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OK, so there's never been 
anybody that's been mentioned 

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more on the Bottleneck podcast 
than Ellie Norman. 

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You're basically, as Rory 
describes, his client spirit 

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animal. 
That's right, yes. 

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So basically now we have both 
the client side and we've got 

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the agency side and we've got 
myself. 

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We're going to be speaking a lot
about marketing, about 

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creativity, about brand build, 
all of that. 

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But we we love to give our 
guests the opportunity to own 

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their own intro. 
So we're going to give you the 

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floor to tell of our guests like
who you are, what you do, and 

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then we can dive into some of 
the bottlenecks that you've been

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solving along your career, which
is phenomenal, by the way. 

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So we'll go with the the 
straight bit first of all. 

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So Ellie Norman, Chief Marketing
Officer at Formula EI. 

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Think what sits underneath that 
from a very, very young age is 

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just being in environments or in
jobs and opportunities where I 

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can challenge the status quo, 
think about another way to do 

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something and achieve kind of 
the outcomes. 

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And that is just what really 
energises me is always thinking 

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about how else can you do 
something or how else can you 

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solve a problem. 
So Formula E, Manchester United,

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Formula One, Virgin Media, Honda
Motors that C VS Impressive. 

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It is, and I just think I'm 
incredibly lucky. 

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They're lucky. 
Yeah. 

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So, so, so, so let's bring, 
yeah. 

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I wouldn't say that either. 
I'm a very, very big believer in

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luck, but yeah. 
I see a lot of consistency 

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there. 
Is there. 

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Is there a reason why you picked
those brands? 

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Are there something that you saw
in those brands that binds them 

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all together? 
It is the challenger mindset and

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the opportunity when there's 
constraint and that's typically 

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like budget team resources, that
opportunity with constraint. 

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Do you really say how do you 
take creativity to the next 

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level? 
Or actually how do you really 

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step out of the comfort zone to 
feeling actually quite 

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uncomfortable? 
What that big bet swing I 

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really, really sort of thrive on
within the sort of safe 

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parameters of working inside an 
organization. 

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And I think if I take some time 
and I sort of reflect and think 

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back 100% that was everything 
that Honda was about, 

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particularly in, you know, I 
worked at Honda from 2005 until 

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2012. 
And that was much more of a 

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traditional sort of television 
advertising time. 

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But it was a challenger brand 
within the automotive sort of 

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industry against sort of VW seen
as very much that sort of 

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quality sort of premium. 
So you were there for Cog. 

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Were you? 
And so I was agency side at COG 

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and then after COG was in 
Honduras client. 

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Of course. 
Got it. 

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Yeah. 
But all of all of that again 

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came from constraint because of 
the media budgets. 

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The overall budgets were much, 
much smaller. 

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I know. 
Yeah. 

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And again, just working with 
amazing agencies and creatives 

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just to kind of reframe and to 
think about things in a 

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different way. 
So that was with widening 

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Kennedy and about just coming up
to the highest human truths 

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where all car advertising was 
talking about features and 

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specs. 
There was nothing emotional 

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there. 
So that was. 

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I love that. 
You had that one advantage, 

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which is car advertising had 
become very samey, hadn't it? 

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Extraordinarily samey. 
Front three quarter, yeah, 

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that's it. 
Same colour everything, yeah. 

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And again, that opportunity to 
do something different to really

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reframe how does the category 
come to life. 

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And the same was true at sort of
Virgin Media because the 

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incumbents for Sky and BT. 
So that opportunity to be sort 

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of quite disruptive, have an 
entrepreneurial spirit as to how

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are you going to sort of go up 
against Goliath and. 

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We always talk about the fact 
that at Butterfly Effect people 

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always ask us what is your 
niche? 

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Who do you work with? 
And we always respond that it's 

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a mindset. 
We want to work with leaders 

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that have a growth mindset and 
are willing to have a go, right,

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But that be something big or 
something small. 

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And we've just talked about some
pretty massive brands there and 

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to able to go into an 
organization in industries that 

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yes, they're massive and people 
from the outside may think that 

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they're sexy, but it's really 
difficult to actually get a lot 

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of things done, especially if 
it's not conventional. 

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How are you able to do that? 
Like it, It seems that in all 

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the brands that you've been at, 
you've left your footprint, 

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you've seen a visible impact 
from what you've done and that 

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doesn't happen a lot. 
Having brilliant allies and and 

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sort of mentors. 
So I think the certainly the old

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drive gotten it is just about 
who you working with and who you

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working for and spending that 
time to really sort of align in 

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terms of do we all want the same
thing? 

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Are we do we see risk in the 
same way? 

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And are you going to be backed 
and have the support? 

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Like really, really important. 
And then I also think just be a 

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good human being. 
So I walk in every day and I'm 

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like walking stupid every day 
because you don't have the 

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answer to everything. 
And it's as much about how are 

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you listening? 
What questions are you asking? 

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How curious are you to genuinely
sort of learn from others? 

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And I think that really does 
help to build trust. 

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And as soon as you've got a 
relationship that's built into 

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the trust and genuinely 
understanding for the other 

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person, what does good look like
or how can I help that other 

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person? 
You're you're sort of 

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willingness to then maybe try 
extra things because you're 

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coming from a foundation of 
genuine respect and trust. 

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And I think that's just so vital
in absolutely sort of 

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everything. 
You know, they always talk about

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the fact that if you want your 
customers to be excited by the 

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brand, you first have to get 
your team excited by it. 

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And we've obviously worked for 
for some time together. 

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And I always describe a meeting,
a conversation with you as one 

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where I leave wanting to run 
through a brick wall, right? 

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I'm I'm doing it for Ellie. 
I'm excited about what she's 

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building. 
I believe in the vision. 

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And you can see that with the 
team that you have around you 

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that they believe in that too. 
And and it's Michael, my Co 

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found always talks about the 
fact that how you do one thing 

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is how you do everything. 
And it seems that before you can

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get the consumer to believe 
that, you first have to get the 

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team to be bought in and believe
it. 

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Is that something that you do 
intentionally or has that just 

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been happening? 
By the way, can we repeat that 

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again? 
How you do one thing is how you 

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do everything is actually 
really, really interesting in 

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terms of behaviour and culture. 
And actually it's quite 

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interesting, which is sometimes 
that's why small things become 

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hugely important because they're
emblematic of a wider mindset. 

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I knew someone who actually had 
to do the cultural work on Air 

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Force One, and I think they 
started with the menu design. 

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And it seems like, you know, 
it's a really great aircraft 

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with, you know, God knows what 
in terms of, you know, weird 

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technology on board. 
Much of it's secret, but you 

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start with something small and 
emblematic and then rinse and 

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repeat. 
I think that's really, really 

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interesting. 
Yeah, I was listening to a 

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podcast with Ben Horowitz from 
Andreessen Horowitz, and they 

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basically said that culture is 
not a set of beliefs, it's a set

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of behaviors and actions. 
Yeah. 

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And instead of them coming up 
with these philosophical terms, 

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they basically say, here are the
actions that we have. 

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If you're late by a minute, you 
have to pay $10.10 dollars for 

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every minute you don't believe 
that you're more than the brands

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we're working with. 
These are all things that 

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instill a set of actions of this
is the way that we do things 

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here. 
Do you? 

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Do you? 
Do you agree with that? 

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Have you, have you guys had to 
set some beliefs, some actions 

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in place to ensure that 
everybody's on the same page? 

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I do. 
I really believe in that 

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because, but I think it's, it's 
as much about building your 

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tribe and 100% you want 
different lived experiences, but

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to have a, a consistency in what
do people value and how do you 

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kind of show up and, and sort of
behave. 

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And I think I'm actually a 
really disciplined person. 

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Oh yeah, you message me at 5:00 
AM and you've gone to a Barry's 

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class and trust me. 
Oh yeah. 

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Oh yeah. 
Or it's only because after that 

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I like to sit down and just. 
OK, fair enough. 

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I was going to say yeah, yeah, 
yeah. 

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Already at 5:00 AM. 
You've been to, you're going to 

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get credit in the bank for the 
rest of the. 

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Day. 
Where are they open at that 

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time? 
Is there 24 hours I. 

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Leave home at that time. 
So I'm going to get into into 

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London, do that and then eat it 
is that sort of consistency of 

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like knowing when you're going 
to be at your best. 

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And my, my job is as much to 
inspire, to have a real sort of 

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positive energy inside of the 
sort of organization and to be 

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that sort of person who is 
imagining the what if and being 

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quite clear. 
And that's why I love marketing 

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so much because it is, it's 
about people, it's about 

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behavioural change, but it's, 
it's the future. 

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And so many other roles and 
disciplines in the business will

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be from the past. 
It's a rear view mirror. 

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Yeah, yeah. 
And. 

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Actually it's a bit worrying 
because I suppose marketing and 

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R&D are probably the only parts 
of a business that are naturally

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future focused, aren't there in 
many ways, Totally, if you look 

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at finance, if you look at all 
this business about everything 

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needs to be evidence based and 
based on data. 

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The problem, as Roger Martin 
always says, is, well, all big 

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data comes from the past and 
what you're doing, you know, and

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also so much of business is now 
effectively financial reporting 

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of some kind or another that and
again, it's it all the data is 

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effectively past focus, not 
future look. 

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At the venture firms, there's a 
lot of really talented, 

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ambitious, successful ones. 
But everything is based on data 

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in the past or instant, of 
course, but it's still the past,

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right? 
And if you think about, I'm a 

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very simple brain and I like to 
break things down into two 

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things. 
And I say that there's only 

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really two sides of the 
business, the logic side and the

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love side, right? 
The logic side is the 

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information that we all have. 
And it's all about legacy. 

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It's all about facts and 
figures. 

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It's the IQ. 
And then you've got the love 

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side, which is EQ, right? 
But I like to give CF OS a more 

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technical term, which is brand 
defensibility, right? 

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Because whenever you're 
investing in a business and you 

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look at the past, you think that
the past will determine the 

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future. 
But what happens is if you know 

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a brand's defensibility score, 
which is advocacy, how many 

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people that are not part of the 
brand that are talking about the

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brand positively without being 
asked, there is loyalty. 

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People that keep coming back 
because they either love the 

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product, they love the service, 
they love what they represent. 

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And I think that there's one 
that if you look at people like 

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Elon Haven and Donald Trump 
share, which is forgiveness, 

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right? 
Benefit of the doubt. 

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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 
We never, of course, we'd never 

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value that because we tend to 
look at the positive side of 

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marketing, not the absence of 
negatives. 

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Yeah. 
And you know, one of the things 

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I've always argued about is you 
don't want a marketer on the 

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board because it'll be better. 
You need a marketer on a board 

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because if you don't have 
someone on a board with a 

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marketing mindset, you can make 
really dumb decisions. 

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You know, you can cut the price 
of something, you know, and and 

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literally sell less. 
I mean, if you don't have that 

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mindset on the board. 
And so I always think that the 

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problem with marketing, and I 
criticize agencies for this all 

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the time. 
We always go in on this premise 

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that if you do this thing, nice 
things will happen. 

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And of course, that's not how 
you sell. 

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If you don't do this. 
If you don't do this, you will 

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have a problem, you know, if you
don't. 

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And your point about brand 
defensibility is brilliant. 

229
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It's kind of like the extent to 
it which a consumer will allow 

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you to cock up at least once. 
To some degree, insurance or 

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your pension, right? 
Yeah. 

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And it compounds over time. 
That's how you last for 100 

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years. 
There's this sometimes I'm, I'm 

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a big, I'm big on the camp of 
move fast and break things. 

235
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But I think that as well as 
being very urgent and in high 

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pace on the on the logic side, 
you also have to make sure that 

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you have your brand 
defensibility there to ensure 

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that this keeps compounding, 
right? 

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Because at the end of the day, 
something's only a risk if no 

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one's going to to advocate for 
it. 

241
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And a lot of brands don't think 
about that. 

242
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Now, I think this comes with a 
lot of CMOS right now not being 

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able to get a fair seat at the 
table and people actually 

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valuing their opinion and their 
perspective. 

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But Ellie, it seems like you've 
always been able to, from my 

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perspective anyway, get people 
on board to understand the 

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importance of what it is that we
do. 

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How do you go about doing that? 
Because I do know that it's an 

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exercise of making sure that 
people actually understand that 

250
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the benefits of what's happening
from our from the marketing 

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team. 
And honestly think it is taking 

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people on a journey. 
I think the worst thing you can 

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do is just keep everything 
super, super tight and then be 

254
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like, please, may we have this 
level of investment and it's 

255
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going to do this. 
Whereas if you've taken that 

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sort of time to go through the 
entire journey, really be very 

257
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clear this is a problem. 
Or here's our burning platform, 

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case studies, real life case 
studies. 

259
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This is kind of what's 
happening. 

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Be super, super clear as well on
where are the trends, where is 

261
00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:30,520
the market going? 
And it's as much around not 

262
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doing anything doesn't mean you 
stand still. 

263
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We're going to be going 
backwards. 

264
00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,000
Yeah. 
And it's, I think it's really 

265
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sort of setting that out with a 
view to having a very compelling

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sort of picture of the future. 
And your CFO needs to be your 

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partner in crime. 
And I think, you know, Formula 

268
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:57,000
E, we've got a new CFO, Max, but
he's so growth orientated. 

269
00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:02,000
It's absolutely brilliant that 
he's not an accountant in that 

270
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regard. 
So. 

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You've got someone with the 
right risk reward total. 

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Calibration and and sometimes 
it's hard for people inside the 

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organization because at one 
point it'd be how can we save 

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cost here? 
And then everything's like we're

275
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cost cutting and it's like, no, 
no, no, it's where can we be 

276
00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,520
more efficient in order to 
invest and actually where we're 

277
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going to invest and where we're 
placing our bet is here. 

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And having someone like that in 
the business is so powerful 

279
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because we can be the Ying and 
the Yang together because I 

280
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don't have a financial 
background. 

281
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,360
And so having Max to really go 
through, OK, this is this is how

282
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we're going to achieve it. 
He understands opportunity costs

283
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,160
as well as just costs. 
Whereas I'm like, here's where 

284
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the great is going to come from.
There's enough things pointing 

285
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in the right direction that 
would indicate we need to be 

286
00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,560
moving here and this is the bet 
that we should be taking. 

287
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:07,280
And I think a great example most
recently has been sort of EVO 

288
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:12,360
sessions. 
And for many people it's 

289
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,280
incredibly exciting. 
Cannot believe we've done it. 

290
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,640
And for some people it's I can't
believe you've done that. 

