1 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:11,684 Hey everyone, welcome to the Doctors of Running Podcast, 2 00:00:11,684 --> 00:00:14,880 where we, a group of Doctors of Physical Therapy, talk about the 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:17,760 art and the science, the things that we're putting on our feet. 4 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,879 Today it is Dr. Myers and myself, Matt Klein. 5 00:00:20,879 --> 00:00:23,480 We are gonna tackle some recovery stuff because people 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,079 won't stop asking us about, hey, this that's mean. 7 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:30,126 But we get a lot of questions about, hey, all these extra 8 00:00:30,126 --> 00:00:32,259 recovery tools. And that we totally understand 9 00:00:32,259 --> 00:00:35,468 because now more than ever, you know, our algorithms, people are 10 00:00:35,468 --> 00:00:37,359 getting hit by advertisements super hard. 11 00:00:37,359 --> 00:00:39,599 Companies are really trying to sell product. 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,287 But we're going to be very honest with you about what 13 00:00:42,287 --> 00:00:44,778 clinically our experiences are and what the evidence is also 14 00:00:44,778 --> 00:00:46,923 showing so that you can make evidence-informed decisions 15 00:00:46,923 --> 00:00:50,295 about what's really best for you and where you can really focus 16 00:00:50,295 --> 00:00:54,181 your time, which is probably not where you think it is if you're 17 00:00:54,181 --> 00:00:56,135 listening to those advertisements, but we're gonna 18 00:00:56,135 --> 00:00:58,703 talk about that. So we're gonna first, we're 19 00:00:58,703 --> 00:01:01,487 really, really thankful for our podcast sponsor, Rabbit. 20 00:01:01,487 --> 00:01:06,570 They've been really amazing. You can get 10% off your order 21 00:01:06,570 --> 00:01:12,556 of $50 or more using the code SPOOKYDOCS10, all capitals, no 22 00:01:12,556 --> 00:01:17,004 spaces. Do we need to spell that out? 23 00:01:17,004 --> 00:01:22,005 S-P-O-O-K-Y-D-O-C-S-10. So again, 10 bucks off on $50 or 24 00:01:22,005 --> 00:01:23,870 more. And I've been really enjoying 25 00:01:23,870 --> 00:01:25,966 stuff. I just got a couple more pairs 26 00:01:25,966 --> 00:01:28,319 of socks because I really love their trail socks. 27 00:01:28,320 --> 00:01:30,447 The normal ones are just a little bit too compressive for 28 00:01:30,447 --> 00:01:31,875 me. We'll talk about compression 29 00:01:31,875 --> 00:01:35,054 stuff in just a second, but for me, having the Achilles 30 00:01:35,054 --> 00:01:37,450 tendinopathy, which is getting better, that really significant 31 00:01:37,450 --> 00:01:40,814 compression doesn't do as well. The trail socks have just the 32 00:01:40,814 --> 00:01:43,416 right hold and they're super comfortable and they have 33 00:01:43,416 --> 00:01:46,982 really, really great colors. They have a buy two, get one 34 00:01:46,982 --> 00:01:51,124 free sale, which of course I went and bought four, and now 35 00:01:51,124 --> 00:01:53,359 six pairs of. So really, really enjoying the 36 00:01:53,359 --> 00:01:54,830 stuff. And of course, I'm still 37 00:01:54,830 --> 00:01:57,039 enjoying the Doctors of Running apparel that they have. 38 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,679 Andrea, any stuff that you're really enjoying from them? 39 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,082 I love all these easy tees we got, which mine is the same as 40 00:02:04,082 --> 00:02:06,000 yours, just doesn't have the DOR logo. 41 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,429 My favorite Rabbit stuff is definitely their short tights. 42 00:02:09,429 --> 00:02:14,000 So I love their Speed Leggies, the two inch and four inch. 43 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,406 I have a couple pairs that are probably five years old at this 44 00:02:17,406 --> 00:02:20,908 point, and I wear them every week and they're still in great 45 00:02:20,908 --> 00:02:23,206 shape. So definitely great value there. 46 00:02:23,206 --> 00:02:27,540 I love their crop tops. The racing crop that we got DOR 47 00:02:27,540 --> 00:02:30,990 branded this year is probably my favorite one they've made 48 00:02:30,990 --> 00:02:34,884 because it's not too tight around the rib cage, so it 49 00:02:34,884 --> 00:02:37,020 doesn't inhibit your breathing at all. 50 00:02:37,020 --> 00:02:40,215 Their jackets are really great. They sent I forget what it's 51 00:02:40,215 --> 00:02:42,800 called, but it's just like a wind jacket without a hood. 52 00:02:43,039 --> 00:02:47,011 It's nice having one that is hoodless for when it's just cool 53 00:02:47,011 --> 00:02:50,319 but it's not raining and you don't need that hood. 54 00:02:50,319 --> 00:02:54,787 That one's really nice. So I I pretty much love all 55 00:02:54,787 --> 00:02:57,755 Rabbit clothing. Although I can't say I think I 56 00:02:57,755 --> 00:03:01,549 have one pair of their socks. I like really thin socks, so 57 00:03:01,549 --> 00:03:03,824 they're probably not my favorite, but basically 58 00:03:03,824 --> 00:03:06,172 everything else they make I really like. 59 00:03:06,172 --> 00:03:09,736 Other company socks that I kept, like, they were super nice, 60 00:03:09,736 --> 00:03:12,816 super thin ones, but they just wouldn't last because I'm so 61 00:03:12,816 --> 00:03:14,448 hard on them. The Rabbit socks have been 62 00:03:14,448 --> 00:03:16,080 really good and have held up really well. 63 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,145 The other thing I really am enjoying right now is I have 64 00:03:19,145 --> 00:03:22,240 several pairs of the the tight the half tights, the Speedsters, 65 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:25,840 but the Low Light version, it is very helpful. 66 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:29,112 Most mornings, Monday, Wednesday, I'm in rural Newberg 67 00:03:29,112 --> 00:03:33,544 running around there in the early morning before I teach and 68 00:03:33,544 --> 00:03:35,200 there's not a lot of lights. Those are great. 69 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,372 I've had several students go, wow, I can see you from like a 70 00:03:38,372 --> 00:03:40,319 mile away with headlamps because they really reflect. 71 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:43,739 So definitely low light, super helpful for staying safe as 72 00:03:43,739 --> 00:03:45,802 well. Although I need to stay on safer 73 00:03:45,802 --> 00:03:47,520 roads, which is also my problem anyway. 74 00:03:48,159 --> 00:03:51,912 I got a pair of the Low Light Speed Leggie four inches and the 75 00:03:51,912 --> 00:03:55,868 short sleeve that goes with it. And it is crazy how reflective 76 00:03:55,868 --> 00:03:56,960 they're different. Yeah. 77 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,598 Even even when it's not dark out, it just any amount of 78 00:04:00,598 --> 00:04:02,719 light, it just makes you more visible. 79 00:04:02,719 --> 00:04:05,436 So I've really enjoyed those. And the fit of the shorts is the 80 00:04:05,436 --> 00:04:07,074 same as the other ones. which is great. 81 00:04:07,074 --> 00:04:09,052 If you're trying to take photos though, they're not great 82 00:04:09,052 --> 00:04:10,575 because they will literally obscure the camera. 83 00:04:10,575 --> 00:04:13,992 I think Nathan was having a heck of a time trying to get photos 84 00:04:13,992 --> 00:04:16,220 for that. And he's like, I literally 85 00:04:16,220 --> 00:04:19,700 can't, I guess any flash just, I can't do it. 86 00:04:19,700 --> 00:04:20,744 Right. So yeah. 87 00:04:20,744 --> 00:04:24,010 That is our main sponsor. We're gonna go into our 88 00:04:24,010 --> 00:04:26,458 in-for-testing, which is sponsored by Skratch Labs, which 89 00:04:26,458 --> 00:04:30,539 as always again, their discount, 20% off your first order, is 90 00:04:30,539 --> 00:04:32,079 DOCTORSOFRUNNING, all capital letters. 91 00:04:32,079 --> 00:04:35,536 But Andrea, what do you have for in-for-testing? 92 00:04:35,536 --> 00:04:38,200 All right. So I just got this shoe in, and 93 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,120 after David got to run in it, I'm super excited to test it. 94 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:43,760 And that is the Skechers Aero Elite. 95 00:04:44,079 --> 00:04:47,303 I haven't gotten any miles on it yet, but just trying it on, 96 00:04:47,303 --> 00:04:51,035 walking around, I think it's going to be a shoe that I like. 97 00:04:51,035 --> 00:04:54,190 The fit is nice. This shoe is super light. 98 00:04:54,190 --> 00:04:59,400 It's 5.9 ounces for a men's 9. 40 millimeters in the heel, 36 99 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,160 in the forefoot, four millimeter drop. 100 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,952 The forefoot is just wide enough that it feels pretty comfortable 101 00:05:05,952 --> 00:05:08,157 for me. And then the midfoot and rear 102 00:05:08,157 --> 00:05:11,193 foot are nice and secure. So I think the fit's gonna work. 103 00:05:11,193 --> 00:05:14,321 I like the feel of the midsole. So excited to start getting some 104 00:05:14,321 --> 00:05:17,039 miles on it this week. Have you run in your pair yet? 105 00:05:17,280 --> 00:05:20,002 I've actually got 25, 30 miles on my pair. 106 00:05:20,002 --> 00:05:22,720 I really like what they've done, the ATPU foam. 107 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:25,279 It's not the most responsive thing in the market. 108 00:05:25,519 --> 00:05:29,131 I think it's got this nice resilient bounce to it where it 109 00:05:29,131 --> 00:05:31,839 holds on and it hasn't lost any of that. 110 00:05:31,840 --> 00:05:33,935 But ATPU foams typically do that. 111 00:05:33,935 --> 00:05:38,123 It feels really good at like half marathon 10K pace, which is 112 00:05:38,123 --> 00:05:40,833 not what I expected. I thought like, oh, it's gonna 113 00:05:40,833 --> 00:05:43,461 be like a 5K, 10K, which is always what I think of 114 00:05:43,461 --> 00:05:44,960 everything. And then I'm like, oh. 115 00:05:44,959 --> 00:05:48,131 What I, again, the fit is like just right where I didn't think 116 00:05:48,131 --> 00:05:51,467 I was gonna, I thought, oh, it's gonna be too nimble, too, but 117 00:05:51,467 --> 00:05:54,615 no, it actually holds very nice. There's a surprising amount of 118 00:05:54,615 --> 00:05:57,282 room in the forefoot. The only thing I don't like is 119 00:05:57,282 --> 00:05:59,886 what a lot of companies are doing where this the heel kind 120 00:05:59,886 --> 00:06:02,799 of comes and pivots in, and that is putting a little extra 121 00:06:02,799 --> 00:06:05,279 pressure on my Achilles, but heel counter is more flexible 122 00:06:05,439 --> 00:06:07,600 than other stuff. The other thing that I'm having 123 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,000 trouble with, it's a great shoe if you're landing farther 124 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,320 forward and if you have neutral mechanics, that heel is a little 125 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,588 bit wobbly. So Andrea, you're not going to 126 00:06:15,588 --> 00:06:18,160 have trouble with that. I am having a little trouble 127 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,295 with that. I've done some eight to ten mile 128 00:06:20,295 --> 00:06:23,363 workouts in it, and while I do enjoy the shoe, I think you're 129 00:06:23,363 --> 00:06:26,299 gonna need to have more stable mechanics to really get the best 130 00:06:26,299 --> 00:06:29,373 out of the shoe. But I will say the way they 131 00:06:29,373 --> 00:06:32,661 designed the plate, which you can actually see, it's not full 132 00:06:32,661 --> 00:06:34,030 width. They were really intelligent for 133 00:06:34,030 --> 00:06:36,801 trying to reduce rate and weight and trying to go, hey, where can 134 00:06:36,801 --> 00:06:38,228 we put holes? It's still stiff. 135 00:06:38,228 --> 00:06:41,897 And again, when I went to go push it for 5K effort, it did 136 00:06:41,897 --> 00:06:43,750 respond. Is it necessarily the shoe I 137 00:06:43,750 --> 00:06:46,392 would choose for that? I'm not sure about that for 138 00:06:46,392 --> 00:06:48,240 like, but for 10K half marathon, great. 139 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:50,810 If you have neutral mechanics, I think there's enough cushioning 140 00:06:50,810 --> 00:06:54,035 here that you could take this for a marathon if you are that 141 00:06:54,035 --> 00:06:56,125 kind of faster runner that wants that kind of thing. 142 00:06:56,125 --> 00:06:58,000 But for a lot of us, it's pretty aggressive. 143 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:02,795 Good job, Skechers, for putting out the first true super racer. 144 00:07:02,795 --> 00:07:09,025 I mean, is it the first one? We had like the, what is it, 145 00:07:09,025 --> 00:07:13,118 Speed Beast, the Speed Elite. Do those not count? 146 00:07:13,118 --> 00:07:16,592 I don't know. I feel like this one is in a 147 00:07:16,592 --> 00:07:18,959 different league though. This is a totally different one. 148 00:07:18,959 --> 00:07:20,800 This is the year of the underdog. 149 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,440 Not to say Skechers is the underdog, but this is the like, 150 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,340 hey, like I'm really loving the Valkyrie Elite 2 too, which I'll 151 00:07:26,340 --> 00:07:28,783 talk about in a second. These, Puma continues to make 152 00:07:28,783 --> 00:07:31,387 some really big pushes. It's like, wow, y'all, this is 153 00:07:31,387 --> 00:07:33,013 the underdog year of racing shoes. 154 00:07:33,013 --> 00:07:34,639 There's been some really cool stuff. 