1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:02,440 All right. Well, welcome. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,000 Welcome to my talk. Should I convert to Rome? 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:10,640 There's a little bit of a title change, more on that and a 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,920 little bit. But before we get started, let 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,320 me go ahead and pray because this is a very important topic. 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:21,040 It can be a sensitive topic. I also think it's an urgent 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:24,120 topic. And if done rightly, I think it 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:28,040 can actually help us in our sense of the church's mission 9 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:30,800 and of our identity as the people of God. 10 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,560 So pray with me. Heavenly Father, we thank you 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,320 for the gifts of your Son Jesus Christ, for the outpouring of 12 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,400 your Holy Spirit. We thank you for the birth of 13 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,200 the church at Pentecost, and we thank you for our birth into the 14 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,040 Church through baptism. I pray that what I say today 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,120 will be honoring to your name and that it will help us be more 16 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,000 faithful as your people, that it will help us know the clarity of 17 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,920 the gospel above all, and that it will help us in our unity 18 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,320 globally as the Body of Christ. I pray this through Christ, our 19 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:09,920 risen Lord, our Advocate, our Mediator, our Lord Jesus. 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,040 Christ. Amen. 21 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,000 OK, so I have retitled this talk Should I convert to Rome 22 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,240 Protestantism for the global church. 23 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,680 This is specifically addressed to our context as Anglicans, 24 00:01:25,960 --> 00:01:29,080 many of whom have come from low church backgrounds or 25 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,680 evangelical backgrounds where we know nothing of liturgy. 26 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,960 And then when we discover it, it's, it's, it's, it's amazing 27 00:01:36,320 --> 00:01:39,680 for the first time hearing, passing the peace or hearing the 28 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:44,000 blessing of the Triune God bestowed upon you, the first 29 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:48,640 time hearing the Nicene Creed spoken in a corporate context. 30 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:53,280 These are amazing treasures that when we discover them, it leads 31 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:58,120 us into liturgical worship and also perhaps leads us to ask the 32 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:02,440 question, how far should I go in this path of liturgy? 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:07,520 Do other church traditions have a more faithful inheritance or 34 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,240 stewarding of this liturgical tradition? 35 00:02:10,759 --> 00:02:13,720 Is Rome inevitably the question that's asked? 36 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:20,480 Is Rome the truest, most faithful, exclusive heir of this 37 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,600 tradition of the Church? I'd like to answer that question 38 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:30,600 today by making a hopefully robust case for Protestantism as 39 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,360 a gift to the ecumenical body of Christ. 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:38,880 Global ecumenical, basically synonymous in the Greek oiku 41 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,280 mune, the globe, the known world, global Christianity. 42 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:48,080 I like to make the case that Protestantism offers a faithful 43 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:53,280 expression of the global church, and it challenges the rest of 44 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,960 the global church, global Church, whether Orthodox or 45 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,440 Catholic, to a more faithful adherence to the Gospel. 46 00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:01,400 Let's go ahead to the next slide. 47 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:05,640 I'd like to make the case for these Protestant goods that we 48 00:03:05,640 --> 00:03:10,680 can retrieve them for the ecumenical church and for our 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,480 own life as Christians. These three goods I'll call 50 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:19,880 historic ecumenism, prophetic ecclesiology, and gospel 51 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:21,680 clarity. Historic ecumenism. 52 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,760 Let's go to the next slide. Historic ecumenism is the case 53 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:31,640 that we are part of a global body that is represented equally 54 00:03:31,640 --> 00:03:36,960 in every sector where the Church is planted and that it is united 55 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:40,640 under the head, Jesus Christ himself. 56 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,160 Now I'd like to compare a Roman Catholic understanding of this 57 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,320 ecumenism to a Protestant understanding of this ecumenism. 58 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:52,400 This is Pope Pius the 9th, the convener of Vatican One, the 59 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:56,560 First Vatican Council in 1868 to 1870. 60 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,320 This is what he said. If anyone therefore shall say 61 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,320 that the Blessed Peter the Apostle was not appointed the 62 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,760 Prince of all the apostles and the visible head of the whole 63 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,800 Church militant, or that the same directly and immediately 64 00:04:10,800 --> 00:04:15,320 receive the same our Lord Jesus Christ from the same, a primacy 65 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:20,120 of honor only and not of true and proper jurisdiction, let him 66 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:22,079 be anathema. Let's go to the next slide. 67 00:04:22,079 --> 00:04:25,760 It continues, therefore, it has always been necessary that each 68 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:29,400 Church, that is, those who are the faithful everywhere, should 69 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,640 agree with the Roman Church, because of the greater power of 70 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,680 the principality that she, the Roman Church, has received. 71 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:39,800 In order that all being joined together in the unity of that 72 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,560 seat, Peter's seat in Rome, from the veneration of which the 73 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,200 rights of communion flows to all, might associate closely as 74 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,200 members of one head, Christ, represented by Peter in the 75 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,160 compact unity of the body. If then, any should deny that it 76 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,080 is by the institution of Christ the Lord, and by divine right, 77 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,920 that blessed Peter should have a perpetual line of successors in 78 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,520 the primacy over the universal Church, or that the Roman 79 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,800 Pontiff is a successor of blessed Peter in this primacy, 80 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,800 let him be anathema. I think I have another portion 81 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,680 of that quote. If anyone then, shall say that 82 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,680 the Roman Pontiff has the office merely of inspection or 83 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:26,400 direction, so something that we might have in a Episcopal Church 84 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,120 polity, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,680 over the universal Church. Let only not only in the things 86 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,640 which belong to faith and morals, but also in those which 87 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,320 relate to the discipline and government of the Church spread 88 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,240 throughout the world. Or assert that he possesses 89 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:48,080 merely the principal part and not all the fullness of this 90 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,760 supreme power, or that this power which he enjoys is not 91 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,560 ordinary and immediate both over each and all the churches and 92 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,040 over each and all the pastors and the faithful. 93 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,240 Let him be anathema. That's the papal encyclical 94 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,880 Pastor Eternis, which came as a result of the First Vatican 95 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,480 Council. Let's be clear what the Roman 96 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,280 Catholic teaching is here. As a side note, this lecture 97 00:06:12,280 --> 00:06:14,760 will be slightly different in format than the previous two. 98 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,040 This will be what I'll use, the common academic lecture format. 99 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:22,600 I'll aim to have my lecture finished in half an hour to 45 100 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,240 minutes, and then it'll be a free for all question answer 101 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:26,760 time afterwards. Sound good? 102 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:32,520 Let's do that. OK, so Petra and supremacy, To 103 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,520 what extent does this foster ecumenism? 104 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,440 Notice how this Petra and supremacy and later papal 105 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,640 infallibility actually at the same time becomes Catholic dogma 106 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:50,840 only at the Vatican 1 Council. Now that's a good Roman Catholic 107 00:06:50,840 --> 00:06:53,080 argument. In favor of this would be this 108 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,840 is just putting an official decree on what had always been 109 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:58,880 the practice in the historic Church, Church. 110 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,120 However the case may be, it is quite clear that there is a 111 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:09,600 supremacy and an exclusivity given to the Roman Pontiff to 112 00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:15,800 the exclusion of those who claim other lineages going back to 113 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,280 Christ, even if those be Apostolic lineages. 114 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,360 Let's compare this to Scripture and let's compare this to the 115 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,840 1st 2 1/2 centuries of Christianity. 116 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,040 Let's go to our next slide, historic ecumenism. 117 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:35,680 How does it, how do we see it displayed or born in the New 118 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,120 Testament? First of all, Acts 15 verses one 119 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,840 through 21, the first council of the church, the Jerusalem 120 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:46,400 Council, where the collective witness of the apostles and the 121 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:51,960 elders gathered at Jerusalem. Notice Peter does speak up, but 122 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,720 he only speaks up along with Paul and Barnabas. 123 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:58,280 And James presides over the council. 124 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:03,840 He presides over the assembly, and James has the final word. 125 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,440 Notice how Paul lists these pillars of the church in 126 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:11,240 Jerusalem. He calls them Cephas. 127 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:16,440 And let's see here James, Cephas the rock, and John in that 128 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,480 order. Peter does not have preeminence 129 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:23,800 in this passage in Galatians 2, and he's actually soon to be 130 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:29,160 rebuked in the following verse. Peter is one of several pillars 131 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,400 of the church in the earliest form of Christianity. 132 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,919 Notice also that Peter and James do the same thing with their 133 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:42,320 introductions in their letters. Peter to a certain extent offers 134 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:46,200 a blessing to the Catholic Church in Asia Minor, Pontius 135 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:49,040 Bithynia, and Galatia in first Peter 11. 136 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,720 And he does it from Babylon, that is Rome. 137 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:56,440 So he is acting like a Bishop based in Rome, blessing a large 138 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,520 part of the body of Christ. But James does exactly the same 139 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:03,080 thing. In fact, he does it in a broader 140 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,520 audience. James chapter one, verse 1. 141 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,400 James, the brother of the Lord, to whom he says to the 12 tribes 142 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,520 of the dispersion. In other words, this diaspora, 143 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:19,680 this dispersed ecumenical body of Christ spread throughout the 144 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,320 world. James is exerting the exact same 145 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,680 kind of Apostolic authority as Peter in the New Testament. 146 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:32,360 Also look at Revelation One through 3, the seven churches 147 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,720 represented by the seven lampstands. 7 is a symbolic 148 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,560 number in Revelation and should be appreciated as such. 149 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,280 It represents the complete ecumenical church. 150 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,600 Rome is not even mentioned as one of those seven churches. 151 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,160 They're all located in Asia Minor and Rome doesn't even 152 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,240 feature in apocalypses heavenly ecclesiology unless we interpret 153 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,000 Babylon as the Roman church, which as much as they like 154 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,720 Luther, I think this might be a little bit of a stretch on his 155 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,040 part. So in the New Testament, the 156 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:11,240 ecumenical body of Christ does not have Peter as its head. 157 00:10:11,560 --> 00:10:15,960 Our earliest documents show James functioning as a head when 158 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,480 it comes to the Jerusalem Council, and James and Peter in 159 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:24,280 their own settings establishing the Apostolic Gospel by their 160 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,520 own Apostolic credentials, and Paul also appealing to that same 161 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,880 level of credentials. Let's go to the next slide. 162 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:37,000 Then we move forward 100 years to the 2nd century AD. 163 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,640 We have this apocryphal text called the Epistola Apostolorum. 