1 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:12,160 Hello everyone and welcome to the Doctors of Running Podcast 2 00:00:12,160 --> 00:00:14,720 where we, a group of doctors of Physical therapy, discuss the 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,880 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:18,920 feet. Today at the Round Table we have 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:21,000 Doctor Matthew Klein, the founder of Doctors of Running, 6 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:23,800 Doctor David Salas, Senior Contributor and then myself, 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,800 Nathan Brown and we're pumped to be together. 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,240 We always appreciate the times to reconnect on Sunday nights 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,040 throughout the month and we actually have a jam packed show 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:35,080 tonight. We don't know how much of it 11 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:37,120 we're actually going to get through, but we have some major 12 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,400 topics. We're going to be talking about 13 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,160 some new super shoes that are coming out on the market very, 14 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:45,880 very soon, if not by the time this release they may also be 15 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,560 out or at least information will be out there in the world. 16 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,040 Obviously. The second thing is we're going 17 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,840 to go into the topic of should we be training in super shoes 18 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:56,760 and really what are the considerations we should make 19 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,640 when we do train in super shoes or if we do or should we? 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,480 And we are going to be using a recent study that came out from 21 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:06,960 somebody who reached out to us with their research that they 22 00:01:06,960 --> 00:01:08,560 had just done. And so we're going to talk about 23 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:11,280 the findings of that study and some of the considerations that 24 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,480 it brings to the table. Finally, if we have time, we're 25 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,200 going to go into talking about calf strains and all the 26 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,000 different types of calf strains that might exist and maybe some 27 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,760 considerations for how you can progress through your rehab. 28 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,760 So jam packed show we'll see what we get through. 29 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,400 But first we're going to start with our subjective, which is 30 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,160 has nothing to do with any of these and it's just actually 31 00:01:32,160 --> 00:01:34,000 something I'm curious about from you both. 32 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:37,320 We get to test a lot of different things. 33 00:01:37,320 --> 00:01:39,600 Footwear, apparel, all this stuff I. 34 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:41,920 Don't know why I was ready for an NBA question. 35 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:44,520 I don't. Oh, it's not about Giannis. 36 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,320 I had a weird feeling it was going to be an NBA question, OK? 37 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:51,120 Not about the. If the issue was a basketball 38 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,080 team and I sit there awkwardly in the corner like the like, the 39 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,440 OG episodes, like, I'm just kidding. 40 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,520 No, I'm just curious and it's kind of it's kind of A2 pronged 41 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:02,040 question. Prong, it's it the we get a lot 42 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,640 of stuff for free, so we don't take the hit on the financial 43 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,680 side of these things. So if you weren't getting 44 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:13,760 clothes for free, what brand of running clothes would you buy? 45 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,720 Would it be one of these running specific brands or would you go 46 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,800 for a generic one. But if you are and then the 47 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:21,560 second prong is like if you were going to buy running specific 48 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:26,360 brand, which brand if you had to be exclusive, would you do so? 49 00:02:26,640 --> 00:02:29,880 You can also answer that for clothes like and it could be, 50 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,480 yeah, clothes of any kind. So you got to pick one. 51 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,200 Yeah, you're you're talking like lifestyle. 52 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,000 Yeah, like. Oh no, no for running for. 53 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:39,680 Running for. Running. 54 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,440 So no, no crossing over. Yeah. 55 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,160 No, no, no, no. Just for running. 56 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Yeah. Can I go first go for it? 57 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,200 Yeah, go for it. So we have gotten some free 58 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,520 stuff from them, but I'm going to be honest, I'd probably do 59 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,920 what I'm doing right now, which is going to ruin this because 60 00:02:55,920 --> 00:02:59,440 everybody might do this. I hunt on eBay for like for 61 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,160 discounted on stuff because I love their apparel so much but 62 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,040 it's so freaking expensive that like I don't think I have bought 63 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,000 a single piece of it for full price just because yeah, we do 64 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:10,880 get your stuff for free, Yeah, you know. 65 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,960 So I will go and find it for like 30-40 bucks on eBay. 66 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:19,520 So because I it's, I love their stuff so much, it's so 67 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:21,440 comfortable. It's it's so light. 68 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:24,120 Even some of their super light jackets which is like 300 bucks 69 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,400 and I've gotten to pick a couple of them for like $50 or just or 70 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,440 they keep you really warm. I So I would say yes I'd 71 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:34,080 probably keep doing what I'm doing right now which is hunting 72 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,880 stuff on eBay. But I if I had to choose one 73 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,120 company to just have clothes, not necessarily shoes, I'd 74 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,880 probably have to pick on, to be honest. 75 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:45,320 David, what's your answer? Do you want me to go? 76 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,600 No, no, I can go. I man, that is so tough. 77 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,720 So on does make some good stuff. And if you are on a budget, keep 78 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:55,280 a lookout every once in a while because when the season ends, 79 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:58,320 they'll do kind of a clear out sale on their own website and 80 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,640 they'll have things 50% off. And so I've actually bought and 81 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:03,360 like I've I've bought a few things. 82 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,040 Yeah, had 50% off. I mean obviously you don't 83 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,760 really get your like choice and color way all the time, but if 84 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,480 you're looking to just get things like you could do it that 85 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,560 way and it's pretty affordable when it's 50% off. 86 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:22,480 This is tough and I think I am going, I'm actually going to 87 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,720 choose Rabbit and the reason why I'm going to choose rabbit over 88 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,640 on I love the on apparel. But when we talk about the 89 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,960 running exclusive category, you have to take into consideration 90 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,720 as well. The fit of everything and on 91 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:42,680 makes really good tops and the short sleeve, the singlet, the 92 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,280 long sleeve like there are some of my favorite tops, period. 93 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:48,560 They might even be my favorite. But they're shorts. 94 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,000 I feel like need a little bit of work, at least for me of what I 95 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,040 like. And I feel like the rabbit has a 96 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:59,000 more complete profile between the tops, the shorts, the 97 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,960 jackets, the long sleeves, and their performance wear is very 98 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:09,280 close to on as far as lightness. The synthetic feel, like I I 99 00:05:09,280 --> 00:05:12,160 feel like they're pretty interchangeable there. 100 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,400 Like I feel like I might give the nod to on on the tops, but I 101 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:19,400 think as far as the overall package, I'm going to have to go 102 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:21,280 rabbit. That's not a Santa Barbara bias. 103 00:05:21,280 --> 00:05:23,280 That's a genuine. I was going. 104 00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:25,080 To say you just chose that because, yeah, I mean, they're 105 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:27,640 headquarters here, but that's that's a genuine, that's a 106 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:31,320 genuine nod here. If I had to truly choose one 107 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,240 company for Strictly apparel, I think I probably would go with 108 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,880 them, yeah. To be fair, if it was for 109 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,240 everything by the way, I would definitely choose rabbit. 110 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,840 All my students know that I wear those, like really nice rabbit, 111 00:05:41,840 --> 00:05:47,600 high country, long sleeve tops every every time in class. 112 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,920 So that is my pretty much only wardrobe for teaching and 113 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,320 treating so. If I got to go everything, 114 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:58,640 everything like no, I I think I might actually go Lulu. 115 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:03,240 No, I mean the the short sleeve I have. 116 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,440 I'll do full workouts in it and everything and it's great. 117 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,840 I have half tights from them. Like they they make good stuff 118 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,400 even for like running and they can crossover on a lot of stuff. 119 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,800 Nathan, I'm very curious to hear your answer because you've 120 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,600 actually got some unique expertise on apparel. 121 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,240 Testing too. Why do I have our expertise? 122 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:24,000 Yeah, because you got to do some additional apparel. 123 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,320 Testing. Oh, that's true. 124 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:28,240 I I got the test for a magazine, so I tested a lot of other 125 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,480 stuff, but I'll be totally honest, actually, Well, I'm 126 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,120 wearing one of the things from that right now. 127 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:38,360 The stuff that they send is like literally a $270 T-shirt, which 128 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,680 is just completely not OK for me. 129 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,160 I just like, would never do that. 130 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,520 So that was my review. I, like you had to write like 131 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,320 what your recommendations were, and that was like not. 132 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,560 Even would not buy. I'm like, I can't. 133 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:51,120 I can't throw it out there anyway. 134 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,280 Just literally. And I'm not exaggerating. 135 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:56,760 It was $270 T-shirt crazy. Anyway. 136 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,320 You know, I'll be honest, I don't. 137 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,000 If I wasn't in this, I would definitely be buying from like 138 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,200 Target or Old Navy. I would just be getting their 139 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,600 stuff and or just like budget shopping from you know, what was 140 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,640 the other places? What was the original question? 141 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:15,960 I am so sorry. Which? 142 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:17,960 Brand if you had to run it exclusively. 143 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,400 Picking an exclusive brand, would you actually do a running 144 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,520 specific brand or like be outside of that and just get 145 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,160 like I said like? I would go to Target. 146 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,200 Is this something you're not purchasing or you are 147 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,960 purchasing? You are purchasing. 148 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:30,520 You are purchasing. OK. 149 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,360 See, I didn't hear that part. OK, so I. 150 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:36,840 Apologize. That's OK. 151 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,120 You know, I think I might change my answer because Rabbit can be 152 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,320 a little pricey. Well, so it's can I I'll finish 153 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:44,640 mine quick. And I'll go back to you. 154 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:46,920 Yeah, Yeah. Because I've seen these 155 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,640 different tiers. What I what I'm not a fan of is 156 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,800 when you have to pay $20 more for something that doesn't feel 157 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,240 $20 better. I think that rabbit legitimately 158 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,880 feels better than the stuff that I've worn from Target or Old 159 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,480 Navy. It just it just performs better 160 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:04,160 than that. And so I do think that their 161 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,600 price point actually matches their longevity cause. 162 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,720 So I think the benefit that I've seen from rabbit is I've had 163 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:15,200 their tights for winter for five years and have seen nowhere in. 164 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,080 Them they do last. Well, they just have been 165 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,120 awesome and I think in their easy care it's wash, you know, 166 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,200 machine wash, cold tumble dry low, don't bleach, OK, That's 167 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,960 their stuff on their website and I just love how simple that is. 168 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,160 And so for me, if I was going to be dipping into that mark, like 169 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,840 I would buy discounted rabbit stuff. 170 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:36,480 If I, that would be my company as well. 171 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,000 Just I think that they're, I don't know, it's just it's just 172 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:41,799 where I would go. But what were you said you'd 173 00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:42,919 change your answer though, David? 174 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,720 Yeah, I think what I would do is I would go to one of the big 175 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:49,200 players that have discounted retail markets. 176 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,120 And so that would probably be Nike or Adidas most likely. 177 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,320 And I I also grew up inland, so there are outlet malls, you know 178 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,280 like in the desert and things like that. 179 00:08:59,680 --> 00:09:04,040 I could very easily make a 20 minute drive and go and spend 180 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,480 $100 and have four pieces of apparel or more. 181 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,560 You know, like that was a very realistic thing that you could 182 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:10,960 do. But I mean obviously there's 183 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,560 inflation and things like things cost more now, but I could get a 184 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:18,280 good chunk of stuff, you know, for a good chunk of value and 185 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:19,760 they would still last pretty well. 186 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:24,000 So they'd go, you know, go to the Nike, Miller, Singlet, 187 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:28,320 whatever and they're all 15 bucks or you know, stuff like 188 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,080 that. So the. 189 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,840 The Nike 2 inch short was like my ghost for 20 years, 'cause 190 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,000 they're like 30 bucks and then on sale they're like 1015. 