1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:10,920 Hey everyone, and welcome to the Doctors Running podcast where we 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:12,400 a group of doctors physical therapy. 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,880 We talked about the art and the science of things we're putting 4 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,840 on our feet today. I am super pumped to have Jen 5 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,360 and Evan from Brooks back on the podcast. 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,480 We had a great time last time and it is on me for not getting 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,080 you 2 on here sooner. And I'm super happy that we 8 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:30,880 could find some time to talk and get to know what you both are up 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,439 to. And some of the new developments 10 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:35,520 that not only are happening at Brooks, but I think can really 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,280 educate consumers and the rest of us on what is progressing in 12 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:41,680 the footwear industry and what we need to be thinking about. 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:43,960 Especially when it comes to things like the everyday runner 14 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,480 habitual motion pathways, which we talk about all the time, and 15 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:49,400 other things about how we are measuring things. 16 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:53,400 But before we dive into that, since it's been a minute, would 17 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,680 you 2 mind reintroducing yourselves and helping us 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,040 understand your roles at Brooks? Yeah, of course. 19 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,520 My name's Jennifer, Jennifer Sundar. 20 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:05,760 I'm the director of Run Research at Brooks. 21 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,880 I've been with Brooks a little over seven years now, started as 22 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,760 an individual contributor, a researcher in the lab and have 23 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,960 seen the big growth of the of our team in the brand over the 24 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:20,200 last seven years. I think when I started there was 25 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:22,280 four of us and now there's like 27. 26 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,480 So it was quite a lot of, lot of growth in that time. 27 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:29,400 A little bit of my background just for people's awareness, if 28 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,880 we were listening to. I got into the running world, I 29 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,720 say through consulting. I was a technician for Benonig, 30 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,880 went with his consulting company out of Canada and I moved after 31 00:01:41,880 --> 00:01:45,640 my masters degree and didn't know what I wanted to do and he 32 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,000 was hiring a technician and I was like, yeah, let's try that 33 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:50,320 and ended up getting it. It was great and I got a lot of 34 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:54,000 exposure to performance product. He does everything from run to 35 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,440 hockey skates and all of it. Decided to do my PhD with him. 36 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,320 So I was with him for another four years after three years of 37 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,760 being a technician with him and then join the industry directly 38 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,240 worked at New Balance for a short stint before my time here 39 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,080 at Brooks. Devin Day, I'm a manager here on 40 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:16,040 the run research team at Brooks. I've been here 4 1/2 years total 41 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,680 now, 1st 2 1/2 years as an individual contributor in the 42 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,320 last two years in kind of manager position. 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,480 And then kind of within probably half past half year or so, I'm 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,400 kind of positioned to overseeing what we call like dynamic 45 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:33,680 cushioning. The joke I kind of tell people 46 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,520 when they ask what dynamic is, is it shoes without the intent 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,200 of running really fast in so kind of your core trainers think 48 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,400 of like the ghost glycerin, glycerin Max, ghost Max Beast, 49 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:49,000 all those standard cushion shoes kind of overseeing what we call 50 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,520 performance or bio mechanics research and then also 51 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,280 perception research in that area as well. 52 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:59,120 Background for me, I've been a runner since I fell in love with 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,280 it in middle school and always fascinated by footwear and 54 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:04,840 injuries and everything of that sort. 55 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,320 And yeah, I found bio mechanics in undergrad when you know, you 56 00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:11,920 see a flyer to make $10 to go run in a lab in the basement of 57 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:14,600 the building somewhere. And actually fell in love with 58 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,200 it from from that point on when I found out you could have a 59 00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:20,960 crew asking questions about running and went through grad 60 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,200 school, did masters at Iowa State and then did my PhD at the 61 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,120 University of Oregon with Mike on very running performance 62 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:31,120 focus there. Short stint at Adidas doing 63 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,120 basketball footwear actually. And then found my way up to 64 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,120 Brooks right in early 2020. So just for the listeners and 65 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,800 viewers, you have a 2 pH DS here, one from University of 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,000 Calgary degree and one from University of Oregon. 67 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,560 No, there's a huge volume of experience and knowledge here 68 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,200 and pedigree. So I'm super pumped. 69 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:53,200 And these two are also super cool as well. 70 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,040 So we're really happy to pick their brains and get to have a 71 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:57,960 conversation with them and hope that you can come along for the 72 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,680 ride and really enjoy this. So I think one of the things 73 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,960 that was mentioned 1st and we've actually talked about this and 74 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:05,920 this is actually what we talked about coming and doing this 75 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:10,880 podcast on was the development and design of footwear for the 76 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,360 everyday runner. Part of the reason we brought 77 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:17,079 this up is when you 2 put up with me when I was I showed up 78 00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:18,839 there at Brooks, I'm just kidding, not put up with, but 79 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,040 you were awesome and we got to get out together in the amazing 80 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,880 lab that you have some of the questions that came up. 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,400 I was the classic runner asking about all the Super shoes, stuff 82 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,000 like that. And then over the last couple 83 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,680 years, what I've come to realize is despite the popularity of 84 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,080 these shoes, that is still not what the everyday runner is 85 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:38,920 often choosing or actually needs. 86 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,400 And So what I'm hoping a little bit of this so we can get into 87 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,760 like what do does the recreational runner really need 88 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,480 to think about in terms of choosing footwear with a bit of 89 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:50,560 insight into how that is designed and what things to 90 00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,760 maybe think about beyond just plates, maximal stack heights, 91 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:58,360 things like that, with additions of going, we all move different 92 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,120 ways. How do we figure out what shoe 93 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,360 is best for us? So is there any place that you 94 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:04,120 want to start? Yeah. 95 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:07,960 Do you would you want to? Let Jen start that one. 96 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:10,240 I'll let you start and I'll I'll RIP off you. 97 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:10,880 How about that? OK. 98 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,680 Yes, ma'am. The so I'm very passionate about 99 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,040 the everyday runner. I think as we talked about this 100 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,480 last time a couple years ago, just from a personal standpoint 101 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,880 of how the run shows up for me, I was never more than a 5K 102 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,400 distance. I think once I thought I would 103 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,960 do a five mile race and and then I thought I might die because I 104 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,560 just find the run is so much harder than I anticipated. 105 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:37,560 I got into running when I was doing my PhD because I was 106 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,400 studying novice runners and figured, well, I have to run if 107 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,320 I'm going to study them because that would just be like silly, I 108 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,680 won't understand anything. So that was like my entry point 109 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,720 into it. And just a sense of like, once I 110 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,160 was in, especially being in the industry, whether consulting or 111 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:58,000 then really being in it, in it, this verbiage that's attached to 112 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,440 it, whether you're a runner or not, you know, like it's so I 113 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,840 had felt like I, I worked at places where I couldn't even 114 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:06,320 test the product because my run wasn't fast enough, long enough, 115 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:08,880 enough distance, anything else, even though I was running like 116 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:13,240 10 miles a week and I was like a 9 1/2 minute Miller that wasn't 117 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,600 showing up as enough to like be considered as someone who can 118 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,120 give feedback on shoes. And when I drunk Brooks, I was 119 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:22,080 just blown away of how inclusive it was. 120 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,560 It was like, it really like if the run showed up for you at 121 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:26,720 all, that was really all that mattered, not how it was, how 122 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,400 fast it was, just that it's there. 123 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,520 And really feel passionate about that in terms of the brand. 124 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,640 So that that's really special to me about the whole brand. 125 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,600 The where we're, when you're developing the products 126 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,920 themselves. So we test and how much volume 127 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,720 that we have tested on shoes. One like we have our Pinnacle 128 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:47,280 product that does go to the athlete. 129 00:06:47,280 --> 00:06:50,680 You know, you're Hyperion Elite. Those will be shoes that you 130 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,200 test with the athlete. Like specifically, you're not 131 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,480 even probably bringing the everyday person in as heavily on 132 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:58,520 those. But then the other 98% of 133 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,240 everything we're building is for the general, the general runner. 134 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:04,720 And when we test those shoes, those go out to the general 135 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,480 runner. We're not sending them to a pro 136 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,680 athlete or or high level caliper in that sense to you evaluate it 137 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,680 for us. So that just that volume, but 138 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:16,840 also where we're learning from the everyday runner. 139 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,000 So this is a partnership we'll have with Dash and their lived 140 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,680 experience. But how you can hear from a 141 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:23,680 runner right after they run something like a marathon and 142 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,560 you're asking them more about what types of product they were 143 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,800 using, why they were using it, What did they train in versus 144 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:30,200 what showed up for them on race day? 145 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,600 And those ones I think are very intriguing, what you train in 146 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,680 versus what you race. And and yes, by the time you hit 147 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,800 a marathon, there's different calipers of what you're racing. 148 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:38,520 So Evan and I've talked about this before because Evan 149 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:40,400 actually runs marathons, whereas I do not. 150 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:44,560 So this is where I just more see it from a researcher perspective 151 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:47,840 and what you hear. But when we ask people that are 152 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,600 going to have a Brooks lien, because if you are signing up 153 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,880 for a survey for us, then you at least know who Brooks are. 154 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,600 So we'll have a bias on that in terms of who we're hearing from. 155 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,160 But the most trained in are your ghosts and your glycerin. 156 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,080 That's what people are using. That is in our dynamic, you 157 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,520 know, pillar cushion. And then on race day still, I'd 158 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,520 say at least half are staying in a ghost or an adrenaline like 159 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,080 they stay in that shoe, they train in it and they race in it 160 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,520 in that space. And then the other half are 161 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,000 switching to like the Hyperion Elite. 