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Hey everyone, and welcome to the
Doctors are Running podcast 

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where we, a group of doctors of 
physical therapy, talk about the

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art and the science of the 
things we put on our feet today.

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I am happy to be joined by 
Doctor Myers and we are going to

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be doing one of our special 
episodes, which in its essence 

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is literally just arguing over 
like our disagreements on shoes,

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but in a more scientific way is 
called unpacking our 

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disagreements. 
And it's where the two of us are

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going to go through one or 
potentially 2 shoes. 

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Let's to see how much time we 
have on and two, one or two 

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shoes specifically that we very 
much disagree on and the reason 

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we actually want to bring this 
out because a, we have these 

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internal discussions, but we 
also want you to understand that

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we don't always experience the 
same thing in shoes. 

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That's why we try to have as 
many reviewers as possible on 

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every review because different 
people are going to respond 

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differently to the things that 
you put on your feet. 

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And we want you to actually be 
not only aware of that, but use 

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that help you identify. 
Oh, you know, I tend to identify

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with this reviewer. 
Maybe this is the one that my 

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mechanics and my experiences 
might be similar to because at 

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the end of the day, we want you 
to be, We're not trying to sell 

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you something. 
We want you to get better 

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identifying what's going to work
for you. 

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And that's part of this 
educational thing and why we 

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continue to do this. 
But Andrea, is there anything 

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else you would add to that about
like other than the fact that we

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just like bickering and and 
disagreeing, what else would you

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add as thoughts to help people 
understand why we're doing this?

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Well, yes, of course the 
opportunity for a good argument 

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is, you know, always a good one.
But to echo your point, I think 

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it's easy to like read shoe 
review sites or look at YouTube 

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and think, OK, this reviewer 
didn't like this shoe so I 

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shouldn't even think about it. 
Or this reviewer loved this 

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shoe, they got their marathon PR
in it. 

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I should buy that one. 
And people are different. 

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Just because a shoe works for 
one person doesn't mean it's 

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going to work well for everyone.
We all have vastly different bio

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mechanics. 
We've got different heights, 

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weights, foot size, everything. 
So like Matt said, if you find 

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yourself consistently agreeing 
with one of us on shoes, then 

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our that person's opinion might 
be a little more applicable to 

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you than another person's. 
And Matt and I tend to disagree 

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on shoes, not on all shoes, but 
on a lot, because he and I run 

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very differently. 
And there's one. 

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There's nothing wrong with 
running differently. 

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There's no one right way to run.
Everybody has a different 

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movement pattern, so yeah, I'm 
excited to dive into our most 

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recent disagreement and 
hopefully everyone can learn a 

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few things. 
Yep. 

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And that's the whole reason is 
again, we want you to be able to

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see this and how we navigate 
this and try to figure out maybe

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why is the more fun thing, which
we can't always identify the 

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exact answer. 
And we've actually, you know, 

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fortunately or unfortunately 
learned that. 

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And that, you know, some of the 
biomechanical models of running 

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shoes and footwear don't always 
match the experiences that 

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people have. 
Like there's certain shoes where

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you'd think that it would work 
for me great and maybe not as 

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great for Andrea, but then it's 
been the exact opposite. 

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And that's where we talk about 
things like comfort. 

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And the reason we, again, also 
do this is you kind of have to 

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learn what she's worked for you 
and what don't. 

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That's why, you know, I was 
talking about this. 

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I gave my running and footwear 
lecturer yesterday as of what is

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it the 27th of February to my 
George Fox students where I 

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teach. 
And I do this joke every single 

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time, which I normally it gets 
some laughs. 

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This this group of second years 
does not laugh at anything. 

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So I bombed as usual, like I 
usually do with them where I 

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talk about the run cat scale and
I jokingly say, oh, the run cat 

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scale is where you put a cat on 
the treadmill and then it would 

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however it runs if it deviates 
toward 1 shoe, that's the shoe 

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you pick, which is a joke. 
And normally people laugh, but 

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not everybody laughs. 
And yeah, so. 

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What's up with your second 
years, Matt? 

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I know, I mean also what's up 
with my jokes? 

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They clearly. 
Be better, that's true. 

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That's the key, but the run cast
scale stands for actually stands

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for the running comfort 
assessment tool came out of some

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brilliant minds. 
Bishop at all in Australia where

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they really discovered out of 
like it feels like 100 and 

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something different factors in 
footwear. 

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They brought it down to five 
really important things. 

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It's key because we realized 
that comfort is actually has a 

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greater predictor of shoe 
success than a lot of the 

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mechanical variables. 
And that's not like, oh, you put

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your foot in it, it's super 
soft, it is plushed or whatever.

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It's, does it feel just right 
for you and I? 

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We've talked about this before 
and so I won't go into that, but

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understanding that different 
shoes are going to work for 

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different people and we might 
not always know why, but 

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learning kind of the trends of 
what works for you is really 

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key. 
And so Andrew and I have learned

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over the years, yeah, typically,
although sometimes we get 

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surprised that there are certain
things that work for us. 

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And so that's we're going to 
kind of share as we apply that 

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to one or two shoes as usual, to
again, help you understand how 

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do you do this for yourself and 
how do you get better at 

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learning what works best for you
as an individual? 

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Because guess what your running 
buddy might is probably going to

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have something totally 
different. 

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And I would just make one more 
point that although, you know, 

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you and I both like to argue and
you know, it's nice to be right 

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in this situation, there is 
actually no right answer. 

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Like we're discussing why these 
shoes work or don't work for us.

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But it's not like, Oh well, I'm 
right about the shoe and you're 

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wrong. 
It's just this is how you and I,

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with different running styles, 
bio mechanics, you know, comfort

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filters, experience these shoes 
and by discussing it in detail 

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here, hopefully we can help you 
learn something about the shoes 

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that work best for you. 
Yeah, I would definitely echo 

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that there is no right answer 
for the population. 

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There is things that might work 
better for the individual and 

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that's why we are technically 
both going to be right in our 

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own way. 
So that'll be fun. 

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So the shoe, should we jump 
right in? 

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Should we say what shoe this is?
I mean, they probably, if 

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they've looked at the thumbnail,
the episode name, they probably 

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know what it is, but it's going 
to be the Hoka Cielo X1 version 

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2. 
Did I say that right? 

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Am I saying this correctly? 
I think it's the Cielo X12 point

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O. 
Two point O OK, so at least said

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Cielo correctly. 
Yeah, and the original is just 

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the Hoka Cielo X1. 
Got it. 

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I don't know these just called 
it 2 but that's that's a 

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different story. 
So I think that's because their 

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spikes are called the X2. 
Oh, that makes sense. 

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Got it. 
All right, well, that joke's not

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going to work now, so I'm going 
to abandon that. 

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So anyway, so this is new. 
How would you describe this? 

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This is Hoka's kind of more 
premium race day shoe. 

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It does technically. 
Now is this within the legal 

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stack height limits for the for 
World Athletics? 

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So what I read is that, well, 
one running warehouse measures 

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it as 46mm at the heel and 39 in
the forefoot. 

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But what Hoka did with the 2.0 
is whatever shoe they measure 

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off of for World Athletics, 
which I think is a not a men's 

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nine, it's either 98. 
And a half, I think it also it 

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could be 8 1/2. 
Could be 8 1/2 yeah. 

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So, you know, they they don't 
measure at the very back of the 

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heel, they measure a little 
further forward. 

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So wherever they measure on the 
heel, on the men's 8 1/2 

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measures 40mm. 
But as the shoes get bigger, it 

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actually measures more than 
that. 

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And as they get smaller, it 
measures a little less. 

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But basically they made they 
tuned it so that the shoe that's

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getting measured is within the 
limits. 

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Got it. 
So technically within the limits

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depending on who you ask, but 
it's still meant to be some kind

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of racing shoe kind of more 
elite or faster level that's now

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no longer a training companion. 
The previous version was 

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definitely above the legal 
limits and it was really more of

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a rate workout kind of training 
companion. 

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I thought it was a phenomenal 
shoe honestly for the 

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recreational runner where 
although this previous version 

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was crazy bouncy and it was 
insane to run in, it was still 

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very runnable from a like easy 
run perspective and I think it 

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was more comfortable or I 
thought it was a great option 

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for recreational runners. 
There's also some unique factors

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that actually made it 
technically a stability shoe in 

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some ways, or at least very 
guided, whereas this version is 

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completely different. 
So if you thought you know knew 

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the Cielo X1, this is not the 
same shoe at all. 

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It is a race. 
It is meant to go fast. 

