1 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,120 This episode of the Doctors Are Running podcast is sponsored by 2 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:09,920 our friends at Scratch Labs. We're huge fans of all their 3 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,600 products, from their hydration sport mix for fueling during the 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:15,800 run to their recovery drink mix for kick starting refueling 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:17,400 after. Check them out at 6 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,000 scratchla-bs.com and use code Dor 24 for 25% off your first 7 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:31,960 order. Hello, everyone, and welcome to 8 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,440 the Doctors of Running podcast where we, a group of doctors of 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,520 physical therapy, discuss the art and the science of the stuff 10 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,040 that we're putting on our feet. I'm Andrea Myers, and today we 11 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,600 have a special guest with us today, and we've got Tina 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,280 Danforth, who is a Brooks footwear product line manager. 13 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,240 Welcome, Tina. Thank you so much for joining us 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,720 today. Thanks for having me. 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,880 Long time listener, obviously first time on the pod with 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,320 Brooks. So excited to be with you guys 17 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,800 and specifically talk to you. Yeah, I am super excited to talk 18 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,440 about one of my favorite topics, which is the Brooks High period 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,400 Max, but we'll get to that in a second. 20 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,760 But maybe you could tell our listeners just a little bit 21 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,680 about your history in the footwear industry you're 22 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,960 running. Just tell us a little bit about 23 00:01:17,960 --> 00:01:19,760 yourself. Yeah, of course. 24 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:25,200 So high school track athlete, 300m hurdles was my event, so 25 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:29,000 very much near and dear to my heart there obviously more of 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,840 like a sprinter than a distance runner. 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,640 So once I graduated from college, I started working at a 28 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,800 running store and that kind of, you know, began my love for 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,680 more, I guess long distance training after that because, you 30 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,480 know, anything over 400 was just like madness to me. 31 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:50,880 Definitely did not enjoy it. And so started training at 32 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,680 Marathon Sports in Boston, which is where I'm from. 33 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,920 And so from there, you know, got a tech Rep job in the industry 34 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,160 and kind of made my way throughout, throughout a couple 35 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,160 different companies and, and honestly always loved product, 36 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,640 always had an interest in it, you know, from top to bottom, 37 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,039 like, you know, how geometries were Telestack heights were 38 00:02:11,039 --> 00:02:13,840 important. Even the textiles that we use 39 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,880 like per shoe to me always interest me. 40 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,600 So things like that really got me going into the product space 41 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,760 and as far as like, you know, my running history, I've run a a 42 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,200 few half marathons. I've run Boston Marathon. 43 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,800 That was my my check. You know, definitely a hurt 44 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,880 locker going into that race. But if you've ever run it, 45 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,800 obviously, you know, it's just like the most wonderful time of 46 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,880 the year. It's you know, from start to 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,440 finish, everyone's cheering for you and, and there's no better 48 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:44,160 race to do for your first and your last marathon. 49 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,400 So was super, super privileged to be able to do that and now 50 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:49,920 working on running product for Brooks. 51 00:02:49,920 --> 00:02:52,440 So you know, couldn't be more grateful to in this industry and 52 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,120 obviously working on product every day. 53 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,960 That's awesome, and as a fellow 300m hurdler I wholeheartedly 54 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,240 agree. That one to two laps of the 55 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,320 track was definitely enough for me when I was younger. 56 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,480 Now I've expanded to longer, but 300 hurdles is definitely the 57 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:11,680 best event, isn't it? Agreed. 58 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:15,080 It's so interesting to me how like regionally it can be 400 or 59 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:19,400 300, but you know, in, in Massachusetts we always had 300, 60 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,320 which I was grateful for because that extra 100 I think probably 61 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:23,200 would have killed me. So. 62 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,840 Oh. Yeah, I ran in Illinois and 63 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:30,760 same, it was 300, but whenever I did like USATF junior races, it 64 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,160 was 400 and it was like, oh gosh, this extra 100 is just 65 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:37,760 brutal. Yeah, remember, like our meats 66 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,160 would come down to the four by four. 67 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,040 And my coach was like, hey, I need to put you in. 68 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,080 I was like, I know this is going to be painful, but anyways, it's 69 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,720 good learning. Good learning for sure. 70 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:51,040 Absolutely. So today, Tina's joining us to 71 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:54,560 talk about all of the updates to the Hyperion line. 72 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,200 We're going to talk a little bit about Ghost Max Two and just 73 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,360 where Brooks is headed with their design for 2025 and 74 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,200 beyond. But of course, first we're going 75 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,400 to start out talking about one of my favorite topics, which is 76 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,080 the Brooks Hyperion Max, which has definitely been my favorite 77 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,360 shoe since you guys sent it to me last year. 78 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,680 So can you tell us just about the evolution in the Hyperion 79 00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,839 line over the past few years? And specifically, what led to 80 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,920 the changes you made in the Hyperion Max 2 and Hyperion 2? 81 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,840 Yeah, of course. So it's kind of been an 82 00:04:28,840 --> 00:04:31,600 interesting evolution because when you look at kind of the 83 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,320 consumer segment and just the market in general, like it's one 84 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,560 of the fastest evolving lines because again you always want 85 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:40,480 that next advantage and that next advantage. 86 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,680 So when we were looking at Hyperion Max one, you know, we 87 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:47,120 had DNA Flash V1, which we had in Hyperion Tempo and that was 88 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,720 our first like how can we get a biggest advantage into an 89 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:55,360 everyday foam? And so that was kind of how that 90 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,200 first came to life. And so Hyperion Max one was 91 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,360 really this like, you know, shoe that was made for everyday 92 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,600 training, but to give you, you know, a quicker, a quicker 93 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:07,800 turnover, definitely a faster transition and really kind of 94 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,040 put in that advantage into kind of a train to race product. 95 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,640 So that was really important kind of going into that. 96 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,640 And then as we saw it evolve, we really looked at kind of our 97 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,080 line architecture in different ways. 98 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:24,960 So we had, you know, two kind of segmented line strategies. 99 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,440 One was like speed and then one was energized. 100 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,760 And so there were shoes called the levitate, which you might 101 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,080 know that kind of fit in that energized bucket. 102 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:35,240 And then we use DNA amp to kind of represent that. 103 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:39,440 Once we launch Hyperion Max one, we saw that those really started 104 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:42,000 to merge. So the same consumers, the way 105 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,920 they talked about the levitate and DNA amp as far as like what 106 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,400 they wanted out of that technology, they were saying the 107 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:50,240 exact same things out of Hyperion Max One and DNA Flash 108 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,080 V1. So we kind of took that strategy 109 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,800 and that insight and we said, OK, how can we start to merge 110 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,800 these and make this like super light, super responsive, very 111 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,880 resilient foam that was just kind of fun for everybody to run 112 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:07,360 in So can. We ask this of pretty much every 113 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:10,480 issue company we talked to, but can you explain the differences 114 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:17,160 between your foams DNA Flash, DNA AMP, DNA Loft for Hyperion 2 115 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:21,040 and Hyperion Max two, you're on DNA Flash version 2, right? 116 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,560 But then in Ghost Max two, you're on DNA loft version 117 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,120 three, if I'm correct. So could you just help us 118 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:34,000 understand the differences in properties between the phones? 119 00:06:34,280 --> 00:06:38,440 Yeah, for sure. So when we looked at loft versus 120 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,840 flash, basically resiliency was important for both of them, but 121 00:06:42,840 --> 00:06:47,040 kind of the bounce back rates where where where we really 122 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:48,680 started to kind of segment them more. 123 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,200 So obviously they're both super critical foam when you looked at 124 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,160 Loft V3 and you look at Flash V1 and Flash V2. 125 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,120 But really in order to get like that responsiveness, we wanted 126 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,360 basically that foam to deform and then bounce back super 127 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:03,240 quickly. Now when you get to kind of your 128 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,040 loft foam, we wanted to basically kind of deform a 129 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,440 little bit more and then it would still bounce back. 130 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,960 But we want you to kind of spend more time sinking into that 131 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,360 because that consumer just sees that as a more comfortable 132 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,800 experience. So that's where we get into 133 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,720 these kind of small cell versus large cell iterations. 