162 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:16,960 They will go to that super shoe on the race day. 163 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,440 And so and then you'll see the parts I get interesting for me 164 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,520 with that too are are the aches and pains people have. 165 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,000 So the people that stay in the shoe that they trained in and 166 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:31,400 keep it on race day do report less aches and pains on the race 167 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,400 day itself and the day after compared to people that 168 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,640 switched. And so when I was seeing some of 169 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,159 us was asking Evan, Evan switch his shoes. 170 00:08:38,159 --> 00:08:39,600 And I'm like, would you ever not switch? 171 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,559 And I feel like your answer was no, definitely not. 172 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:43,240 I would switch. Absolutely not. 173 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,440 I would even if you told me I would not, I would have less 174 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:47,280 aches like I'm switching on race day. 175 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,480 So, you know, it really boils down to like what someone's 176 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:53,880 goals and goals are, whether it's the PR and that and that 177 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:55,920 race, the switching of the shoe, is it, or if it's like, I just 178 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,240 want my body to stay as intact as possible for as long as 179 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:00,800 possible. And I can achieve that in 180 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:05,360 maintaining my shoe without needing to go to the next level 181 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:09,120 of APR in a certain way. So just understanding that there 182 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,800 is this massive range of of why and how people are running to be 183 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:17,320 able to meet everyone where they are and have the the awareness 184 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:20,960 of these different needs, I think is a big, big aspect of 185 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:23,280 what Brooks research is. That was real rambly. 186 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:25,480 I should have let Evan go. That was. 187 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,000 Great. Yeah, it was great. 188 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,640 This is what we're, this is what we're all about. 189 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,560 So this is awesome. Can I emphasize a piece that you 190 00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:35,040 mentioned that that sticks out to me quite a bit right now? 191 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,360 So one of the things we talked about and we tried to post about 192 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,800 it is that and not to be like exclusive speed stuff like that 193 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,680 is a lot of people will e-mail us or ask us, hey, you know, 194 00:09:44,680 --> 00:09:46,720 I've got this race in like 2-3 weeks. 195 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:48,720 I can't figure out what super shoe to wear. 196 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:51,080 You know, I don't necessarily have a speed goal. 197 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:55,520 I want to finish and I think if you stay in the running, like 198 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:58,720 you kind of stay in the running geekery world or you kind of 199 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,480 focus on like the more elite stuff, you tend to think that 200 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,640 everybody wears a different shoe for race day. 201 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:08,320 And that's not really true. It's in fact, there is a still a 202 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,960 large percentage, in fact probably a greater percentage. 203 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,880 I'm guessing is it about 50% or is it a little bit more? 204 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:16,320 They're still using the same shoe of the population. 205 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,400 Yeah, I'd have to pull it. So even from this story now we 206 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,040 have about 500 runners that have done it. 207 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,800 We're going to continuously ask this question. 208 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:26,320 So this will just mass over the years as we have it and I we 209 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,040 looked at how many people stayed in the exact same shoe, how many 210 00:10:29,040 --> 00:10:31,040 people stayed at least within the same brand and how many 211 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:32,360 people straight up switched brands. 212 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,960 So like if you may be trained in a ghost, but you switched to a 213 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:36,480 Nike on race day or something else. 214 00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,040 So like there's those were kind of the genres we broke them 215 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,000 into. I think like at least 50 stayed 216 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:43,960 in their own brand. So they might have still gone to 217 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:46,680 the Super shoe version. Like you went from a ghost to I 218 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:50,720 appearing elite, but then I don't know the exact numbers 219 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,400 from that now 500 because when I analyzed it, it was like 200 and 220 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,320 we've amassed another 300 since then. 221 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,320 But I would have guessed at least about 1/3 were just 222 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,760 staying in who they trained in. Like they trained in a ghost, 223 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,880 they raced in a ghost and that was what their objective was in 224 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:07,600 the end. And it was again, if it was 225 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:09,800 better for their, they had less aches and pains at the end of it 226 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:12,280 because their body's not adjusting to completely 227 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:15,400 different mechanics of of how the shoes influencing you that 228 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:17,760 day. But yeah. 229 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:19,640 So that makes sense to me because that's that's something 230 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,720 we can't frequently emphasize is like, don't try tons of new 231 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,280 stuff before race day. Like if your goal is to finish, 232 00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:27,760 use the same shoe that you've been training in. 233 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,360 And I think that a lot of the Super shoes, as you mentioned, a 234 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,640 lot of companies really tend to focus on their testing and 235 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,560 development with faster speeds, faster runners doesn't mean that 236 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,280 other people can't run in them. It just might mean, and maybe 237 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,840 I'm biased from AP TS perspective and kind of thinking 238 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:45,200 about return to run post marathon or getting through it 239 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,400 without any kind of injuries or things like that. 240 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,840 Been injured predictions hard enough as it is that encouraging 241 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,480 people to go. You can stick with the same shoe 242 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:56,720 for sure if that's something you're comfortable with because 243 00:11:56,720 --> 00:11:59,280 your goal in the marathon, if your goal is to finish, should 244 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,320 be about comfort. And that's really awesome to 245 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:02,840 hear. Yes, you actually have like less 246 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,920 soreness and less tissue damage. Did I understand that correctly? 247 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,880 Yeah, self reported aches and pains like. 248 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,560 Self reported. Aches and pains after marathon, 249 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:14,280 but you like the severity of that, A campaign reported is 250 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:17,760 less with the folks that kept the same model of the same brand 251 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:19,560 that they were trained in. Got it. 252 00:12:19,560 --> 00:12:22,800 So that means like you, you should be so big piece I guess 253 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,120 is you should be training in the thing you plan to utilize. 254 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:28,520 There shouldn't be a switch at the last time. 255 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,920 And it is totally OK to use your training shoe as a marathon or 256 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,640 as a race shoe depending on what your needs are as an individual. 257 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,760 And I feel like that is what gets lost with a lot of the hype 258 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:42,400 and belief. And I'm not trying to put 259 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,320 anybody down. I'm just trying to, to keep 260 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:48,200 people, you know, helping people find what's really best for 261 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,080 them, which could vary. Is that a good way of 262 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,000 interpreting what I'm? Hearing yeah, that's what I 263 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,280 would and and those ones we want to keep analyzing would have 264 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,760 been like the the folks that are signed up to share with us on 265 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,280 that to share their watch metrics. 266 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,640 So you can't see their race day performance or see how that 267 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,240 changed from any PRS they had from that sense to see if 268 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,400 there's any correlation also still with your performance on 269 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,640 race day. But ultimately, if your number 270 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:14,200 one goal is to reduce the damage on the body, then I would say 271 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,800 like staying in your same shoe is probably your safer bet. 272 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,120 It's not that it's impossible, obviously, but. 273 00:13:20,680 --> 00:13:22,600 The marathon is a lot on the body. 274 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:24,640 I don't know if you, I'm sure you 2 have seen this research 275 00:13:24,640 --> 00:13:27,120 that there's evidence that it takes at least three months to 276 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,720 really, truly recover musculoskeleton from a marathon. 277 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,360 And most people like will just jump in not too far after that. 278 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,640 It's like, oh, there's it's not that you shouldn't do it. 279 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,560 You just have to know that there when you run that far that hard, 280 00:13:40,560 --> 00:13:43,320 there's a lot of tissue damage that you have to recover from. 281 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,040 Make sure that for longevity purposes, again, biased you 282 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,240 think about what might help you best. 283 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,880 And this is just more information for people to 284 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:52,360 ponder. Yeah. 285 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:55,720 So. Evan walked pretty funny for a 286 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:58,840 while at work after. Not funny all the time. 287 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,160 I think Evan, you and I need to, we definitely need to go for him 288 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,360 because somebody was making a comment, you made a comment when 289 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,440 we met and you're like, I have just the weirdest running gate. 290 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,680 And I have also been told people have looked at me and go, how 291 00:14:10,680 --> 00:14:12,440 are you going forward? So I feel like we need to have 292 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,560 like a running gate face off. Who has the weirder bio 293 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,760 mechanics? Absolutely sweet. 294 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,000 The best part is I think our marathon PRS are right around 295 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,040 the same also, so maybe we're onto something here. 296 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,960 We might be onto something. I don't know if I could do that 297 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,080 currently right now. I'd like to do that again with a 298 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:31,520 stroller, but I don't know if that's going to happen. 299 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:34,640 So one day, one day. So what does this look like from 300 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,480 a bio mechanics perspective? Just to give people a little bit 301 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,160 more on the science of when you are developing footwear for 302 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,280 elite versus the recreational runner, what kind of things are 303 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,600 going like big picture things are going through your heads. 304 00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:50,280 Yeah, I can take kind of maybe more of the recreational side of 305 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,680 it. One thing we kind of like to 306 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,440 lead with here from like a thought process is experience 307 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,800 LED bio mechanics and that comes all the way up from our SVP 308 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,760 Carson. And so we're always thinking if 309 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,200 they're OK experience 1st and then either what are bio 310 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:10,520 mechanics metrics that can maybe create that experience or kind 311 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,280 of lead to it. But then also what are to start 312 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,440 tried and true. These have to show up every 313 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,400 shoe. And so the show up every shoe. 314 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,480 Bio mechanics are are habitual motion path deviations. 315 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,160 And I assume all tangent into that here at some point with the 316 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,520 habitual motion path. But what that is is really at a 317 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,360 high level individualized support, you could say. 318 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,520 And so it's just making sure that a shoe is not making you 319 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600 run really differently than your body habitually and naturally 320 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,360 wants to, and at least that our shoe is equal to or better than 321 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,840 anything on the market. We'll never like put a shoe out 322 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,800 that increases that difference. And so we study the habitual 323 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,680 motion at the ankle and the knee, and then every shoe that 324 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,440 we test will get that type of testing. 325 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,280 And then an example of say like an experience metric would be 326 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:06,280 like the ghost Max, we are really looking at MTPJ 327 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,000 dorsiflexion and reducing it in that shoe compared to a ghost. 328 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:14,000 Definitely part of that was a lot like the sports Med 329 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,400 application of just people with different forefoot clinical 330 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,560 problems such as metatarsalger bunions or things of that sort. 331 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:25,520 We know reducing motion there can help, but we also know that 332 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:28,400 that can help create like a rocker experience and kind of 333 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,080 that rocker transition experience, which was also part 334 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,280 of where we're going for from that experience standpoint. 