291
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,800
And does it compromise XY and Z?
What? 

292
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:22,880
What's the negative? 
What? 

293
00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:26,480
What's the fear on that? 
So there is there was fear or 

294
00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:32,520
there has been sort of criticism
around putting creators into a 

295
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,760
championship car and allowing 
them that experience to drive 

296
00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:36,920
it. 
I mean, they have some training 

297
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,080
beforehand. 
I was going to. 

298
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,160
Say yeah, right. 
But again, it's really thinking 

299
00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:50,200
about how do we Co create with 
creators and the creators aren't

300
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,880
there to promote the sport, but 
the sport is there to allow 

301
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:59,760
creators to create and to 
essentially be sort of an 

302
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:05,160
ecosystem around it. 
And what what working in that 

303
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:12,040
space certainly does is it 
allows us to not by reach, but 

304
00:17:12,040 --> 00:17:17,240
actually to gain trust and 
allowing those creators and 

305
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:21,640
experience that isn't afforded 
to everyone and allowing them 

306
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,680
that flexibility and that 
freedom to then talk to their 

307
00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,720
trusted sort of communities is 
just so, so powerful. 

308
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,160
And so yes, of course, it always
comes to those risks, but 

309
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:40,320
actually just seeing how quickly
the landscape has moved into the

310
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:45,480
role of creator economy, that 
sort of first mover advantage in

311
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,080
doing something that isn't being
done elsewhere just allows us to

312
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:54,240
to have much more agility being 
12 years old. 

313
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:59,240
So we're not caught up in a lot 
of legacy and tradition, but 

314
00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:05,480
really also then to be to be in 
a space where by working with 

315
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,560
creators, we're really able to 
build a community. 

316
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:15,520
So kind of two way versus 
broadcast, but genuinely bring 

317
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,200
to life. 
What should the future of 

318
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,560
motorsport be? 
Because in a sense, with Formula

319
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,200
One itself, you the great 
success was creating a 

320
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:26,800
hinterland, wasn't it? 
Because you always have. 

321
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,840
There's always a danger with a 
sport that you effectively 

322
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,840
become binary. 
They're people who are really 

323
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:35,800
into it and they're people who 
aren't even adjacent. 

324
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,480
And so that kind of create a 
hinterland provides an on ramp 

325
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,520
to people, I think. 
So maybe it is increasing reach 

326
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:44,600
as well as just trust. 
Yeah. 

327
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,960
So the ultimate the. 
Reach is super important, yeah, 

328
00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:53,640
and we obviously need to 
continue to do that, but it's 

329
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:58,200
doing that in a way which is 
less traditional to how it would

330
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,480
have been achieved in the past. 
So certainly in Hondra or Virgin

331
00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,440
Media, that reach was 
predominantly achieved through 

332
00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:08,040
television advertising and paid 
media. 

333
00:19:08,720 --> 00:19:12,440
The reach here is about where 
are we creating those 

334
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:18,800
opportunities to essentially 
generate earned media and to 

335
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,080
work with these creators. 
But it's much, much deeper than 

336
00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,240
that because it's where is the 
affinity between those creators 

337
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,240
and Formula E, Who is their sort
of audience? 

338
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:31,640
How do we sort of become part of
their entertainment sort of diet

339
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,080
and the sort of mix because the 
entertainment bit is so 

340
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:40,720
important for discovery, but the
sport is where the sort of trust

341
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,600
and the loyalty will come from. 
And what you've seen is that the

342
00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,000
fastest growing sports as of 
late, if if you look at the UFC,

343
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,600
they really like dove into 
YouTube and storytelling all 

344
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,000
from the start. 
So much so that there was a 

345
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,240
point when it became even more 
popular than boxing, right? 

346
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:00,880
But boxing actually didn't want 
to embrace it. 

347
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,000
It was only when the Youtubers 
came in and to the point where 

348
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:10,000
Netflix's biggest pay-per-view 
is still Logan Paul versus It's 

349
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,960
crazy how the creator market 
has. 

350
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:17,360
Influenced traditional sports 
and it seems that from a Formula

351
00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:20,840
E standpoint, the team have 
welcomed it, they've understood 

352
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:21,680
it. 
This is the world that we're 

353
00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,000
going into. 
There's no point trying to stick

354
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:26,640
to the past. 
We may as well build for the 

355
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,280
future. 
A. 100% and I think there is 

356
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:38,680
room for all sports and it's not
a it's not an all, it's an and 

357
00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,520
but actually the way that we're 
going to achieve fame, the way 

358
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,080
that we're going to be sort of 
easy to find, the way we'll be 

359
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,720
easy to buy and how to leave is 
through. 

360
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:53,600
How do we genuinely embrace a 
creator or economy and go sort 

361
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,400
of all in with that sort of Co 
creation and having and 

362
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,000
providing the flexibility 
because again, we don't have all

363
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,440
the answers. 
So we can come with a lot of 

364
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:12,920
knowledge about racing, sporting
integrity, but they are coming 

365
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:19,520
with so much in terms of 
storytelling, narrative, how 

366
00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:22,520
we're building communities. 
And for me, it's where do those 

367
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,280
things come together? 
And as a result of that, what 

368
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,560
can we create together that 
neither of us could create by 

369
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:29,120
ourselves? 
And. 

370
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,760
The funny thing is, so I'm going
to bring us back to what you 

371
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,040
said, something that made me 
change the whole where I see 

372
00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,480
marketing, right? 
And you said it in a very blase 

373
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,320
way, but you basically simplify 
something that people 

374
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,760
overcomplicate, which is 
building fame, being easy to 

375
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,440
find and buy and being hard to 
leave. 

376
00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,160
That's effectively what a 
business has to do to be very 

377
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:54,080
great at marketing, right? 
It's like you want to build fame

378
00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,000
amongst the right audience so 
you know who you want to be 

379
00:21:56,120 --> 00:21:57,520
with. 
You want to make sure that they 

380
00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,920
can find you because that's 
that's where the reach comes 

381
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:01,840
into play. 
But then once you have them, you

382
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,040
make sure you don't have a leaky
bucket and you work hard as hell

383
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,240
to keep them. 
Can people do that? 

384
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,160
I love simplicity. 
I also love how you talk about 

385
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,000
fame and actually just expanding
the surface area. 

386
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:22,480
Yeah, it is. 
And also it's, it actually, the 

387
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:26,760
other thing is part of fame. 
You can actually plan for part 

388
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,840
of it. 
The value of fame is that it 

389
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,280
will bring in opportunities that
you yourself would never have 

390
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,440
envisaged. 
So we had this very funny thing 

391
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,000
happened with just just to plug 
this, this isn't my business, 

392
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,640
but but I was very happy for 
them to take the idea this is 

393
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,280
flat white or fuck off, which is
the idea, which is the idea of a

394
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,160
coffee shop which only serves 
one coffee. 

395
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,840
And the original idea as I 
explained it, I wasn't trying to

396
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:50,800
compete head on with Starbucks 
or cost. 

397
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,800
So anything self aggrandizing 
about that I just said at 

398
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:58,320
railway stations and at airports
where time is at a premium, you 

399
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,120
don't want to be behind someone 
in the queue who wants some 

400
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:05,120
customized ice based drink. 
And actually 22 benefits here, 

401
00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:09,280
tap and pay OK means that if you
don't have to actually ask 

402
00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:11,880
people what they want, they can 
simply tap with their credit 

403
00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:13,280
card, pick up a coffee, walk 
off. 

404
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,080
You can make the coffees at 
McDonald's basically for coffee,

405
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,240
OK, or the early Ray Kroc 
McDonald's. 

406
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:22,640
And the other advantage in those
places is that real estate is 

407
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:24,360
expensive. 
And of course it takes up much 

408
00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:27,200
less space because if you're 
only making one type of coffee, 

409
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,440
you can do it in half the space.
And therefore not all your 

410
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,560
profits aren't going to Network 
Rail hopefully. 

411
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,800
And so that was the whole idea. 
And then when we launched, when 

412
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,840
we, when they launched and I 
came along, I, I don't want to 

413
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,120
take any credit, but when the 
launch happened, we turned up 

414
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,520
suddenly, we got about four 
calls from people who said no, 

415
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,120
no, no, no, no. 
This is what I need for 

416
00:23:50,120 --> 00:23:55,480
conferences and exhibitions. 
I don't think we, you know, we 

417
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:57,400
could have sat there planning 
for ages. 

418
00:23:57,400 --> 00:23:58,760
You see, it wouldn't have 
occurred to us. 

419
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:01,000
But they said, no, everybody 
comes out of the plenary 

420
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:03,160
session. 
Now, if you have a brand that 

421
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,600
says in advance it manages 
expectations, don't come here 

422
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,880
and ask for a skinny latte with 
oat milk. 

423
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,400
Actually, you can have oat milk.
That's the one variant. 

424
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,200
You'd have oat milk. 
So we are vegan friendly. 

425
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,600
So that's the only variant. 
They just have two patches. 

426
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,080
This is the oat milk. 
This is the regular milk. 

427
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,400
That's it. 
Tap your card, same price, walk 

428
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,040
off. 
And the conference and 

429
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,200
exhibition organizers said, no, 
no, this is the perfect thing to

430
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:33,120
have as a pop up because we can 
now get 50 people, 100 people, 

431
00:24:33,120 --> 00:24:37,280
all served with a coffee in 
about 5 minutes, rather than 

432
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,600
having a grumpy cue of 70 people
who've come out of the plenary 

433
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,280
session. 
And there's some guy at the 

434
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:48,120
front who's half regular, half 
decaf or whatever, you know, no 

435
00:24:48,120 --> 00:24:50,560
decaf. 
And as I said, flat white or 

436
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,480
fuck off. 
Can I have a cappuccino? 

437
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,720
The answers in the name. 
Yeah. 

438
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,800
But But what was so fascinating 
about that is that is that you 

439
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,480
will never have a monopoly on 
good ideas for where your 

440
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,920
business might be useful or 
where it might be popular. 

441
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:09,320
And so simply being famous turns
the turns the business in. 

442
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,400
It basically turns your 
potential customers into a kind 

443
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,160
of creative function for you. 
But then going back to the point

444
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,520
you started with the fame and 
then you started to understand 

445
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,000
where to be easier to find by 
the people that needed that 

446
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,360
specific thing, right. 
And then now once you've got 

447
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,240
them, it's like, how do you make
sure that they keep coming back 

448
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:29,840
and back and back? 
And I think that so many people 

449
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,200
over complicate things. 
I think I, I, I, there's a, 

450
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,160
there's an over index or over 
exaggeration on just reach 

451
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,280
numbers, impression numbers. 
I think that those are really 

452
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:44,320
important, but the quality of 
the engagement, the quality of 

453
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:45,720
the. 
Relationship and it's context. 

454
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,720
Everything is always kind of 
context. 

455
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,360
It's all context. 
And, and it's like not 

456
00:25:52,360 --> 00:25:55,560
forgetting that. 
And that's where it's amazing to

457
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,480
have so much data, but actually 
the human context, common sense,

458
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,840
which isn't common enough. 
Somebody said brilliantly 

459
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,320
yesterday when I was visiting 
AOI think it was yes, you, you 

460
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,400
can't get a degree in common 
sense that's. 

461
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:11,800
Why I did the University of 
Life? 

462
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,440
Yeah, absolutely right. 
Yeah. 

463
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,880
No, no, no. 
But it is about always having 

464
00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,240
that sort of the context. 
And back to your point, it's 

465
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,440
like where you could buy X 
amount of impressions, but 

466
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,600
actually, would you not rather 
have maybe less? 

467
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:31,080
But the context is so bang on 
that actually you're going to 

468
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,280
capture the sort of attention. 
And, and it's these sort of 

469
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:37,640
subtle nuances about, no, what 
are we really here to do? 

470
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:39,960
And it's so hard to get 
attention. 

471
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,080
And so it's thinking about, 
well, how do you get attention 

472
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,280
to build that sort of fame to 
cut through? 

473
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,480
Interesting, Interesting because
one interesting thing about 

474
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:51,840
context, which was always 
lovely. 

475
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,880
I worked with a company called 
Herdify a little bit and Tom 

476
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:57,600
Ridges said this fantastic 
thing. 

477
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,480
He said which which sound it is 
absolutely obvious, but only 

478
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,040
when you've thought of it. 
He said, if I was selling solar 

479
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,600
panels, I'd rather sell 5 solar 
panels to people who all lived 

480
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:12,360
in the same St. than 20 solar 
panels to people who live 20 

481
00:27:12,360 --> 00:27:16,240
miles apart. 
And so understanding those kind 

482
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,560
of network effects and it's, 
it's where actually it's where 

483
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,800
marketing in a bad customer 
environment, a bad company 

484
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,040
environment, sorry, has a really
tough time because we're dealing

485
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,680
with complexity and generally 
the value of what we do 

486
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:33,800
compounds over time. 
So the real pay off often 

487
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,120
happens three financial years 
after you've spent the money. 

488
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,600
And it's that tipping point of 
where do you get to that tipping

489
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:43,720
point where everyone in my 
streets got a solar panel? 

490
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:45,960
Why am I doing this? 
I'm not part of the tribe. 

491
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,080
It's and you know, at the human 
core, it's belonging. 

492
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,880
Everyone wants to belong. 
And it is finding how do you 

493
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,200
achieve that tipping point in 
the quickest way possible? 

494
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:05,080
And you know electric cars 2014 
when Formula E launched, I think

495
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,880
300,000 was sold, yeah. 
And now we're coming up to sort 

496
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:14,000
of 20 million I think sort of 
end of this year is forecast and

497
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,160
so that. 
By by the way, I mean, I don't 

498
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:20,280
know whether this is just Daily 
Mail journalism or whether there

499
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,080
are malign forces at work, but 
you keep getting these weird 

500
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,480
press stories that electric car 
sales have fallen off a Cliff. 

501
00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,520
Basically. 
They're not true, No. 

502
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:35,120
This is the extraordinary thing.
Isn't it for the first time in 

503
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,280
Europe, there were more electric
cars sold than there were cars 

504
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:44,200
with a combustion engine? 
Well, but, and you know, Reuters

505
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,720
were reporting on that. 
Yeah, in China everything is 

506
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,400
electric. 
Yeah, yeah, Norway is freakish, 

507
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:52,760
isn't it? 
Norway's always been a complete 

508
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,400
outlier where I can't remember 
what it is. 

509
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,040
By the way, there is a do you 
know the story for this, which 

510
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,760
is I think it's the band. 
Aha, is that right? 

511
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,640
Hey, we'll go with that. 
OK, well, they are Norwegian. 

