1 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,280 Hello everybody, and welcome to the Doctors Running podcast 2 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,760 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discussed the 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:14,920 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,040 feet. Today at the round table, we 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,840 have Doctor Matthew Klein and myself, I'm Nathan Brown, and 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:22,880 today we have kind of a fun episode. 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,280 We're going to be talking about a category that we started kind 8 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:29,880 of coming up with the terminology to describe changes 9 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,200 in footwear construction, to help describe shoes that weren't 10 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:37,040 pure stability shoes but weren't neutral anymore. 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,680 They had some elements that made them a little bit more versatile 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,240 in terms of the people who may be able to handle them. 13 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,200 And we started talking about them as stable, neutral shoes. 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:47,600 So we're going to revisit that topic, kind of our current 15 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,120 thoughts on what that means. And then we're going to pull out 16 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,120 a bunch of shoes that are exemplars of that and then start 17 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:55,720 to pit them against each other in terms of who would work with 18 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:58,520 one versus another, because they're all a little bit 19 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,120 different. Also, today is when we're 20 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:04,680 recording what is today, the 11th of August. 21 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,920 So we had a doctor's running birthday yesterday. 22 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,600 He's not here because he's probably doing birthday things. 23 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:14,200 But David Salas, his birthday was yesterday, which is also my 24 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,000 son Henry's birthday. And then in a couple days it's 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:20,600 my son Ray's birthday. So today at our house, we had a 26 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,480 party for both of our boys with like water stuff. 27 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:27,240 So I'm still in my swimsuit and this is like full of water. 28 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,200 And we made like a makeshift slip and slide. 29 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,920 And so it's full of soap and water, like baby soap. 30 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,840 Anyway, you you had your hand up. 31 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,240 Yeah, and so and Isabella's birthday is actually tomorrow on 32 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,520 the 12th. So we're because tomorrow's 33 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:43,600 going to be in insane because it's my last day at West Coast 34 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,040 and we're flying out that evening. 35 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:48,160 We're doing, we were at the beach all morning doing photos, 36 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:51,280 which is Regina's thing and then she, Isabella of the beach and 37 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,960 we'll do a little birthday party for her tonight as soon as we 38 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:56,960 hop off here, so. Oh, but let's make this quick 39 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:57,480 then. Sorry. 40 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,240 I know. Yeah, we had a birthday party. 41 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:00,800 Yeah, it's August birthday. Yeah. 42 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,880 It's where I wonder what happened nine months ago. 43 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,600 All right, let's move forward. So we're going to talk about the 44 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,160 the idea of stable neutral. So Matt, you were kind of the 45 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,360 one who started to coin this phrase with us. 46 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,800 And can you tell us a little bit about why did you start using 47 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,560 that phrase and what were you seeing that made you use it? 48 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,800 Yeah, so as someone who's generally needed stability or at 49 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,400 least was told they need stability from a young age, I I 50 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,880 did need it. I did, you know, in College, in 51 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,840 PT school, as I learned more about the human body, I start 52 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,440 and, and working in running stores, I really didn't like the 53 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:37,360 traditional stability shoes. I found them clunky, 54 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,000 uncomfortable. Typically the way stabilities 55 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:42,520 used to be made was they just had a medial post and it was 56 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,360 very aggressive and we started losing all the lightweight 57 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,040 stability shoes. So I sat there going, I don't 58 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:48,800 want to have to just be in this category. 59 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,160 I want options. So are there any other 60 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,160 components to shoes that can be utilized that actually still 61 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,000 might make a shoe stable for me with what I was looking for? 62 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,200 So I started experimenting and figuring and realizing like, 63 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,440 hey, this shoe is supposedly neutral, but I, I don't get 64 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:04,000 tired in it. It doesn't give me, I don't get 65 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,320 the normal aches that I normally get with a true neutral shoe. 66 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,160 Like what's going on here? One of the shoes that I 67 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,400 distinctly remember initially was I can't it's, I think it's 68 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:16,440 one of the Adidas solar series, one of the earlier versions of 69 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:18,680 that that had these really nice sidewalls. 70 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,720 And I'm like, dude, this feels not like a post. 71 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,440 Like a medial post is where you usually have like a thicker 72 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:26,920 piece of material on the inner side of the foot. 73 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:29,680 When your foot typically rolls, supposedly rolls in where it's 74 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:32,400 supposed to slow that down. It doesn't stop, but it's 75 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,560 supposed to slow and help help you control the rate of 76 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,240 pronation of the rate at which your ankle is, I don't want to 77 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,040 say collapsing, but moving toward the medial side as a, as 78 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:42,960 a way of shock absorbing or motion. 79 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,760 It's not a pathology by the way, it's a, it's a motion. 80 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,960 It's actually a several motions together, but I realized, hey, 81 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:51,960 there's these components of these shoes that are actually 82 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,800 working really well even and it's making it stable for me 83 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,640 without actually being a stability shoe. 84 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:58,600 I wonder if other people are having this issue. 85 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:02,080 Let's talk about these as options going, hey, you. 86 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,160 A lot of the stability shoes are really clunky and and 87 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:06,800 aggressive. You don't like this. 88 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,680 What other options do you have? And so that's kind of where this 89 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,520 came from when I started talking about it. 90 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:14,960 That's awesome. And just for the listeners too, 91 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,160 you said that, oh, I did need it. 92 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:18,680 You were talking about I needed stability. 93 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,760 Can you explain like what you mean by needing stability? 94 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,120 Because a lot of people either think they need stability or 95 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,600 know that they need stability. Can you talk about that? 96 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,160 That's a tricky thing. So it's a tricky thing to know 97 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,840 whether you need or not because I again, the amount that you 98 00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:35,680 pronate is not necessarily indicative of how much stability 99 00:04:35,680 --> 00:04:37,440 you need. Probably the biggest predictor 100 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,320 is whether you have a stability issue or something like that, 101 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,040 that and you find it really comfortable or as you run in it, 102 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,040 you notice you're like, hey, I feel more comfortable over 103 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,120 longer distance is a nice subjective kind of example of 104 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,600 that compared to more neutral shoes. 105 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,800 The what we have in the evidence is really that one of the few 106 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,800 things is that if you have a history of pronation related 107 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,000 injury, then it's probably then a stability shoe, maybe 108 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,400 something that helps you. And as somebody who's had some 109 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:03,760 Achilles issues, although current evidence on stability 110 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:07,000 shoes and Achilles issues is actually a little murky and 111 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,480 that's kind of being moved away from, but I've definitely had my 112 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,120 fair share of posterior tibialis stuff. 