335 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,920 So some shoes will have those extra metrics we attached to 336 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,640 them to help with kind of that experience and also 337 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,840 biomechanical purpose of them you could say. 338 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,560 And then do you want to talk elite or should I take a stab? 339 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:49,960 Cool. Yeah. 340 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,480 So elite that's really where no metabolics from that Physiology 341 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,120 side comes into play for sure. And then a really other key 342 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:02,040 parts that the team there is kind of looking into is a lot 343 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:03,760 with like the joint level energetics. 344 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,640 And so, you know, looking at this work metrics of the ankle 345 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,240 joint, you know, already seeing how those are changing or things 346 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,800 of that sort of, but really trying to bring in that 347 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:16,560 Physiology aspect with the elite project as well is definitely. 348 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:18,400 So if I'm hearing that correctly, a lot for the 349 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,160 recreational runner is you're focusing on biomechanical 350 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,720 factors that you know are related to experience. 351 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:26,960 So either geometries, for example, especially with the 352 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,560 four foot, which can create or a facilitate a really smooth ride 353 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,480 with additional thoughts about going right from a medical 354 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,160 standpoint, knowing kind of what the common pathologies out there 355 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,640 for this area. What can we do to facilitate 356 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,200 motion there for those who either might have it or if not, 357 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,240 create an experience that is comfortable, obviously makes 358 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,520 them want to keep running in the shoe because one of the biggest 359 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,000 predictors of footwear people want to use is for comfort. 360 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,800 So what how do we create that and that experience, Whereas the 361 00:17:55,800 --> 00:18:01,040 elite is you're looking more at the energetics, the efficiency, 362 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,680 especially at joint level going, how can we make them more 363 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:08,600 efficient especially for faster and longer efforts is kind of 364 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,240 the big not divide, but the differences in how you're 365 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:13,960 focusing in these areas. Yeah. 366 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,880 I mean, I think a main underlying theme is support 367 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,120 shows up through all of that. Like we will never compromise 368 00:18:20,120 --> 00:18:22,160 yet on support. It's just what are the 369 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,840 additional aspects we can quantify that you just talked 370 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:26,720 about? Got it. 371 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,400 I will say off topic, I've been meaning to bring this up Brooks 372 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,560 cluster and Max is awesome. I did not expect this, but this 373 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:36,400 might be shoot my shoe of the year. 374 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,920 And even though the slightly short fit is giving me just a 375 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,240 little bit of toe abrasion, I'm I still have 100 and I have 102 376 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,000 miles on this as of this recording. 377 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,280 So great job with that. When you're talking about the 378 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,080 four foot mic, you are doing a great job. 379 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:50,840 You 2 are doing a great job on this. 380 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:52,280 It's been really, really, really good. 381 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:53,880 Yeah. The team did really well. 382 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,840 So, so can we expand a little bit into that experience in 383 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,560 terms of the development for the recreational runner and where 384 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,720 kind of the big focuses are whether from if we want to go 385 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,760 down the bio mechanic standpoint or if we want to dive into the 386 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,840 hip vitro motion path right now. And I know that we throw this 387 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:13,920 term around and we especially in doctors running through this 388 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,400 term around and may not have defined as well as we probably 389 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,120 should have. So is that where you think we 390 00:19:19,120 --> 00:19:21,240 should go now? Is that worth diving into? 391 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,840 Into dive into habitual motion, or like some of the distinction 392 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:27,760 between the two. Both. 393 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:29,280 Where do you think we should go first? 394 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,440 We can. Think of options. 395 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,360 Yeah, we can maybe add just a little bit more on like the 396 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,800 Elite and the wreck. And then, and then maybe we can, 397 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,520 Evan can go into some bit about where we're really expanding the 398 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:45,040 habitual motion. I'd say once I'm in, I would 399 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:47,320 have added in the point of the building for the elite compared 400 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,080 to building for the rec is, is to really put that runner at the 401 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,720 center of the build. So we we engage with such a high 402 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,040 volume of runners in every shoe that we're building and their 403 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,160 needs are, are just different. So you can't like you can't just 404 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:03,840 take one. Let's say you take the elite and 405 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,360 you can't just tear, tear down, whatever, take a takedown of 406 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,400 that and say that's going to go. So we have a researcher on the 407 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,440 team who did a really great project just actually diving in 408 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,360 really deep with these categories, especially when 409 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:18,360 you're talking about race day or speed, speed oriented products, 410 00:20:18,360 --> 00:20:20,880 something maybe for more that marathon space. 411 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,920 And between the two groups, you have the same wants. 412 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,880 They all want lightweight. Responsive and fit, those are 413 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,960 like the top three prioritized aspects of the shoe that they 414 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,640 would talk about. But how they ranked within those 415 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:35,240 three, there were still like stark differences. 416 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,640 Like in the athlete space, it was like responsiveness hands 417 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:42,160 down #190% of people want that. That's going to be there. 418 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,680 And then you go into lightweight as your next one, which is still 419 00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,080 like a pretty good step. Change down and ranked 2nd, and 420 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,520 then fit is third and it's like a pretty, you know, separate 421 00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,840 3rd. So they had really big 422 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,000 differences in like what they want and the rec runner was like 423 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,440 responsiveness is pretty much even with with lightweight and 424 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,000 fit like they're I want all three and I need all three. 425 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,360 It wasn't like I that responsiveness is going to come. 426 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,600 And if you could also please get me those next two would be 427 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:07,680 great. It was like, no, I want all 428 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,840 three. So get me all three and make 429 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:13,560 sure they show up in a way that can last for me for durability. 430 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,720 That's also like the 4th ranked, 5th ranked one for the rec is 431 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:20,360 durability and that doesn't come up with like the elite space at 432 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:22,600 all. It's like I need, I don't, I 433 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,680 want the shoe to last. I don't want it to just be my 434 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:26,120 one and done. I can't just keep going and 435 00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:28,600 buying like these $200 shoes all the time. 436 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:32,600 And then support as everyone's talking about sport like it's 437 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,360 that's the 4th ranked highest attribute need for the rec 438 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:37,320 runner. And it's not that an elite 439 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,240 doesn't want it, but they don't. It's not the forefront. 440 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,000 It comes like way lower in the list of items, like of where 441 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,760 they think about that as much where it's like that rec runner. 442 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,200 It's like really in their headspace all the time of how to 443 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:48,520 make sure they're supported throughout it. 444 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,760 So just how you then prioritize what you're building into that 445 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,680 shoe where you cut weight in an upper and maybe sacrifice a 446 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:57,960 little bit of fit for like an advantage in lightweight. 447 00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:59,560 You're not going to do that on the rec runner. 448 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,800 Like they you want that fit to not have that sacrifice for them 449 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:04,920 to have the comfort and everything that goes through and 450 00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:06,720 just knowing where you're going to pull those dials a little 451 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,240 bit. That was the only bit I was 452 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,880 going to add about the difference between building for 453 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,120 the two. That's that's really interesting 454 00:22:12,120 --> 00:22:16,000 that the elites would have a much larger spread of prayer. 455 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,560 I mean, like the relatively of priorities compared to the 456 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,160 recreational running, running like wanting the whole package, 457 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,960 like all of these things. What I'm hearing is all these 458 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,600 things are important. So you have to be able to really 459 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,240 balance those out. And sounds like that actually 460 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:32,080 might be a little bit more challenging in my mind to create 461 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,080 something that balances all those because you could make 462 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,120 something responsive, you can make it light, but that some of 463 00:22:38,120 --> 00:22:41,960 that gets sacrificed in terms of comfort and stability and 464 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,440 certain things if you try to get those too far down. 465 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,880 So that feels like that might be more, yeah, might be more 466 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,480 challenging. Now, what happens with a shoe 467 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:55,840 like the Hyperion Max 2 where it's something that kind of, 468 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,280 correct me if I'm wrong, seems to be like kind of balancing? 469 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:02,720 Yes, it's a faster shoe, but it is trying to balance between the 470 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,720 elite and recreational runner. Is that a good way of 471 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,000 categorizing that shoe? And is that is that same concept 472 00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,640 there or is there a different view? 473 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:17,560 Is that still part of the elite footwear concept behind that? 474 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:20,440 Yeah, I would, I would say that you're spot on with that. 475 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:23,680 It's it really, but it does tread you get a little that shoe 476 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:27,680 can sometimes pick its camp like it leans a little heavy into 477 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,480 athlete or it can lean a little heavy wreck. 478 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,880 And it's like a really hard one to also balance to make sure 479 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,920 you're hitting kind of a sweet spot without like maybe still 480 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,120 letting lightweight be a key priority to pull out a little 481 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:43,200 bit more, but it's trying to balance in between the two 482 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:48,240 worlds a little bit more to to hit to hit that consumer use. 483 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,120 Yeah. And and I will say yeah, yeah, 484 00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:52,400 I. Was going to add on a little bit 485 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,120 there too, kind of examples of well, the next version of that 486 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,520 shoe, some fun things we're doing for testing. 487 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:01,680 Could think of more like athletes around maybe our 488 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,400 ability call like 32 to 35 minute 10 KS. 489 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,720 We're like sending, making sure we're getting them as well as we 490 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,320 obviously have it with the Beasts and the Hansens. 491 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,600 We get kind of that spread. But then we're also still 492 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,640 sending that shoe out to, you know, people that are running 493 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,280 down the spectrum of Speeds also. 494 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,400 And that's really that one where we're intently gathering 495 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,480 feedback from all the layers, you could say. 496 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,480 So that must be one of the more challenging way to balance the 497 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:33,160 greater spread versus the we want all these things together. 