164 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,400 It's usually featured with several other apocryphal 165 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,600 gospels, but what's interesting about this one is it's actually 166 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,200 not a heretical document. It's Proto Orthodox. 167 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:53,680 It's promoting. The. 168 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:58,760 Incarnation of Jesus Christ, his full embodiment, and it's it's 169 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,600 advocating for the Apostolic faith of the physical 170 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,080 resurrection of Jesus. In this document, Peter is not 171 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,960 named first. He's named third after John. 172 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,200 This document likely originates in Asia Minor, and it encourages 173 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,320 the same network of churches that Revelation encouraged, 174 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:20,440 probably Yohannian churches that had traced their Apostolic 175 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,280 descent from John, not from Peter. 176 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:28,200 And so this document with John as the head, as the chief 177 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,640 representative of the church, gives a thoroughly Yohannian 178 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:38,920 Apostolic case for the Gospel. Now this, this is creating a 179 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,880 tension to be sure. You have Asian, Asian minor 180 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:45,920 Christians appealing to John as their progenitor. 181 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:49,280 And then you have Roman Christians appealing to Peter. 182 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:54,000 And you see a little bit of a tension emerging between those 183 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,360 two. We'll, we'll explore this 184 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,040 tension in our next, our next segment. 185 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,920 But let's appreciate how Irenaeus, St. 186 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:07,600 Irenaeus, who died around 200 AD, how he describes this 187 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:13,200 tension and also this unity, this diversity and this unity. 188 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,760 If you look at your Roman Catholic catechism, they will 189 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:21,200 point to this exact quote from Irenaeus to establish Petra and 190 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:23,200 supremacy, but they only quote the first half. 191 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,680 The Blessed Apostles having founded and built up the Church, 192 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,320 committed into the hands of lioness, the ministry of the 193 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:33,720 bishopric. I've translated this very 194 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:39,960 woodenly and then after that it goes on to assert the the the 195 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,560 validity and Apostolic origin of the Roman Church. 196 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:46,920 That quote is definitely worth seeing in full. 197 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:53,000 I can share that in our question and answer time and usually in 198 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,240 our Roman Catholic catechisms, we see that put to the front 199 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:01,600 like this is early evidence for pet triumph supremacy. 200 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,120 But then look at what he does in the very next section. 201 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:08,640 However. But Polycarp was not only 202 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,400 instructed by the apostles and conversed with many who had seen 203 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:17,200 Christ, but was also by apostles in Asia appointed Bishop of the 204 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,280 Church in Smyrna. That's modern day Ismir, Turkey. 205 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:25,880 To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also 206 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:27,840 those men who have succeeded Polycarp. 207 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,880 Also, the church in Ephesus founded by Paul and having John 208 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:37,160 remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan is a 209 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:43,320 true witness to the tradition of the apostles, not because Peter 210 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:47,000 planted the church, but because Christ planted it through Paul, 211 00:13:47,560 --> 00:13:53,360 confirmed by John, who up and to his death remained there as the 212 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,880 witness, the Apostolic witness to the Gospel. 213 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,280 Irenaeus is establishing certainly the validity of the 214 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,840 Roman Church as a faithful Apostolic Church. 215 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,360 Amen to that. He is also establishing 216 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,080 independently the validity of the Asian Church based in 217 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,880 Ephesus. Amen to that. 218 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:17,040 Irenaeus is ecumenism actually brings together the four 219 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:22,360 gospels. Mark based in Rome, John based 220 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,720 in Ephesus, Matthew presumably based somewhere in the Holy 221 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,240 Lands because it's he says that Matthew preached among the 222 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,360 Hebrews and then Luke, who traveled all over the 223 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,640 Mediterranean with Paul preaching the Gospel. 224 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:41,760 So for Irenaeus, the fourfold Gospel, Matthew, Mark, Luke and 225 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:46,160 John is the emblem of the Church, the ecumenical body of 226 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,240 Christ, with who on the throne? Not Peter, but Jesus Christ the 227 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:52,480 Lamb. He does this by an allegorical 228 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,600 interpretation of Psalm 80 verse one which says the Lord is 229 00:14:56,600 --> 00:14:59,640 seated between the cherubim. He combines that with an 230 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,560 interpretation of Ezekiel chapter 1 and the four living 231 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,000 creatures that shows the Lord the Son of Man exalted, and then 232 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,040 finally Revelation chapter 4 with those same 4 living 233 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,400 creatures exalting the living Christ. 234 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,200 So for Irenaeus, the fourfold gospel itself would be 235 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,880 undermined if one of those heads assumes supremacy and primacy. 236 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:28,120 Irenaeus, I think, advocates a truly ecumenical church 237 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,280 structure where each representative from the various 238 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,560 corners of the church are lifted up as faithful heirs of 239 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,000 Apostolic faith wherever it has been proclaimed. 240 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,840 Let's go to the next slide. We see this historic ecumenism 241 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:49,480 that's not founded in Petra and supremacy in other sectors of 242 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,680 the early church. We get to the 3rd century, 100 243 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,400 years later. Cyprian from North Africa, in a 244 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,480 correspondence with Stephen, the Bishop of Rome, said, quote, 245 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:02,240 Peter did not assert that he had a rights of seniority. 246 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:05,760 That's Primatus, quite literally, and that therefore 247 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,680 upstarts and laycomers ought to be obedient to him. 248 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,280 He further defines this unity in his tractate on the Unity of the 249 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,960 Church. This unity we ought firmly to 250 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,040 hold and assert, especially those of us that are bishops who 251 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:25,080 preside in the Church, that we may also prove the episcopate 252 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:29,120 itself to be 1 and undivided. Let no one deceive the 253 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,800 brotherhood by a falsehood. Let no one corrupt the truth or 254 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,920 the faith by perfidious prevarication. 255 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:40,640 The episcopate is 1, each part of which is held by each one for 256 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,200 the whole. He'll use this language to 257 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:47,560 describe Peter for sure, but he'll also use this language to 258 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:52,160 describe the other Apostolic progenitors of Christian faith 259 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:56,000 across the ancient Mediterranean all the way down to his own day. 260 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,880 Wherever the gospel has been faithfully preached and handed 261 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:04,160 down generation to generation, there you find the church. 262 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,599 That is why Calvin and the and the Reformers appealed so 263 00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:12,040 consistently to Cyprian. They actually have derived their 264 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:17,040 Protestant reformational ecclesiology in large part from 265 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,400 Cyprian's interpretation of the biblical witness. 266 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:23,680 Let's go to the next slide. Finally, nice scene and 267 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:26,520 following. It's interesting to see the 268 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,280 Bishop of Rome's role in our ecumenical councils. 269 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,920 The Bishop of Rome was not even at the Council of Nicaea. 270 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,000 He sent delegates. He was not at the that one. 271 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,080 That's the one that really hammered out Trinitarian 272 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,960 theology. He was not at the the Council of 273 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,720 Constantinople, the third, which really dealt with the with the 274 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,160 heresy of Monothelatism. How many wills does the 275 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,760 Incarnate Christ have? A divine will and a human will. 276 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,160 How do those interact as one absorbed into the other? 277 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,880 Or are they kept distinct? So the Bishop of Rome did not 278 00:17:59,880 --> 00:18:03,320 even he was he only sent delicates to that council. 279 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,840 Also Nicaea too, which tackled the question of iconography. 280 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,240 Only delegates were sent there. The Bishop of Rome did not even 281 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:14,880 send delegates to Constantinople with the first Council and 282 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:16,760 Constantinople the second council. 283 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:20,400 Constantinople, the first council was a reaffirmation of 284 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,400 Nicaea. Keep in mind that Rome 285 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,920 essentially became apostate between 325 and 381, with the 286 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,080 reigning emperor preferring Arianism. 287 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,000 And it took a different kind of ecclesiology to say the true 288 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,440 Church can go into exile and still remain the true church. 289 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:42,520 It doesn't have to stay at Rome. So these ecumenical councils, I 290 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:44,920 argue, were just that. They were ecumenical. 291 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,360 They were not functions of Petrine or Roman supremacy. 292 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:52,120 Now, let me clarify really quickly what I am not saying. 293 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:57,400 I'm not saying that a church based in Rome with faithful 294 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,240 passing down from generation to generation is not the church. 295 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:05,480 If and when the Roman Catholic Church has done that faithfully, 296 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,920 they are a true church. They bear those marks of the 297 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:11,680 true church. And I'm just reiterating what 298 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:15,400 Calvin and Luther would say. But what I am saying is even 299 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,960 though they are a true church, they are not the only church at 300 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:24,120 the exclusivity of the rest of the ecumenical body of Christ. 301 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:28,400 That's why I argue that Protestantism preserves a truly 302 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,680 historic ecumenism. That's my first section. 303 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:37,040 Next section, let's also look at how when the Roman when the 304 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,960 Protestant Reformation emerged, how these differing traditions 305 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,440 talked about each other. I'm going to try to show the the 306 00:19:44,440 --> 00:19:48,000 most vociferous Protestant railings against Roman Catholic 307 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,720 and let's see how how how deep they go in criticizing the Roman 308 00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:55,800 Church. Article 19 of our 39 articles. 309 00:19:56,360 --> 00:20:00,320 As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch have 310 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,560 erred, so those are different Eastern Orthodox traditions. 311 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,360 So also the Church of Rome hath erred not only in their living 312 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:12,360 and manner of ceremonies, but also in matters of faith. 313 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,920 It's not a formal anathema, it's a declaration of having gone 314 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,600 astray. Also Article 22. 315 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,400 By the way, if you're Anglican or want to be Anglican, I'd 316 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,720 strongly recommend reading the 39 articles. 317 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,560 You'll be surprised at what Anglicans believe and don't 318 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,040 believe. Hopefully you won't be too 319 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:35,320 surprised. The Romish doctrine concerning 320 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:38,640 purgatory, pardons, worshipping and adoration, as well as images 321 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:43,240 as of relics and also invocations of Saints, is a fond 322 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:45,120 thing, vainly invented and grounded upon. 323 00:20:45,120 --> 00:20:47,960 No warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of 324 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,320 God. OK, strong words to be sure, but 325 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:55,400 not a formal anathema. Article 37. 