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It doesn't go very well at 
slower speeds. 

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It's really not how it's 
designed. 

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It is meant to go at faster, 
either fast workouts or fast 

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race paces. 
Now, Andrew, do you have the 

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specs on this? 
I. 

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Do and actually I wanted to 
catch you there. 

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Great. 
In our review of the two point 

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O, you wrote that the original 
was above limits. 

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I was like, was it really? 
So I looked back and actually 

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the official stack height for 
the X1 like last year's shoe for

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men it's 3932 and for women it's
3730. 

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But you know, running warehouse 
like hand measures shoes and I 

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looked at what they say it is 
and they say it's also 4639. 

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So I think the original, you 
know this shoe was World 

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Athletics legal as well, but 
from a pure measurement 

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standpoint, the stack height is 
actually the same as the 2.0. 

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That makes sense. 
I remember what was crazy is 

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that was not a the lightest 
super shoe. 

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It was definitely bouncy but I 
forget who was that. 

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Used it for a mile road race and
actually won and I was like who 

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was that? 
I think it. 

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Was Chrissy gear. 
Yeah, I think you're right. 

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Yeah. 
And I was like, that would not 

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have at first. 
I was like, that's not the show 

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I would have chosen. 
But then the more I use it, I'm 

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like, I'm kind of not 100% 
surprised. 

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It's crazy bouncing. 
So technically hand measurement 

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may not be the same same stack 
height, or may not be the same 

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different stack height, but it 
couldn't feel more different. 

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Oh absolutely. 
They in my opinion they should 

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be called two different shoes 
because they're just so 

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different in terms of the ride. 
But instead we've got the two 

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point O. 
So for specs, cause specs have 

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changed, not the stack height or
the drop, but the weight has 

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changed a lot. 
So the original X1 was 9.3 oz 

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264g. 
That's a men's size 10. 

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Hoka measures the men's size 10.
It was 7.4 oz 210 grams for a 

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women's size 8. 
And the two point O is over an 

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ounce lighter in the men's 
version. 

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So the men's two point O here, 
mine is very dirty because I 

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basically ran in snow in it one 
day. 

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Men's is 8.1 oz 230 grams. 
Again, that's a men's size ten, 

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6.8 oz 192 grams for women's 
size 8. 

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So finally we're seeing weights 
that are kind of what we expect 

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to see with like true super 
racing shoes. 

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The original, which I loved. 
I love training in it but I 

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would never race in it because 
of how heavy it is. 

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But 2.0 feels super light on 
foot. 

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I would actually argue it feels 
lighter than its stated weight. 

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So big props to Hoka for shaving
that weight off of this new 

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update. 
Big. 

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Problems. 
How how they did it works better

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for you than me I think. 
So that's fair. 

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Now, should we start with the 
ride or should we start with the

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fit first? 
Well, I think we disagree the 

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most on the ride, so let's give 
the people what they want and go

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straight to the controversy. 
Got it. 

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So they're still using, to my 
knowledge, still using the same 

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P bar or P backspaced foam, 
still very soft, very bouncy. 

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00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:51,560
I would argue that this shoe the
midsole to me feels way more 

226
00:11:51,560 --> 00:11:55,440
rockard and a little bit more 
bouncy in terms of how quick it 

227
00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:56,760
responds compared to the 
original. 

228
00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,560
The original was crazy. 
Once it broke in it just had 

229
00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:02,560
this really insane bounce. 
It would just propel you along 

230
00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:05,360
is really good. 
It just wasn't that fast. 

231
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:07,600
It didn't like it was really 
good to get into a rhythm. 

232
00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,000
I ran A1745K time like stroller 
time trial that I was not 

233
00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:14,200
expecting to do in the original.
I was like, oh, that was 

234
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,600
interesting and which is not 
what I was expecting at the 

235
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:17,800
time. 
So it was, it definitely could 

236
00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,080
handle speed, but I just feel 
like for from a light 

237
00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,440
perspective, from how the foam 
seems to respond much quicker 

238
00:12:23,680 --> 00:12:27,400
than the original version. 
And it is also very much more 

239
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:28,640
rocker. 
And you could just see this 

240
00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,880
looking at the platform, 4 foot 
rocker is way more aggressive, 

241
00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,640
way larger. 
The heels got a much larger and 

242
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:36,960
more aggressive bevel. 
So from a ride and rolling 

243
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,920
perspective for me, although it 
felt like it should be able to 

244
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:45,320
do 5K10K, the rolling ride made 
it feel a lot better for like 

245
00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:47,240
marathon, half marathon tech 
efforts. 

246
00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,200
It's a very efficient suit. 
It's very light and part of why 

247
00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:54,400
that didn't work for me is 
because it just was not stable 

248
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,600
enough where if you look at how 
narrow the platform is, there's 

249
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,200
a medial cut out now which I 
knew was not going to work for 

250
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,680
me and it didn't. 
And the mid foot and heel are so

251
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:07,040
narrow for issue that's so tall.
I can handle this for short 

252
00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,720
distances, but as it gets longer
with something this soft and 

253
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,840
this narrow, 4 foot's great, 
right? 

254
00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,760
But I'm not a four foot striker 
typically I'm a rear foot 

255
00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:16,520
striker. 
I just had a hard time. 

256
00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,600
So I found it a very rolling 
rockered ride. 

257
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,440
It did have lots of bounce. 
It felt really like and it was, 

258
00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,360
it felt good to turn over 
quickly and it just didn't have 

259
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,880
it have the feel of like a 5K10K
racer. 

260
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:29,520
It feels like it's a longer 
distance shoe that unfortunately

261
00:13:29,560 --> 00:13:33,240
with those kind of match just 
isn't going to work for someone 

262
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,200
like me that needs a little bit 
more stability or a stable rear 

263
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,120
foot, mid foot. 
Well, I've got to say I 

264
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:42,280
completely disagree. 
That's the reason, yes. 

265
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:48,120
All right, so I well, I do agree
it's not for slow paces like 

266
00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,040
when I took it for my first run,
just during a warm up. 

267
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,560
I'm like wow like I can feel 
this medial cut out, not in a 

268
00:13:54,560 --> 00:13:57,600
bad way, but just like this year
wants to go faster than what I'm

269
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,520
currently running. 
But I also agreed that the foam 

270
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,480
feels a lot more resilient. 
Like it just feels like it 

271
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:09,000
explodes when you load it. 
It's so fast and responsive. 

272
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,520
Whereas the original version I 
think it felt more. 

273
00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,440
The rocker was very apparent in 
the original version, but it 

274
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,880
didn't have that like explosive 
foam feeling that the two point 

275
00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:24,360
O does. 
And what what's interesting 

276
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,800
about that is the original 
version I could use for like 

277
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:31,520
mile pace workouts no problem, 
but it just it was more of a 

278
00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:36,560
rolling type shoe than like a 
really bouncy type shoe and two 

279
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:38,560
point for me. 
I know. 

280
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:40,760
I love that we're having the 
exact opposite experience with 

281
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,880
both shoes now. 
It's not just one, it's both. 

282
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,680
Yeah, yeah. 
So the two point OI mean it just

283
00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:52,080
feels like it wants to go fast 
and this so I don't remember 

284
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:53,480
when we got the shoe like a 
month ago. 

285
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,680
So I've been training for the 
800 mile this winter. 

286
00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,720
So like my longer workout days 
have been like all tempo runs or

287
00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,120
progression runs. 
So I've tested it a lot at like 

288
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,080
half marathon pace, 10K pace, 5K
pace. 

289
00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,560
The most recent workout I did in
it was like a 30 minute 

290
00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,520
progression 10 minutes at half 
marathon, 10 minutes at 10 K, 10

291
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,600
minutes at 5K, which is a very 
cruel workout, but it went well.

292
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,880
I had fun during it. 
But I mean, as I got into the 

293
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,840
faster paces, it just felt like 
it responded accordingly. 

294
00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,880
Like that final like 10 minute 
5K section felt, you know, hard 

295
00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,360
but amazing. 
Like I was like, this is an 

296
00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,520
awesome shoe for running this 
fast. 

297
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:43,880
So for me all right, so we've 
got this huge medial cut out 

298
00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,040
here, but I land pretty much 
right here. 

299
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:51,520
So because I tend to land too 
far laterally on my midfoot, 

300
00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,880
having this cut out just makes 
it so much easier for me to 

301
00:15:54,880 --> 00:16:00,360
transition from where I land to 
my first MTP joint to push off. 