113 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:13,480 So the one of the muscles on the inner side of your foot, that 114 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,720 kind of helps control that, that I've definitely had my fair 115 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:18,840 share of issues with that. And it tends to calm down as I'm 116 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:21,720 in a more stable shoe. So I, I definitely fit the 117 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,480 pattern of, yeah, I have a history of this, you know, yes, 118 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:26,200 it feels more comfortable when I have something that's more 119 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,600 stable, but it just depended on how stable it was, what it 120 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:31,600 looked like. And I found that I didn't do 121 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,360 well in the overly stable shoes, you know, they and a lot of the 122 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,640 aggressive methods. And I'm figured there's got to 123 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,600 be other ways to do this. So that's how I kind of know. 124 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,400 And it's the same way over the years, I've got a lot better in 125 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,360 terms of my strength has dramatically improved. 126 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,640 I've really, really put some time into strengthening my foot, 127 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:51,760 stabilizing my foot. My I don't pronate any 128 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,560 differently. By the way, that was very, I had 129 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:54,520 a friend of mine take a look at that. 130 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,800 I still pronate the same amount and it's quite a bit. 131 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,360 People are like, how are you going forwards? 132 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,440 But what's changed is my strength and capacity to which 133 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,040 is allows me to run and all the shoe, the variety of shoes that 134 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,160 we get, but I could still tell something's really neutral. 135 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,440 I'll start to fatigue it and I'm like I I need to have something 136 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,400 a bit more stable. So what we want to do next is 137 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:17,920 kind of bring out an exemplar shoe that has a lot of the 138 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:21,560 components to its geometry and construction that make it stable 139 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,280 neutral. So I'm going to pull that shoe 140 00:06:23,280 --> 00:06:25,360 out. And then Matt, you're, if you're 141 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,120 up for it, you can just bring people through some of the 142 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,120 components of this shoe and we're going to use there's, 143 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,080 there's lots of good options. We're going to use the Super 144 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,800 Blast too as an exemplar because of some of these components. 145 00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:37,280 So what do you got for us, Matt? Yeah. 146 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,560 So again, we, we stay stable, neutral. 147 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,480 We are not looking at the traditional methods of 148 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:43,200 stability. We're not looking at medial 149 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:45,840 posts, which you know, that thick slab material usually on 150 00:06:45,840 --> 00:06:48,920 the inner side That Super Blast 2 doesn't have that and neither 151 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:50,440 does any of the shoes that aren't here. 152 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:53,000 It doesn't have some kind of what's called a medial wedge 153 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,080 where the midsole is set up where the inner side of the shoe 154 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,280 is much firmer and then tapers off to the lateral side. 155 00:06:59,280 --> 00:07:01,840 It doesn't have that. In fact, I don't think anything 156 00:07:01,840 --> 00:07:04,200 has that. Any Yeah, I feel like the Brooks 157 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,280 Ravenna used to do that. Yeah, there was a post there 158 00:07:07,280 --> 00:07:08,080 somewhat. Yeah, they did. 159 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:09,480 Somewhat. They did. 160 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:12,560 They did like a the. Bongo, the Vongo version five 161 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,120 from New Balance did have that and it worked really well and 162 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:16,720 they changed it so it doesn't have that. 163 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:17,680 I don't think that exists. Huh. 164 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,440 So yeah, it they, it will not have those kind of more 165 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:24,960 traditional components. The things that we typically say 166 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,080 make it stable neutral are things that are not going to be 167 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:29,880 aggressive. But having a wider sole is 1 168 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,720 certain thing and certainly a midfoot and heel that doesn't 169 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,160 narrow too much. So you often can see people with 170 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,480 the shoes that the heel, the midfoot tapers a lot or the sole 171 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,720 is very narrow, right? Like the the Tri new just an 172 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:43,960 example of that. It's not terrible, but it's just 173 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:45,960 not enough for it to be stable neutral because that midfoot 174 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,440 still is a little bit tapered. I know a lot of the Super shoes 175 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:51,240 typically do that and those those can be really good 176 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,440 examples of a heavy taper. This is the Zen running. 177 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,680 Oh, the Zen running, yes, it's a good example. 178 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,360 Yeah. So you see how nothing against 179 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,680 that shoe, but very tapered midfoot. 180 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,000 And then that is compared to something that has a much wider 181 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:06,920 midfoot. A wider base is in, has a wider 182 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,440 base of support typically means they're going to be a little bit 183 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,120 more resistance to motion in either one of those directions. 184 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,760 Now I want to clarify, I'm not looking when we say stable 185 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,320 neutral, we're not looking to bias you in a certain direction 186 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,360 with traditional stability measure ways often companies 187 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:22,840 were trying to force you laterally. 188 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,240 We're looking get shoes that do this on both sides to be totally 189 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,880 honest, so we want to see wider white width on both the medial 190 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,000 and lateral sides. The mid foot's probably a really 191 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,840 early good place to look at this. 192 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,200 Another method you can look at is going up higher and these 193 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:39,880 have gotten more prevalent. I don't know if it's because 194 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:42,840 we've talked about them or they and four companies have known 195 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:45,800 about this apparently for a long time how they've decided to use 196 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,120 this different story. But side walls or kind of like, 197 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:50,800 you know, when you go bowling, right, you get the like the 198 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:52,960 bumper lanes. If you if you're like me and are 199 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:55,440 not not a good bowler, you know, that's kind of what these are 200 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,720 with the midsole actually comes up higher around the foot so 201 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:00,560 that if you're rolling your own direction, you're just going to 202 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:03,160 roll into the midsole and it's usually on both sides. 203 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:05,560 So the Super Blast does do a really good job with that, and a 204 00:09:05,560 --> 00:09:07,800 lot of other shoes do. The only challenge with this is 205 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,040 some people don't do well with these because they can cause 206 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,040 some rubbing. But for those who find this 207 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:14,880 really good as a kind of central guidance methods, it's just a 208 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,320 really nice subtle way that'll kind of keep you in the middle. 209 00:09:17,560 --> 00:09:21,480 If you are, if you're watching on YouTube, I'm, I have my hand 210 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,480 down into the shoe and then I'm putting my other finger on the 211 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,320 midsole where my finger goes down to when it's so like where 212 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:31,760 the foot would sit and it's a good, you know, 3/4 of an inch 213 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:33,280 to an inch. Those things are tall. 214 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,560 The. Foam, so it's a lot more foam 215 00:09:35,560 --> 00:09:38,280 that it looks like that it actually is underneath your 216 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:39,360 foot. There's still a lot of foam. 217 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:42,800 It's less obviously, but. And this got really, this got 218 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,880 really popular with a lot of the maximal models where because the 219 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,480 platform was so high, a lot of the companies said, hey, we 220 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,600 should probably have the foot sit in the midsole so it doesn't 221 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,480 roll off the platform. And that's where a lot of the 222 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,000 side walls are getting really, really popular. 