512
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,000
Can someone just check that they
are? 

513
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:06,720
Thank you. 
OK. 

514
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,400
Our our Scandinavian 
correspondent is just. 

515
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,040
Perfect. 
Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

516
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,000
So, OK, So apparently what 
happened? 

517
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:14,600
You're not Norwegian though, are
you? 

518
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,880
You're Swedish so you obviously 
hate them deeply. 

519
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,720
Unless this is a really 
interesting thing by the way, 

520
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:23,560
but be really careful about 
this. 

521
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,960
All Scandinavians are massively 
rude about each other, but if 

522
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,400
you're not Scandinavian and 
you're rude about 1 Scandinavian

523
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,560
country to another, they will 
leap to their defence. 

524
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,920
Sounds like a family. 
It's like a family. 

525
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:36,960
It's exactly that. 
It's exactly that. 

526
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:37,480
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

527
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:43,040
So, So in in amongst themselves,
there's deep rivalry and even 

528
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,600
hatred. 
United you're a vision. 

529
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:46,800
They're all voting for each 
other. 

530
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,040
But anyway, aha. 
Who are not Norwegian. 

531
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,720
Bought some electric. 
This is how you know network 

532
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,440
effects happen. 
Bought some obscure electric car

533
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,400
while they were on tour in 
Switzerland and they took it 

534
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,240
back to Norway and there was a 
massive debate about what 

535
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,120
motorway toll should be paid 
because the system didn't allow 

536
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,840
for electric cars. 
And eventually the Ban Dahar 

537
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:14,640
somehow campaigned so that 
electric cars would be exempt 

538
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,160
from some sort of Rd. tax or 
toll on all the Norwegian roads.

539
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:21,400
And so that gave Norway 
something like a five year head 

540
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,640
start in electric car adoption 
over anywhere else. 

541
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,080
And it's now I can't. 
It's something crazy. 

542
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,160
It's like 90% or something of 
new cars bought in Norway are 

543
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,120
electric. 
And you always talk about the 

544
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:37,960
fact that you know that the 
development makes sense because 

545
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,000
if we had electric cars 1st and 
then somebody suggested that we 

546
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,360
do it the old way. 
Oh yeah. 

547
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:45,520
You wouldn't do it. 
Yeah, no, I mean that that went 

548
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,400
really viral when I said that, 
that it struck me as a fairly 

549
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,200
obvious reframing, which is if 
all cars were electric and 

550
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:55,200
someone invented the internal 
combustion engine, this is. 

551
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:56,160
Nuts. 
Yeah, yeah. 

552
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:59,160
You're putting this in flammable
liquid, you know, in the, you 

553
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:00,960
know, in a tank in the back of 
the vehicle. 

554
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,120
And then you're basically 
blowing things up. 

555
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,920
And you'd say, well, can you 
refuel at home? 

556
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,160
That is ridiculous. 
You can't have a, you can't have

557
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,440
a 500 gallon tank full of 
gasoline under a house sort of 

558
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,440
be insane. 
No, no, you'll need these 

559
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:16,640
special places that sell 
Ginsters and M&S simply food. 

560
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,200
And you'll go to 1 and you'll 
refuel there. 

561
00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:21,960
Everybody go. 
Sorry, mate, you're nuts. 

562
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:24,040
Yeah. 
Yeah, 100%. 

563
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:28,320
It's, it's amazing. 
The efficiency coming from an 

564
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,600
electric power train is what, 
97% And you know, because, and 

565
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,000
that's where there's no sound or
the sound is so quiet because of

566
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,720
the efficiency. 
So actually the sound comes from

567
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,320
inefficiency. 
Oh, so when you look at a 

568
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,800
combustion engine, the most 
efficient combustion engines 

569
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,440
will most probably be about 
5760% efficient. 

570
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,880
Now is. 
It as good as that? 

571
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,040
I'm not even sure. 
It's in like a it. 

572
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:55,680
Depends. 
Oh. 

573
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,080
Yeah, in a race, a combustion 
sort of top, top top Formula One

574
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,600
road combustion engines your 
motoring in your sort of 36. 40 

575
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,280
and you've got no regen by the 
way, have you yeah sorry we're. 

576
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,360
Getting and that and that is why
sound is produced, because it's 

577
00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:12,560
it's inefficiency. 
So I was talking on this podcast

578
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,520
called Cleaning Out, and I said 
this, I, I was explaining what 

579
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:20,760
marketers do and I said, you can
cite efficiency figures, which 

580
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,880
are very appealing to 10% of the
population. 

581
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,880
But I said what you need is for 
the other 90% is a story or an 

582
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,160
observable concrete thing. 
And I said, I discovered that by

583
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,080
accident, which is if you go to 
a station car park after it 

584
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:39,560
snowed, all the gasoline cars, 
the snow has melted off the 

585
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,280
bonnet, you know, even if 
they've only driven from three 

586
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:45,480
miles away, all the electric 
cars still have snow on the 

587
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,720
bonnet even if they've driven 
from 15 miles away. 

588
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,440
So in other words, you know, the
waste heat is so negligible in 

589
00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,400
an electric car and you know, 
and there is a bit of waste heat

590
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,440
in friction. 
But I mean there's this 

591
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,240
beautiful thing. 
You can just look at a row of 

592
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:02,880
cars in the snow and all the 
petrol cars have no snow on the 

593
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:04,680
bonnet and all the electric cars
still do. 

594
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,520
It's fascinating. 
It's that shift in terms of in 

595
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:15,360
some respects everything had 
been centred around speed and 

596
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:17,600
speed and noise were hand in 
hand. 

597
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,840
And actually it's now the 
features very much around 

598
00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,760
software strategy and 
intelligence and that's where 

599
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,480
the progress is coming from. 
And it again, it's that sort of 

600
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:31,440
reframing in terms of what does 
the future look like? 

601
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,960
And it's trying to do that in a 
way that is compelling. 

602
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,440
It's going to capture attention,
be discovered. 

603
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,080
And, and quite frankly, it has 
to be entertaining because 

604
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,320
there's been a sense of 
compromise for for far too long.

605
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:55,800
And there is no compromise. 
It's, it's where the performance

606
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:57,960
is. 
But that is quite a shift, I 

607
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,640
think, for people. 
I never thought of that. 

608
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,600
Yeah. 
That the absence of noise is 

609
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,000
evidence of efficiency. 
So basically when people Carjan 

610
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,800
keys are like, oh, that sounds 
great. 

611
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,560
They're basically saying, oh, 
inefficiency. 

612
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,360
They're basically. 
Yeah. 

613
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,320
But it's still, yeah, it still 
sounds great. 

614
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:20,440
And there is that sort of 
visceral kind of connection and 

615
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:26,040
it's that noise, speed, danger. 
And that's what really kind of 

616
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:27,840
moves people. 
Oh, OK. 

617
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,040
So certainly as a as a marketer,
I'm always thinking, what is 

618
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,000
that visceral connection when 
you're in the future? 

619
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:38,400
And actually it is around 
strategy, intelligence and kind 

620
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,320
of software. 
So how would you put the the 

621
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,560
grit and the emotion into that? 
Yeah, I was going to say now, 

622
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:49,080
because obviously you can see 
that cars are getting more 

623
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,600
efficient. 
And if we know that people 

624
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,480
loathe and have nostalgia over 
the sound, surely you can use 

625
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,400
the technology to recreate that 
sound and that emotion, yeah? 

626
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,120
Right. 
And it's, I mean, even when you 

627
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:07,360
were chatting Jaguar, yeah, 
there are so many of those 

628
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,680
automotive manufacturers that 
are really now thinking about 

629
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:16,120
the sound profile of the cars. 
Where does the the? 

630
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,240
The I pace had a they, they went
and didn't they? 

631
00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:22,040
And they created kind of skewer 
morphic sounds. 

632
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,320
And it's, you know, you, it's 
not. 

633
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:26,440
I don't think it's 
philosophically appropriate to 

634
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:29,120
have something that completely 
mimics a petrol car, because I 

635
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:30,640
think that's sort of dishonest, 
yeah. 

636
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,280
But you want that futuristic 
profiling. 

637
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,600
And also there's a sort of 
pedestrian safety question to it

638
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,120
as well. 
But I mean, and there is 

639
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,760
feedback, I mean, that that was,
that is something that you might

640
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,400
argue is, you know, that 
auditory feedback we got from 

641
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,040
driving the car is something you
can recreate, but it, it 

642
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:51,800
eventually it'll probably 
disappear. 

643
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,800
It's an interesting question, 
but it's, it's, it's rather like

644
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,200
that old thing when in design 
where you have to you build in 

645
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:02,200
familiar elements from the old 
thing to effectively get people 

646
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,480
into the new thing. 
I mean, it is interesting, isn't

647
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:10,880
it, that I'm, I'm sympathetic. 
I mean, I have various friends. 

648
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,880
I mean, Stephen Bailey, the 
designer there. 

649
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:18,360
There's certain people who 
effectively have so much love 

650
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,400
for the gasoline engine and, and
in a sense for a good, we know a

651
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,080
golden age of, of car making as 
well. 

652
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,080
I think Clarkson's comment was, 
you know, he wasn't really 

653
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,120
interested in cars anymore 
because they'd become a bit like

654
00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,480
domestic appliances, like 
washing machines. 

655
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:42,280
I mean, the other way of looking
at it is that in all truth, the 

656
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:47,560
gasoline engine, except at the 
very high end had run out of Rd.

657
00:36:47,720 --> 00:36:50,120
It was, you know, now what we're
seeing here is you. 

658
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,000
Years old, yeah. 
And actually, OK, there were 

659
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,920
still fabulous cars being 
produced in terms of, you know, 

660
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:01,440
prestige cars, but the basic 
family car kind of hit a wall. 

661
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,160
Now what? 
What do you see with electric 

662
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,440
cars? 
Because you can miniaturize 

663
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,520
electric motors much better than
you can petrol engines is a 

664
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:09,600
whole explosion in different 
types of mobility. 

665
00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,600
So we need to include scooters 
in this. 

666
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,160
We need to include cargo bikes. 
You know, we need to include 

667
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:18,960
Waymo driverless vehicles, all 
of which are really only made 

668
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,080
possible by electrification. 
So you might say that. 

669
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,840
Yeah. 
I, I I have a sort of, I mean, 

670
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:26,600
just as. 
OK. 

671
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,760
You'd be kind of soulless if you
didn't have an affection for 

672
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,120
steam trains. 
Yeah. 

673
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,440
OK. 
You know, you know, I get it. 

674
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,360
I don't want to go to work on a 
steam train every day. 

675
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,200
But you would be kind of 
soulless if you didn't recognize

676
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,040
there was something glorious. 
Appreciate it. 

677
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:42,560
Can't you? 
Yeah, you can still appreciate 

678
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,000
it, I agree. 
But at the same time you say, 

679
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:48,920
well cars are becoming like 
domestic appliances, well, no 

680
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,200
one's suggesting that you have a
petrol powered dishwasher, OK. 

681
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,160
I mean, there is a reason why we
electrify things and it is to 

682
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:59,760
some extent inevitable. 
And you can always have more 

683
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:01,680
than one vehicle. 
Well, this is the other 

684
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:03,000
interesting thing, which is 
they. 

685
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,320
What are you doing on that day? 
Where are you going? 

686
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:06,840
What's going to best serve you? 
Well, do you? 

687
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,080
Know, do you know what I 
actually want to have? 

688
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,280
Unfortunately my my wife's the 
the obstacle to this at the 

689
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:14,080
moment. 
I literally want to have two 

690
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,480
cars which is the Lotus Electra 
which I've got and a Microlino. 

691
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:20,800
OK. 
And just so the Microlino is 

692
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:22,800
basically a replica of the Swiss
bubble cuts. 

693
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,320
It's Swiss made. 
I think it's Swiss made, isn't 

694
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,320
it? 
The tiny little thing? 

695
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:29,560
Yeah. 
And my argument is, you know, 

696
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,520
their journeys where I go 25 
miles, I want a great motorway 

697
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,080
car. 
And then there are journeys 

698
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:35,320
where I go to the station. 
Why? 

699
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,160
Why would I not just go in a 
little Microlino at 40 miles an 

700
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,640
hour, plug it into the mains? 
And that would be so that I 

701
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:47,520
mean, interestingly, of course, 
3 year old electric cars in a 

702
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,200
year's time are going to 
literally the, you know, 

703
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,320
ordinary people on median income
can have something which was a 

704
00:38:56,320 --> 00:39:00,280
super car in the petrol age in 
another two or three years. 

705
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,480
Once the the very best of 
today's electric cars filter 

706
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:08,000
into the second hand market, you
know, then, and actually a lot, 

707
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,080
a lot of by the way, a lot of 
the negatives like battery 

708
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:12,840
degradation bullshit, it's all 
gone, doesn't happen. 

709
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,440
It's irrelevant. 
And anyway, you know, I mean, 

710
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,120
you know, in some ways, you 
know, you can intelligently say,

711
00:39:21,120 --> 00:39:25,200
well, you know, that that's not 
actually a terrible sacrifice. 

712
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,680
I've got a three-year old 
fantastic car and the range is 7

713
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:30,800
miles less than it was when it 
was new. 

714
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,760
You know, it's not, you know, I 
bought it for, you know, a third

715
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,480
of the as new price. 
And so there's something really 

716
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:37,920
interesting. 
I think, you know, I think 

717
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,080
there's something really 
interesting happening, But also 

718
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,720
we haven't even begun to see the
kind of inventiveness that might

719
00:39:43,720 --> 00:39:46,720
happen around particularly micro
mobility, I think. 

720
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:49,120
That's really interesting. 
I've. 

721
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,240
Got to ask, what do you drive? 
Actually, wow, where do you want

722
00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,400
to start roaring? 
Yeah. 

723
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:54,080
Go on. 
No, please. 

724
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,520
I I need to know. 
We need to know the the stable. 

725
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:58,480
Yeah, the Ellie Norman stable. 
I. 

726
00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,440
Am a very I love cars. 
Yeah. 

727
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:13,720
So I've got a 2011. 
Porsche 997GT3 Rs which is 

728
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:19,400
wonderfully antisocial and a 
fast little station run around 

729
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:20,680
car. 
Yeah, interesting. 

730
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:27,280
Which again is the Rs is in 
storage, locked away, comes out 

731
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,280
when the weather's lovely 
European Rd. trips, so 

732
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,440
definitely not now. 
Too many potholes. 

733
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:42,160
I mean just no and the same a 
newer 9/11 Targa GTGTS so. 

734
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,160
You haven't got electric. 
No, not at home. 