498 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,600 So I will say my comment and I, I will not pretend to be an 499 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:38,360 expert on this. This is just for me hanging 500 00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,400 around from really smart people like the two of you and getting 501 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,360 to hear for those listening, this is extremely hard to do. 502 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,920 This doesn't just happen after a single round of wear testing. 503 00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:50,040 This could take years and years and years of development, which 504 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,000 is why I always laugh when I'm talking to anyone in the 505 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,920 footwear industry and we're like, they're like, I'm like 506 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,560 mentioning some shooting like, Oh yeah, that just came out. 507 00:24:58,560 --> 00:24:59,680 Huh? I haven't heard of that shoot 508 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,840 for like 3 years. I'm like, Oh yeah, it takes a 509 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,120 long time. So there's, there's a lot that 510 00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:08,240 goes into this. So I'll kudos to both of you 511 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,440 that it's not a sit one and done process. 512 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,920 This takes lots and lots and lots of rounds of testing and 513 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:16,880 feedback to get where you want to be. 514 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:21,560 So kudos on that. So Speaking of which, we've 515 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,360 mentioned the habitual motion path. 516 00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:26,840 So how has that we've talked about this a little bit for, but 517 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,600 how is your understanding and application of the habitual 518 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,680 motion path change? So I mean, you were talking a 519 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,760 little bit about the idea of like creating sport and all the 520 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:36,120 footwear. What? 521 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:39,120 What does that mean now for Brooks compared to what it used 522 00:25:39,120 --> 00:25:39,920 to? Yeah. 523 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,560 If it's different, yeah, since a year and a half since we last 524 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,600 talked, it's definitely pushed a lot in what we've been doing 525 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,200 with it. So last time we were on, we were 526 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:55,160 talking about the habitual motion path at the time, the 527 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,080 real, the real focus was on quantifying the presence of a 528 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,720 deviation. And that's just how differently 529 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,240 your body moves when running compared to, I'd say, daily 530 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:09,520 normal movements. We just used one movement to 531 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,600 quantify someone's habitual motion path, which was a shallow 532 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,080 squat. And we would say, OK, that is 533 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,120 basically mimicking sitting down in a chair. 534 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,960 And it's also, you know, 50% body weight because you have two 535 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,920 legs on the ground. And a little bit just of a 536 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,080 quote, lighter load task. People can't see me here going 537 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,880 on audio, but you know, we'll get it. 538 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,280 For those who aren't, who are listening, Evan is air quoting. 539 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,600 Just a lighter load, lighter load, yeah. 540 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,960 But then we also only quantified the deviation at one time point 541 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,720 during the movement which was at maximum knee flexion. 542 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,280 So what you basically do is for quick RIP off of the math would 543 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:53,520 say you go down, you have, you know, your knee flexion and then 544 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:56,480 you have your maximum knee flexion from your run and say 545 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,880 that's at 20°. And you say like, OK, at 20°, if 546 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,200 I'm 5° internally rotated at my knee, but I was 10° internally 547 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,600 rotated at my squat, then that's a 5° deviation. 548 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:10,680 And you just kind of do a math of that sort. 549 00:27:11,120 --> 00:27:14,880 And we do that with internal rotation, which is just the 550 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,320 twisting at the knee joint and then ABA deduction or kind of 551 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,400 that knocking in knocking out and then E version or just that 552 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,240 pronation or rolling inward at the ankle. 553 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,200 And then are the three we look at the what we've done to 554 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:34,920 advance the habitual motion path is we really looked at one 555 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,160 movement as a limitation and then one time point as a 556 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,280 limitation. So phenomenal starting ground of 557 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,640 just like being able to establish this. 558 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,880 And we did have some good studies showcasing like, hey, 559 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,880 there is some merit here such like the Bill Bakker study where 560 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:52,440 we're looking at cartilage volumes before and after a run. 561 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,880 And so that people that did deviate more had more cartilage 562 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,840 compression, which we saw as a proxy for knee joint loading. 563 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,840 But we still think we can push it further. 564 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,960 So what we've done is we added more habitual movements. 565 00:28:08,360 --> 00:28:12,840 So we still keep the squat. We also then just added walking 566 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,120 into it. We have people walk downstairs 567 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,440 and then we also have them do we call it kind of like a shallow 568 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,880 lunge, but basically like mimics picking something up off the 569 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,000 ground. But our thinking with these 570 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,400 movements are were what are movements that people just do 571 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,520 day in, day out? And that means your body's very 572 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,440 like used to them. It's very habitual. 573 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,280 But then they also provide more range of motion, at least in the 574 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,160 satchel plane than running. So you can do the comparisons 575 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,960 that you need to when it comes to looking at how different 576 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,520 joint angles are matching up. So that was one key part of it. 577 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,160 And then the second part of it was now using the entire stance 578 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:59,400 phase to quantify deviation. So instead of just that one time 579 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,240 point, we use basically the entire Stan. 580 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,560 So from heel contact to toe off in this each joint angle to go 581 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,640 super, super math in depth, we use what's called a kernel 582 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,040 density plot, but think of them as like fun little like manta 583 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,640 rays or Rorschach figures. And depending on how much those 584 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:24,760 overlap or not is our deviation. And that has really allowed us 585 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,880 to have just more information about the movement you could 586 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,000 say, which has been really beneficial. 587 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:38,120 And we published that method out earlier this year, which is a 588 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,680 really exciting milestone for us to showcase. 589 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:45,960 Pushing that forward and then backing up the key second part 590 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,960 of the whole standards is we also do what we call weighting 591 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,120 it. So the first visual motion path 592 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,760 deviation method was all kinematic based or just motion. 593 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,040 Now we use the vertical ground reaction force, basically a 594 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:02,880 measure of how hard you're hitting the ground, ground hits 595 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,880 you back and to say like weight, the deviation. 596 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,960 And so joint angles that are happening at higher forces get 597 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,200 just quote, like weighted a little bit more or they 598 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,280 basically mean more. And we did that because we think 599 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,240 of it as there's just more load going through the body at that 600 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,320 point. And so there's a deviation when 601 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,760 there's more load, it probably means more from like an injury 602 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:34,240 standpoint, you could say. So that was the key advancements 603 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:37,440 that also are out there right now from like public knowledge. 604 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,120 And then we have a couple more that we've been doing internally 605 00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,080 that we presented out at ASB, which is American Society of Bio 606 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:52,440 Mechanics, which was looking at that whole stance phase and now 607 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:58,920 breaking it down into phases. So what was interesting was with 608 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:01,640 the whole stance phase, while we get a lot of really good 609 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:05,120 information, we found ourselves having to kind of be like, OK, 610 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,600 we have this deviation, but when is it happening? 611 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,080 Because the first method you knew when that deviation was 612 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,880 being quantified, but now it's kind of like, well, is it the 613 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,960 first part of stance? Is it push off? 614 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,880 Is it mid stance? You know, when are these 615 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,320 differences in movement occurring? 616 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:32,400 And so shout out to my Co worker Rebecca Pallone, who coded up 617 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,840 basically how to do this probably the idea and she ran 618 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:38,320 with it. And So what we do now is we 619 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:44,360 break the stance phase into just like equal 20% buckets and we 620 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:50,000 did 20% because they, those phases do roughly correlate with 621 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:54,000 some gate events of the foot. So from zero to 20% is usually 622 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,280 like heel contact a foot flat foot usually stays flat from 623 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:03,080 about 20 to 60%. And then it's 60% roughly for 624 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,440 the average person when the heels comes off the ground. 625 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,600 And then 60 to 80 your heels generally off the ground. 626 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,800 We had to keep equal sized buckets for I'll say math 627 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,480 purposes basically. But what it's really allowed us 628 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:23,320 to do is you get really more granular information in the 629 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,480 product testing itself. So for instance, like we've had 630 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,160 some shoes where the entire stance phase deviation looks 631 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,440 good, but then all of a sudden you're like, oh, well, we're 632 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,640 actually no better in the first part of stance, but then we're 633 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,720 worse in push off. So we're still learning of like 634 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,040 where do we need to go in and really optimize geometries of 635 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,400 shoes based upon basically how that support is coming through 636 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:49,600 all the way from the heel to the toe. 637 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,200 I my brain needs to process that for a second. 638 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,600 So many questions. That's awesome. 639 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,200 So it's so you are now while beforehand, correct me if I'm 640 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,160 wrong, you were looking at kind of gross girl. 641 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:04,400 That's not the right way to say this. 642 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,640 You were looking at kinematics, but what you've been able to 643 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,040 know as now is separate this to go what's actually happening at 644 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,040 each part of the gate cycle and the hopefully being able to the 645 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,880 stance space specifically. And for those who don't know, 646 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,360 stance means when your foot is on the ground. 647 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,400 That is what we're talking about. 648 00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,960 When it lifts off and you're swinging through the air, that's 649 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,960 called swing phase. So you're able to look at and 650 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,880 essentially look biomechanically at comfort factors, habitual 651 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,360 molten pathways, looking at what happens right as you land to 652 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,280 that initial contact loading response. 653 00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:36,120 What happens as you transition the body over that You're moving 654 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,480 into that mid stance phase. What happens as you get into 655 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,400 that terminal stance like pre swing where the foots coming 656 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:44,120 off? So you're able to like, pinpoint 657 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,840 exactly what's happening at each one of those and compare. 658 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,280 Is this actually comfortable at each one of these points? 659 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,560 Yep, exactly. That sounds like a lot of data 660 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,760 to process. It's a lot because now we have 661 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:01,040 more metrics that come into the discussion of, you know, when we 662 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,280 go to pass or fail issue or things of that sort. 663 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,720 But it does it's good because it takes guesswork out of things 664 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,480 and just really allows us to hone in on the affected 665 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,120 different geometries in the shoot and kind of seeing that 666 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,000 direct, direct influence they have on the human. 