1
00:00:23,240 --> 00:00:25,800
Lottie, I'm really excited about
this episode. 

2
00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:30,000
Me and Rory always get together 
and we're always thinking about 

3
00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,240
who we can we bring in so that 
we can show the world how they 

4
00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:38,400
think slightly differently to 
the norm and how you're building

5
00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:40,880
some phenomenal stuff. 
And one of the first people on 

6
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:42,440
top of the list was yourself. 
Obviously we've. 

7
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:43,400
Worked. 
Say that to all the. 

8
00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:45,200
Guests. 
Oh, no, you can watch the 

9
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:46,880
previous episodes. 
This is the first time I've said

10
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:51,440
it, but I really wanted to speak
to you about longevity, right? 

11
00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,680
We talk about everybody is now 
thinking about being healthier. 

12
00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,080
Everyone's thinking about what 
they need to do to be able to 

13
00:00:57,280 --> 00:00:59,840
live a long, longer, happier 
life, right? 

14
00:00:59,880 --> 00:01:03,480
And with my own master, you guys
seem to be focusing in that 

15
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,920
space. 
So I wanted everybody to hear 

16
00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:08,120
what you've been up to. 
But before we get into all of 

17
00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,600
that, it'll be great for you to 
give a bit of an introduction of

18
00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:12,840
yourself or anybody that doesn't
know who you are or my own 

19
00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:14,440
master. 
It'll be great to give you the 

20
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,840
floor to let our audience know 
about what you've got going on. 

21
00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:20,040
Sure. 
So I'm Lottie White. 

22
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:24,480
I'm the founder of Myer Master. 
I am ex agency, I was MNC 

23
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,720
Saatchi for before I started my 
company. 

24
00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,120
And my master is kind of the 
home of recovery tech. 

25
00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:33,200
And our whole mission is how do 
we take all these incredible 

26
00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,400
technologies that are emerging, 
you know, ice baths, saunas, 

27
00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,800
hyperbaric chambers, and make 
them something that the everyday

28
00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,480
person can have in their home at
a price that they can actually 

29
00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,520
afford. 
And you know, the overall 

30
00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,880
mission is to help people become
1% better every day. 

31
00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,480
We've been working on that 
concept and how we roll it out. 

32
00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,800
And it's really exciting to wake
up every day and put something 

33
00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:57,400
out into the world which is 
genuinely helping people feel 

34
00:01:57,400 --> 00:01:59,280
better. 
And we're here, you know, from 

35
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:03,040
customers who are overcoming 
chemo through to Carlos Alcaraz,

36
00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,720
who was using our stuff at 
Wimbledon, through to the 

37
00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:09,240
everyday person who's really 
focused on how do I live a 

38
00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,800
longer, happier life. 
And so it's really exciting. 

39
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:13,920
We're scaling pretty fast. 
We're the 30th fastest growing 

40
00:02:13,920 --> 00:02:15,200
company in the country right 
now. 

41
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,560
And I'm, I'm excited about the 
mission. 

42
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,880
Yeah. 
So, so how did the journey 

43
00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,040
start? 
So I think a lot of the times 

44
00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,960
people kind of like drop into a 
brand scale story and they don't

45
00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,880
know how it started. 
You just like keep going. 

46
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:30,440
It's almost like a Christopher 
Nolan film. 

47
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,200
Right. 
It always starts in the middle 

48
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,960
of the action, right? 
But then the only time you hear 

49
00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:37,840
about the early days is years 
later. 

50
00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:41,840
You guys are currently building,
you're currently scaling, you're

51
00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,720
active within the business. 
It'll be great to hear about the

52
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,960
origin story and how it is 
running my O Master today. 

53
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:49,880
What does it feel like to be in 
the middle of the tornado? 

54
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:53,640
Yeah, tiring and stressful. 
That's what it's like to be in 

55
00:02:53,640 --> 00:02:56,920
the middle of the tornado. 
But I think two things. 

56
00:02:56,920 --> 00:02:59,720
I heard this thing the other 
day, which was, you know, a lot 

57
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,760
of people are like, want to 
start companies and they're 

58
00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,680
sitting there with this question
like, what's my passion? 

59
00:03:03,680 --> 00:03:05,880
Like what's the you get told? 
Like, you should just know your 

60
00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:07,560
passion. 
And I, I had somebody the other 

61
00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,760
day say, think about what you 
were obsessed with between the 

62
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,960
ages of 14 and 16 and do 
something to do with that. 

63
00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,760
And for me, all I did was play 
sports. 

64
00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:16,280
Like that's what I did all day 
long. 

65
00:03:16,920 --> 00:03:19,720
And then I went on to marry my 
husband Joe, who's a 

66
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:21,760
professional rugby player. 
He played for Harlequins and he 

67
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,040
played for England and he was 
out with an injury. 

68
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,640
He tore his Achilles a couple of
years ago and he was with his 

69
00:03:29,640 --> 00:03:31,080
time off. 
He was meant to be fit in my 

70
00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,560
kitchen and instead what he was 
doing was he put a stuck a 

71
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,280
literal different end onto the 
end of his B&Q drill and he 

72
00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,720
started using it as a massager 
on his calf. 

73
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,640
He took it into the Harlequin's 
changing room, which is 

74
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,720
obviously a professional sports 
environment where they have, you

75
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:52,720
know, elite physiotherapists and
people to treat their bodies. 

76
00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,200
He's using this B&Q drill in the
changing room. 

77
00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,720
All the lads are taking the 
absolute Mickey out of him. 

78
00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:00,560
He goes off to get treatment, 
comes back up the corridor and 

79
00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:05,040
all he's can hear is this coming
from the changing room and he 

80
00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,520
walks back in. 
Kyle Sinkler, Chris Robshaw, you

81
00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:11,960
know, some big rugby names are 
using it and they're offering 

82
00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,000
cash out of their wallets. 
And they said to him, Kyle 

83
00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,079
Sinkler said, Joe, I need this 
in my life for my back. 

84
00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:20,200
I'll give you £500 right now if 
you if you let me have it. 

85
00:04:20,519 --> 00:04:21,000
What? 
Yeah. 

86
00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,960
So he buys the. 
They clearly rugby players don't

87
00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:26,480
know much about how much drills 
cost well. 

88
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:28,880
Exactly. 
But oh, he was just earning too 

89
00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:29,960
much money. 
Yeah, exactly. 

90
00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,320
Yeah. 
But yeah, so we go back to BB 

91
00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:38,680
and Q and we buy like 20 more of
these drills and Joe sits in the

92
00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,960
spare room and like hacks the 
end off re puts another end on 

93
00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:43,680
and start selling them to all 
the rugby players. 

94
00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,040
It spreads to all the other 
teams in the league, it spreads 

95
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,000
to England. 
And we start just selling them 

96
00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:52,360
like via messages to different 
people and sending them out. 

97
00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,960
And and then we take 2 grand out
of our savings and go to the 

98
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,120
national cycling show at the XL 
and we're like, let's give it a 

99
00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,000
go and see if we can sell it to 
the general public. 

100
00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:05,640
And like, I hope no one who 
bought them is listening because

101
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:08,920
we haven't been sued today. 
And I really hope that that 

102
00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:12,320
doesn't happen. 
But yeah, that's that is the 

103
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:15,320
origin story. 
So I think when they say like an

104
00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:17,880
idea can come from anywhere, 
that's really true. 

105
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:20,880
So the principal use was it that
the rugby players were using it,

106
00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,080
they had a particular what back 
pain or they? 

107
00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:25,680
All have something right? 
Like of course, have some 

108
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:27,520
niggle. 
Inside cyclists going to have 

109
00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,640
this be the same I imagine. 
Have the same, you know, all 

110
00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:31,600
either in their shoulders or 
they've got something wrong with

111
00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,640
their knees or like, and you 
know, this was like at the very 

112
00:05:34,840 --> 00:05:36,960
when kind of massage guns 
weren't a thing right now 

113
00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:40,320
they're, you know, universal and
yeah, every that this was kind 

114
00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,880
of our core customer insight was
that everybody has a niggle, 

115
00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:44,240
right? 
Everyone has something that is 

116
00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:47,360
bothering them somehow now, and 
yeah, that's how we started. 

117
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,440
Obviously there's some 
professional athletes and you 

118
00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:55,640
said that they have professional
doctors and medical staff over 

119
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:57,680
there. 
Why didn't they have the right 

120
00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:01,280
equipment for these niggles? 
Well, I think what's interesting

121
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:05,560
and you know, has been very 
obvious in the rise of the 

122
00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,920
Wellness space like we was we 
started kind of playing around 

123
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,080
with this stuff in 2018, two 
1019 and a lot of the stuff 

124
00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,440
that's very accessible now just 
wasn't then. 

125
00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,840
It was the the reserve of they 
might have had it in the club 

126
00:06:16,840 --> 00:06:17,880
but they couldn't. 
Have afforded. 

127
00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,760
It at home, you know, they 
couldn't, they didn't have 

128
00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,400
something to treat themselves 
every night when they were 

129
00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:24,080
sitting on the sofa or Joe had 
this injury and he was being 

130
00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:27,240
sent for this treatment, this 
shock treatment. 

131
00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,040
He was being sent twice a week 
because it was costing the club 

132
00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,840
4 grand every time he went. 
He could only go twice a week 

133
00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,520
and he wanted to be doing 
something every day. 

134
00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:37,880
So it was kind of like this 
accessibility point, which is 

135
00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,280
the other core pillar of what 
we're doing, right? 

136
00:06:40,280 --> 00:06:42,480
It's like, how do we bring this 
into the home so everyone can 

137
00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:44,320
feel better every day? 
That's really interesting 

138
00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,800
because a lot of other times 
people have an idea of the 

139
00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:49,520
business they want to start, 
right? 

140
00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,360
And they put this plan together 
and then they try to force it so

141
00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:58,440
that people buy it. 
It seems that the blueprint we 

142
00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,600
obviously had Ben Francis here, 
you kind of know the audience 

143
00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:06,320
you want to serve, but you don't
really know the product until 

144
00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:09,600
people start paying, right? 
And it seems like you kind of. 

145
00:07:09,600 --> 00:07:12,080
Fell. 
Into the space. 

146
00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,240
But I also think we had already 
been discussing the fact that we

147
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:16,640
wanted to start a business, 
right? 

148
00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:20,320
So like we had planted the seed 
in our minds and we were open to

149
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,200
looking at problems. 
And then when you set that kind 

150
00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:26,200
of frame in your mind, you're, 
you're literally thinking I'm 

151
00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,200
suffering with this problem or 
this person I'm speaking to is 

152
00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:31,000
having this issue and it's about
solving problems, right? 

153
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:32,440
A. 
Surprising number of businesses 

154
00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,320
start actually almost by luck 
that you stumble into something 

155
00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:37,920
actually maybe it's not 
surprising. 

156
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,400
I mean, it's a sort of, you 
know, someone simply notices 

157
00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,360
effectively. 
Roger L Martin's very good on 

158
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,640
this. 
He always thinks that the three 

159
00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:51,000
things that kind of give you 
inspiration for a new strategy 

160
00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:55,520
or strategic direction are 
anomaly, analogy and resolve, a 

161
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,360
contradiction of his three 
things. 

162
00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:00,000
And actually when I, you know, I
thought this is quite 

163
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,720
interesting and when I looked at
it, nearly all the businesses 

164
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,920
you see that are successful have
basically happened on one of 

165
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:12,120
those three things. 
And it also seems that something

166
00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:15,520
goes wrong that you may think is
the worst thing to ever happen. 

167
00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:19,240
And within that, you're able to 
flip it into something positive,

168
00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:20,880
right? 
Because obviously there was an 

169
00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,920
injury. 
And then by trying to figure out

170
00:08:23,920 --> 00:08:28,120
a solution to that problem, 
you're able to figure out a gap 

171
00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:30,040
in the market that other people 
didn't see. 

172
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,760
And then it started this 
flywheel. 

173
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,159
At what point did you start to 
acknowledge that you're an 

174
00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:38,360
actual business and you're not 
just solving people's niggles? 

175
00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,799
Yeah, not for good. 
We were the noble solvers for 

176
00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,320
quite a while and both had big 
other jobs. 

177
00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,320
He was off playing for England. 
I was really into my AD career 

178
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,520
and we just did trade shows like
we did or we went to the end of 

179
00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,600
races every single weekend. 
We just like show up and try and

180
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,080
sell the thing. 
And although we probably took 

181
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,960
too long doing that, it's 
actually like what better 

182
00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,040
customer insight than being at 
the end of a triathlon or a 

183
00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,600
cycle race and literally 
spending the entire weekend 

184
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,160
talking face to face to your 
customer. 

185
00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:10,080
Like it's informed everything 
that we've gone on to do, right?

186
00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,960
But if you said to someone go 
and spend 2 years, you know, 

187
00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,000
every weekend talking to your 
customer in the cold, you might 

188
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:17,840
not be out for doing that. 
That's really interesting. 

189
00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:20,960
So you knew the space you wanted
to go into and then you found 

190
00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,280
the problem to solve and then 
you started to spend more 

191
00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,200
FaceTime with the consumers, 
which probably gave you some 

192
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,360
insight in terms of the kind of 
business that you need to be 

193
00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,640
creating. 
Roy talks a lot about the fact 

194
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,880
that a lot of senior business 
leaders don't spend time with 

195
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:38,800
the consumer. 
They spend more time in the 

196
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,440
boardroom and actually the best 
ideas, the best inspiration 

197
00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,680
comes from actually meeting your
customers at face value. 

198
00:09:45,680 --> 00:09:47,480
Do you still do that today? 
All the time. 

