1 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,814 Hey everyone, and welcome to the Doctors of Running Podcast, 2 00:00:09,814 --> 00:00:12,946 where we, a group of Doctors of Physical Therapy, talk about the 3 00:00:12,946 --> 00:00:15,817 art and the science of the things we're putting on our 4 00:00:15,817 --> 00:00:17,411 feet. Today it's myself, Matthew 5 00:00:17,411 --> 00:00:21,398 Klein, and Dr. Andrea Myers here, and we're going to have a 6 00:00:21,398 --> 00:00:24,718 really interesting episode that I want to describe a little. 7 00:00:24,719 --> 00:00:27,820 There's a lot of changes going on at Doctors of Running right 8 00:00:27,820 --> 00:00:29,158 now. There's a lot of evolution. 9 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,119 There's some really cool things we're excited to roll out, but 10 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,540 there's also a lot of self-reflection going on about 11 00:00:34,540 --> 00:00:36,961 how we do things, how to streamline certain things, 12 00:00:36,961 --> 00:00:39,651 wondering if we're making things more complicated than they need 13 00:00:39,651 --> 00:00:42,610 to be — and trying to get more simple, more straightforward, 14 00:00:42,610 --> 00:00:44,759 and going, "How do we do this better?" 15 00:00:44,759 --> 00:00:46,559 And so we'll get to that in a second. 16 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,251 But of course, the most exciting things — we're going to talk 17 00:00:49,251 --> 00:00:51,216 about shoes first. Before we do that, obviously one 18 00:00:51,216 --> 00:00:53,786 of our sponsors is Rabbit, and we're going to talk a little bit 19 00:00:53,786 --> 00:00:55,559 about some of the things that we have on. 20 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,771 I, as always, am wearing my High Country short sleeve — which I 21 00:00:58,771 --> 00:01:01,727 usually just ran in — but I'm having some issues with a 22 00:01:01,727 --> 00:01:04,187 bacterial infection and having a really hard time regulating my 23 00:01:04,187 --> 00:01:06,660 body temperature. So I am wearing the Go-To 24 00:01:06,660 --> 00:01:09,300 Hoodie, which is really comfortable and great for 25 00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:11,039 staying warm. It's been great. 26 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,138 We really love Rabbit stuff. It's been really awesome. 27 00:01:13,140 --> 00:01:16,918 Andrea, what are you wearing? This is the EZT Perf Trail. 28 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,004 I love their Perf material. It's really lightweight and 29 00:01:20,004 --> 00:01:22,080 breathable. But this one is actually nice 30 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:23,759 enough looking to just wear casually. 31 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,013 It's almost 90 degrees here and I definitely needed something 32 00:01:28,013 --> 00:01:29,878 cool. So I grabbed this. 33 00:01:29,879 --> 00:01:33,080 Sweet. We are in Oregon in that weird 34 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,744 period where we're just starting to get some warmer stuff — 35 00:01:35,744 --> 00:01:37,438 "warm" being relative, like 70s and 80s. 36 00:01:37,439 --> 00:01:40,238 And then it drops back down to the 40s and you're like, "Wow, 37 00:01:40,238 --> 00:01:42,299 this is really weird." Do I turn the air conditioning 38 00:01:42,299 --> 00:01:44,730 on or not? So yeah, there's a variety of 39 00:01:44,730 --> 00:01:47,995 things you can get from them. And so if that's something 40 00:01:47,995 --> 00:01:50,856 you're interested in, the discount code for this month is 41 00:01:50,856 --> 00:01:52,858 MAYDOCS10 — did I say that right? 42 00:01:52,859 --> 00:01:55,333 Great. MAYDOCS10, all capital letters. 43 00:01:55,333 --> 00:01:59,329 And both of us have debuted their racing kit now, which has 44 00:01:59,329 --> 00:02:03,658 our logo on it from them, and at least Andrea did really well. 45 00:02:03,659 --> 00:02:06,246 When I debuted mine, I didn't do so hot because it was actually 46 00:02:06,246 --> 00:02:07,438 the beginning of whatever this is. 47 00:02:07,439 --> 00:02:10,439 And congratulations, by the way — had a great race. 48 00:02:10,439 --> 00:02:13,918 It was the 400 race, right? Just one race. 49 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,239 Did quite well. Yeah, not bad — matching your 50 00:02:16,239 --> 00:02:19,978 400 high school PR. No, can't complain about that. 51 00:02:19,979 --> 00:02:23,225 No, can't complain about that. I'm sure it was the Rabbit crop 52 00:02:23,225 --> 00:02:27,360 that did it. I've got to say — I'm very picky 53 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:31,558 about race clothing and I love this Rabbit racing crop. 54 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,387 It's got pockets in the back and on the sides, a built-in bra, 55 00:02:35,387 --> 00:02:37,739 and doesn't restrict your rib cage at all. 56 00:02:37,740 --> 00:02:42,095 So I highly recommend it. I've raced in their crops for a 57 00:02:42,095 --> 00:02:44,840 few years now, and this is probably the most 58 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,579 comfortable-fitting one they've made, and it has more pockets. 59 00:02:47,580 --> 00:02:51,084 So go check it out. Yeah, it has absolutely nothing 60 00:02:51,084 --> 00:02:54,835 to do with the very specific training that you've been doing 61 00:02:54,835 --> 00:02:57,899 — typical strength stuff, power, specific kinds of work... 62 00:02:57,900 --> 00:03:01,570 This is totally off topic, but as an overtrained distance 63 00:03:01,570 --> 00:03:04,506 runner, it's been very interesting to watch your 64 00:03:04,506 --> 00:03:09,277 training and go, "Whoa, you just did like four or five 200s with 65 00:03:09,277 --> 00:03:13,314 tons of rest, and you actually walked the recovery" — which, 66 00:03:13,314 --> 00:03:17,344 for me, feels sacrilegious, even though I know deep down that's 67 00:03:17,344 --> 00:03:20,638 really important and something I need to think about. 68 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,618 So this is off topic, but — what helps? 69 00:03:23,618 --> 00:03:28,300 What kind of maturity does it take to go, "Hey, this is how I 70 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:31,100 know to train" — or maybe you're not as intense as me and you 71 00:03:31,100 --> 00:03:32,698 just have a better head on your shoulders. 72 00:03:32,699 --> 00:03:35,839 But what helps with going, "Hey, this is what I need to do, even 73 00:03:35,839 --> 00:03:38,388 if it means less mileage"? Well, going from marathon 74 00:03:38,388 --> 00:03:43,022 training — which I was doing the past few years — to mid-distance 75 00:03:43,022 --> 00:03:47,294 training the past year and a half, your mileage is going to 76 00:03:47,294 --> 00:03:50,854 go down. I'm not going to be the best at 77 00:03:50,854 --> 00:03:54,058 the 800 if I'm running 60 miles a week. 78 00:03:54,060 --> 00:03:57,084 It's too much. So I run about 35 to 40 miles a 79 00:03:57,084 --> 00:03:59,638 week with one or two bike rides thrown in there. 80 00:03:59,639 --> 00:04:04,156 But when you see "walk or standing recoveries" on your 81 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:09,568 speed day workout, you know the intensity is going to be very 82 00:04:09,568 --> 00:04:12,360 high. So honestly, there's no way I 83 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:16,774 could jog the recoveries that I'm meant to do standing or 84 00:04:16,774 --> 00:04:20,815 walking, because we're usually talking about paces at 800 pace 85 00:04:20,815 --> 00:04:25,259 or even faster — sometimes a little faster than 400 pace. 86 00:04:25,259 --> 00:04:28,499 So you're not jogging between those reps for sure. 87 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:31,180 Yeah, that's something I need to come to terms with. 88 00:04:31,180 --> 00:04:35,198 You know, as you get older — and the three kind of time points in 89 00:04:35,198 --> 00:04:39,608 your life — we've talked about this before — 30, 50, and 75 are 90 00:04:39,608 --> 00:04:43,544 the three time points based on the evidence where we tend to 91 00:04:43,544 --> 00:04:45,838 start losing muscle mass, strength, and power. 92 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,643 And if you really want to get those things back, you have to 93 00:04:49,643 --> 00:04:52,185 be very specific. And that means you need enough 94 00:04:52,185 --> 00:04:54,180 recovery time. Like, we talk about plyometrics 95 00:04:54,180 --> 00:04:57,924 all the time — to do really good plyometrics, you need like 2.5 96 00:04:57,924 --> 00:04:59,939 to 3 minutes of rest between sets. 97 00:04:59,939 --> 00:05:01,559 If you're actually going at the right intensity. 98 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,080 If you're not, that means you're actually not getting the right 99 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:06,763 stimulus. Like, they should be really hard 100 00:05:06,763 --> 00:05:08,579 and you shouldn't be able to do more. 101 00:05:08,579 --> 00:05:13,544 And so that's kind of a classic error — and I do this very badly 102 00:05:13,544 --> 00:05:17,516 — a classic error on a lot of endurance athletes' parts: if 103 00:05:17,516 --> 00:05:20,039 you want that stimulus, that's how hard you've got to work. 104 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,199 And so yeah, you're not going to be able to jog that. 105 00:05:22,199 --> 00:05:27,018 So that's something I'm learning from you, going, "I need to do 106 00:05:27,018 --> 00:05:28,963 that." Although I'm still obsessed with 107 00:05:28,963 --> 00:05:30,729 some mileage. I'm desperately holding on to 108 00:05:30,729 --> 00:05:32,513 some. Like, I'm at 59 miles this week 109 00:05:32,513 --> 00:05:35,390 and I'm probably going to go run one or two more later just 110 00:05:35,390 --> 00:05:36,716 because of the obsessive-compulsive nature to 111 00:05:36,716 --> 00:05:40,559 get to 60. So, yeah, it's fine. 112 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,619 You might learn someday, man. Someday. 113 00:05:43,620 --> 00:05:46,099 Anyway, that's our talk on Rabbit, and talking about 114 00:05:46,099 --> 00:05:48,299 training and all kinds of stuff like that. 115 00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:50,879 So again, the code is there. We really love the apparel. 116 00:05:50,879 --> 00:05:52,713 It's not just a sponsorship thing — it's something we stand 117 00:05:52,713 --> 00:05:54,539 by and train in all the time and have really enjoyed. 118 00:05:54,540 --> 00:05:57,119 Well, I will say one thing about that, Matt. 119 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,280 Yeah. I've been racing in Rabbit 120 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:02,159 shorts for years because I just like them. 121 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,599 They have pockets. They're comfortable. 122 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:09,144 The shorts that I run in on a weekly basis are four years old 123 00:06:09,144 --> 00:06:11,519 and they're still in perfect condition. 124 00:06:11,519 --> 00:06:15,838 Yeah, I've definitely noticed the durability is phenomenal. 125 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:20,338 So again — now let's jump into shoe stuff. 126 00:06:20,339 --> 00:06:23,804 And so this is sponsored by Scratch Labs, which — another 127 00:06:23,804 --> 00:06:26,954 code, if you're looking for it — is DOCTORSOFRUNNING, all 128 00:06:26,954 --> 00:06:29,159 lowercase, for 20% off your first order. 129 00:06:29,159 --> 00:06:32,624 Which I have thoroughly exceeded, and I don't get a code 130 00:06:32,624 --> 00:06:35,459 anymore, even though I buy my own stuff too. 131 00:06:35,459 --> 00:06:39,016 I have to say, they just sent us the watermelon, which I had been 132 00:06:39,016 --> 00:06:40,799 complaining about forever. Actually, on the last episode — 133 00:06:40,799 --> 00:06:42,839 when I found out they were selling it — I bought four 134 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:44,699 containers on my own, and then they sent me another one. 135 00:06:44,699 --> 00:06:50,711 I'm like, well, I have more now. I might have a new favorite 136 00:06:50,711 --> 00:06:52,755 flavor. And Andrea — you said you'd 137 00:06:52,755 --> 00:06:56,551 tested the cucumber lime before, and I'm going to get made fun of 138 00:06:56,551 --> 00:06:59,468 for being bougie, because the cucumber lime is actually really 139 00:06:59,468 --> 00:07:01,123 good. Both of those are limited 140 00:07:01,123 --> 00:07:03,299 flavors that I would have laughed at before. 141 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:06,234 I did laugh at people — like, cucumber water? 142 00:07:06,234 --> 00:07:09,511 How bougie can you be? And then I had some of this and 143 00:07:09,511 --> 00:07:11,159 I'm like, "Oh man, this is pretty good." 144 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,399 It's delicious. Welcome to the club. 145 00:07:14,399 --> 00:07:19,859 Great. Anyway, it's really good. 146 00:07:19,860 --> 00:07:23,435 And it's been great because — even in Oregon — one of the 147 00:07:23,435 --> 00:07:26,453 challenges I run into is that I don't drink enough fluids. 