155 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,856 So yeah, that's, I would say, Specter Elite would be like the 156 00:07:38,856 --> 00:07:40,800 number one underdog. Sorry, for me. 157 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:41,950 Forgot to mention Topo. Yeah. 158 00:07:41,950 --> 00:07:43,329 Topo. That would be like the number 159 00:07:43,329 --> 00:07:45,180 one for sure. Like first attempt, boom, out of 160 00:07:45,180 --> 00:07:47,880 the gate. I did have to wear heel lifts 161 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,680 with these because the four millimeter drop feels very it 162 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:53,633 feels almost zero in these. So if that's what you like, 163 00:07:53,633 --> 00:07:55,705 great. I needed the heel lift because I 164 00:07:55,705 --> 00:07:58,279 couldn't handle it. Oh, I've got to say one more 165 00:07:58,279 --> 00:08:00,847 thing about it. So often the arch fit of other 166 00:08:00,847 --> 00:08:02,639 Skechers shoes does not work for me. 167 00:08:02,639 --> 00:08:05,280 It feels too high. This shoe doesn't have it. 168 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:08,969 There's pretty much no arch support in there, so it feels 169 00:08:08,969 --> 00:08:12,919 great for people like me who do not like significant arch 170 00:08:12,919 --> 00:08:17,119 support. So one more good thing Skechers 171 00:08:17,119 --> 00:08:20,719 did in this shoe. Sorry, Matt. 172 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,112 And then the other shoe that came I'm kind of in like a 173 00:08:24,112 --> 00:08:26,358 transition period with shoe testing where I have gotten 174 00:08:26,358 --> 00:08:30,289 several new shoes, one of which I can't talk talk about, 175 00:08:30,289 --> 00:08:33,280 channeling David here. The embargo on it is January, 176 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:38,080 but it is a very different shoe. I can't wait for us to be able 177 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:42,118 to talk about it. But this shoe came in last week. 178 00:08:42,118 --> 00:08:46,804 It's the Altra Vanish Tempo 2. I think it has promise, but I'm 179 00:08:46,804 --> 00:08:51,108 not running in this one because it fits really short in my usual 180 00:08:51,108 --> 00:08:54,189 women's 9.5. So if Altra sends me a 10, I 181 00:08:54,189 --> 00:08:59,069 hope to get some miles on it, but there is no way I can run in 182 00:08:59,069 --> 00:09:01,394 this shoe. But I know you've been 183 00:09:01,394 --> 00:09:03,104 suffering, not suffering too much. 184 00:09:03,104 --> 00:09:05,840 Yeah, yeah. No, it's been a good shoe. 185 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,720 I think I actually like this and appreciate it more than the 186 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,120 Vanish Carbon 3, which I think is a solid shoe. 187 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,788 This one, the foam, even though I don't know if that's true 188 00:09:15,788 --> 00:09:20,714 exactly, it feels like a TPU midsole, or maybe what is it? 189 00:09:20,714 --> 00:09:22,568 It's PEBA. Okay, so I was wrong. 190 00:09:22,568 --> 00:09:25,472 Everything in the shoe is PEBA, the plate and the foam. 191 00:09:25,472 --> 00:09:28,560 Well, it feels great underfoot. I've done some faster workouts 192 00:09:28,560 --> 00:09:31,439 where I totally lost control and went too fast. 193 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:36,100 I've done a lot of long runs in this shoe and it feels great 194 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:38,587 underfoot, very resilient foam, bouncy, without having that 195 00:09:38,587 --> 00:09:41,890 full, like it's not too stiff. Like, like yes, there's a Pebax 196 00:09:41,890 --> 00:09:44,090 plate, but there's some flexibility, which feels nice, 197 00:09:44,090 --> 00:09:47,116 especially for uptempo long runs, which I just did this 198 00:09:47,116 --> 00:09:48,970 morning. It's just a smooth underfoot 199 00:09:48,970 --> 00:09:51,281 ride. I will say with the PEBA foam, 200 00:09:51,281 --> 00:09:54,709 it does almost, it's supposedly four, if you're an Altra fan and 201 00:09:54,709 --> 00:09:57,040 you want that zero, it feels like a zero drop shoe. 202 00:09:57,039 --> 00:10:00,841 So again, another one I did have to put a heel lift in, but that 203 00:10:00,841 --> 00:10:02,811 has been fine. Durability's also been fairly 204 00:10:02,811 --> 00:10:06,737 good, which has been a struggle for Altra, and I think the full 205 00:10:06,737 --> 00:10:09,840 length outsole rubber has been really, really nice for that. 206 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:13,503 But yeah, the midsole is PEBA, it's not losing its bounce, it's 207 00:10:13,503 --> 00:10:16,377 holding really well. But yes, the upper is where I'm 208 00:10:16,377 --> 00:10:18,960 having a teeny bit of trouble. It's very wide. 209 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:21,789 So it's not Altra's, like, racing last, at least it doesn't 210 00:10:21,789 --> 00:10:24,072 feel like it. Where and it you've had trouble 211 00:10:24,072 --> 00:10:26,836 with that, where like the forefoot's just a little bit too 212 00:10:26,836 --> 00:10:29,564 narrow, which is weird. Like right at where like the the 213 00:10:29,564 --> 00:10:31,680 throat of the shoe is. It's been kind of odd. 214 00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:35,112 But like for me, I've had the opposite where it's very wide 215 00:10:35,112 --> 00:10:38,960 and I've definitely on turns like I kind of slide it and even 216 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,120 when I'm trying to lock down the upper which the tongue is not 217 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,215 gusseted so that will move a little bit, but also the same 218 00:10:47,215 --> 00:10:51,427 thing where the toe box volume just tapers so quickly that it 219 00:10:51,427 --> 00:10:54,014 does feel short. I fortunately haven't had any 220 00:10:54,014 --> 00:10:55,902 blistering. I've taken this up to 12 miles 221 00:10:55,902 --> 00:10:58,379 and haven't had that, but walking around, I can feel that 222 00:10:58,379 --> 00:11:01,199 pressure on my toes. So half marathon, like a normal 223 00:11:01,199 --> 00:11:05,359 long run for most people, like not a l like a marathon long 224 00:11:05,359 --> 00:11:08,408 run, but like a normal long run, that's probably gonna be the 225 00:11:08,408 --> 00:11:09,819 max. I'd worry about getting some 226 00:11:09,819 --> 00:11:12,650 blistering there, unless you want to half size up, but I also 227 00:11:12,650 --> 00:11:15,790 wouldn't want this a half size up because I feel like that's 228 00:11:15,790 --> 00:11:18,720 just gonna make like it flex in the wrong place personally. 229 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:22,190 So I go a half size, true to size, sorry. 230 00:11:22,190 --> 00:11:26,002 But if that's really bothering you, I I totally get it. 231 00:11:26,002 --> 00:11:27,040 So yeah. Yeah. 232 00:11:27,039 --> 00:11:30,359 Good Yeah, I think most of our team members felt that it fits 233 00:11:30,359 --> 00:11:32,399 too much. Yep, I am the only one. 234 00:11:32,399 --> 00:11:34,920 J what was the other shoe? Just like the Endorphin Speed, 235 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:37,892 where I'm just the odd one out that either it's like feels 236 00:11:37,892 --> 00:11:39,776 different or it's fine. I'm having it work. 237 00:11:39,776 --> 00:11:42,016 Maybe that's because I'm just losing sensation to my feet. 238 00:11:42,016 --> 00:11:43,840 I'm like, I don't feel anything. It's fine. 239 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:44,320 Yeah. Yeah. 240 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,960 Just so much pain in the Achilles tendon, that's all I'd 241 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:47,920 feel. I'm just kidding. 242 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:53,373 I will agree with you. Altra is doing a lot better with 243 00:11:53,373 --> 00:11:56,320 their outsole rubber. The Torin was better. 244 00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:02,410 The Vanish Carbon 3 was better. So I think hopefully from an 245 00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:06,049 outsole durability standpoint, we'll be seeing Altra making 246 00:12:06,049 --> 00:12:08,319 some strides there. Good pun. 247 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,361 I will also say I do like the versatility of this shoe. 248 00:12:11,361 --> 00:12:12,879 Like it can handle daily training. 249 00:12:12,879 --> 00:12:16,336 That wouldn't be my biggest thing that I would use it for. 250 00:12:16,336 --> 00:12:18,640 It's much better as like an uptempo workout. 251 00:12:18,639 --> 00:12:21,087 And I think there are going to be people that could totally 252 00:12:21,087 --> 00:12:23,120 race long distances in the shoe. It it can move. 253 00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:26,455 If you push it, it will go fast. And I was kind of surprised at 254 00:12:26,455 --> 00:12:28,304 that. But yeah, definitely some big, 255 00:12:28,304 --> 00:12:30,968 like you said, big strides forward for Altra. 256 00:12:30,968 --> 00:12:32,960 Yeah. What else do you got? 257 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:35,429 That's all I've got that I can tell you. 258 00:12:35,429 --> 00:12:36,911 Got it. What have you got? 259 00:12:36,911 --> 00:12:38,640 So the other shoes, some old news. 260 00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:42,069 I'm still really enjoying the Valkyrie Elite 2 from TYR. 261 00:12:42,069 --> 00:12:45,204 Very impressed by this. I think if I finally find a 262 00:12:45,204 --> 00:12:48,480 weekend off, I might go race in this just to see what happens. 263 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:50,972 I got a lot of shoes backed up that I need to race in. 264 00:12:50,972 --> 00:12:53,103 I just don't I work so much doing acute care on the 265 00:12:53,103 --> 00:12:54,160 weekends. I don't usually have time. 266 00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:57,636 But if I did, and maybe obviously this can be a 267 00:12:57,636 --> 00:13:00,480 Thanksgiving turkey trot shoe for sure, but really enjoying 268 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,184 this, yes, and I think Andrea, you had some trouble with the 269 00:13:04,184 --> 00:13:07,306 fit, correct? Yes, and if you show our 270 00:13:07,306 --> 00:13:11,160 listeners or the people on YouTube, you can see how the 271 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,476 upper is pretty see-through. I can see just how poor of a fit 272 00:13:15,476 --> 00:13:18,385 it is because it's just squeezing my toes together 273 00:13:18,385 --> 00:13:20,000 significantly. So it's too narrow. 274 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,468 The length is fine, but there's no way I can run that. 275 00:13:23,468 --> 00:13:27,088 I've been able to tolerate that. And it does, as you wear it in, 276 00:13:27,088 --> 00:13:29,680 does stretch a little bit, so that hasn't been as bad. 277 00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:33,463 But I think because I'm so like, yeah, I've just like it's it's 278 00:13:33,463 --> 00:13:37,245 I've been able I also really want to give a kudos to the fact 279 00:13:37,245 --> 00:13:40,032 that yes, there's not really a heel counter and the very top 280 00:13:40,032 --> 00:13:42,528 has some little extra stretch for the Achilles tendon, so it 281 00:13:42,528 --> 00:13:44,532 hasn't bothered me. However, another shoe, like 282 00:13:44,532 --> 00:13:46,530 again, they say six millimeter drop. 283 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:49,520 It feels negative with how much the heel compresses. 284 00:13:49,519 --> 00:13:51,520 So, surprise, nothing, heel lift. 285 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:54,270 Does fine. I've got 40 something miles on 286 00:13:54,270 --> 00:13:57,195 my pair, and the durability is actually doing okay. 287 00:13:57,195 --> 00:13:58,895 Wow. So yeah, it's actually handle 288 00:13:58,895 --> 00:14:01,095 it. Am I the biggest fan of this 289 00:14:01,095 --> 00:14:03,896 cutout right here? I wish it was a little more full 290 00:14:03,896 --> 00:14:07,238 length, but it's working. And I think if somebody wants an 291 00:14:07,238 --> 00:14:08,923 aggressive shoe, oh another thing. 292 00:14:08,923 --> 00:14:11,280 The sidewall on it is pretty noticeable. 293 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:13,542 I feel like you would not like that. 294 00:14:13,542 --> 00:14:15,798 I'm liking it. It's more stable than I 295 00:14:15,798 --> 00:14:17,766 expected. It's not stable neutral, but 296 00:14:17,766 --> 00:14:20,799 it's handled it well. So yeah, that's been good. 297 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,468 And the final one that I keep getting way more miles on is the 298 00:14:24,468 --> 00:14:28,110 ASICS Slowcush, which I did not think I was going to like this. 299 00:14:28,110 --> 00:14:31,200 Outsole is still intact at a little over 100 kilometers. 300 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,439 It doesn't feel as mushy as they were saying. 301 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:39,101 However, the like upper super comfortable, lots of room, 302 00:14:39,101 --> 00:14:41,854 little bit wider. I will say at about 60-ish 303 00:14:41,854 --> 00:14:44,914 miles, the midsole is starting to lose a little bit of that 304 00:14:44,914 --> 00:14:48,299 bounce that it had, and it's starting to get a little bit 305 00:14:48,299 --> 00:14:51,790 more mushy and doesn't turn over nearly as it's still a great 306 00:14:51,790 --> 00:14:53,471 shoe. It's, it's, but it's really 307 00:14:53,471 --> 00:14:56,251 becoming more of that slow cush the longer it goes. 308 00:14:56,251 --> 00:15:00,784 So there's some pop early on. I am kind of losing that at 60 309 00:15:00,784 --> 00:15:03,648 miles. So we'll keep running in it and 310 00:15:03,648 --> 00:15:06,562 keep reporting back. But outside of that, the way 311 00:15:06,562 --> 00:15:09,628 geometry super smooth if you want, tons and tons of 312 00:15:09,628 --> 00:15:11,860 cushioning underfoot. The rocker is really nice, like 313 00:15:11,860 --> 00:15:14,553 it's just in the right spot where it actually totally 314 00:15:14,553 --> 00:15:18,880 unloads my Achilles tendon, but excellent. 315 00:15:19,039 --> 00:15:23,408 I guess I could briefly update our listeners on a couple 2026 316 00:15:23,408 --> 00:15:26,320 shoes that I've been getting more miles on. 317 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,083 The Topo Fli-Lyte 6 has definitely become my favorite 318 00:15:29,083 --> 00:15:33,476 sprint shoe, so I've been using that for a lot of my speed 319 00:15:33,476 --> 00:15:36,336 workouts. But I've also used the Mizuno 320 00:15:36,336 --> 00:15:39,600 Hyperwarp Pure for a number of track workouts. 321 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:44,172 I hadn't taken it below mile pace before, but I've used it 322 00:15:44,172 --> 00:15:48,320 for some like 800 pace to slightly faster than 800 pace 323 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:50,480 workouts, and it's actually doing great. 324 00:15:50,879 --> 00:15:55,109 So not that I would race an 800 in it, but like on days where 325 00:15:55,109 --> 00:15:58,764 you know I need a little more protection underfoot than my 326 00:15:58,764 --> 00:16:03,438 usual Topo Cyclones for that type of workout, I've really 327 00:16:03,438 --> 00:16:08,072 enjoyed using the Pure for it. Which I know you did not have to 328 00:16:08,072 --> 00:16:09,962 do. I mean again it's the heel drop 329 00:16:09,962 --> 00:16:13,652 was way too low, but I mean I could I no I actually raced in 330 00:16:13,652 --> 00:16:14,879 that shoe. It did fine. 331 00:16:15,519 --> 00:16:22,719 I did a, I did, George Fox had a Uganda 5K to raise money for 332 00:16:22,719 --> 00:16:26,400 their mission trip to go over there for their PT students and 333 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,519 I raced in that shoe on a hilly course with the shoulder and 334 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:32,055 actually did pretty well. I my Achilles got flared up 335 00:16:32,055 --> 00:16:35,214 afterwards, obviously, but that that was was like December last 336 00:16:35,214 --> 00:16:37,760 year and it actually did pretty I could appreciate it. 337 00:16:37,759 --> 00:16:41,068 It didn't have I don't think I could push it as much as I 338 00:16:41,068 --> 00:16:43,614 wanted, but anybody else, like, especially with your mechanics, 339 00:16:43,614 --> 00:16:46,294 I can totally see. It's fast. 340 00:16:46,294 --> 00:16:50,754 Another company that's like, wow, like and Mizuno hasn't been 341 00:16:50,754 --> 00:16:52,560 sleeping. Like they've been doing some 342 00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:55,552 insane stuff the last like the Rebellion Pro is was wild. 343 00:16:55,552 --> 00:16:59,040 Every version was wild. Before that, though, they were 344 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,496 they didn't really have a significant racing shoe for 345 00:17:02,496 --> 00:17:04,251 years. And then all of a sudden, like 346 00:17:04,251 --> 00:17:06,398 oh, we're just gonna pop out some of the wildest stuff. 