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Hello everyone and welcome to 
the Doctors of Running podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, discuss the 

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art and science of running and 
the stuff that we put on our 

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feet. 
Today at the Round Table we have

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Myself, I'm hosting, I'm Nathan 
Brown and I have Doctor David 

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Salas with us and we are going 
to be digging into your 

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questions. 
And what we have loved lately is

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the amount of questions that you
all send us through e-mail. 

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We apologize that we don't have 
the capacity to get to all of 

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them written, but we do 
appreciate having them because 

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then we can try to address them 
through this podcast. 

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And for us, it's been a fun way 
to engage with you all who are 

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following along what we're doing
and hopefully have discussions 

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that are helpful for you. 
One thing, when we go into 

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episodes like this, people are 
asking pretty personal questions

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about their individual injury 
history. 

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And as you know, and we've said 
this before, this podcast is not

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medical advice, this is 
educational content discussing 

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case studies and working our way
through how we would process it 

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with the information that we 
have. 

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So with that out of the way, 
David, how are you and kind of 

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what was your week like and what
phase of training are you in 

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right now? 
Yeah, doing good. 

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I'm a little bit tired, just 
kind of long week at work. 

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We have a long weekend currently
though, going into this weekend,

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so that'll be nice. 
Get some sleep tonight and not 

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have to worry about getting up 
early tomorrow, but no doing 

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well. 
I'll be doing a track season 

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this year, so I got a couple 
things lined up in the next few 

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weeks. 
So by the time this comes out, I

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probably would have already ran 
it, but 3K on deck next Saturday

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outdoors and then I'll be doing 
a 5 KA couple weeks after that 

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on the track as well. 
And then I'll probably take a 

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few weeks off and then come back
early April for another 5K. 

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And then I probably do the 2nd 
Oxy meet in the beginning of May

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for another 5K and then probably
take a little break after that. 

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So we're kind of ramping it up 
right now, just kind of getting 

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used to being at that pace again
and also just getting used to 

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spiking up again. 
I'm I'm starting to get to that 

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age where I'm like these these 
spikes, yeah, these spikes are 

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starting to sting a little bit 
more by the year. 

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But I think. 
I mean, I still think spiking is

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good, but yeah, doing good. 
Cool, Good. 

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I've finally been back to 
running, I would say somewhat 

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consistently for the past three 
to four weeks. 

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And I know I had my own solo 
episode where I kind of talked 

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about my injury over the past 
year. 

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So if you haven't heard that, 
you can go back if you want 

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Context. 
But I've been encouraged because

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actually over the past couple 
weeks with the amount of running

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I'm doing, my foot actually 
feels better now than it did 

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three weeks ago, kind of knock 
on wood. 

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I don't feel like I'm out of the
woods, but there's a five mile 

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race that happens in the first 
weekend of March every year in 

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town. 
It's called the Bach Run. 

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And so it's at our local brewery
and it's just an out and back 

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and it's just like. 
Yeah, yeah, you've told me 

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about. 2000 Runners Super fun. 
I would actually love for you 

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all to come out here and run it 
with us. 

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It like sells out pretty early 
after registration opens, but 

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it's just a really fun event and
I'm glad that as of now I'd be 

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able to run it like I'm not race
it, but I'd be able to run it. 

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So like I ran 6 miles almost 
this morning. 

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So that's been really 
encouraging to just be able to 

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get out there and move again. 
And I've been doing some more 

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lifting and all that kind of 
jazz. 

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So it's been good. 
So we are going to move into 

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again, this is a pretty thick 
episode. 

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The questions are hard hitting 
and and pretty specific, but 

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they should hopefully be 
enlightening to think about how 

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we process injuries, how you can
think about the relationship of 

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shoes and injuries and all that 
kind of stuff. 

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But before we even go to that, 
we want to ask our subjective 

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question of the week and it was 
actually inspired. 

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David chugged the rest of his 
noon hydration before we just 

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started recording. 
And so we want to ask you all, 

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what is your favorite in run or 
post run hydration? 

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What is the thing that you lean 
to? 

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What's the your favorite for 
your stomach or flavor, 

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whatever. 
So drop below what your favorite

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is and why. 
All right, here is our first 

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question. 
Justin sends in an injury and 

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shoe question and basically he 
was saying a couple years ago I 

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ended up with a series of 
injuries including a pretty 

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severe calf strain followed 
immediately by some Achilles 

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tendonitis on both sides. 
Further, well, I was in PT. 

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My doctor noted that my ankle 
range of motion was very limited

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and he said like limited enough 
that he checked measuring with 

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his measuring device to see that
it was there. 

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He's finally getting his mileage
back up and shooting for Eugene 

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in April. 
I assuming he means a marathon 

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in Eugene, but I'm not exactly 
sure. 

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I'm very. 
Yeah, I think Eugene marathons 

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around that time, yeah. 
I'm very nervous, though, about 

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reinjuring my calves. 
I know that no one shoe can be 

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expected to protect fully from 
an injury, but I'm wondering 

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what sort of recommendations or 
ideas you've had for shoes to 

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experiment with fortunate enough
that financially there isn't any

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barriers, so we can try a couple
things to see what works. 

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Lately he's been doing longer 
workouts in AP threes, which he 

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does like. 
Nice. 

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I mean, yeah, I don't think the 
Alphafly 3 is a bad choice 

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there. 
I think I would probably look at

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something that has a little bit 
more toe spring if you're having

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some calf sensitivity. 
Obviously address the calf stuff

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first, you know. 
I'm assuming I think he means 

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audios pro threes AP. 
Audios Pro 3. 

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AP3. 
Alpha fly. 

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Oh, wait. 
Oh, you're probably right. 

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I don't know what AF three would
be. 

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Alpha fly? 
Huh. 

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I don't know. 
Oh my goodness. 

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It's all. 
Good. 

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We're starting off strong, baby.
I mean, that's not a bad one. 

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Like, that's another one where 
it's kind of like in the same 

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wheelhouse where you kind of 
have a sharper toe spring up 

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front. 
I think the Saucony endorphin 

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elite kind of falls in there as 
well. 

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Really it just kind of comes 
down to what feels good for you 

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and I. 
But I would probably assume 

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there might be some underlying 
stability issues there, like 

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deep in those intrinsic muscles,
whether it's the foot, calf, 

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lower leg, proximal hip, so 
something with a little bit of a

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wider base to it, maybe a 
sharper toe. 

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Spraying the new CLOX might 
actually not be a bad option 

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either for Hoka. 
That's Super Rockard the whole 

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way. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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So I would look probably 
something more along that kind 

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of almost hyper Rockard profile,
but more so at the front than 

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the back. 
Yeah, I think a couple of things

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that pop into my head. 
I know that he's asking about 

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shoes, but I think to give some 
context of some of the stuff 

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he's been going through. 
So when he when he's Speaking of

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ankle range of motion limited, 
what we're assuming is that that

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means dorsiflexion. 
So the toes coming up towards 

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the shin, you do need enough of 
that to get through the gait 

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cycle. 
You use that through the mid 

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stance of running and then he's 
talking about Achilles 

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tendinopathy or sorry he said 
Achilles tendonitis and calf 

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strains. 
And so one of the things that we

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think about with from not a shoe
perspective but from kind of an 

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injury perspective is you know 
if you're not already on a 

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continual Achilles tendon 
loading program, probably smart 

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to maybe consult your physio as 
you're going to be building your

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your mileage back up just to 
make sure that you have a 

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maintenance program of calf 
loading because these things can

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take a really long time to heal.
We had a whole episode on 

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Achilles tendinopathy that you 
can go back and listen to, but 

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that will be an important part 
of getting to Eugene healthy and

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I'm glad that you have a PT who 
you're working with. 

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It sounds like they know what 
they're doing so I would just 

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maybe check in with them. 
Hey, what things should I make 

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sure that I'm doing to prevent 
this from coming back outside of

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the shoe realm? 
So we'll kind of put the non 

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shoe realm off to the side now. 
But now when we think about the 

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shoes, like you said David, you 
started talking about different 

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rocker shoes. 
And part of the reason we talk 

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about rocker shoes with Achilles
stuff and with limited ankle 

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range of motion is that when you
have a rocker, which is that 

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curved side and underbottom part
of the shoe, that does two 

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things. 
One, it replaces the natural 

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rocker of the foot. 
So if the shoe has a rocker that

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you're rolling over, that means 
you don't need to use as much 

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dorsiflexion or that ankle 
mobility that he's limited in. 

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You don't need as much to have A
to if you have a rocker there. 

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The second thing it does is it 
decreases the overall demand on 

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the calf and Achilles, partially
because you're going through 

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less range of motion and less 
strain. 

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And so and it it decreases 
planter pressures, so the part 

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of the pressure and by the ball 
the foot is decreased which 

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means that you need to produce 
less force through your calves. 

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So kind of with that in mind, a 
couple of shoes that that popped

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into my mind or even just 
concept is you know what you 

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would probably want to consider 
the most is what am I going to 

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be spending the most time in or 
the most time on my feet doing. 

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So you've already mentioned 
longer workouts. 

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You have a shoe that has a 
rocker to it. 

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I would, I would play around 
with different models both that 

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have a plate and maybe some that
don't that give you that rocker 

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that's a little bit more 
assistive and you had talked 

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about that 4 foot rocker David 
and I agree in one shoe that is 

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still on the market is the Glide
Ride 3 from a six and that if 

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that shoe ends up working out 
for you and you can feel like 

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it's not putting extra load on 
your calf. 

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I I would recommend kind of 
checking that one out and seeing

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if it works for you for a lot of
your daily training, maybe some 

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of the longer runs kind of 
stuff. 

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It's got a lot amount of 
cushion. 

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It is really, it's soft and and 
cushion, but it has a pretty 

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steep rocker in the front and it
has a plate that kind of 

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supports it. 
It's not a super stiff plate, 

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but stiff enough that you would 
actually get to use the rocker. 

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So that was another one that 
came into my head. 

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I think that I agreed with you 
from like a racing shoe 

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perspective. 
If you're looking at that 

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endorphin elite, just making 
sure that the, you know where 

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that rocker is doesn't make it 
hard for you to get up over it. 

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I know for me that one is a 
little bit harder to get up, 

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whereas the Endorphin Pro 3 for 
me feels like I can just kind of

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keep rolling through Another 
shoe potentially for training 

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that that could potentially work
is the SC Elite Three. 

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We haven't tested the four yet, 
but the SC Elite Three is. 

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We talked about this in our 
private chat, but a lot of us 

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really like it more for training
than we do for racing. 

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And so if that's a comfortable 
shoe for you and you can feel 

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that rocker, that that could be 
an option too. 

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So are there any others for you,
David, that come into your head 

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worth trying? 
Yeah, going into the training 

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side of things, I think the on 
Cloud monster could be another 

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option as well. 
Whether it's the one or the two,

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two just came out. 
It's same thing. 

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High Stack Rockford has a plate 
a tiny bit of flexibility, but 

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you know it lets you just roll 
off the front there, and it's 

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one of my favorite shoes for 
longer, steady work as well. 