302
00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,240
So it just, it kind of feels 
like this shoe is really 

303
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,920
designed for like my stability 
issues, whereas it's absolutely 

304
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,320
not designed for your stability 
issues. 

305
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,200
Yeah. 
And you know, when I was running

306
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,440
slow, it just did kind of feel 
like there was like a hole here,

307
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,680
like I would land and it just 
the shoe gave. 

308
00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:25,360
But then as I started running 
faster in the shoe, it just felt

309
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,960
like it shot me from initial 
contact push off, which is one 

310
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:31,720
of the whole points of a super 
shoe. 

311
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:33,960
Yes. 
Not to interrupt you, that's 

312
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,480
kind of why I've received a 
little bit of flak. 

313
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:39,000
I think we sometimes receive a 
little flak for this, but when 

314
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,680
we talked about shoes that are 
just not appropriate for slower 

315
00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,200
paces and maybe in that case not
designed for recreational 

316
00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,760
runners, this might be one of 
them where I think this shoe is 

317
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:49,520
so aggressive. 
Like if you're not and I, 

318
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:51,720
somebody is going to ask what 
pace should you be running in? 

319
00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:54,240
I don't know if it's really pace
or like an effort. 

320
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:56,840
But yeah, I think I totally feel
you. 

321
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:58,920
Where it feels like that 
midfoot, there's almost like it 

322
00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,800
gives way. 
And I think either for me, it's 

323
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,920
being more unstable on the 
medial side or in your case, if 

324
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,599
you're not running fast enough, 
you just don't transition 

325
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,480
through it quick enough. 
These shoes are designed at 

326
00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,240
faster paces. 
They're not designed at slower 

327
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,640
jogging efforts because that's 
not what they're doing. 

328
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:18,400
They're meant for. 
They're meant for faster 

329
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,800
efforts, for improving your 
economy, for improving your race

330
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:23,240
performance. 
So that it's interesting to hear

331
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,119
that you're also feeling like 
the midfoot kind of gives way. 

332
00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:27,720
But I also understand why they 
did that because it's a great 

333
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:29,720
way to say, wait, somebody 
asked. 

334
00:17:30,120 --> 00:17:32,200
Yeah, on YouTube like a. 
Huge cut out. 

335
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,840
Yeah, they're like, why do they 
cut this out? 

336
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:35,960
Like honestly, they're just 
trying to find every way they 

337
00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,720
can to cut weight, and different
cutouts are going to have 

338
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:40,280
different benefits and 
consequences. 

339
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,320
Right. 
And, and you know, a lot of 

340
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,400
people did complain or reviewers
mentioned or runners mentioned 

341
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,640
how the lateral cut out in the 
original version 'cause the 

342
00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,640
opposite problem, like if you 
had lateral ankle stability 

343
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,880
issues that you were going to 
end up like rolling your ankle, 

344
00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,760
especially if you were running 
on like a crowned road. 

345
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,880
Now I never really had that 
problem, which is interesting 

346
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,040
because I definitely have 
lateral stability issues, but I 

347
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:12,240
think it's probably because the 
placement of this lateral cut 

348
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:18,640
out is further back compared to 
the placement of the medial cut 

349
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:22,720
out. 
So like I don't even land close 

350
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,520
enough to the lateral cut out 
for I think it to really like if

351
00:18:26,520 --> 00:18:29,640
I was a heel striker I think it 
would be more of an issue but I 

352
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:33,480
don't it for me this just 
literally never bothered me and 

353
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,480
I've got over 100 miles on these
shoes so but. 

354
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,680
Whereas for me it was like, this
is amazing. 

355
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,600
Like I feel like I borderline 
have like a almost a medial 

356
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,000
wedge more slight medial 
stability in that shoe did 

357
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,040
great. 
My only challenge is as usual 

358
00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,720
for me, I just ripped the 
outsole off sadly. 

359
00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,120
So those those when you have 
something that I can catch and 

360
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:55,160
pull off, it's going to get 
caught and pulling off. 

361
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,560
So I didn't quite get 100 miles 
on sadly on my pair but. 

362
00:18:59,120 --> 00:19:01,760
Yeah. 
And both of these shoes have, 

363
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,720
you know, this rubber patch and 
then an open patch. 

364
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:08,080
And that's right where you RIP 
it off, right? 

365
00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:09,560
That's where it came off on both
shoes. 

366
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,320
Yeah. 
Every time I see that I'm like, 

367
00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:14,200
this is not going to last long. 
I like this shoe. 

368
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,520
It's going to get murdered. 
So sad. 

369
00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,240
But back to the yeah, back to 
the to version 2.0. 

370
00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:23,760
I'm really curious because when 
I want to talk to you, like what

371
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,960
I experienced with the ride is I
feel like I couldn't turn over 

372
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:31,000
as like into that like 5K below 
kind of pace because I found the

373
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,720
shoe to be two rocker, which 
I've noticed when I have a very 

374
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,160
large rocker, it's really hard 
for me to push off. 

375
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:40,960
Like I use a lot of calf to 
drive for as I get faster and I 

376
00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,040
feel like the rocker kind of 
takes away that mechanism for me

377
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,400
it sounds like and that that's 
kind of been my consistent feel.

378
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:49,440
That sounds like that wasn't an 
issue for you. 

379
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:54,520
That is correct and I sometimes 
I also have issues with four 

380
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:56,800
foot rockers that are too early,
but not on this one. 

381
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:03,080
A couple of the workouts I used 
two point O on did my tempo run 

382
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:08,520
and then I would have like 4 by 
200 like faster than 800 pace 

383
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:13,040
and I used this shoe for it. 
It felt awesome like I had no 

384
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,520
problems in it. 
I didn't even have problems 

385
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:19,720
doing that on slushy roads one 
day like. 

386
00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:23,760
The shoe was great for 
everything I threw at it, so I 

387
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,000
think the reason why it did not 
bother me as much One, there's 

388
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,600
not like a huge amount of toe 
spring in the shoe. 

389
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:34,760
I think if it was a lot of toe 
spring combined with the early 4

390
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,440
foot rocker, that would have 
just locked up my 4 foot too 

391
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,760
much and I would have felt like 
I didn't have anything to push 

392
00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:46,600
off of the I. 
I guess it just lines up well 

393
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,720
with my foot. 
It's just not too early. 

394
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,440
Like a a good example of a shoe 
with too early of a four foot 

395
00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:57,040
rocker for me is the magic speed
line ASICS magic speed. 

396
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,280
Like that shoe. 
I just feel like my foot is like

397
00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,080
my 4 foot's in a cast and I 
can't use my calf muscles at 

398
00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,040
all. 
But I definitely did not. 

399
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,720
Are we actually somewhat 
agreeing on a shoe that's a 

400
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,440
miracle? 
Oh my gosh. 

401
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,200
I know. 
Yeah, sorry ASICS, I didn't like

402
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,040
the new mat. 
The older magic speeds were for 

403
00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,640
not like though I think it was 
version 3 was phenomenal. 

404
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,280
Version 4 just felt really 
stiff. 

405
00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:23,240
And for those that don't know, 
we talked about this a lot of 

406
00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,320
times when it comes to the 
stiffness issue, which a plate 

407
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,760
can contribute to how whether a 
shoes going to work for you 

408
00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,720
actually depends on whether the 
act, the lineup and the curve of

409
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:36,200
the plate lines up with the axes
of your first metatarsal 

410
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:40,000
phalangeal joint, IE your your 
typically your big toe joint. 

411
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,040
Now, the only way to actually 
like measure this if you need 

412
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:47,560
like like X-ray or FMR or like 
something like some kind of 

413
00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:49,600
imaging machine to look at this 
with your foot in there. 

414
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,960
And since most of us don't have 
access to that, honestly, you 

415
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,640
just put it on go. 
Does this feel good or not? 

416
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,480
Do you feel like you, does it 
feel not too stiff, not too 

417
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,120
flexible? 
Does it feel just right? 

418
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:02,320
That's how you know? 
And so it sounds like we have a 

419
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,600
similar experience on the magic 
speed, whereas I think I may be 

420
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,960
hitting this either a little bit
too late or just not lining up 

421
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,280
the right way, but it seems to 
be lining up very, very well 

422
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,200
with you. 
It definitely does. 

423
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,560
And I'm probably a good point to
make is I'm really between 

424
00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:19,600
sizes, like there are a lot of 
shoes that I go up a half size 

425
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:24,800
in, but these Hokas have always 
fit me true to size in nine and 

426
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,240
a half. 
So that may be part of it just 

427
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:29,040
the way that Hoka has designed 
the shoe. 