735
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:49,680
Not at. 
Home no so drive will drive sort

736
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,880
of electric cars, but because my
because my love is with the sort

737
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,720
of older. 
Yeah, got to know. 

738
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:56,320
Fair enough. 
Yeah. 

739
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:01,520
It's just having that super 
quick station car which is 20 

740
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,560
minute drive to the train 
station lock up. 

741
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:10,800
Easy, easy and then nice cars 
for track days, European Rd. 

742
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,360
trips. 
It's fantastic, brilliant. 

743
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:19,120
That for me is perfect. 
It is interesting that question 

744
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,640
by the way, my. 
Go Kart, make it across bikes 

745
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:22,480
you've. 
Got that as well. 

746
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:22,960
Have you? 
Yeah. 

747
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:23,960
Oh, fantastic. 
Yeah. 

748
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,320
She. 
Goes to Barry's at 5:00 AM in 

749
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,480
the morning. 
She's basically Laura Croft. 

750
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,560
Yeah, I I was going to say. 
Definitely not. 

751
00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,880
My father remembers there was a 
Pembrokeshire farmer in the 

752
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,400
1950s. 
I think I've got this right. 

753
00:41:38,720 --> 00:41:44,920
Had a Citroen DSI think it was a
a Jag. 

754
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:46,920
I'm currently if I've got this 
no hold on. 

755
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,280
Citroen, DS, Land Rover 
Defender, a Mini Cooper. 

756
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,040
It might have been a Bentley, 
something like this. 

757
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,600
OK, My father, I remember my 
father saying, OK, you can't 

758
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,400
actually. 
He and his brother were just 

759
00:41:58,400 --> 00:41:59,800
looking at this line up and 
going. 

760
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,400
You can't really improve on 
that. 

761
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,840
There's a car for absolutely 
everything there. 

762
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,680
Absolutely everything. 
And the, the car that I do 

763
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:18,360
really enjoy, actually, I went 
out in the safety car and that's

764
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:21,600
that's the electric Porsche 
Tycoon. 

765
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,760
And that was absurdly fast. 
Yeah. 

766
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,800
Oh yeah, yeah. 
I mean, the acceleration is like

767
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,480
violent actually. 
No, no, no, I didn't get the I 

768
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:35,040
deliberately didn't get the 900 
horsepower Lotus electric 

769
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,160
because I thought it was, you 
know, I'm, I've got enough 

770
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:41,200
self-awareness to know I'm not a
good enough driver in that, you 

771
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,400
know, a. 
Little launch on no. 

772
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:45,760
No, no, I, I don't know. 
I basically said, look, I'll, 

773
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,200
you know, I'll either lose my 
licence or I'll wrap it round a 

774
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:51,200
tree. 
I'm, you know, I've got a, the 

775
00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:53,840
great thing about being 60 is 
you do have awareness of your 

776
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,160
own limitations. 
You gradually acquire that and I

777
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,040
go, look, I'm just not that good
a driver. 

778
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:03,640
I, I wouldn't know what to do. 
And but I'm, I'm utterly 

779
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,960
ecstatic with that car. 
And it's just they are, yeah. 

780
00:43:07,240 --> 00:43:09,680
They're so, so good and actually
just a choice now. 

781
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:13,560
Yeah. 
Again in all range of spectrum. 

782
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,880
Yeah, I don't know. 
And actually the extent to which

783
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,600
the other thing I think we'll 
see is that because it's largely

784
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,480
software and the smaller 
manufacturers will buy this off 

785
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,000
the shelf and then tweak it. 
I think for brands like AR, 

786
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:33,480
niche brands, I mean if I, if I 
were a billionaire, I'd go and 

787
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,400
buy up old car brands like 
Gordon Keeble. 

788
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,600
But somebody owns that 
presumably I don't, but I buy up

789
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,200
some of those kind of really 
interesting heritage brands like

790
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,920
Jensen or Gordon Keeble. 
And then there's a fantastic 

791
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,680
Brit. 
Have you seen the Longbow, this 

792
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,600
new British thing? 
So I'm going down to see them in

793
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,520
a few, yeah, in a few weeks 
time. 

794
00:43:52,720 --> 00:43:56,040
That's this anyway we can put a 
picture up on the screen. 

795
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,960
But this is the idea of 
absolutely classic 2 seater 

796
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,720
British roadster which is 
absolutely gorgeous. 

797
00:44:02,720 --> 00:44:06,400
I mean MG is a great example 
actually of course of that being

798
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,680
as a brand being bought. 
Being bought all. 

799
00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:11,920
Electrification. 
I mean, it's just that. 

800
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,640
And that's the interesting bit, 
isn't it? 

801
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,480
When you have the heritage and 
the nostalgia within a brand. 

802
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,760
But how do you take that into 
the into the future? 

803
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,320
Well, interestingly, Ferraris 
now, don't they? 

804
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,360
Which I thought they'd be the 
last. 

805
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,000
I thought they were the last 
brand that could. 

806
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:30,120
So I mean, I think that's 
Martian split. 

807
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,280
They created Lagonda is an 
electric brand. 

808
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:34,840
And then Aston Martin, I've got 
a vague idea they've they've 

809
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,840
done that. 
But I mean, I always thought 

810
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,200
Ferrari would be the last to 
effectively. 

811
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,640
I think it'll be fascinating to 
see who buys that. 

812
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:48,880
And I remember when I was in 
Formula One, I think Ferrari 

813
00:44:49,800 --> 00:44:53,320
changed their CEO and there was 
so much conversation in the 

814
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,200
paddock about the CE OS 
background. 

815
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:01,240
And his background had come from
essentially sensors and kind of 

816
00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,040
data chips and much more kind of
software orientated. 

817
00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:07,880
And so it's it's super 
interesting to now see this kind

818
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,120
of electric Ferrari, obviously 
with the Johnny Ives. 

819
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,840
Johnny Ives. 
Thing in it as well, so I cannot

820
00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,800
wait to see who orders that. 
What an. 

821
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,880
Interface by the way, I know. 
It's an entirely different 

822
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:25,280
audience. 
Is it a I've got this car and I 

823
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,200
want this one as well. 
So I cannot wait to see that. 

824
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,880
And I'm really interested as 
well with when the Jaguar goes 

825
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,000
on. 
Oh yes, me. 

826
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,360
Too. 
Yeah, the pink one, I've got my 

827
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,680
name on it because that's kind 
of, you know, great thing about 

828
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:39,960
being Welsh is we don't really 
have any shame. 

829
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,040
But. 
But I mean, I think they've done

830
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,640
something very shrewd there, 
which is, and, and obviously 

831
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:51,120
it's a bit like Dylan going 
electric. 

832
00:45:51,240 --> 00:45:56,440
You annoy the purists and 
sometimes it's necessary to 

833
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,600
annoy the purists because the 
danger with purists that they 

834
00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,320
are in love with your past. 
And every now and then, you 

835
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,920
know, as musical acts have to do
the same thing. 

836
00:46:07,240 --> 00:46:10,160
You effectively have to say, you
know, sometimes you're accused 

837
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:11,880
of selling out. 
Sometimes you're accused of 

838
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,400
losing your way. 
People shout Judas at you, but 

839
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,720
you can't be 100% customer 
focused, or at least you've got 

840
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,680
to be focused on the future 
customer, not just the past. 

841
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,840
But, and my, my issue is always 
look, it didn't make sense for 

842
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,360
Jaguar at its scale to compete 
head to head with BMW audio 

843
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,120
Mercedes, who are, you know, 
volume makers. 

844
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,840
Because anybody who's prepared 
to buy a Jaguar or BMW and audio

845
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:42,360
or Mercedes will end up buying 
an audio Mercedes or a BMW. 

846
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,560
Just, you know, just by the law 
of Byron Sharp, you know, you 

847
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,840
know the, the, the scale is its 
own. 

848
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,120
You know, you know, it is its 
own force. 

849
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,880
So it's the old recent trout 
positioning, the battle for your

850
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,040
mind. 
If you can't be at the top of a 

851
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,000
ladder, you've got to build your
own ladder. 

852
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:02,840
Exactly. 
You know, and So what Jaguar is 

853
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,520
doing is saying so the idea of 
of recent trout, you know, 

854
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:09,440
fantastic book by the way. 
I mean the, I think the best 

855
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,320
book positioning the battle for 
your mind and the whole idea is 

856
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,040
that basically there are mental 
rungs. 

857
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,640
You know the consumer has a 
ladder, and if you can be on the

858
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,680
top rung or the second rung, 
you're OK. 

859
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:26,520
But if you're on the 4th rung. 
Where it's like the functional. 

860
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,080
It it fundamentally that's not a
place to be. 

861
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:31,040
So the only thing you've got to 
do is build your own ladder. 

862
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,520
And my argument is, look, Jaguar
isn't going to be a volume car 

863
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,000
maker. 
We would love Jaguars to be made

864
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:41,120
in the UK still. 
And therefore you can't really 

865
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:45,400
compete on price anymore. 
So what you have to do is find 

866
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,760
your own niche, which I think 
they did rather well. 

867
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,640
I mean, you know it. 
I mean the question really, I 

868
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,320
mean, you know, the question I'd
ask is, you know, will Rick 

869
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:58,440
Rubin buy one basically, isn't 
it OK? 

870
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,640
Because you know, if you know, 
if you sell one to Rick Rubin, 

871
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,400
you kind of solve the problem at
that point and. 

872
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,240
It will be fascinating because I
think that's going to come. 

873
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,600
Everything you're we're talking 
about there is mindset. 

874
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:14,440
So that sort of traditional 
purist is most like that is the 

875
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,800
only way. 
Whereas actually is it much more

876
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:22,360
about the mindset of people 
irrespective of demographic in 

877
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:27,120
terms of who just doesn't want 
to settle, who's curious to kind

878
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,280
of move forward, to experiment, 
to try new things and that sort 

879
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,840
of open mindedness. 
And I think from again, a 

880
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:35,800
marketing point of view, 
everyone will talk about 

881
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:41,000
segmentation, but rethinking it 
through that sort of attitude 

882
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,960
and behaviour, it just changes 
the dynamics of what 

883
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,960
realistically, who is your 
audience, where is the 

884
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,720
aspirational audience? 
And then where does that 

885
00:48:49,720 --> 00:48:54,280
actually kind of flow through 
into it is certainly the way 

886
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,960
that we're starting to to think 
and to look at things. 

887
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:04,520
Actually, engineers, as opposed 
to Tran car lovers, nobody, any 

888
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,760
good engineer effectively just 
acknowledges physics, which is 

889
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:12,640
that the electric motor is a 
glorious, simple, magically 

890
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:18,280
efficient thing. 
And you know that that this is 

891
00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,240
inevitable. 
You know, we've electrified 

892
00:49:21,240 --> 00:49:25,000
everything else apart from 
perhaps lawn mowers and domestic

893
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:30,120
heating. 
I mean, and it's, and I suppose,

894
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:33,680
I mean, it is terrifying for the
European car industry, which 

895
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,840
always had engine manufacturing 
as its defensive Moat, didn't 

896
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:39,480
it? 
You know, it was simply too 

897
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,600
difficult to copy. 
And now you've created something

898
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,920
which is actually pretty easy to
copy. 

899
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:48,560
I mean, the, I think the upside 
in terms of just a sort of 

900
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:52,200
Cambrian explosion in kind of 
evolutionary experimentation. 

901
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,440
I mean, I, I'd love to, I'd love
to see a world where, you know, 

902
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:58,040
most people owned a cargo bike. 
Yeah. 

903
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,800
So to your point though about 
things being easy to copy, 

904
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,760
that's probably why these legacy
brands that probably people fell

905
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,200
out of love with are coming 
back. 

906
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,440
Because when you have a lot of 
new players in the game, it 

907
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,600
becomes very difficult to make a
choice and a decision. 

908
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:18,600
So once you have new people 
coming in and you're seeing this

909
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,200
with open AI and Google, right? 
And they came in and they had 

910
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,960
all these other players. 
And then Google just said, you 

911
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:27,240
know, we're the leg, we're the, 
we're the, the brand here. 

912
00:50:27,240 --> 00:50:29,880
We already have the users. 
We're just going to Fast forward

913
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:32,960
our, our, our development and 
everyone just going to come back

914
00:50:32,960 --> 00:50:35,160
to us, right? 
And what you're seeing now is 

915
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,640
whenever you have a lot of new 
characters, someone's going to 

916
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,600
abuse trust. 
And then people are going to 

917
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,200
look for an anchor. 
And usually it's history who's 

918
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,720
been around here forever. 
I can trust that. 

919
00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:48,040
And then if they fuse the 
technology and you become the 

920
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,320
choice, the the the the the 
choice, it makes it easier to to

921
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:52,080
buy. 
Right. 

922
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,600
I think that sometimes having 
too many options and if 

923
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:59,320
everybody's, I always say that 
when technology or IQ is 

924
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,680
democratized to the point where 
the difference between a product

925
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:05,200
is few and far between, the only
thing you have is EQ. 

926
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,120
What's the emotions, right? 
How does it tell a story about 

927
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:09,680
me? 
Can I understand it? 

928
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:12,400
Can I resonate with it? 
That's when that comes to play. 

929
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,560
And I think that if you can 
collaborate and focus on brands 

930
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,520
that are in that space and you 
can fuse them with the IQ, 

931
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:21,840
that's when you see some really 
exciting stuff. 

932
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,960
I had a lovely experience and 
last night I said, you know, you

933
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:27,920
know, I'm a huge fan of the 
Moxie hotel chain because I 

934
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,720
think it's, you know, it's kind 
of, it's the wonderful reverse 

935
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:34,400
benchmarking. 
In other words, do really well 

936
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:38,560
what most hotels don't do well. 
Everything else is done well, 

937
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,400
but in a minimalist way. 
And actually I was a citizen M 

938
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:46,480
last night. 
I, I just come back from both 

939
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:49,000
fairly late and I thought, OK, 
I'll, I'll just stay my wife's 

940
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:50,320
away. 
I'll go and stay overnight. 

941
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:58,320
And it's extraordinary because 
what you do is you do this is 

942
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,520
the reverse benchmarking thing. 
You do really, really well what 

943
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,760
most people don't do very well 
at all, which is the cold 

944
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,360
commonal area thing. 
And actually, you know, after 

945
00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,000
you've checked out and this 
isn't them or a moxie, you feel 

946
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,000
you can hang around downstairs 
all day. 

947
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,520
Whereas at much more expensive 
hotels, you're kind of rendered 

948
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,320
homeless out as soon as 11:00. 
Check out. 

