1 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:15,040 Hello everyone and welcome to the Doctors of Running podcast 2 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,640 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discuss the 3 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,640 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 4 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,320 feet at the round table. We have the founder of Doctors 5 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,200 of Running, doctor Matthew Klein, and I will also be here. 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:29,480 My name is Nathan Brown and we have a jam packed mailbag with 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,119 some heavy hitters from you all. I feel like I say heavy hitters 8 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:34,400 every time, but I feel like it's always true because people are 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,000 asking really unique questions about their interactions with 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,680 footwear in different conditions. 11 00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:43,040 It's also heavy hitting because we don't get to interact and ask 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:44,800 follow-ups. So we have to do a lot of 13 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,520 interpret interpretation, which is why this is never medical 14 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:50,680 advice. It is just us responding to 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:53,080 questions for the sake of education and doing some 16 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:55,720 critical thinking together. But before we get into the 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,360 mailbag, I do have two things for you. 18 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:02,680 The the 1st is that both of us are about, as we record this, 19 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,320 are starting the new semester. And something that I've noticed 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,600 is that each cohort has its own kind of personality. 21 00:01:10,960 --> 00:01:14,160 There was one group that every time a class period finished, 22 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,920 they all clapped for everyone every time. 23 00:01:16,960 --> 00:01:19,760 So as a, as an instructor, you feel like amazing. 24 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:20,960 Yeah. Even if you're not lecturing, 25 00:01:20,960 --> 00:01:22,920 even if it's like an interactive thing you get done, like that's 26 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,680 it for the day and everyone just claps for you. 27 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:27,160 And then the other one, like they can be deadpan. 28 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:31,680 Like it's just so different, you know, and I know both of us like 29 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:36,680 to carry passion and humor into our methods of teaching. 30 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,440 And I for me, like when I'm recording things that they watch 31 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,040 for pre class, like activities, I'll write little jokes or 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,280 references on the board behind me just as little like Easter 33 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,280 eggs that they can find. I also know that you like to 34 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,640 tell pun jokes. Do you have any that you could 35 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,720 share with us as Dor community? Yeah, let me let me choose the 36 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:02,000 appropriate ones. One of the classic ones I had 37 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:05,600 just recently is did you hear Newberg had this really 38 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,320 interesting art? Newberg is where George Fox is 39 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,520 had this really interesting, very intense art competition. 40 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,480 Did you hear about this? No. 41 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:14,960 It ended in a draw. Oh. 42 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,040 That's nice, yeah. Right. 43 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,520 All right, well, that's enough of our joking for the night. 44 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,360 The other the other question that I had for you before. 45 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:27,760 Was that bad? We're like, all right, we're 46 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:28,920 moving on. That was terrible. 47 00:02:28,920 --> 00:02:30,560 I thought this would be funny. No, that was. 48 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:31,240 Good. Awkward. 49 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:32,600 I liked it. No, I liked it. 50 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,720 It was good. What I wanted to ask though, is 51 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,040 for both of us to just give an update of like of the shoes 52 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,080 we're testing right now. What's sticking out to you? 53 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,160 Which shoe are you enjoying the most right now? 54 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,120 Yeah, so I'm there's a couple shoes on the list. 55 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:50,320 I know I was supposed to bring up one, but I actually brought 56 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:52,480 them with me. One of them was a little 57 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,280 surprise. I will say the Nimbus 27 from 58 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:57,240 ASICS has actually been been really good. 59 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:01,000 I think because for me it is starting to soften a little bit 60 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:03,080 that no different people are going to have very different 61 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:05,200 experiences with mid souls and I totally get that. 62 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,360 I personally feel this version is a little bit firmer and a 63 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,800 little bit more responsive, so slightly less compliant, 64 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,440 slightly more resilient than prior versions, which really 65 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:19,080 balances the ride really well and works super well for my 66 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:20,640 mechanics. It's been really comfortable. 67 00:03:20,920 --> 00:03:23,640 I'm really enjoying it. So I would say, and because 68 00:03:23,640 --> 00:03:26,120 previous nemesis have been good, but not choose it. 69 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:28,080 I'm like, oh, I'm going to keep getting as many miles on these 70 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,720 because they're, you know, I can get the number needed for review 71 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,320 and move on. So that's been a really good 72 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,000 one. The other one that kind of 73 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,480 surprised me because I like to go against the grain and so this 74 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,520 shoe is a very late addition. So a lot of other reviewers have 75 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:42,880 had this for a while. It's been out there. 76 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:46,600 But the Edius Addy 0 Evil SL was one that actually surprised me 77 00:03:46,600 --> 00:03:48,400 where it's breaking in really nicely. 78 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,680 I just did a long run in it, which I didn't think I was going 79 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:52,160 to be able to do with the narrow midfoot. 80 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:56,000 And for 150 bucks, this is a pretty solid shoe. 81 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:00,320 I'd really compare it to the Endorphin Speed for like very 82 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,040 similar in many aspects, but then slightly different than 83 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:04,520 others. So it's a very interesting 84 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:08,360 competitor in that market. And yeah, it's yeah, just a 85 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,000 really interesting shoe, especially one with this much 86 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,320 that's coming in at 150 bucks is really nice and great. 87 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,920 So kudos to Adidas not only for making a fairly good product, 88 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,959 but also in my opinion, pricing is really, really, really well 89 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,320 in an in the age of like 161-8200. 90 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,560 Yeah. Do you know what foam they're 91 00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:28,320 using in there? And is there a plate in that 92 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,640 one? So that's a very good question. 93 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:34,600 They are using Light Strike Pro Pro foam and I want to clarify 94 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,000 that even though I say that it's def it, every shoe, it's 95 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,120 different. Like comparing this to the 96 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,240 audios before, it's not the same foam. 97 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,560 It's got the same umbrella name, totally different. 98 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,880 I will say this version. Kind of like power on PB. 99 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,080 Yeah, there's like you can have it in the Triumph, for example. 100 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,600 That's going to be a totally different power on PB than. 101 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,720 Say, how Did you just have the triumph with you? 102 00:04:56,440 --> 00:05:02,320 Because OK, I just. Pulled that out of nowhere just 103 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:05,480 like this. No, because I I didn't put away 104 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,920 all the shoes from the episode that David and I just did on 105 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:10,720 socketing. So I was just sitting under the 106 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,840 table, my computer sitting on. So I'm like, I just that's. 107 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:13,840 Hilarious. OK. 108 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:18,000 So it's, it's this fall, the light Stripe Pro in here is 109 00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:21,120 definitely a little bit more compliant and not as resilient 110 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,040 as some of the other ones, which makes sense as a trainer. 111 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,360 Now the thing I'm confused about, you ask, is there a 112 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,240 plate? There is apparently a nylon 113 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,760 Shank in here if someone please correct me if I'm wrong, if 114 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:35,520 that's the wrong material, but it's not a it's not flexible for 115 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,480 sure. The very end right here for 116 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,200 those watching, there is some flex. 117 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,560 The rest of the shoe, it does have some stiffness, not like oh 118 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,640 super, but there is something in there that it's extending a 119 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,760 little bit beyond the mid foot. So other people were saying 120 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:50,200 like, oh, it's a non plated shoe. 121 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:51,720 I'm like, that's not what it feels like. 122 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:55,880 So I would say yes, although it may just be not calling it a 123 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:57,200 plate so. That's great. 124 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:01,520 Yeah, yeah, My, my shoe right now is actually not a running 125 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:05,120 shoe. I it's a kind of walking 126 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:06,920 commuter shoe. And it's one of these where I 127 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,400 feel weird bringing it up because at its price point, it's 128 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,680 a shoe that I would never ever buy personally. 129 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:17,400 So you can close your ears if you don't like casual shoes for 130 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,440 $200, which I would be in that category. 131 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:23,400 But I do wear it to work everyday because what I do, I 132 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,000 drive about 5 minutes and then I park and then I take about a 10 133 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,560 minute walk to get to work because I don't want to pay to 134 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,080 park on campus. So I park off campus and then I 135 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,960 walk all the way to my office. And so it's also winter around 136 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,240 here like today is today when I got up was -8 I think tomorrow's 137 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,280 a high of -3 and it's going to be like -17 or something like 138 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:45,040 that. So we're in that season and it's 139 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:50,400 the, it's from Hoka, it's the transport Chuka GTX. 140 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,400 So it's a little bit like a mid height, so it's a little bit 141 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,280 higher, but it's gore Tex. So with the snow that we have, 142 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:00,680 any slush or whatever, it's been pretty nice and has a little bit 143 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,120 of grip for some of that stuff too. 144 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:03,920 So I've just been wearing everyday. 