223 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,320 So that very, very common method now, especially with super 224 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,400 maximal shoes because you got to keep the foot on the platform 225 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,640 somewhere. Anything else that defines 226 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:05,560 stable neutral to you. Yeah, I'd say the other thing is 227 00:10:05,560 --> 00:10:08,680 usually midsole stiffness. So stiffness isn't just 228 00:10:08,680 --> 00:10:11,400 longitudinal front to back. Everybody talks about plates and 229 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,200 they want the stiffest whatever. It can also be front side to 230 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,280 side into lateral, lateral medial stiffness like the herb, 231 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:21,880 I guess longitude. What's the term torsional 232 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:23,000 torsional? I'm looking for the term 233 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,520 torsional rigidity, right. How rigid torsionally is the 234 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:28,920 shoe? The more it is not always but 235 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:31,600 typically the more resistance got to give you to lateral 236 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,120 medium motion. So that can be and that not just 237 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:35,520 a plate. By the way, the Super glass is a 238 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,360 great example of a shoe that no plate, but still fairly stiff 239 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:41,880 laterally. And so that can torsionally and 240 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,440 so that can add some mild guidance to a lot of different 241 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:47,480 shoes. So a lot of different components 242 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:48,960 you can look for. And you, the nice part is 243 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:50,720 there's enough variety out there that we're going to talk about 244 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,760 that you're going to find something that that matches kind 245 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:55,960 of exactly what you're looking for rather than the pass through 246 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:58,760 as, oh, I can only find a stiff, clunky stability issue. 247 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,120 Not saying that all stability issues are, but you've got 248 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:02,560 options now. When you when when you 249 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:04,160 understand what works for you and what doesn't. 250 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:06,720 Yeah. I would say the only other thing 251 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:11,360 I would add is, and it's not cut and dry, but it's the compliance 252 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,040 of the foam too. So if you have an extremely 253 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,360 compliant foam, it doesn't matter how wide it is, if your 254 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,760 foot is sinking into it, your body is going to need to control 255 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:20,960 that. So oftentimes the shoes that we 256 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,320 end up calling stable neutral have at least, you know, a 257 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,560 moderate amount of compliance, not extremely compliant. 258 00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:31,920 They're they're more on the moderate to firmer end of things 259 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,080 just because that that does add to the torsional stiffness as 260 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,040 well. But also just again, if you're 261 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,000 really sinking into shoes, there's one on our list that 262 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,400 kind of breaks that mold, but the rest of them have a slightly 263 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,160 firmer foam. You'll kind of notice. 264 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:48,160 And again, that's just because if you have a lot of movement of 265 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,880 your foot into that foam, that's where you can run into less 266 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:54,720 structure and stability. And I would, I would add to that 267 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:58,480 going a lot of times these very soft shoes that have all these 268 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,720 components, yeah, your foot will kind of be kind of locked in. 269 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,120 But it's not just about your foot. 270 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:05,760 It's also about your hip, which also has a significant number of 271 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,800 stabilizer muscles. And those have to work super 272 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,720 hard with the really, really soft shoes because that can and 273 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,200 then what happens up the chain can drive stuff down the chain 274 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,680 and vice versa. So it it it's it can still kind 275 00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:20,680 of fall off the stable neutral category if it's too the 276 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,800 Schnitzel is too compliant or soft. 277 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,480 Yeah, cool. Well, I think that's a great 278 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:28,840 rundown. I mean, we basically have some 279 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,040 main components. We have some widening of the 280 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:33,920 midfoot on the on the sole contact at the ground. 281 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:36,400 It's just like a wide base from front to back that's pretty 282 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,440 evenly spread. It's not biasing you immediately 283 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:41,800 or laterally. You have the side walls that are 284 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,840 going to be guiding you either on either side. 285 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:47,000 Guide is such a light term that we're saying here, you know, 286 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,960 guide is we don't really know what's happening for each 287 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:52,080 individual person. And then you talk about 288 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,800 torsional stiffness is going to be a little bit higher typically 289 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:57,640 and you're going to have usually a little bit firmer of a foam. 290 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,000 So yes, the Super blast has, you know, flight foam turbo plus, 291 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:05,200 which is like their peeba based foam. 292 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:09,440 However, it's from the Peeba based foam realm. 293 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,040 It's one of the firmer ones. And so that's where you see some 294 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,840 of that torsional stiffness and you're not sinking deep into 295 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:16,400 this. They did soften it a little bit 296 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:20,400 compared to the version one. And so in that way it it's maybe 297 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,360 a little bit less stable neutral, but it still falls into 298 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:25,960 that category for sure. Yeah, it does all the components 299 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:28,280 well enough that it that that's I did not. 300 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:30,440 Still don't find that a soft shoe to be honest. 301 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:32,840 It's a great same. Great one, but definitely not 302 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:35,600 soft. I I like it though if it was too 303 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:37,240 soft it wouldn't. I feel like it wouldn't fulfill 304 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,520 its purpose of being able to handle workouts and stuff. 305 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,320 Like right now this would be my half marathon race shoe because 306 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:48,120 I don't want anything more aggressive and I've been having 307 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:49,800 the foot stuff and it's happy with my feet. 308 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:52,120 It's light, so I could pick it up at least a little bit. 309 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,880 So it's a good shoe. All right, So what we're going 310 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,880 to do next, I'm going to take two shoes that we would we we 311 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,360 have categorized into the stable neutral realm. 312 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,880 And we're going to talk about the distinctions between them 313 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,480 and why you might choose one over another. 314 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:07,120 So Matt, I'm going to kick it off to you. 315 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,200 The first two that I'm sending your way are the Brooks Ghost 316 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:18,360 Max 2 and the On Cloud Runner 2. So what do you think about these 317 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,920 two shoes and where they fit? That's a great question. 318 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,440 I'm going to start with on since I just did a run on them this 319 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,560 morning and really like them. So the on cloud, I actually do 320 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:32,680 have those with me. So the on cloud Runner 2 does 321 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,800 the kind of sidewall action where they've also got a heel 322 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,600 clip in the rear foot that goes into the mid foot that comes up 323 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:39,800 high. And this is noticeable. 324 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,520 So as someone who needs a little bit of heel and mid foot 325 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,600 stability, this actually worked really, really, really well for 326 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,880 me where again, both sides kind of keeps you centered without 327 00:14:47,880 --> 00:14:49,360 being really stiff. The other thing we forgot to 328 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,040 mention is geometry is the more a shoe facilitates you rolling 329 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,400 forwards, that can also be something that can be very, very 330 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,320 helpful to degrees. So I found sidewall, especially 331 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,920 heel and the clip in the heeled midfoot did really, really well 332 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:05,320 for me. The midfoot does taper just a 333 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,960 little bit, but I didn't find it to actually be too. 334 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:09,720 I'm sorry, I'm not holding this up so people can see this. 335 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,560 I didn't find it to be too bad and it's also just a teeny bit 336 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,400 towards originally stiff in the rear foot and mid foot. 337 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,520 Not so much the forefoot. There's more flexibility. 338 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:21,520 So it rolls really, really well, but I find those components 339 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:22,880 actually work really, really well. 340 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,760 If you need kind of more guidance in the rear foot, if 341 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,000 you need more in the forefoot, the forefoot doesn't have much 342 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,240 sidewalls, a little more flexible. 