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Hello everyone and welcome to 
the Doctors Running Podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet at the round table. 
Today we have Dr. Andrea Myers 

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and myself. 
I'll be hosting. 

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I'm Nathan Brown, and we are 
going to be running through a 

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mailbag with your questions that
you've sent to us through e-mail

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and other platforms. 
We always get a ton of questions

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from you all, which is really 
kind for you to interact with 

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us, and we feel bad that we 
can't get to every single 

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question. 
But these mailbag episodes are a

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nice way for us to engage with 
you all in that way today. 

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We have a lot of interesting 
questions. 

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We have questions relating to 
some shoes that Andrea has 

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recently been testing, the 
Mizuno Neo Vista. 

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We're going to hit that review 
at the end based on the question

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that you asked. 
We're also going to be talking 

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about things related to super 
shoes, why they work, who 

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responds, how do you know if it 
lines up well for you and things

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like that? 
And then a couple other 

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questions from you as followers.
So for the subjective, for 

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today, because it's a mailbag 
day, we encourage you to drop 

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your questions on YouTube if 
you're watching that way. 

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Otherwise, you can send us an 
e-mail at 

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doctorsofrunning@gmail.com with 
your question for the mailbag. 

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Before we jump into the mailbag.
Andrea, I know that this is for 

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both of us recording on a 
Monday, which we like, never do,

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and one of the members of Dora 
special member is having a hard 

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time with the reality. 
So how's Peanut doing? 

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Peanut is good. 
She is sleeping right next to me

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here. 
She's not sure why we're doing 

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this at this time of day because
normally we do record in the 

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afternoon. 
So hopefully Peanut will not 

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make a guest appearance on the 
podcast, but just a warning, she

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might. 
She might, and maybe a lot of 

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people say, hopefully she will, 
You know, So are you. 

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Tell us a little bit about where
you're at in your running and 

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your training. 
Are you in a training block for 

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something? 
Are you? 

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What? 
What's kind of next for for you?

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Yeah, so I'm doing. 
I'm excited about what I'm doing

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this year. 
So the past two years I've 

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really been focused on marathon 
training, which has been fun but

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is definitely not like my 
strength in terms of running. 

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I was a 400 and an 800m runner 
when I was younger, so this year

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I'm really focusing on shorter 
distance races. 

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I did a 5K yesterday during a 
couple Rd. miles on Memorial 

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Day, so it's been fun to change 
up my training, to not do super 

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long runs on the weekend, and to
do a lot more faster running in 

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my training. 
So have fun, yeah yeah. 

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And I raced in the On Cloud Boom
E3 yesterday, which I have been 

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wanting to test that shoe in a 
5K ever since I got it last 

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year. 
I've got to say I really liked 

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it for the 5K distance. 
I told you guys yesterday that 

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it dethroned my longtime 
favorite Alpha fly one for that 

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distance. 
So I yeah, I'll definitely use 

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it again for 5K. 
What was it about it that you 

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loved for that distance and how 
was it different from because 

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they're pretty different shoes 
between the Alpha fly one and 

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this. 
So what? 

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What was it that you that you 
liked? 

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So I've loved Elf Fly one for 
basically anything half marathon

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on down, but it does feel a 
little. 

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I'm not going to say soft, but a
little too springy when I run 

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like 5K pacer faster and on 
cloud boom E3 just has the right

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firmness for 5K pace for me. 
So I'm not sure I would like 

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Cloud Boom E3 for like 1/2 
marathon, but I really liked it 

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for a 5K. 
Cool. 

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Well, that's great. 
Yeah. 

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And it went well yesterday. 
Yeah, I was first female and I 

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out sprinted another guy for 3rd
overall, which is always fun to 

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like actually be racing, so that
was cool. 

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A couple of my friends came out 
and did it too, so it was nice 

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to see them. 
You know, That's what running's 

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all about, is just community and
being with your friends. 

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So how about your? 
How is your running going? 

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You know, I've been thankful to,
still been running, be running, 

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probably going on two or three 
months now of some level of 

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running. 
And I've been a little over 10 

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miles the last, you know, 
handful of weeks. 

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So my foot is coming along. 
For those of you who don't know 

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about my foot injury, in the 
ligament tear from last year, 

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still just kind of slowly 
working my way back, I've 

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actually integrated some new 
exercises into my routine, like 

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for specifically for my flexor 
house, this longest tendon, and 

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those have made a pretty 
important difference in terms of

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my symptoms after running. 
Usually it feels fine during 

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running, so I'm trying to remain
patient because when you start 

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to feel better you're like maybe
I could and then I start to 

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insert different goals and I 
just, I need to hold back and 

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just keep, keep enjoying the 
time that I get out on the road,

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so. 
And you're also supplementing 

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your training with some cross 
training, right? 

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Yes, Yep, I'm doing. 
I've been I got sent the 

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elliptic go from elliptic go to 
test out and so that's honestly 

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been perfect timing. 
I had it all the way through the

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winter and then into part of the
spring. 

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So that's been a huge deal just 
having decreased impact and I 

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can put long efforts in on that 
thing, you know if I need to I 

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can go hours and heart rate gets
up and stuff. 

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So that's been that's been a 
win. 

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For sure and good to get outside
even when you can't run. 

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Yes, and it's not as awful as 
biking. 

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I know you like biking. 
Agree to disagree? 

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Well, let's jump into our 
mailbag. 

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We have a number of questions 
that we want to get to. 

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This first question is from 
Johnny sending in a question 

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about super shoes and plates. 
So he says this. 

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I have a question regarding 
super shoes and rockers. 

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You often mention that a plate 
and a rocker needs to align with

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your foot. 
What does this actually mean and

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what should I be looking for? 
And he gave us some background 

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that the reason he asked this is
he has noticed that when he's 

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wearing his heart rate strap and
he is staying in specific zones,

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he tends to actually run faster,
faster average paces in his 

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Novoblasts than he does in his 
Endorphin Pro 3. 

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So he's wondering, is that 
enough evidence to tell me that 

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I'm not working well with the 
Endorphin Pro 3 and I'm working 

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better with the Novoblast? 
Is he wondering if he should 

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choose a different super shoe or
if he's not a responder to 

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carbon plates? 
There's a lot of questions 

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embedded within there. 
But I think the first thing to 

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address is that initial question
is what does it really mean for 

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when we talk about a rocker and 
a plate lining up with your 

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foot? 
So that this is a really great 

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question I think is a good 
starting point for our episode 

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today where we're going to be 
talking a lot about super shoes 

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and plates and rockers. 
So the plate and the rocker are 

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two different things of course. 
So the rocker refers to that 

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upward turn of the midsole 
underneath the forefoot. 

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And so again there are two 
different things that can happen

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at the front of the shoe in 
terms of shoe geometry, a four 

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foot rocker which is just let me
grab a shoe here. 

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So here's the Mizuno Neo Vista 
which I'll talk about later. 

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But you can see how this part of
the shoe curves up from the 

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ground. 
That's the four foot rocker. 

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Now toe spring is here's the 
endorphin Pro 4. 

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You can see how the actual toe 
part of the shoe is curved up, 

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kind of like an elf shoe. 
That's what toe spring is. 

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This shoe also has a pretty 
severe 4 foot rocker, but you 

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can see how it also curves up at
the toes. 

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This is the toe spring. 
This is the four foot rocker. 

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Two different things, and they 
both need to align both with 

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your foot and your mechanics. 
So when it comes to 4 foot 

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rockers, research has found that
they're most effective when the 

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apex of the rocker starts just 
behind your first MTP joint. 

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Now what does that actually 
mean? 