191 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,880 And so I'd grab gosh, tons of those when I could find them on 192 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:41,640 sale. So yeah, I totally get that. 193 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:44,600 But I I get the target thing too, because I grew up on the 194 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,120 target shortage. So those are indestructible when 195 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,480 they came out, but they've changed. 196 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,560 But. They're they're indestructible, 197 00:09:52,560 --> 00:09:55,040 but they will also destruct parts of your anatomy if you 198 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,760 chase the runway. Which is why I when I started 199 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,960 working and running retail, I still remember, like, finally 200 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,280 understanding. Oh, like, I remember buying a 201 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,720 pair of Brooks running shorts I'd worn. 202 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,520 I think it was a pair of Target like shorts that had like the 203 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,800 really high liner and the liners were so uncomfortable. 204 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,120 I'd always cut them out and never understood what they were 205 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:15,920 for. I was like, this sucks. 206 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,000 Like, why would I wear this? And this was like, you should 207 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:19,840 try a pair of like, actual running shorts. 208 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:21,800 Like, no offense to the Target stuff and those I bought a pair 209 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,240 of Brooks after severely chafing myself on a 10 mile. 210 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,400 Yeah, I think it might have been, actually. 211 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,360 Actually, I chaved myself badly that morning and I was like, I 212 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,160 have to get my second run in. So I bought a pair and went for 213 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:36,240 another five mile run. It was just smooth and I was 214 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,960 like, I didn't feel any pain. Wow, like I guess this is the 215 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:41,800 thing. I will say Mizuno has really 216 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,680 good pricing on apparel too. So if you had to go out of 217 00:10:44,680 --> 00:10:47,520 pocket and go and purchase like you could get those full price 218 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,960 retail and still have a good value on your money as well. 219 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,360 Yeah. Yeah. 220 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:58,920 Well, I anticipated that taking two minutes and we're 10 minutes 221 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:00,640 into the episode. So anybody who doesn't care 222 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,960 about apparel, I am so sorry. But apparently we can talk to a 223 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:07,880 wall about anything. So let's transition now. 224 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,040 But first, if you do want to talk about your favorite 225 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:11,960 apparel, I don't know, I was just curious. 226 00:11:12,680 --> 00:11:15,240 So if you do want to talk about it, let us know below what you 227 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,560 like and maybe we'll test it out. 228 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,920 But I am very sorry that that took 11 minutes to everybody. 229 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,120 So what we're going to do next is we're going to start 230 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,440 transitioning to a global conversation about training in 231 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,360 super shoes. But before that we will have a 232 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,440 lot of in depth reviews about these shoes at the time of this 233 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:33,760 release. There will be some videos on 234 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,200 YouTube and our written will be coming out soon if it isn't 235 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,040 already there. And it's on the recent drop of 236 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:42,640 the updated meta Speed Sky and Edge Paris. 237 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,760 We got both models in for testing and all of us have been 238 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,440 able to get some time on the shoes. 239 00:11:47,560 --> 00:11:51,040 Don't be fooled, they look very similar but there are distinct 240 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,280 differences that will go into in the reviews. 241 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,960 But the point of talking about it now on the podcast is just 242 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:59,440 because us three haven't been able to really talk about him 243 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,600 and we just want to give our initial impressions to try and 244 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,440 these shoes out. So I'll go first just to get 245 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,320 myself out of the way. I have one run in each of them. 246 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:13,120 So super preliminary thoughts. The first meta speed sky I could 247 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:17,040 not handle because the way that the foam compressed I would. 248 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,200 I felt like I was climbing out of a negative drop. 249 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,320 I've had that experience in a couple different shoes and it 250 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,840 just felt clunky, like I never could get in rhythm. 251 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,240 The only way I could get in rhythm is if I really was 252 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,080 running fast and it was faster than like pretty much any race 253 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,280 pace for me where it started to feel good. 254 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,240 So I just couldn't run in it. And I would say that this 255 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:40,040 experience is completely new. They have a new foam compound. 256 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,800 We got to meet with their team the other the other day we we 257 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:49,200 talked with a couple people from the from the a six team and they 258 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:53,800 talked about it's a full peebo blend, so it's completely peebo 259 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,680 based foam and so much lighter. And I I would say it just feels 260 00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:01,080 different like it's a very different feel under foot. 261 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:05,240 The meta speed sky for me, I don't feel like I'm climbing out 262 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,360 of it anymore but I I still felt like on that run I didn't really 263 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,320 get into rhythm until I was going faster. 264 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:15,640 Whereas in the Edge I I I switched it halfway through my 265 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,920 run just to compare them as well and I put on the edge and I was 266 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:23,280 like oh at slower paces. This is really pushing me 267 00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:26,600 forward, really smooth and fun and I just felt like this. 268 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,040 I'm in rhythm like right away where I didn't feel that with 269 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,240 the sky and we'll talk more but it just there's different 270 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:37,200 geometries of how aggressive the the the the four foot rocker is 271 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,280 and at what point it starts. And I just found myself really 272 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,000 enjoying the edge, at least at those more controlled paces. 273 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:45,120 But what was Y'all's experience like? 274 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,600 David, do you want to go next? Sure, mine was the opposite. 275 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:52,040 No way. I disagree 100%. 276 00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:55,520 Yes. Chaos is what the people want. 277 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,520 They're both nice. They're both really nice, 278 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,160 actually. Like, like you want to look at 279 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:02,720 like Top Shelf shoes. Like, I think both of these 280 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,120 observe a place on there. This is not a knock on any 281 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,120 specific model. They're both really freaking 282 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,760 good. But yeah, I will say the edge, 283 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:14,240 the OR not the edge. My goodness, the sky, the sky. 284 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,640 Paris has a little bit sky. Paris, yeah, has a little bit 285 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:19,440 more soul flaring in the forefoot, the plates not quite 286 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,000 as spooned out. And that toe spring isn't quite 287 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,400 as aggressive, so it has a little bit of flatter feel to it 288 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,920 For me at slower paces that actually felt nice and rhythmic. 289 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,080 Wow. However, when I started picking 290 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:32,800 up the pace now I'm the same way. 291 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,480 I haven't had as much runs on these as I would like, but I 292 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:42,440 have taken them both at race pace so the edge makes you feel 293 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,640 alive. Like this thing, it's spooned 294 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,880 out pretty hard. It's very responsive. 295 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:49,920 It pushes you forward. Like this is a shoe that if I 296 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,720 want to push the pace in like I felt like, yes, that's it. 297 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:59,160 Now I'm curious, long term, like from a marathon perspective, 298 00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:03,840 would I prefer the sky in a 20 mile run or you know, something 299 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:05,640 like that over the edge? I don't know yet. 300 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,400 I I wish I could give you that answer. 301 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,720 But the initial impressions of responsiveness, liveliness, the 302 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:13,800 toe springs sharper like the way the plate is. 303 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,800 You can kind of see it in the foam too, like where that dual 304 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:18,720 layer is. You can kind of see how that 305 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,360 plate design is. It's definitely spooned out more 306 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:26,320 in the Edge and if you also. Look at the it's OK. 307 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:27,000 I'm like. If. 308 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,120 You I every time I've run in these and I've done multiple 309 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,920 runs in both of them, I always have to double check cause the 310 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:33,360 only. Like the outsole. 311 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:37,080 Major like eye-catching difference is either the outsole 312 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,720 or looking in where it says Ed or sky. 313 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:41,760 So I keep. Checking, going Am I so flaring 314 00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:44,000 on the medial part of the forefoot is more on the sky. 315 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,200 Yeah, right. The other interesting thing, 316 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,520 just to call this out, the that little paint piece in the front 317 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,840 actually has a real thing that's indicating kind of kind of how 318 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,760 you're toeing off or kind of what was the term that was used? 319 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,360 It was like the angle. Of toe, off angle. 320 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,600 Toe off angle, Yeah. So they are different but didn't 321 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:02,640 mean to interrupt, David. No, no, you're good. 322 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,400 And I felt like the sky kind of supinated me a little bit, oddly 323 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,680 enough, where I felt like I was kind of getting pushed 324 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,160 laterally. No. 325 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,520 Yeah, so I just kind of had this weird kind of divity feel, but I 326 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,600 I honestly don't know if I had taken that for a long run and I 327 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,120 put it at a marathon type pace, I feel like I could really like 328 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,200 it. And I felt that with both shoes. 329 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,080 And I did feel like the forefoot was a little bit more stable on 330 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,520 the sky than the edge, but the edge felt more responsive as far 331 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:35,800 as like pushing into the ground and popping off. 332 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,200 So like it. It's just like they're both 333 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,320 really good. I just got to figure out what I 334 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:42,640 want them for. Right. 335 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:50,520 I think one other interesting part is the fact that these have 336 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:52,960 both lost a ton of weight. They're. 337 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,560 The lightest ones in the market Now lightest 2 super shoes in 338 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,000 the market. And the other thing about it was 339 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,839 the the drop of the edge used to be 8mm but they brought it down 340 00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,000 to five. But in my opinion it didn't feel 341 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,119 low. It felt it didn't feel low 342 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,839 because you're got that earlier rocker so you're just getting up 343 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:14,800 onto it quicker. But neither. 344 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,920 I was so glad that neither of them felt like that sinking 345 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,560 feeling in the heel that I couldn't enjoy them. 346 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,240 But I can enjoy both of them now. 347 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,000 And I likened it to like for me with with Saucony. 348 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,800 I really like the pro which has the more gradual toe spring or 349 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:36,280 sorry 4 foot rocker, whereas the the elite has that later more 350 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,960 more sharp which is the same. You know, the sky would be akin 351 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,680 to the elite and the there's different, more bigger 352 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,760 differences between different. Phones and all that stuff. 353 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,640 Yes, because they have the later stage, more sharp toe spring 354 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:52,280 whereas. I felt like edge. 355 00:17:52,360 --> 00:17:57,280 And the Pro it's from a geometry standpoint it's just not you 356 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,240 know it has a more gradual earlier starting but it feel 357 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,000 like I feel like you get on it quicker which is why I think it 358 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,680 feels propulsive in that way and tell you I don't know I we have 359 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,160 more testing to do but Matt what was quick your experience and 360 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:10,920 then we're going to go into the real conversation. 361 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:13,760 So I have a little over 20 miles on both them and I've had the 362 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,840 fun which translates to me being stupid and I'm fortunate not got 363 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,920 injured that every workout that I there's all workouts on these 364 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,760 shoe, no easy runs but every single time I've tested them 365 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,040 I've done a workout in one shoe in the morning and then I've 366 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,000 done the same workout in the other shoe in the evening 367 00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:33,640 because I'm psychotic multiple times by the way with Isabella 368 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,840 by the way So doing stroll this like it workouts there, I will 369 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,600 say I appreciate both them. I will say again the edge to me 370 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,360 is the one that works better with my mechanics. 