148 00:07:26,453 --> 00:07:29,140 Because I lived in Southern California for 15 years, I'm 149 00:07:29,140 --> 00:07:32,000 like, "Why am I going to drink loads of fluids when I'm in 150 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:32,759 Oregon? It rains." 151 00:07:32,759 --> 00:07:34,439 Why not? And then I still get dehydrated. 152 00:07:34,439 --> 00:07:36,599 I'm like, "Oh, because I need to drink more fluids." 153 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,976 So Scratch is something I actually drink throughout the 154 00:07:38,976 --> 00:07:40,654 day. It really helps me maintain and 155 00:07:40,654 --> 00:07:43,932 get a little bit more fluids in. And on some of the runs that I'm 156 00:07:43,932 --> 00:07:46,019 doing — I tend to sweat a lot, so it's very helpful. 157 00:07:46,019 --> 00:07:48,909 So if that's something you need, they make some pretty good 158 00:07:48,909 --> 00:07:50,399 stuff. Tastes pretty good too. 159 00:07:50,399 --> 00:07:53,399 So, on to the in-for-testing section. 160 00:07:53,399 --> 00:07:55,019 What are you running in right now? 161 00:07:55,019 --> 00:07:58,043 Well, I was very excited when this shoe showed up because I 162 00:07:58,043 --> 00:08:01,499 loved version one. Puma Magnify Nitro 2. 163 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:07,315 The original version — loved it for easy runs for a maximal 164 00:08:07,315 --> 00:08:09,239 shoe. It's relatively lightweight. 165 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,419 I think for men it's around 9.5 ounces. 166 00:08:12,420 --> 00:08:17,303 For women it's probably a little under 9, but it has a little bit 167 00:08:17,303 --> 00:08:20,140 of bounce. Like, you can definitely feel 168 00:08:20,140 --> 00:08:23,136 that Nitro foam. Comfortable upper fit, wide 169 00:08:23,136 --> 00:08:26,670 enough toe box. And the way the outsole is 170 00:08:26,670 --> 00:08:30,045 shaped and designed just feels really comfortable for midfoot 171 00:08:30,045 --> 00:08:33,366 landing. So I've gotten a lot of miles on 172 00:08:33,366 --> 00:08:37,414 the original Magnify Max. And I've got a couple short runs 173 00:08:37,414 --> 00:08:41,129 on version 2. And I've got to say — I need to 174 00:08:41,129 --> 00:08:44,899 do another run in version one to compare — but I can't really 175 00:08:44,899 --> 00:08:47,219 tell a significant difference between the two versions. 176 00:08:47,220 --> 00:08:50,716 I know that version 2 is a little bit lighter, maybe half 177 00:08:50,716 --> 00:08:54,419 an ounce. But in terms of the fit and the 178 00:08:54,419 --> 00:08:57,119 ride, it feels pretty similar to version one for me. 179 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,999 But I know that's not quite the experience you've had, right? 180 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,797 Yeah, I just did my first run. I've done quite a bit of walking 181 00:09:03,797 --> 00:09:05,515 in this one. I hadn't gotten a chance to run 182 00:09:05,515 --> 00:09:07,139 in it until this morning. I did my first run. 183 00:09:07,139 --> 00:09:09,359 And I will say it is much better. 184 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,296 I'm not exactly sure what they changed — I'm still learning — 185 00:09:13,296 --> 00:09:17,549 but obviously it is lighter, and they're using what looks like 186 00:09:17,549 --> 00:09:22,567 more of a knit-type upper, which fits me just a lot better than 187 00:09:22,567 --> 00:09:24,778 the original. A little bit wider fit. 188 00:09:24,779 --> 00:09:28,134 Still kind of that lower volume, but it stretches a little 189 00:09:28,134 --> 00:09:31,259 better. Version one was okay. 190 00:09:31,259 --> 00:09:34,619 It wasn't terrible, but it was just like, "It's fine." 191 00:09:34,620 --> 00:09:37,629 And the other thing I found was that version one felt really 192 00:09:37,629 --> 00:09:40,379 bulky, oddly, and I didn't feel like it was as stable. 193 00:09:40,379 --> 00:09:43,211 I don't know if it's because there was a little bit more 194 00:09:43,211 --> 00:09:46,043 outsole flare, but it just felt like — even though there are 195 00:09:46,043 --> 00:09:48,167 massive sidewalls — I was getting pushed immediately a 196 00:09:48,167 --> 00:09:49,814 lot. I did not experience that with 197 00:09:49,814 --> 00:09:52,934 version 2 today. And granted, I need to get some 198 00:09:52,934 --> 00:09:57,407 more miles on it, but it just feels like a lot more refined 199 00:09:57,407 --> 00:09:59,127 shoe. And yeah, it's definitely 200 00:09:59,127 --> 00:10:02,911 maximal obviously, but it feels a little more centered, a little 201 00:10:02,911 --> 00:10:05,370 better fitting. So definitely in my mind an 202 00:10:05,370 --> 00:10:07,139 improvement in pretty much every way. 203 00:10:07,139 --> 00:10:10,919 The one thing we've got to see is durability, because there is 204 00:10:10,919 --> 00:10:13,751 now less outsole material. So we'll have to see what 205 00:10:13,751 --> 00:10:16,363 happens there — especially because we all know what happens 206 00:10:16,363 --> 00:10:20,017 to me when I have something I can rip off — but we'll find 207 00:10:20,017 --> 00:10:22,426 out. So yeah, this may be a whole 208 00:10:22,426 --> 00:10:24,807 other episode. We may have to do a Between Two 209 00:10:24,807 --> 00:10:27,678 Shoes with us for that shoe, but I'm not hating it, which is 210 00:10:27,678 --> 00:10:30,538 great — as opposed to the first one where I was like, "Meh." 211 00:10:30,539 --> 00:10:33,719 So yeah, much better. What else you got? 212 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,666 I'm finishing up miles. I know you already reviewed it, 213 00:10:37,666 --> 00:10:41,219 but I'm finishing my miles on the Saucony Endorphin Elite 3. 214 00:10:41,220 --> 00:10:45,250 I think I talked about the shoe on a previous episode, but I 215 00:10:45,250 --> 00:10:50,369 hadn't run in it yet. So my hopes for the fit came 216 00:10:50,369 --> 00:10:55,979 true — this nice squared-off, wide toe box is so comfortable. 217 00:10:55,980 --> 00:10:59,690 It's definitely one of the most comfortable-fitting racing 218 00:10:59,690 --> 00:11:03,448 uppers out there. I don't know if I would say it's 219 00:11:03,448 --> 00:11:05,219 number one, but no fit complaints. 220 00:11:05,220 --> 00:11:09,119 This is absolutely a softer racing shoe. 221 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:14,359 I don't always love soft shoes, but this shoe has so much bounce 222 00:11:14,359 --> 00:11:17,579 that it really offsets the amount of softness. 223 00:11:17,580 --> 00:11:23,807 I've done a ton of intervals — like at 10K pace — and one 224 00:11:23,807 --> 00:11:26,609 workout around threshold. I like it. 225 00:11:26,609 --> 00:11:31,499 It's super hard to control when cornering at speed, though. 226 00:11:31,500 --> 00:11:36,036 Like, I told you guys — it feels like I'm Mario Karting in the 227 00:11:36,036 --> 00:11:36,720 shoe. Yeah, that was a great analogy, 228 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:37,815 by the way. Whatever direction you're 229 00:11:37,815 --> 00:11:40,859 moving, it wants to bounce you in the opposite direction. 230 00:11:40,860 --> 00:11:45,652 So if I'm taking a sharp corner fast, it feels like it wants to 231 00:11:45,652 --> 00:11:49,979 bounce me outward. So if I was going to race in it, 232 00:11:49,979 --> 00:11:53,639 I would definitely choose a course with very few turns. 233 00:11:53,639 --> 00:11:58,534 But I've really liked how it performs around 10K pace and 234 00:11:58,534 --> 00:12:00,276 threshold. It wouldn't be my number one 235 00:12:00,276 --> 00:12:03,719 racing shoe, but if I had to do a race in it, I wouldn't be sad. 236 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:09,330 But the wildness in turns would definitely prevent me from using 237 00:12:09,330 --> 00:12:13,381 it in a longer race. Like, I'm not even sure if I 238 00:12:13,381 --> 00:12:16,094 would use this in a half marathon, definitely not a 239 00:12:16,094 --> 00:12:18,480 marathon. I think you've got to have 240 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,772 pretty stable mechanics. And I can tell you, as I 241 00:12:21,772 --> 00:12:25,720 continue to complain about this — I learned the hard way, as 242 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,681 someone with not great stability, that you've got to 243 00:12:28,681 --> 00:12:31,642 have really good, stiff stability in your ankles to 244 00:12:31,642 --> 00:12:35,261 really utilize this well. And I made the mistake of using 245 00:12:35,261 --> 00:12:38,880 that shoe on a very hilly, banked road race that just 246 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,051 destroyed me. And so I'll tell you from 247 00:12:41,051 --> 00:12:43,823 personal experience — yeah, that kind of course is not something 248 00:12:43,823 --> 00:12:45,839 you're going to want to do at all. 249 00:12:45,839 --> 00:12:49,115 But if you have a flat, unbanked course and you have really good 250 00:12:49,115 --> 00:12:51,887 stability and you really want one of the bounciest things out 251 00:12:51,887 --> 00:12:55,499 there, it may work for you. It just didn't work for me. 252 00:12:55,500 --> 00:12:57,596 It works great for me on a treadmill when I don't have to 253 00:12:57,596 --> 00:13:00,816 turn at all. But as soon as I take it off the 254 00:13:00,816 --> 00:13:02,944 treadmill, it's something that I struggle with. 255 00:13:02,944 --> 00:13:06,893 And that's — you know — if you want that wild ride, that's 256 00:13:06,893 --> 00:13:08,425 totally fine. It's going to match what you 257 00:13:08,425 --> 00:13:09,467 want. You just got to be able to 258 00:13:09,467 --> 00:13:10,439 control it. Yep. 259 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,810 I've also got to say — like you — I do my whole workout from 260 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:20,099 home, so I'm not changing shoes in the middle of a workout. 261 00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:24,058 So this is certainly not a shoe that's fun to run slow in. 262 00:13:24,059 --> 00:13:27,436 If you're supposed to be running slowly on your warm-up or 263 00:13:27,436 --> 00:13:30,191 cool-down, you definitely feel like you're trying to control 264 00:13:30,191 --> 00:13:32,639 the shoe a little more than you should. 265 00:13:32,639 --> 00:13:36,267 Yes. I will say — if you're going at 266 00:13:36,267 --> 00:13:39,368 least at a halfway up-tempo pace, even while running, you 267 00:13:39,368 --> 00:13:42,778 don't have to be running all-out for that shoe to benefit. 268 00:13:42,779 --> 00:13:45,694 I do think recreational runners may actually do a little bit 269 00:13:45,694 --> 00:13:48,874 better in that shoe compared to other ones, just because it is 270 00:13:48,874 --> 00:13:52,319 very soft — and as long as you can control it, it's great. 271 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:53,855 It's great. But if you have any stability 272 00:13:53,855 --> 00:13:55,259 needs, it's kind of like the last version. 273 00:13:55,259 --> 00:13:57,779 It's bouncier, it definitely moves better than the second one 274 00:13:57,779 --> 00:14:01,307 — which I just felt like I mushed into — but you've got to 275 00:14:01,307 --> 00:14:04,079 be stable to really get the benefit out of that shoe. 276 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,048 So I totally agree. Yeah, unfortunately the only 277 00:14:07,048 --> 00:14:12,103 version of the Elite 2 I got to test was a men's 9, so it 278 00:14:12,103 --> 00:14:15,803 definitely didn't give me the real feel for it, and version 279 00:14:15,803 --> 00:14:19,019 one was such a different shoe. I enjoyed version one. 280 00:14:19,019 --> 00:14:23,850 The fit was not perfect for me. I was kind of between sizes in 281 00:14:23,850 --> 00:14:25,735 it. So it just wasn't super 282 00:14:25,735 --> 00:14:29,931 comfortable on the ball of my foot, but I did like the midsole 283 00:14:29,931 --> 00:14:33,151 feel of version one because it was significantly firmer than 284 00:14:33,151 --> 00:14:36,599 version 2 or 3. Can I complain for a second? 285 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,300 Of course. Okay, so Saucony's got all these 286 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:40,918 great foams. They've got PWRRUN Lux. 287 00:14:40,919 --> 00:14:43,319 They've got PWRRUN, all this kind of stuff. 288 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,019 What happened to PWRRUN HG? I know. 289 00:14:46,019 --> 00:14:50,033 Like, to be fair, that is what's used in the Tempest 3 — and BJ 290 00:14:50,033 --> 00:14:53,504 is going to hate me for bringing this shoe up because it's not 291 00:14:53,504 --> 00:14:56,760 available in the United States. But this is — this is too firm 292 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,004 in my opinion. I think if they used full-length 293 00:14:59,004 --> 00:15:02,306 PWRRUN HG with the Tempest 3 it would have been better, but the 294 00:15:02,306 --> 00:15:04,079 EVA combination just makes it too firm. 295 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,918 But yeah, HG — I feel like — it wasn't soft. 296 00:15:07,919 --> 00:15:10,859 It was firm, but it was really responsive. 