1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,800 Many people think we're only about shoes that doctors are 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,400 running, but that would be wrong because we're also all about 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:07,200 socks. We're thankful that our friends 4 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:09,480 at Running Warehouse carry all of our favorite brands, from 5 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:12,040 features to Belaga and Swiftwick to dry Max. 6 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,880 With fall coming, we're excited to get our long socks out for 7 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,440 some crisp, cool days ahead. The Swiftwick Aspire 4 is a team 8 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:20,320 wide favorite. 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The sock in the Inferno Marino 13 00:00:30,950 --> 00:00:33,790 Wool socks provide both warmth and supersoft comfort that 14 00:00:33,790 --> 00:00:35,430 you'll want to keep on long after your run. 15 00:00:35,670 --> 00:00:38,990 For less than $25 a three pack, it's our content Wizard box best 16 00:00:38,990 --> 00:00:40,830 kept secret to comfortable winter running. 17 00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:43,230 Find your next pair at runningwarehouse.com. 18 00:00:47,150 --> 00:00:49,710 Hello everyone and welcome to the Doctors Running Podcast 19 00:00:49,710 --> 00:00:52,150 where we, a group of doctors of physical therapy, discuss the 20 00:00:52,190 --> 00:00:54,350 art and science of running and the stuff that we put on our 21 00:00:54,350 --> 00:00:56,270 feet. Today I'll be hosting. 22 00:00:56,270 --> 00:00:59,950 I'm Nathan Brown and we have Dr. Matthew Klein here with us and 23 00:00:59,950 --> 00:01:02,830 we are so excited to dive into a mailbag episode. 24 00:01:03,030 --> 00:01:07,070 We got so many questions from you all, so many that we cannot. 25 00:01:07,590 --> 00:01:10,030 Even get close to filling this episode with all the questions 26 00:01:10,030 --> 00:01:11,950 that you have. We've packed it with the stuff 27 00:01:11,950 --> 00:01:14,710 that kind of came to the top of the list as we sifted through it 28 00:01:14,710 --> 00:01:16,110 all. But thank you all for submitting 29 00:01:16,110 --> 00:01:18,270 your questions. We're going to keep going back 30 00:01:18,270 --> 00:01:20,790 to the ones that have been submitted until we hopefully 31 00:01:20,790 --> 00:01:24,150 someday answer them all either through here or We put out a 32 00:01:24,150 --> 00:01:27,870 weekly, what we call a shakeout on Mondays where we give quick 33 00:01:27,870 --> 00:01:30,110 thoughts on a topic of interest to one of us. 34 00:01:30,310 --> 00:01:34,670 And we can use your questions to spark what we talk about in 35 00:01:34,670 --> 00:01:36,750 those Monday shakeout, so you can check those out on doctors 36 00:01:36,750 --> 00:01:39,910 running calm. Anyway, we have a really, I 37 00:01:39,910 --> 00:01:42,310 would call it a pretty spicy group of questions today. 38 00:01:42,310 --> 00:01:45,110 And I would say this is going to be more of a discussion and 39 00:01:45,110 --> 00:01:47,470 brainstorming through some of these things because there are 40 00:01:47,470 --> 00:01:50,150 too many nuances within these questions for us to give 41 00:01:50,270 --> 00:01:53,030 straight up answers. But you you'll be able to join 42 00:01:53,030 --> 00:01:55,430 us in the thought processing journey of the type of questions 43 00:01:55,430 --> 00:01:58,550 we would be asking ourselves and what conclusions we might come 44 00:01:58,550 --> 00:02:00,190 to. So we're pretty excited about 45 00:02:00,190 --> 00:02:01,670 that. As always, we have our 46 00:02:01,670 --> 00:02:05,310 subjective question of the week, and this week is in the mailbag 47 00:02:05,310 --> 00:02:09,070 realm, please. What we want you to do this week 48 00:02:09,070 --> 00:02:10,830 is what questions do you want us to talk about? 49 00:02:10,830 --> 00:02:13,030 What questions do you have? So put them down below. 50 00:02:13,030 --> 00:02:15,670 They can be about running shoes. They can be about rehabilitation 51 00:02:15,670 --> 00:02:17,790 and running injuries. They could be about running and 52 00:02:17,790 --> 00:02:20,470 dad life. Whatever it is, you can put 53 00:02:20,470 --> 00:02:23,270 those below and we're happy to have you to talk about them. 54 00:02:24,030 --> 00:02:26,910 Speaking of running and dad life, Matt, how has sleeping 55 00:02:26,910 --> 00:02:29,790 been for you a couple weeks into having a new little in your 56 00:02:29,790 --> 00:02:31,110 home? Not great. 57 00:02:31,430 --> 00:02:34,750 She's a little over 3 weeks old, not sleeping a ton because she 58 00:02:34,750 --> 00:02:38,250 likes to wake up multiple times a night to feed, and I am on 59 00:02:38,250 --> 00:02:39,930 diaper beauty to try to support my wife. 60 00:02:40,410 --> 00:02:42,010 I am not capable of breastfeeding. 61 00:02:42,210 --> 00:02:44,610 I have not tried, but I'm pretty sure I'm not capable. 62 00:02:44,610 --> 00:02:45,730 Would not want to do that to my daughter. 63 00:02:45,730 --> 00:02:49,450 So yeah, not sleeping a ton. Definitely up in the caffeine 64 00:02:49,450 --> 00:02:51,930 intake. For those who may have heard 65 00:02:52,330 --> 00:02:56,290 Bach and some others reference this, yes, it's true that I put 66 00:02:56,290 --> 00:02:59,650 the scratch recovery coffee in coffee. 67 00:03:00,130 --> 00:03:02,410 I think I'm having to do double doses of that right now. 68 00:03:02,410 --> 00:03:06,240 So if I fall asleep and fall, I'm on a Swiss ball right now. 69 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:08,040 For those who don't know, that's what I always sit on. 70 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:10,840 So if you see me bouncing or that stuff if I fall off, I'm 71 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:12,760 sorry. But at least this should be an 72 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:15,320 entertaining episode. These questions are super spicy, 73 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,160 by the way. There should be a good episode. 74 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:20,880 Felt to see it. A lot of like should be, but 75 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,920 it'll be fun. My brain's at like 25% capacity 76 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:25,520 right now. It's perfect. 77 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,400 That makes it more, even more fun those early, those early 78 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,920 weeks and months they they can feel like they're dragging on. 79 00:03:33,380 --> 00:03:35,820 I mean, we're out of that fog right now having a four and a 80 00:03:35,820 --> 00:03:39,700 six year old, but it can be pretty draining mentally and 81 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:42,700 just all your systems kind of just like come down a level. 82 00:03:42,740 --> 00:03:44,620 Yeah. So, but we're here with you, 83 00:03:44,660 --> 00:03:45,300 Matt. Thank you. 84 00:03:45,380 --> 00:03:48,020 We're excited to have you here, Okay. 85 00:03:48,790 --> 00:03:50,550 So we're going to start off with our first question which is a 86 00:03:50,550 --> 00:03:53,190 very classic, let's compare some shoes kind of questions. 87 00:03:53,350 --> 00:03:57,470 Kuya is asking, please compare the ASICS Magic Speed Three 88 00:03:57,590 --> 00:04:01,750 against the Boston 12 and against the Hoka Mach X. 89 00:04:01,870 --> 00:04:05,550 So Matt, this is a question I'm going to mainly put in your camp 90 00:04:05,550 --> 00:04:07,870 just because I have not used the Magic Speed three. 91 00:04:07,990 --> 00:04:10,350 So why don't you give us a little bit of comparison between 92 00:04:10,350 --> 00:04:13,270 those three models, all of which have some kind of played in 93 00:04:13,270 --> 00:04:17,910 them, have some form of the kind of super critical foam of some 94 00:04:17,910 --> 00:04:19,910 kind? Infused within there. 95 00:04:20,029 --> 00:04:21,870 Tell us a little bit about your experience in these shoes. 96 00:04:21,870 --> 00:04:23,070 Yeah, that's a really great question. 97 00:04:23,110 --> 00:04:27,110 I think that the Boston 12 and the Mach X are directly 98 00:04:27,110 --> 00:04:29,550 comparable. The Magic speed three is in a 99 00:04:29,550 --> 00:04:31,950 little bit different realm and there's kind of a couple reasons 100 00:04:31,950 --> 00:04:34,710 for that. One, this is the only one that 101 00:04:34,710 --> 00:04:36,550 has a full length carbon fiber plate. 102 00:04:36,550 --> 00:04:40,030 The Boston has rods and the Mach, although it's still really 103 00:04:40,030 --> 00:04:42,230 stiff, has a P backs plate in it. 104 00:04:42,230 --> 00:04:44,870 So it's not carbon. It's still just as if we'll get 105 00:04:44,870 --> 00:04:46,990 in that a second. The Magic Speed Three is the 106 00:04:46,990 --> 00:04:48,630 lightest of the three, I would say. 107 00:04:48,790 --> 00:04:52,590 This one is the true racer lightweight trainer of the 108 00:04:52,590 --> 00:04:54,270 group, and it's definitely the stiffest. 109 00:04:54,270 --> 00:04:55,910 It's not something I would normally do a ton of 110 00:04:55,910 --> 00:04:57,550 lightweight, but I was on. It's something like going, hey, 111 00:04:57,790 --> 00:05:01,910 I don't necessarily want a super foam, but I want something stiff 112 00:05:01,950 --> 00:05:03,470 and to do workouts and things like that. 113 00:05:03,470 --> 00:05:06,590 Or if a super shoe isn't working out for me, this is a really 114 00:05:06,590 --> 00:05:10,230 great alternative that still has that really stiff ride. 115 00:05:10,230 --> 00:05:11,350 Nathan, you were going to say something? 116 00:05:12,190 --> 00:05:16,190 Yeah, that one's just coming in at 7.8 oz or 220 grams for men's 117 00:05:16,190 --> 00:05:21,030 size. 96.6 ounces are 186 grams for women's size 8, and the 118 00:05:21,030 --> 00:05:25,110 stack on that is 36 millimeters in heel and 29 in the four foot. 119 00:05:25,110 --> 00:05:27,150 So yeah, you got that under 8 oz. 120 00:05:27,150 --> 00:05:30,870 Yeah, comparable stack height wise weights just it's almost, 121 00:05:30,910 --> 00:05:33,720 it's like an ounce and a half lighter than the other two. 122 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:36,520 So this is of the three of them. So I was going to go race this 123 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:40,120 would be my racing flat, whereas the other two are kind of more 124 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,640 of your lightweight trainers, plated trainers that are have 125 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:48,840 some super foams in them be it the Light Strike Pro or Hoka's 126 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,760 PEBA Pebax foam here. So you're getting the 127 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,080 combination of plates and half super foams in them, but they're 128 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:57,960 a little bit heavier ever being relative in that like 9:00-ish 129 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,280 oz range where these are going to be a little more versatile 130 00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:04,120 into training. I especially like the Boston for 131 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:07,440 training in the mock is a little bit stiff for me, but broken 132 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,880 really nicely as shoes that can handle workouts but also handle 133 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,600 daily training for those who want to be able to do it. 134 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,880 So I put them in a little bit different realm. 135 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:24,030 Uppers are completely mock Mock X and the magic Speed three are 136 00:06:24,030 --> 00:06:25,870 so much similar. It's kind of got like slightly 137 00:06:25,870 --> 00:06:28,430 short snug upper, whereas the Boston has a little bit more 138 00:06:28,430 --> 00:06:30,470 room for me. But I think that's the biggest 139 00:06:30,470 --> 00:06:32,670 difference. Again, is kind of their purpose, 140 00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:35,470 where the Magic CB3 is definitely in that racing realm 141 00:06:35,470 --> 00:06:38,350 where these are kind of halfway in, it halfway out. 142 00:06:38,430 --> 00:06:41,070 These are probably going to work better for training purposes if 143 00:06:41,070 --> 00:06:42,950 people are interested, whereas the magic speeds can be a little 144 00:06:42,950 --> 00:06:47,190 bit more racer type and certainly is the stiffest of the 145 00:06:47,190 --> 00:06:48,720 three of them. Yeah. 146 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:53,000 And what's interesting is the weights between the Mach X and 147 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,520 the odd zero or the Boston 12 are exactly the same. 148 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:01,760 Yeah, 9.4 ounces in men's, 8 ounces in women's and the same 149 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:05,720 amount of grams, so 267 in men's and 227 in women, so. 150 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:08,740 Yeah, very similar and they both have that little bit of the 151 00:07:08,740 --> 00:07:12,260 infusion of their top end foam from a P bat like to have a bit 152 00:07:12,260 --> 00:07:15,820 of that P backs foam in them but then have a you know a carriage 153 00:07:15,820 --> 00:07:18,900 without it. So it is really interesting and 154 00:07:20,220 --> 00:07:23,060 like I said, I haven't I've gotten I have ran in the in the 155 00:07:23,060 --> 00:07:25,460 Magic speed 3 but not a ton. But I think what's interesting 156 00:07:25,460 --> 00:07:28,100 about that shoes it's the lightest one but it also is the 157 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:30,260 only one without it doesn't have turbo in. 158 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:32,820 It doesn't have flight foam, turbo just has blast plus. 159 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:37,970 And so it doesn't have your nylon or PEBA based kind of foam 160 00:07:37,970 --> 00:07:41,170 in it, but it has that super lightweight feel to it, whereas 161 00:07:41,170 --> 00:07:43,810 these other ones kind of have that trainer esque. 162 00:07:44,050 --> 00:07:46,250 I personally, I know I'm different than everyone else on 163 00:07:46,250 --> 00:07:49,090 the team so far, but my favorite runs in the Boston have been my 164 00:07:49,090 --> 00:07:51,410 long runs and not so much my workouts. 165 00:07:52,250 --> 00:07:55,370 And part of that was probably the nature of my training cycle 166 00:07:55,370 --> 00:07:58,490 when I was testing the shoe was I wasn't doing as many hard 167 00:07:58,490 --> 00:08:00,170 workouts and building towards anything. 168 00:08:01,270 --> 00:08:04,990 But I was getting a lot of, you know, 1213 mile runs in the 169 00:08:04,990 --> 00:08:08,350 Boston and I thought it rolled along really nicely and I think 170 00:08:08,350 --> 00:08:11,630 the little bit more flexibility in that shoe in my opinion than 171 00:08:11,630 --> 00:08:14,870 the Mock X. So I just, I felt like it could 172 00:08:15,670 --> 00:08:18,510 go a little bit slower, a little bit easier, whereas the Mock X, 173 00:08:18,630 --> 00:08:21,510 if I went too slow, it felt a little bit too stiff to just 174 00:08:21,510 --> 00:08:22,990 kind of plot along. I don't know if you had a 175 00:08:22,990 --> 00:08:26,230 similar experience. Yeah, I I did have the same 176 00:08:26,230 --> 00:08:30,380 thing where easy miles was kind of difficult in the Mock X until 177 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:34,620 it broke in a little bit. But before like before before it 178 00:08:34,620 --> 00:08:37,700 broke in, yeah, I was just it's better for up tempo stuff, 179 00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:40,940 whereas Boston it can handle more of that easier and longer 180 00:08:40,940 --> 00:08:45,820 effort stuff. And then I again of all of them, 181 00:08:46,060 --> 00:08:48,460 the magic speed is a little tough to do easy stuff in just 182 00:08:48,460 --> 00:08:52,020 because it is so stiff as well. So stiffness wise, the Mach X 183 00:08:52,020 --> 00:08:54,780 and the magic speed 3 might be fairly comparable despite having 184 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:58,940 two different types of plates. Yeah, I I agree there and I 185 00:08:58,940 --> 00:09:01,460 think it's. It's kind of going to come down 186 00:09:01,460 --> 00:09:03,420 to a little bit of personal preference on how much of A 187 00:09:03,420 --> 00:09:07,340 rocker you want, how much flexibility you want and and 188 00:09:07,340 --> 00:09:10,100 what you want the shoe for. I do think something else that's 189 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:12,940 interesting in terms of fit. I think that they have different 190 00:09:12,940 --> 00:09:16,180 types of uppers, but they both are on the more snug side, 191 00:09:16,180 --> 00:09:17,740 especially when it comes to volume. 192 00:09:17,740 --> 00:09:20,940 I feel like the Boston 12 is a little bit, you know, shallow 193 00:09:20,940 --> 00:09:23,340 when it comes to height within the toe box. 194 00:09:23,540 --> 00:09:26,780 I would say the same is true for the mock accident, and it has a 195 00:09:26,780 --> 00:09:29,620 pretty classic hoka, a little bit more narrow fit to it. 196 00:09:30,060 --> 00:09:34,260 Right now and that's one thing I'd love cleaned up on both of 197 00:09:34,260 --> 00:09:37,900 those is, is that is the fit and having a little bit more room. 198 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:40,940 You can still get a really nice lock in, but I think you'll run 199 00:09:40,940 --> 00:09:42,980 into similar issues from a fit standpoint. 