326 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,960 The Bishop of Rome hath no jurisdiction in this realm of 327 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,400 England. A firm word to be sure, but not 328 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,160 a formal anathema. It's Pope, a Bishop of Rome. 329 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:10,600 Yes, do your thing in Rome, but we are faithfully preaching the 330 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,720 Apostolic Gospel here in Canterbury. 331 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,480 We can do this as the ecumenical Body of Christ. 332 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,080 Now you get so Anglicans are kind of in this in between 333 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,800 space, preserving a lot of Roman Catholicism. 334 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,960 I think what that which faithfully demonstrates the 335 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,960 Gospel, but but still preaching the reformed understanding of 336 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:32,320 the gospel. When you get to the Prezis, 337 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,880 they're a little bit harder hitting, harder punching. 338 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,640 So Westminster Confession of faith, see what they say about 339 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,960 Rome. The purest churches under heaven 340 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,960 are subject both to mixture and error. 341 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,360 So they introduced this category even before they say their 342 00:21:48,360 --> 00:21:50,440 strongest indictment against the Roman church. 343 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,240 They introduced this category that a true church can be mixed 344 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:02,320 with, can be mixed with error. So they're introducing the 345 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,880 category that even the Roman Church that they would say the 346 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:10,480 head of which is the Antichrist, even the Roman Church can be a 347 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:14,560 true church mixed with error. That's why they said there is no 348 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,800 other head of the church but the Lord Jesus Christ, nor can the 349 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,360 Pope of Rome in any sense be head thereof. 350 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,000 But is that Antichrist who sets himself out in the House of God 351 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,960 one of the strongest Protestant statements against Roman 352 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,920 Catholicism? As a sidebar here, this may have 353 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:34,800 been legitimate in that time, but I would argue against 354 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,800 against using that in any way in the present day. 355 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,840 I think we Protestants and Catholics have made a lot of 356 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,720 progress in the past 500 years and so this is actually one of 357 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,240 the reasons why I'm not Presbyterian. 358 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,200 Now let's see how the favorite was returned. 359 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,200 Actually, this was before contacted Domino Pope Eugene the 360 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,840 4th 1442 quote. The Roman Catholic Church 361 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,280 professes and preaches that all those who outside the Catholic 362 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,120 Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and 363 00:23:06,120 --> 00:23:09,480 schismatics, cannot share an eternal life and will go into 364 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,960 the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his 365 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,200 angels, unless they are joined to the Catholic Church before 366 00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:18,720 the end of their lives. You can find similar language in 367 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,080 Martin Luther's writings, but Luther acknowledged that he was 368 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:24,200 not writing on behalf of the entire church. 369 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:31,680 This is a papal encyclical which by the 1870 Pastor Eternis is 370 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,640 technically infallible. Next, the Council of Trench, 371 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:40,880 another historic document or council for the Roman Catholic 372 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,320 Church that has defined its doctrine. 373 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,560 And henceforth, if anyone saith that justifying faith is nothing 374 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,800 else but confidence in the Divine Mercy which remits sins 375 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,160 for Christ's sake, or that this confidence alone is that whereby 376 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,840 we are justified, let him be anathema. 377 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,560 Now that anathema, so a Roman Catholic apologist would say 378 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,080 anathema is not the same as condemnation to eternal fire. 379 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:08,800 It is excommunication from the one true Church. 380 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:14,160 So that caveat albeit considered, there is still 381 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,400 stronger words towards the D churching of those who hold 382 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,800 Protestant beliefs. Finally, Pope Pius the 12th 383 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:30,120 right before Vatican 2 says it is forbidden to any man to 384 00:24:30,120 --> 00:24:33,080 change this, namely our declaration. 385 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,520 This is specifically dealing with the bodily assumption of 386 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,560 Mary. So this is a particular doctrine 387 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,600 in Roman Catholic dogma. It is forbidden to any man to 388 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,400 change this our declaration, pronouncement, and definition, 389 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,160 or by a rash attempt to oppose and counter it. 390 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,520 If any man should presume to make such an attempt to have a 391 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,120 different doctrine than the bodily assumption of Mary, let 392 00:24:56,120 --> 00:25:00,240 him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the 393 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,120 Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul. Now again, I am not invalidating 394 00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:07,960 Roman Christianity. I'm merely trying to set the 395 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,840 terms of what's already been written in the discussion 396 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:15,360 between Roman Catholics and Protestants and try to show how 397 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:22,440 really, up until Vatican 2, the the the Roman Catholic instinct 398 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:27,080 and the the the Roman Catholic Church polity was not towards a 399 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,760 generosity of ecumenism. Contrast that with what we have 400 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,320 in our next slide in our gestures toward echumenism. 401 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,280 Look at what the 39 articles say in Article 19. 402 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,080 The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men 403 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,840 in which the pure Word of God is preached and the sacraments be 404 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:54,160 duly ministered according to Christ's ordinance and all those 405 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,800 things that of necessity are requisite to the same. 406 00:25:57,120 --> 00:26:00,520 That's the that's the Protestant grammar for the church. 407 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,520 You can have a church wherever you have the gospel faithfully 408 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,920 preached and where the sacraments are faithfully 409 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,800 administered. So in theory, you can have a 410 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,240 church among the Roman Catholic communion. 411 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,280 Look what Martin Luther says. There is much that is Christian 412 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,640 and good under the papacy. In the papal church. 413 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:21,440 There are the true holy sacraments, true baptism, the 414 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,400 true sacrament of the altar, the true keys to the forgiveness of 415 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:31,600 sins, or Calvin's correspondence with Cardinal Sadaletto in 1539. 416 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,400 But what arrogance, you will say, to boast that the Church is 417 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,320 with you alone, and to to deny it to all the world Besides, 418 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,000 that's the point I'm trying to make today. 419 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,040 But then look at what he concedes. 420 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,680 I conceded along happily along with Kelvin. 421 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080 We indeed so doletto deny. Not those. 422 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,880 Not that those over which you preside are churches of Christ. 423 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,440 So it seems that the Protestant theology of what is the Church 424 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,640 actually invites towards a greater ecumenism, regardless of 425 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:08,520 who the Apostolic figure is that established the Church where you 426 00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:14,840 find it. So now I think it's my opinion 427 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:19,640 that the the Protestant moved towards that invisible unity of 428 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,200 the church was actually a good thing for the Roman Catholic 429 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,640 Church to express a more faithful ecclesiology. 430 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,400 Because look at what the look at the the the developments in 431 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,160 Roman Catholic doctrine that we get in Lumen Gentium and 432 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:40,280 Unitatis Reditegratio, namely the light to the Gentiles and 433 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:44,400 the reintegrated unity, light to the nations and reintrocuted 434 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,520 unity. These papal encyclicals that 435 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,240 came out of the Vatican 2 quote. The Church knows that she has 436 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,400 joined in many ways to the baptized, who are honored by the 437 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,120 name of Christian but have not preserved unity or communion 438 00:27:57,120 --> 00:28:00,920 under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and 439 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,800 have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although 440 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,880 imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. 441 00:28:08,120 --> 00:28:11,320 This is a beautiful development in Roman Catholic theology where 442 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,840 we contrast it with 15th century Council of Trent. 443 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,800 I think this is an example of how Protestants and Catholics 444 00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,360 can help each other towards a better ecumenism, a better 445 00:28:22,360 --> 00:28:25,280 theology of a church, and what I'll show at my Third Point, a 446 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,080 better preaching of the gospel. This this this ties up our first 447 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:37,320 discussion on on the historic ecumenism being robustly 448 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:41,760 portrayed by Protestantism. The second heading now towards a 449 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:50,720 prophetic ecclesiology, namely does the head of the Church the 450 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:54,240 human representative of the Church? 451 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,720 Is there a function within the Church to call him to account 452 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:07,800 when he falls into apostasy? Let's see if the pre Vatican 2 453 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:14,040 Roman Catholic theology gives any avenues towards that kind of 454 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,440 semper reframanda. This is again Pastor Eternis 455 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,160 1870 from Vatican One. Therefore, faithfully adhering 456 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,200 to the tradition received from the beginning of the Christian 457 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,680 faith for the glory of God our Savior, the exaltation of the 458 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,200 Catholic religion and the salvation of Christian people. 459 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,560 The Sacred Council approving we teach and define that it is a 460 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,160 divinely revealed dogma that the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex 461 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,680 cathedra, that is, when in discharge of the office of 462 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,400 pastor and teacher of all Christians, by a virtue of his 463 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,240 supreme Apostolic authority, he defines A doctrine regarding 464 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,880 faith or morals to be held by the universal Church by the 465 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,080 divine assistance promised to him. 466 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,640 And Blessed Peter is possessed of that infallibility with which 467 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,560 the Divine Redeemer willed that his Church should be endowed for 468 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,920 defining doctrine regarding faith or morals, and that 469 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,560 therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are 470 00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,960 irreformable of themselves and not from the consent of the 471 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,960 Church. There is very little wiggle room 472 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:23,600 in here for a prophetic voice to come in and be able to speak a 473 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,680 message of repentance to the highest level of church 474 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,440 leadership. Quite frankly, I think that 475 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,920 poses a problem. Let's go to the next slide. 476 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:38,040 Let's see the biblical theology of prophetic history. 477 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,320 Think of Elijah, Jeremiah, and the prophets. 478 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:46,440 They opposed the kings who were in the line of David, to whom 479 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:51,280 God said, a your seed will remain on this throne in 480 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,120 perpetuity. So the line of David could say, 481 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,120 hey, look, I have been instituted. 