134 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,720 So and all of the loft product, you'll see that large cell. 135 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,400 So again, it just gives you a little bit more time to deform 136 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,880 and kind of give you spends a little or help you spend a 137 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,160 little bit more time in that comfort zone before it bounces 138 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,080 back versus flash. It's a small cell iteration and 139 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,880 that basically allows you to kind of hit it and then jump 140 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,480 back as soon as you can. So again, we can kind of use 141 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,080 geometries to exacerbate any of those phones. 142 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,280 We can certainly carve a lot into Flash V2 and make it feel 143 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,200 soft. But really it's kind of that 144 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,280 bounce back of what that product does and then what that consumer 145 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,240 expects out of that product. So basically a softness versus 146 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,440 like a bounciness? Yeah, I I definitely experience 147 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:02,440 what you're describing in that flash. 148 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,240 Both V1 and V2 has some compliance, but a lot more 149 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,360 resilience compared to loft and loft. 150 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,480 Yeah, you definitely get that sinking and feeling and not as 151 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,440 much bounce back or resilience that you're feeling loft. 152 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:22,040 So in your tech sheets, you're safe for Hyperion Max 2 and 153 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,200 Hyperion 2. DNA Flash V2 has 10% more 154 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:29,640 resilience. Can you tell us a little bit 155 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:35,320 about how you manipulated DNA Flash two to give it that 156 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,799 additional resilience property? Yeah, that's a, that's a really 157 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:42,799 good question. So basically going from Flash V1 158 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,680 to Flash V2, we added a material called TPE. 159 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:51,200 And so basically it was more of a blend where instead of an Eva 160 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,560 blend, it's an Eva and a TPE blend. 161 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,640 And what that does for us is really kind of allows it to be a 162 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:01,240 little bit softer overall, even for a responsive foam. 163 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:04,120 But the bounce back properties are unbelievable. 164 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,440 So again, when we were seeing this merge of like energized to 165 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,800 speed, people were still looking for kind of that bounce back and 166 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,280 that resiliency, but they didn't want it to feel like super flat. 167 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,960 They didn't want it to feel like they were feeling the ground 168 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:19,840 more. They still wanted at least like 169 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:21,560 a little bit of protection in there. 170 00:09:21,560 --> 00:09:25,200 And so adding that blend allowed us to really almost add like a 171 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,280 softness to a material that is like super responsive. 172 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,080 And so that, you know, obviously started in Hyperion Elite, you 173 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,520 know, that was something that we found that was a good unlock 174 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,200 from our athletes, you know, over a longer period of time, at 175 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:42,080 least having a little bit more comfort and then bounce back. 176 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,640 And then how we took that and really brought it down to 177 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:47,960 Hyperion Max 2 and Hyperion 2. So really that was kind of the 178 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,480 big unlock for us is just adding like almost a comfortability to 179 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,000 a responsive product when you just assume that, you know, 180 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,440 something like that you want to keep as firm as possible. 181 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:00,520 We were looking at a balance between the two. 182 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,920 Interesting. And now does the addition of the 183 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:09,160 TP, you said TPTP EE, Yeah, that's the new blend. 184 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:11,760 How did that change the weight of the foam? 185 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:13,600 Yeah. So it actually allowed it to get 186 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,080 lighter in general. So, so using that, we could use 187 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,400 the same amount and basically cut down the weight from Flash 188 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,440 V1 product versus a Flash V2 product. 189 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:24,680 So that was definitely the start. 190 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,760 But really like I said, it's kind of the overall comfort. 191 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,280 So when you step into, if you were to take just like a puck 192 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,840 for puck situation, flashy one for Slash V2, same amount of 193 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,160 millimeters, same amount of material, like you would just 194 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,640 feel just a little bit more of like a comfortable step in 195 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,640 versus Slash V1. It is definitely more of a rapid 196 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:45,800 turnover. So we still use it in products 197 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,520 that kind of makes sense. But Flash V2 for the masses 198 00:10:49,680 --> 00:10:51,240 definitely had more appeal to it. 199 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,800 Makes sense. And then we I also saw some 200 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,160 changes in geometry, specifically stack height, but 201 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:02,160 also a little bit in the rocker profile of Hyperion Max two as 202 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,880 compared to one. Can you talk a little bit about 203 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:09,080 the design process through that and what you were intending to 204 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,200 change between last year's version and this year's version 205 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:14,160 of the Max? Yeah, for sure. 206 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,000 I mean, like anything we do it, it starts with consumer insights 207 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,400 for us. So you know, if you take a 208 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,560 adrenaline consumer and you ask them like what is support, you 209 00:11:22,560 --> 00:11:25,720 know, they'll they'll point to the arch or they'll point to a 210 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,440 piece that basically looks like like it's a rigid structure. 211 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,920 But when you talk about support in a Hyperion consumer or 212 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,240 someone who wants more of a responsive cushion shoe, they 213 00:11:36,560 --> 00:11:39,000 they talk about stack height and foam as support. 214 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:42,400 And so we knew that going from Hyperion Max 1 to Hyperion Max 215 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:45,960 2, but if we were going to give them support and longevity that 216 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:47,520 we were going to have to increase the stack height. 217 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:51,560 So, you know, going from 1:00 to 2:00, we increased it 4mm like 218 00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:54,560 right from the beginning. And then knowing we were going 219 00:11:54,560 --> 00:11:57,960 from flash V1 to Flash V2, we had to make sure we kind of 220 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,480 complemented the geometries to make sure it didn't feel too 221 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,080 soft because we wanted to make sure that turnover could happen 222 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:07,000 quickly in that shoe. That's a tough thing when you 223 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,680 go, you know, additional four 4mm and and stack height, you 224 00:12:10,680 --> 00:12:13,760 assume like, oh, you want that soft squishy feel if you're 225 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,720 turning over quickly, obviously you want to make sure that you 226 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:19,360 build, you build in that stable platform to kind of complement 227 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:22,240 that. So that was a huge update for 228 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:24,320 us. And then obviously making sure 229 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,320 that the plate complemented that and stabilize the foam as well, 230 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,600 because Flash V2 inherently is just a little bit softer than 231 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,120 Flash V1. Again, winding that base, 232 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:35,520 putting in that plate to make sure that you had that quick 233 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,720 turnover from heel to toe. But then you know that 234 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,560 resiliency that you expect in that foam. 235 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,080 Yeah, and I would definitely agree that the additional stack 236 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:50,640 height in V2 plus the plate has made V2 feel more supportive 237 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:55,000 slash stable, neutral. There's much less ground feel in 238 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:57,760 V2, but not in a bad way. You just feel like your foot is 239 00:12:57,760 --> 00:12:59,600 a little more protected from the ground. 240 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:05,240 It definitely the foam feels on the firmer side to me which I 241 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:07,480 like. I don't really like soft shoes 242 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,600 and it just feels well designed for eating up easy miles tempo 243 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,040 runs. I don't really find V2 to be as 244 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:20,880 good for like 10K or faster paces as I did V1. 245 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,960 But then I, like I said in the review that I wrote that's on 246 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,400 doctors running Hyperion 2 has really kind of filled up that 247 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,000 void for me. I want to talk about Hyperion 248 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,360 two in a minute because it's it's a lot different than 249 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,200 Hyperion 1. But when you when your team 250 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,040 designed Hyperion Mix to, did you envision that it would be 251 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,640 more for like middle to slower paces or did you think that it 252 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,440 would also be useful for say speed work? 253 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:53,880 Yeah, No, that's a, that's a good question. 254 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,320 I think like when we started off looking at that season and what 255 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,360 we wanted to achieve in 2024, we actually like started with 256 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,760 Hyperion Elite Four in the spring and basically through 257 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,760 kind of some of those elite insights came up with the story 258 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,200 of supernatural speed. And So what happened there is 259 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:14,520 like, you know, we would have athletes telling us like they 260 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:17,200 wanted to feel like a superhuman version of themselves or they 261 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,400 wanted to feel like augmented in some way. 262 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,400 And then like, you know, the the next little sound bite would be 263 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,200 like, oh, but I wanted to feel like natural and an extension of 264 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,080 my foot. And we're like, OK, those are 265 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,240 two different things. But like, let's work through 266 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:30,840 that and kind of see what that means. 