145 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,760 It's comfortable. I did half size up in it 146 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:08,800 compared to my normal. So I'm normally size 9, got a 147 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:11,040 nine and a half. And if it's great with the half 148 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:13,480 size up, just because typically the hook is a little bit too 149 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,560 narrow for me, especially when it's gore Tex. 150 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:18,720 So the half size up helped me. What were you going to say? 151 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,080 I will say with a lot of the Hoka and Decker's casual stuff, 152 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,760 for sure go up a half size. I, I don't think I've 153 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:28,000 experienced one that that felt true to size for me personally. 154 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:29,880 I don't know if that's the extra material, what have you, but 155 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:31,560 when you do that, it's comfortable. 156 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,160 Ready to get into the mailbag? Absolutely. 157 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:36,040 Let's dip in. Here we go. 158 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:38,840 So the mailbag, our first question is from our friend 159 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:43,000 Wessel and they're asking I have a question regarding shoes and 160 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,600 shin splints. I was wondering what type of 161 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,520 shoe cushioning would be best for the recovery of shin 162 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,720 splints. Softer shoes feel like they are 163 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:54,200 more cushioned but are generally more unstable, which can also 164 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,800 lead to increased stress on the tibia. 165 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,840 Any advice? So Wessel's our friend from the 166 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,560 Netherlands and that this is his question. 167 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,440 I think we have a couple other shin splints questions. 168 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:11,480 Do you mind giving a 22nd synopsis of shin splints and 169 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,880 then we'll go about answering Wessel's question? 170 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,920 Yeah. So that's a, that's a very good 171 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:18,720 thing to go into. So shin splints is a catch all 172 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,560 term. It's kind of like when people 173 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,200 give a diagnosis of low back pain or libago, it really means 174 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,520 any kind of symptoms going on in an area referring to the lower 175 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:31,800 leg, the tibia, fibula, there's people are having symptoms in 176 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:33,840 that area. It's not very specific, just 177 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,640 means that something is going on there. 178 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,760 What it doesn't tell you, and I'll give you a couple examples 179 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,559 of what it might be. It can very commonly, commonly 180 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:44,520 be some kind of muscle. The anterior tibialis is 1. 181 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:45,920 Some of the peroneals are some of them. 182 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,240 The toeic and ankle extensors can be ones that get irritated 183 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,640 or strain. It can be the bone, which is 184 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,240 where we get a little bit more concerned. 185 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,760 We'd start talking about stress reactions or stress fractures, 186 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:58,880 which are a little more concerning in the actual tissues 187 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,320 there you can have some sprains of some of the the what's called 188 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,640 the interosseous membrane. This isn't as common that hold 189 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:08,400 the tibian fib together or it can even be nerve. 190 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:10,920 That's that can cause some issues. 191 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,880 So it just refers to where the symptoms are. 192 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:18,080 It doesn't tell us as much about what the tissue is or what might 193 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,040 be driving them, but there are some common things that can 194 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,080 maybe influence some of that stuff, but it will depend on 195 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,080 what it is. If I could add one structure to 196 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,680 that list, it would be to be honest, posterior being on the 197 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:32,760 the more inside of the shin bone. 198 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:36,720 So when I was reading this question and thinking about it, 199 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,680 I think one other hallmark regarding shin pain that I think 200 00:09:40,680 --> 00:09:43,600 is important. And I, I think we're, we're 201 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:46,840 going to kind of steer our response to this question is 202 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,360 assuming that it is due to irritation of the bone or of the 203 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,800 Bony casein or the periosteum. Let's kind of answer this 204 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,800 question in that realm. And so if we go, if we go that 205 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:03,880 way, I think something that was assumed for a long time is that 206 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:09,000 the, the kind of progression of shin pain related to either the 207 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:13,360 bone casing or the bone itself was due to impact forces on the 208 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,280 ground that if you land a certain way, there's higher 209 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,560 impact. And that's going to all that 210 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:22,120 vibration is going to lead to breakdown of the bone over time. 211 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,960 There's newer evidence in the last five or so years that's 212 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,000 showing that the stress on the bone is actually higher due to 213 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:33,880 the tension created from muscle pull more so than the impact 214 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,160 forces from the ground and your body. 215 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,280 And the reason why that is important is because I think for 216 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:45,160 a while it was, oh, you have shin splints or you have shin 217 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,400 pain related to your bone, you should run on your forefoot 218 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,480 because then you are going to decrease the amount of impact 219 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,760 peak based based on biomechanical data, which also 220 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,520 is a whole other part of the conversation determining high 221 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:03,440 and low frequency impact. But they said land, land on your 222 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,440 forefoot so that you have less impact, which will decrease the 223 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,880 stress on the bone. However, if it is muscles that 224 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:12,880 are common like the tibialis posterior, they are more active 225 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,480 when you're landing more on your mid and forefoot as a part of 226 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:17,880 the running cycle. And therefore, they actually 227 00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:21,200 could become a situation where that would worsen some people's 228 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:22,960 condition when they have shin splints. 229 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,360 So that's like my little sidebar soapbox to this whole thing. 230 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:32,280 But in that category, I think when I recommend shoes to folks 231 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:35,040 who are dealing with regular champagne, I'm thinking how can 232 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,320 we decrease the demand on the muscles that are pulling on the 233 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:43,040 bone, namely tibialis posterior, maybe tibialis anterior if 234 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,160 that's where where your pain location is. 235 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:47,960 And so that typically leads me towards shoes that have some 236 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,960 form of a stiffer rocker and not too soft because that softer 237 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,880 cushioning is going to increase muscular demand to create more 238 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:56,680 stability. So it's not that you need a 239 00:11:56,680 --> 00:12:00,160 stable shoe, but I think the balance of the right amount of 240 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:04,320 rocker to offload the all that posterior calf musculature as 241 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:09,040 well as something that is stiff enough and so are infirm enough 242 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,120 that you're not just sinking in and having to stabilize. 243 00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:14,120 So I didn't that's not a specific shoe, but categorically 244 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,680 that's what I'm thinking. Do you have any other thoughts? 245 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:22,000 I would say IA 100% agree to dive back to what our whistle 246 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,240 was asking in terms of like cushioning stuff. 247 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:30,040 Yes, 100% So, and this is he was correct that the harder, sorry, 248 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,520 the softer a midsum material is, the more muscle contraction you 249 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:34,920 get because you have to stabilize. 250 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,520 And that's something we know that softer, higher stack shoes 251 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,360 do actually increase joint stiffness. 252 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,600 And that can and because the muscles are having to contract 253 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,840 so hard to can keep that keep your foot stable or your lower 254 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,280 extremity, the others other option can't. 255 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,200 The other side can be true as well that the firmer that you 256 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,160 go, the more the muscles have to work instead of necessarily 257 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,960 tensing up so much in like an isometric pattern. 258 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,320 They're going to have to be better shock absorbers, which is 259 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,560 also why firmer shoes are probably not the best option. 260 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,760 And I would encourage, and people don't always like this 261 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,200 because they like extremes. You're going to have to find the 262 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:14,320 best balance of cushioning that works for you in terms of not 263 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,880 too soft, not too firm. And that means you kind of got 264 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,480 to put that on and figure that out. 265 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,440 But I'd also say that to me, cushioning goes, like you said, 266 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:26,280 is in part with like I, I want a rocker because a lot of the 267 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,560 rockers, the whole point of them is that they reduce the workload 268 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,040 on the muscles of the lower extremity. 269 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,600 So you know, your anterior tip, your post tip, your cap, all 270 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,320 that stuff won't necessarily work as hard with the rocker 271 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,320 unless it's extreme. So finding something that's very 272 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,160 balanced is really key. But I'd also encourage you that 273 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,400 a shoe is good, but a shoe isn't going to fix on injury. 