1
00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,080
Hello everybody, and welcome to 
the Doctors Running podcast 

2
00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:13,640
where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

3
00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:15,800
art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

4
00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,480
feet. 
Today at the round table, we 

5
00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:20,000
have the founder of Doctors of 
Running, Doctor Matthew Klein, 

6
00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:23,120
as well as Doctor David Salas, 
and I am here as well. 

7
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:26,440
I'm Nathan Brown and we are 
excited to kick off our first 

8
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:30,600
recording of 2025 with one of 
our favorite formats, this or 

9
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:32,200
that episode. 
So we're going to talk about a 

10
00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:35,440
lot of the different shoes that 
we've been testing recently at 

11
00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,400
Doctors of Running and also some
other running related topics 

12
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:43,000
where we're going to post pose 
one idea or 1 shoe against 

13
00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:46,120
another idea or another shoe and
we're forced to pick one, which 

14
00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,240
is fun for us. 
Because if you've listened to us

15
00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:50,880
for any amount of time, you've 
probably realized that we are 

16
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,640
very nuanced in the way that we 
approach pretty much any 

17
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,600
question we don't have 
definitive, this is the best, 

18
00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,040
that's the best, this is the 
right answer, that's the right 

19
00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,640
answer. 
There's a lot of complexity even

20
00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,640
in something as silly as running
shoes. 

21
00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,720
And so we have a lot of fun 
doing these episodes because 

22
00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,920
they force us into a comfort 
zone that is a different that's 

23
00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:12,680
to something that's outside of 
our comfort zone. 

24
00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,880
So we are going to kick it off 
with a shoe related question. 

25
00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,400
These are shoes that we've been 
testing recently and it is this 

26
00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:27,080
or that, the new Clifton or the 
new Bondi from Hoka. 

27
00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,080
Oh, that's a good one. 
Yeah, I guess I can go first. 

28
00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:32,080
I got them right here next to 
me. 

29
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:35,800
What were you laughing at, Nate?
Huh. 

30
00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:37,480
Huh. 
What's so silly, huh? 

31
00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,240
Nothing. 
I got to say it now. 

32
00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:42,520
I got to say it. 
You do. 

33
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,920
Everybody. 
I, I have a confession to make. 

34
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,920
We just got done recording the 
first like almost 20 minutes of 

35
00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,720
this podcast when I realized I 
didn't have my microphone 

36
00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:54,960
connected. 
So I have just ruined 

37
00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,000
everybody's evening. 
Not any of you. 

38
00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,720
Y'all are listening whenever you
listen, but these guys and 

39
00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:02,600
myself now we're here for 
another like 20 minutes longer 

40
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,800
because I whatever someone Dave 
was like, oh, that's a good one.

41
00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,960
Crack me up inside because I'm 
like, well, we already just 

42
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,039
talked about this. 
We just finished talking about 

43
00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:13,320
this, but let's move forward. 
David, what do you, what do you 

44
00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,680
think? 
Yes, yes. 

45
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,600
I had a very, very lengthy talk 
about the heel construction of 

46
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:22,040
the Bondi, which may or may not 
be as lengthy as the second time

47
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:27,800
around. 
But yes, we have the Hoka Bondi 

48
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:32,160
9 and the Hoka Clifton 10. 
So newest versions of both 

49
00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:35,560
shoes, both neutral category. 
The flagship trainer has always 

50
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,720
been kind of the Clifton with 
the quote UN quote premium 

51
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:40,480
version of the shoes being the 
Bondi. 

52
00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,440
And I think with the newest 
version, Hoka has done a good 

53
00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:46,720
job of really differentiating 
the shoes. 

54
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,720
They've always kind of been a 
little bit similar, but they 

55
00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:52,400
really kind of made an effort to
make the Bondi genuinely more 

56
00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,160
plush than the Clifton and make 
it a quote UN quote premium 

57
00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:56,960
shoe. 
And we'll start off with the 

58
00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,600
Bondi there. 
They I don't have the specific 

59
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:02,840
specifications that I could find
from stack height. 

60
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,120
Supposedly they they added more 
stack height to the Bondi saw 

61
00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:08,480
some are 43, but on their 
website I can't find it. 

62
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,440
So we'll just ditch that. 
But they put a super critical 

63
00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,040
Eva midsole in the shoe still 
5mm drop. 

64
00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,720
And then they really, they kind 
of reconstructed the heel to be 

65
00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,040
like really structured. 
So they really want to have a 

66
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,440
stable heel and rear foot. 
And then the rest of it is all 

67
00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:26,680
pretty similar. 
Bondi experienced a lot of soul 

68
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:29,400
flaring rocker experience, 
relatively stiff, but they have 

69
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,320
some flex grooves. 
The upper they did update to 

70
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,200
make it more soft and plush as 
well, which I do think is 

71
00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,080
noticeable from previous 
versions. 

72
00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,280
So everything about it, they 
kind of tried to make a little 

73
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,840
bit more of a more plush 
experience. 

74
00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,600
Now with that said, that super 
critical Eva, yes, it is a 

75
00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,920
little bit lighter and a little 
softer than the previous bond 

76
00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:51,400
eyes, but those foams were 
already a little on the firm 

77
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,040
side to begin with. 
And I will say the Super 

78
00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:57,040
critical Eva it's softer, but 
it's not. 

79
00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,880
I still wouldn't go as far to 
say it's soft like it still 

80
00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:01,800
feels kind of like a structured 
cushioning there. 

81
00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,920
It doesn't, it's a lot of foam 
and it's very protective, but I 

82
00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:08,880
it's not like a as soft as like 
those Piba foams out there. 

83
00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,640
So if you kind of want it to be 
a little bit softer, a little 

84
00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,120
bit lighter, it's got that. 
So Hoka Clifton 10, again, it's 

85
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,320
brand new, fresh off the press. 
We don't have all of the 

86
00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:20,120
specifications for this shoot 
either. 

87
00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:21,920
I heard somewhere that they 
added a little bit of stack 

88
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,040
there as well. 
I don't have full confirmation 

89
00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:25,800
on that and I don't have 
specifications. 

90
00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:29,040
I can assume it's probably a 
similar platform for the most 

91
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,880
part, and I don't believe it has
a super critical Eva midsole. 

92
00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,320
They do feel different between 
the shoes, even just kind of 

93
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:39,040
pressing it. 
Generally heel isn't quite as 

94
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,560
built up, but there is still 
some sole flaring and still a 

95
00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,320
neutral platform. 
I'd say it's still a little bit 

96
00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:48,120
wider than more traditional 
neutral shoes are as far as like

97
00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:51,200
the cross-sectional area under 
foot, but again it's not as much

98
00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,480
as the Bondi. 
So this one still feels a little

99
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,280
bit more like a true neutral 
shoe and then just out of 

100
00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:00,520
weights because I don't have 
official specifications. 

101
00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:03,440
Well, the official listing is 
10.5 for the Bondi 9. 

102
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,440
I just don't have the official 
for the Clifton. 

103
00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:12,120
But my men's 9.5 weight, 10.6 
ounces in the Bondi 9 and 9.9 

104
00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,640
ounces in the Clifton 10. 
So the Clifton does come in a 

105
00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:21,960
little bit lighter as well. 
So all I said wait, that is why 

106
00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:23,040
that's my condensed. 
Version. 

107
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:24,520
What do you like better? 
You didn't even. 

108
00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:26,440
Which one do you like better? 
Didn't pick one since you got to

109
00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:27,680
pick one. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

110
00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:29,200
What am I going to pick? 
I'm going to pick the Clifton. 

111
00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:35,360
So Clifton, and after all of 
that, I'm going to say the 

112
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,920
Clifton. 
For me, it's mainly because of 

113
00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,320
the heel and the heel isn't bad 
on the Bondi. 

114
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,560
I just want to say that up 
front, it's just a lot. 

115
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,040
It's very structured. 
Those who like a lot of rear 

116
00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,080
foot stability and like having 
that width, it's there and I 

117
00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:52,800
think it is constructed pretty 
well. 

118
00:05:53,280 --> 00:05:56,280
I just think it's a little much 
for me personally with my 

119
00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:58,080
mechanics. 
I like that the Cliftons a 

120
00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,800
little bit lighter in weight. 
The foam does feel a little bit 

121
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,920
firmer, but there's a lot of it.
So it's still, again, it's very 

122
00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:04,960
protective, kind of a structured
cushioning feel. 

123
00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:07,840
The rocker is familiar with 
previous Cliftons. 

124
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,240
The upper is a little bit more 
snug, I think than other 

125
00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:12,560
Cliftons, but it has broken in 
pretty quickly. 

126
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,600
Yeah, it's it's a Clifton. 
It carries a lot of the Clifton 

127
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:18,480
DNA. 
I I like it, especially at the 

128
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,480
price point. 
I think it just fits my 

129
00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,720
mechanics a little bit more and 
it's kind of a nice neutral 

130
00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:24,440
trainer. 
Matt, what do you pick? 

131
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:28,640
I'm going to pick Clifton I I 
can appreciate both shoes. 

132
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,160
I can appreciate the Bondi 
moving into being. 

133
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,880
More of a Bondi A. 100% agree 
with David and I'm glad somebody

134
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,120
else said that. 
Where it still doesn't feel that

135
00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,000
soft, especially initially. 
It has broken in, but it just 

136
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:45,320
doesn't it's it's very balanced 
conshooting and it's really 

137
00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:47,040
structured. 
And I'm going to screw this name

138
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,280
up again. 
And we talked about this in the 

139
00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:49,560
previous attempt at this 
episode. 

140
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:50,840
I'm probably still going to get 
this wrong. 

141
00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:55,720
The sidewalls are so intense and
there's so much structure that 

142
00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:00,800
the Gaviota. 
Yes, Gaviota. 

143
00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,120
Wow, let's. 
Take a moment I don't understand

144
00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,160
this deserves a moment. 
This does good job. 

145
00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:08,160
Yeah, it's. 
A lot. 

146
00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,000
I, I think there's a lot of 
overlap with the Gabiota. 

