1 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,880 So of course I'm trying to get. I will actually follow Alfred's 2 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,520 policy of asking the guests to introduce herself to a large 3 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,840 extent, except to say it's great honour to welcome Chief 4 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,000 Marketing Officer of Zurich, Connie Culture, who has an 5 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,560 extraordinary coincidence with me in that I think you nearly 6 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,040 became a teacher and nearly became a journalist. 7 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,720 I I also trained as a teacher, nearly became a journalist and 8 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:49,840 ended up in advertising. So we've got that. 9 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:54,320 We've got that in common, by the way, with your own introduction. 10 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:57,520 Delighted to have you here. I'm delighted to be here. 11 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,080 Thank you very much for the invitation and the introduction. 12 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:02,920 Yeah, it is. It is true. 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,920 I started out my career as a teacher but soon moved into 14 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,120 marketing. I've been working in marketing 15 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:15,440 for almost 40 years, many of the years in the Lego Group in 16 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,280 Denmark and in the UK, all in global roles. 17 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:22,440 And then after that in in Zurich, one of the biggest 18 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,120 insurance companies in the world. 19 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,560 And I'm really a customer person at heart. 20 00:01:27,960 --> 00:01:33,080 I care a lot about developing things for and delivering to 21 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:35,840 customers. That's what drives me, that's 22 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:38,360 what gets me up in the morning and that's what I'm excited 23 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,000 about. This is fantastic. 24 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,280 So one of your great focuses, I think you're at Lego in multiple 25 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:45,200 roles, weren't you? You? 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,680 It wasn't only in the marketing role, you were also in film 27 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,040 making. Almost an extraordinary plethora 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,920 of different roles within what is a fantastic marketing 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,280 organization obviously, but so much more than that as well. 30 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,840 Tell us a bit about that and particularly the film making. 31 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,000 I'm intrigued by that. Yeah, I was very, very lucky to 32 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:05,800 be part of many upstarts at Lego. 33 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,600 The the good thing about the Lego culture is all about 34 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,800 innovation, trying new things and, and, and seeing how far you 35 00:02:12,800 --> 00:02:15,720 can stretch the brands and the and the products. 36 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:21,120 So I was part of developing TV shows, I was part of developing 37 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,560 computer games for kids as an initiative, just dabbling in the 38 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,640 water, finding out how Lego could be relevant in that space. 39 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,960 So but I was also doing innovation and other things and 40 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,360 even even running HR at a certain point in time. 41 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:39,440 Yeah. So I was just trying many 42 00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,200 different things. So I mean, how useful, 43 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:44,400 presumably having covered the waterfront. 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,160 I was an account man briefly in advertising before I became a 45 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:51,000 copywriter, and I think we see less and less of this in an age 46 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,080 of specialisation. But having done more than one 47 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,880 role within an organization I think helps in multiple ways. 48 00:02:57,880 --> 00:02:59,920 It helps in terms of your own perspective. 49 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,240 It also helps in terms of your relationships with other people, 50 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,440 because you've been their side of the fence as well, I suppose. 51 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,520 Did you find the same thing? Absolutely. 52 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,600 I, I really enjoyed doing different things within, within 53 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:17,760 the group and connecting to different parts of customer 54 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,640 needs or kids needs, but also understanding the organization 55 00:03:21,640 --> 00:03:24,240 on a broader scale. I often had roles, which was 56 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,120 kind of breaking new ground. So trying something we hadn't 57 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,720 done before. So the first computer game, as I 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:35,600 said, or doing Lego licensing or, or, or doing books and 59 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,080 things like that for kids. So it's all breaking new ground 60 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:41,680 and seeing how far we could stretch the brand, but then at 61 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:44,360 the same time you get a deeper and deeper knowledge about 62 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,520 children, a deeper and deeper knowledge about your colleagues 63 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:50,960 in these spaces and the industries that are catering for 64 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:55,000 your core customers. And interestingly, I suppose you 65 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,840 also took is, is Lego privately owned or is it a public company? 66 00:03:58,840 --> 00:03:59,640 It's privately. Owned. 67 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,160 Privately owned, yeah. Which explains partly I suppose 68 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,520 the the focus on the customer because one of my one of my 69 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,560 complaints is that increasingly in companies which are 70 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,640 shareholder focused, the customer effectively takes a 71 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,519 back seat. And what I notice happening is 72 00:04:17,519 --> 00:04:21,680 1A decline in innovation and and brand investment generally to 73 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,040 meet short term objectives. But the other thing I tend to 74 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,040 see is effectively where operational efficiencies are 75 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,840 introduced at the customer's own expense. 