274 00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,520 And so making sure that you're really focusing on your rehab 275 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:56,760 and not overtraining beyond what the tissue can handle is 276 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,600 probably the most important part about this. 277 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,480 So shoe is secondary, but if that's what you want to think 278 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:06,400 about, adequate rocker, appropriate balance of 279 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,280 cushioning, whatever that feels like for the person. 280 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:11,600 Yeah, perfect. Well, let's just move right into 281 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:16,280 this next question from Darren. And they're asking this, they 282 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:17,960 said they've been going on a rabbit hole, looking at a bunch 283 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:21,320 of videos, blogs, trying to find the right shoe, having issues 284 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,920 with posterior shin splints. That's kind of the pain on the 285 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,800 backside of that shin bone, which might be more of that tip 286 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:29,960 post, but it also could be bone. I think the other can I go on a 287 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:31,560 little extra little thing on shin pain. 288 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,400 I think that there's a good differentiator for you in terms 289 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:38,240 of how concerned should I be that this is bone versus this is 290 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,760 like muscle and more of like the medial tibial stress syndrome, 291 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,200 not necessarily like a bone fracture. 292 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,840 If it's really on that distal couple centimeters of your 293 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:48,800 tibia. So the furthest down couple 294 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,600 centimeters, you're looking more bone. 295 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,080 If you're looking more mid to upper part or not upper, just 296 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,400 kind of that mid portion, kind of the next 5 or so centimeters, 297 00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,920 you might be like, oh, this could just be medial tibial 298 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:02,280 stress syndrome. That just tells you, do I need 299 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:05,120 to stop now? Which if it's that distal part 300 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,000 and you have other signs and symptoms that lead towards bone, 301 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:11,120 if you think it's bone, you got to actually stop running, which 302 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:14,040 I am. I am not a stop runners from 303 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,320 running physical therapist, but that's appropriate management of 304 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,960 a bone related thing. All right, let's so let's go 305 00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:23,960 back to this, OK, posterior shin splints. 306 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:26,440 Some days are worse than others. Currently taking a little break 307 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,240 from running due to them flaring up again and at the point to 308 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,920 replace some shoes. So they've currently been 309 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,680 running in the Brooks GTS 22 and there's somewhere on the 310 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,680 posterior back outside of the heel, which we would say is 311 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:40,000 typical. That's very typical. 312 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,000 So they've tried landing more on the midfoot and that actually 313 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:47,200 tends to make shin pain worse, which I guess is what I was just 314 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,400 talking about in terms of laying more on the forefoot. 315 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:52,640 So they found that they naturally like to land more 316 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:54,080 between the heel and the midfoot. 317 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,400 With that said, they're guessing that they would want to shoot 318 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,800 that has a subtle heel bevel. Also add that they run every 319 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:01,960 other day, so three to four times a week, averaging about 320 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,360 two to four miles per run, running mostly on asphalt or 321 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:09,160 street and pavement type stuff, but sometimes on a dirt track. 322 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,920 They try to keep pace around 8 to 9 minutes per mile and has an 323 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,760 event coming up that they'll do a couple different things. 324 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,960 So they're considering a a myriad of different Brooks shoes 325 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,560 because that's the only thing that I have experience in, but 326 00:16:21,560 --> 00:16:24,440 they're open to other types of companies. 327 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,920 So what sort of recommendations wait may we have for this or any 328 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,800 specific shoes for them to try out? 329 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:31,720 Yeah. Do you mind if I take this? 330 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:32,880 Yeah, please all. Right. 331 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,400 So the first things I'm thinking about again, when you start 332 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,120 thinking about that post your side, I also want to be really 333 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:40,480 respectful of not knowing their mechanics. 334 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,440 But if they do, since they do have a history of running in a 335 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,840 stability shoe, I'm not necessarily going to suggest 336 00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:50,040 them to change unless that change feels comfortable. 337 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,160 So I want to be a little bit cautious there. 338 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,480 And again, Nathan mentioned this beginning, we don't have a 339 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:58,080 history, We don't have an injury history on this individual. 340 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,880 So there's a lot of other unanswered questions. 341 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:01,960 So please take this with a grain of salt. 342 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,880 So where I'm thinking here is, yeah, so if you're shifting 343 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,280 mechanics forwards and it makes it worse, this is a great 344 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,839 example that Nathan said that changing foot strike isn't 345 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:13,920 always the best first line thing. 346 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,440 It takes a lot of work and it doesn't necessarily decrease 347 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:19,160 stresses, it just actually moves them. 348 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,599 And you still have the same levels, they just might be in a 349 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:24,680 slightly different area. If you're having more posterior 350 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:28,359 stuff, assuming it's not bone, it is muscle tissue, moving your 351 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,800 foot strike forward is actually going to increase stress through 352 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:33,120 that area because that's what those things now you're adding 353 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,600 when you land up further, you're adding more of an eccentric load 354 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,480 to the posterior compartment, which is higher stress in that 355 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:43,760 area. So yes, figuring out what's 356 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:47,160 natural for you, great. I think with the Brooks 357 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,360 Adrenaline GTS 22 and many Brooks shoes previously, and 358 00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:53,000 they are getting better. When you have that combination 359 00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:58,480 of a high heel drop plus not a very large bevel, when you land 360 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,440 the moment on, there's a large torque that's going to happen 361 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,360 because you're hitting that tall heel, especially if it's really 362 00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,320 stiff and it's launching you forwards. 363 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:11,000 So a heel bevel would be great. I don't necessarily know if I 364 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,640 would suggest changing the heel drop significantly just because 365 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:16,280 this it we're looking at the back. 366 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,840 And so if you go into a lower drop, that also increases stress 367 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,360 in that area. So comfort is again, key and I 368 00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:25,960 want, I think this person needs to avoid doing something 369 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,560 extreme. So of the shoes that were 370 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,640 listed, the Glycerin Max might good be a good option just 371 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,240 because it is a little bit more inherently stable without being 372 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,480 too aggressive. It's also got a far better heel 373 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:40,960 bevel than a lot of the other shoes. 374 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,000 And the bevel again, kind of reduces the stress as you 375 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,360 transition. It just smooths out the 376 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:46,640 transition. So a lot of those muscles don't 377 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,560 have to work nearly as hard to get through the gate cycle. 378 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:56,440 Hyperion Max 2, I don't think I would suggest as much only 379 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,240 because the bevel is really aggressive and that shoe is 380 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,880 very, very stiff, so that might actually increase stress through 381 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:07,760 the posterior compartment. Hyperion GTS 2, if you want to 382 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:09,920 try it great. It is a lower drop shoe, so 383 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,920 there's going to be a lot of mechanical changes that are 384 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:14,520 going to happen. So I'm really concerned about 385 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,280 making big changes unless they feel comfortable. 386 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,840 So honestly the glycerin GTS or glycerin Max in my mind are 387 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,440 going to be kind of the better options because those two have a 388 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,400 better heel bevel. They are both inherently stable 389 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,800 and I haven't I haven't tried the glycerin GTS 22 yet, but it 390 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:33,760 looks great and the last version did a much better. 391 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,840 The Brooks is doing a lot better job with bevels and so I think 392 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,360 if you're going to stay with Brooks, those would be the two 393 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:44,920 things that I would consider. There are many other options out 394 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,640 there such as like if the Brooks Adrenaline is not doing it for 395 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:51,760 you, the new A6 GT 2000 series is also great because drop is 396 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,760 just a tiny bit lower, the transition so much smoother and 397 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,000 it's a great shoe that doesn't overdo things. 398 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,360 Might be something to try or I would be looking at anything out 399 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:05,480 there that has a better. Heel bevel, but still stays 400 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,720 stable if like stable neutral at least, so you're not just 401 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,480 jumping really aggressively into something different because 402 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:14,520 that's what a lot of people do is they go, I need a shoe to fix 403 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,480 my problem. So I'm just going to go like 404 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:18,560 totally change. And then it feels great for a 405 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:20,360 little bit and then you end up with something else instead of 406 00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,600 going, OK, what do I need to change? 407 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,160 What can I make subtle changes about? 