297 00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:12,538 And a lot of people liked version one. 298 00:15:12,539 --> 00:15:15,131 I'm not saying there's anything wrong necessarily with version 299 00:15:15,131 --> 00:15:17,519 3. People are going to like it, but 300 00:15:17,519 --> 00:15:20,819 — what happened? I feel like Saucony is 301 00:15:20,819 --> 00:15:24,659 definitely leaning into highly bouncy midsoles right now. 302 00:15:24,659 --> 00:15:29,459 You know, you've got — yeah — the Paramount Max. 303 00:15:29,460 --> 00:15:33,239 I promised myself I would not call it the streaming service. 304 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,394 Paramount Max. To be fair, I did accidentally 305 00:15:36,394 --> 00:15:39,639 write that in the review and I had to delete it. 306 00:15:39,639 --> 00:15:41,999 I realized it right before BJ posted it. 307 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,139 I'm like, "Oh my gosh" — because BJ hates it if we edit reviews 308 00:15:45,139 --> 00:15:47,239 within 24 hours of posting. So I was like, "I've got to 309 00:15:47,239 --> 00:15:48,178 change that." So no judgment. 310 00:15:48,179 --> 00:15:50,399 Yeah. But I mean, the Paramount Max 311 00:15:50,399 --> 00:15:52,798 was a shoe I couldn't run a mile in. 312 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:56,800 It was so bouncy. And just — you know — can't 313 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:02,773 really say how I know this, but it seems like the shoes Saucony 314 00:16:02,773 --> 00:16:08,740 has coming down the pipeline are maybe in the same vein of very 315 00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:11,832 bouncy responsiveness. So it'll be interesting to see 316 00:16:11,832 --> 00:16:16,900 if PWRRUN HG is — I would assume it'll still be in the Endorphin 317 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:20,158 Pro and the Endorphin Speed — but who knows? 318 00:16:20,159 --> 00:16:24,640 Maybe not. Is it used in — I don't 319 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:26,999 remember. I should know this. 320 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:28,739 Is it used in the Endorphin Pro 5? 321 00:16:28,740 --> 00:16:33,359 I know they have PWRRUN PB. Wow, I am really embarrassed. 322 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,055 I should know that. So that's something I have to 323 00:16:35,055 --> 00:16:36,479 look up. I can't remember if they're 324 00:16:36,479 --> 00:16:38,699 still using it in that. That's a good question. 325 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:40,619 I've got to check on that. Yep. 326 00:16:40,620 --> 00:16:43,798 So what else are you testing? Let's see. 327 00:16:43,799 --> 00:16:48,572 I just finished — well, we just published our review on the 328 00:16:48,572 --> 00:16:52,253 Hyperion Max 4. Which, you and I once again 329 00:16:52,253 --> 00:16:57,979 disagree on — do we? I think less than we did on the 330 00:16:57,979 --> 00:17:00,119 3. Definitely less so. 331 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,332 I think the problem is that yours was confounded by the fit 332 00:17:03,332 --> 00:17:04,060 issue. That's true. 333 00:17:04,060 --> 00:17:06,358 And that's exactly why I went up a half size. 334 00:17:06,358 --> 00:17:09,059 Literally everything in Brooks has been fitting me a half size 335 00:17:09,059 --> 00:17:11,999 short and it's really impacted my ability to run in the shoes. 336 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,151 The entire line that we're testing right now, I'm in a 10.5 337 00:17:15,151 --> 00:17:17,635 and that has helped. It changes probably how I 338 00:17:17,635 --> 00:17:20,214 perceive the stiffness and cushioning of the shoe, but 339 00:17:20,214 --> 00:17:23,973 yeah, I went up. But I don't know how much we 340 00:17:23,973 --> 00:17:25,858 actually disagree. Yeah, actually. 341 00:17:25,858 --> 00:17:28,739 Well, I think we're pretty actually somewhat similar. 342 00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:29,879 I think so, yeah. Yeah. 343 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:33,703 One thing — I think the main reason for the fit issue is all 344 00:17:33,703 --> 00:17:36,979 of their shoes have so much heel collar padding now, it pushes 345 00:17:36,979 --> 00:17:40,798 your foot forward. You think about the Hyperion 3 — 346 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:45,118 it got much more heel collar cushioning than version two. 347 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,949 Obviously, the Hyperion Max 3 had a similar level of 348 00:17:48,949 --> 00:17:53,159 cushioning, and you and I had similar fit issues in it. 349 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:58,773 I didn't get the Hyperion Elite. Does it have a lot of heel 350 00:17:58,773 --> 00:18:01,318 collar cushioning? I am not sure. 351 00:18:01,319 --> 00:18:06,838 Not nearly — a decent amount, not nearly as much there. 352 00:18:06,839 --> 00:18:09,622 Ironically, the fit — again, pretty flexible — is something I 353 00:18:09,622 --> 00:18:11,639 actually had a really hard time locking down. 354 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,558 It might have been better if they had more. 355 00:18:13,559 --> 00:18:15,358 I had a lot of heel slippage in this shoe. 356 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,818 So kind of a different set of issues. 357 00:18:17,819 --> 00:18:21,493 Yeah, but basically — the Hyperion line — they've added so 358 00:18:21,493 --> 00:18:25,501 much cushioning and made the upper so much thicker that I can 359 00:18:25,501 --> 00:18:28,499 see why you've been going up a half size. 360 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:34,000 I think even if I went up a half size, I would still find the toe 361 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,516 box too narrow — which, yeah. I do actually, even going up a 362 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:42,369 half size, still get some blistering from the taper, to be 363 00:18:42,369 --> 00:18:44,019 honest. It's just such a pronounced 364 00:18:44,019 --> 00:18:46,225 taper... I mean, a lot of listeners know 365 00:18:46,225 --> 00:18:50,116 that the Hyperion Max 1 is one of my favorite shoes of all time 366 00:18:50,116 --> 00:18:53,932 — that shoe fit so comfortably. It could do everything well, and 367 00:18:53,932 --> 00:18:58,586 then they've just progressively made it into what it is now — a 368 00:18:58,586 --> 00:19:02,166 true maximal trainer — but they've also made it much 369 00:19:02,166 --> 00:19:05,999 narrower and lower volume. I find that this year it fits a 370 00:19:05,999 --> 00:19:09,599 lot more like the Launch, which was another shoe I had high 371 00:19:09,599 --> 00:19:13,499 hopes for but can't wear because of how narrow and low volume it 372 00:19:13,499 --> 00:19:16,001 is. So the shoe — I definitely 373 00:19:16,001 --> 00:19:20,393 didn't enjoy running in it because of how tight the toe box 374 00:19:20,393 --> 00:19:22,091 was. I really couldn't run more than 375 00:19:22,091 --> 00:19:26,219 4 miles in it at a time. Similar to version 3. 376 00:19:26,220 --> 00:19:31,558 The medial midsole cutout didn't really bother me that much. 377 00:19:31,559 --> 00:19:35,299 Like, I noticed them and — normally they don't bother me, 378 00:19:35,299 --> 00:19:38,480 but I noticed it. I didn't really even feel it in 379 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,025 the shoe. And I think it's because it's 380 00:19:41,025 --> 00:19:44,760 relatively small. And the platform is so stiff 381 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:50,370 that having a cutout there doesn't really do much to the 382 00:19:50,370 --> 00:19:53,664 ride. And I know that you felt this a 383 00:19:53,664 --> 00:19:55,895 lot, right? And probably the reason for that 384 00:19:55,895 --> 00:19:59,473 is — I've gone up a half size, so naturally my MTP joints, my 385 00:19:59,473 --> 00:20:02,278 toe joints, are going to line up differently with the plate. 386 00:20:02,279 --> 00:20:05,278 So in version 3, it didn't bother me as much. 387 00:20:05,279 --> 00:20:08,834 I think because I was in a size 10 — and even though I was 388 00:20:08,834 --> 00:20:11,678 getting blistering on my toes, I was rolling forward — it wasn't 389 00:20:11,678 --> 00:20:13,574 nearly as stiff. Whereas one of the challenges 390 00:20:13,574 --> 00:20:16,406 with plated stiffening agents is that if you have any kind of 391 00:20:16,406 --> 00:20:19,238 lateral bias and the shoe's too stiff, you're going to start to 392 00:20:19,238 --> 00:20:21,598 go in the frontal plane instead of the sagittal plane. 393 00:20:21,599 --> 00:20:24,623 I think that's what happens to me because I really noticed it 394 00:20:24,623 --> 00:20:27,326 in this shoe. And I did long runs — but man, 395 00:20:27,326 --> 00:20:29,999 it would flare up all the medial structures on my foot. 396 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:34,024 And yeah, so I think if you have lateral stability needs, this 397 00:20:34,024 --> 00:20:37,500 shoe's going to be great. Medial stability needs — this is 398 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:42,262 not a shoe for you. Especially if you go up a half 399 00:20:42,262 --> 00:20:48,454 size to get a better fit. So yeah, I was kind of 400 00:20:48,454 --> 00:20:50,344 disappointed. I really enjoyed version 3. 401 00:20:50,344 --> 00:20:53,783 Version 4 felt mostly like an upper update in a way that kind 402 00:20:53,783 --> 00:20:56,951 of pulled things toward where Brooks seems to be going — where 403 00:20:56,951 --> 00:20:59,063 things are getting more snug and lower volume. 404 00:20:59,063 --> 00:21:01,439 And so I don't know the reasoning for that. 405 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,980 I don't know if their data about the average consumer is that 406 00:21:04,980 --> 00:21:08,219 there are more narrow feet and people are liking that better, 407 00:21:08,219 --> 00:21:11,159 but it's been kind of consistent throughout the entire lineup. 408 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,844 I actually thought the one thing they did better with the upper 409 00:21:14,844 --> 00:21:20,287 in version 3 was — the tongue. I'm trying to remember — it was 410 00:21:20,287 --> 00:21:22,290 a one-piece. Yeah, it was one piece in 411 00:21:22,290 --> 00:21:26,007 version 3. And the gusset was too long on 412 00:21:26,007 --> 00:21:28,595 either side. So no matter what I did, it 413 00:21:28,595 --> 00:21:32,135 would fold over on my foot and there was just no way to get the 414 00:21:32,135 --> 00:21:34,259 tongue to sit flat on top of my foot. 415 00:21:34,259 --> 00:21:38,168 They really streamlined it in version 4 and I did not have 416 00:21:38,168 --> 00:21:40,619 that issue. But that's basically the only 417 00:21:40,619 --> 00:21:43,798 thing I liked about the upper. Yeah. 418 00:21:43,799 --> 00:21:47,754 It just felt like — oddly — just for the category where things 419 00:21:47,754 --> 00:21:51,503 are, the shoe was too heavy, and despite having DNA Gold — which 420 00:21:51,503 --> 00:21:55,226 has been a favorite, like in version 3 was one of my favorite 421 00:21:55,226 --> 00:21:58,095 midsoles — like, this is great. It just feels like it's too 422 00:21:58,095 --> 00:21:59,999 heavy to do what it's advertised for. 423 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,067 Like, I couldn't do anything faster than up-tempo — maybe a 424 00:22:04,067 --> 00:22:07,019 little tempo — intervals was just not pleasant. 425 00:22:07,019 --> 00:22:11,294 And that might also be — for the record — for a lot of the 426 00:22:11,294 --> 00:22:13,859 population that uses Brooks, maybe it's a more approachable 427 00:22:13,859 --> 00:22:15,850 shoe for that kind of speed stuff. 428 00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:19,826 I just found I kind of struggle a little bit, and I would rather 429 00:22:19,826 --> 00:22:23,234 go do something faster in the Ghost — which isn't responsive — 430 00:22:23,234 --> 00:22:25,506 than have this be a little overly stiff. 431 00:22:25,506 --> 00:22:27,778 But that's just me, probably with the fit. 432 00:22:27,779 --> 00:22:30,484 That's so interesting you say that, because I think David said 433 00:22:30,484 --> 00:22:33,179 he did a track workout in the Ghost the other day. 434 00:22:33,180 --> 00:22:34,199 He tried to. Yeah. 435 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,239 Yeah. It didn't work out well. 436 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:41,104 And for me, the Ghost is a shoe I can run in at all because of 437 00:22:41,104 --> 00:22:44,752 its high drop, but the idea that the Ghost is a better 438 00:22:44,752 --> 00:22:48,095 fast-running shoe than the Hyperion Max 4 is just wild — 439 00:22:48,095 --> 00:22:50,519 but that's where the shoes are at now. 440 00:22:50,519 --> 00:22:52,668 Right. And so I think it's because the 441 00:22:52,668 --> 00:22:54,358 Ghost is so much lighter than it used to be. 442 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,118 It's more of a — it's not a 12, it's a 10-millimeter drop. 443 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,446 It actually feels lower. If you told me it was like 7 to 444 00:23:00,446 --> 00:23:03,339 8, I would totally believe you. And it doesn't have the 445 00:23:03,339 --> 00:23:06,495 bounciest foam, but just trying to turn over, it just feels a 446 00:23:06,495 --> 00:23:09,497 lot smoother. And it's a good example of being 447 00:23:09,497 --> 00:23:12,329 careful with plates and stiffening agents — because 448 00:23:12,329 --> 00:23:14,098 stiffer doesn't necessarily mean better. 