371 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:47,200 I I had the same thing where just like I think the way the 372 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,160 plate is shaped really works very well with how I roll 373 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,800 through shoe. But Oh my gosh the foam is so 374 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,160 much better than in the plus. Like it really feels great. 375 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,400 It's noticeably light it it's way smoother way. 376 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,120 It's definitely piba. It also smells more like piba. 377 00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:05,520 Like I don't if anybody else does this, but I'm like like you 378 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,640 open the box and you're like like Yep, that's that's 379 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,800 definitely it. But it's the edge to me. 380 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,800 The way I'm rolling works really, really well. 381 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,240 It's not a shoe. I really neither one are shoes 382 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,120 that I enjoy for warming up and cooling down. 383 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:24,240 Like not an easy pace kind of shoe but when you're moving the 384 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,400 edge I think is a shoe that I would prefer for longer efforts. 385 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,800 But I've also been able to run pretty quick in both of them. 386 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:36,000 So I get more of that bounce out of the IT, the bounce and roll 387 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,680 through the edge and it just rolls really nicely with my 388 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:41,480 mechanics. I like this, the sky. 389 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:44,480 And I will say this is the first time with these shoes that these 390 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,400 shoes have actually been comparable and like again, 391 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,280 because they're very similar, same drop, very similar stack 392 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,960 heights. The edge actually has a half 393 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:55,240 millimeter more and the sky is just a tiny bit lighter but 394 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,400 outside very like a lot of the similar pieces. 395 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:01,600 Previous versions weren't like that like the last the plus the 396 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,080 edge was noticeably better. It was the sky was like. 397 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:05,680 Boring like. I. 398 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:07,400 Did the minimum miles of the foot. 399 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,800 No, I was. You raced, you raced the sky 400 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:13,200 like actual. That was the. 401 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:15,520 Original Sky. That was the original. 402 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,120 That was the original. Sky Plus, he's talking about. 403 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,680 Skype The Sky and Edge Plus. I thought Edge the Edge Plus was 404 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:23,280 noticeably better. And then we go to the originals 405 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,480 where the Edge Tokyo. I don't even think it was worth 406 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:27,720 the conversation. Like it. 407 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,520 It wasn't the same similar stack height. 408 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:32,680 It just felt like a dud. I didn't enjoy it at all. 409 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,560 The the original Sky though, was great. 410 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,520 It had that bounce and that climbing out of the heel 411 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,880 probably is what contributed to me straining my Achilles like my 412 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,440 Achilles tendon in it. I also took it for a trail race, 413 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,680 which is probably not very smart, but you know, there's 414 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:50,400 that. But yeah, it just feels like 415 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,200 these finally got where they need to be. 416 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,960 I will say what's interesting is the sky takes me a second to 417 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,120 figure out. And I feel like when I modify my 418 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:00,760 mechanics, that's when it comes to life. 419 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,680 Like me trying to run naturally edge all day is great. 420 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,680 The sky I like is the edge just matches. 421 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,800 But when my I can modify my mechanics and really start like 422 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,800 elongating my stride behind me, really start slamming into the 423 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:19,560 ground, like that's when the sky comes alive and that's it just 424 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,000 takes me a little longer to figure out. 425 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,600 So I think there's some differences in how you load the 426 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,480 shoes and I think certain people are going to enjoy this and I 427 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,320 also think they're going to enjoy it depending on the pace. 428 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:32,120 Like when I'm running really fast, like going really hard, 429 00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:35,440 very shorter efforts. I really like the sky for that, 430 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,560 like that feels better. But all those longer efforts, 431 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,040 longer intervals, I did a two mile like impromptu time trial 432 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,440 with Isabella in a stroller and ran like 1058 in the Edge and I 433 00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:49,680 was like this is great. So longer efforts to me felt 434 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,280 better in the Edge, but like really moving, hitting the 435 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,440 ground hard, long stride really felt better in the sky. 436 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,520 So I think different strokes for different folks and how you 437 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,560 react to them. We're going to try to give our 438 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:03,680 best thing, but at the end of the day. 439 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:05,120 If these are if, these are two. Projects. 440 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,360 You're going to have to try them. 441 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:08,800 What? Different strokes for different 442 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:09,840 folks. We should. 443 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,040 I did not make that up that somebody else, that somebody's 444 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,560 face. So yeah, I don't know where, but 445 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,760 we I'm finally done. What we're going to do with 446 00:22:18,760 --> 00:22:22,160 these shoes is we'll have some deeper dives into the design 447 00:22:23,120 --> 00:22:25,480 through our YouTube videos and stuff like I had mentioned. 448 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,400 So keep an eye out for those. Check us out on YouTube and go 449 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,040 to our website and we'll have more in depth analysis of the 450 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,440 differences because there are some distinct ways that they 451 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,240 have different despite how similar they look, in fact they 452 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:38,720 look so similar. Our audio engineer BJ made a 453 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,960 great meme about The Office episode where Pant, where Cleve 454 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,000 gets to be the manager of the office, and that I corporate 455 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:47,040 needs you to find the differences between these two 456 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:48,960 pictures. It cuts to a talking head and 457 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,680 she's like, they're the same picture. 458 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,480 I think that's really funny, but they are. 459 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,440 Posting that right. They're distinct and and I think 460 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:59,160 they they come with very different running experiences 461 00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,880 and we're hopefully going to help people because you know 462 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:04,480 most people don't have the the privilege to be able to just I'm 463 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,240 going to go buy both, test them both and pick the one I like. 464 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,400 So our hope is to really describe the running experience 465 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,920 in each of them for for all of us and try to put out some 466 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,240 content in that way to help people make a decision. 467 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,360 Because just to emphasize, they do, they do feel very different 468 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:22,640 even though they have a lot of separate. 469 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,760 So I think you're totally right. So what we're going to do, we're 470 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,240 going to move forward in this conversation since we've been 471 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,600 talking about how much we're running in different super 472 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,040 shoes. When they come in for test, we 473 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,800 get so many questions about what should I do about training in 474 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,520 super shoes? Should I train in them? 475 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:41,920 Should I just use them for workouts? 476 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:43,320 Should I just use them on race station? 477 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,680 I only use them for long runs, tons of questions in this 478 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,320 category. So what we want to do is have a 479 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,040 conversation about the things that we consider when people 480 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:53,880 say, should I train in super shoes. 481 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,920 So that's what we're going into now is the considerations that 482 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,040 you should have in your head. So Matt, why don't you start us 483 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,880 off and just start talking about some of the considerations you 484 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:04,920 have or things you've been thinking about lately? 485 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,840 Yeah. So I I don't want to take all 486 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:09,600 credit for this, but this is something it's been rattling in 487 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,040 my brain for a little bit, 'cause I've seen some comments 488 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,640 on like YouTube and various emails that maybe think about 489 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:16,880 this that we know. When a lot of this stuff started 490 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,280 coming, coming out, we were, we were very cautious. 491 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,040 We were going, you know what these are are great tools, but 492 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,040 we caution you not to train in these things full time. 493 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,800 We we don't know what the long term implications are. 494 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,040 You know, there we have some ideas about what can, how the 495 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,240 bodies can adapt and it might if you spend a lot of time in 496 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,400 these, you might have difficulty transitioning back to other 497 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:39,280 shoes. That's something you're 498 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,240 interested in. And also because we don't know 499 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,320 how these things affect us long term, they're great tools, 500 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,000 right? I'm not saying you should not 501 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,400 use them, but it was using them all the time that we were a 502 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,360 little bit nervous about and that saying that we were all all 503 00:24:53,360 --> 00:24:57,040 using them. So what kind of made me think 504 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,320 about that was we had somebody on on YouTube, on YouTube 505 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,840 comment going, you know, I know you guys caution this, but I 506 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,760 train full time in these and this is the only thing I can run 507 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,440 in without getting hurt. And it was like, OK, I 508 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:11,360 understand, you know, it's a very small sample, right. 509 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,480 And an end of one, right. But why would we tell someone if 510 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:16,680 that's the only shoe they can run and why would you, like, 511 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,080 tell them not to, right. It's like yes, these are tools. 512 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,400 So what we're not we're not trying to say you shouldn't 513 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:24,320 training these. We're trying to go, you know, 514 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:26,960 there's some things you might need to think about about how 515 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,240 our bodies react to these that you can either go, hey, that's 516 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,640 exactly what I want. Or hey, you know what I need to 517 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,920 think about how I'm utilizing these tools? 518 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,280 And just to give really brief background, I should have done 519 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,840 this right at the beginning, but if you're following this podcast 520 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,440 and you're newer to the running shoe world and we've been saying 521 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,520 super shoe and you're not quite sure what that is. 522 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,520 Just to give you a a brief idea, a super shoe is a shoe that has 523 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,320 a lot of foam underneath which we call stack height. 524 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,720 So the amount of foam under your forefoot and your heel is 525 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,440 usually somewhere around 40mm, lot of foam. 526 00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,840 The type of foam that's used is a blend that has really high 527 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,440 compression and rebound to it. So it's usually we call a PIVA 528 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,360 based midsole and that's material science that we don't 529 00:26:08,360 --> 00:26:11,160 need to talk about today. And then it also usually has a 530 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,240 stiffening agent, which is usually a carbon plate. 531 00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:16,760 And so a lot of the Super shoes are going to have those 3 532 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,000 components. They're going to have a lot of 533 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,920 stack, which have a rocker sole, which is a curve in the 534 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,880 forefoot. They're going to have a PIVA 535 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,400 based midsole most often or properties that are very similar 536 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:27,760 to that. And then they're going to have a 537 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,000 carbon plate. So that's what a super shoe is. 538 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:32,640 And we just want to continue talking about who should train 539 00:26:32,640 --> 00:26:34,800 in those. So thanks for that, Matt, Matt, 540 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,000 David, what are your kind of initial thoughts with training 541 00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,480 in super shoes? Yeah, it's it's a really 542 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,960 interesting take and I know someone personally that who's a 543 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,600 a very good runner and they have had a relatively complex medical 544 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,480 history where like they've had multiple things go on at the 545 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,640 foot and ankle and they've I believe they've had operations. 