408 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,080 So that would be if you're going to pick up those four glycerin 409 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,920 Max or glycerin GTS 22 and just and just see. 410 00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:34,480 I would also highly suggest if you haven't, that if this is 411 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,280 going on long enough, you might want to consider seeing a 412 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,920 medical professional to kind of help tease us out and see if 413 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,560 this is actually something shoes can solve or not. 414 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:45,440 Yeah. When I was thinking outside of 415 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:50,240 Brooks as a company, I was going to ask you about the GT2000. 416 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,200 I was also going to see you are testing the Nimbus 27 right now. 417 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,800 Is that in the stable neutral category or would you say not 418 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,560 quite here? I would say not. 419 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,120 Or for this for this situation I. 420 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,760 Guess for this individual in this situation, I would say not 421 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,600 necessarily enough because that for me, I my mechanics do very 422 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,440 well and I've gotten a lot better over the years working in 423 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,800 like a mild stability or stable neutral. 424 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,640 So I can move into a shoe like this. 425 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,880 This is just almost stable neutral. 426 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,440 I don't know how many others maybe I'll do that. 427 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,040 So I couldn't suggest that one as much as, say, the GT2000. 428 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:29,400 Yeah. OK. 429 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:31,160 Let's move on to our next question. 430 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:33,480 The next one is from Cynthia, and they're looking for a 431 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,280 walking shoe recommendation. It's kind of when I read this 432 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:38,440 question, it's very long, I'm going to condense it, but it 433 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,560 felt like trying to find this Goldilocks shoe for walking. 434 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,720 So this is kind of part of their question, looking for footwear 435 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,400 that's a generalist shoe for walking on the road and easy, 436 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:54,800 but hilly trails or fields and walking fast around and a casual 437 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,200 workplace with lots of stairs. So they got to use this shoe 438 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,280 kind of for work, getting around, going on walks and just 439 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,800 having a shoe that's going to work well for them. 440 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,040 They said that they tend to get an injured Achilles when their 441 00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:08,120 heel ends up compressing in the cushion. 442 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,360 In shoes that is usually happening, she says when there 443 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:15,600 is too low of a drop, such as her ultras that she's worn. 444 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,880 She was using a Brooks dyad which is discontinued, which was 445 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,200 not perfect because she was having issues with the fit. 446 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,760 So it was tapering too much with this and was a smidge short in 447 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:32,160 the toe and a little short in the arch length, but liked some 448 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:33,920 of features of it like that It had a straight fit. 449 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,840 It was very neutral, flat on the inside, didn't have too much 450 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,960 cushioning. So it kind of trying to find 451 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,520 something like that because other shoes that she's tried 452 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:45,440 have either too much rock or too much foam. 453 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,960 They're too high or too narrow. They're too rigid in the heel 454 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,320 counter, asymmetric bevel in the heel, which wasn't beneficial 455 00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:55,800 for her or too much splay in the base. 456 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,400 So there was a lot of because she would clip her feet 457 00:22:58,400 --> 00:22:59,960 together. She's just looking for kind of 458 00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,400 that Goldilocks shoe. Do you have any suggestions? 459 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,960 I have two in my head, but I'll let you go first if you want. 460 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:08,560 You want me to go? First, Nathan, I'm going to have 461 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:10,280 you leave this one because I'm really curious. 462 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,760 Great. So when you started talking 463 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,680 about something I didn't read is she's talking about what she 464 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,920 read about the Topo ST5 as a possible lifestyle shoe. 465 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,960 When I thought about Topo, I thought of a shoe that wasn't 466 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,360 fully zero drop, gave a little bit of a drop, which was 467 00:23:26,360 --> 00:23:29,040 something that she said she wanted and also had just a 468 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,400 little bit more structure to it, but not too much. 469 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,880 I felt like it fits more the middle ground and that was the 470 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,080 Phantom 3. And that shoe has a little bit 471 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,320 of cushioning. I think that it is stays wide 472 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,000 through the whole midfoot, unlike the ST5, which does come 473 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,480 a little bit more narrow. So I think that the the phantom 474 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,720 fits a lot of things. It could be a great it's a great 475 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,440 walking shoe. It's got a slight bevel to it, 476 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,000 it's got a little bit of a rocker, but not really it's 477 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,640 flexible once you start moving it. 478 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,000 So I think it could do a lot of the things that you're looking 479 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:02,080 for and is very comfortable for walking. 480 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:07,040 So that was the first one. The other shoe that I thought of 481 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:11,640 was actually from a car who, and I think that it wouldn't even 482 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:16,280 matter which model of car who. I would say if you have a fleet 483 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,600 feet around you that you could go try on some of these. 484 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,600 I would go try on the Fusion and the Oconee and see which one of 485 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,960 those and even the Mistari run that. 486 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:30,280 That is their newest model. I I would say like one of their 487 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,000 newest models. No, I would say be a little. 488 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,080 I love that shoe. It is very, very if she doesn't 489 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,560 like a rocker, it is very, very, very well rockered. 490 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,160 That would be my only it's. More. 491 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:42,400 Yeah, it's a great shoe. Great. 492 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,960 I think you should go try those on leaning towards those first 493 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,160 two because they have they do have a a rocker built into them 494 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,840 through their fulcrum, but it's really not that extreme and they 495 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,240 do a really nice job with their high volume models. 496 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,760 So they keep a really kind of non tapered toe box. 497 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,720 So I would go check those out, see if you could try some of the 498 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,840 Hivo and then you'll feel the difference between the the the 499 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,560 Oconee and the fusion. They have a very different feel. 500 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,720 I think that they're they're simplest model is that Oconee. 501 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,120 It's not as aggressive as the fusion is now, so that's where 502 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:21,240 my mind went some to at least try out. 503 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,200 Do you have any others? That's actually Carhoo was the 504 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,120 one I was going to suggest because of what Cynthia was 505 00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:32,520 looking for in terms of doesn't want it too high, right. 506 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,200 So most of their shoes are still in that moderate stack height 507 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:37,360 range. The rocker is there. 508 00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:41,480 It's not a traditional rocker like the tall like maximal shoe 509 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,200 rocker. It's more like a facilitatory 510 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,240 thing where and it doesn't, it doesn't feel extreme. 511 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:47,520 There's definitely not too much foam. 512 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,120 I've said not too high, definitely not too narrow. 513 00:25:50,120 --> 00:25:53,800 They do their fits super super well on especially the HYVO. 514 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:58,040 Volume is what Hyvo model is also good and Nathan does a good 515 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,520 job of whenever I get a car who sent to me I almost always get 516 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,840 the HYVO model and it's so good. It's so. 517 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,160 Good. It's so good. 518 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,600 They also do not have the asymmetric bevel in the heel, 519 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,120 which sometimes usually I like that posterolateral bevel, but 520 00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:12,640 for how? What? 521 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,960 For whatever reason, when they do this, it creates that really 522 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,640 nice stable neutral ride where it's like, it's not a 523 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,200 aggressive, it's not a stability shoe, but it's also not fully 524 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,200 neutral. It's just there. 525 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:29,440 So I feel like Carhoo is really, really checks off all the boxes 526 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,440 of a shoe that I would think, oh, it's also not too high or 527 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,040 low drop. It feels right in the middle. 528 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:38,680 They usually go six. Yeah, I would say that that 529 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,200 company really is where my brain went immediately because a lot 530 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:46,120 of the concern, I almost was thinking about the 880 from New 531 00:26:46,120 --> 00:26:49,800 Balance to New One until we got to the very end where Cynthia 532 00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,280 mentioned like too much foam, too high, because that version 533 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,200 just actually went maximalist. And it's like, oh, this is 534 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,360 great, but it's going to be different. 535 00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,400 So yeah, I'm 100% carhoo is where I started thinking as soon 536 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:03,920 as you said that. Might definitely agree. 537 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,200 Cool. All right. 538 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,320 We're going to move on to our next question from Emily from 539 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,720 Australia. And they're saying that they've 540 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,920 been running for about 18 months and is 37 years old, midfoot 541 00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:17,640 striker, 4 hour marathoner. During that time, they've had 542 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,760 some issues with arch pain, particularly on longer runs 543 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,560 during marathon training, which has improved with seeing PT and 544 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,160 strengthening her feet. So she has this kind of full 545 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,240 thing going on. She's working on it, which is 546 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,040 great. They she did have an MRI that 547 00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,360 shows so she has abductor hallises tendinopathy which 548 00:27:35,360 --> 00:27:37,000 could be contributing to her pain. 549 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,840 Interestingly she finds the pain is triggered immediately within 550 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,200 the first few minutes if running in the Saucony triumph 21. 