449 00:23:14,099 --> 00:23:15,479 So it's just an interesting place. 450 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,399 I still have hope for the Hyperion Max. 451 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,688 I think there's a lot of potential. 452 00:23:18,688 --> 00:23:20,519 I think Brooks is trying some things, which is awesome. 453 00:23:20,519 --> 00:23:23,319 It's just — there are some refinements that I think 454 00:23:23,319 --> 00:23:25,558 continue to be made and they're learning things. 455 00:23:25,559 --> 00:23:26,759 And so we'll just see what happens. 456 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:29,027 Right. Like, I'm super excited for the 457 00:23:29,027 --> 00:23:31,679 Hyperion Elite 6. It looks really nice. 458 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,990 I have really high hopes, but we'll see what happens this 459 00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:35,699 summer. So what else do you have? 460 00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:38,879 You know, that's it for what I'm testing. 461 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:45,328 My track workouts — I'm still trying to get some miles on the 462 00:23:45,328 --> 00:23:48,818 Diadora Mezzofondo spike, but I've been doing a lot of 463 00:23:48,818 --> 00:23:53,006 400-pace reps recently and I just can't run that fast in that 464 00:23:53,006 --> 00:23:55,798 spike because of the really sharp toe spring. 465 00:23:55,799 --> 00:23:58,919 So my go-to right now is the Nike Victory 2 spike. 466 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:03,496 But I've come to realize that I'm kind of in between sizes in 467 00:24:03,496 --> 00:24:06,387 that shoe. Last year, I ran in a 10 and it 468 00:24:06,387 --> 00:24:09,536 was a comfortable fit, but I knew it was just a little too 469 00:24:09,536 --> 00:24:12,215 long. So for indoor season at the end 470 00:24:12,215 --> 00:24:17,779 of last year, I got a 9.5 and it fit the way I felt a spike 471 00:24:17,779 --> 00:24:22,637 should fit — but it made the arch of the left shoe just hit 472 00:24:22,637 --> 00:24:27,240 my arch in the wrong place. And it's kind of made me realize 473 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,838 that I have this problem in every Nike racing shoe. 474 00:24:30,839 --> 00:24:34,921 I've always gotten a little bit of arch pain in the Vaporfly and 475 00:24:34,921 --> 00:24:37,119 the Alphafly, and now the Victory 2. 476 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,201 But it was not bad enough where I would stop running in it 477 00:24:41,201 --> 00:24:44,338 because I love how fast I run in those shoes. 478 00:24:44,339 --> 00:24:48,369 But the pain from this size 9.5 Victory 2 spike is enough where 479 00:24:48,369 --> 00:24:52,089 I'm like, "All right, I've got to find a different spike that's 480 00:24:52,089 --> 00:24:57,770 not doing this to me." So I just ordered the On Cloud 481 00:24:57,770 --> 00:25:02,160 Spike — their mid-distance one. That's supposed to be arriving 482 00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,892 this week and I can't wait to test it this weekend at the 483 00:25:05,892 --> 00:25:07,439 track. Should be exciting. 484 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:08,278 Yeah. Yeah. 485 00:25:08,279 --> 00:25:10,807 Sweet. I actually have — what are you 486 00:25:10,807 --> 00:25:12,540 touching? I've got two or three — one old 487 00:25:12,540 --> 00:25:14,098 one that I've kind of gone back to. 488 00:25:14,099 --> 00:25:18,540 The other two are somewhat new. And I've talked about this, but 489 00:25:18,540 --> 00:25:22,858 I've got the Brooks Ghost Max 4, which I've really been enjoying. 490 00:25:22,859 --> 00:25:25,979 Again, I had to go a half-size up, so I'm a 10.5 in this. 491 00:25:25,980 --> 00:25:28,543 The last two versions felt slightly short — my toes were 492 00:25:28,543 --> 00:25:32,139 hitting the end of the shoe. Even though version 3 wasn't 493 00:25:32,139 --> 00:25:34,122 narrow. It was definitely on the wider 494 00:25:34,122 --> 00:25:35,555 side. This goes the opposite direction 495 00:25:35,555 --> 00:25:38,363 — where even with the half size up, it's definitely more narrow, 496 00:25:38,363 --> 00:25:40,469 and I don't particularly enjoy the tapered toe box. 497 00:25:40,469 --> 00:25:43,558 But the rest of it I'm really enjoying. 498 00:25:43,559 --> 00:25:47,223 And the Ghost Max — again, whether this is a running shoe 499 00:25:47,223 --> 00:25:50,578 is up for debate — but for walking and standing, hmm. 500 00:25:50,579 --> 00:25:53,680 This shoe does a great job. It's definitely got that 501 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,864 stable-neutral component. The deep footbed will take 502 00:25:55,864 --> 00:25:57,719 orthotics well if that's something you want. 503 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,585 It is really comfortable. It just took a little time for 504 00:26:00,585 --> 00:26:03,426 the midsole to break in. Still — I've done a few runs in 505 00:26:03,426 --> 00:26:04,945 it. Good for shorter distance stuff, 506 00:26:04,945 --> 00:26:08,539 but just not bouncy — not what I'd be hoping for out of a 507 00:26:08,539 --> 00:26:11,355 running shoe — but it's been really awesome for walking long 508 00:26:11,355 --> 00:26:13,403 periods. I have tons of clinic days and 509 00:26:13,403 --> 00:26:15,598 long teaching days in this shoe. It's been great. 510 00:26:15,599 --> 00:26:18,437 I forgot about that too. I've been wearing it to work 511 00:26:18,437 --> 00:26:20,675 too. Yeah, it's awesome for walking 512 00:26:20,675 --> 00:26:24,419 around — being on your feet — but not for running for me. 513 00:26:24,420 --> 00:26:25,919 Probably not for running. Yeah. 514 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,320 The other shoe — maybe one of the bigger disappointments of 515 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,920 the year — is the ASICS Kayano 33, which is not what I was 516 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,815 hoping for. It has gone back to being much 517 00:26:40,815 --> 00:26:42,680 firmer. The bouncy ride — somewhat 518 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,239 bouncy ride — of version 32 is not there anymore. 519 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,916 They talk about FF Blast Max, which I have yet to experience 520 00:26:48,916 --> 00:26:52,282 as that super bouncy, fun, responsive ride in any FF Blast 521 00:26:52,282 --> 00:26:56,999 Max that I have put on. And they've gone back with a 522 00:26:56,999 --> 00:26:59,410 firmer sole. It's just made the heel 523 00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:02,206 clunkier. And what's really weird is — so 524 00:27:02,206 --> 00:27:06,493 they've got this design where they have — what should I call 525 00:27:06,493 --> 00:27:10,271 it — a bottom layer. Forgetting the name of it, but 526 00:27:10,271 --> 00:27:13,919 it's another firmer foam bottom layer with a softer top layer. 527 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,761 And so it's supposed to use some geometry to kind of cradle you 528 00:27:16,761 --> 00:27:18,953 in. You can see things like — hey, 529 00:27:18,953 --> 00:27:22,014 the outsole comes a little — this bottom layer comes a little 530 00:27:22,014 --> 00:27:24,298 farther on the medial and lateral sides of the forefoot. 531 00:27:24,299 --> 00:27:26,399 And so they actually call this "Fluid Support." 532 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,616 I can actually feel the forefoot stability in this shoe, which is 533 00:27:30,616 --> 00:27:32,992 actually decent. You can see in the heel there's 534 00:27:32,992 --> 00:27:35,621 also a piece that comes up relative to the lateral side 535 00:27:35,621 --> 00:27:38,726 that I can definitely feel — it almost feels like I'm sitting in 536 00:27:38,726 --> 00:27:40,392 a slightly inverted position at the heel. 537 00:27:40,392 --> 00:27:42,058 But then the midfoot doesn't feel supportive. 538 00:27:42,059 --> 00:27:45,094 It's like they took out the 4D Guidance System that used to 539 00:27:45,094 --> 00:27:46,858 transition you out of it really nicely. 540 00:27:46,859 --> 00:27:50,326 And honestly, I felt like this is one of the least supportive 541 00:27:50,326 --> 00:27:53,206 midfoots in a Kayano that I think I've ever experienced, 542 00:27:53,206 --> 00:27:56,219 which has been irritating. Fits much better, though. 543 00:27:56,220 --> 00:27:58,764 It's not as narrow as the previous version. 544 00:27:58,764 --> 00:28:02,689 But — yeah, this shoe is having a bit of an identity crisis, 545 00:28:02,689 --> 00:28:05,972 where they're calling it more of a "natural stability," and I 546 00:28:05,972 --> 00:28:09,846 just feel like it's less stable. And it's not been a super fun 547 00:28:09,846 --> 00:28:12,179 shoe to run in. It's been great to walk in. 548 00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:16,948 I've used it — again, like the Ghost Max — I've used this for 549 00:28:16,948 --> 00:28:19,097 walking and standing. Really comfortable during that, 550 00:28:19,097 --> 00:28:23,448 but just the higher impact during running has just not been 551 00:28:23,448 --> 00:28:26,443 comfortable. And yeah, I just don't know what 552 00:28:26,443 --> 00:28:29,345 to make of this. So still in the process of 553 00:28:29,345 --> 00:28:31,604 writing the review. I think for walking, it's going 554 00:28:31,604 --> 00:28:35,118 to be great — which is what most people in the United States use 555 00:28:35,118 --> 00:28:37,519 running shoes for anyway. So I think that's going to be 556 00:28:37,519 --> 00:28:39,220 really successful. From a running perspective, I 557 00:28:39,220 --> 00:28:41,038 feel like it takes several steps back. 558 00:28:41,039 --> 00:28:43,820 It's also heavier. It's like 0.3 ounce heavier than 559 00:28:43,820 --> 00:28:47,048 the previous version. And actually they lowered the 560 00:28:47,048 --> 00:28:50,716 stack height slightly. So I would have expected that to 561 00:28:50,716 --> 00:28:52,356 drop weight, not increase weight. 562 00:28:52,356 --> 00:28:56,303 But yeah, man. That shoe and the Nike Structure 563 00:28:56,303 --> 00:28:59,759 Plus have been major disappointments this year. 564 00:28:59,759 --> 00:29:03,298 And ironically, that shoe also works much better for walking 565 00:29:03,299 --> 00:29:06,095 than running. David and I have had similar 566 00:29:06,095 --> 00:29:08,399 experiences — great for walking, but running, that heel 567 00:29:08,399 --> 00:29:10,985 transition is so clunky. But luckily, I'm not totally 568 00:29:10,985 --> 00:29:13,799 disappointed because we've had some great stability shoes from 569 00:29:13,799 --> 00:29:16,919 Saucony — the Omni and the Hurricane have been awesome. 570 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,379 And — I'm going to mess this word up. 571 00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:23,374 This is the new shoe. I can't pronounce correctly — 572 00:29:23,374 --> 00:29:25,439 the Gaviota. Damn it. 573 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,009 Okay. So the Gaviota 6 from Hoka has 574 00:29:29,009 --> 00:29:31,799 also been awesome. So there are some good things, 575 00:29:31,799 --> 00:29:34,439 but we've just got to move away from clunky stability shoes. 576 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,239 It's 2026. Come on. 577 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,140 So my only last one — which I've already done a 100-mile review 578 00:29:40,140 --> 00:29:43,439 on — I haven't written it up on the website yet. 579 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,554 I probably should — is the On Cloud Monster Hyper 3 — or Hyper 580 00:29:47,554 --> 00:29:50,459 3, however you say it. I've gone back to using this 581 00:29:50,459 --> 00:29:52,139 shoe kind of after my rough race. 582 00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:54,810 I went back to not using carbon-plated super shoes and 583 00:29:54,810 --> 00:29:57,479 I've just been doing all my speed stuff in this. 584 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,078 This is such a good shoe. And I have 140 miles on this. 585 00:30:01,079 --> 00:30:02,399 This is my left shoe. That's the wear. 586 00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,399 Wow. So again, it's $280. 587 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,914 It's an expensive shoe, but durability and the upper not 588 00:30:08,914 --> 00:30:12,196 losing its fit — I've had zero blistering, I've had no issues 589 00:30:12,196 --> 00:30:15,004 with sliding in this, and every time I'm like, "It's gonna suck 590 00:30:15,004 --> 00:30:18,819 because there's no way I can do this without laces" — it's been 591 00:30:18,819 --> 00:30:20,280 great. It's something I keep 592 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:22,798 gravitating back towards, and if I have to do any longer races, 593 00:30:22,799 --> 00:30:26,074 I'm probably going to grab this because it's one of the few — I 594 00:30:26,074 --> 00:30:27,959 know it's not plated — it's stiff. 