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Your first MTP joint is the big 
joint at the base of your big 

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toe. 
So like the thickest part of the

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ball of your foot, that's your 
first MTP joint and when you're 

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running or walking, your first 
MTP joint has to bend to help 

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you push off. 
So you need that rocker to align

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properly to assist your first 
MTP joint in that push off 

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process. 
So let me grab the neo Vista 

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again. 
So basically because of the 

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rocker, it's going to assist you
in pushing off as compared to if

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this was filled in and you would
have to do more work on your own

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to achieve that toe off motion. 
Now if your first MTP joint 

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starts pretty far forward of the
rocker, which mine often does, 

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I've got relatively short toes 
in relation to the length of my 

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foot. 
For me, when the rocker starts 

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too far back, it actually feels 
like I can't have a natural 

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stride because it's pushing me 
into push off way too early, 

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especially because I land at my 
mid foot. 

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So it's basically like I land 
and then it's immediately making

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me push off. 
So for heel strikers, that's 

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that issue is a little bit less 
of a problem, but you still need

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to have the apex of the rocker 
start a little behind your first

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MTP joint. 
If it's not there, then it's not

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going to feel as fluid or as 
smooth in assisting you with 

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push off. 
So how can you know this without

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actually like 1 knowing where 
your first MTP joint is, but 

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two, actually trying the shoe on
in person? 

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You can't. 
You've really got to try on the 

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shoe, see where the rocker lines
up, but then the best way to 

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know is running it and you need 
to test that shoe out out to 

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feel how the geometry of the 
shoe, the foam, everything 

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aligns with your foot and your 
natural running style when it 

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comes to the well. 
Before we move on to the plate, 

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is there anything else you would
add about the rocker aligning 

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with your foot, Nate? 
No, I think those are really 

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good guidelines. 
I think a way that you could 

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practically do this if you're 
able to get into a running shoe 

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store is to, you know, put the 
shoe on in the store. 

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You know, look at where is the 
rocker leaving the ground and 

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then you know palpate or push on
where that big ball joint is the

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big ball of your foot and is 
that, is it already up off the 

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ground a little bit? 
If so, that means it's the 

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rocker is that apex is behind 
kind of where that big toe is. 

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But if it's still on the ground 
in front there you know that 

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it's a little bit too far out to
the front, just cuz that rocker 

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placement, if it's too far in 
front, you really got to fight 

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to get up onto the rocker. 
And I know I have that issue in 

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a couple of shoes like the meta 
speed sky I typically have a 

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hard time with because it's a 
little bit too far beyond my big

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toe joint. 
And then the other one is the, 

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Oh my gosh, Hoka, not this 
yellow Road X1 the Rocket X2 the

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Rocket X Twos is a little bit 
too far in front of my big toe 

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joint, so I think you hit it 
really well. 

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That's a really good tip, 
Nathan, to like actually just 

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palpate and look. 
And yeah, the best way to like 

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assess where the rocker starts 
is to have that shoe on a flat 

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surface. 
Because especially with shoes 

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that have a pretty significant 
rear foot rocker or here heel 

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bevel, it's hard just holding it
up in the air to know how it's 

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going to look. 
But if you put it on a flat 

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surface and look at it, then you
can really get a sense of where 

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the rocker is starting and 
leaving the ground, right? 

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So when it comes to the plate, 
it's harder to know if the plate

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is going to line up your with 
your foot without actually 

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running in it because one, not 
every shoe company shows you 

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what the plate looks like. 
Most plates are curved and where

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the curve is located differs 
between shoes. 

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And again, if the company is 
nice enough to have like an 

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exploded diagram of the shoe on 
their website, or they've given 

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it to shoe reviewers and they've
put it on their website, then 

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you can look at it and see, OK, 
it's shaped like this. 

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But it's really hard to just 
look at the shape of a plate and

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know how it's going to interact 
with your foot, because the way 

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that the shoe runs isn't just 
dependent on the plate. 

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I think. 
I don't know if you would agree 

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with this, Nathan, but whenever 
I talk to runners about plated 

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shoes, the focus is just on the 
presence of a plate and whether 

224
00:13:02,560 --> 00:13:05,880
or not it's carbon. 
And something that I really try 

225
00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,320
to hit home with people is the 
plate is just a stiffening agent

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00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:16,000
and carbon is not necessarily a 
better material than nylon or 

227
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,200
plastic, depending on what type 
of shoe you're looking for and 

228
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,920
what your goals are with that 
shoe. 

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00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,960
Like it's the goal isn't to be 
able to run in a carbon shoe 

230
00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:29,440
because for one, just the 
presence of a carbon plate 

231
00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,320
doesn't mean anything about how 
that shoe is going to perform 

232
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,480
for you or anybody else. 
So if you've tried a bunch of 

233
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:40,640
shoes with carbon plates and 
they aren't comfortable, that 

234
00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,600
doesn't mean that you're like 
missing out on some like, 

235
00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,080
amazing performance game. 
It might just mean that you do 

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00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:51,240
better in a shoe that has nylon 
plate, or you do better in a 

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00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,160
shoe that doesn't have a plate 
that has maybe it has lower 

238
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:59,960
stack midsole, or maybe it gets 
its stiffness from the outsole 

239
00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:05,480
or some other design. 
So forget about the obsession 

240
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,560
with the carbon plate. 
It's just one part of how the 

241
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:13,240
shoe will help you A. 1000% and 
carbon plate is not equal to 

242
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,480
another carbon plate, both in 
design but also in stiffness. 

243
00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,280
You know this person 
specifically was talking about 

244
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,240
the Endorphin Pro 3, which in my
experience is a pretty stiff 

245
00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,480
shoe front to back. 
But then you take out another 

246
00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,560
carbon plated shoe like the SC 
Elite V3. 

247
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,120
A little bit more flexibility 
within that plate design. 

248
00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,080
And so the importance of this 
is, this is bringing two things 

249
00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,320
together I guess. 
But the importance of rocker 

250
00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:43,960
placement is I think related to 
how stiff the carbon plate is. 

251
00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:47,200
If the carbon plate is super 
duper stiff or the stiffening 

252
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,080
agent is really, really stiff, 
you're going to really have to 

253
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,680
line up that apex. 
But if there's a lot of 

254
00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:57,200
flexibility, even with some sort
of Stephanie agent, your your 

255
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,560
foot and your body weight is 
going to flatten out some of 

256
00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,800
that plate anyway and so it'll 
be a little bit less important. 

257
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,400
I don't know if you agree with 
that as well, but I think the 

258
00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,680
interplay between how stiff and 
then where that rocker is placed

259
00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,160
kind of they, they work together
and then as you said, the part 

260
00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:14,680
that's hard as the mechanics, 
right? 

261
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,800
Yeah, hard to measure. 
I think if you took one thing 

262
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:21,200
well, two things away from this 
question. 

263
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:25,240
One, you want the apex of the 
four foot rocker to start just 

264
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,200
behind the ball of your foot. 
Two, the performance of a shoe 

265
00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:32,480
is not solely dependent on the 
presence of a plate. 

266
00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,560
Over and over studies have found
that it's the interaction of the

267
00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,560
plate, the foam, and the shoe 
geometry that results in a given

268
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:45,760
ride for a person. 
So don't worry about the plate 

269
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,200
so much. 
Worry more about how that shoe 

270
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:50,040
runs for you, 100. 
Percent. 

271
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,560
And I guess to just answer this 
person's specific question, So 

272
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,600
if you're finding the Nova Blast
4 to be more efficient for you 

273
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:02,400
than than the Endorphin Pro 3, 
the Nova Blast 4 is a pretty 

274
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:04,640
soft shoe. 
It's certainly softer than the 

275
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,600
Endorphin Pro 3. 
It has a pretty large amount of 

276
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:12,720
posterior sole flare if I 
remember correctly. 

277
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:18,120
So we don't know if this person 
is a heel striker or leans 

278
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,680
further forward. 
But that large amount of 

279
00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:25,040
posterior flare may or may not 
have something to do with why he

280
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,240
likes it better than the 
Endorphin Pro 3. 