551 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,840 So that is the pre PB model. So that's still in power and 552 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,200 plus also gets pain on longer runs in the Nova Blast four. 553 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:58,160 And the Audi 0SL2 doesn't seem to get any pain on longer runs 554 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:03,000 with the Boston 12, the Puma DV8 Nitro 2 and the Audios Pro 3. 555 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,960 She's wondering what is the feature of this triumph that 556 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:09,920 exacerbates the pain so much? She's wondering if it has to do 557 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:13,360 with compliance of the foam flexibility of the forefoot or 558 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,160 she does have a little bit of stiffness in her first MTP, 559 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,120 though still reasonably good range of motion. 560 00:28:18,120 --> 00:28:20,840 So it's possible that stiffer shoes work a bit better because 561 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,400 of this. Don't really know. 562 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,880 So she just wants to kind of hear our thoughts. 563 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,000 So Matt, I'll let you take it away and then I'll follow up. 564 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,200 Nathan, I'm going to need you to check because I'm getting really 565 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,000 excited and I'm probably going to make some assumptions. 566 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,760 So please help me clean this up when I go through this. 567 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,720 So Emily, what it is sounding like, and again, we don't have 568 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,880 enough we there's more information we probably need. 569 00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,880 The kind of key feature between the Triumph 21, the Nova Blast 4 570 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:50,280 and it is the Eddy 0SL2 is they all have fairly narrow midfoot. 571 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,680 I mean the Nova Blast four, it was a little bit wider, but the 572 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,520 foam and the the way the geometry is set up is I always 573 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,280 felt like I got pitched into the midfoot like the medial. 574 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,280 So I very, very quickly just because that they had that kind 575 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,160 of rock that what would you call that it? 576 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,000 It was that they called it a trampoline kind of thing, but it 577 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:10,480 like pitched you forward. And if you are like someone like 578 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,680 myself who's going medial anyway, like it just took me too 579 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,040 far. So all those don't have super 580 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,120 great midfoot stiffening agents either. 581 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,000 Like a Triumph 21 was very narrow. 582 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,720 It was a great shoe. It was definitely a weird 583 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,400 Triumph because it was a faster shoe and a lighter Triumph. 584 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,160 And now the current one fits kind of more consistently with 585 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,560 where I would expect a premium neutral trainer to be with the 586 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:39,320 Power and PB and being softer. It differentiates from the ride. 587 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,560 And to say the Addi 0SL2 is great. 588 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:43,560 It's just there's not a stiffening agent. 589 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,480 It's a little it's more narrow in the midfoot. 590 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,920 So it's sounding like, and I almost was like, oh, you need a 591 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:50,880 wider midfoot. But then you said the Boston 12 592 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,960 and I said, that's not that shoe has a narrow midfoot. 593 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,320 It the way the geometry set up is that the rods actually go out 594 00:29:58,320 --> 00:29:59,840 lateral. So it pitches you medial. 595 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:03,040 And I went, oh, maybe it's not necessarily the medial motion. 596 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,800 Maybe it's you just need a stiffening agent. 597 00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,800 Maybe you're someone that does a little bit better with a stiff 598 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,080 for shoe because the three shoes you mentioned, Yeah, at this 599 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,120 time, yeah, very good. The three shoes you mentioned 600 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,120 are all, all have some form of stiffening agent, especially in 601 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,040 the midfoot and throughout the entire length of the shoes. 602 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,680 So you may do better with a shoe that's either stiffer or has a 603 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:27,840 stiffening agent. And I, I give this caveat 604 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,480 because like something like the Super Blast for basics doesn't 605 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,080 have a stiffing agent, but it is one of the stiffest shoes I've 606 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,480 ever run it. So you know, it, it may be good 607 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,360 that you have a shoe that has a little bit of that rocker, a 608 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,000 little bit more of a stiffening agent. 609 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:46,440 And I, I think if you have stuff that's working for you, awesome. 610 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,920 Probably finding something that's similar to those ones is 611 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,680 going to be great. And the and the great thing now 612 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,920 great for you. Great not as great for other 613 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,800 people that want flexibility is that a lot of trainers now have 614 00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,960 stiffening agents that are more rocker or moving in this 615 00:30:59,960 --> 00:31:02,320 direction. So I think the ones you're 616 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,360 using, I think for longer runs may not be the Triumph 21 617 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,760 obviously is a big one, but the other two may not be the best 618 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,800 option for longer runs. And if you're going to do longer 619 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,040 efforts, you just made a hat, need to have a stiffer shoe with 620 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,760 a little bit better 4 foot Walker at least. 621 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,160 And that's something that just works for your mechanics maybe? 622 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:21,960 Did I miss anything? Any thoughts? 623 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,840 No, no, I, I, I went in the very similar pathway. 624 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,280 I think there were clear similarities and differences 625 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,120 between the models that worked well and that didn't mainly that 626 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,840 there was a stiffening agent versus non stiffening, non 627 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:36,840 stiffening agent. And I, I agree it's, you 628 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:39,760 combined that stiffening agent with the more narrow platform, 629 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,560 maybe the, the rods in the Boston 12 do enough to stabilize 630 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:49,320 for them medialateral as well. So no, I don't, I don't have 631 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,080 much more to add because I think you, you covered kind of what I 632 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:55,760 was, what I was thinking about too. 633 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,280 But for those who don't know what some of these terms are, AB 634 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:04,080 abductor halysis is a muscle that originates and ends in the 635 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:05,560 foot. So they called it an intrinsic 636 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,880 foot muscle and it spans the, on the, the inner arch of the foot. 637 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,920 And so when you are going through walking or running 638 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,040 cycles and your foot is moving through pronation and supination 639 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,400 as it should, that muscle is part of that control of the 640 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,800 arch. So if somebody's having issues 641 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,280 with that, that that could lead to arch pain. 642 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,960 And you'd want to think about how much demand is put on there. 643 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,560 The last thing I want to say, and then I'll kick it back to 644 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,640 you, Matt, is that I have had random shoes. 645 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,760 I'm thinking back to what were those Mizuno models that had the 646 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,280 very limited release, the wind. The wind, yeah, yeah. 647 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,640 So there was something about the compliance and resilience of 648 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,920 those shoes that every time I ran in them, I would get sharp 649 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,520 arch pain. And not because it was a bad 650 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,120 shoe, it's just there was something about the compliance 651 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,840 of that shoe or in the first couple minutes I would get this 652 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:09,600 sharp pain. I'd actually have to hold my 653 00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:11,280 intrinsic. I'd have to do a short foot 654 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:15,440 exercise the entire rest of the run so that I wouldn't have that 655 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,520 sharp arch pain. So I'm wondering if there was 656 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:22,400 just some matching between the foam of the Triumph 21, which 657 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,640 has some similar to properties to that shoe that I was talking 658 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,480 about, the neo, not neo stuff, but the wind. 659 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,400 Maybe it wasn't Neo Wind, I can't remember, sorry. 660 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,520 Yeah, it was Neo. I believe it was Neo Wind, Yeah. 661 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,480 They don't make this shoe anymore, but it's, I, I think 662 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,720 that there's something that sometimes our mechanics plus 663 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,480 even there was some studies done in the past about the vibration 664 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,240 of different foams and how that interacts with the vibration 665 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,000 frequency of your tendons. Like I wonder for some of us if 666 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,440 there's just the right and wrong amount of vibration frequency 667 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,200 that leads to some of that irritation that is very 668 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,640 unfounded in terms of what I was just saying, but just things 669 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,520 that I've used around in my head with. 670 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,520 Also super hard to measure totally. 671 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,400 This is the fun part about research. 672 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,600 He's like, oh, would it be cool this and like, I don't even know 673 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,679 how to measure that. And so maybe somebody does, but 674 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:15,360 you know, do you have the equipment for it? 675 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,920 That's another question. And then were you going to say 676 00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,679 something else? I totally forgot. 677 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:21,360 Great. Well, let's move forward. 678 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,400 Let's keep going. Our next question is from Tommy. 