546 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,360 I I'd ask more on that. But they can't like bend at the 547 00:27:02,360 --> 00:27:06,240 foot that's certain areas. So for them like that really 548 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,280 stiff PBA based midsole like that's like all they can really 549 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,600 run in and they that's like what they feel comfortable in. 550 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,280 And if you could take that dorsiflexion out of the ankle 551 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,160 and out of the great toe and like out of the toes like and 552 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,680 you can just kind of roll with it like now they can have a 553 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,000 running experience that isn't painful in forcing them to move 554 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,400 through certain ranges of motion. 555 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,280 So I think there is a time and place and I I actually now I'm 556 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,040 thinking about it. I know a couple other people too 557 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,520 that have had similar experiences where if it's not a 558 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,720 really stiff rocker, like not necessarily a super shoe, but 559 00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,000 something that's really rockered really stiff, like they can't 560 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,040 run. And usually it's people that 561 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,320 have some kind of operation or something that's putting a lot 562 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,720 of stiffness where it's like a Hallux rigidus or something else 563 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,800 through the great toe through the ankle. 564 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,680 You know, whether it's like an ankle fusion or something like 565 00:27:56,680 --> 00:28:00,160 that, Like some people could really benefit from a pretty 566 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,280 extreme design like that on a daily basis. 567 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,320 And I think most people probably don't need to, but like there 568 00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:10,560 are some people that could genuinely benefit from that. 569 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:13,880 Yeah. And I think I have somebody 570 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:19,560 similar in my mind who's a really great runner and they had 571 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,880 a a great toe fusion and they from very severe OA and even 572 00:28:23,880 --> 00:28:26,440 before they had the fusions, very severe osteoarthritis in 573 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,320 that toe, which didn't allow that big toe to come up or bend 574 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,440 up or extend. And the treatment for that 575 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,080 traditionally in physical therapy or from a podiatrist is 576 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,200 to put a kind of carbon Shank through the big toe so that the 577 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,320 toe doesn't have to bend. He was like these super shoes 578 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,880 coming out are like a lifesaver, 'cause now I can actually wear, 579 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,560 I don't have to wear this kind of insert in the foot, I can 580 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,240 just put my foot in the entire shoe and it's already in there 581 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,360 for me. So it's been a game changer for 582 00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,760 them. So I think we, we in the past 583 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,720 have had this conversation and we've talked about some 584 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:05,480 considerations, but know that these are very real situations 585 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:09,640 where the amount of mobility that you have is potentially 586 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,440 going to be your limiting factor and therefore these shoes are 587 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,600 built in a way that can provide the support that you need. 588 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,000 So that's one consideration is mobility availability. 589 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,760 And so if you only have, if you have limited mobility in certain 590 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,520 joints, these types of shoes can be an aid for you to be able to 591 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,920 run, period. That's not most people. 592 00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,200 So if we take that and we put it to the side, what other 593 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,320 considerations, Matt, do you have in your mind when it comes 594 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,000 to what are the implications of training in super shoes? 595 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,240 So before we go any further, So what I'm hearing is a lot of 596 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,760 things about like the joint mechanics in terms of how much 597 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,440 range of motions available. What would be the difference for 598 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,800 you too before I go forward in terms of why would they do well, 599 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,480 why? Why a super shoe versus just a 600 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,720 stiffer, very rocker shoe like training shoe? 601 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:00,880 What would be, what would be the difference in thought process 602 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,480 there? For me it's the same. 603 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,560 I think. I think people have done really 604 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,640 well with the endorphin shift, but that's kind of going away. 605 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,120 People have also done well in the Glide Ride 3:00, but that 606 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,760 has some toe spring in it. So the toe spring in the Glide 607 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:14,760 Ride three has prohibited some people. 608 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,360 That's so I I don't think there's a difference. 609 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,120 I think it's just hard to get a stiff enough shoe that doesn't 610 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:23,720 have carbon in it. So for me that's the problem is 611 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,480 there and and I don't think it's worth creating a a training shoe 612 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,120 with a carbon plate in it just for the even though it's. 613 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,360 A few of them, yeah. Yes, I usually those aren't even 614 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,680 stiff ones. Usually those are flexible ones. 615 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,960 So I think. I think that's why it's like you 616 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,280 need a stiff enough agent to make it worth it. 617 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:41,920 So you guys are. From that, David. 618 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,800 I mean, no, I echo you completely. 619 00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,960 One that I've seen that works pretty well too. 620 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,000 Like if it doesn't have to be quite that stiff, the Cloud 621 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,680 Monster has worked for a couple people. 622 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:56,360 High stack Rockard, relatively stiff, you know, has a tiny bit 623 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:57,600 more flexibility through the forefoot. 624 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:02,400 But that has worked for someone that has a fusion through the 625 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,400 yeah. So my my thought process, so 626 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:08,840 thank you for that. So my my thought process on this 627 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,880 comes from a training perspective when it comes to 628 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:15,720 treating pathology and going how do we ensure someone can run? 629 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:22,520 No, I'm not. By the way, this is just by like 630 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,840 OCD, like finding something to mess with and. 631 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,840 I'm hearing this crinkly. Noise in the background I'm. 632 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,760 Like, man, are you like opening like a granola bar or something? 633 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,320 That does happen like I'm hungry. 634 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,680 No before. That's. 635 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,440 I know. No, it's just me, like my hands 636 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,920 trying to find something to mess with because I can't. 637 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,760 Like you two. I don't know. 638 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:45,840 I don't know. Nathan, when you're with me for. 639 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,480 No, it's not that. It's just this is just my 640 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:50,040 normal. Like just normal. 641 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:51,640 Findings. Yeah. 642 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,640 When I think a lot, my thumbs bleed because I just pick up my. 643 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,240 God, yeah, I'm doing the same thing. 644 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,600 Right, my tick. Yeah, yeah, I've got. 645 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,880 My thing Do I have a thing? Everyone's. 646 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,000 Got a thing? You're just normal. 647 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:03,920 I'm just a. Normal person? 648 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:04,800 No, that's cool. Okay. 649 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,160 Cool. Yeah, Nathan, have you ever seen 650 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:08,160 me? You know, like plastic water 651 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,320 bottles? Like the disposal. 652 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:10,320 I do that. I do this. 653 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,560 I will also, oh, you do do that. Actually, yeah, that's a thing. 654 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,280 So Oh my gosh, I'll look for, I will like, destroy a water 655 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,520 bottle. I will rip off the the paper 656 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,080 label, like, and make sure I get every little piece. 657 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,800 And then I will just destroy it and rip it at like it's 658 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,320 terrible. But we did it now, or by just 659 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:30,440 going to become a psychology session. 660 00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,240 Which? Everybody's seen me chew on my 661 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,160 freaking fingers every episode. I'm qualified, not licensed. 662 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,880 Before we move forward, there's a good chance that BJ, our audio 663 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,680 engineer, will just like take out that background noise so no 664 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:46,040 one will even know we're talking about. 665 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,160 But there was a crinkling noise for David and I for probably 5 666 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,480 minutes, and I just was like, this needs to stop. 667 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,760 Not getting so annoyed. There it is. 668 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,800 You showing it. OK, so let's, but let's go. 669 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,320 Forward we talked. About the consideration, Nate 670 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:01,840 was annoyed. Well I was annoyed. 671 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:03,800 I was like this is driving me crazy. 672 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:05,240 So you're talking about mobility. 673 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:11,640 I think another consideration for me is long term adaptations. 674 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:16,240 So when we when we use there, there's evidence when we look at 675 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,040 minimalist footwear that there is changes in muscle hypertrophy 676 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,560 and bone density when there is long term use of minimalist 677 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:30,320 footwear and the and that's all over a long period of time. 678 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,840 And I think that the consideration is that these 679 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,800 super shoes decrease the demand on certain areas of the body. 680 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,560 And so if you have decreased demand, assuming training stays 681 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,320 the same, therefore you're going to have decreased response from 682 00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:46,280 the parts of the body that have less demand. 683 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,040 And so then if you are going from these super shoes, you're 684 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,840 training them every single day and then you're like, I'm going 685 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,440 to go back and I'm just going to buy a Brooks ghost and start 686 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,840 training. And that again is your body. 687 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,440 After a long term adaptations, maybe 6 to 12 months worth of 688 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,520 adaptation, is your body going to be handled just randomly 689 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,560 switching back to the traditional trainer? 690 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,719 So I don't think that there's anything necessarily wrong, 691 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:15,040 inherently wrong with training full time and super shoes. 692 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,480 I think that the consideration needs to be, if I do that, what 693 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,920 would I need to be considerate of if I try to go out or wean 694 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:23,679 away from it? I think that you just need to be 695 00:34:23,679 --> 00:34:26,400 thoughtful about the changes that could happen long term. 696 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,320 We know that tendon modeling and regeneration happens over like 697 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,880 nine months. And so if you're training full 698 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,840 time in something, your body is going to adapt to the stimulus 699 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,000 underneath it. We don't have studies to show 700 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,000 this yet. Those sort of longitudinal 701 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,600 studies have not happened, but I think that that's one of the 702 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,520 considerations in my head. There is one that we are going 703 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,239 to talk about today. There's one we're talking about. 704 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,400 There's there are actually several out there be underway 705 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,040 right now, but we're these are like long like like 612 month 706 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,760 type studies. So it'll be a while before they 707 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,440 come out and again a lot of them are being done by footwear 708 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:04,280 companies. So we'll, they may never come 709 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,160 out, so we'll see. But yeah, David, go for it. 710 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:11,280 What do you consider training? So I think we're talking about 711 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,720 training full time like that's all you do, correct or just in. 712 00:35:14,720 --> 00:35:17,240 General, I'm just saying like, how should you use them in your 713 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:18,680 training? What I was just talking about 714 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:22,680 when I said training is if you choose to 100% of the time run 715 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:24,680 in super shoes, think about the long term. 716 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,280 Adaptations. Easy days. 717 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,000 Workouts. Race. 718 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:28,800 We're. Talking about yeah. 719 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,840 Everything. Yeah, I think that the way a lot 720 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,360 of people are using them right now is more appropriate. 721 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,320 Like for I think most of us like we're going to, we're going to 722 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,440 probably use them for workouts. So it makes sense when you're 723 00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,720 trying to run fast and then you're going to use a non super 724 00:35:41,720 --> 00:35:44,640 shoe on easy days. I think that makes sense. 725 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:46,080 You're going to, you're going to do a lot if you. 726 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,320 Like the SD Trainer and the Super Blast come into this. 727 00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,800 That's a great. Again, I think that's what's a 728 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,080 super conversation. I think technically by a lot of 729 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:57,520 the considerate even though the weight isn't there it's got some 730 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,040 of the same properties there. So I think this is less of a 731 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,360 conversation now that was then because we're seeing so many of 732 00:36:03,360 --> 00:36:06,760 the same elements that were considered super start to seep 733 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:07,840 into trainer. Exactly. 