428
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:34,280
And one thing that I like about 
both the original and the two 

429
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,280
point O is the width of the toe 
box it lines up with like where 

430
00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,040
my Mt PS are. 
I don't get any irritation there

431
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,040
and that's often why I need to 
go up a half size in some super 

432
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,400
shoes, particularly at the 
Endorphin line. 

433
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,520
So it may just be that being 
able to wear my proper length 

434
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,160
size also allows the four foot 
rocker to line up with my Mt PS 

435
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,760
correctly. 
Should we talk about fit? 

436
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,240
Yes, let's move on to that. 
So I actually felt like this 

437
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,320
shoe fits slightly short and I 
almost wondered. 

438
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,080
So I didn't realize this until 
recently but I'm actually 

439
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:16,280
between A10 and 10 1/2 and so I 
keep asking for 10s not know 

440
00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,000
what's going to happen. 
Which sometimes has resulted to 

441
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,240
be losing toenails or bruising 
my toes. 

442
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,680
This is one of them that I for 
the first time in a while 

443
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,400
actually felt like this is a 
fairly snug fit. 

444
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,320
It's more of that for those that
kind of were used to some of the

445
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,400
older racing shoes pre super 
shoe. 

446
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:33,720
This has more of a racing style 
fit for me. 

447
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,680
It's more snug, not a lot of 
room in the forefoot and I would

448
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,080
say it almost feels slightly 
short. 

449
00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,640
Like I if I could, I don't know 
if I would take this for a 

450
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,280
marathon because I think it's 
still pressing into my foot a 

451
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,840
little bit where if I wanted to 
that I might consider 1/2 size 

452
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,080
up. 
It sounds like that was the a 

453
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:50,440
very different experience for 
you. 

454
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,560
Definitely, and you know The 
funny thing is like most Hokas 

455
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,440
don't work for me because of the
side walls, they kill my big 

456
00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:01,000
toe. 
But both Cielo X ones have been 

457
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:06,040
just fine. 
So yes, comparing one versus 2, 

458
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:11,080
clearly you can see that 2, the 
two point O is narrower in the 

459
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:14,320
forefoot. 
You can see that it's lower 

460
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,160
volume in the toe box and I 
could feel that. 

461
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,280
I mean, certainly it doesn't fit
the same as the original, but I 

462
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,680
didn't find it uncomfortable. 
I would agree it feels it fits 

463
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,840
like a racing shoe, whereas this
I mean it was just super 

464
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,880
comfortable, but it didn't 
necessarily feel like a racing 

465
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:34,160
shoe just because of how much 
volume was in here. 

466
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,800
But I didn't find the fit at all
uncomfortable. 

467
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,000
I didn't notice any pressure on 
the side of my big toe like I 

468
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,120
normally do in like the mock 
series or the ring cone. 

469
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,000
I didn't have any black 
toenails, no pain on my toe 

470
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,000
anything like it was just it was
super comfortable. 

471
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:54,680
I would say. 
Well, actually it wouldn't. 

472
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,520
You know, it's pretty easy to 
lock down. 

473
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,760
I had you're going to see. 
I had to lock down the laces 

474
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,560
pretty tight. 
You know they're pretty snugged 

475
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,840
up there, but this was an easy 
issue to just put on and go. 

476
00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:09,640
Yeah, I would definitely agree 
in terms of the fit where like I

477
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,720
actually didn't have to lock the
laces down at all. 

478
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,320
I think I did have to do that a 
little bit in the last one 

479
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,000
because again, for those people 
with maybe a little bit wider 

480
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,520
feet or higher volume, the 
version one actually would work 

481
00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:21,720
fairly well. 
I loved how much room I could 

482
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,200
like spread my toes out a little
bit. 

483
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,680
It's not an ultra shoe, but 
there was plenty of room, 

484
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,680
whereas this is quite the 
opposite where not not in like a

485
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:30,800
security. 
The security is still 

486
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:32,600
phenomenal. 
It's like super lightweight 

487
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,800
material, which I think was a 
good a good transition. 

488
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:37,840
Not that I disliked the last 
version, but it was more 

489
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,800
comfortable than it was 
performance. 

490
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,520
And they could have dropped a 
lot of weight, which they 

491
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,280
certainly did in version 2. 
It's just that it also got a 

492
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,720
little bit more snug and I 
didn't have to lock it down, but

493
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,680
that's because it was already 
felt kind of locked down anyway.

494
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,080
But yeah, super, I will 
appreciate it's got much 

495
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,640
lighter, which makes a lot more 
sense. 

496
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:56,600
I don't always understand what 
companies. 

497
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,760
Certain companies will use a 
fairly thick upper on a racing 

498
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:00,360
flat. 
I'm like. 

499
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,560
Right. 
Like no judgement. 

500
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,040
I don't understand the point. 
Like I'm not a materials science

501
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,440
expert, so you could people who 
can call me out on this on 

502
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:12,000
YouTube or wherever. 
But I think in today's world, we

503
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,200
have enough synthetic materials 
where you can create a pretty 

504
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:16,200
secure fit. 
It's actually fairly durable. 

505
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:20,760
That's still super lightweight. 
So yeah, version 2 makes total 

506
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,960
sense. 
I would caution certain people 

507
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,520
like for me that that if this 
fits closer the kind of this 

508
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,240
external overlay here, be a 
little cautious because that did

509
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,960
cause some pressure issues. 
I didn't run far enough in the 

510
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:34,200
shoe because I literally 
couldn't. 

511
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,720
Like I think my longest run was 
like 12 miles, but that's also a

512
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:42,520
long run for me right now where 
I did get some pressure, like 

513
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,600
didn't fully blister up, but got
some pressure irritation from 

514
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,320
those. 
So those that are sensitive to 

515
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,000
that, like aggressive tow guard,
it's flexible, but it still puts

516
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,280
pressure. 
So I would say be a little 

517
00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:53,720
cautious. 
Did you experience the same 

518
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,760
thing or was you totally fine? 
I was totally fine. 

519
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:01,000
My longest run was like 9 or 10 
miles in it because that's the 

520
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,200
furthest I run these days 
because yeah, big difference 

521
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,480
from past years. 
Yeah, that makes me feel better 

522
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,200
because usually it's like I'll 
hit like 13 or 14 and Andrew's 

523
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,120
like, oh, another like casual 20
mile area running. 

524
00:27:12,120 --> 00:27:13,800
Yeah, I did two 20s in it. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

525
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,160
Sounds. 
Like. 

526
00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,280
Oh man, I will say, I know we're
not like doing a comparison 

527
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,720
episode, but probably the best 
update between the two. 

528
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,880
The laces. 
These laces sucked. 

529
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,880
Sorry hookah, but they did. 
They made it really hard to like

530
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,560
actually tighten the shoe 
because they were so stiff. 

531
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,160
These are like normal laces. 
They tighten like normal laces, 

532
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,640
so that issue in the original 
version is no longer present. 

533
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,400
I will say I surprisedly 
actually agree with you. 

534
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,840
Whereas that tongue was pretty 
thin, even though it was like 

535
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:49,720
weirdly thick. 
It was also at the same time 

536
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,360
those laces gave me a fairly 
good amount of lace bite. 

537
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:54,640
And for those who don't know, 
lace bite is that experience 

538
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,120
where you like the laces get 
tight and it really pisses off 

539
00:27:57,360 --> 00:27:59,520
your the tendons on the top of 
your foot. 

540
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,000
Although there's a lot of 
different structures that 

541
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:03,200
actually can get mad with this, 
like the sheaths and whatever. 

542
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,480
But yeah, it just like puts too 
much pressure on that area and 

543
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,480
those laces definitely did that.
I didn't have any issue in 

544
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,480
version 2 with that at all. 
It was much better set. 

545
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,680
I also didn't have to lock it 
down as much so definitely 

546
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,160
didn't have that problem. 
So should we move on to talking 

547
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,200
a little more about the 
stability? 

548
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,320
I mean, we've already talked 
about, yeah, let's talk about it

549
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,680
more. 
Let's talk about it more. 

550
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,520
Because I mean, that's to me, 
from where my brain sits is the 

551
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,880
biggest difference where I'm 
like, you know, I don't have a 

552
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,680
problem with that because the 
goal is not to make every shoe a

553
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,000
stability shoe. 
And I hope people realize that, 

554
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,800
but just the original version 
worked very well. 