347 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,628 Like we're gonna throw three models out of nowhere, and then 348 00:17:09,628 --> 00:17:13,020 now we're gonna make the lightest racing shoe ever at 96, 349 00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:15,365 what's the shoe, what is it called? 350 00:17:15,365 --> 00:17:18,038 96 grams. Is it just the Mizuno Hyperwarp? 351 00:17:18,038 --> 00:17:21,599 Yeah, I forget what it's called, but yeah, it's 96 grams. 352 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,520 It's got a one-piece upper, right? 353 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,643 Not tested it. And I hope that we get it 354 00:17:26,643 --> 00:17:28,799 because yeah, that looks insane. Looks insane. 355 00:17:28,799 --> 00:17:32,517 I'm willing to sacrifice my Achilles tendon to try that shoe 356 00:17:32,517 --> 00:17:34,542 for sure. So your sacrifice is 357 00:17:34,542 --> 00:17:37,632 appreciated. I'll see if I can stick a heel 358 00:17:37,632 --> 00:17:41,714 lift in there, probably can't, but you turn it into a 200 gram 359 00:17:41,714 --> 00:17:44,101 shoe with your heel lift. Hey, whatever. 360 00:17:44,101 --> 00:17:46,138 Same as every other one. It's fine. 361 00:17:46,138 --> 00:17:48,160 All right. So as mentioned, our 362 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,319 in-for-testing is sponsored by Skratch Labs. 363 00:17:50,319 --> 00:17:53,389 You can use the code DOCTORSOFRUNNING to get 20% off 364 00:17:53,389 --> 00:17:56,490 your first order, which no longer works for me because my 365 00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:59,088 first order was a very, very long time ago, but really enjoy 366 00:17:59,088 --> 00:18:01,171 their hydration. Used a bunch of it this morning, 367 00:18:01,171 --> 00:18:03,289 use it very frequently for especially treadmill runs, which 368 00:18:03,289 --> 00:18:06,640 I'm starting to do more as things are getting colder and 369 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,880 more dreary. So really, really good stuff. 370 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,394 The secret flavor was vanilla cherry. 371 00:18:11,394 --> 00:18:16,299 I thought it was, it was okay. It wasn't quite as good as 372 00:18:16,299 --> 00:18:19,262 watermelon, but I've also noticed my favorite flavor right 373 00:18:19,262 --> 00:18:22,376 now is the orange hydration. Yeah. 374 00:18:22,376 --> 00:18:27,280 The blood orange or just the regular orange? 375 00:18:27,519 --> 00:18:31,682 The blood orange I appreciate, but the normal orange is is 376 00:18:31,682 --> 00:18:33,950 great. I can't get behind mango. 377 00:18:33,950 --> 00:18:37,930 I've had it, it's okay. Nathan loves the mango flavor. 378 00:18:37,930 --> 00:18:40,634 I feel like that's all he talks about. 379 00:18:40,634 --> 00:18:42,319 But orange very refreshing. Great. 380 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,840 Skratch does great. Bring back watermelon, please. 381 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:49,523 Anyway, we are gonna get into our main segments, and this is 382 00:18:49,523 --> 00:18:52,770 doing buy or sell for recovery. And as mentioned at the very 383 00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:54,880 beginning, we get a lot of questions about this. 384 00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,205 Not just for the podcast, not just for Doctors of Running. 385 00:18:58,205 --> 00:19:00,319 Andrea, you probably get the same thing. 386 00:19:00,319 --> 00:19:03,465 I get a lot of questions from students, from patients going, 387 00:19:03,465 --> 00:19:06,319 Hey, what's the best way to like recover from running? 388 00:19:06,319 --> 00:19:08,079 We are getting into marathon season. 389 00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:10,420 As we're recording this, the Portland Marathon and Half 390 00:19:10,420 --> 00:19:13,125 Marathon just happened today, which I'm very thankful I didn't 391 00:19:13,125 --> 00:19:16,075 do because I got to sleep in, which is nice. 392 00:19:16,075 --> 00:19:17,840 Sorry, I should be... It's great. 393 00:19:17,839 --> 00:19:20,320 But lots of people, hey, how do I recover faster? 394 00:19:20,319 --> 00:19:23,352 And I'm gonna, maybe we shouldn't hit the punchline 395 00:19:23,352 --> 00:19:27,072 first, but we at Doctors of Running are pretty adamant that 396 00:19:27,072 --> 00:19:30,582 the most important things you can do is A, train 397 00:19:30,582 --> 00:19:33,676 intelligently, B, get enough sleep, because that's where you 398 00:19:33,676 --> 00:19:37,606 really recover, and then C, make sure you have really good, 399 00:19:37,606 --> 00:19:40,629 appropriate nutrition. Those are the top three things. 400 00:19:40,629 --> 00:19:43,324 And so everything else is after that. 401 00:19:43,324 --> 00:19:46,016 Do you agree or disagree on that? 402 00:19:46,016 --> 00:19:49,368 Absolutely. I would say what you just listed 403 00:19:49,368 --> 00:19:53,608 is ninety-seven percent of recovery from the I might say 404 00:19:53,608 --> 00:19:56,464 ninety-eight, but yeah. I might say ninety-nine. 405 00:19:56,464 --> 00:19:58,675 Yeah. I was trying to be generous. 406 00:19:58,675 --> 00:20:00,880 But it's the vast majority of it. 407 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,307 And then there's all these tools. 408 00:20:03,307 --> 00:20:06,943 And you know, we do get questions sometime, obviously 409 00:20:06,943 --> 00:20:09,929 about training and nutrition. Not as many questions about 410 00:20:09,929 --> 00:20:13,214 sleep, because it's hard to help people with sleep if you know 411 00:20:13,214 --> 00:20:16,766 you've got a little baby keeping you up or a little dog or 412 00:20:16,766 --> 00:20:19,356 whatever. But all of these things you can 413 00:20:19,356 --> 00:20:23,659 buy, which sound like, oh, if I buy this and use this, it's 414 00:20:23,659 --> 00:20:27,400 gonna make me recover faster. Well, that's very good 415 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,480 advertising, but it is not always true. 416 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:35,095 So when you talk about recovery from training, you also have to 417 00:20:35,095 --> 00:20:40,720 ask yourself what your goal is. So a lot of these tools, whether 418 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:46,000 it's cold plunge, massage tools like a Theragun or a scraper, 419 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,669 compression boots like the Normatec boots, compression 420 00:20:50,669 --> 00:20:54,159 stockings or compression leggings, whatever. 421 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:57,720 Whether you're like in the middle of just normal training, 422 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:00,800 or if for some reason you're competing back-to-back days, 423 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,920 like let's say you're a track and field athlete and you have a 424 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,028 multi-day meet, maybe you've got you know prelims in the 1500 and 425 00:21:08,028 --> 00:21:12,472 then finals the following day, your recovery goals are going to 426 00:21:12,472 --> 00:21:14,814 be different. For cyclists, you know, you 427 00:21:14,814 --> 00:21:18,799 watch the Tour de France and you see what these guys are doing. 428 00:21:18,799 --> 00:21:22,448 A lot of them are doing cold plunges between stages, but the 429 00:21:22,448 --> 00:21:26,400 goal of that is to help them feel best for the next day. 430 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,655 Whereas when you're in the middle of, say, a marathon 431 00:21:30,655 --> 00:21:36,112 training block, your goal is to stack training so you get fitter 432 00:21:36,112 --> 00:21:39,654 and faster. So what you do for recovery 433 00:21:39,654 --> 00:21:43,744 should be different because I'm gonna say probably the most 434 00:21:43,744 --> 00:21:48,384 important thing that we can talk about when it comes to recovery 435 00:21:48,384 --> 00:21:51,440 is that inflammation from training is actually good. 436 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,245 That is what makes you stronger. So when you do like a really 437 00:21:56,245 --> 00:21:59,953 hard running workout and your muscles are sore the next day or 438 00:21:59,953 --> 00:22:04,144 two days later, that is because you cause some muscle breakdown 439 00:22:04,144 --> 00:22:07,028 and inflammation. And it's that inflammatory 440 00:22:07,028 --> 00:22:11,680 process that stimulates your body to build back stronger. 441 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,408 If we blunt that inflammatory response by doing a cold plunge 442 00:22:16,408 --> 00:22:20,850 after every run, you're not going to get the benefits from 443 00:22:20,850 --> 00:22:24,894 the training you did the way you would if you let that 444 00:22:24,894 --> 00:22:28,295 inflammatory process take place. So for most runners, unless you 445 00:22:28,295 --> 00:22:32,399 are a track and field athlete, we're not racing back to back. 446 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,120 We don't have races that are like the Tour de France. 447 00:22:35,120 --> 00:22:38,288 I mean, so there are some ultras where you have back-to-back 448 00:22:38,288 --> 00:22:41,840 races, but for the most part, you race a 5K, you're probably 449 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,720 not gonna race again for at least another week. 450 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,379 You race a marathon, you're probably not gonna race again 451 00:22:48,379 --> 00:22:52,899 for a while, hopefully. So the training leading up to 452 00:22:52,899 --> 00:22:57,484 those races, you actually want to allow the inflammatory 453 00:22:57,484 --> 00:23:02,909 process to take place. And that also includes not using 454 00:23:02,909 --> 00:23:08,556 NSAIDs like Aleve or Advil to blunt that inflammatory response 455 00:23:08,556 --> 00:23:12,250 because it is going to affect how your body responds to 456 00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:14,754 training. I will say there are there might 457 00:23:14,754 --> 00:23:17,328 be two exceptions to this. Some of that. 458 00:23:17,328 --> 00:23:19,512 Absolutely, yes. The exception is some of those, 459 00:23:19,512 --> 00:23:22,032 what are they called, relay races, may be something, given 460 00:23:22,032 --> 00:23:24,936 those are getting popular, like Hood to Coast just happened not 461 00:23:24,936 --> 00:23:28,695 too long ago here in Oregon. So for those people that are, 462 00:23:28,695 --> 00:23:32,484 you know, running, you know, six, seven times in the span of 463 00:23:32,484 --> 00:23:34,914 24 to 48 hours, that actually may be appropriate because 464 00:23:34,914 --> 00:23:36,319 that's, that's where it is. Absolutely. 465 00:23:36,559 --> 00:23:38,891 Just know you're not going to get faster from that because 466 00:23:38,891 --> 00:23:40,160 you're doing so much tissue damage. 467 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,002 Your job is to just get to like basically distract yourself 468 00:23:43,002 --> 00:23:46,816 enough to be able to get to the next leg and feel a little bit 469 00:23:46,816 --> 00:23:48,524 better. But are you stacking that is 470 00:23:48,524 --> 00:23:50,720 that training stacking together and making it no, right? 471 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,762 You're breaking yourself down. You're just trying to get 472 00:23:52,762 --> 00:23:55,000 through that performance. And that's why you need to 473 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,820 realize that lots of performances aren't necessarily 474 00:23:56,820 --> 00:23:59,334 making you better. They are breaking you down so 475 00:23:59,334 --> 00:24:02,224 much because it's so intense that that's that's where you 476 00:24:02,224 --> 00:24:05,032 perform, right? You don't perform like that on 477 00:24:05,032 --> 00:24:09,124 training because training is less so you can stack it and 478 00:24:09,124 --> 00:24:11,480 improve your capacity. The other except the mild 479 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,704 exception to that, and this is kind of outside of our scope as 480 00:24:14,704 --> 00:24:17,210 PTs, because we don't normally prescribe medication unless 481 00:24:17,210 --> 00:24:21,040 you're military, unless there's a new law on one of the states 482 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,280 that I'm not aware of. At least in the United States, 483 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,700 is that if you have some kind of injury and if the inflammatory 484 00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:31,032 process is so bad you cannot sleep. 485 00:24:31,032 --> 00:24:35,016 A you need to interrupt your training or race or whatever it 486 00:24:35,016 --> 00:24:37,104 is, right? B some anti-inflammatories may 487 00:24:37,104 --> 00:24:41,369 be helpful because if you can't sleep, that's one of the most 488 00:24:41,369 --> 00:24:42,820 potent anti-inflammatories out there. 489 00:24:42,820 --> 00:24:46,450 So that may be where medication, a physician prescription may be 490 00:24:46,450 --> 00:24:49,729 helpful for that. But outside of that, if you can 491 00:24:49,729 --> 00:24:51,359 avoid taking those things, right? 492 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,836 Like muscle aches, that's your body way of saying, hey dude, 493 00:24:54,836 --> 00:24:57,364 slow down so we can adapt to this. 494 00:24:57,364 --> 00:25:00,128 Right. So you do need to listen and try 495 00:25:00,128 --> 00:25:03,485 sometimes trying to blunt that response, but I'm just trying to 496 00:25:03,485 --> 00:25:06,269 tell you something. And I would say I see a lot of 497 00:25:06,269 --> 00:25:08,546 athletes, and my, my caution with many of the things that 498 00:25:08,546 --> 00:25:12,368 we're going to talk about is I see a lot of athletes trying to 499 00:25:12,368 --> 00:25:15,200 blunt that response and then they're not listening and then 500 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,297 they get hurt because not because they have some weird 501 00:25:19,297 --> 00:25:22,812 biomechanical thing, not because they didn't get enough nutrition 502 00:25:22,812 --> 00:25:25,414 or didn't sleep enough, it's because they're just 503 00:25:25,414 --> 00:25:28,074 overextending and they're not letting their body recover 504 00:25:28,074 --> 00:25:29,799 enough. You can't rush that. 505 00:25:29,799 --> 00:25:31,519 That's how it goes. Right. 