200 00:09:42,980 --> 00:09:46,220 But if you are looking for slightly more room, I I verged 201 00:09:46,220 --> 00:09:49,100 towards the Boston 12, I think it opened up a little bit more 202 00:09:49,380 --> 00:09:51,700 though I personally am not a fan of the lacing system. 203 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:53,260 I just found it kind of confusing. 204 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:55,740 It's got this, yeah, I wouldn't even know how to describe it. 205 00:09:55,740 --> 00:09:58,860 It's almost like a cage on each side that holds them and. 206 00:09:59,450 --> 00:10:00,850 I don't know. I think you could simplify it 207 00:10:00,850 --> 00:10:02,850 and it can be just as effective. Agreed. 208 00:10:03,090 --> 00:10:04,650 Anything else on this comparison here? 209 00:10:04,730 --> 00:10:06,370 I'd say we pretty pretty much hit it. 210 00:10:06,410 --> 00:10:09,890 I would say that the to be honest with you, the the Boston 211 00:10:09,890 --> 00:10:15,730 12 Mock X and they Canvara Pro are probably better comparisons 212 00:10:15,730 --> 00:10:18,170 than the magic because the magic speed of three is in a little 213 00:10:18,170 --> 00:10:21,770 bit different realm personally. But yeah, did our best. 214 00:10:21,770 --> 00:10:24,860 I'd agree, yeah. I'd agree I think And then of 215 00:10:24,860 --> 00:10:28,620 those the Kinvar Pro is still the outlier in that group of 216 00:10:28,620 --> 00:10:32,740 three too just cuz it is a little bit higher and it is so 217 00:10:32,740 --> 00:10:36,980 stiff. That one's this is like, it's I 218 00:10:36,980 --> 00:10:43,940 almost can't bend that or the strung to the definitely strong 219 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:45,300 is totally different. Yeah. 220 00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:48,220 What's that shoe called? Why am I blanking? 221 00:10:48,460 --> 00:10:50,300 I'm sleeping. Why can't I think of the name of 222 00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,180 that shoe? Oh, my Convira pearls are right 223 00:10:52,180 --> 00:10:53,340 in front of my face. Yeah. 224 00:10:55,220 --> 00:10:59,340 What's the Adidas shoe called? Why am I blanking the strung? 225 00:10:59,780 --> 00:11:01,660 What's the first part of the Primax? 226 00:11:01,740 --> 00:11:03,060 Primax. Yeah, Yeah. 227 00:11:03,540 --> 00:11:06,980 Primax, I don't know why I couldn't think of that, but that 228 00:11:06,980 --> 00:11:08,980 one, you can't bend that in your hands either. 229 00:11:08,980 --> 00:11:10,100 I don't know if you have luck with it. 230 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:12,460 You might be stronger than me, but that there's two carbon 231 00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:13,940 plates in here. You can't bend that. 232 00:11:13,940 --> 00:11:16,460 There's no way. And there's what, 43 1/2 233 00:11:16,820 --> 00:11:18,220 millimeters of stack height in the Fort? 234 00:11:18,220 --> 00:11:20,420 There's no way, yeah. It's crazy. 235 00:11:20,580 --> 00:11:22,500 If you bend it more, you'll break it and be like, oh, I just 236 00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:23,900 broke a $300.00 shoe. Good job. 237 00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:27,180 Yeah, cool. All right, we're gonna move on 238 00:11:27,180 --> 00:11:29,420 to our next question. This is Gustav from Sweden. 239 00:11:29,940 --> 00:11:33,780 They have two questions and we're gonna kind of try to 240 00:11:33,780 --> 00:11:36,620 tackle them both. But the first one is a unique 241 00:11:36,620 --> 00:11:38,740 one to what we usually talk about on the podcast. 242 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:42,820 It says can you see with your eyes that a young child may have 243 00:11:42,820 --> 00:11:46,670 stability, needs and shoes? My daughter who is 2 1/2 years 244 00:11:46,670 --> 00:11:50,110 old, leans heavily on her medial side when standing still 245 00:11:50,110 --> 00:11:52,310 barefoot. And I know that standing and 246 00:11:52,310 --> 00:11:55,870 walking are not the same thing. So this kind of is a multiple 247 00:11:55,870 --> 00:11:59,550 part question and this is a one that huge caveat of like this is 248 00:11:59,550 --> 00:12:03,310 not medical advice here, but they're kind of wondering, can 249 00:12:03,310 --> 00:12:06,550 you tell visually if a kid has stability needs or not? 250 00:12:07,550 --> 00:12:09,990 And then he's giving his anecdote of his daughter. 251 00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:12,230 So what are your what's your reaction to that question? 252 00:12:12,350 --> 00:12:15,350 My immediate reaction is going, this person needs to to be 253 00:12:15,350 --> 00:12:21,110 evaluated by a pediatric physiotherapist just because 254 00:12:21,270 --> 00:12:24,630 there are this is going to be outside of my expertise despite 255 00:12:24,630 --> 00:12:26,190 having done some pediatric stuff. 256 00:12:26,590 --> 00:12:28,910 When it comes to kids and shoes, yes. 257 00:12:28,910 --> 00:12:32,310 So you're talking like this kids problem unless there's something 258 00:12:32,310 --> 00:12:33,790 else going on. This kid has probably been 259 00:12:33,790 --> 00:12:37,190 walking for at least a year, if not a year, probably a year and 260 00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:39,910 a half. So you know there is a 261 00:12:39,910 --> 00:12:42,470 possibility that this could go away and maybe you don't need to 262 00:12:42,470 --> 00:12:47,860 do anything, but visually yes, if you do a gait analysis and 263 00:12:47,860 --> 00:12:50,700 you see it impacting things up the chain. 264 00:12:51,060 --> 00:12:55,260 But I'm I would you need to have someone who is trained in this 265 00:12:55,260 --> 00:12:58,980 to figure out what is there are is it impacting other things and 266 00:12:58,980 --> 00:13:02,300 then to actually treat it so like tape something or put a 267 00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:04,100 little like a mini orthotic in there. 268 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:06,500 There's a lot of pediatric clinics, at least the ones that 269 00:13:06,540 --> 00:13:10,580 I got to do when I was in my rotations, where you have like 270 00:13:10,580 --> 00:13:13,440 small little orthotics you can actually like put in there to 271 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,160 see, hey, does this change things? 272 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,200 That's not something you're going to have over the counter 273 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,800 at home. And I would also, you know, ask 274 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,400 the kid, hey, is it impacting the rest of their body? 275 00:13:23,680 --> 00:13:26,560 Is it actually bothering them? Are they walking less so they're 276 00:13:26,560 --> 00:13:30,280 looking like they're in pain? If not, I'd probably say leave 277 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,160 it alone because kids are pretty adaptable and they'll a lot of 278 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:34,480 times kind of work through that stuff. 279 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,040 But if it looks like it's affecting things up higher, then 280 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,000 I would really get her evaluated, because this is going 281 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,560 to need somebody who's actually trained in this stuff. 282 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,440 Is that a fair answer? Yeah my basically my my answer 283 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,620 to this was going to be. Make sure that either your 284 00:13:50,620 --> 00:13:55,140 pediatrician or then also you have eyes on it from from a 285 00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:57,420 pediatric PT. And so I know in the United 286 00:13:57,420 --> 00:14:01,500 States there are specialization exams for pediatric physical 287 00:14:01,500 --> 00:14:03,260 therapy. I don't know exactly how it 288 00:14:03,260 --> 00:14:07,420 works in Sweden, but I would, I would find somebody from a 289 00:14:07,420 --> 00:14:12,260 movement specialist standpoint just to get a look at it and if 290 00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:15,980 it's again, if it hits into that category of there seems to be 291 00:14:15,980 --> 00:14:19,220 concerns that she's not playing a lot or she's, you know she's 292 00:14:19,220 --> 00:14:20,660 changed. She used to be playing a lot and 293 00:14:20,660 --> 00:14:24,660 now she's avoiding play or we she can't last as long or she's 294 00:14:24,660 --> 00:14:26,700 falling or you're just noticing other things. 295 00:14:26,860 --> 00:14:30,180 I would say that's when you definitely go see somebody, but 296 00:14:30,180 --> 00:14:33,820 if it's just you're noticing it and there's no problems, check 297 00:14:33,820 --> 00:14:38,420 in with your with your pediatrician at your check up 298 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:40,180 and then see if they have any recommendations. 299 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:43,380 But in general we know that static. 300 00:14:44,170 --> 00:14:47,530 And dynamic assessments look very different and it may not 301 00:14:47,530 --> 00:14:49,130 tell you exactly what you need in your shoes. 302 00:14:49,130 --> 00:14:52,250 But again, this would be a if you're concerned, go talk to 303 00:14:52,250 --> 00:14:54,570 somebody. This podcast will be very 304 00:14:54,570 --> 00:14:56,210 insufficient and being able to guide you. 305 00:14:56,770 --> 00:15:00,970 Very good. Your second question from Gustav 306 00:15:01,130 --> 00:15:04,370 was that you're you said I'm starting to find that I have 307 00:15:04,370 --> 00:15:07,690 different stability needs on my right versus my left foot. 308 00:15:07,970 --> 00:15:10,850 Right now I'm frequently lace locking my right shoe, but not 309 00:15:10,850 --> 00:15:13,400 my left. Since I'm having trouble locking 310 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,360 down my right heel properly, it feels like it's turning outwards 311 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,720 with the medial heel climbing upwards and resting on the edge 312 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,720 of the insole and up on the side wall or heel counter of the 313 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,480 shoe. Anything I can do about this 314 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,160 besides tightening my shoe harder or replacing them? 315 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,600 I'm currently using the A6 GT 2011 S with 40 miles on them, so 316 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:37,240 the shoes are not old. So this goes back to when I 317 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:39,760 worked in running stores and I was very fortunate to work at 318 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:42,680 places like fit Right Northwest and foot traffic in Portland 319 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,160 where it wasn't about hey how much can we sell but really 320 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,360 helping people. So there are a lot. 321 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,880 They're actually lacing techniques besides lace lock in 322 00:15:50,880 --> 00:15:54,640 the shoe that you can use to actually pull the medial side of 323 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:58,360 the upper a little bit more and provide a little bit more 324 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:01,200 supports. Maybe not the right word, but I 325 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,690 guess in this case it might be. And you don't have to do the 326 00:16:04,690 --> 00:16:08,050 same thing on each shoe. People's feet are different side 327 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:09,650 to side. It's unfortunate Brooks used to 328 00:16:09,650 --> 00:16:13,090 do like for example, people's feet aren't the same size side 329 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:14,730 to side usually. It's actually fairly rare to 330 00:16:14,730 --> 00:16:16,490 have feet that are truly the same size. 331 00:16:16,770 --> 00:16:19,650 So Brooks used to do something where they'd actually sell 332 00:16:19,890 --> 00:16:22,570 different size shoes to people. You just special order them, but 333 00:16:22,570 --> 00:16:25,020 they don't do that anymore. So unfortunately this doesn't 334 00:16:25,020 --> 00:16:26,940 get a lot of common knowledge, but what you're experiencing 335 00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:29,260 isn't abnormal. It's it's normal to have a 336 00:16:29,260 --> 00:16:31,820 little bit more weight to load one side, a little bit more, 337 00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:33,700 have some different motion on one side versus the other. 338 00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:36,460 It's just challenging because a lot of footwear isn't really 339 00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:40,260 made that way. And the ASIC GT 2011 is the new 340 00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:44,140 one changes that and I really love the 12, but the 11 still a 341 00:16:44,140 --> 00:16:46,380 little more traditional where it's pretty much got a post. 342 00:16:46,380 --> 00:16:49,600 There's not a ton of crazy stuff there in terms of like like 343 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:51,760 adaptive stability is what I would call that. 344 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,040 So if your G2000 elevens are still working and you like them, 345 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,560 you can still like take there's. There's some techniques out 346 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,840 there you can use to pull the upper using lacing a little bit 347 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:06,240 more toward the lateral side and just to give a little bit more 348 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,560 structure on that medial side, especially in that medial heel. 349 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:15,160 But if that's something you're really concerned about, some of 350 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,240 the newer shoes that have what I would call more adaptive to like 351 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,280 something like the sockety Tempest or some of these things 352 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:24,800 that use newer methods of stability that kind of like when 353 00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:27,520 you roll into it, if you need it, you'll be okay, but if you 354 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,480 don't need it, you won't. Are actually might be some good 355 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:33,160 options because the new adaptive stuff is great because if you 356 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:37,440 need it, which on one foot you might and 1 foot you might not, 357 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,640 it it does really, really well. I think the GT 2012 does a good 358 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:43,640 job of this. But to prevent you from needing 359 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,120 to go Oh my gosh, I have to go spend some more money, I would 360 00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:51,160 try a lacing technique and you should feel totally fine doing 361 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,120 this on one side versus not on the other. 362 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:55,800 Because Please remember again, your feet are different side to 363 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,240 side and they are certainly different between people. 364 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,000 That's what makes footwear design so difficult. 365 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,200 I think what's interesting too about the. 366 00:18:04,980 --> 00:18:07,060 This question too is even the way it's worded. 367 00:18:07,060 --> 00:18:09,980 So finding that I have different stability needs, yeah. 368 00:18:09,980 --> 00:18:13,700 And I think that that's even a do you have needs for stability 369 00:18:13,740 --> 00:18:16,880 or is it some other sort of? Experience. 370 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:21,000 And so I I think I I have a lot of questions regarding regarding 371 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,880 this situation and just kind of what what your actual 372 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,200 experiences Gustav like when you're actually running and what 373 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,840 it even more about what it feels like and if you're running into 374 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,960 any issues. And then doing a gate analysis 375 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,560 and looking at what may be actually happening or not. 376 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,160 Because sometimes what we feel and what's actually happening in 377 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,040 motion are different. We know that from at least from 378 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,520 foot strike, we know that people are very poor at understanding 379 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,840 where what part of their foot is actually landing first. 