147
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:16,480
So I'm hoping the Gabiota 6 has 
some sick differentiation or I 

148
00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:17,920
don't even know if they're going
to have one. 

149
00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,400
So we'll have to ask about that.
But it is very structure which 

150
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,760
walking when I first put it on, 
I was like, whoa on the run, 

151
00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:26,600
didn't feel bad, but that's 
because I need a little bit of 

152
00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,600
guidance. 
So I think that's great, but it 

153
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,800
just, it's kind of not my shoe. 
It's heavy. 

154
00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:34,320
It doesn't work well if you try 
to pick up the pace at all, 

155
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,760
whereas the Clifton 10 is that 
shoe, even though I think it 

156
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,160
gained quite a bit of weight 
compared to my last one, it has 

157
00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,680
definitely become more of that 
kind of classic daily trainer 

158
00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:46,680
for Hoka rather than what its 
previous. 

159
00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,400
The early renditions are because
Hoka has plenty of lighter, 

160
00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,160
lightweight trainers now, so I'm
glad they're differentiating 

161
00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:53,880
that. 
But it's slightly firmer. 

162
00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,880
It's a it's a teeny bit more 
snug without being too narrow 

163
00:07:57,200 --> 00:07:59,960
and it's just got that little 
bit of everything where I can 

164
00:07:59,960 --> 00:08:01,200
still pick up the pace a little 
bit. 

165
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,640
Feels comfortable. 
Heel is way more stable than the

166
00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,160
last version which is why I 
could not handle the nine. 

167
00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,680
It was just too soft and 
unstable in the rear foot. 

168
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:10,720
It really bugged me this one. 
If you like a little bit more 

169
00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,280
structure in the heel, great, 
but Clifton 10 is going to be 

170
00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:14,360
the clear winner for me. 
Nice. 

171
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:18,760
Well, I haven't gotten the Banda
yet, but I I really loved the 

172
00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:20,800
Clifton Nine. 
It was one of my like Trainers 

173
00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:25,360
of the year nominations for 
myself and I really liked that 

174
00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,240
from 8:00 to 9:00, the foam went
from kind of just a very flat 

175
00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,160
foam to having some pop in it. 
How would you all say the 

176
00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:35,360
difference is between the nine 
of the Clifton to the 10? 

177
00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,840
Like does it still have a little
bit of that pop to it or how has

178
00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,120
that been modified if at all? 
You know, and I don't know if 

179
00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,480
it's a recency thing and the 
foam needs to break in a little 

180
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,960
bit more, but I'd say the 
Clifton 10 actually feels a 

181
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,520
little bit firmer than I 
remember the Clifton 9 being. 

182
00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:54,360
And it's been a while since I 
had the Clifton 9 on my foot. 

183
00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,560
So take what I'm saying with 
some grace here, but it, it 

184
00:08:58,560 --> 00:09:01,680
feels a little bit firmer to me,
But I actually kind of liked it.

185
00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:05,920
I mean, I, I tend to like kind 
of those firmer cushioned shoes.

186
00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,800
And yeah, it just works well for
my mechanics. 

187
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,760
It's it's kind of like a firmer 
rocker, but not super dramatic 

188
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,040
either. 
I would, I would say like that 

189
00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,760
little Nathan. 
What was the the word you used? 

190
00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,120
What were you Pop? 
Yeah, I would say it doesn't 

191
00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,400
feel it's OK. 
No, it didn't feel like like a 

192
00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,320
resilience kind of thing, like 
the foam's compressing and kind 

193
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:30,920
of popping back. 
It just to me, the platform, it 

194
00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,800
feels a little bit firmer, but 
it feels a little bit more 

195
00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,080
snappy, like a little bit 
stiffer. 

196
00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,120
So when you kind of roll 
through, it's like, all right, 

197
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:41,720
this it's a different kind. 
So not as much from the midsole 

198
00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:43,880
itself, but more from the 
stiffness of the platform. 

199
00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:45,280
Cool. 
That's great. 

200
00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,720
And when now that it's 
important, I think that they're 

201
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,200
differentiating those two models
because I think that in the past

202
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,880
they've seemed very similar in a
lot of ways. 

203
00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,840
How would you or Matt? 
What do you got before I ask my 

204
00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,960
question? 
I, I would say there's a couple 

205
00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:02,240
of companies that have gone 
through this. 

206
00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,240
And so it's really 
differentiating these models as 

207
00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:06,680
key and not having to overlap. 
Like Sock and he just went 

208
00:10:06,680 --> 00:10:10,600
through this with previous 
versions of the ride and the 

209
00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,840
Triumph and it was like almost 
the same way, almost like very 

210
00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,560
similar function power. 
And plus, now they've gone to. 

211
00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,160
Cumulus and Nimbus was that too?
For sure now. 

212
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:21,240
Right. 
But before the before the Nimbus

213
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,320
25, it was like these are both 
very similar. 

214
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:26,960
So it's not just hope, I think 
there's been some of this in 

215
00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,000
recent years. 
So yes, I think it's great that 

216
00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:30,760
they really have differentiated,
but. 

217
00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,920
Cool, so my question was going 
to be then what for those who 

218
00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,280
are used to an older Bondi 
experience, what is the newest 

219
00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,840
Bondi most like comparatively? 
You know, it's a, it's a tricky 

220
00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,080
1 to answer because they 
structured that heel so much 

221
00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,240
that this shoe is like almost 
certainly like it's a stable 

222
00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:50,320
neutral shoe. 
Like there's a lot of soul flare

223
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,000
and it's very wide heel is like 
I said, it's really structured 

224
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,320
with the side walls and 
everything too. 

225
00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,560
I almost would lean towards like
the ASICS Keanu series, the the 

226
00:11:01,560 --> 00:11:04,720
recent ones, a good amount of 
silver. 

227
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:06,240
Like there's a lot of 
resemblance there. 

228
00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:10,640
You know, Keanu is obviously 
geared to be, you know, Max 

229
00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:15,640
stability, but and I I don't 
think I'd put the Bondi quite 

230
00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,880
that far on the spectrum. 
It is meant to be a neutral 

231
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,080
shoe, but because of that rear 
foot experience, that's kind of 

232
00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,120
where I'm leaning shoes along 
that area. 

233
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,560
IA 100% agree with that, that 
like we were talking about this 

234
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,520
earlier, but like would it be 
Nimbus which is a very different

235
00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,600
shoe than the softer prior. 
The Nimbus 27 is very different 

236
00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,560
than Nimbus 26 and 25 and it's 
not soft anymore, whereas the 

237
00:11:39,560 --> 00:11:42,040
Keanu is still soft. 
I will say the Bondi has a 

238
00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,560
little bit better heel bevel, 
which is kind of classic and I 

239
00:11:44,560 --> 00:11:46,200
think hopefully a six will clean
it up. 

240
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,640
But I would say the Keanu is 
less, the current version is 

241
00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:52,880
less stable than prior versions 
and it actually the Bondi and 

242
00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:54,200
those. 
That one is a really good 

243
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,000
comparison just because so much 
is coming from side walls and 

244
00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,040
geometry that I think that's 
actually similar comparison, 

245
00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,800
which is also why you see a ton 
of people out like hospitals or 

246
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,720
just in general wearing Bondi 
Keanu. 

247
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,960
I've seen a ton of people 
wearing glycerins I think. 

248
00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,000
Brooks has been, yeah. 
Brooks was picking it up so. 

249
00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,760
Also, yeah, is it Keanu or 
Kayanu? 

250
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,440
Are you asking or you telling 
me? 

251
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,080
I just want to I. 
Don't know all. 

252
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:27,240
Right. 
Let's move on to our next this 

253
00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:29,560
or that. 
So our next this or that is not 

254
00:12:29,560 --> 00:12:32,440
specific shoes, but it's talking
about shoe construction. 

255
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:37,560
This or that, a shoe built with 
a wide toe box or a shoe built 

256
00:12:37,560 --> 00:12:41,080
with a high volume toe box. 
Matt, do you want to start? 

257
00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,520
Yeah, I'm going to say a wider 
toe box just because my foot 

258
00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,520
isn't the highest volume. 
So I I width is really 

259
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,680
important, especially in that 
toe box. 

260
00:12:51,680 --> 00:12:54,160
And not like I need to all. 
I don't always need to have an 

261
00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,600
ultra Otopo style width. 
It just needs to be wider and a 

262
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,320
little bit less tapered because 
that that tapering just can give

263
00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,400
me some blisters and I've just 
been sensitive to that. 

264
00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:10,760
So with to me is more important 
personally than volume because I

265
00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,880
feel like you can have a lot of 
volume, which then in my 

266
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,400
opinion, because my feet aren't 
that high volume, really gives 

267
00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:18,240
me some trouble with locking 
down the upper. 

268
00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:20,800
Whereas if it's wide but low 
volume, it's a lot. 

269
00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,760
For me. 
It's a lot more secure and I can

270
00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:25,960
deal with some of the abrasions 
I get initially, but then I'm 

271
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,080
fine. 
What do you think, David? 

272
00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:28,600
Yeah. 
So I'm on the other end of the 

273
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,120
spectrum. 
I feel like when I look at 

274
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,120
issues that I have with shoes, 
when I do have issues, it's 

275
00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,520
usually not. 4 foot with shoes. 
Oh no. 

276
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:40,840
That should be. 
A You know, what's funny is this

277
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:42,480
is the first time you did that. 
This episode. 

278
00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,560
Last episode. 
He was doing this the entire 

279
00:13:44,560 --> 00:13:46,880
episode. 
Last episode, Yeah. 

280
00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,600
Last time we recorded the same 
episode. 

281
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:51,560
Yeah. 
Yeah, yeah. 

282
00:13:51,560 --> 00:13:58,520
The last episode. 
OK, but I usually don't have 

283
00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,400
problems with four foot width, 
you know, like I don't mind it. 

284
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:05,520
I I do like it, but usually like
if it runs a little narrow, like

285
00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,160
I'm still OK. 
But I have noticed in recent 

286
00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:10,160
history I have had a couple 
shoes where I'm like, Dang, I 

287
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,760
just wish there was a little bit
more space under there where 

288
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,840
that volume is just really snug 
and it usually breaks in. 