506 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,352 So I think you know, you're not neither of us are twenty five 507 00:25:35,352 --> 00:25:36,480 years old anymore. No. 508 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,602 But I think it's such a tendency to think that you can train the 509 00:25:39,602 --> 00:25:43,480 same way you did when you were in high school or college or 510 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,925 post-collegiate, and you can't. You might need three days 511 00:25:46,925 --> 00:25:50,360 between hard workouts, whereas in the you know, when you were 512 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:54,321 younger you only needed two. And you can try to fight that 513 00:25:54,321 --> 00:25:58,093 for a while, but that usually just leads to frustration or 514 00:25:58,093 --> 00:26:01,270 injury or burnout or all of those things. 515 00:26:01,270 --> 00:26:06,228 So you know, pain is part of training, not injury pain, but 516 00:26:06,228 --> 00:26:09,119 your muscles are going to be sore. 517 00:26:09,120 --> 00:26:11,295 You're going to be a little bit tired. 518 00:26:11,295 --> 00:26:14,818 Like that's that's what you're signed up for if your goal is to 519 00:26:14,818 --> 00:26:17,538 get better. There is going to be some muscle 520 00:26:17,538 --> 00:26:20,128 soreness involved. Now, does that mean that you 521 00:26:20,128 --> 00:26:24,386 should be so sore every day that you can't walk down your stairs? 522 00:26:24,386 --> 00:26:26,526 Absolutely not. That's a sign that you're 523 00:26:26,526 --> 00:26:29,280 overdoing it. But if you do your long run in 524 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,520 part of marathon training, are you gonna be a little sore and 525 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:34,116 tired the next day? Absolutely. 526 00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:40,824 That's kind of the point. So the goal here is not to avoid 527 00:26:40,824 --> 00:26:43,920 any bad feelings associated with training. 528 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,144 It's to learn how to adequately manage your load and learn more 529 00:26:48,144 --> 00:26:52,094 about your body and how you respond to training and what 530 00:26:52,094 --> 00:26:55,496 works best for you to meet your running goals. 531 00:26:55,496 --> 00:26:57,759 And people's goals are different too. 532 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,010 So you're ready for the buy or sell? 533 00:27:00,010 --> 00:27:00,823 Yes. All right. 534 00:27:00,823 --> 00:27:04,701 So I'm going to start us off. So our first buy and sell is 535 00:27:04,701 --> 00:27:06,960 going to be we're gonna get controversial here. 536 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,448 We're gonna get in trouble for this, but that's okay. 537 00:27:08,448 --> 00:27:11,335 That's what we do. So our first buy or sell for 538 00:27:11,335 --> 00:27:14,605 recovery is muscle scrapers. So you see these advertised all 539 00:27:14,605 --> 00:27:18,760 over social media right now. Andrea, are you a buy or a sell 540 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:20,685 on these? I am a major sell. 541 00:27:20,685 --> 00:27:23,867 Okay. So the whole mechanism of action 542 00:27:23,867 --> 00:27:28,177 of these scrapers, and when we say scrapers, we're basically 543 00:27:28,177 --> 00:27:31,405 just talking about what's usually a metal instrument, some 544 00:27:31,405 --> 00:27:35,920 of them are plastic, but most of them are metal, used to assist 545 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,920 in soft tissue massage. And why do you use them? 546 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,803 Because it's easier to apply greater force to the tissue with 547 00:27:43,803 --> 00:27:45,920 this instrument than using your hands. 548 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,610 You can apply greater force. It's less fatiguing for either 549 00:27:49,610 --> 00:27:53,148 yourself if you're treating yourself or if you're seeing a 550 00:27:53,148 --> 00:27:56,790 PT or another practitioner. Doesn't take as much work from 551 00:27:56,790 --> 00:27:59,200 their hands if you're using an instrument. 552 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:05,140 But anyway, the point of using that instrument is to stimulate 553 00:28:05,140 --> 00:28:08,760 inflammation. So it can be helpful for certain 554 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,508 types of injuries. And you know, we could have a 555 00:28:12,508 --> 00:28:15,628 whole podcast on what the evidence says about Achilles 556 00:28:15,628 --> 00:28:17,430 tendinopathy versus patellar tendinopathy. 557 00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:24,090 But the point is scraping has some evidence for some types of 558 00:28:24,090 --> 00:28:27,664 tendon disorders. There's less evidence for muscle 559 00:28:27,664 --> 00:28:31,600 disorders and even less evidence for ligamentous disorders. 560 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,692 But the whole point is the evidence that exists is for 561 00:28:35,692 --> 00:28:40,151 people who are injured, not for a healthy runner who just has a 562 00:28:40,151 --> 00:28:42,923 little bit of soreness because they did a track workout 563 00:28:42,923 --> 00:28:46,595 yesterday. So do not use your scraper after 564 00:28:46,595 --> 00:28:50,952 every hard workout, because you're sore, because it will 565 00:28:50,952 --> 00:28:54,559 create more inflammation and make you more sore. 566 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,944 I will say that you also need to be very careful about where you 567 00:28:57,944 --> 00:28:59,119 put this for certain tendinopathies. 568 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,000 So the clinical practice guidelines for physical therapy 569 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,532 for Achilles tendinopathy and patellar tendinopathy actually 570 00:29:04,532 --> 00:29:08,252 suggests that you do not use manual therapy on the 571 00:29:08,252 --> 00:29:11,174 tendinopathies because it actually tends to make things 572 00:29:11,174 --> 00:29:13,265 worse. There's our and again, it's not 573 00:29:13,265 --> 00:29:16,459 necessarily that you need to help the tendon re- the the 574 00:29:16,459 --> 00:29:19,420 tendons don't remodel the same way with scraping. 575 00:29:19,420 --> 00:29:23,520 They tend to remodel best in response to load, right? 576 00:29:23,519 --> 00:29:26,720 That's that type of load is doesn't tend to help them. 577 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:31,324 They respond better to tensile type loads, which is how they 578 00:29:31,324 --> 00:29:34,044 really function. So there is example of areas 579 00:29:34,044 --> 00:29:36,240 where it's like, actually don't use this. 580 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,325 For hamstring, for lateral elbow tendinopathy, there's actually 581 00:29:39,325 --> 00:29:41,555 some okay stuff. That's like, okay, yeah, if 582 00:29:41,555 --> 00:29:43,704 you're injured and this is really bothering you, this has 583 00:29:43,704 --> 00:29:46,611 been going on too long, you might be able to use this to 584 00:29:46,611 --> 00:29:49,119 kind of kickstart a inflammatory process because a lot of times 585 00:29:49,279 --> 00:29:52,736 the tendinopathies people think, oh, I should take they're 586 00:29:52,736 --> 00:29:54,650 inflammatory. A lot of them, the inflammation 587 00:29:54,650 --> 00:29:57,200 is actually pretty minor and it's not a major factor. 588 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,940 So restarting that because it's chronic for some people may be 589 00:30:00,940 --> 00:30:02,833 helpful. In regards to muscle, I would 590 00:30:02,833 --> 00:30:04,639 say this is no different than massage. 591 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:06,864 If you're someone that does super well, if you're just a 592 00:30:06,864 --> 00:30:09,062 little sore and you're like, oh, something feels a little bit 593 00:30:09,062 --> 00:30:11,581 tight, and I know that like it feels a little bit better after 594 00:30:11,581 --> 00:30:13,705 a massage, cool. But that's not helping you 595 00:30:13,705 --> 00:30:16,172 recover any better. That's just changing the tone, 596 00:30:16,172 --> 00:30:18,400 right? The guarding, the the with tone 597 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,920 is the resistance to stretch in muscle, not tendon, not other 598 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,640 stuff, in the muscle. So pushing on it, if you're 599 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,280 someone that has sensitive hands and maybe not the best hand 600 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,112 strength, or maybe you're hypermobile, a scraper might be 601 00:30:30,112 --> 00:30:32,800 totally fine if that helps reduce some soreness. 602 00:30:32,799 --> 00:30:36,800 It's not helping you adapt to training any quicker. 603 00:30:36,799 --> 00:30:40,336 It is you are pushing on things, you are causing more of an 604 00:30:40,336 --> 00:30:42,481 inflammatory process. That's not going to make you 605 00:30:42,481 --> 00:30:45,094 recover any faster. So I'm a sell on this for 606 00:30:45,094 --> 00:30:48,202 recovery, but there are lots of people who, hey, I feel better 607 00:30:48,202 --> 00:30:48,720 afterwards. Cool. 608 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,923 It's not helping you recover faster. 609 00:30:50,923 --> 00:30:54,960 It is helping you feel better, which are two separate things. 610 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:00,624 Not saying it's wrong to use it, just saying you know what's 611 00:31:00,624 --> 00:31:03,456 actually happening. Ready to move on? 612 00:31:03,456 --> 00:31:06,832 Next topic. All right, compression clothes, 613 00:31:06,832 --> 00:31:11,088 buy or sell? This is so sad. 614 00:31:11,088 --> 00:31:16,559 So, so again, well, I'll put it this way. 615 00:31:16,559 --> 00:31:18,861 Compression clothes can help reduce swelling. 616 00:31:18,861 --> 00:31:23,840 Let's say you ran a marathon and you're flying back the next day. 617 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,766 Wearing like medical grade compression stockings is 618 00:31:26,766 --> 00:31:31,770 actually a good idea to reduce the risk of blood clots and 619 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:35,030 reduce just some people are more likely to swell when they sit on 620 00:31:35,030 --> 00:31:39,559 a plane for a long time or sit in a car for a long time. 621 00:31:39,559 --> 00:31:41,839 So those stockings can certainly help. 622 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,407 They can, because they reduce swelling, they can help reduce 623 00:31:46,407 --> 00:31:51,904 delayed onset muscle soreness as a result of the edema that 624 00:31:51,904 --> 00:31:54,880 happens with delayed onset muscle soreness. 625 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,344 But again, do they help you recover between sessions? 626 00:31:59,344 --> 00:32:02,200 No. They're better after a race 627 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:07,857 where your goal really isn't, okay, I need to recover for this 628 00:32:07,857 --> 00:32:12,155 next session, but I need to feel better because I'm going to be 629 00:32:12,155 --> 00:32:15,792 very sore the next day. So I'm also a sell that I think 630 00:32:15,792 --> 00:32:18,474 we, and this has probably been advertised the wrong way, and 631 00:32:18,474 --> 00:32:21,150 we're looking at the wrong system with this. 632 00:32:21,150 --> 00:32:24,791 So compression garments have been used for years for things 633 00:32:24,791 --> 00:32:26,784 called lymphedema. That's a problem with your 634 00:32:26,784 --> 00:32:28,800 lymphatic system, which most people don't know about. 635 00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:31,484 You have your arteries, your arteries carry blood flow away 636 00:32:31,484 --> 00:32:33,360 from the heart, veins bring it back. 637 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,032 There's a whole nother system called your lymphatic system 638 00:32:36,032 --> 00:32:38,740 that helps move fluid and actually some other materials 639 00:32:38,740 --> 00:32:41,460 throughout your body. That system, if it's not 640 00:32:41,460 --> 00:32:43,839 functioning well, you can get additional swelling. 641 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:45,440 And so that's what lymphedema is. 642 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:47,483 If you've ever seen somebody post-breast cancer where they 643 00:32:47,483 --> 00:32:50,068 remove some of the lymph nodes, which are also part of your 644 00:32:50,068 --> 00:32:52,079 immune system, where you can get excessive swelling in the arm. 645 00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,600 You may have seen someone with legs that seem very, very 646 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:57,519 swollen abnormally. That can be lymphedema. 647 00:32:57,519 --> 00:32:59,600 There's a couple other things that may cause that. 648 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,471 But compression garments have been shown to be very effective 649 00:33:02,471 --> 00:33:05,488 at helping reducing the volume of fluid in the area because 650 00:33:05,488 --> 00:33:08,008 normally the veins and the muscles, the smooth muscles help 651 00:33:08,008 --> 00:33:11,689 pump that stuff out of there. If those aren't working, yeah. 652 00:33:11,689 --> 00:33:14,720 So compression garments, great for reducing swelling. 653 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:19,039 Very good evidence on planes for reducing the risk of DVT. 654 00:33:19,039 --> 00:33:21,810 So I have compression stockings all the time just because I tend 655 00:33:21,810 --> 00:33:24,700 to swell for some reason. That's just a problem with my 656 00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:27,324 lymphatic system. But in terms of facilitating 657 00:33:27,324 --> 00:33:31,823 recovery of muscle, no, it really hasn't been shown to be 658 00:33:31,823 --> 00:33:33,738 that effective. There's been a study here and 659 00:33:33,738 --> 00:33:36,116 there that were very poorly done that were had a lot of bias 660 00:33:36,116 --> 00:33:37,279 because it was sponsored by the company. 661 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,051 It's like, oh, but then when they do larger scale studies 662 00:33:40,051 --> 00:33:42,408 that are very well done, randomized controlled trials, it 663 00:33:42,408 --> 00:33:44,600 just doesn't come out. So another thing that, hey, 664 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,759 there's a lot of people go, I feel a lot better with this. 665 00:33:47,759 --> 00:33:49,964 And yeah, having some compression may make you feel 666 00:33:49,964 --> 00:33:52,160 better, but that's not your muscles, that's your nervous 667 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,560 system going, ah, I like this like squeeze. 