380 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,960 But I think it's I think that's an interesting part of this 381 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,800 question is kind of like what's what might be really going on 382 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:55,960 versus what you're feeling and what could be contributing and 383 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,560 are they even problematic or not as Matt was alluding to. 384 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,040 I think the second part is you know you're talking about your 385 00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,040 foot rolling into what we would consider at least a part of 386 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:07,720 supination and that's so much peronation when we think about 387 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,280 like posts and classic stability quote UN quote stability needs, 388 00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:14,480 often we talk about building up structure on the inside or the 389 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:19,760 medial side of the shoe to. Change the how, how much, or how 390 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,120 quickly or how long you stay in a pronation moment or pronation 391 00:19:24,120 --> 00:19:26,640 state. And again, as we've said a 392 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,600 million times per nation is not the enemy. 393 00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:32,630 But I think for you, you have the other direction where you 394 00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:34,550 are. It sounds like you're describing 395 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:37,270 a rolling out words which would be a part of supination or E 396 00:19:37,270 --> 00:19:40,430 version and so that changes kind of what type of shoe like you 397 00:19:40,430 --> 00:19:42,670 don't. You know a shoe with a classic 398 00:19:42,670 --> 00:19:44,470 post may or may not be what you need. 399 00:19:44,710 --> 00:19:47,110 Maybe just something with more cushioning that allows your foot 400 00:19:47,110 --> 00:19:51,950 to move into pronation more could end up being your your 401 00:19:52,190 --> 00:19:54,190 direction that you would go potentially with trying your 402 00:19:54,190 --> 00:19:57,650 next shoes so. Again, we don't know what's 403 00:19:57,650 --> 00:20:01,370 really going on, but you know you could go 2 directions with 404 00:20:01,370 --> 00:20:03,770 what what you end up trying for your next shoes. 405 00:20:03,770 --> 00:20:07,370 But again, I think normalization of the reality of differences 406 00:20:07,370 --> 00:20:10,930 side to side is going to be a reality for all of us. 407 00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:14,630 And it might not be problematic. And just again, still finding 408 00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:16,790 those shoes that feel comfortable on both feet, which 409 00:20:16,790 --> 00:20:19,030 if it's dramatically different can be a little bit more of a 410 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:20,710 challenge. Any more thoughts on this one, 411 00:20:20,710 --> 00:20:22,750 Matt? No, yeah, I'm still, yeah, you 412 00:20:22,790 --> 00:20:24,470 mentioned a great point. I was a little confused when 413 00:20:24,470 --> 00:20:26,870 they said it meant outwards. Like, is that the foot turning 414 00:20:26,870 --> 00:20:29,150 outwards? Is it the heel coming out? 415 00:20:29,150 --> 00:20:31,910 So yeah, I think it's gonna depend on. 416 00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:37,300 Is this causing you issues? Like pain symptoms preventing 417 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,100 you from running? Or is just a unique part of your 418 00:20:39,100 --> 00:20:40,900 biomechanics. And then the other part is where 419 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:43,220 is it being driven by right? Is it actually coming from the 420 00:20:43,220 --> 00:20:44,620 foot and ankle? Is it coming up higher? 421 00:20:45,540 --> 00:20:47,180 That makes them more difficult, but I think. 422 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,120 I'm still going along the lines of do you actually have 423 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:55,040 stability needs or do you need issue unlike the GT 2011 that 424 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,320 actually is more kind of like stable, neutral or more centered 425 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,040 like guidance space that just kind of keeps you in the middle. 426 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:02,680 We don't know. This is going to be something 427 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,960 that hopefully you provide you information and you can go and 428 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,920 explore and go, hey, what does work for me, which is the whole 429 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,200 point of what we do is helping people understand and figure out 430 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,360 what works better for them. So, yeah, lots of, lots of 431 00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:17,360 follow up questions, right. And and I think when when you 432 00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,960 have considerations of do I need a stability shoe, that's kind of 433 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,200 the question that's being asked in some ways here. 434 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,480 And do I need to vary what type of shoe I have per foot or how 435 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:30,080 could I modify, you know, question, question your notion 436 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:31,880 of what it means to need a stability shoe and what 437 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,760 stability shoes actually do. Yeah. 438 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,480 All right. Our next question is from Eric 439 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,160 and he's asking do you have shoe recommendations for 440 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,080 transitioning into a carbon plated shoe? 441 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,090 Yeah. This is a good question and I 442 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:47,890 very much appreciate being asked because most people will just 443 00:21:47,890 --> 00:21:50,570 jump in. And you're not saying super 444 00:21:50,570 --> 00:21:53,250 shoes specifically, you're saying carbon plated shoes. 445 00:21:53,250 --> 00:21:57,330 So I want to clarify which one might be being referenced, but I 446 00:21:57,330 --> 00:22:00,170 think it's a good idea because a lot of the plated shoes, they're 447 00:22:00,170 --> 00:22:04,310 pretty stiff now to be fair. A lot of the normal shoes 448 00:22:04,310 --> 00:22:07,190 without plates are actually getting fairly stiff as well, 449 00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:08,350 right? Like some of the more 450 00:22:08,350 --> 00:22:10,790 traditional trainers, Cumulus stuff like that. 451 00:22:10,910 --> 00:22:14,390 Nimbus are Nimbus. You're really getting stiff and 452 00:22:14,390 --> 00:22:18,750 they don't have plates in them. So in some ways a lot of this, 453 00:22:18,750 --> 00:22:21,230 like if you're wearing normal daily training shoes right now, 454 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:25,030 some of the levels of stiffness and rockers you might not need 455 00:22:25,030 --> 00:22:28,450 that much time to transition. But if you're talking about some 456 00:22:28,450 --> 00:22:30,930 of these super foams where you've got all the combination 457 00:22:30,930 --> 00:22:34,130 of all the factors of massive stack height, which a lot like 458 00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:36,970 the Nimbus was a great example because it's above that 40. 459 00:22:38,130 --> 00:22:41,850 Massive stack height, supersoft, super foam and a plate at the 460 00:22:41,850 --> 00:22:44,370 same time. There are some options that 461 00:22:44,370 --> 00:22:48,530 maybe are plated that might be good that you can transition 462 00:22:48,530 --> 00:22:50,930 into, and we actually just talked about a couple of them. 463 00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:54,970 But if you're just talking about a carbon plate, I think one of 464 00:22:54,970 --> 00:22:57,490 the best ways to do that would be looking for a shoe that maybe 465 00:22:57,490 --> 00:23:00,170 is plated but a little bit more flexible. 466 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:02,770 Something like a sockety endorphin speed which uses a 467 00:23:02,770 --> 00:23:05,210 nylon plate. It's got some of the Super foam 468 00:23:05,210 --> 00:23:07,250 components, it's just not nearly as stiff. 469 00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:12,140 As something like the Kinvara Pro, which is more the true 470 00:23:12,140 --> 00:23:14,940 super shoe, whereas the other one is kind of like it's getting 471 00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:17,140 in that direction, although it's still endorphin pro. 472 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:18,260 Yeah, the endorphin pro. Thank you. 473 00:23:18,980 --> 00:23:20,380 I forget how many pros there are. 474 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,680 I know it's pro endorphin pro, There's a couple other ones. 475 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:28,600 Kvar Pro, Kvar Pro, yeah. So yeah, looking at something 476 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,840 that maybe has a non carbon plate but a different kind like 477 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,640 a nylon plate, like the socketing endorphin speed might 478 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,720 be a good option. I was going to suggest something 479 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,600 like the Mach X, but that shoe is so stiff even though it 480 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,000 doesn't have a carbon plate, even though it's a P Max plate. 481 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,840 I'd be like, hey, that's, you know that that could be an 482 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:49,520 option, but it's still getting really stiff because the big 483 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,400 thing is it's not so much the. Carbon plate. 484 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,360 It's how stiff these shoes are. So what? 485 00:23:55,360 --> 00:23:58,680 The endorphin speed would be a good one, Nathan. 486 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,920 Let me know topospector. Topospector might be really good 487 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,960 because again, it doesn't have a plate, but it's still right. 488 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,600 It's pretty stiff. It does not have a plate. 489 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,680 Yeah, the Boston, tell me what you think. 490 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,480 If I'm wrong about this, the Boston 12 might be a good option 491 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,320 because it's got rods, It's still fairly stiff, but there is 492 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,320 just a teeny bit of flexibility left to it. 493 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:19,520 So it might be something to consider to transition into more 494 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:20,840 stiff thing. What do you think about that? 495 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,680 Is that a decent, Yeah, I I think Boston 12 would work in 496 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:30,440 that kind of transition phase. I I think, I think you mentioned 497 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280 it perfectly where it's not so much about the carbon plate, but 498 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:35,680 it's about how different is it from what you're currently 499 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,880 coming from. So if your starting spot is 500 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,640 running in, say you held it up the Nimbus 25, you have some 501 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,520 experience running in a highly stacked, highly cushioned and 502 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,670 rockered shoe. The only difference then would 503 00:24:48,670 --> 00:24:52,430 be foam type and the amount of like platform underneath. 504 00:24:52,430 --> 00:24:56,190 So it might become more narrow. And so if you have the Nimbus as 505 00:24:56,190 --> 00:24:59,110 your starting point, your consideration for transition is 506 00:25:00,070 --> 00:25:04,470 mostly around how can I handle a little bit more of a resilient 507 00:25:04,470 --> 00:25:07,110 and compliant foam then you're going to get just with kind of 508 00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:09,030 like the soft mushy with a wide platform. 509 00:25:09,390 --> 00:25:11,830 So that's your transition point. Where is if you're running in 510 00:25:11,830 --> 00:25:17,080 like a classic like Sockony ride or a Mizuna Wave rider, your 511 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,240 consideration is how do I get myself used to a stiff rocker? 512 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,960 And so your transition shoe might be different based on your 513 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,800 starting point. That's kind of some of my 514 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,320 thoughts on this on this question. 515 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,160 My other thing is again, you mentioned this perfectly if 516 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,160 you're running in something like a Nimbus which is already 517 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,060 getting a little stiff. You can get a carbon plated 518 00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:38,020 shoe, maybe one that's not as aggressive, something like we 519 00:25:38,020 --> 00:25:39,660 talked about the Magic Speed three earlier. 520 00:25:39,660 --> 00:25:42,140 It's still pretty stiff. It doesn't have the same super 521 00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:44,620 foam stuff, so there's not as many variables to get used to. 522 00:25:44,860 --> 00:25:48,300 And then it just comes about easing your way into a shoe like 523 00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:50,260 this, right? Your body can adapt it. 524 00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:53,140 Just give it time while you trained in other things and just 525 00:25:53,140 --> 00:25:57,860 kind of slowly dose this shoe into your running routine. 526 00:25:58,620 --> 00:26:00,900 A great way of like, hey, let me you know, I'm going to do an 527 00:26:00,900 --> 00:26:02,900 easy run and then maybe do some strides. 528 00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:06,230 Put on the carbon plated shoe at the very end and do some 529 00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:08,350 strides. Just get used to it and slowly 530 00:26:08,350 --> 00:26:09,950 increase. Then maybe do a short run in it, 531 00:26:10,310 --> 00:26:12,990 then maybe then do a full workout in it. 532 00:26:12,990 --> 00:26:15,950 Just kind of ease your way in. Your body can adapt, just gotta 533 00:26:15,950 --> 00:26:17,630 give it time. Yeah. 534 00:26:17,950 --> 00:26:21,670 The other shoe I'll throw out there is the SC Trainer V2. 535 00:26:22,190 --> 00:26:28,050 Version one is, version one is more full-fledged, stiff and 536 00:26:28,050 --> 00:26:31,530 just like big, but the version two has a lot more flexibility 537 00:26:31,530 --> 00:26:35,090 to it and kind of isn't is that transitionary? 538 00:26:35,610 --> 00:26:39,610 It's got the Super foamy feel, but it's not full full bore. 539 00:26:39,610 --> 00:26:42,290 So that'd be another one that I would put on the dock. 540 00:26:42,290 --> 00:26:47,290 It is a potential to transition and I you know again that's a 541 00:26:47,290 --> 00:26:49,170 little against the question because it's asking specifically 542 00:26:49,170 --> 00:26:51,090 about transitioning to carbon fiber plates. 543 00:26:51,090 --> 00:26:53,810 But if we're talking transition to the Super shoe, that would be 544 00:26:53,810 --> 00:26:56,490 a more of a middle ground shoe that you could also consider. 545 00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:58,980 And I personally have really liked that shoe. 546 00:26:59,060 --> 00:27:01,260 Yeah, I would agree. And I think it also comes down 547 00:27:01,260 --> 00:27:03,700 to like realizing it's not like we've talked about before. 548 00:27:03,980 --> 00:27:07,660 It's not exactly the plate and the material. 549 00:27:07,660 --> 00:27:09,780 It's the stiffness, right. So you're talking about 550 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:14,020 transitioning to stiffer shoes. It's because you can have carbon 551 00:27:14,020 --> 00:27:16,180 fiber plated shoes that still have some flexibility to them, 552 00:27:16,340 --> 00:27:17,940 right? You can have a shoe like the 553 00:27:17,940 --> 00:27:19,580 Mach X, which doesn't have a carbon plate. 