679 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,840 They're asking about ultras, and they're basically asking, do you 680 00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:29,600 have thoughts? Oh, you remember it all right. 681 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,120 It's actually thinking about this this this question. 682 00:34:32,679 --> 00:34:34,639 Oh, so I can read the question still. 683 00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:40,159 Yeah, Tommy's asking. Do you have any thoughts on best 684 00:34:40,159 --> 00:34:42,760 shoes to consider for Rd. Ultra marathons? 685 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,760 They've got a 50 mile and 100 mile Rd. 686 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:48,239 Ultra on their calendar in 2025. Currently running most of the 687 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,000 mile. They're miles in the ASIC Super 688 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,920 Blast too, but wondering if there are others that should 689 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,880 consider and why So do you do you have any of that pop into 690 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,960 your mind? I before I read super Blast, I 691 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,120 was like, honestly, Super Blast would be great. 692 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,400 But let's let's hear what you have to say. 693 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,160 So let me give a story. So for those who don't know, my 694 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:13,600 wife did Pro Rd. ultra marathons for a few years and that 695 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:18,880 culminated in a set to a second place finish at the US 50K 696 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,520 championships, a third place finish at the and the a third 697 00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,560 place finish at the US 100K championships, which Nathan was 698 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:27,240 also there. We had a great time. 699 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,600 Awesome yes. One of the key things that 700 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,240 Regina it's and actually I experienced because part of the 701 00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,600 thing of being married to this person is I did all of her 702 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,640 training with her, which meant 30 mile long runs, which I cried 703 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:40,760 during. I thought I liked running until 704 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:42,120 we did that run. I'm like, I don't know if I like 705 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,760 this anymore, but one of the things that I learned and then 706 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:51,120 and she taught me is the fastest shoe is not actually going to be 707 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:52,680 the best one for ultra marathons. 708 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,400 When Regina was doing the 100K, she actually switched out. 709 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,720 She was wearing a super shoe and then part way through the race, 710 00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:03,600 switch back to a highly cushioned daily trainer because 711 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,280 she's like, I can't do this anymore. 712 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,360 And that's what she ended up finishing far more comfortably 713 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:09,280 in. I know there's a lot of people 714 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,360 out there that love Alpha flies, like stuff like that, but 715 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:15,760 honestly, I would find a comfortable trainer that can 716 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,240 handle long run super well and go with that. 717 00:36:18,240 --> 00:36:19,880 So the Super Blast is really great. 718 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,040 I found during that time that I could not handle super shoes for 719 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,480 that long no matter how stable neutral it was. 720 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:29,920 I really needed a true for me personally, a well cushioned, 721 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,880 not too mushy, definitely solidly stable neutral shoe. the 722 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,360 Super blouse is a great option for that and I honestly think 723 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,640 it's probably one of the best options for Rd. 724 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:42,960 Ultra. It's just because it's a really, 725 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,800 I wish there was a little bit more room. 726 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:49,800 So I would consider 1/2 size up, but it's got us it's it's 727 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,480 stiffer, but not like plate stiff. 728 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,240 It's got good resilient cushioning that doesn't bottom 729 00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:58,040 out on you and it's got a fit that stays really secure. 730 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,480 I just wish, I wish there was a little bit more room and the 731 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,200 durability is great. So that's kind of one of those 732 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,440 ones that I would think about. I would think about those shoes 733 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:10,480 that fit in that category, those that maybe experience a little 734 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:12,520 more foot swelling can handle a softer ride. 735 00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:17,000 The Neo Vista from a Zuno might be a comparable 1 to think 736 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,880 about, but I think shoes in that category are probably going to 737 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,520 be best that like like those ones that you would consider to 738 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,200 be super shoe alternatives, the lot that the majority of the 739 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,520 population would do better. And we talked about this all the 740 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,120 time going, you know, I know you want to run an X shoe, but this 741 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,600 one that appears to be like more of this kind of faster training 742 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,000 model, I think is where I would be looking. 743 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,920 But the key is like the shoe that you're doing the majority 744 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:42,560 of your miles and that you're comfortable with. 745 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,280 That's probably the one you should use for the ultra. 746 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,280 So I have a confession. Are you ready for my confession? 747 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,400 Yeah. I was looking behind me and 748 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,600 started thinking. And then I I wasn't listening to 749 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:53,800 your answer. That's OK. 750 00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,200 You did say, you said one other specific shoe, correct? 751 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,600 What shoe did you say? Do you want to guess? 752 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,080 Well, no, I don't. Yeah. 753 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:04,600 So I was going to ask you. I was going to ask you what you 754 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:06,920 thought about a certain one, and maybe this is it. 755 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,040 I was going to ask you because we talked about in our last 756 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,720 podcast, the Saucony Endorphin Trainer. 757 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,200 Oh, I didn't mention it, but I was thinking about it. 758 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,240 OK. Which one did you mention? 759 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:19,800 I have the Neo Vista. Oh, OK. 760 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,480 No, I did hear that. OK, great. 761 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,000 So just I just curious what you would think about the Endorphin 762 00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:26,720 trainer and where that would fit? 763 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,000 I think that would be a possible good option because it's not the 764 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:32,880 most aggressive thing. It's a little more stiff. 765 00:38:33,720 --> 00:38:36,040 It does have more room than the Super blast too. 766 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,760 So that might be really, really good. 767 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,520 But it again, it's endorphin trainer. 768 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,720 So that shoe has been one of my favorite favorite long range 769 00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:46,640 shoes recently. So yes, I think for the right 770 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:48,760 person, that could also be another option. 771 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,000 That's that's that like super shoe alternative. 772 00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:55,160 I think is where we're like even like super trainers part of the 773 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:56,720 better word. Although I know people were 774 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,320 upset that the Endorphin trainer didn't technically hit that 775 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,560 super trainer category, but those types of shoes, yes. 776 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:06,280 So I think for if it fits your mechanics, yeah, that could be 777 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:07,840 another great one. Nice. 778 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,080 What I didn't want to have happen is me to say. 779 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:11,040 So what do you what do you think? 780 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,040 Do you think the endorphin trainer would be like, dude, 781 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:14,360 that's literally what I just said. 782 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,240 So that's why I was like, wait, what one did you say? 783 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,800 I think you admitted you didn't hear, and I think the list is 784 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,480 literally last, but it would've been fun, yeah. 785 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:26,000 The other shoe that came into my mind was the New Balance SC 786 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,720 trainer, the newest one. I think that for for me, it's 787 00:39:30,720 --> 00:39:33,520 lightweight, so it does not not going to feel like it bogs you 788 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,600 down. It's got a very smooth 789 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,240 transitioning rocker. It's doesn't feel too aggressive 790 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,600 and from a comparison to something like the Super Blast 791 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,360 that's working, I think that for them, I think it kind of fits in 792 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:46,960 that category. It just has a little bit more 793 00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:51,160 compliance to it, but not like an extreme mushiness that some 794 00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,640 of the previous models did. I think that it it it's a bit 795 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:56,840 more balanced when it comes to longer runs. 796 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:58,560 So that's the other one I was going to throw out there with. 797 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,320 If you've got time to try stuff out, that might be one to check 798 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,200 out too. That's another one. 799 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,280 And by the way, what we haven't really meant, I mentioned a 800 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,520 little bit, but fit Rd. Ultra marathons, you are 801 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,320 probably going to want to go 1/2 if not a full size up to 802 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:17,160 accommodate foot swelling. The SC trainer for sure go at 803 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:20,240 least half the size up. I cannot imagine doing a road 804 00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,280 ultra in that shoe. Going true to size I. 805 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,600 Well, it's funny you say that because I'm like, what do you 806 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,120 mean? The shoe felt fit great for me 807 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,360 and had a lot of room. That's because I actually got it 808 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,520 a half size up anyway, so I have it half size up and I love the 809 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:33,840 amount of volume that I have in it. 810 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,600 Yeah, it that's probably why it was working for me. 811 00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:40,040 So you got to think about foot, foot volume is a different 812 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,880 another thing. It's not necessarily shoe, but 813 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,160 like you're probably going to want to go up because your feet 814 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,480 will swell in ways that you have never experienced before. 