343 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,160 But if you need that in the back, the Cloud Runner too did a 344 00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,720 really, really good job, which is very different from the Ghost 345 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,000 Max too, because I feel like that shoe is like is built to be 346 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,120 around the category, stable neutral. 347 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:42,920 Have you got a chance to run on the Ghost Max 2? 348 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,000 Yeah, I've got a I've got full testing miles on this shoe at 349 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:50,080 this point. I, I, which is a miracle. 350 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,720 Look how white it still is. I just haven't ran in the rain 351 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,240 or anything. Look how clean that looks. 352 00:15:56,440 --> 00:16:01,440 But yeah, I think that all of the things that we defined this 353 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,400 thing has, you know, it's got the side walls. 354 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:09,680 It has a very firm foam like it is not honestly, it's not that 355 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:13,080 fun to run in. I like I don't want to say that, 356 00:16:14,520 --> 00:16:17,320 but it's it's not like exciting to run in, but that doesn't mean 357 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,240 it's a bad shoe. We've talked about boring being 358 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,040 OK. This is definitely on the like 359 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:24,680 kind of boring realm. But knowing that they're trying 360 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,320 to have it operate off of the rocker a little bit more, they 361 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,800 have a little bit more stiffness through the forefoot, which 362 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,480 results in more torsional stiffness both in the forefoot 363 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,000 and the rear foot. So I was going to say the same 364 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:35,960 thing. If you're somebody who's just 365 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,160 looking for some rear foot stability, which might might 366 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,800 look like somebody who's having like that soreness on the inside 367 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,320 of the ankle itself, this the cloud runner could be a great 368 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,360 option. But if you're somebody who's 369 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,840 having a little bit more issues in the midfoot and the forefoot, 370 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,680 so down towards the toes or like the further part of the arch, 371 00:16:54,120 --> 00:16:57,200 probably something that has a little bit more 4 foot rocker 372 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,080 and stiffness is going to be a little bit more of your friend. 373 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,200 So I think that's the biggest distinction for these two 374 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:05,240 because they both have a relatively boring foam in them. 375 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:07,720 So that is the similarity between these two. 376 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,040 I would say in my opinion, the Cloud runners a little bit more 377 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,599 lively. It's got a little bit I don't 378 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:15,800 you you had said that today's years turned into a workout 379 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:17,040 right before we started recording. 380 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:19,520 It turned into a workout, but part of that was I just wanted 381 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:21,359 to get it done. So it was that too. 382 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:23,720 But yeah, I mean, I was able to I would not be able to do that 383 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,720 in the Ghost Max 2. So they got a little more roll. 384 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,400 I I'm glad you said that. I I feel like we need to do a 385 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,560 like an episode on the Ghost Max 2 where I yes, it checks off all 386 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,360 the boxes as a stable neutral shoe. 387 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,440 It's stiff, it's got side walls, it's got a really wide base. 388 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,880 I think it's it's actually doing a better job of being stable 389 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,400 neutral than the prior version, which was definitely more lively 390 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,080 and surprising. But the the thing about this is 391 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,320 this can go a little too far where I feel like the stiffness 392 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,920 has gotten too much where to me actually heels pretty clunky. 393 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:55,000 And so I found the ghost Max. Yeah, not. 394 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,760 Really the lack of bevels. I found the ghost Max 2 to be so 395 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:00,600 stable neutral. I think it actually functions 396 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,200 better as a walking shoe. And I feel like people who like 397 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,240 the ghost Max are going to be disappointed in this, but people 398 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,240 that like the dyad are going to be very happy with this. 399 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,360 This is returned to being your hey, you want a stable neutral 400 00:18:12,360 --> 00:18:13,640 shoe? You're someone that has like a 401 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,120 flatter arch but want something stable or you're somebody that 402 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:18,880 needs a very orthotic friendly shoe. 403 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:21,640 This is definitely going to be it, but it can go too far where 404 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:25,240 it starts to get a little clunky and that's where, again, Ghost 405 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,320 Max definitely has gone back to being two, has been an 406 00:18:27,720 --> 00:18:30,520 orthopedic shoe in my opinion. Do you want to know something 407 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,000 interesting? I actually have the shoe right 408 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,600 here. It's a shoe that's technically a 409 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:39,080 stability shoe, but really from what I know about the shoe, and 410 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,480 you can correct me if I'm wrong or anyone else can too. 411 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,360 Really they the only way that they really created the 412 00:18:44,360 --> 00:18:46,720 stability was through geometric elements. 413 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,320 And that's the guide from Saucony because, because what 414 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,400 they did is look at how wide this thing is. 415 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,520 And so like when I think about the ghost Max to I actually 416 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,400 thought about the guide, the guide 17 because of how wide it 417 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,840 is. It's got kind of a pretty firm 418 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,120 foam. The only thing is even the 419 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:08,480 guides a little bit more flexible through the forefoot. 420 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:11,960 It has a little bit more torsional stability, but it's so 421 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:13,720 wide. That's where they really created 422 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:18,600 the structure and some really big side walls, but they just 423 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,800 have a better geometry. Like this heel has that really 424 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,840 nice bevel whereas in comparison to the Ghost Max. 425 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:27,240 They just get flat. So if they if they can, if they 426 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,040 want to make this for walkers, I agree with you. 427 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,480 Like it works great for that. If they want it to be more of 428 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,440 like a true pure trainer, they got it. 429 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,200 They got to clean up the heel for that clunkiness, especially 430 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,160 since it's not built to go fast. So you're kind of sitting back 431 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:43,200 on that a little more. We got to write that review. 432 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:47,840 On the yeah I've. Been putting that off. 433 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:50,360 It's like I got so we got so much things going on, right. 434 00:19:50,360 --> 00:19:52,640 Now, I guarantee Bach is listening to this being like, 435 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,080 Nate, why haven't you written this yet? 436 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:55,280 Because I did ask you to do that. 437 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,440 And I'm like, I'm really sorry, really sorry, but we'll get it. 438 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:00,880 We'll get it, OK. Yeah. 439 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,600 Anything else on those two? Cloud Runner 2 and Gloss Max? 440 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,480 I would also say the ghost Max is a good example of you can 441 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,800 make a shoe really, you know, stiff and stuff like that. 442 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,920 But if things can go a little too far, another like if you get 443 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,040 shoes that have all these elements but like have like 444 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,040 excessive like sole flare. How did we forget about this 445 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,800 Sole flares the shoe. The sole coming out in One 446 00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:22,480 Direction can also create resistance. 447 00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:25,040 So there's a lot of soul flare in the side, which also talks 448 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,760 about sole width can also be something if that goes too far 449 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,400 and you hit that, that can also pivot you the other direction. 450 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,800 So all these things can definitely be overdone. 451 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,160 Sidewalls not as much except for the blisters, but they can be 452 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,040 overdone in a way that it makes the shoe clunky. 453 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,600 So kind of finding that perfect balance is really important. 454 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,240 Here's a great example of what differentiates the guide is a 455 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,040 true stability shoe from what we talked about with stable 456 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,840 neutral. So when you look at the guide, 457 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,280 if you're on YouTube, you can see that on this side, the soul 458 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,800 flaring that Matt just talking about is pretty robust. 