949
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:23,480
What are you doing here? 
You know, you know, and and then

950
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,440
what you do, what marketing 
does. 

951
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:30,840
This is the whole USB thing. 
You focus attention on the area 

952
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,720
where you're different, and then
the area where you're different 

953
00:52:34,720 --> 00:52:38,040
becomes comparatively much more 
important to the consumer's mind

954
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:42,600
and consequently so in other 
words, it's it's, it's that 

955
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,120
Citizen Kane thing, isn't it? 
If you make the headline big 

956
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:46,800
enough, I'll make the story big 
enough. 

957
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:49,800
And if you simplify the message,
it makes it easier to make. 

958
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,760
And it makes it easier for you 
to choose. 

959
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,720
And my my funnily enough my 
choice there is very simple. 

960
00:52:55,640 --> 00:52:58,400
Even if it was someone elses 
money and I had a budget of 

961
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:02,000
£1000, well maybe not 1000 lbs a
night, I think I'd go large 

962
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:03,560
then. 
But even if it was someone else,

963
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:06,440
if it was someone elses money 
and I had a budget of 450 a 

964
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:11,400
night, if it's one night or two 
I'd rather stay at a Moxie or a 

965
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:14,120
Citizen M or maybe the Hoxton. 
OK. 

966
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,960
I'd rather stay there than 
stays, you know, somewhere 

967
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,640
conventional that's £400 a 
night. 

968
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:20,560
Something that's very 
interesting about that. 

969
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,600
And, and you talked about the 
the construct and their design. 

970
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:28,680
There was this trend going out 
on TikTok and Instagram saying 

971
00:53:28,680 --> 00:53:32,120
that millennials have no taste 
because whenever you see a lot 

972
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:34,680
of the things that they're 
designing, it's very monochrome,

973
00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:37,800
very structured. 
There was a comparison between 

974
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:41,280
people in the 90s, like artists 
and celebrities, and there was 

975
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:43,040
color everywhere. 
There was style, there was 

976
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:45,600
individualism. 
Now it seems like everybody is 

977
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:46,920
more clones of each. 
Other. 

978
00:53:47,600 --> 00:53:49,400
Right. 
But it seems like when you have 

979
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:53,800
a a hotel like democracy that 
actually embraces individuality,

980
00:53:53,800 --> 00:53:57,040
design something a little bit 
different, the purple color 

981
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:58,880
effect comes into play. 
Yeah. 

982
00:53:59,240 --> 00:54:02,560
Which is really interesting. 
And Ellie, you talked about the.

983
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,400
Design is incredibly in in those
places. 

984
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:10,240
Design is incredibly articulate 
because it kind of says this 

985
00:54:10,240 --> 00:54:14,520
time it's different. 
And so it it's exactly like flat

986
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:16,400
white or fuck off. 
The whole point of that 

987
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,440
ridiculous idea is that you do 
not turn up with an unrealistic 

988
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:22,400
expectation. 
Yeah, OK. 

989
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:24,720
It does exactly what it says on 
the tin. 

990
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:29,960
It's just by the way, it's so 
funny because when that ad for 

991
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,240
people who don't realize that 
that all comes from an 

992
00:54:32,240 --> 00:54:36,760
advertisement that Howell Henry 
did for Ron Seal, quick drying 

993
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,200
wood stain. 
And the night the ad was going 

994
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:43,200
out, Steve Henry told me this. 
They were sitting their head in 

995
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:45,840
their hands going, we're just 
going to be ridiculed by the 

996
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:47,920
whole of London ad land. 
You know, we've just done this 

997
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,320
ad where a man goes, it's Ron 
Seal. 

998
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:52,440
It's a wood stain that's quick 
drying. 

999
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,600
It does exactly what it says on 
the tin. 

1000
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:57,800
It partly was done by the 
necessity of a client who hated 

1001
00:54:57,800 --> 00:55:00,600
spending any money on anything 
which didn't any time that 

1002
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,280
didn't feature the product. 
So it was. 

1003
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:07,560
And what's so funny is that they
thought they'd be absolutely, 

1004
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:11,320
you know, it was a career ending
ad and it introduced a phrase 

1005
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:13,200
into the English language. 
And here we are. 

1006
00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:14,960
What? 
And but that whole question of 

1007
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:18,520
you, I mean, I was, I was at AO 
yesterday and they said they 

1008
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,480
know how bad customer service is
in Britain. 

1009
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,480
They said, because all we do is 
we tell people what we're going 

1010
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,960
to do and then we do it. 
And they've got nearly 1,000,000

1011
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,160
reviews on Trustpilot and 
they're at 4.9 out of five. 

1012
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:37,520
Now that is actually, when you 
think about that's astounding. 

1013
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,200
And they said what's amazing are
they do give you a bear 

1014
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:44,040
sometimes, OK, which is cute. 
But what's amazing about that, 

1015
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:46,560
as they said, it's not like we, 
you know, it's not like we turn 

1016
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:51,120
up with flowers or we, you know,
but we tell people what we're 

1017
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:52,560
going to do. 
We're clear about what we're 

1018
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:54,800
going to do. 
Then we do, we turn up on time 

1019
00:55:54,800 --> 00:55:57,920
and we do it, and then we go 
away and everybody's ecstatic. 

1020
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,200
Happy with? 
It OK and so I think there's 

1021
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,640
that wonderful thing that design
can do which is effectively 

1022
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,320
unconsciously just frames your 
expectations. 

1023
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:09,040
You know, as soon as you walk 
into one of those hotels, you 

1024
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:11,360
get OK, I'm not going to ask for
my laundry to be done. 

1025
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:13,320
I'm not going to expect room 
service. 

1026
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:16,800
You know, if I asked for a cup 
of tea, it's not going to come 

1027
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,800
in, you know, in a pot on a 
silver tray. 

1028
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,680
I get it right. 
OK, you you've now framed my 

1029
00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:26,200
expectations and how you deliver
and the wonderful you know, when

1030
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,440
design thinking, you know, it's 
an affordance, I guess, isn't 

1031
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:30,880
it? 
It's that wonderful idea of Rob 

1032
00:56:30,880 --> 00:56:33,160
Norman's You ever read that? 
The design of everyday things. 

1033
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,080
I haven't. 
It's your, your namesake, of 

1034
00:56:35,080 --> 00:56:37,200
course. 
So Rob Norman wrote this book 

1035
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:38,640
called The Design of Everyday 
Things. 

1036
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:45,320
And it's it's it's wonderful 
this idea that the best design 

1037
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:49,960
effectively makes it almost 
cognitively impossible for you 

1038
00:56:49,960 --> 00:56:51,600
to use the device in the wrong 
way. 

1039
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,720
So he talks about a teapot and 
how you pour it versus those 

1040
00:56:55,720 --> 00:56:58,400
funny coffee pots where the 
handles on the outside where you

1041
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:01,800
pour it by twisting it and the 
design of the handle without you

1042
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,680
even knowing it tells you what 
to do. 

1043
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,320
And you know, the classic case 
of a bad affordance is a door 

1044
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:12,600
that you push that has a handle 
rather than a push plate because

1045
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:14,880
you always come and you turn out
you look like a prat. 

1046
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,320
And then you know, everybody 
outside goes, you push. 

1047
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:20,880
OK. 
And so there's a wonderful thing

1048
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,680
which you can take that idea 
much, much wider and you know, 

1049
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,120
OK, flat wider, fuck off does it
with words. 

1050
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:31,360
But you can effectively 
communicate expectations. 

1051
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,240
And then if you meet those 
expectations, maybe take one 

1052
00:57:34,240 --> 00:57:37,360
little cute detail and just do 
one extra little cute thing, 

1053
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,360
everybody's pretty damn happy. 
But it's amazing when you when 

1054
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:44,920
you get something that works, 
how it almost then becomes even 

1055
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:50,120
more noticeable because in 
amongst so much stuff, it just 

1056
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:53,920
doesn't work effectively. 
So my favorite thing is I travel

1057
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:56,240
a lot. 
Obviously we've got quite a 

1058
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:57,120
good. 
Restaurant. 

1059
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:01,040
I was going to say yeah. 
My favorite thing is, is there a

1060
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:05,560
plug hole near the mirror in the
hotel for drying your hair? 

1061
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:08,000
So how many hotels will you go 
into? 

1062
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:09,320
Oh. 
No, no, no, no. 

1063
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:14,600
No no for design as to do you 
have ausb charger by the bed for

1064
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:17,200
your device or your phone? 
Is there a plug hole? 

1065
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,200
There is. 
Guy here. 

1066
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:23,280
My one is hook on the back of 
the lavatory door, which is when

1067
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,880
you go to Scandinavia where 
there's a real design, you know,

1068
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:28,960
a real design focus. 
I always joke about this, which 

1069
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:32,360
is that, you know, country by 
country, when you go and close 

1070
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,560
the glue cubicle and you're 
wearing a jacket or you have a 

1071
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,480
handbag, OK, do I have to put it
in a pool of urine or can I 

1072
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,720
hang? 
OK. 

1073
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,640
And in Scandinavia, it's 100%, 
you know, it's unthinkable for 

1074
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,960
Scandis to have a loo door 
without a hook on the back. 

1075
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,640
One of the weirdest ones. 
Airport lounges. 

1076
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,040
You, because you must be a 
familiar airport lounge user. 

1077
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,240
Where they go, we'll have loads 
of plugs and we'll have loads of

1078
00:58:57,240 --> 00:58:59,040
tables. 
But we won't put the tables 

1079
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:00,880
anywhere near the plugs. 
Not together. 

1080
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:02,720
No, no, no. 
The plug will be over there, 

1081
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:04,800
right? 
And then we'll put a table over 

1082
00:59:04,880 --> 00:59:07,080
here. 
What the Hell's going on? 

1083
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:12,000
And then there's also that thing
which I what the hell, Someone 

1084
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,880
who does airport lounges is in 
the pay of the coffee table 

1085
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:18,760
industry, aren't they? 
Because you want something at 

1086
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,000
laptop height. 
Yeah, that all right. 

1087
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,560
They have that business area 
where they have desks. 

1088
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,040
OK, but that's like for the 
saddos, isn't it? 

1089
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:28,800
You never go and sit there 
because that's like that says 

1090
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,240
I'm a corporate saddo. 
I've probably got a spreadsheet 

1091
00:59:32,240 --> 00:59:33,720
open. 
So exactly. 

1092
00:59:33,720 --> 00:59:36,080
You want to sit at the main bit 
of the lounge, but you want to 

1093
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,960
use a laptop. 
OK, so there was that weird 

1094
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:41,200
area. 
I'm a sado. 

1095
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:44,640
It's like the school chess club,
part of the BA lounge. 

1096
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:48,480
So I'm really, really upset at 
your chess playing users. 

1097
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:50,400
Yeah, You know what I mean? 
Yeah. 

1098
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:56,400
And and it's so funny because 
these things aren't that 

1099
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:57,720
difficult. 
And actually, you're absolutely 

1100
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:02,880
right if you're a regular user. 
You get bizarrely, you get 

1101
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:04,240
genuine delight. 
Oh. 

1102
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,720
So exciting. 
The weirdest one with hotels. 

1103
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,520
I'd be interested to know your 
one on this, which is if you use

1104
01:00:09,520 --> 01:00:13,200
the hotel laundry and you don't 
say you're staying for four 

1105
01:00:13,200 --> 01:00:15,160
days, there's a high likelihood 
you're going to use it again. 

1106
01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,120
But when they bring your laundry
back, they never bring a bag and

1107
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:23,400
a form. 
And, and funnily enough, but 

1108
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:27,200
someone said that they do. 
The only two places where 

1109
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,480
they've encountered this is like
the Dorchester and maybe I think

1110
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:32,520
it's the Jumeirah group or 
something like this. 

1111
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,280
OK, but it's a weirdest thing. 
Your laundry comes back. 

1112
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:36,600
You'd think it's the simplest 
thing. 

1113
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,400
Whenever you return someone's 
laundry, take a new bag in a new

1114
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:40,720
form. 
That's quite profitable. 

1115
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,800
There is, there is an element 
where hotels hate laundry 

1116
01:00:44,800 --> 01:00:48,440
because if it goes wrong, it's a
living disaster because you have

1117
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:51,080
someone attending a meeting in 
their underpants or something. 

1118
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,320
OK. 
But you know, if you get it 

1119
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:54,640
right, it's actually quite 
lucrative. 

1120
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:58,040
And I've, I've never understood 
this, which is, you know, you go

1121
01:00:58,480 --> 01:01:01,840
three days later, you go time to
get a bit of laundry done, which

1122
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,280
is weird actually, because you 
don't really need it done. 

1123
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:07,680
But it's the repulsion about 
having dirty clothes in your. 

1124
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,760
Dirty clothes, the ability just 
to travel with hand luggage and 

1125
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,200
you never check. 
Of course, of course. 

1126
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:17,480
Love that because that saves 
time, but it is it you're right 

1127
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,040
it's that thoughtfulness of when
your laundry comes back, there's

1128
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,280
a new bag and there's a slip. 
I also. 

1129
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:24,200
Like I'm not. 
From a shit to a cable. 

1130
01:01:24,240 --> 01:01:27,000
Guy So if you get it back and 
you get the shirts folded, you 

1131
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,240
get put that in there. 
Whereas, you know, otherwise 

1132
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,920
it'll just be a total disaster. 
But it's just one of those weird

1133
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:34,680
pleasures, isn't it? 
It's one of those perks. 

1134
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:36,800
And. 
And yet the bag and the form 

1135
01:01:36,800 --> 01:01:39,600
come back about one time in 10. 
Completely weird. 

1136
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:41,240
Yeah. 
Yeah, Ellie, you were talking 

1137
01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,160
about the human context earlier.
And one thing that I really want

1138
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,480
people to leave with is and 
better understanding of you, 

1139
01:01:47,680 --> 01:01:49,320
right? 
And your signature. 

1140
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,000
We talked about signatures. 
We talked about the story about 

1141
01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,720
my hat, the fact I have 5 of the
same hat, etcetera, etcetera. 

1142
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,640
We're not going to go into 
signatures, but just to get a 

1143
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,040
better understanding of who 
Ellie Norman is, right? 

1144
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:02,640
So let's go right back to the 
start of your career. 

1145
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,360
Marketing is described as one of
those really difficult things 

1146
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,440
that people think is easy and 
fun, right? 

1147
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:11,160
So did you fall into the 
industry? 

1148
01:02:12,000 --> 01:02:13,880
Is there something about the 
industry that sparked your 

1149
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,400
interest? 
Why did you decide to come into 

1150
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:17,640
the space? 
And. 

