences from there, correct? 519 00:27:49,780 --> 00:27:52,585 Yeah, we won't disclose too much about the future rollout, but 520 00:27:52,585 --> 00:27:56,155 you can envision that a lot of the energy that we have spent on 521 00:27:56,155 --> 00:27:59,465 this project have a lot of influence on what we do down the 522 00:27:59,465 --> 00:28:00,276 line. Yes. 523 00:28:00,276 --> 00:28:03,034 Yeah, that makes sense. So, Stevan, thank you so much 524 00:28:03,034 --> 00:28:05,461 for coming on. Are there any really big last 525 00:28:05,461 --> 00:28:08,233 things you want our listeners and viewers to know about this? 526 00:28:08,233 --> 00:28:10,426 We've talked a lot. We've talked about, you know, 527 00:28:10,426 --> 00:28:13,078 the plate design is a really, really big thing coming from the 528 00:28:13,078 --> 00:28:17,124 Evo 3. being able to maintain that softness underfoot by 529 00:28:17,124 --> 00:28:20,613 having open plate, being able to influence frontal plane 530 00:28:20,613 --> 00:28:23,134 stability, especially over those longer distances. 531 00:28:23,134 --> 00:28:26,439 And as we've mentioned before, and you mentioned that, yeah, 532 00:28:26,579 --> 00:28:30,699 those later stages, people, all kinds of things fall apart. 533 00:28:30,819 --> 00:28:34,311 People start going backwards in where they, their initial 534 00:28:34,311 --> 00:28:37,363 contact point fatigue sets. And so being able to think about 535 00:28:37,363 --> 00:28:40,283 that and be able to maintain for that last 10K or however long is 536 00:28:40,283 --> 00:28:42,315 really important. We've talked about, hey, there's 537 00:28:42,315 --> 00:28:44,896 some small changes with the sagittal plane or front to back 538 00:28:44,896 --> 00:28:46,300 thing, especially with that heel design. 539 00:28:47,420 --> 00:28:48,524 We've talked about the heel opposite. 540 00:28:48,524 --> 00:28:51,350 We talked about the upper. And before I finish this 541 00:28:51,350 --> 00:28:54,542 question, I will say I was very impressed because I was nervous 542 00:28:54,542 --> 00:28:58,255 when I put this shoe on because I was like, wow, does this fit 543 00:28:58,255 --> 00:29:00,043 short? Should I be worried about that? 544 00:29:00,043 --> 00:29:02,599 But again, it's how the design is being able to fit close. 545 00:29:02,650 --> 00:29:05,900 And even over like 12 mile runs, I have not had any blistering, 546 00:29:05,900 --> 00:29:07,400 which has been really, really great. 547 00:29:07,579 --> 00:29:11,140 So I see the purpose trying to get things just right. 548 00:29:11,660 --> 00:29:13,759 Is there anything else you'd want our listeners and viewers 549 00:29:13,759 --> 00:29:15,640 to know about this shoe that makes it unique? 550 00:29:16,579 --> 00:29:18,982 We talked a lot. I think you've summarized it 551 00:29:18,982 --> 00:29:23,498 very well, Matt. I think for us, Pro 5 is the 552 00:29:23,498 --> 00:29:27,640 perfect combination of weight, support, energy return in a 553 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,385 super shoe. And I would just hope and ask 554 00:29:30,385 --> 00:29:33,080 the people to test it and experience it and then build 555 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:36,880 their own opinion of it. Yeah, I think you guys have done 556 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,529 a really, really good job. And again, excited to get more 557 00:29:39,529 --> 00:29:42,902 miles in this and drop a review and see what the public thinks 558 00:29:42,902 --> 00:29:45,205 as well. Because it's really, really nice 559 00:29:45,205 --> 00:29:49,099 to get shoes back to the super lightweight ways they were. 560 00:29:49,219 --> 00:29:52,519 Because I am old enough that, you know, I remember the Hagio 561 00:29:52,519 --> 00:29:56,334 and shoes like that. And then the Adizero PR back in 562 00:29:56,334 --> 00:30:01,302 the day where we had those sub, those low six, sub six, even sub 563 00:30:01,302 --> 00:30:03,780 five for a lot of different shoes. 