595 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,838 It's the closest thing to a stable racing shoe that we have. 596 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:36,352 It's the lightest one. I just did a video with the 361 597 00:30:36,352 --> 00:30:41,356 Flame 5 and the Hoka Rocket X3. This is lighter than both of 598 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:42,899 those. That's crazy. 599 00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:46,259 So it's just been a really fun shoe. 600 00:30:46,259 --> 00:30:49,587 And I think if you have some stability needs and you want a 601 00:30:49,587 --> 00:30:53,171 unique upper and a durable shoe — it's been great — and I keep 602 00:30:53,171 --> 00:30:55,987 gravitating back to it. And I may actually get to that 603 00:30:55,987 --> 00:30:59,053 200 to 400 mile range that Nathan was challenging me to go, 604 00:30:59,053 --> 00:31:01,858 "What happens with that upper?" So we will see what happens. 605 00:31:01,859 --> 00:31:04,977 I was really bummed that the high medial sidewall in that 606 00:31:04,977 --> 00:31:08,656 shoe just didn't work for me, because it feels like it fits my 607 00:31:08,656 --> 00:31:11,299 foot. Like, it does feel like it would 608 00:31:11,299 --> 00:31:14,999 stay on, but I'm not running it with that high sidewall. 609 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:18,254 It is insanely high, which is what makes it so incredibly 610 00:31:18,254 --> 00:31:21,194 stable for me. Although — I mentioned this in a 611 00:31:21,194 --> 00:31:25,003 previous video — it's one of those shoes where, when I run in 612 00:31:25,003 --> 00:31:28,226 something that's too stable, my medial arch will kind of spasm 613 00:31:28,226 --> 00:31:29,984 during runs. And that's definitely what 614 00:31:29,984 --> 00:31:33,793 happened the first few runs. I thought it was not going to be 615 00:31:33,793 --> 00:31:35,939 stable enough. And then I went, "Oh." 616 00:31:35,940 --> 00:31:38,818 And then it just broke in and I'm like, I can do long runs. 617 00:31:38,819 --> 00:31:41,891 I could do track work, intervals, long tempos — 618 00:31:41,891 --> 00:31:44,278 everything — and not have a problem. 619 00:31:44,279 --> 00:31:47,191 And I'm like, "I bet Andrea is going to think — this is not 620 00:31:47,191 --> 00:31:49,895 going to work for her at all — because that sidewall is going 621 00:31:49,895 --> 00:31:51,479 to crush her." There you go. 622 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,200 Isn't it interesting? You know, On has some really 623 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,909 interesting shoes right now. And they certainly did not 624 00:31:58,909 --> 00:32:03,689 advertise the Cloud Monster Hyper 3 as a stability racing 625 00:32:03,689 --> 00:32:08,468 shoe or even a stability performance shoe — but that's 626 00:32:08,468 --> 00:32:10,499 what it is. Really? 627 00:32:10,499 --> 00:32:13,064 Yeah. And we've definitely found that 628 00:32:13,064 --> 00:32:18,555 with several of their shoes this year — what On said it was for 629 00:32:18,555 --> 00:32:22,083 was not what we specifically found it good at. 630 00:32:22,083 --> 00:32:26,395 But they've just made some very different shoes that serve very 631 00:32:26,395 --> 00:32:29,399 specific purposes. And if that meets your needs, 632 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:34,579 it's going to be an incredible value and there aren't other 633 00:32:34,579 --> 00:32:37,479 comparable shoes. I think the regular Cloud 634 00:32:37,479 --> 00:32:42,566 Monster Hyper 3 is just such a great example of what a super 635 00:32:42,566 --> 00:32:46,164 trainer should be. It's light, you can run a 636 00:32:46,164 --> 00:32:50,038 variety of paces in it. It fits comfortably. 637 00:32:50,039 --> 00:32:52,798 It doesn't feel clunky, it's not unstable. 638 00:32:52,799 --> 00:32:57,959 Did anyone on our team dislike it? 639 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,058 There's not a single person that I think dislikes it. 640 00:33:00,059 --> 00:33:02,505 Which is remarkable. So, you know, you're comparing. 641 00:33:02,505 --> 00:33:05,503 Right — because we often have been, like, hard on On. 642 00:33:05,503 --> 00:33:07,679 Like, "What the hell are you guys doing?" 643 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,020 And then all of a sudden you're like, "Whoa, where did this come 644 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:11,700 from?" Like, guys did their homework 645 00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,035 for sure. I don't know if you intended it 646 00:33:14,035 --> 00:33:16,259 to land this way, but I'm sure they did. 647 00:33:16,259 --> 00:33:17,249 Of course. Yeah. 648 00:33:17,249 --> 00:33:19,943 Yeah. But then you compare that shoe 649 00:33:19,943 --> 00:33:24,266 to the Hyperion Max 4, which is technically in the same 650 00:33:24,266 --> 00:33:26,573 category. It's heavier, it's clunkier, the 651 00:33:26,573 --> 00:33:31,266 fit is bad. It's just — Brooks, in my 652 00:33:31,266 --> 00:33:35,399 opinion, has some catching up to do. 653 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,772 They definitely have potential. I know — it's just kind of the 654 00:33:37,772 --> 00:33:40,727 way things go. Like, I think companies kind of 655 00:33:40,727 --> 00:33:43,869 shift where they are. I think like Saucony, for 656 00:33:43,869 --> 00:33:46,587 example, has definitely suddenly pulled ahead on the midsole 657 00:33:46,587 --> 00:33:49,305 front — they're making the bounciest, softest midsoles on 658 00:33:49,305 --> 00:33:52,918 the planet — which a couple years ago was definitely not the 659 00:33:52,918 --> 00:33:54,847 case. And I would have argued going, 660 00:33:54,847 --> 00:33:57,828 "Saucony, you guys are kind of falling behind a little bit. 661 00:33:57,828 --> 00:34:00,538 Your super shoes kind of aren't standing out that much. 662 00:34:00,539 --> 00:34:02,999 Like, what are you doing?" And then now they've pulled 663 00:34:02,999 --> 00:34:05,210 ahead. And I think companies like — you 664 00:34:05,210 --> 00:34:08,485 know — ASICS is doing some interesting things, but a lot of 665 00:34:08,485 --> 00:34:11,487 their trainers make you go, "Hey, like, what are you guys 666 00:34:11,487 --> 00:34:13,239 doing? You're advertising some really 667 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,138 intense foams, but what is happening here?" 668 00:34:16,139 --> 00:34:20,043 So I think — and then look at a company like Mizuno, who was 669 00:34:20,043 --> 00:34:22,136 traditional for years. I talk about this all the time — 670 00:34:22,136 --> 00:34:24,010 they were traditional for years. And I was like, "You guys ever 671 00:34:24,010 --> 00:34:25,101 going to come into the current day?" 672 00:34:25,101 --> 00:34:27,286 And then I had to eat my words: "You guys are making the most 673 00:34:27,286 --> 00:34:29,393 crazy stuff." And also — probably comparable 674 00:34:29,393 --> 00:34:33,702 with Saucony — you have some of the bounciest foams out there. 675 00:34:33,702 --> 00:34:38,002 And your other companies — your Nike, your Adidas — I think 676 00:34:38,002 --> 00:34:41,581 yeah, some of the main companies are definitely changing where 677 00:34:41,581 --> 00:34:44,158 they are. Puma is another great example. 678 00:34:44,159 --> 00:34:46,918 They've been pretty aggressive from the start — consistent. 679 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,248 They've been aggressive since the get-go — the Fast R 3, the 680 00:34:50,248 --> 00:34:52,742 things they're doing — you know, they're holding that. 681 00:34:52,742 --> 00:34:54,958 But I'm sure things will shift, you know? 682 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,279 And so that's just the state of where things are — and the only 683 00:34:58,279 --> 00:34:59,938 constant is that it's going to change. 684 00:34:59,940 --> 00:35:01,798 And people are going to move differently. 685 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,294 So we'll have to see where the catch-up games are, and it may 686 00:35:05,294 --> 00:35:07,438 also just be that companies have different focuses. 687 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:08,938 As a company, their themes are different. 688 00:35:08,940 --> 00:35:12,461 So, you know — Brooks, for example — the Ghost Max 4, I am 689 00:35:12,461 --> 00:35:14,218 sure, is going to sell super well. 690 00:35:14,219 --> 00:35:17,945 It's so comfortable, and it's definitely catered to the 691 00:35:17,945 --> 00:35:22,498 recreational runner or those who are standing and walking a lot. 692 00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:24,990 That's a lot of who they have to focus on because, you know, 693 00:35:24,990 --> 00:35:26,518 they've got to see who they're selling to. 694 00:35:26,519 --> 00:35:28,969 So the performance stuff has been interesting, and I think 695 00:35:28,969 --> 00:35:32,878 they have a little bit of a ways to go — but I have no doubts, 696 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,052 because I know the people who are in charge of this have some 697 00:35:36,052 --> 00:35:37,516 pretty good stuff behind their name. 698 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:40,198 Figuring things out at a new company is a different story. 699 00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:42,958 So I'm curious to see what happens. 700 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,270 But I'm pretty sure they're looking at us going, "Hey, we 701 00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:47,158 finished working on that shoe like four years ago. 702 00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:51,072 So just wait." Yeah, and you know, Brooks has 703 00:35:51,072 --> 00:35:55,692 signed a number of high-profile runners, and that assists in 704 00:35:55,692 --> 00:35:59,032 moving R&D along too. So yeah, I have high hopes for 705 00:35:59,032 --> 00:35:59,815 Brooks too. Yeah. 706 00:35:59,815 --> 00:36:04,430 So that of course went longer than we thought — but let's talk 707 00:36:04,430 --> 00:36:07,978 about categorization, which is kind of in the same vein. 708 00:36:07,980 --> 00:36:11,218 Let's talk about categorization. Do you want to lead this off? 709 00:36:11,219 --> 00:36:14,155 Do you want me to? We have decided that we want to 710 00:36:14,155 --> 00:36:17,818 streamline our shoe categories and kind of get back to basics. 711 00:36:17,820 --> 00:36:23,072 So, you know, in the past we've called a shoe "maximal" or a 712 00:36:23,072 --> 00:36:27,112 "super trainer," but now most shoes fall into the maximal 713 00:36:27,112 --> 00:36:31,147 category, and that's not very descriptive of what it's going 714 00:36:31,147 --> 00:36:36,491 to be used for. You know, you can have a shoe 715 00:36:36,491 --> 00:36:41,282 that has a 40-millimeter heel and a 32-millimeter forefoot, 716 00:36:41,282 --> 00:36:47,666 and you could be talking about a Vaporfly, a super trainer, a 717 00:36:47,666 --> 00:36:51,922 Kayano. It's the wild west now in terms 718 00:36:51,922 --> 00:36:55,839 of stack heights. And you know, last year I made a 719 00:36:55,839 --> 00:36:59,029 very short list of shoes that actually have stack heights in 720 00:36:59,029 --> 00:37:01,929 the 20s — because there just aren't that many left. 721 00:37:01,929 --> 00:37:05,699 And this year I can probably cross a couple more off the list 722 00:37:05,699 --> 00:37:08,889 because those shoes got an upgrade and now they're in the 723 00:37:08,889 --> 00:37:11,643 30s. So we have decided to just use 724 00:37:11,643 --> 00:37:16,207 four shoe categories — and that kind of goes back to, not the 725 00:37:16,207 --> 00:37:20,770 olden times, but for those of us who were born in the 1900s, 726 00:37:20,770 --> 00:37:23,578 there weren't as many shoe categories back then. 727 00:37:23,579 --> 00:37:28,798 So the four categories we're going to be using are: neutral 728 00:37:28,798 --> 00:37:32,116 daily trainer, stability daily trainer, performance trainer, 729 00:37:32,116 --> 00:37:36,059 and racing shoe. And we just feel like that's a 730 00:37:36,059 --> 00:37:39,658 very clear description of what each shoe is used for. 731 00:37:39,659 --> 00:37:43,704 And then we can get into the details of, "Well, it has this 732 00:37:43,704 --> 00:37:47,747 stack height," or "it's plated," or "it has a super foam" — or 733 00:37:47,747 --> 00:37:50,561 whatever. But it's very clear what the 734 00:37:50,561 --> 00:37:54,722 intended use of a particular shoe is from those four 735 00:37:54,722 --> 00:37:56,759 categories. And I think one of the 736 00:37:56,759 --> 00:37:59,999 challenges — you mentioned this earlier — is going, "Oh, we used 737 00:37:59,999 --> 00:38:02,429 to say 'maximal,' but now literally everything is sitting 738 00:38:02,429 --> 00:38:04,759 in that category." Like, people get all upset 739 00:38:04,759 --> 00:38:08,701 going, "Oh, it has to be 40 millimeters to be race legal" — 740 00:38:08,701 --> 00:38:12,337 but even some of the normal shoes, like the Hoka Bondi or 741 00:38:12,337 --> 00:38:14,458 the Clifton, are sitting above 40 millimeters. 