555
00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:42,120
It was one of the few stable 
like shoes out there for those 

556
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:44,960
that do have any kind of 
stability issue, at least 

557
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:49,280
immediately because we don't. 
In the past there were stability

558
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,840
racing shoes. 
There is no stability super shoe

559
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,400
that does not exist. 
There's a couple stable neutral 

560
00:28:55,400 --> 00:29:00,000
versions that might work for 
people and the original Cielo X1

561
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,800
actually did for those that 
anybody that collapsed or needed

562
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,440
a little bit more help with 
pronation. 

563
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,760
But this is now not the same 
shoe. 

564
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:10,200
So as we progress those that 
want to get the previous one on 

565
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,400
sale, great. 
But the new 1 coming this way 

566
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,760
means we have what technically 
one less shoe in that market 

567
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:17,920
which those that don't have 
spilling needs, I think it's 

568
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,080
going to be totally fine, 
although it sounds like this 

569
00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,440
actually created some stability 
for you in a way that you need. 

570
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:23,680
So I'd love to hear more about 
that. 

571
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:26,840
But for those with heel or mid 
foot stability needs, this is 

572
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:28,400
not going to work on like 
version 1. 

573
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:30,440
Yeah. 
So yeah, I agree. 

574
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,120
These are like two different 
shoes and it's actually a really

575
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:36,200
interesting study. 
And you know, you've got same 

576
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,840
company, 2 totally different 
geometries and just completely 

577
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,440
different rides. 
And of course there's more of a 

578
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:47,240
difference than just where they 
put the mid foot, the cut out. 

579
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,960
But the cut out is a big driver 
of how the shoe runs. 

580
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,800
So of course, like from a 
stability perspective, for me, 

581
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,360
the placement of the cut out 
made the biggest difference. 

582
00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,160
But how good always does a good 
job with, you know, the sole 

583
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,280
flaring in their shoes. 
There's not a ton in the heel 

584
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:08,200
and I can understand why that 
makes it less stable for you. 

585
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,720
But for me, the sole flaring is 
pretty balanced medially and 

586
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,040
laterally. 
And again, that just made the 

587
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,840
ride a little more centered. 
Especially, you know, this gives

588
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,440
I'm landing here helping me 
progress to my first MTP and 

589
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:31,120
push off just helped me maybe 
not go too quickly medially, but

590
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,800
there's yeah, there's really no 
like true control methods. 

591
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,760
It's not going to help you go in
one. 

592
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,360
Well, it's not going to help you
if you have medial stability 

593
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,560
needs, that's for sure. 
How did you feel in terms of 

594
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,040
like heel striking in the shoe? 
Did it feel like it just 

595
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:56,040
collapsed here, or did you feel 
like it was like that collapse 

596
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,920
happened a little bit further 
into your? 

597
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,560
I will say it was another reason
why running slower wasn't super 

598
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:03,680
hot. 
We're like when I pick up the 

599
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,080
pace, obviously my landing point
moves farther forward and 

600
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,920
depending on where I'm going. 
But when I was like running 

601
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,520
easy, I'm getting fatigued and 
I'm kind of farther back on the 

602
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,480
heel. 
I am going to say this, and I 

603
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,120
can get quoted on this. 
This is the case where having 

604
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:20,360
that soft of a midsole foam and 
that large of a bevel, I feel 

605
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,080
like didn't work as well. 
Plus a narrow platform where it 

606
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,920
was like, you know, bevels are 
great because they facilitate 

607
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,560
motion, but you have to be able 
to control it. 

608
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:31,640
If you add for me, super soft 
heel on top of that and then 

609
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,960
also a narrow platform which 
didn't work like I would just 

610
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,800
land and kind of wobble. 
If I was running faster, I could

611
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,160
roll through it. 
Like when I started getting 

612
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,800
really quick, it felt like a 
better shoe because and I can 

613
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:42,880
totally understand why this 
works great for you because that

614
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:45,880
forefoot, there is soul flare. 
You can see it, the small piece 

615
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:47,840
on the lateral side. 
So I totally get why that would 

616
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,240
keep you a little bit more 
centered. 

617
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,440
There is a lat there is some 
lateral soul flare, which I was 

618
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,200
or not soul flare, a lateral 
side wall, which I was wondering

619
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,960
if you'd noticed and if that 
bothered you at all. 

620
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:59,600
But the forefoot is actually 
pretty decent. 

621
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:01,800
It's not great. 
It's also not, it's not terrible

622
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:06,280
though, but just the larger the 
bevel is, the more you have to 

623
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,960
be able to control it. 
And if you add a super soft foam

624
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,880
and a narrow platform, it just 
was a little bit of a struggle. 

625
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,560
Could I do it? 
Yeah, but just there was a 

626
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,840
certain mile or like I'm 
starting to struggle and I'm 

627
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,600
getting fatigued both in ankle 
and hip. 

628
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:20,840
Yeah. 
And, you know, talking about 

629
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,480
like your experience in the 
shoe, this shoe was so 

630
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,840
interesting to look at when it's
sitting flat because, like, the 

631
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,760
heel really doesn't touch the 
ground. 

632
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,600
No, it really doesn't. 
And the angle of the bevel 

633
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:38,280
almost makes like the heel 
striking point right in front of

634
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:40,920
the cut out. 
And that would be incredibly 

635
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,240
unstable if that's where you 
naturally land. 

636
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:49,680
So yeah, it's it's just not 
designed for people like you. 

637
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760
Yeah, for stability. 
So and it can't, it can work. 

638
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:55,880
I mean, and you could, I'm 
certainly if I trained, I mean, 

639
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,960
the outsole's going to be my 
biggest thing because I'm 

640
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,520
already at 30 miles starting to 
pull. 

641
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,840
Some people can see me picking 
at this. 

642
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,400
If I can get a little farther 
forward, that's good. 

643
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,960
I just found again, the rocker 
for me is too large for me to 

644
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,080
feel like it's a faster shoe for
me personally. 

645
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,600
But those people that do well 
with that is going to be great. 

646
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,920
Those people have very neutral 
mechanics that can just roll 

647
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,320
through. 
This shoe is designed like for 

648
00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:20,120
you to stay really in the 
sagittal plane front to back. 

649
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,560
If you have any side to side 
motion, this is probably not 

650
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,160
going to be the greatest shoe 
for you. 

651
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,240
But if you if you stay in the 
middle, this is going to be a 

652
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,960
great, very efficient quick 
shoe. 

653
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,000
Just not for someone like me 
that has a little side to side 

654
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,200
or frontal plane. 
That's just how it goes. 

655
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,920
But I, I will say I get what 
Hoke is doing. 

656
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:41,120
And you know, I, I brought this 
shoe out too and I was like 

657
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,400
talking about the endorphin 
elite too, where this is also 

658
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:45,680
one where they actually did the 
OP. 

659
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,400
They kind of they widened 
certain areas out and they have 

660
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:50,560
a lateral cut out in the 
midfoot, which you think would 

661
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,800
work for me, but it's just so 
soft. 

662
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,160
I've been struggling with this 
shoe as well. 

663
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:57,360
And so it's another option 
thing. 

664
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,640
We're kind of, it's so 
responsive and so aggressive. 

665
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,480
It may not work for individuals 
like myself that just need it to

666
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,080
be a little more stable because 
the taller you get with mid 

667
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,560
soles for a trainer, you do need
to widen the sole out because 

668
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,560
the taller you get, the more 
inherently unstable it's going 

669
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,400
to be. 
But when you're trying to cut 

670
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,159
weight and you're running 
faster, they're looking for the 

671
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,199
most efficient way to make that 
shoes light. 

672
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:19,760
And I can't judge. 
But yeah, that's just the trade 

673
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,320
off of making them lighter. 
I haven't gotten to test that 

674
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,800
shoe besides when we got to just
briefly running it and we 

675
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,440
visited Saucony, but I'm 
interested to see. 

676
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,719
I mean, I know it's so different
from the original version, but 

677
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:36,080
I'm interested to just feel what
that cut out is like. 

678
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,679
Yeah, I guess we could say that 
now that we we we put the 

679
00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:42,360
original like the early version 
of the Endorphin Elite 2 on. 

680
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,120
We went and got visited and it 
was super cool. 

681
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,920
Like I think I saw you and David
be like, this is cool. 

682
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,040
And I put it on like I think I'm
going to sprain my ankle. 

683
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,920
I was really scared and I've, 
I've, I think I almost got 50 

684
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:54,280
miles. 
I'm forcing myself to run to 

685
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,040
them, but I was like, I was 
like, Oh my gosh, I can't, this 

686
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,840
is the bounciest thing I've ever
like, like softest thing I've 

687
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,680
ever run in. 
And it was like, wow. 