554 00:27:19,580 --> 00:27:22,100 It has a Pebax plate, but it is very stiff, right. 555 00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:24,470 So think about. You know, transitioning into 556 00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:26,750 what? What the carbon plate is doing 557 00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:29,590 or what the plate is doing rather than, oh, what exactly is 558 00:27:29,590 --> 00:27:31,190 the material? Because it's going to vary from 559 00:27:31,190 --> 00:27:33,670 company to company. There's no standard. 560 00:27:33,910 --> 00:27:35,350 Everything, everything is very unique. 561 00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:39,350 Which is what, what makes it so nuanced and difficult to make 562 00:27:39,350 --> 00:27:42,430 hard and fast rules because can't just say carbon plated 563 00:27:42,430 --> 00:27:45,790 shoe because that that could be super flexible and it could be 564 00:27:45,790 --> 00:27:47,670 not flexible at all. And it really depends. 565 00:27:47,870 --> 00:27:51,150 But this brings us into a good next question and I saw you grab 566 00:27:51,550 --> 00:27:53,510 the Vapor Fly. And so I'm going to pitch this 567 00:27:53,510 --> 00:27:56,030 question as you maybe think about what you're going to say. 568 00:27:56,030 --> 00:28:00,030 But the next question is from NSAV 8 and they're asking 569 00:28:00,830 --> 00:28:05,710 compare the Saucony endorphin Elite versus the Nike Vapor Fly. 570 00:28:06,190 --> 00:28:09,150 So let's talk about that. What's the differences that 571 00:28:09,150 --> 00:28:11,230 you've that you've noticed? Yeah. 572 00:28:11,230 --> 00:28:14,230 So I would, I would first of all say I will compare these, but I 573 00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:18,670 think the endorphin Pro 3 is a little better comparison to the 574 00:28:19,550 --> 00:28:22,590 Vapor Fly, whereas the Endorphin Elite might be a little bit 575 00:28:22,590 --> 00:28:24,390 better compared to something like the Alpha Fly. 576 00:28:24,390 --> 00:28:26,470 But I'm still going to compare them because I think they're 577 00:28:26,470 --> 00:28:28,870 both great shoes. They're still on the top of my 578 00:28:29,190 --> 00:28:32,270 super Shoe list. The Did they both make your top 579 00:28:32,270 --> 00:28:33,870 five for the first half of this year? 580 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,640 I think they did. I don't know if I know the elite 581 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:37,960 was. I can't. 582 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,280 Remember, if I put the Vapor Flight on there just because 583 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,280 it's a great shoe, David, definitely it's not quite as 584 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,880 stable as I need. Whereas the endorphin Elite gets 585 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,400 it's not a stable shoe by it's not a stability shoe but it has 586 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,680 some mechanisms that work really, really well for me. 587 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,840 But yeah let's I'm gonna yeah go for it. 588 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,520 I'm gonna layout some of the specs I have pulled up here So 589 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:01,320 for the endorphin Elite you're looking at 7.2 ounces or 204 590 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,440 grams in men's size 96.5 oz, 185 grams in women's size 8. 591 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,480 Compare that to the Vapor Fly which is down at 6 1/2 ounces or 592 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:13,160 184 grams for the men's size 95.6 or 159. 593 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,680 So definitely lighter. You know, you're about, you 594 00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,880 know, a little over 1/2 an ounce lighter in the Vapor Fly stack 595 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,960 heights are pretty similar, 39 1/2 in the endorphin Elite, 38 596 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:30,320 in the Vapor Fly. They both, you know, have a 597 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,200 static 8 millimeter drop. So that's kind of what we're 598 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,320 coming in from us from a stats perspective. 599 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:38,640 And you get a little bit cheaper for the Vapor Fly. 600 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,520 I think it's 25 bucks cheaper. Yep, for the Vapor Fly 3. 601 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,120 I I would say so let's do ride first. 602 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Ride is pretty different between the two of them. 603 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,640 The endorphin the what is it? HG foam, definitely. 604 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,440 Yeah, the endorphin Elite. The HG Foam is a little bit 605 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,000 firmer. It's an incredibly bouncy foam 606 00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:59,400 and it was the first time I remember putting it on and doing 607 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,600 a workout. Nathan, don't judge me when I 608 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,200 was coming off having a fractured 4th toe and was coming 609 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:09,760 back faster than they should have and didn't know. 610 00:30:10,230 --> 00:30:11,910 How? And then I ran incredibly fast 611 00:30:11,910 --> 00:30:13,630 in this and I'm like, this is definitely the shoe. 612 00:30:13,630 --> 00:30:16,590 This is shoes nuts, which is kind of classic for super shoes. 613 00:30:16,590 --> 00:30:20,430 It's a firmer foam, which works a little bit better for me 614 00:30:20,430 --> 00:30:22,430 because there's some other stuff that I'll talk about that 615 00:30:22,430 --> 00:30:23,670 stabilizing me a little bit better. 616 00:30:23,870 --> 00:30:27,390 Whereas for those that run in Zoom X, it's much softer, much 617 00:30:27,390 --> 00:30:29,910 more, much more compliant. I wouldn't say necessarily 618 00:30:29,910 --> 00:30:32,470 resilient because they both have a lot of bounce, but definitely 619 00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:35,590 a lot more cush over on the Vapor Fly, especially in the 620 00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:39,170 heel. Both fast shoes I would say the 621 00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:40,530 lighter weight makes the Vapor Fly. 622 00:30:40,530 --> 00:30:43,930 Vapor Fly is very versatile. You're going to see people run a 623 00:30:43,930 --> 00:30:47,330 mile road race to doing a marathon in this very easily. 624 00:30:47,330 --> 00:30:49,730 Whereas I think for a lot of people I like the endorphin leaf 625 00:30:49,730 --> 00:30:52,770 a lot of stuff, but I would say this works better for longer 626 00:30:52,770 --> 00:30:54,970 distance stuff. So half marathon marathon 627 00:30:54,970 --> 00:30:57,490 getting into a real rhythm is where the endorphin leads going 628 00:30:57,490 --> 00:30:59,730 to work a little better. Although I actually chose this 629 00:31:00,090 --> 00:31:04,300 for a 5K recently over the. Vapor Fly, but that's because in 630 00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:06,900 my mind, the endorphin Elite, although these aren't stability 631 00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:10,660 issues, is more stable. There's a wider base under foot. 632 00:31:10,660 --> 00:31:14,780 The mid foot isn't as narrow as the Vapor Fly, It's a little 633 00:31:14,780 --> 00:31:17,140 more filled in for me on the medial side. 634 00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:20,740 The sole is just a little bit wider on the endorphin elite and 635 00:31:20,740 --> 00:31:23,380 there's side walls that seem to work really well for me, whereas 636 00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:26,660 not so much in the Vapor Fly if you don't need that stuff. 637 00:31:26,990 --> 00:31:28,030 It's not going to get in the way. 638 00:31:28,030 --> 00:31:30,790 I know they actually did some very interesting things for four 639 00:31:30,790 --> 00:31:33,430 foot stability actually by trying to fill it in, but if you 640 00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:36,110 need anything in the mid foot heel, you might struggle a 641 00:31:36,110 --> 00:31:38,470 little bit. But they're both fast super 642 00:31:38,470 --> 00:31:40,190 shoes. I think it's just where they 643 00:31:40,550 --> 00:31:43,590 kind of lend themselves a little different, whereas The Vapor Fly 644 00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:45,910 can handle a little bit more of everything. 645 00:31:46,070 --> 00:31:50,670 The endorphinally handles those longer distances really really 646 00:31:50,670 --> 00:31:53,950 well, especially if you just a more inherently stable platform 647 00:31:54,110 --> 00:31:56,510 without it being any like stability type. 648 00:31:57,620 --> 00:31:59,060 And the foams are just different. 649 00:31:59,060 --> 00:32:04,380 Where the Hg is a little is firmer than the Zoom X last 650 00:32:04,380 --> 00:32:06,780 thing upper, there's just there is a little bit more of. 651 00:32:06,820 --> 00:32:09,060 I never thought I would say this, there's a little bit more 652 00:32:09,060 --> 00:32:12,180 volume in the Vapor Fly compared to the endorphinal Lee, 653 00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:14,740 Endorphinal Lee. The four Foots just a teeny bit 654 00:32:14,860 --> 00:32:19,260 wider, but the volumes pretty low, whereas the Vapor Fly 655 00:32:19,260 --> 00:32:21,740 actually has some volume to it. I was really impressed when I 656 00:32:21,740 --> 00:32:23,580 put it on like, wow, the four foots kind of wide and I'm not 657 00:32:23,580 --> 00:32:25,190 getting my foot. Crush. 658 00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:29,350 So it's a little bit more volume again on the Vapor Fly. 659 00:32:30,110 --> 00:32:34,270 Oh, last part, If you're crazy enough, you could take the Vapor 660 00:32:34,270 --> 00:32:38,630 Fly on some softer surfaces. They did do that intentionally 661 00:32:38,630 --> 00:32:40,790 based on feedback and so many runners, so many, especially 662 00:32:40,790 --> 00:32:43,150 high school cross country athletes, we're using vapor 663 00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:45,630 flies on trails. They now have that waffle design 664 00:32:45,630 --> 00:32:47,790 where and I have done this. I wouldn't suggest it, but if 665 00:32:47,790 --> 00:32:51,230 you're going to do this, of the two of them, I would put this 666 00:32:51,230 --> 00:32:52,670 one again. The traction is going to be a 667 00:32:52,670 --> 00:32:55,630 little bit better. Over here, and I do feel like, 668 00:32:55,710 --> 00:32:57,670 although I haven't got enough miles to really test this, I 669 00:32:57,670 --> 00:32:59,910 think durability, the outsole is going to be just a little bit 670 00:32:59,910 --> 00:33:02,670 better on Vapor Fly compared to the endorphin Elite. 671 00:33:03,390 --> 00:33:05,430 I have been finding the endorphin Elite, but I've seen, 672 00:33:05,430 --> 00:33:08,510 which is very surprising. But I've seen David and a couple 673 00:33:08,510 --> 00:33:11,390 of other people chew through that outsole on the endorphin 674 00:33:11,390 --> 00:33:13,590 Elite a little bit quicker than on the Vapor Fly. 675 00:33:14,070 --> 00:33:17,390 Yeah, I would say the other difference that I noticed when 676 00:33:17,390 --> 00:33:22,050 running in these two shoes or even before I say that, I think 677 00:33:22,050 --> 00:33:24,290 these are the perfect example of shoes that you should try them 678 00:33:24,290 --> 00:33:27,770 both on and see which one you vibe with because the one of the 679 00:33:27,770 --> 00:33:30,930 big differences between the two is the rocker shape and the 680 00:33:30,930 --> 00:33:34,530 initiation point of the act, kind of that apex of the curve. 681 00:33:34,530 --> 00:33:39,490 So The Vapor Fly has more of a an earlier, slightly earlier 682 00:33:39,490 --> 00:33:41,650 stage rocker. It's still aggressive, you know, 683 00:33:41,650 --> 00:33:44,050 you're still getting a lot of rocker, but it starts a little 684 00:33:44,050 --> 00:33:45,690 bit earlier, more towards the heat. 685 00:33:45,690 --> 00:33:48,170 It's not at the heel, but it's more towards the heel then 686 00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:50,930 compared to the endorphin elite which starts very late. 687 00:33:51,050 --> 00:33:54,610 So it's a late and it has a sharper curve to it and so you 688 00:33:54,610 --> 00:33:57,570 really have to get onto that rocker to be able to utilize it. 689 00:33:57,810 --> 00:34:00,770 And so depending on your mechanics, you might find that 690 00:34:00,770 --> 00:34:02,970 one feels great, one feels clunky for me. 691 00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:06,290 Vaporfly feels great endorphinly, it feels super 692 00:34:06,290 --> 00:34:09,850 clunky for me unless I'm running really fast and I can't sustain 693 00:34:09,850 --> 00:34:12,530 really fast for a long time. So unlike you, Matt, where 694 00:34:12,530 --> 00:34:16,000 you've verged that shoe for longer distances, I can't really 695 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,480 choose that for a long distance because I can't push the pace 696 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,120 because I can't get on top of that rocker. 697 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,040 With the way that my mechanics work, I have the same thing that 698 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:28,239 happens for me with the beta Speed sky and it also happens 699 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,800 for me with the Rocket X2. So just they have a little bit 700 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,199 more of that, like sharper edged rocker versus a little bit 701 00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,360 earlier. And for some reason I just don't 702 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,199 get up on it. And even when I run on a 703 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,480 treadmill, I'm super loud and clunky and it feels heavy, like 704 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,040 it doesn't feel heavyweight wise, but it feels like I'm not 705 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:48,080 rhythmically moving through. It feels like I get put on a 706 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:53,070 little break and then I can go. So I would say that a shoe like 707 00:34:53,070 --> 00:34:55,949 that is 1 to worth trying on and running and make sure you feel 708 00:34:55,949 --> 00:34:58,390 good. I'd be curious to hear what like 709 00:34:58,390 --> 00:35:02,150 Dustin Jobert would say and say, well even if it feels clunky, 710 00:35:02,150 --> 00:35:04,550 but you have better metrics on your running economy. 711 00:35:04,550 --> 00:35:08,510 Which one should you choose? And I think that'd be a curious 712 00:35:08,510 --> 00:35:10,790 case study to like put on a couple different ones, one that 713 00:35:10,790 --> 00:35:14,670 feels subjectively like smooth and fast versus one for me that 714 00:35:14,670 --> 00:35:19,070 feels more clunky and like off and see if my running economy 715 00:35:19,070 --> 00:35:20,510 matches that. But I just don't know. 716 00:35:20,970 --> 00:35:21,890 But wouldn't that be a fun study? 717 00:35:21,890 --> 00:35:23,370 That'd be a fun study. It's so interesting. 718 00:35:23,370 --> 00:35:25,970 You say that because I think I have the exact opposite review 719 00:35:25,970 --> 00:35:28,770 where I like having to climb over that because it facilitates 720 00:35:28,770 --> 00:35:32,330 me pushing harder. But yeah, that's a that is the 721 00:35:32,330 --> 00:35:34,370 best thing is you are going to have to definitely try these on. 722 00:35:34,370 --> 00:35:36,610 There's no perfect answer because there's some the, 723 00:35:36,690 --> 00:35:39,170 there's some not initially minutiae, but definitely points 724 00:35:39,170 --> 00:35:40,890 of differences between the two of them that you were going to 725 00:35:40,890 --> 00:35:42,850 have to try to figure out. Does this work for you? 726 00:35:42,850 --> 00:35:46,550 Yeah. The great shoes, yeah, I think. 727 00:35:46,550 --> 00:35:49,550 The last thing I wanted to add about Power and HG, we got to 728 00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:51,350 sit down with Sake and talk about that film. 729 00:35:51,350 --> 00:35:53,870 And I think one of the interesting points that their 730 00:35:54,390 --> 00:35:58,590 material science kind of guru Andrea, she was telling us that 731 00:35:58,910 --> 00:36:03,000 that shoe I think of it kind of like Silly Putty. 732 00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:05,400 Whereas if you pull Silly Putty slow, it can deform a lot. 733 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,120 But if you pull it really fast, it just it has a different 734 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,320 viscoelastic response we call it to to like material loading. 735 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:17,080 So if you load each HG fast, it's going to respond quickly to 736 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,120 that. If you load it slower, it might 737 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,640 have a little bit more deformation. 