267 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,400 And so that started with, you know, like Josh and NIA and CJ 268 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,720 and some of our athletes. And then we understood that 269 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,040 parts of those will kind of get taken down into our products. 270 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:44,760 So we took it from like a supernatural level and then we 271 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,280 made it more natural kind of as we like went down the product 272 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,440 line. And so Hyperion Max kind of fit 273 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,240 in that spot for us as far as like a train to race you. 274 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:56,400 So we wanted to give you the biggest advantage, but we knew 275 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,560 with like the stable platform and the way that Flash V2 276 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,760 operates that we could still hit a bigger variety of people 277 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:06,600 instead of just kind of segmenting it as this like 278 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,200 everyday tempo shoe. So we really tried to find a 279 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,240 balance there. But it is certainly closer to 280 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:13,680 kind of the elite than it is the Hyperion too. 281 00:15:13,960 --> 00:15:17,040 Yeah, definitely. And you know, unfortunately I 282 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,880 have never gotten to test any of the Hyperion Elite, so I can't 283 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,120 speak to like my personal experience about it. 284 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:25,400 Who do I have to talk to after this call? 285 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,040 It's seriously. Send them over, you got them. 286 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:32,320 But. Can you maybe describe for our 287 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:36,800 listeners the design process for Hyperion Elite for how it's 288 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:42,560 evolved over the years? Is the foam in Elite for also 289 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:46,080 DNA flash two or is it a different foam blend? 290 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:49,040 Yeah. So that foam blend really kind 291 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,960 of that technology road map started with Hyperion Elite. 292 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,080 So it was like, how can we give that next kind of big advantage? 293 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,120 And so flashy two was born out of that. 294 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,720 And so obviously the first product it goes into is our 295 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,600 Pinnacle product, our best product, and that was Hyperion 296 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,400 Elite 4. But the one thing I kind of want 297 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:12,440 to, you know, definitely signal out for that shoe is the plate 298 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:15,640 that we did. So, you know, there's a lot of 299 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,360 iterations of carbon fiber, carbon, carbon infused, you can 300 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,720 do P backs, nylon, Tpus, like there's obviously a lot of 301 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,800 different plate iterations. But we partner with a company 302 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,720 called Aris and what they were able to do for us in the 303 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:33,200 Hyperion Elite specifically is basically tune per size. 304 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,440 So the same plate thickness that, you know, Dez wears for 305 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,720 her marathon is not the same plate thickness that CJ 306 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,080 Albertson does. And so that was kind of a big 307 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:47,000 unlock for us is like, you know, Dez can't put, you know, at 100, 308 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,040 you know, 100 lbs can't put the same amount of force on that 309 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:53,400 plate that CJ can. So if we're able to basically 310 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:58,440 take that information and kind of, you know, create the plate 311 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,120 that's best for her body type versus a size say 11 1/2, we can 312 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,200 actually actually give a better advantage to that athlete per 313 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,920 size. And so that's kind of where Eris 314 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,359 and the Hyperion Elite started to really work in cohesion. 315 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,839 We had this new foam that is amazing. 316 00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:16,839 But then how do we look at the shoe as a system, every single 317 00:17:16,839 --> 00:17:20,200 piece of that pie and really make the biggest advantage we 318 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,359 can and obviously doing it precise was was one that we 319 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,160 looked at which was fantastic. Oh, that's really interesting. 320 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,520 So are you saying the plates are weight tuned based on size or 321 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:35,120 their size tuned based on like foot length? 322 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:39,920 So based on like thickness, so for instance, you know, we can 323 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:42,800 get like you know, obviously a size 6. 324 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,560 When you look at the amount of phone that we use or the sizing, 325 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:51,440 we are basically taking it and doing at a certain thickness and 326 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,280 then we can get a little bit thicker as we go up in size 327 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:57,640 where that person is putting a lot more force on it. 328 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,760 So really it's kind of like plate thickness is where we're 329 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:03,400 able to kind of tune per size. OK, so you're making an 330 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,800 assumption that like someone who wears a size 7 shoe is probably 331 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:10,320 going to weigh less than someone who wears a size 11, correct. 332 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:14,440 OK, very interesting. And then for do you change the 333 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:20,040 shape of the plate as well for different foot lengths or is it 334 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,480 just the ratios are the same? Yeah, it's scaled per size. 335 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,200 So it's not, Yeah, it's not necessarily any different there 336 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:29,160 as far as the shape because we wanted to guide the foot the 337 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,640 same way. But but yeah, per size obviously 338 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,080 scaled. Very interesting. 339 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,800 So let's move on to the Hyperion 2. 340 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,160 I was looking at the specs for Hyperion 2 and comparing them to 341 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,720 Hyperion Max one and they're pretty close. 342 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,280 You're only 2mm of stack height off so I wouldn't. 343 00:18:50,360 --> 00:18:54,760 I've got maybe 25 miles on my Hyperion twos right now and I 344 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,040 wouldn't say they feel exactly the same as Hyperion Max one. 345 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,320 There's definitely a noticeable difference in both the heel 346 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,520 bevel and the four foot rocker between the two shoes. 347 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,720 But I would say that the stack feels similar and the amount of 348 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,960 ground feel feels similar. So was that kind of the 349 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,160 intention is to make Hyperion 2 similar to Hyperion Max two or 350 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,760 was that not part of the? Thought process, yeah, it 351 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:22,560 actually wasn't part of the thought process. 352 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,640 It's kind of where we took Hyperion One and we said, OK, 353 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,160 what's the first thing we need to do? 354 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:30,040 And kind of going back to our previous conversation where 355 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,720 cushioning equals support, we said the first thing we need to 356 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,400 do is add 4mm because we know that the person who's looking to 357 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,520 use this every day is going to want just more under foot. 358 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,040 That's how they protect themselves. 359 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,480 And so in that the stack hides obviously get very, very 360 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,520 similar. But to your point, you know, 361 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,240 it's it's definitely not an aggressive rocker. 362 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:52,760 If anything, you know, it's definitely a shoe that's meant 363 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,240 for kind of heel to toe transition. 364 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,280 It's definitely, you know, a little bit smoother overall. 365 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,760 It doesn't kind of control the foot as far as an assisted 366 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,400 transition like a rocker shoe would. 367 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,120 And so really we wanted to build in just like a super fun kind of 368 00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:10,040 responsive cushion shoe that could be used as an everyday 369 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:12,840 trainer when we looked at. Those speed and energize 370 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,520 categories starting to merge, we were like, OK, do we need 2 371 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,760 shoes to do this or do we need one shoe that can really just be 372 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,040 your everyday shoe? And that's kind of how the 373 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,240 Hyperion two was, was born. So it was kind of like how can 374 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:28,760 we inject fun in here and, and Flash V2 did that for us, but 375 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:31,000 then how can we just make it like an everyday trainer 376 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,480 experience to kind of complement the ghost in a way where the 377 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,400 ghost is more of a balanced approach? 378 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,520 Can we take some like exaggerated speed geometries and 379 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,800 throw that into that shoe for kind of a fun experience? 380 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,400 I would I have experienced exactly what you described. 381 00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:50,120 I would also say that Hyperion 2 feels like it has more higher 382 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,160 longitudinal bending stiffness than Hyperion one. 383 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,840 With Hyperion one, I enjoyed it, but I just felt like there was a 384 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,240 kind of strange flex point a little bit behind my first MTP 385 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,600 which was uncomfortable. And I don't feel that at all in 386 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,080 Hyperion 2. And you know you have, I've got 387 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:12,640 all the shoes here. You have changed the outsole 388 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,880 pattern. Here's Hyperion 2. 