281
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,120
The Pro 3 has a pretty 
aggressive 4 foot rocker. 

282
00:16:34,880 --> 00:16:37,280
I'm just thinking of other 
differences, but I mean they're 

283
00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:43,440
very different shoes. 
So it I would say for him, the 

284
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,560
Endorphin Pro 3 doesn't sound 
like it's the best choice, 

285
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,720
especially if he's finding that 
the Nova Blast 4, which doesn't 

286
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:54,000
have a super foam, you know, 
it's just a highly cushioned 

287
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,760
daily trainer. 
The Endorphin Pro 3 probably 

288
00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,480
isn't the best super shoe choice
for him. 

289
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,160
Maybe he needs a shoe that feels
a little bit softer, so maybe 

290
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:12,000
try like the Hoka CLOX one, the 
New Balance SC Elite V3. 

291
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,720
Any other shoes that you think? 
Those are the ones that were in 

292
00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:19,400
my head. 
So the other question I have for

293
00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:24,040
you, within his question, he 
talks about using his heart rate

294
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,720
chest strap data in conjunction 
with runs. 

295
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,240
Do you think that's enough data 
to determine one being more 

296
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,000
economical than another, or is 
there more things to consider? 

297
00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,960
Definitely more things to 
consider just because heart rate

298
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:39,440
can be influenced by external 
factors. 

299
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,120
Like is it hot outside? 
Is it humid? 

300
00:17:42,120 --> 00:17:45,280
Are you dehydrated? 
Did you drink caffeine before 

301
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:49,640
your run? 
But if he has data from fifty 

302
00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,040
runs in the Nova blast four and 
fifty runs in the Endorphin Pro 

303
00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:57,680
3 and they all show the same 
trend, then I would say that's 

304
00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:00,760
pretty definitive. 
But if he's only basing this off

305
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,520
of a few runs in each shoe, I 
wouldn't say that the heart rate

306
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,600
data is good enough to make that
statement one way or the other. 

307
00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:10,800
Yeah, I agree. 
I think he talked about it being

308
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,120
over the last four weeks. 
He's kind of noticed this and I 

309
00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,360
think it's there's so many 
questions like, well is it the 

310
00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:17,920
same type of run? 
Did you, did you, are you 

311
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,960
fatigued from a workout the day 
before? 

312
00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,480
Did you eat the same thing on 
the, you know there's not a 

313
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,320
controlled environment so but 
like you said if you have months

314
00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,360
of data that is like a very 
consistent trend then I'd I'd 

315
00:18:30,360 --> 00:18:35,600
say it's probably the best that 
we have right to go off of so. 

316
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:37,680
Yeah, it's good. 
The professional way to test 

317
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,600
this, of course, is to get 
metabolic efficiency testing in 

318
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,880
a lab. 
But you need a metabolic cart. 

319
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,720
You need a lot of 
instrumentation that you know 

320
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,840
the everyday runner isn't going 
to have access to, so. 

321
00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,880
Great. 
Well, let's move on to our next 

322
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:54,600
question. 
Jeff sends us a question about 

323
00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:57,240
manipulating shoe stiffness, he 
says. 

324
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,080
I'm wondering if an aftermarket 
foot bed might act in the same 

325
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,560
way as a carbon or P backs plate
in a shoe. 

326
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,600
He talks about some examples. 
He uses a sole performance 

327
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,200
medium cork foot bed that he's 
put in his Nova Blast 3:00 and 

328
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,120
also in the Velocity Nitro 2 and
he's wondering if the stiffness 

329
00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:16,400
in the sole foot bed might be 
causing it to act as a plate 

330
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,200
does in distributing foot strike
impact force over a great area 

331
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:23,800
of the midsole and therefore for
him slowing down pronation. 

332
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,000
So what are your thoughts on 
using inserts to manipulate 

333
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,360
stiffness of a midsole? 
So it's an interesting question 

334
00:19:31,360 --> 00:19:35,480
because we know that the foot 
bed can significantly change the

335
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:37,760
feel of issue. 
And that's why when we talk 

336
00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:40,240
about whether or not someone 
should use aftermarket foot 

337
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,160
beds, we always say, look, the 
shoe was designed with the stock

338
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,880
foot bed in mind. 
If you replace it with an 

339
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,960
aftermarket one, you're really 
changing how your foot interacts

340
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,360
with the shoe in the way that 
the shoe designers didn't 

341
00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,120
actually intend. 
And whether or not that's a good

342
00:19:57,120 --> 00:19:59,920
thing or a bad thing for you 
depends on your individual 

343
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:03,280
mechanics and goals and 
everything, but certainly 

344
00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:07,600
putting a stiffer foot bed in a 
shoe that has a more flexible 

345
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,840
foot bed. 
Is going to make the shoe feel 

346
00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:14,840
stiffer, but whether or not it 
will actually change your 

347
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:20,680
mechanics really depends on how 
that the change in stiffness 

348
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,560
directly under your foot 
interacts with the geometry of 

349
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,880
the shoe. 
You know the Novoblast threes A6

350
00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,040
foot beds are pretty thin. 
You know nothing special about 

351
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:36,080
them, but the velocity Nitro too
has a slightly more padded foot 

352
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,920
bed, so if you're going to 
replace that with a stiff cork 

353
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:44,360
foot bed, I could see why. 
Just that was enough to make the

354
00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:46,760
velocity Nitro to feel way too 
stiff. 

355
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:52,440
But the other thing is, if you 
put a foot bed and a cork foot 

356
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:57,480
bed that's longitudinally stiff 
from heel to toe, that's 

357
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:03,120
different than, say, a shoe that
has more zonal stiffness built 

358
00:21:03,120 --> 00:21:07,080
in thanks to a plate or thanks 
to midsole or outsole 

359
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,680
properties. 
So it's it's probably not the 

360
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,040
best way to add stiffness to a 
shoe. 

361
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,040
Although if like this person 
found that it made his Novoblast

362
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:22,680
threes feel better, that's 
great, but I think it's probably

363
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:26,960
the wrong place to do it. 
One of those reasons is when 

364
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,480
shoe manufacturers put a plate 
in a shoe, the location of the 

365
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,320
plate really changes how the 
shoe runs. 

366
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,520
Whether you put the plate closer
to the foot or closer to the 

367
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:42,640
ground is going to change how 
you load that midsole. 

368
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,080
If the plate's closer to your 
foot, you're getting less 

369
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:48,680
compression of the midsole 
material before you get to the 

370
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,440
stiffness of the plate. 
If you put the plate closer to 

371
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:55,440
the ground, you are going to 
compress the midsole more before

372
00:21:55,440 --> 00:22:01,640
the plate has that stiffening 
action on the overall ride of 

373
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,200
the shoe. 
So you know, we we like to say a

374
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,200
lot here. 
It depends, but I think my 

375
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:13,240
answer would be using an insult 
to manipulate shoe stiffness is 

376
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,800
probably not the best way to go.
If you need a stiffer shoe, buy 

377
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:19,640
a stiffer shoe. 
Yeah, there's so many options 

378
00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,440
out there right now and 
obviously one of the limitations

379
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:25,400
if you don't have access to 
trying all of these things, but 

380
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,040
I think that there are so many, 
there's a such a range of 

381
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,840
stiffness of shoes that exist 
out there. 

382
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:35,280
And so I I agree with you 
finding something that's already

383
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,440
designed for what you need is 
going to be a win. 

384
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,560
At the same time, if you find 
that this one shoe and this one 

385
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,880
insole feels great, I think it 
feels great. 

386
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,320
I don't think I'm ready to go so
far to say that it changes your 

387
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,480
mechanics in any significant 
ways. 