668 00:33:54,559 --> 00:33:58,135 Or going, hey, if you're someone that has a little extra swelling 669 00:33:58,135 --> 00:34:01,080 that occurs, they're great tools to reduce that because it can 670 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,395 keep mobility going. There are a lot of people who 671 00:34:03,395 --> 00:34:05,274 use them in races. If you're someone that swells, 672 00:34:05,274 --> 00:34:06,799 it helps them feel a little bit better. 673 00:34:06,799 --> 00:34:11,225 It provides a little extra pressure to keep things moving, 674 00:34:11,225 --> 00:34:14,319 but facilitating recovery and faster recovery, sell. 675 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,679 That's not how it works. Right. 676 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:18,688 I would you touched a little bit on this, but compression 677 00:34:18,688 --> 00:34:22,103 garments and it could be like a full, you know, a compression 678 00:34:22,103 --> 00:34:26,224 stocking or even just like a compression sleeve for your 679 00:34:26,224 --> 00:34:28,696 knee. Compression has been shown to 680 00:34:28,696 --> 00:34:31,449 reduce pain. That's why those basic knee 681 00:34:31,449 --> 00:34:35,309 sleeves can make people with knee arthritis feel better, not 682 00:34:35,309 --> 00:34:38,592 because it's making your arthritis any better, but 683 00:34:38,592 --> 00:34:43,199 because the sensory input of the compression helps block some of 684 00:34:43,199 --> 00:34:45,599 the pain signal coming from your knee. 685 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:50,696 So again, if you did a your long run and your legs are sore, 686 00:34:50,696 --> 00:34:54,299 putting on like compression tights might make you feel 687 00:34:54,299 --> 00:34:57,608 better, but not helping you recover faster. 688 00:34:57,608 --> 00:34:59,764 Right. Although it actually might help 689 00:34:59,764 --> 00:35:03,471 facilitate you doing something that might help a little bit of 690 00:35:03,471 --> 00:35:04,480 recovery. That's it. 691 00:35:04,559 --> 00:35:06,400 Which is actually goes into our next thing. 692 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,627 So if it reduces pain a little bit and allows you to do this 693 00:35:10,627 --> 00:35:14,239 next thing, that may be okay. So buy or sell recovery runs. 694 00:35:15,679 --> 00:35:18,350 Buy. Although I will refer back to 695 00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:22,160 the episode David and I recorded a couple weeks ago. 696 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:26,719 One of the topics was recovery runs or recovery walks. 697 00:35:26,720 --> 00:35:31,938 So depending on your fitness level, a recovery run might not 698 00:35:31,938 --> 00:35:36,139 actually be recovery. So like if your normal easy run 699 00:35:36,139 --> 00:35:40,891 pace is like 10 to 11 minute miles to actually run slow 700 00:35:40,891 --> 00:35:44,429 enough where your heart rate is low enough, where it's a 701 00:35:44,429 --> 00:35:46,480 recovery, you'd actually be better off walking. 702 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:50,880 And what's the purpose of a recovery run or active recovery? 703 00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:55,056 It's to get your moving, to get blood flow to your muscles, 704 00:35:55,056 --> 00:35:58,284 loosen up your joints, but to not stimulate your 705 00:35:58,284 --> 00:36:01,833 cardiovascular system so much that it's increasing your 706 00:36:01,833 --> 00:36:05,191 training load. So if your normal easy run pace 707 00:36:05,191 --> 00:36:09,424 is an eight-minute mile, then you could go do a recovery run 708 00:36:09,424 --> 00:36:14,374 at 9:30 to 10 minute pace, and that really is going to be a 709 00:36:14,374 --> 00:36:17,199 recovery for you. But it is pace dependent. 710 00:36:17,199 --> 00:36:22,480 A recovery walk can be just as good for slower runners, but 711 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,152 absolutely active recovery is a good way to recover from a hard 712 00:36:27,152 --> 00:36:29,064 session. And there are a lot of elite 713 00:36:29,064 --> 00:36:31,384 runners that have found that even recover like too much 714 00:36:31,384 --> 00:36:33,259 mileage for them just they can't handle it. 715 00:36:33,259 --> 00:36:35,239 There's certain people can handle certain things and other 716 00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,040 people can't. And so there's a lot of go, hey, 717 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,400 instead of recovery run, cross-training might be better. 718 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,399 Getting on the bike, getting in the pool. 719 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,515 We know that appropriate, like, low volume, low-level activity 720 00:36:46,515 --> 00:36:50,514 does get good blood flow. It does actually tend to help 721 00:36:50,514 --> 00:36:52,816 recovery. It just, again, I am also a buy 722 00:36:52,816 --> 00:36:56,079 on this, but I'm a buy, asterisk sign, with how you do them. 723 00:36:56,079 --> 00:37:00,477 If you're running your recovery run hard or you go do a long 724 00:37:00,477 --> 00:37:03,519 recovery run, that's not that's not a recovery run. 725 00:37:03,519 --> 00:37:07,643 That's a long run, right? So that and that has its own 726 00:37:07,643 --> 00:37:10,247 stimulus that you're then blunting the appropriate 727 00:37:10,247 --> 00:37:13,340 recovery response from. You can't, there's only so much 728 00:37:13,340 --> 00:37:16,960 you can stack before you exceed your body's ability to recover. 729 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,519 So if you're doing them the right way, great. 730 00:37:19,519 --> 00:37:23,211 And I've told this story before, but before I left for college or 731 00:37:23,211 --> 00:37:26,688 before I left for PT school when I finished college, there was a 732 00:37:26,688 --> 00:37:29,235 bunch of really awesome Kenyans and Ethiopians that let me join 733 00:37:29,235 --> 00:37:32,079 them in downtown Portland for easy runs and workouts where 734 00:37:32,079 --> 00:37:34,263 they crushed me. But coming off college, they 735 00:37:34,263 --> 00:37:37,435 always made fun of me because A, they were just like, dude, slow 736 00:37:37,435 --> 00:37:39,736 down. We'd be running 10, 12 minutes, 737 00:37:39,736 --> 00:37:41,788 these are like 2:05, 2:06 marathoners. 738 00:37:41,788 --> 00:37:43,840 They'd be running 10 minute miles. 739 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,139 And I'm like, dude, I don't run slower than like 7:30. 740 00:37:46,139 --> 00:37:47,599 I don't know what's wrong with you. 741 00:37:47,599 --> 00:37:49,680 And they said, You need to chill out. 742 00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:52,759 And then they would they by the end of the run, they would be 743 00:37:52,759 --> 00:37:55,804 every run was a progression run. Start out 10, 11-minute pace, 744 00:37:55,804 --> 00:37:59,599 progress in, and we'd be going 7:30, 6:30 by the end. 745 00:37:59,599 --> 00:38:01,944 But they were very cautious with that. 746 00:38:01,944 --> 00:38:06,292 But then every the runs were so slow and then the workouts were 747 00:38:06,292 --> 00:38:08,760 so fast. And I was like, oh, it took me a 748 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:10,360 couple weeks, and I finally figured it out. 749 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:14,127 And I'm like, ah right. So how you do it is really key. 750 00:38:14,127 --> 00:38:17,790 And probably a lot of people run the recovery runs too fast. 751 00:38:17,790 --> 00:38:18,400 Absolutely. Yeah. 752 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,960 And I would also be a buy for recovery cross training. 753 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:26,971 I use cycling as a big part of my recovery from my hard 754 00:38:26,971 --> 00:38:29,735 workouts. And if you are comfortable on a 755 00:38:29,735 --> 00:38:33,527 bike or if you enjoy riding a stationary bike, cycling is just 756 00:38:33,527 --> 00:38:36,888 such nice recovery from running because it's low impact. 757 00:38:36,888 --> 00:38:40,000 If you're sore, you don't get that pounding. 758 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:45,272 I find a 30 minute easy ride fixes a lot of soreness for me 759 00:38:45,272 --> 00:38:48,460 from harder runs. So we finally had a buy, even 760 00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:50,800 though we had an asterisk sign. So it's fine. 761 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:58,480 So buy or sell, foam rolling or roll recovery type devices? 762 00:38:58,559 --> 00:39:03,299 I'm a sell because what we're really talking about here is 763 00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:07,599 does this tool help you recover and it does not. 764 00:39:07,599 --> 00:39:12,474 Now do I foam roll after some hard workouts to feel better? 765 00:39:12,474 --> 00:39:15,664 Absolutely. If I'm sore and I go foam roll 766 00:39:15,664 --> 00:39:18,100 for five minutes, I feel better afterwards. 767 00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:20,880 But did that speed along my recovery process? 768 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,984 No, it just made me feel better. So there are you're kind 769 00:39:24,984 --> 00:39:28,400 hopefully our listeners are starting to see a pattern here. 770 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:32,286 There's a lot of things that can make you feel better 771 00:39:32,286 --> 00:39:34,454 temporarily. And there's nothing wrong with 772 00:39:34,454 --> 00:39:38,079 that, but they don't actually speed up the recovery process. 773 00:39:38,079 --> 00:39:41,943 There are some things that can't be rushed, and recovery from 774 00:39:41,943 --> 00:39:44,400 hard training is actually one of them. 775 00:39:44,639 --> 00:39:47,123 I definitely agree that I'm also a sell, and for the same 776 00:39:47,123 --> 00:39:49,599 reasons, going, yeah, there's a lot of people that do very well. 777 00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:51,201 It's like the muscle scrapers, right? 778 00:39:51,201 --> 00:39:54,400 They do very well and they feel a lot better after massage. 779 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,018 Some people feel awful, right? They don't like being touched, 780 00:39:57,018 --> 00:39:58,691 right? Other people they really like 781 00:39:58,691 --> 00:40:01,793 that that in that sensory input of the pressure, things like 782 00:40:01,793 --> 00:40:06,806 that, and it tends to help things relax and but it's not 783 00:40:06,806 --> 00:40:10,790 making you recover any better. And where I would really do 784 00:40:10,790 --> 00:40:13,848 caution is if you're using foam rolling or muscle scrapers so 785 00:40:13,848 --> 00:40:18,107 you can go run hard again when you should be recovering, then 786 00:40:18,107 --> 00:40:21,359 that's a double sell. You can use it to feel better, 787 00:40:21,359 --> 00:40:24,239 but you still need to respect your body and you can't rush 788 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,766 that time. It takes a certain amount of 789 00:40:26,766 --> 00:40:29,153 time for injuries, for tissues to heal. 790 00:40:29,153 --> 00:40:32,559 You can't rush that. That's just the way it goes. 791 00:40:32,559 --> 00:40:36,399 There are some things you can do to facilitate it that we're 792 00:40:36,399 --> 00:40:39,599 going to talk about, but that again for recovery, no. 793 00:40:39,599 --> 00:40:41,324 For feeling better, yeah, absolutely. 794 00:40:41,324 --> 00:40:44,079 Those are great, but for not for recovery. 795 00:40:44,079 --> 00:40:49,395 On the same vein, buy or sell, Theragun and percussion 796 00:40:49,395 --> 00:40:50,988 massagers. Same thing. 797 00:40:50,988 --> 00:40:53,601 Sell. I use my Theragun every day 798 00:40:53,601 --> 00:40:56,942 before my runs. I just feel like it helps me 799 00:40:56,942 --> 00:41:00,231 loosen up slightly, especially my calves, which tend to be 800 00:41:00,231 --> 00:41:03,121 tight. But again, did it help me 801 00:41:03,121 --> 00:41:04,400 recover? Absolutely not. 802 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,060 But for me, that percussion just does something to my soft tissue 803 00:41:08,060 --> 00:41:10,799 and makes me feel better before I go running. 804 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:11,940 So I use it. Yeah. 805 00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:13,764 But it has nothing to do with recovering. 806 00:41:13,764 --> 00:41:15,360 Same thing. I am also a sell. 807 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,549 It will definitely make you feel better, but is it going to 808 00:41:18,549 --> 00:41:20,934 facilitate tissue recovery and allow you to do more? 809 00:41:20,934 --> 00:41:23,174 No. And so you got to be very 810 00:41:23,174 --> 00:41:25,148 careful. There are also some people that 811 00:41:25,148 --> 00:41:27,119 do not respond very well to vibration. 812 00:41:27,119 --> 00:41:30,632 And that's kind of there. Your sensory system has several 813 00:41:30,632 --> 00:41:33,440 different types of things that come into it. 814 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,941 So light touch, deep pressure, vibration, temperature, those 815 00:41:36,941 --> 00:41:41,018 are all different pathways and nerves that like some people 816 00:41:41,018 --> 00:41:43,835 respond very, very well to and other people don't. 817 00:41:43,835 --> 00:41:46,960 So don't take this as a one size fits all. 818 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,480 It's a hey, this typically will can make you feel better, but 819 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:55,060 again, smacking your muscles repeatedly is not actually going 820 00:41:55,060 --> 00:41:58,879 to heal the tissue damage of training any faster. 821 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,494 It will make your brain go, oh, this doesn't hurt as much, but 822 00:42:02,494 --> 00:42:04,159 that doesn't mean things have healed. 823 00:42:04,159 --> 00:42:07,211 So we're not trying to freak you out just going, yeah, you can't 824 00:42:07,211 --> 00:42:09,799 beat time. You definitely can't beat sleep, 825 00:42:09,799 --> 00:42:11,495 nutrition, and appropriate training. 826 00:42:11,495 --> 00:42:14,457 Great. So what actually does help with 827 00:42:14,457 --> 00:42:17,260 recovery? The big three things: sleep, 828 00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:21,065 proper nutrition, and a well-designed training plan that 829 00:42:21,065 --> 00:42:26,212 is flexible with your life. So, you know, you can lay out 830 00:42:26,212 --> 00:42:30,568 your training for your next race, whether it's a 5K, half 831 00:42:30,568 --> 00:42:33,656 marathon, marathon, life is going to get in the way. 832 00:42:33,656 --> 00:42:37,326 Stuff's going to happen. And the best athletes are the 833 00:42:37,326 --> 00:42:41,957 best at not rigidly sticking to a training plan just because 834 00:42:41,957 --> 00:42:44,639 that's what you wrote down three months ago. 835 00:42:44,639 --> 00:42:48,159 You've gotta roll with the punches and know like if you 836 00:42:48,159 --> 00:42:52,790 slept an hour last night, today is probably not the day to go do 837 00:42:52,790 --> 00:42:56,640 your 18 mile long run. Like push that off until you're 838 00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,440 a little in a better state of preparation. 