667 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,800 Violence and I don't know if you can answer this question so if 668 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,080 we can cut this out if we need is are there any shoes that are 669 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,320 on the market currently where this newer concept has been 670 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,760 applied or not not yet I'm. Trying to remember Blister and 671 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,639 Max had it. I know the S. 672 00:34:33,639 --> 00:34:34,760 You did a pretty good job with this. 673 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,719 So that's why I was like, I wonder if this or Max did that 674 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:42,280 get that treatment? I think Spring 25, how about 675 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:46,679 this with the updated method of like using the whole stance 676 00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:50,040 phase? Yes, those products are the 677 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:55,480 phase analysis I think is coming S 25 products. 678 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,920 So they're coming up here soon. Sweet, this is another way to 679 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,000 get hyped about those products. So now I'm even more excited. 680 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,720 So this is. Great, I love. 681 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,880 It Jen, is there anything else that you would add on? 682 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,200 Yeah. I think for where we're going 683 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,680 even next steps with it, those were those are some of the very 684 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,760 tangible methods we're doing now in house with all of our product 685 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:23,400 creation cycles is generally also understanding how people so 686 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,320 habitual motion is the core of all what we believe 687 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,680 kinematically. So what that's everyone has a 688 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,800 way they move and if you can keep them closer to that 689 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,240 movement, they will optimally they will ultimately have better 690 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,400 performance on the run and less aches and pains. 691 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,800 So you'll reduce energetic cost and then you'll reduce joint 692 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:40,280 loads, which can lead to injuries. 693 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:44,200 So that's our ultimate goal. But understanding that there's 694 00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:47,040 different ways that people have this habitual motion. 695 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,520 So like these clusterings of habitual motion, whether you're 696 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,040 somebody that has a lot of rigidity in your habitual motion 697 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,600 and it's just the way that your body is either from the laxity 698 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,040 of your joints or past injuries or anything else. 699 00:35:58,040 --> 00:35:59,200 And that's where your comfort is. 700 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,600 And those that are really flexible and you can't just 701 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,400 build the same way for these people. 702 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,760 So if you're trying to have options in your line for keeping 703 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,920 people close to these habitual motions, but there's different 704 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,680 types of habitual motions and you need to create the options 705 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:15,800 in in your for actual product line. 706 00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,520 So we went through phases with, you know, this Max cushion. 707 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,760 Does our glycerin become the like the glycerin Max originally 708 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:24,280 was like, is it just going to be the glycerin? 709 00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,760 Now you're going to take this shoe that's fairly flexible and 710 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:32,000 a glycerin and completely remove all that flexibility by the time 711 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,560 you'd make it, what is now the Max? 712 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,840 And it was this internal tension point of like what to do of 713 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,960 whether you make another shoe, a whole another shoe and let the 714 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,800 glycerin stay and be what it is or you absorb it because you 715 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,920 know, Max cushion is what the glycerin is supposed to be 716 00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,240 anyways. And we decided to keep them 717 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,560 separate because we thought you're going to alienate a lot 718 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:55,160 of people's bio mechanics and how people move if you just make 719 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,880 everything big. But you want to have the big 720 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,400 Kush Max rocker option for those that this really is an optimal 721 00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:04,000 space for them. So it's this balance of how many 722 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,280 shoe options you make, you know, to balance out how many habitual 723 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,680 motions we believe are out there and how many different clusters 724 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:11,760 of movement patterns are natural for people. 725 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,880 And that's where you want to let them have have that breathing 726 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,880 room. And I'd say we're also evolving 727 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,000 a lot of you're kind of limited what you can collect in house to 728 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,760 have someone come in and run a test with us. 729 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,080 It's like a 2, two and a half hour process. 730 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,440 They run in six shoes. You really get maybe 5 minutes 731 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,000 in each shoes. So it's still like a pretty 732 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,760 short window to get an idea of how the shoes impact and how you 733 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,840 move. And so we've done a lot more 734 00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,960 long runs in house everywhere from 30 minutes to an hour where 735 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:40,000 people naturally like self, self initiate fatigue. 736 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,720 They'll say that they're fatigued and done to see what 737 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:44,760 happens from the start all the way to the end of your run. 738 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,560 So there's also a lot in how we're evolving. 739 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,640 Like we used to talk about that you're either a high deviator or 740 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,120 a low deviator. You're somebody who stays close 741 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,480 to your habitual motion. You're someone that isn't, 742 00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,560 you're someone that needs support or you're someone that 743 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,360 isn't. That's like still even what's 744 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,680 currently if you went through our gear Finder, that's how it's 745 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,040 set up. But we know that from our from 746 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,480 how many runners we've had in everybody needs support. 747 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,080 It still can come up in a gradual level, but we believe 748 00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,840 that support isn't everything. It's not an absence of it and 749 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,440 how to get at that foundational level of support and product and 750 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,280 help guide people still to either what one choose best for 751 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,200 them or for some. It will be multiple depending on 752 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:23,520 whether you run flat Rd. all the time or if you're running hills. 753 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,600 If you're running up and down hills, you're running different 754 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,560 paces. You have a variety of run types. 755 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,360 Your mechanics will be different which each of those environments 756 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,280 and you can match product better to those environments to support 757 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:34,680 you optimally in each one of those. 758 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,520 Or if you're like me, I run the same run over and over. 759 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,520 So I can live with one type of shoe probably if I didn't want a 760 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,400 different like experience. But my mechanics are are 761 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,920 satisfied in like 1 genre of construction. 762 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,920 So those are also evolutions I'd say in the thinking of like who 763 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,920 needs support and we think it's everybody and how does support 764 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:56,320 show up? It needs to show up in different 765 00:38:56,320 --> 00:38:58,560 constructs. It can't be Max Kush for 766 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:03,680 everyone because of of knowing that people have these different 767 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,160 habitual motions that we can cluster. 768 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,200 And so when you say so, I have a 12 questions. 769 00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,880 One should be hopefully not too bad, the other one might be a 770 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:12,880 little rough. So very. 771 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:14,880 I've also been trying to figure it out too. 772 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,200 When you say support, you're meaning in reference to the 773 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:23,120 habitual motion pathway, not like, oh, this exactly has to 774 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:24,920 have medial posts. We're moving away from that 775 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,800 going, can we create footwear that facilitates your normal 776 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,720 motion? And that may or may not involve 777 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,160 a post, a guide rail, all that kind of stuff. 778 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,840 But we have a lot more options now to do that. 779 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,840 Is that correct? Got it. 780 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:39,360 So the follow up question, this has been asked for years. 781 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,320 Do you think run categories are going to move away from the 782 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,880 neutral stability categories? And do you think it's going to 783 00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:52,080 be a different blend or if you had to organize a shoe wall, how 784 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,760 would you 2 organize it? Yeah. 785 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,760 I did warn you to sorry. So there's obviously like the 786 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,320 trade and the bio mechanics. So I'll, I'll only speak to bio 787 00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:06,120 mechanics. I won't speak to the trade part 788 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:11,320 of it. Bio mechanically, we we believe 789 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,160 that it should be like support for all support is support isn't 790 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,640 everything that we're building. There isn't like this option of 791 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,360 no support, which is what a neutral is thought of from that 792 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:23,000 sense. And then how support shows up 793 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,160 for you would be a combination of. 794 00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,120 Understanding how you move in that habitual space where you're 795 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,840 moving. So again, if you're doing hills, 796 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:33,840 flat paces or not, and then experientially just what you 797 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,320 want to feel under foot. And for some people maybe want 798 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:39,280 you is like, you got to live in this one space and some might be 799 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,760 here's your quiver, here's like 4 that'll work really well for 800 00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:43,720 you because of the variety of run and how it shows up. 801 00:40:44,240 --> 00:40:46,800 So we would organize I think more by brand, which in the 802 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,240 North America is a bit more common to see it by brand. 803 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,280 That's not globally. So such the case. 804 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,560 But if we were staying within our own shoe wall, I think we'd 805 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:01,480 organize it more by these different ways support shows up, 806 00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,520 but it is support is in all of them. 807 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:04,760 That's not part of the conversation. 808 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,160 It's not whether you need support or not. 809 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:09,120 It's what type of support is going to maximize your run. 810 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,080 Evan, anything to add or anything, any different 811 00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,280 thoughts? No, I think Jen did it really 812 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:14,640 well. Yeah. 813 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:19,640 It's a combination of, yeah, just biomechanically what you 814 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,080 need. But I do think the environment 815 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:25,240 is such a big factor there. We've had a couple of 816 00:41:25,240 --> 00:41:27,960 researchers internally, Eddie Martinez and Kaylee Dear, 817 00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,440 they've been doing some like graded running studies and 818 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,840 looking at support across shoes and then covering some findings 819 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,760 that way. Megan Saptich internally from 820 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,120 the team looking at like support at different speeds. 821 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,320 And we're we're finding really intriguing results to roll into 822 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,600 products. And that's just the bio 823 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,480 mechanics lens. But then from the environment 824 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,560 side, I'll actually quote you guys. 825 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,840 I think it was David was on one of them and they were talking 826 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,440 about like the half marathons that go like way uphill. 827 00:41:56,240 --> 00:41:59,320 And he said himself, he's like, yeah, you know, big cushioned 828 00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,000 rocker shoes, kind of sluggish uphill. 829 00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,320 And they're like, well, you have to fight that. 830 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,200 That's not supportive, right? And So what those behaviors are 831 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:10,840 and where you're running is such a influence on which shoe will 832 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,960 work well for you. So yeah, it is. 833 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,360 Everything needs support. It's just based on, you know, 834 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,960 call it different movement groups that we can Bucky you in, 835 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,960 but then also what are just different types of support texts 836 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:27,200 or geometries that work for different? 