388
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,400
Partially because there are some
of those studies, even with 

389
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:56,080
shoes that have are heavily 
posted that the amount of 

390
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,000
pronation that happens through 
your foot. 

391
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,720
Again, pronation is not we 
should just pronation is not 

392
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:03,520
bad, it's a normal motion. 
Needs to happen. 

393
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,080
It's only a problem if it is a 
problem, but that's with 

394
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,400
anything. 
Anything is a problem once, like

395
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:14,360
too much water, is a problem, so
I probably should have put more 

396
00:23:14,360 --> 00:23:16,600
context to that. 
Either way, pronation is not a 

397
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,720
bad thing. 
So just we're not saying that 

398
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:23,000
you need to stop pronation. 
But even in those shoes, when 

399
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,680
they did the studies looking at 
the motion of the foot within 

400
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:30,800
the shoe, and I think this was 
done by Matt Trudeau when he was

401
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,880
with Brooks. 
But they would, they cut holes 

402
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,720
in the shoe themselves, and then
they put the markers on the 

403
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,680
foot, and they showed that the 
mechanics of the foot within 

404
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:41,680
outside of the shoe looked like 
they changed. 

405
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,720
But the actual motion of the 
foot inside of the shoe was the 

406
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,680
same, independent of the shoe 
that was put underneath it. 

407
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,520
So I think that's too 
complicated to be able to say 

408
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:51,840
one way or another. 
Yeah. 

409
00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:54,560
And that that's a very good 
point too. 

410
00:23:55,560 --> 00:24:00,400
If you go get like a a gait 
analysis and you know you're 

411
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,360
looking at how the shoe's 
moving, just because your shoe 

412
00:24:03,360 --> 00:24:05,800
is moving in a certain direction
doesn't mean that's what your 

413
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:09,000
foot is doing inside the shoe. 
So just keep in mind that 

414
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,360
there's that limitation with 
video gait analysis. 

415
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,440
The other thing that I wanted to
bring up just, and it's a slight

416
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:22,640
offshoot of this question, but 
Dustin Jobert, if you look him 

417
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,320
up on Instagram, he's lab rat 
rundown. 

418
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,040
He does fun you know economy 
testing. 

419
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,840
He's a researcher and he has put
out some studies on running 

420
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:35,960
economy in super shoes. 
But he did AI think he used the 

421
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:40,360
victory insole where he took a 
shoe and that did not have a 

422
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:42,880
plate in it and he ran in it 
tested his running economy then 

423
00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:46,000
he put the carbon plated insole 
in there and he actually had 

424
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,280
worse running economy it with 
the stiffening agent insole, the

425
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,400
carbon plated insole in the shoe
compared to when it wasn't in 

426
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,080
the shoe. 
So I know this wasn't a running 

427
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:58,440
economy question and I also know
that that was one an end of one 

428
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,040
case study. 
But I do think it's an 

429
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,560
interesting discussion point 
where as we we go back to our 

430
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:05,480
last question, carbon doesn't 
equal better. 

431
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:10,440
Carbon is one element of design 
and it has to integrate well 

432
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,080
with the foam that's utilized 
the geometry there is then using

433
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:15,440
the plate in the way that it 
should. 

434
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,760
So I don't think it's a if you 
put carbon in it, it'll stiffen 

435
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,200
it up and make it better. 
Whether that means running 

436
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:28,320
economy or for your mechanics. 
OK, we are we are talking a lot 

437
00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:29,600
about carbon plates. 
We sure. 

438
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,600
Are. 
So let's just keep it going. 

439
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,400
So we're going to skip to a 
question from Carrie. 

440
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,040
Carrie is asking a question that
she has. 

441
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,160
She has been dealing with 
Morton's Neuroma, so we will 

442
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,040
talk about that a little bit 
more. 

443
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,680
And she ran a race in the New 
Balance RC Elite V2A half 

444
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,280
marathon and they were OK on 
trainee runs up to 8 miles or 

445
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,200
so. 
But the race was a suffer fest. 

446
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,120
She thinks the foam compressed 
during the race, leaving her 

447
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:59,920
feet feeling the plate, 
particularly on the back of the 

448
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:01,560
joints. 
And she's wondering, should I 

449
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,080
just accept I can't use carbon 
plated shoes or would another 

450
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,920
shoe possibly work? 
And she noticed that the Super 

451
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,720
cop elite comes in wide and 
talks about her having a 

452
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,720
slightly wider foot. 
This is a great question. 

453
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,480
So first of all, let's talk 
about what Morton's neuroma is. 

454
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,880
So Morton's neuroma is a 
thickening of the sheath around 

455
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,200
a nerve, typically the one that 
runs between your metatarsals. 

456
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:32,240
It normally occurs between your 
third and 4th toes. 

457
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:36,920
So often people will feel like 
there's a Pebble in their shoe 

458
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,800
in that region, like they feel 
like they're just always running

459
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,200
on a rock. 
But you take your foot out of 

460
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,160
the shoe and there's no rock. 
It can be quite painful and, you

461
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,120
know, keeps people from running 
or walking because of that 

462
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:54,560
discomfort. 
And so one of the most important

463
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,880
things for people with Morton's 
Neuroma is to wear a shoe that's

464
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,240
wide enough in the forefoot so 
that you aren't squeezing your 

465
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,120
toes and basically squeezing 
that thickened nerve tissue. 

466
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,400
So she's, you know, on the right
track with that. 

467
00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:16,840
So regarding the new bounds RC 
Elite V2, that is a very soft 

468
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,120
shoe. 
I recall ordering that shoe. 

469
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:24,560
This was before I was reviewing 
shoes for Doctors of Running and

470
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:28,400
I did like, I don't know, a mile
run on the treadmill in it. 

471
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:32,080
And it was so soft that I 
immediately sent it back. 

472
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,200
I was like there's no way I can 
run in this shoe. 

473
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:39,680
So for someone with Morton's 
neuroma, even if that shoe, if 

474
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:44,200
that toe box was wide enough, 
that softness, again depending 

475
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,120
on her mechanics, how she's 
loading the shoe, it could have 

476
00:27:48,120 --> 00:27:52,200
just put too much pressure on 
her forefoot as she was 

477
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,400
transitioning into push off. 
So again, it probably wasn't 

478
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,840
that she was feeling the plate, 
but more so just again, the 

479
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,560
interaction of the plate, the 
soft foam, the geometry of the 

480
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:11,400
shoe just didn't work for her. 
I'm also pretty sure now I could

481
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,000
be wrong, but I think that that 
New Balance RC Elite V2 was a 

482
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:19,720
unisex shoe, so it just might 
not have been wide enough for 

483
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,320
her. 
So if, yeah, the new Super Comp 

484
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:27,400
Elite does come in a wide, so 
perhaps that shoe would be a 

485
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,160
better choice for her. 
Just for a wider toe box and 

486
00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,320
Super Comp, Super Comp Elite V3 
is a little bit firmer than the 

487
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,320
RC Elite V2 was. 
I haven't ran in V4, have you? 

488
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:41,720
I have not. 
I have not either. 

489
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:44,880
So. 
But they've definitely balanced 

490
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,840
out the foam from 2:00 to 3:00, 
and they brought it to an 

491
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,200
acceptable realm. 
It's very soft still, but it's 

492
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:56,080
significantly better. 
So for Carrie's question number 

493
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,520
one, she knows that she needs a 
wider toe box #2. 

494
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,000
Should she just accept she can't
wear carbon plate shoes? 

495
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,880
No, but the RC Elite might just 
have been too soft. 

496
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,480
Wrong geometry, wrong plate 
location, interaction of all of 

497
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,640
those three. 
There's so many super shoes out 

498
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:18,200
there to try, so I would 
recommend trying something 

499
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,800
that's a little firmer knowing 
that she didn't like this very 

500
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,680
soft shoe. 
So again, perhaps the SC Elite 

501
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:31,280
V3 would be a good choice. 
The Hoka Cielo X1, while it's 

502
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:34,040
soft, I did not find it overly 
soft. 