1151
01:02:17,920 --> 01:02:19,920
By the way, maybe it is easy and
fun. 

1152
01:02:20,080 --> 01:02:21,600
Yeah. 
I mean, Drake Bird always used 

1153
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:24,320
to say, you know, this is a 
simple business made complicated

1154
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:26,360
by fools. 
And there's a little bit of 

1155
01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:27,520
truth to that. 
Yeah. 

1156
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:30,920
It's also made complicated, I 
think, by the the obsessive 

1157
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,840
quantification culture, which is
you, you know, sorry. 

1158
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,120
We, some marketers just need to 
get it accepted that not 

1159
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,680
everything we do pays off 
immediately in a way that you 

1160
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,680
can measure in a a deterministic
way. 

1161
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:47,600
It's a probabilistic enterprise,
you know, And, and that's the 

1162
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,160
great. 
And not everything that counts 

1163
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:53,640
can be measured. 
So early days of. 

1164
01:02:53,720 --> 01:03:00,560
Early days most probably. 
Always a little bit of a rebel, 

1165
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:08,520
so leaving school I went to a 
brilliant grammar school, Kent's

1166
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,040
11 Plus. 
Where were you in Kent? 

1167
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:11,680
'S World of Kent, OH. 
You're wield of Kent. 

1168
01:03:11,840 --> 01:03:13,360
Oh, right. 
Fantastic coverage. 

1169
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:13,920
Exactly. 
Yeah. 

1170
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:15,320
Same friends. 
Kent. 

1171
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:16,440
Massive. 
Here we go. 

1172
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:18,240
Yeah, there we go. 
Practically neighbors well. 

1173
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:19,600
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 
Yeah. 

1174
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:21,960
Toys Hill and where you live? 
Very close. 

1175
01:03:23,560 --> 01:03:26,400
So I went to an amazing school, 
expectation that everyone would 

1176
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,320
go to university and I think 
there's just always been this 

1177
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:33,760
innate sense inside of me of 
there is always a different way 

1178
01:03:33,760 --> 01:03:38,320
to do something. 
Equally not having a clue what I

1179
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:43,480
actually wanted to do, really 
disliking any form of exam 

1180
01:03:43,480 --> 01:03:45,360
taking. 
So I left school. 

1181
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,680
The condition was you had to, I 
had to go and get a job, 

1182
01:03:49,520 --> 01:03:54,840
clearly. 
So my first job was pretty much 

1183
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,400
dog's body. 
Do absolutely anything for the 

1184
01:03:57,400 --> 01:04:04,000
tiniest startup whitening 
toothpaste company, but the. 

1185
01:04:04,520 --> 01:04:05,920
Which one? 
Yanina. 

1186
01:04:06,200 --> 01:04:08,320
Oh right, Sounds like quite an 
expensive. 

1187
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,080
Yeah, yeah, that was a really 
clever, Yeah, 10 lbs of tube. 

1188
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:12,520
Yeah. 
Very different sort of tube 

1189
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:16,640
bottle everything, but it was so
brilliant just to start to 

1190
01:04:16,640 --> 01:04:19,800
actually observe how do things 
get done. 

1191
01:04:19,800 --> 01:04:24,320
Again, trying to get sort of 
pick up coverage, all of those 

1192
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:28,000
kind of moments, whether it was,
I don't know, Fashion Week or 

1193
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,560
this film premiere of just 
getting this toothpaste out to 

1194
01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,840
people. 
But I learnt so much and 

1195
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:39,720
actually from that, and this is 
it always happens like this. 

1196
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:42,640
I say yes more than I say no 
because it's fair opportunity. 

1197
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,960
Yeah, yeah. 
So I was at a party, love 

1198
01:04:45,960 --> 01:04:51,920
meeting, talking to people and 
met a guy and he said, oh, 

1199
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,600
actually I've got a role, you 
should come and apply for it. 

1200
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:58,680
So this was a design sort of 
agency went and applied for the 

1201
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,960
role, successful, then went into
essentially my sort of five 

1202
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,560
years of agency side account 
management. 

1203
01:05:06,640 --> 01:05:09,360
My client was Honda, which was 
brilliant. 

1204
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:14,200
The day-to-day client then left 
and they asked the agency where 

1205
01:05:14,200 --> 01:05:15,920
they're already going to 2nd for
six months. 

1206
01:05:16,920 --> 01:05:23,280
That turned into my seven years 
and I think again, do you? 

1207
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,920
Want worries me. 
Would HR allow all this stuff to

1208
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:27,600
happen? 
Rory, I never would have got a 

1209
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,040
job because. 
I, David Ogilvy, said the same 

1210
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:31,960
thing, by the way. 
He said, you know, I was failed 

1211
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,680
tobacco farmer, university drop 
out, you know, he said. 

1212
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:38,400
My CV when I start, when I 
founded Ogilvy and Mather 

1213
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:40,680
wouldn't even get me admitted, 
you know? 

1214
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:46,720
Like had I genuinely applied for
a job, I wouldn't have actually 

1215
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,840
got through because, you know, 
certainly back then it was like 

1216
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,160
specified must have a degree, 
must have I well see, I didn't 

1217
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,040
have any of that. 
So it genuinely, and that's when

1218
01:05:58,040 --> 01:06:00,800
I say I feel I've been 
incredibly lucky because I've 

1219
01:06:00,800 --> 01:06:05,080
been in the right place at the 
right time and said yes to these

1220
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:10,120
opportunities. 
And even when I left Honda, it 

1221
01:06:10,120 --> 01:06:14,600
was because I was fortunate 
enough to say there's a job 

1222
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:16,240
going, I think you should apply 
for it. 

1223
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,960
So that sort of phone call has 
just meant that I've been in the

1224
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,360
right place at the right time. 
But I think underneath of that. 

1225
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:27,600
That's because you went to the 
party in the first place. 

1226
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:30,560
Always say yes because you never
know what's. 

1227
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:35,800
Going to happen. 
And the same with this sort of 

1228
01:06:36,280 --> 01:06:40,000
rebel sort of nature. 
I mean, there's so much me that 

1229
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:44,440
will play it safe, but just this
curiosity and this rebel nature 

1230
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,520
that even if I don't know 
anything, I feel quite 

1231
01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:49,440
comfortable going well, do you 
know, I'll figure it out. 

1232
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:52,760
So going for I could have stayed
an automotive forever. 

1233
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:57,400
I love it. 
I understand it, but you know, 

1234
01:06:57,400 --> 01:07:01,160
the thought of going into media 
entertainment and telco, why 

1235
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:03,960
there not nothing about that? 
But it's like, well, why not? 

1236
01:07:03,960 --> 01:07:07,440
Watch really is the worst that 
can happen, and I think it's 

1237
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:14,600
been a series of these moments. 
Frighten yourself a little bit, 

1238
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:15,400
yeah. 
Yeah. 

1239
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,280
Like, well, I don't know what an
ARPU is or I don't understand 

1240
01:07:18,280 --> 01:07:21,000
all these kind of funny words, 
but I can learn that. 

1241
01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,840
But what I can bring is some 
thinking from a different 

1242
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:29,920
perspective, a core skill set of
just how do you get shit done? 

1243
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:34,800
Because a PowerPoint slide is 
lovely, but unless it's going to

1244
01:07:34,800 --> 01:07:36,440
get into the real world, it 
means nothing. 

1245
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:41,280
So actually that navigating 
relationships, how to get stuff 

1246
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:47,120
done, take a team with you, you 
can take that anywhere and I can

1247
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:51,400
learn an acronym and I will ask 
questions as to how does a 

1248
01:07:51,400 --> 01:07:53,040
business work? 
Where's the revenue come from, 

1249
01:07:53,040 --> 01:07:56,040
where's the growth come from? 
So going from like auto, 

1250
01:07:56,040 --> 01:08:01,200
intermedia, telco, entertainment
to again then getting a 

1251
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:08,200
telephone call from Liberty 
Media when they'd bought sort of

1252
01:08:08,200 --> 01:08:11,000
Formula One to say, oh, we need 
someone to come and set up kind 

1253
01:08:11,000 --> 01:08:12,760
of marketing. 
I'd never worked in sports 

1254
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:16,800
marketing and everyone said to 
me, oh, you don't know anything 

1255
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,479
about sports marketing. 
But it's not really any 

1256
01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:21,120
different. 
You know, marketing is 

1257
01:08:21,120 --> 01:08:26,640
marketing, but it's, well, what 
can we bring to make sports 

1258
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,680
marketing more sophisticated? 
Because it's really, really hard

1259
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:33,640
selling cars and it's really, 
really hard selling like mobile 

1260
01:08:33,640 --> 01:08:37,319
phone subscriptions. 
And so of course, you, you 

1261
01:08:37,319 --> 01:08:41,000
adapt, you go and ask as many 
questions as possible and say, 

1262
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:43,960
OK, how do we do this? 
OK, yeah, the model is entirely 

1263
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:48,359
different. 
I'm not working with paid, but 

1264
01:08:48,399 --> 01:08:51,720
everything is about what are 
earned and are sort of owned and

1265
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:54,160
there's a sprinkler paper of. 
Course, the fact that you know 

1266
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:57,439
what you don't know is a weird 
advantage. 100%. 

1267
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:01,240
And actually most, I mean, this 
is something that terrifies me 

1268
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,120
actually, which is you look at 
the greatest people in 

1269
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,520
advertising and half of them 
luck their way in. 

1270
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:07,880
Most of them are marketing the 
same. 

1271
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,200
Most of them are autodidacts in 
a way. 

1272
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:13,200
And then you actually look, and 
I was researching this slightly 

1273
01:09:13,200 --> 01:09:14,880
nerdly for something I was 
writing. 

1274
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:19,439
And you then look back at 
history and you realise that 

1275
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:23,880
there's about a 5050 split 
between the really brilliant 

1276
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:27,479
people who are conventionally 
trained and schooled in 

1277
01:09:27,479 --> 01:09:30,600
something and the people who 
herself taught Michael Faraday. 

1278
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,840
OK, who invented the electric 
motor? 

1279
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:35,200
OK. 
I mean, he was, he was basically

1280
01:09:35,399 --> 01:09:39,399
just a random kid from a poor 
family who got a job working for

1281
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:43,359
Humphrey Davy or something. 
I think it was his book binder 

1282
01:09:43,359 --> 01:09:47,040
or something utterly crazy. 
And then started annotating the 

1283
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:50,680
books he was binding. 
I mean, you know, you all these 

1284
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,800
people that are William Blake, 
you could just reel off that. 

1285
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:55,760
I'm Darwin wasn't a trained 
naturalist at all. 

1286
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:57,880
OK. 
And you realize that actually 

1287
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:01,640
what we've done is that we're in
the act of formalizing all this 

1288
01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,880
stuff. 
There's a small gain in what you

1289
01:10:04,880 --> 01:10:09,160
might call you make slightly 
fewer mistakes, but at the price

1290
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:10,600
of not having the breakthrough 
high. 

1291
01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:13,480
I mean, 1/3 of the great people 
in advertising talk came from 

1292
01:10:13,480 --> 01:10:16,480
the post room or something, but 
the fact that we've lost that 

1293
01:10:16,480 --> 01:10:18,640
really scares me. 
When you would walk into the 

1294
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:23,640
Wyden and Kennedy office in 
London, I love it. 

1295
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:29,000
But there was a mannequin and 
the mannequin was dressed in a 

1296
01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:33,400
pinstripe suit, bowler hat, and 
he had a briefcase. 

1297
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:35,880
And on the side of the 
briefcase, it said walk in 

1298
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,920
stupid every day. 
And that has just stuck with me 

1299
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:42,640
so much back to the point of I'm
really aware of what I don't 

1300
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:46,680
know. 
And I think that comes comes 

1301
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:51,960
from a place of I'm always 
wanting to learn more and more 

1302
01:10:51,960 --> 01:10:54,680
and more, but I'm so aware of 
what I don't know. 

1303
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:59,120
And that drives my curiosity or 
the fact that I'll then go down 

1304
01:10:59,120 --> 01:11:04,200
like little rabbit holes. 
So, you know, clearly AI is is 

1305
01:11:04,200 --> 01:11:06,600
here and I'm like, OK, how does 
this work? 

1306
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,120
So I just want to play with it 
and start to sort of experiments

1307
01:11:10,120 --> 01:11:12,000
and say, well, how can we sort 
of introduce this? 

1308
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:13,680
Or actually if we did this, what
would happen? 

1309
01:11:14,160 --> 01:11:17,000
Or, you know, I'll go and think,
oh, maybe I shouldn't. 

1310
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:20,280
Like I've learned so much over 
25 years. 

1311
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:21,920
I'm like, OK, maybe I should 
test myself. 

1312
01:11:22,240 --> 01:11:26,120
Do I know marketing or do I not?
So I'll go and do Mark Ritson's 

1313
01:11:26,440 --> 01:11:35,160
mini MBAs and I just love that. 
But that ability to be confident

1314
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:38,840
enough say, I'd actually don't 
have all the answers, but. 

1315
01:11:38,840 --> 01:11:41,720
Happy with ambiguity. 
I'm really comfortable with it. 

1316
01:11:42,000 --> 01:11:46,880
I always think in in Formula E 
now when I'm talking to people 

1317
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:52,400
and we're recruiting uncertainty
experts are the people I love. 

1318
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:58,120
Interesting. 
Because nothing is certain, the 

1319
01:11:58,120 --> 01:12:00,000
best we can do is provide 
clarity. 

1320
01:12:01,440 --> 01:12:04,280
But those people that are just 
comfortable with ambiguity 

1321
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:08,320
because everything is moving so,
so fast, it's like, no, let's 

1322
01:12:08,320 --> 01:12:11,800
just kind of go with the flow. 
Things are always changing and 

1323
01:12:11,800 --> 01:12:15,560
they change even more so because
we're 12 years old. 

1324
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:22,320
We're a 220 person organization.
Shit happens, you just got to 

1325
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:24,560
deal with it. 
And if you take the Netflix 

1326
01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:27,600
thing for Formula One, for 
example, that presumably was a 

1327
01:12:27,600 --> 01:12:33,960
left field thing, was it? 
That was honestly a perfect 

1328
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:39,160
moment because Liberty Media had
bought from the one from Bernie.

1329
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:43,960
So this was at the very 
beginning of 2017, January 2017,

1330
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,200
I think they completed the sort 
of acquisition. 

1331
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,880
The big dream was always to 
crack the US, wasn't it? 