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I really like your idea about 
this yellow X1. 

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I feel like that's that's a very
rocker shoe Like just rolls the 

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whole way. 
So yeah, great. 

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Cool. 
Well, let's go to our next 

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question. 
This is from Jamie. 

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Jamie sends a question about 
trail trail shoes and fitting of

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those shoes and Jamie's been 
having some kind of biting on 

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the arch of their foot, whether 
we it wasn't super clear if it 

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was blisters or some other 
thing, but we're kind of 

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assuming blisters and they they 
ask any recommendations for 

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trail running shoes that are 
wider in the midfoot area that 

226
00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,120
may alleviate this problem? 
From reading your website, the 

227
00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:13,760
Ultra Lone Peak 8 wides may seem
to be a best option for midfoot 

228
00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:16,560
with but people seem to complain
about the durability of ultras 

229
00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,280
and favor Topo athletic brand 
instead, which also has the same

230
00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,240
wide toe foot, but apparently 
it's narrower in the midfoot 

231
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:26,960
than the Lone Peaks. 
They're open to suggestions. 

232
00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,920
They are using it for a 10K 
trail running on dry, flat, 

233
00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,520
non-technical conditions. 
Yeah, that's that's a good 

234
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,760
question. 
I think there's a larger 

235
00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:42,880
question to be had here. 
Like what's creating the 

236
00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,160
irritation on the inside of that
foot? 

237
00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,760
I'm assuming the inside of the 
foot based on the whole arch 

238
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,840
biting thing. 
Sometimes it could just 

239
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,920
literally be sensitivity to the 
side wall in the shoe and have 

240
00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,160
nothing independent of the 
actual width of the upper. 

241
00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,520
That's almost what I naturally 
am kind of leaning towards 

242
00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,720
there. 
So I honestly any of those other

243
00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:11,080
options would probably be fine 
whether it's like a lone peak or

244
00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,680
the topo pursuit or. 
Ultraventure would work. 

245
00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,800
Yeah, yeah, any of them would 
probably be fine. 

246
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,720
And check those boxes. 
So it would just really be 

247
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:25,960
whatever you're comfortable 
with. 

248
00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:30,280
I think that the, I I forgot to 
say that what they're using is 

249
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,200
the Hoka speed goat fives in to 
E with and I and I think what 

250
00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,040
you said about sidewall is very 
apartment there because Hokas do

251
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,720
operate off of a lot of sidewall
work through their mid foot and 

252
00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,200
I've known a lot of friends who 
have issues you know with the 

253
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,600
with the build up of that there.
So I would, I would say it's 

254
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,400
more about the relationship with
your foot and probably the side 

255
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,000
walls than it is with the actual
width of the shoe, like you 

256
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,560
said, David. 
And another one that came into 

257
00:12:55,560 --> 00:12:59,640
my mind is from Salomon. 
It's the Oh my gosh, I was going

258
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,000
to call it the Glide Ride 2 
Ultra Glide. 

259
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:06,880
The Ultra Glide 2 because it's 
got kind of a a looser midfoot. 

260
00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:11,520
It's not like a super wide shoe,
but it doesn't constrict around 

261
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:13,800
any area of the foot. 
So I think that could be one 

262
00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,760
worth checking out. 
That would also give you a 

263
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:19,640
similar kind of Rockard like 
slightly Rockard platform in the

264
00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,880
same amount of cushion that the 
speed Goat gives. 

265
00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,600
Whereas moving to like an Ultra 
or even with Topo. 

266
00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,200
If you're going with like the 
with the ultra venture from 

267
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:32,440
Topo, those go into more of like
a really flexible 4 foot little 

268
00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,440
bit less cushioning. 
And it would just be another, it

269
00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:37,320
would be a whole different 
running experience than what 

270
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,240
you're getting in the Hoka. 
So you could check out Solomon 

271
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,240
Ultra Glide too. 
That one would have that same 

272
00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,280
cushioning but has a little bit 
looser of a midfoot. 

273
00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,920
But I personally haven't had 
issues with that biting from any

274
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:52,440
side walls. 
So it's hard for me to know if 

275
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,280
there would be a big difference 
between those two because I got 

276
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,880
along well with this, the Hocus 
Speed Goat 52 E actually, it's 

277
00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:02,600
like one of my favorite ones, 
but but I I get the idea of 

278
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,920
that, that side wall and there's
just less in that other model. 

279
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,840
Any other ones from you? 
Yeah. 

280
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,080
So this one obviously is a 
little bit different and 

281
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,680
probably from a budget 
standpoint it might not be worth

282
00:14:17,680 --> 00:14:20,440
the squeeze for just generic 
training, but the Nike Ultra Fly

283
00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:23,240
is also pretty wide. 
Yeah, that's true. 

284
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:27,160
And it's like and it has good 
room for toast play and it it's 

285
00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:31,320
it's a solid shoe all around. 
I feel like from a fit 

286
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:33,680
standpoint that would probably 
check the boxes as well. 

287
00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:37,160
It's just I mean what does that 
thing retail for that's like 250

288
00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:38,920
or something. 
Yeah. 

289
00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:41,760
So it's like it's probably, I 
would probably go for one of 

290
00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,120
those other ones first, but 
that's that's another one that 

291
00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,440
comes to mind. 
Yeah, great. 

292
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:51,240
All right, so next Alex sends us
a fun question on racing and 

293
00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:56,040
racing shoes, Having a question 
about a downhill marathon and 

294
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,280
felt like it could be an 
interesting topic conversation 

295
00:14:58,280 --> 00:14:59,720
for your podcast. 
Well, here we are. 

296
00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,960
I'll be running the Rebel 
Rockies Marathon in June. 

297
00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,720
This is a marathon with a net 
altitude drop of 4708 feet. 

298
00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:12,640
Briefly, I'm a 38 year old, 
moderately experienced runner, 3

299
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,840
pass marathons and fastest time 
307. 

300
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,800
Nice goal is a Boston qualifying
time. 

301
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,640
So here's the questions. 
Do you have specific racing 

302
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,560
shoes that you'd recommend for 
downhill racing? 

303
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:28,240
To help quote absorb the impact 
of highly net downhill racing 2,

304
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,480
would you recommend a super shoe
or would that category of shoe 

305
00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:34,760
be too unstable for a 
significant downhill race? 

306
00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,760
Also of note, this person has 
never ran in a super shoe so 

307
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,280
that's not something that they 
have experience in. 

308
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,720
Mostly been running in the 
Clifton the Tektonex 2 from Hoka

309
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,800
and has previously ran marathons
in the Brooks Ghosts. 

310
00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:56,160
Yeah, I've I'd be very hesitant 
to to recommend a super shoe if 

311
00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:58,960
you're not used to it and you're
going to take it down 4000 feet 

312
00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:03,480
avert. 
It's not that it's a bad thing 

313
00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,240
per SE. 
It's just I I don't think the 

314
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,280
juice would be worth the squeeze
there, especially if you're used

315
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,320
to. 
He ran in the ghost, right For 

316
00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:13,040
the previous marathons. 
It's like you've already run 

317
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:15,320
three O 7 and a ghost. 
It's like pretty much any other 

318
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,920
shoe will be faster from a 
performance standpoint. 

319
00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,920
That is not a knock on Brooks in
any way, but that is just like 

320
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:27,400
it sounds just. 
A funny statement. 

321
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:30,360
Like I I I wouldn't be worried 
there. 

322
00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:34,320
I think it would just be a 
matter of what is comfortable 

323
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:39,120
for you with downhills. 
And it sounds like there's a 

324
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,000
little bit of a shift there 
'cause like the Ghost is a 

325
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:45,080
pretty high stack, neutral shoe.
And then I'm not high stack, 

326
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,960
high drop, Well, it's a 
relatively high stack too, but 

327
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:53,200
the Clifton's a 5mm drop with a 
rocker. 

328
00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,520
I think the biggest thing that I
would look into with a downhill,

329
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,280
specifically with that much is 
to just be a little bit careful 

330
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,280
with having something that's 
overly rokered where you almost 

331
00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,520
like lose your stride, if that 
makes sense, where you start 

332
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,400
over striding because you have 
this like immense amount of 

333
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,200
gravity, like pulling you down, 
right. 

334
00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,160
So I would just be hesitant of 
something like that. 

335
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,240
So like for some like a downhill
race down the mountains in the 

336
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,640
Rockies, I don't think I would 
say the Cielo X1 in that one, 

337
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,880
you know, I feel like that would
be your strides going to open up

338
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:27,319
like crazy. 
You're probably going to be a 

339
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:29,760
little bit unstable. 
The roads are probably campered.

340
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:31,080
You're probably going to be, you
know. 

341
00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,480
So I I wouldn't opt for that. 
I I would think if you were 

342
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,040
interested in something that had
a little bit of a super shoe 

343
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,440
esque feel to it, but still had 
a little bit more stability on 

344
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,040
it and maybe a little bit less 
dramatic, I would think like the

345
00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,920
ASIC Super Blast could be a good
option there and traction on 

346
00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:51,640
that's pretty good. 
So depending on what the 

347
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,240
conditions are on the Rockies 
and coming down the hill like I 

348
00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,160
feel like that would hold up 
pretty well. 

349
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:01,080
But honestly, if you're running 
in a Clifton, a Clifton's not 

350
00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,320
that bad of an option like. 
Yeah, totally. 

351
00:18:03,360 --> 00:18:05,280
If you. 
Ran If you've run in the ghosts 

352
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,680
like the Clifton, what it weighs
like 9:00-ish oz now? 

353
00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,840
Like, it's not that heavy and it
has a good cushion. 

354
00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,800
It's a relatively responsive 
shoe. 

355
00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:17,360
For a trainer like that's 
actually not a bad option to 

356
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:20,920
just stay with the Clifton. 
Yeah, you know and there's I 

357
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,200
feel like there's a lot of 
potential factors. 

358
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,120
You know, this is, this is one 
of those studies, these subjects

359
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,840
that isn't like extensively 
studied. 

360
00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,320
I think that there was one study
that came out from the BYU lab 

361
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,920
where they looked at uphill, 
downhill and flat racing and 

362
00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:37,840
super shoes in terms of running 
the economy. 

363
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,160
And there was, correct me if I'm
wrong, David if you remember, 

364
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,120
but there was some similar 
benefit of the percentage of 

365
00:18:44,120 --> 00:18:47,320
running economy benefit gained 
through the different whether if

366
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:51,520
it was uphill, flat or downhill.
And those were in the early 

367
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:57,720
versions of the endorphin pro. 
So that is not a super duper 

368
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,400
aggressive shoe. 
It's a little bit more narrow of

369
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,480
a platform with a pretty solid 
rocker but nothing like super, 

370
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,760
nothing super crazy. 
So there's that one factor of it

371
00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:08,160
which is running economy of 
running downhill. 

372
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,480
When we run downhill typically 
people experience running 

373
00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:12,920
downhill. 
So differently in terms of what 

374
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,040
fatigues but from a bio mechanic
standpoint in general you're 

375
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:19,040
going to be loading this 
anterior chain more throughout 

376
00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,360
the the time in the run. 
So your shin muscles, your 

377
00:19:22,360 --> 00:19:24,800
tibias and anterior and then 
your quads are going to be 

378
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,800
taking the brunt of the load. 
Something that that that. 