503
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,720
It has a nice wide toe box. 
Actually have it here. 

504
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:48,480
So nice wide toe box, 4 foot 
rocker will help offload her Mt 

505
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,000
PS a little bit. 
I Unlike other Hoka shoes, there

506
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,640
are no side walls in the shoe so
it doesn't narrow the toe box 

507
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,520
the way that it doesn't say the 
mock or the ring cone. 

508
00:29:59,920 --> 00:30:04,800
So this might be a shoe to try. 
Let's see. 

509
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:10,960
The Saucony endorphin elite also
has a wider toe box, is also 

510
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:15,880
firmer, has a later rocker. 
Does have some toe spring 

511
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:20,880
though, so depending on your toe
extension mobility, it may or 

512
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,240
may not work. 
If you have limited toe 

513
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,880
extension, meaning like can your
toe bend up that way? 

514
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,880
Shoes with a lot of toe spring 
aren't going to work because 

515
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,200
they basically position your 
toes in extension when you're 

516
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,080
running, so that's something to 
just be aware of. 

517
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:42,480
But basically, Carrie, try some 
super shoes that are firmer. 

518
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,400
As long as they have a toe box 
that's wide enough for you. 

519
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,240
I would not give up on super 
shoes for you. 

520
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,800
Great. 
Any other thoughts, Nathan? 

521
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,640
No, I don't have much to add. 
I think that if you're, if 

522
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,640
you're if the concern for for 
her is the Morton's Neuroma 

523
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,440
sensation. 
I do think finding something 

524
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,480
that's wide enough is going to 
be a big deal. 

525
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,520
I think that New Balance 
interestingly in the past I 

526
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,000
always thought of them as this 
big toe box company, but the 

527
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,120
most recent ones especially 
their trail models, I've like 

528
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:21,440
their SC, their trail for the SC
line as well as that I just got 

529
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,600
the new hero and then I just got
the new 880 V 14. 

530
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:28,320
All of their toe boxes are much 
lower volume than I am used to 

531
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,080
from them. 
And so I think that as they've 

532
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,240
evolved, I think you're going to
have to maybe recalibrate if you

533
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,640
do want to stick in the New 
Balance realm to either their 

534
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:40,920
wide versions or sizing up if if
length is not an issue for you. 

535
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,080
Knowing that if you're working 
with a stiffer shoe, length 

536
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,600
matters quite a bit if you're 
looking at carbon plates. 

537
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,520
So just making sure that that 
lines up for you. 

538
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,400
I don't know if you've noticed 
that with New Balance or if it's

539
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,440
a if it's a me problem with all 
my foot stuff going on in the 

540
00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:57,160
last year, but that's been an 
observation for me. 

541
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:03,160
Let's see, I just got the Rebel 
V4 and the 88 and both of them 

542
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:07,400
felt pretty comfortable toe box 
width wise, but I haven't put a 

543
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,480
lot of miles on either so you 
know, to be determined. 

544
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,680
But I am normally pretty 
sensitive to toe box width, so 

545
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,600
the fact that they haven't 
bothered me yet is a pretty 

546
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,800
good. 
I'm trying to think of other new

547
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,840
bounds shoes I've tested 
recently. 

548
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,720
Since I didn't test the oh the 
SC Trainer V2. 

549
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,400
I thought the width there was 
fine, I just didn't like the 

550
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,480
change to the geometry. 
Yeah it was very high toe spring

551
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,920
yeah on the on that shoe, yeah 
and too soft for me for sure. 

552
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,360
Of course the I'm going to shout
out the New Balance Beacon V3 is

553
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:47,760
the best shoe of all time with a
nice wide toe box and a do it 

554
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,240
all shoe. 
But alas, no V4. 

555
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,040
Is it a doctor's running podcast
with Andrea if she doesn't bring

556
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,600
up the Beacon? 
I feel like I've gone at least 

557
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,320
two podcasts without bringing 
the Beacon up, so that was 

558
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,040
pretty good. 
High self restraint there, 

559
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,520
Nathan. 
Perfect. 

560
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:07,680
So. 
We're going to go into our last 

561
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,760
question before we go into the 
shoe review. 

562
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:13,120
This is from Tim and he's 
sending a question about energy 

563
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,000
and energy return. 
So his question is this are we 

564
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:21,200
sure that the energy return rate
from PBO Foams versus Eva is why

565
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,960
super shoes are faster? 
So I'm going to read a little 

566
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,720
bit more of his context because 
I think this is a he's trying to

567
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,200
process this out. 
He's got very very well thought 

568
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,720
out question. 
So for context I run in barefoot

569
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,120
shoes and super shoes for the 
most part. 

570
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,400
I use a stride power meter. 
I I mostly run the same routes 

571
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,200
over and over. 
I've used Zoom X without a plate

572
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,280
streak fly and I've used a 
plated shoe with Eva Hoka 

573
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,280
Carbonex and Zoom fly. 
Three foam is more important 

574
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,080
than plate. 
Totally agree with this 

575
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:54,480
conclusion is what he he says. 
For a given effort I'm I'm 

576
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,400
faster in plated PIBA shoes than
in barefoot shoes such as the 

577
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,120
Merrill Vapor Glove, but the 
barefoot shoes had no have no 

578
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,960
midsole foam. 
There is no energy loss to foam 

579
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,920
because there is none. 
So I'm suspicious that the real 

580
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,040
advantage in the quote addition 
is really the, quote additional 

581
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,719
leg length from the stack in 
combination with the lower 

582
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,360
distal weight versus Eva and 
lower energy loss versus Eva. 

583
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,840
Really it's that the stack 
height that matters is what he's

584
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,280
thinking. 
The better energy return rate 

585
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,080
and the lighter weight reduces 
losses in the economy that you 

586
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,920
would normally get with the 
EVAEVA. 

587
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:31,719
Is this the right way to think 
about it? 

588
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,520
So there's a lot going on in 
that question, Andrea, but if 

589
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,600
you what are your kind of 
initial responses to this kind 

590
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,960
of conundrum of are we sure that
the energy return rate of PBO 

591
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,360
foams versus Eva is why super 
shoes are faster or is it 

592
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:51,639
something else? 
So it's it is the different 

593
00:34:51,639 --> 00:34:53,960
energy return rate, but it's 
also something else. 

594
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,000
Of course, it's always more than
one thing. 

595
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:02,320
So I would say the first just 
issue I have with his logic is 

596
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:07,120
when he says, oh sorry, I'm just
reading. 

597
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,560
So when he said the barefoot 
shoes have no midsole foam so 

598
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:15,840
there is no energy lost to the 
foam, that's where the logic is 

599
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,920
not correct. 
So you don't lose energy because

600
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,720
of foam. 
Otherwise we would all be most 

601
00:35:22,720 --> 00:35:24,800
efficient running barefoot on 
pavement, right? 

602
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,800
But we're not. 
Foam returns energy at different

603
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,000
rates. 
So we know that Eva has a lower 

604
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:38,080
energy return percentage than 
PBA and that different PBA foams

605
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,840
have different energy return 
percentages. 

606
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,440
So some people, films are now 
reporting energy return in the 

607
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,320
90% range, which is crazy. 
Eva is typically in like the 50%

608
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:55,440
range, right, Nathan? 
I think that there, if we were 

609
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,120
to talking to somebody who is 
manufacturing the films and 

610
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,680
testing them, they would tell us
that typical Evas are getting 

611
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,720
much better in the 80s and that 
they are super critical, super 

612
00:36:07,720 --> 00:36:10,560
critically foaming them in ways 
that brings them close to the 

613
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,560
performance of Peevis. 
Yeah. 