459 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:01,760 It's pretty big. And then on the other side, it's 460 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:04,520 a little bit more flush with the outside of the shoe. 461 00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,720 So they have more of a flare on the medial side, which is trying 462 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,240 to bias you away from going into that medial direction. 463 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,680 Whereas when you look at the stability, the stable neutral 464 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,760 shoes that we're talking about, like the Ghost Max, you're not 465 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,480 going to see that biasing. It's going to be the same amount 466 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,480 of flaring on the medial and lateral side. 467 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,640 You're going to see the same thing with the Cloud Runner two, 468 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,960 You're going to see the same thing with the Super Blast. 469 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,080 So you know that's you're just going to get the same amount of 470 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,720 flaring on both sides because it's not trying to bias you one 471 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,600 way or the other. And you mentioned something 472 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:38,360 else, there's also some internal geometry, something called I 473 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:40,560 believe it's, they call it center path technology. 474 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,480 But there's the way the inner part of the shoe is set up 475 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:46,480 varies from what I understand. Again, ASICS is doing the sock 476 00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:49,400 and he's doing this couple of companies is where how you land, 477 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,760 how the internal part of the shoe compresses is going to try 478 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,680 to keep you in the middle. All right, so we're going to 479 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,120 move on to our next pairing here and it's two more Rd. shoes that 480 00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:01,760 maybe couldn't be much different from or couldn't be more 481 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,160 different from each other. One is the on running cloud 482 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,600 monster Hyper and the other one is the New Balance more version 483 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,440 5. And so I I can talk about these 484 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:15,520 a little bit first here. So I mean, you have the Cloud 485 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:21,920 Monster Hyper, which is, you know, I was going to say which 486 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,560 is really expensive was going to be the first thing that I said 487 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,360 about it. David and I fight about this 488 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:29,040 shoe all the time because I think it's good, but I think 489 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,520 that there are cheaper shoes that function as well as if not 490 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,760 better. Namely, I would say the SC 491 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,080 trainer V3 for me feels very similar to the Cloud monster 492 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,400 hyper in terms of like the function in the feel, except it 493 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,880 feels lighter and feels a little bit bounce here and is I think 494 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,440 20 or $40 cheaper, maybe 2020. So it's cheaper. 495 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,480 I don't know. So I'm like, what the heck, why? 496 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,000 Why would you not go that way? But one reason would be maybe 497 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:01,640 that this one is a little bit more stable for in that stable 498 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,880 neutral category. And part of that's because it's 499 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:09,960 got this casing of Helion foam and it and then it only has that 500 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,240 inner core of their Peeba based foam. 501 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:16,800 And so you have this really firm outer layering and then a softer 502 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,120 internal core, which is another element that we see in a lot of 503 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:22,680 stable neutral shoes that we didn't give in the overarching 504 00:23:23,120 --> 00:23:25,800 description. And what happens there is if you 505 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,240 have the path of least resistance, the body's going to 506 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:30,800 probably go that way or at least try to go that way. 507 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,640 And so if you have a lot of firmness that is hard to push 508 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,240 into on the outsides on both the medial and lateral sides, but 509 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,400 you have this really soft core, it's going to facilitate you or 510 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,640 in theory facilitate you to going towards the center. 511 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,560 So you have that with the on cloud Monster hyper just because 512 00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:50,800 of the PBA based foam that is significantly softer on the 513 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,800 inside. Whereas come over to the New 514 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,600 Balance more V5. Am I saying 5? 515 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:01,680 Yeah, 5. OK, great. 516 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,160 With the five. This is another one that we 517 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,320 almost used is our like definition shoe of stable 518 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:11,720 neutral because it's got a ton of soul flaring on both sides 519 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,280 has it stays wide through the midfoot and it's really not 520 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,320 pushing you either way. It's got side walls built up on 521 00:24:18,360 --> 00:24:21,320 the wheel and the lateral side huge ones like this is again, 522 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,320 you know, if I'm putting it for the for the people on YouTube my 523 00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:28,520 my fingers a good inch below where the side walls coming in. 524 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,560 So and you have some side walls in the forefoot as well expands 525 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,920 the whole way. The only difference here, and 526 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,920 this is where I think the difference between these is 527 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,040 biggest is that the more is a little bit more flexible through 528 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,240 the forefoot. Not much. 529 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,160 I'd say it's a big difference from version four. 530 00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,880 It was really flexible in the forefoot. 531 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,480 Now it's got a little bit of rigidity, but the foam is a 532 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,360 little bit more compliant and soft. 533 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,480 So I know we mentioned that these you, these stable neutral 534 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,960 shoes usually have a firmer foam. 535 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:58,960 This is the one exception to that rule. 536 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:03,000 So if you're someone who wants a shoe that is giving you a little 537 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,360 bit of that guidance and structure and you know that you 538 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:08,880 fatigue like Matt does, if you're in a true neutral shoe, 539 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,400 but you want that soft, more plush experience, this would 540 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,920 probably be the direction you want to go. 541 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,360 Whereas if you're trying to look for that, I would say like long 542 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:20,920 run, steady pace stuff, that's where the cloud monster hyper is 543 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,200 going to come in. And it it really doesn't give 544 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,560 you any of that pop until you get to the forefoot. 545 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,280 The heel is going to be pretty stiff because of how much of the 546 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,200 EDA foam that they have back here. 547 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,360 But it's you get a little bit of pop from the front, definitely 548 00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:36,640 more stiff and operates on that rocker. 549 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,480 So if you you want a rocker and if you want that kind of like 550 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,720 steady paced like daily trainer, you can go towards the hyper. 551 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,920 If you want that really plush experience it with a little bit 552 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,760 more flexibility in the forefoot, I would go towards the 553 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,120 More V5. I would totally agree with you 554 00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:56,000 without the analysis that the more the more serious has always 555 00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,360 been fairly stable neutral just because they do. 556 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,640 The width, the sidewalk, the geometry, all that stuff is done 557 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,520 really, really well. I I will say that some of the 558 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,680 the newest version is just a me feels a little bit softer than 559 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,920 the I love version four. Version four was another like 560 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,840 definition stable neutral shoe. Version five is a little bit 561 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:16,480 softer and the cloud monster to me. 562 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,360 Yeah, I also fought with David over that shoe where I was like 563 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,440 I like on, I didn't fully want to like that shoe, but it's 564 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,040 grown on me quite a bit as something like I just again, 565 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,080 once it breaks in, I do like a little firmer ride. 566 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,960 The way the geometry sets up just works very, very well for 567 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,160 me. It's just it's just my only 568 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:35,680 issue. It just fits slightly long. 569 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,800 There's a lot of on shoes have been fitting me just like 570 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,800 weirdly long. And then I I transitioned to the 571 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,360 four foot kind of weird. So that's my only caveat with, 572 00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,960 but it does it does do the stable Nutra stuff really well. 573 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,200 Cool. So what we want to do now is 574 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,320 talk about two trail shoes. Matt has one, I have one that 575 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:55,000 fit into the what we think is the stable neutral category, 576 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,040 though I would also say a lot more trail shoes fit into this 577 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,200 category because of the type of terrain they're putting people 578 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,000 on. But Matt, which is the one that 579 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,880 you have and why do you put it in that category? 