482 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,760 There is Davidic succession. Who are you to oppose me? 483 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,440 Or how about the ironic priesthood in Jeremiah's day? 484 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,760 They could say, well look, I can trace my father's father's, 485 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,000 father's father's father's, father's father's father's with 486 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,640 Aaron, the first Levitical priest. 487 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,560 Jeremiah opposed that priesthood with the message of Yahweh. 488 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:23,280 Calvin, in his introduction to the Institute's in the letter to 489 00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:30,760 the local monarch, he he appeals to this prophetic trend, this 490 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,720 prophetic theme running through the Old Testament, saying that 491 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,480 the Israelite church went into hiding in the days of Elijah, 492 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,200 but it was the true church. Because quote the Church may 493 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,000 exist without any apparent form, and moreover, that the form is 494 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,240 not ascertained by that external splendor which some foolishly 495 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,800 admire, but by a very different mark, namely, by the pure 496 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:57,960 preaching of the Word of God and the due administration, the 497 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,360 sacraments. Calvin appeals to Elijah being 498 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,520 fed by the Ravens and being given drink by from the brook as 499 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,200 and being told by God that there are 7000 who have not bowed 500 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:17,080 their knee to Baal to create his to create a biblical theology of 501 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:22,120 the Church when it has to be an exile outside of Jerusalem or 502 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:26,080 Rome or whatever Mother City was where the Church came from. 503 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:32,280 This Reformed ecclesiology gives us the agency to speak the 504 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,840 prophetic word of God to whoever is on the seat seat of ecclesial 505 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,880 power. Calvin also appeals to Jeremiah, 506 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,040 who opposed the Davidic kingship and the ironic priesthood when 507 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:49,240 they audaciously claimed that the law would not perish from 508 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,160 the priest. Priestly succession needs 509 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,760 prophetic critique in every age of the church. 510 00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,760 Let's see what happens in the New Testament. 511 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,840 Jesus and John the Baptist do exactly the same prophetic 512 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,880 critique. John the Baptist, born in a 513 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,240 Levitical family, could have certainly been a priest in a 514 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,160 kind of way. He became a priest, baptizing 515 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,160 and offering and forgiveness of sins. 516 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,480 Right outside, right by the Dead Sea, right right at the Jordan 517 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,120 River, he was starting a counter priesthood that called out the 518 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,920 apostasy of the Levitical priesthood. 519 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,960 Caiaphas was a great, great, great, great, great, great 520 00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:34,040 grandson of Levi, great, great, great, great grandson of Aaron. 521 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,120 And so Jesus and John the Baptist demonstrate this 522 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,880 prophetic ecclesiology that calls to repentance even the 523 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:52,640 head of the temple complex. Now, does this extend to the New 524 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,720 Testament era with Christ on the throne? 525 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,440 Do we not have a new era where there's no longer needed a 526 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,960 prophetic critique of the one to whom Jesus gives authority? 527 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:11,000 Now I'd like to argue, let's go to the third bullet point. 528 00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,440 Here Paul introduces the possibility that apostasy can 529 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,840 enter right into the heart of the church. 530 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:23,239 So in the Antichrist, the man of lawlessness takes his seat in 531 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,639 the temple of God. Calling the church the temple is 532 00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:32,400 directly drawing a line from Old Testament ecclesiology and the 533 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:37,639 grammar therein to New Testament ecclesiology and the prophetic 534 00:34:37,639 --> 00:34:41,360 critique we need against leaders who might even sit in the center 535 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,560 of the temple of God proclaiming a truth that is contrary to the 536 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:49,080 gospel. Now we see an example of this, 537 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:53,000 not in a nefarious way, but in in simple human error. 538 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:58,160 We see this prophetic critique bearing itself out in the way 539 00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:02,920 Paul opposes Peter. Now look at the name he uses for 540 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:05,080 Peter. Not when Peter came to Antioch. 541 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,400 Let me make sure I get this right. 542 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,760 When Cephas comes to Antioch, it might be when Peter came to 543 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,160 Antioch. But in that in that passage, Oh 544 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:16,440 my goodness, I left home without my Greek New Testament. 545 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:22,120 That's the world coming to OK Cephas is the rock that Jesus 546 00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:26,520 says to whom Jesus gives the declaration about the keys of 547 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,440 the Kingdom. But even this rock is opposed 548 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,360 quote to his face when he stands condemned. 549 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,960 Paul's own words for compromising the gospel by his 550 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,520 hypocrisy, saying one thing in a certain setting and going 551 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,280 against that by not eating with Gentiles in another setting. 552 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,760 It's interesting Jerome and Augustin find different 553 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,640 strategies for understanding this tension even within the New 554 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,240 Testament. Witness Jerome says, well, 555 00:35:53,240 --> 00:35:55,800 actually Paul and Peter were deliberately staging this 556 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,320 disagreement, and so they were staging it so that people can 557 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,720 have a greater truth even through their pretend 558 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,640 disagreement. Augustin on the other hand, and 559 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:09,080 I side with Augustin on this one, believed that Peter was 560 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,200 genuinely in the wrong and Paul corrected him. 561 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,520 And so the history of, of interpretation of these passages 562 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,840 shows how these apostles after Jesus rose and ascended to the 563 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:26,080 right hand of the Father. They had the capacity of writing 564 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:29,080 authoritatively, inspired by the Spirit, and these are the texts 565 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,720 and Scripture that are handed down to us. 566 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,240 But they also had the capacity for error. 567 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,600 And so there was a need for a prophetic critique, even among 568 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,120 the apostles themselves. Let's go to the next slide and 569 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,360 see how this prophetic ecclesiology emerges. 570 00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:47,120 Remember the tension between Ephesus and Rome? 571 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,080 OK, that continued well into the 2nd century. 572 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:57,480 John's Gospel places Jesus's death on Nissan 14, the day 573 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,960 before Passover. Mark's Gospel places Jesus's 574 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,160 death on Nissan 15. The day of Passover. 575 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,640 Now critical scholars will say, ha, error in the Gospels. 576 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,560 You can't trust the whole thing. Actually, if you dive a little 577 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,760 bit deeper, you see that there was a Galilean Pharisaical 578 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,440 numbering of the moon when it when it first shone and when was 579 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,640 the first day of the month. And so by that Galilean 580 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,640 tradition, Jesus died on Nissan 15. 581 00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,960 But in the Jerusalemite priesthood reckoning of time, 582 00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:36,600 Nissan 15 started a day later. And so Jesus was crucified 583 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:40,200 according to the priestly reckoning on Nissan 14. 584 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,520 Same day, different reckonings, no contradiction. 585 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,520 Actually a more robust depiction of what Jesus accomplished, 586 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,000 being the Paschal lamb by being sacrificed on the day before the 587 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,680 Passover and being the one who brings us out of out of Egypt 588 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,840 through Exodus into the new creation, being crucified on 589 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,720 Nissan 15. This complementary and diverse 590 00:38:05,720 --> 00:38:10,800 depiction of the cross of Christ had implications for how Easter 591 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:14,160 was celebrated in the East in Asia Minor. 592 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,880 John's disciples in Ephesus took up the practice of remembering 593 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,600 Jesus death on Nissan 14. But those from a Roman 594 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,800 Providence who probably had Mark's gospel as the Gospel they 595 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:31,280 read the most they took to celebrating Jesus death, 596 00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,280 remembering his death on the Friday before Easter. 597 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:41,080 And this posed no small conflict during the days of John's own 598 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:43,040 student Polycarp, who lived a long time. 599 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,520 So he learned from John himself and then also taught well into 600 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,120 the mid 2nd century. He became the Bishop of Smyrna. 601 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:52,600 We mentioned him a few minutes ago. 602 00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,920 He and Anaikatis, the Bishop of Rome at that time, had a 603 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:02,680 disagreement about when and how to celebrate Easter, based on 604 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,480 when Jesus was said to have been crucified. 605 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:11,040 They agreed to disagree on the date of Easter. 606 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,520 And look at these words, the very phrasing that Eusebius 607 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,040 preserves. Anikatas yielded to Polycarp, 608 00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:25,920 obviously out of respect. So things were all, you know, 609 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,040 cleared up after then, right? Well, no. 610 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,880 Go to the next slide. Victor became Bishop of Rome 611 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,880 around 180 AD. He's a little bit more power 612 00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,760 hungry of a Roman Bishop. He says, no, I don't like this. 613 00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:44,840 They're not doing they think they're their own wing of the 614 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,120 church and they can practice Easter whenever they want to 615 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,280 know we're going to we're going to make only one practice of 616 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:57,520 when to celebrate Easter. So he he pressured them to 617 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,800 conform. Polycrates, Bishop of Ephesus. 618 00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,960 Who traced his Apostolic lineage all the way back to John. 619 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,400 He writes a letter to Victor stating that he and all the 620 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,560 churches of Asia following John will continue to commemorate 621 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,280 Jesus's death. On this on 14. 622 00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:19,080 Not afraid of threats, for it is better to obey God than man. 623 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,000 It's according from Acts when Peter and Paul, in this case it 624 00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,840 was Peter. Acts chapter 5 is opposing the 625 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,080 Jerusalem priesthood, saying it's better to oppose God. 626 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,120 Sorry, it's better to obey. Amen. 627 00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:40,160 It's better to obey God. It is better to obey God than 628 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,760 man. How does Pope Victor respond? 629 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,000 He attempts to excommunicate Polycrates and all the churches 630 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,720 of Asia Minor. But Irenaeus, whose name means 631 00:40:51,720 --> 00:40:56,360 peacemaker, a native of Smyrna, student of Polycarp, A 632 00:40:56,360 --> 00:41:00,160 missionary Bishop all the way in Lyon, modern day France, he led 633 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:05,200 a coalition of bishops to appeal to victor, to quote, rebuke him 634 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,320 sharply. By confronting the Bishop of 635 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:13,160 Rome and proving his error, Ironyus delayed the East West 636 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:17,840 schism by nearly 900 years. It was this prophetic 637 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,040 ecclesiology that kept the Church together. 638 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:25,040 And oh if it could have persisted in 1066 or 1054 when 639 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,800 the great Schism happened between East and West. 640 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,840 Let's continue. OK, it continues. 641 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,000 The plot thickens. We have a figure. 