688
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,000
We're at an interesting turning 
point where I think shoes are 

689
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,080
becoming so soft and responsive 
that you've really got to make, 

690
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,600
to keep them light. 
You've really got to make sure 

691
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,880
you got stable mechanics and 
some of us like myself, might 

692
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,800
get left behind a little bit. 
Or what I think's going to what 

693
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:21,600
is starting to happen is like 
the Vaporfly, which I think 

694
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,600
we've talked about, version 4 is
actually not maximal stack. 

695
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,880
They actually dropped the stack 
height. 

696
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,320
And for someone like myself, 
that makes me really excited. 

697
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,040
And Andrew and I are both really
excited about the Streak Fly 

698
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:35,040
too, because we both like 
running shorter distance stuff 

699
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:36,800
right now. 
And to have something a little 

700
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,320
closer is going to be a little 
more inherently stable because 

701
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,400
it's closer to ground. 
So we might see two divergent 

702
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,960
categories, and we'll have to 
see how the public responds to 

703
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:46,200
them. 
What do you think about that? 

704
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,640
I mean, I hope that that's what 
happens. 

705
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,320
Like, I think we talked about 
this in some episode, but we've 

706
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:56,440
tested so many shoes that have 
stack heights in the 40 or even 

707
00:35:56,440 --> 00:36:00,440
50mm range. 
And I don't, it would be 

708
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,000
interesting to talk to someone 
who's like 20 versus someone 

709
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,800
who's our age, who we all ran in
normal shoes before this, like, 

710
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,240
maximal craze, right? 
Like, I really enjoy running in 

711
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,600
shoes that are lower to the 
ground that just make me feel 

712
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,520
like I'm running, you know, and 
like, the shoe isn't doing it 

713
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:21,160
for me. 
But if you've only ever run in, 

714
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,720
you know, modern running shoes, 
do you feel the same? 

715
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:26,920
Like, what if you're. 
Yeah. 

716
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,840
But I do think like the pendulum
has swung pretty far in One 

717
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:34,600
Direction. 
Like every shoe is being 

718
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,800
maximized. 
Like Hyperion Max 2 got bigger, 

719
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,960
it's going to get bigger in 
version three. 

720
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,920
Like every single shoe adding 
stack height, whatever. 

721
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,200
Some people like that, but not 
everybody does. 

722
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,120
And also unfortunately or 
fortunately, the footwear 

723
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:52,560
industry always needs to put out
something new every year. 

724
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,360
So after they've fed us, you 
know, several years of all of 

725
00:36:56,360 --> 00:37:02,400
these super tall shoes, yeah, 
we're bringing back the low 

726
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,560
stack shoe, you know, and I will
it be like in the, you know, 10 

727
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,240
to 20mm range? 
Probably not. 

728
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,840
But will I hope that there will 
be like a second, a true second 

729
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,200
category of super shoes that are
like, you know, the New Balance 

730
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,400
Pacer version 2, which I loved, 
except it completely shredded my

731
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,240
heels. 
Like the blood stain was 

732
00:37:27,240 --> 00:37:28,840
actually pretty gross on the 
shoe. 

733
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,480
But those shoes, not everyone's 
a marathon runner. 

734
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:37,080
And as these marathon shoes are 
getting taller and softer and 

735
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:42,520
more tuned for the marathon 
distance, people who just raise 

736
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:47,480
5 KS, 10 KS, even half marathons
who don't need that tall of a 

737
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,720
shoe or that heavy of, of a 
shoe, it would be nice to have 

738
00:37:50,720 --> 00:37:54,120
shoes designed for the 
significantly faster running 

739
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,000
you're doing at those paces. 
And I mean, that's a real 

740
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,920
opportunity for shoe companies 
and, you know, they want to make

741
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,480
money, but it's also an exciting
opportunity for runners to try 

742
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,800
something different. 
Yeah, I would say that that gets

743
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,000
me equally excited. 
And I, I totally agree with you 

744
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,400
that I feel like the last year 
especially, a lot of the Super 

745
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:18,080
shoes just feel better at those 
longer distance paces and trying

746
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:21,720
to get them to turn over at 
5K10K as a struggle. 

747
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,840
But then you go into the shoes 
meant for 5K10K and they're like

748
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:28,280
they're not not to be rude, 
they're not full super shoes 

749
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:33,040
like the Takumi Sen is a great 
shoe, for example, but just the 

750
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,920
how it feels, how it like, you 
know, the rod placements, like 

751
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,240
it's not the same as the audios 
pro or a vapor fly. 

752
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:44,320
The original St. fly just wasn't
the same. 

753
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,400
It was a great flexible shoe 
with a little bit of bouncy 

754
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,600
foam, but it just it wasn't a 
true super shoe by any means. 

755
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,440
In fact, I know a lot of people 
that like it better as a 

756
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,840
training shoe than a faster 
shoe, which is interesting. 

757
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,720
So we I'm excited. 
It looks like there's this 

758
00:38:58,720 --> 00:39:00,200
second category. 
Like you said, it's coming 

759
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,400
backwards. 
Maybe moderate stack height is 

760
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,560
maybe the better term, but it's 
still got all the Super shoe 

761
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,240
features and it's not nearly as 
kind of low as some of these 

762
00:39:09,240 --> 00:39:11,280
other things are. 
There's still the plate, there's

763
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,920
still the Super foam, there's 
still the geometry, but it just 

764
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,360
seems to be a little bit more 
balanced. 

765
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,080
The hard part though, is that a 
lot of the run it like 

766
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,080
especially the recreational and 
elite people, everybody's 

767
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,320
wanting taller because they've 
been they've been fed this story

768
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,000
that more is better. 
But and everybody seems to focus

769
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,640
on the marathon people doing 
5K10 KS. 

770
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,080
That's that's not as popular 
like you. 

771
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,440
And I love that because I want 
to be able to go faster. 

772
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,240
Like that's something that's 
innate to us. 

773
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:40,440
But everybody wants to focus on 
the marathon. 

774
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,200
So I'm curious to see if this 
new category sticks around 

775
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,120
knowing it's not going to be as 
applicable to the marathon, half

776
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,680
marathon anymore. 
And that's really where the 

777
00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:50,080
money is. 
Like that's where you solve. 

778
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,360
That's why people want the 
softest, most cushioned kind of 

779
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:54,040
thing. 
At least the United States. 

780
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,840
I think worldwide might be 
different, but maybe I'll have 

781
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,400
to go back to getting companies 
irritated because I found 

782
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,760
something they only sell in the 
Asian market and I ordered it 

783
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,920
and they're like, please, Matt, 
stop reviewing this stuff 

784
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,440
because people ask for it. 
Yeah, I've been on really good 

785
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:08,560
behavior. 
That's about it. 

786
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,480
Yeah, I've got a really good 
behavior most because all the 

787
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,520
like really cool shoes dyed 
because everybody want now even 

788
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,440
across the world wants super 
shoes so. 

789
00:40:17,720 --> 00:40:20,040
They'll have a return. 
You know what you were just 

790
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:23,840
saying about like everyone. 
You know, the focus on marathon 

791
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:27,680
shoes and taller stack kind of 
makes me think along the lines 

792
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:32,720
of this year, the 2.0. 
I mean, this really is designed 

793
00:40:32,720 --> 00:40:36,840
for, in my opinion, designed for
faster running like this. 

794
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:41,360
For me, it is a 5K10K shoe and 
what are its attributes? 

795
00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,400
It's very neutral. 
It's not for people with 

796
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:46,680
stability needs. 
It's super responsive. 

797
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,320
It's super awkward. 
So is this going to be what that

798
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,880
like moderate stack height 
category ends up being where 

799
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,280
their shoes that are designed 
for faster running And maybe you

800
00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:02,760
know, that's the shoe that some 
marathoners use just like M sis 

801
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,760
and uses the pacer 2 for 
marathons. 

802
00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:08,920
They, you know, there's going to
be plenty of hookah athletes 

803
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:14,280
racing marathons in the shoe. 
Maybe the new streak Fly and I 

804
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,520
cannot wait to test it is going 
to be that shoe for some people 

805
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,920
where it's like the a slightly 
lower stack Vapor Fly 

806
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,040
essentially. 
And we've got to keep in mind 

807
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:32,480
the original Vapor Fly, the 
stack height was like 30, 8:30 

808
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,000
or some maybe even. 
Lower, right, I think it was 

809
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,000
slightly lower. 
Somebody please correct us in 

810
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,160
the in the on YouTube or 
wherever you're listening. 