734 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:12,600 Even a classic shoe like the Vamero has a top layer of of of 735 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,200 Zoom X now. So that's why this is more 736 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,000 complicated and I think the transition Nathan's always said 737 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,240 this the best. You're the one who really 738 00:36:20,240 --> 00:36:24,040 originally said there there's not really an each type of shoe 739 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:25,840 is going to have its own benefits and risks. 740 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,640 The the thing you got to be cautious with is you are going 741 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,240 to your body will adapt if you spend all the time in this shoe 742 00:36:32,240 --> 00:36:34,920 and that's not necessarily the issue it's if you suddenly try 743 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,680 to transition to something different just like if you try 744 00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,760 to go from a normal shoe to a minimalist shoe you that's a 745 00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,360 little shock you are there is some risk factors to that so you 746 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,400 have to be if any. If you want to change back, it 747 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,200 might take some time. And how long that might take, we 748 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,080 don't know, because we know super shoes. 749 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,360 Your mechanics change the softer shoes, the plates, you start 750 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,560 loading things differently. You have forces that go into 751 00:36:57,560 --> 00:36:59,080 different areas than they were before. 752 00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:01,760 We know softer shoes like this that are more compliant like 753 00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,040 that. You tend to stiffen your 754 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:07,240 mechanics up and you may not not everyone, you may not go through 755 00:37:07,240 --> 00:37:11,480 as much joint excursion and so you may not shock absorb as well 756 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,760 as you would in something like a traditional trainer or a 757 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:16,720 minimalist you like. It's going to be different. 758 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,000 It's not bad. It's just going to be different. 759 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,040 So you have to take those things into consideration. 760 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,800 But now that we're starting to see the Super technology go into 761 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,200 daily trainers, this might not be as big of a a thing, but 762 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,840 it's, you know, from a performance standpoint, for me, 763 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,400 I would want to do my normal easy runs where speed is not a 764 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:42,240 focus in a normal shoe. And then when I need to run 765 00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:46,280 fast, use the shoe that's designated for faster stuff. 766 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,080 But that's also if you're going to do a longer race and you want 767 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:54,920 to do your longer race in this type of shoe, you need to use it 768 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,440 in your long runs to prepare your body to tolerate that. 769 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,120 So I think it's just making sure your adaptations are in the 770 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,960 right place and knowing that the more you use it, the more you 771 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:08,800 adapt to it, which can either be good or it might be something 772 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,120 that's a little challenging if you're trying to also maybe run 773 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:14,000 in something else. That's just something to keep in 774 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:16,040 mind. The other I think some of the 775 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:17,800 challenges. Yeah, David Gopher, I had talked 776 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:18,480 for long. No, you're. 777 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:19,600 Good. I completely agree. 778 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,200 I think it's kind of getting what I wanted to get AT. 779 00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:25,240 And I think we're at a revolution of technology right 780 00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:28,520 now where we have all these new materials that are becoming at 781 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,800 crazy rates of abundance now to where we can start putting them 782 00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,480 in these mass produced shoes that are in training shoes. 783 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,640 And I think the range of, let's say compliance, cushioning, 784 00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:43,400 responsiveness, yadda yadda yadda weight, I think that 785 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,560 extreme is getting larger and larger towards that end. 786 00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,240 But those shoes like you said that are this more kind of 787 00:38:51,240 --> 00:38:56,720 minimalist, natural feeling, low stack, EV, whatever, like those 788 00:38:56,720 --> 00:39:00,600 shoes still exist. And so that range has gotten 789 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,960 bigger. And so I think there just needs 790 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:06,600 to be a little bit more caution if you are changing footwear to 791 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,800 just take the proper precautions. 792 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,440 And and almost like if you had a stress fracture or something and 793 00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,880 you're waning out of a boot to a regular shoe, like you almost 794 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,520 have to take that same approach because these shoes are so 795 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,360 wildly different. It's such an extreme, yeah, I 796 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,880 think what we're cautioning. For this there are some people 797 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,800 say it's just you have to make sure that if you are changing 798 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,080 that you take the necessary steps to make a like a fluid 799 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,560 change. And I think when we'd say 800 00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,760 changing too, there's nothing wrong with incorporating both in 801 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,080 your life all the time, either what we need to if you're 802 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,120 living, actually, if you're living in one camp for a year 803 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,520 and then you can't just switch to another camp right away, you 804 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,480 got to wean your way there. But if you're just always in 805 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,720 both, then your body's going to adapt to the stresses that you 806 00:39:55,720 --> 00:39:57,480 put on it. That's just how our bodies work. 807 00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:01,480 And I think that's that's best. The problem is we also 808 00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,240 understand that not everybody has the resources to do that. 809 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:06,560 Like we are very lucky that we get such a variety. 810 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,280 But if you have some of the resources, I'm going to really 811 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,480 encourage you to get to think about having a little variety. 812 00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:15,120 Like for me, you know what I walk around in most of the day 813 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,680 is a pair of zeros, right? The minimal 0 drop shoe because 814 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:21,600 it helps me to keep. Some of the adaptations I want 815 00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,600 in terms of intrinsic foot, like foot mass, in terms of like just 816 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,720 some of that ankle range of motion, I like to maintain. 817 00:40:27,720 --> 00:40:31,040 Because I noticed when I spend a lot of time in super shoes or 818 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,760 higher sex shoes, things are a little more difficult when I try 819 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,400 to get back in a more minimal shoe. 820 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:39,520 So I like to maintain that you know I have you know some like 821 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,320 lighter shoes that I like to be able to use it or close to the 822 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:46,240 ground because it I feel like it keeps my capacity to be able to 823 00:40:46,240 --> 00:40:48,240 transition to other shoes quicker. 824 00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,920 Like I think because of that I can easily transition into ultra 825 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:56,080 shoes now because I've spent so much time in zero drop shoes 826 00:40:56,240 --> 00:40:59,240 that my Achilles and calf and plus the amount of strength work 827 00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:02,160 that I do for the calf as well, I can transition between these 828 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,040 easier. Whereas in the past when we got 829 00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:05,920 sent ultra something like that I'm like oh gosh, it's going to 830 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,160 take me like 2 to 3 weeks just to transition to getting to 831 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,240 running in them. I just have to walk in them and 832 00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:11,680 then I'm going to be even that I'm going to be sore. 833 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:15,640 So I think it's that variation which we know from an injury 834 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,440 reduction of prevention standpoint. 835 00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,680 One of the very few things is if you have a if you're training in 836 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:22,880 a variety of things, that tends to be best, I think because 837 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,520 you're adapted to a couple things rather than just being in 838 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,160 one extreme. But we also realize there are 839 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,400 some people who they can only handle that extreme and we don't 840 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,080 want you to think that we're saying, oh, you shouldn't do 841 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:36,600 this, it's bad for you. It's just you should do what 842 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,320 helps you do what you want to do. 843 00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,720 But you should also recognize that in both in all extremes 844 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,880 there are benefits and risks. In the minimal stuff, we know 845 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:49,080 there's a higher risk of Achilles type issues of stress 846 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,760 fractures, bone related injuries, things like that 847 00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,600 because that's where there's more stress. 848 00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:55,640 We're we don't have very good evidence. 849 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,000 But I will say clinically in a lot of the Super shoes you have 850 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,160 a lot more hip things, right? A lot more hamstring, a lot more 851 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,160 hip, like deep rotator stuff because a lot of the stresses 852 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,040 get placed back up to stabilizing in the hip. 853 00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,600 Now we need some research on that, and the actual research 854 00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:12,760 might come out a little different. 855 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:14,560 There was some case studies saying there's more navicular 856 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:18,280 stress fractures, which might just be because they're a little 857 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:20,720 bit less, you know, they're more compliant. 858 00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:23,600 Resilient, think it was plate design, but I think we talked to 859 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,280 our episode with Doctor Rich Willie, who I respect a lot and 860 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,800 he kind of talks about, I forget if it was in the episode or if 861 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,400 it was in a pre or post conversation. 862 00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:35,000 He talked about that study a bit and he actually thought about 863 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:39,200 writing a like precautionary rebuttal to that. 864 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:43,480 So I think that there's a lot to be taking because it was just a 865 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:48,360 case series of five people. So anyway, I think it's very 866 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,960 small. We've talked about a couple 867 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,920 considerations. Consideration 1 is what are your 868 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:57,120 mobility situations? If you're super limited, maybe 869 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,320 super shoes, these ones with these stiff rocker are going to 870 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,240 help you just be able to run without pain. 871 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:07,680 Consideration #2 is going to be this consideration of, you know, 872 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:12,600 long term adaptations and so how should you move towards one or 873 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:16,480 the other if you've been in one camp for so long exclusively? 874 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,720 I think another consideration is what's the best option, and this 875 00:43:20,720 --> 00:43:22,960 is a little bit out of our wheelhouse, but something that 876 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,560 we understand a bit is what is the best thing to train and to 877 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,640 create the the best performance later on. 878 00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:33,040 And so there was a study that just came out from Justin 879 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,720 Matisse Maddie's I I wish I knew. 880 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,560 Do you know how to pronounce his last name correctly? 881 00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,640 I thought it was Matthias, but Matthias, we appreciate it. 882 00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:44,440 Good luck by the way. He's defending his master's 883 00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,480 thesis, by the way. Very either by the time this 884 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:47,800 comes out, he will have defended already. 885 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,240 So we want to say good luck by the. 886 00:43:49,240 --> 00:43:49,720 Way. Good luck. 887 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,720 So in his study he took a very small group of people as a pilot 888 00:43:54,720 --> 00:43:59,040 study, but took one group and had them do all of their high 889 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,920 intensity training in more traditional racing flats. 890 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:06,040 It was the Nike like waffle. And then in the other group they 891 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,600 trained those high intensity workouts in the vapour fly. 892 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,400 He basically found from a running economy standpoint over 893 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,640 8 weeks. So small sample size, short 894 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,520 period of time that the and the group who trained in the vapor 895 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:22,120 flies had an immediate reduction or improvement in running 896 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,680 economy because of the shoes which we know from previous 897 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,800 studies. But the people who had the most 898 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,520 improvement in running economy over the eight weeks were the 899 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,600 two people who were able who trained in the more traditional 900 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,080 flat. The philosophy behind that is 901 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:40,000 you both do the same workout, then you're both going, then the 902 00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,080 one who's running with the shoe. That's not giving you the boost 903 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,040 they have to Their body had to work harder and their body had 904 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,720 to respond to a higher stimulus. So the question is. 905 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,840 They had more delayed Onset Muscle soreness too, which also 906 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:54,760 kind of makes sense with some of the comments that some of the 907 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:58,200 Super shoes decrease that it may just be, you know you're not 908 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,000 there may not be as much tissue damage, but that's that's an 909 00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:03,480 extrapolation. We don't know that because we 910 00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,320 didn't exactly test and do a biopsy, so. 911 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,560 Right. And so the the question there 912 00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,680 is, should you train in these super shoes for your workouts 913 00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,160 just 'cause they feel better and they give you that improvement, 914 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,880 or is it more beneficial to get a higher physiological stimulus 915 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:20,000 from a flat? So I think that there's lots of 916 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,000 debate to have here. So what are your thoughts on 917 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,600 this, David? What do you what do you think? 