289
00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:19,840
But sometimes I I think having a
little bit more 4 foot volume, 

290
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,200
I've been a little bit more 
appreciative of lately. 

291
00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:25,360
Cool. 
I think I, I fall on the side 

292
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,440
with Matt here where if I had to
pick, I would say width. 

293
00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,400
I, I feel like every time we 
talk about this, I always say 

294
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,360
how volume is important. 
But when I do talk about that, 

295
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,320
I, I assume that width is part 
of that equation. 

296
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:45,520
Because for me, if, if a shoe is
lower height, but it has enough 

297
00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,080
width, I can run in it, but if 
it's too narrow, I just can't 

298
00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,440
run in it. 
It doesn't have a pleasant 

299
00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:53,160
experience. 
My feet get irritated, 

300
00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,240
especially with the foot stuff 
that I've had going on. 

301
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,160
And so for me, width is number 
one and then it doesn't need 

302
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,480
enough height to get rid of some
of the irritation on the top of 

303
00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:03,440
the foot. 
And like you said, Matt, I think

304
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,480
shoes can get sloppy. 
I think one of my favorite 

305
00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:10,680
companies in terms of how they 
handle their quote wide version 

306
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,880
is Carhoo. 
And because they do Hivo high 

307
00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,000
volume is what they call it. 
And I think that that approach 

308
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,280
is very valuable. 
And how is where I would 

309
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:25,200
actually fall because it assumes
both width and height, but with 

310
00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,440
the volume and that's what 
volume is because it's all 

311
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,600
dimensions played into one. 
But if, if we're kind of 

312
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,960
differentiating those two 
between like how high and how 

313
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,520
wide, I would go wide 1st and 
then height second. 

314
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:40,840
But let's move on to our next 
category and it is a shoe 

315
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,440
category again. 
And these are two more trainers 

316
00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,240
that we've tested, one of them 
last summer, although I just got

317
00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,400
my pair a couple weeks ago, so I
just started running in it. 

318
00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,040
And then one that's just coming 
out this year from Mizuno and 

319
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,840
it's the Mizuno Neo Zen or the 
Mizuno Neo Vista. 

320
00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:58,960
David, what you got? 
Yeah. 

321
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:05,640
So comparing these two shoes, 
I'm Neo Zen for a few reasons. 

322
00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:10,520
And so when I look at the Mizuno
Neo Zen geometry isn't too 

323
00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,040
crazy. 
You know, it's rounded, but it's

324
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,600
it's not, it's not like a crazy,
you know, Rockard experience. 

325
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,040
There's a little bit more 
flexibility because there is no 

326
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,960
plate. 
It's like if you go to bend it, 

327
00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:22,600
there's a there's a decent 
amount of stiffness there. 

328
00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,800
And you do get that balance and 
pop when you're running in it. 

329
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,520
But well, I mean, if I really 
bend it, yeah, it'll bend. 

330
00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,840
But yeah. 
But as to what I was going to 

331
00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,640
say, under load, you feel it 
bend a little bit more and so 

332
00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:36,760
you have a little bit more of a 
natural feeling toe off. 

333
00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:40,640
I think the plate and the 
geometry of the Neo Zen and how 

334
00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:44,920
soft it is, like it just doesn't
quite work with me as well. 

335
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,320
It's a Vista. 
Or not the Zen, sorry. 

336
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:50,400
Yeah, the Vista. 
The Vista, which is like some of

337
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,120
the issues I had with some 
previous shoes that were plated 

338
00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,120
soft and really rocker, you 
know, like I think of the early 

339
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:59,840
SC trainer, then a lot of people
love that shoe, right? 

340
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:01,560
But like it just wasn't the shoe
for me. 

341
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,560
I think of shoes kind of like in
that general category, whereas 

342
00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,000
the Neo Zen. 
Skyward X maybe? 

343
00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,400
Well, the skyward X was odd 
because it was still really 

344
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:18,480
stiff and like that structure 
held up, so it actually it 

345
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,000
wasn't too bad. 
I actually did OK with the 

346
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:26,720
Skyward X, but yeah, anyways, a 
little bit more natural 

347
00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,240
mechanics. 
I will say the upper though, it 

348
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,520
just moves around a little more 
than I probably would like. 

349
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:34,760
I wish that had a little bit 
more structure to it. 

350
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,200
But general experience wise, I'm
going to go Neo Zen. 

351
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,480
I think the ride is really fun 
and it's a little bit more 

352
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,480
natural for me. 
I also want to say you were on 

353
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,120
the money when you said 20 
minutes because we are coming up

354
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:48,960
on 18 here and you 2 still got 
to speak here. 

355
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,640
We go I'll go next I'll go next 
on this one. 

356
00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:58,600
So we I just got my first pair 
of neo vistas a couple weeks 

357
00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,320
ago. 
And so I'm I'm very fresh in 

358
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,320
both, which I think is fun for 
answering this question because 

359
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,160
I don't really have a recency 
bias. 

360
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:09,680
In fact, like this morning I did
half my run in the Vista, half 

361
00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,880
my run in the Zen and I think if
I had to choose today based off 

362
00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,680
of what I prefer today, I would 
pick the Vista. 

363
00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,880
I think that it's got that 
rocker platform is much more 

364
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:27,720
prominent and you run through 
that platform and I just feel 

365
00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,200
like for the types of easy 
running that I'm doing right 

366
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,880
now, it just was so smooth from 
heel to four foot. 

367
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,600
The Zen was also great like I 
honestly really enjoy both of 

368
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:40,080
them had a great run and have 
had great runs in both of them 

369
00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,360
since I've gotten them. 
Hello, a whole new world of 

370
00:18:43,360 --> 00:18:46,120
Mizuno over this last year, 
right? 

371
00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:52,120
But I think the the heel 
construction of the Vista works 

372
00:18:52,120 --> 00:18:54,800
better for me. 
It's a little bit more beveled 

373
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:57,320
and that just worked really well
with my mechanics. 

374
00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,200
I think that the softness is 
interesting because when you are

375
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,560
stepping, this is my perspective
on it. 

376
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,800
When you're stepping into the 
Zen, it feels softer, like it 

377
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,720
just feels mushy soft and it 
runs really cushioned and soft 

378
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,480
and it's nice, but not like 
unstable. 

379
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,960
When you step into the Vista, it
doesn't feel as mushy soft, but 

380
00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:20,440
then when you run, it compresses
a lot more. 

381
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,080
And so it's a they're they're 
just so different, which is also

382
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,000
cool. 
So I think that if I were going 

383
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,880
to pick a shoe for daily 
training, for high volume daily 

384
00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:30,320
training, I'd actually go with 
the Zen. 

385
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,920
But for like running experience 
purely for myself right now, 

386
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,760
that's where the Vista kind of 
won out. 

387
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,360
I agree with you, David. 
I think the the Neo Zen, the 

388
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:41,280
upper is a little bit because 
they're both a booty 

389
00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:46,120
construction upper knit kind of 
booty and the Zen is a little 

390
00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:48,840
bit sloppy and it had a couple 
wrinkles and stuff, but it 

391
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,960
wasn't irritable. 
It just, I could feel myself 

392
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,480
moving a little. 
The Neo Vista's upper was much 

393
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,560
more dialed in, but still had 
enough room. 

394
00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:57,920
So yeah, Matt, what do you 
think? 

395
00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,760
So also do you just pick both 
this or that? 

396
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:01,640
No, he. 
Picked Vista. 

397
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:03,400
He picked, Vista did. 
You just did. 

398
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,720
You just swing your way out of 
that. 

399
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:06,080
He picked Vista. 
Did you see that? 

400
00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:06,600
Vista. 
Yeah. 

401
00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:07,080
Yeah. 
Turn. 

402
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:08,800
It. 
In Oh no, I caught you. 

403
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,040
Fine, I'm going to be the one 
that hard nails toward or hard 

404
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,600
nosed toward Vista. 
So I I can appreciate where the 

405
00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:18,880
Zen is coming from, but I think 
I'm going to, I have to 

406
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,600
appreciate that from somebody 
else's perspective because the 

407
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,440
Vista works a lot better for me.
I found the Zen to actually be 

408
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:26,680
unstable where that softness 
pervaded. 

409
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,280
Really. 
It wasn't like terrible, but it 

410
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,400
was enough that like my like 
deep hip rotators like really 

411
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:36,840
got worked with the Zen. 
They don't get, I mean, they do 

412
00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,280
with the Vista, but not to the 
same degree. 

413
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:41,640
I think because of the 
resiliency of the foam, like I 

414
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:44,000
get a lot more bounce. 
And Nathan, that was a perfect 

415
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,840
way to describe it where when 
you step into the Zen, it just 

416
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:48,760
feels soft. 
When you step into the Vista, it

417
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,360
doesn't necessarily feel soft, 
but when you run it, you get 

418
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:53,840
this really big bounce and 
you're like, whoa. 

419
00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,280
So because of that and the 
better heel construction and a 

420
00:20:57,280 --> 00:21:01,000
little better lockdown of the 
Vista, I still like the Vista 

421
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,560
better. 
It's also a shoe that I, again, 

422
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:06,280
I really like something that can
handle a lot of different 

423
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,960
things. 
I had a little trouble I think 

424
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,080
because of the soft getting the 
Zen to really want to go fast. 

425
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:14,840
It can, but it's not what it's 
really meant for. 

426
00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,800
The Vista can if you want it to 
can move. 

427
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:25,240
I've got a 458 stroller mile in 
the Vista so didn't intend for 

428
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:28,360
that to happen but it did so. 
It's funny, David, what's your 

429
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:30,400
perspective on which one feels 
more stable? 

430
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,520
Because I my perspective. 
Oh, no, you go first. 

431
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,000
What's what's your perspective 
on which one's more stable? 

432
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,520
I just want to say client's the 
only person on the planet I know

433
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,840
that'll be like I don't know if 
I could break 5 in the mile. 