389 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,240 Here's Hyperion 1. So I wonder if that has also 390 00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:25,320 changed the where the shoe was able to flex was that. 391 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,720 Can your comment at all on that? Was that intentional? 392 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,800 Is that just something weird that I feel? 393 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,560 No, is definitely intentional and and if you look at it, I'll 394 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:38,600 grab my pair here, like the more kind of cutouts we have here, 395 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,800 the more that foam can kind of displace. 396 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,680 And so one of the one of the things that we were looking for 397 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,520 overall is like, how can we just provide more comfort from heel 398 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,640 to toe? You're going to get the 399 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,160 responsiveness Flash V2 will do that for you, But allowing some 400 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:54,680 of these cutouts, it does, you know, decrease some of the 401 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:56,200 weight. So obviously our weight, you 402 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:00,040 know, is, is in a very good spot for the shoe, but it allows that 403 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:01,920 foam to kind of displace a little bit more. 404 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,000 So you have a little bit more flexibility, but really just an 405 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,320 overall kind of comfort in that forefoot that we wanted to put 406 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,880 in a shoe that obviously we categorize more as kind of an 407 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,040 everyday training shoe. That makes sense because if you 408 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,760 have all of these cutouts, it's going to allow the shoe to flex 409 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:22,040 in in a more. Basically the whole 4 foot can 410 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:27,360 flex depending where you put the force, whereas here there's not 411 00:22:27,360 --> 00:22:30,600 as many cut outs, so it feels like there's maybe less of an 412 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,640 opportunity for it to flex depending on a person's, you 413 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:36,800 know, foot geometry, running mechanics. 414 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:42,400 So yeah, I love both Hyperion 2 and Hyperion Mix 2. 415 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,680 I'm really enjoying putting miles on both. 416 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,760 So I can't credit your team enough for just improving the 417 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,440 shoes that I love so much. And one thing that really 418 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,640 surprised me with both of these years because I I had 0 419 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:59,000 complaints about Hyperion Max one. 420 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:04,240 Like I think I have 4 pairs and I've gotten over 300 miles on 421 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,360 each pair. But you guys really like went 422 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:12,920 above and beyond with the upper in Max 2 and Hyperion 2. 423 00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,640 So what led you to change that from versions 1? 424 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,400 Yeah, that's a good question. I'm glad that you brought this 425 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,200 up because like you said, that was one thing that I just loved 426 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,440 about the product process was just like you when you pick a 427 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,960 textile that seems so right, like it really kind of brings 428 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,600 the shoe to life from a top to bottom. 429 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,120 And so when we looked at these shoes again, how do we bring a 430 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,680 little bit more mass appeal? Like we selected a textile 431 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,400 that's basically this, this double Jaccard mesh upper. 432 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,640 And what it allows us to do is really bring this kind of depth 433 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:48,160 to design, but add these zones that just add breathability 434 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,600 without necessarily feeling like you need to open up the mesh too 435 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,400 much and expose it too much. And so that allows us to to 436 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,840 really make kind of that everyday trainer technology. 437 00:23:58,120 --> 00:24:01,280 But it really just had this like great hold to it, but it also 438 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,520 had this like nice flexibility in the forefoot. 439 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,440 So all these things like we really were trying to build into 440 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,440 a shoe that like just could fit more people in general. 441 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,600 And that was kind of important going into Max two and and 442 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,440 Hyperion 2 is like, how can we just invite more people into 443 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,400 this category? And that's fitting. 444 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,160 Definitely more feet. I mean, even down to the 445 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,680 details, like I don't, I don't know how you feel about the Max 446 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,680 2 tongue, but it's honestly one of my favorite things that we've 447 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:30,680 ever done. It kind of has this nice like, 448 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,200 you know, locked in, but like bounce back property, you know, 449 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,800 when we were doing wear testing with that, you know, people were 450 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,600 like, OK, it's, you know, it's responsive. 451 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:43,200 I feel protected like in the fit. 452 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,080 And then they were like, if you change anything about this shoe, 453 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,320 do not change the tongue. The tongue was called out in 454 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,240 like every single review. So little things like that can 455 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,480 kind of, you know, give someone just like a more comfortable 456 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,120 feeling in this shoe, just get people excited about the shoe. 457 00:24:57,120 --> 00:24:59,800 And that knit tongue was just kind of like a winner from the 458 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,440 beginning, which is cool. Yeah, and I really love the 459 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,360 tongue design. And I would say the the only 460 00:25:05,360 --> 00:25:09,320 complaint I had about Max one was the tongue. 461 00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:14,200 You can see I use the little loop on here to lace through to 462 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,440 help the tongue stay in place. But even without like you can 463 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,920 see how the tongue has kind of folded over from where I tie it. 464 00:25:21,360 --> 00:25:24,520 If you don't lace the laces through the loop here, the 465 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:26,880 tongue definitely would slide to the side for me. 466 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,800 And I heard from a lot of our listeners that they had the same 467 00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:34,480 experience. So this tongue doesn't move at 468 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,840 all and it just, it holds your foot so comfortably and there's 469 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,800 no pressure. I mean, I haven't had the the 470 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,240 top of the tongue fold up from the laces. 471 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,200 And you also improved the laces too with the little ridges. 472 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,200 Definitely helps it stay tied, but tied better. 473 00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,720 But yeah, the tongue just it gives you that nice mid foot 474 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:03,600 hold and I felt like there was better midfoot security with 475 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,280 version two of both Hyperion and Hyperion Max. 476 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:12,200 So will we see this upper in any other shoes that are coming out? 477 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,680 Oh, good question. We'll probably evolve it, find 478 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,040 some ways that we can certainly kind of get those breathable 479 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,200 zones. The the depth of design, detail, 480 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:26,400 detail, double Jaccard meshes aren't going away. 481 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,920 It's just kind of how we execute them. 482 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,560 I do think people are going to expect more from uppers than 483 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,960 ever before because phones are so competitive now. 484 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,200 I think your next advantage is like how that upper is executed, 485 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,600 how tongues are executed, how heel flares are executed. 486 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:46,160 And so I think those little details are going to matter, you 487 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,120 know, more than they ever have before, especially as like more 488 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:51,440 people come into that responsive cushion category. 489 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:54,840 Again, if you look at like the competitor landscape, like there 490 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,760 are a lot of shoes that are categorized that way that are in 491 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,480 the top 25 at retail. And it used to be just like goes 492 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,560 glycerins, you know, 2000s Cumulus, Cliftons. 493 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,360 And now you're starting to see these responsive cushion shoes 494 00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,440 really pop up in that space. So people are realizing they can 495 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:15,400 get kind of these like fun phones for, you know, pretty 496 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,160 good packages as far as price goes. 497 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:22,240 And so now when you look at the upper and how they basically 498 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,880 wrap the foot in the materials that we use, those are going to 499 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,440 be more important than ever. Even like little I state details 500 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:28,960 people are starting to pay attention to. 501 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,680 Well, yeah, you want. And the other thing that we 502 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,040 haven't talked about, issues are getting more expensive. 503 00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:38,040 So people want value out of the shoes they're buying. 504 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,440 You don't want a shoe that has a fragile lacing system and the 505 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,040 eyelet breaks on you three runs in. 506 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:49,080 You don't want the outsole to peel off because you know you're 507 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,000 Matt Klein and you destroy the posterior lateral heel. 508 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,600 If you're spending 150 to $200.00 on a pair of shoes, you 509 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:00,080 want it to last. So I would agree with you that 510 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:06,840 people should expect a very well all around design shoe. 511 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,600 Not just the foam properties or how it performs, but also 512 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,280 comfort and fit. I've been testing a shoe and I 513 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:17,080 won't say which one, but I love the ride. 514 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:21,360 It is probably my favorite racing shoe I've tested this 515 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,120 year. But it has a giant blood stain 516 00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,800 on the heel because of how badly it ripped up my Achilles. 