839 00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:02,777 If you have that flexibility, this a lot of people have 840 00:43:02,777 --> 00:43:04,642 fortunate with jobs. Or just skip it. 841 00:43:04,642 --> 00:43:05,174 Yeah. Yeah. 842 00:43:05,174 --> 00:43:07,288 Yeah. Skip it and move on to the next 843 00:43:07,288 --> 00:43:09,493 one. Because especially when it comes 844 00:43:09,493 --> 00:43:13,039 to marathon training, there's very little room for error. 845 00:43:13,039 --> 00:43:19,994 Like if you overdo it one week, unless your next week adapts and 846 00:43:19,994 --> 00:43:23,852 decreases to reflect the increased unplanned load, then 847 00:43:23,852 --> 00:43:27,429 you're probably just gonna set yourself up for an injury or 848 00:43:27,429 --> 00:43:30,206 getting sick. Now I know we've been beating on 849 00:43:30,206 --> 00:43:32,011 this, but we actually mentioned this earlier. 850 00:43:32,011 --> 00:43:35,663 You talked about this. How about ice baths? 851 00:43:35,663 --> 00:43:39,148 Okay. So like in the example of the 852 00:43:39,148 --> 00:43:43,587 Tour de France or, what is the race in Oregon called? 853 00:43:43,587 --> 00:43:46,879 Oh, Hood to Coast. Hood to Coast, yeah. 854 00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:50,272 So where you're running multiple, you know, either 855 00:43:50,272 --> 00:43:54,370 you're racing every day for several days, or you're doing 856 00:43:54,370 --> 00:43:57,279 several run segment over the course of several days, or 857 00:43:57,279 --> 00:44:00,557 you're a track athlete and you've got prelims and finals 858 00:44:00,557 --> 00:44:04,499 and whatnot, an ice bath can absolutely help reduce 859 00:44:04,499 --> 00:44:08,879 inflammation so that you're ready to race the next day. 860 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:14,719 So, in that sense of recovery, yes, they are very effective. 861 00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:19,280 But if you're not trying to perform back to back days, if 862 00:44:19,280 --> 00:44:22,814 you just again using like a marathon training block example, 863 00:44:22,814 --> 00:44:26,272 if you do your long run and do an ice bath because you don't 864 00:44:26,272 --> 00:44:30,047 want to be sore the next day. It will help with your soreness, 865 00:44:30,047 --> 00:44:33,457 but it will also blunt the inflammatory response that was 866 00:44:33,457 --> 00:44:38,349 meant to help you get stronger. So in that sense, you should not 867 00:44:38,349 --> 00:44:41,815 use an ice bath in regular training because you are 868 00:44:41,815 --> 00:44:45,456 blunting the training effect. Yeah, I have to comment on this 869 00:44:45,456 --> 00:44:48,336 social media and just people in general have given inflammation 870 00:44:48,336 --> 00:44:50,750 a bad name. Like if somebody's like, oh, 871 00:44:50,750 --> 00:44:53,850 you're just inflamed, you they're probably a moron, to be 872 00:44:53,850 --> 00:44:55,345 honest. Like they're inflammation 873 00:44:55,345 --> 00:44:58,110 happens naturally. That's your body's response to 874 00:44:58,110 --> 00:45:00,480 tissue injuries or something going on. 875 00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,105 If you wanted no inflammation, you would die because A you 876 00:45:04,105 --> 00:45:06,079 would not have an immune response. 877 00:45:06,079 --> 00:45:09,148 B, your body would not adapt to the things that you the stresses 878 00:45:09,148 --> 00:45:11,389 you placed upon it from a physiological musculoskeletal 879 00:45:11,389 --> 00:45:13,963 standpoint. That's part of the process. 880 00:45:13,963 --> 00:45:17,687 Inflammation is not bad. When it starts to get in the way 881 00:45:17,687 --> 00:45:20,699 of things, like you're so fl like inflamed up you can't move 882 00:45:20,699 --> 00:45:22,496 at all. Your body's trying to tell you 883 00:45:22,496 --> 00:45:24,656 go, hey, maybe this should move. And there's some exceptions, 884 00:45:24,656 --> 00:45:26,933 that like ankle sprain. Some people will swell up a ton 885 00:45:26,933 --> 00:45:29,759 if you can get some of that out of there and keep them moving. 886 00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,053 Yes, but that doesn't mean you can just return back to sport 887 00:45:32,053 --> 00:45:34,826 with a grade three ankle sprain. That means, dude, you broke that 888 00:45:34,826 --> 00:45:36,449 thing. Your ankle's swollen for a 889 00:45:36,449 --> 00:45:38,224 reason. We can try to get some of that 890 00:45:38,224 --> 00:45:40,478 down to help you move a little better, but no, you're not 891 00:45:40,478 --> 00:45:41,939 returning to run. You gotta wait. 892 00:45:41,939 --> 00:45:45,539 You gotta let the tissue heal. Like we're gonna help you feel 893 00:45:45,539 --> 00:45:49,251 better, but there are limits. So the ice baths, yes, are very, 894 00:45:49,251 --> 00:45:52,409 very effective that, but they can blunt training responses and 895 00:45:52,409 --> 00:45:56,207 when used for performance in the middle of like repeated racing, 896 00:45:56,207 --> 00:45:57,874 yes. But everybody is getting on 897 00:45:57,874 --> 00:46:00,239 board with like the cold plunges, stuff like that. 898 00:46:00,240 --> 00:46:03,039 You have to realize that is for something completely different. 899 00:46:03,039 --> 00:46:07,637 And that can get in the way of adaptations, especially if 900 00:46:07,637 --> 00:46:11,113 you're training really hard for ongoing training, not racing, 901 00:46:11,113 --> 00:46:14,159 but training to get better, that can get in the way. 902 00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:16,719 So you have to ask yourself which of these physiological 903 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,279 things are most important to me and balance that out. 904 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,938 You can't get everything you want. 905 00:46:21,938 --> 00:46:24,596 You have to make concessions somewhere. 906 00:46:24,596 --> 00:46:26,656 Right. And I think another good point 907 00:46:26,656 --> 00:46:30,153 to make here is some people might say, Oh well, the only way 908 00:46:30,153 --> 00:46:33,993 I can get through a marathon training block is to cold plunge 909 00:46:33,993 --> 00:46:37,024 or go to a recovery place and do cryo. 910 00:46:37,024 --> 00:46:40,437 Right. That might be so one runners 911 00:46:40,437 --> 00:46:44,810 tend to overdo their training. Like in any type of training, 912 00:46:44,810 --> 00:46:48,160 you can talk about like the minimal effective dose, right? 913 00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:53,853 If your goal is to run a three hour marathon, well, what's the 914 00:46:53,853 --> 00:46:57,200 minimal effective dose of mileage intensity that you need 915 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,840 to do to achieve that goal? That's what you should do 916 00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:05,680 because that will reduce your risk of getting injured and ill. 917 00:47:05,679 --> 00:47:09,080 No matter what you're training for your goals, you probably 918 00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,480 need to do, and I mean there are some exceptions. 919 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,320 There are some people who are massively undertrained for what 920 00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,160 they're trying to do, but I'm not talking about them. 921 00:47:18,159 --> 00:47:22,863 Like you can get sick and miss a week of training and still be 922 00:47:22,863 --> 00:47:24,879 perfectly on track for your goals. 923 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:29,464 If you have pain and you have to take a few days off running and 924 00:47:29,464 --> 00:47:33,094 cross-train, you are still going to be perfectly on track with 925 00:47:33,094 --> 00:47:36,323 your goals. So if you find that your level 926 00:47:36,323 --> 00:47:40,571 the training you're doing is leaving you so sore all the time 927 00:47:40,571 --> 00:47:45,688 that you feel like you need to use all of these recovery 928 00:47:45,688 --> 00:47:50,485 modalities, it might be a sign to look at your training plan, 929 00:47:50,485 --> 00:47:54,843 also your sleep, also your nutrition, because you shouldn't 930 00:47:54,843 --> 00:48:01,680 be in severe pain most days of the week with a proper training, 931 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:05,248 nutrition, and sleep regimen. You know, I gotta shout out 932 00:48:05,248 --> 00:48:07,744 Chris Johnson, who is an amazing PT up at Washington that I've 933 00:48:07,744 --> 00:48:10,935 looked up to for a long time. I got to meet him at CSM last 934 00:48:10,935 --> 00:48:11,759 year. He was awesome. 935 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,880 And I need to contact him and get him on the podcast here 936 00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:16,560 because we'd have so many good conversations. 937 00:48:16,559 --> 00:48:18,960 Especially as a fellow master's runner. 938 00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:24,004 But he put up a thing on Instagram the other day that was 939 00:48:24,004 --> 00:48:26,332 looking at like fitness and health. 940 00:48:26,332 --> 00:48:28,320 Yes. And I thought that was so great. 941 00:48:31,599 --> 00:48:34,204 But a lot of people when they start getting really high 942 00:48:34,204 --> 00:48:36,800 fitness, they often have really poor health at the same time. 943 00:48:37,039 --> 00:48:38,648 Usually they're over-training, they're not getting enough, 944 00:48:38,648 --> 00:48:40,480 they're not sleeping enough, they're not eating enough. 945 00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:44,831 And you don't want to be there. You want to be in the optimal, 946 00:48:44,831 --> 00:48:49,275 the the high performance, high or high yeah, high fitness, high 947 00:48:49,275 --> 00:48:52,779 health, which may not seem as sexy as the other one and you 948 00:48:52,779 --> 00:48:56,095 may not be like be crushing as crazy workouts, but in terms of 949 00:48:56,095 --> 00:48:58,055 your longevity and actually improving and getting better 950 00:48:58,055 --> 00:49:00,448 over time without be getting inj interrupted by injury. 951 00:49:00,448 --> 00:49:02,708 Yes. So yeah, if you're so sore, you 952 00:49:02,708 --> 00:49:04,400 can't and there's gonna be exceptions. 953 00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,080 Like ultra marathoners, like, you know, you're gonna be sore 954 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:09,759 all the time because that's what you're doing to yourself. 955 00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,620 Should you probably see if you can actually adapt to the 956 00:49:12,620 --> 00:49:13,140 training? Yeah. 957 00:49:13,140 --> 00:49:14,960 Is that always fully possible? Maybe not. 958 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,310 But a lot of a lot of athletes, like if you are that sore all 959 00:49:19,310 --> 00:49:21,919 the time, it's one workout doesn't make you better. 960 00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:25,976 It's the stacking of weeks and weeks and weeks on on end, 961 00:49:25,976 --> 00:49:28,780 healthy, consistently, that actually gets your body to adapt 962 00:49:28,780 --> 00:49:31,119 to what you're asking for. And it takes time. 963 00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:34,263 It takes four to six, six to eight weeks, sometimes eight to 964 00:49:34,263 --> 00:49:36,097 twelve weeks to actually see some changes. 965 00:49:36,097 --> 00:49:38,708 It takes time. So if you rush that, you know, 966 00:49:38,708 --> 00:49:41,318 the next thing we're gonna I'm gonna speed through this 967 00:49:41,318 --> 00:49:43,325 recovery slides, walking shoes, the same thing. 968 00:49:43,325 --> 00:49:45,696 Those have never been shown to facilitate recovery. 969 00:49:45,696 --> 00:49:48,889 They're comfortable as hell. Like it's like, oh, this is 970 00:49:48,889 --> 00:49:50,559 nice, right? They feel great. 971 00:49:50,720 --> 00:49:52,655 Like they're a little they're a little overpriced sometimes. 972 00:49:52,655 --> 00:49:54,159 Do they feel good? Are they comfortable? 973 00:49:54,159 --> 00:49:56,634 The nice rockered sole. That, what, what is that? 974 00:49:56,634 --> 00:49:58,559 That Nike, the like sensory input one. 975 00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:00,755 I'm like, ooh, I I kinda wanna try that. 976 00:50:00,755 --> 00:50:02,463 Like I I bet that feels interesting. 977 00:50:02,463 --> 00:50:03,679 That's not gonna facilitate recovery. 978 00:50:03,679 --> 00:50:06,409 It's just gonna provide a different stimulus and make you 979 00:50:06,409 --> 00:50:08,319 feel different or feel better. That's fine. 980 00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,338 That's fine to feel better, but it doesn't mean it's helping you 981 00:50:11,338 --> 00:50:12,840 recover faster. We're not telling you they 982 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:14,239 should feel like crap all the time. 983 00:50:14,240 --> 00:50:17,724 Like you can totally use this stuff, but you need to be honest 984 00:50:17,724 --> 00:50:19,600 that it's not helping you recover faster. 985 00:50:19,599 --> 00:50:22,448 If you think you're feeling better, that's when you might if 986 00:50:22,448 --> 00:50:25,064 you haven't actually recovered, that's where you can over push. 987 00:50:25,064 --> 00:50:28,250 And we're not telling you don't ever push at all, but people 988 00:50:28,250 --> 00:50:30,800 generally tend to do too much. There, and Andrea's totally 989 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:32,720 right. There are lots of people who are 990 00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:34,505 definitely undertrained. Like people haven't done enough 991 00:50:34,505 --> 00:50:37,898 to actually go run a marathon. And then they show up in our 992 00:50:37,898 --> 00:50:39,429 offices. And I'm like, You're training 993 00:50:39,429 --> 00:50:42,468 like 15 miles a week to go run a marathon like that. 994 00:50:42,468 --> 00:50:45,335 No, you can't you can't do that. Like, unless you're getting 995 00:50:45,335 --> 00:50:47,519 massive cross-training that you didn't tell us about. 996 00:50:47,519 --> 00:50:51,092 Like, no, but most runners, this the sport tends to attract 997 00:50:51,092 --> 00:50:54,855 people that like to do a lot. And so the minimal effective 998 00:50:54,855 --> 00:50:58,144 dosage, Jack Daniels talked about this all the time, one of 999 00:50:58,144 --> 00:51:01,600 the most famous coaches out there would say, do the least 1000 00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:04,160 amount you need to get the most. Yep. 1001 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:10,240 Just one more comment along the lines of you know the fitness 1002 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:14,785 and health grid is another concept I read recently, and I 1003 00:51:14,785 --> 00:51:18,584 forget who posted it, it might have been Chris Johnson, is that 1004 00:51:18,584 --> 00:51:20,480 performance is not proof of health. 