811
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,600
But yeah, it wasn't maximal. 
And I think for some it felt 

812
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,400
like that because back in the 
day there weren't a lot of shoes

813
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,360
that had a heel stack height 
that high and certainly not 

814
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,120
anything that was that soft 
resilient like that was that was

815
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:54,800
mind blowing. 
But you compare it to some of 

816
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:56,960
the stuff today, it's like, oh, 
that's like a moderate stack 

817
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,760
height shoe. 
Like I think it could ascend. 

818
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,560
The newer is like some of it's 
like the same thing. 

819
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,280
So to have it kind of come back,
I think is actually good because

820
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,000
it kind of brings us back to 
where we were where a lot of the

821
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,320
racing flats back in the day 
before super shoes people 

822
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,440
couldn't take for a marathon. 
It was only the elites that 

823
00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:16,800
really would take those for 
longer distances and even the 

824
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,280
elites would go Nah, actually, 
instead of the like an audios, 

825
00:42:20,280 --> 00:42:24,280
I'm going to take a Boston for 
and people ran really fast. 

826
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:28,320
And I think we might be going 
somewhat back to that where the 

827
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:32,560
most people are going to use for
a marathon an alpha fly or 

828
00:42:32,560 --> 00:42:34,240
you're more like cushion type 
shoe. 

829
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,160
And then maybe more elite stuff.
People that can run faster, 

830
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:39,680
faster and handle a little less 
might use vape fly or even 

831
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:41,640
someone might be able to do a 
street fly too. 

832
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,760
Although that shoe, I don't know
if somebody could take that. 

833
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,760
I'm sure somebody can, but I 
would not take that for a 

834
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,000
marathon. 
That'd be really aggressive. 

835
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,760
Yeah. 
It almost looks like it's kind 

836
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,960
of like how spikes were like the
way the midsole is curved It's. 

837
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,960
Like, is this technically a? 
Negative drop I think. 

838
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:02,120
It does look like that. 
I think it was a 4mm drop shoe, 

839
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,600
but yeah, yeah, we'll. 
Have to see actually, I feel 

840
00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,200
like we that gets into like foot
angle in the shoe and it was so 

841
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,520
fascinating talking to the 
Mizuno R&D people about this 

842
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,480
because they're really the only 
ones who like even publish that 

843
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,640
data or talk about it. 
But I think that one of the 

844
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:24,840
factors that influences comfort 
and performance is your foot 

845
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,240
angle in the shoe, not just the 
drop. 

846
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,960
And it would be super 
interesting to know what those 

847
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,880
numbers are for other brands of 
shoes, because that might be a 

848
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,000
data point that helps people 
pick their shoes more 

849
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,440
efficiently. 
Yeah. 

850
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:42,840
So like what position is your 
foot in? 

851
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:45,560
Because you know, everybody 
loves to talk about heel drop, 

852
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,880
but then when you load it, 
things obviously change. 

853
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:50,920
So heel drop is very well, it's 
nice when you're standing. 

854
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,080
It's a totally different story 
when you actually load the 

855
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,480
shoes. 
So actually seeing foot position

856
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,560
in the shoe might be another 
interesting thing to talk about 

857
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,080
if the public can actually 
understand what that means. 

858
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,800
So. 
Yeah. 

859
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:08,160
And yeah, I mean, even taking 
like the X2, for example, so 

860
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:13,960
this is a what, running 
warehouse measured at 4639 

861
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,040
whatever. 
So if there's another 4639 shoe.

862
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,920
Supposedly 7mm drop, yeah. 
Your foot angle is not going to 

863
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,680
be the same in two shoes that 
have the same heel and four foot

864
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,920
drop because it depends on the 
rocker geometry. 

865
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:33,160
It depends on the cradle, it 
depends like how the side wells 

866
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:37,240
are shaped. 
So foot angle really is a metric

867
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:43,080
that I think would be very 
useful to know, but I feel like 

868
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:45,640
I certainly have only heard 
Mizuno talk about it. 

869
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,800
Right. 
I also felt like by the way, the

870
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:54,080
heel drop felt really low in the
Cielo X1 2.0 to me. 

871
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,440
I feel like the original 1 was 
like, OK, this feels 

872
00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,600
approximately like what a 7mm 
drop feels like, but I think the

873
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,760
heel cut out and then how much 
the foam compressed by heel 

874
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,400
strike made the shoe feel not 
uncomfortable. 

875
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,920
It was like, oh, this feels a 
lot lower drop than I was 

876
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,520
expecting where sometimes feel 
like I had to climb out of the 

877
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,160
heel and then it rolled me 
forward really nice. 

878
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,160
But is that something you notice
at all? 

879
00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:18,640
Or no, Just well. 
For me, like if I run in a shoe 

880
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,760
that has a stated like 8 to 10 
mil drop, depending on how the 

881
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,320
heel bevel is designed, I might 
kind of feel like the heels 

882
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,840
getting in the way. 
I definitely didn't feel that 

883
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,080
with this shoe. 
So for me it feels like less 

884
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,440
than 7 simply because I didn't 
notice the heel at all. 

885
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,840
But you know. 
There's like no heel, there's no

886
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,720
heel to get in the way anyway, 
so. 

887
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,640
You know, Yeah, yeah. 
But I would agree like it to me,

888
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:46,200
it ran more like a four to 6mm 
drop shoe. 

889
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,600
Yeah. 
IA 100% agree, which is I mean, 

890
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:51,960
what was it? 
I think the highest heel drop 

891
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,440
shoe in the Hoka lineup is 
actually the new Clifton, which 

892
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:56,920
comes in at 8. 
That's the highest. 

893
00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:02,200
And and before that, I think the
Cielo X1 was the Hyatt 

894
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,840
theoretically said this highest 
static drop of any Hoka at 7mm. 

895
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,280
That was interesting. 
But I would say for those that 

896
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,400
maybe look at that go Oh no, 
like no, it feels pretty well. 

897
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,600
It feels very Hoka esque where 
the, yeah, you're sitting into 

898
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,240
the midsole. 
The midsole is going to 

899
00:46:18,240 --> 00:46:19,880
compress. 
That's this is a lower, this is 

900
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:23,200
not a higher drop shoe. 
So those I think I would 

901
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:26,560
consider from an injury or like 
pathology standpoint that I even

902
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,720
though there's a massive rocker,
this might not be a top choice 

903
00:46:29,720 --> 00:46:30,880
for me. 
If somebody's like, oh, I have 

904
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,640
some Achilles problems, I want 
to be able to like have a rocker

905
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,200
shoe. 
I wouldn't do that because a, if

906
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,000
you do land farther back, you're
going to have to climb out of 

907
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,240
the shoe because it's so soft 
and of course it's not stable. 

908
00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:43,400
So some people have some 
Achilles issues with 

909
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,400
instability. 
This is not going to be a great 

910
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:47,880
option, I think. 
Who do you think? 

911
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,160
I know we might disagree on 
this, but who do you think this 

912
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:54,400
shoe is going to work best for? 
Like in terms of mechanics or in

913
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,920
terms of race distance, or both?
Both, yeah. 

914
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,240
I mean, it's a neutral shoe. 
It worked great for me. 

915
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:04,680
I have, I've sprained my ankles,
you know, probably 100 times. 

916
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:10,360
So if you have a tendency to 
roll your ankles laterally or if

917
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:14,560
you tend to land very far 
lateral, then the medial cut out

918
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,680
of the 2.0 will help you not 
land so far lateral and it will 

919
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:23,440
actually help you potentially 
progress to the medial aspect of

920
00:47:23,440 --> 00:47:25,280
your forefoot and help you push 
off better. 

921
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:31,400
Questionable if it's good for 
even like lateral heel strikers 

922
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,080
simply because of the bevel. 
I mean, at least you've got 

923
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,760
material continuous here, but I 
think the shoe is probably 

924
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:42,040
better for people who naturally 
land further forward. 

925
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:46,600
It's much wider here. 
It's more stable as far as like 

926
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,160
race distance. 
I personally would use it like 

927
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:53,720
5K half marathon. 
I really can't say if I would 

928
00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:57,520
use it for a marathon since I 
haven't ran long enough or at 

929
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:02,200
marathon pace in it to be 
confident in saying either way. 

930
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:07,720
But I suspect maybe not. 
But you know, I can't say 

931
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:09,400
because I don't have the actual 
data. 

932
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,760
I would very much agree with you
on this in terms of the people 

933
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,680
that have any like especially 
kind of farther forward, because

934
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:18,480
when you see shoes that have 
this this like extension on the 

935
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:20,680
lateral side of the forefoot, 
that's great. 