742 00:38:14,460 --> 00:38:18,839 What's another example? Like a daily trainer — like the 743 00:38:18,839 --> 00:38:20,158 Hurricane, actually, from Saucony. 744 00:38:20,159 --> 00:38:22,018 I think that's sitting over 40 millimeters. 745 00:38:22,019 --> 00:38:25,889 And those are daily trainers. Those are shoes that lots of 746 00:38:25,889 --> 00:38:28,739 people use for marathons — things like that — that 747 00:38:28,739 --> 00:38:31,018 technically are now illegal at the elite level. 748 00:38:31,019 --> 00:38:33,919 It doesn't really matter. For the majority of us — your 749 00:38:33,919 --> 00:38:36,682 recreational runner — that's not something you have to worry 750 00:38:36,682 --> 00:38:39,641 about. But at the end of the day, 751 00:38:39,641 --> 00:38:41,938 everything basically is becoming that category. 752 00:38:41,940 --> 00:38:46,980 Like you said, there aren't that many shoes with stack heights in 753 00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:50,069 the 20s anymore. To be honest, there are probably 754 00:38:50,069 --> 00:38:52,198 more shoes with stack heights below that. 755 00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:56,234 Right? Simply because Xero has so many 756 00:38:56,234 --> 00:39:00,119 different models. Xero — or even like the Vibram 757 00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:02,638 barefoot series — are still around. 758 00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:05,255 You have Topo that makes some stuff in that range, Altra that 759 00:39:05,255 --> 00:39:08,079 makes some stuff in that range, but they also — even Topo and 760 00:39:08,079 --> 00:39:09,598 Altra — there's nothing in the 20s. 761 00:39:09,599 --> 00:39:14,347 Everything else — it's either in the teens or it's in the 30s and 762 00:39:14,347 --> 00:39:16,678 40s, and nothing really sits in between. 763 00:39:16,679 --> 00:39:19,883 So it's going, "Okay, why are we getting that specific when at 764 00:39:19,883 --> 00:39:23,610 the end of the day, there are some better ways — like, is this 765 00:39:23,610 --> 00:39:25,738 just a shoe for your normal daily miles? 766 00:39:25,739 --> 00:39:29,067 Is this a shoe that has a little bit more versatility as a 767 00:39:29,067 --> 00:39:31,363 performance trainer? Or is this shoe really meant for 768 00:39:31,363 --> 00:39:33,593 racing?" And part of the problem too — 769 00:39:33,593 --> 00:39:37,259 and I think I'm certainly at fault for this — is going, "Oh, 770 00:39:37,259 --> 00:39:40,079 this shoe can do performance, therefore a lot of recreational 771 00:39:40,079 --> 00:39:43,170 runners can probably use this for a marathon," and then — 772 00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:45,418 should I be calling this a racing shoe? 773 00:39:45,420 --> 00:39:50,178 No, because back in the day — back when you and I were in, you 774 00:39:50,178 --> 00:39:53,982 know, a while ago, before all this stuff got crazy — people 775 00:39:53,982 --> 00:39:56,518 would use performance trainers as their marathon racer. 776 00:39:56,519 --> 00:40:00,118 Like, there weren't a lot of marathon-specific racing shoes. 777 00:40:00,119 --> 00:40:03,520 It was just racing flats that the elites would use for a full 778 00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:06,130 marathon, and the rest of us would use performance trainers 779 00:40:06,130 --> 00:40:08,218 or a trainer to get through that distance. 780 00:40:08,219 --> 00:40:10,919 And now going, yeah, you know, things are starting to 781 00:40:10,919 --> 00:40:13,498 homogenize a little bit. Did I use that word right? 782 00:40:13,500 --> 00:40:16,318 Yeah. It's getting, yeah. 783 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,926 Like, you've got enough maximal stack height — okay, well, the 784 00:40:18,926 --> 00:40:21,238 basic foundations are starting to get more similar. 785 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,698 Like, everything's tall or everything's minimal. 786 00:40:23,699 --> 00:40:26,825 Either things are meant for daily training, they have a 787 00:40:26,825 --> 00:40:30,838 little bit more versatility, or they are purely for racing. 788 00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:32,518 And that's kind of where we're getting back to. 789 00:40:32,519 --> 00:40:35,158 And it goes back to the idea of — let's try to simplify this. 790 00:40:35,159 --> 00:40:38,039 I think the whole point of Doctors of Running is to help 791 00:40:38,039 --> 00:40:41,159 teach people and try to keep things — it's very complex — but 792 00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:43,078 we're trying not to keep information locked up. 793 00:40:43,079 --> 00:40:45,490 We want to make this more simple. 794 00:40:45,490 --> 00:40:49,274 And going back to trying to help ease consumers' understanding of 795 00:40:49,274 --> 00:40:50,818 categorization I think is a really key thing. 796 00:40:50,820 --> 00:40:54,280 So do you want to give some examples of how we're kind of 797 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,010 working through this? Well, I think the Hyperion Max 798 00:40:57,010 --> 00:40:59,578 is a really good example to talk about. 799 00:40:59,579 --> 00:41:05,509 So the stack height in the heel is, I think, 42 — and forefoot 800 00:41:05,509 --> 00:41:07,159 is 36, right? Yeah. 801 00:41:07,159 --> 00:41:11,698 Wait, I actually don't know what we called it on our review. 802 00:41:11,699 --> 00:41:16,243 We probably called it a maximum trainer — some conundrum of what 803 00:41:16,243 --> 00:41:22,091 we put there. This shoe is, in my opinion, a 804 00:41:22,091 --> 00:41:25,491 neutral daily trainer. I know you would not call it 805 00:41:25,491 --> 00:41:27,179 neutral. You would call it immediately 806 00:41:27,179 --> 00:41:29,278 biased, but it's certainly a daily trainer. 807 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,158 We called it "maximal plated super trainer." 808 00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:34,092 Okay. I don't know if you did that or 809 00:41:34,092 --> 00:41:36,660 — it's probably me that did that, because I feel like you're 810 00:41:36,660 --> 00:41:38,158 much better at keeping things really straightforward. 811 00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:41,909 So that's probably my fault. Well, but yeah — if somebody 812 00:41:41,909 --> 00:41:45,118 hears "maximal plated super trainer" — what does that mean? 813 00:41:45,119 --> 00:41:47,518 It doesn't really — it tells you it has a plate. 814 00:41:47,519 --> 00:41:49,858 And it tells you it has a high stack height. 815 00:41:49,860 --> 00:41:52,259 But what are you supposed to use it for? 816 00:41:52,260 --> 00:41:55,858 Are you supposed to race in it? I wouldn't race in this. 817 00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:58,817 It's very heavy. I mean, some people will race in 818 00:41:58,817 --> 00:42:01,858 this, but for most people this is going to be a daily trainer. 819 00:42:01,860 --> 00:42:05,398 It doesn't have any stability features. 820 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,304 In fact, it's going to drive you immediately in the midfoot 821 00:42:08,304 --> 00:42:11,485 because of the cutout. So in our new categorization, 822 00:42:11,485 --> 00:42:14,878 this would just be a neutral daily trainer. 823 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:19,633 Simple. And then you read the review and 824 00:42:19,633 --> 00:42:24,695 you understand — okay, how did we experience it, what paces is 825 00:42:24,695 --> 00:42:29,747 it best at, what's the stability actually like — but there's no 826 00:42:29,747 --> 00:42:33,957 need for categories to be complex like they have been 827 00:42:33,957 --> 00:42:36,373 getting. And I will say one of the things 828 00:42:36,373 --> 00:42:39,979 that we've talked about — and BJ has really mentioned — is that 829 00:42:39,979 --> 00:42:43,814 even if we have — like for me, having worked in the running 830 00:42:43,814 --> 00:42:47,649 industry, my gut is to go, "Oh, we should at least be calling 831 00:42:47,649 --> 00:42:51,184 this a performance trainer," but we're going to be labeling it as 832 00:42:51,184 --> 00:42:54,418 it actually functions, not as the company's given us a label. 833 00:42:54,420 --> 00:42:58,138 And so if you go, "Yeah, there is a little pace for stability, 834 00:42:58,138 --> 00:43:01,856 but in my opinion it's not that much more versatile" — and then 835 00:43:01,856 --> 00:43:05,062 a lot of shoes like the ASICS Nimbus, I think I would do 836 00:43:05,062 --> 00:43:06,718 similar things — if not run a little quicker. 837 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,374 And I would still label the ASICS Nimbus as a neutral daily 838 00:43:10,374 --> 00:43:12,099 trainer. Even though it's stable neutral, 839 00:43:12,099 --> 00:43:15,786 it's actually probably one of the most stable — man, I want to 840 00:43:15,786 --> 00:43:18,720 argue with BJ now. And be like, "Can we have a 841 00:43:18,720 --> 00:43:19,748 stable neutral category, please?" 842 00:43:19,748 --> 00:43:22,318 Like, can we — this is where the problem starts. 843 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:23,458 This is where the problem starts. 844 00:43:23,460 --> 00:43:29,760 I want to like... Shoes that Andrea and Matt 845 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,958 vehemently disagree on. Yeah, I mean, yeah. 846 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,536 So I might still make a plug for "stable neutral," because again, 847 00:43:37,536 --> 00:43:41,704 the Nimbus is a great example of this — but this is also the 848 00:43:41,704 --> 00:43:43,260 rabbit hole. It explains why my 849 00:43:43,260 --> 00:43:44,938 categorizations have just gotten out of control. 850 00:43:44,940 --> 00:43:47,424 I think this is a me problem. It's just me having these super 851 00:43:47,424 --> 00:43:50,213 long categorizations — and BJ going, "I'm tired of having to 852 00:43:50,213 --> 00:43:52,378 edit this every time, dude. You've got to stop." 853 00:43:52,380 --> 00:43:54,068 Here's a question for you. Yeah. 854 00:43:54,068 --> 00:43:57,718 So if we have two categories — one is a neutral daily trainer, 855 00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,602 one is a stability daily trainer — that technically could 856 00:44:01,602 --> 00:44:04,498 encompass shoes that are stable neutral, right? 857 00:44:04,500 --> 00:44:09,208 So you could either have neutral shoes that don't provide 858 00:44:09,208 --> 00:44:13,139 guidance at all, and then you have shoes that do have guidance 859 00:44:13,139 --> 00:44:16,489 features — and those guidance features could be in one or more 860 00:44:16,489 --> 00:44:19,279 directions depending on which part of the shoe you're talking 861 00:44:19,279 --> 00:44:22,282 about. So in my mind, it actually makes 862 00:44:22,282 --> 00:44:26,162 more sense to throw the stable-neutral shoes in with the 863 00:44:26,162 --> 00:44:29,158 stability trainers. Oh, interesting. 864 00:44:29,159 --> 00:44:33,332 Because that's how we talk about stability anyway — when we 865 00:44:33,332 --> 00:44:37,880 discuss stability, it's not just like, "Well, this is a Kayano or 866 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,806 it's not." We talk about the ways in which 867 00:44:41,806 --> 00:44:47,228 it guides motion or it doesn't. So if it's a shoe that truly 868 00:44:47,228 --> 00:44:51,900 doesn't guide motion — and there are shoes like that — then 869 00:44:51,900 --> 00:44:55,841 that's a neutral shoe. But if the shoe has significant 870 00:44:55,841 --> 00:44:59,982 guidance features, then I think that would go in a stability 871 00:44:59,982 --> 00:45:03,288 category. And I think we just have to be 872 00:45:03,288 --> 00:45:06,582 clear that when we say "stability," we aren't talking 873 00:45:06,582 --> 00:45:09,143 about the traditional understanding of stability — 874 00:45:09,143 --> 00:45:11,698 which means something that prevents medial motion. 875 00:45:11,699 --> 00:45:15,058 Well, that doesn't really exist because you can't prevent it. 876 00:45:15,059 --> 00:45:17,038 Well, yes — you might be able to change the rate. 877 00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:20,556 You might be able to change a little bit of it, but you can't 878 00:45:20,556 --> 00:45:22,138 prevent it. No, that's true. 879 00:45:22,139 --> 00:45:27,118 So again, that description is something we need to figure out. 880 00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:29,759 But so how would you categorize this shoe? 881 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:33,556 Since I haven't actually run in it, I can't really say — but 882 00:45:33,556 --> 00:45:37,636 just from the way it feels on my foot when I try walking around 883 00:45:37,636 --> 00:45:41,081 in it, it feels like a shoe that's pushing me significantly 884 00:45:41,081 --> 00:45:44,864 laterally. So I wouldn't call it a neutral 885 00:45:44,864 --> 00:45:47,810 shoe. But so our major categories — to 886 00:45:47,810 --> 00:45:50,960 clarify — are going to be neutral, stability, performance, 887 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:52,438 and racing. Correct? 888 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:55,831 Right? So would you put this in racing 889 00:45:55,831 --> 00:45:58,078 or would you put this in performance? 