434
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,280
Hey guys I just ran a 458 
stroller mile. 

435
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,280
In a trainer in a. 
Trainer, yeah, I mean that she 

436
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:47,960
was pretty bouncy. 
I mean, like I did a lot of 

437
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,880
workouts in it. 
That's why I really appreciate 

438
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,920
it so much. 
And then I was so surprised to 

439
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,800
be like, this is not a Piba foam
like what is going on here so. 

440
00:21:57,120 --> 00:22:00,680
You know, it's been a while 
since I've run in the Vista. 

441
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,320
What was the original? 
Just the stability comparison in

442
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:08,200
which because Matt picked the 
Zen as more unstable. 

443
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,960
It probably is for. 
Himself. 

444
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,320
It probably is, yeah. 
I mean the plate and the width 

445
00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:15,720
and everything like at the Vista
probably is a little bit more 

446
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,560
stable. 
Neither one are. 

447
00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,320
Stable today, but I think. 
The thing for me though, that 

448
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,160
makes the instability more 
noticeable in the Zen is like I 

449
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,480
said, the upper. 
I don't think the platform like 

450
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,800
if the upper had more of a 
better construction, I don't 

451
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:34,880
know if that answer would be 
exactly the same because of how 

452
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,040
much it compresses and you can't
actually feel the ground with 

453
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,960
how much it compresses and 
traction isn't too bad. 

454
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,640
Like and like you get that 
natural kind of feeling toe off 

455
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,480
like like it feels like you. 
It shouldn't be that unstable, 

456
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,960
but I think my foot was just 
moving around a little bit more 

457
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:54,760
in the Zen, which makes that 
more unstable inherently. 

458
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,760
My issue stability wise, I 
actually didn't have an issue 

459
00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:01,040
with either stability wise when 
I, but when I compare them, my 

460
00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:06,000
issue for the Vista is that they
have that huge divide between 

461
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,800
the middle that goes all the way
up to the plate. 

462
00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:12,400
And so anytime I was turning the
compression amount on one versus

463
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,880
the other, it kind of like 
pitched you one way or the other

464
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,360
if you were cornering. 
So I think that combined with 

465
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,440
it's kind of a very full length 
rocker, that front to back 

466
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,880
stability I think is more 
prevalent and then that huge 

467
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,840
divide in the amounts of that 
kind of one pillar versus the 

468
00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:30,840
other. 
I felt like it was less stable 

469
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,960
because of that. 
But I don't know that that was 

470
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,280
just my perspective on on 
running today where because the 

471
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,760
Zen is connected all the way 
through, even though there's no 

472
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,160
plate, I felt like I wasn't 
being pitched one way or the 

473
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:44,640
other. 
Whereas if you are someone who 

474
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:49,480
maybe lands way on the outside, 
maybe you'd feel kind of being 

475
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:50,720
pitched laterally or 
immediately. 

476
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,120
But that was my perspective on 
it. 

477
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:53,360
Should we move on to our next 
one? 

478
00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:57,400
All right, we are going with 
another shoe question and we're 

479
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:00,120
going to keep it with Mizuno 
while we're here. 

480
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:06,560
So it's about a racing shoe. 
Would you pick the Rebellion Pro

481
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,800
2 or the Rebellion Pro 3? 
David, go for his. 

482
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:11,520
Yeah, I'm going to pick the 
Rebellion Pro 1. 

483
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:19,200
Fine, go for it. 
Why? 

484
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:25,080
Between the two of Pro and three
and two, I would go 3 just so 

485
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,400
that that's out there. 
I feel like it's just a little 

486
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,680
bit more stable. 
The two was on the unstable end,

487
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,080
and although cornering isn't 
great in the Pro 3, I felt like 

488
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,760
that upper did hold you onto the
platform better. 

489
00:24:38,120 --> 00:24:40,840
And I felt like I trusted my 
footing a little bit more in the

490
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,480
Pro 3 than I did in the Pro 2. 
With that said, the pro 1, the 

491
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,000
geometry on that heel wasn't 
quite as dramatic as these other

492
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,800
ones. 
Traction was just as good, very 

493
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,280
grippy rocker profile was solid.
Like I felt like it just worked 

494
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:56,880
for my mechanics a little bit 
more. 

495
00:24:57,360 --> 00:25:01,360
This like hyper geometry just 
feels a little excessive to me 

496
00:25:01,360 --> 00:25:04,480
in the heel there. 
And it almost feels a little bit

497
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:08,920
jarring, like where when I get 
tired and I kind of I do tend to

498
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,600
over stride a little bit as I 
get tired and I start to kind of

499
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:12,920
kick that leg out a little bit 
more. 

500
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,960
And then I start noticing it. 
You know, for the most part, if 

501
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,840
I'm controlled, I'm good. 
I'm running a nice marathon 

502
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,520
pace. 
This shoes really nice and 

503
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,480
really fluid, but I feel like it
starts to fight me a little bit,

504
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:27,240
whereas the first version didn't
fight me as much as the second 

505
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:31,320
or the third version. 
And so for that reason, it's 

506
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,320
Rebellion Pro 1 for me. 
But that's not knocking anything

507
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,640
about the shoe. 
I think the materials are good. 

508
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,600
I think it's responsive. 
It's again, if I'm under 

509
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,840
control, the shoe is really nice
as long as I don't take any 

510
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:45,520
sharp turns or anything like 
something like that. 

511
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,720
But oh, I will say too, the 
second version, I had a really 

512
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,440
hard time with cambered roads. 
I remember that very 

513
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,480
distinctively. 
And this one, I felt like it was

514
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,840
a little bit better. 
And I think that might just be 

515
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,240
because it locked down a little 
more because there's like a road

516
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,840
I can think of very specifically
here that I had an issue with. 

517
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,240
And I've run that same Rd. in 
both shoes. 

518
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:11,240
And yeah, this one, definitely 
this one being the Pro 3 for the

519
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,840
listeners, felt like it held up 
a little bit more. 

520
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,280
So if that was like the only 
deal breaker for you on the Pro 

521
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,760
2, I do think the Pro 3 does 
that a little bit better. 

522
00:26:19,360 --> 00:26:22,400
So I answered your question 
there for both of the answers. 

523
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:24,680
That's great. 
Matt. 

524
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,520
What's your pick? 
I don't know, to be honest, a 

525
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,480
little bit thinking about this 
question, so I'm going to I'll 

526
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,280
come to an answer. 
I'm having the same issue that 

527
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,040
David is. 
So I'm I'm going to pick the 

528
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,280
rebellion Pro 3 with some 
caveats and go. 

529
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,880
I can appreciate it. 
It doesn't for whatever reason 

530
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,200
feel as tall as as I was 
expecting it to and I think 

531
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,440
that's because of how much the 
midsole is compressing. 

532
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:52,280
I feel like even though this is 
listed as a 4mm drop shoe, it 

533
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:56,720
feels like a 11:50 like for the 
first time and I don't know why,

534
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,440
but it feels like until I'm 
running and I'm actually 

535
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,600
compressed in the sole, it feels
like my heel is really elevated 

536
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,920
in the shoe. 
And then as soon as my mechanics

537
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,760
breakdown I start to get like a 
little bit of that Patella 

538
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,440
femoral, like I'm wearing a 
higher heel drop shoe and I'm 

539
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,120
just not used to it right now. 
It's like the exact same 

540
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:18,880
sensation. 
So when I got this under control

541
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:21,840
it's great. 
And for me it feels better at 

542
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,120
longer distance efforts. 
I just struggle once I get past 

543
00:27:25,120 --> 00:27:27,720
a certain distance to keep that 
control. 

544
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,440
However, that's better than what
I felt like the rebellion Pro 2 

545
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,440
was, which I other than, you 
know, I should have asked for 

546
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:37,200
1/2 size up. 
It was great. 

547
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,320
It was really bouncy, but I had 
a different issue when then I 

548
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:44,000
started to get fatigue. 
That shoe felt like A0A negative

549
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,920
drop shoe like the foam 
compressed so much and when I 

550
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,160
hit that heel, it wasn't as 
jarring as this can be, but it 

551
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,800
just like I just went into 
position going like I don't 

552
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,120
think I can take this super 
long. 

553
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,320
It was it's definitely like that
shorter, which is weird to say 

554
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:03,480
like that shorter distance 
faster shoe that I that yeah, 

555
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,640
that I just needed the right the
right size and version 3 feels 

556
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,120
like more of the true marathon 
type shoe if you got good 

557
00:28:10,120 --> 00:28:12,240
control. 
So I am very curious to try the 

558
00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:13,960
rebellion pro. 
Is it low? 

559
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,720
They're calling it where they're
not having this crazy geometry 

560
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:19,280
like. 
I hope they send us that that 

561
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:20,920
because I'm. 
Very curious. 

562
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,120
I'm very curious that I don't 
know if that's coming to the US,

563
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:25,880
but I'm very curious about that.
But I'm is. 

564
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,360
That a Tre thing? 
Where did you see that? 

565
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:30,800
Tre in the couple places on like
Reddit and things like. 

566
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,240
That like. 
Because I'm always looking for 

567
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,960
shoes. 
Dark web for like shoes content 

568
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,720
client on. 
It I will find. 

569
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,320
He is the dark web, yeah. 
These poor guys, like the whole 

570
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,640
team will get this. 
I'll find some random prototype 

571
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,240
on an eBay and I'm like, look 
what I found. 

572
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,080
We should, I should buy this 
Nathan's like, please don't 

573
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,280
like, don't do that. 
Found like full on catalogs and 

574
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,880
other languages. 
Yeah, and. 

575
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,440
How did you get that translated 
that? 

576
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,800
Yeah, yeah, you. 
Could read that all. 

577
00:28:59,920 --> 00:29:01,800
Right. 
This is before we even like had 

578
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:03,520
as many companies we worked with
as we did. 

579
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,800
He'd be like, oh, hey, do you 
see this thing from some company

580
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,000
you've never heard of? 
Yeah, here it is. 

581
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:07,920
So. 
Rebellion Pro 3. 