642 00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:42,560 So Pope Liberius and Pope Felix the Second, who's actually in 643 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,680 Roman Catholic understanding is considered an anti Pope. 644 00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,560 So Fast forward 200 years, we're in 355 AD. 645 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,800 After the Council of Nicaea, the Aryan sympathetic Emperor 646 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,720 Constantius the Second pressures Liberius, the true Bishop of 647 00:41:57,720 --> 00:42:02,880 Rome, to issue a condemnation against our friend Athanasius, 648 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,320 the champion of Nicene Orthodoxy. 649 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,000 Liberius as a faithful Bishop who could trace his lineage back 650 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:15,320 to Peter. He refused, so Constantius 651 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:17,760 banished Liberius. Get out of here, you're no 652 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,720 longer in Rome, and installed Felix the Second as Pope. 653 00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:26,480 Two years later, Liberius, under threat of death, agreed to sign 654 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:30,240 the condemnation against Athanasius, who had just begun 655 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:34,120 his third exile. This LED This was Liberius's 656 00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:38,680 power play to get reinstalled back as the Bishop of Rome. 657 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:41,840 He did it for what might say good motives because he wanted 658 00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:46,680 to exert good Nicene orthodoxy, but he did so by condemning 659 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,600 Athanasius. After Constantius's The Second 660 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,200 Death the Second's death, Liberius repented and rescinded 661 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:57,280 his condemnation against Athanasius. 662 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,920 So how does the Roman Catholic Church understand this 663 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:04,880 difficulty of the Bishop of Rome being exiled no longer in Rome 664 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,080 and another Pope coming in? Who's the true Pope? 665 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,680 They have a category known as the antipope for any figures 666 00:43:11,680 --> 00:43:15,120 like Felix the Second. There are several antipops 667 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:16,640 throughout Roman Catholic history. 668 00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:21,240 Now I think that is a legitimate interpret way to interpret the 669 00:43:21,240 --> 00:43:25,640 history of these bishops of Rome, but it's basically 670 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,520 Protestant ecclesiology. Think about it. 671 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,840 The Bishop of Rome, the true heir of the Gospel, gets exiled 672 00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,640 out of Rome, and so the Church goes with him out of Rome, and 673 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,320 then the church comes back and confronts Rome with the true 674 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,520 Gospel. That's just the Protestant 675 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,080 Church movement in an ancient form. 676 00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,280 Let's go to the next slide and see another example of this. 677 00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,560 Fast forward by another three or so centuries. 678 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:57,160 In the 7th century, the heresy of Monothelatism sprang up, 679 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:01,120 teaching that the Incarnate Son only had one will, rather than a 680 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:03,920 human will hypothetically united with a divine will. 681 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,040 So in 635, Pope Anorius the First came dangerously close to 682 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,720 endorsing Monothelatism by offering concessions to the 683 00:44:12,720 --> 00:44:15,920 arguments of Sergius, the first Patriarch of Constantinople. 684 00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:22,760 Now the he didn't technically endorse Monothelitism, but 685 00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:27,120 perhaps out of generosity he he offered concessions to those who 686 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:32,840 were full on Monothelites. If so, remember from the Council 687 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,360 of Chalcedon, 451 AD, It's utterly important that Christ 688 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,760 has a divine nature and a human nature eternally without, 689 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:44,240 without without confusion, united in these two natures, 690 00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,840 which means his divine nature has a divine will. 691 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,440 His human nature has a human will. 692 00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:54,200 The two of those are united without, without with 693 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:55,720 distinction. But without? 694 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:58,920 Without. Blending they're united 695 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:03,840 eternally in his incarnation, so that way Christ can fully assume 696 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:07,440 human nature and fully redeem it into the Godhead. 697 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,280 It's really important that Christ in his Incarnate self has 698 00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:16,000 two natures and two wills. So monotheletism actually is a 699 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:18,840 really important theological. Debate. 700 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:23,280 The 6th Ecumenical Council, Third Council of Constantinople 701 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:29,080 formally and mathematizes Pope Honorius the First quote, who 702 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,520 did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the 703 00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:36,240 teaching of Apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery 704 00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:39,720 permitted its purity to be polluted. 705 00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,520 Honorius the First is not considered an antipope. 706 00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:49,160 He's a Pope in the line of the faithful who received the Gospel 707 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,160 from Peter. And yet he is. 708 00:45:52,880 --> 00:45:56,240 Anathematized here. How do we handle that? 709 00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:01,000 It seems that it's the prophetic ecclesiology that can even say 710 00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:07,000 when a Pope missed that can even call the Bishop of Rome to 711 00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:12,160 account when he does not sanctify the Apostolic Church 712 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,080 with the teachings. Of Apostolic tradition. 713 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,400 All right, let's go to the next slide. 714 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,000 OK. So so far we've had the 715 00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:26,160 historic, historic ecumenism and we've had the. 716 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:30,640 Prophetic ecclesiology. Now third and finally, Gospel 717 00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,480 clarity. I think this is actually the 718 00:46:33,480 --> 00:46:38,640 strongest point that Protestants can make, our crystal clear 719 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,600 proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ. 720 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:45,240 Paul says it. I want you to I want to remind 721 00:46:45,240 --> 00:46:49,320 you, brothers, of the gospel which I gospelized to you, which 722 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,880 you have received, and upon which you have taken your stand. 723 00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:58,200 Through this gospel. You are saved if you hold firmly 724 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:02,640 to the word which I gospelized to you, otherwise you have 725 00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:09,720 believed in vain. Let's see here then he says, For 726 00:47:09,720 --> 00:47:14,400 I pass down to you that sacred Apostolic tradition passing down 727 00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:19,280 as of first importance, what's the main thing, the most 728 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:21,200 important thing? If you forget everything else 729 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,240 that you hear in church, what's the most important thing to 730 00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:27,680 remember? That the Messiah died for our 731 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,800 sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried 732 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:35,800 and that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the 733 00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,720 Scriptures. He's the Messiah. 734 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,440 He died for our sins. He was buried and raised on the 735 00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:43,920 third day in accordance with the Scriptures. 736 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,080 This fourfold Apostolic proclamation, the Greek word for 737 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:54,840 it is karigma, is the gospel that unites Paul with Peter with 738 00:47:55,040 --> 00:48:00,480 John with James with Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. 739 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,840 This Apostolic gospel, you see it in First Corinthians 15, Acts 740 00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,360 chapter 10 when Peter's preaching to Cornelius, 741 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:11,040 Ephesians chapter 1 when Paul is writing the Super run on 742 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,480 sentence in Greek. This Apostolic gospel is what 743 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,200 unites the entire New Testament Canon. 744 00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:22,400 It is of first importance. Scholar recently has made 745 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,520 written this incredible book that shows how Matthew, Mark, 746 00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:27,480 Luke and John as the four gospels. 747 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:31,440 Apostolic gospels are differentiated from the 80 other 748 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,360 apocryphal gospels because none of those eighty other gospels 749 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,920 preach this Apostolic charisma. Only Matthew, Mark, Luke and 750 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,400 John do. And so this is of first 751 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,760 importance. Now let's see how this gospel 752 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,440 clarity emerges in the divergent traditions. 753 00:48:48,440 --> 00:48:50,040 Of Christianity. Let's do the next slide. 754 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:56,680 You see, every church tradition engages in the development of 755 00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,400 doctrine. I kind of. 756 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,720 That's why I mentioned some of the the the frequently mentioned 757 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:06,400 later. Roman Catholic dogmas that 758 00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,920 Protestant apologists like to point out 1870 is a relatively 759 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:16,800 late dogma, and so the the Petrine supremacy and papal 760 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,040 infallibility. Is a later thing 1870. 761 00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:24,560 Now it's not just Roman Catholics who have development 762 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:26,840 of doctrine, Protestants too as well. 763 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,880 And so that same criticism might be levelled against some of our 764 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,840 distinct Roman Protestant doctrines. 765 00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:39,760 And even the consensual Nicene Constantinopolitan and 766 00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:45,400 Calcedonian traditions are similarly developments of the of 767 00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,080 doctrine. Where do you see the word Co 768 00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,200 substantial in the New Testament? 769 00:49:50,240 --> 00:49:51,960 You don't find it. Where do you see the word 770 00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:54,400 Trinity in the New Testament? You don't find it. 771 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,240 Where do you find the word hypostatic union? 772 00:49:57,240 --> 00:49:58,720 You don't find it in the New Testament. 773 00:49:58,720 --> 00:50:03,160 But any of us who recite the Nicene Creed every Sunday would 774 00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,520 say these are genuinely in the text of Scripture. 775 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,920 It just took time to draw it out and for the seed to bear fruit 776 00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,040 and the tree to grow. And so we have Nicene 777 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:18,680 Constantinopolitan Christianity. Which brings me to my question 778 00:50:18,680 --> 00:50:22,600 regarding Gospel clarity. Which post Nicene traditions 779 00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:27,480 show greater Gospel clarity in their further development of 780 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:29,520 doctrine? Let's see how the Orthodox, 781 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:33,440 Roman Catholic and Protestant traditions develop their 782 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,960 doctrines. Purgatory indulgences. 783 00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:40,440 Never a dogma, but very commonly practiced before Trent, 784 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,600 Immaculate Conception of Mary, Petra and supremacy, Papal 785 00:50:44,600 --> 00:50:47,280 infallibility, bodily assumption of Mary. 786 00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:57,320 A good OP Dominican conservative Catholic theologian could make a 787 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:03,480 case that you see the Gospel somehow preserved, protected, or 788 00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:06,160 embodied in these Roman Catholic dogmas. 789 00:51:06,680 --> 00:51:11,400 OK, but with what clarity? Compare that to the 790 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,360 substitutionary atonement of Christ, the imputation of the 791 00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:19,360 resurrected Christ's righteousness on us sinners, the 792 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:24,840 sole intercession of the ascended Christ on our behalf. 793 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,160 These doctrines go right to the heart of the gospel so that you 794 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:34,640 can know that Christ died. Christ died for your sins 795 00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,640 according to the scriptures, and through him you can have the 796 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,120 confidence to face God on judgment day. 797 00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,640 Not through the mediation of Saints and angels or the Blessed 798 00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:51,440 Virgin Mary herself. It is through the sole work of 799 00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,440 Christ. I don't have time to discuss to 800 00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,600 discuss Greek Orthodox dogma. It's just interesting as a 801 00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:02,960 parallel to notice how the dogma that develops in a Greek 802 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:07,160 Orthodox context has other implications regarding the 803 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:09,960 Gospel and regarding church practice. 804 00:52:10,240 --> 00:52:12,800 For this, for the purposes today, I'm just comparing and 805 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,760 contrasting Protestant development of doctrine versus 806 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:17,360 Roman Catholic development of doctrine. 807 00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:21,560 Let's continue. This comes to bear on our 808 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,840 liturgy, the implicit curriculum, the thing that you 809 00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:27,680 say every single Sunday that shapes who you are. 810 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:30,640 Look at the difference between our Eucharistic prayers. 