918 00:45:24,240 --> 00:45:26,920 I think it's a very fair question, but I think there's a 919 00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,720 common saying practice like you play. 920 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,360 I think in order to know how it's going to respond to your 921 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,520 foot on race day, you do have to wear it at some point, right? 922 00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,200 You can't just put it on. So I think there's a balance. 923 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,240 I think if you're in a building block and you're wearing these 924 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:46,640 more traditional flats and kind of building your legs up great, 925 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,240 then maybe you're 4 weeks out or something from the race that you 926 00:45:49,240 --> 00:45:52,040 really want to do well in and you start kind of fine tuning in 927 00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:54,520 the other shoe. That's probably the way that I 928 00:45:54,520 --> 00:46:00,200 would go about it, because I was thinking about this also, not 929 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:02,840 necessarily from a race performance standpoint but also 930 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,000 from a volume standpoint. And let's say if someone's 931 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,840 running over 100 miles a week, they are on their feet a crap 932 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:13,280 ton, you know, like what do you do you think that there is some 933 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,400 benefits of putting these shoes on for the sheer sake of getting 934 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,520 volume in and being able to recover from some of these 935 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,400 efforts? Because race distance is one 936 00:46:21,400 --> 00:46:23,080 thing, right? Like that could be 5K at a 937 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:26,640 marathon that like a 5K is what, 15 minutes? 938 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:30,320 It depends. Anywhere from 12 minutes to 30 939 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:31,760 minutes, depending on the person, right? 940 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:36,920 Like that's not very long in comparison to what a marathon 941 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:40,720 can put on your legs. And so I think yes, you have to 942 00:46:40,720 --> 00:46:43,000 have a balance of both between the flats and the performance 943 00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,880 shoes. But I think it also depends also 944 00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,120 on what are you training for and what are you trying to do. 945 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,800 Huge point because the study that this was done in 10 is 946 00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:54,400 cross country in college collegiate runners SO10K and 6K. 947 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,600 So it's one of those where or track and so I think that's a 948 00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:03,000 huge consideration and in this study they the people who ran in 949 00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,840 the vapor flies didn't alter their training differently than 950 00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,480 the people who ran in the flats and you know if we take off. 951 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,840 Our like, oh, that's a good. Question hat and just put on our 952 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:16,640 our hat of like getting as much workouts in as possible that 953 00:47:16,640 --> 00:47:19,640 your body can handle. If you can handle more workouts 954 00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:23,360 in a Vapor Fly versus a flat, that allows you to add to that 955 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,760 stimulus so that you could actually achieve the same 956 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,040 running economy benefits, but you'd get to train in those 957 00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,480 super shoes, get a little bit more in. 958 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:33,720 I liken that an analogy that might be. 959 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:35,640 I wish I went into more depth on this. 960 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,320 Do we know their performance metric? 961 00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:42,120 It was time, Like 8K10K. Where were they going off? 962 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:42,920 It was. Economy. 963 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,760 They did it off of the running economy testing, which is a 964 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:47,560 whole other part of the conversation because it's. 965 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,360 Right. Because if you're talking about 966 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,120 collegiate cross country, I wish I read this study more in depth, 967 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:53,800 I apologize. I'm going to just front that 968 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,400 there. A lot of these kids are racing 969 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,160 in cross country spikes. So if you're working out in 970 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,320 vapor flies and then you take 3 oz, 2-3 oz off your shoe and 971 00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,280 then you go. If you're used to racing out in 972 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:09,400 flats and you go to spikes on grass, you're probably going to 973 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,600 translate a little bit easier than someone who's working on 974 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,480 vapor flies and translating down to something that's a little bit 975 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,800 more flexible and a little bit lower to the ground and more 976 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:18,640 aggressive from a geometry standpoint. 977 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:20,920 So it depends on where you are too. 978 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,880 On the West Coast, some of the courses aren't all grass and 979 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:27,760 like so I it just depends on location what the course looks 980 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,240 like. I think cross country is like 981 00:48:30,240 --> 00:48:33,120 that is a very hard thing to test because cross country looks 982 00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,560 different wherever you are across this country. 983 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:39,280 I I will say on the West Coast, in on the West Coast you will go 984 00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,440 to cross country. I I see almost in high school. 985 00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,000 Almost nobody's wearing flats or spikes anymore. 986 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,640 It's like all vapor flies, which I would you. 987 00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:50,440 Could make a case for. Computers. 988 00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,160 I haven't seen the collegiate. Small collegiate cross country 989 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,200 courses. People are mostly wearing vapor 990 00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,640 flies on the West. Can I finish my quick thought 991 00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,880 And then we'll So when we were thinking about like that idea of 992 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,840 if you can tolerate more and you're having less fatigue 993 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,400 through those muscles, you can maybe add some volume. 994 00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,280 Another way to think about that, which is more obvious is through 995 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:14,280 like a altar G treadmill or through like a bungee system 996 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,320 like lever. Where I could, if I put the 997 00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,280 lever on me on my treadmill, which is like a bungee system 998 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,160 which offloads you, I could run six minute miles for six miles 999 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,120 and it would obviously be easier for me to do because I'm getting 1000 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,600 a performance benefit of being able to do that on the 1001 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,760 treadmill. But I don't get the response in 1002 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,920 my body. So to be able to get the same 1003 00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,760 physiological response you have to do over speed training when 1004 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,000 you're doing offloaded running, which means you're running at 1005 00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:44,000 like 15 miles an hour for to to get the like. 1006 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:46,880 Literally they've done studies on over speed training with like 1007 00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,880 offloaded stuff. In the same way, if you want to 1008 00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:53,320 get the same like physiological running economy improvement 1009 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:56,480 while rearing super shoes from this study suggest that you're 1010 00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,920 going to have to train harder. You just have to train harder 1011 00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:00,720 and the shoes allow you to do that. 1012 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,640 And so you just got to match from a strictly performance, you 1013 00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,360 just got to match your intensity with what your shoes are 1014 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,640 allowing you to do. I will. 1015 00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:12,320 I will say that since a lot of these have become more popular, 1016 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,720 one of the things that I because of the time limitations that I 1017 00:50:15,720 --> 00:50:17,800 have at the moment with the amount of work I've got with a 1018 00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,600 little one that I've been doing more double workouts. 1019 00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,080 So people talk about double thresholds. 1020 00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,000 I'm like, I've been doing those for a bit. 1021 00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,280 I don't, I would have never been able to do that in traditional 1022 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:29,600 flats. Traditional chainers, like I 1023 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,720 would have been wrecked, especially with the length of 1024 00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:33,240 some of the workouts that I used to do. 1025 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,720 But I don't do that. So like, I'll do a three, four 1026 00:50:36,720 --> 00:50:38,880 mile tempo in the morning now and then a three, four mile 1027 00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:41,520 tempo in the evening and I can get away with that. 1028 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:43,720 And so yeah, there might be more benefits. 1029 00:50:43,720 --> 00:50:45,360 I'm seeing some pretty cool improvements. 1030 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:46,520 How long that takes, I don't know. 1031 00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:49,560 But the the other thing I will say is David made a good point 1032 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,040 is you got to, you got to prep your body eventually for what 1033 00:50:52,040 --> 00:50:53,440 you're going to be using and racing it. 1034 00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:56,280 That's why, you know, we tell it like I've told people, hey, if 1035 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,520 you're going to go run in the Vapor Fly for your marathon, you 1036 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,040 better make sure you can make it through a long run with the 1037 00:51:02,040 --> 00:51:03,320 Vapor Fly. Because just because you can 1038 00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:05,080 make it through 10 miles doesn't mean you can make it through 1039 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:10,040 26.2. So you have to learn to can I 1040 00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:12,840 handle this shoe for this long And then you also have to adapt 1041 00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,360 to it. It's it's not going to magically 1042 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,760 give you speed. You have to learn to use these 1043 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:18,680 tools. The interesting part about the 1044 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:20,680 study and hopefully I remember this correctly and this is 1 1045 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:23,960 just a private conversation with Justin, was that a lot of the 1046 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,920 runners who use the vapor flies had bigger because they I think 1047 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:29,280 they crossed it over quickly. Am I? 1048 00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:30,560 I'm thinking about a different study. 1049 00:51:30,560 --> 00:51:34,560 He did that maybe he didn't jerk, but did a different study 1050 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:38,880 where they were looking at like, so they did this stuff. 1051 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:45,520 And then they had both groups where both the flat situation as 1052 00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:48,040 well as the Vapor Fly and the groups that had trained in the 1053 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,440 Vapor Fly had a greater response and improvement over time to the 1054 00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:55,160 Vapor Fly compared to the ones that weren't training in it, 1055 00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,080 'cause they they got used to it. So you improve more in the thing 1056 00:51:58,080 --> 00:52:01,120 that you train in. However, the group that 1057 00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:04,720 obviously the groups in the flat had more of a response to that 1058 00:52:04,720 --> 00:52:08,280 and an overall greater response. But you asked a great question, 1059 00:52:08,440 --> 00:52:11,320 were they really doing the same tolerable volume and getting 1060 00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:12,560 those stimulus? I don't know. 1061 00:52:12,720 --> 00:52:15,600 This is a study with like, what, 888 subjects? 1062 00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:19,240 It's fairly small, more more pilot ish, but it does give some 1063 00:52:19,240 --> 00:52:22,920 interesting thoughts to go. You know, you can do more, but 1064 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,320 you might have some changes in some of the stuff 'cause they 1065 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,840 also looked at like kind of jump height and things like that, 1066 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,640 kind of jump at adaptation of the ones who use the flats 1067 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,120 obviously had better improvement because you're actively having 1068 00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:36,520 to use more of that that those mechanics. 1069 00:52:36,520 --> 00:52:39,040 You're not going to have to do that as much in a super shoe. 1070 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,320 So it's just things to think about. 1071 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,520 And I think the studies that you know the main aims of the study 1072 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,520 were to look at a lot of different like longer term 1073 00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,960 changes and I think there weren't a lot of changes seen in 1074 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,160 like some of the biomechanical and non running economy parts. 1075 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,320 But I just think that part of it, because eight weeks might 1076 00:52:56,320 --> 00:52:58,920 not be long enough as we know it takes a lot longer for tissues 1077 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:00,840 to adapt. So you might not see those 1078 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,720 things right away, but it's fun to see a pilot study like this 1079 00:53:03,720 --> 00:53:07,680 come out and just kind of kind of go that way. 1080 00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:13,000 So what we're going to do, we have, we have definitely hit a 1081 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,000 lot of stuff here, but there are way more considerations. 1082 00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:18,400 So if you're thinking in your head, what what about this, what 1083 00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:19,640 about that? What about this because there 1084 00:53:19,640 --> 00:53:23,040 are 1,000,000 what ifs when it comes to how should we utilize 1085 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:27,240 super shoes, I would say at the just to kind of kind of move us 1086 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:29,400 forward. One of the things is most people 1087 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:34,600 are probably using this in a way where you don't have $1,000,000 1088 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,440 expendable income to just keep replacing super shoes. 1089 00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,640 Probably the the wisest way to use a super shoe is to use it 1090 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,640 judiciously. Use it to acclimate to its use 1091 00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:46,920 for the distance that you're going to use it for, and 1092 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:50,560 otherwise do all of your other training and and daily trainers. 