582
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:09,480
Hilarious. 
Great. 

583
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,560
So before we go to our next this
or that, we also just want to 

584
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,440
thank Scratch for their 
partnership in powering this 

585
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,080
podcast. 
It's been fun working with them 

586
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,440
and we're continuing to do so in
2025. 

587
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,400
As of now, the code that we 
still have is Dor 24. 

588
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,760
So if you have not used that 
code yet, you can get 20% off 

589
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,080
your first order with Scratch 
and they've got some good stuff 

590
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,080
for in run fuel. 
All right, we're going to move 

591
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:41,200
on to our next one, which is a 
little bit of a softball, I 

592
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,520
think, or we'll see. 
But it's for socks. 

593
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,320
Would you rather have no show 
socks or crew socks for running?

594
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,280
Crew socks. 
What kind of? 

595
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,560
Shoes. 
Easy. 

596
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,520
I always race in crew socks, you
know that. 

597
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,920
I'm I'm crew socks too easy. 
It's a. 

598
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,160
It's a no. 
Brainer for me it's also because

599
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,640
some of these shoes come out 
with higher ankle things and I 

600
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,440
don't really like having rubbing
Like 1000% crew socks easy. 

601
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,960
I got a drawer plus. 
Plus the style he's getting his 

602
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,920
crew socks. 
Matt, what's your? 

603
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:11,800
Crew socks, Matt, do you? 
Crew socks. 

604
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,320
OK so for many years I like the 
no show, just it made me feel 

605
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,680
fast for whatever reason. 
I don't like a bunch of things 

606
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,360
touching my ankle. 
I'm really sensitive. 

607
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Recent years it's had to 
transition to crew because I'm 

608
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,760
tired of my Achilles getting 
like ripped up by all these 

609
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,360
shoes that either have the 
really tall, like heel tab and 

610
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,000
all this stuff. 
So recently it's been like it's 

611
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,000
been crew socks out of 
necessity. 

612
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:41,560
Also because down in the 
Northwest and freezing my rear 

613
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:44,160
off up here, I need like skin 
coverage over every part of my 

614
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,000
body. 
Don't make fun of me, Nathan. 

615
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,680
I know it's not your version of 
cold, but I'm freezing. 

616
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,720
No, no, here's my thing. 
I thought it didn't. 

617
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,800
Also it's raining. 
That's, I mean, yeah, that's AI 

618
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:55,360
thought. 
You were. 

619
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,640
Mr. Sockless Yes. 
I mean, yeah, when when I need 

620
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,680
to, yes. 
But right now, no, not this. 

621
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,440
Temperature is my feet. 
I've got some bad chafing. 

622
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,040
I haven't told you all that. 
I've like doing some of the 

623
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,840
sockless testing. 
Just got my feet ripped up 

624
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,720
running sockless. 
In the rain, mandatory part of 

625
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:14,840
testing I. 
Always we do not have that in 

626
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,160
our protocol. 
No, but it's not. 

627
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:20,760
Part of it is if you look on our
template, it actually on the 

628
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,320
upper. 
Yeah, I put it there so. 

629
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,640
Yeah, you, you self-imposed. 
This. 

630
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,680
If it's like me reviewing it, 
it's like sockless, not tested. 

631
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,840
So good, so great. 
Well, I'm glad we agree. 

632
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,760
It's definitely crew. 
Crew's the answer. 

633
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:41,520
And plus you could have all the 
science you can have like all 

634
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,040
kinds of fun stuff on crew 
socks. 

635
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:44,600
Isn't this like a man? 
I just need to is. 

636
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,040
This like a big like millennial 
versus like Gen. 

637
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,880
Z is like the whole new trend is
like crew socks and like 

638
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,320
everybody like the previous 
generations are or like no show.

639
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,480
Is that a thing? 
I think that there's some, I 

640
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,800
think there's something there, 
but I'm not in that category. 

641
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,440
So I'm not in the like, I'm not 
in that debate. 

642
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,240
But then if we're all 
millennials, like. 

643
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,040
We bucked. 
We bucked the trend. 

644
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,640
So then, David, are you a? 
Millennial. 

645
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,760
I am. 
Would you say the Gen. 

646
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:16,440
Z would be no show then Or are 
you saying millennial no? 

647
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:21,000
We're supposed millennials are 
supposed to be no show, I think.

648
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:27,480
But and then. 
I just need to say one thing. 

649
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Outer fun socks, right? 
Like I feel like that's usually 

650
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:32,760
the thing. 
Yeah, I'm going to say one thing

651
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,480
about weather and then we're 
going to move forward. 

652
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,040
I am not in the, I'm not in 
camp. 

653
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:40,840
Oh, that's it's only 25°. 
That's not cold at all. 

654
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,200
Because if you live in 
California or Texas or Florida 

655
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,960
and it gets 25°, you are in no 
way ready for that temperature. 

656
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,040
So I just know it's freezing. 
It's all relative like cold is 

657
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,120
there's, there's a threshold 
where like the cold here becomes

658
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,360
dangerous cold like when it's 
-20 like that's a different 

659
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,280
story. 
But I'm saying from like a going

660
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,760
outside and feeling cold. 
When I lived in Delaware, the 

661
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,360
coldest it would get would let 
be like 18 and we would be like,

662
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,320
this is so cold. 
Even though that we were 

663
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,760
Wisconsinites by that point when
we were there for a couple 

664
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,920
years, we got used to it. 
So I no shame for it feeling 

665
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,880
cold in the mid 30s or 20s or 
whatever it is. 

666
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:19,600
Alt power to you. 
Worse like that makes sense. 

667
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,560
I'm still gonna get shamed in 
the YouTube comments. 

668
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,480
Though I think. 
When you get humid is not. 

669
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:26,480
Yeah, yeah. 
That's like that bone showing 

670
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:27,760
kind of feeling. 
Yeah. 

671
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:29,640
That's not fun. 
I think that's what's happening.

672
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,200
That's more my defense because 
that can actually happen here, 

673
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,520
but. 
And that so I just, I just so 

674
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,160
one of the modules I have to 
teach is on the modalities for a

675
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:40,280
course that I have in the 
spring. 

676
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,680
So I just talked about like 
therapeutic heat and cold. 

677
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:46,080
And the it's because of the 
specific heat of water that 

678
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,360
leads to increased amounts of 
like heating or like heat 

679
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,120
transfer. 
And so when you have a lot of 

680
00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,760
like water in the air, you have 
more heat transfer from your 

681
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,680
body into the air because the 
specific, the specific heat of 

682
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,000
water is higher. 
So it makes sense. 

683
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,800
It's science. 
Science says so. 

684
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:01,680
All right, let's move to our 
next one. 

685
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,360
We're going back to a shoe 
question. 

686
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,040
The next is two different sock. 
Any shoes you have to pick 

687
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:11,320
either the Saucony Endorphin 
Speed or the Saucony Endorphin 

688
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,440
Trainer Speed. 
Trainer. 

689
00:34:13,639 --> 00:34:16,520
Matt, whoa. 
I actually didn't expect. 

690
00:34:17,159 --> 00:34:19,120
My my reasoning is not very 
good. 

691
00:34:19,159 --> 00:34:20,360
Go for it. 
I don't have the trainer. 

692
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,320
Me neither. 
Why do we put this one on here? 

693
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:31,679
That's all right, Matt. 
That's amazing. 

694
00:34:31,679 --> 00:34:32,880
Matt. 
What? 

695
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:35,800
What's why? 
What's your pick? 

696
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,159
Why? 
Why is it trainer? 

697
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:46,360
This might change with the Speed
5, but I feel like they are very

698
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,840
different shoes and for me 
personally, there's a lot of I I

699
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,000
really like the speed four. 
I thought it was great. 

700
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,920
It was a really fun shoe that 
you. 

701
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,440
Gave an award. 
Yeah, it was a fast shoe that I 

702
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,120
felt like it. 
It really is a lightweight shoe 

703
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,840
that can very easily be a racing
shoe for people that don't do 

704
00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:05,800
well with really stiff carbon 
plated shoes. 

705
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,520
It was great, held up really, 
really well, did a ton of 

706
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,680
workouts, ton long runs. 
The only challenge I had with it

707
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,480
is that it is kind of in that 
super shoe vein where I liked 

708
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,200
running in it. 
I didn't like running in it all 

709
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,480
the time even though I did that.
Whereas the trainer to me feels 

710
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:28,760
more like that trainer where 
it's it can do easy runs well. 

711
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,440
It took a second for that heel 
to break in it. 

712
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:33,600
It does do long runs really 
well. 

713
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,360
It is it is more stable, at 
least medially, just because of 

714
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,840
the way the medial mid foot's 
filled in a little bit more and 

715
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:41,640
almost feels like it's slightly 
wet. 

716
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,720
We're like the medial side like 
the side walls and whatever just

717
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:47,520
feel like they come up a little 
higher than the lateral side. 

718
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,520
So it works really well for me 
and the new credit run foam is 

719
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,880
awesome Like I've done every 
kind of workout in the shoe. 

720
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:55,560
Would it be a shoe I chose to 
race in? 

721
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,920
No, but if I'm like I don't know
if I'm going to do an easy run 

722
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,640
or workout. 
It is the shoe on my feet. 

723
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,040
It's been it's been really 
great. 

724
00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:07,080
Durability isn't the best. 
I would say the speed wins on 

725
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,960
durability. 
The but it is better now. 

726
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,520
I have 100 miles on this pair 
and this is the left one in. 

727
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,760
The outsole is still intact 
other than that. 

728
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,040
That looks pretty good to me 
that. 

729
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,720
Looks really good, yeah. 
I mean, that lateral forefoot's 

730
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:23,320
getting chewed through a little 
bit, but they know me and so the

731
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:25,680
fact that this is still intact 
is good. 

732
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:27,720
So they probably. 
Felt that out, so just for you. 

733
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:29,560
Yeah, now. 
You got to tell. 