614
00:36:11,720 --> 00:36:14,760
So I think that I think that the
the lines are not as distinct as

615
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,480
they used to. 
BE Yeah. 

616
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:19,200
But yeah, because of the curing 
process and whatnot, which leads

617
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,360
them to be considered super 
critical. 

618
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,440
But yes, So besides the idea 
that you're losing energy to 

619
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,840
foam, it's just how much is the 
foam returning energy to you? 

620
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,640
So there's that piece. 
But he's also correct that part 

621
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,800
of an advantage to super shoes 
comes from the higher stack 

622
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,880
height. 
And yes, it is thought that some

623
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,160
of the advantage is from 
essentially increasing a 

624
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,640
person's leg length. 
And that is assumedly one of the

625
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,680
reasons why World Athletics 
limits legal racing shoes to 

626
00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,320
40mm or lower in terms of stack 
height. 

627
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:03,840
So, but in totality, the 
performance benefit you get from

628
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,680
a super shoe, which we were 
talking about earlier is the 

629
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:12,840
combination of the energy return
you get from the foam, the 

630
00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,000
rocker geometry, how you 
interact with the plate. 

631
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,120
And you could take the same shoe
and test it on 10 people and 

632
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,160
they're all going to get 
different benefit or no benefit 

633
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,480
from it. 
So that's why we know some 

634
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,200
people are super responders to 
super shoes. 

635
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:35,160
Some people only get, you know, 
two percentage point improvement

636
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,360
in economy in a super shoe 
versus like a, you know, regular

637
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,920
old road flat. 
And some people actually have 

638
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,480
worse running economy in a given
super shoe. 

639
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:51,240
So it one way to think about it 
is if you took ten guys who were

640
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:56,760
all 210 marathoners, then gave 
them a particular super shoe and

641
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,560
had them do metabolic efficiency
testing in them, some of them 

642
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:04,080
are going to get a 2% increase 
in efficiency. 

643
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:07,920
Some people are going to get 5 
and you might have one guy who 

644
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,840
gets 8 or 10. 
So even though in, you know, 

645
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,200
regular old racing flats, they'd
all finish the marathon around 

646
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,960
the same point, you know, all 
other things being equal, you 

647
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,480
put them in the same super shoe 
and they're going to get a 

648
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,600
greater benefit from it. 
And that's and again, this isn't

649
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,840
the person's question, but 
that's what's made super shoes 

650
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,400
like really shake up the running
world. 

651
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,920
Is that part of today's results 
have to do with how well a 

652
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,560
person responds to a given super
shoe? 

653
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,320
And you know, whether or not 
that's good for the sport is a, 

654
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:47,280
you know, 5 hour podcast debate,
which we won't have today. 

655
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:52,480
But you've got to consider all 
of the features of the shoe and 

656
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:56,680
how it interacts with your body 
and your bio mechanics. 

657
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,800
Yeah. 
When I read this question, I had

658
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,760
a number of things that come 
into my mind. 

659
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,720
Some of them may seem like 
semantics, but I also think it's

660
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:08,520
important. 
So when I read the initial 

661
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,920
question, which is are we sure 
that energy return rate from PBA

662
00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,000
foams versus Eva foams is why 
super shoes are faster? 

663
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,280
I want to tweak the question a 
little bit to say why one may 

664
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,680
more be more economical than 
another because I think we when 

665
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,160
you think speed, speed is a very
different metric than running 

666
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,840
economy. 
I also think as I kind of 

667
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,760
started to reference when it 
comes to PIVA versus Eva, those 

668
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,080
lines are getting blurred 
because I think it's less about 

669
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,240
what the foam is because I ran 
in Piva foams that feel like 

670
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,640
bricks and I've also ran in Piva
foams that feel special, same 

671
00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:46,360
with EVAS. 
And I think that those lines are

672
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,240
blurred and it's less about it 
the the specific foam compound 

673
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,760
and if there is an exercise 
physiologist or a material 

674
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,560
science person that is like BS 
Nate, you're way off, please let

675
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,960
me know. 
But I think what matters more 

676
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,360
than the specific blend of the 
type of like resin material, I 

677
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,920
think it matters the active 
properties of how they respond 

678
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,240
to compliance and resilience and
therefore the the reflective 

679
00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:17,320
amount of energy loss or energy 
return that that foam has so. 

680
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:20,920
You could have a really poor 
performing PBA and a really high

681
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:25,120
performing super critical Eva 
and those might kind of combat 

682
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,160
each other in terms of why you 
might be more economical in one 

683
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:31,800
than another. 
So I think it's more about the 

684
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,560
properties of the foam result 
than it is about the the resin 

685
00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,240
that it starts with. 
The other thing that I 

686
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,120
understand in his question that 
I think is that I wanted to say 

687
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,920
one thing on was that idea of 
losing no energy because of foam

688
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:48,160
because there is none there in 
minimalist shoes. 

689
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,480
I think what he's referring to 
are the history. 

690
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,880
I don't know if he's referring 
to this specifically, but when 

691
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,280
you look at the energy return in
shoes, you have a line of 

692
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,000
compression and then it 
returning to its normal state. 

693
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,640
And the space between those two 
lines, which looks like a 

694
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,360
banana, is you're called your 
hysteresis curve and that's 

695
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,560
where your loss of energy comes.
The smaller that curve, the less

696
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,240
energy that you lose. 
That is looking at what is the 

697
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:16,200
energy return within the foam 
itself. 

698
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,920
And I think that his assumption 
is that if I'm don't have foam, 

699
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,280
then I won't have that 
hysteresis curve and the energy 

700
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,280
loss. 
But reality is that the energy 

701
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,040
has to be absorbed and returned 
somewhere else. 

702
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,200
So if you don't have foam 
underneath you, you're going to 

703
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,040
be doing that through your 
joints, your muscles, your 

704
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:37,520
tendons, all of that stuff in 
each property or each material. 

705
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,800
The pavement, the rubber in your
shoes, the tendons in your body,

706
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,360
the muscles in your body, they 
all have their own hysteresis 

707
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,840
curve as well. 
And so I think that's where the 

708
00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:50,360
assumption of there's no energy 
loss because I don't have foam 

709
00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,120
doesn't quite line up because 
everything, every single like 

710
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,120
structure that exists has energy
that it's going to absorb and 

711
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,760
try to return, and it's how 
efficient can it do that. 

712
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,800
And in some ways, foams can be 
as, if not more efficient than 

713
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,280
our bodies themselves, which is 
why they help us run more 

714
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,480
economically. 
So I don't know if that all made

715
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,840
sense, but it was something else
that went through my head as I 

716
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,880
was processing this question. 
Definitely, yeah. 

717
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,840
No, that's a good point. 
That like if you are running 

718
00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:22,640
barefoot, your body is 
absorbing, it is producing and 

719
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,160
absorbing energy with every 
footfall. 

720
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,600
Yeah, perfect. 
Well, let's pivot and we're 

721
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,240
going to talk about just one 
shoe in particular because 

722
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,680
multiple people have been asking
this question of Andrea. 

723
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,680
So Jeffrey and Les run on 
YouTube. 

724
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,480
They have this question for 
Andrea. 

725
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,760
Does Andrea like the Mizuno, Neo
Vista? 

726
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:49,000
I need to know because I tend to
like the same shoes as she does.

727
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,800
So Andrea, let's kind of run 
through the Neo Vista. 

728
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,200
For those who don't know, can 
you give us a little breakdown 

729
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,720
of what the shoe is, why it got 
created and some specs on it? 

730
00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:01,360
All right, so the Mizuno Neo 
Vista is Mizuno's new super 

731
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,320
trainer. 
They had, you know, it's been 

732
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,880
out in the shoe tuber world for 
a while, but it's going to be 

733
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:13,200
available for purchase June 1st.
Matt and I were lucky enough to 

734
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,280
test it over the past month or 
so. 