1093 00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:52,960 And if you have so then you'd have two pairs of shoes, your 1094 00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:56,200 daily kind of do it all trainer and then your your race shoe 1095 00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:59,760 that you use for one long run or one workout just to get used to 1096 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,560 it during your training block. Or if you have a couple 1097 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,080 different options, then you could have kind of rotate 1098 00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:10,040 between those other two but save that very expensive shoe for 1099 00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,440 just kind of those main workouts. 1100 00:54:13,240 --> 00:54:17,760 So what we're going to do is push ourselves into the final 1101 00:54:17,760 --> 00:54:21,160 part of this conversation, which is talking about calf strains. 1102 00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:26,480 And so there we've just gotten a lot of questions about different 1103 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,920 types of calf strains. What should you do and how 1104 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,120 should you manage calf strains? And it's honestly a pretty 1105 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:36,520 tricky thing because for it's tricky for us to talk about here 1106 00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,280 because there are a lot of things anatomically that could 1107 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,520 be going on that could be both leading to your calf strain and 1108 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,680 the actual structure. That's the problem when it comes 1109 00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:47,960 to a calf strain. So what we're going to do for 1110 00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,840 this final segment of the episode is kind of give you a 1111 00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:54,440 breakdown of the anatomy of the calf, what sort of structures 1112 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:56,840 are there and what can feel like a calf strain? 1113 00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,360 And just make sure that those are in your consideration. 1114 00:54:59,480 --> 00:55:01,760 And then just give some thoughts on general timeline. 1115 00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:04,840 But ultimately, our recommendation as always is if 1116 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,640 you're having some sort of pain or injury that's preventing you 1117 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:12,680 from doing your running, find a good running PT and have them 1118 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:18,840 kind of be be part of, be part of your care and help you figure 1119 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,480 out what's going on. Before we jump into this, we 1120 00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:25,480 have something pretty exciting actually attached to this 1121 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,200 episode. Our friends at Running Warehouse 1122 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:33,080 are have given us eight $100.00 gift cards to give away. 1123 00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,720 So for the next 8 episodes we are going to be giving away 1124 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,240 $100.00 gift card from Running Warehouse. 1125 00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:43,600 And So what you need to do to enter that giveaway is to go 1126 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:49,440 over to after you subscribe. If you're on podcast and or if 1127 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,520 you're on YouTube and you haven't subscribed yet, hit the 1128 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,320 subscribe button and leave a review. 1129 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:58,920 After you've done that, jump over to our our YouTube page and 1130 00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:01,840 comment that you want to enter the giveaway and answer the 1131 00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,200 subjective. So if you are a faithful 1132 00:56:04,200 --> 00:56:07,320 listener, you've heard this special announcement about the 1133 00:56:07,320 --> 00:56:10,520 $100.00 gift card giveaway from Running Warehouse and you can 1134 00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:13,280 enter by making sure you're following and subscribed and 1135 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:14,920 you've left a review for the podcast. 1136 00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:18,400 But then go over to YouTube and comment on the video and that 1137 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,120 will enter you into the giveaway. 1138 00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:24,000 So if you've made it this far in the episode, congratulations, 1139 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,480 you heard that announcement. All right, Matt, now I'm going 1140 00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,320 to kick it to you. We're talking about calf 1141 00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:30,920 strains. Give us an overview of the 1142 00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,480 anatomy of the calf and some different structures that can be 1143 00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,440 involved with creating calf pain. 1144 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:37,600 And we're not talking about Achilles strains. 1145 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,800 We're talking about the calf specifically. 1146 00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:44,640 Calf so the calf is primarily it's obviously one of the major 1147 00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,240 and it's actually one of the most important muscles for 1148 00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,880 running in terms of both propulsion as well as support 1149 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,040 meaning when you are landing on the ground when your foot's on 1150 00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,800 the ground that is a primary muscle that's holding you up and 1151 00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,840 supporting you from collapsing specifically your ankle. 1152 00:56:59,000 --> 00:57:01,640 It's also most it's really important for helping generate 1153 00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,480 some of the propulsive forces that move you forwards as that 1154 00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:07,920 thing gets under and behind you. So it's the very important 1155 00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:11,120 muscle primary muscle, right, for for propulsion and moving 1156 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:14,480 forwards. OK now there are three primary 1157 00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,920 muscles that make up this. OK, we're going to there's some 1158 00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:21,360 debate not everybody has some one of the extra ones in there, 1159 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:25,400 but it's split up into the gastrocnemius which has two 1160 00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:27,480 different heads. OK That's usually when you see 1161 00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,600 some of the the people with the really bulked up calf muscle and 1162 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,840 you see like the two separate parts of the very, very top. 1163 00:57:33,120 --> 00:57:36,200 That's the gastrocnemius, right. What's and it's what's very 1164 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,400 unique about that is that is one of the few calf muscles that 1165 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,240 actually also crosses the E joint. 1166 00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:43,240 So that will come into play in just a second. 1167 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:47,360 OK Behind that you have one of the deeper, more kind of 1168 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:50,240 endurance based calf muscles, which is the soleus. 1169 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,280 This is one of the larger ones. It runs from the kind of the top 1170 00:57:53,320 --> 00:57:56,720 of the tibia and goes all the way down to the Achilles. 1171 00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,880 Just the gastrocnemius also goes to the tibia, but this sits a 1172 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:03,360 little farther back there. There is also another one called 1173 00:58:03,360 --> 00:58:07,280 your plantaris which is a small string like muscle that sits on 1174 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:09,680 top of all these. Some people have it, some people 1175 00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:11,320 don't. The reason I bring this up is I 1176 00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,680 actually have seen some people with plantaris tears who thought 1177 00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,800 this was a a a calf issue. Technically it is, but couldn't 1178 00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,560 figure out what was going on and I was honestly lost early in my 1179 00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:25,200 career until I was like that's weird, like I didn't take the 1180 00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,480 time to palpate this correctly. That's something that needs to 1181 00:58:27,480 --> 00:58:29,520 get checked out. Sure enough, ultra one 1182 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:32,400 diagnostic ultrasound later like Oh yeah, it's a plantaris tear. 1183 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:37,880 So those are the three primary muscles involved with calf 1184 00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,800 strains. Some other tissues that you 1185 00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,240 might need to think about. You do have a nerve couple 1186 00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,840 nerves 1A primary one called your serial nerve that runs 1187 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:50,400 right through this area. Not uncommon for this to seem 1188 00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:54,520 like muscle strain and actually be nerve related issue as well. 1189 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,760 The posterior tibialis and a couple of your other toe flexors 1190 00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,880 also sit even deeper to the soleus and can also be things 1191 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:06,240 that get irritated and can also look like calf strains. 1192 00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,200 So just you got your calf. But no, I don't always say this 1193 00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:11,520 a lot. My students can make fun of me. 1194 00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:13,720 But this this area is high density real estate. 1195 00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:17,320 There's a lot of stuff in that area, which is why sometimes if 1196 00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:20,120 it's recurrent, it may be a good idea to seek out some 1197 00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,160 professional help to help you dive a little deeper. 1198 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:24,640 But those are the primary things in that area, yeah. 1199 00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,880 Yeah, I think. I think that was anything. 1200 00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:31,280 No, I think, I think that hits a lot of the anatomy. 1201 00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:34,480 There's also the tibial nerve, which is a little bit bigger and 1202 00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,600 comes down. So that'd be the other nerve, 1203 00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:40,240 the serial nerve. The serial nerve can have a 1204 00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:43,200 referral of symptoms more to the outside or lateral side of the 1205 00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:46,040 foot, whereas the tibial nerve will come more down to the arch 1206 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:47,720 of the foot. If you're getting like referred 1207 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:52,560 symptoms from those nerves, what I would say from an etiology 1208 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,240 perspective or like when people start to like tell me their 1209 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,880 stories about how this pain started and what it feels like. 1210 00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,600 I think often times part of people's stories when it comes 1211 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:05,600 to a more extreme calf strain that's keeping them from 1212 01:00:05,600 --> 01:00:07,960 running. Is they first said, I don't know 1213 01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,560 for like the fat past year or six months or a couple years, I 1214 01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,840 felt like my calves had just been so tight. 1215 01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:16,640 And they just say that like this tightness in my calves, it was 1216 01:00:16,640 --> 01:00:18,600 tight, it was tight and then it just started getting worse and 1217 01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,000 worse until it was painful and then sharp and I couldn't run on 1218 01:00:21,000 --> 01:00:23,640 it. And we've talked about this with 1219 01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,920 a number of different muscles and injuries before. 1220 01:00:27,120 --> 01:00:30,480 But when you feel like you have tightness in a muscle, it's 1221 01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:33,160 possible that it's truly tight. But a lot of times when you 1222 01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:36,920 experience tightness sensations as a runner, it's actually due 1223 01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,920 to fatigue and potentially some early starts of micro tearing in 1224 01:00:40,920 --> 01:00:43,920 that muscle. And so it's really important to 1225 01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:46,760 distinguish whether you have true tightness or if your 1226 01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:51,960 tightness sensation is due to fatigue or due to some sort of 1227 01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,720 early micro tears. And so the the important 1228 01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:59,280 difference there is if it is a lack of endurance of that muscle 1229 01:00:59,280 --> 01:01:02,520 or power generation or weakness that's leading to this fatigue. 1230 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,960 The treatment strategy is to strengthen and create muscle 1231 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:08,880 endurance and muscle power. Whereas if it's truly a tight 1232 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:11,080 muscle, your treatment would be to stretch. 1233 01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:14,600 So understanding which one it is brings you in two totally 1234 01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:18,320 different directions at home. An easy way that you could test 1235 01:01:18,320 --> 01:01:21,960 this is to. If you want to test muscle 1236 01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,840 endurance, you can put on a metronome to 60 beats per 1237 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:27,920 second, stand on one foot, and see how many you can do to the 1238 01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:29,240 beat of the metronome. So if it's. 1239 01:01:31,040 --> 01:01:36,200 Heel raises. You go up, down, up, down and do 1240 01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:39,240 it as many times as you can tell you are completely fatigued 1241 01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:41,320 without using your hands to support you and just see if 1242 01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:42,800 there's a big difference side to side. 1243 01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,880 I would say you need to get at least 25 if not more than 30 as 1244 01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,320 an endurance runner. This the thing you could do to 1245 01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:54,360 test the length of those muscles and of your ankle joint would be 1246 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:57,880 to do what I call a standing lunge test and so you can go 1247 01:01:57,880 --> 01:02:00,760 close to a wall. Put your heel down flat on the 1248 01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:02,960 floor and bring your knee all the way to the wall. 1249 01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:04,880 If you can touch your knee to the wall with your heel staying 1250 01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:06,760 down. Slide your toes back until that 1251 01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,360 heel starts to come up before your knee touches the wall. 1252 01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,200 Then measure the distance between your toe and the wall. 1253 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:15,520 You should be able to get about 9 centimeters away, so that 1254 01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,000 could help you understand. Is this due to some sort of 1255 01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,960 limitation in my ankle joint, potentially in the calf or is 1256 01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:23,840 this due to some sort of weakness? 1257 01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,000 What were you going to say, Matt? 1258 01:02:25,640 --> 01:02:28,200 Say for the reliability with the heel raise test. 1259 01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,920 By the way, for endurance it is very important that you maintain 1260 01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,520 the same height. Technically the test is over if 1261 01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,520 you can no longer achieve the same height. 1262 01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,480 So just a heads up because a lot of people do these little like 1263 01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:41,440 ankle pumps at the end like, no, you're done. 1264 01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:45,320 Like that's it. Like full range of motion. 1265 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:47,960 I forgot what the there's a standard of like certain amount. 1266 01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,800 50% of your Max height. What I do clinically is I put 1267 01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,760 them up on a box and I bring a tape measure down, measure their 1268 01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:56,520 Max height and then I wait till they can't reach 50% of that 1269 01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,760 height and then I terminate the test at home. 1270 01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,320 It's just hard to do that. So you just got to you got to be 1271 01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,640 honest with yourself and notice that you're dropping down. 1272 01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:08,800 So it's it's or you could have your, you know, friend or spouse 1273 01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,040 or whatever, you know, set it up for you. 1274 01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:12,440 It's not, it's not super difficult. 