738 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,080 So that's part of why we we all experience softness of shoes 739 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:27,080 differently depend on how quickly you're loading a foam. 740 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:31,000 It determines how quickly that responsive nature of it will 741 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,800 react to you. And when it comes to power NHG, 742 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,520 it's got a very high responsiveness, which means that 743 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,760 it's going to feel a little bit firmer because it starts to kick 744 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,640 back at you right away. So I found that is a really 745 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:44,200 interesting part of our conversation with them. 746 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,560 Okay. We are transitioning into the 747 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,840 next question and this is another good one that we won't 748 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:52,640 have a perfect answer for, but we're gonna try. 749 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,120 Roy is asking can you suggest one shoe? 750 00:36:56,520 --> 00:36:58,560 Sorry, spoiler no we can't suggest one. 751 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,720 We're going to give you like 10. But can you suggest one shoe 752 00:37:01,720 --> 00:37:04,400 that would work well for middle school cross country? 753 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,800 Here's the criteria. The parents want to buy one shoe 754 00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:13,160 for both training and race. Day mileage is about 25 miles 755 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,840 per week. The training is on road, dirt, 756 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,560 trails and the track. The race is 1 to 2 miles. 757 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,720 The race course is a mixture of grass, dirt and pavement. 758 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:26,980 No spikes allowed. This is awesome that they laid 759 00:37:26,980 --> 00:37:29,180 out all of this kind of like criteria. 760 00:37:29,180 --> 00:37:31,500 This was like one of the best worded questions we've had in my 761 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:33,980 opinion, gave us all the caveats for us. 762 00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:35,700 Oh yeah, and then they finish it. 763 00:37:36,060 --> 00:37:38,500 The different terrains and the cost of parents makes it 764 00:37:38,500 --> 00:37:40,580 difficult to find one shoe that can do it all. 765 00:37:40,580 --> 00:37:42,700 Any suggestions? So again, just to run through 766 00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,340 the criteria again, they want one shoe for training and racing 767 00:37:45,460 --> 00:37:48,580 about 25 miles a week. Training is on multiple types of 768 00:37:48,580 --> 00:37:50,740 surfaces and the races are one to two miles. 769 00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:54,820 This is middle schoolers and the races can't have spikes and it's 770 00:37:54,820 --> 00:37:56,500 a mixture of dirt, grass and pavement. 771 00:37:56,940 --> 00:38:00,700 So we thought a lot about this question and obviously one piece 772 00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:04,220 that comes into it is how big are your middle schoolers feet? 773 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:06,820 Some middle schoolers are just gonna have adult size feet, 774 00:38:06,820 --> 00:38:09,460 which opens up the gamut of all all shoes. 775 00:38:09,860 --> 00:38:12,540 But before we go to that part of the conversation, we did what we 776 00:38:12,540 --> 00:38:15,940 did, look up a couple. We wanted to find what models 777 00:38:15,940 --> 00:38:19,220 are offered in kids sizes for those who might have a middle 778 00:38:19,220 --> 00:38:21,460 school runner who doesn't have adult size feet. 779 00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:26,780 And so we found two shoes. One was the Audi 0SL is offered 780 00:38:26,780 --> 00:38:30,380 in a kids size and as is the Kinvara. 781 00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:33,660 So there's a Kinvara kids. In my opinion, the one question 782 00:38:33,660 --> 00:38:37,180 about the Kinvara is not the ability to perform well, it's 783 00:38:37,180 --> 00:38:40,940 the durability side because it is a lot of exposed Eva, but 784 00:38:41,180 --> 00:38:43,820 we've had pretty decent success with that one so far. 785 00:38:44,060 --> 00:38:46,940 But that would be 1 consideration for that shoe. 786 00:38:47,810 --> 00:38:50,050 Anything you want to add to the kids size shoes that we found 787 00:38:50,050 --> 00:38:53,010 because we're going to talk further about those shoes in our 788 00:38:53,010 --> 00:38:54,850 other part of the answer. But is there anything you want 789 00:38:54,850 --> 00:38:56,290 to add specifically to that, Matt? 790 00:38:56,850 --> 00:39:00,210 Yeah, so we. Definitely this is a great 791 00:39:00,210 --> 00:39:02,290 question, this challenge both of us who are sitting here before 792 00:39:02,290 --> 00:39:05,210 we we did this live from like look this up. 793 00:39:05,650 --> 00:39:10,130 So I would say the Canvara kids unless you know I this is 794 00:39:10,450 --> 00:39:11,970 testimony. I've actually had pretty good 795 00:39:11,970 --> 00:39:14,530 success using the Kevara on Trail, despite the exposed out 796 00:39:14,530 --> 00:39:17,180 soul. But that might be me, especially 797 00:39:17,180 --> 00:39:20,060 if kids are running, you know, 25 miles a week and one to two 798 00:39:20,060 --> 00:39:23,740 miles I think they should be OK. The the thing that I that we 799 00:39:23,740 --> 00:39:27,740 were looking at is really trying to keep kids away from any kind 800 00:39:27,740 --> 00:39:30,060 of super shoes. There are a few shoes that are 801 00:39:30,060 --> 00:39:34,580 made on like the Vapor Fly is made in kids sizes. 802 00:39:34,580 --> 00:39:38,020 But I would really, unless you're running at a really high 803 00:39:38,020 --> 00:39:41,260 elite level, I would really discourage the use of any kind 804 00:39:41,260 --> 00:39:45,100 of plated super shoes for younger kids, because it's. 805 00:39:45,220 --> 00:39:48,300 Not that we know for sure that they might mess with things, but 806 00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:50,260 we just don't know. And I think that's the bigger 807 00:39:50,260 --> 00:39:53,140 thing. If we don't knowing basics of 808 00:39:53,580 --> 00:39:56,220 the developments of kids that develop a little extremity 809 00:39:56,220 --> 00:39:59,540 growing bodies, things like that altered proprioception already 810 00:39:59,540 --> 00:40:02,420 as they're growing and their bodies are changing, really 811 00:40:02,420 --> 00:40:04,580 hesitate to suggest any kind of super shoe. 812 00:40:04,580 --> 00:40:07,420 So getting what we're looking for is those classic lightweight 813 00:40:07,420 --> 00:40:08,940 trainers that can handle a little bit of anything. 814 00:40:08,940 --> 00:40:12,980 And that's where I think the ADI 0SL and the Kinvara are really, 815 00:40:12,980 --> 00:40:15,140 really, really good at doing that and especially. 816 00:40:15,340 --> 00:40:17,020 They're also a little cheaper, right. 817 00:40:17,020 --> 00:40:19,260 So there's not going to be a $200.00 shoe that you got to, 818 00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:20,820 you know, give your kids that they are. 819 00:40:20,820 --> 00:40:24,060 Kids will wreck shoes like more, even more than I will. 820 00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:27,580 So having something that's a little bit more durable I think 821 00:40:27,580 --> 00:40:30,860 will definitely help while still having that performance edge 822 00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:34,740 going into the the next parts. I think realizing that there are 823 00:40:34,740 --> 00:40:37,260 going to be and we I had to look this up because Nathan your kid 824 00:40:37,260 --> 00:40:40,270 that no we don't have kids in middle school yet but I think 825 00:40:40,270 --> 00:40:41,750 Nathan's probably worked with a couple. 826 00:40:41,750 --> 00:40:43,990 I have not worked with any. I work with a not. 827 00:40:44,030 --> 00:40:46,190 Yeah I. Work with a large number of 828 00:40:46,190 --> 00:40:49,070 middle schoolers. A lot of high schoolers, yeah. 829 00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:50,950 Yeah, I've gotten a bunch of high schoolers. 830 00:40:50,950 --> 00:40:53,710 But not middle schoolers. So that's I've gotten super 831 00:40:53,710 --> 00:40:56,990 young kids and older kids but never in that middle range. 832 00:40:56,990 --> 00:41:00,790 So the thing that and this is Nathan, do I let you take this 833 00:41:00,790 --> 00:41:02,990 because it was your your expertise was like sure what's 834 00:41:02,990 --> 00:41:06,860 the average size? Yeah, I'm willing to talk on it 835 00:41:06,860 --> 00:41:09,580 a little bit. I think I think what what our 836 00:41:09,580 --> 00:41:12,220 goal in answering this question is to find the most accessible 837 00:41:12,220 --> 00:41:16,460 shoe that can handle the demands of the running for the season 838 00:41:16,460 --> 00:41:22,580 knowing that cost is a factor and knowing that versatility of 839 00:41:22,580 --> 00:41:25,460 pace and versatility of terrain is going to be important. 840 00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:28,060 So those were kind of our our metrics for this and as Matt 841 00:41:28,060 --> 00:41:31,740 mentioned, there's kind of no need to to dive into this super 842 00:41:31,740 --> 00:41:34,700 shoe realm at you know in the middle school realm unless. 843 00:41:34,860 --> 00:41:37,820 Your, your kid or one of the kids on your team really wants 844 00:41:37,820 --> 00:41:39,940 to dive into that stuff and their families in a space where 845 00:41:39,940 --> 00:41:41,900 they want to do that, but I just don't think it's needed. 846 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:45,140 So what we wanted to find again were these shoes that were on 847 00:41:45,140 --> 00:41:48,900 the affordable side of the spectrum, had a little bit of 848 00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:52,580 that versatility, some grip for the, you know, dirt surfaces but 849 00:41:52,580 --> 00:41:55,860 also is going to run really well on on the road. 850 00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:59,660 So a couple shoes that we came up with were. 851 00:42:00,390 --> 00:42:03,470 There's kind of the two, two parts of this, one our full 852 00:42:03,470 --> 00:42:07,030 priced deals and one is deals from the year before. 853 00:42:07,030 --> 00:42:09,670 I think that's a great space to go for your middle school runner 854 00:42:09,870 --> 00:42:12,590 is to look at last year's models and I know on our website we 855 00:42:12,590 --> 00:42:15,950 always have a shoes under $100 and there's a lot of really good 856 00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:17,950 shoes out there right now for under $100. 857 00:42:18,190 --> 00:42:21,390 And some of them are on this list and even some, I don't 858 00:42:21,390 --> 00:42:23,310 know, some other ones that aren't on this list are just 859 00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:25,470 awesome shoes that are having wicked sales. 860 00:42:26,110 --> 00:42:29,150 So I think it's worth worth always checking out for sales 861 00:42:29,150 --> 00:42:31,560 from the year before. But a couple shoes that made our 862 00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:33,920 list are the Brooks launch or the Brooks Revel. 863 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,400 Those are usually $100 shoes. They have a very classic Eva, 864 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:38,800 but they're a little bit lighter weight. 865 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,680 So you can, you know, push a little bit of your own effort 866 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,240 into the shoe and it's going to allow you to run quick. 867 00:42:44,240 --> 00:42:45,920 It's not going to be super heavy under foot. 868 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:47,200 It's got a good amount of rubber. 869 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,640 So the rubber is going to last you all year for in something 870 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:54,680 like that, and then in the same realm a shoe from. 871 00:42:56,590 --> 00:43:00,710 ASICS is the ASICS Cumulus and that shoe is a little bit more 872 00:43:00,710 --> 00:43:02,350 expensive. You kind of get up into that 873 00:43:02,350 --> 00:43:05,430 one. I forget if it's one 3135, but 874 00:43:05,430 --> 00:43:07,950 again, it's their slightly lighter weight kind of daily 875 00:43:07,950 --> 00:43:10,350 trainer shoe. It's not lightweight. 876 00:43:10,350 --> 00:43:12,270 I know it's gotten a little bit heavy, like kind of. 877 00:43:12,710 --> 00:43:15,790 It's got a little bit more weight to it, but it is going to 878 00:43:15,790 --> 00:43:18,750 allow you to turn over a little bit and just kind of that 879 00:43:18,750 --> 00:43:22,150 durability side of it where you won't run through it too quickly 880 00:43:22,550 --> 00:43:25,750 because the season usually runs from like August, September, 881 00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:28,150 October. So you got three months. 882 00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:31,030 If you're running 25 miles a week, that's about 300 miles or 883 00:43:31,030 --> 00:43:35,950 325 miles to 400 miles. And if your kids doing summer 884 00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:39,070 running, you might want to consider then you know, and I 885 00:43:39,150 --> 00:43:41,750 hope they are doing some level of summer running, eight weeks 886 00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:44,690 of like. Some base mileage in the summer 887 00:43:44,690 --> 00:43:48,770 shows to decrease injury in the fall, But if there are going to 888 00:43:48,770 --> 00:43:50,730 be doing summer running, I would say you're probably going to 889 00:43:50,730 --> 00:43:53,650 need 2 shoes between the summer running through the fall. 890 00:43:53,930 --> 00:43:56,930 And I know that's and that's another part of the cost 891 00:43:56,930 --> 00:43:59,090 perspective. But the first ones I can remind 892 00:43:59,090 --> 00:44:01,650 are kind of these classic daily trainers that sit a little bit 893 00:44:01,650 --> 00:44:04,050 more on the light end. Other ones on our list are the, 894 00:44:04,250 --> 00:44:05,730 you know, the adult size Canvara. 895 00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:09,390 If you feel comfortable with the exposed outsole, it is ribbed 896 00:44:09,390 --> 00:44:12,190 from a grip perspective now, so that does help a little bit. 897 00:44:12,310 --> 00:44:15,190 The Puma Liberate is a lighter weight shoe. 898 00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:17,350 It has a little bit less cushioning than some of these 899 00:44:17,350 --> 00:44:20,190 other ones, but it can still kind of handle some of the 900 00:44:20,190 --> 00:44:23,430 training that you're talking about here, a couple other shoes 901 00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:27,180 that we talked about. There's concerns with every 902 00:44:27,220 --> 00:44:29,380 there's considerations. Concerns is too strong for 903 00:44:29,380 --> 00:44:30,780 there's considerations for everyone. 904 00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:34,060 But if you want something that's a little bit more new age foam 905 00:44:34,060 --> 00:44:36,780 but doesn't have a plate still pretty classically runs has a 906 00:44:36,780 --> 00:44:40,020 good amount of flexibility would be the New Balance rebel I would 907 00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:43,580 say the only thing about that shoe and another one that I'll 908 00:44:43,580 --> 00:44:46,140 mention next is just the nature of the outsoles. 909 00:44:46,140 --> 00:44:48,540 A little bit more flat doesn't have as much ribbing so it's not 910 00:44:48,540 --> 00:44:51,020 going to grip as much. But it shouldn't be a problem 911 00:44:51,060 --> 00:44:54,140 unless you have like a muddy day or like really wet grass or 912 00:44:54,140 --> 00:44:55,340 something like that. That's. 913 00:44:55,460 --> 00:44:57,900 So that I think would become a problem but you can get a little 914 00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:01,020 bit more of that bounce fun feel and it does run fast. 915 00:45:01,020 --> 00:45:04,780 The New Balance rubble can can push the pace and part of that's 916 00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:07,060 because the foam feels like it's given some back but it's also 917 00:45:07,060 --> 00:45:10,420 just really lightweight. The other one with the out sole 918 00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:14,340 issue is the ASICS evil ride or the evil ride speed. 919 00:45:14,340 --> 00:45:19,140 Again that has more of a flat rubber on the out sole, but they 920 00:45:19,140 --> 00:45:20,780 are lightweight. They got a little bit of a 921 00:45:20,780 --> 00:45:23,500 rocker, They can definitely handle training miles and. 922 00:45:23,890 --> 00:45:26,530 They can push the pace for a one to two mile race, so that's 923 00:45:26,530 --> 00:45:28,290 another one that I think is worth considering. 924 00:45:28,330 --> 00:45:33,690 If you're not concerned about the grip side of things, there's 925 00:45:33,690 --> 00:45:37,370 a couple other ones, but I think that's honestly the ones that 926 00:45:37,370 --> 00:45:39,770 stuck out to be the most as good options. 