734
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,560
You got to tell me because I 
feel like, you know, you really 

735
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,040
loved the speed. 
I also, as someone who hasn't 

736
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:42,800
touched or ran in the shoe, see 
the Endorphin Trainer as the 

737
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:48,120
successor to the Kinvara Pro, 
which was a miss for a lot of 

738
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:49,760
people. 
I enjoyed running in it, but 

739
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,480
what are the differences there 
and how did it vault kind of 

740
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:55,120
over the speed for you? 
Like what? 

741
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:58,560
How is it different? 
From the the pro I had a lot of 

742
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,920
hope for and then just kind of 
fell flat, like durability wise 

743
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,640
didn't have the bounce I was 
hoping for. 

744
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:08,040
Whereas the trainer really, 
because of the Incredi run 

745
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:12,800
really has that bounce, but it's
really well balanced by the 

746
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:16,480
bottom layer of the power run. 
I would do wish they would 

747
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,040
update that to Power and plus 
somebody said that on YouTube 

748
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,520
and I can't remember who said 
that and whoever said it gets 

749
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,040
credit for that. 
But I think that would be nice. 

750
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,760
But I think it's more to, for 
me, more versatile in what I 

751
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,160
want. 
When I spend too much time in 

752
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,000
true super shoes, things tend to
get a little bit wonky, 

753
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,880
especially my hips and ankles. 
That's not happening in the 

754
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:38,480
trainer and that's what I want 
for a shoe that can handle a 

755
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,280
majority of my mileage. 
So I think the speed is the 

756
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,760
better option for you going. 
Yeah, I want like a racing shoe 

757
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,280
that I can also train in the 
trainers. 

758
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,560
The like, hey, I want a training
shoe that if I thought about it 

759
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,720
maybe for long distance I could 
I could race in. 

760
00:37:52,720 --> 00:37:56,840
But it is the trainer and that's
why I like it, just because it 

761
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,120
can do more. 
Nice. 

762
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,120
All right. 
We're going to move on to our 

763
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:04,920
next one and this is a an 
exercise based this or that. 

764
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:09,600
So you need to choose one of 
these, this or that, plyometrics

765
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,040
or heavyweight lifting. 
That's a tough one. 

766
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,320
Strictly in terms of 
performance, longevity, we we're

767
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,240
just just picking one. 
Yes, just picking one. 

768
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,960
Just defend it. 
Just because my world is 

769
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,360
performance, I'm going to go 
plyometrics. 

770
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,600
Working elasticity, you know, 
quick ground contact, being able

771
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,640
to pop off of it, running 
economy, all of those things. 

772
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,000
I'm going to go plyometrics. 
Now. 

773
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,640
That's only if I'm forced to 
pick one that's for the 

774
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,440
competitive group. 
I think if I'm looking for 

775
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:47,720
longevity and having a resilient
body and being able to do the 

776
00:38:47,720 --> 00:38:49,720
sport for probably a longer 
period of time, like you could 

777
00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:53,800
argue both, obviously, but I 
would probably learn more 

778
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:57,400
strength training and having 
just a more capable body to just

779
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,840
endure running. 
But for the people that are 

780
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,360
trying to go really fast, 
they're, I think people that are

781
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:04,960
going really fast. 
They're doing both, you know, I,

782
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,680
I, but it's like, but I'd say 
plyos probably, and I would even

783
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,880
include plyos, not just in terms
of the traditional, you know, 

784
00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:17,880
whether you're doing depth jumps
or split jumps or drills, 

785
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,080
strides. 
Like like I would argue 

786
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,960
sprinting is a plyometric doing 
a hard, quick Sprint. 

787
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,560
Like you are loading very 
quickly, popping off of it and 

788
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,560
it's for no longer than maybe 10
seconds. 

789
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,480
You know, we're not talking like
a stride, we're talking a 

790
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,360
Sprint. 
And being able to turn over 

791
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,080
power and use your body I think 
can pay dividends when you're 

792
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,760
talking the performance realm of
things. 

793
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,400
So that is, that's my argument 
for plyometrics. 

794
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,520
But you can make an equally a 
strong argument for strength 

795
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,080
training. 
And I obviously, if you can tell

796
00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,480
in the tone of my voice, I like 
both. 

797
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,640
I don't think I'm being forced 
into a wall here. 

798
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,320
Continue with being forced into 
the wall. 

799
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,240
I think when I really think 
about this holistically, I think

800
00:40:05,240 --> 00:40:08,520
of a spectrum of loading and 
different purposes for different

801
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,080
types of loading. 
I think that some exercises 

802
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:14,680
prepare you for other types of 
exercises, but I think if I had 

803
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,680
to pick between the two, which 
reality is we don't have to pick

804
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,360
between the two, but if we had 
to, I would also click pick 

805
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,840
plyometrics. 
I think that some of the ones 

806
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:28,200
that, and especially for myself,
and and that's for a couple 

807
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,200
reasons. 
One is because to get the 

808
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,480
benefit out of plyometrics, it 
takes a lot of a very little 

809
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:36,520
amount of time. 
You do not need a high amount of

810
00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,280
dosage of plyometrics to get the
benefits that come along with 

811
00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,720
them. 
So they're easy to access. 

812
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,480
Plus you can just do them from a
couch or whatever, whatever 

813
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,360
you've got, you know. 
And then I think the another 

814
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,080
reason is because of the 
assistance with bone health and 

815
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,240
so having plyometrics and part 
of that loading. 

816
00:40:54,240 --> 00:40:58,320
And then the third one is 
because running is a series of, 

817
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,280
you know, hopping on one foot 
over and over and over or back 

818
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,320
and forth on your on your feet. 
The way that our tendons are 

819
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:10,720
loaded are through kind of 
elastic kind of recoil of 

820
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,840
something like the Achilles and 
there's almost like an isometric

821
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,560
contraction of our muscles and 
that's not replicated and heavy 

822
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:20,240
lifting, but it is in care or 
can be with some of the 

823
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:22,720
plyometric work. 
So I think that there's a lot 

824
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:24,600
that is beneficial about 
plyometrics. 

825
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,960
If I had to pick 1 though, I 
think or we know that the amount

826
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:31,560
of loading on tissue on your 
tissues like your tendons is 

827
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,040
very high with plyometrics. 
So if you don't have the the 

828
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,120
resolve within those tissues to 
handle it, you're actually going

829
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,240
to just potentially cause an 
injury. 

830
00:41:41,240 --> 00:41:44,160
So I don't think you can only 
choose one. 

831
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:47,000
I think you need to prepare your
body for these different types 

832
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,800
of things. 
But if I had to, I would say 

833
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:50,240
plyometric. 
Matt, what about you? 

834
00:41:50,240 --> 00:41:52,920
So I'm going to give an 
interesting take on this. 

835
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:56,520
I'm going to agree with you too.
However, to really get the 

836
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:59,240
benefit out of plyometrics and 
power work, you have to be 

837
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:02,760
working pretty hard. 
And that takes some experience 

838
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,000
to actually know how to do those
correctly. 

839
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,720
That plyometrics are not 
something that someone with no 

840
00:42:07,720 --> 00:42:09,520
jump. 
Like there's a progression that 

841
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,280
you got to work through to be 
able to go, hey, can I actually 

842
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,400
get like to really do these? 
Well, so that you're truly 

843
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:17,320
maxing out at the amount that 
you need to. 

844
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,720
Like when Nate's talking about 
like, yeah, you shouldn't be 

845
00:42:19,720 --> 00:42:22,320
doing a ton of these, that's 
when you're really maxing out to

846
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,520
teach people how to do that 
takes a little bit. 

847
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,600
So for the untrained individual,
it's early on. 

848
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,800
I would actually suggest 
heavyweight training because I 

849
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,600
think it's a little bit safer 
because it's a little bit 

850
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,440
slower. 
However, plyometrics are going 

851
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,520
to have the greatest benefit, 
not just from a performance 

852
00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,760
perspective, but also from an 
age perspective. 

853
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,000
That's what my research was on. 
It was looking at masters 

854
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:45,080
runners. 
And here's a couple things. 

855
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,920
We lose, we lose muscle mass as 
we age, unless you work on it, 

856
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:53,720
we lose more strength than we 
lose muscle mass and we lose 

857
00:42:53,720 --> 00:42:55,480
more power than we lose 
strength. 

858
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:57,640
So power is the thing that we 
lose the most. 

859
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:01,560
It's also the greatest predictor
of fall risk. 

860
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,960
As you get older, strength 
somewhat, but power is the 

861
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,920
greatest, greatest predictor of 
a lot of health factors, even 

862
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,920
more so than strength, because 
you need to be able to react, 

863
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,400
need to be able to get up. 
So for like when I'm working 

864
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,880
with a lot of older individuals 
and not just runners, if I can 

865
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,320
get to the jump, there's amazing
benefits. 

866
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:22,000
There's great things that 
happen. 

867
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,880
You do get hypertrophy, you do 
get lots of nervous system 

868
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,440
stimulation. 
But if that person isn't safe to

869
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,400
be doing that, I'm going to be 
doing weight training. 

870
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,760
But optimally you should do 
both. 

871
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,880
Plyometrics have the biggest 
bang for your buck, but you need

872
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:38,640
to be safe but also very 
specific with how you do those. 

873
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,400
I would also argue though, heavy
strength training is not 

874
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:48,240
necessarily safe in nature 
either where you are doing heavy

875
00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:50,200
strength training, right? 
So if you're taking someone 

876
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:53,200
who's a novice to this and let's
say you're not just going to 

877
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:58,240
toss them into a 5 by 5 strength
set, you know, like a genuine 5 

878
00:43:58,240 --> 00:43:59,800
by 5. 
Yeah, exactly. 

879
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:04,080
Like that's a lot of load to 
lift for anyone, experienced or 

880
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,040
not. 
And so I would say you would 

881
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,320
want some experience for both, 
you know? 

882
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,880
That's totally fair, but would 
you rather have an untrained 

883
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:17,240
person do like A5 by attempt to 
5 by 5 or do 5 by 5 depth jumps?

884
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:18,560
What doesn't that be depth 
jumps? 

885
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:20,200
No, I'm just I'm just saying 
because it. 