837 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,800 Environments and so Jen, you represent there. 838 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,840 There's going to be a variety of responses to this. 839 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,320 There are some people that can only live in one level and 840 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,200 that's just who they are or what they have the greatest success 841 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,600 with and that's great. There's other people that can 842 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:44,920 have a quiver and when you say a quiver, is that both that they 843 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:50,680 can handle a variety of things or is it they they are able to 844 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,880 adjust? I don't know how to answer this 845 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:54,640 question. I don't know why my brain is not 846 00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,800 working. Do you see where I'm going? 847 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,760 With, yeah, I think maybe I'll ramble and I'll see if it lands 848 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,640 at all. I think it will be a bit of both 849 00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,080 in those. So like I think that there will 850 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:07,640 be people that you have either pain free movement for you shows 851 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,640 up in in one or limited way. Like my poor husband, I always 852 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,680 use him as an example, but he has OA in his toes and so like 853 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,800 really flexing of the toes is not an option for him and the 854 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,120 Max's. So like for, I think, I'm sure 855 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:23,080 when we were even on the call last time, we didn't have the 856 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:27,600 Ghost Max yet and he was having to wear ballads and I was like, 857 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,120 no, I at least work there. So like I don't feel as bad 858 00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,080 about it. But how do we not have something 859 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,720 that you can use? And then we would think of Ghost 860 00:43:36,720 --> 00:43:37,840 Max. I was like finally. 861 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,040 So he just now he just has like 8 pairs of Ghost Max. 862 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:45,160 So he'll wear that one, but that he'll be limited in what he can 863 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:46,040 use. But he's very active. 864 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,240 He's a very active person. He just has pain. 865 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,800 And if he has, if he's not in this very limited motion space, 866 00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,560 that works for him, right, Kitty? 867 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,000 Yeah. So that's where where he'll 868 00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:02,320 live. Others, I think whether if you 869 00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,360 do not have presupposed injury or something that like limits in 870 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,080 general where you do or do not feel pain, then that will open 871 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:10,240 you up automatically. And then also just your variety 872 00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:12,120 of runs. There's people again, who run 873 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,560 uphill, downhill, fast-paced, slow paced, and to really hit 874 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,320 each of those environments optimally, you would have 875 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,320 product that works great for you. 876 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,480 And as long as you can do it pain free, then we'll have the 877 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:22,560 construction. And then you're once again like 878 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,560 me that run the same route and I like run flat, then I probably 879 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:31,160 don't need the quiver. I might like how it feels, but 880 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:34,200 biomechanically I'm I'm moving in pretty similar way the whole 881 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,800 time. I like that. 882 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,800 I like also, yes, it's the some people might just be able to 883 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,920 live in the certain areas. Some people are either adaptable 884 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,280 or they want those different experiences. 885 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,000 So that's why the Brooks line is designed to be able what, what 886 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,760 are these experience? So what are these levels of 887 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,360 support that we can provide? And can we get the biggest the a 888 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:56,560 complete or as close as possible to a complete spectrum that we 889 00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:59,760 think is going to be able to match the needs of a variety of 890 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:03,240 runners. Or as Evan, I think Evan, you 891 00:45:03,240 --> 00:45:06,520 said that like there are certain kind of camps or categories that 892 00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,800 certain people might fit into and doing. 893 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:12,080 Can we get better at identifying those so we can actually design 894 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,960 footwear around those individual needs? 895 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:17,880 Which is probably pretty hard because humans are pretty 896 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,120 variable and like to like not fit in boxes half the time. 897 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,960 So I'm very impressed that trying to quantify this. 898 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,040 Welcome to my it's. Really frustrating sometimes. 899 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,920 Yeah, you balance, you live in a balance all the time with trying 900 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,760 to simplify. You want to make it as simple as 901 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:34,680 possible. Like we, we internally went 902 00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,800 through again this dialogue of like, does Max become 903 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,040 everything? That's your whole thing. 904 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,040 We'll just make Max shoes and that is support. 905 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:41,920 Because if you make 5 different types of sports, it's too 906 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:43,840 confusing how you going to explain it, how you going to 907 00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:45,840 help people get to the ones that's best for them. 908 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,160 So if it's one that's really easy, it's like, well, yeah, 909 00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,920 it's easy to explain, then it's one. 910 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,640 So like if it's not the one that's good for you, you have no 911 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,440 other options. But that's this like really 912 00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,360 difficult balance we keep living in of like how many options to 913 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,840 make? How can you explain it to 914 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:03,320 people? How do you make it approachable 915 00:46:03,720 --> 00:46:05,720 when it's, especially if it's in a space where you're not going 916 00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:06,960 to have someone who can explain it to you. 917 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,600 It's on a wall in a in a location that doesn't have a 918 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:12,720 person explaining the product line to you. 919 00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:18,000 So that that's reality of selling product and how to find 920 00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:21,160 that balance. Or it's online or it's in other 921 00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:23,160 areas. So trying to figure out, OK, how 922 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:26,760 so you're trying to go beyond, beyond obviously just trying to 923 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,240 make a shoe, but it's, it's how do we create experience, but 924 00:46:29,240 --> 00:46:32,080 also how do we educate people on figuring out what's going to be 925 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,600 optimal to them? We're not just trying to sell 926 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:34,760 them a shoe. We're trying to sell that. 927 00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:37,800 We're trying to create an experience and as you, as we've 928 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,160 talked before, it's you don't want to injure people, you want 929 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,000 to keep people healthy and help them figure out what they might 930 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,960 actually need or work better with. 931 00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:49,400 And, and it's not an easy task. It's usually a longer learning 932 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,600 experience sometimes. Sweet. 933 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,480 Evan, is there anything you would add on to that in terms of 934 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:58,400 the educate like what you're seeing in terms of how do you 935 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,720 understand who fits and what like the educational component 936 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,440 of helping people figure that out or is that A and? 937 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,800 That's a, that's a really good question, something I'd say like 938 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,600 we're actively working on regarding quantification tools 939 00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,400 and in the wild per SE. It is out for an everyday 940 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,680 consumer. I do think right now the way I'd 941 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:26,880 answer it is if you put a shoe on and it feels supportive in a 942 00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:28,840 way that like you define support. 943 00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,720 So some people may, for example, like they like a guide rail 944 00:47:32,720 --> 00:47:34,720 because they like a firmer feeling under their foot. 945 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,080 Some people may look at that glycerin Max and say this is 946 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:40,600 support because it's just a ton of cushion. 947 00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:43,560 Some people like that upper really locking them down is 948 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,040 their key definition of support. And so however, as an 949 00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:50,440 individual, you define support kind of yourself, like that's 950 00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,760 one way to do it. And then the other way is, well, 951 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:59,400 it's an Ant and or another way to really think about support 952 00:47:59,400 --> 00:48:01,800 coming through is like, does it feel like it works for you? 953 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,240 So if there's anything on the shoe like say if you land and 954 00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:08,320 you feel push you inward, it's probably not going to be 955 00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,080 something great. You want that shoe to feel like 956 00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,600 it's really just meshing with your foot. 957 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,160 And that's really where like that comfort filter concept 958 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:19,040 comes into play for sure. Is is it work with your body 959 00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,960 heel to toe or and feel supportive in a way that you 960 00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:23,520 like? This is why I love you too and 961 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,120 having you on because you have now completely forced my brain 962 00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:29,560 to rethink my definition of support. 963 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:33,640 So thank you because what I use as my high horse, I was like or 964 00:48:33,640 --> 00:48:37,560 my my soapbox like, OK, support is not equal to cushion. 965 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,080 It's, it's defined by the like rigidity or resistance or 966 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,040 facilitation, a forward motion and resisting frontal plane 967 00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,040 motion. And now I'm realizing that that 968 00:48:47,040 --> 00:48:50,200 definition is completely wrong. And you both have given me 969 00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:52,400 multiple answers about how that's wrong. 970 00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:58,320 And the term support is far more encompassing than I really gave 971 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,040 it credit for. So I can't be like, oh, 972 00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,360 cushioning doesn't mean support. When in fact, actually, as we 973 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:06,200 talked about going uphill or how the foam compresses under foot 974 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,080 and facilitates motion is totally a form of support. 975 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,600 How the upper contacts the foot and holds a foot on the platform 976 00:49:12,720 --> 00:49:17,240 is totally former support. And I have to get better at also 977 00:49:17,240 --> 00:49:19,960 talking about this and not being so like it's only this. 978 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,320 And so I I appreciate that and also gives me more respect for 979 00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,160 going how many different ways you can talk about support and 980 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,640 what that probably means to the runner instead of telling them, 981 00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:31,680 no, you're wrong. It's this, it's like, oh wait, 982 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:32,920 how are you defining this? A. 983 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,720 Lot of different ways, yeah. So is that you both have 984 00:49:37,720 --> 00:49:40,480 probably been defining it like that for a long time. 985 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,760 When did you have that switch recently or has that been a 986 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:47,000 longer like thought process You had to go yeah, no support. 987 00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,560 Is this multi factorial thing that's not just the old way, 988 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,680 which is I will admit that I'm defining it as is like is there 989 00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,240 a post? Is there a side wall? 990 00:49:55,240 --> 00:49:58,960 Is there rigidity side to side? I'm assuming you 2 have been 991 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:01,080 thinking about this that not that way for a while. 992 00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,760 Yeah. I mean, I would say that not 993 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,520 that way in a while in the sense that even for example, like a 994 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:11,960 ghost, which has been defined in this neutral air quoting and 995 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:17,240 joining the air foot land neutral space products, we test 996 00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,840 that shoe every time we build it in house still with runners 997 00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:21,920 coming in and seeing if it's keeping you close to your 998 00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,480 habitual motion. So in general for us always, we 999 00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,040 know that biomechanically support needs to show up in 1000 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,240 every single shoe that we build, whether it's getting categorized 1001 00:50:30,240 --> 00:50:33,280 as a neutral shoe or sport shoe in the current paradigm of how 1002 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,400 how the trade works. So that has always been there in 1003 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,400 the 7-8 years that I've been at Brooks in terms of that 1004 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,640 awareness of sport in terms of like really talking in this 1005 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,760 holistic space. That's, that's also been there. 