517 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,320 So I can't wear it and I've tried everything to make it not 518 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,560 rip up my heel, but it I can't get it to stop. 519 00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,680 So I won't be running it anymore. 520 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:40,560 So and it I'm not the only one who's had that issue. 521 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,320 So people want shoes that are comfortable. 522 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,920 You don't want to be bleeding afterwards, but you also don't 523 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,480 want hot spots on the top of your foot or you don't want to 524 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,240 be able to feel the laces on the dorsum of your ankle. 525 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,800 So it's great to hear that your team is really paying attention 526 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,440 to all of the little details. Yeah. 527 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,240 I mean, honestly, one of the things I think that was I, I 528 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,280 think our biggest win actually is the reviews that we were 529 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:10,680 getting on the Hyperion Elite upper as far as how it fit. 530 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,240 You know, cuz when you look at shoes in that 250 plus category, 531 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:16,480 again, it's like, how can you give me the biggest advantage? 532 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,840 What's the best foam, What's the best plate? 533 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,600 Or how can you really shape the plate to give me an advantage? 534 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,840 And those are all things that details that we sweat over as 535 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:26,960 well. But when the reviews came back 536 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,560 and said how well it fit, like we were very proud of that 537 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,920 moment because again, you know, I've been in those situations 538 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:36,120 where I've done a long run and again, you know, it's ripped up 539 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:39,960 my heel or maybe I got like a blister on top of my toe. 540 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,960 And those are things that you just don't want to think about. 541 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:44,680 You're thinking about a million other things. 542 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,560 And so when you have an upper that's meant to give you an 543 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,000 advantage with the platform, like that was honestly one of 544 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:51,800 kind of the proudest moments that we had with that shoe. 545 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,520 That's awesome. Another thing I wanted to talk 546 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,960 to you about the changes in the geometry of these two shoes, 547 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,760 particularly Hyperion Max Two, is you Hyperion Max One had some 548 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,880 stable neutral features, but I really feel like Hyperion Max 549 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,920 Two is like a very solidly stable neutral shoe And you've 550 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:17,760 really, it I would say expanded the soul flaring the rocker 551 00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,480 geometry. The plate definitely adds some 552 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,320 stability. But the big one of the things I 553 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:27,520 really like about Hyperion Mix 2 is you made the soul flare in 554 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:31,560 the forefoot significantly wider on the lateral side. 555 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,160 And for people like myself who have trouble loading my big toe 556 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,880 or first MTP joint, this plays a huge role in just helping me 557 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,520 push off much more smoothly than I would in a shoe that doesn't 558 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,360 have this design. Again, was that intentional? 559 00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,600 Because this isn't a feature you see in a lot of shoes. 560 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,720 Often companies are trying to help people, you know, load 561 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:01,960 medially more slowly or less. So can you comment on that what 562 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,280 the design idea was behind the increased 4 foot sole flare? 563 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,760 Yeah, that's, no, that's a really great point. 564 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,240 I think it, it really started with, OK, we know we want to go 565 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,560 into this and add stack height. We know we need to add more 566 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:18,000 foam, a foam that is a little bit softer than the previous 567 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,160 foam. So if we do that, how can we 568 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,200 work with those geometries, those bottom gauges to make sure 569 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,640 that overall from heel to toe it's stable, even though it's a 570 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320 shoe that's meant to give you kind of a training advantage. 571 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,360 We knew that, you know, we'd have definitely a lot more 572 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,600 people running in it than say a Hyperion Elite. 573 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,080 And so how can we accommodate those people? 574 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,800 How can we give them that rocker geometry, but also it feels 575 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,680 stable from heel to toe. And so that was definitely a big 576 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:45,120 part of it. You know, one of the other 577 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,520 things that we looked at as well as kind of that top Mitzel line 578 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,280 there. And again, it almost kind of 579 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,200 creates like another stability point there. 580 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,840 It kind of just keeps you locked in on that top zone there. 581 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,400 And then obviously immediately you kind of see the same thing 582 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,120 as well. So using like geometries, using 583 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,120 those top midsole lines holistically and then obviously 584 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,320 kind of flaring that that bottom gauge there just to make sure 585 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,120 that everything from heel to toe is as stable as we can make. 586 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,280 It for me that's very well designed. 587 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,640 Now you've mentioned a couple times about like this idea of 588 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,200 like your two lines emerging, the energize line and the 589 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,360 cushion line. So does that mean that the shoes 590 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,880 like the Levitate are going away or going to see significant 591 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,400 changes? Yeah, that's a good question. 592 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,400 So the levitate will eventually leave the line and the goal is, 593 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,920 you know, the the same way that the people are that the 594 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,440 consumers there talked about like I want something bouncy. 595 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,880 I want something like fun, resilient. 596 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,720 All of those people who are in kind of our Hyperion products 597 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,960 are saying the same thing. So we're hoping to bring them 598 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,640 along, of course. And you know, sometimes when we 599 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,240 do that things are things don't end up perfectly, but we really 600 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:59,200 feel that flash view too, like DNA amp would have evolved in 601 00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:01,600 that way anyway. So from a line architecture, 602 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,360 like it just holistically makes sense. 603 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,640 So yeah, Levitate will lead the line, but our goal is to 604 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,520 continue to put a lot of eggs in that Hyperion basket. 605 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:11,840 Like we created a super franchise for a reason. 606 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,760 We believe in that name. We believe in the technology 607 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:17,400 we're putting into it. So how can we continue to evolve 608 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,040 that better for the masses, but for the person who just kind of 609 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,080 wants like a bouncier and more fun ride? 610 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,560 Awesome. So I'm now that leads me into so 611 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,600 what's going to happen in 2025 and beyond? 612 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:31,200 You know, of course, whatever you're able to talk about at 613 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:37,000 this point, Yeah. So, so there's kind of two big 614 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:41,280 stories. I would say look for a couple of 615 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,120 things to shake out with Hyperion Elite. 616 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,600 So not just one thing, a couple of things. 617 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,600 And so that's something that we're we are very excited about. 618 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,440 Again, we had this kind of great platform, Hyperion Elite Four 619 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,200 was sold out for a very long time. 620 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,320 So we feel like we had a great start with that product. 621 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,080 And so when we get to 2025, we feel like we're going to make a 622 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,440 couple big moves and we're really excited about that. 623 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:07,520 Both, both both from a foam point of view and then a 624 00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:09,880 geometry point of view. Like you'll see kind of some 625 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,520 very interesting looking shoes from us, which is exciting. 626 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,040 I do want to give a, a nod to the launch. 627 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,840 That's a shoe that's been around for 10 years. 628 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:21,880 It has a pretty like cult following. 629 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,360 And then during kind of COVID times, because we were looking 630 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:29,120 at, OK, how can we make sure that, you know, we get enough 631 00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,880 shoes out there. So we kind of stopped evolving 632 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:34,960 some shoes just to make sure that we had enough inventory for 633 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,560 everybody from, you know, the rest of the line. 634 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,040 So the launch Eleven will update in spring of 2025. 635 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,639 That gets super critical foam at a very friendly price point, 636 00:34:44,639 --> 00:34:48,400 which is really hard to do. And so we're really excited 637 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:51,199 about that because that's a nice little like everyday trainer 638 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,000 that I would say instead of on the soft side, it definitely has 639 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,440 all those responsive properties. So that's just you that I'm 640 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,040 actually excited about because I think from a price point to your 641 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,120 point like we're raising prices all the time, Super critical 642 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,200 foam isn't cheap. But if we're able to do it in a, 643 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:10,040 a package like under 140, we're targeting 120. 644 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,000 It's actually like a really friendly kind of everyday 645 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,520 training shoe. So you'll see obviously a 646 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,160 Hyperion Max 3, you'll see a Hyperion 3. 