76 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,880 So it's, you know, it's a great story to the stock market that 77 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:40,560 you've managed to transition 40% of your customers from human 78 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,440 checkouts to the supermarket to self checkout. 79 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,160 It's a wonderful story to the stock market because it's a 80 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,200 plausible story with a cost saving narrative, but the long 81 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,320 term costs of that are that your customer is paying a price for 82 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,760 your own internal efficiencies, which may not be that great a 83 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,600 business move. So that's fascinating. 84 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,840 So it's still effectively family owned, I guess. 85 00:05:02,840 --> 00:05:04,000 Is it? Yes, it is. 86 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:07,320 It's the fourth generation, I believe that's running it. 87 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,960 And it of course gives a lot of continuity. 88 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,400 It gives a lot of belief in the brand and what the brand stands 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,560 for. It gets a lot of shared 90 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,920 knowledge about what's right for the brand and what's not right 91 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:23,080 for the brand. And that, that is kind of, yes, 92 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:27,280 a fantastic asset to have. And I guess it still has an 93 00:05:27,280 --> 00:05:30,080 underlying mission or purpose without getting into the whole 94 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,600 brand purpose question, which can get a bit tedious, but 95 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,600 ultimately the educational purpose still underpins 96 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:40,000 everything I guess. Yeah, it's a combination of 97 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,200 education and entertainment, I would say, because if you go 98 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,400 purely didactic, you can easily use the kids, lose the kids. 99 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:52,480 But it's it is about being relevant for the kids of today 100 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,160 and delivering something to them that they find exciting. 101 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,520 You know, some parents would like to say, yeah, when I grew 102 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,320 up, we only had red bricks and yellow bricks and we could only 103 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:06,360 build very simple things. But if if Lego had followed that 104 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,760 direction, it would have been gone out of business. 105 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,680 So it's really about understanding what is it the 106 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,600 kids of today? What do they want? 107 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,080 What do they need? What makes them excited about 108 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,400 something? And we we had a period where we 109 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:23,560 were very much seen as a toy company for six year olds. 110 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,080 And if you were nine, you wouldn't be seen near Lego. 111 00:06:27,280 --> 00:06:29,640 And that has flipped. That has totally changed. 112 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,920 Yeah, because children are unbelievably ageist, aren't 113 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,480 they? If you if you buy a Peppa Pig 114 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:42,040 toy for someone who is one year over the the core target 115 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,720 audience for Peppa Pig, it's perceived as a massive insult. 116 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,840 And so children have this weird thing of if you're not careful, 117 00:06:49,840 --> 00:06:53,240 of completely rejecting the things they enjoyed two years 118 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:57,040 before. And so you also then of course, 119 00:06:57,040 --> 00:06:59,920 did something extraordinary, which I have to admit, if you'd 120 00:06:59,920 --> 00:07:03,720 proposed it to me, I would have said you were mad, which was the 121 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,960 adult market as well, which was, I think, one of the bravest. 122 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,960 And you know, I'll have to confess if you'd gone to me as a 123 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,800 marketing person, I like to think of myself as fairly 124 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,080 adventurous and happy to entertain, you know, slightly 125 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,120 outlandish ideas. But the pursuit of the adult 126 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,720 market with very high-priced, fantastically sophisticated 127 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,560 versions of Lego, that was an extraordinary success in a way, 128 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,600 wasn't it? Yes, but it was also and now it 129 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,760 sounds like something we just switched on overnight or we made 130 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,960 a decision let's be for adults and then we should. 131 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,120 But it wasn't like that. There was a lot of resistance 132 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,000 within the company. We're for kids, we're really not 133 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:47,720 for adults and and how would they see us in the future if we 134 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,400 become two adults and not for the kids etcetera. 135 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,280 So it's really only when the community numbers became so 136 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:58,520 convincing and the share of the sales was growing and growing 137 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,600 and growing that we embraced that new business opportunity. 