811 00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:33,840 Now, I'm borrowing here from the Anglican standard text. 812 00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:39,400 We use the revised ancient version, revised ancient text 813 00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:42,600 for our Eucharistic liturgy, but the Anglican standard text is 814 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,240 also there in our Book of Common Prayer. 815 00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,640 We earnestly desire your fatherly goodness mercifully to 816 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,480 accept this, our sacrifice of praise and Thanksgiving, asking 817 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,400 you to grant that by the merits and death of your Son Jesus 818 00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,080 Christ, and through faith in His blood, we and your whole church 819 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:05,000 may obtain forgiveness of our sins and all of the benefits of 820 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,320 His Passion. And although we are unworthy 821 00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:13,120 because of our many sins, to offer you any sacrifice, yet we 822 00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:17,440 ask you to accept this duty and service we owe, not weighing our 823 00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:22,040 merits, but pardoning offenses through Jesus Christ our Lord, 824 00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,720 and of course, our prayer of humble access. 825 00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:26,480 We do not presume to come to this Your table, O merciful 826 00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:29,080 Lord, trusting in our own righteousness, but in your 827 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:33,520 abundant and great mercies. Let's contrast that with the 828 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,240 Roman Catholic Eucharistic Prayer in communion with those 829 00:53:37,240 --> 00:53:40,400 whose memory we venerate, especially the glorious ever 830 00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,680 Virgin Mary, Mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ, and 831 00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:46,440 Blessed Joseph her Spouse and all your Saints. 832 00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,800 We ask that through their merits and prayers in all things we may 833 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,760 be defended by your protecting help through Jesus Christ our 834 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:56,840 Lord. Amen. 835 00:53:57,440 --> 00:53:59,920 Have mercy on us all. We pray that with the Blessed 836 00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:03,120 Virgin Mary, Mother of God, with Blessed Joseph her Spouse, with 837 00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,440 the Blessed Apostles and all the Saints who have pleased you 838 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:11,120 throughout the ages, we may merit to be coheirs to eternal 839 00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:15,480 life and may praise and glorify you through your Son Jesus 840 00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:20,560 Christ. OK, again, if we had AOP, 841 00:54:20,720 --> 00:54:26,480 Dominican conservative Catholic theologian would probably be 842 00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:30,480 able to make a really strong case for how merit here does not 843 00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:34,560 equal workspace righteousness, how merit here is actually a 844 00:54:34,560 --> 00:54:37,320 transformation of the soul into the likeness of God, etcetera, 845 00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,480 etcetera, etcetera. But what is more abundantly 846 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,520 clear, pointing to the grace of Jesus Christ for wretched 847 00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:49,560 sinners like you and me. This is the glory of our 848 00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:52,640 Protestant tradition, that it goes back to the Apostolic 849 00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,240 Gospel. It proclaims it with utmost 850 00:54:55,240 --> 00:54:59,520 clarity and it preserves it from generation to generation. 851 00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,120 I don't have time to share about my own family's experience, but. 852 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:08,760 Suffice it to say. That coming from a N northern 853 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:14,800 Mexican Roman Catholic quasi folk religious context, being 854 00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:19,040 confronted by Baptist missionaries 120 years ago with 855 00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,200 this gospel of grace was transformative to my whole 856 00:55:22,200 --> 00:55:25,360 family and I'm still experiencing its effects today. 857 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,600 And so I offer to you this Gospel clarity in our Protestant 858 00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,000 tradition, together with our prophetic ecclesiology and our 859 00:55:33,000 --> 00:55:37,280 historic acumenism, as hopefully a compelling case to remain. 860 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,720 Protestant, thank you. Oh. 861 00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:48,280 Sorry. OK, lest I have the last word, 862 00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:52,040 let me give John Kelvin, my homeboy, the last word he says. 863 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,960 When we see that the whole sum of our salvation and every 864 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,920 single part of it are comprehended in Christ, we must 865 00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,120 be aware of deriving even the minutest portion of it from any 866 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:03,560 other quarter. If we seek salvation, we are 867 00:56:03,560 --> 00:56:05,720 taught by the very name of Jesus. 868 00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:08,880 The Lord saves that He possesses it. 869 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:12,680 If we seek any other gifts of the Spirit, we shall find them 870 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,440 in His unction. Strengthen His government, 871 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,200 purity in His conception, indulgence in His nativity, in 872 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,520 which He was made like us in all respects, in order that we might 873 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:25,120 learn that He might learn to sympathize with us. 874 00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:28,040 If we seek redemption, we shall find it in His passion, 875 00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,240 acquittal in His condemnation, remission of the curse in His 876 00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,080 cross, satisfaction in His sacrifice, purification in His 877 00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:36,640 blood. Keep going. 878 00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:39,800 Reconciliation in his descent to hell. 879 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,160 Mortification of the flesh and His sepulchre. 880 00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:44,280 Newness of life in his resurrection. 881 00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,280 Immortality also in his resurrection. 882 00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:50,120 The inheritance of a celestial Kingdom in his entrance into 883 00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:51,920 Heaven. Protection, security, and the 884 00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:54,320 abundant supply of all blessings in His Kingdom. 885 00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:58,680 Secure anticipation of judgement in the power of judging 886 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,440 committed to Him. That is Christ. 887 00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,680 Finally, since in Him all kinds of blessings are treasured up, 888 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:09,360 let us draw a full supply from Him and from none other quarter. 889 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:13,120 Those who, not satisfied with Him alone, entertain various 890 00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,120 hopes from others, though they may continue to look to Him, 891 00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,800 chiefly deviate from the right path, because some portion of 892 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,440 their thought takes a different direction. 893 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:30,200 Thank you very much. All right. 894 00:57:30,200 --> 00:57:33,640 We have some time for Q&A. Go ahead in the front. 895 00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:44,800 So 1 of my largest largest blockades for is. 896 00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:46,760 Sorry for. Me being critical. 897 00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:50,800 Of yeah, go ahead. Why? 898 00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:56,520 Why would I want to associate with someone who removed? 899 00:57:56,680 --> 00:57:58,440 Seven books from the Canon. Yes, Canon question. 900 00:57:58,440 --> 00:58:03,840 So our so you can. So I commend to you 2 lectures 901 00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:06,200 of the past two weeks. We did the Old Testament Canon 902 00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:10,200 and the New Testament Canon. Short summary of both of those 903 00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:14,320 lectures. When you see the Canon of the 904 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:18,440 Hebrew Bible, when you see the Canon of Athanasius, so of 905 00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:27,160 origin of Athanasius, of Jerome, of John of Damascus, you see 906 00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,640 common overlap that the core of each of those like the the and 907 00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,040 the list doesn't include the Apocrypha. 908 00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:43,960 There was a, there was this very thoroughgoing patristic teaching 909 00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,320 that there are 22 letters of the Hebrew Bible and therefore only 910 00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:51,720 22 books of the Old Testament. And that that is essential. 911 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:58,280 That is our Protestant Canon. Those 22 books include the the 912 00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,400 12 books of the minor prophets as one book, Lamentations 913 00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,640 together with Jeremiah, Ezra and Nehemiah together. 914 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:11,040 But it's 22 summarizing the entire language of God for the 915 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,320 Old Testament, just as there are 22 letters in the Hebrew 916 00:59:13,320 --> 00:59:15,920 alphabet. Jerome, John Damascus, 917 00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:21,520 Athanasius origin, Josephus the the the Jewish historian all 918 00:59:21,520 --> 00:59:26,560 appeal to that argument for the closeness of the Old Testament 919 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:31,360 Canon at 22 books. It was later Christians who well 920 00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,920 Christians along the same time as Athanasius, Jerome and 921 00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,040 Augustine who said we have these other books, what do we do with 922 00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,080 them? I think that the Anglican 923 00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,080 approach to it is the most faithful that that really 924 00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,160 follows the partistic tradition that says. 925 00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,560 We have 22 books of the Old Testament when they're numbered 926 00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:52,120 in that way as our authoritative scriptures, and then we have 927 00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:55,280 these seven other books that are helpful for our instruction. 928 00:59:55,560 --> 00:59:58,000 And so we commend them even for public reading. 929 00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,400 And the Anglican seminary where I teach, we read from the 930 01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,000 Apocrypha as part of our daily office. 931 01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,360 We commend them for teaching of morals and instruction, but not 932 01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:10,560 for any formulation of doctrine. And I think that just only that 933 01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,280 faithfully anchors ourselves in what Athanasius? 934 01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:16,200 Jerome, Shana. Damascus all the way back to 935 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:18,520 origin and back to the early church. 936 01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:21,520 Early centuries of the church would say that's a good question 937 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,760 though. Go ahead, Sarah. 938 01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:25,720 So. I have a question on the last. 939 01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:28,560 Part. Looking at the clarity of the 940 01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,600 gospel because when it comes to Catholicism and like praying to 941 01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:36,440 Saints and everything, a lot of the way that we Protestant see 942 01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,160 it is from Catholics to. Misunderstand. 943 01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,560 Yes, yes, yes, Doctrine. And we also. 944 01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:43,800 I also have a lot of examples of current. 945 01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:45,680 Protestants. Oh yes, they abound that. 946 01:00:45,760 --> 01:00:49,080 Then take like. Salvation by faith too far. 947 01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,200 Yep, Yep, Yep, actually there's. No conformity to the acts of 948 01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:55,920 right. And so despite the gospel 949 01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,200 clarity, like, it's still perverted. 950 01:00:58,680 --> 01:00:59,560 So Yep. Yep. 951 01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:10,170 My question is like, how would you respond to the Catholic 952 01:01:11,970 --> 01:01:15,280 doctrine? Yes, absolutely. 953 01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,160 If I had another hour, I would just enumerate all the ways that 954 01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:23,840 historic Roman Catholic theologians have challenged us 955 01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,480 Protestants in ways where we have lost the Gospel. 956 01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:34,320 And so, so I, I think the ecumenical dialogue towards 957 01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:36,880 Gospel clarity should go both ways, certainly. 958 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:47,160 And I mean, to use an extreme example for within a, I'll have 959 01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:50,040 to call it a broadly Protestant context, but look at the 960 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,680 prosperity gospel that is proliferating, especially in 961 01:01:53,680 --> 01:01:58,240 sub-Saharan Africa. They take the name of. 962 01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,920 Jesus and the power that is in it and ascribe to it a kind of 963 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,440 talismanic force that they can use to bless people for all the 964 01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:09,080 prosperity and all their own acquisition of wealth as corrupt 965 01:02:09,080 --> 01:02:10,960 pastors. It's all across the continent of 966 01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:13,160 Africa. I spent five years of my life 967 01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:19,000 teaching true doctrine and promoting the gospel because of 968 01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,840 these Protestant errors. So I think the critique should 969 01:02:22,840 --> 01:02:25,680 go both ways and each of our traditions should appreciate 970 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:29,120 where we marred the gospel and and blur its clarity. 971 01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:31,880 So I think that's a really appropriate comment. 972 01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,040 Yes, Renee, go ahead. So. 973 01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:33,840 A couple of. Things. 974 01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,280 Yes please having. Left the Catholic tradition 975 01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:37,680 relatively. Recently. 