647 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,600 Those are very wild as well. You might get a sneak peek after 648 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:25,840 we turn off the cameras and we can talk through that a little 649 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:30,200 bit. But but again that that shoe in 650 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,000 that category, they just evolved so fast that we want to make 651 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:35,640 sure we keep up with the market landscape and keep up with 652 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:39,360 consumer needs because again, it's not just that under foot 653 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,440 feeling they expect. It's kind of the whole package 654 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,880 that is evolving very quickly. Well, it sounds like next year 655 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,200 will be very exciting and I can't wait for a sneak peek 656 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,920 shortly, but I want to move on and talk a little more about 657 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:54,600 phones. So this year on the Diora 658 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:58,480 podcast, we've had a couple of guests talk about how, you know, 659 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,400 it's not all about PIBA based phones anymore. 660 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,280 It's really about the properties that you give to, you know, an 661 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,040 Eva or even ATP phone specifically. 662 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,400 Like when we had the Mizuno team on talking about the Neo Vista 663 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,160 and they blew Matt's mind when they told us that the Neo Vista 664 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:20,720 was Eva. So can you talk a little bit 665 00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:26,840 about how Brooks manipulates its foams to give them, you know, 666 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:33,440 properties like high resilience to make it to make those shoes, 667 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,640 high performance shoes from your line? 668 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,600 Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a great question because to your 669 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:44,960 point, you know, people is is a wonderful product, but it has 670 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,440 some advantages and it has some disadvantages. 671 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,640 So when we were looking at again, going from Flash V1 to 672 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,680 Flash V2 and adding that TPE property, you know that TPE that 673 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,560 beaded property kind of adds just like a softest to it like 674 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,320 we like we kind of talked about before. 675 00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:01,600 And so if we were going to make that an everyday trainer, that 676 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,560 was really important kind of part of that, that tech transfer 677 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,680 and that package that we were trying to do there. 678 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,240 But the one thing that we were able to get out of it is 679 00:37:10,240 --> 00:37:13,200 longevity. So anytime we bring in a shoe 680 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,720 that has, you know, that we expect 300 to 500 miles, like 681 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,960 the properties that we put into it have to embody that. 682 00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,400 So that's why, you know, PIBA is such a great product because 683 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,440 it's very lightweight and it's very resilient. 684 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,800 But as far as the longevity of it, it it definitely struggles. 685 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,000 And so if we're making shoes in that package from 1:40 to 180, 686 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,800 you know, we want to make sure that the consumer gets the most 687 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,720 out of it. So it's, you know, little things 688 00:37:38,720 --> 00:37:41,600 that the guys guys kind of do in the lab that I'm not always 689 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,880 Privy to. But again, it starts with the 690 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:46,600 tech transfer of like, what is the consumer expect? 691 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:48,520 What do they want out of the properties? 692 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,120 How soft can you make it without necessarily bottoming out after 693 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,880 100 miles? Those are things that we kind of 694 00:37:55,160 --> 00:38:00,320 sweat the details on for sure. I wonder if the if the running 695 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:04,840 shoe market in the future will do a better job of communicating 696 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:09,680 actual data points to consumers. Because I think right now people 697 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,120 when they make their shoe buying decisions are like, OK, does it 698 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,320 have a carbon plate, which we know the plate is really not 699 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,320 like the big game changer when it comes to performance. 700 00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,040 And then second, is it Piba based? 701 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:26,040 And we know, we know more and more that PIBA again, isn't like 702 00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,480 the only foam that can have these high performance 703 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,920 qualities. So could it be that companies 704 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,080 start reporting more of their resilience data? 705 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,600 Do you see any any I have any ideas about how shoe companies 706 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,360 could help people differentiate between shoes a little bit 707 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,240 better in that regard? That's such a, that's such a 708 00:38:46,240 --> 00:38:49,280 good question. I mean, we do have kind of 709 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,720 access to our lab data, but we always kind of go back to what 710 00:38:54,720 --> 00:38:57,840 the consumer expects from it because you're right, like they 711 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,640 do go to like, is it Peeba doesn't have a plate? 712 00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,360 But the majority of people actually would not be satisfied 713 00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,360 with what those two things do because of just durability and 714 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:10,120 then just kind of a stiffness of a plate. 715 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,680 So again, we always kind of go back to what the consumer 716 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,280 expects from that product. And most of the time, they still 717 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:18,480 want it to be durable. They still want it to last a 718 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:20,560 long time, especially if you're spending 180. 719 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:24,360 Now there are shoes that I will only spend $250 on and it'll 720 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,120 give you my best advantage and my best like PR then great. 721 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,560 That's a fantastic thing to have and we'll give you everything 722 00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:33,480 you need to do that. But right now, if you expect a 723 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,240 shoe to last, like we got to make sure that we build that 724 00:39:36,240 --> 00:39:40,080 into any, you know, responsive property, softness properties 725 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:42,120 and everything that kind of makes the shoe great. 726 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:45,160 Absolutely. And you know, for us shoe 727 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,320 reviewers and you working in the shoe industry, it's easy to 728 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:52,480 focus on like the most expensive product or like the racing shoe. 729 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,640 But the reality is the vast majority of runners maybe don't 730 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,480 care about having a super shoe. They just want a shoe that's 731 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:04,080 comfortable and is going to last, you know, more than 150 732 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,360 miles. So I think that's a good point 733 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,840 that, you know, we have to look at the whole picture, not just, 734 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,640 oh, is this the lightest, bounciest, you know, most. 735 00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,000 Responsive shoe that I can run my marathon in but is maybe only 736 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,240 going to last 50 miles. Yeah. 737 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,960 And I mean, if you look at the way our industry is, we've gone 738 00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,400 through like growing booms. And right now we're in a growing 739 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,080 boom of like you just see run crews and run clubs popping up 740 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:31,800 everywhere even more than before. 741 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,520 And the the diversity of run clubs are bigger than ever 742 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:39,120 before. And so when you look at that, 743 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,280 you kind of look at how they segment themselves, what their 744 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,000 expectations are. And like I said, a lot of those 745 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,920 people now are self selecting into responsive cushion shoes. 746 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,480 And if they self select into that, they still expect like 747 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,000 this is still my first, maybe my first experience. 748 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,960 You know, we assume that a first experience might be a ghost, but 749 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,240 a first experience now might be a high period in two. 750 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:01,720 And if that is their first experience in the running world, 751 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,800 let's give them, you know, the best advantage we can as far as 752 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,560 just foam resiliency. But again, in packages where it 753 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,160 fits a little bit better, it kind of holds their foot on the 754 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:11,720 platform. It just kind of gets out of the 755 00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:14,600 way and that gives them the best experience to continue for you 756 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:16,600 to grow the industry at the rate it's going at. 757 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,920 Yeah, I would agree. I've seen it feels like there 758 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,040 are new or growing run clubs everywhere where I live and it's 759 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,640 very cool to see. And if you look at them, it's 760 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:31,320 not full of, you know, people who are qualifying for Boston. 761 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:32,960 It's just people who love to run. 762 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,840 They maybe don't do any races. They just enjoy running and they 763 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,920 want to be with other people who enjoy running. 764 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,600 So I think it's really important for all of us in like the media 765 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:48,840 and industry to remember that it's not just all about racing 766 00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:50,560 shoes. It's fun to talk about. 767 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,040 I mean, again, you know, it's so fun to talk about, but you're 768 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,320 right, there is a huge segment of the running industry that 769 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:59,480 they don't even know plates exist. 770 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,600 And so we want to make sure we give them the best product, you 771 00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:05,560 know, regardless of that. But again, when we talk about 772 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,240 new plate iterations, new phones, like it's fun because we 773 00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:11,800 know that the industry is progressing and having a lot of 774 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,720 fun doing it. And I think that's like how we 775 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:16,600 embody this industry in general, right? 