1332
01:12:48,960 --> 01:12:53,120
And Chase and Sean came in. 
Chase Carey and Sean Bratches 2 

1333
01:12:53,120 --> 01:12:59,560
like incredible men to work for.
I then started a little bit 

1334
01:12:59,560 --> 01:13:05,120
behind the scenes in April 2017 
with them, and a number of kind 

1335
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:07,040
of proposals had sort of come 
in. 

1336
01:13:07,040 --> 01:13:10,840
And obviously it had always been
a no previously very, very sort 

1337
01:13:10,840 --> 01:13:14,080
of secretive in terms of no 
one's coming in. 

1338
01:13:15,560 --> 01:13:17,560
And Sean was like, I think we 
should just do this. 

1339
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:20,720
To your point, North America 
really important. 

1340
01:13:20,720 --> 01:13:23,120
There were proposals from 
Netflix and a number of other 

1341
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:27,760
streaming companies and we just 
sat at the table and it was a 

1342
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:30,600
case of why would we not do 
this? 

1343
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:36,200
Like Netflix 2017, arguably 
still the biggest and the best 

1344
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:38,960
storytellers. 
And you know, there was 

1345
01:13:38,960 --> 01:13:44,360
conversation, our broadcast team
at Formula One, absolutely 

1346
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:46,920
amazing at libraries 
broadcasting. 

1347
01:13:47,160 --> 01:13:49,280
And they were like, do you know,
we can do this? 

1348
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:52,760
And I said, you could do this, 
but that's not what you're an 

1349
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:56,360
expert at. 
And so why not work with the 

1350
01:13:56,360 --> 01:13:59,800
experts again, allow them into 
the Formula One world? 

1351
01:14:00,920 --> 01:14:05,000
Everyone was so, so nervous. 
But it's not in their interest 

1352
01:14:05,360 --> 01:14:09,360
to go so far that no one's not 
that no one in the paddock is 

1353
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,880
going to talk to them, right? 
Because otherwise it's not going

1354
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:15,240
to be a success. 
But the doing the drive to 

1355
01:14:15,240 --> 01:14:22,520
survive and I'm the thing I'm 
most happy about was maintaining

1356
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:29,000
the conviction that at Formula 
One there was sort of three or 

1357
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,880
four of us that would see the 
episodes before it was kind of 

1358
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:36,520
released. 
And I'm most pleased that we got

1359
01:14:36,520 --> 01:14:41,280
to a place where the teams could
only look at the edits where 

1360
01:14:41,280 --> 01:14:43,240
they featured. 
So no one ever saw the full 

1361
01:14:43,240 --> 01:14:47,480
episode. 
Because I think had we made it 

1362
01:14:47,480 --> 01:14:51,360
in terms of everyone needs to 
sign off on this, it would have 

1363
01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:54,960
become vanilla and then the 
average would have just been so 

1364
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,840
sort of reduced. 
Whereas actually people by 

1365
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,120
people. 
And so this is all about who are

1366
01:15:00,120 --> 01:15:02,960
the characters, who are the 
heroes, the anti heroes, where 

1367
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,840
are the rivalries? 
Because people want to again, 

1368
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,360
feel this sense of connection 
and belonging and to kind of 

1369
01:15:09,360 --> 01:15:12,120
have a side with someone. 
It was a double win in a sense, 

1370
01:15:12,120 --> 01:15:15,800
wasn't it, because it broke the 
US and it also broke into a much

1371
01:15:15,840 --> 01:15:17,600
bigger, more female audience 
than them? 

1372
01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:20,200
Hugely. 
And I think I, you know, COVID 

1373
01:15:20,200 --> 01:15:27,200
was horrific for so many 
reasons, but actually the timing

1374
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:33,200
was lucky for Formula One. 
And I think a combination of the

1375
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:38,200
first drive to survive series 
was released in from memory, 

1376
01:15:38,200 --> 01:15:44,680
February 2019. 
And so we spent 2017 filming it.

1377
01:15:44,920 --> 01:15:49,840
2018 first one came out and then
obviously through 2019 

1378
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:53,520
championship they were filming 
and then that released in 

1379
01:15:53,720 --> 01:15:56,120
February 2020. 
So then, when the world shut 

1380
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:57,640
down and you. 
Still have. 

1381
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:01,520
If you remember last dance, you.
Had a back catalog. 

1382
01:16:01,800 --> 01:16:04,840
And Drop survived. 
So then everyone discovered this

1383
01:16:05,120 --> 01:16:11,000
two seasons, so essentially kind
of 20 episodes, plus all of the 

1384
01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:15,680
work that Chase and us as a 
leadership team did to go racing

1385
01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:17,880
in. 
So it was the first global sport

1386
01:16:18,240 --> 01:16:22,640
to go racing again in at the 
beginning of July 2017. 

1387
01:16:22,640 --> 01:16:29,400
So sorry, 2020, early, 17 races,
13 countries. 

1388
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:33,120
It didn't feel odd that there 
wasn't a crowd there because of 

1389
01:16:33,120 --> 01:16:36,800
the engine sound. 
So I think Netflix drives to 

1390
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:41,560
survive COVID and being the 
first global sport back with a 

1391
01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:46,400
really compelling competitive 
calendar and during the races 

1392
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:49,360
which were cancelled. 
So I was in Melbourne when we 

1393
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:52,520
had to cancel that first race. 
And then, you know, we didn't go

1394
01:16:52,520 --> 01:16:56,560
to Hanoi, China, didn't happen, 
etcetera, etcetera, but we got 

1395
01:16:56,560 --> 01:17:00,360
all of the Formula One drivers 
to then actually do online 

1396
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:03,440
racing. 
So for the first time, people 

1397
01:17:03,440 --> 01:17:06,360
that were watching Drive Survive
were then actually seeing the 

1398
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:12,640
Formula One drivers, no helmets 
on chat talking, kind of taking 

1399
01:17:12,640 --> 01:17:14,680
the piss out of each other and 
the thing. 

1400
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:17,760
That was missing, particularly I
think, for a female audience, 

1401
01:17:17,760 --> 01:17:20,360
without getting into 
stereotyping, was the 

1402
01:17:20,360 --> 01:17:23,880
interrelatedness. 
It's a bit like computing, which

1403
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:27,280
was uniquely male until you 
connect them together, wasn't 

1404
01:17:27,280 --> 01:17:28,680
it? 
When you had stand alone in 

1405
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:32,400
computers, it was a total kind 
of, you know, male nerd fest. 

1406
01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:35,640
And then Steve Jobs came. 
Along, yeah, and then and also 

1407
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:39,320
also they became communication 
devices rather than stand alone 

1408
01:17:39,800 --> 01:17:41,800
glorified calculators I suppose.
Yeah. 

1409
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:44,720
Again, all of this just context 
and the storytelling. 

1410
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:49,360
So for me, as I kind of reflect 
and look back, I think 

1411
01:17:49,360 --> 01:17:54,920
combination of rebranding the 
sport which comes with its 

1412
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:58,040
risks, I mean, there's so much 
advice of like never rebrand. 

1413
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,800
Right. 
But actually changing what it 

1414
01:18:02,800 --> 01:18:07,440
looked like, the logo signalled 
change not dissimilar to what 

1415
01:18:07,440 --> 01:18:10,440
Jaguar are now doing. 
What, what drove the decision to

1416
01:18:10,440 --> 01:18:13,280
do that? 
Was that was that a Liberty 

1417
01:18:13,280 --> 01:18:16,680
Media? 
I spent the first four months 

1418
01:18:16,960 --> 01:18:20,880
and worked with an agency called
Flamingo, I think, I think they 

1419
01:18:20,880 --> 01:18:24,840
shot now actually. 
But we just did this incredible 

1420
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:31,360
ethnographic study, which was 
absolutely fascinating in terms 

1421
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:36,240
of clearly all of the symbols, 
the associations, and 

1422
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:40,880
essentially where it got to was 
Bernie had built such an 

1423
01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:45,720
incredible sport and his mind at
the time to generate and put 

1424
01:18:45,720 --> 01:18:49,600
that together was phenomenal. 
But certainly over the last 

1425
01:18:50,120 --> 01:18:57,280
10-15 years, it had very much 
become seen as boring, super 

1426
01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:01,440
clinical, a little bit like 
maybe driving around the M25. 

1427
01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:07,520
The logo was a badge. 
It wasn't part of how do you 

1428
01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:11,360
think about brands and an 
ecosystem not friendly in terms 

1429
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:16,840
of kind of digital or sort of 
any of that and had many 

1430
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:20,800
perceptions that were connected 
to an old Formula One. 

1431
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:26,640
So in terms of how do we best 
signal changes coming when the 

1432
01:19:26,640 --> 01:19:30,440
evolution of the car technology 
isn't going to happen overnight?

1433
01:19:30,680 --> 01:19:36,400
So, you know, the next rule 
changes weren't until 2021, they

1434
01:19:36,400 --> 01:19:39,120
got delayed with COVID. 
Obviously now we've got this set

1435
01:19:39,120 --> 01:19:42,680
of rule changes, 2026. 
So then it's a case of, well, 

1436
01:19:42,680 --> 01:19:45,920
how are you signalling that this
is real change? 

1437
01:19:47,120 --> 01:19:51,240
And in Western society, so 
visually driven, it was a case 

1438
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:56,680
of we know enough that if we 
continue down this path, we're 

1439
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:01,360
not going to get to a turn 
around position and essentially 

1440
01:20:01,800 --> 01:20:05,640
stop the downward trend. 
So yes, it's a risk. 

1441
01:20:05,640 --> 01:20:09,080
Was there a bit of an American 
acronym drive as well? 

1442
01:20:09,120 --> 01:20:13,280
You have, you know, MLSMLB, Look
at the MBA sports. 

1443
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:16,480
Yeah. 
So much for how they've sort of 

1444
01:20:16,480 --> 01:20:18,840
done things. 
And again, just these sort of 

1445
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:24,600
identities around it. 
So yeah, Formula One, it's not 

1446
01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,320
really user friendly when you're
thinking about how you showing 

1447
01:20:27,320 --> 01:20:30,360
up and where sort of culture is 
now and how culture is coming 

1448
01:20:30,360 --> 01:20:34,120
through fashion and music and 
kind of broader entertainment. 

1449
01:20:34,480 --> 01:20:38,920
I wanted to get Formula One to a
place where it could be 

1450
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:42,240
genuinely part of culture versus
it just looking like it was 

1451
01:20:42,240 --> 01:20:46,920
stuck on. 
And so thinking about what does 

1452
01:20:46,920 --> 01:20:52,800
it need to look like? 
How should, how should it work 

1453
01:20:53,040 --> 01:20:54,600
in different environments and 
cultures? 

1454
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:56,240
So actually, how do you bring 
movement into it? 

1455
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:57,680
How do you bring texture into 
it? 

1456
01:20:57,680 --> 01:21:03,560
How do you reverse and correct 
so much of the sense that 

1457
01:21:03,560 --> 01:21:07,040
Formula One had become very 
engineering and very kind of 

1458
01:21:07,040 --> 01:21:09,360
clinical and just had no feeling
to it. 

1459
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:17,000
Tone of voice explored sound, 
smell, actually everything. 

1460
01:21:17,000 --> 01:21:21,840
And and that for me, having that
set of principles and then 

1461
01:21:21,840 --> 01:21:25,200
really genuinely thinking, well,
what could this become then 

1462
01:21:25,200 --> 01:21:29,880
meant that when it got into 
which tactics should we do No 

1463
01:21:29,880 --> 01:21:37,280
brainer drive to survive, 
fashion, collaborations, music. 

1464
01:21:37,280 --> 01:21:41,240
So just taking Formula One out 
of its kind of echo chamber, 

1465
01:21:41,960 --> 01:21:45,280
encouraging the drivers to be 
who they are as people. 

1466
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:50,000
Because it was, it was 
effectively an automotive. 

1467
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:52,000
It is. 
If you think about all the 

1468
01:21:52,000 --> 01:21:56,320
sponsors, all the all the brand 
connections were all essentially

1469
01:21:56,320 --> 01:21:58,640
sort of inbred, weren't they in 
a sense? 

1470
01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:04,640
And at the time, Ross who? 
Ross Braun, who is an incredible

1471
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:08,000
man, I was going to say I think 
he's mostly won about 40 World 

1472
01:22:08,000 --> 01:22:11,440
Championships. 
Like a phenomenal person, 

1473
01:22:11,440 --> 01:22:15,200
incredible sort of leader. 
He came into Formula One with a 

1474
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:20,680
view of working from the FIA to 
look at the essentially the 

1475
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:27,240
rules of Formula One. 
And a lot of it was, to your 

1476
01:22:27,240 --> 01:22:32,240
point, engineers have been 
talking to engineers and with 

1477
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:35,240
that comes complexity and 
actually a lot more money. 

1478
01:22:35,640 --> 01:22:38,840
But so many of these things were
invisible to people. 

1479
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:43,440
So actually really looking at 
the rules with kind of Ross and 

1480
01:22:43,440 --> 01:22:45,760
the FIA was they're saying, 
well, how can you take some of 

1481
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:48,920
that out? 
So that the cost for teams to 

1482
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:50,880
actually operate the teams was 
reduced. 

1483
01:22:50,880 --> 01:22:54,560
So a cost cap was introduced and
I think up and. 

1484
01:22:54,560 --> 01:22:56,400
He's like the Jurgen Klopf, 
isn't he? 

1485
01:22:56,400 --> 01:22:57,640
Of the business. 
He's like this. 

1486
01:22:58,000 --> 01:22:59,880
I'm not remotely. 
I'm very straight back. 

1487
01:22:59,880 --> 01:23:01,600
I'm not remotely interested in 
football. 

1488
01:23:01,960 --> 01:23:04,960
But every time Jurgen appeared 
on the TV, I go, who is this 

1489
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:06,680
guy? 
He's just like the complete 

1490
01:23:06,680 --> 01:23:09,600
human being, Yeah, you know, 
absolutely complete rounded 

1491
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,440
human being and so. 
And I think the the investment 

1492
01:23:13,440 --> 01:23:16,600
for teams have been so much. 
There was no team that was 

1493
01:23:16,600 --> 01:23:18,960
actually making a profit. 
Then the cost cap was 

1494
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,360
introduced. 
I think it's from memory, it 

1495
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:31,360
started at $140 million, then to
135, then to 130 and then now 

1496
01:23:31,360 --> 01:23:34,760
you see that pretty much every 
single form on team on the grid 

1497
01:23:34,760 --> 01:23:37,240
that enterprise values increase 
and they're now profitable. 