735
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:19,160
So specs. 
It's a pretty light super 

736
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:28,440
trainer, so it's 9.4 oz 266g for
men's size, 97.8 oz 221 grams 

737
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:33,280
for women's size, 8 stack 
height, and 44 1/2 in the heel, 

738
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,840
36 1/2 millimeters in the four 
foot, which gives it an 8mm 

739
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,400
drop. 
So what's interesting about it 

740
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,760
is while it's not nearly as 
aggressive as the Rebellion Pro 

741
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:51,360
or Rebellion Wave 2 or Rebellion
Flash Two, I mean it does have a

742
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,800
bigger heel bevel. 
It's got a pretty significant 4 

743
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,400
foot rocker and it's got a huge 
cut out in the midsole. 

744
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,560
The upper is really unique in 
that it's like almost like that 

745
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,440
booty sock like construction. 
The tongue is all one piece. 

746
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:13,160
It's got a really high Achilles 
tab here which I thought would 

747
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:18,000
bother me but did not. 
So I to answer their question, I

748
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,240
really like this shoe. 
Prior to this I would say the 

749
00:44:22,240 --> 00:44:27,840
New Balance SC Trainer version 
one and more recently the On 

750
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,280
Cloud Monster Hyper have been my
two favorite Super Trainers. 

751
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:37,320
But the SC Trainer one is really
heavy and I had high hopes for 

752
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,760
the SC Trainer Two that it would
kind of have the same ride but 

753
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:43,360
they'd figure out a way to 
reduce the weight a little bit. 

754
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,320
But they just really changed the
shoe inversion too too much and 

755
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,680
I found it way too soft. 
The Cloud Monster Hyper is 

756
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:54,800
awesome for people who land 
further forward because they 

757
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:58,520
have that like Puck of PBA in 
the four foot and mid foot. 

758
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:03,480
But I've got to say I like them 
Zuno Neo Vista better than both 

759
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,480
the SC Trainer one and the Cloud
Monster Hyper. 

760
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,480
And the reason why I've tested 
it, let's see, I've used it on 

761
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,000
several easy runs like a super 
slow recovery run. 

762
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,440
I did like a medium long run 
with it where I was basically 

763
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:24,640
running from work to home, and 
work is up in this town that's 

764
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,200
pretty high up on a Ridge, so it
was like a net elevation loss of

765
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,360
like 500 feet. 
It was all on cambered roads. 

766
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:37,200
I thought, well this run is 
going to solidify whether I love

767
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:41,160
or hate this shoe because 
everything about the terrain 

768
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,920
that I will be covering can be 
really bad for poorly fitting. 

769
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:50,480
Sock uppers can be really bad 
for shoes that just don't handle

770
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,160
cambered roads very well. 
But the shoe did awesome on that

771
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,080
run, like my feet were so 
comfortable I could have kept 

772
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,480
going. 
So let me talk a little bit 

773
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,400
about why. 
And also the written review is 

774
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,840
on our website if anyone wants 
to read that too. 

775
00:46:06,240 --> 00:46:10,960
But basically the sock like 
upper fits really, really well. 

776
00:46:11,240 --> 00:46:16,440
They did a really nice job of 
giving it enough structure that 

777
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:18,280
your foot doesn't slide around 
in it. 

778
00:46:18,720 --> 00:46:22,160
I know Matt had some issues with
the overlay here. 

779
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,040
He felt like it was putting a 
little pressure on the like his 

780
00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:29,360
lateral forefoot, but I didn't 
find that and I just found that 

781
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,200
my foot felt really secure in it
without having to like really 

782
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,920
tie down the laces tightly. 
It just fit comfortably. 

783
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,520
I was really concerned about 
this. 

784
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,960
This goes up really high like 
almost above my Achilles and 

785
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,480
when I was walking around in it 
and I thought oh gosh, I'm going

786
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,160
to have to wear like knee high 
socks so that I don't get 

787
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:53,120
blisters. 
But Matt told me he didn't have 

788
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,880
any issues so I just wore my 
normal like ankle height socks. 

789
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:02,000
And the only time I felt this 
high Achilles tab was when I was

790
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:05,920
running like on a really steep, 
like mile long downhill. 

791
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,440
But I didn't get any blisters 
from it. 

792
00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:12,240
I was just aware of it. 
And you know, it was like mildly

793
00:47:12,240 --> 00:47:15,760
annoying but definitely wouldn't
keep me from wearing it again. 

794
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,280
So of course everybody's got 
like different calf shapes, and 

795
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,760
the angle of your ankle when 
you're running downhill is going

796
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,400
to depend how much rubbing you 
get here. 

797
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,920
But it didn't bother me. 
So it I don't think people 

798
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:32,840
should assume that it's going to
bother them. 

799
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:39,840
But this shoe has a really nice 
balance between compliance and 

800
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,960
resilience, and what I liked is 
that at different paces it 

801
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,000
responds differently. 
So the SC trainer I really only 

802
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,400
used for easy runs 'cause it was
dense, it was firm, but like it 

803
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,600
was so Rockard that I really 
just felt like it ran for me. 

804
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:58,880
Which when you're really tired 
is kind of nice. 

805
00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:03,360
And the Neo Vista, when I was 
running really slowly, like just

806
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,600
recovery pace, it just felt 
really nice and cushioned and 

807
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,320
soft. 
I didn't feel the ground just 

808
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:13,720
like nice and protective, so I 
could move my legs and recover 

809
00:48:13,720 --> 00:48:15,400
from my hard workout the day 
before. 

810
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:19,840
But as I picked up the pace, it 
really felt like the foam 

811
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:23,320
started to respond more and had 
a little bit of a propulsive 

812
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,080
feel. 
And on that longer run it was 

813
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,240
running like, you know, 45 
seconds slower than marathon 

814
00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:32,920
pace. 
So not fast, but faster than 

815
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:36,200
easy and same thing. 
It just had this nice like 

816
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,040
little bit of propulsive feel 
helped. 

817
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,160
It made me feel like it was just
helping me turn over a little 

818
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,200
bit. 
I did some just like pickups 

819
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,320
around threshold pace and same 
thing. 

820
00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:51,560
Like I thought oh this isn't 
going to feel that great running

821
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:53,520
fast, but it actually it felt 
great. 

822
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:57,080
Like it felt like again it was 
just it was responding to the 

823
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,600
load I was putting in it. 
And I think one of the features 

824
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:05,560
of that, the really wide cut out
really kind of lets the shoe 

825
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,480
function differently at 
different paces depending how 

826
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,960
you load it. 
Like it really feels like when I

827
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,080
land it the the foam is able to 
spread out a little bit 

828
00:49:15,080 --> 00:49:19,560
depending how much I'm loading 
it and I think that that is 

829
00:49:19,720 --> 00:49:23,680
partially responsible for its 
different performance at 

830
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,840
different paces. 
The four foot rocker lines up 

831
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:32,360
really nicely with my mechanics.
It's not too aggressive where I 

832
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,080
felt like it was like shooting 
me into push off too early. 

833
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:40,720
Toe box is nice and wide. 
I didn't have any irritation on 

834
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:46,560
the ball of my foot. 
So it's it's definitely my go to

835
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,120
super trainer now. 
Like I think I'll definitely 

836
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,560
keep using it for easy runs, 
recovery runs. 

837
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:56,400
I'm going to test it on another 
long run just so I can give 

838
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:58,640
everybody an update on what I 
thought of it. 

839
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:03,920
But one thing I wrote in the 
review so many of these Super 

840
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,360
Trainers are over $200, which 
you can debate whether they're 

841
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:13,400
worth 200 plus dollars or not. 
But the Neo Vista is 180 and the

842
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,840
fact that it's so versatile at 
different paces really makes it 

843
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,440
a better value in my opinion 
than some of these other shoes. 