776 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:20,120 Like we go out there, we go for a run, we want it to, we want to 777 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:21,680 enjoy it, we want to keep doing it. 778 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,560 And so like, we're trying to build in fun through technology, 779 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,560 but someone just wants fun, you know, as just part of their 780 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,120 everyday experience, so. Absolutely, Yeah. 781 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:34,400 So let's move on from the Hyperion line and let's talk 782 00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,720 about the Ghost Max, because that was quite a shoe for you 783 00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:41,840 guys last year, wasn't it? It set some records, I think, 784 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,840 for Brooks, like you. You sold a lot of Ghostmax's, 785 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:45,800 right? We did. 786 00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,160 Yeah, we did. All right, so here's Ghostmax 2. 787 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,880 So it's it feels a little different than one, but 788 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,000 definitely same DNA, I'd say. But the thing that was so great 789 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,480 about Ghostmax one same about two. 790 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:08,360 It's a very stable neutral shoe, really wide base, works well 791 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:14,560 with orthotics and it just because it's stable neutral 792 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,920 doesn't really push people in any One Direction. 793 00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,840 It works really well for a lot of different runners, people 794 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,120 with different bio mechanics and it works well for walkers, 795 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:26,920 people who are just on their feet all day. 796 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,040 And I think that's part of the reason that it was so 797 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:31,640 successful. And I'm sure you've got lots of 798 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:34,440 data about why it was so successful. 799 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,240 So can you tell us a little bit about what you changed in 800 00:43:38,240 --> 00:43:42,680 version two, What people who love version one should expect 801 00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:45,560 in this one? Because I have not gotten many 802 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:48,640 miles in this. So I would like to hear your 803 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:53,280 update first, of course. Well, to your point, Ghost Max 804 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,680 one had a very good start, I don't think. 805 00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:59,600 Well, we we I think we we knew we had something special, but 806 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,320 you can never anticipate like how well something does from the 807 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,160 jump. So again, very thrilled where 808 00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,160 Ghost Max one started. And because of that, we didn't 809 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,120 want to go too crazy with ghost Max 2. 810 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,560 So we wanted to evolve it, but we knew that if like we went 811 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,240 kind of too crazy, added, you know, technologies that weren't 812 00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:22,200 proven or really evolved it in unnecessary ways that we might 813 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,160 lose the people that we really grabbed a hold of in the first 814 00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,200 version. So that was the most important 815 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,560 thing is just kind of a slow evolution versus like let's go 816 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,800 as fast as possible. So when we looked at that from a 817 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,840 bio mechanic point of view, again, business as usual, you 818 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,080 know, we wanted to make sure that it had a nice role from 819 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:41,520 heel to toe. We could lock up that 4 foot to 820 00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:45,160 kind of give that ease of transition very important kind 821 00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,000 of for that consumer. And so that didn't change. 822 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,440 The last didn't change to your point, like it's one of our most 823 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,400 accommodating last that we have in the line. 824 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:57,400 So it fits high volume feet, low volume feet, wider feet, 825 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,560 orthotics, you know, those were definitely things that we wanted 826 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,800 to carry over an anniversary from 1:00 to 2:00. 827 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:07,680 But the biggest update is really going from lofi 2 to lofi 3 and 828 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:10,720 that's kind of your Eva to your supercritical foam now. 829 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:15,600 And so the properties that we found in Lofi 3 versus Lofi 2 is 830 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,440 really just like it's a little a little bit softer overall. 831 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:22,520 So when people would go into those shoes, you know, we don't 832 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,920 want to just make like a high stack and have it just kind of 833 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:27,600 be firm. So we kind of took that high 834 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,640 stack and then we made it just a little bit softer, a little bit 835 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,560 more deformation, but then obviously made sure that we 836 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,520 locked up the areas that we needed to. 837 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,640 I think that was kind of the interesting thing about Ghost 838 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,880 Max One in general is we kind of had two consumers, one who kind 839 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,800 of felt that it was like a fun new transition, something that 840 00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,360 was unexpected and they didn't experience, and they found value 841 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,560 in that. And then the people who found 842 00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:52,840 value in that, it just felt natural, like that's how their 843 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,080 foot naturally moves. They need to kind of lock up 844 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,920 their foot in order for it to kind of operate the way that 845 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:00,640 they need to. And so we found that people who 846 00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:04,680 were kind of from two different sides actually found that they 847 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:06,800 were loving the feeling of this, even though they were coming 848 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,640 from it from different angles. So I think one of the biggest 849 00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:15,640 things that made Ghost Max One such a great shoe for a number 850 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,000 of people was one, there weren't many shoes on the market 851 00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,840 previously designed to take orthotics. 852 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,400 And of those shoes, they were all very heavy. 853 00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:29,560 So Ghost Max One was I think at least 2 oz lighter, maybe even 3 854 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,160 oz lighter than any of the other shoes on the market that were 855 00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,840 like stated that they were designed for orthotics. 856 00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:38,960 So that's a big deal. People don't want to run in a 857 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,320 heavy clunker of a shoe just because you need custom 858 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,640 orthotics or need an over the counter orthotic. 859 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,200 So that I'm sure that helped you sell a number of shoes. 860 00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:52,800 But then two Ghost Max one was just so well designed as a 861 00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,240 stable neutral shoe in that it didn't push you in anyone 862 00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,160 direction, but it really did a good job of just keeping your 863 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,600 foot centered no matter what, like small stability needs you 864 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,440 did. So I'm again, I wish I had more 865 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:12,640 miles on Ghost Max 2 so I could give more comments, but I've 866 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,240 been getting miles on Hyperion Max 2 and Hyperion two. 867 00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,840 Yes, because of your, you know, those two shoes are out now and 868 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:24,440 Ghost Max 2 is not out yet. So we kind of do them in order. 869 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,480 But I'm looking forward to testing it out and seeing if the 870 00:47:29,480 --> 00:47:32,160 ride is similar to last year's version. 871 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:34,560 Yeah. I think overall, like if there 872 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:37,640 were kind of two ways to sum it up, like just a little bit more 873 00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,640 comfortable under foot feeling. And then as far as like 874 00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:44,280 durability goes, we kind of looked, took a look at the tread 875 00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,720 and basically the positioning of the tread and then how much we 876 00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:49,320 were using it and just making sure it was kind of well 877 00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:52,360 positioned to be able to kind of like grip whether you're walking 878 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:54,000 or running in. It was kind of an important 879 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,200 update to that shoe as well. So can we talk a little bit 880 00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:01,480 about stable neutral shoes and you know, I'm sure this is more 881 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:06,880 of a question for the R&D team, but how does your team approach 882 00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:11,440 stable neutral features? How do you decide just 883 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,760 specifically what geometry to use in a given shoe? 884 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:18,960 Yeah, again, definitely I would lean towards the bio mechanic 885 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,640 team. But to your point, like it 886 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,240 always starts with bio mechanics, whether or not you're 887 00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:27,800 a low deviator or high deviator, you know, you're a former 888 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,000 neutral person or a stability person. 889 00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,200 Everybody needs support. And so when we look at the 890 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:37,320 geometries of our shoes, like they should support you whether 891 00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,840 or not you think you need it. The goal is to keep you on your 892 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,840 direct motion path. So as you're running or walking, 893 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,560 whatever your body wants to do, we just want to kind of help you 894 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,320 do that. And that way your body can 895 00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,360 absorb shock and stay injury free. 896 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:52,640 And so that's kind of built into to every shoe that we do. 897 00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,800 But obviously when you look at shoes like the Ghost has been 898 00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,440 one of the best shoes kind of for that categorically. 