199
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,560
In fact, one of the things that 
I do really regularly is answer 

200
00:09:50,560 --> 00:09:54,000
the we have a phone line, right 
Customer phone line is answer 

201
00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,520
the phone line like a couple of 
days a month and it's like it 

202
00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,840
feels like a total waste of time
because you shouldn't be doing 

203
00:09:59,840 --> 00:10:00,520
more. 
No, no. 

204
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,800
It's free market research and 
also it's it's it's feedback. 

205
00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:05,960
It's fantastic. 
And you're like, Oh my God, do 

206
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,000
not realise that was an issue or
they literally say to you like, 

207
00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,600
I'd really love it if you did 
this though, because that would 

208
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:12,880
help me do X. 
And you're like, right, well, 

209
00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,840
that's the new product. 
You've got to go and. 

210
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,640
I can't remember which business 
it is, but there's one business 

211
00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:22,120
where they devote Monday 
morning, you know, this is a 

212
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,520
senior leadership team to 
analysing the complaints from 

213
00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:29,520
the previous week. 
And the argument is, you know, 

214
00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,760
some complaints are always going
to be, you know, complete 

215
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,400
outliers. 
But of course what they do by 

216
00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:38,320
doing that is they notice the 
recurring complaints and they 

217
00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,200
go, OK, if you've got a one off 
complaint, you know, maybe 

218
00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:43,520
there's nothing you can do. 
It's daft to try and legislate 

219
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,280
for that because some complaints
will always be of that nature. 

220
00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:50,480
But once you get a recurrence, 
then you've got to do something.

221
00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,520
Exactly that. 
It's weird I. 

222
00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,520
Remember which business it is 
because it struck me as it might

223
00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,360
be, I don't know if it's AO, but
it's it's a pretty large 

224
00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,080
business and I was kind of 
astonished, but very, very 

225
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,120
impressed by it as well. 
I think, I think too many people

226
00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:08,080
lose touch, you know, with that.
I don't think there's a better 

227
00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,360
thing you can be spending your 
time on than with the people who

228
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,840
are buying, using your product. 
Or the thing it gave us going to

229
00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:16,240
the shows was we were on the 
ground trying to sell the 

230
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,760
product and you hear the 
objections, you're like, no, I 

231
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,720
wouldn't buy that because it's 
too loud or I wouldn't do that 

232
00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,680
because it would just sit in the
cupboard and I don't understand 

233
00:11:23,680 --> 00:11:25,200
how to use it. 
OK, well, they're the things 

234
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,120
we've got to fix, or they're the
things we've got to address on 

235
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,400
our landing page, right? 
Like to help people overcome 

236
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:31,120
them, you understand? 
Someone said to me, I think on 

237
00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,960
Twitter, one of the best market 
research questions I've ever 

238
00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,880
heard, and it was they just 
bought something. 

239
00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:39,360
I can't remember what it was 
they bought. 

240
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:44,880
And with it arrived one 
question, which was what almost 

241
00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:46,760
stopped you from buying this 
today? 

242
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,360
Now the argument is, of course 
you don't have any data on the 

243
00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,000
people who didn't buy. 
Yeah. 

244
00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,880
But from the people who did buy,
getting data on what the kind of

245
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,880
sticking point might have been, 
EG it wouldn't derive in on time

246
00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,160
or whatever it may be. 
Such a quick fix, it's such. 

247
00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:02,960
A quick fix. 
Literally you come in there. 

248
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,800
Do you know I've worked on this 
for that? 

249
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:08,800
That question never occurred to 
me before, but it's a brilliant 

250
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,960
question. 
In other words, what what what 

251
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,760
was your near sticking point or 
what was your near deal breaker?

252
00:12:14,880 --> 00:12:18,040
Yeah, because what's a near deal
breaker for someone who buys is 

253
00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:20,400
probably a deal breaker for 
three people who didn't. 

254
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:22,720
Exactly same thing with the 
phone, by the way. 

255
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:30,280
It's so crazy how everybody's so
obsessed with like quantitative 

256
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,080
data, right? 
The numbers. 

257
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,640
And usually they base their 
decisions on people that are 

258
00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:37,840
already by, but then nobody 
looks at qualitative data. 

259
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,280
And a lot of the times people 
make that decision in a dark 

260
00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,200
room and they force into the 
world and they don't actually 

261
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:47,520
take the time to pay attention 
to whether people received it in

262
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:52,200
the way that they initially that
initial intention. 

263
00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,720
They don't realize why people 
don't buy. 

264
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,400
They don't realize actually they
don't even read their own 

265
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,200
comment section. 
There's certain brands that turn

266
00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:03,680
off the comment section. 
I find that insane because it 

267
00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,960
assumes that the whole value 
proposition that's provided by 

268
00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,480
social is merely to shout. 
But I actually think that the 

269
00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,040
the people that have been able 
to benefit the most in the 

270
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,200
modern day era are those that 
listen the best. 

271
00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,640
But we're still the data 
presented as an average, yeah. 

272
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,720
Which in a way is completely 
misleading because it's the 

273
00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:24,240
variance that matters. 
If you think about the whole 

274
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,080
existence of McDonald's was 
because Ray Kroc was selling 

275
00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,240
milkshake or thick shake 
machines and suddenly notices 

276
00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,120
this order from what was the 
first McDonald's run by the 

277
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,880
McDonald's brothers for 
something like 16 of these 

278
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:42,280
things, which is completely 
bizarre because you know, a 

279
00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,040
typical restaurant by one or 
possibly 2. 

280
00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:49,360
And his instinct absolutely 
perfectly was I have to find out

281
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,120
what the hell is going on here 
because no one's done this 

282
00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:54,440
before. 
And of course, the outlier in 

283
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,400
that case, the anomaly, as Roger
Martin would call it, eventually

284
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,160
was the whole decisive factor. 
You know, we've got something 

285
00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,360
here which is really unusual. 
Now what an average does is it 

286
00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,360
disguises it in the mass. 
Because an average. 

287
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,480
It's just an average. 
And so, you know, of the 

288
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,680
thousand orders that come in, 
one weird order for 16 doesn't 

289
00:14:13,680 --> 00:14:16,440
really affect the average. 
It's it's, it's buried. 

290
00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,880
But of course, he noticed this 
one completely freakish order 

291
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:23,360
and the entire thing, 
effectively the entire story of 

292
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,360
McDonald's, arose from what, 
Someone noticing one data point?

293
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,560
Yeah. 
By the time by the time it 

294
00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,840
starts influencing the wide 
average, it's too late. 

295
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,560
It means that. 
It's been more adopted, right? 

296
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,120
Yeah. 
So you're too late to the party 

297
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,000
now. 
Obviously we talked about 

298
00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:42,120
listening to the audience and 
being speaking to the audience 

299
00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,440
at face value allowed you to get
all these great insights. 

300
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:49,560
What is the biggest insight that
you got that you still think 

301
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:55,640
about today from those early 
days being there, giving people 

302
00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,680
products and getting their 
feedback. 

303
00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,320
Is there anything that still 
leaves lives with you today? 

304
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:04,360
That the wife makes every 
decision in the house, even if 

305
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,400
it is the man is completely 
buying it for himself. 

306
00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,040
This is interesting, isn't it? 
Because that was no one's ever 

307
00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,320
been able to test this, but even
when go you go back to the 1950s

308
00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,600
where typically the man might 
earn 100% or at least you know, 

309
00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:25,640
75% of household income, it was 
always stated that the majority 

310
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,440
of consumer decisions were made 
made by the wife. 

311
00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,040
It is, it was insane to me to 
watch it. 

312
00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:34,000
So we would be on our stand, you
know, trying to sell our stuff 

313
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:35,600
and people would come by the 
stand. 

314
00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,520
And if it was a woman and they 
fell in love with the thing, 

315
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:40,360
they just handed me the money 
and they bought it. 

316
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,080
And if it was a man and he was 
there by himself without his 

317
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,080
wife, 99% of the time he said, 
I'm sorry, I've just just got to

318
00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,280
go call my wife. 
I'll come back every like 

319
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,320
literally every single time he 
had to go and get permission 

320
00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:53,360
from his wife to spend money on 
this thing. 

321
00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,240
I I'm not joking. 
You it was always a joke about 

322
00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,880
northerners, wasn't it? 
That they gave their entire wage

323
00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,800
back into their wife who would 
then give them like 2 shillings 

324
00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:06,440
for beer money to spend. 
But in a weird way, I mean there

325
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,280
aren't. 
I mean, I always wonder about 

326
00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:10,800
this because one of the things I
noticed about the United States 

327
00:16:10,800 --> 00:16:13,800
is there's a, what you might 
call, there's also a bloke 

328
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,160
economy of things like gas 
barbecues, leaf blowing 

329
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,960
machines, speed boats, you know 
what I mean? 

330
00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,400
Bass fishing boats. 
This may be a European thing 

331
00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,320
that you know that it's a 
consumer matriarchy to some 

332
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,240
extent it. 
Really is and I mean, you know, 

333
00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:34,360
about 70% of our customer base 
is male and they're the people 

334
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,760
who are really passionate about 
it and they're looking at the, 

335
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:39,000
you know, technology and they're
getting into it and they. 

336
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,240
Love it. 
I mean man up British consumers,

337
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,440
you know, exercise a little bit 
of autonomy every now and then, 

338
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:46,920
you know what I mean? 
It's going in their garden and 

339
00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,400
it's going to take up space in 
the garden. 

340
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,640
She's got to be OK with that. 
You know, it's a pretty big 

341
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:52,320
purchase. 
She's got to be OK with that. 

342
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,480
And then it's like, can I 
persuade her to spend? 

343
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:56,000
Don't we start on the space 
thing? 

344
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,640
Kitchen implements, You know, I 
mean, Ninja make an ice cream 

345
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,320
maker that actually makes soft 
serve ice cream. 

346
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:04,920
Yeah. 
Now the reason I can't buy it 

347
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,319
isn't because I can't afford it 
is my wife would go bonkers 

348
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:10,280
about bloody kitchen surface. 
So you. 

349
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:14,160
Burn up. 
Seriously, my life wouldn't be 

350
00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,400
if I came home with a bloody 
kitchen with an ice cream, my 

351
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,040
life wouldn't be worth living. 
Yeah, there it is. 

352
00:17:20,079 --> 00:17:21,880
Yeah. 
And then how did you use that 

353
00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,880
insight to make the right like 
to transform the business? 

354
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:26,800
Like what? 
What changes did you make to be 

355
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,280
able to accommodate for that? 
Well, I think just understanding

356
00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:31,720
that we also had to talk to 
women. 

357
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,160
You know, we really had to talk 
to women, even they, if they 

358
00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,080
weren't the person who was going
to buy or if they weren't the 

359
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:39,880
person who you know, was going 
to use the product necessarily, 

360
00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:44,360
certainly at the start was that 
they had to understand and they 

361
00:17:44,360 --> 00:17:46,440
had to kind of fall in love with
it to a degree as well. 

362
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,000
Otherwise it just wasn't going 
to get over the line. 

363
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,000
This is why you need company 
cars, by the way, because then 

364
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,720
you can have a really bling ass 
car and say I didn't want all 

365
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,760
this stuff. 
The company's OK. 

366
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:58,360
You could. 
You'd never be allowed to buy 

367
00:17:58,360 --> 00:18:00,560
adaptive cruise control with 
your own money. 

368
00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:04,360
But no, I mean Sky, the sky 
marketing department in a less 

369
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:06,600
politically correct age. 
I'm not attributing it to the 

370
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,960
present Sky marketing department
back in the 90s used to call 

371
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:14,120
this the female handbrake. 
In other words, every bloke on 

372
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:18,120
the planet would have a full Sky
package and the obstacle to them

373
00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:20,560
reaching 100% penetration. 
Sports we don't. 

374
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:21,640
Use sports. 
Yeah, yeah. 

375
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:25,400
But by the way, the reason why I
end up getting Sky when I was 

376
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:27,480
younger was because my mom was 
hooked on Prison Break. 

377
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:28,640
Oh. 
I see. 

378
00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,000
So, so we it was first on 
Channel 5 course and then we 

379
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,840
watched it. 
The reason why I remember it is 

380
00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:35,240
because. 
Brilliant series. 

381
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:36,440
Oh, it's amazing. 
Sensational. 

382
00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,880
Season 1, it ended on the 
biggest cliffhanger ever. 

383
00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:40,840
And then my mom said we have to 
watch. 

384
00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,280
The rest of it? 
But if she didn't say yes, we're

385
00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,200
not getting it. 
Exactly. 

386
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,200
We're not getting it, but so. 
If you think about it, this is a

387
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,920
bit mischievous, but an awful I,
I was joking to someone in 

388
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:55,840
Belgium saying that if you had 
an all male planet, most blokes 

389
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,400
actually live in a Travelodge. 
You have an amazing car, OK, 

390
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,000
Travelodge, no tidying, right? 
You get a free really good 

391
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,880
breakfast, you've got a big TV 
and there's a bar in the 

392
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,960
evenings. 
OK, absolutely what we do. 

393
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,560
OK. 
And then we'd have a sort of 

394
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:11,960
like a Dodge Viper parked 
outside, right? 

395
00:19:12,360 --> 00:19:14,360
That's it, basically. 
Done, all done. 

396
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,320
Okay, yeah, totally happy. 
No, no further requirements of 

397
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,080
life. 
That means forget all that and 

398
00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:23,480
we probably wouldn't last very. 
Long. 

399
00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:27,800
That's what would happen. 
But but then when you think 

400
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,800
about it though, there's a lot 
of industries where women do 

401
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:34,520
drive the purchase decisions 
within the household and just, 

402
00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:37,440
they probably like in most 
industries, right? 