379
00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:31,440
Because of that you're already 
on like a pitch downhill. 

380
00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:37,120
You probably could do a little 
bit lower stack of a or a little

381
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:40,800
bit lower drop of a shoe even if
you're not used to it, just 

382
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,080
because then you're already on a
little bit of a pitch and you 

383
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:45,760
don't need to pitch yourself 
even further. 

384
00:19:45,760 --> 00:19:48,280
So I know that you said you're 
not using the ghost anymore 

385
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:50,680
because it hasn't worked for you
and you've kind of come down to 

386
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:52,680
those Hokas. 
And I feel like that's probably 

387
00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,200
one of the things I would 
consider for a straight downhill

388
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,200
race. 
And I looked up this race and 

389
00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,920
it's like consistently downhill 
the whole time. 

390
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:02,120
It's not like it goes down and 
then flattened down and flat. 

391
00:20:02,120 --> 00:20:05,120
It's just. 
The elevation just slowly drops.

392
00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:06,480
Yeah, you're just, you're just 
going. 

393
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,720
So it seems like you'd be able 
to get in rhythm and therefore, 

394
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,680
like you said, you'd want to 
find something that you can get 

395
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,360
in that rhythm and not kind of 
be pitched forward too much. 

396
00:20:14,360 --> 00:20:18,080
So a really aggressive rocker 
super shoe probably is not the 

397
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,360
best option in my mind. 
If you were going to go that 

398
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:23,600
route and you're really curious 
and you want to try some stuff 

399
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:28,360
out, I would look for one of the
lower stacked ones that are a 

400
00:20:28,360 --> 00:20:33,240
little bit wider platform. 
So actually the there's a couple

401
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,080
that popped in my head. 
One was the rocket X2 from Hoka 

402
00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,080
just because you have that 
slightly slightly lower stack, 

403
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:45,000
the meta speed sky from ASICS 
and then Pumas deviate Nitro 

404
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,720
Elite. 
Those would be 3 that I would 

405
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,840
consider as like hey these could
be somewhat controlled on that 

406
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,240
downhill, but those really 
aggressively rockered. 

407
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,200
Like I wouldn't take either of 
the endorphin, what personally I

408
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,240
wouldn't take either of the 
endorphin ones, I wouldn't take 

409
00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:03,160
the Vapor Fly or this is for me 
Vapor Fly or Alpha Fly downhill.

410
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:05,400
I'd want something that's going 
to kind of flatten me out a 

411
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,680
little bit and have that little 
bit lower drop and and not too 

412
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,800
aggressively pitch forward. 
But I also agree with you David 

413
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,600
that if if the Clifton is 
working for you that would 

414
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:21,320
actually be a super solid shoe, 
slightly lower stack or sorry 

415
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,040
slightly lower drop and you're 
used to the cushioning. 

416
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:28,560
It's a pretty that shoe can turn
over decently well like I, that 

417
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,720
was one of my favorite trainers 
and I feel like taking that and 

418
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,720
being comfortable downhill would
be not the worst thing in the 

419
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:37,400
world. 
I also just think it's going to 

420
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,920
depend on where you're training.
You know, if you're in if you're

421
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:42,560
able to practice this stuff. 
It's a whole different ball game

422
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:44,760
than if you know we. 
I have people who have done that

423
00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:48,000
from Wisconsin and where I live.
It's completely flat all around 

424
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,760
and then you fly out and do this
downhill run. 

425
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,720
That's a bigger deal than the 
shoes you choose is being able 

426
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,200
to replicate it and just get 
your body used to that kind of 

427
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,040
pounding because yes you're 
running downhill. 

428
00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,440
You can go maybe a little bit 
quicker because it's you have 

429
00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:03,320
that momentum going with you, 
but it's a different kind of 

430
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,960
grind on your body. 
So I just make sure you prep 

431
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,040
that anterior chain. 
Any other thoughts from you? 

432
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:11,800
No, I think that's good. 
I mean, a lot of it, yeah. 

433
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:15,240
It's just literally like being 
used to running downhill, like 

434
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:17,320
that's, that's a lot of 
downhill. 

435
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,560
And just listen to your body 
like, as far as, like what 

436
00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:24,160
you're going to be feeling when 
you hit that fatigued point. 

437
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,880
Because the rate of fatigue 
might actually be higher on the 

438
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,080
muscular demand side of things 
then aerobically. 

439
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,680
So you might be feeling great, 
but then you hit mile 17 and 

440
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,560
your quad start screaming at 
you, right? 

441
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,000
So just find something that you 
can get into rhythm, stay 

442
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:43,000
comfortable, don't get greedy. 
Like, I don't think the shoe is 

443
00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,120
the biggest answer here. 
It's just literally like wear 

444
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:49,440
something you trust because that
is a pretty extreme environment.

445
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,440
Yep. 
And something that can lock you 

446
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,880
down well so that you're not 
buttoned forward into the front 

447
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,680
of your shoe that that would be.
Just make sure you got good 

448
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,880
lockdown. 
Cool. 

449
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,400
All right, our next question 
Rachel sends in a great workout.

450
00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,560
Question for for us here. 
So Rachel's a 27 year old 

451
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:11,000
female, been dealing with mild 
hip dysplasia in her left hip 

452
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,200
for about 5 years now. 
Previously ran at the collegiate

453
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,240
and briefly professional levels,
but the symptoms of instability 

454
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,040
make it very difficult to run at
all, let alone decently fast 

455
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,040
pace. 
Oddly enough I didn't get much 

456
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,720
pain in the hip, just a 
sensation of quote dragging my 

457
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:27,600
left leg and not having much 
control over that hip. 

458
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,560
Seen central PT. 
Several PTS without success and 

459
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,840
surgeons say it's too mild for 
surgery. 

460
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,080
Just wondering if you have any 
advice regarding exercise issues

461
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,280
or orthotics for stability and 
or efficiency or anything else 

462
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,000
that you think might be helpful 
that you've seen in patients 

463
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,240
with similar issues. 
I don't know if this is Tunisia 

464
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,240
topic for the POD, clearly not. 
We're reading it right now, but 

465
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,480
I thought it'd be worth a shot 
since you guys are always so 

466
00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:50,800
insightful. 
Well, it's super kind. 

467
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,840
So before I kick this to you 
David, just a little bit of 

468
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,680
context for what hip dysplasia 
is, if that's not something 

469
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,840
you're familiar with. 
Hip dysplasia happens at the 

470
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,240
ball and socket joint of the hip
and so there's the socket which 

471
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,520
is your acetabulum, then you 
have the ball which is the 

472
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:08,960
femoral head. 
What happens in hip dysplasia is

473
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,080
that you basically have a narrow
or a shallow socket. 

474
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,840
So there is less of the security
of the socket over the head of 

475
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,840
the femur again. 
And that leads to what she had 

476
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,440
referenced about that feelings 
of instability just because you 

477
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,880
don't have a nice kind of grab 
onto that femoral head. 

478
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,200
And so that's kind of the 
context of what we're walking 

479
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:30,640
into. 
There's different severities. 

480
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,600
Some are very, you know, very, 
very shallow and there are 

481
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,800
different surgical interventions
and then some are just managed 

482
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,560
conservatively. 
So David, I'll kick it over to 

483
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,200
you now. 
But that's just a little context

484
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,520
on what hip dysplasia is. 
Yeah, I think that's great. 

485
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,640
And when you have a true hip 
dysplasia, I mean, man, that can

486
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,200
be tough like you know from a 
clinical rehabilitative 

487
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,320
standpoint because hypermobility
is hypermobility. 

488
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:56,880
If that thing's moving around 
and it's not staying in like, I 

489
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,680
can't really change that, you 
know, like the structural 

490
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,640
standpoint. 
But what we can do is just try 

491
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,080
our best to work on stabilizing 
the range of motion that is 

492
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,440
available that it has. 
And I'll tell people a lot of 

493
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,360
times that like having 
hypermobility or having a larger

494
00:25:14,360 --> 00:25:17,520
range of motion at a given joint
isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

495
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:19,240
We just have to be able to 
control it. 

496
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,280
And if you can control that 
range of motion, you'll be able 

497
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,600
to do a lot more because a lot 
of times people can't control 

498
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,280
themselves through their full 
range of motion. 

499
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,240
And then now that femoral head 
is starting to just shift around

500
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,600
and do some funny things and it 
that's a lot of times that like 

501
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,200
catching feeling or that kind of
dragging like I'm imagining that

502
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,640
femoral head just kind of 
slightly shifting anteriorly 

503
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,640
like as that leg is behind most 
likely. 

504
00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:45,040
And then that's probably that 
dragging sensation of like oh I 

505
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,160
got to get this to advance 
forward. 

506
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:54,600
So I would and it's it's tough 
like I mean a lot of this is 

507
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,840
going to be a matter of comfort 
getting familiar on being one 

508
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:00,320
leg. 
So a lot of single leg 

509
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,800
activities working the hip in 
every range possible, and that 

510
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:09,160
includes flexion, extension, 
adduction, abduction, internal 

511
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,720
rotation, external rotation. 
I think a lot of people are 

512
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,400
quick to just give you some fire
hydrants and clamshells and say,

513
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,640
like, OK, that'll stabilize your
hip. 

514
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,000
And it's like, well, no, this 
thing is in, this thing's 

515
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,280
unstable at a joint level. 
So you have to like, do 

516
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,600
everything you can to keep that 
thing in the socket. 

517
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,320
It's like if someone dislocated 
their shoulder all the time, 

518
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,040
like you're not just going to 
give them external rotation 

519
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,680
exercises and send them home, 
right. 

520
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,560
So I I just think of it as like 
an inherent joint instability on

521
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,720
the inside and the actual 
skeletal things. 

522
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:40,880
Like I said, I can't change 
that. 

523
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,280
But all we we just got to do 
everything we can to build 

524
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,920
everything around it and then 
get it more and more specific as

525
00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,840
we're getting more comfortable 
on that single leg loading 

526
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,560
because ultimately running is a 
bunch of single leg jumps 

527
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:56,800
through a large range of motion.
I mean, especially like if 

528
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,280
you're trying to run fast that 
those legs are opening up in a 

529
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,920
pretty good amount of range. 
So you have to be able to 

530
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,560
control that. 
And to some degree, for all we 

531
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,720
know, maybe the dragging too is 
like you're going into hip 

532
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,320
extension and those hip flexors 
are having a hard time 

533
00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,440
eccentrically slowing it down 
and getting it back right. 