138 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,360 And now it's embraced to the full with also the the the line 139 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,880 of the flowers, which is maybe more aimed at a different target 140 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:13,080 group. You know that's. 141 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:14,320 Astounding. I saw that. 142 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:16,480 Is it Botanicals, it's called, is it? 143 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,640 Yes, I saw that. They're things of extraordinary 144 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:21,640 beauty. I mean, that again was a 145 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:23,680 brilliant, brilliant lateral move. 146 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,080 And again, it's who is the adult target audience because I have 147 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:29,640 to confess, it doesn't include me. 148 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,679 It might well include my brother, I suspect. 149 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:39,080 Or if if you're allowed to anyway, who, who, what happened 150 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:41,679 You you tentatively started producing, I suppose brand 151 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:44,480 partnerships was was a great foundation of it. 152 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,360 Yeah, a lot of the, the Star Wars fans, for example, that 153 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,880 bought Lego as kids, they weren't ready to give up Star 154 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,240 Wars when they became adults. So they kept on buying, for 155 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,600 example. And, and other developments were 156 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,480 that we we did something called Lego Ideas where we allowed the 157 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:05,920 community to come up with ideas of what they would like to buy 158 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,320 in a Lego box, which was a big revolution. 159 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:13,160 So they came up with, you know, that they wanted to see The 160 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:16,640 Simpsons in a Lego set. And so we didn't have to produce 161 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,080 a whole line. We could just produce 1 set. 162 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:21,960 And there were a lot of these fan communities that had 163 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,320 overlaps with the Lego community and some other kind of property, 164 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,120 IP property. And by doing that more and more, 165 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,720 it became visible that this target group had real buying 166 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,000 power and real interest in other types of models. 167 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,440 And there were other ways of servicing them, not having 10 168 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:44,240 SKUs, but, but having different skews that were priced higher, 169 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,520 more complicated. And in a, in an interesting 170 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,200 effect, we, we, we saw that these fans of Lego, which are 171 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,400 the really high spenders, they will spend thousands of pounds 172 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:59,680 on, on Lego. They were helping, pulling up 173 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:03,400 other people because they they were kind of the community 174 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,000 spreading everything on social media, in their networks, in 175 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,760 their communities and other people and kids will see their 176 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,320 amazing models of what they could do and that would inspire 177 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:20,240 them, which then took Lego away from being a play toy into into 178 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,480 a creative medium. So that also presumably helped 179 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:26,040 with the whole problem of children at the age of 7 or 8 180 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:27,840 rejecting it because they saw it as. 181 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:32,160 So it was almost the case of going a little bit too far in 182 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,720 order to achieve the middle. I always think it's very 183 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,560 interesting that the, the Indian restaurant Deshume, in order to 184 00:10:38,560 --> 00:10:42,040 get people to come in at lunchtime open for breakfast, 185 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:45,920 which is it's, it's, it's rather like that very clever form of 186 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:47,960 overshoot. I also remember, by the way, I 187 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:50,680 had one of the, one of the most interesting conversations I had 188 00:10:50,680 --> 00:10:53,840 a few years ago was with Lego discussing the question of 189 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,640 sustainability and recycling. And I remember saying to the 190 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,720 book to be absolutely candid, if there is one brand I've ever had 191 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:06,960 to talk to which doesn't have a problem with being reused, I 192 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:09,480 can't envisage ever throwing away Lego. 193 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,200 If I owned Lego, I might pass it on to somebody else, I might 194 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,040 keep it, I might put it in the cupboard. 195 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,040 But it is almost, almost infinitely reusable. 196 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:20,520 Obviously, I think the bricks lose a certain degree of, 197 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,880 they'll lose a certain degree of cohesion after, you know, 100 198 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:28,120 uses or something. But I remember saying that of 199 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,360 all the, of all the toys, of all the things you buy for children, 200 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,120 which cannot be accused of being environmentally unsustainable, 201 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,840 Lego came with the top. And I, I think I did the 202 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:40,160 slightly irresponsible thing. My colleagues would probably 203 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,760 have shot me for it, of saying you really don't have much to 204 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,360 worry about here. I mean, there are you you can 205 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,400 make it from recycled plastic, you can recycle it if people 206 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,320 want to, and so on and so forth. Yeah, an element, some of the 207 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:56,120 softer elements are today done by reusable materials. 208 00:11:56,120 --> 00:12:00,200 So the problem is the clutch power, you know, in the bricks 209 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,560 that they, the clutch power is not as strong. 