899 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,040 And how has your team changed its approach to stability over 900 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,880 the years? You know, we're seeing fewer 901 00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:09,000 medial posts, we're seeing more non traditional stability 902 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,120 features. So what is Brooke's overarching 903 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,520 philosophy towards stability now as compared to 10 or 15 years 904 00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:17,480 ago? Yeah. 905 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,520 I think the the biggest change that we saw is like when you 906 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,480 would interview again consumers, they would say, OK, what do you 907 00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:26,440 want out of shoe? I want it to be lightweight, I 908 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:28,520 want it to be supportive and I want it to be cushioned. 909 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,200 OK, you can and say that literally about any shoe in our 910 00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,600 line. And so how do we digest that and 911 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,880 evolve it for them for the best? And so we found that consumers 912 00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,640 were basically separating themselves by experience. 913 00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,240 So I want a super soft shoe that is like super squishy, OK, 914 00:49:46,240 --> 00:49:48,600 that's an insight. Or I want a shoe that rebounds 915 00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,280 really quickly, OK, that's an insight. 916 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,200 Both of those people want support at the end of the day. 917 00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,800 And so we've looked at kind of our line and how we can evolve 918 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,840 it from an experience point of view, knowing now we're always 919 00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,000 going to build in support no matter what. 920 00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:05,080 And support is just keeping you on your motion path and making 921 00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,360 sure it's biomechanically sound. So I think when you look at 922 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:11,000 consumers, to your point, they would see a rigid structure and 923 00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,800 that was support to them. They're now starting to realize 924 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:17,640 that they can get in support and brands that they trust and now 925 00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,240 they can kind of self select into the experience that they 926 00:50:20,240 --> 00:50:22,960 want out of that support. Yeah, there are different ways 927 00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,720 certainly to provide support to runners with different 928 00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:31,240 biomechanical needs. And I know the Hyperion GTS is 929 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:37,840 one of very few stability, low stack, you know, performance 930 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:39,720 trainers. You could use it as a racing 931 00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:42,480 flat. I know Matt and Bach have really 932 00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,400 enjoyed testing that shoe out so. 933 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,840 Yeah, it's a it's a great shoe. It's, it's a category that is 934 00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:53,160 kind of difficult to quantify sometimes because there aren't a 935 00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,200 lot of people that understand that they can kind of self 936 00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:57,960 select into that. If they like a shoe that 937 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:01,200 responsive and they want guide rails or they want obviously 938 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,080 something more stable that there is a shoe out there for them. 939 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,200 Because when you look at the competitive landscape, there's 940 00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,760 just not a lot of opportunities to select into that. 941 00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,600 So we have a little sweet spot there, which is really nice and 942 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,120 we'll see how it evolves in the future. 943 00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,320 But making sure that, you know, we bring in all those consumers 944 00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:20,720 and support them equally. So where do you think, and 945 00:51:20,720 --> 00:51:23,960 you're kind of alluded to this when I asked you about 2025 and 946 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,640 you said there will be some big geometry changes for the the 947 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:32,400 Hyperion Elite and Max. But do you think that there will 948 00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,920 be more changes in geometry in the future, more changes in foam 949 00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,240 or is it going to continue to be like a little of both? 950 00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:47,440 Definitely both for sure. Again, we right now as a brand 951 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,520 like we're evolving, I think this like responsive cushion 952 00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:53,680 formally kind of speed category, we're evolving it super quickly. 953 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,600 And so when you look at kind of like tech transfers, a lot of 954 00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,080 them are going into that product. 955 00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:02,920 But I think you'll start to see now consumers being more savvy 956 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,720 about what they can expect in more like balanced products, so 957 00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:08,720 more like ghosts and glycerins. And so we're going to have to 958 00:52:08,720 --> 00:52:11,880 like give them new opportunities to self select into those as 959 00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:15,600 well. So from geometries, from foams, 960 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,240 I mean, we're going to throw everything at those shoes. 961 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,000 We're still going to give you a shoe that again, you can rely 962 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,160 on, which is ghost and glycerin, you know, two of the most 963 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,080 reliable shoes in our line. But then how can we open up more 964 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:29,520 consumers to that experience and kind of grow those shoes to 965 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:32,000 allow people to feel something maybe they didn't think they 966 00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,840 needed and now they do. And that's what, you know, Max 967 00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:36,720 product did. Obviously when we went into 968 00:52:36,720 --> 00:52:39,680 these like, you know, higher stack shoes, people didn't 969 00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,400 understand or realize that that was something that was natural 970 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,640 to their foot. There are other ways that we can 971 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,560 unlock the foot to make it feel more natural that I think aren't 972 00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:50,680 being done right now. Well, it'll be very interesting 973 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,880 to see what comes out next year in the years beyond. 974 00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:58,240 One last question. So what would you say, if any, 975 00:52:58,240 --> 00:53:01,800 the biggest change in your design philosophy at Brooks has 976 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,440 been over the past several years? 977 00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,920 Yeah. I think as a a bio mechanic LED 978 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,720 company that was always first and foremost everything that we 979 00:53:10,720 --> 00:53:14,160 LED with and consumers really resonated with that because one 980 00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,800 of the biggest things that they were looking for is to be you 981 00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,160 know, pain and injury free. And so we've been great at that 982 00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:24,240 for a very long time now. I think consumers are starting 983 00:53:24,240 --> 00:53:28,480 to bring in kind of some of these outside influences into 984 00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:30,880 running. And so because running is going 985 00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,600 at a crazy rate, you see people coming from, you know, soccer 986 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:38,240 players, coming from boxing, coming from basketball into the 987 00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:41,200 running industry and kind of bringing this influence into 988 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,440 there. And so you'll start to see what 989 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:46,720 we call kind of our crafted beauty really evolve like the 990 00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:50,240 materials that we pick, the I stay executions, the tongue 991 00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:51,920 executions. Again, that knit tongue is a 992 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,280 good example in the Hyperion Max two of taking something that's 993 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,680 not traditionally just like a lightweight tongue for a 994 00:53:57,680 --> 00:54:02,040 responsive cushion product and kind of expanding its uses. 995 00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:06,160 So, you know, to give you an example, I met a consumer who 996 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,320 was a former boxer, and during the pandemic, his boxing gym 997 00:54:09,320 --> 00:54:11,600 shut down. And now he's a competitive 998 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,840 runner because he found that love for running. 999 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,320 And so whenever he buys product or kind of puts together his 1000 00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:21,080 outfit, he takes that influence from like his former boxing life 1001 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:22,720 and brings it to the running silos. 1002 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,960 So I think that's kind of cool. As running is start to expand, 1003 00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:30,640 so will materials, logo executions. 1004 00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,000 Just the way that we make product from top to bottom will 1005 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,120 be influenced from all these different places. 1006 00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,040 So I think that's a really cool spot for us to be in. 1007 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,280 Yeah, and very interesting. Well, Tina, thank you so much 1008 00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,720 for joining us today. This has been great. 1009 00:54:44,720 --> 00:54:47,320 I've certainly learned a lot about some of my favorite 1010 00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:48,880 cheers. And I hope that our listeners 1011 00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:52,240 have also learned a lot just about Brooks design philosophy 1012 00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:54,760 and where these shoes have come from. 1013 00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,560 Do you have any other closing thoughts for our listeners? 1014 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,120 Anything else you would like our listeners to know? 1015 00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:05,040 No, I think you said you learned a lot today. 1016 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,080 I learned a lot from you guys. So I want you to know that every 1017 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,600 time I listen to you guys, like there's always a little nugget I 1018 00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:13,400 take home. So I just appreciate, you know, 1019 00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,240 you guys doing what you do and having me on and me being a 1020 00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:18,640 little bit a part of the process. 1021 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:19,960 Like, I'm very grateful for that. 1022 00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,680 Oh well, thank you so much, Tina, and to our listeners, 1023 00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,560 thanks for listening. If you have any questions or 1024 00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:30,080 thoughts, please leave a comment down below. 1025 00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,200 If you're watching on YouTube, if you're listening on the 1026 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,280 podcast app, you can send us a message at 1027 00:55:36,280 --> 00:55:40,920 doctorsofrunning@gmail.com or find us on all the usual social 1028 00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:43,840 media channels and send them some message there. 1029 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:46,160 Thanks everyone, and thanks Tina.