1005 00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,372 Yeah. Like, and I think talking about 1006 00:51:24,372 --> 00:51:29,370 RED-S, relative energy deficiency in sport, you can be 1007 00:51:29,370 --> 00:51:33,972 massively underfueled and still perform the best that you ever 1008 00:51:33,972 --> 00:51:39,120 have for a while, and then it is all gonna come crashing down. 1009 00:51:39,119 --> 00:51:45,643 So just because you are running well is not a sign that you are 1010 00:51:45,643 --> 00:51:49,885 doing things right. So that I I've heard it a lot 1011 00:51:49,885 --> 00:51:54,500 from patients and just people I know, like, oh, I must be okay 1012 00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:57,920 because I'm running fast. Well, that is not necessarily 1013 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:00,720 true. If you're running fast, but you 1014 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:05,120 also lost 10 pounds over the course of this, you know, 1015 00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,119 marathon block, that might be a problem brewing. 1016 00:52:09,119 --> 00:52:13,326 If you're running fast, but you're sore all the time and 1017 00:52:13,326 --> 00:52:16,858 you're not sleeping, again, like you're running fast now, but 1018 00:52:16,858 --> 00:52:19,139 that doesn't mean what you're doing is okay. 1019 00:52:19,139 --> 00:52:22,559 And it doesn't mean you're gonna be okay a month from now. 1020 00:52:22,559 --> 00:52:25,502 So performance is not as proof of health necessarily. 1021 00:52:25,502 --> 00:52:30,079 My my story on that is that in college, I did run pretty quick. 1022 00:52:30,079 --> 00:52:32,239 My last year, my junior year was great. 1023 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:35,649 Won conference, all the stuff, my freshman year or my, my, my, 1024 00:52:35,649 --> 00:52:38,929 my fall of senior year did great, made it to nationals for 1025 00:52:38,929 --> 00:52:41,759 cross country, was very sick and didn't do well there. 1026 00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:45,577 Fine, stayed up all night trying to do a final project. 1027 00:52:45,577 --> 00:52:49,039 My s spring track of senior year just fell apart. 1028 00:52:49,039 --> 00:52:50,903 I I was running 100 plus miles a week. 1029 00:52:50,903 --> 00:52:52,559 I was trying to do everything I could. 1030 00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:54,504 And it wasn't until like it just fell apart. 1031 00:52:54,504 --> 00:52:56,880 I didn't do well. I didn't hit the times I want. 1032 00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,922 It wasn't until that summer post-college where I actually 1033 00:52:59,922 --> 00:53:03,512 was did a little bit less mileage, was getting more sleep, 1034 00:53:03,512 --> 00:53:06,548 was getting a little bit better qual, like balance in my 1035 00:53:06,548 --> 00:53:10,109 quality, that I actually ran my 5K PR during the summer, ran 1036 00:53:10,109 --> 00:53:13,334 14:45, and it was when I was least expecting, because I'm 1037 00:53:13,334 --> 00:53:16,612 like, I'm not getting as much miles in, you know, I'm, you 1038 00:53:16,612 --> 00:53:19,840 know, working a little bit more. I'm just kind of chilling out. 1039 00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,039 And then that came out of nowhere and I went, Oh. 1040 00:53:23,039 --> 00:53:26,399 Like I thought I was performing well before, but it I was 1041 00:53:26,399 --> 00:53:28,639 overreaching and was trying to do too much. 1042 00:53:28,639 --> 00:53:31,439 And again, do the least amount of needs you need to get bet to 1043 00:53:31,439 --> 00:53:34,116 get better and adapt to it. And so that that happened when I 1044 00:53:34,116 --> 00:53:36,429 finally backed off a little bit. I'm like, I should probably 1045 00:53:36,429 --> 00:53:38,338 learn. And then I didn't, it took me 1046 00:53:38,338 --> 00:53:40,417 years after that to finally figure that out again. 1047 00:53:40,417 --> 00:53:43,892 But yeah. Now speaking of which on the 1048 00:53:43,892 --> 00:53:46,400 nutrition component, how about supplements? 1049 00:53:47,519 --> 00:53:51,648 Well, one, we did a great episode with Jen Giles, who's a 1050 00:53:51,648 --> 00:53:54,400 sports RD and a nutrition professor at Columbia. 1051 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,039 So I would highly recommend checking that out. 1052 00:53:57,039 --> 00:54:03,535 Because obviously Matt and I are not dieticians, but so I will 1053 00:54:03,535 --> 00:54:08,100 leave supplements to that episode, but as far as recovery, 1054 00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:13,308 you have to eat enough and you have to eat enough at the right 1055 00:54:13,308 --> 00:54:15,548 time. So there's obviously all 1056 00:54:15,548 --> 00:54:18,813 endurance athletes know the importance of carbohydrates, 1057 00:54:18,813 --> 00:54:22,080 right? But interestingly, the timing of 1058 00:54:22,080 --> 00:54:25,440 your carbohydrates after a workout matters. 1059 00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,878 So if you finish your workout and then don't eat anything for 1060 00:54:29,878 --> 00:54:34,694 three hours, but then catch up on that carbohydrate intake, you 1061 00:54:34,694 --> 00:54:41,283 will recover less well than if you had taken in, you know, 200 1062 00:54:41,283 --> 00:54:46,678 calories of carbs in the first 30 to 60 minutes after your 1063 00:54:46,678 --> 00:54:48,639 workout. So that's very interesting. 1064 00:54:48,639 --> 00:54:50,973 Because a lot of people, you know, how many people have been 1065 00:54:50,973 --> 00:54:53,647 told, oh, if you're just doing like a shorter, easy run, you 1066 00:54:53,647 --> 00:54:57,043 don't need to take nutrition in right away afterwards, just wait 1067 00:54:57,043 --> 00:54:59,199 until your next meal. That's not true. 1068 00:54:59,599 --> 00:55:02,938 It is actually helpful to get those carbohydrates in 1069 00:55:02,938 --> 00:55:08,031 immediately, even if it was just you know a five or six mile easy 1070 00:55:08,031 --> 00:55:10,815 run. Now, if you did a hard workout, 1071 00:55:10,815 --> 00:55:15,679 you want to get carbs and, you know, 10 to 20 grams of protein. 1072 00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:19,840 I always aim for the higher end of 20, because protein is what 1073 00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:23,528 is going to actually help you rebuild the muscle fibers that 1074 00:55:23,528 --> 00:55:26,159 you just broke down during your workout. 1075 00:55:26,159 --> 00:55:30,305 So the timing of carbs and protein post-workout are very 1076 00:55:30,305 --> 00:55:33,547 important. Your body actually has a greater 1077 00:55:33,547 --> 00:55:37,457 ability to take up glucose immediately after a workout as 1078 00:55:37,457 --> 00:55:42,640 compared to a few hours later. So the timing of nutrition and 1079 00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:46,160 the amount of nutrition are key for recovery. 1080 00:55:46,159 --> 00:55:48,759 So I'm also very much a buy where I kind of do the same 1081 00:55:48,759 --> 00:55:51,296 thing, which like anecdotally just like a three to one or or 1082 00:55:51,296 --> 00:55:54,192 what like one to three for protein to carbs or whatever. 1083 00:55:54,192 --> 00:55:56,559 I just I'm just looking to get something in. 1084 00:55:56,559 --> 00:55:59,440 So for me, chocolate milk is a really easy thing post-run that 1085 00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,764 I'll even on a short eat like two or like three mile easy run, 1086 00:56:02,764 --> 00:56:05,290 I'll still knock out one of these things just because I know 1087 00:56:05,290 --> 00:56:07,444 it's actually helping facilitate because I am restoring muscle 1088 00:56:07,444 --> 00:56:09,974 glycogen at a faster rate because my body is more 1089 00:56:09,974 --> 00:56:12,745 receptive to that and a little protein because I'm like, hey, 1090 00:56:12,745 --> 00:56:14,000 why not facilitate little recovery? 1091 00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,023 So this is an area where absolutely a buy a lot of the 1092 00:56:17,023 --> 00:56:20,260 supplements will lead to that episode, but I'm also not as big 1093 00:56:20,260 --> 00:56:23,365 at having tried most of them, just same thing. 1094 00:56:23,365 --> 00:56:25,900 Like appropriate nutrition. Yes, there's some great evidence 1095 00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:28,300 for cognitive tasks with creatine and muscle building, 1096 00:56:28,300 --> 00:56:31,875 but that responds better to things like lifting and things 1097 00:56:31,875 --> 00:56:34,150 like that. Running the evidence isn't quite 1098 00:56:34,150 --> 00:56:36,114 as good. There's some there, but if you 1099 00:56:36,114 --> 00:56:38,304 really pay attention to who's sponsoring the study, then you 1100 00:56:38,304 --> 00:56:40,515 start to see a little bit more murkiness. 1101 00:56:40,515 --> 00:56:43,619 With that, not saying creatine's bad, not saying protein powders 1102 00:56:43,619 --> 00:56:45,940 are bad. I think American diets typically 1103 00:56:45,940 --> 00:56:48,319 people get a lot of protein anyway. 1104 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,428 Maybe not in the best forms, but you know, if you that's not 1105 00:56:52,428 --> 00:56:55,415 where you need to really supplement, having a balance of 1106 00:56:55,415 --> 00:56:57,599 everything you actually need is the most important. 1107 00:56:57,599 --> 00:57:01,304 And I would agree, timing post run is probably a real is a 1108 00:57:01,304 --> 00:57:03,647 really important time. Do not wait three, four hours 1109 00:57:03,647 --> 00:57:06,560 till the next meal. Get a little something, a snack, 1110 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:11,040 a a little bar, a some a banana, something that you can get in 1111 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:16,175 there is really, really helpful. So yes, definitely a buy on 1112 00:57:16,175 --> 00:57:19,439 that. Then the buy or sell is: sleep, 1113 00:57:19,439 --> 00:57:22,239 the single most important factor in recovery? 1114 00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:26,804 Well, if you were gonna talk about the three that we 1115 00:57:26,804 --> 00:57:30,268 mentioned, sleep, a proper training regimen, and nutrition, 1116 00:57:30,268 --> 00:57:35,120 they're all pretty important, but even I would say if you have 1117 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:38,262 like a well-written training plan, you're flexible with it, 1118 00:57:38,262 --> 00:57:42,451 you have good nutrition, but you're not sleeping, sleep will 1119 00:57:42,451 --> 00:57:43,759 kill you. Yep. 1120 00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,292 So that's so well, if you're actually s the problem is, and 1121 00:57:46,292 --> 00:57:49,294 this is a shout out to my good friend and colleague, Dr. Tess 1122 00:57:49,294 --> 00:57:53,166 Swake here at George Fox, who I co-teach Ortho with, if you are 1123 00:57:53,166 --> 00:57:55,920 not eating enough, you're not gonna be able to sleep. 1124 00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:58,936 And so there's a lot of people who are over training that are 1125 00:57:58,936 --> 00:58:01,434 like that are aren't eating enough going, oh I get plenty of 1126 00:58:01,434 --> 00:58:02,134 sleep. What's the sleep? 1127 00:58:02,134 --> 00:58:04,400 Oh I I can't like it takes me like hours to fall asleep. 1128 00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:08,000 I've had sleep interrupted. If you are over training, you 1129 00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,144 often won't sleep well. If you're not eating enough, you 1130 00:58:11,144 --> 00:58:13,984 won't sleep well. So it's not, it's that you don't 1131 00:58:13,984 --> 00:58:16,732 get to prioritize one. They're all important. 1132 00:58:16,732 --> 00:58:18,880 Sleep, nutrition, appropriate training. 1133 00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,857 It's not the single most because it will get affected by the 1134 00:58:22,857 --> 00:58:26,039 other things. So yeah, I'd say it's it is very 1135 00:58:26,039 --> 00:58:28,239 important, but you don't get to prioritize. 1136 00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:31,267 You have to do all of them if you want optimal stuff. 1137 00:58:31,267 --> 00:58:32,898 Right. If you're not doing it, and I 1138 00:58:32,898 --> 00:58:35,448 say that as someone with a three year old and that previous, you 1139 00:58:35,448 --> 00:58:37,519 know, child, like you're gonna have to make concessions. 1140 00:58:37,519 --> 00:58:40,431 You're gonna go, hey, I may not be able to do the same volume 1141 00:58:40,431 --> 00:58:41,679 because I'm just not sleeping enough. 1142 00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:45,805 And that took me a long time to go, I'm okay doing five or six 1143 00:58:45,805 --> 00:58:48,920 miles in the morning instead of my eight to ten, just because I 1144 00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:51,312 haven't slept and I need to make that concession if I want to 1145 00:58:51,312 --> 00:58:53,336 stay healthy. And that's, that's how all the 1146 00:58:53,336 --> 00:58:56,639 really good masters runners that I know are willing to have that 1147 00:58:56,639 --> 00:58:59,968 adaptability that Andrea mentioned, going, hey, don't get 1148 00:58:59,968 --> 00:59:02,880 stuck to the training plan. Be adaptable. 1149 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:08,145 It's about getting better, not winning each day individually. 1150 00:59:08,145 --> 00:59:11,655 All right. Last one, post-run stretching 1151 00:59:11,655 --> 00:59:14,942 routines. And I I asked this as someone 1152 00:59:14,942 --> 00:59:18,799 who for years I had this very strict stretching routine. 1153 00:59:18,800 --> 00:59:22,485 And then actually when I left col when I graduated from 1154 00:59:22,485 --> 00:59:25,579 college, I just stopped doing. I'm like, I don't have time for 1155 00:59:25,579 --> 00:59:26,589 this. I'm in grad school. 1156 00:59:26,589 --> 00:59:28,980 I'm also trying to work. I'm just I'm still running 100 1157 00:59:28,980 --> 00:59:31,280 miles a week, which was probably not the best idea. 1158 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:33,960 I'm gonna let go of the post run stretching routine. 1159 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,104 Andrea, what do you think? Buy or sell. 1160 00:59:36,104 --> 00:59:38,091 All right. I'm gonna say sell. 1161 00:59:38,091 --> 00:59:42,080 I found a great article. Let me pull it up here. 1162 00:59:42,079 --> 00:59:47,397 So it is from it is a systematic review and meta-analysis from 1163 00:59:47,397 --> 00:59:50,640 2025. We can drop it in the show 1164 00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:55,040 notes, but it looked at the effect of stretching on running 1165 00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:59,750 economy. And it found that there is no 1166 00:59:59,750 --> 01:00:02,960 evidence that stretching influences running economy. 