534
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,120
And so and there's so many 
different reasons for why those 

535
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,160
sensations can happen. 
But I think internally, at least

536
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:21,600
in my, from what I'm thinking, 
it sounds like there's just a 

537
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:23,480
little instability there. 
That femoral head might just be 

538
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,560
shifting around a little bit 
more and so just trying to lock 

539
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,720
that thing down as best we can. 
I know you've had like a history

540
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,960
with some hip stuff, so I would,
I'm very curious to hear your 

541
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,960
thoughts on. 
This no, I I agree with a lot of

542
00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:39,320
a lot of what you're saying and 
I think to Rachel in this case 

543
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,880
too like I do think hip 
dysplasia is one of those where 

544
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:46,480
like it's hard to walk through 
because it it is there's no like

545
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,880
cookie cutter way to walk 
forward through dealing with hip

546
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:53,640
dysplasia, you know and so just 
sorry that it's been tough so 

547
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,800
far and I hope you end up 
finding success with it. 

548
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,520
So some of the ways that I 
conceptualize this and I current

549
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,440
I I was just working before I 
switched my roles to being at 

550
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,080
the university. 
I was working with a high school

551
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,080
gal who had was recently 
diagnosed with hip dysplasia. 

552
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,720
So I'm going to talk about kind 
of our approach with with her. 

553
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,360
She was having a hard time for 
her senior year of of high 

554
00:28:14,360 --> 00:28:19,640
school. 
But I think the one of the 

555
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:22,040
things you can conceptualize is 
because you have that more 

556
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,040
shallow socket. 
The reality is that you don't 

557
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,480
get what we call static 
stability where just because of 

558
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,800
the existence of the bones on 
each other, they stabilize each 

559
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,120
other. 
And therefore, if you want 

560
00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:37,120
stability, it has to come from 
the muscles and therefore your 

561
00:28:37,120 --> 00:28:41,320
muscles are on or need would 
need to be on more often to 

562
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,320
contribute the same amount of 
stability that someone else 

563
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,760
would get from just the passive 
structures existing. 

564
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,880
So sometimes that could be why 
some of that dragging feeling 

565
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,880
comes because the muscles 
fatigue out very, very quickly 

566
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,680
because they're always on and 
providing a lot more stability 

567
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:58,520
than they might have to in other
scenarios. 

568
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,720
So ways that I approach this 
with runners is kind of 

569
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,600
consistent with what David was 
saying. 

570
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:10,760
But we'll start with really, 
really low level muscle 

571
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,200
isolating exercises for every 
motion, flexion, internal 

572
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,320
external rotation. 
And I'll have them in prone and 

573
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,640
I'll give them a theraband and 
they pull it One Direction and 

574
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,400
they're going to do like long 
isometric fatiguing holes. 

575
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,560
Like you're just going to be 
holding that until it fatigues 

576
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,720
and it can't do it anymore. 
Or like sets of you know, 15 to 

577
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,360
32nd holds just work on 
fatiguing that muscle out on 

578
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:35,040
like a postural level. 
So bringing a low level of it's 

579
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,920
not like super heavy bands, it's
bands and just like fatiguing 

580
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,080
things out for a long time and 
then eventually building those 

581
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,840
sort of fatiguing exercises out 
to the single leg work and 

582
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,000
adding some stability and 
dynamic stability elements with 

583
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,480
unstable surfaces. 
But it's, you know in it's 

584
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,480
varying levels of success, I'll 
be honest. 

585
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,640
But that's kind of the approach 
that I take and it will be one 

586
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:00,920
of those where we'll spend you 
know six weeks on kind of these 

587
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:05,040
low level long hold exercises, 
really build that foundation and

588
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,080
then just keep scaling up from 
there. 

589
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,760
I don't have personally, I don't
have hip dysplasia. 

590
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:15,680
I have a lot of like retro, I've
acetabular retroversion and then

591
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,320
I have some Bony like changes. 
And so some of these lower level

592
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,480
exercises have been helpful for 
me too, just because I need to 

593
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,320
control the range of motion and 
I have a limited range. 

594
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,840
I don't have hypermobility and 
so I just have to really control

595
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,120
it. 
And some of the similar 

596
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:32,560
exercises have helped for for me
as well. 

597
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,040
But that's kind of my approach 
early on. 

598
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:37,440
But again, that's not 
prescriptive. 

599
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,760
It's just one of the 
philosophies that I take with it

600
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,640
is how do we create the capacity
for long standing dynamic 

601
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,480
stability. 
And I think it starts with like 

602
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,360
postural control because when 
you're standing and when you're 

603
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,600
walking, you're stabilizing 
muscles are having to do more 

604
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,640
than mine are. 
So building those up as much as 

605
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,000
you can and then eventually 
building it to the point where 

606
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,920
you can jump, well, not 
fatiguing those muscles out so 

607
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,080
that it doesn't start that kind 
of dragging sensation on you and

608
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280
there, you know that's one 
philosophy of maybe how that or 

609
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,960
how or why that kind of dragging
sensation happens could be a 

610
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,840
fatigue related thing. 
But there's kind of my two cents

611
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,080
on on that whole topic. 
Any other thoughts on it, David 

612
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,880
or questions? 
No, I agree. 

613
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,200
I feel like we're, we're pretty 
in line there like that, Yeah. 

614
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,080
Cool, all right. 
Shifting directions here. 

615
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,840
Michael asked a question on 
midsoles and he says I've been 

616
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,280
thinking a lot about matching 
shoes to runners and their 

617
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,040
particular paces and efforts. 
In my mind there just has to be 

618
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:38,000
a way to prescribe the quote 
ideal midsole to fit somebody on

619
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:42,320
a on a few a few key factors 
that we may know like stride 

620
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,960
length, cadence and where they 
land with their foot in 

621
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,560
comparison to their body and 
know then therefore which shoes 

622
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,840
will work best for them. 
Basically finding the proper 

623
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,040
quote spring rate for their 
stride is a combination of the 

624
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,240
plate in the foam. 
I may be missing some 

625
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,720
characteristics or have chosen 
the wrong ones, but I'm 

626
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,520
wondering if you all have put 
your heads together on this, if 

627
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,800
there's a better way than quote 
running a super expensive shoe 

628
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,080
and just see how it works. 
I think it's super interesting 

629
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,880
question. 
So what are your What are your 

630
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,640
thoughts here? 
Oh man, that's a loaded one. 

631
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:20,080
That is like it's so interesting
and it's so hard to quantify 

632
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,040
these things, right. 
I mean like sure, can we get 

633
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:26,000
some data from like a from like 
a band or like a sensors or 

634
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,320
whatever like sure. 
But like it's hard to tune it to

635
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,000
the person specifically and be 
like, OK, so this, this and this

636
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,200
based on this, this is the issue
for you, right outside of 

637
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,480
getting some kind of economy or 
something data out of it, which 

638
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,120
is kind of the try it on and 
see, right. 

639
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,840
Like except you're in a lab 
setting and now you're running 

640
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,720
miles in all of them. 
But I think there is something 

641
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:53,200
to be said for bio mechanics and
how people run. 

642
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,960
And I think there are within the
gate cycle people do use 

643
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,120
different kinds of strategies on
how they move and how they 

644
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,720
create the torque and how they 
run. 

645
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,320
So I think the way you would go 
forward with this is you would 

646
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:13,240
essentially have to take one of 
these variables and then and 

647
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,280
then test it up against, I don't
know, let's just say 5 shoes and

648
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,000
then just measure it on each one
of them, you know, OK, so your 

649
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,000
stride length have some neutral 
base go and now we're now we're 

650
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:30,720
doing a pilot study. 
This is happening OK now, but 

651
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,200
essentially like, OK, so now 
we're going to look at the 

652
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,600
stride rate for all five of 
these shoes and then match it 

653
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,400
up, go do some other kind of 
effort, come back, match it up 

654
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,960
again and like keep going and 
getting the data and then see 

655
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,880
how that affects time and 
loading pressures and things 

656
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:49,080
like that. 
And you just kind of have to go 

657
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:50,840
one by one, I feel like on these
variables. 

658
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,400
And it's so hard to do that to 
like quantity to like really 

659
00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:56,440
quantify that and know for a 
given person. 

660
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,240
Like you would have to basically
run that study 3/4 times on each

661
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,360
variable and then compare the 
data across all of them, you 

662
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,240
know, and it's like I don't know
if the juice is completely worth

663
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:11,440
the squeeze there, but but 
economy is probably the the 

664
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,239
safest one there and probably 
the quickest one. 

665
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:17,639
But yeah, I mean, it's such an 
interesting question. 

666
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:21,920
Like, it's like I. 
I think my brain goes to so many

667
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,320
things. 
One is I'm assuming that by like

668
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,199
matching the shoe to find their 
ideal. 

669
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:28,400
Ideal means that it makes them 
the most efficient. 

670
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,159
Like you're going to find the 
shoe that makes you the most 

671
00:34:30,159 --> 00:34:31,480
efficient runner that you can 
be. 

672
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,360
Maybe he means the the one 
that's going to cause you the 

673
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,480
least amount of injuries. 
I don't know exactly, but I'm 

674
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:40,000
assuming running economy. 
I think the people that would be

675
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,000
actually really interesting to 
ask this question to are Dustin 

676
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,520
Jobert, Jeff Burns, Walter 
Hoogamer, Ben Oneg. 

677
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,480
People who test super shoes on a
myriad of types of runners. 

678
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,760
Because when you do a study, 
likely they are capturing a lot 

679
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,880
more data than is reported in 
the studies and they're looking 

680
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:03,480
for these correlations. 
And I I just think it ends up 

681
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,800
being more complex that we can't
find that silver bullet kind of,

682
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,280
I don't know that's that silver 
bullet parameter or running 

683
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,680
characteristic that really 
matches like you said, you'd 

684
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:18,080
have to like cross check all of 
them to see which one is 

685
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,080
actually the 1 causing the the 
change. 

686
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,200
And just I think that there are 
are too many interactions 

687
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:28,200
between characteristics that are
hard to pin down. 

688
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,840
So like somebody who lands with 
a rear foot strike 32 

689
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,960
centimeters in front of their 
body with 23° of knee flexion 

690
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:42,280
might have like 40% less 
strength output in their quads 

691
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,680
than someone else who lands in 
the exact same spot. 

692
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,120
So therefore their mechanics as 
they go through change a ton. 

693
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:51,560
So I just think there are so 
many interactions that it makes 

694
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,960
it hard to pin down a specific 
thing which is why I think that 

695
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,840
if you have the capacity, which 
again capacity and availability 

696
00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:02,520
of an individual test for this 
stuff and you really care that 

697
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,200
much, that would probably be 
your way to go. 

698
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,760
So go hang out with Dustin in 
his endurance lab down in 

699
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,960
Austin, you know like you could 
go get that all tested. 

700
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,000
But the on the other side, I 
think that there are some people

701
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,720
who think they may have found 
some stuff. 

702
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:19,240
So you have companies coming out
with multiple types of super 

703
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:21,040
shoes. 
I think that was most obvious 

704
00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:24,400
when ASICS came out with the 
meta speed sky and the meta 

705
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:27,920
speed edge. 
They even coined them as this is

706
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,720
our you know one for cadence 
runners and this is one for our 

707
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:33,160
stride runners. 
So they were looking at metrics 

708
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:37,000
based on how people chose to run
at different speeds and and 

709
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,600
they're like be if you choose 
this strategy to increase your 

710
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,480
running speed you would be more 
appropriate for this shoe. 