815 00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:50,280 Yeah, unless they've done these before, they kind of know. 816 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,280 But if they know that like the Super Blast 2 fit is good for 817 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,520 them, then I would say half size up in the SC trainer would also 818 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,640 work because that has for me more room than Super Blast and 819 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,080 true to size. OK, our next question is from so 820 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:12,520 our our media manager Bach FOM just going to name drop him here 821 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,960 because we have to because we love him and he hates when we 822 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:18,080 do. He puts these mailbags together 823 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:19,720 based on all the emails that we get. 824 00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:21,920 So he curates them and he picks them out for us. 825 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:29,280 And this one, I have a sneaking suspicion that it is from his 826 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,280 truly Bach Pham. Sorry Bach, but it says what it 827 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,200 says is an anonymous person. You definitely don't know asks 828 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,440 and then he writes this and if it is bog it cries me up. 829 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,400 Hello, big fan of the pod. Shout out to my guy David who's 830 00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,920 not here today. Sorry David. 831 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,760 I have a brief question. How do you feel about 832 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,160 flexibility in stability shoes and do you think it's good? 833 00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,280 Do you think that it is good designed to feature or a feature 834 00:41:57,280 --> 00:41:58,960 to have that flexibility in them? 835 00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,840 Also, why do flexible 4 foot shoes hate me? 836 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:03,880 Thanks. PS Go Pacers. 837 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,360 That was the giveaway. The two things I gave it away 838 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,200 was him saying my guy David. The second is PS go Pacers. 839 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,240 He's a big Indiana Pacers fan, which is a tough life to live. 840 00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:18,960 But Halliburton is Halliburton is overrated. 841 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:24,680 And I I didn't like him last year for reasons that will go 842 00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,400 untalked about because this is not a basketball podcast. 843 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,360 But Matt, what do you got for this question about flexibility 844 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:38,280 in stability shoes and for if this is Bach, he is somebody who 845 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,440 does have of a flat flatter foot, He doesn't have kind of a 846 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:47,680 maintained arch. Why do you think flexible shoes 847 00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,080 hate him? So let's start at the last part 848 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:52,560 and then go back, work our way back. 849 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,800 So we know that different levels of flexibility or stiffness work 850 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,000 bet better or worse for certain people. 851 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,080 There is an optimal level depending on pace, which can 852 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,920 change for each individual and those it'll vary depending on 853 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:11,360 the mechanics of your foot, how much mobility you have, how much 854 00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:15,080 your body, your foot and ankle can or even up higher can 855 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,120 tolerate going through certain ranges of motion. 856 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,120 So some people may love a flexible shoe because their 857 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,040 joint proprioceptors, meaning the nerves and stuff in their 858 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,440 feet and toes actually like that. 859 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,120 Or the way the mechanics work is they need to be able to get that 860 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:35,280 motion to adequately achieve forward movement, right? 861 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,720 Which is the whole point of running or gait or walking is 862 00:43:37,720 --> 00:43:41,080 getting forwards usually. So to achieve that, different 863 00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:44,120 people need different things. And so some people like more 864 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:47,960 flexibility, some people maybe don't, maybe they don't have 865 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,800 adequate motion at the forefoot. Maybe they don't like various 866 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:56,000 tissues going into more stretch because the more you go and it's 867 00:43:56,760 --> 00:43:59,200 a more flexible forefoot is probably going to get you into 868 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,640 greater degrees of toe extension, meaning your toes are 869 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,960 having to come up. You know, that creates more 870 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:06,440 stretch different tissues and maybe some people like that, 871 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,000 maybe maybe some people don't. So it's not that you need to 872 00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,600 have this or it's I don't know if it's necessarily a good or 873 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,640 bad design feature. It's more about like what works 874 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,320 for you as an individual. So that might be something that 875 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,280 you have to figure going, you know, more flexible 4 foot shoes 876 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:28,480 may not work for me or and maybe some combination like maybe you 877 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,040 know, you need you can tolerate some flexibility, but you still 878 00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,720 have to have an adequate 4 foot rocker to get you that 4 foot or 879 00:44:34,720 --> 00:44:39,080 transition. So I don't know that, but yeah, 880 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,960 so that's something unique to you that they just might not be 881 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:44,040 working. You need something that's 882 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,040 stiffer or more rocker or what have you as to whether 883 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:50,040 flexibility and stability shoes, is that a good design feature or 884 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,920 not? It has to be balanced out with 885 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,600 the with the purpose of the shoe. 886 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,440 So stability shoes are typically more stiff. 887 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,320 They use they're, they do that because stiffer shoes tend to be 888 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,520 more stable. Now there is a point where it 889 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,280 actually starts to go the opposite way where it's when 890 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,560 it's too stiff, it limits motion. 891 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,640 And so you have to think about the shoe as a whole. 892 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:12,960 You can't go in individual piece. 893 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,880 So if you have an area where you've increased flexibility, 894 00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:19,160 you have to make sure that's that's getting you in the right 895 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,920 direction and it's balanced with the stiffening agent. 896 00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,960 So it's not creating something that's that's working against 897 00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,480 you. Like a great example of this. 898 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,880 This is not as common anymore, but I back when I was working in 899 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:31,680 running screws when the dinosaurs were still on the 900 00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:33,360 earth and we're still riding them to the store. 901 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,400 I'm just kidding. Matt. 902 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,160 Great, I got a little. I know. 903 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,400 I'm just trying to see if I can make Nathan laugh a little bit, 904 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,320 but I had this deadpan looking like, oh man, it's not going to 905 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:42,520 land. I. 906 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,280 Know you got me. All right. 907 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,600 So yeah, no, it wasn't that long ago, but not too long ago there 908 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,720 was a lot of stability shoes where they, the midfoot was 909 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:55,320 super narrow and they'd still have a post in there. 910 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,760 And if you have a narrower sole, it inherently makes the shoe 911 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,680 more flexible. I mean, if you add a stiffening 912 00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:01,720 agent, yeah, it goes against that. 913 00:46:01,720 --> 00:46:05,600 But narrower shape, there's less material, it tends to flex more. 914 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,520 Wider, there's more material, there tends to be more bending 915 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,080 stiffness in a variety of directions. 916 00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,000 So it never made sense to me why you're trying to make something 917 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,320 stable and you made it super narrow and just threw a post in 918 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,240 there. Those shoes would still feel 919 00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:21,760 unstable to me. Or like a stability shoe where 920 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,200 they've made it too soft and you might have a stability feature 921 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,800 in in there, but the softness just makes it feel more 922 00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,640 unstable. It's how you balance all these 923 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,840 things. So that was a very long way of 924 00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:35,840 saying I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing to have 925 00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:39,280 flexibility in a stability shoe. It just needs to be balanced so 926 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:43,560 it's still accomplishes how it's what category it's in. 927 00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:46,840 And so that might work really well for someone, it might not 928 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,120 work for others. So it's it will vary on the 929 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:51,760 individual. Awesome. 930 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,320 All right. We have one final question for 931 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,600 the day. This is from Chris Acts asking 932 00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,480 about Hallux Limitis. So Hallux Limitis is the 933 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,840 inability of your big toe to extend upward, which we need a 934 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,640 very good amount of that with as as we run, particularly if you 935 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:08,920 have a flexible 4 foot. Speaking of flexible 4 foot, 936 00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,480 they're basically looking for a shoe that checks a bunch of 937 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,760 boxes for them. They want a shoe that has an 938 00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:20,800 early stage rocker, low amount of toe spring and a wide and 939 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,680 higher volume toe box because they've had they've loved topo 940 00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:26,120 fits. They're finding the Phantom 941 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:31,960 three kind of cuts the a little bit onto their 5th digit ultra 942 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,440 Escalante 4 squishes the foot a little bit more. 943 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,080 They're just looking for something that checks these 944 00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:41,040 boxes early rocker low toe spring high volume toe box. 945 00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,080 I have a couple yeah, I have a couple that I was thinking about 946 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,960 one of them and you're going to have to tell me from a 947 00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,120 construction of the like toe box perspective on what you think 948 00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:55,680 about this. But when I was reading this 949 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,160 question, the fact that the even the phantom is going on to the 950 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,400 5th digit. I wonder if and you this Chris 951 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,040 could just hear me say this and say this is not a problem. 