890 00:45:58,079 --> 00:46:01,918 Based on your description? Yeah, I don't know. 891 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,618 We're trying to figure out what our description is. 892 00:46:04,619 --> 00:46:06,238 Right, because we do need to be consistent about that. 893 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,888 True. So I think On probably intended 894 00:46:09,888 --> 00:46:14,706 it to be a performance shoe, but like many performance shoes, 895 00:46:14,706 --> 00:46:20,827 some people would race in it — but it might not be that brand's 896 00:46:20,827 --> 00:46:24,127 top-tier racing shoe. It's probably not marketed 897 00:46:24,127 --> 00:46:27,812 specifically for racing. So I would put it in the 898 00:46:27,812 --> 00:46:29,578 performance category. Got it. 899 00:46:29,579 --> 00:46:33,568 And I think now that I'm dealing with this — I would totally 900 00:46:33,568 --> 00:46:36,628 agree — because we have two categories for trainers, and 901 00:46:36,628 --> 00:46:39,076 performance shoes kind of catches everything in between. 902 00:46:39,076 --> 00:46:42,748 I think you did a great job explaining that, yeah, if there 903 00:46:42,748 --> 00:46:46,420 is a stability component, we'll talk about that in our section — 904 00:46:46,420 --> 00:46:50,092 either the stability section or in our grading at the bottom — 905 00:46:50,092 --> 00:46:53,764 which we do a great job of going, "Hey, in stability, is 906 00:46:53,764 --> 00:46:55,906 this neutral, medially biased, laterally biased, stable 907 00:46:55,906 --> 00:46:58,640 neutral," whatever. And I think that's a better way 908 00:46:58,640 --> 00:47:02,276 to provide a lot less confusion — going, "Okay, here's the basic 909 00:47:02,276 --> 00:47:04,444 category." Now if you want more, read the 910 00:47:04,444 --> 00:47:06,838 rest of our review and you can dive in. 911 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,304 But if you just want the base — like, what's the major category 912 00:47:09,304 --> 00:47:13,116 — cool, you can move on. So I mean, that makes sense to 913 00:47:13,116 --> 00:47:15,018 me. What other options could we run 914 00:47:15,018 --> 00:47:17,038 into that might throw this for a loop? 915 00:47:17,039 --> 00:47:22,039 Oh, I've got one. Your least favorite shoe — the 916 00:47:22,039 --> 00:47:24,155 Mizuno Hyperwarp Pro. Okay. 917 00:47:24,155 --> 00:47:28,174 So Mizuno has a Hyperwarp line, and they've got three shoes: the 918 00:47:28,174 --> 00:47:30,178 Pro, the Elite, and the Pureflow. 919 00:47:30,179 --> 00:47:34,438 Mizuno says that the Pro is the most stable of the three. 920 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,178 When in reality, it is the most medially biased. 921 00:47:39,179 --> 00:47:43,259 And the one that you could barely run in. 922 00:47:43,260 --> 00:47:48,118 Well — I can handle it. And it is my favorite shoe. 923 00:47:48,119 --> 00:47:51,478 I don't know how many miles I have on it. 924 00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:55,362 Definitely over 100. Well, it's got that 100-mile 925 00:47:55,362 --> 00:47:59,518 review — come on. Yeah, it's not stable neutral. 926 00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:04,606 It is a heavily medially biased shoe, which works great for me 927 00:48:04,606 --> 00:48:08,790 and terribly for you. So this shoe — even though 928 00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:14,176 Mizuno advertises it as a racing shoe — I would categorize it as 929 00:48:14,176 --> 00:48:18,316 a performance shoe because they have much lighter racing shoes 930 00:48:18,316 --> 00:48:21,976 to choose from. But if we were talking about 931 00:48:21,976 --> 00:48:26,748 stability, we would have a discussion about which way it's 932 00:48:26,748 --> 00:48:29,038 encouraging motion. Right, yeah. 933 00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:32,653 Which would — again — and so that's the nice part: instead of 934 00:48:32,653 --> 00:48:35,433 having six different categories, you just call it a performance 935 00:48:35,433 --> 00:48:37,657 trainer. And then if you want to know 936 00:48:37,657 --> 00:48:40,437 what direction it's pushing you, you go read the stability 937 00:48:40,437 --> 00:48:43,495 section — because that will be very clear that it's really 938 00:48:43,495 --> 00:48:45,990 pushing you medially, for a variety of reasons including 939 00:48:45,990 --> 00:48:48,774 that excessive lateral flare. But it's still a performance 940 00:48:48,774 --> 00:48:52,114 trainer because that's kind of what it's intended as compared 941 00:48:52,114 --> 00:48:55,746 to a lot of other things. Like — would you go race in 942 00:48:55,746 --> 00:48:59,260 that? Peanut has decided to make a 943 00:48:59,260 --> 00:49:03,463 cameo on — Yep. Luckily not jumping off the bed 944 00:49:03,463 --> 00:49:06,333 or off things this time. That's what she was trying to 945 00:49:06,333 --> 00:49:07,558 do. Oh, got it. 946 00:49:07,559 --> 00:49:12,254 Yeah. So — would you race in that 947 00:49:12,254 --> 00:49:14,740 shoe? If I didn't have any other 948 00:49:14,740 --> 00:49:17,638 options, I would. Okay, got it. 949 00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:20,759 Like, I love it too, but it's not the lightest. 950 00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:25,012 It's not the bounciest. If I had to choose a Mizuno shoe 951 00:49:25,012 --> 00:49:29,296 to race in, it would be the Pure because the Pure feels a lot 952 00:49:29,296 --> 00:49:32,356 like the Pro, except it's lighter and even more responsive 953 00:49:32,356 --> 00:49:34,498 — but it's still very medially biased. 954 00:49:34,500 --> 00:49:38,140 So — and in my mind, that's what a performance shoe is supposed 955 00:49:38,140 --> 00:49:40,660 to be. It should be a shoe that you 956 00:49:40,660 --> 00:49:44,300 could race in, but it's not the lightest and the best out there, 957 00:49:44,300 --> 00:49:47,940 and it should cost a little bit less than a racing shoe and 958 00:49:47,940 --> 00:49:49,618 probably be a little more durable. 959 00:49:49,619 --> 00:49:53,355 Yeah. Let me bring up one that we 960 00:49:53,355 --> 00:49:55,078 actually agreed on — surprisingly. 961 00:49:55,079 --> 00:49:59,350 What about this one? Oh yes — the one that you 962 00:49:59,350 --> 00:50:03,667 eventually agreed with me on. I don't know if I "eventually" 963 00:50:03,667 --> 00:50:05,768 agreed. I think we were pretty much 964 00:50:05,768 --> 00:50:10,415 right off the bat like, "Oh, this is not —" I am collapsing 965 00:50:10,415 --> 00:50:12,239 immediately, actually. Yeah. 966 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,698 Yeah. Oh, version four? 967 00:50:14,699 --> 00:50:17,038 No — I do admit you were eventually right. 968 00:50:17,039 --> 00:50:19,678 Five — I think we agreed right away. 969 00:50:19,679 --> 00:50:23,962 We're like, "Oh man, like..." Well, you know, I didn't get to 970 00:50:23,962 --> 00:50:27,971 put enough miles on the five. There was a question of whether 971 00:50:27,971 --> 00:50:31,715 or not I got one with a defective upper because I really 972 00:50:31,715 --> 00:50:35,076 felt — yeah — remember, I — yeah, I had... 973 00:50:35,076 --> 00:50:40,206 If I had mine up here I would show you, but if you showed the 974 00:50:40,206 --> 00:50:45,336 back of the heel of yours — so the seam on the back of Matt's 975 00:50:45,336 --> 00:50:47,885 heel there. Turn it the other way so that — 976 00:50:47,885 --> 00:50:50,359 yep. Oh no, so the heel is facing the 977 00:50:50,359 --> 00:50:51,083 camera. Yep. 978 00:50:51,083 --> 00:50:55,078 So his seam on his heel upper is straight. 979 00:50:55,079 --> 00:50:58,318 Well, mine angled inward immediately. 980 00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:03,221 And it caused a blister on the inside of my Achilles, and it 981 00:51:03,221 --> 00:51:07,738 just made me feel like the shoe was pushing my heel inward. 982 00:51:07,739 --> 00:51:12,011 Which does not work for me. So it was so uncomfortable to 983 00:51:12,011 --> 00:51:16,595 run in that I actually contacted Saucony and told them, and sent 984 00:51:16,595 --> 00:51:21,556 them a photo, and they're like, "Oh, it looks like you got a 985 00:51:21,556 --> 00:51:24,378 defective upper. We will send you another pair" — 986 00:51:24,378 --> 00:51:28,607 but they didn't. So — I can't — I don't have 987 00:51:28,607 --> 00:51:31,978 enough data of me running in that shoe to say. 988 00:51:31,980 --> 00:51:36,367 But the one mile on the treadmill that I did run in it 989 00:51:36,367 --> 00:51:38,578 was very uncomfortable. Got it. 990 00:51:38,579 --> 00:51:39,718 Okay, this might be a bad example. 991 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:45,554 But the reason I brought this up is — yes — the Pro series has 992 00:51:45,554 --> 00:51:49,830 been a racing shoe because that was Saucony's first super racing 993 00:51:49,830 --> 00:51:51,947 shoe. However, what I had heard was 994 00:51:51,947 --> 00:51:55,979 that some of the changes made to this shoe were in line with the 995 00:51:55,979 --> 00:52:00,000 fact that a lot of people had been using the Pro series as a 996 00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:03,444 trainer — like a performance shoe — and then racing in the 997 00:52:03,444 --> 00:52:05,734 Endorphin Elite. And so some of what I'd heard 998 00:52:05,734 --> 00:52:08,914 is, "Hey, we're going to change this to kind of fit that, where 999 00:52:08,914 --> 00:52:11,748 it can handle tons of miles. It's not going to be the 1000 00:52:11,748 --> 00:52:13,709 lightest racer out there. That's not our intention with 1001 00:52:13,709 --> 00:52:15,572 this. It's — hey, if you want a racing 1002 00:52:15,572 --> 00:52:17,615 shoe, it's a little bit more durable, can handle training 1003 00:52:17,615 --> 00:52:21,213 miles. That's kind of where this is 1004 00:52:21,213 --> 00:52:23,196 set." It's supposed to be the more 1005 00:52:23,196 --> 00:52:26,500 stable option, which for me — as the heel breaks in, it gets a 1006 00:52:26,500 --> 00:52:29,568 little better — but just the way I think the plate was designed, 1007 00:52:29,568 --> 00:52:32,158 I am collapsing aggressively off the medial side of the shoe, 1008 00:52:32,158 --> 00:52:34,978 something I haven't done in the last two versions, and it just 1009 00:52:34,978 --> 00:52:37,798 made it not a shoe I was going to choose for racing. 1010 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,998 I've still been bringing it out, trying to break it in, get some 1011 00:52:40,998 --> 00:52:44,428 more miles, see if things change — but after 50 miles on and off, 1012 00:52:44,428 --> 00:52:45,898 it hasn't really changed that much. 1013 00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:47,916 So some people are going to like that. 1014 00:52:47,916 --> 00:52:51,028 I don't. But I guess I'm kind of at odds 1015 00:52:51,028 --> 00:52:55,259 going — is this a racing shoe or is it a performance shoe? 1016 00:52:55,260 --> 00:52:58,378 Well, I think what Saucony is doing is interesting. 1017 00:52:58,380 --> 00:53:01,722 And again, I preface my comments by saying I've only run a mile 1018 00:53:01,722 --> 00:53:03,778 in that shoe because of the fit issue. 1019 00:53:03,780 --> 00:53:07,318 But I like that Saucony made that shoe. 1020 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:11,518 Isn't it $225? Yeah, I don't think — let me 1021 00:53:11,518 --> 00:53:12,928 double-check that while you're talking. 1022 00:53:12,928 --> 00:53:17,476 I don't think — yeah. I think it's great that there is 1023 00:53:17,476 --> 00:53:22,396 a mid-tier racing shoe for people who don't want to drop 1024 00:53:22,396 --> 00:53:25,078 $300 on the highest-level racing shoes. 1025 00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:28,259 It's $240. Oh, okay. 1026 00:53:28,260 --> 00:53:31,899 All right. So sadly — that is a relatively 1027 00:53:31,899 --> 00:53:35,578 reasonably priced super shoe these days in 2026. 1028 00:53:35,579 --> 00:53:38,938 So Saucony says it's designed for racing. 1029 00:53:38,940 --> 00:53:43,259 If it works for you, you're going to be using it for racing. 1030 00:53:43,260 --> 00:53:48,138 It would actually be surprising to me if somebody used the Pro 1031 00:53:48,138 --> 00:53:52,198 as a performance trainer and then raced in the Elite. 1032 00:53:52,199 --> 00:53:57,157 They're such different shoes. I mean, so that's — again — what 1033 00:53:57,157 --> 00:53:59,299 I had heard directly from Saucony. 1034 00:53:59,299 --> 00:54:04,344 And for many people out there — I mean, I remember David saying 1035 00:54:04,344 --> 00:54:09,008 he feels like the Endorphin Azura is more of a training 1036 00:54:09,008 --> 00:54:13,243 version of the Endorphin Elite, simply because of the geometry. 1037 00:54:13,243 --> 00:54:17,040 But — version one, yes. I don't know if that holds with 1038 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,855 current day stuff, but yeah. So if I were to categorize the 1039 00:54:20,855 --> 00:54:24,958 Endorphin Pro 5, I would still call it a racing shoe. 1040 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,478 Got it. How about the Azura? 