711
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,080
If you choose this other one, 
then you would choose this shoe.

712
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,880
You see Puma, they have their 
Deviate Nitro Elite and they 

713
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:54,280
have their Fast R So I think 
there's so many companies that 

714
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,040
are starting to have two. 
Hoka has theirs, Saucony has 

715
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,080
theirs. 
I think that they also have 

716
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:01,640
noticed things with their 
athletes where it's like these 

717
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,360
athletes are going to going to 
probably benefit more from this 

718
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,120
one, whereas these are going to 
benefit more here. 

719
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,680
Nike obviously has theirs too. 
So I think that there's 

720
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:14,560
something there. 
I think that being clinicians we

721
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:17,440
work with individuals, we don't 
work with aggregate. 

722
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,040
Matt is now doing research. 
So he and and I'm doing research

723
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,040
too but mine is in like I'm I'm 
doing research in rural health. 

724
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,440
So I'm not I'm not doing 
research with runners. 

725
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,080
But I think that you know we 
work with individuals, we don't 

726
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:36,000
work with aggregate. 
And so when we see trends, there

727
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,280
are ends of one every single 
time. 

728
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:42,640
And I think from my perspective 
those ends of one make me even 

729
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,280
more convinced that we're not 
going to find these three 

730
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,120
characteristics that we could 
say these these three things 

731
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,480
would match this this person 
exactly. 

732
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,840
That said, if somebody is really
like pounding their heel and 

733
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,400
over striding, I don't think 
they'd get on with the the 

734
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,480
Rocket X2 as much as they would 
with this Yellow X1 just because

735
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,040
of like my experience with 
dipping down into the heel and 

736
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,360
really going to that negative 
drop sensation. 

737
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:08,240
So there might be little things 
like that, but I think it's so 

738
00:38:08,240 --> 00:38:11,440
hard to apply and to measure 
them across people. 

739
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,160
So that's I just babbled for a 
long time. 

740
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,640
But I think this is super 
interesting question and I think

741
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,280
we talk about it a lot, but I 
think every time we've talked 

742
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,080
about it, we've come back to 
this is a lot more complex than 

743
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:25,680
we know. 
And I think that some of the 

744
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,480
metrics that might actually be 
the most helpful aren't easily 

745
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,880
measured, which might be like 
vibration rate of your tendon or

746
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,480
something like that. 
Any other thoughts on it? 

747
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:37,600
Yeah. 
And then that's a whole field in

748
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:42,880
and of itself is vibration and 
that's like totally, yeah. 

749
00:38:43,720 --> 00:38:48,480
So yeah, no, I I I agree. 
I think it it's just it's a very

750
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:52,400
complex answer and I wish that 
we could simplify it more, but I

751
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,800
don't know if we have the data 
or I I just don't think we have 

752
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,080
enough to do that. 
I agree. 

753
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:04,120
Great question Michael. 
Thanks for sending that in. 

754
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,920
And I know it's something that 
we'll keep thinking about and 

755
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,840
maybe someday we will contribute
to some research that can try to

756
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,120
pinpoint this stuff. 
I know you know I think I I love

757
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:17,560
clinical research to the ones 
that are done with technology 

758
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,480
that's available in the clinic. 
But a lot of times that stuff 

759
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,400
has to be fed by some kind of 
higher tech driven studies. 

760
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,440
So we'll see where things go, 
but super interesting. 

761
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,680
OK, We've got another question 
about resources for people who 

762
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:36,040
are new to run retail. 
This person is working in a 

763
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:40,360
sports retail store. 
They sell Brooks Scott shoes and

764
00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:43,520
they're this is a new world for 
for them and a colleague of 

765
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,280
theirs. 
And they're basically asking, 

766
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,000
you know, we know that we have 
to learn all the specs of shoes 

767
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,640
and all that kind of details. 
But another is bio mechanics and

768
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,800
how do you understand or 
translate a person's movement 

769
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:56,520
patterns? 
So they're basically asking, can

770
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,920
you suggest reliable resources, 
online books, courses, etc. 

771
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:03,240
About running gate or bio 
mechanics, where to start some 

772
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,720
important and what's our opinion
on that? 

773
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:08,440
So I have a couple. 
Do you want me to go first or do

774
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:11,000
you have some in your head too? 
No, go for it, Yeah. 

775
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,960
OK. 
I think in terms of online 

776
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,920
resources, these are some that 
are geared towards kind of 

777
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,680
healthcare professionals. 
So it's a little bit, I think 

778
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:27,080
that the bio mechanics knowledge
would be a little bit beyond and

779
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:28,880
might have a lot of translation 
issues. 

780
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,640
It's just the types of language 
that they use. 

781
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,720
If you don't have a background 
in some some medical stuff But 

782
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:37,880
if you're eager to learn and 
willing to take the time to like

783
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,680
learn what all these different 
terms mean, there's an 

784
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,520
organization we've had their 
founder on here Doug Adams with 

785
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,520
run DNA. 
They have an A series of online 

786
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,840
courses that there's like a 
certified gate analysis level 

787
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,920
one and level 2. 
And then they also have an 

788
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,680
essential elements of running 
which is a free course. 

789
00:40:57,200 --> 00:41:00,160
So I would check out their 
website because I I went through

790
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:04,160
those courses later in my career
and I did did find that they 

791
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:05,960
would be a really nice place to 
start. 

792
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,960
If you've never kind of thought 
about bio mechanics, but you 

793
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,240
were a physical therapist who 
wanted to get into running, I 

794
00:41:11,240 --> 00:41:12,600
thought they were a great 
starting point. 

795
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:16,360
That said that they kind of 
assume a level of knowledge of a

796
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,120
kind of like starting physical 
therapist. 

797
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,800
So there might be some things 
that are difficult, but at the 

798
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,320
same time they have a free 
course you could figure out kind

799
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,760
of do you vibe and understand 
what they're talking about, the 

800
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,200
essential elements of running 
course. 

801
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,680
Then you can move forward in 
that. 

802
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:35,240
There are also some really nice 
yearly kind of running courses 

803
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:39,360
that you could go to in person. 
Again, these are going to be led

804
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,480
by people who are kind of 
leading the research in the 

805
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,360
running sphere. 
So Brian Heiderscheit out of UW 

806
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:48,080
Madison, Irene Davis usually 
goes, Chris Powers is there, 

807
00:41:48,720 --> 00:41:51,680
sometimes Rich Willie who we've 
had on this podcast, but one of 

808
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,440
them is the Running Summit, 
which happens out in Provo, UT. 

809
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,040
I think it's in Utah. 
I just don't know if it's Provo 

810
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:00,040
and it's a weekend long course 
where they kind of talk about 

811
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,080
the most recent things in 
running injuries and kind of 

812
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,200
have some really helpful 
resources on mechanics there as 

813
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,520
well. 
And then if you're really, this 

814
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:12,920
is kind of more for like new 
PTS. 

815
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,600
But the course that I am, this 
is where I met Matt Klein. 

816
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,360
But this is the course that I 
think gave me such a foundation 

817
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:21,280
of understanding bio mechanics. 
It's a six month certification 

818
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,600
course at the Movement 
Performance Institute in Los 

819
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,440
Angeles and it's ran by Chris 
Powers. 

820
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,120
But you go out to LA once a 
month for six months and you'd 

821
00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,080
spend the whole weekend there 
and it's called the lower 

822
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,000
extremity or integrating 
technology into practice, lower 

823
00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:39,600
extremity bio mechanics. 
And so check out the Movement 

824
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,160
Performance Institute, that's 
like, hey, I really want to 

825
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,640
invest in my ability to 
understand bio mechanics. 

826
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,480
That's where I would go, 
fantastic course, I would do it 

827
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,160
over and over and over again 
because I thought it was really,

828
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:53,640
really well done. 
So those are, those are some 

829
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:57,080
options. 
But again, those are more for 

830
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,160
like, hey, I'm APT wanting to 
get into running, but David, do 

831
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,440
you have any? 
Yeah, it's tough, right? 

832
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,480
Like most of the resources that 
I can think of are probably more

833
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:09,680
gonna be geared towards physical
therapists. 

834
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,960
There was, and I can't remember 
the name of it for the life of 

835
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:14,080
me. 
I'm like looking over at my 

836
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:17,400
bookshelf there and I I don't 
see it, but there's a like a 

837
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,680
brief little handout, 
specifically on Gate. 

838
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,320
It's a published book that is 
technically a textbook, but it's

839
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,560
it's really short and it kind of
goes through things and it kind 

840
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:28,360
of hits the broad strokes of 
everything. 

841
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,400
And it's a good resource. 
I'll have to get the name of it 

842
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,440
and we'll have to get in the 
podcast notes later, but it's a 

843
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:37,360
solid one. 
It's a kind of a quick, I mean 

844
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:38,760
quick and dirty is not the word 
for it. 

845
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,920
It's it's a very in detail. 
It's just like, but it's like 

846
00:43:42,920 --> 00:43:44,960
the need to know stuff. 
You know, where it just like 

847
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,760
breaks it down and it's very, 
very quick and it's probably 

848
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,080
more than you need, right? 
It's talking about like angles 

849
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,920
of like the hip and the ankle 
and the knee and like stuff like

850
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:54,320
that. 
But it it at least gives you 

851
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:57,560
some things to look for. 
There's also an Instagram 

852
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,520
account, I think it's called 
Gate Happens and they kind of do

853
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,480
a couple different examples, 
whether it's walking. 

854
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:06,080
I haven't actually been 
following them too long. 

855
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:08,400
They just stumbled into my feed 
recently, but they have some 

856
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,520
pretty good stuff on there. 
I got to go do a deep dive. 

857
00:44:11,240 --> 00:44:13,560
Yeah. 
But there's there's some stuff 

858
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,240
out there. 
I mean I you look up the word 

859
00:44:15,240 --> 00:44:18,680
gate and you'll find stuff 
walking gate, running gate, 

860
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:20,600
there'll be some good stuff out 
there. 

861
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:22,600
It's something that people have 
been looking at for a while. 

862
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,240
And then there's also like, I 
mean if you are a clinician like

863
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:29,400
and you have like Medbridge, 
there's courses like I think 

864
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,960
Jada Sherry has one on gate and 
I think. 

865
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:34,800
So I was going to bring. 
Up his book. 

866
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,520
Jada Sherry, he has one called 
Anatomy for Runners, and I think

867
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,600
that that's kind of like a 
foundational it would be. 

868
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,040
I think it's written in a way 
that a lot of people could have 

869
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,480
access to it and understand what
he's talking about. 

870
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:48,640
Yeah. 
So like there's things out 

871
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:50,520
there. 
It's just, it's tough because so

872
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,640
much of it is geared toward 
clinicians. 

873
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,520
But yeah, broad strokes. 
I mean, I would just kind of 

874
00:44:57,520 --> 00:44:59,560
look around, You could do some 
basic searches. 

875
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,800
I'm sure there's something would
come up. 

876
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:06,040
Yeah, and this is where Bach is 
our our media manager. 

877
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,640
Bach is probably like This is 
why we have to create our guide 

878
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,320
and like our education for 
running through stores. 