1498
01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:41,600
I mean, the cost cap has now 
just gone to $215 million 

1499
01:23:41,600 --> 01:23:44,560
because they've got new set of 
regulations, so 50%. 

1500
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:47,000
Oh, that's allowance for the. 
Yeah, got it. 

1501
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:51,120
And now they've gone 50% 
electric, so it's increased. 

1502
01:23:51,600 --> 01:24:01,680
What's interesting is our cost 
cap is $15 million and 100% 

1503
01:24:01,680 --> 01:24:04,480
electric. 
So what you see is a lot of 

1504
01:24:04,480 --> 01:24:10,320
manufacturers again coming back 
to is the future of you. 

1505
01:24:10,320 --> 01:24:12,960
Want to play at that? 
Point software and intelligence 

1506
01:24:12,960 --> 01:24:17,560
and strategy they can play in 
our sandbox, which is 

1507
01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:21,440
unpredictable, so brilliant for 
real world testing software 

1508
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:24,280
program that overnight and it's 
in your automotive fleet. 

1509
01:24:25,480 --> 01:24:28,920
Yeah, it's so the Oh, you mean 
the speed of diffusion is just 

1510
01:24:29,160 --> 01:24:32,320
Yeah. 
Yeah, that, that race to Rd. is 

1511
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:34,760
absolutely phenomenal and I love
it. 

1512
01:24:34,760 --> 01:24:37,440
You go in the garage now if 
you've been. 

1513
01:24:37,440 --> 01:24:40,040
Yeah, I love it. 
People are on laptops. 

1514
01:24:40,080 --> 01:24:43,440
It is software. 
The engineers are phenomenal. 

1515
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:49,640
Hey, I, I, I, I went to Miami 
and the team and just being 

1516
01:24:49,640 --> 01:24:53,920
around the whole environment. 
When is the Miami formulae? 

1517
01:24:54,160 --> 01:24:58,400
So we've just been 31st of 
January, so our next race is 

1518
01:24:58,400 --> 01:25:02,920
Madrid, yeah, which is 21st of 
March. 

1519
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:04,840
When you're back in London, 
because I'll go, I'll go on 

1520
01:25:05,080 --> 01:25:07,040
it's. 
August come together. 

1521
01:25:07,040 --> 01:25:09,200
I'll come. 
I've been around in August. 15th

1522
01:25:09,240 --> 01:25:11,200
and 16th. 
Never leave the UK in August in.

1523
01:25:11,920 --> 01:25:15,640
Months perfect in the team that 
Formula E has the opportunity to

1524
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:17,240
be Silicon Valley's favorite 
sport. 

1525
01:25:17,440 --> 01:25:20,160
Yeah, software. 
Yeah, only do you have the 

1526
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:22,520
opportunity to get the credit 
economy involved, Not only do 

1527
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:25,840
you have the tech space 
involved, when you go and live 

1528
01:25:25,840 --> 01:25:27,720
and read the experience, it's 
phenomenal. 

1529
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:32,880
And and I was really excited 
when Ellie got us on board to 

1530
01:25:32,880 --> 01:25:35,000
understand the sport. 
Why do people love it? 

1531
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:38,240
And, and now with the Evo 
session, it's really started to 

1532
01:25:38,240 --> 01:25:41,720
bring it to life, right. 
And going back to a thing that 

1533
01:25:41,720 --> 01:25:45,520
we said before we wrap up, I've 
always learned that there's no 

1534
01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:49,600
one more dangerous in a 
boardroom than an intelligent 

1535
01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:51,360
person with a fixed mindset, 
right? 

1536
01:25:51,360 --> 01:25:53,800
Because they'll use all these 
words or use the fact that 

1537
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,320
they're an expert or whatever to
justify whatever bullshit that 

1538
01:25:57,320 --> 01:25:59,400
they've learned. 
But I think that. 

1539
01:25:59,440 --> 01:26:02,120
A lot of intelligence is 
actually directed towards self 

1540
01:26:02,120 --> 01:26:07,240
justification. 100% and and 
every now and then you're in a 

1541
01:26:07,240 --> 01:26:11,360
room with somebody that didn't 
take the conventional route, the

1542
01:26:11,360 --> 01:26:13,720
zig where everybody else zags. 
They're willing to go into the 

1543
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:17,680
room and say, let me listen to 
everybody and let's figure 

1544
01:26:17,680 --> 01:26:19,160
things out and make things 
happen. 

1545
01:26:19,160 --> 01:26:23,640
And I think you are one of those
people, right, that you are 

1546
01:26:23,640 --> 01:26:25,320
very, very intelligent by the 
way. 

1547
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:29,320
But the role there is the role 
is not for me to exercise my 

1548
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:30,880
intelligence. 
They learn from me. 

1549
01:26:31,000 --> 01:26:33,640
The, the goal for me is to learn
and make sure that we're making 

1550
01:26:33,640 --> 01:26:36,800
the right decisions to move 
forward based on what is just 

1551
01:26:36,840 --> 01:26:40,320
obvious, right? 
And so many people have got a 

1552
01:26:40,320 --> 01:26:43,720
handbrake on because it's all 
about themselves, right? 

1553
01:26:43,720 --> 01:26:46,120
And, and, and it's, and I see 
that with you. 

1554
01:26:46,120 --> 01:26:48,840
I see that with your team. 
And, and I know that a lot of 

1555
01:26:48,840 --> 01:26:50,360
work has gone into making sure 
you do that. 

1556
01:26:50,360 --> 01:26:52,880
How, how do you make sure? 
And this is more like the ask to

1557
01:26:52,880 --> 01:26:55,600
hiring people because whenever I
speak to leaders, the biggest 

1558
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:57,280
challenge that they have is 
people. 

1559
01:26:57,760 --> 01:27:01,360
How have you found the best way 
to navigate that to able to make

1560
01:27:01,360 --> 01:27:03,800
sure that you have a world class
team around you? 

1561
01:27:05,400 --> 01:27:12,640
As an exec, we talk about you 
want you want people with 

1562
01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:21,080
optimism, energy, accountability
and this sense of kind of 

1563
01:27:21,080 --> 01:27:25,840
agency. 
And so for us, we, you know, our

1564
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:29,280
job is to make sure it's high 
support but high challenge. 

1565
01:27:29,680 --> 01:27:32,800
And so when I'm looking for 
people, I think I'm really open 

1566
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:35,760
minded in terms of where they've
come from. 

1567
01:27:36,120 --> 01:27:40,960
And because I've been less 
linear myself, I'm fascinated by

1568
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,000
people that have had interesting
journeys all like little side 

1569
01:27:44,000 --> 01:27:46,120
hustles. 
And you see that kind of like 

1570
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,200
grit and the entrepreneurial 
spirit. 

1571
01:27:48,480 --> 01:27:54,400
And that's why I love people who
are those uncertainty experts 

1572
01:27:55,160 --> 01:27:59,000
because if you've been through 
like a very linear kind of rigid

1573
01:27:59,000 --> 01:28:02,200
path, as soon as something goes 
wrong and it goes wrong all the 

1574
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:06,200
time, they are like. 
Panic Station. 

1575
01:28:06,320 --> 01:28:08,640
Don't know what to do. 
Whereas actually, if you've had 

1576
01:28:08,640 --> 01:28:11,080
a few kind of things like thrown
at you, you build up some 

1577
01:28:11,080 --> 01:28:14,600
resilience. 
It's like, you know what, we'll 

1578
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:17,000
just go around this way or OK, 
that didn't work. 

1579
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:18,480
What am I going to take from 
that? 

1580
01:28:19,080 --> 01:28:26,760
Where are we going now? 
And that ability to get stuff 

1581
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:32,080
done and out in public that 
might only be 70 or 80% there 

1582
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:35,280
because we're never ever going 
to achieve perfect, perfect. 

1583
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:40,320
I find that really hard because 
I have such a high expectation 

1584
01:28:40,320 --> 01:28:43,480
for myself and I'm really self 
critical of. 

1585
01:28:44,240 --> 01:28:48,280
I could have done that better, 
but it is that sense of the 

1586
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:54,200
momentum and the movement to do 
stuff I think is more important 

1587
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:59,440
and having that sort of upward 
spiral of momentum interesting 

1588
01:28:59,440 --> 01:29:01,840
and getting all of these things 
compounding. 

1589
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:05,720
And you're still allowed to hire
that because this is the thing 

1590
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:09,040
that terrifies me, that we're 
entering a world where HR tells 

1591
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:11,480
you who to hire and then finance
tells you you can't hire them 

1592
01:29:11,480 --> 01:29:16,760
anyway. 
And that business where I think 

1593
01:29:17,480 --> 01:29:19,680
you, you call them uncertainty 
experts. 

1594
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:22,920
A certain amount of recruitment 
should be deliberately 

1595
01:29:22,920 --> 01:29:25,840
randomized, you know, But the, 
the thing that worries me about 

1596
01:29:25,840 --> 01:29:30,280
all manner of things like AI is 
that the act of optimization 

1597
01:29:30,960 --> 01:29:35,480
brings with it uniformity. 
And there's and nobody ever 

1598
01:29:35,480 --> 01:29:40,360
notices the cost that actually 6
optimal hires who are very 

1599
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:45,040
similar aren't nearly as good 
as, you know, a slightly, you 

1600
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:48,440
know, a slightly less optimal 
group of hires who are 

1601
01:29:48,440 --> 01:29:51,720
complementary and different. 
I've, I think, I mean, you've, 

1602
01:29:51,880 --> 01:29:58,800
you know, the team, but I think 
I've got a really mixed group of

1603
01:29:59,240 --> 01:30:01,480
like senior leaders in my sort 
of team. 

1604
01:30:01,480 --> 01:30:05,120
And I love that so much. 
It makes it in some respects 

1605
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:09,720
harder because everyone's coming
from a different point of view, 

1606
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:12,520
but that's where the real 
genuine kind of magic is. 

1607
01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:14,360
And you do get the points of 
tension. 

1608
01:30:15,080 --> 01:30:20,560
But I've got, you know, a 
relatively new brand and 

1609
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,360
creative director that I wanted 
to bring in house because I'm 

1610
01:30:23,640 --> 01:30:30,120
such a believer in creativity 
and having that inside a formula

1611
01:30:30,120 --> 01:30:33,520
E. 
But he's come from fashion and I

1612
01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:34,200
love it. 
That's. 

1613
01:30:34,760 --> 01:30:38,360
Brilliant because if you've come
from racing, are we going to be 

1614
01:30:38,360 --> 01:30:40,040
too much? 
This is how things been done in 

1615
01:30:40,040 --> 01:30:43,000
racing and we've got brilliant 
people that have that race 

1616
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:47,000
experience. 
And so we can sort of understand

1617
01:30:47,000 --> 01:30:52,440
each other's perspectives. 
And it is it is about 

1618
01:30:52,880 --> 01:30:56,000
continuously doing that. 
And I think to to your question,

1619
01:30:56,440 --> 01:30:59,560
are we able to do that? 
I love the fact that we're a 

1620
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:06,840
relatively small organization 
and the fact that you're so 

1621
01:31:06,840 --> 01:31:12,720
young, it still has the 
entrepreneurial spirit to it 

1622
01:31:13,120 --> 01:31:15,760
whilst starting to get a little 
bit of kind of processing. 

1623
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:19,600
That's how to AI proof yourself,
by the way, is be small and 

1624
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:25,400
radical, not big in uniform 
because big in uniform is being 

1625
01:31:25,400 --> 01:31:27,680
commoditized. 
You know, the gains still, you 

1626
01:31:27,680 --> 01:31:31,280
know, the gains to sort of scale
and, and, you know, are 

1627
01:31:31,280 --> 01:31:34,440
diminishing. 
And I, and by the way, I mean, 

1628
01:31:34,440 --> 01:31:37,880
it's, I think it's also 
interesting career advice, which

1629
01:31:37,880 --> 01:31:41,000
is there is a natural tendency 
for people and we grew up with 

1630
01:31:41,000 --> 01:31:44,680
it, which is go and work first 
for a really big firm. 

1631
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:50,200
Well, yeah, that probably made 
sense in about 1993, you know, 

1632
01:31:50,200 --> 01:31:53,200
when there was actually a path 
and a, you know, reliable source

1633
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:56,640
of future employment and, you 
know, job security and people 

1634
01:31:56,640 --> 01:31:58,560
would invest in your training. 
And. 

1635
01:31:58,560 --> 01:32:02,920
And I'm not sure the opposite. 
I mean, kind of, you know, the 

1636
01:32:02,920 --> 01:32:04,200
opposite is probably true now 
in. 

1637
01:32:04,320 --> 01:32:08,800
Those small organizations, 
there'll be, there's always a 

1638
01:32:08,800 --> 01:32:11,360
job description that you'll 
read, but the reality is when 

1639
01:32:11,360 --> 01:32:13,200
you get inside, do you know 
what? 

1640
01:32:13,440 --> 01:32:15,920
It's nothing like that. 
You are doing everything. 

1641
01:32:15,920 --> 01:32:19,560
And I'm just as happy cleaning 
the coffee machine because it 

1642
01:32:19,560 --> 01:32:23,840
needs cleaning when you're in 
the office with people as I am 

1643
01:32:24,800 --> 01:32:27,960
coming and having a wonderful 
conversation with you guys to 

1644
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,160
being in the boardroom. 
It's like what you're exposed to

1645
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:35,240
and your opportunity is far, far
greater in that small 

1646
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:39,640
organization. 
And I think you're, you're 

1647
01:32:39,640 --> 01:32:43,280
learning and therefore 
experience that you get, you can

1648
01:32:43,280 --> 01:32:45,520
just do so much more in short 
periods of time. 

1649
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:48,720
Yeah. 
You know what? 

1650
01:32:48,760 --> 01:32:50,360
Absolutely lovely. 
So it's great. 

1651
01:32:50,360 --> 01:32:52,760
I could have this conversation 
for hours likely. 

1652
01:32:53,520 --> 01:32:55,640
You're incredible. 
Thank you so much for. 

1653
01:32:55,640 --> 01:32:57,080
I know you have a really busy 
schedule. 

1654
01:32:57,080 --> 01:32:59,840
Thank you so much for making 
some time for us and we'll have 

1655
01:32:59,840 --> 01:33:02,680
you here over and over again. 
So thank you for. 

1656
01:33:02,680 --> 01:33:04,680
Two of my favorite men outside 
of my husband. 

1657
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:05,880
Fantastic. 
There we go. 

1658
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:07,840
Like, yeah, fabulous. 
Oh, brilliant. 

1659
01:33:08,240 --> 01:33:09,040
That was amazing.