952 00:48:05,560 --> 00:48:08,560 But it makes me wonder if a half size up would be helpful to add 953 00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:11,520 some length to where that taper is starting on the toe box. 954 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:14,440 Because if it's too short, the first thing, if that's going to 955 00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:17,000 get hit and pretty much any shoe is going to be that 5th digit. 956 00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,920 So I if you have a little bit extra room to spare, I would 957 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,320 maybe go half size up. But then to your point about an 958 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,200 earlier stage rocker, I think that you're going to have to 959 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:29,440 make sure again, if you're going half size up that moves that 960 00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,040 apex further towards your toes. So it's really does need to be 961 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,920 an earlier stage. The shoe that came into my mind 962 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:39,160 was the Glide Ride Max from ASICS. 963 00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,600 I think that that shoe in comparison to their other models 964 00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:45,560 does have a higher volume toe box compared to others. 965 00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:48,480 I think that is a solid functioning rocker. 966 00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,440 There is a slight toe spring but nothing like the early models of 967 00:48:51,440 --> 00:48:53,120 it. So I don't necessarily think it 968 00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,880 would be a problem. The only thing is that newest 969 00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,360 model is slightly more flexible than the previous. 970 00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:03,000 That's my hesitation there. But if the Phantom 3 rocker was 971 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:06,880 working for you, then I'm not sure if you'd have problems with 972 00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,200 the rocker of the Glide Ride Max because it is stiffer and a 973 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,280 little bit earlier stage. So that was the first one. 974 00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,920 And then actually going back from like a fit standpoint, 975 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:20,680 going back to Carhoo, there's going out and then looking at 976 00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,360 the Mistari run, we were just talking about the rockered one. 977 00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,760 Maybe their high VO plus that shoe could be something worth 978 00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,640 trying out as well. Those are the two that popped 979 00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:32,520 into my head when I was reading this question. 980 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,840 Do you have others? I think off the top of my head 981 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,320 the Masaria run was another one, the high volume version that I 982 00:49:39,320 --> 00:49:43,800 love because of that wire fit. Like I felt like it felt as wide 983 00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,960 if not even a little bit wider than Ultra, and Topo on the rock 984 00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,760 there is excellent. Ultra Fit is very low volume 985 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,640 right now like that. The most recent models have been 986 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,680 they've been that way, which again isn't bad or good, but if 987 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,040 you if this person is looking for that, it doesn't surprise me 988 00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:04,280 that the Escalante felt tight because it it felt narrow to me. 989 00:50:05,240 --> 00:50:08,080 I felt the same way. A lot of ultra stuff there, some 990 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,920 of their trails trail stuff or they're like really highly 991 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,280 cushioned models, can fit a little bit wider. 992 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,240 But you're totally right that I feel like they're a narrow 993 00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:20,760 anatomic shoe and low volume shoe frequently. 994 00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:25,120 The that's where topo can frequently be helpful as an 995 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:27,600 alternative to creating shoes that are a little bit more 996 00:50:27,720 --> 00:50:32,840 truly, excuse me, wide. Yeah, I was trying to think of 997 00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:38,120 another one. I have one more and it's the on 998 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:42,640 cloud Monster Hyper. I I think that that fit is what 999 00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,600 I think that that is a wider fitting shoe in general. 1000 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,080 It's got a solid stiffer rocker, very flat for in terms of 1001 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,880 construction on top. So I would throw that in the mix 1002 00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,120 if you have the that's an expensive shoe. 1003 00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:57,920 So yeah, that I would have to work from a financial 1004 00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:00,240 perspective, but that's another one to try out. 1005 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,080 Definitely a higher volume for sure. 1006 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:05,280 I struggled with lockdown on that shoe for a while. 1007 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,880 But that might, that might, I mean that might benefit Chris. 1008 00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:10,480 So who knows. Yeah, I think those are really 1009 00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,760 good options. Cool, do you have any others to 1010 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:18,080 add or feel good about that? I I think the shoes that are 1011 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,960 being described are kind of like not quite necessary because the 1012 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,920 Escalante fours are pretty like relatively lower stack height 1013 00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:27,200 shoe. I know it's not low stack 1014 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,640 height, more moderate. Somebody can roast me in the 1015 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,560 comments for that. The Phantom is also not the 1016 00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:35,880 highest stack height shoe. You really want a Rockard shoe. 1017 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:37,840 You're going to have to is you're going to have to go 1018 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,800 higher stack height and I think Topo and Ultra are probably some 1019 00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:44,880 of the few that don't add too much toast spring when you start 1020 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,560 going up that up that high, a lot of other companies do. 1021 00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,280 So I'm totally blanking on a couple models right now. 1022 00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:55,640 But what's that really popular one from Topo that it's like the 1023 00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,480 high high cushioned? Not the Spectre, but the a 1024 00:51:58,480 --> 00:52:01,760 different one. Yeah, not the Super foamed ones, 1025 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:03,880 the the one. That David tested. 1026 00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,920 Yeah, the one. Only David tested it. 1027 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,920 Andrew, I think tested it too. You don't talk about. 1028 00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:11,840 You keep keep talking. Fill the air. 1029 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,840 I'm going to look it up. Trying to fill it man. 1030 00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:19,600 Another one from man. Why am I struggling with? 1031 00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:24,160 Atmos Is it Atmos? Yes, the Topo Atmos yeah, might 1032 00:52:24,160 --> 00:52:26,560 be one to consider because it's higher stack height. 1033 00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,720 So therefore you're going to they're going to be forced to 1034 00:52:28,720 --> 00:52:31,040 have a four foot. Rocker, rocker. 1035 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:32,400 Yeah. I don't remember if it was an 1036 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,960 earlier one or it was a little later and aggressive, but given 1037 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,200 that it was a training model, I'm assuming that it was kind of 1038 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,360 a longer one because you have to if it's going to be for 1039 00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:45,520 training. How about the Glycerin Max from 1040 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,560 a fit standpoint? I ruled out a lot of shoes for 1041 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,840 this question because the fits have not been good. 1042 00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:55,600 But caveat. So I like glycerin Max. 1043 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,920 I think I needed a half size up. However that was not the 1044 00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:04,400 earliest 4 foot rocker 4 foot stiff. 1045 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:07,560 It's late so if you can give that shoe some time to break in 1046 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,240 maybe. However, like the concerns about 1047 00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:13,600 the toe box stuff, you definitely need a half size up 1048 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:16,760 in that shoe. Like I bruised my toe pretty bad 1049 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:18,960 running 100 miles in that shoe. I'm glad I did, but I should 1050 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,200 have listened to you and asked for 1/2 size up earlier. 1051 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,720 So maybe I'm I'm more hesitant with that one. 1052 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,120 OK, cool. Well, this is a fun mailbag. 1053 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,920 Thank you everyone for contributing to kind of what 1054 00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,000 we're doing here because it's fun to be able to interact with 1055 00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:37,320 the things that you all actually want to hear us talk about. 1056 00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:39,400 So thank you for sending your questions. 1057 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,400 You can continue to send other ones at to 1058 00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,360 doctorsofrunning@gmail.com. We always want to thank Scratch 1059 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:50,040 for giving us the fuel to power this podcast if there's been a 1060 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:53,000 really fun partner. And yeah. 1061 00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,240 Dude, the oat milk latte from them. 1062 00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:59,280 Actually really good. Solid. 1063 00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:04,040 I was very hesitant as someone who's been a milk like a a cow 1064 00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,840 and soy milk, mostly cow milk for my entire life. 1065 00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,360 And I'm like oat milk. Like what? 1066 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,880 What's it's actually the bag's gone and I'm gonna order some 1067 00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,120 more. Well, what it what's nice about 1068 00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:19,600 it too from a taste standpoint is so as a kid and still I have 1069 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,600 an extreme sweet tooth. Like I love sweet tooth stuff. 1070 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:27,520 So whenever we would get a special like coffee drink, I get 1071 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:31,000 like the sweetest coffee drink ever as a kid especially. 1072 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,360 And as a kid, I mean like in college, which again, we're not 1073 00:54:34,360 --> 00:54:37,440 that old, but, but I didn't drink any sort of coffee or 1074 00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:39,120 coffee drinks growing up. It just wasn't part of our 1075 00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,280 family culture. Anyway, not important. 1076 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:44,720 But what I like about the oatmeal latte is that it feels 1077 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:47,040 like the Frappuccino that I would always get from them. 1078 00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:48,760 Like, you know, one of the ones in the bottle that are like 1079 00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:50,600 sealed up and you just get them at the gas station. 1080 00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:54,440 But it's way less sweet. So it just like it actually has 1081 00:54:54,720 --> 00:54:59,680 like good flavor to it and just it, it just feels better going 1082 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:01,840 down, sits in the stomach way better than those Frappuccinos, 1083 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:07,360 obviously. Good, like good contents in 1084 00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,520 them, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, I agree. 1085 00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:11,480 That's like the oatmeal latte is delicious. 1086 00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,080 So with that, let's end it for today. 1087 00:55:14,080 --> 00:55:16,720 Thank you all for joining us and we look forward to talking to 1088 00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:17,240 you next time.