886
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,200
Could be like a seated position 
to a jump. 

887
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,440
But that's not a. 
That's a, that's not a plow 

888
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:27,040
magic. 
That's not a plow. 

889
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:29,640
You're exploding off the ground.
You're getting off the ground. 

890
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:31,640
How is that not a playoff? 
That's a ballistic movement, a 

891
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,760
plyometric, because you actually
have to use the stretch 

892
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:38,120
shortening cycle. 
All right, you have to load 

893
00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,760
power you guys over generate 
power, Yeah, but it's a stretch 

894
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:42,720
shortening cycle. 
But. 

895
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,080
The stretch shortening cycle has
to be enough that you elicit 

896
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:50,080
that reflex power is great, like
power exists, are awesome, and 

897
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,880
those are much safer. 
However, you are not going to 

898
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,280
get the same economy benefits 
from doing power stuff as you 

899
00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,720
are doing plyometrics. 
That's different. 

900
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,400
If we were just going to do 
power versus heavy strength, 

901
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:03,720
I've actually might have a 
different answer. 

902
00:45:03,720 --> 00:45:07,680
But a true plyometric, if you're
really using the stretch 

903
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,520
shortening cycle, then yes, but 
that's also it's also high, it's

904
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,800
a high risk too there's. 
A. 

905
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,200
That's a quality of plyometric 
issue. 

906
00:45:18,720 --> 00:45:20,880
What do you mean? 
Because I would argue you're 

907
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,520
still using the stretch 
shortening cycle. 

908
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,680
You're not getting up, stopping 
and going. 

909
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,160
You are getting forward momentum
like your glutes are going into 

910
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,240
an eccentric moment where they 
have to snap and extent. 

911
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:32,080
That is a stretch shortening 
cycle. 

912
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:35,800
It's not as hard on the Cavs as 
like some of the other stuff, 

913
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,160
but that is still a stretch 
shortening cycle. 

914
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,800
But the intensity of it is not 
as large as it would be with 

915
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,000
other movements. 
Yeah. 

916
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,800
So you can have like a power, 
like a power movement where you 

917
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,600
don't move as fast, but actually
to get the real stretch 

918
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,880
shortening reflex, which I can't
believe that I'm forgetting the 

919
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,000
name of that instant. 
What is what's that called? 

920
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:01,920
Like a it's evoked. 
It's evoked by that because. 

921
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,280
It's shortening reflex, yeah. 
Yeah, it's that's it's. 

922
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:06,080
Yeah. 
There's a name for this, the. 

923
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,040
What's that phase called? 
The amortization. 

924
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:11,920
Yeah. 
So the amortization phase for it

925
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,960
to be a true plyometric has to 
be very short. 

926
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:17,640
Like if you're doing 
plyometrics, if you jump and 

927
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,120
land and stop, that's not a 
plyometric anymore. 

928
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,120
It's got to be on and quickly 
off to actually be able to 

929
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,080
utilize that or it's just a 
power exercise. 

930
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:33,480
I hear the argument right so. 
I, I hear you and, and doing 

931
00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:36,320
that stuff like a chair, being 
able to jump off that is, is 

932
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,160
really important and that's 
where you need to start. 

933
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:42,240
And I, I think a lot of people 
might, that might be where they 

934
00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:47,120
Max out because to do a true 
plyo can be really difficult and

935
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:48,640
there's a very high risk to 
that. 

936
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:50,560
There's high risk reward, but 
it's a very high risk. 

937
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,720
But they. 
My favorite, My favorite initial

938
00:46:55,720 --> 00:47:00,000
plyometric is to hook, Oh, my 
super bands are too far away, 

939
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:04,440
but hooking super bands up high 
and then holding them and doing 

940
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,880
jumping from the ground with 
those, that's great. 

941
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,760
And that I think that's a really
nice way because it can, it can 

942
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,720
offload a ton of your body 
weight to get used to that idea 

943
00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,200
of what's it look like to 
rebound off the ground quickly. 

944
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,760
It's a good one. 
But I think what I'm hearing in 

945
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:22,000
this conversation, what I'm 
hearing though, I think this 

946
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,760
would be people. 
Could tell us to be a plyo. 

947
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,760
I'm joking. 
I think we. 

948
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,080
Should have a longer. 
Quick, somebody. 

949
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,200
Should have a. 
Somebody correct me if I'm 

950
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,040
wrong, but that was my 
understanding of like the 

951
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:39,280
difference between a power. 
Like playometrics are a form of 

952
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,320
power exercise, but they're a 
sub, a unique subset because of 

953
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:45,480
that characterization. 
But character if I'm. 

954
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,520
Wrong sounds like a great full 
podcast episode topic. 

955
00:47:48,720 --> 00:47:52,200
I think, you know, different 
types of specifications and 

956
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,000
going into the weeds a little 
bit more, it'd be fun. 

957
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,080
All right, we've got one more 
for the night. 

958
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:01,120
It's another shoe question. 
We've just been able to start 

959
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:05,440
testing some shoes from Deodora.
They reached out to us and asked

960
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:09,280
if we wanted to take some time 
to test out their model. 

961
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:10,520
So they started sending us some 
stuff. 

962
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:14,000
So we've been able to do that. 
So we are comparing one of their

963
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,680
models, the cellular to the 
Nimbus 27. 

964
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,640
So this or that cellular or 
Nimbus 27? 

965
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,520
Cellular. 
David, you first. 

966
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,280
I actually into why. 
Yeah, Yeah, I actually really 

967
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:30,360
like the cellular I it was a 
pleasant surprise for me. 

968
00:48:30,800 --> 00:48:34,440
Now this is meant to be like 
they didn't give a formal stack 

969
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,960
height on their website. 
They said 40 plus millimeter. 

970
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,840
So it's a high cushion shoe. 
Now this is kind of Hoka esque 

971
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,800
in that like it's kind of like 
that structure Eva feel. 

972
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,960
It's nothing like super bouncy, 
but it it has a lot of foam. 

973
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,040
There's plenty of cushioning. 
Like it's not like there isn't 

974
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:54,640
cushioning. 
It's just a little bit firmer. 

975
00:48:55,240 --> 00:48:58,440
And I like the way they 
constructed the side walls here.

976
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,320
You have a really stable rear 
foot, but it's not super built 

977
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,600
out like the Bondi that we were 
talking about earlier. 

978
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,480
But I do think there's some 
resemblance to that and it plays

979
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,000
off of its geometry. 
It is kind of a stiffer rocker 

980
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,440
shoe, but again, as you can kind
of see that forefoot isn't super

981
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,520
dramatic and neither is the 
heel. 

982
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:19,280
It's rounded, but it's not it. 
It's a nice balanced rocker 

983
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:22,000
profile and it's pretty stiff. 
I mean like there's a little bit

984
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,280
of flexibility when you load it,
but it it's a pretty stiff shoe.

985
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,720
Another one where we were 
talking about volume. 

986
00:49:27,720 --> 00:49:31,400
It started off pretty snug, but 
it broke in pretty well and I 

987
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,440
was very thankful it did because
I wasn't 100% sure if it was 

988
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,880
going to work for me. 
But outside of fixing a couple 

989
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:41,560
things on the upper, you know, 
there, I have really enjoyed the

990
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:43,520
ride of this shoe and it's very 
rhythmic. 

991
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,840
It works around mechanics and 
again, it's nothing like super 

992
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:51,120
responsive per SE, but it's a 
nice daily shoe to just beat up 

993
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:54,840
miles in. 
So I've really enjoyed my time 

994
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,560
with the Cellula. 
It's kind of like that slightly 

995
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:02,080
structured, you know, neutral 
shoe like that mild stability 

996
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:03,080
type. 
Shit. 

997
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:04,760
Well, Matt, why the Nimbus for 
you? 

998
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,200
Yeah, I I Nimbus 2727, we're on 
the Nimbus 27. 

999
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:10,720
I think David did a great job in
his cellular review. 

1000
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:13,200
I haven't fortunately got enough
miles to be able to contribute 

1001
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,120
to that, but I think you hit 
that on the head where I was 

1002
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:16,080
like, wow, this is really 
pleasant. 

1003
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:22,240
I was really, I haven't tried to
Diadora shoe actually that No, 

1004
00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:25,320
yeah, that's really the 1st 
first couple that I tried. 

1005
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,240
And I actually felt like 
initially was a team bit firm 

1006
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:29,320
and then the cushioning was like
very well balanced. 

1007
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,480
Like it broke in very nicely. 
And yeah, I want to echo that 

1008
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:36,800
those uppers on Diadora like 
felt so low volume and snug and 

1009
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,720
it's like and it like an Italian
leather shoe that I've actually 

1010
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:41,760
never worn a shoe that is 
Italian leather. 

1011
00:50:41,760 --> 00:50:44,200
So I just am making this 
reference with no background, 

1012
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:45,760
just suppose that this is the 
thing. 

1013
00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:48,720
But yeah, it broke in and then I
was like, oh, this is kind of 

1014
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:50,760
nice, like form fitting. 
I totally get you. 

1015
00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:57,880
I just like the Nimbus because 
it really did a like a 360, you 

1016
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:05,440
know, a 180. 
So I can't do English. 

1017
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,680
I can't do English, but I can. 
I know my plan checks so 

1018
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:14,960
hopefully that helps a 180. 
Oh gosh. 

1019
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:21,400
Total loss of everything, total 
180 and that I felt like 2526 

1020
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:26,520
was really soft and then 27 was 
like like more resilient like 

1021
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,400
it. 
It felt more firm but really 

1022
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,640
cushioned. 
It rolled really nicely. 

1023
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:37,080
It was kind of what I wanted the
Cumulus to be, but the Cumulus 

1024
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:40,520
doesn't fit me very well on that
that 4 foot rocker that the toe 

1025
00:51:40,520 --> 00:51:42,960
spring is so rough that I just 
couldn't run in that much. 

1026
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:45,600
But it really is balanced very 
nicely. 