976 01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:43,560 Yeah, there is in the United States a great hostility because 977 01:02:43,920 --> 01:02:45,520 Protestants are deeply untouched to. 978 01:02:45,880 --> 01:02:48,720 Catholics in a lot of ways. The Catholic Churches are 979 01:02:48,840 --> 01:02:51,840 desecrated on a regular. Basis. 980 01:02:53,000 --> 01:02:55,400 And that's something that you understand if you're going to 981 01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,640 disagree with someone. I think if you don't really 982 01:02:57,640 --> 01:02:59,920 understand things, you will lose your integrity. 983 01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:02,080 Very, very quickly. Absolutely the concept. 984 01:03:02,360 --> 01:03:05,560 Of papal supremacy does not just come from one person's concept, 985 01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:09,200 it was actually a parallel to Isaiah 20. 2 whereby? 986 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:12,800 A king gave the keys to the Kingdom to a servant and said, 987 01:03:13,040 --> 01:03:15,840 I'm giving you the keys and my authority. 988 01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:20,480 As the king. To run this, this, this Kingdom 989 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:24,920 on my behalf. And whatever you say will be 990 01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,920 interpreted as I have said. It will have all of my 991 01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:29,920 authority. And they look at the parallel 992 01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:34,640 when Jesus said, I now named you Peter for the rock, and upon 993 01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:37,280 this rock I will give my church. And then the cakes of thou shall 994 01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,520 not prevail against it. And I am giving you the keys. 995 01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:44,960 And a Jew would have looked at those parallels and said, Oh, of 996 01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:48,720 course. And Paul went to see Peter 997 01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,840 before he began his ministries. That's actually where it comes 998 01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:54,440 from. The other things I don't agree. 999 01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,040 With, yeah, I think it's. Really important. 1000 01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:58,000 If you're going to. Disagree with? 1001 01:03:58,240 --> 01:03:58,680 People. Yeah, to. 1002 01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,400 Really, really understand. Absolutely. 1003 01:04:01,400 --> 01:04:03,560 So we. The Catholic Church doesn't look 1004 01:04:03,560 --> 01:04:08,280 at merit as we have earned it is we have been transformed by. 1005 01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:10,880 Christ. And as such will perform good 1006 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:12,680 things. Yeah, and they look at Saints 1007 01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,120 not like I need them to go to Christ. 1008 01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:19,720 Yep. But these are people who have 1009 01:04:19,720 --> 01:04:23,280 done great things and now have a relationship with Christ. 1010 01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:24,520 The wedding it came. Up. 1011 01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:25,000 Yep. Yep. 1012 01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:25,600 Mm. Hmm. 1013 01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:26,560 Absolutely. Yep. 1014 01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:27,960 And who went to Christ? Yep, said. 1015 01:04:28,120 --> 01:04:30,160 Just. That yes. 1016 01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:34,600 I I get very nervous. Mm hmm. 1017 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:37,560 In these. Situations. 1018 01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:41,600 Yep, Yep, yes, and I. Said there are and then my other 1019 01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:43,840 question is how do I respond because I still have many, many 1020 01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:45,120 friends who are. Catholic about. 1021 01:04:45,160 --> 01:04:46,440 Things that were done post Vatican. 1022 01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:47,640 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean. 1023 01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,200 Kelis is a lot older, so they did things like theology of the 1024 01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:52,320 body. It's like, OK, we're going. 1025 01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:55,320 To develop Protestant theology of the body. 1026 01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,760 And how do I respond to people who say Anglicans are just 1027 01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:01,120 taking the the keys to the Catholic bus and trying to 1028 01:05:01,120 --> 01:05:01,600 drive? It off. 1029 01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:04,840 And that's, I have, I have heard that many times when people who 1030 01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:07,880 find out when I went from being a Catholic to an Anglican, 1031 01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,120 they're copying what we did, but then just taking out what they 1032 01:05:10,120 --> 01:05:10,600 don't. Want. 1033 01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:14,520 Yeah, both have faceted question. 1034 01:05:14,520 --> 01:05:18,400 Thank you so much. Let me just rapid fire. 1035 01:05:19,600 --> 01:05:22,440 Rapid fire is the worst analogy. Basically, I want to, I want to 1036 01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,360 affirm like several things right off the bat that I think the 1037 01:05:25,360 --> 01:05:31,080 whole group here should hear if the, the concept or the, the 1038 01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:34,200 errors or the, the harm that's caused by desecrating Roman 1039 01:05:34,200 --> 01:05:36,760 Catholic churches. Absolutely we need to cut that 1040 01:05:36,760 --> 01:05:39,720 out. The misunderstanding and the 1041 01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,800 disrespect that Protestants give to Roman Catholics. 1042 01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,520 Absolutely we need to do better. That's not that's not becoming 1043 01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:48,040 of our identity as brothers and sisters in Christ. 1044 01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:56,560 The properly representing Catholic arguments for their 1045 01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:58,720 doctrines. Absolutely we need to do that. 1046 01:05:58,720 --> 01:06:05,080 So I'm glad that you bring up Isaiah 22 pointing to Hezekiah, 1047 01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,920 giving Eliakim the the his representative the keys of the 1048 01:06:08,920 --> 01:06:12,360 Kingdom. There is there are good biblical 1049 01:06:12,360 --> 01:06:14,920 theological hermeneutics that run through from the Old 1050 01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:18,320 Testament passage of the keys of the Kingdom all the way to 1051 01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:22,600 Peter. I, I would so so I appreciate 1052 01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,960 that Roman, that biblical theology hermeneutic that Roman 1053 01:06:25,960 --> 01:06:28,600 Catholics are using for pad trance supremacy. 1054 01:06:28,600 --> 01:06:35,120 I only ask that they nuance it with the other things of Peter's 1055 01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,600 career that we see in the New Testament and the whole and the 1056 01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,280 history that I've outlined of ecumenical dialogue. 1057 01:06:42,280 --> 01:06:45,920 So absolutely yes, things that I'm affirming that you've said 1058 01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:50,480 and also ways in which we can, I can hopefully make a case like I 1059 01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:53,360 did while still extending the right hand of fellowship to 1060 01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,920 Roman Catholics. Question your question about are 1061 01:06:56,920 --> 01:07:01,600 we just sort of stealing all the goods of Roman Catholicism and 1062 01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,880 running the bus off I. Of course my answer is no, we're 1063 01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:12,120 not doing that. And the reason why is I whatever 1064 01:07:12,120 --> 01:07:17,000 tradition we find truth from, that reminds us and anchors us 1065 01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:21,280 back in the Apostolic Gospel, we should thank God for those 1066 01:07:21,280 --> 01:07:24,240 fontes, for those sources wherever we find them. 1067 01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,800 And even Calvin will quote from Thomas Aquinas and Bernardo 1068 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:32,280 Clairvaux, just as he would quote from the Eastern Orthodox 1069 01:07:32,280 --> 01:07:36,000 Fathers. And yeah, even as he was 1070 01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,360 influenced by probably some rabbinic sources as well in his 1071 01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,440 day. So we need to acknowledge where 1072 01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,920 we get our theology from, not only kind of paying lip service, 1073 01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:51,400 but genuine gratitude for those sectors of the Church that with 1074 01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:54,320 with with which our polities don't have communion. 1075 01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,520 But with but to whom we are. Deeply indebted because of what 1076 01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,080 they have taught us by passing, passing down to us the Apostolic 1077 01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:04,840 faith. I think that that Oh yeah. 1078 01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:11,520 Then then regarding merits, Mary and the Saints, again, a 1079 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:16,080 conservative Catholic description of these concepts, I 1080 01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:19,120 think does get to a point of saying how they relate to the 1081 01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:25,960 Gospel. But coming from a personal 1082 01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:31,319 experience of Mexican American Roman Catholicism, I can 1083 01:08:31,319 --> 01:08:39,080 definitely, I, I can very clearly see how just as in a, in 1084 01:08:39,160 --> 01:08:42,880 a sub-saharan African context with the prosperity gospels 1085 01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:45,880 leading others astray. I have seen and have continued 1086 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:50,880 to see how reliance on other mediators, even like how your 1087 01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:53,960 typical folk Catholic Mexican is not going to know the 1088 01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,319 understanding of merit and the understanding of intercession. 1089 01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:58,279 And so they're going to them for salvation. 1090 01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:02,880 And so that's why I, I, I, I advocate the clarity that's 1091 01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:04,120 given in the Protestant tradition. 1092 01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,920 Go ahead up front, I wonder. If you could. 1093 01:09:12,439 --> 01:09:16,000 That Peter was indeed. The founder of the church in 1094 01:09:16,279 --> 01:09:20,880 Rome and that this isn't a later claim made by the leaders of 1095 01:09:21,000 --> 01:09:26,279 Rome that tried to take his authority for their own church. 1096 01:09:26,359 --> 01:09:28,560 Like why do we believe? That that Why do we believe that 1097 01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:29,800 Peter founded the church in Rome? 1098 01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:34,120 Yeah, well. Like what are what is, what is 1099 01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:36,760 the evidence? That Peter was actually. 1100 01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:39,080 Yeah. So if we just have the New 1101 01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,600 Testament, it. Someone could correct me if I'm 1102 01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:48,120 wrong, but it looks like Paul got there first in Acts 27 and 1103 01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:51,640 28. However, if we look at Irenaeus 1104 01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:57,600 in that quote that I brought up against Heresies chapter 3, 1105 01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:04,680 Section 3, he said yeah, the blessed apostles. 1106 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,240 Then, having founded and built up the church, committed into 1107 01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:12,200 the hands of Linus. The office of the Episcopate and 1108 01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:17,800 then it mentions in section book three, section one that. 1109 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:22,080 Peter and Paul were. Preaching at Rome and laying the 1110 01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:25,800 foundations of the church. So it's a Petrine and Pauline 1111 01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,560 collaboration that founds the church, which is why we have 1112 01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,680 basilica's to both in, in, in Rome, and which is why in one of 1113 01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:39,360 the Anathema's the, the, the Pope of that time said they they 1114 01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:43,160 would experience the wrath of God and Peter and Paul, they're 1115 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:51,840 appealing to Pauline and Petrine origins for, for, for the Church 1116 01:10:51,880 --> 01:10:56,160 of Rome, But then interpreting Matthew 16, specifically saying 1117 01:10:56,160 --> 01:10:59,440 Peter would be that head. I disagree with with some of 1118 01:10:59,440 --> 01:11:01,840 that exegesis, but that's at least the argument that they 1119 01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:03,160 would make. Yeah, go ahead. 1120 01:11:04,920 --> 01:11:08,440 To what extent would you say that like a rise in literacy 1121 01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:13,200 explains sort of the timing of the Protestant schism? 1122 01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:15,920 Like the Roman. Catholic Church and like 1123 01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:20,160 printing press. And like 13. 50 and that sort of 1124 01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,320 thing, the Bible like. Yeah, yeah. 1125 01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:24,960 Just that, like, you know, as with any sort of human 1126 01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:26,040 institution. Yeah. 1127 01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:32,400 A lack of kind of oversight or, you know, many, many viewers 1128 01:11:32,440 --> 01:11:35,640 sort of distraction, the ability to sort of sort truth from, you 1129 01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:41,880 know, do you do you think like literacy was part of that? 1130 01:11:43,400 --> 01:11:46,920 Well, I mean, just see how Twitter can tear a church apart. 1131 01:11:48,320 --> 01:11:51,640 I think these. Technologies are like fuel to a 1132 01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:54,000 fire. They, they, they accelerate the, 1133 01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:56,040 the, the trends that are already there. 1134 01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:01,560 They were political dynamics, there were social, there were, 1135 01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:07,560 you know, the dynamics of plague and famine and war all and and 1136 01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:09,520 in addition to that, the increased levels of technology 1137 01:12:09,520 --> 01:12:10,880 that we have in the 15th century. 1138 01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:14,560 All of that, I think was contributing to it was 1139 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:18,440 accelerating these dynamics that we saw in the 2nd century, that 1140 01:12:18,440 --> 01:12:22,960 we saw in the 7th century and that we saw in the 11th century 1141 01:12:22,960 --> 01:12:28,120 with the great schism. These these tensions over how 1142 01:12:28,120 --> 01:12:31,920 does the church stay united existed in out in every 1143 01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:37,080 generation. But the in the case of free 1144 01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,680 Reformation Europe, it would seem that the papacy, if there 1145 01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:45,200 was ever a papacy that was straying from the Gospel, it 1146 01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,920 would be that era which would lead to those dynamics, those 1147 01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:53,000 prophetic dynamics already present in the church, coming to 1148 01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:55,680 their full fruition towards eventual schism, even though the 1149 01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:58,600 original reformers did not want a schism. 