1006 00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,200 I'd say the whole time I've been at Brooks in the sense of we 1007 00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,120 have like 8 biomechanical influencers we'll talk about and 1008 00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:55,400 it's the tooling on the top. So everything under your foot 1009 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,680 and everything on top of your foot and how that's how that is 1010 00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,640 getting your body through the stride basically and keeping it 1011 00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,960 as close as it can. But you'd again, like by the 1012 00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,720 time you have to go consumer facing with some of that, it's 1013 00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:10,680 just too complicated. If you're going to, you're not 1014 00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,600 going to break out eight different types of support in 1015 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,680 your upper combined with 10 different types of support in 1016 00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:17,080 your tooling and then or which one is your best combo. 1017 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,320 Like those get real difficult to make these bespoke solutions. 1018 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:25,760 So there's a there's a balance still in how much you're 1019 00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:28,000 communicating outwardly and what you're building behind the 1020 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,800 scenes in terms of hurting people's brains when trying to. 1021 00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:35,280 To get at it. So do I not need to or not need 1022 00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,160 to go write all the rewrite all the stability sections for QR? 1023 00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,120 But right, that was a couple of years. 1024 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,080 Ago Stability or support I. Thought. 1025 00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:46,040 I would say those are two different terms and that's shout 1026 00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:49,000 out to Eddie Martinez to having many conversations about that 1027 00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,280 with me. Got it. 1028 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,800 Could you elaborate that on that for the listener and viewer? 1029 00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:58,400 Yeah, I think support is, oh, this is my personal opinion. 1030 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:01,480 Support is kind of what I was mentioned earlier, like you can 1031 00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,640 have your own personal definitions and maybe what 1032 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,080 you're looking for. But then I would say through the 1033 00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:11,040 lens of the habitual motion path, solving that support 1034 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,240 because it's not a directional response with the habitual 1035 00:52:14,240 --> 00:52:16,000 motion path. Like you may need to be like 1036 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,160 freed up, which is not what traditional support is. 1037 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:26,040 Whereas I would say stability is the classic like lock the foot 1038 00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,400 up, like increase bending stiffness, increase torsional 1039 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:32,920 stiffness, firm things up, and just like a stable structure, 1040 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:36,000 think of like a pyramid, the more you add, the wider it gets, 1041 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,520 the more stable that thing is. And I'd say it's more 1042 00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:41,320 directional response in that way. 1043 00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,880 You could think of like add more, make it stiffer, more 1044 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:47,440 stable, but that's not what everyone needs for an optimal 1045 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:48,960 support. Yeah. 1046 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:52,720 And so we need to move away. This has been known in the 1047 00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:54,840 research world and your world for a long time. 1048 00:52:54,840 --> 00:52:59,160 But we need to continue to move away from mixing support and 1049 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:02,320 stability. Stability is its own, its its 1050 00:53:02,320 --> 00:53:05,480 own peace. Correct me if I'm wrong, of 1051 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:07,800 support. Some people need a ton, some 1052 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,840 people need little to none. But the concept of support is 1053 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:13,640 how do we, it's the habitual motion pathway. 1054 00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,640 How do we facilitate your motion in the most comfortable way that 1055 00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,440 works for you? But that is not equal to 1056 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,160 stability. They're two separate components, 1057 00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:25,720 so because I labeled the stability section, I don't have 1058 00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:28,240 to go right and right like. You're saving you some work, 1059 00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:29,800 sweet. Thank. 1060 00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,800 You appreciate that. Yeah, appreciate it. 1061 00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,520 I will still approach this differently going. 1062 00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,800 How am I defining this? So I appreciate you taking me 1063 00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,320 along for that journey. So last kind of big section that 1064 00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:44,600 I wanted or question, I wanted to talk to you both about and I 1065 00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,800 know this now as I finally finished my PhD and now in a 1066 00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,360 lab, bio mechanics lab trying to fonder my way through it. 1067 00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,200 So I might come calling you crying as I usually have during 1068 00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:54,920 the PhD. Now afterwards going, how do you 1069 00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:58,760 do this? So when you test people in lab, 1070 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,760 there are great things you can find, like you can hook people 1071 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,640 up to all the wonderful cameras and the expensive treadmills and 1072 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,600 all this stuff and get this great kinetic and kinematic 1073 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,920 data. But and you're able to get 1074 00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:13,520 people out of the world and come in for an hour, which is awesome 1075 00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,640 because you can get a better idea what fatigue looks at like. 1076 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,040 But you've also been talking about testing runners in the 1077 00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,440 real world because what they do on the treadmill does not always 1078 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:25,200 correlate to what happens in the real world. 1079 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:29,080 So you can give us a little view into what testing runners in the 1080 00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,120 real world means and how that's evolved your understanding of 1081 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,160 footwear development. Yeah, definitely. 1082 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,960 We had, we just gave a tour a couple weeks ago, some folks 1083 00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:41,880 coming in and they were asking us about the equipment. 1084 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:45,160 We have three, you know, motion capture bays set up in the lab. 1085 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:47,680 And it was all about like, oh, what are the, what are the 1086 00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,040 advancements in this technology that you're using in the lab? 1087 00:54:50,040 --> 00:54:53,000 And we kind of looked up and we were like, we're actually not 1088 00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,160 advancing in here. These are real good. 1089 00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:57,400 These like these, they got it in check. 1090 00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,840 We're we're trying to get out of here. 1091 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,320 This is what we're that's where we're trying to advance is to 1092 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:05,640 leave this room, not leave that room behind. 1093 00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:08,920 It is the end, like you've learned a lot in that room, but 1094 00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:10,800 to still the point. I was going to say if you don't 1095 00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,520 want any of that stuff I will happily take anything as I was 1096 00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:15,920 drooling when I came up to going. 1097 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:18,880 You have all. This we can get in this very 1098 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,320 accurate space of motion capture, but it is a very tiny, 1099 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:24,920 tiny glimpse into what that runner is experiencing. 1100 00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,360 So what I mean like you can get into the debates about treadmill 1101 00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:30,200 and Overground running. Let's just say for the sake of 1102 00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,040 it, treadmill's accurate enough, then you would still get out. 1103 00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:34,440 Like this is a very short moment of time that you are in this 1104 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:38,840 room with us running for us. And you when you look at 1105 00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,560 people's watch metrics of these variety of runs, people run a 1106 00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:45,280 mass variety. You're going uphill, downhill, 1107 00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:47,520 some days totally flat, others this pace, that pace, total 1108 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:49,600 distances. Like it's just not even remote. 1109 00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,160 Like if you had to find one dot out of the 70 dots that are run 1110 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,320 for somebody that would even remotely reflect what you saw in 1111 00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,720 the lab, it would be one out of those 70. 1112 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:00,480 So like you're really not getting a holistic understanding 1113 00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,400 of what that person is is dealing with or not dealing with 1114 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,440 sounds negative is experiencing out in their world. 1115 00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,280 So we really want to invest in in wearable technology that lets 1116 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,400 us understand them in their environment so that you you can 1117 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:17,680 really cater to understanding what's unique to them or a 1118 00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,600 cluster like them so that you can make better recommendations 1119 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,440 and inform them with education on the product that would 1120 00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:26,680 optimize their experience. Ultimately, whether that's 1121 00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,600 watch, we still lean into the watch with our partnership with 1122 00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:32,480 Dash and what we can understand from your own environment more 1123 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:35,040 so in your literal environment like pace and distance and then 1124 00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,080 some weather aspects and things you deal with there. 1125 00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:42,480 The movement mechanics are are not very accurately captured 1126 00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,320 within a watch. So more Imus and where we bring 1127 00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,000 that wearable tech out to understand again, the variety 1128 00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,320 that you're running in and how your support needs will change 1129 00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,880 depending on that environment that you're in that day. 1130 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,960 So that's really where we're pushing is how we get out into 1131 00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:02,280 their domain with them. And we already do that in a 1132 00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,200 perception based all of our surveys. 1133 00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,760 I mean you hear a lot more from the runner. 1134 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,000 They get the shoe for six weeks. They do tell us the different 1135 00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,200 types of runs they use the product in and what worked and 1136 00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,640 what didn't work for them. So you're at least getting that 1137 00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,560 via their words, which mean a lot and and you can learn a lot 1138 00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,080 from that as a starting base. But being able to capture what 1139 00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:23,200 they don't know, like they can't describe their movement 1140 00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:24,560 mechanics. They don't know what is 1141 00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:26,960 happening to their body the entire time they're out there. 1142 00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:28,840 That's what we want to keep pushing. 1143 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:31,240 That's awesome. For those who made the listeners 1144 00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:33,800 and viewers that don't know. Can you define what an IMU? 1145 00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:39,840 Is an inertial measurement unit the little device you can slap 1146 00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:41,880 on your shoe and then you can get a better feeling for how 1147 00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,840 much your ankle is moving and rolling to give us proxy to some 1148 00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,280 of the more like very specific measurements you get from a 1149 00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:49,840 motion capture camera. Sweet. 1150 00:57:50,400 --> 00:57:55,280 There's become more frequently used in some areas of research 1151 00:57:55,640 --> 00:57:57,560 just to be able to capture that rear world stuff, because then 1152 00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,440 you don't have to follow them around with the camera system, 1153 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:01,560 which looks awkward when they're running around, running around 1154 00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:02,560 town. I'm just kidding. 1155 00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,160 So what? What other metrics are you 1156 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,200 looking at that might help you define or not define, but get a 1157 00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,720 better picture of how people are responding to footwear? 1158 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:13,840 And I guess the thought question is what are you doing with it? 1159 00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:20,040 The well where we're expanding a lot besides getting out, so the 1160 00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:22,760 out, getting out with the runner in the wild is our biggest kind 1161 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,480 of movement mechanic initiative. So where we want to understand 1162 00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,880 what you look like and how it relates to the habitual motion 1163 00:58:28,880 --> 00:58:31,560 that's very kind of outward motion facing. 1164 00:58:32,080 --> 00:58:35,240 We're advancing Physiology. So we've never had Physiology 1165 00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:38,320 directly in our scope of research at Brooks. 