879
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,040
This is our thing. 
We need to do it. 

880
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,480
Yeah, we should do this. 
So, hey, maybe, maybe this will 

881
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,480
be the kick in our pants to 
actually put some stuff out 

882
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,600
there for stores to be able to 
use. 

883
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:29,640
Totally, yeah. 
So relief, Yeah, I think you put

884
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:32,440
this in here to catch us on the 
spot, realizing we needed to 

885
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:35,280
actually do what he says. 
All right, let's move forward. 

886
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,760
So Russell asks. 
I was wondering if you have any 

887
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:41,440
info on running cadence. 
I'm a taller runner, 6 foot 4 

888
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,960
inches, and have tried drills 
running with a metronome, 

889
00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:47,800
changing foot strike, and I 
don't think I'm over striding, 

890
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:50,880
but nothing seems to increase 
cadence for the long haul. 

891
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:52,480
Is this something I should worry
about? 

892
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:58,320
I'm usually 158 ish on an easy 
run, so first to find cadence, 

893
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:00,800
bring everyone up to speed on 
like what that means, and then 

894
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,880
let's go from there. 
Yeah. 

895
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,840
So a cadence usually referred to
in steps per minute, like how 

896
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,800
many times you're striking the 
ground in a given amount of 

897
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,080
time. 
So you can think of the cadence 

898
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:14,600
like a faster cadence is going 
to look a little bit quicker 

899
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,360
like a wheel. 
And then like a slower cadence 

900
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,800
might look a little bit more 
loopy and kind of longer flowy 

901
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,200
strides, not necessarily longer,
I guess, but just slower moving 

902
00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:29,640
strides. 
There's this notion out there 

903
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,880
that people think that there's 
this like 180 steps per minute 

904
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:37,120
that you have to hit. 
You don't have to hit that. 

905
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:40,440
I'm sorry, like this. 
Everyone has their own like 

906
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:44,400
biologic cadence that they like 
to run at. 

907
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,280
And truth be told, I mean, it's 
not just cadence, right? 

908
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,840
You have stride length, You have
how much power like and then 

909
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:51,720
like the pace you're running 
does change. 

910
00:46:51,720 --> 00:46:54,680
Your foot straight does change. 
Some people do pick up the 

911
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,560
cadence when the speed's faster.
Some people slow it down when 

912
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,760
it's not uphill, downhill. 
There's so many variables that 

913
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,840
go into it. 
I don't think I would worry 

914
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,040
about it. 
The whole idea originally was 

915
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,000
like, oh, if you're at 180 steps
and then they base it off of 

916
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:11,200
like a mile, right? 
Like like 4 minute mile 

917
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,120
essentially. 
And it's like if you get 180 

918
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,520
steps in a 62nd lap essentially.
And it's like that shouldn't be 

919
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,840
the basis for someone going and 
running a marathon. 

920
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,840
They did some like. 
They did like a what's the 

921
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,720
average? 
I think it was a like a 

922
00:47:25,720 --> 00:47:28,880
observational study of like 
what's the average cadence for 

923
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,920
the elite runners at a 10K And 
it was like 180 like at a world 

924
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,520
class like event. 
It's like is that really what we

925
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,200
need to be shooting for is you 
know, yes, 180 is no magic. 

926
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,240
Sorry, keep going. 
Yeah. 

927
00:47:43,240 --> 00:47:46,360
And it's just, yeah, I mean, 
everyone's so different. 

928
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,600
And I think when I look at a 
runner, I think a beautiful 

929
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,360
example of this is someone like 
Kenanisa Bekele. 

930
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,360
Where like. 
You love the. 

931
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,680
I'm a big Bekele fan, man, I But
you look at someone and how he 

932
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,760
runs like, his stride does 
change. 

933
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:06,600
His cadence does change, like 
depending on where he is in a 

934
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,880
race, it could be the same exact
race. 

935
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:11,800
The distance hasn't changed and 
whether he's surging or not 

936
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,280
surging, dying, not dying, you 
know, like, I mean, he doesn't 

937
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,760
usually die very hard. 
Maybe it's usually one of the 

938
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:23,000
top people in the world, but 
like, but it just shows like the

939
00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:25,880
I don't think the cadence 
matters as much as people give 

940
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:27,720
it credit for it. 
And that might just be my hot 

941
00:48:27,720 --> 00:48:31,480
take there. 
I've seen plenty of people have 

942
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:35,560
slower cadences and have very 
powerful strides and run very 

943
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,000
well so. 
Yeah, it's good. 

944
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,160
I would be. 
I mentioned this name earlier, 

945
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:45,520
but one of the the, the leading 
researcher on running cadence is

946
00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:47,800
Brian Heidersheit. 
He's at UW Madison. 

947
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,240
That's kind of what he is like 
dedicated his lab to studying. 

948
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,960
And just because you study 
something doesn't mean you think

949
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:55,600
it's the silver bullet for 
everyone. 

950
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,320
I think that's important. 
And so actually it reminds me, 

951
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,440
I've been wanting to reach out 
to him to get him on the podcast

952
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:04,440
because I think him talking 
about Cadence would be super 

953
00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:06,600
enlightening for all of us to 
see. 

954
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,800
Like the person who's producing 
the research that everyone uses 

955
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:13,640
to like talk about Cadence. 
It'd be it'd be super cool to 

956
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,600
hear his perspective and I've 
heard him speak before and just 

957
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,440
he's really articulate and does 
a good job explaining things 

958
00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,880
anyway, some of the stuff that 
comes out of his research that 

959
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:27,360
is not his is not attached to 
that 180 is this gold standard. 

960
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,320
He bucks against that. 
What he does is his studies 

961
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,520
basically look at Renner's 
chosen cadence and compares 

962
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:38,680
metrics between that and how 
those metrics change at 5% more 

963
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:42,000
than their chosen cadence and 
10% more than their chosen 

964
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,280
cadence. 
And So what he's found with 

965
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,640
those studies is, is myriads of 
things, but ultimately total 

966
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:53,280
workload goes down with cadence 
that is 5 or 10% greater than 

967
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,720
your self selected cadence. 
The total Patella, femoral 

968
00:49:56,720 --> 00:50:00,680
stress and and compression 
stress goes down when you 

969
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,040
increase your cadence 5 to 10% 
from your starting cadence. 

970
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,000
That's the kind of stuff that 
he's finding. 

971
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,480
Overall workload is going down 
and that's why there's sometimes

972
00:50:09,720 --> 00:50:13,560
a push and you'll see this on 
social media. 

973
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,640
And I think it's not necessarily
helpful. 

974
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:17,880
It's a push on social media, 
say, hey, get your cadence up 

975
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:19,360
because you're going to get all 
these benefits. 

976
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,440
You only really need those 
benefits in my mind, if you need

977
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,200
those benefits. 
And so somebody is going to be 

978
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,320
able to handle a cadence that 
might be like yourself, might be

979
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:30,840
a bit lower, even though that 
someone else might not be able 

980
00:50:30,840 --> 00:50:33,400
to handle the loading that's 
coming down the pipeline for 

981
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:35,200
them. 
If you have been running that 

982
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,480
way your entire life, your body 
has probably started adapting to

983
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,000
the cadence number that you've 
ran at for your entire life. 

984
00:50:42,280 --> 00:50:45,800
And therefore you may not need 
those changes in the amount of 

985
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,600
stress going through your body. 
That said, if you end up like, 

986
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:51,960
oh, now I'm going to go train 
for a marathon or a 50K or 100K 

987
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:54,120
or something, then you might 
consider, hey, how could I 

988
00:50:54,120 --> 00:50:55,920
minimize the amount of stress on
my body. 

989
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,520
This could be one way to do it. 
I know you've tried some 

990
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:01,480
strategies with metronome and 
stuff. 

991
00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,160
There are actually studies on 
trying to change your cadence 

992
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,400
and using a metronome over a 
certain regimented period of 

993
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,440
time that has been shown to show
over like 80% compliance in 

994
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,480
terms of like your brain 
switching you're running to kind

995
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:21,440
of the new selected cadence. 
But that said, I don't know 

996
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:24,360
necessarily know if it's for 
you, if it's necessarily needed.

997
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,200
As we've kind of mentioned, I 
think it's going to depend on a 

998
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,200
lot of different factors and if 
you really need to decrease the 

999
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,920
amount of stress on your body. 
That said as well, when you're 

1000
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,320
doing an easy run, your cadence 
will likely drop down. 

1001
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:41,200
Some people have very large 
fluctuations, fluctuations in 

1002
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,920
their cadence if you're running 
slower versus running faster. 

1003
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,240
And so that would be a typical 
thing to find that your cadence 

1004
00:51:47,240 --> 00:51:49,560
drops when you're doing an easy 
run versus a workout. 

1005
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:55,600
So I I will say the there's 
another study out there in young

1006
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,400
people, so I don't know how old 
you are writing this question, 

1007
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:03,960
but in adolescence, there's a 
significant increase in stress 

1008
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,640
fractures in people who have a 
cadence less than 158 than those

1009
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:09,720
who had a cadence higher than 
171. 

1010
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:14,000
It was like a 50% increase in 
stress fracture risk for for 

1011
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:16,720
that population. 
So I don't know if you fit in 

1012
00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,640
that category, in which case we 
would, you know, maybe talk 

1013
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:22,320
about it a little bit more 
because that could be one factor

1014
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:23,920
to kind of mitigate some of that
risk. 

1015
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:27,400
But honestly you've probably 
adapted to this if you've been 

1016
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,440
running for a long time and it's
not something that that sticks 

1017
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:34,640
out to me. 
But I do think cadence when you 

1018
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,400
do start having injuries, if 
you're going to gate retrain, 

1019
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:41,760
it's a very low risk gate 
retraining option because most 

1020
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,400
of the changes decrease the 
amount of demand on your body 

1021
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,720
pretty much anywhere across the 
board. 

1022
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,160
Right. 
And it also just kind of teaches

1023
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,680
you to be lighter on your feet 
as well, I think speaks volumes 

1024
00:52:52,680 --> 00:52:54,760
there. 
I was just pulling up my long 

1025
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,840
run today because I was just 
curious to see myself because I 

1026
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,760
honestly don't really pay 
attention to cadence ever. 

1027
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:06,840
I think it's usually in the one 
70s, but so today's long run 

1028
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:11,960
essentially was 30 minutes easy 
and then 60 minutes at like a 

1029
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:15,440
steady fast pace and then kind 
of a cool down. 

1030
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,920
Looks like average was 176 Max 
2O6. 

1031
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,520
That was that was probably a 
downhill. 

1032
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:28,120
That was probably a downhill. 
Let me see here. 

1033
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,480
OK, so looking in the 1st 30 
minutes here, I'm just kind of 

1034
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,840
scrubbing across here. 
So we're looking at mostly 170 

1035
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:41,280
ish and then now we're past the 
30 and now we're running faster.

1036
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:44,760
OK. 
I actually stay pretty similar. 

1037
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,440
I I went up a little bit, but I 
didn't really pick up much. 