1041 00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,907 Have you run in that one? Yeah, it was way too firm for 1042 00:54:30,907 --> 00:54:32,719 me. I was like, there's no way 1043 00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,635 that's going to work for you because there's a lot of lateral 1044 00:54:35,635 --> 00:54:36,359 bias. Yeah. 1045 00:54:36,359 --> 00:54:39,346 Yeah. Yeah, it just felt like — I 1046 00:54:39,346 --> 00:54:44,716 mean, I like firm shoes — but it felt like that shoe had no give, 1047 00:54:44,716 --> 00:54:47,218 and it did nothing for my mechanics. 1048 00:54:47,219 --> 00:54:49,900 Got it. I definitely would put that as a 1049 00:54:49,900 --> 00:54:53,464 performance shoe — only because of its weight — and then having 1050 00:54:53,464 --> 00:54:55,254 tested it. Again, this is really important 1051 00:54:55,254 --> 00:54:57,883 for us — not going, "What is it at face value?" 1052 00:54:57,883 --> 00:55:00,984 but rather, "Let me actually do a review, put miles on it and 1053 00:55:00,984 --> 00:55:03,602 go, 'What is it?'" And I've got like 120 miles on 1054 00:55:03,602 --> 00:55:05,666 that shoe. I would definitely put that as a 1055 00:55:05,666 --> 00:55:07,655 performance shoe. Because it is light enough that 1056 00:55:07,655 --> 00:55:10,727 I think a lot of people will excel using it as a 1057 00:55:10,727 --> 00:55:13,287 marathon-type shoe — especially if they don't respond well to 1058 00:55:13,287 --> 00:55:15,847 plates but actually still want something that's a little stiff. 1059 00:55:15,847 --> 00:55:19,424 Which I'm like, every time I put that shoe on I'm like, "How is 1060 00:55:19,424 --> 00:55:21,974 this not plated?" — which again also speaks to the 1061 00:55:21,974 --> 00:55:26,040 fact that we can call something plated, and that doesn't mean 1062 00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,378 something non-plated is going to be stiff or not. 1063 00:55:28,380 --> 00:55:32,518 There are other mechanisms that feed into how stiff a shoe is. 1064 00:55:32,519 --> 00:55:40,438 Like — I think you referenced the Superblast 3. 1065 00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,418 All the Superblasts are not plated. 1066 00:55:42,420 --> 00:55:47,887 Yet these are some of the stiffest shoes, in my opinion, 1067 00:55:47,887 --> 00:55:49,828 on the market. Right. 1068 00:55:49,828 --> 00:55:55,201 And it's like — there are examples of a plated shoe that's 1069 00:55:55,201 --> 00:56:00,118 super flexible, or a non-plated shoe that's stiff as a board. 1070 00:56:00,119 --> 00:56:02,344 Right. The Endorphin Speed, actually — 1071 00:56:02,344 --> 00:56:05,626 the Speed 5 — is a great example of a shoe that's surprisingly 1072 00:56:05,626 --> 00:56:08,650 flexible for having a plate. But it speaks to the fact that 1073 00:56:08,650 --> 00:56:11,394 plates are completely different and depending on their design 1074 00:56:11,394 --> 00:56:13,154 will behave very differently. Right. 1075 00:56:13,154 --> 00:56:17,639 I think that is one of the most common misconceptions I hear 1076 00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:22,115 when dealing with runners — they think that just the presence of 1077 00:56:22,115 --> 00:56:26,218 a plate means the shoe is going to have certain characteristics. 1078 00:56:26,219 --> 00:56:30,504 And it absolutely is not. And you know, we've talked at 1079 00:56:30,504 --> 00:56:34,745 length about how the plate is not the secret sauce in super 1080 00:56:34,745 --> 00:56:37,517 shoes. There was the great study where 1081 00:56:37,517 --> 00:56:41,945 they tested Vaporflys with an intact plate or with a cut 1082 00:56:41,945 --> 00:56:44,759 plate, and the metrics were the same. 1083 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,574 So it's not about the plate. It's about the interaction of 1084 00:56:48,574 --> 00:56:50,638 all of the components of the shoe. 1085 00:56:50,639 --> 00:56:56,108 And the presence of a plate helps with some aspects of how 1086 00:56:56,108 --> 00:57:00,658 the shoe performs, but it is not the magical ingredient. 1087 00:57:00,659 --> 00:57:02,279 Right. It is definitely the combination 1088 00:57:02,279 --> 00:57:05,586 of all of them. And I've said this before when I 1089 00:57:05,586 --> 00:57:10,038 got to work with a company not too long ago — they were testing 1090 00:57:10,038 --> 00:57:13,217 some stuff, a very bouncy midsole and testing all these 1091 00:57:13,217 --> 00:57:16,070 different shoes. And I was like, I really thought 1092 00:57:16,070 --> 00:57:18,824 the foams were different. And then I realized — looking at 1093 00:57:18,824 --> 00:57:21,145 their faces — going, "The only thing that's changing is the 1094 00:57:21,145 --> 00:57:22,498 plate design, huh?" They're like, "Yeah." 1095 00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:26,790 And I was like — that really emphasized it — it's a very 1096 00:57:26,790 --> 00:57:29,753 complex equation of the combination of the geometry, the 1097 00:57:29,753 --> 00:57:33,043 foam, and the plate. Small changes in each one of 1098 00:57:33,043 --> 00:57:36,662 those can totally change the ride, and it will change it 1099 00:57:36,662 --> 00:57:39,532 differently for each person. So yeah, be careful. 1100 00:57:39,532 --> 00:57:43,798 And I might even argue the same thing now for foams. 1101 00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:46,944 Like, things are getting crazy enough that — yeah — foams are 1102 00:57:46,944 --> 00:57:49,558 getting kind of crazy, but that's not the only factor. 1103 00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:52,234 If you don't have that in the right geometry and the right 1104 00:57:52,234 --> 00:57:54,676 setup, it may not matter, and you may perceive it totally 1105 00:57:54,676 --> 00:57:56,158 differently. So... 1106 00:57:56,159 --> 00:57:59,547 And that doesn't even get into the role of fit — like we were 1107 00:57:59,547 --> 00:58:02,690 talking about earlier — if you go up a half size because the 1108 00:58:02,690 --> 00:58:06,731 shoe is too narrow in the toe box, well, now it might fit your 1109 00:58:06,731 --> 00:58:10,251 forefoot better, but now the forefoot rocker might not line 1110 00:58:10,251 --> 00:58:14,138 up properly with your first MTP. The design of the arch might not 1111 00:58:14,138 --> 00:58:17,693 line up with your arch anymore — which I think is the issue I 1112 00:58:17,693 --> 00:58:19,477 have in the Victory 2. Right. 1113 00:58:19,477 --> 00:58:25,162 So you could have the perfect shoe on paper for your 1114 00:58:25,162 --> 00:58:28,951 mechanics, but if it doesn't fit your foot perfectly, it doesn't 1115 00:58:28,951 --> 00:58:30,718 matter. It really doesn't matter. 1116 00:58:30,719 --> 00:58:36,191 That's very true — which again goes back to us realizing this 1117 00:58:36,191 --> 00:58:39,659 is so complex. Why are we having a billion 1118 00:58:39,659 --> 00:58:43,859 categories when — why don't we simplify this down to the major 1119 00:58:43,859 --> 00:58:48,054 themes and then can talk more about the uniqueness of the shoe 1120 00:58:48,054 --> 00:58:51,544 within the review, rather than making the category name more 1121 00:58:51,544 --> 00:58:55,139 complicated than it needs to be? Because that just eliminates the 1122 00:58:55,139 --> 00:58:57,682 point of categorization. Then it's just like — well, it's 1123 00:58:57,682 --> 00:59:01,978 almost a second name. So yeah, it makes total sense. 1124 00:59:01,980 --> 00:59:06,930 What's another example — like an interesting shoe that might make 1125 00:59:06,930 --> 00:59:10,324 this a conundrum? Oh, well — you know I'm always 1126 00:59:10,324 --> 00:59:12,658 happy to talk about the original Hyperion Max. 1127 00:59:12,659 --> 00:59:18,238 So it was a shoe that was supposed to be a maximal shoe. 1128 00:59:18,239 --> 00:59:24,464 It had "max" in its name. But it had a 32-millimeter heel, 1129 00:59:24,464 --> 00:59:30,739 24-millimeter forefoot. It was — I think my women's 9.5 1130 00:59:30,739 --> 00:59:35,998 was like 6.5 ounces. It was responsive. 1131 00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:40,898 It was moderately flexible, and I could run anything from a 1132 00:59:40,898 --> 00:59:44,458 20-mile easy run to 5K-pace intervals in it. 1133 00:59:44,460 --> 00:59:48,358 So is that a maximal daily trainer? 1134 00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,944 Absolutely not. I would put it in the 1135 00:59:51,944 --> 00:59:54,895 performance category. And honestly — and I have said 1136 00:59:54,895 --> 00:59:58,280 this many times — if that shoe existed before super shoes 1137 00:59:58,280 --> 01:00:01,964 existed, it would have been one of the best marathon racers in 1138 01:00:01,964 --> 01:00:04,198 the world. Yeah, absolutely. 1139 01:00:04,199 --> 01:00:07,330 But hopefully — yeah, I definitely agree that when you 1140 01:00:07,330 --> 01:00:10,460 really talk through a lot of this stuff, the simplification 1141 01:00:10,460 --> 01:00:12,025 of the categorization makes sense. 1142 01:00:12,025 --> 01:00:15,468 And then within the categories, there'll be subsets that we can 1143 01:00:15,468 --> 01:00:18,598 just talk about without having to make this stuff complicated. 1144 01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:22,919 Because I think that's the theme — things are getting way too 1145 01:00:22,919 --> 01:00:25,078 complicated and it's not helping consumers. 1146 01:00:25,079 --> 01:00:28,070 It's making things really confusing, and we want to try to 1147 01:00:28,070 --> 01:00:30,238 simplify this to help people make better decisions. 1148 01:00:30,239 --> 01:00:33,790 And if you're locked in decision paralysis, that's not helpful — 1149 01:00:33,790 --> 01:00:36,688 because oftentimes people in decision paralysis will end up 1150 01:00:36,688 --> 01:00:40,552 making a very poor choice based on factors that are probably not 1151 01:00:40,552 --> 01:00:42,983 relevant to them. So usually decision-making 1152 01:00:42,983 --> 01:00:45,418 starts with a step-by-step process. 1153 01:00:45,420 --> 01:00:47,940 If you can start with, "Okay, what's the general category I'm 1154 01:00:47,940 --> 01:00:49,908 looking for?" — that is going to be a good 1155 01:00:49,908 --> 01:00:52,319 place to start. Then you can work through what 1156 01:00:52,319 --> 01:00:55,428 are the subsets that you want. So that is one of the many 1157 01:00:55,428 --> 01:00:57,298 changes that you're going to see coming to the website. 1158 01:00:57,300 --> 01:01:00,420 Even before we actually debut the new website, we are already 1159 01:01:00,420 --> 01:01:01,498 doing that with our current reviews. 1160 01:01:01,500 --> 01:01:05,485 And we hope it's helpful. But I think one of the big 1161 01:01:05,485 --> 01:01:08,305 things for those listening and watching is — can you give us 1162 01:01:08,305 --> 01:01:10,185 some feedback on this? Because we're having this 1163 01:01:10,185 --> 01:01:13,462 discussion as those of us who do this a lot, trying to figure out 1164 01:01:13,462 --> 01:01:16,110 how to optimize it. Do you agree or disagree with 1165 01:01:16,110 --> 01:01:18,369 this stuff? And I'm really curious — 1166 01:01:18,369 --> 01:01:22,078 consumer, developer — feedback to go, you know, "Is this good? 1167 01:01:22,079 --> 01:01:24,390 Should we not be doing this?" Because we're going to move 1168 01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:26,831 forward with this, but we also value your feedback as people 1169 01:01:26,831 --> 01:01:28,378 who consume the stuff that we're doing. 1170 01:01:28,380 --> 01:01:32,267 We want to make sure this is relevant for you — and that's 1171 01:01:32,267 --> 01:01:35,552 part of the discussion, asking, "Hey, what's going to help best 1172 01:01:35,552 --> 01:01:37,042 for those consuming our content?" 1173 01:01:37,042 --> 01:01:40,320 Because we're not looking to be the biggest content engine out 1174 01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,523 there. We're looking to go, "How do we 1175 01:01:42,523 --> 01:01:45,507 make better and more helpful things for those of you who 1176 01:01:45,507 --> 01:01:47,638 choose to read, watch, and listen to our stuff?" 1177 01:01:47,639 --> 01:01:50,499 So yeah, hope this is helpful, and hope it's helpful to hear a 1178 01:01:50,499 --> 01:01:52,699 little bit about our thought process about why we're moving 1179 01:01:52,699 --> 01:01:56,915 in a certain direction. If you want to know more — you 1180 01:01:56,915 --> 01:02:01,085 can obviously find us in a variety of different places. 1181 01:02:01,085 --> 01:02:06,089 We release the YouTube video of this every Sunday, and then the 1182 01:02:06,089 --> 01:02:09,418 audio recording, the podcast, comes out on Wednesday. 1183 01:02:09,420 --> 01:02:11,938 And of course, again, we have stuff on YouTube. 1184 01:02:11,940 --> 01:02:13,558 We're debuting things in a bunch of different areas. 1185 01:02:13,559 --> 01:02:16,588 So we appreciate that you watch, listen, and read — and we hope 1186 01:02:16,588 --> 01:02:18,450 it's helpful. And always, if you have any 1187 01:02:18,450 --> 01:02:20,436 suggestions, let us know. We're looking to try to figure 1188 01:02:20,436 --> 01:02:22,900 out how to be better for all of you — and for ourselves — 1189 01:02:22,900 --> 01:02:24,658 because that's a really important tenet of what we do. 1190 01:02:24,659 --> 01:02:27,418 As always, thanks for listening. Thanks for watching. 1191 01:02:27,420 --> 01:02:27,659 Hope this is helpful, and we will see you next week.