1150 01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:06,800 So Alfred in the back. So I want to make sure I'm 1151 01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:09,920 understanding what the talk is and isn't. 1152 01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:10,960 Yes, so. The. 1153 01:13:11,720 --> 01:13:18,640 First one understand it. Explaining and saying is why 1154 01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,720 you're not. Yes, uh huh. 1155 01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:29,080 Absolutely is you. Don't seem. 1156 01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:31,760 To address the Orthodox question. 1157 01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:38,240 It seems to me from from listening that there is 2 1158 01:13:38,440 --> 01:13:41,760 reasons appeared to me. There were two reasons you were 1159 01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:43,160 a new author. Yeah, the. 1160 01:13:43,680 --> 01:13:48,360 Humanism of the Protestant Church and the sort of fidelity 1161 01:13:48,480 --> 01:13:51,360 to the the the true box. And I think. 1162 01:13:51,800 --> 01:13:55,360 Some anonymous in May for different of traditions and you 1163 01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:57,280 can go on to use those two. Pillars. 1164 01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:02,400 So just clarifying that you aren't actually addressing why 1165 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:09,240 you aren't. Next summer, bring me back. 1166 01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,520 Yeah, it IA short answer would be it. 1167 01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:17,880 So I have used many Eastern Orthodox arguments today, 1168 01:14:17,880 --> 01:14:24,280 especially for the, especially for the accumulate, the historic 1169 01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:27,040 accumenism, and also a little bit of the prophetic 1170 01:14:27,040 --> 01:14:30,480 ecclesiology. A short answer would be it's 1171 01:14:30,480 --> 01:14:32,480 the. 3rd. Point the Gospel clarity. 1172 01:14:32,720 --> 01:14:36,120 If we had more time, we'd unpack how I still believe the the 1173 01:14:36,160 --> 01:14:40,160 Protestant exposition of the Gospel is still the clearest 1174 01:14:40,720 --> 01:14:43,560 when it's properly preached and why I'm sorry. 1175 01:14:45,840 --> 01:14:50,320 In my personal opinion, when you see Roman Catholic or Easter 1176 01:14:50,320 --> 01:14:54,400 Orthodox evangelizing, well, I think we Protestants have helped 1177 01:14:54,400 --> 01:14:58,000 them remember how to do that. Let's go to the side here, 1178 01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:12,760 Andrew. Yep, Yep. 1179 01:15:28,120 --> 01:15:29,680 Yeah. So how do we speak of the 1180 01:15:29,680 --> 01:15:33,320 continuity of doctrine and the unity across the body because of 1181 01:15:33,320 --> 01:15:40,520 one head? Yes, that is a that is a a real 1182 01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:42,640 draw to many, many a millennial or Gen. 1183 01:15:42,640 --> 01:15:47,800 Z Protestant. Well, as I think it's Brad 1184 01:15:47,800 --> 01:15:54,400 Lillijohn and Chris Casaldo have put it, if you go to Rome, for 1185 01:15:54,400 --> 01:16:00,560 the sake of clarity of doctrine, you have 66 books of the Canon 1186 01:16:00,560 --> 01:16:04,320 and more actually, and you have over 600 papal encyclicals and 1187 01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,480 church documents that you also have to sort through. 1188 01:16:07,000 --> 01:16:09,800 It's actually making things more complex as well. 1189 01:16:09,800 --> 01:16:13,880 It just so Protestants do that as well with our confessions of 1190 01:16:13,880 --> 01:16:17,040 faith. But if we make the argument that 1191 01:16:17,040 --> 01:16:20,640 Protestants have made things too complex and have invited 1192 01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:24,680 disagreements, we should also recognize that the number of 1193 01:16:24,680 --> 01:16:28,440 papal encyclicals and the church documents in the Roman Catholic 1194 01:16:28,440 --> 01:16:31,960 Church, including retractions, that we see in developments. 1195 01:16:31,960 --> 01:16:35,080 And I would, as a Protestant, argue contradictions between 1196 01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:40,520 Trent's and Vatican 2. We have just as much difficulty 1197 01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:46,680 squaring our circles and looking for clarity with regard to the 1198 01:16:46,680 --> 01:16:52,080 the one head of the Church. I think we can, we can and 1199 01:16:52,080 --> 01:16:58,280 should point to Protestant examples of, I can call it 1200 01:16:58,320 --> 01:17:02,360 unprecedented ecumenism. Look at the Lausanne Congress of 1201 01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:07,080 1974 convened by John Stott and Billy Graham and the, the, the, 1202 01:17:07,200 --> 01:17:09,800 the, the thousands of representatives from every 1203 01:17:09,800 --> 01:17:13,040 continent. So Lausanne, 1974, Lausanne, 1204 01:17:13,360 --> 01:17:18,560 that was in Switzerland, 1989 in Manila, 2010 in Cape Town, last 1205 01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:23,040 year in Seoul, Korea. These are ecumenical conferences 1206 01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:26,640 that bring together a wide diversity of Protestant 1207 01:17:26,640 --> 01:17:29,320 denominations. United and making common 1208 01:17:29,320 --> 01:17:30,720 commitments to the preaching of the. 1209 01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:35,360 Gospel look at the Anglican Communion that is represented on 1210 01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,120 every consonant in the world that arguably. 1211 01:17:39,240 --> 01:17:40,680 If you just. Look at a picture of the Gaff 1212 01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:45,040 Con conference in 2018. Jerusalem and the sea of faces 1213 01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:50,080 where no no one's skin color next to another is the same. 1214 01:17:50,080 --> 01:17:54,200 It's beautiful to see. Global ecumenism, I think is 1215 01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:58,120 beautifully practiced by specific bodies of Protestantism 1216 01:17:58,320 --> 01:18:00,480 to this very day. And that is another reason why 1217 01:18:00,480 --> 01:18:04,200 I'm glad to be part of the Anglican Communion and adjacent 1218 01:18:04,200 --> 01:18:05,800 to movements like the Lausanne movement. 1219 01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:07,840 That's a good question. The very back. 1220 01:18:07,840 --> 01:18:11,040 Yeah, I've been. Back into my face for a few 1221 01:18:11,080 --> 01:18:14,320 years now, been volunteering and visiting churches that across 1222 01:18:14,320 --> 01:18:17,040 the DNB. Yeah, people like me are. 1223 01:18:17,040 --> 01:18:17,600 Asking how? Yeah, I'm. 1224 01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:42,800 Trying to educate myself on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 1225 01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:57,040 Feels like. Homelessness. 1226 01:18:59,040 --> 01:19:00,920 Or. Is my sole Yeah. 1227 01:19:00,920 --> 01:19:02,320 To eventually subscribe to something. 1228 01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:02,560 Yeah. Yeah. 1229 01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:03,880 Well, I would say what I would say. 1230 01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:06,280 So I served as a missionary in Ethiopia, based there in seven 1231 01:19:06,280 --> 01:19:08,600 years. And so I worked with Ethiopian 1232 01:19:08,600 --> 01:19:12,680 Orthodox and with Protestants of a variety of traditions and 1233 01:19:12,680 --> 01:19:15,440 Muslim background believers. And so there are many people in 1234 01:19:15,440 --> 01:19:18,600 each of those circles who had experiences of ecclesial 1235 01:19:18,600 --> 01:19:22,520 homelessness. And my encouragement to those 1236 01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:25,840 folks were find a church where the gospel is faithfully 1237 01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:29,680 preached and put yourself under their authority and stick with 1238 01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:33,200 them through thick and thin. That will be the, the, the best 1239 01:19:33,200 --> 01:19:38,200 for your spiritual growth and it would it will be the best for 1240 01:19:38,200 --> 01:19:40,320 your ministry within that church. 1241 01:19:41,600 --> 01:19:48,200 There is a practical, practical utility to, to having a 1242 01:19:48,200 --> 01:19:51,360 doctrinal statement of faith that we agree on so that we can 1243 01:19:51,360 --> 01:19:57,400 do practical ministry together. Even if we, even if we join 1244 01:19:57,400 --> 01:20:01,080 sides with other churches in evangelistic campaigns. 1245 01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:05,400 There's a practical, A pragmatic aspect to having a statement of 1246 01:20:05,400 --> 01:20:09,080 faith that defines who we are as a family, such that we can 1247 01:20:09,080 --> 01:20:12,400 disciple well. Yeah, so nice. 1248 01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:17,840 And creed, I would say go a little bit more defined than 1249 01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:20,440 that with a specific church so that you can be under the 1250 01:20:20,440 --> 01:20:26,160 authority of a, of a priest or a pastor who has taken vows before 1251 01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:30,480 God in the church to shepherd you in the faith, to correct you 1252 01:20:30,480 --> 01:20:34,320 when you stray, to preach the gospel of forgiveness for your 1253 01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:37,160 sins. We can't just hop from church to 1254 01:20:37,160 --> 01:20:41,240 church thinking that we're going to receive those those goods by 1255 01:20:41,240 --> 01:20:44,280 osmosis. It's good to be in a family. 1256 01:20:44,360 --> 01:20:48,080 It's good to be under authority. Yeah. 1257 01:20:48,080 --> 01:20:51,360 Someone had a hand up for a long time, Justin, in the very back. 1258 01:20:51,360 --> 01:20:54,640 So you. Sort of made a couple different 1259 01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:58,920 references and talked a little bit about for church, 1260 01:20:59,840 --> 01:21:03,560 particularly the exile, the church. 1261 01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:04,680 That's sort of true. Churches. 1262 01:21:04,760 --> 01:21:06,360 Exile comes. Back. 1263 01:21:06,840 --> 01:21:07,200 Yeah. When? 1264 01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:13,040 You think about sort of the churches split, split up, sort 1265 01:21:13,040 --> 01:21:14,880 of the big term, not the next 20 years. 1266 01:21:15,120 --> 01:21:16,960 Yeah. Hundred 500 How do? 1267 01:21:18,160 --> 01:21:20,120 You want to. Think about that. 1268 01:21:20,120 --> 01:21:21,040 Yeah. Do you see it more? 1269 01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:23,440 Do you see the churches or theology of the church more? 1270 01:21:23,480 --> 01:21:27,440 That eventually we want to come back together, right? 1271 01:21:27,440 --> 01:21:30,880 That there's things that can be rectified, pull back together. 1272 01:21:31,160 --> 01:21:32,800 Yeah. Or is it more of a historical 1273 01:21:33,040 --> 01:21:38,480 sort of like Asia Minor has a particular version of it and we 1274 01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:40,800 sort of work together and we try? 1275 01:21:41,360 --> 01:21:46,160 To clarify things about. The gospel, yeah, which is just. 1276 01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:47,680 An exile or more? Really, really good question. 1277 01:21:48,160 --> 01:21:51,240 I'm not going to try to wig a lot of this one by saying time's 1278 01:21:51,240 --> 01:21:54,000 up, but I will get to that question. 1279 01:21:54,000 --> 01:21:56,440 And I think that actually might be a good final question to 1280 01:21:56,440 --> 01:21:58,280 answer. It'll be 3:00 PM at that point. 1281 01:21:58,480 --> 01:22:02,760 Good time to end. OK, so we did Wentz. 1282 01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:05,880 Now let's do wither. Where are we headed as the 1283 01:22:05,880 --> 01:22:10,480 church, as the global church that is fractured by schism, by 1284 01:22:10,480 --> 01:22:17,400 division. There's a, there's, there are 1285 01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:25,640 two, two realities that exist at the same time and are already 1286 01:22:25,640 --> 01:22:30,280 not yet. Christ's resurrected body is 1287 01:22:30,280 --> 01:22:33,640 united in the heavenly realms. There's not a piece of him over 1288 01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:34,720 there, a piece of him over there. 1289 01:22:34,720 --> 01:22:40,760 He is resurrected in his in his fullness, representing humanity 1290 01:22:40,760 --> 01:22:44,040 at the right hand of God. And all of our prayer, all of 1291 01:22:44,040 --> 01:22:47,960 our intercession, all of our Eucharistic devotion is because 1292 01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:50,680 Christ is one in the heavenly realms. 1293 01:22:51,520 --> 01:22:56,120 The other reality is that his church is divided on earth. 1294 01:22:56,840 --> 01:23:01,240 And so we have this paradox that Christ is simultaneously united 1295 01:23:01,640 --> 01:23:05,200 in the heavenly realms, but divided among his people on 1296 01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:08,800 earth. Now that question is is 1297 01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:11,960 perplexing has perplexed theologians since even before 1298 01:23:12,280 --> 01:23:14,120 the Reformation. But I. 1299 01:23:14,120 --> 01:23:20,640 Think we need to lean into the? Lean into the the hope of the 1300 01:23:20,640 --> 01:23:27,120 eschaton that the church will be won at the last day and whatever 1301 01:23:27,120 --> 01:23:35,240 we can do this side of eternity to to preach the true Christ and 1302 01:23:35,240 --> 01:23:37,520 to work to the unity of his body. 1303 01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:40,800 I think we need to do both of those things all the time. 1304 01:23:41,200 --> 01:23:44,280 It will look different ways in different circumstances. 1305 01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:48,400 So for example, the East Ethiopian Orthodox Church in the 1306 01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:53,360 Horn of Africa did not have Christians or did not make 1307 01:23:53,360 --> 01:23:58,480 converts of African traditional religion up until the 20th 1308 01:23:58,480 --> 01:24:00,960 century in the southern bit of Ethiopia. 1309 01:24:01,360 --> 01:24:05,080 So when Protestant missionaries in 1895 went to the emperor and 1310 01:24:05,080 --> 01:24:08,800 said, hey, we have the gospel, we've brought all of our goods 1311 01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:11,120 in our coffins because we're going to die here in Ethiopia 1312 01:24:11,120 --> 01:24:13,400 preaching the gospel. Where should we go? 1313 01:24:13,400 --> 01:24:16,760 The emperor said, well, we're already Orthodox N but we're 1314 01:24:16,760 --> 01:24:21,520 Muslim east and we're Pagan South, so go, go South and east. 1315 01:24:21,920 --> 01:24:24,280 And so you have this amazing 80. Year. 1316 01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:26,800 Movement of Protestant Christianity in southern 1317 01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,120 Ethiopia. Now there are some among those 1318 01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:33,360 Protestants who want to go north and say all y'all Ethiopian 1319 01:24:33,360 --> 01:24:35,240 Orthodox have to have to become Protestants. 1320 01:24:35,880 --> 01:24:39,280 I actually disagree with that. I would say I would, I would, I 1321 01:24:39,320 --> 01:24:41,840 would follow a different trend, which is in the north of 1322 01:24:41,840 --> 01:24:45,200 Ethiopia and their seminaries. They're rediscovering the 1323 01:24:45,200 --> 01:24:48,200 Scriptures and there's a little bit of a reformation happening 1324 01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:50,440 even within the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. 1325 01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:55,040 That to me is pointing towards greater Gospel clarity at the 1326 01:24:55,040 --> 01:25:02,400 same time as this ever, ever approaching union of different 1327 01:25:02,640 --> 01:25:07,040 ecclesial bodies, even if it doesn't happen in our lifetime. 1328 01:25:07,440 --> 01:25:11,080 It is that latter ecclesiology that also has Gospel clarity 1329 01:25:11,080 --> 01:25:15,120 that I am committing my life to. Which is, and this is exactly 1330 01:25:15,120 --> 01:25:18,240 why I'm not anathematizing any Roman Catholics or Eastern 1331 01:25:18,240 --> 01:25:21,600 Orthodox. And it is why I have this, this, 1332 01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:25,560 this rugged, indefatigable hope that the Church will one day be 1333 01:25:25,560 --> 01:25:27,600 won. And the way for me most 1334 01:25:27,600 --> 01:25:32,520 faithfully to live towards that is to preach the Gospel in all 1335 01:25:32,520 --> 01:25:35,360 of its clarity. Be grateful for all of my 1336 01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:38,960 teachers, whatever sector of the Church they come from, and to 1337 01:25:38,960 --> 01:25:42,720 encourage those from other church bodies towards that same 1338 01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:45,040 clarity as we all grow in the likeness of Christ. 1339 01:25:45,440 --> 01:25:46,400 So thanks, Justin.