403
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,880
Because a lot of the times the 
reason why we wear nice things 

404
00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:43,480
or we do stuff. 
And, and I guess the selling 

405
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,960
factor for the women in the 
household for this is longevity,

406
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:49,160
right? 
Because you're talking about 

407
00:19:49,360 --> 00:19:52,200
prolonging your life and 
therefore living a healthier, 

408
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:54,920
longer life, which therefore 
improves the quality of the 

409
00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:56,080
household. 
That's how I would sell it 

410
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,160
anyway. 
But did you think that that 

411
00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,240
messaging or that focus on 
longevity had an influence on 

412
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,720
the female audience or on the 
consumer? 

413
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,200
Did they understand the wider 
world that you're building as 

414
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,160
opposed to just the products? 
Well, I think what's been 

415
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,480
interesting is the way that the 
Wellness industry has rapidly 

416
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,880
evolved and become part of kind 
of mainstream conversation. 

417
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,960
No one was really talking about 
longevity five years ago, you 

418
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,160
know, and when we started, we 
were selling to athletes or 

419
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,160
people who would go out and 
cycle 60 miles at the. 

420
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:28,880
Yeah. 
And, and like these kind of 

421
00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:30,680
hardcore amateurs, I would call 
them. 

422
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,840
And but the narrative, the 
conversation and the passion for

423
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,320
Wellness and the data points we 
watches and everything else have

424
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,600
made us, you know, Wellness 
obsessed as, as, you know, a 

425
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:44,960
consumer. 
So now the narrative has 

426
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:46,400
changed. 
Now if you say longevity to 

427
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,480
people, they're like, oh, yeah, 
if you said that to people kind 

428
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,360
of 5-6 years ago, it wasn't a 
kind of understood term in the 

429
00:20:51,360 --> 00:20:53,400
way that it is now. 
And I don't think people were 

430
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:54,680
thinking about it as they are 
now. 

431
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:58,560
And I think that a lot of people
are very rigid in the health 

432
00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,800
goals. 
It was all this obsession about 

433
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,200
being hyper productive and time 
management and all these 

434
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,760
different things. 
And I watched the a podcast with

435
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:08,760
Daniel Eck. 
It was the Founders podcast and 

436
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,120
he talked about his obsession 
with energy management, not 

437
00:21:12,120 --> 00:21:14,640
necessarily with time management
and productivity management. 

438
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,120
It seems that people are now 
starting to realize that it's 

439
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:21,800
not about how you use. 
It's not about what time you 

440
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,360
allocate to things. 
It's more about how do you make 

441
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,600
sure that the time that you use 
influences your energy levels in

442
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,760
the positive way. 
And obviously there's a, there's

443
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:32,680
a, there's a biological way to 
do that, right? 

444
00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:35,240
So, and your products are the 
ones that focus on how you 

445
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,640
actually physically feel 
healthier. 

446
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,040
And are there any particular 
products that you think that 

447
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,440
people are flocking for over 
others when from your consumer 

448
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:46,200
base? 
Yeah, I think that is so 

449
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,680
interesting. 
And I'm smiling because I was 

450
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:49,320
literally writing about this on 
the way here. 

451
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,400
I was writing about energy 
management for like an e-mail to

452
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,960
go out to our database and how 
Joe and I manage our energy. 

453
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,480
And it's everything from like 
the relationships you hold, 

454
00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,000
yeah, where you spend time with 
people, what you prioritise. 

455
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,160
Everything is about your energy,
right? 

456
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,120
In terms of the products, what's
been really surprising is, as I 

457
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,920
said, we launched this as a as 
an athlete recovery business. 

458
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,920
And so many people get in touch 
with us now to talk about this 

459
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,040
as their moment of mental 
clarity in the day and how the 

460
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,720
products we're we sell are 
helping them from a mental 

461
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,920
health perspective. 
Like an insane number of our 

462
00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,200
customers are not really using 
them for physical recovery, but 

463
00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,760
they're actually using them for 
mental health reasons basically.

464
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:32,480
And so I guess that comes back 
to you. 

465
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,600
Which products in particular in 
terms? 

466
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,760
Yeah, sorry, Karen. 
Which which products in 

467
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:39,320
particular do people find 
massively beneficial and. 

468
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,480
Particularly the ice baths. 
So how a lot of people use those

469
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,160
is it's 5 minutes in the morning
where a they're doing something 

470
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,640
difficult so they're proving to 
themselves at the start of the 

471
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,120
day, you know, eat the frog kind
of thing basically. 

472
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,800
And and the second thing is, you
know, there are a lot of 

473
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,600
benefits. 
They say it's like literally 

474
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,280
having six coffees when you get 
out of the ice bath, right? 

475
00:22:58,280 --> 00:22:59,760
That you. 
Also have some effect on 

476
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,280
anxiety, doesn't it? 
Exactly. 

477
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:03,160
Yeah, it helps to reduce 
anxiety. 

478
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,040
There's so many mental benefits 
to it. 

479
00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,680
And so that one, and then the 
second piece around the sauna, I

480
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,160
mean, there's actual data around
how it improves your bait brain 

481
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,080
health. 
But also for a lot of people, 

482
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,280
it's people's 20 minutes to shut
the door, have complete 

483
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,400
tranquility at the end of the 
day. 

484
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,680
So you know those two products 
in particular I think. 

485
00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,080
It's really interesting because 
when I everyone talks about 

486
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,560
habits, right and consistency, 
etcetera, but you realize that a

487
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,760
lot of people optimize for them 
at the most motivated state, not

488
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,000
for them when everything is just
like going to shit, right? 

489
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,640
And I, I, I've, I've found in my
own personal journeys that I now

490
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,600
have habits that because I have 
to control the downward spiral, 

491
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:48,600
right? 
The reason why a lot of people 

492
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,200
going to continue with whatever 
it is that they, they, they set 

493
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,560
out to do is because you'll put 
a goal to say that I need to do 

494
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,720
this seven days a week. 
And the week that you do it 6 

495
00:23:57,720 --> 00:23:59,320
times, you're like, Oh my God, 
I'm a failure. 

496
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,720
And then off, you're off, right.
And one thing that's really 

497
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,280
interesting about the energy 
management side is if you now 

498
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,360
optimize for energy management 
and not just productivity 

499
00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,680
management, you start to look at
context. 

500
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,040
What am I doing that day? 
When do I need energy? 

501
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,680
And how does my day need to be 
laid out to ensure that for that

502
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,520
moment in time at that most 
energy possible. 

503
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:24,040
For example, before, when we did
the first couple episodes of the

504
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,880
podcast, I would treat it like a
normal day, but I forgot that I 

505
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,480
needed an A different part of 
energy to be able to be present,

506
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,120
have a conversation. 
What I ate mattered. 

507
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,720
How much sleep I got mattered. 
I get destroyed by Rory in the 

508
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,920
podcast because like, if you're,
you're not switched on, you 

509
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,000
don't have enough sleep, you 
don't have enough food and 

510
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,960
you're you're you almost like 
structured your day to be ready 

511
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,600
for that optimal moment. 
It has a cartographic, A 

512
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,320
cartographical effect on the 
quality of the time that you 

513
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,520
spend during that period. 
So actually are most people 

514
00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:02,080
utilizing the the the the ice 
bath in the morning so that in 

515
00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,920
the evenings that the usual 
cycle or do some people flip it?

516
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,200
Are different people utilizing 
it differently? 

517
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:08,440
Is that just like the standard 
way? 

518
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,520
I think obviously, as as you 
pointed out, the thing about 

519
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,800
energy management is it's so 
personal and this is the problem

520
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,800
with kind of like broad brush 
pieces of advice is that 

521
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,680
everybody operates totally 
differently. 

522
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,320
They're kind of early morning, 
early riser versus late night. 

523
00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,320
Owl is a classic example. 
It's right. 

524
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,440
Some people are just more 
productive at 11:00 PM at night.

525
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,560
I'm most productive at 5:00 AM. 
So like I'm getting my ass 

526
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,800
Saturday at. 5:00 PM No, no. 
I mean, being a bit of an 

527
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,000
introvert, I my problem is that 
you stay, I stay up insanely 

528
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,120
late. 
I mean, if I go on holiday, I 

529
00:25:42,120 --> 00:25:44,680
effectively end up going to bed,
going to sleep at 4:00 in the 

530
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,880
morning, partly because I like 
that nighttime quiet so much 

531
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,560
that, in other words, you know, 
the phone doesn't ring. 

532
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,560
There are no interruptions. 
And the problem is it's fine if 

533
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,760
I can work from home the next 
day pretty much. 

534
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,480
You know, You know, I'm not 
saying stay up till 4:00 in the 

535
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:01,880
morning. 
Stay up till 2:00 in the morning

536
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,280
is fine or 1:00 in the morning 
is fine if you, you know, you 

537
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:07,000
get out of bed at 8:39. 
But if you've got to get into 

538
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,840
London, I find an absolute pain 
in the arse. 

539
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,160
Yeah, but it's very difficult. 
And, and my father was exactly 

540
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:13,360
the same. 
I mean, he, he he was 

541
00:26:13,360 --> 00:26:15,240
self-employed. 
He got up at about 10:00 and 

542
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,160
11:00 in the morning every day 
and would work, but he'd be 

543
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,520
working typically at sort of 
11:00 at night. 

544
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,600
And it's partly just the peace, 
you see, because there are no 

545
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,440
distractions. 
Mercifully. 

546
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,360
Yeah, but no. 
But equally, funnily enough, I 

547
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,080
mean, one of my arguments I was 
making the other day is I don't 

548
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,520
mind. 
I don't mind getting into London

549
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,520
at 7:00 in the morning because, 
yeah, it's effing early, but you

550
00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:39,920
get a really early ride in and 
you end up with two bonus hours.

551
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,760
Yeah, the really dumb time to 
get into work is 9:00. 

552
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:44,960
Yes, it is. 
Because it's it, you know, like 

553
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:46,840
basically either get in at 7 or 
get in at 11. 

554
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,160
Everything else you're just 
battling with everybody else. 

555
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,600
Everything goes wrong with the 
tube at that time because. 

556
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,480
It's from an energy management 
point of view. 

557
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,560
It's really stressful. 
It's really bloody stressful. 

558
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:56,840
It's completely right. 
Yeah. 

559
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:57,720
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

560
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,800
So you're basically coming into 
the office or wherever you're 

561
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,520
going stressed out. 
You're you've been frustrated 

562
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,080
because the tube has been 
delayed. 

563
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,880
All these things happen. 
And I really think that it's 

564
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:14,200
really important to make sure 
that clutter right is a, is a 

565
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,200
big. 
So I'm, I used to be one of 

566
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,640
those people that would just 
expect people to accept me for 

567
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,800
just being a bit of a mess right
all over. 

568
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,680
I'm just being creative, 
etcetera, etcetera. 

569
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:28,520
There's nothing worse than one 
of those creatives. 

570
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:29,680
Yes. 
OK. 

571
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:36,440
But I, I started to realize and,
and that really the clearer my 

572
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,800
space, the clearer the mind and 
the more I'm doing things in 

573
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,920
themes. 
So my Monday to Wednesday is 

574
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,400
completely different to my 
Thursdays and Fridays, right? 

575
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,280
That's clever if you can 
partition that, yeah. 

576
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,360
If you can start to almost say, 
OK, I basically say it between 

577
00:27:51,360 --> 00:27:53,520
Monday and Wednesday, I'm in 
mercenary. 

578
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:58,120
Yeah, yeah, I'm in like go mode.
Like I do it this way and then 

579
00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,680
on Thursdays and Fridays, the 
types of meetings that I have is

580
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,360
completely different, right? 
So I wake up early now not by 

581
00:28:04,360 --> 00:28:06,880
choice. 
It's because I had to do it to 

582
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,600
able to make sure that I have 
the right energy at the right 

583
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:09,760
time. 
If I want to be creative, I need

584
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,320
quiet. 
So I actually solved the most 

585
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:17,440
creative problems between around
5:00 to 9:00 in the morning. 

586
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,880
So that's when I get into like 
the real core of a problem. 

587
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,480
Then I go to the gym. 
Yeah. 

588
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,160
Then I do all my like, quick 
jobs like e-mail responses. 

589
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,600
And then from the afternoon, 
basically you can just have my 

590
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,480
time. 
I'm ready to connect, I'm ready 

591
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,720
to speak. 
But it took me a while to be 

592
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,160
able to understand myself. 
One of the. 

593
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,160
Greatest tricks is just only 
doing e-mail for certain 

594
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:37,560
proportions today. 
Yeah, I. 

595
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,960
Mean actually slowing down what 
it is frequently it polls the 

596
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,640
server so that you only get new 
emails every two hours. 

597
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:47,800
The the problem is then people 
use bloody e-mail to tell you 

598
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,360
the meeting's been cancelled. 
You know, I mean, actually, 

599
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,600
actually the whole system of, 
of, of messaging is a mess. 

600
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,360
Yeah, because everybody 
egotistically thinks that if 

601
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,520
they use WhatsApp or Facebook 
Messenger, you do too. 

602
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,480
Yeah. 
And that arrogant assumption 

603
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,280
that you will obviously use. 
So it's like, you know, I'm at 

604
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:09,880
the church, but there doesn't 
seem to be a a wedding 

605
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,040
happening. 
Did you not get my message on 

606
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:13,880
Wank chat? 
Yeah, you know what I mean? 

607
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:17,440
They're kind of the fun thing. 
I'm 60 years old, you know, for 

608
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,880
crying out loud, I'm not going 
to be on your dumb platform. 