580 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,040 Yeah, so a. Recent I was nice, I was lucky 581 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,000 enough to get invited up to a running warehouse event. 582 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,080 And if you look on their YouTube, you can see some of the 583 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,520 the trail stuff that we did with Adidas and we I was lucky to get 584 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,240 a pair of the new Agravic 3, which I'll be honest, I there 585 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:23,000 was a a situation where the bunch of the influencers or 586 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,320 social media people randomly were had a shoe given to them. 587 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,040 So is it the agravic 3, the agravic speed and then the speed 588 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:31,520 ultra, which is their trail super shoot? 589 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,960 And I I hadn't tried the Super shoe and I really wanted to try 590 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,920 it. And then I realized that thing 591 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,280 has the most narrow mid foot of all these shoes. 592 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,080 I'm not going to do well in it. And I was a little upset when I 593 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,240 got the gravic. It was like kind of like the 594 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,160 least quick of them. But I was so thankful once I put 595 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:51,000 them on because this is a shoe that really stiff, very large, 596 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,680 very good, good side walls, people that need some medial 597 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,880 stability. The mid foot does narrow a 598 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,240 little bit like many Adidas Terex shoes do. 599 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,360 But the side walls and the stiffness did so well and the 600 00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:05,880 firmness that didn't bug me And actually the terrain was super, 601 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:08,640 super technical and I'm very happy I had that or I would have 602 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:10,640 rolled an ankle. And I've continued to use the 603 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,520 shoe and it's just got those components are integrated 604 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:18,040 really, really well and kind of a more affordable trail model. 605 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,480 So I really you enjoyed it, which is good. 606 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,240 Because the the availability of true stability shoes on the 607 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:28,240 trail is lower than you can find in Rd. shoes. 608 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,400 And so for me, the one that I wanted to talk about was the 609 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,960 GOAT, the speed GOAT from Hoka. And it's again, this is another 610 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:40,120 definition, stable neutral shoe. There is a lot of torsional 611 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:46,160 stiffness here and I have rolled my right ankle too many times to 612 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:51,000 count and and when I've worn the speed got five or the six now 613 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,640 I've zero ankle like rolls and I when I roll, it's not like I'm 614 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,480 out because I get injured. They just turn over because of 615 00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,520 significant sprains that I've had in the past. 616 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,600 Fun fact about your ankle ligaments is that once you 617 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:06,600 sprain them, two things change. One is the length will probably 618 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,520 always be longer than they were before you sprain them. 619 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,600 And the second thing that happens is that the nerves that 620 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,080 innervate those ligaments that usually tell you where your 621 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,960 ankle is in space, they also are less responsive to change in 622 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,720 position. So if you sprain your ankle 623 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,680 once, that's why you're more likely to sprain it again and 624 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,600 why you need to do a lot of movement retraining and balance 625 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,160 and proprioceptive training to and strengthening of the muscles 626 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,400 to create dynamic stability where there used to be passive 627 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,800 stability. That's a fun little fact for 628 00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,160 you. But with the, with the speed 629 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,960 GOAT super stiff, the foam is much firmer than their Rd. 630 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,040 models. And when I'm on the trail, I 631 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,480 actually love firmer shoes anyway. 632 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,840 And it's because you're on that more compliant changing surface. 633 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,080 And so I just want something that I just know where my foot's 634 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:54,840 going to be. So I think it just does a great 635 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,920 job. It's got nice flaring through 636 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,280 the heel, stay super wide through the forefoot. 637 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,440 And the, the reality is that they use thicker lugs for pretty 638 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,800 much all trail shoes, which is going to, to add another layer 639 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,160 of that stability and structure through the platform itself. 640 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,400 So big fan of the speed Goat. And I would say if you're 641 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:16,880 somebody who tends to lean towards stability shoes on the 642 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,480 road and you're looking for something for the trail, I think 643 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,320 the speed Goat is a solid option. 644 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,920 The only consideration if you're someone who's really used to 645 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,760 high drop shoes, the obviously the speed Goat is going to be 646 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:29,200 lower drop. And so that would be your 647 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,880 consideration because this is down at that 5mm drop level. 648 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:35,720 Definitely agree with you the. Speed Goat is like an OG like 649 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:37,360 stable neutral trail shoe for sure. 650 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,040 And there used to be, there used to actually be some trail 651 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,680 stability shoes. Like I know there's a trail 652 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,040 version. There used to be a trail version 653 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,840 of the guy. There used to be a socketing 654 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:49,200 guy. There used to be a trail version 655 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:54,840 of the GT2000. I don't know if those will 656 00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,920 continue, but that's kind of the go to a way. 657 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,320 If you're going to get those, that's where it's going to 658 00:30:58,320 --> 00:30:59,360 happen. Great. 659 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,720 So what we're going to do now is there are four shoes that I have 660 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,720 out, so I'm going to pull two at a time. 661 00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,200 Still. These we would put on the fence 662 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,880 of being stable neutral and we'll talk about them. 663 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,560 And the reason we pulled them out is because there are some 664 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,920 unique elements to these shoes or they're just ones that are 665 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,200 newer to the market and people may be asking questions. 666 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:27,080 So the 1st 2:00 are the Brooks Hyperion Max and then the second 667 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,360 is the Hoka. Oh my gosh, Sky Flow. 668 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,880 I almost called it the other shoe that I'm going to take out 669 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,840 the Hoka Sky Flow. So Matt, how would you talk 670 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,280 about these two shoes in terms of their how close they are to 671 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,520 stable neutral and what makes them unique so both? 672 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:45,840 These have some of the stuff we talked about in terms of both 673 00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:48,800 them as you can see looking for those of you on YouTube can see 674 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,920 just the wire base on the bottom. 675 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,760 You also something interesting that you have kind of like a 676 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,720 lack of material at the very middle. 677 00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:58,800 So again, path of least resistance, right, you're going 678 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,920 to typically go in that area. So those central grooves can 679 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,600 sometimes be a way that can be helpful to keep you a little 680 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,200 centered. How much those actually impact 681 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,240 you is a is a great question. Again, mid foot is also quite 682 00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:14,360 wide on those and they're both stiff and have pretty solid side 683 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:15,920 walls. So I have found them to be 684 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,040 fairly good. The sky flow does a little bit 685 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:22,040 better for me, although believe it's a what is it is a super 686 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,440 critical Eva. It is just a little bit soft. 687 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,880 So the soft, this is a shoe that to me was a little bit soft and 688 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:29,280 kind of negated some of that stuff. 