927 00:45:39,770 --> 00:45:42,530 That, especially if you get them a year older. 928 00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,360 You know are going to give you the value cost wise that are 929 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,920 going to get you through the season and will allow you to 930 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,480 perform and have fun. I would say you could always get 931 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,960 like a Brooks Ghost or a Mizuno Wave Rider. 932 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:59,400 They just will be a bit heavier and they won't be able to you 933 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,080 know, on the race day side of things if they might they might 934 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,360 be a part of, you know, slowing you down a little bit. 935 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:08,520 But it also depends on like who's the kid and what's their 936 00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:11,360 goals and how competitive are you trying to be. 937 00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:16,580 Cuz what really matters in middle school is not about, you 938 00:46:16,580 --> 00:46:21,420 know, actually competing and winning, but it's about falling 939 00:46:21,420 --> 00:46:23,980 in love with the sport and being healthy and making friends and 940 00:46:24,140 --> 00:46:26,660 learning, you know, character and all this stuff. 941 00:46:27,100 --> 00:46:28,900 I don't know. That's just my take on it. 942 00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:32,580 So find the shoe that will get you through the season for the 943 00:46:32,580 --> 00:46:35,140 training side of things and. Take what it gives you for the 944 00:46:35,140 --> 00:46:36,540 races. Is where I'm kind of at. 945 00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:38,820 Anything you want to add? No, I think that's great. 946 00:46:38,900 --> 00:46:41,500 And to be honest with even in college, my college coach would 947 00:46:41,500 --> 00:46:43,780 not, you let us use spikes or racing flats at all. 948 00:46:43,780 --> 00:46:45,660 The first race, they make us run in trainers. 949 00:46:46,140 --> 00:46:49,100 So sometimes from like an easing in perspective, it's a good 950 00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:51,340 idea. And you know, there you have so 951 00:46:51,340 --> 00:46:54,100 many great options that Nathan just mentioned that, yeah, that 952 00:46:54,100 --> 00:46:55,820 are also pretty affordable too, yeah. 953 00:46:56,900 --> 00:47:00,820 Honestly, I think my my top choice if there were no. 954 00:47:01,970 --> 00:47:04,130 Nothing else. I would pick a Brooks Launch 955 00:47:04,130 --> 00:47:07,090 $100 shoe. It's got decent grip. 956 00:47:07,090 --> 00:47:09,810 It's got enough foam underneath. It's simple. 957 00:47:11,650 --> 00:47:14,170 That'd be my pick. And then if you need even more 958 00:47:14,170 --> 00:47:16,370 of a deal, you just find it on sale from the year before. 959 00:47:17,730 --> 00:47:22,090 So, All right, ready for the next question, Matt? 960 00:47:22,770 --> 00:47:25,050 Betty, when you are okay, here we go. 961 00:47:25,490 --> 00:47:28,740 So this is from Daniel. I say thanks for all you do. 962 00:47:28,740 --> 00:47:30,260 I love listening to your podcast. 963 00:47:30,260 --> 00:47:34,540 I was reading through an old 5K plan on Runners World from 2011 964 00:47:34,540 --> 00:47:37,860 and includes this passage. This is what the This is what 965 00:47:37,860 --> 00:47:40,380 the article from 2011 said in Runners World says. 966 00:47:40,700 --> 00:47:44,100 Icing is the silver bullet that makes our sport possible. 967 00:47:44,340 --> 00:47:47,180 We need ice. We need to ice each and every 968 00:47:47,180 --> 00:47:50,940 sore spot that could potentially progress to an injury and we 969 00:47:50,940 --> 00:47:54,700 need to begin our icing within 15 minutes after completing our 970 00:47:54,700 --> 00:47:57,960 run. This is truly a case of a stitch 971 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,440 in time saving nine. And then they continue their 972 00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,840 question. They say, but I feel like I've 973 00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:07,200 heard advice to the contrary recently, that icing and or 974 00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,680 Advil are often just masking symptoms that the body needs for 975 00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:12,240 its own recovery. Am I wrong? 976 00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,960 What's the correct conventional wisdom on icing post run? 977 00:48:16,650 --> 00:48:18,930 So I think they're getting really close, and I don't want 978 00:48:18,930 --> 00:48:22,490 to sound like I'm Pooh poohing on icing, but our understanding 979 00:48:22,490 --> 00:48:25,890 of this has greatly evolved. So the whole point of icing, one 980 00:48:25,890 --> 00:48:29,330 of the things was like, oh, it decreases inflammation, all this 981 00:48:29,330 --> 00:48:31,530 kind of stuff. You know, the rice method, rest, 982 00:48:31,530 --> 00:48:34,610 ice, compression, elevation. The individual that came up with 983 00:48:34,610 --> 00:48:37,990 Rice actually came back and said, yeah, that's not how this 984 00:48:37,990 --> 00:48:39,310 works. And I take that back. 985 00:48:39,310 --> 00:48:43,310 It's, it's appropriate active recovery and utilizing the right 986 00:48:43,310 --> 00:48:46,470 tools to keep people moving and using rest if necessary. 987 00:48:46,470 --> 00:48:49,630 And it depends on the tissue. But icing after every single 988 00:48:49,630 --> 00:48:54,750 thing is really not necessary. Ice really only is effective if 989 00:48:54,750 --> 00:48:57,070 you actually have an inflammatory response, like a 990 00:48:57,070 --> 00:48:59,830 true amount of swelling. And even then, the ice, the 991 00:48:59,830 --> 00:49:02,710 temperature doesn't really reach that far past the skin. 992 00:49:03,180 --> 00:49:06,700 I think in terms of a priority list of things to do after a 993 00:49:06,700 --> 00:49:09,540 run, there are things that are a lot more important. 994 00:49:09,940 --> 00:49:13,700 We have seen that things like anti inflammatories, Advils for 995 00:49:13,700 --> 00:49:17,460 sure in the wrong person can definitely delay recovery 996 00:49:17,460 --> 00:49:20,260 because inflammation is how you recover. 997 00:49:20,620 --> 00:49:22,460 It's that's how your body heals, right. 998 00:49:22,460 --> 00:49:25,580 You do damage to tissue, like you go exercise, there's muscle 999 00:49:25,580 --> 00:49:29,260 damage, your it gets inflamed. That's the body's response for 1000 00:49:29,260 --> 00:49:33,190 going, hey this need, we need to repair this and then everything. 1001 00:49:33,190 --> 00:49:35,790 You know that's when you start healing and you can't really 1002 00:49:35,830 --> 00:49:38,030 accelerate that. You need time, you need to train 1003 00:49:38,030 --> 00:49:40,550 appropriately. The only time that like ice 1004 00:49:40,550 --> 00:49:42,910 baths and things like that have been shown to be affected is 1005 00:49:42,910 --> 00:49:45,550 during multi day events where you're not really focused on 1006 00:49:45,550 --> 00:49:47,470 longevity and recovery long term. 1007 00:49:47,630 --> 00:49:50,950 You're just focusing on reducing symptoms so you can get to the 1008 00:49:50,950 --> 00:49:52,990 next day because you're not going to recover fast enough. 1009 00:49:52,990 --> 00:49:56,390 This is exactly the argument I used in college because my coach 1010 00:49:56,390 --> 00:49:59,350 wanted us to ice bath and I hated ice baths because they 1011 00:49:59,350 --> 00:50:02,480 made me feel worse and they thought they were wasted time 1012 00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:05,360 when it could be doing more active recovery and things like 1013 00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:06,600 that. So I wrote a paper for him and 1014 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:09,040 he said please don't bother me, you don't have to do this, just 1015 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:11,960 stop bothering me. That's my story on that. 1016 00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:17,240 So I would say yes, with a caveat of if you actually have 1017 00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:21,800 acutely damaged tissue and it is you cannot move or it's is the 1018 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,000 inflammation or the pain is preventing you from getting the 1019 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,200 active recovery or preventing you from just doing basic 1020 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,760 things, then yes, antiinflammatory something like 1021 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,400 that might be beneficial. But for normal run daytoday 1022 00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:38,120 stuff, no that there are greater priorities made sure you get 1023 00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,240 good nutrition after you run, maybe working on a little bit of 1024 00:50:41,240 --> 00:50:43,400 mobility and I don't mean a foam oil, I mean just like some 1025 00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,120 drills or active recovery stuff to making sure you sleep enough 1026 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:51,000 that is going to be a million times more important than icing 1027 00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:52,760 because things are going to be sore. 1028 00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,600 And if the key is, is this the kind of sore that's like this 1029 00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,200 might be an injury or is it just like, hey, this got worked, so 1030 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:01,360 going and icing every single thing, I honestly think is a 1031 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,120 waste of time. Unless it makes you feel better 1032 00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:05,400 mentally, which there's a whole different conversation that 1033 00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,680 happens there. But I think there's better uses 1034 00:51:07,680 --> 00:51:12,320 of your time than icing, and it for sure will not prevent 1035 00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,400 injuries this. One of the things that's in my 1036 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,320 head right now is one of my I don't know if it's pet peeves or 1037 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,840 just things that I've been very conscious of recently in the 1038 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,000 world of content creation and how the Internet you can so 1039 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,230 quickly get information. Is that we often don't 1040 00:51:30,230 --> 00:51:35,310 communicate who we're speaking to and what the like situation 1041 00:51:35,310 --> 00:51:38,150 or context is that we're applying an idea. 1042 00:51:38,150 --> 00:51:43,110 So in the case of icing, you might hear the idea like you 1043 00:51:43,110 --> 00:51:46,110 were just talking about that it's masking symptoms or as Matt 1044 00:51:46,110 --> 00:51:49,190 said, what we what we know is yeah, taking anti inflammatories 1045 00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:53,190 or icing right after an acute injury can delay the healing 1046 00:51:53,190 --> 00:51:55,990 process because it's impeding the natural inflammatory 1047 00:51:55,990 --> 00:51:57,820 response. But that's in it. 1048 00:51:57,820 --> 00:52:00,620 That's all in a certain context. And if that's not communicated, 1049 00:52:00,620 --> 00:52:03,100 it can get blown up somewhere else. 1050 00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:06,020 And that's where probably some of this stuff came from, this 1051 00:52:06,020 --> 00:52:07,620 Runners World article. I would just. 1052 00:52:07,660 --> 00:52:09,510 I would. Pause it to give the hot take 1053 00:52:09,510 --> 00:52:12,870 that that's a bad take from 2011 that that would not be applied 1054 00:52:12,870 --> 00:52:15,510 anymore. That icing is not the silver 1055 00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:17,590 bullet. Icing does not fix anything. 1056 00:52:17,710 --> 00:52:20,670 Icing can be a symptom manager and that's pretty much pretty 1057 00:52:20,670 --> 00:52:22,390 much it. And as Matt said, it's hard to 1058 00:52:22,390 --> 00:52:25,110 get deep with icing. Ice baths and stuff is a 1059 00:52:25,110 --> 00:52:27,950 different type of conversation about you know, recovery, but 1060 00:52:27,950 --> 00:52:32,550 from it from icing specific regions for pain is not 1061 00:52:32,550 --> 00:52:36,830 effective after running period when it comes to the like. 1062 00:52:37,240 --> 00:52:39,960 Negative sides of icing, I think we also don't want to overblow 1063 00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,360 that and and say just because you have a little bit sore spot 1064 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,400 you want to ice, it doesn't mean that it's not going to recover. 1065 00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:47,840 That's not the case either. What icing does is it causes 1066 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:51,120 vasoconstriction, meaning it takes blood vessels from a 1067 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,880 certain diameter and brings the diameter smaller, which means 1068 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,320 that less blood gets that area when there's less blood. 1069 00:52:56,520 --> 00:52:59,040 That can cause that kind of numbing sensation and stuff that 1070 00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,880 you feel too. It also decreases the 1071 00:53:00,880 --> 00:53:03,400 inflammatory markers that can get there for recovery, so. 1072 00:53:04,620 --> 00:53:08,100 Long story short, if you are having an acute ankle sprain or 1073 00:53:08,100 --> 00:53:11,180 you just strained your hamstring like really bad on a Sprint, you 1074 00:53:11,180 --> 00:53:15,620 probably want to avoid icing and you want to avoid anti 1075 00:53:15,620 --> 00:53:19,420 inflammatories for that early phase of inflammation. 1076 00:53:19,420 --> 00:53:21,620 And depending on the type of injury, that can be up to three 1077 00:53:21,620 --> 00:53:23,420 weeks. It can be as short as a couple 1078 00:53:23,420 --> 00:53:25,100 days, but it can be up to a couple weeks. 1079 00:53:25,340 --> 00:53:28,860 And so icing can be deleterious in those scenarios. 1080 00:53:29,060 --> 00:53:31,340 But icing on, you know something? 1081 00:53:31,340 --> 00:53:33,620 Oh, I just feel a little sore and I didn't really injure 1082 00:53:33,620 --> 00:53:36,220 anything. Maybe it's fine to go do it 1083 00:53:36,220 --> 00:53:37,860 right. There's a it's not like it's 1084 00:53:37,860 --> 00:53:40,140 this like it's not a silver bullet for fixing. 1085 00:53:40,140 --> 00:53:43,700 It's also not going to hinder recovery to the to a huge 1086 00:53:43,700 --> 00:53:47,580 amount. So, yeah, I think going back to 1087 00:53:47,580 --> 00:53:50,880 your question. I would say you were asking if 1088 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,040 it just masks symptoms. I'd say it's a little more than 1089 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,520 that. It has to do with impeding the 1090 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,440 inflammatory process. But the conventional wisdom 1091 00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:01,280 right now is that icing is not something that's going to lead 1092 00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:04,400 to healing or improvement in your symptoms. 1093 00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:07,400 It might improve your symptoms from a pain or like the 1094 00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,760 perception standpoint, but it's not going to heal any tissues 1095 00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:11,840 and if you don't need it, you shouldn't use it. 1096 00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:13,960 That's my take on. That's my take on icing. 1097 00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:16,920 There are better silver bullets out there, like appropriate 1098 00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,800 sleep, strength training, things like that. 1099 00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:22,800 Nutrition for sure are going to do a lot better and I think are 1100 00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:24,120 a little bit more worth your time. 1101 00:54:24,360 --> 00:54:27,120 But if you enjoy it, you know, don't overdo it. 1102 00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,880 Yeah, and I. Appreciate the question too, 1103 00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,820 because I think it. I think that's a great way to 1104 00:54:32,820 --> 00:54:35,900 muse on on stuff that you read and not just accepting every 1105 00:54:35,900 --> 00:54:37,940 single thing that you even hear from us. 1106 00:54:37,940 --> 00:54:41,300 You know we're guilty is not not contextualizing information well 1107 00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:44,940 enough, and we don't want people to apply a specific training 1108 00:54:45,140 --> 00:54:48,140 plan to something else or Pacific a specific. 