1167 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:08,350 So there's some and of course, anytime you study something that 1168 01:00:08,350 --> 01:00:12,280 affects running economy, which basically has it's 1169 01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,770 multifactorial, right? It's hard to tease out how one 1170 01:00:16,770 --> 01:00:20,210 thing affects a multifactorial thing like running economy, 1171 01:00:20,210 --> 01:00:22,479 right? Because people aren't just 1172 01:00:22,479 --> 01:00:25,239 stretching, they're probably also strength training, 1173 01:00:25,239 --> 01:00:28,059 nutrition influences, sleep influences it, their training 1174 01:00:28,059 --> 01:00:30,880 plan influences it. And different people are going 1175 01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:32,559 to respond differently to stretching. 1176 01:00:32,559 --> 01:00:36,139 But I've got to say, in my clinical practice, the thing I 1177 01:00:36,139 --> 01:00:39,819 hear most from patients is I know I should stretch more, but 1178 01:00:39,819 --> 01:00:42,619 I don't. And it's like, well, you maybe 1179 01:00:42,619 --> 01:00:44,719 don't need to do static stretching. 1180 01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:49,319 Like that maybe isn't like the number one thing that will make 1181 01:00:49,319 --> 01:00:52,000 your running or cycling or whatever better. 1182 01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:57,111 Some people will respond better to dynamic mobility pre or 1183 01:00:57,111 --> 01:01:00,688 post-workout. Some people do well with static 1184 01:01:00,688 --> 01:01:03,522 stretching. I have kind of a combination 1185 01:01:03,522 --> 01:01:07,002 static and dynamic stretching routine that I've done before 1186 01:01:07,002 --> 01:01:09,206 running and cycling for 30 years. 1187 01:01:09,206 --> 01:01:13,731 I've changed it a little bit over the years, but it works for 1188 01:01:13,731 --> 01:01:16,431 me. And when I stop doing it, I 1189 01:01:16,431 --> 01:01:19,449 don't feel as well when I run or ride. 1190 01:01:19,449 --> 01:01:22,799 And so I've found what parameters work well for me. 1191 01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:28,788 But there is really no good evidence to say one way or 1192 01:01:28,788 --> 01:01:32,780 another, every runner must stretch post-running to be 1193 01:01:32,780 --> 01:01:34,931 healthy. That just doesn't exist. 1194 01:01:34,931 --> 01:01:38,639 Now, for an individual, it may be very helpful. 1195 01:01:38,639 --> 01:01:42,511 And I know for you Yeah, I would very much agree with you on 1196 01:01:42,511 --> 01:01:44,719 that, that again, for every single person, no. 1197 01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:48,507 And I'm gonna try not to put my bias in that yes, as I have my 1198 01:01:48,507 --> 01:01:51,687 Achilles tendon, which I keep using as an example, I have 1199 01:01:51,687 --> 01:01:54,738 insertional tendinopathy, which often can come from decreased 1200 01:01:54,738 --> 01:01:56,633 dorsiflexion. You can't stretch tendinopathies 1201 01:01:56,633 --> 01:01:59,279 early on. It actually makes it worse. 1202 01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,679 So it's taken a while of consistent good loading that now 1203 01:02:02,679 --> 01:02:05,760 after almost a year, I can actually do some stretching. 1204 01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:08,719 But if I try to stretch it when it's cold, it's awful. 1205 01:02:08,720 --> 01:02:11,852 So I've had a dynamic warm-up routine that I use either 1206 01:02:11,852 --> 01:02:14,665 pre-pre-workout or sometimes I've just used it as I'm getting 1207 01:02:14,665 --> 01:02:17,415 older just to kind of get some mobility in there. 1208 01:02:17,415 --> 01:02:19,638 But not static. Post run, I have started to 1209 01:02:19,638 --> 01:02:22,191 realize there's one or two things that I need as an 1210 01:02:22,191 --> 01:02:24,480 individual to work on that actually decreases pain. 1211 01:02:24,480 --> 01:02:28,371 And I've actually, of course, I have tracked this both doing a 1212 01:02:28,371 --> 01:02:32,972 pain scale and what's called the VISA -A, it's the Victorian 1213 01:02:32,972 --> 01:02:36,996 Institute of Sports Something for Achilles tendinopathy, and 1214 01:02:36,996 --> 01:02:41,229 found that I have a lot less pain in my Achilles tendon later 1215 01:02:41,229 --> 01:02:44,979 on if I do just some basic calf static stretching, but it has to 1216 01:02:44,979 --> 01:02:46,820 be done afterwards because that's where there's more blood 1217 01:02:46,820 --> 01:02:47,840 flow. Things are less irritable. 1218 01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:50,320 But I've just started to realize, hey, this is something 1219 01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:53,356 that I need to do because I gotta get that dorsiflexion back 1220 01:02:53,356 --> 01:02:56,516 because you need adequate dorsiflexion to be able to run. 1221 01:02:56,516 --> 01:02:59,044 How much again? That's does everybody need to 1222 01:02:59,044 --> 01:02:59,970 stretch? No, right? 1223 01:02:59,970 --> 01:03:03,325 Other people, those that may be hypermobile or those that have 1224 01:03:03,325 --> 01:03:06,744 normal muscle tone, no, that may not that you may not need that. 1225 01:03:06,744 --> 01:03:07,920 So does everybody need it? No. 1226 01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:10,932 Are there certain people that may respond really, really well 1227 01:03:10,932 --> 01:03:12,738 and may have decreased pain later? 1228 01:03:12,738 --> 01:03:15,404 Yes. Is that helping me recover 1229 01:03:15,404 --> 01:03:16,350 faster? No. 1230 01:03:16,350 --> 01:03:20,417 It's just it's not. And we know that from the 1231 01:03:20,417 --> 01:03:23,313 evidence of like stretching, static stretching can reduce 1232 01:03:23,313 --> 01:03:27,001 muscle soreness, it can make you feel better, but it again, just 1233 01:03:27,001 --> 01:03:29,311 like everything else, outside of sleep, nutrition, and 1234 01:03:29,311 --> 01:03:31,321 appropriate training, it's not going to accelerate that. 1235 01:03:31,321 --> 01:03:33,039 It just may make you feel better. 1236 01:03:33,039 --> 01:03:36,276 I'm treating an injury, going, hey, this is the only time when 1237 01:03:36,276 --> 01:03:39,399 I can actually stretch this well without symptoms, and it's made 1238 01:03:39,399 --> 01:03:42,490 a noticeable impact on symptoms later and it's improving my 1239 01:03:42,490 --> 01:03:44,810 function. For me as an individual, yes, 1240 01:03:44,810 --> 01:03:48,159 getting that, like I said, the dorsiflexion back, great, right? 1241 01:03:48,159 --> 01:03:50,612 Other people may find that this is the perfect time to just get 1242 01:03:50,612 --> 01:03:52,384 that. Don't you don't need like a 1243 01:03:52,384 --> 01:03:53,440 40-minute stretch routine, right? 1244 01:03:53,440 --> 01:03:56,079 Unless you are that stiff. And then maybe you do. 1245 01:03:56,079 --> 01:03:57,519 But most people's like, hey, fine. 1246 01:03:57,519 --> 01:04:00,496 If there's one thing that tends to get a little stiff, you're 1247 01:04:00,496 --> 01:04:02,480 already warm, perfect time to do it, right? 1248 01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:06,738 Where I'd be really cautious and where I am careful is if I did a 1249 01:04:06,738 --> 01:04:09,973 super hard speed workout where my calves and Achilles tendon 1250 01:04:09,973 --> 01:04:13,490 are already fried, when you stretch, like static stretching 1251 01:04:13,490 --> 01:04:16,725 to get range of motion, you are causing tissue damage. 1252 01:04:16,725 --> 01:04:20,064 So not saying stretching is bad, just to know hey, when is it 1253 01:04:20,064 --> 01:04:21,412 appropriate? When is it not? 1254 01:04:21,412 --> 01:04:24,142 But overarching, does it help recovery for every single runner 1255 01:04:24,142 --> 01:04:24,960 out there? No. 1256 01:04:24,960 --> 01:04:27,501 There's certain people yes. Other people no. 1257 01:04:27,501 --> 01:04:30,399 It's more complicated than just yes or no. 1258 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:33,358 Except sleep nutrition and other stuff. 1259 01:04:33,358 --> 01:04:35,823 That's right. That's pretty simple. 1260 01:04:35,823 --> 01:04:38,284 It is. Except it's not. 1261 01:04:38,284 --> 01:04:41,455 Except it's not. It's also individual for how 1262 01:04:41,455 --> 01:04:44,505 much each person needs sleep-wise, how exact how much 1263 01:04:44,505 --> 01:04:47,480 calories each person needs, the balance, and stuff like that. 1264 01:04:47,480 --> 01:04:50,000 And since we kind of training you need, yeah. 1265 01:04:50,159 --> 01:04:52,400 Since we are not sleep physicians, nor are we 1266 01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,280 dietitians, and will not pretend to be, we'll be very careful and 1267 01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:57,480 they go, it's really important, but there are people that know 1268 01:04:57,480 --> 01:05:00,881 that stuff much better than us that are gonna be able to 1269 01:05:00,881 --> 01:05:04,311 educate you even better. But yeah, hope that was helpful. 1270 01:05:04,311 --> 01:05:07,840 Andrea, any last thoughts? I think we covered a lot. 1271 01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:12,196 Basically what we hope you take away from this episode is 1272 01:05:12,196 --> 01:05:16,860 there's all these things you can buy that might make you feel 1273 01:05:16,860 --> 01:05:20,610 better, but they aren't actually helping you recover faster from 1274 01:05:20,610 --> 01:05:23,760 your training. If you really are focused on 1275 01:05:23,760 --> 01:05:27,360 improving your recovery from the training you're doing, sleep, 1276 01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,124 nutrition, and a good training plan are the three most 1277 01:05:31,124 --> 01:05:34,328 important things. All the rest is just the icing 1278 01:05:34,328 --> 01:05:37,459 on top. But if you don't have that base 1279 01:05:37,459 --> 01:05:40,909 of sleep nutrition and proper training, it doesn't matter if 1280 01:05:40,909 --> 01:05:46,719 you foam roll, an hour a day, cold plunge, whatever. 1281 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:50,934 You've got to have the major components before you worry 1282 01:05:50,934 --> 01:05:53,039 about those smaller components. Yeah. 1283 01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:55,481 And I would definitely caution people that are trying to use 1284 01:05:55,481 --> 01:05:57,920 the icing on the cake to try to replace the cake. 1285 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,099 That's you need to reflect on what you're actually doing right 1286 01:06:01,099 --> 01:06:03,119 and going, are you compensating for something? 1287 01:06:03,119 --> 01:06:06,239 And that might explain why you keep getting injured, right? 1288 01:06:06,240 --> 01:06:09,802 So your body can only handle so much, and you have to respect 1289 01:06:09,802 --> 01:06:11,440 that. We can't all be Olympians. 1290 01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:14,109 That's just the way they go. And if you actually look at a 1291 01:06:14,109 --> 01:06:16,159 lot of them, their actual health is not that good. 1292 01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:17,600 That is correct. Fitness is great. 1293 01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:19,520 Health in a lot of them, not great. 1294 01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,320 So maybe you don't want to be. All power to them. 1295 01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:24,840 It's amazing. At this point in my life, I 1296 01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,359 don't think I'd ever want to do that now. 1297 01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,112 I've, I've worked with too many to be like, oh, that, that's 1298 01:06:31,112 --> 01:06:32,672 really hard. That's a lot. 1299 01:06:32,672 --> 01:06:35,415 So kudos to them. As always, you can find us on a 1300 01:06:35,415 --> 01:06:38,043 variety of different places. You can find us on all the 1301 01:06:38,043 --> 01:06:39,920 different podcast areas, Spotify, you name it. 1302 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,240 Every single week we put out the YouTube channel of this. 1303 01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,841 So if you want to also see us as we're doing this, you can watch 1304 01:06:44,841 --> 01:06:46,696 us on YouTube. For those of you that are 1305 01:06:46,696 --> 01:06:48,916 happily happy listening, we're very thankful for you and always 1306 01:06:48,916 --> 01:06:51,248 appreciate any of the feedbacks, comments that you all give. 1307 01:06:51,248 --> 01:06:52,664 Please, please, please let us know. 1308 01:06:52,664 --> 01:06:55,690 We get a lot of emails. Please know that all of us are 1309 01:06:55,690 --> 01:06:57,760 working at least one, if not multiple full-time jobs. 1310 01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,326 So sometimes getting to those emails can be a little bit 1311 01:07:00,326 --> 01:07:02,239 difficult. And that's why we do a lot of 1312 01:07:02,239 --> 01:07:03,706 the mailbag episodes, which you also help. 1313 01:07:03,706 --> 01:07:06,262 But don't hesitate to reach out. We will do our best to respond 1314 01:07:06,262 --> 01:07:08,669 and hope that we can help you and hope that this is all 1315 01:07:08,669 --> 01:07:10,461 helping you. And again, you can find us on 1316 01:07:10,461 --> 01:07:13,276 lots of different areas as well. Our main place that we get lots 1317 01:07:13,276 --> 01:07:15,784 of different content out comes out on our main website, which 1318 01:07:15,784 --> 01:07:18,580 again we are super excited for the thousandth time that we 1319 01:07:18,580 --> 01:07:20,400 redid it. It looks so much better. 1320 01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,128 And on the back end, it's also way easier to actually like 1321 01:07:23,128 --> 01:07:24,944 modify and do everything we need to do. 1322 01:07:24,944 --> 01:07:27,260 So go check that out. If you have any feedback, let us 1323 01:07:27,260 --> 01:07:28,780 know. And then of course, YouTube, 1324 01:07:28,780 --> 01:07:30,656 Instagram, all the other different social sites, 1325 01:07:30,656 --> 01:07:32,799 LinkedIn, which BJ does a great job of. 1326 01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:35,200 Feel free to give us any feedback and let us know what 1327 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:36,913 you're thinking. And hope that wherever you are 1328 01:07:36,913 --> 01:07:39,322 listening or watching this from you're doing well and that this 1329 01:07:39,322 --> 01:07:42,200 is helping because that's what we want to do is help support 1330 01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,080 you as we also learn along with you