609
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,280
And this, this business is 
unbelievably irritating. 

610
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,320
I mean, it's just so stupid. 
And actually I think we should 

611
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,800
go back to telegrams and things 
like that, where or where the 

612
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,800
postman comes once a day. 
Yeah. 

613
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,880
And you deal with it and that. 
That's it. 

614
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,680
That's about to get. 
Wagcha T-shirts. 

615
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,840
Actually I'm deep in a 
conversation with about, I'm not

616
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:42,720
joking, 50 other founders who 
are all saying WhatsApp is the 

617
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,280
most stressful thing in their 
life. 

618
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,600
It's awful. 
Just groups upon groups upon 

619
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,960
constantly being bombarded also.
You can't delegate by the way. 

620
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,360
Hang on. 
Because if you forward a 

621
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,240
WhatsApp message, it doesn't 
explain who you forwarded it 

622
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:55,160
from. 
Yeah, exactly. 

623
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,240
So I've then forward something 
about my wife would say, can you

624
00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,120
contact this person and they get
one? 

625
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,200
I have no idea who this is from.
It's just a so it's more work 

626
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:05,520
and and e-mail is appalling to 
begin with. 

627
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,400
And WhatsApp is worse than 
e-mail. 

628
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,880
So it was just quite an 
achievement really. 

629
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,160
And instantly, and Paul Graham 
makes this point. 

630
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,040
No one has attempted to improve 
e-mail significantly. 

631
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,560
I mean, it doesn't nest well, it
doesn't. 

632
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,280
Now, theoretically we should 
expect AI to solve this problem 

633
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,160
for us in some shape or form, 
but I'm not sure it will. 

634
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:26,880
I'm, I'm, I'm genuine. 
Some people, there's this thing 

635
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,440
called superhuman is that? 
Right, Sorry, sorry, helping 

636
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,760
this plug, there's a, there's a 
tool called Fixer, Yeah. 

637
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,080
Yeah. 
Fixer, I'm going to say not It's

638
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:37,440
not sponsor. 
It's not a sponsor of the 

639
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:38,760
podcast or anything. 
But not yet. 

640
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:41,120
Not yet. 
Where's the camera? 

641
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,320
Yeah, yeah. 
But it allows me to have drafts 

642
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,360
written. 
But like, so when I come to 

643
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,560
respond to emails, it's 
understood how I respond to 

644
00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:54,800
things. 
It's also plug in to our other 

645
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,800
chats across the business, so it
knows how to respond and gives 

646
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,560
it context. 
So now I'm only like editing 

647
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,200
like 10% of the time, but really
like, yeah, it makes because a 

648
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,720
lot of the e-mail responses are 
not like they don't need your 

649
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,760
thinking. 
It just needs you to to sign 

650
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,680
something off or move things on,
right? 

651
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,840
And you realize actually how 
many other times or how much 

652
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,040
time you spend thinking about a 
response because you've just 

653
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,440
come out of a different mindset.
You come into this e-mail and 

654
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,800
like, wait, hold on a second. 
What was that again? 

655
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:23,960
What meeting did we have? 
What, what happened in that 

656
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,880
session? 
And then you end up spending 

657
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,720
time to able to respond to a 
very quick e-mail. 

658
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,640
But if that context is already 
put together and you just have 

659
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,200
to basically approve and sign it
up, it's just saves you so much 

660
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,040
time. 
I've got a question about your 

661
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,040
habits, right? 
So you talked about you've 

662
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,800
understood your energy and how 
best to optimize your. 

663
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:42,600
Positioning of the week is 
really interesting by the way. 

664
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,240
Yes, but what about when you're 
leading A-Team? 

665
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,560
And what? 
Because you can't. 

666
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,800
Everybody has different ways of 
doing this, right? 

667
00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,520
So how do you juggle right? 
You might not want to talk to me

668
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:53,600
in the morning, but my best time
to talk to you is in the 

669
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:54,920
morning. 
Like how are you creating 

670
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,040
boundaries that work for 
everybody else as well? 

671
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:04,760
So I know that between 10:50, 
there's a slot there where I 

672
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,120
anybody can hijack it if it's 
important. 

673
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,200
But I'm also, if something is 
important, you can just call me,

674
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,600
right? 
So if I know that if I get a 

675
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,400
call, it's important and vetoes 
the whole system, you can't be 

676
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,600
very rigid. 
There's almost a process or 

677
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,040
system that works for like 60 to
80% of the time, which is 

678
00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,880
enough. 
But then when there's an 

679
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,800
emergency and you need me, just 
call me. 

680
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,840
I think that we forget that 
that's an option, right? 

681
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,960
So a lot of the time when we 
work with our partners, somebody

682
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,560
will be like, oh, I emailed them
last week. 

683
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,080
But I'm like, if this is 
important, that's why. 

684
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,200
Sorry. 
To add to the stress, we're on 

685
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,280
WhatsApp, right? 
And sometimes when there's 

686
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,400
certain things that's really, 
really important, just call the 

687
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,120
person. 
A lot of people hide behind 

688
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,360
text, right? 
And actually, we, we, when you 

689
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,960
think about how we've structured
our business, it's really about 

690
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:54,720
building trust. 
With the people. 

691
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:58,440
Working with and you, you have 
to understand how they work. 

692
00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,760
They have to understand how you 
work. 

693
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,000
And you obviously have a system 
for the majority of the time to 

694
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,600
limit everything being in chaos.
But they sometimes when you have

695
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,320
to go like outside and say, do 
you know what the inquisitive 

696
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,160
thing is to talk to this person 
at this time? 

697
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,680
I know Alf, you're doing this, 
but actually this is really 

698
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:16,320
important. 
And I know when I get a slack or

699
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,840
a message or something around 
that time, it's important for me

700
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:23,040
to, to, to, to pick that up. 
And I couldn't have done it two 

701
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,200
years ago, two years ago. 
You just had to be in it. 

702
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,560
But then if you're fortunate at.
The stage of where you're on the

703
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,240
journey, yeah. 
I think a lot of the times 

704
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,760
people give you advice on 
businesses not in the right 

705
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:35,440
season for your. 
Business 100% right. 

706
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,440
And I think that instead of 
having like sweeping statements 

707
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,080
of we should do this. 
And we actually spoke about 

708
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:42,600
this. 
And this is nicely comes into 

709
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,240
like this next topic of the 
conversation, which is you've 

710
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:49,040
gone from being like you found 
the problem, you speak to the 

711
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,080
consumers, you're now a 
business. 

712
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,400
How do you build the team? 
How do you set structure? 

713
00:33:55,400 --> 00:34:00,280
What is the journey beyond that 
point that like raw idea, we're 

714
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:01,880
just shifting numbers and run 
our business. 

715
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,760
What is that transition that you
guys made and how is the 

716
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:08,320
business right now? 
Yeah, OK, really quick potted 

717
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,360
history, because I think it's 
really important for people 

718
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:11,840
listening. 
You know, you listen to those 

719
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,600
podcasts of people and you're 
like, oh, they got from here to 

720
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,159
here. 
What about all the shit happened

721
00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:19,199
in between? 
So 2021, quit my job to start 

722
00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:23,159
the business, hired one 
employee, got to like, I don't 

723
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:28,280
know, 250K of revenue or 
something. 2022 raised a little 

724
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,719
bit of capital, not much Angel 
investment. 

725
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,080
Maybe like 300K of Angel 
investment thought Oh my God, 

726
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:39,320
this is loads of money. 
Hired like 8 people try to like 

727
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:46,080
launch on Amazon, do B to B, you
know, do E com be events, do all

728
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:48,719
the things like anyone who went 
launched in Selfridges, anyone 

729
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:50,120
who came to us with an 
opportunity. 

730
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:52,320
We took it because I thought 
that's just how you scale the 

731
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,800
business, right? 
More opportunity, more sales 

732
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,840
better. 
Obviously that didn't work 

733
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,280
because you cannot do all of 
those things with 250K and eight

734
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,000
people or you can't do them well
anyway, failed, spent all the 

735
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:09,600
cash basically was going. 
Which of those things succeeded?

736
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,920
Or would you say that none of 
them did because you spread it 

737
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:13,080
too thin? 
Spread it way too thin. 

738
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,120
Which would you have focused on 
if you'd have the time again? 

739
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,840
Well, then we had to focus on 
something because we were this 

740
00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,880
close to going bust. 
And so we restructured the team.

741
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,920
I had one guy, it was me and one
guy in the world's most awful 

742
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,080
box office with no windows, no 
heating, nothing. 

743
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,800
And we just said, I said, look, 
we've got to either break 

744
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,120
£1,000,000 this year or let's 
just call it a team. 

745
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,160
And me and him sat there and 
decided we're just going to go 

746
00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,600
all in on E com and we're going 
to go all in on meta ads, 

747
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,360
website meta ads. 
That's it. 

748
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,520
And we're going to become as 
good as we possibly can at those

749
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,200
two things. 
So it was us 2. 

750
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:53,000
And then in about April, we 
hired A videographer basically 

751
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,640
to make the ads. 
So we didn't have to outsource 

752
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,680
that anymore. 
And we broke like 1.2 million by

753
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,600
the end of the year. 
Yeah. 

754
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:06,520
And then 2024 we went on Dragons
Den in February, ended up doing 

755
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,720
like 5 million, but kept the 
team super lean. 

756
00:36:10,720 --> 00:36:13,840
There was three or four of us, 5
million, Yeah. 

757
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:18,720
And then on track to do like 8 
figures pretty much now and have

758
00:36:18,720 --> 00:36:21,320
still a pretty lean team, like 8
or 9 people. 

759
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,760
But I think probably the core 
lessons are, and I say this to 

760
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,800
founders all the time, I'm like,
just stop trying to do so many 

761
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:29,680
things. 
Like just do one thing and do it

762
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:32,120
really, really well. 
Like pick a channel, you know, 

763
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,360
pick one to two skews. 
You don't have to have a million

764
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:36,840
things. 
It's so distracting. 

765
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,600
Unless you've gone and raised, 
you know, a huge amount of 

766
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:40,760
money, then it's a different 
process. 

767
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,440
But if you're building something
from scratch and you're 

768
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,960
effectively bootstrapped, I 
think you stay focused and you 

769
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:46,960
can do a lot with a few talented
people. 

770
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,680
How do you maintain that 
discipline because now that 

771
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,440
you're obviously on the momentum
of growth, it is it because you 

772
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,920
remember? 
I'm deeply Scott, you've got 

773
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,840
post right stress from that 
period of like, oh God, this 

774
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:03,840
whole thing is. 
And also, you know, when you 

775
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,160
take money from people, you 
know, I know in the grand scheme

776
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:08,200
of things, it wasn't a huge 
amount of money, but I still 

777
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,840
took money from Angel investors,
real people who signed me 25 

778
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:16,280
grand or £10,000 or real money 
out of their bank accounts. 

779
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,280
And so, you know, when you're 
about to let people down because

780
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,320
you made all the wrong 
decisions, I think that kind of 

781
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,280
sharpens your focus, right? 
And you're like, I'm, I'm not 

782
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,520
going to let this happen. 
Yeah. 

783
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,240
I found it really interesting 
how in today's culture within 

784
00:37:30,240 --> 00:37:34,400
business, people celebrate when 
they are able to raise money 

785
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,840
right, which is really that's 
the start of a journey, but 

786
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:40,840
people celebrating like it's the
end of a journey. 

787
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,600
Well, it's a bit like when you 
get married, right? 

788
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:45,160
And like the biggest celebration
of your marriage, of your 

789
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,800
relationship is the day you get 
married. 

790
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,960
But really like the big 
celebration should be we we got 

791
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:52,760
through 10 years. 
Through 20 years. 

792
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,440
Interesting point that's. 
Way, way tougher than going and 

793
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,040
having a great celebration. 
I've always been very fascinated

794
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,560
by happily ever after. 
Yeah, right. 

795
00:38:01,720 --> 00:38:05,240
So you get to this moment and 
then it's happily ever after. 

796
00:38:05,240 --> 00:38:07,680
No one tells us. 
What do you do beyond this 

797
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:09,520
moment? 
Yeah, and you're about to get 

798
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,280
the trenches right? 
I've always said that if I was 

799
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:16,800
ever a film person, I would 
start a film that starts at the 

800
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,080
wedding. 
Yeah. 

801
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,160
And then it says and happily 
ever after. 

802
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,320
Then the film starts, right? 
I think that if more people knew

803
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:29,120
what happens at Happily Ever 
After, then we'll be more, we'll

804
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,680
have more happiness. 
After Four Weddings and a 

805
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,920
Funeral. 
Not for the funeral, honestly, 

806
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,280
but you could. 
But no, there's a very 

807
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:38,640
interesting point. 
Yeah. 

808
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,600
That that is the resolution 
point for so many films that 

809
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,200
it's, you know, it's a 
beginning, not an end. 

810
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:45,000
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

811
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,040
And so one of the daily 
constants that you know, are the

812
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:50,560
important things they need to 
focus on. 

813
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:55,440
Because I, I remember when I 
heard about focus intelligence, 

814
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,560
right? 
So everybody tells you about IQ,

815
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,560
a few people know about EQ, so 
emotional intelligence. 

816
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,480
Now there's this whole concept 
about focus intelligence, which 

817
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,920
is doing less things, but doing 
it better. 

818
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,160
Yeah. 
So how do you do that? 

819
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaking my language. 
How do you do that? 

820
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,560
Well, I think the reality is it 
is a daily battle for everybody 

821
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,560
because at the end of the day, 
like there's just so many or 

822
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:17,760
there are opportunities 
everywhere. 