1275 01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,200 So, David, do you have any thoughts on kind of what people 1276 01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:19,640 express when they're feeling calf strains or calf pain and 1277 01:03:19,640 --> 01:03:24,080 things that you consider? Yeah, I I mean, I think you guys 1278 01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,040 hit it pretty well. Taking a look at how it started, 1279 01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:33,040 how long it's been there, what flares it up, sometimes it's 1280 01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:36,520 like, oh, like all my daily mileage is fine, my volume is 1281 01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,080 fine, but for some reason, every time I go to the track, it 1282 01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:40,520 hurts. Well, now we might have a power 1283 01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,000 issue. Maybe you don't have enough 1284 01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,040 eccentric control to actually pop off of the foot and ankle. 1285 01:03:45,480 --> 01:03:48,000 I think just like you said earlier, just listening to 1286 01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,880 what's causing it, you know, is it a length issue? 1287 01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:52,880 Is it a power issue? Is it an endurance issue? 1288 01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,880 Because runners, even though we consider this as an endurance 1289 01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,400 sport there it's so multifaceted. 1290 01:03:59,920 --> 01:04:02,920 I mean the amount of power that goes into each step, we we kind 1291 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,160 of take that for granted. I mean it's a bunch of single 1292 01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:07,280 leg jumps over and over and over again. 1293 01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:09,720 You know it's like a lot of times people make the analogy of 1294 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,160 controlled falling and it's like no one really likes to fall, 1295 01:04:12,160 --> 01:04:13,720 right? Like so it's like you're having 1296 01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:16,000 to just constantly catch yourself and push off. 1297 01:04:17,160 --> 01:04:21,680 So I think just getting a proper history and and like you said, 1298 01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:23,720 you use the words being honest with yourself. 1299 01:04:23,720 --> 01:04:26,600 I think a lot of times people intuitively kind of know 1300 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,720 sometimes even the ones that are the most confused, they'll be 1301 01:04:29,720 --> 01:04:32,920 like, I don't know, it just feels like if I do this, this 1302 01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,680 might make it feel better. Or like every time I do this, it 1303 01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,880 just seems like it doesn't. It gets angry, you know? 1304 01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:42,080 And so it's like, oh, if I run longer than an hour, OK, maybe 1305 01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,480 we have an endurance issue. Maybe, like, you know, I think a 1306 01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,440 lot of times in the storytelling of what the symptoms are is 1307 01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,720 where we can kind of see what the issue is even before even 1308 01:04:51,720 --> 01:04:53,480 touching the person and evaluating. 1309 01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,920 So I think just a lot of honesty with the history and what's 1310 01:04:57,920 --> 01:04:59,880 going on. And I think a lot of times 1311 01:04:59,880 --> 01:05:02,640 people kind of need to put their pride aside because I think a 1312 01:05:02,640 --> 01:05:04,600 lot of people are like, well, I run all the time. 1313 01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:06,360 Of course, my calves are strong. And it's like, that's not 1314 01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:09,800 necessarily the case, you know, more often than not that's not 1315 01:05:09,800 --> 01:05:12,120 the case. And so that goes through the 1316 01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:13,400 whole leg. They're like, I run all the 1317 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:14,480 time. My legs are strong. 1318 01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,520 Like, why? Why would I need to do any 1319 01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,720 strength training? It's like that's like no. 1320 01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:24,320 Not how it works. So I think that's that's it, 1321 01:05:24,320 --> 01:05:25,520 yeah. Just having an honest 1322 01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:28,040 conversation with yourself and really listening to what you're 1323 01:05:28,040 --> 01:05:30,120 feeling. Because it's like if you notice 1324 01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:33,120 a pattern to what's happening, the chances are that pattern is 1325 01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:35,680 telling a story. I will say I know I probably 1326 01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,320 said this 1000 times, but just because you run does not mean 1327 01:05:38,320 --> 01:05:41,400 you are strong or have power. Running is. 1328 01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,720 Yes, you do need to have a certain amount to run, but it 1329 01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:46,960 doesn't necessarily build more of that. 1330 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,000 If you want to build more of that, you have to do things 1331 01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,040 specific to those activities. So the concept called the the 1332 01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:53,560 specificity of training principle. 1333 01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:57,120 But yeah. The other consideration with 1334 01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:01,880 calf strains is how long can I expect this to take to get 1335 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,320 better? And honestly, a big part of 1336 01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,040 that's going to depend on the severity of the strain and which 1337 01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:11,360 structure is involved. I would say anecdotally, the 1338 01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:14,440 most finicky ones have been soleus strains. 1339 01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,320 If somebody has a soleus strain, a lot of times it ends up 1340 01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,400 hurting with walking too, because it's just such a 1341 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:21,640 foundational muscle for postural control. 1342 01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:25,640 And so it just, it does so much work to control the advancement 1343 01:06:25,640 --> 01:06:27,680 of your your shin bone as you're walking. 1344 01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:29,640 And then obviously as you're running it's even higher. 1345 01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:34,520 It's just constantly working. And so in those cases, a lot of 1346 01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:38,480 times these are strains that take a little bit more of a 1347 01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:41,680 conservative approach. You might need more time off 1348 01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:45,280 with this than you do with a lot of other types of even Achilles, 1349 01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:47,000 tendinopathy, plantar, fascia, pain. 1350 01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:50,560 Sometimes these need a little bit more time of offloading and 1351 01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,200 allowing it to recover than others. 1352 01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:54,640 I would say the longest that I've seen people. 1353 01:06:54,680 --> 01:07:01,440 No, not the longest to get through the early healing phase 1354 01:07:01,440 --> 01:07:05,000 when you have like one that's hurting while walking is 1355 01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:08,880 criterion and time based. A lot of times the time 1356 01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:11,680 component is going to be like one to three weeks off 1357 01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:15,120 completely of running. And then the criterion is that 1358 01:07:15,200 --> 01:07:19,560 no pain with with walking and pretty much no pain with 1359 01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,080 running. And so and when I say pretty 1360 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:24,880 much no pain, I would say that when you're going back, the pain 1361 01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:27,840 during and after and the day after should be no more than a 1362 01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:32,360 dull ache, maybe like a three or two out of 10, even lower than I 1363 01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,560 give people for Achilles tendinopathy or patellar 1364 01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:37,520 tendinopathy. I give them a little more leeway 1365 01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:42,040 when it comes to these muscle issues, let that they heal and 1366 01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:43,880 then start to load it appropriately. 1367 01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,040 So that's kind of how I approach that. 1368 01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:50,960 It's going to take time and it's easier to set them back because 1369 01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:54,400 if you just do one thing too fast and that speed is a huge 1370 01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:58,720 thing, but if you do one thing too fast, it can just reset the 1371 01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:01,640 process a lot easier than some other conditions. 1372 01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:04,160 But anything for y'all that you want to add to that? 1373 01:08:05,920 --> 01:08:08,800 Yeah, the soleus is definitely challenging because it's such an 1374 01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:11,200 important running muscle and walking muscle. 1375 01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:12,720 Like they've looked at a lot of studies. 1376 01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,280 One of the things that as you become more experienced as a 1377 01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:18,479 runner, one of the things that actually changes most is your 1378 01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,279 soleus because you utilize it so much. 1379 01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:24,160 It's not only during like endurance running, but also 1380 01:08:24,200 --> 01:08:26,399 during walking. So it's incredibly important and 1381 01:08:26,399 --> 01:08:30,160 like Nathan said, what the goal depending on the severity, the 1382 01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:33,680 goal is to get that tissue ready to start rehabbing and if you 1383 01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,520 keep irritating it just because the people think oh I have this 1384 01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,640 natural healing time like this just heal in eight weeks you can 1385 01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,120 reset that right. You can you can re injure things 1386 01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,720 and the solely is because you use it so much. 1387 01:08:45,359 --> 01:08:49,040 It's so important you sometimes to make sure you're working with 1388 01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,520 your healthcare professional on this, but sometimes you just got 1389 01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,120 to be a little extra conservative because the more 1390 01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:55,760 you use something the more care you got to take when you start 1391 01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:57,880 with it. As to when you return to that 1392 01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:00,399 activity and not only when you return to that activity, 1393 01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:03,960 wouldn't you return to doing it quote, UN quote normally right 1394 01:09:04,279 --> 01:09:07,160 so that just because of the capacity that it needs? 1395 01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:10,720 Yeah, it's a pretty pretty highly involved muscle. 1396 01:09:10,880 --> 01:09:13,880 It's a highly involved muscle. I will also say one of the the 1397 01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:16,720 things clinically I've noticed because I definitely in early my 1398 01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:19,920 career struggled with these because if they like Nathan 1399 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,040 David said, they're so important they sometimes you need a more 1400 01:09:23,040 --> 01:09:25,120 conservative approach pet with the more extreme ones. 1401 01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:29,279 Sometimes you know you pull it and it's it's a very minor minor 1402 01:09:29,279 --> 01:09:30,479 strain. It's like, all right you know 1403 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,840 let's just ease into this baby, avoid some speed work and then 1404 01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,279 you're fine, right. More severe cases we start 1405 01:09:35,279 --> 01:09:37,520 thinking about hey, is there like a tear there that needs to 1406 01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:40,560 heal some more serious so might have to take more time off. 1407 01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,680 I will say one of the things that I struggle with most is a 1408 01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,920 lot of the runners that got back to running at normal paces. 1409 01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:50,399 And like I can't push past and David mentioned this, I can't do 1410 01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:52,520 my speed work. Like I keep trying and that's 1411 01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:54,760 where I irritate it. And one of the things I will say 1412 01:09:54,760 --> 01:09:57,800 is running. Like I said it does. 1413 01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,040 Running by itself does not build higher levels of strength and 1414 01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:04,680 power and So what I had to learn is to really make sure people 1415 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,720 had covered all the bases. It's you got to be when your 1416 01:10:07,720 --> 01:10:11,040 tissues ready, not early, but when it's ready. 1417 01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,600 If you want to get back to speed work, you got to start thinking 1418 01:10:13,600 --> 01:10:17,240 about some single leg hopping. Some like adding additional 1419 01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,200 weight especially to make sure you've improved the capacity, 1420 01:10:20,440 --> 01:10:24,640 but doing things that require true power, which power is the 1421 01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,040 force and how quickly you're generating that force. 1422 01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:31,720 So force over time. So just normal speed stuff may 1423 01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:34,480 not be enough to get your body ready for when you want to run 1424 01:10:34,480 --> 01:10:37,280 quicker on the track. And so if that's something you 1425 01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,800 want and you're struggling to get that last little bit, you 1426 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:43,160 might need to think about some things like hopping or things in 1427 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,400 that nature, or even some you know you can still use strides 1428 01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:50,320 if you slowly prep that. That can also be an exercise in 1429 01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:54,080 and of itself, but you have to prepare if you want to run 1430 01:10:54,080 --> 01:10:58,200 faster, you have to make sure your body has the capacity to do 1431 01:10:58,200 --> 01:11:00,440 what you're asking of it. And that's just a piece that I 1432 01:11:00,440 --> 01:11:03,200 was missing as a clinician to like, oh, we need to work on 1433 01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:04,760 this. So you got to work on power. 1434 01:11:05,040 --> 01:11:08,840 You got to work on power. Well, thank you everybody for 1435 01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,080 sticking with us. Like I said, we had a very jam 1436 01:11:11,080 --> 01:11:15,080 packed show talking about I guess apparel for 10 minutes. 1437 01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:17,880 Still sorry about that. But then moving into talking 1438 01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:20,400 about some new super shoes coming out are some of the 1439 01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:24,520 considerations of many more to talk about what it means to 1440 01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:28,840 train well in super shoes and then talking a bit about calf 1441 01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,320 injuries and calf strains and some of the considerations for 1442 01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:33,720 rehab. These are ones. 1443 01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:37,840 I really think having a really running specific healthcare 1444 01:11:37,840 --> 01:11:40,600 provider involved in your care is really helpful. 1445 01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:44,400 Run care.org if you haven't heard about it, they have a list 1446 01:11:44,400 --> 01:11:48,000 of providers that they've vetted who work with runners regularly, 1447 01:11:48,000 --> 01:11:50,000 so you can check out their map on their website. 1448 01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:53,920 But otherwise, yeah, we just hope that if you are having any 1449 01:11:53,920 --> 01:11:56,640 issues with paying that you can find somebody that you can trust 1450 01:11:56,640 --> 01:11:59,520 and that understands running. It's a real gift to have that 1451 01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:01,800 person in your corner when things come up. 1452 01:12:01,800 --> 01:12:04,040 So thank you all for following along with us. 1453 01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:06,960 Check out everything that we've got going on on on our website, 1454 01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:10,240 on Instagram, on YouTube, all that stuff. 1455 01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:12,880 You can just search us at Docs of Running and we'll talk to you 1456 01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:13,360 all next time.