564 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,789 So it's nice to get back there, but still maintaining the amount 565 00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:12,364 of cushion that we've kind of been spoiled by, which is 566 00:30:12,364 --> 00:30:15,254 really, really nice. So, yeah, I guess you can't 567 00:30:15,254 --> 00:30:18,323 really go any farther right now because getting shoes under 100 568 00:30:18,323 --> 00:30:21,087 grams is pretty intense. But, yeah. 569 00:30:21,087 --> 00:30:24,877 Or can you? Well, I think with 97 grams that 570 00:30:24,877 --> 00:30:28,429 we had right now on the Evo 3, we have also learned that this 571 00:30:28,429 --> 00:30:30,959 is a bit of the sweet spot that we're in. 572 00:30:31,020 --> 00:30:34,440 If you purely isolate weight, as I said earlier, we could have 573 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,195 built a lighter shoe. But then the sacrifices on 574 00:30:38,195 --> 00:30:42,106 stability, energy return, or overall comfort are just too 575 00:30:42,106 --> 00:30:45,788 high. So we do see that with being sub 576 00:30:45,788 --> 00:30:50,020 100 grams, we believe we have reached a sweet spot if you put 577 00:30:50,020 --> 00:30:53,595 that in relation to still building the fastest shoe in the 578 00:30:53,595 --> 00:30:55,988 industry. If it's just about building the 579 00:30:55,988 --> 00:30:58,940 lightest shoe, that's easy. But having that parallel system 580 00:30:58,940 --> 00:31:02,864 of the lightest shoe and the fastest shoe, we believe we have 581 00:31:02,864 --> 00:31:07,115 landed on a pretty good spot. And we are obviously on to the 582 00:31:07,115 --> 00:31:11,366 next already to understand what we can do and how we can unlock 583 00:31:11,366 --> 00:31:13,202 human performance. Yeah. 584 00:31:13,202 --> 00:31:17,128 So again, what I'm hearing as kind of a theme is balance is 585 00:31:17,128 --> 00:31:19,539 really important. Like there's a lot of things 586 00:31:19,539 --> 00:31:22,850 that go into developing a shoe, let alone a racing shoe. 587 00:31:22,850 --> 00:31:26,161 You have to have, you know, the transition, the frontal plane 588 00:31:26,161 --> 00:31:28,569 stability, obviously sagittal plane transition, the upper, how 589 00:31:28,569 --> 00:31:31,579 things fit, how the foam maintains, all that kind of 590 00:31:31,579 --> 00:31:33,495 stuff. And it sounds like you've 591 00:31:33,495 --> 00:31:36,445 learned a lot about balancing those very well at multiple 592 00:31:36,445 --> 00:31:40,279 levels, be it the Evo, the Pro, other shoes that you can't talk 593 00:31:40,279 --> 00:31:43,219 about yet that I'm also really excited for, especially Boston. 594 00:31:44,459 --> 00:31:46,565 So, yeah. Any other final thoughts? 595 00:31:46,565 --> 00:31:51,053 It was a lot of fun, Matt. I should be in the podcast with 596 00:31:51,053 --> 00:31:52,805 you and thank you for your time. Yeah. 597 00:31:52,805 --> 00:31:55,653 Thank you very, very much. And as always, you can find us 598 00:31:55,653 --> 00:31:58,073 on a variety of places. Stefan, do you necessarily want 599 00:31:58,073 --> 00:32:00,817 people to contact you? Is there a place that people 600 00:32:00,817 --> 00:32:04,213 should know, like, hey, this is where I know you're over in 601 00:32:04,213 --> 00:32:06,760 Germany, but any last any last things for you? 602 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,576 I think if there's any feedback at any point in time, people can 603 00:32:11,576 --> 00:32:14,359 always hit me up on social media or wherever they want to. 604 00:32:14,979 --> 00:32:17,989 I'm an open book, so feel free to reach out. 605 00:32:17,989 --> 00:32:20,397 Yeah, I think that's it, to be honest. 606 00:32:20,397 --> 00:32:21,299 That's it. Great. 607 00:32:21,299 --> 00:32:23,570 Awesome. And you can find us as always in 608 00:32:23,570 --> 00:32:26,236 a variety of different areas. Our main place is obviously our 609 00:32:26,236 --> 00:32:28,540 new redesigned website, which we're really, really proud of. 610 00:32:28,939 --> 00:32:31,725 But also, you may be doing this on any one of the podcast places 611 00:32:31,725 --> 00:32:33,700 you can find us. And we really appreciate you 612 00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:36,100 following along and being able to look at the art and the 613 00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:37,900 science of the things that was on our feet. 614 00:32:38,380 --> 00:32:41,376 Stefan, thank you so much again. We really appreciate your time 615 00:32:41,376 --> 00:32:43,280 early in the morning. Thank you, Matt. 616 00:32:43,369 --> 00:32:44,140 Have a wonderful day.