823
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,600
Also, if you're an entrepreneur,
you get excited by opportunities

824
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:22,760
because that is the reason 
you're an entrepreneur to start 

825
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,320
with, right? 
That's why you're doing the 

826
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,560
thing you're doing. 
But I am really bullish on being

827
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,040
very clear like next year we're 
just doing two things, like the 

828
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:32,720
whole team is focused on two 
things. 

829
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,880
And if you are not working on 
one of those two things, don't 

830
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,800
be working on it. 
Like you shouldn't be touching 

831
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:39,120
it. 
And I think as a leader, you 

832
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:40,520
have to be that clear with your 
team. 

833
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,840
They need that level of 
direction. 

834
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,640
I appreciate, you know, it maybe
gets a little bit more complex 

835
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,920
as you get bigger. 
But you know, I was speaking to 

836
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,360
the CMO of Jones Rd. 
Beauty and he Cody, and he was 

837
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,320
saying the exact same thing. 
He's like, I don't know, they're

838
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,880
£200 million business or 
something. 

839
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,280
He's like, we're doing three 
things next year. 

840
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:59,920
That's it. 
Like, these are the three things

841
00:39:59,920 --> 00:40:02,280
that make us better, that will 
make us win everything else. 

842
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,080
Forget about it. 
Did you go back to the trade 

843
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,040
fair business at all? 
What have you? 

844
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,640
Have you abandoned that? 
Well, we haven't completely 

845
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,720
abandoned it. 
It's not there in our coats 

846
00:40:11,720 --> 00:40:13,160
every single weekend. 
Got it. 

847
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:14,040
Got it there. 
Fair enough. 

848
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,200
No, no. 
But try to make a habit of doing

849
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,640
it like a couple of times a year
to be on the ground, yeah. 

850
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,160
Because that is the one problem 
with putting it in matter, which

851
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,440
is you learn a lot less about 
your customers. 

852
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:25,320
Well, I mean, you do, but you 
don't. 

853
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,520
Don't OK, people. 
Are vocal on those comments 

854
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,320
section exactly as you 
mentioned? 

855
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:31,520
Interesting they are. 
Really talking to you. 

856
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:34,320
And the other thing is we're a 
very founder LED business, you 

857
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,440
know, because we went on Dragons
Den and the story and we're in 

858
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,000
our, all of our ads and we're 
out there. 

859
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,760
I mean, people every day write 
to me on LinkedIn and they say, 

860
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:45,560
I just want you to know I've had
a, you know, this is rare. 

861
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,880
Just to be clear, anyone who's 
thinking about buying a sauna 

862
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,840
from my monster, but they say, 
you know, I've had a terrible 

863
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,080
experience and this is what 
happened. 

864
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,880
Let me send you the e-mail 
chains of how this went down. 

865
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,080
And they're actually like, I 
just wanted you to know because 

866
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,320
like, I'm a fan of the business 
and I want you to get better. 

867
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,960
Was that an installation? 
That installation experience 

868
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:03,960
principally isn't. 
It that could be, it could be 

869
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,200
that or it could be like, you 
know, they had an objection to 

870
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,440
buying something and they didn't
get a quick enough response or, 

871
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:09,960
you know, whatever. 
It could be anything. 

872
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:13,080
But I think people are really 
vocal on social, arguably too 

873
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,720
vocal, right? 
They're very quick to be like in

874
00:41:15,720 --> 00:41:16,880
a way. 
They well, there's negativity, 

875
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,800
there's massive negativity pass 
because no one has a pretty good

876
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:22,440
experience ever bothers common. 
Never say anything, no. 

877
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,400
No, but that's really 
interesting because when we've 

878
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,200
spoke before, you mentioned the 
fact that Amazon is a massive 

879
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,880
competitor, right? 
So the role of brand, right? 

880
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,720
What? 
What role has brand played in 

881
00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,720
terms of setting my master apart
from the competitors that are 

882
00:41:39,720 --> 00:41:41,160
currently in the same market as 
you? 

883
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,320
Do you think that that's played 
a massive role? 

884
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,200
Your personal brands, your 
story, Dragon's Den? 

885
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,960
It'll be great to know what is 
the the thing that made you 

886
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:52,160
different to the masses. 
Yeah, I think this, I think 

887
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:53,880
storytelling is everything, 
right? 

888
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,520
I, I think we play in a world 
now where nobody's product is 

889
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,960
really different. 
You know, really, I mean, we 

890
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:01,800
make improvements to our 
product, we listen to our 

891
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,080
customers, we try to bring a 
great quality product to market 

892
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:05,800
and there are tweaks and things 
to it. 

893
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,240
But really who is coming out 
with a something that's totally 

894
00:42:09,240 --> 00:42:11,160
radically different? 
Nobody is doing that. 

895
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,160
And what people want is they 
want to feel something. 

896
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:16,120
You know, they want to feel 
something beyond buying a 

897
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,040
product and having the founder 
story, especially when you're at

898
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,280
the beginning of the journey and
you maybe don't have massive 

899
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:25,000
marketing budgets, it gives 
people a reason to believe in 

900
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,000
you over others. 
And if you take the state of 

901
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,680
players, OK, everybody's got a 
great product in this space. 

902
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,800
Just say, I mean, of course 
there are some tweaks and 

903
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,680
advantages, but it's like, then 
what am I getting behind? 

904
00:42:36,680 --> 00:42:37,880
I'm getting behind their 
mission. 

905
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,000
I'm getting behind their story. 
I'm getting behind who they are 

906
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,920
as people. 
I want to be aligned with those 

907
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,560
people. 
And I think that is something 

908
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,080
that everybody can leverage. 
That's why the barriers to entry

909
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,520
are so much lower now, right to 
start a business, because 

910
00:42:49,720 --> 00:42:51,680
everyone has a story and 
actually everybody has an 

911
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:54,640
audience, whether it's 100 
people or were obviously in the 

912
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:56,320
creative. 
Space before right, you're in 

913
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,160
the creative industry. 
What role did that play in terms

914
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,600
of knowing the importance of 
storytelling, the importance of 

915
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,560
branding? 
Did that play a role or was it 

916
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:10,240
just a necessity and it just 
instincts clicked in because you

917
00:43:10,240 --> 00:43:14,160
recognize that you couldn't go 
cash for cash against the 

918
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,920
competitors and just like leaned
into what worked. 

919
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:18,560
I think it would be great to 
understand whether that was 

920
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:21,960
premeditated or was that just 
like instincts for survival? 

921
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,520
Yeah, Well, I. 
I worked at agency, but my role 

922
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,840
was always like people, business
development, acquisitions. 

923
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,400
So it's actually much more 
commercial than it was created. 

924
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,520
And so I would say I have been 
not as bullish as I should, 

925
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,240
could have been uncreative, and 
I've been not as bullish as I 

926
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:41,880
should have been on 
storytelling. 

927
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:44,200
I think we could have done way, 
way more of it, actually. 

928
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,120
Yeah. 
But do you have a lot more of 

929
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:47,400
your journey to come? 
Right. 

930
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:48,720
Yeah. 
Well, that's why we're working 

931
00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:51,280
together, right, Because. 
It's like that's what we wanted 

932
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:53,960
to really think about as we 
enter the next stage. 

933
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:56,160
On the flip side, though, can I 
just add something? 

934
00:43:56,240 --> 00:44:00,320
There isn't a single person who 
we were competitive with four 

935
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:03,160
years ago in the UK that still 
exists, is not a single brand. 

936
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,240
Wow. 
Yeah, all of them have died in 

937
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:09,160
the time that we've been going. 
And I think it's almost because 

938
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,520
they were too bullish on brand. 
You know, they were too bullish 

939
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,960
on a lot of them were 
bootstrapped, right. 

940
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,360
There wasn't anyone who raised a
lot of money and going out and 

941
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:22,040
doing, you know, little pop ups 
with 100 people and, you know, 

942
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:25,240
doing these, sending out free 
products to anyone who, you 

943
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:28,000
know, would ask for it with any 
influence status. 

944
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,840
And they just died because 
commercially it wasn't viable 

945
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,680
and it wasn't scalable. 
And so actually we've probably 

946
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,960
helped of some of the brand 
activities you would talk about 

947
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,760
and we've been more British on 
performance. 

948
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,120
And I think that was the right 
decision to this point. 

949
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:49,280
I always say that. 
And here is almost I, I would 

950
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,560
say that this is a, a warning to
people within the creative 

951
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,360
industry as well. 
I always say this that people 

952
00:44:55,360 --> 00:45:01,040
focus on the nice to haves a 
little bit too early sometimes. 

953
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,080
Exactly. 
Really, if the goal is for a 

954
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:07,600
business to be around for a very
long time, you first need to get

955
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:09,600
past the survival stage. 
Exactly. 

956
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:13,040
You need the basics to be able 
to run as an organization. 

957
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,240
So exactly when you are coming 
up with a strategy, you should 

958
00:45:16,240 --> 00:45:20,040
be very are intentional about 
whether this is something that 

959
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,560
helps the Business Today, 
tomorrow or in the long term. 

960
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,960
Often than not when you look at 
something like paid media 

961
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:29,560
performance marketing, I often 
describe it as it feels like a 

962
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:33,120
salary, although it's very 
predictable. 

963
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,680
You know what you're going to 
get, you know it's going to come

964
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,680
in a in a very consistent 
manner. 

965
00:45:39,240 --> 00:45:41,280
And then when you go with 
community, which I think is your

966
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,720
insurance policy, that's to get 
out of jail free card when 

967
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:46,920
things go shit, right? 
Whereas I will criticize a lot 

968
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,320
of businesses. 
Becoming, you know, where 

969
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,080
effectively conversion becomes a
kind of fentanyl to which they 

970
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,080
become completely addicted as 
the only metric that matters. 

971
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:58,880
I'll happily criticize some 
businesses for that. 

972
00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,560
I wouldn't criticize any small 
business for focusing at the 

973
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,200
bottom of the funnel to begin 
with because, you know, 

974
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,040
ultimately, if you can't make 
that work, you can't make 

975
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,160
anything work at scale. 
Yeah, I think the Black Friday 

976
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:14,120
thing's a really good. 
Example because there's a lot of

977
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:18,080
small brands that are like we're
not participating because you 

978
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,080
know, we don't want to be seen 
as a brand that ever takes money

979
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,920
off or the quality. 
And I get the stance from like a

980
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,280
brand point of view, but the end
of the day, it's the biggest 

981
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,280
shopping moment of the entire 
year. 

982
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,160
And it's like, you know, at a 
small point, who are you to take

983
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,240
a stand to opt out of that? 
No one's going to know. 

984
00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:38,440
It's so like. 
You said to me it's. 

985
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:42,480
Like almost during that period, 
you feel the coffers to 

986
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:45,800
essentially have the budgets to 
do amazing brand things for the 

987
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:48,640
rest of the year, right. 
And so I think that's a really 

988
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,640
good example of sometimes brands
kind of prioritizing brand over 

989
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,800
keeping the business alive and 
healthy from a commercial 

990
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,960
standpoint, which allows you to 
do all of the other cool things 

991
00:46:57,960 --> 00:46:59,400
you wanna do from a brand point 
of view. 

992
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,360
A lot of some people live in 
echo chambers. 

993
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,720
Don't realise that the world is 
much bigger than what's I used 

994
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:07,800
to say, that the world's bigger 
than Blythe Valley, which is 

995
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:10,320
where Gym Shark was based. 
When you get outside, you 

996
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,200
realize that there's more people
doing different things. 

997
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,360
So you can't all kid yourself to
believe that you're at the 

998
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,920
center of everything. 
And I think that's what a lot of

999
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:21,000
people do is that they think 
that they're at the center of 

1000
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:22,960
everything. 
Decisions revolves around them. 

1001
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,960
But really the world doesn't 
really care, right? 

1002
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:28,040
And if you're not involved in 
the conversation, it just moves 

1003
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:30,680
along, yes, right, without you, 
which is really interesting. 

1004
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,000
So. 
Obviously Mar Masters going, you

1005
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,720
are now a leader. 
Describe your leadership style. 

1006
00:47:36,720 --> 00:47:39,080
How do you get the team bought 
into the brand? 

1007
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:40,960
How do you get the team bought 
into the mission? 

1008
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,400
It'll be great to know how you 
rally the troops to go on this 

1009
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:45,760
journey that you're going on 
right now. 

1010
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:50,920
High levels of integrity is. 
My number one thing, and I just 

1011
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,120
think it's so missing often in 
leadership and I experienced it 

1012
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,760
a lot when I was in agency. 
You know, you often learn the 

1013
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:59,320
most from the worst bosses that 
you have. 

1014
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,920
But for me, it's like I am all 
about transparency. 

1015
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,440
I don't hide anything from the 
team. 

1016
00:48:06,440 --> 00:48:08,600
I mean, they know every number, 
they know everything. 

1017
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,360
We're very authentic with what 
we're trying to do and very 

1018
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:14,800
honest about what we're trying 
to do. 

1019
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,520
And also, you know, we're 
genuinely excited about what 

1020
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,800
we're trying to build. 
You know, this for us is, isn't 

1021
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,840
about like how can we get exit 
and take cash off the table as 

1022
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:26,840
quickly as possible. 
It's like we're passionate about

1023
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:28,400
the mission. 
We love what we're building. 

1024
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,440
Of course it has to be 
commercially successful, but I 

1025
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,840
think people buy into 
authenticity and they buy into 

1026
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:36,360
integrity and when you have 
trust tested relationship, 

1027
00:48:36,720 --> 00:48:42,360
that's amazing. 
And and also I think they're 

1028
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:45,400
excited about it's, it's easier 
when you have momentum like we 

1029
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,120
have right now. 
We're growing really fast. 