1027
00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:48,520
I wouldn't, I would say similar 
to cellular, it's not full 

1028
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,640
stable neutral, but it's getting
there where it's enough And it 

1029
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:55,520
just, it rode better for me and 
I, I appreciate the cellular. 

1030
00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:58,960
I think just the upper took long
enough that I was like, sorry, 

1031
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,640
Nimbus is going to win this. 
Yeah, and I think my opinion on 

1032
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,280
the Nimbus is 25 is wicked soft 
26. 

1033
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,160
They did change the foam and it 
got slightly firmer and now they

1034
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,600
are moving that direction. 
Great. 

1035
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,000
Well, thank you all for joining 
us for oh, you have something to

1036
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:16,400
say? 
One more. 

1037
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,080
Do you want you want to do? 
That because I want to be right 

1038
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,760
and I want to hear David's full 
thoughts on this too. 

1039
00:52:22,440 --> 00:52:25,840
All right, so one last one then.
I was going to wrap this up, but

1040
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,680
we got one more I. 
Was ready for night night. 

1041
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,000
Yeah, we're going to go to bed. 
Jeez. 

1042
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,080
We've already. 
Been here? 

1043
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:33,680
Talk about shoes. 
Half hour later because of Nate 

1044
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:34,840
you. 
Know yeah with my fault. 

1045
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:36,440
I know. 
Yeah. 

1046
00:52:38,400 --> 00:52:40,240
All right, so here it is, the 
final. 

1047
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,320
I do that to Nate all the time. 
It's it's a joke. 

1048
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,920
I don't yes, I intentionally 
jokingly get after. 

1049
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,400
Him as much as possible. 
Yeah. 

1050
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,920
Whenever, whenever David says 
something nice to me, I'm like, 

1051
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,000
what's behind this? 
There must be a joke that I'm 

1052
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,760
not getting because he doesn't 
actually say nice things to me. 

1053
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,760
But in the in a loving way. 
Like, we know this, OK, but here

1054
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:05,160
it is our final one from 
Saucony. 

1055
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:09,520
Endorphin Elite One or Endorphin
Elite 2. 

1056
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,440
Take it away, David. 
Of course. 

1057
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:20,400
It's a hard one, man. 
I I went back. 

1058
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,960
And you raised marathons in the 
elite one like? 

1059
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,840
Yeah, yeah, My PR is in the 
elite one. 

1060
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:32,880
It's a very, very hard answer, 
but I think I'm going to go 

1061
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:35,360
Indoorfin Elite too. 
Wow. 

1062
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,400
But it didn't. 
It took some convincing. 

1063
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:42,960
It wasn't when I first put it 
on, I wasn't entirely sure about

1064
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,800
it. 
That Incredarone foam is really 

1065
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,240
soft. 
It's really soft, very 

1066
00:53:49,240 --> 00:53:51,160
compliant, but it's really 
bouncy. 

1067
00:53:51,240 --> 00:53:54,600
You know, it does give you 
responsiveness when you load it.

1068
00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:03,800
And I think where I started 
really noticing a difference in 

1069
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,320
the shoes. 
So it's, it's ironic because 

1070
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:10,640
what I loved about Endorphin 
Elite One was that that HG foam 

1071
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,440
was a little bit firmer, but it 
was still really bouncy and it 

1072
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:17,640
was nice and responsive and it 
did well with the geometry. 

1073
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:21,960
Where things differ here on 
Endorphin Elite 2, I do wish the

1074
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:23,280
forfeit actually we're talking 
about width. 

1075
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,520
I wish that was a little bit 
wider in the Elite 2. 

1076
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:28,720
I do feel it on the edges, but 
it's not enough for me to be 

1077
00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:33,360
like, I can't run in it. 
The traction is better on Elite 

1078
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:36,280
2. 
Traction on Elite One, I did 

1079
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:37,560
start to get a little bit of 
slipping. 

1080
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,240
I didn't initially, but then 
once it started like breaking in

1081
00:54:40,240 --> 00:54:42,400
a little bit more like that 
rubber started to slide a little

1082
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,280
bit. 
So I think it grips a little bit

1083
00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:49,720
better on Endorphin Elite 2 for 
how soft that shoe is where I 

1084
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:52,120
land. 
I don't feel like it was wildly 

1085
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,560
unstable. 
Was it more unstable than Elite 

1086
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,640
One? 
Yes, but I feel like the upper 

1087
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:59,760
lockdown, well, it really got 
you onto that platform. 

1088
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:01,240
Traction was a little bit 
better. 

1089
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:06,000
Now where I land, I don't land 
quite as hard on that heel like 

1090
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,680
Klein does. 
And I we had a very different 

1091
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:12,000
experiences on that initial 
contact and landing through that

1092
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,240
region. 
I think if I did land harder 

1093
00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:16,800
there, my answer might be 
different. 

1094
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:20,680
But I think my mechanics still 
respond to the geometry of 

1095
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,400
Endorphin Elite 2 similar enough
to one to where I can look past 

1096
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,800
some of that softness for some 
of that increased balance, 

1097
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,960
because I do think some of that 
responsiveness is higher in the 

1098
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,400
Endorphin Elite 2. 
And with the workouts I did when

1099
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:37,440
I settled into like a float or 
when I kind of was in more in 

1100
00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:41,560
that marathon type pacing, that 
shoe felt really rhythmic and 

1101
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:46,680
really smooth. 
So I haven't raced in it yet. 

1102
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,440
You know, I I just haven't done 
a lot of racing lately and the 

1103
00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:54,520
shoe was a recent acquisition, 
but looking at 1/2 in the 

1104
00:55:54,520 --> 00:55:58,640
future, I was eyeing it as maybe
running in the elite two over 

1105
00:55:58,640 --> 00:55:59,720
the edge. 
Paris. 

1106
00:55:59,880 --> 00:56:02,520
It's I'm on the fence. 
I'm still thinking about it. 

1107
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:08,640
But as much as I love the Elite 
one, I do think I'm going to go 

1108
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,640
Elite 2. 
I think it's just enough of 

1109
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:15,440
positive impacts for me to just 
give it that nod. 

1110
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:17,720
Yeah. 
Nice. 

1111
00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:21,440
And you said it was less stable,
but I think Matt and yours, that

1112
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,800
was one of your most state, the 
elite one was one of the most 

1113
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,920
stable racing. 
Shoes, and this certainly is 

1114
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,920
not. 
So right, so. 

1115
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,600
But it didn't go from an 
unstable racing shoe to a more 

1116
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,880
unstable racing shoe. 
It went from stable to on the 

1117
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:38,640
spectrum, yes. 
Matt, do you have anything to 

1118
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:40,520
add? 
I think David touched a lot. 

1119
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:41,960
There's a lot of great 
improvements. 

1120
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:44,040
The dirt like I this is my left 
shoe. 

1121
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,160
I've got almost 40 miles on 
that, whereas the Elite one 

1122
00:56:48,160 --> 00:56:50,040
couldn't handle that. 
The traction is David. 

1123
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,840
Especially for how soft that 
shoe is, you really are going to

1124
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:55,720
be like grinding that thing. 
Sorry, that's not me knocking 

1125
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:57,320
his mechanics. 
It's just the way he lands. 

1126
00:56:57,840 --> 00:57:00,400
Like, yeah, I would think he 
would tear that out so. 

1127
00:57:00,720 --> 00:57:02,480
Poor David's gotten enough shoes
for me. 

1128
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,760
He's like what the heck 
happened, Shoe so. 

1129
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:08,840
On one of the shoes he sent me, 
he he literally like shoe gooed 

1130
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:13,040
the outsole back on and it was 
like this super thin, like 

1131
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,640
liquid rubber kind of thing. 
And he just like you could just 

1132
00:57:15,640 --> 00:57:19,000
tell like how hard he tried to 
just like tried really hard 

1133
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,360
strip back on there. 
Like trying to give this an 

1134
00:57:21,360 --> 00:57:22,600
accurate reputation to Port 
David. 

1135
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:26,320
There's a lot of things that are
the the outsole stuff is better,

1136
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:29,440
the traction is better. 
I think a lot of people are 

1137
00:57:29,440 --> 00:57:34,080
actually going to like the Elite
tube more because it is softer. 

1138
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:38,840
It is, in my opinion, like the 
bouncy of shoe on the market. 

1139
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,240
It's crazy bouncy. 
The problem is the narrower 

1140
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,800
platform. 
It's just not stable enough for 

1141
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:46,760
me to take super long. 
I'm still going to try to get as

1142
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:50,120
many miles on it, But like it 
that rear foot is unstable 

1143
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,240
enough that like I get a little 
bit of like calcaneal Achilles 

1144
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:54,760
irritation from excessive 
motion. 

1145
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:58,440
So I have to be a little bit 
cautious, but Elite 1 is going 

1146
00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:01,280
to be because that was like one 
of the great, you know, stable, 

1147
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:02,760
neutral shoes that work for a 
lot of people. 

1148
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:05,600
I know we're a little niche in 
those looking for a super shoe 

1149
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,200
that's more stable, but because 
of that, yes. 

1150
00:58:09,280 --> 00:58:11,000
But I still think version 2 is 
great. 

1151
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,040
I'm just going to pick version 
1. 

1152
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:13,280
Matt, do I have your? 
Yeah, it's fine. 

1153
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:14,880
Yeah. 
All right, great. 

1154
00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:16,960
You don't want. 
To ask if each shoe is a pizza. 

1155
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,280
What we're going to do? 
Or no. 

1156
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:21,440
Don't ask me. 
Thank you all. 

1157
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:23,960
Thank you all again for joining 
us again. 

1158
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,920
If you are new to the podcast 
listening, thanks for checking 

1159
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:31,200
us out and we always love to 
hear people's perspective of 

1160
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:33,600
what they want to have heard on 
the podcast. 

1161
00:58:33,600 --> 00:58:38,280
So you can e-mail, e-mail us at 
doctorsofrunning@gmail.com and 

1162
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,560
or you can comment below if 
you're watching on YouTube. 

1163
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,480
And we look forward to hearing 
what y'all have to say and look 

1164
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:44,600
forward to talking to you next 
time.