1038
00:53:48,440 --> 00:53:50,640
But I guess that's still a 
pretty controlled pace for me. 

1039
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,320
That's not really like a race 
pace. 

1040
00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,160
I was right. 
Yeah, I was just curious. 

1041
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:56,960
Yeah, I don't know. 
Live on the air there. 

1042
00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,920
Look at some data. 
There we go. 

1043
00:54:02,720 --> 00:54:06,640
So I I feel like there isn't a 
nice concise answer for for you,

1044
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:10,040
Russell, but I think that 
there's a chance that you're you

1045
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,600
don't need to overthink it if 
you are starting to. 

1046
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:16,800
If you have recurrent injuries 
and stuff, talking to a physio 

1047
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:20,080
who could guide you like a 
running PT that could guide you 

1048
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,600
through some of these changes 
that could be beneficial and 

1049
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:27,560
giving you a regimented way to 
learn just just a This is down a

1050
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,280
mini rabbit hole too. 
But learning new motor tasks is 

1051
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:33,960
challenging. 
Like it's not easy for our brain

1052
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:36,560
to learn a new way of doing 
something, particularly when 

1053
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,960
it's a continuous task. 
So what a continuous task is, is

1054
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,280
something like running, where 
there is no discrete start and 

1055
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,080
stop swinging. 
A baseball bat it does is a 

1056
00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,240
discrete task. 
You start with a year, you swing

1057
00:54:47,240 --> 00:54:49,880
through follow through and the 
task is done and you canmore 

1058
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,240
easily make changes to those 
discrete tasks. 

1059
00:54:52,560 --> 00:54:55,040
Whereas when you do something 
like running or walking or 

1060
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:58,600
swimming, there's a your a part 
of your brain that basically 

1061
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:04,720
activates and says run pattern 
and you just go run and be able 

1062
00:55:04,720 --> 00:55:07,600
to be able to change that and 
have it change the actual 

1063
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,880
pattern of that, that that part 
of your brain is very difficult.

1064
00:55:11,120 --> 00:55:15,720
So there are ways to regiment 
gait retraining to help promote 

1065
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:18,280
the brain changes that need to 
happen for that pattern. 

1066
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:21,680
So it's probably a good idea if 
you do want to change your gait,

1067
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:23,840
to have it guided by somebody 
who understands those 

1068
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,720
principles. 
So that's just a little little 

1069
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,440
rabbit hole and side tangent 
that I thought was worth going 

1070
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,160
on. 
But we should move on. 

1071
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:33,760
We have two more questions and 
we're going to try to hit them 

1072
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,280
both. 
Thomas sends in a question about

1073
00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,200
a popular Saucony series. 
Now that Saucony is getting rid 

1074
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,560
of the endorphin shift, what 
would be a good replacement for 

1075
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,720
that shoe between a three and 
5mm drop? 

1076
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:52,400
I find, oh, I find Hocus to be a
little bit too cushy. 

1077
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,640
That said, I primarily primarily
run between 5 and 15 miles every

1078
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:03,320
two or three days. 
Good replacement for this shoe. 

1079
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:07,160
Yeah, I mean, I was going to say
the Kinvara Pro probably. 

1080
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:10,720
I mean it's kind of a similar 
ASK build, the only thing is I 

1081
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:13,160
didn't catch was the drop ratio 
on that question. 

1082
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,000
That's a little bit higher. 
Drop that's a little bit higher,

1083
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:15,800
right. 
Yeah. 

1084
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:21,720
So it's three to five to. 
So I would that's a good 

1085
00:56:21,720 --> 00:56:25,680
question. 
But I would say this like just 

1086
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:26,960
like doesn't. 
Matter as much? 

1087
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:28,960
Yeah. 
Yes, that's I think that's my 

1088
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:32,320
point is like a shoe like we've 
talked about the on this show 

1089
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,280
before, drop is the difference 
between the static measurement 

1090
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:38,240
of the foam and the heel 
compared to the foam in the 

1091
00:56:38,240 --> 00:56:40,240
forefoot. 
When we're running, we're 

1092
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:43,440
loading that foam. 
So drop is this dynamic thing 

1093
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:44,960
and it depends on how you load 
the shoe. 

1094
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:49,720
There's a lot of soft foam 
inside of the Kinvara Pro, so 

1095
00:56:49,720 --> 00:56:53,160
that heel is compressing plus 
you have a rocker built onto it 

1096
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:58,120
and so that rocker plus the foam
compression, it runs like it 

1097
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,480
doesn't run like a high or even 
a mid drop shoe. 

1098
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:05,040
It just it it feels like it's 
not really a factor in the shoe 

1099
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,160
itself. 
So I I agree with you that can 

1100
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,360
talk about why the Canvara Pro I
guess in this scenario. 

1101
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,480
Yeah. 
I mean, it's essentially it's a 

1102
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,880
similar profile where you have a
wider base, you have kind of a 

1103
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,240
sharper toe spring up front. 
It's kind of like one of those 

1104
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,360
shoes where you're kind of 
constantly in this little like 

1105
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:26,560
gentle rolling motion. 
Another shoe that comes to mind 

1106
00:57:26,560 --> 00:57:31,880
as well would be the, we had 
said it earlier, but the A6 

1107
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,040
glide ride, that's a little bit 
more dramatic. 

1108
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,120
Yeah, it's it's, it's definitely
a little bit more dramatic, but 

1109
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:38,960
it does give you a similar feel 
there. 

1110
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:43,640
And then I also think of some of
the on models as well. 

1111
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:47,920
The cloud flows a little bit 
lower, so that would it wouldn't

1112
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:49,760
be quite a similar of an 
experience there, but the 

1113
00:57:49,760 --> 00:57:53,720
forfeits a similar experience. 
Cloud monster. 

1114
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,640
Adidas Boston 12 will give you a
little bit of that kind of a 

1115
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,480
feeling up front as well. 
I think it's really looking at 

1116
00:58:00,480 --> 00:58:02,840
the experience of the shoe. 
So kind of a wider base and a 

1117
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:06,440
sharper toe spring up front is 
kind of what I'm picturing as 

1118
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:08,480
far as your shift replacement 
there. 

1119
00:58:08,480 --> 00:58:10,680
But I think the CONVAR Pro is 
worth to go there. 

1120
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:12,600
It doesn't. 
That seems like a pretty natural

1121
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,520
transition to me. 
Yep, I was going to say the same

1122
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,360
and I was going to bring up the 
Glide Ride 3. 

1123
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,120
The only thing I think that's a 
6mm drop, and then the only 

1124
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,160
thing with that one is that 
there is more of a toe spring in

1125
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:27,160
that shoe. 
So Toe Spring is is where the 

1126
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,080
actual platform where your foot 
rests kind of curves up, whereas

1127
00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:31,920
rocker is like built into the 
midsole. 

1128
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:36,400
So if you're sensitive to 
rockers, Glide Ride 3 might not 

1129
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:38,880
be your top option, but if 
that's not a problem, that would

1130
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,640
be one that I would consider. 
I also think that another one 

1131
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:47,400
that isn't as low drop as you're
thinking is the Nimbus 26. 

1132
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,480
It has a bit of a rocker to it, 
runs a little bit, you know, 

1133
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:53,520
stiffer in the forefoot and it 
firmed up compared to the 25. 

1134
00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:57,840
So I know that for Hocus, those 
kind of felt too cushy for you. 

1135
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,640
So that one is running a little 
bit firmer now in comparison to 

1136
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:07,800
what it was in the past. 
Another one that I don't think 

1137
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:12,560
it definitely doesn't feel 
categorically the same, but when

1138
00:59:12,560 --> 00:59:16,040
I was thinking about non cushy 
shoes my my mind went to the 

1139
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,760
Hyperion Max and it. 
Is a little bit. 

1140
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:22,000
Stiffer and it's got a rocker, 
it's just a little bit lower it.

1141
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,120
It's just it's not the same as 
the shift. 

1142
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:27,480
Like it doesn't have that, like 
structured cushioning like the 

1143
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,320
shift has, but I think that. 
There's some, there's some 

1144
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,440
parallels there. 
There's some parallels there. 

1145
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,000
It's not as far of a stretch as 
you think. 

1146
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:37,920
In my head, yeah. 
I I I feel like it can still 

1147
00:59:37,920 --> 00:59:39,360
line up there. 
Cool. 

1148
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:42,200
All right. 
Our final question for the night

1149
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:46,600
is from our very own BJ, our 
very own Casper, our very own 

1150
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,640
audio engineer. 
And he's asking us if you could 

1151
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,800
build a three or four shoe 
rotation from 1 brand, what 

1152
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,320
brand would you pick and what 
shoes would you select? 

1153
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,960
BJ. 
Why you putting these 

1154
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,560
parameters? 
On US, OK. 

1155
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,800
So you have to choose one 
company, you have to go three to

1156
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,640
four shoes. 
So you're basically looking at a

1157
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,320
sponsorship then who's your, 
who's your company, right, Like.

1158
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:18,800
Yeah, that's a good way to think
about it. 

1159
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,560
You're sponsored. 
Man, that is so tough. 

1160
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:27,160
So for me, because I do race 
semi frequently, they have to 

1161
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,520
have a racing shoe that agrees 
with me and then because I run a

1162
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:32,560
lot, they have to have a 
training shoe that agrees with 

1163
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,280
me. 
So that's kind of what I'm 

1164
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,280
thinking 1st and then a training
companion somewhere in the 

1165
01:00:37,280 --> 01:00:40,280
middle. 
So basically it'd be a three to 

1166
01:00:40,280 --> 01:00:44,800
four shoe rotation. 
If I'm thinking across the 

1167
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:52,160
board, man, that is tough. 
I think the first couple 

1168
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:57,880
companies that come to mind for 
me ironically I I think there's 

1169
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:00,400
three that immediately come to 
mind. 

1170
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:07,080
So I could see myself going 
Saucony ride 17, Saucony 

1171
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,960
Endorphin speed for Saucony 
Endorphin Elite and then you can

1172
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,920
throw in pretty much any other 
fourth shoe just for general 

1173
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:19,720
usage. 
And then the other one would be 

1174
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:23,440
on looking at the on Cloud 
Monster for a lot of like higher

1175
01:01:23,440 --> 01:01:26,640
volume stuff and then the cloud 
Flow for for kind of being my 

1176
01:01:26,640 --> 01:01:29,960
more nimble lower to the ground 
shoe and then having the cloud 

1177
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:33,400
boom E3 as the racing shoe. 
You like that one enough? 

1178
01:01:33,840 --> 01:01:35,040
Yeah, yeah. 
It's a great shoe. 

1179
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:37,200
Yeah, I just, I just ran on the 
track on it the other day. 

1180
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,280
Yeah, great. 
And then the other one would be 

1181
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:45,120
Mizuno of all companies. 
I like the I like the Wave Rider

1182
01:01:45,120 --> 01:01:46,880
that could be a daily trainer 
for me. 

1183
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:49,320
I mean, that's a workhorse. 
Yeah, I think could do 

1184
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,440
everything. 
I like the Rebellion Flash too. 