689 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,560 So if you're sensitive to soft shoes, this may not be as the 690 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,920 best option. Whereas I found the Hyperion Max 691 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,040 2 to be fairly stiff. The plate that's in there, 692 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:39,840 again, don't discount something 'cause it's not carbon, right? 693 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,400 It's that I believe Teabax plate, plastic plate, some kind 694 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:45,840 of plastic. It's some kind of plastic. 695 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,200 It's. Very, very stiff and very rigid. 696 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,400 So I would, I almost found that to be too rigid to be honest, 697 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,000 and it really kept me locked the middle. 698 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,480 But if that's something you like, I would say of the two of 699 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,120 those, the Hyperion Max two kind of wins out. 700 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,360 And hopefully that makes Andrea happy, because I know that she 701 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:04,240 really likes this too, I think. One of the things about the 702 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,000 Hyperion Max Two is the plate design as well where it's not 703 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:12,000 just embedded within it does have some spanning all the way 704 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:15,600 to the lateral side as well. So it does have a little bit of 705 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,160 girth to it and some width, which is going to add some more 706 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:20,880 of that torsional stability and structure on the outside of the 707 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:22,760 shoe. Because if there's if the 708 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,720 plate's only in the middle, sometimes you can veer off to 709 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,960 the medial or lateral side to avoid the plate a little bit, 710 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,400 especially if you don't have the stability or the the strength to 711 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,080 be moving straight forward. The other thing about this shoe 712 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,560 that can be a struggle for some people is it has a big amount of 713 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,960 toe spring in the forefoot. And because of how stiff rocker 714 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,160 it is, it can vault you forward fast. 715 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,280 So if you're not used to toe spring, if you're not used to as 716 00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,400 a more aggressive rocker on a stiff platform, this probably 717 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,760 won't function like a very stable shoe for you. 718 00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,320 And that's why we're kind of on the fence about it because it's 719 00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:59,880 just has a couple elements that may push you forward too fast 720 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,640 that you need to control. And then that puts more demand 721 00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,400 on the muscles that it's supposed to offload anyway. 722 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:07,760 All right, You ready for the last pair? 723 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:16,080 All right, Last pair is Hoka Skyward X and a shoe that is 724 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,080 just coming out, which is a shoe that I've been waiting for for a 725 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:23,679 long time. And that is the ASICS Glide Ride 726 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:25,800 Max. So this is their continuation of 727 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,960 the Glyride series, which the most recent one that came out 728 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,320 was the Glide Ride 3, which may have been two years ago now. 729 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:33,960 Two or three years, yeah. So it's been a. 730 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,080 While, but it's not dead, they've brought it back. 731 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,719 There are some changes to it, so we'll talk about it, but these 732 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,760 are two shoes that we wanted to talk about as well when it comes 733 00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,560 to how well they fit in the stable neutral category and who 734 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:47,360 they might work well for. So the. 735 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,400 The Skyward X has definitely been kind of again, it's that 736 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:54,000 supermax shoe you, you really sit in that midsole. 737 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:56,560 Those sidewalls come up super high. 738 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:58,640 So you are really sitting down in that shoe. 739 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,960 Base is really, really wide. I believe, Please correct me if 740 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,120 I'm wrong. There's a it's AP backs Piba, a 741 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,440 Piba Eva combo. So I think the Piba is encased 742 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:12,640 within the Eva and the Super I think it's super critical Eva. 743 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:14,520 Someone who's correct. I'm sorry for not knowing that 744 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,600 within the sole. So there's a lot of geometric 745 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,960 things there without actually being the full on like posted 746 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,840 shoes. So and also and Nathan's 747 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,480 outlining the plate actually comes up around the side, which 748 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,560 is really, really nice. So again, you got a lot of 749 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,080 things that are kind of cradling that foot and keeping in the 750 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:32,600 center. The things you do have to know 751 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,040 is again, it's not a soft, it's not the softest shoe. 752 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,560 I felt it definitely has some bounce, but it's it's fairly 753 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,880 heavy. So you know, if if you're 754 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,600 sensitive to a teeny bit of softness though, this might not 755 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,000 be the best option for you. But I found that just how far 756 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,880 you sit in the midsole might actually work for a lot of 757 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,360 people if they need like mild guidance. 758 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,640 I think the reason. Why it's on that like the fence 759 00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,080 of stable neutral for me too, is it's so maximally stacked and 760 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,400 you have so much between your foot and the ground and and it's 761 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,480 maximally stacked is so tricky because yes, the Super blast 762 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:07,920 also has a ton of foam under foot. 763 00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,760 But in terms of the sensation when this is on your foot, the 764 00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,200 plate in between and the type of foam that's there, you just 765 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,680 can't feel the ground at all. When I or at least I can't when 766 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,480 I'm in this shoe, it feels like I'm just on something different. 767 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,120 I'm no longer running on the ground. 768 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,480 And I think that's where just that proprioceptive awareness is 769 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:29,240 probably not going to be there as much. 770 00:36:29,240 --> 00:36:32,920 You basically just feel that bounce from the foam and that's 771 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,760 that's all you're getting when you're running in the shoe. 772 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:39,160 And I think that's where it's not as simple an answer for 773 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,080 stable neutral. Some of the others I would 774 00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,040 definitely agree with. You that yes, it's got all the 775 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,880 elements we would like, but just because it's so far off the 776 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,520 ground, the amount there is some good resilience to the foam, but 777 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,640 and also compliance that it compresses lots. 778 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,600 And again, there's a lot happening even just no matter 779 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,560 how much foam there is, if there's a lot going on under 780 00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:57,720 your foot, there's a lot of components. 781 00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,600 Sometimes it's like I don't know what's happening as I land and 782 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:01,960 so that will definitely impact that. 783 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:05,040 So again, another kind of borderline, it's got the 784 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,360 components, but for some people it might work, for others it 785 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,840 might not. Now I'm excited to talk to you 786 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,400 about this one because I am still like, I don't know if I 787 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,720 want to call this stable neutral. 788 00:37:15,720 --> 00:37:17,440 I'm I'm yeah, I'm not sure either. 789 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:19,640 Me too. I've got 20 miles in it this. 790 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:23,880 Far and I felt fine on a long run for me is 10 to 12 miles 791 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,120 right now with the craziness of my life and pushing a little one 792 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,600 in a stroller, but I did fine with a 10 mile run. 793 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,560 But I I just like I don't know the I don't know how to describe 794 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:34,560 this. What are your thoughts? 