844
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:25,120
I mean, paying $220.00 for a 
shoe you can only use for 

845
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,600
recovery runs is kind of crazy 
in my opinion. 

846
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:33,360
But if you can pay 180 for a 
shoe that can be used for like 

847
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:36,760
the bulk of your runs, then 
that's a better value. 

848
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,000
I personally wouldn't race in 
it, but I could definitely see 

849
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:44,480
some people using it, like for 
the marathon distance or half 

850
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,880
marathon. 
Of course it's not legal because

851
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:51,720
the heel is 44 1/2 millimetres, 
but as long as you're not going 

852
00:50:51,720 --> 00:50:54,440
for prize money, you're good to 
run in it. 

853
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:58,640
Yeah, So, yeah. 
And so I the Neo Vista is 

854
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,040
definitely my new favorite super
trainer. 

855
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,280
So if you tend to like the same 
shoes I do, you're probably 

856
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,560
going to like this one. 
How similar does it feel to some

857
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:10,800
of the other Mizuno shoes that 
came out this year is question 

858
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,960
comparison one. 
Comparison two is the foam 

859
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,400
material. 
What other company has a foam 

860
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,240
that would be most similar to 
it? 

861
00:51:18,240 --> 00:51:21,840
But let's start with kind of 
because the new Flash and then 

862
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,120
the Rebellion Pro 2 are two 
shoes that you've enjoyed. 

863
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,440
Are they similar or are they 
pretty distinct from each other?

864
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:31,880
I think that the they are not 
particularly similar. 

865
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:36,120
The Rebellion Pro 2 and 
Rebellion Flash Two. 

866
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:41,240
I've got the Pro here, so this 
is the Rebellion Pro Two. 

867
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:45,360
It has that really crazy heel 
bevel that I love. 

868
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,960
Like this year feels like it was
a design for me. 

869
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:52,680
It works really well for midfoot
strikers, but even heel strikers

870
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:58,080
seem to like this a lot. 
But just looking at that heel 

871
00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:04,400
bevel, how aggressive that is 
compared to this, you know 

872
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:09,080
there's a heel bevel there, but 
it's not nothing like the Pro 2.

873
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:15,160
No, the Pro 2's in a league of. 
Its own so they don't run 

874
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:21,080
similar in that regard, but for 
someone who likes the Pro Two, I

875
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:28,000
think that the heel bevel on the
Neo Vista is in the same design,

876
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:31,240
just to a significantly less 
degree. 

877
00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:35,800
So that's why it feels good and 
slower paces for me. 

878
00:52:37,480 --> 00:52:41,600
I think it like if you really 
like the Rebellion Pro 2 for 

879
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:46,560
racing and the Flash 2 for like 
workouts, or like I like the 

880
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:51,080
Flash 2 for easy runs. 
Actually, the neo Vista is like 

881
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:56,440
a nice complimentary third shoe 
for easier runs or slower long 

882
00:52:56,440 --> 00:52:58,520
runs. 
Very cool. 

883
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,320
And then the foam compound and 
like the softness in that return

884
00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,520
and kind of variability of 
response based on speeds, is it 

885
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,400
mirror any other companies foam 
out there that you're that comes

886
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,600
to mind? 
So first of all I so it's 

887
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,800
interesting. 
Next, in XT, it does not feel 

888
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:23,840
the same as the foam in the 
Rebellion Pro 2, which is Mizuno

889
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,880
Energy Light. 
Yep, that's the foam in there. 

890
00:53:31,240 --> 00:53:37,880
The Rebellion Pro 2 feels 
significantly firmer to me than 

891
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:42,120
the Neo Vista does now. 
The Neo Vista, What would I 

892
00:53:42,120 --> 00:53:48,960
compare that the most to? 
It actually feels a lot like the

893
00:53:48,960 --> 00:53:51,800
foam in the New Balance SC Elite
V3. 

894
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,320
That's what was it. 
Without ever testing the shoe in

895
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:57,880
my head, I was like, is she 
going to say that shoe? 

896
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:02,200
And you and I my heart. 
Fluttered and it's like we're 

897
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,080
mind melted Nathan. 
And that actually makes a lot of

898
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,480
sense for what I liked the SC 
Elite V3 for. 

899
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,200
Yeah, like I can do easy long 
runs in that shoe. 

900
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,600
It's so, so comfortable for me 
at like any pace. 

901
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:21,680
So you know, again, you think 
about the geometry of that shoe,

902
00:54:21,720 --> 00:54:25,880
I don't have that up here with 
me, but it's got a large central

903
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,880
cut out. 
It's not as large as the cut out

904
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:29,640
in the neo Vista, but it's 
large. 

905
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,480
The foam in that shoe, that's a 
super critical Eva, right? 

906
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,880
Yeah, they they've been pretty 
cagey about what it really is. 

907
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:41,000
But that's what we think it is. 
Yeah, somebody can tell. 

908
00:54:41,000 --> 00:54:42,680
I'm sure somebody knows that. 
They can tell us. 

909
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,960
So yeah, yeah, come to think of 
it, it's it is like a slightly 

910
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:53,960
softer, but not not in a bad way
because I hate soft shoes. 

911
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:58,040
It there is more compliance in 
the Neo Vista as compared to the

912
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:03,720
SCL EV3, but because it has a 
high level of responsiveness, 

913
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:07,800
especially increased 
responsiveness as you pick up 

914
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:14,960
the pace, it has a similar 
overall feel to as compared to 

915
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:16,800
the SC Elite V3. 
Amazing. 

916
00:55:17,440 --> 00:55:19,960
Sounds like it's something that 
I'm excited to test out at some 

917
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,960
point, yeah, because when you 
were describing, I was like 

918
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,680
that's what I seemed like. 
I think we both liked the SC 

919
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,960
Elite for. 
But it looks like there's a 

920
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:32,240
little bit more durable elements
within the Vista as well in 

921
00:55:32,240 --> 00:55:35,480
comparison to that shoe in terms
of the amount of rubber and the 

922
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:37,560
thickness of the upper and 
things like that, so. 

923
00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:39,920
I mean, this is full coverage 
rubber. 

924
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:45,640
Every run I did was on wet roads
and it did great and actually 

925
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:49,960
the really wide cut out, it's so
wide it's hard for rocks to get 

926
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:51,960
stuck in in. 
That was going to be my other 

927
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:53,000
question. 
So, perfect. 

928
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:54,840
Yeah. 
There's just, you know, this 

929
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,880
part in the midfoot is a little 
bit narrower, but I mean, there 

930
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:02,320
are rocks all over the roads 
that I run on, and I haven't 

931
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,920
gotten a rock stuck in the Neo 
Vista once, and I always get 

932
00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:10,720
rocks stuck in the SC Elite V3. 
So if I get to test that shoe, 

933
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:12,960
I'll run on the green circle, 
which is like crushed granite. 

934
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,440
We'll see how it does, but I 
have a little bit of hope 

935
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,240
because I I've had OK 
experiences in the SC Elite. 

936
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,440
So we shall see. 
Great. 

937
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:26,720
Well, thank you all for joining 
us on this journey of this 

938
00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:29,120
mailbag episode. 
We appreciate your questions. 

939
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,920
As always. 
Please feel free to answer 

940
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,680
below. 
Ask more questions below and 

941
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:36,640
we'll try to get them into a 
future episode. 

942
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:38,440
If you want to follow what we're
doing, you go to 

943
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,440
doctorsofrunning.com or check us
out at Doctors of Running on 

944
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:42,840
Social. 
Thanks for joining me on a 

945
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,040
Monday, Andrea. 
Thanks Nathan. 

946
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:44,800
This is great.