1185
01:01:51,440 --> 01:01:53,840
That just came out. 
You know, like that's a solid 

1186
01:01:53,840 --> 01:01:55,520
training companion. 
And I just did that. 

1187
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,080
Long run I just talked about 
that was in the Rebellion Pro 2 

1188
01:01:58,600 --> 01:02:01,120
that was 16 miles this morning 
and it's so I'm actively running

1189
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,120
in their shoes like I could see 
that happening. 

1190
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:06,960
The other one would be like 
maybe Adidas. 

1191
01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:10,720
I just the only thing is I just 
the audio's Pro 3 did not work 

1192
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:12,040
for me so. 
I'd That's right. 

1193
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,800
I'd have to resort to the Takumi
Sen 9 for my all distance racing

1194
01:02:15,800 --> 01:02:18,240
shoe essentially, you know, and 
I don't know if I feel 

1195
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,520
comfortable making that jump. 
Right. 

1196
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:22,280
What about you? 
So which one though? 

1197
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:24,080
Which one? 
I gotta pick one. 

1198
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,080
Come on, man. 
It's BJ's rules. 

1199
01:02:28,080 --> 01:02:31,520
I think out of general usage and
versatility, I probably would 

1200
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:34,000
lean Saucony here. 
I think the Ride 17 would be the

1201
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,240
workhorse, the endorphin speed 
4I like for pretty much any kind

1202
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:39,720
of workout. 
And then the endorphin elite has

1203
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:42,320
been a shoe that I have raced in
several times. 

1204
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,240
So I think that would probably 
be that probably where I'm 

1205
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:46,840
leaning. 
I feel like that's your tipping 

1206
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,680
point for you. 
Like in your spot, it's Which 

1207
01:02:49,680 --> 01:02:52,200
shoe would I actually want to 
race a marathon in? 

1208
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,240
Because you're trying to. 
You have goals and you're 

1209
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:56,440
shooting for it and you're like 
dipping into some cool 

1210
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:58,600
territories. 
So if you don't have the, you've

1211
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,280
picked that shoe for your 
marathon. 2 marathons, 2 

1212
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,440
marathons. 2 marathons. 
Yeah. 

1213
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:09,080
So it's like that. 
That's kind of telling for me. 

1214
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,200
I I don't have as much of the 
racing bend as you. 

1215
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,680
However, I do care what it's 
like to run on race day. 

1216
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:18,480
You know? 
I don't want to be just I I now 

1217
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,360
that I've been spoiled to being 
exposed to some of these super 

1218
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,480
shoes and just how it feels to 
run in them, it'd be hard to not

1219
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:28,160
have something at least that 
could perform like well. 

1220
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:30,800
There's two companies for me as 
well. 

1221
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,960
One of them was Saucony, except 
I would take the Endorphin Pro 

1222
01:03:34,960 --> 01:03:38,960
3, not the Endorphin Elite. 
Elite didn't work as well for 

1223
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,520
me. 
The Ride 17 would be my trainer.

1224
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:47,800
I would add in the speed for for
sure and then I would actually 

1225
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:51,440
bring the Endorphin Rift along 
because I do like an option to 

1226
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,440
get out on like the Ice Age 
Trail. 

1227
01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:57,160
So and I'm picking the rift 
assuming that they're going to 

1228
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,640
update, update it and improve 
the heel because I thought the 

1229
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,480
heel was super uncomfortable. 
But I loved like the under foot 

1230
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,040
feel, but the upper like it's an
easy change and I I think 

1231
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:10,200
they're going to, I have no 
idea, but I hope they change it 

1232
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,440
just because it was so rigid. 
It had like some parts I could 

1233
01:04:13,440 --> 01:04:17,040
dig in. 
So that would be kind of my my 

1234
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:19,240
pick from Saucony. 
But I think that if I had to 

1235
01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:21,760
choose today, based on where I'm
at with my running, the fact 

1236
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,480
that I'm coming back from this 
injury, I would actually go topo

1237
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,040
for myself. 
My kind of daily trainer would 

1238
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,640
be the Phantom 3. 
That thing can just like eat up 

1239
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:38,160
easy miles. 
Then I like the Spectre and so 

1240
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,560
I've raced 1/2 marathon in that 
and enjoyed taking it. 

1241
01:04:41,560 --> 01:04:44,440
It wasn't like an all out race, 
but I took it out for the half 

1242
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:46,320
marathon and I enjoyed it for 
that distance. 

1243
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:47,920
It's light, it's got a little 
bit of bounce. 

1244
01:04:48,640 --> 01:04:54,400
I really love the SO the shoe 
that I actually wear the most of

1245
01:04:54,400 --> 01:04:57,760
anything right now is the Topo 
Traverse which is like their 

1246
01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:00,720
their hiking shoe. 
But I wear it every day for work

1247
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:03,520
all day long and I would want 
that shoe so I could hike. 

1248
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,880
Or if I if I really wanted to 
double with running I would just

1249
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,440
get the Ultra Venture 4 subbed 
in for that. 

1250
01:05:09,440 --> 01:05:12,280
So I kind of have those 3 shoes 
and then I would I would add in 

1251
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,600
the Cyclone too, just because 
it's a fun lightweight trainer 

1252
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,760
for some like faster speed work 
stuff and maybe some short 

1253
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:20,800
races. 
But I think the Spectre is 

1254
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,280
enough of a race shoe for 
someone like me that I'd be 

1255
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:26,800
happy lacing that up for like 
the Bach run that's coming up 

1256
01:05:27,040 --> 01:05:30,680
and I could enjoy kind of 
running in that in this phase. 

1257
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:34,360
I think in a year from now, if 
I'm healthy and not like holding

1258
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,440
myself back, I would want 
something with a little bit 

1259
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:38,520
lighter of kind of that top end 
racing shoe. 

1260
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:42,040
But right now Topo has a lot of 
stuff that actually fits my foot

1261
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,840
really well and is is 
comfortable for that foot. 

1262
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:49,120
So that's kind of where I lean. 
Yeah, That's a good question. 

1263
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,480
That is a great question. 
And then like, I think about it 

1264
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:52,680
too. 
I'm like, OK, So what else is 

1265
01:05:52,680 --> 01:05:53,920
there? 
And I'm like, because I'm also 

1266
01:05:53,920 --> 01:05:57,280
looking in the camera that's 
facing me and I see the Vomeros 

1267
01:05:57,280 --> 01:05:59,480
right there. 
And I'm like, OK, I was like, I 

1268
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:02,040
love the Nike Vomero and it's 
like, Oh well, Alpha Fly three 

1269
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,240
is right there, love the Alpha 
Fly 3. 

1270
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:07,320
But then it's like they don't 
have that middle ground shoe for

1271
01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:09,520
me. 
I I I've never really found 

1272
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,240
myself working out in a pair of 
Nikes in the last couple of 

1273
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:13,760
years like. 
Zoom fly. 

1274
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,240
Have you tried those zoom and 
these recent zoom flies? 

1275
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:17,480
No, I haven't. 
No, no, no. 

1276
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:18,440
The recent ones. 
Yeah. 

1277
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:21,280
And then? 
The other like you haven't 

1278
01:06:21,280 --> 01:06:22,920
really ran in the Invincible 
much, have you? 

1279
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:26,520
No, what did they? 
I know I oh man, I'm getting, 

1280
01:06:26,520 --> 01:06:28,360
I'm getting the names mixed up 
in my head. 

1281
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,680
The the one with the React foam 
with the white on the black. 

1282
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:34,440
And then it kind of whitened out
and it had a kind of a gritty 

1283
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:37,960
bottom. 
But no, there's nothing in the 

1284
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:38,600
middle, right? 
Like. 

1285
01:06:41,080 --> 01:06:43,040
Yeah, They don't have an 
endorphin speed. 

1286
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:45,760
They don't have a I. 
Think this one fly was supposed 

1287
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:47,720
to be that? 
And then they had the turbo, 

1288
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:48,800
right? 
Like, what was it? 

1289
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:52,720
It was the Yeah, yeah. 
But then yeah, like, they just 

1290
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:54,000
don't really have that right 
now. 

1291
01:06:54,160 --> 01:06:56,800
And I think we might. 
Somebody might come in and say, 

1292
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,480
hey, well you haven't tried the 
Zoom fly and that's actually 

1293
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,080
like just like the speed. 
But I want to I want to hear 

1294
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:05,280
what that so somebody has an 
idea of that middle ground shoe 

1295
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:06,800
from Nike. 
But I do think that's a space 

1296
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:10,720
that they are not dominating, at
least for me. 

1297
01:07:12,040 --> 01:07:14,880
But I like the Invincible, 
except the heel lockdown is 

1298
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:16,880
terrible. 
If that was better, that would 

1299
01:07:16,880 --> 01:07:18,040
have been my trainer of the 
year. 

1300
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,520
But it just, I couldn't get a 
lock at all. 

1301
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:26,120
So it just didn't didn't work. 
But yeah, it it'd be fun to be 

1302
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:27,600
fun to be sponsored by Nike, I 
guess. 

1303
01:07:27,600 --> 01:07:27,800
Huh. 
Any. 

1304
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:34,760
Company might be sweet. 
I feel like for me too. 

1305
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:39,800
I mean like every company has a 
has a an argument to make for me

1306
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:41,840
to choose them like because 
there are a lot of training 

1307
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,680
shoes that I love from ASICS 
like running in the Nova blast 

1308
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:50,640
and then having the Super blast 
and then you know I I haven't I 

1309
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:53,080
just the only thing I don't like
the meta speed sky and I haven't

1310
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,880
ran in the meta speed edge. 
So like racing wise, I I 

1311
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:57,480
wouldn't really have something 
for them. 

1312
01:07:57,760 --> 01:08:00,120
And then for me New Balance has 
cool shoes but they just haven't

1313
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,280
fit my foot well. 
So I can't get a lot of mileage 

1314
01:08:02,280 --> 01:08:05,200
in on a lot of their shoes. 
And some of the shoes had too 

1315
01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:09,520
much toe spring for me. 
So I like the SC Trainer V2 had 

1316
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,240
too much toe spring so I 
couldn't handle it. 

1317
01:08:11,240 --> 01:08:14,560
But a lot of good companies. 
But I'd go with Topo right now. 

1318
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:16,680
Saucony. 
Saucony would be if once I'm 

1319
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,240
back. 
So I can even take over just 

1320
01:08:19,240 --> 01:08:22,920
with how it works for me. 
Awesome. 

1321
01:08:23,319 --> 01:08:26,720
Well, thank you all for joining 
us on this journey and thank you

1322
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,000
for submitting your questions. 
If you have more questions, you 

1323
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,960
can always e-mail at us at 
doctor, e-mail us at 

1324
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:36,319
doctorsofrunning@gmail.com. 
You can always be following us 

1325
01:08:36,319 --> 01:08:40,319
on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter,
LinkedIn or is it X? 

1326
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:43,240
We're on threads at Doctors of 
Running. 

1327
01:08:43,279 --> 01:08:45,160
You should be able to find us 
pretty easily. 

1328
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,479
But thanks for joining today and
we'll see you next time.