1030
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,280
Of course you can get really 
excited about that. 

1031
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:50,520
It's like the wheels are 
turning. 

1032
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,520
There's so much. 
We just had the best month ever.

1033
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,680
It blew all of our targets. 
Everyone's like, oh wow, we did 

1034
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,240
that together and just giving 
people their flowers. 

1035
00:48:58,240 --> 00:49:01,120
You know, I think the, The thing
is none of the success is mine. 

1036
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,520
When you have a success, you 
give it to the team. 

1037
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,880
You're always shouting people 
out and when you have a failure 

1038
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,480
you it's always your fault and I
think that's a good philosophy 

1039
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,320
to live by. 
How many employees do you have 

1040
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,880
now? 
Maybe 12? 

1041
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,240
Do you think it's problematic 
that when you reach? 

1042
00:49:15,240 --> 00:49:19,080
A certain size or there's a way 
to go, yet it gets harder and 

1043
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:22,600
harder to have that complete 
openness and integrity and also,

1044
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,360
you know, of necessity. 
I always wonder about this, you 

1045
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:28,080
know, what size it because, you 
know, there's always a number, 

1046
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:32,280
the Dunbar number around 150, 
where everybody knows everybody 

1047
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,160
else and they also know how 
everybody relates to everybody 

1048
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,400
else. 
And you reach a certain size of 

1049
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:41,800
business where effectively you 
have to compartmentalize it. 

1050
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:44,080
But at that point you do lose 
something. 

1051
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:46,560
Yeah. 
Is that definitely true? 

1052
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,920
Do you always have to do that 
fundamentally? 

1053
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:52,280
It's in. 
I mean, the whole question of 

1054
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,360
team design is very interesting.
So Shopify, for example, I think

1055
00:49:57,360 --> 00:50:00,000
this may be also true of Octopus
Energy. 

1056
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:02,960
Their customer service teams 
tend to be 10 people. 

1057
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,040
Yeah, with, you know. 
They're charged with a. 

1058
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,520
Particular group of customers so
there's continuity, but the 

1059
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:14,880
argument is that when you have a
team of 10 for instance, people 

1060
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,960
feel bad free riding. 
In other words, no one bunks off

1061
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,280
I'll because they are actually 
pained by the idea of letting 

1062
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,120
the other nine people down. 
It's close enough. 

1063
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,440
The model that I think it was 
Chap called Toby Shannon used at

1064
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,760
Shopify was, he said there 
aren't, you know, there are 

1065
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,200
sport, there are sports where 
you have teams of five and there

1066
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,880
are sports where you have teams 
of 15, but there aren't any 

1067
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,760
sports where you get a team of 
55 or 60. 

1068
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,560
And he argued that you can 
achieve a kind of cohesion and 

1069
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:48,120
mutuality at that size, which 
doesn't necessarily scale up as 

1070
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,640
you get bigger. 
It's complicated because 

1071
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,640
obviously you need central 
specialisms and all that kind of

1072
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,640
thing as you get larger. 
And if you think about probably 

1073
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,000
the biggest. 
Bowling squad is American 

1074
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,360
football. 
They get to 4555, but they 

1075
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,760
operate as different teams. 
Yeah, so the defence, the 

1076
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:07,640
subteams, the subteams, the 
defence. 

1077
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,080
Are completely different. 
The offence completely different

1078
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:12,400
and also the special teams are 
completely different. 

1079
00:51:12,520 --> 00:51:15,040
So they are still part of the 
same team, but they operate as 

1080
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,440
micro teams. 
How I see it, especially with 

1081
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,680
modern day technology, the eye 
and everything that's happening.

1082
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:24,160
I, I do think that a lot of the 
reasons why people were just 

1083
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,360
hiring a lot of people was 
because of empire building, 

1084
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,960
right. 
I think that if clarity across 

1085
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:34,720
the business is prioritized and 
honesty and and systems are 

1086
00:51:34,720 --> 00:51:37,600
prioritized to ensure that you 
make the most of what you've 

1087
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:39,720
got. 
I, I think that the team at 

1088
00:51:39,720 --> 00:51:43,640
Telegram only have 50 people and
they're like a 12 billion or 

1089
00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:45,280
plus. 
I don't know the numbers like 

1090
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:50,040
company and apparently the the 
founder still you have no HR 

1091
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:52,080
department. 
Yeah, he does it all directly. 

1092
00:51:52,080 --> 00:51:54,160
It's because they set the 
business upfront like that in 

1093
00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,480
the first public because Energy 
has no HR department. 

1094
00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:58,760
Yeah. 
I'm bothered by HR because I 

1095
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:02,800
think it, it it creates an 
intermediation between one 

1096
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:07,760
employee and another, which is 
there a lot, there was an awful,

1097
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,880
an awful lot, for example, 
between a a more experienced and

1098
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,880
less experienced employee. 
You had that kind of master 

1099
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,920
apprentice relationship, which 
was, you know, very tacit. 

1100
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:21,320
It was very reciprocal, but you 
now have a world where no one 

1101
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:24,400
can actually fire anybody. 
Nobody can hire anybody, nobody 

1102
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,760
can promote anybody that the 
people you deal with day-to-day 

1103
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,760
have less and less control over 
your your future. 

1104
00:52:33,360 --> 00:52:39,520
And consequently, it's that 
actually in a sense that breaks 

1105
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,800
down the nature of a team 
because effectively you have 

1106
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,280
this sort of weird third party 
outside force which is 

1107
00:52:46,280 --> 00:52:48,280
responsible for all those 
decisions. 

1108
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,720
And so things that used to be 
within your gift or which you 

1109
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,800
could earn those decisions which
used to be taken by the people 

1110
00:52:56,800 --> 00:53:00,320
immediately around you who knew 
who you were day-to-day, and now

1111
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,480
being taken formulaically by 
someone based on some, you know,

1112
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,960
algorithm or principle, it's not
the same thing. 

1113
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:09,440
You basically don't want to have
roles. 

1114
00:53:10,240 --> 00:53:14,000
So I have this weird thing about
the word management, right? 

1115
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:18,160
I, I, I don't like roles that 
just obviously if you're a 

1116
00:53:18,160 --> 00:53:21,280
system lead, I, I prefer black 
belts, right? 

1117
00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:25,440
So I prefer what I found, 
especially what happens if a lot

1118
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:30,440
of startups they, they have a 
core team of people that help 

1119
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,120
them build that momentum. 
But now, because the corporation

1120
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,440
will says that you now have to 
become a manager in order to 

1121
00:53:36,440 --> 00:53:40,080
earn more, you now have a very 
great executor that you're 

1122
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:44,640
turning into and not so great 
manager because that's not their

1123
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:47,360
skill, that their skill is not 
working through people. 

1124
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:50,080
Their skill is I'm the best at 
doing this thing. 

1125
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,720
But because life gets in the 
way, I have bills to pay, I want

1126
00:53:53,720 --> 00:53:55,320
to get married, I want to do all
that kind of stuff. 

1127
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,040
I now have to change that and 
give that away because the 

1128
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:03,480
organization does not deem that 
to be a valuable skill. 

1129
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,160
Whereas I think that if people 
and it's never an an all 

1130
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,240
conversation. 
It's always an and conversation.

1131
00:54:09,240 --> 00:54:12,680
If you have a path of people 
that become the black belt of 

1132
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,680
the thing, going from white belt
to yellow belt to blue belt of 

1133
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:17,960
the thing, and they're getting 
compensated for the execution 

1134
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:19,720
skills. 
And then you have people that 

1135
00:54:19,720 --> 00:54:22,160
are great at coordinating and 
bringing people together. 

1136
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,600
Well, like project leaders as 
opposed to managers, right? 

1137
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:26,480
They're, they're getting the 
most out of people. 

1138
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,400
They're there to report the 
performance of things, are there

1139
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:32,080
to make sure that the, the, the,
the, there's no friction between

1140
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:35,160
the team and leadership. 
And that's a much better 

1141
00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:36,680
position. 
Otherwise you'll just have 

1142
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,600
people that are there trying to 
make themselves useful or trying

1143
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:42,360
to prove the value that they 
have. 

1144
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:44,760
And it actually ends up creating
bureaucracy. 

1145
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:47,080
Really what you want is clarity,
right? 

1146
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:49,520
And directness. 
And I feel like a lot of 

1147
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,560
businesses just do it because 
that's how we've always done it.

1148
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:53,680
It's exactly that. 
That's just the structure. 

1149
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:56,280
You start here and then you get 
promoted and then you become a 

1150
00:54:56,280 --> 00:54:58,640
manager. 
And so many people, A, don't 

1151
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:01,280
enjoy it and B, are not good at 
it, but they're amazing at their

1152
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,680
jobs. 
And I think why can't you create

1153
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,080
a structure where if that's your
thing and you want to do that 

1154
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:07,480
and you want to learn about 
that, great. 

1155
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,720
But if you're just really great 
at doing the thing that you're 

1156
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:12,600
great at, you should be allowed 
to progress and be rewarded 

1157
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:14,240
equally. 
See that in the tech world? 

1158
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,120
It's also strange because in 
many cases. 

1159
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,000
What you developed on the way up
as a practitioner is a very, 

1160
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,440
very unique skill. 
And then you effectively. 

1161
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:25,560
Put someone in. 
A managerial role which turns 

1162
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:29,680
the whole thing generic there's 
and there's no particular 

1163
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:32,080
correlation between someone's 
technical ability and a 

1164
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:36,720
specialist job and their 
managerial ability and it's a 

1165
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:40,480
fundamental flaw actually. 
Yeah the idea that I mean in a 

1166
00:55:40,480 --> 00:55:43,920
really really well run business 
where people knew what people 

1167
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,840
were worth it should be 
perfectly possible to earn 6 

1168
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,480
figures in a call centre yeah 
because the very best 

1169
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:51,600
practitioners there are that 
good. 

1170
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:53,360
Exactly. 
I come very now and then you 

1171
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:55,200
know I make quite a lot of calls
every now and then I. 

1172
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:58,600
You know, to customer service 
and every now and then you come 

1173
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:02,560
across something which is like a
10X yeah, OK, this person is 

1174
00:56:02,720 --> 00:56:05,560
genuinely 10 times better than I
expected yeah. 

1175
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,520
And the effect it then has on 
your loyalty and subsequent, you

1176
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,200
know, attitude towards that 
brand, yes, can be absolutely 

1177
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:13,120
transformative. 
Yeah. 

1178
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,560
And yet those jobs tend to be 
treated as if they're minimum 

1179
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:19,360
wage jobs, which is a nonsense. 
And there's a frontline with 

1180
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:20,360
your customer as well. 
Think. 

1181
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,880
About that, yeah. 
And, of course, salespeople. 

1182
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,760
Can sort of lay claim to the 
revenue they generate. 

1183
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,760
Yeah, because it's immediate, 
but a really good course percent

1184
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:33,000
a person, you could measure it, 
but it'd be quite time consuming

1185
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,520
because loyalty is obviously 
slower to measure than 

1186
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,720
acquisition is. 
And that seems to be a fairly 

1187
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:41,880
major distortion, which is we're
rewarding people not on the 

1188
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,240
value they create, but on their 
ability to lay claim to it. 

1189
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,400
Exactly. 
And that's, you know. 

1190
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:48,480
And that's what's. 
Interesting. 

1191
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,440
If you have a small team, 
everybody knows how valuable 

1192
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,960
someone is, even if there's no 
metric attached to that person's

1193
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:58,400
performance because they just 
go, I couldn't cope without X. 

1194
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:00,960
And then the whole thing becomes
formalized. 

1195
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,640
You need formalized sort of, you
know, bonus or reward 

1196
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:06,400
structures. 
And in in effect, it takes a 

1197
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,600
step back. 
It becomes stupider because you 

1198
00:57:09,600 --> 00:57:15,040
then suddenly only value someone
by what you can measure, which 

1199
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,560
in some cases of course leads 
people to game the system, or to

1200
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:21,760
pursue one particular metric you
know, to the point of insanity. 

1201
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,760
Or it can lead to all kinds of 
perverse outcomes, in fact. 

1202
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,000
Or to be selfish so you're not 
actually. 

1203
00:57:27,000 --> 00:57:30,840
Putting the goal of the 
organization of your individual 

1204
00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:33,160
goals right because you are 
rewarded on your individual 

1205
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:34,760
performance. 
So you will get people in 

1206
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,240
procurement who get a. 
Bonus for effectively choosing a

1207
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,600
lower cost supplier who aren't 
then held responsible for the 

1208
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,320
loss in customer satisfaction 
results. 

1209
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:44,800
You talk about the whole 
concept. 

1210
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,280
For being. 
Micro rational, but macro 

1211
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:50,080
stupid. 
That's when you get those 

1212
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:52,960
decisions. 
So within your narrow sphere. 

1213
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,480
Of responsibility, you're being 
perfectly rational in what 

1214
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:58,640
you're doing. 
But if you look at it within the

1215
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:01,480
wider interest of the business, 
it's it's actually daft. 

1216
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,120
I mean, the example I always 
give is, you know, a well known 

1217
00:58:04,120 --> 00:58:07,000
retailers car park in Seven, 
It's very prestigious, extremely

1218
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:08,480
good retail. 
It's Marks and Spencer. 

1219
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:13,080
And you know, don't. 
Get me wrong, I actually 

1220
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:14,400
venerate them as an 
organization. 