1109 00:54:48,380 --> 00:54:50,980 And that's why it's not advice, it's just education and thoughts 1110 00:54:52,140 --> 00:54:54,100 exactly. But you know, somebody's 1111 00:54:54,100 --> 00:54:56,780 recommendation for wanting to lose weight as a runner to 1112 00:54:56,780 --> 00:54:59,020 perform better has to be extremely contextualized. 1113 00:54:59,020 --> 00:55:03,600 Because that's not true for LIKE. 95 to 98% of people, I 1114 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,000 made that number up. But like that like that sort of 1115 00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:12,160 advice can be totally taken out of the place and cause a lot of 1116 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:14,760 problems for people who are trying to be strong and healthy 1117 00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,520 runners and who are under fueling. 1118 00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:21,040 So again it really matters you know who's the audience and if 1119 00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,960 they are drawing from a study, who's the audience that study 1120 00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,120 too? Like who did they, who did they 1121 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,440 actually look at okay? Well, we only have time for. 1122 00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:32,380 We have time for two more questions. 1123 00:55:32,380 --> 00:55:34,620 Okay. So we don't even get through all 1124 00:55:34,620 --> 00:55:36,180 the. Ones we had on the list, but 1125 00:55:36,180 --> 00:55:39,540 this is from Suzanne and she's asking hi, I love your podcast. 1126 00:55:39,540 --> 00:55:41,140 I'm reaching out with two quick questions. 1127 00:55:41,820 --> 00:55:43,780 First, do you have a recommendation for the 1128 00:55:43,780 --> 00:55:46,300 replacement of the Nike PEG Turbo 2? 1129 00:55:47,130 --> 00:55:49,050 And here's kind of the continuation of that question 1130 00:55:49,250 --> 00:55:51,730 next. After that, after the PEG Turbo 1131 00:55:51,730 --> 00:55:54,610 Two was discontinued, switched to the sockety speed and pro 1132 00:55:54,610 --> 00:55:57,090 lineups. Now I get metatarsal pain 1133 00:55:57,090 --> 00:55:59,690 whenever I wear these shoes and wonder if it has something to do 1134 00:55:59,690 --> 00:56:01,850 with the placement of the rocker or if it's something else that I 1135 00:56:01,850 --> 00:56:04,370 should know about in avoiding when selecting my shoes in the 1136 00:56:04,370 --> 00:56:05,970 future. Thanks, I'm at a loss. 1137 00:56:05,970 --> 00:56:08,330 I want to put on my feet. The Turbo Two had nice ground 1138 00:56:08,330 --> 00:56:11,810 feel, but now I'm not so sure if I need more cushioning for that 1139 00:56:11,810 --> 00:56:15,410 metatarsal pain or if my feet are just weak now from wearing 1140 00:56:15,410 --> 00:56:16,890 those shoes. I appreciate it. 1141 00:56:17,570 --> 00:56:20,690 So I want to jump into someone who did really enjoy the Peg 1142 00:56:20,690 --> 00:56:24,770 Turbo line and I not to, I apologize actually I'm not sorry 1143 00:56:24,770 --> 00:56:28,090 Nike, the Peg Turbo nature is not a peg Turbo. 1144 00:56:28,130 --> 00:56:30,930 It's a casual shoe that some people have been able to run in. 1145 00:56:30,930 --> 00:56:33,610 So that is not the same thing. Just FYI. 1146 00:56:34,290 --> 00:56:36,410 I am sorry Nike, I'm not trying to be mean, just trying to we 1147 00:56:36,410 --> 00:56:41,250 try to if we just say it as it is right to you give a little 1148 00:56:41,250 --> 00:56:43,770 breakdown. Of what the For people who are 1149 00:56:43,770 --> 00:56:46,890 not familiar with the PEG Turbo too, can you explain what that 1150 00:56:46,890 --> 00:56:48,490 shoe was and kind of what it was like. 1151 00:56:48,490 --> 00:56:51,410 So the PEG Turbo Two was this amazing shoe that had an 1152 00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:56,970 entirely zoom X mid sole and fairly durable out sole and it 1153 00:56:56,970 --> 00:56:58,570 had kind of, I don't know why it was called. 1154 00:56:59,130 --> 00:57:01,490 I guess it kind of looks similar to the Pegasus that daily 1155 00:57:01,490 --> 00:57:03,450 trainer, but it was so much lighter. 1156 00:57:03,450 --> 00:57:05,870 It was like, I think I'm going to say this wrong. 1157 00:57:05,870 --> 00:57:08,710 It was like low 8 ounce. No, it was like high 7 ounce 1158 00:57:09,030 --> 00:57:11,910 range, low 8 ounce range, had plenty of cushioning. 1159 00:57:11,910 --> 00:57:14,950 Under foot, was super bounce so you could run workouts in it. 1160 00:57:14,950 --> 00:57:16,910 You could do daily training. It was like, it's truly that, 1161 00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:19,670 like do it all shoe. Plus having a Zoom X midsole, 1162 00:57:19,870 --> 00:57:24,870 not having a plate really made it able to do a lot of things. 1163 00:57:24,870 --> 00:57:28,020 It was a beloved shoe. The parts of the shoe would come 1164 00:57:28,020 --> 00:57:29,180 apart. That's a different story. 1165 00:57:29,180 --> 00:57:31,500 But it was really beloved and I never really understood why Nike 1166 00:57:31,500 --> 00:57:34,020 discontinued it because it was kind of like that Brooks launch 1167 00:57:34,020 --> 00:57:36,020 where everybody loved it and when you took it away, people 1168 00:57:36,020 --> 00:57:38,660 got really upset when it came back. 1169 00:57:38,980 --> 00:57:40,820 The peg nature is not the same thing. 1170 00:57:40,820 --> 00:57:44,100 It's it's recycled Zoom X is totally different upper, so not 1171 00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:46,700 the same. I understand your frustration. 1172 00:57:46,740 --> 00:57:50,940 I get it to answer to kind of start addressing the second 1173 00:57:50,980 --> 00:57:52,260 part. And I know I didn't answer the 1174 00:57:52,260 --> 00:57:53,860 first, but I got to get to the second part first. 1175 00:57:54,100 --> 00:57:58,530 We don't have evidence yet that wearing these plated super shoes 1176 00:57:58,530 --> 00:58:00,570 necessarily makes your feet weak. 1177 00:58:00,890 --> 00:58:02,970 It's just that they're so different and they load 1178 00:58:02,970 --> 00:58:04,850 different parts of your bodies and you start working a 1179 00:58:04,850 --> 00:58:07,210 different way. If that's what you do all the 1180 00:58:07,210 --> 00:58:09,130 time, that's what you get used to. 1181 00:58:09,130 --> 00:58:11,210 And then when you switch back, it's just asking you to do 1182 00:58:11,210 --> 00:58:13,930 something so different than oftentimes it can be difficult. 1183 00:58:14,130 --> 00:58:16,770 So we don't have the evidence yet saying, yes, your intrinsic 1184 00:58:16,770 --> 00:58:20,480 foot muscles are atrophying. It's more like we do, do we? 1185 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:22,600 We do have. Evidence on the other side, 1186 00:58:22,600 --> 00:58:26,960 where people who wear minimalist footwear had a hypertrophy of 1187 00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,800 their yes, intrinsic footwear. So we have the evidence that 1188 00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,400 direction, but we don't have the like the contrary because they 1189 00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:35,400 were comparing to traditional running shoes and then 1190 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:37,400 minimalist, not to these like super shoes. 1191 00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:40,520 So we don't really know exactly if it means, oh, you're gonna 1192 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,080 atrophy or not, right? Not. 1193 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:43,280 Had that evidence? Yeah. 1194 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:45,040 I think it keeps going, Yeah. You don't. 1195 00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,720 There's no magic shoes. They don't give you energy. 1196 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,960 So I would bet money if you did a study that if you look to the 1197 00:58:49,960 --> 00:58:54,080 whole body that you would see hypertrophy of the like quads 1198 00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,680 and glutes in response to having to stabilize more and having 1199 00:58:57,680 --> 00:58:59,480 work shifted up there. But that's a different story. 1200 00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:00,720 So don't worry about the weakness part. 1201 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,480 Just know that you're doing something very different than 1202 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:05,440 you did in the past, and your body's going to get used to that 1203 00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:06,480 if you train in that all the time. 1204 00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,160 Which is also why we suggest maybe training at a couple 1205 00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:12,080 different things just for like that adaptability. 1206 00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,000 But what I'm hearing it sounds like you may be having trouble 1207 00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,040 either a with the plate and the stiffness because the PEG turbo 1208 00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,120 didn't have a plate, whereas the pro and Speed certainly do and 1209 00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:25,440 potentially the four foot rocker, right? 1210 00:59:25,440 --> 00:59:29,000 Because again that is how that angles is going to be different 1211 00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,480 to each person if it's not hitting you the right way. 1212 00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,080 And if we know from the research if it does not line up with your 1213 00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:37,440 first toe joint with the metatarsal phalangeal joints 1214 00:59:37,720 --> 00:59:40,560 that that can actually increase that stress and make it even 1215 00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:43,860 more stiff as opposed to doing what they say it's going to help 1216 00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:47,100 roll you forward. So I'm almost wondering my brain 1217 00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:50,620 went to hey can I find you a couple of non plated shoes that 1218 00:59:50,620 --> 00:59:54,900 still have that nice foam that maybe aren't you know as stiff. 1219 00:59:54,900 --> 00:59:57,260 So the two shoes that came to mind was one of them was the 1220 00:59:57,260 --> 01:00:00,580 Topo Specter which is still a little higher stack still has a 1221 01:00:00,580 --> 01:00:03,100 little bit of that special P backs foam in the midsole 1222 01:00:03,100 --> 01:00:06,580 without being a true super shoe and it does have some 1223 01:00:06,580 --> 01:00:09,700 flexibility in the four foot with a fairly nice smooth rocker 1224 01:00:10,020 --> 01:00:12,300 off the front. The other shoe that I kind of 1225 01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:14,860 thought of that was still kind of in that and it's they're both 1226 01:00:14,860 --> 01:00:18,340 in that lightweight eightish oz range was also the ASICS Evil 1227 01:00:18,340 --> 01:00:20,540 ride speed, which I really enjoyed. 1228 01:00:20,540 --> 01:00:23,540 It didn't get a lot of press and when I posted a. 1229 01:00:23,940 --> 01:00:25,700 Video review. There's a lot of views because 1230 01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:29,540 there weren't any other reviews of it, but that's another one 1231 01:00:29,540 --> 01:00:31,260 where again, it's not necessarily a super foam. 1232 01:00:31,380 --> 01:00:34,660 It's got some flexibility, but it really reminded me of the PEG 1233 01:00:34,660 --> 01:00:38,340 Turbo for its versatility. Nice bouncy foam underfoot, not 1234 01:00:38,340 --> 01:00:41,660 plated, just a teeny bit snug, a little like that kind of half 1235 01:00:41,660 --> 01:00:45,260 trainer, half performance shoe. But the ASICS evil ride speed is 1236 01:00:45,260 --> 01:00:47,780 something I would check out just because I think that rocker and 1237 01:00:47,780 --> 01:00:50,060 the flexibility is going to bounce out a little bit better 1238 01:00:50,420 --> 01:00:55,380 than maybe what the endorphin speed and pro endorphins. 1239 01:00:55,580 --> 01:00:58,340 Pro are doing just because of the combination of the plate and 1240 01:00:58,340 --> 01:01:01,220 where the rocker is, which again is going to work really well for 1241 01:01:01,220 --> 01:01:02,700 some people. It works really well for me. 1242 01:01:02,940 --> 01:01:05,540 It's obviously may not be working well for you, but I'd 1243 01:01:05,540 --> 01:01:07,420 say don't worry about the weakness part. 1244 01:01:07,420 --> 01:01:10,780 Just go, hey, you're putting your feet in a very different 1245 01:01:10,780 --> 01:01:13,980 shoe type, and your body is getting used to that type. 1246 01:01:14,500 --> 01:01:16,460 And it's not that you're getting weak if you're training and 1247 01:01:16,460 --> 01:01:19,340 doing everything, it's just that you're having to do something 1248 01:01:19,340 --> 01:01:20,660 different. And if you do something 1249 01:01:20,660 --> 01:01:22,980 different all the time and aren't used to that old thing, 1250 01:01:23,100 --> 01:01:25,020 that old thing's going to become more difficult. 1251 01:01:25,380 --> 01:01:28,500 So yeah, maybe a couple options. Might not be a bad idea. 1252 01:01:28,540 --> 01:01:31,210 Yeah, the. The other shoe, so this is 1253 01:01:31,210 --> 01:01:33,650 coming from someone who's never ran in the PEG Turbo or the PEG 1254 01:01:33,650 --> 01:01:37,210 Turbo 2, but from you just describing Nikes shoe with their 1255 01:01:37,210 --> 01:01:39,330 kind of like P backs film. Their trainer that they do that 1256 01:01:39,330 --> 01:01:42,810 now with is the Invincible 3. Hard for me to fully recommend 1257 01:01:42,810 --> 01:01:45,530 that shoe because the fit honestly is just bad in the 1258 01:01:45,530 --> 01:01:47,130 heel. Like it does not hold the heel 1259 01:01:47,130 --> 01:01:49,250 for me at all. And I know our other testers had 1260 01:01:49,250 --> 01:01:51,130 similar experience. If they dialed that in, I would. 1261 01:01:51,330 --> 01:01:53,930 That might be my trainer of the year, but it does have that, you 1262 01:01:53,930 --> 01:01:56,390 know. A good amount of cushion under 1263 01:01:56,390 --> 01:01:58,430 your under foot. It's it's big. 1264 01:01:58,430 --> 01:02:00,710 It's high stacked. It's got a wider base to. 1265 01:02:01,550 --> 01:02:03,870 It's got a little bit of a rocker, but it still is slightly 1266 01:02:03,870 --> 01:02:06,910 flexible. And so I know you kind of 1267 01:02:06,910 --> 01:02:08,950 mentioned that ground feel. And I found that even though 1268 01:02:08,950 --> 01:02:13,390 that she was really high, I felt connected to the ground on the 1269 01:02:13,390 --> 01:02:15,150 runs that I did with it. And I did. 1270 01:02:15,190 --> 01:02:19,670 I did everything from I did like some of my fastest workouts when 1271 01:02:19,670 --> 01:02:24,710 I was training for my. Not my fastest but my longest 1272 01:02:24,710 --> 01:02:27,270 like threshold work I did in the Invincible when I was training 1273 01:02:27,270 --> 01:02:31,510 for my 20 Ki, did multiple like it was like 2 miles on one mile 1274 01:02:31,510 --> 01:02:35,390 off repeats at like 10K pace for me and it did great and I was 1275 01:02:35,390 --> 01:02:39,390 like over you know 10 a 10 mile workout and stuff. 1276 01:02:39,390 --> 01:02:44,150 So not that it's anything similar but it does have the P 1277 01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:45,870 backs foam in the trainer without a plate. 1278 01:02:45,870 --> 01:02:47,510 A little bit of a rocker, but not as much. 1279 01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:50,680 A little bit of flexibility and. Feel kind of grounded, but the 1280 01:02:50,680 --> 01:02:53,560 heels just needs to be refined. So hopefully the four just fixes 1281 01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:55,360 that and then that might be my trainer of the year. 1282 01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,800 Next year if they can fix the fit, that's that's the issue for 1283 01:02:59,800 --> 01:03:02,880 me. All right, we are on to our 1284 01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:05,840 final question. This room KS runs and they're 1285 01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:09,680 asking what discontinued shoe line or lines would you like to 1286 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,960 see brought back with contemporary technology. 1287 01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,900 What pops into your head, Matt? So there was two. 1288 01:03:15,900 --> 01:03:18,900 There is one big one, just because I've been thinking about 1289 01:03:18,900 --> 01:03:21,660 this with the Brooks ghost Max, and then I got to give Nathan 1290 01:03:21,660 --> 01:03:24,060 credit for the other one that I was that was kind of in the back 1291 01:03:24,060 --> 01:03:26,060 of my mind. So the fierce first thing. 1292 01:03:26,060 --> 01:03:27,380 This might be a little controversial. 