795 00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,040 Yeah, well, there's a lot. We don't know about this shoe 796 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:38,760 yet because we are just sent the shoe. 797 00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:42,400 They didn't send us any of the specs or any of the kind of like 798 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,000 insider stuff that we sometimes get access to. 799 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,760 We will get to it and it will be there part of our full review 800 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,680 once we read our experiences. But we do know that it's Flight 801 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,280 Foam Blast Max, which we haven't seen that. 802 00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:59,160 So I don't know exactly what they are doing with that foam. 803 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:00,840 And so that'll be an interesting thing. 804 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,200 But in terms of experience, we don't have to know what it is to 805 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,800 experience it. It's definitely on the softer 806 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,840 side of things. I would say it went a little bit 807 00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,200 softer than version three, which went a little bit firmer from 808 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,600 version two and especially from version one. 809 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,200 This was a shoe, I feel like I've chronicled the shoe in my 810 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:18,400 running. I don't know why. 811 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,880 I just feel like I've had like some attachment to the shoe. 812 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:25,600 But the the first version had a really unique geometric shaping 813 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:29,640 on the medial side where they put two like components of foam 814 00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:32,560 together that were pretty much the same stiffness, but they had 815 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,840 it cut in such a way that it would collapse on the lateral 816 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,600 side because of some concavity. And then it had like this 817 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,400 bulbous side on the medial side. So it really biased laterally. 818 00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:44,040 They got rid of that with version two and three and now 819 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:48,120 they've stuck with kind of keeping it pretty standard on 820 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:49,720 version four. It stays pretty wide. 821 00:38:49,720 --> 00:38:53,080 It narrows out a little bit more than I feel like I remember in 822 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:55,400 the past, but it's got some good soul flaring. 823 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,920 The other big difference, what I loved about version the other 824 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,040 versions was that it didn't have a lot of toe spraying, but it 825 00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,600 was very stiff in the forefoot. And Matt and I both noticed that 826 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:08,520 this is much more flexible in the forefoot than previous 827 00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,560 versions had been. And so it's less of a fall off 828 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,880 the front of the shoe rocker, which for training is probably 829 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:16,160 going to end up being a great thing. 830 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,000 I think that it was maybe a little bit too aggressive, but 831 00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:24,440 we loved prescribing that shoe for folks who had Hallux 832 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,000 Rigidus, which it means that their big toe doesn't extend. 833 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:28,800 And I don't think we're going to be able to do that. 834 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:30,640 That's why we we both want to test this shoe more. 835 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,600 I don't think we have that in this shoe anymore, which is a 836 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,480 slight bummer, but that's a niche population. 837 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:40,280 I think most people are going to enjoy the little bit more mild 838 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,800 rocker experience in here. I think what I just have to 839 00:39:43,800 --> 00:39:48,000 figure out is, is the softness and the compliance of this shoe 840 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,880 and now the new found like flexibility. 841 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,720 Does that take it out of the stable neutral category? 842 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,600 Because I feel like the other ones did a really nice job 843 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,600 pushing you forward, especially version 3, but it was just a 844 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:00,800 little bit soft. So I don't know. 845 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,440 I don't know. Do you have any other thoughts 846 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:03,800 on it? I'm 100% with you. 847 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,600 Where I don't know, I will say I don't think it's fully stable 848 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,120 neutral because of the softer foam there. 849 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,360 I don't think it's unstable. It's definitely like almost 850 00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,560 stable neutral like it's got and I I feel like the mid foot's 851 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:16,880 fairly wide. They do a good job. 852 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:19,440 There is some mild sidewalls here. 853 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,720 They're not massive, but again, a little bit more flexibility 854 00:40:22,720 --> 00:40:24,800 than prior versions of the softness I think might 855 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:26,840 neutralize out some of the other elements. 856 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,360 So it's not unstable for sure. And there's certainly people 857 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,080 with really mild guidance needs that are probably going to do 858 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:34,640 well. But Nathan and I think the same 859 00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:35,840 boat. We just, we need to test this 860 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:38,360 more before we come to a final conclusion on that. 861 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,040 But I'm I'm leaning away from being it's almost there, but not 862 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,120 quite. Well, that's. 863 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:45,440 Everything that we had for today. 864 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:48,720 So if you all have thoughts on shoes that we didn't talk about 865 00:40:48,720 --> 00:40:51,800 today that you're curious about, I consider this stable neutral. 866 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,640 Do you as well? What may be missing? 867 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,520 Oh, I'm a person who prefers these category or these features 868 00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,040 to a shoe. Which one should I look for? 869 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,360 Put those below. We can use them in future 870 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,760 episodes where we do mailbag and things like that. 871 00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,440 And also if you disagree with our take on these, put it in the 872 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,680 in the chats as well and just dialogue about what your 873 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,920 experiences were like because this is such an art. 874 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,520 We always say we talk about the art and science of the stuff we 875 00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,400 put on our feet. We know there is some science to 876 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:21,800 the bio mechanics of having a wider base. 877 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:25,640 We know that there is a lot of theory that comes out of those 878 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:28,720 things, but a lot of it's going to come down to all of the 879 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:32,520 different factors of your individuality and how you 880 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,200 interact with the shoe and how the shoe then interacts with the 881 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:36,680 ground. So we want to hear your 882 00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,120 thoughts. I would also say to be. 883 00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:40,160 Cautious on like the science stuff because there was even 884 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,160 there's evidence suggested even with some of the more 885 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,800 traditional methods of Bilibili post things like that, that yes, 886 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,520 it will decrease somebody's future risk of post your 887 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,640 tibialis problems. But when you actually look at 888 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,640 them, the shoe with the post doesn't actually change how much 889 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,560 they're going through can change the rate and getting rates are 890 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:04,360 is much more difficult to get. But you know, don't assume just 891 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,400 like you're going to necessarily feel like, Oh, like it just 892 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,320 corrected my pronation corrected this. 893 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,320 Not necessarily it's how does it feel because a lot of the 894 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,400 perception can be one of the stronger things for predicting 895 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,080 whether a shoe is going to work for you or not. 896 00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,320 So bio mechanics is great. It is not the only thing that 897 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,600 will predict how a shoe is going to work for you. 898 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:24,840 Well, thank you all for joining us, Matt. 899 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,520 You have way more important things to do than record this 900 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,200 podcast. You should go celebrate your 901 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:34,040 little girl and happy birthday to her and we will have a great 902 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,280 birthday week all around for everybody. 903 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,200 So many Dor birthdays and Dor family birthdays. 904 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:42,280 So thank you all for joining. If you want to ask us a 905 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:45,680 question, give us a shout out at doctorsrunning@gmail.com or 906 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,400 comment below. And we are so thankful to be 907 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:52,040 partnering with Scratch and they are helping power these 908 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,720 podcasts. And so if you want 25% off your 909 00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:59,360 first order, you can use Dor 24. You can get 25% off your first 910 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,560 order from Scratch Labs. All right, y'all.