1221
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,960
I think they're absolutely 
brilliant, but they have, OK, 

1222
00:58:17,200 --> 00:58:19,480
they have this car park 
underneath the shop and it 

1223
00:58:19,480 --> 00:58:24,920
effectively finds people too 
readily because you drive in the

1224
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:28,200
number plate recognition clocks 
your arrival. 

1225
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:32,360
You then pay 5 minutes later 
after you've sorted out the app 

1226
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:34,560
and it tells you've got an hour 
left. 

1227
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,880
But as far as the ANPR is 
concerned, you've already used 5

1228
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,280
minutes of it between driving in
and paying. 

1229
00:58:40,600 --> 00:58:43,240
So people drive out, their app 
says you have 3 minutes left. 

1230
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:45,280
They then get fined because 
technically they they stayed for

1231
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:48,000
an hour and 2 minutes. 
Now it occurred to me that the 

1232
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,840
person who got the contract to 
run the car park, almost 

1233
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:53,920
certainly that was awarded by 
procurement. 

1234
00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:57,040
And of course the reason they 
can offer the best deal is 

1235
00:58:57,040 --> 00:58:59,360
precisely because of their 
propensity to find people, 

1236
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:00,960
because it's part of their whole
business model. 

1237
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:05,040
Now the person who appoints that
person has no responsibility for

1238
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:08,840
the fact that certain people are
driven batshit insane and stop 

1239
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,640
shopping there because that 
doesn't come within customer 

1240
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,760
satisfaction, doesn't come in 
with come within your remit 

1241
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,840
purely paying now and then. 
Of course, what's fascinating is

1242
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:21,800
in the lifts in the M&S, you 
then travel up and it says 

1243
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:24,480
please do not address any 
complaints about parking to 

1244
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,760
store staff. 
You must address them to the car

1245
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,480
park operator, which is the 
classic example of an 

1246
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,600
accountability sink, which is 
we've palmed this off. 

1247
00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:37,480
Now it's kind of, I don't know 
the legality as far as the 

1248
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,880
consumer is concerned, this is 
your car park. 

1249
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:42,760
You can't palm. 
It off by saying. 

1250
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:44,800
No, no, no. 
It's an independent operator 

1251
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:48,480
who's responsible because you 
chose the independent operator. 

1252
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,240
And so this kind of thing is 
insane, where effectively what 

1253
00:59:52,240 --> 00:59:55,000
you do, it's rather like, you 
know, a a retailer. 

1254
00:59:55,400 --> 01:00:00,400
This literally happened to me. 
Probably I I won't name them. 

1255
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,720
Yeah, go on. 
OK, OK. 

1256
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:08,480
Bought something, bought from 
Harvey Nichols and it arrived. 

1257
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:10,280
This wasn't me. 
It was my daughter Bought 

1258
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,040
something. 
It arrived without the belt. 

1259
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:15,200
And now we bought it from their.
Website. 

1260
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:19,760
But it was delivered from the 
manufacturer and it arrived 

1261
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,400
without the belt. 
And see, we get in touch with 

1262
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:24,880
the retailer who sold us this 
thing and they said, no, no, you

1263
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,640
have to take that up with the 
manufacturer, sorry. 

1264
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,640
Right now. 
Interestingly, the manufacturer,

1265
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,400
luckily my wife speaks fluent 
French because that's what she 

1266
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:35,840
studied at university. 
She was able to do all the 

1267
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:37,840
Shamma down this year, blah, 
blah, blah, blah, blah. 

1268
01:00:38,400 --> 01:00:41,240
But I mean, 95% of customers, 
you're requiring them to deal 

1269
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,000
with a French company in French 
to sort out this problem. 

1270
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,880
And this question of an 
accountability sync seems to be 

1271
01:00:47,880 --> 01:00:51,640
happening all over with larger 
organisations where effectively 

1272
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:54,360
it's a bit like Douglas Adams's 
conception of the someone else's

1273
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:56,640
problem field. 
Remember that there's a 

1274
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:58,280
wonderful thing in the 
Hitchhiker's Guide to the 

1275
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,920
Galaxy, which is a somebody 
else's problem field which 

1276
01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:04,240
renders things invisible because
it's not my problem. 

1277
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:08,480
And the extent to which 
organisations are doing this in 

1278
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,880
a way that seems perfectly 
reasonable to them, but which is

1279
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,000
literally deranged to the 
customer. 

1280
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:16,760
I mean, you know, absolutely, 
you know, you sold me this 

1281
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,840
thing, OK. 
And, and, you know, similarly, 

1282
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:23,080
you know, I, you know, I think 
kind of if you buy something 

1283
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:27,400
from a retailer, the retailer 
should take responsibility for 

1284
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:29,680
delivery. 
You shouldn't say, oh, it didn't

1285
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:31,840
arrive. 
You need to take it up with DHL.

1286
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:36,680
Let's not sorry. 
I mean, legally you may be in 

1287
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:38,800
the right there. 
I have no idea to be honest. 

1288
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:42,480
But fundamentally, no sane 
consumer will think that's a 

1289
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:44,800
reasonable way to behave. 
But somebody's done it 

1290
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:46,960
effectively to, you know, 
effectively create an 

1291
01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,640
accountability sync. 
Again, you know, how can we, how

1292
01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:52,880
can we create things so that as 
soon as it leaves our hands, we 

1293
01:01:52,880 --> 01:01:54,520
can wash our hands of the whole 
affair? 

1294
01:01:54,960 --> 01:01:56,600
And that seems to be happening 
more and more. 

1295
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:59,240
And of course, don't even 
mention the public sector there 

1296
01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,440
where, you know, which probably 
does the same thing but worse. 

1297
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:04,520
But that's not that's not to 
criticize. 

1298
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,480
You know, I'm sure the marketing
people of both those brands I've

1299
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:09,920
mentioned are absolutely 
admirable people doing the best 

1300
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,800
they possibly can and as far as 
I can see doing a very good job.

1301
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,360
But then these decisions are 
taken with no reference to 

1302
01:02:16,560 --> 01:02:20,440
marketing or to the customer. 
They're simply taken to optimize

1303
01:02:20,440 --> 01:02:24,040
some cost reduction approach. 
And effectively, these people 

1304
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:26,960
can get the credit for reducing 
the cost, but don't get the 

1305
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:30,160
blame for the destruction of 
long term customer value. 

1306
01:02:30,840 --> 01:02:33,320
And that's that. 
That's micro, you know, micro 

1307
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:35,240
intelligent macro, dumb. 
Yeah. 

1308
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:37,120
But really it comes back to 
customer. 

1309
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:40,200
Experience and how you really 
need something that sits across 

1310
01:02:40,200 --> 01:02:43,240
the entire organization. 
And so often it's just siloed, 

1311
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:44,880
right? 
And I guess the question as you 

1312
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,960
get bigger is how do you keep 
our little conversations that we

1313
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,440
had, you know, understand, how 
do you stay as close to that as 

1314
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,640
possible and make sure that it's
integrated or somebody's looking

1315
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:57,040
at it across the entire thing? 
And it's not like, right, well, 

1316
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,440
we sell the product, we ship the
product, we deal with the 

1317
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:02,800
customer. 
But then even when you talk 

1318
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:06,240
about breaking the business. 
Down to its core essence of I 

1319
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,040
remember a time when a gym 
shark, our names was the 

1320
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:11,560
department that we were looking 
after. 

1321
01:03:11,560 --> 01:03:14,840
So I was called social and Craig
was called e-mail and and you 

1322
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,640
could speak in a round table and
you can ask somebody a question 

1323
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:22,320
or get the answer. 
I was watching a podcast or I 

1324
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:25,640
was listening to a podcast, but 
I was watching it about Oracle 

1325
01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:28,960
and the fact that they talk 
about the fact that they would 

1326
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,160
ask three questions and it'll 
take months to to get the 

1327
01:03:31,160 --> 01:03:32,840
answers to those three 
questions, right? 

1328
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:35,240
Because you have to go through 
these different departments and 

1329
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,280
everything wasn't joined up and 
it took them 10 years to fix 

1330
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,280
that, right? 
So it's almost like the game is 

1331
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,440
when we've got something going 
that works and we can get 

1332
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:47,720
information instantly, where we 
can have communication 

1333
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:51,120
instantly, when we can figure 
out problems instantly, How do 

1334
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:55,320
we keep that as we grow? 
So basically the output or the 

1335
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:59,040
input of that and the output has
to stay the same as we grow to 

1336
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,240
keep us very simple to 
understand as a business and 

1337
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,720
keep it very frictionless to 
move and be able to attain 

1338
01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,880
information and be able to make 
sure that decisions get made 

1339
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:10,160
faster. 
Whereas really, as businesses go

1340
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:14,200
bigger, it's almost like making 
it more complicated is 

1341
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,400
supported. 
Yeah, which is weird. 

1342
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,480
Yeah, it's so weird. 
But also it's like. 

1343
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:22,560
To the point about clarity, if 
you are really clear as a 

1344
01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:25,360
business about what your 
customer experience philosophy 

1345
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:27,920
is, what is you know, what's the
stance on this? 

1346
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:29,960
Like how should our customer be 
treated? 

1347
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:33,800
What is the number one vision 
mission on this thing, then 

1348
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:36,680
everybody in the organization 
should be aligned to that thing.

1349
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,840
It's like I think that survives 
in family owned companies and I 

1350
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:41,280
think it. 
Survives very well and found a 

1351
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,840
LED company. 
Companies keeping that alive in 

1352
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:47,560
APLC where the preoccupation of 
the people at the top is no 

1353
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,760
longer their customers. 
In other words, they've 

1354
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:53,760
effectively shifted focus 
towards the investor community. 

1355
01:04:54,160 --> 01:04:57,520
And I've often argued, I don't 
think you can solve the problem,

1356
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,760
but it'll nice. 
Though it would be just by 

1357
01:04:59,760 --> 01:05:01,400
putting a marketing person on 
the board. 

1358
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:03,760
Good though that would be 
because they're still on their 

1359
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,440
own and they're still going to 
look like the weirdo if they 

1360
01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,680
raise marketing questions. 
I, I personally think that large

1361
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,920
organisations should have a 
customer board and I think it 

1362
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:16,640
should, you know, we obviously 
there should be shared 

1363
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:19,960
representation between the two 
boards, but effectively 

1364
01:05:20,280 --> 01:05:23,920
reserving some time for people 
at the centre of an organization

1365
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:27,000
who can resolve these conflicts 
between, you know, what 

1366
01:05:27,000 --> 01:05:29,840
procurement want, what marketing
want, for example. 

1367
01:05:30,240 --> 01:05:35,760
And having time each month to 
focus on those questions would 

1368
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,720
be an enormous leap forward. 
Because, you know, fundamentally

1369
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,280
board meetings have become 
ludicrously financialized. 

1370
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,880
They're about cost and as a 
result, they're about cost 

1371
01:05:44,880 --> 01:05:47,240
reduction. 
First, value creation takes a 

1372
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:50,920
back seat, and then we wonder 
why there's any economic growth 

1373
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:53,880
in a way you know. 
In other words, it's about 

1374
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,960
minimizing risk and cost, not 
maximizing opportunity. 

1375
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:00,600
And it's also about remembering 
why we're doing. 

1376
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:05,320
This in the 1st place, I think 
people lose the energy, the 

1377
01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,440
drive. 
We were speaking about this 

1378
01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:10,080
sweeping statement about the 
fact that the people that got 

1379
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:12,440
here will not be the people that
take you to the next direction. 

1380
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,480
No, it just means they have to 
play a different role. 

1381
01:06:14,840 --> 01:06:18,200
They're there to remind 
everybody coming in, why are we 

1382
01:06:18,200 --> 01:06:20,000
here? 
Why do we do things this way, 

1383
01:06:20,000 --> 01:06:24,600
why the customer matters to us. 
All those key founding team 

1384
01:06:24,600 --> 01:06:27,880
members, they may no longer have
the skill to be the best, the 

1385
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:32,440
CRM or whatever, but they are 
the extension of the founder and

1386
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,160
they so Alex Ferguson. 
I'm not a Manchester United fan.

1387
01:06:35,160 --> 01:06:36,680
I'm I'm an artist. 
Because of that, I'm just 

1388
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:39,600
disassociating myself. 
About you, yeah. 

1389
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:42,120
But I wasn't born in the UK. 
OK, fair enough. 

1390
01:06:42,120 --> 01:06:43,840
So yeah, I got my. 
Dad. 

1391
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:45,480
Honoree. 
I was like, I get it, I get it, 

1392
01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:47,480
it's a whole thing, right? 
Yeah, but. 

1393
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,440
Effectively, there were certain 
players like the Neville 

1394
01:06:50,440 --> 01:06:55,480
Brothers that were not 
necessarily in the team purely 

1395
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:58,800
because of that talent, but 
because there were his soldiers 

1396
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,760
on the pitch that set the 
culture right. 

1397
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:05,680
So this is the extension of him.
Here's how we operate on the 

1398
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,200
field. 
And they he knows that they will

1399
01:07:08,200 --> 01:07:11,840
make sure the message is clear 
amongst the players and in 

1400
01:07:11,840 --> 01:07:14,400
business, I think in business 
sometimes called the plant. 

1401
01:07:14,720 --> 01:07:18,080
Which is by analogy with an 
office plant, which is someone 

1402
01:07:18,080 --> 01:07:21,520
who effectively is, it's like a 
catalyst in chemistry. 

1403
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:24,760
They're, they're actually not 
for what they themselves do, but

1404
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,000
for the effect they have on the 
behaviour of everybody around 

1405
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:28,400
them. 
Very interesting, very 

1406
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:30,480
interesting conception, 
especially when you have a 

1407
01:07:30,480 --> 01:07:32,600
founder LED business or fast. 
Growing business when you have 

1408
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:35,280
people that have gone through 
the walls and seen the stories 

1409
01:07:35,520 --> 01:07:39,000
now if they leave, then the 
founder has to be the one to 

1410
01:07:39,400 --> 01:07:41,680
always vocalize this, which is 
impossible, right? 