1293 01:03:27,620 --> 01:03:31,180 I would love to see the Brooks pure line come back. 1294 01:03:31,460 --> 01:03:33,620 I love the pure cadence, the pure flow. 1295 01:03:33,860 --> 01:03:37,380 The Brooks Ghost Max kind of reminds me of a higher sack 1296 01:03:37,380 --> 01:03:41,340 height, pure flow that's not not quite as flexible, that I and I 1297 01:03:41,340 --> 01:03:45,660 really enjoyed that shoe. I know some of the the Pure 1298 01:03:45,660 --> 01:03:49,180 Drift and I'm forgetting the other one that actually worked 1299 01:03:49,180 --> 01:03:54,060 really well for a lot of people is racing flat are kind of some 1300 01:03:54,060 --> 01:03:57,750 people like those shoes, some people hated them and one of 1301 01:03:57,750 --> 01:04:01,030 those might be on the Brooks wall of Shame that they have in 1302 01:04:01,030 --> 01:04:03,990 their developments departments. Maybe I was supposed to say 1303 01:04:03,990 --> 01:04:07,790 that, but I really enjoyed that. The other two that I would 1304 01:04:07,790 --> 01:04:11,150 really love to see in current day is the oh before you go 1305 01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:12,190 before. You go to the next one. 1306 01:04:12,190 --> 01:04:15,910 I gotta ask you, yeah, you think that the that pure line could be 1307 01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:18,710 brought back with new tech that Brooks currently has? 1308 01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:22,310 Like do they have this is, do they have new tech? 1309 01:04:22,850 --> 01:04:25,690 Contemporary tech, or are they not quite there? 1310 01:04:25,690 --> 01:04:27,650 What's your take on that? Like, could they bring back the 1311 01:04:27,650 --> 01:04:30,730 pure line with what they currently have materials wise, 1312 01:04:30,730 --> 01:04:32,650 or do they need? Would you want something 1313 01:04:32,650 --> 01:04:34,490 different? They're gonna get mad at me for 1314 01:04:34,490 --> 01:04:35,850 this. Doesn't matter, all right. 1315 01:04:36,210 --> 01:04:40,090 I'm gonna say that, no, I don't think they have enough new 1316 01:04:40,090 --> 01:04:42,490 technology for that to really be updated. 1317 01:04:42,850 --> 01:04:44,930 And maybe I just want it. I don't know. 1318 01:04:45,010 --> 01:04:49,040 That's a good question. So maybe not, Yeah, because I 1319 01:04:49,040 --> 01:04:50,480 think about what they have. They have, yeah. 1320 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:53,360 They have shoes that that landed super well for some of our team 1321 01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:56,040 members, right. They have like the, the Hyperion 1322 01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:56,600 Max. Yeah. 1323 01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:58,560 Like that's one of Andrea's best shoes this year. 1324 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,480 She's put in like 400 miles on a couple pairs of that of that 1325 01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:03,760 shoe, right. So she's like it's not that they 1326 01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:06,640 don't have shoes that work, but their foam, the options are 1327 01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,640 what's in the Hyperion Max, what they put in the Hyperion kind of 1328 01:05:09,640 --> 01:05:13,960 line stuff and then they have you know the DNA loft and it's 1329 01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,760 just is that enough? And it I I would say it feels 1330 01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:20,360 different than. What other companies have in 1331 01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:24,200 their arsenal like it doesn't feel as responsive or as bouncy, 1332 01:05:25,320 --> 01:05:29,440 even even the Max, which is a nice shoe, I I didn't dislike 1333 01:05:29,440 --> 01:05:32,120 running it, but it doesn't feel like it has a lot of pop to it. 1334 01:05:32,400 --> 01:05:35,600 So I think it's a fair question and I think that they would 1335 01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:39,320 probably self analyze that too. They're it's not like bricks 1336 01:05:39,320 --> 01:05:43,760 doesn't sell well, like they're doing fantastic, but they just 1337 01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:47,760 don't have, you know, super high performing foams right now. 1338 01:05:48,220 --> 01:05:50,380 And they could come and show us their numbers and maybe we'd be 1339 01:05:50,380 --> 01:05:52,900 wrong, but from a field standpoint, it doesn't feel that 1340 01:05:52,900 --> 01:05:54,620 way. The Ghost Max, I guess that's 1341 01:05:54,620 --> 01:05:57,860 it's a huge change, though. The Ghost Max feels like a 1342 01:05:58,220 --> 01:06:01,300 contemporary daily trainer and feels good. 1343 01:06:02,100 --> 01:06:02,900 Yeah. No, I'm sorry. 1344 01:06:03,380 --> 01:06:05,980 No, it's fine. It is true, I think that things 1345 01:06:06,260 --> 01:06:09,300 Brooks does a lot of things well, they do consistency really 1346 01:06:09,300 --> 01:06:11,180 well, which works for a lot of people. 1347 01:06:11,180 --> 01:06:13,420 But some of the things, their performance stuff in terms of 1348 01:06:13,420 --> 01:06:16,790 using experiment with new films, things like that, it's a little 1349 01:06:16,790 --> 01:06:21,590 it we need a little bit more, we'll have to see the the what's 1350 01:06:21,590 --> 01:06:24,870 it called. Hyperion Elite 4 isn't available 1351 01:06:24,870 --> 01:06:26,910 yet but it's now on their website and I don't think 1352 01:06:26,910 --> 01:06:29,230 they're using a new phone either but we'll have to see. 1353 01:06:29,230 --> 01:06:33,910 But I do think, yeah, I do agree with you that maybe all. 1354 01:06:33,910 --> 01:06:35,390 Right, fine. They have enough shoes on. 1355 01:06:35,390 --> 01:06:37,510 They have enough of their line that maybe that's fine. 1356 01:06:37,510 --> 01:06:41,070 So I'll just pretend that the pure flow would be in pure 1357 01:06:41,070 --> 01:06:46,200 cadence would be great again. But yeah, so they. 1358 01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:50,520 OK, so moving on, this one I think is well worth it. 1359 01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:55,640 So from Mizuno the Sayonara, which some people might argue it 1360 01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:58,160 does have a newer. I don't know why I'm forgetting 1361 01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,320 their newer it's not their super shoe, but it's a plated 1362 01:07:01,320 --> 01:07:04,360 lightweight trainer rebellion. The Rebellion that somebody 1363 01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,760 might argue that, but I don't. It's not quite the same because 1364 01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:10,500 the sayonara, even though it had some stiffness, still had that 1365 01:07:10,500 --> 01:07:14,700 such that really smooth and flexible forefoot, whereas the 1366 01:07:14,740 --> 01:07:16,620 Rebellion is not flexible at all. 1367 01:07:16,620 --> 01:07:19,300 It is too stiff, actually, for me to handle. 1368 01:07:19,580 --> 01:07:22,340 But the other thing I would love to see is to see a new because 1369 01:07:22,340 --> 01:07:24,180 Mizuno has done a phenomenal job. 1370 01:07:24,180 --> 01:07:27,340 They've really liked the Rebellion Pro, like that shoe is 1371 01:07:27,340 --> 01:07:30,940 nuts and they really did something different and 1372 01:07:30,940 --> 01:07:33,380 aggressive, which is really fun. I would love to see this 1373 01:07:33,380 --> 01:07:36,100 contemporary stuff that they have now and take the Mizzouno 1374 01:07:36,100 --> 01:07:39,260 Wave Universe series and bring that in today's market because 1375 01:07:39,260 --> 01:07:43,620 that was the other than the the RC5000 from New Balance that was 1376 01:07:43,620 --> 01:07:47,140 the lightest racing flat on the market for the longest time. 1377 01:07:47,140 --> 01:07:49,980 The Mizzouno Wave Universe Five I think actually beats the 1378 01:07:49,980 --> 01:07:51,980 RC500. I might be wrong on that in 1379 01:07:51,980 --> 01:07:54,620 terms of how light it got. And the Mizzouno Wave Universe 5 1380 01:07:54,620 --> 01:07:58,010 is what I set my 1445 road 5K PR in. 1381 01:07:58,010 --> 01:07:59,370 So it has a special place in my heart. 1382 01:07:59,690 --> 01:08:02,090 I would love to see a current day version of that as more 1383 01:08:02,090 --> 01:08:06,290 companies like Hoko with the Celia Road or Nike. 1384 01:08:06,330 --> 01:08:09,930 The street fly is yeah, I guess St. fly in there and then 1385 01:08:09,970 --> 01:08:13,170 Saucony with the sinister to see Mizuno come and be like let us 1386 01:08:13,170 --> 01:08:16,609 show you how to do a truly super lightweight shoe with the Super 1387 01:08:16,609 --> 01:08:18,689 foam. That's that's the one I would 1388 01:08:18,689 --> 01:08:22,450 like to see come back, but we'll have to see if they respond to 1389 01:08:22,450 --> 01:08:23,770 that. What about you? 1390 01:08:24,279 --> 01:08:26,920 You know, it's funny, I. Have because I didn't start 1391 01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:30,279 running until college, I haven't really lived through the 1392 01:08:30,279 --> 01:08:35,479 extinction of lines that I loved, so I don't really have 1393 01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:38,160 have an answer to the question. I would say the only issue that 1394 01:08:38,160 --> 01:08:42,720 came to mind was my first running shoe was. 1395 01:08:43,609 --> 01:08:48,210 The New Balance 890 and it was like Battle A. 1396 01:08:48,490 --> 01:08:51,290 And so they've kind of discontinued that a bit. 1397 01:08:51,290 --> 01:08:54,130 I think it fell off maybe like three or four years ago, but I 1398 01:08:54,130 --> 01:08:56,890 just like it it and I didn't have any, I didn't have any 1399 01:08:56,890 --> 01:08:59,330 conception of like what the shoes were on the market, right. 1400 01:08:59,330 --> 01:09:01,130 Like I just went to his shoe store, tried it on. 1401 01:09:01,130 --> 01:09:03,649 I like this one and I got it. So I don't know if I'd actually 1402 01:09:03,649 --> 01:09:05,609 want it back, but that's the one I'm like, I don't think it 1403 01:09:05,609 --> 01:09:07,810 exists anymore. It'd be fun to have that kind 1404 01:09:07,810 --> 01:09:08,930 of. It was a lightweight trainer. 1405 01:09:09,010 --> 01:09:13,240 That's what it was. But I got to add 1, I got to add 1406 01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,800 1. OK, so the New Balance 904 and 1407 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:19,319 905, I'll be very impressed. If anybody knows that was a mild 1408 01:09:19,319 --> 01:09:23,080 stability, lightweight trainer. And the reason I'm saying this 1409 01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:26,319 is because those shoes have kind of disappeared actually talking 1410 01:09:26,319 --> 01:09:31,160 to type A9. What about that or like, so I 1411 01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,979 would like to see the fast switch on the DS trainer come 1412 01:09:34,979 --> 01:09:38,060 back with new age technology because all the mild stability 1413 01:09:38,460 --> 01:09:41,899 lightweight trainers are basically dead outside of the 1414 01:09:42,060 --> 01:09:46,260 Hyperion GTS and the launch GTS. So yeah, you still you 1415 01:09:46,300 --> 01:09:47,939 considered Tempest in that realm or no? 1416 01:09:49,140 --> 01:09:51,220 Not quite. I do have that too. 1417 01:09:51,220 --> 01:09:52,420 Not so. It's more of that. 1418 01:09:52,420 --> 01:09:55,500 It's more of a trainer, right? It's meant to like it's got a 1419 01:09:55,500 --> 01:09:57,300 super foam, it's got stability, but it's more like the 1420 01:09:57,300 --> 01:10:01,730 combination of the new age Hurricane being lighter. 1421 01:10:01,890 --> 01:10:04,170 But those like light, light, stability shoes. 1422 01:10:04,170 --> 01:10:06,810 Like we got to come back like the fast Switch is a great one 1423 01:10:07,490 --> 01:10:11,330 from Saucony. Yeah, some of those would be 1424 01:10:11,330 --> 01:10:13,090 really, really fun to see with newer tech. 1425 01:10:13,890 --> 01:10:15,410 Yeah. And you know all the 1426 01:10:15,410 --> 01:10:17,690 conversations about these, you know, I think our conversation 1427 01:10:17,690 --> 01:10:20,290 about Brooks about do they have the technology to like give 1428 01:10:20,290 --> 01:10:22,690 contemporary feel to their older lines. 1429 01:10:22,690 --> 01:10:25,970 And I think what we've learned over this past year, a great 1430 01:10:25,970 --> 01:10:28,090 case study is ASICS, right. I think there was a number of 1431 01:10:28,090 --> 01:10:31,290 years where people are like man, ASICS really fell behind. 1432 01:10:31,290 --> 01:10:32,850 They they aren't with it anymore. 1433 01:10:32,850 --> 01:10:34,610 They don't whatever. But behind the scenes they've 1434 01:10:34,610 --> 01:10:36,610 been working on stuff to relaunch really well. 1435 01:10:36,690 --> 01:10:39,810 And now they're one of, I would say the leaders in terms of your 1436 01:10:39,810 --> 01:10:43,290 options for performance shoes and and their daily training 1437 01:10:43,290 --> 01:10:45,210 line is just. Really, I think they're just 1438 01:10:45,210 --> 01:10:49,770 robust from top to bottom. So what a company looks like now 1439 01:10:49,890 --> 01:10:52,770 could be totally different in three, five years from now. 1440 01:10:53,010 --> 01:10:56,410 I know we know we've met Brooks, like development team. 1441 01:10:56,410 --> 01:10:58,490 We've met their people in their science department. 1442 01:10:58,890 --> 01:11:01,610 They're all really great people, smart people. 1443 01:11:01,610 --> 01:11:03,610 They know what they're doing. So who knows what they're gonna 1444 01:11:03,610 --> 01:11:04,130 do. But. 1445 01:11:05,920 --> 01:11:08,920 Just a snapshot of now from a performance side doesn't say 1446 01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:10,520 what they're going to be in three years from now. 1447 01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,960 You can all redefine yourselves as you as you go about Hoka even 1448 01:11:13,960 --> 01:11:17,680 the same way. Not that again Hoka does well in 1449 01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:21,200 sales, but I think that they're until they came out with this 1450 01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:24,920 Rocket X2, they would have been lacking in the performance shoe 1451 01:11:24,920 --> 01:11:27,640 realm. They had the the Carbon X but it 1452 01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,620 didn't have a super foam and it. I don't know. 1453 01:11:30,820 --> 01:11:33,020 So I think that there's there's always room for these companies 1454 01:11:33,020 --> 01:11:35,500 to strive and push. And I I think they're all of a 1455 01:11:35,500 --> 01:11:37,620 really good pulse on where they're at and what their goals 1456 01:11:37,620 --> 01:11:39,060 are. So if they don't go that 1457 01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:41,420 direction, that's just not what they want to do and that's, 1458 01:11:41,420 --> 01:11:43,140 that's their decision, what they get to do. 1459 01:11:43,140 --> 01:11:46,340 So, all right. I will also say Brooks is 1460 01:11:46,340 --> 01:11:49,380 working on some very cool stuff. I wouldn't say necessarily, I 1461 01:11:49,380 --> 01:11:52,500 don't know about their performance line, but in terms 1462 01:11:52,500 --> 01:11:55,900 of where they're going with making shoes that adapt really 1463 01:11:55,900 --> 01:11:59,700 well, the different people looking at some stuff with dash 1464 01:11:59,700 --> 01:12:02,260 elect. So those of you that doing some 1465 01:12:02,260 --> 01:12:05,540 really cool stuff on metrics and seeing how they can make better 1466 01:12:05,540 --> 01:12:08,140 footwear for better people kind of focusing Hope this doesn't 1467 01:12:08,140 --> 01:12:11,420 come out the wrong way on on the average run of the classic run 1468 01:12:11,420 --> 01:12:13,340 of the majority of people are going to be using their daily 1469 01:12:13,340 --> 01:12:15,860 trainers. They are doing a lot of work in 1470 01:12:15,860 --> 01:12:17,580 that realm. So while they might not be the 1471 01:12:17,580 --> 01:12:19,980 most performance oriented company, they are certainly 1472 01:12:19,980 --> 01:12:23,260 still doing well from a, you know, hey, this is a classic 1473 01:12:23,260 --> 01:12:25,420 daily training shoe that's going to work well for the majority 1474 01:12:25,820 --> 01:12:29,180 and how do we make this continue to refine this to work better 1475 01:12:29,340 --> 01:12:31,860 for the majority of runners. So they are doing that. 1476 01:12:31,860 --> 01:12:35,020 There's just only so many things you can work on it once, right. 1477 01:12:35,140 --> 01:12:37,340 So we got the Burke's. Pure line, the Scion R and 1478 01:12:37,340 --> 01:12:40,140 Universe series. We got all these lightweight. 1479 01:12:40,770 --> 01:12:43,330 Stability racing. Ish kind of shoes. 1480 01:12:43,330 --> 01:12:47,730 What did you say, the 905906? Yeah, 905 from New Balance or 1481 01:12:47,730 --> 01:12:51,290 904905 the fastest 4905. And then the DS trainer. 1482 01:12:51,290 --> 01:12:53,690 Mostly I'm really upset. And so are many people that have 1483 01:12:53,690 --> 01:12:57,010 emailed me going, Oh my gosh, a six killed the DS trainer. 1484 01:12:57,010 --> 01:12:58,690 I'm stocking up. What do I do now? 1485 01:12:59,450 --> 01:13:01,810 We'd love to see that. So let's still. 1486 01:13:01,850 --> 01:13:04,290 Love that show. That's great. 1487 01:13:05,110 --> 01:13:06,470 All right. Well, thank you all for joining 1488 01:13:06,470 --> 01:13:08,870 us for this Mail Bank episode. We didn't even get through the 1489 01:13:08,870 --> 01:13:10,750 list that we thought we could get through today. 1490 01:13:10,750 --> 01:13:12,830 So we will continue to address your questions. 1491 01:13:12,830 --> 01:13:15,390 But if you have more, please post them below or e-mail us at 1492 01:13:15,670 --> 01:13:19,510 doctorsofrunning@gmail.com. Almost didn't remember our 1493 01:13:19,510 --> 01:13:21,150 e-mail, doctorsarerunning@gmail.com. 1494 01:13:21,390 --> 01:13:24,590 And as always, you can follow us on all the social platforms and 1495 01:13:24,590 --> 01:13:26,350 we look forward to talking to you next time. 1496 01:13:34,960 --> 01:13:35,480 Well, we made it.