936
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,120
That actually does super well 
for people that go a little bit 

937
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,440
too far lateral, which is the 
opposite of what I do. 

938
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,080
So this is actually really good.
Some people that again, like 

939
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,320
Andrew that maybe go a little 
too far lateral here. 

940
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:33,080
This might be a really good shoe
that kind of pivots you back to 

941
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,000
the middle lateral heel striker.
That's I can't promise you on 

942
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:38,720
that one. 
But I also agree that I think 

943
00:48:38,720 --> 00:48:42,360
this perfect distance for this 
is like 10K to half marathon. 

944
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,400
Even if my mechanics are better,
I don't think I would use this 

945
00:48:45,720 --> 00:48:49,640
for a marathon because it's just
doesn't have that's more stable 

946
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:52,040
enough base. 
And I think a lot like elite 

947
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,160
athlete. 
Yeah, I think people that can 

948
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,360
run in anything, yeah, you're 
going to be, this could be an 

949
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,440
easy marathon shoot. 
But for most people, like the 

950
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,080
recreational runner and the 
sublet runner, I think this is 

951
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,960
going to be a 10K half marathon 
Mac shoe because of how 

952
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:08,880
aggressive it is, to be very 
honest with you. 

953
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:13,200
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of 
like my thoughts on like the 

954
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:17,760
original Alphafly, which like 
that she was so good for me, but

955
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,320
I would never use it for a 
marathon. 

956
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:24,000
And I tried it on several like 
18 to 20 milers. 

957
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,720
It was it's too responsive. 
Like it just it felt like it was

958
00:49:28,720 --> 00:49:33,280
too much for a relatively slower
pace and for that distance. 

959
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:39,800
But I've set literally every PRI
have from 5K to half marathon in

960
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,800
the original alpha fly and would
pay a lot of money if Nike 

961
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,360
brought it back they. 
Do that. 

962
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:49,560
Yeah, we'll see. 
That's another issue we'll have 

963
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:51,560
to talk about at some point 
because remember when I dropped 

964
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:54,560
the comparison review because I 
was just trying to get that 

965
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,480
video out as soon as possible, I
did the Alpha Fly one versus the

966
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:00,160
Alpha Fly 3. 
I did that and Andrew's like, 

967
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,640
no, I totally disagree. 
Like what is wrong with you? 

968
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,600
And so I was like, oh, we should
have done a comparison with that

969
00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,120
too. 
So it ought to be as we, as the 

970
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:13,320
Alpha Fly 4 nears potentially on
to see how that goes. 

971
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,240
Because you found the Alpha Fly 
3 to be more of like what kind 

972
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:18,240
of shoe for you? 
I I haven't you haven't worn it 

973
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,880
that much. 
No, I one, it didn't fit as well

974
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,960
as the original alpha fly, but 2
when they encapsulated the 

975
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,080
Airpods, they just didn't feel 
as responsive as the original 

976
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:35,520
alpha fly 1 And I just it it 
didn't feel that fast to me and 

977
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,160
it gave me black toenails. 
So I also don't like that. 

978
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:42,200
But it just even just the way 
that it performed, it was like, 

979
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:45,760
this is nothing like version 1, 
which is my absolute favorite 

980
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,680
so. 
Version one die hard. 

981
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:52,400
Whereas for me it was like I the
version one because it was so 

982
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,680
low drop. 
I had to climb out of that heel 

983
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:56,560
over the pods. 
It didn't work as well. 

984
00:50:56,800 --> 00:51:00,160
Whereas version 3 was like this 
because I've hit the heel so 

985
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:01,960
hard. 
It was just like this insanely 

986
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:04,760
bouncy thing that I actually 
didn't run in that much. 

987
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,360
I like I got my miles and then 
moved on because I couldn't 

988
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:10,600
control so fast. 
It like scared me and it ruined 

989
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,280
other shoes. 
And then the other thing is of 

990
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:15,800
course I was just destroying the
outsole very quickly. 

991
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:16,720
So I was like. 
Oh. 

992
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,240
Somebody commented on YouTube 
going Nike should pay Matt to be

993
00:51:21,240 --> 00:51:23,480
their durability tester for all 
their shoes. 

994
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:26,760
Yeah, give me 30 miles, the 
outsole will be gone. 

995
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:29,640
Let me, I'll test that actual 
ultimate friction. 

996
00:51:30,720 --> 00:51:33,520
Here is another. 
Thing that you and I are similar

997
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:37,320
and I actually ripped the 
outsole off of a pair of Alfafly

998
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:41,080
ones after only like 20 miles in
them too. 

999
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,960
What? 
This was like I had bought them 

1000
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:46,680
myself. 
It wasn't like they had sent 

1001
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:48,680
them to me for review and I 
bought them from Running 

1002
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,680
Warehouse. 
So I sent them a picture of it 

1003
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:52,440
and Running Warehouse replaced 
them for me. 

1004
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,880
Oh sweet. 
That's yeah, yeah. 

1005
00:51:54,880 --> 00:52:00,000
But like the whole like this, 
that makes sense, ripped off. 

1006
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:02,400
And I have no idea how that 
happened. 

1007
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,280
Like maybe it was a defective 
pair, but yeah. 

1008
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,680
And it was like 2 miles into a 
workout and I was like, what's 

1009
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:11,520
under underneath my foot? 
And there was just like this. 

1010
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:15,080
It was hanging there and I still
had a workout to do, so I ripped

1011
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:18,560
it off and finished the workout.
So you don't actually need that,

1012
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:20,760
Yeah. 
I've done that so many times 

1013
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,960
where it's like having a flat 
tire where like the tires really

1014
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,160
loose and you keep scuffing it 
like this sucks. 

1015
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,440
I know exactly what's happened 
and I got a chunk hanging off. 

1016
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:31,960
This happens all the time to me.
Like, oh man. 

1017
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,440
Bummer. 
That's a bummer, all right. 

1018
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:38,000
So believe it or not, we 
actually had more in common as 

1019
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,240
we discovered, we actually look 
at that Andrea is actually part 

1020
00:52:41,240 --> 00:52:44,160
of the Shoe Destroyer Club, 
whether she wants to admit it or

1021
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:45,400
not. 
That's true. 

1022
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:49,040
We hope that some of this banter
as we are trying, this is partly

1023
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:51,680
us trying to share our expertise
of what we're experiencing, but 

1024
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,160
also sharing the questions that 
we have as we're going through 

1025
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:56,600
this, as we try to learn and 
going, there's new stuff coming 

1026
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,280
out. 
How is this working for people? 

1027
00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,000
How is this working for us as 
individuals? 

1028
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:02,560
So we really, really hope, hope 
this helps you because we do 

1029
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:05,600
this for all we do it because 
we're shoe geeks, but we also 

1030
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:07,840
really talk about it and share 
because we want all of you to 

1031
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,480
learn from this and get better 
and figure out what works best 

1032
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,040
for you as an individual. 
Lots of data is showing that 

1033
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,040
people are really, really unique
and specific. 

1034
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:18,160
So if we could help give a 
little data point for you to 

1035
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:20,080
Start learning. 
That's the whole point of this. 

1036
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:23,240
So as always, you can find us on
a bunch of different channels. 

1037
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:27,200
The videos that we do here can 
be found in Audio Farm on 

1038
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:30,040
Spotify, iTunes. 
You can see the video come out 

1039
00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:31,720
on YouTube, which I always get 
this right. 

1040
00:53:31,720 --> 00:53:34,760
Does do we release this is on 
Wednesday Sunday release it's 

1041
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:36,520
Wednesday released the video 
right? 

1042
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:40,160
No audio on Wednesday, video on 
Sunday. 

1043
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,200
It's like we've been doing this 
for several years, Bach, don't 

1044
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:44,520
get mad at me. 
So. 

1045
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,400
Oh. 
He's audio you're don't worry. 

1046
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:48,000
He has plenty of reasons to be 
mad at me. 

1047
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:51,040
So audio will always come out on
Wednesday and the video comes 

1048
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,560
out on Sunday. 
You can find us also in many 

1049
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:55,440
different areas. 
We also are on obviously the 

1050
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,880
darkest running website. 
You can find us on Instagram, 

1051
00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,240
Facebook, LinkedIn, all those 
different areas. 

1052
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:02,680
And of course on Strava. 
We're trying to log over miles. 

1053
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,320
We really appreciate you 
following along and as always, 

1054
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,240
hope this really helps you 
figure out what works best for 

1055
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:09,400
you because we are also trying 
to do the same.