1166 00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,880 We would do energetic cost in terms of the elite product, but 1167 00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:44,360 it was very narrow. Like that's one little teeny 1168 00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:48,200 piece of pie that we were trying to understand in terms of what 1169 00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,520 impact movement has on the body and how that will influence your 1170 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,080 performance and your injury at the end of the day. 1171 00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:56,200 And specifically, we're focusing a lot more on muscle damage, 1172 00:58:56,200 --> 00:59:01,040 what you can understand from salivary biomarkers and how your 1173 00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,000 environment and the product is influencing muscle damage and 1174 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,440 then thermal regulation. And then particularly for us, 1175 00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,320 more now talking about hot, how you deal with hot and we'll 1176 00:59:09,320 --> 00:59:11,280 maybe eventually get to how you deal in cold. 1177 00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:15,240 But as a first entry point, bringing physio into our our 1178 00:59:15,240 --> 00:59:19,520 space was really beating the heat and how you do that with 1179 00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:22,240 product, how you do that with education. 1180 00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:26,840 In terms of hydration, we have an amazing physiologist, 1181 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:31,360 Bridget, who joined our team and she can measure your sweat and 1182 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,080 tell you all what you need to do in terms of hydration to 1183 00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,720 optimize your regulation, Thermo regulation there as well. 1184 00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:39,960 That's a really big area for us in advance in the last six 1185 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,960 months that's brand new for our domain of research. 1186 00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:45,560 And then we're really trying to unlock a lot more of the mind. 1187 00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,320 We started to talk about this a little bit, I think last time a 1188 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,720 year and a half ago where we, we knew we wanted to do it, but we 1189 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:53,760 hadn't done it yet, but we wanted to do it, but we hadn't 1190 00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,840 done it yet. It was still kind of sitting in 1191 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,520 this cycle and we've actually started to do it. 1192 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,680 So we've been in the last six months really trying to like tap 1193 01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:06,080 into what the mind is experiencing, how the mind is 1194 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,320 influencing the body out on the run as well as there's really 1195 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,720 exciting stuff. We're learning more about the 1196 01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:14,080 runner, what they're facing and what could get them again, 1197 01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:16,680 ultimately to maximize their performance and minimize injury 1198 01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:19,920 risk, and how the mind will influence all of that, not just. 1199 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,400 What I can capture from your kinematics? 1200 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:24,960 That's so cool. There's a lot of research coming 1201 01:00:24,960 --> 01:00:27,720 out right now on like how beliefs and especially 1202 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,440 kinesiophobia can make very either acute or chronic changes 1203 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,880 in someone's movement patterns. So that is really exciting. 1204 01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,760 And at some point I would love to pick your brain on what you 1205 01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:40,640 were two are finding with that, because I'm very it's that's I 1206 01:00:40,640 --> 01:00:42,640 think it's very exciting that it's the next frontier going. 1207 01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:44,800 How are people thinking and how does that influence their 1208 01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:47,320 decision making and even their movement patterns, which I don't 1209 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:50,560 think we have a full understanding of? 1210 01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:54,400 Yeah, which is really cool to think about. 1211 01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,760 Yeah, we have some work we'll be sharing out at, well hopefully 1212 01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:02,120 we just submitted it to ACSM, the American College sports 1213 01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,600 medicine for next year. And there's two mind based 1214 01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,080 explorations and how the mood state and mind state of 1215 01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,360 influence, movement mechanics, your rate of perceived exertion 1216 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:13,200 basically when you just kind of call it on run. 1217 01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:17,960 And then generally the behavioral mindsets that people 1218 01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:20,240 have for those that are experiencing more positive mood 1219 01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:23,920 state compared to those that are dealing with more challenges. 1220 01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:26,080 So there's some really exciting pieces hopefully coming out 1221 01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,360 early next year on that as well. Sweet. 1222 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:30,560 So we're not getting into like you're designing your footwear 1223 01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,320 based on if you're happy, sad or anything. 1224 01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:35,280 Like, no, I'm just kidding. We might. 1225 01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,000 So we. Oh OK, so it's a joke. 1226 01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:41,920 We want you that if you get that shoe, it puts you into that 1227 01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:44,960 positive mind space because that positive mind space will make a 1228 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:46,600 difference on your run. So what can? 1229 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:48,880 We're not turning any domain off. 1230 01:01:48,960 --> 01:01:52,720 It'll be product builds, mood and psychology. 1231 01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:54,880 There's a lot of aspects in the mind that can come through. 1232 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,200 That totally blows my mind 'cause when you both talk about 1233 01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:00,400 especially, I'm talking about like the run experience. 1234 01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:05,800 I don't think I had thought about that beyond bio mechanics. 1235 01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:08,520 And understanding what that experience means both 1236 01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:13,240 emotionally and psychologically for a human being is really 1237 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,960 cool. So I have to go process all of 1238 01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:18,160 this. That was a lot. 1239 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:24,280 So Jennifer A Jenn, just go by your name, Jennifer Evans. 1240 01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:29,520 I like that you start doing my. Brain is going 1000 miles a 1241 01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,200 minute, which is why I love having you 2 on and I will 1242 01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,280 probably need a month plus to go process everything we've talked 1243 01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,720 about. As always, we appreciate you 2 1244 01:02:37,720 --> 01:02:40,600 coming on and we also appreciate everybody that's watching and 1245 01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,200 listening with all the stuff that we get to talk about. 1246 01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:46,120 It is individuals like this that make this so exciting to 1247 01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:49,320 continue learning and talking with people in the industry and 1248 01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,200 out Boeing. What can we learn and how can 1249 01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,680 that help us not only understand how what was being developed, 1250 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,160 but also how we can make better decisions about what we're 1251 01:02:57,160 --> 01:02:59,680 putting on our feet. They're both up at Brooks. 1252 01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:01,960 They're doing phenomenal work up there. 1253 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,120 If there's any additional questions that you have, we can 1254 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:08,280 definitely send it to those two and see if they're willing to 1255 01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,800 respond. Of course, obviously I'm going 1256 01:03:09,800 --> 01:03:13,320 to get them on again and keep bothering them until we do 1257 01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,800 because now there's thousands of other podcasts we probably need 1258 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:17,760 to do to answer all the questions that I have right now. 1259 01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:20,800 As always, you can find us on a variety of different sites. 1260 01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,760 Whether you're listening to us on Spotify, iTunes, or you're 1261 01:03:23,760 --> 01:03:26,560 watching us visually on YouTube or some of the other areas. 1262 01:03:26,680 --> 01:03:28,880 There's lots of different places to consume what we try to put 1263 01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,640 out to help you make better decision footwear. 1264 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,880 There's obviously the many different social sites, 1265 01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:36,920 including Instagram and then and LinkedIn and all those stuff. 1266 01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:39,800 And then also the website, which is the original start to a lot 1267 01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:41,840 of the content that we put out always. 1268 01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,800 I know I say it's 1000 times. We hope this helps you put 1269 01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:47,160 stuff, better stuff on your feet and figure out what works for 1270 01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:49,160 you. And Evan and Jen, I really 1271 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:50,520 appreciate you both being on here. 1272 01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,720 I do have one last question for you too. 1273 01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,360 And so I did not tell either them for the listeners and 1274 01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:00,400 watch, I didn't tell them this, but what is your favorite Brooke 1275 01:04:00,400 --> 01:04:03,480 shoe? And if it was a pizza, what 1276 01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:06,040 pizza would it be? I was like, I don't as you 1277 01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:08,160 started saying this, I was like, I think you stressed me out last 1278 01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:13,520 time when you asked some like. Hey, at least it was like the OG 1279 01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:16,040 days where somebody's like Matt, what if this shoe is a sport 1280 01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:17,960 like this NBA sports team? What would it be? 1281 01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:23,400 I'm like, can I just say Blazers or Lakers or everything? 1282 01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:24,960 This is the two major cities I've lived in. 1283 01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:30,840 Like give me a break. I I don't I maybe this won't be 1284 01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:32,160 my favorite. I'm going to change like from 1285 01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:36,360 but like surprised how much I like it because I'm not a Max 1286 01:04:36,360 --> 01:04:38,760 coach person. I've always like like the 1287 01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:40,880 levitate was my shoe and mountainous levitate. 1288 01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:45,840 So there is, but I'm really pleasantly surprised with the 1289 01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:49,920 ghost Re/max as someone that is not my domain that it's just 1290 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:54,680 very I, I use it more for walk as opposed to run per SE for me. 1291 01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:57,680 But I kind of as it was coming out, I was like, Nah, that's not 1292 01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,920 my user space. And I but I still always get a 1293 01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:02,240 pair of something that's coming out of the market. 1294 01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,160 So I don't forget because you are two years ahead all the 1295 01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:05,520 time. So it's a good pulse point for 1296 01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,280 me to remember like what we're making right now. 1297 01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:09,760 And I've been wearing those babies around and I was like, 1298 01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:11,200 man, these are actually pretty comfortable. 1299 01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,200 So I kind of just kind of intrigued surprise because it's 1300 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:20,400 again, not usually where I live in my preferences, but the pizza 1301 01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,680 it would be, I would probably say like meat lovers and more 1302 01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:26,720 not to offend anybody who doesn't like meat, but it's kind 1303 01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:29,880 of like it's a lot of a lot. So like when you get like a meat 1304 01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:32,400 lover's pizza and you're just like slammed with like a salt 1305 01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:34,440 comma because there's so much meat on there. 1306 01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:39,240 It's like there's just so much to and yet it tastes so good. 1307 01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,680 You're just still want another. Maybe you'll need another one. 1308 01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:44,080 I don't know. That's sort of like the moods 1309 01:05:44,080 --> 01:05:46,360 I'm going through with my glycerin Max's that I've been 1310 01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,800 wearing around. Super weird analogy. 1311 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:49,880 I don't know where I was taking that. 1312 01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,480 No, that's a great answer. This is exactly where this is 1313 01:05:53,480 --> 01:05:55,320 supposed to go. All right, Evan, what do you 1314 01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,400 think? Oh man, my favorite favorite. 1315 01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,680 I'm a ghost Max guy. I got to go to it not only from 1316 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,040 just like this shoe itself, but the entire process that went 1317 01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:10,600 into that shoe of like internally to get it to market 1318 01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:14,080 all the testing we did in every little we obsessed over that 1319 01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,320 too. I love it and I need it. 1320 01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:23,280 So it's a pizza. So I was actually going to go 1321 01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,400 like it's a supreme. It has a lot, but it delivers. 1322 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,680 Jen kind of put that red in the glycerin Max, so maybe it's just 1323 01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:33,320 solid pepperoni. It's just it does the trick. 1324 01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:35,800 It's got a little bit of red onion there to make it a little 1325 01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,000 bit unique and like, no, you did it right. 1326 01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:41,320 But so it's a little pep with a little veggie included because 1327 01:06:41,320 --> 01:06:45,840 it rounds everything out nice. Those were great answers. 1328 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,240 As always, Jen Sumner, Evan Day, thank you too very much for 1329 01:06:49,240 --> 01:06:51,360 being on here and I will definitely look forward to the 1330 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,320 next time we'd like to talk. Thanks for having us.