1411
01:07:42,000 --> 01:07:45,720
So you actually have to say, all
right, these are the people that

1412
01:07:45,720 --> 01:07:48,560
we are building the foundation 
of this business in with. 

1413
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,920
Let's document that entire 
journey and let's make sure that

1414
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:55,720
everybody beyond this point that
comes in understands why we're 

1415
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:58,520
doing the way that we do it. 
This why we don't do certain 

1416
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:00,760
things or we're open to certain 
things that the thing that makes

1417
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,480
you different because at the end
of the day, when you think about

1418
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:05,880
the definition of a company, 
it's a collective of people. 

1419
01:08:06,320 --> 01:08:08,560
The collective of people that 
you have versus other people is 

1420
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,560
the thing that makes you 
different, which is why people 

1421
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,800
is a priority, not just 
externally of your business, 

1422
01:08:14,800 --> 01:08:17,680
which is a consumer even 
internally is the priority of 

1423
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:19,600
leadership, right? 
Because that's the things that 

1424
01:08:19,600 --> 01:08:22,040
make you different. 
And actually you should. 

1425
01:08:22,279 --> 01:08:25,120
I mean Ogilvy always. 
Did this you over optimize for 

1426
01:08:25,120 --> 01:08:29,800
staff retention really on the 
grounds that, you know, three 

1427
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,640
people doing a job for two years
is not the same as one person 

1428
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:36,160
being there for six years? 
You know, I mean, the cynical 

1429
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:38,960
view is always that only 1/3 of 
people in any company do all the

1430
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:41,120
work because a third of them 
have just arrived and don't know

1431
01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:43,040
what they're doing and a third 
of them are planning to leave. 

1432
01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:46,880
So they don't care that that's 
probably a bit extreme, but I 

1433
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:50,800
would agree that actually, you 
know, umm, uh, length of tenure 

1434
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:53,279
matters. 
I mean, this is another thing 

1435
01:08:53,279 --> 01:08:55,560
because what we try and do is we
try and formalise everything. 

1436
01:08:55,560 --> 01:08:58,680
We try and make it rule based 
and then you end up effectively 

1437
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,200
treating people as units of 
production and the the idea 

1438
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,399
being that they're fungible 
because all we need is someone 

1439
01:09:05,399 --> 01:09:07,439
to perform this tightly defined 
function. 

1440
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,359
But nearly all people have. 
It's the doorman fallacy. 

1441
01:09:10,359 --> 01:09:11,640
You may Remember Me talking 
about this. 

1442
01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,720
Nearly everybody has a value and
a function that goes way beyond 

1443
01:09:15,720 --> 01:09:19,399
what their job description, you 
know, tributes to them as their 

1444
01:09:19,800 --> 01:09:22,600
you know, you have a core 
responsibility, but you know, 

1445
01:09:22,760 --> 01:09:26,240
anybody actually doing their job
will spend a third of their time

1446
01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:30,560
devoted to things beyond their 
absolutely narrowly defined 

1447
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:34,319
role. 
Role Fred Fred about who worked 

1448
01:09:34,319 --> 01:09:36,800
for Goldman Sachs. 
So he said the, the really 

1449
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:41,120
magical thing about it, what 
made it different was that he 

1450
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:44,319
said everywhere else, you know, 
if you got a request from the 

1451
01:09:44,319 --> 01:09:48,000
Uruguay office, you'd kind of 
go, well, I mean, there's 

1452
01:09:48,000 --> 01:09:49,680
nothing in it for us. 
Let's just get this off our 

1453
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:51,479
desk. 
Are they going to pay us? 

1454
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,080
Goldman Sachs? 
No one asked those questions. 

1455
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:58,240
If someone asked for help, you 
helped, and that admittedly. 

1456
01:09:58,360 --> 01:09:59,920
Probably. 
The guy who heads the Uruguay 

1457
01:09:59,920 --> 01:10:02,360
office of Goldman Sachs is going
to be the Minister of Finance 

1458
01:10:02,360 --> 01:10:05,360
six months later, so it pays to 
keep them sweet. 

1459
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:09,800
But nonetheless, there was this 
automatic culture that by 

1460
01:10:09,800 --> 01:10:12,040
default you made yourself 
useful. 

1461
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:15,400
And so it was, you know, it's 
very interesting because we, we 

1462
01:10:15,400 --> 01:10:17,240
don't think of those 
organizations, you know, 

1463
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:20,080
particularly not a large 
investment bank as being 

1464
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:24,400
socialistic because obviously as
an entity they're deeply 

1465
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:26,800
capitalistic. 
But within the organization 

1466
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:29,640
they're actually surprisingly 
socialistic. 

1467
01:10:29,640 --> 01:10:32,920
You know, there's an enormous 
amount of, you know, sacrificing

1468
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:34,640
self-interest for collective 
good. 

1469
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:36,920
It pays to understand people 
because of the common. 

1470
01:10:36,920 --> 01:10:39,880
Denominator in everything that 
we do, right? 

1471
01:10:40,200 --> 01:10:42,160
And so, Lottie, we've come to 
time. 

1472
01:10:43,480 --> 01:10:47,560
Obviously, I'm going to ask you 
to do the phenomenal task of 

1473
01:10:47,560 --> 01:10:50,320
summarizing your biggest lesson 
throughout your journey right 

1474
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,200
now. 
And if there was a parting 

1475
01:10:52,200 --> 01:10:55,760
message to send to entrepreneurs
that want to do the same thing 

1476
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:59,440
or go on to their journey or 
solve a major problem, what 

1477
01:10:59,440 --> 01:11:01,600
would be the number one advice 
that you give them? 

1478
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:05,440
I'm going to do the advice. 
Piece first, the number one 

1479
01:11:05,440 --> 01:11:08,600
piece of advice is that the 
barriers to entry to start 

1480
01:11:08,600 --> 01:11:12,320
something have never been lower 
and the cost of failure, I think

1481
01:11:12,320 --> 01:11:16,320
has never been less like it's OK
to start to try and to fail and 

1482
01:11:16,320 --> 01:11:18,520
to start again. 
And you should totally embrace 

1483
01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:21,240
that philosophy and be totally 
unafraid of giving something a 

1484
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:23,080
go. 
Because I truly believe that 

1485
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:25,480
entrepreneurship is one of the 
most incredible things you can 

1486
01:11:25,480 --> 01:11:28,320
do in your lifetime to create 
something you believe in, to 

1487
01:11:28,320 --> 01:11:30,240
bring other people along with 
you on the journey. 

1488
01:11:30,240 --> 01:11:33,840
So just start, give it a go, try
and be totally open to failing 

1489
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:37,240
and starting again. 
And the second thing was what 

1490
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:39,080
was the second thing? 
The first thing That is my 

1491
01:11:39,080 --> 01:11:42,040
second thing. 
Well, that's that's. 

1492
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:43,680
You basically answered both. 
All right. 

1493
01:11:43,840 --> 01:11:44,720
Yeah, I think. 
You did, yeah. 

1494
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:47,640
I mean one of the things. 
That sort of rescuing, I think 

1495
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:51,720
the UK economy is this 
extraordinary change even in my 

1496
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:55,640
lifetime, which will be, by the 
way, even more important because

1497
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:58,960
we've created 50% of the 
population become university 

1498
01:11:58,960 --> 01:12:02,120
graduates and they're simply 
aren't the graduate entry level 

1499
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:04,720
jobs for them anymore. 
And there will probably be even 

1500
01:12:04,720 --> 01:12:07,280
fewer of those. 
But the extent to which 

1501
01:12:07,440 --> 01:12:12,120
entrepreneurialism in general, 
uh, has enjoyed this, you know, 

1502
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:16,360
reputational, well, I think it's
probably a revival, you know, 

1503
01:12:16,480 --> 01:12:19,040
but it, it was considered, you 
know, my father always said when

1504
01:12:19,040 --> 01:12:22,520
he went to university in the 
1950s, you were expected to go. 

1505
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,720
It was, bear in mind, this is 
1953. 

1506
01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,520
It was sort of law, medicine, 
church. 

1507
01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:31,000
There were, you know, civil 
service, military was acceptable

1508
01:12:31,000 --> 01:12:32,760
back then. 
But you went into one of these 

1509
01:12:32,760 --> 01:12:35,560
sort of five socially approved 
activities. 

1510
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:39,160
And, you know, if you went and 
did something interesting, it 

1511
01:12:39,160 --> 01:12:41,400
was kind of indulged, but you 
were thought to, you know, 

1512
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,720
slightly lost the plot. 
And that's completely, 

1513
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:45,760
completely changing. 
And I think it's really, really 

1514
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,000
important. 
And hopefully we'll also acquire

1515
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:52,000
this it's OK to fail mentality, 
which the US has had for 

1516
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:55,680
probably quite a few more years.
Yeah, there's more problems to 

1517
01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:57,240
solve than those. 5. 
Professions. 

1518
01:12:57,640 --> 01:12:59,560
Exactly. 
There's more problems to solve. 

1519
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:02,000
Nasim. 
Talib put it beautifully, he 

1520
01:13:02,000 --> 01:13:03,640
said. 
That actually an entrepreneur 

1521
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:07,400
who fails in business is no more
a failure than a soldier who 

1522
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:10,000
dies in battle. 
It's part of the overall 

1523
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:12,120
process. 
It's part of the process, which 

1524
01:13:12,120 --> 01:13:13,600
more people. 
Were comfortable with that like 

1525
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:16,600
failing is totally part of the 
process yeah I'm so comfortable 

1526
01:13:16,600 --> 01:13:21,360
with it now I'm like failing all
the time 11 weird marketing how?

1527
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:22,840
Much. 
Are you starting to gain 

1528
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:25,160
business through referral? 
Yeah, Yeah. 

1529
01:13:25,200 --> 01:13:26,640
A lot of our businesses, a lot 
of it. 

1530
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:28,000
Through that's that's really 
interesting. 

1531
01:13:28,000 --> 01:13:29,760
Have you got? 
Have you found ways to amplify 

1532
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:31,320
it? 
Yeah, but obviously I don't. 

1533
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,320
I wouldn't take ice baths in 
public. 

1534
01:13:33,320 --> 01:13:36,560
But but people just you have got
products which are highly 

1535
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:37,600
talkable. 
Yeah. 

1536
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,880
And it's very cult like, right? 
It's like it's a bit like they 

1537
01:13:40,880 --> 01:13:43,040
say you. 
I think I heard this on a why 

1538
01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:45,040
you not he just killed me with 
that. 

1539
01:13:45,360 --> 01:13:47,200
You wouldn't. 
Take an ice bath in public. 

1540
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:50,360
Well, actually they do, but I 
mean. 

1541
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:51,760
They do a bit. 
Yeah, yeah. 

1542
01:13:52,160 --> 01:13:53,640
You know, it's. 
One of those things that people 

1543
01:13:53,640 --> 01:13:55,400
love to. 
Tell you about it's like, you 

1544
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:57,840
know, ice bath and I did it for 
this long and I did it at this 

1545
01:13:57,840 --> 01:14:01,400
temperature and it's a bit of a 
like, you know, when summons are

1546
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:03,320
vegan, don't. 
Worry they'll tell you soon 

1547
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,680
enough exactly yeah, they love 
to tell you and so you know 

1548
01:14:06,680 --> 01:14:08,320
there's. 
Not a lot we need to do to 

1549
01:14:08,320 --> 01:14:10,520
encourage people to talk about 
it and to share it. 

1550
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,240
And that's really exciting thing
I think that we can tap much 

1551
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,000
weather into as well. 
That's fascinating. 

1552
01:14:15,000 --> 01:14:16,120
Yeah. 
It's the longest you've lasted 

1553
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:18,040
an. 
Ice bath. 3 minutes. 

1554
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:20,080
Oh yeah, I. 
Can't compete with that, yeah. 

1555
01:14:20,560 --> 01:14:22,040
So is that what? 
What? 

1556
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:23,600
What's? 
What's the target length of 

1557
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:25,000
time? 
Well, you don't wanna do any 

1558
01:14:25,000 --> 01:14:27,720
less than 60 seconds, really. 
But you, I, you've gotta work up

1559
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:29,160
to it as well. 
Got it, got it. 

1560
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:31,560
So don't be like hanging out. 
Too long if it's your first. 

1561
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:32,480
Time. 
You know what I'm saying? 

1562
01:14:32,640 --> 01:14:36,440
Disclaimer yeah, you let you 
won't see me doing things but. 

1563
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:39,480
Lassie, thank you. 
You've been incredible. 

1564
01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:41,320
Fantastic. 
Thank you. 

1565
01:14:41,360 --> 01:14:43,280
And this is one of my favourite 
episodes. 

1566
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:47,520
Again, all the guests. 
Do you get the female handbrake 

1567
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:49,360
on ice? 
Baths and saunas as well. 

1568
01:14:49,800 --> 01:14:52,280
Yeah, yeah, because there's one.
Obstacle. 

1569
01:14:52,760 --> 01:14:55,120
Do you convert a room into a 
sauna or is it just a 

1570
01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:57,680
standalone? 
Or you can just put it in your 

1571
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:00,000
garden as a you just. 
Put it in the garden as a truck.

1572
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:01,560
Yeah, there's. 
A fantastic. 

1573
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:02,880
Standalone thing. 
Interesting. 

1574
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:04,480
Yeah, OK. 
Episode done.