210 00:12:02,560 --> 00:12:07,440 So by doing something that's recyclable, not 100%, but it 211 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,400 will move the knowledge of the company more and more in that 212 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,920 direction. And then eventually maybe it 213 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,480 will be a much higher percentage that's reusable and. 214 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,720 Then one day, so you're marketing director of Lego, 215 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,080 you're presumably in Denmark at that point, and you get a call 216 00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:24,760 from Zurich. I think if I'm right, the 217 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,120 headhunter first calls you and asks you if you're interested in 218 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,880 working for Zurich, which is, you know, it does seem like 219 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,000 quite a flip and at first you basically rejected it. 220 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,360 Is that right? That that is true. 221 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:40,520 I actually had left Lego at that point in time and I was working 222 00:12:40,560 --> 00:12:44,240 in a different company with my, with my husband and I had a very 223 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:48,880 cosy life working with him on, on the clients and his business 224 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,360 and travelling the world together. 225 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,360 So, so we had kind of, I had thought no more corporate for 226 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,120 me. I'm I'm done with corporate. 227 00:12:57,120 --> 00:12:59,960 I want a different three-year life more as an entrepreneur. 228 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,000 And then I did get a call from a headhunter about this position 229 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,120 at Zurich. And I just thought in insurance 230 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,840 companies, they're not really customer focus. 231 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,160 So this is not for me. And I pointed to some other 232 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,440 people that might be interesting for this Headhartter to talk 233 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,440 too. Maybe it was my own lack of 234 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,440 understanding about insurance and what is insurance is all 235 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,840 about, but that was how I perceived it seen from the 236 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:28,040 outside. And, and I thought, you know, 237 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:31,760 I've done all my career has been about how to do good things for 238 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,040 customers and, and really move the needle on that with some of 239 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,080 the leading companies in the world that, that I, I learned 240 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,600 together with. And, and just seeing me in a 241 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:42,960 whole different group was, was difficult for me. 242 00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:47,640 But then I, I, some few months later, I got a call from 243 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,080 somebody in my network who had been working for Progressive for 244 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,280 many years in the US and, and he had been in the same network as 245 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:57,920 me. And he said, there is this job 246 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:01,320 at Zurich and it really has your name written all over it. 247 00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:05,200 You, you should go talk to them. So Mario would like to talk to 248 00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:06,880 you and see if this is something for you. 249 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,600 So actually being invited to talk to the CEO, of course, made 250 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,720 me super curious and interested. And I thought that's different. 251 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:19,200 So I went and had a meeting with the CEO and I heard his vision 252 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:24,680 for insurance and how to make insurance more customer friendly 253 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,040 than than what it is or was at that point in time. 254 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,120 And that was very inspiring. And then I was back the week 255 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,280 after we had another conversation and then I was 256 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:35,720 done. I was hired. 257 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,160 You're hooked. And in particular, it was 258 00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:41,160 because it allowed you to focus as much on customer experience 259 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,640 and retention as a simple acquisition. 260 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,680 Is that right? Exactly. 261 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,880 That was part of it, but it was what really made me interested 262 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:53,920 was the transformation. It was trying to do something in 263 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,000 a business that's not known for this. 264 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,920 And I, I should caveat with that, that we have two lines of 265 00:14:59,920 --> 00:15:01,640 business. We have commercial insurance 266 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,760 where we're one of the leading in the world and we're top, top 267 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,680 tuned to be customer focus. But in our retail business, 268 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,120 which was much closer to my world where we serve individual 269 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:17,040 customers, we were less advanced and and compared to Lego really 270 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,360 not on in the same league. So for me it was really the 271 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,640 challenge. What do you do in a company like 272 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:28,240 that that has the intent they want to do it, but it's an old 273 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:31,240 super tanker. It's been around for 150 years. 274 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,640 What can we do to make that change? 275 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:36,600 And that I was super interested in. 276 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:43,000 And then with his his vision and bagging back backing, I found it 277 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,840 very attractive. The interesting thing is, of 278 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,360 course, it's seen traditionally as a distress purchase or as a 279 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,480 grudge purchase. Yeah, I think 50% of people or 280 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:56,800 more don't claim in any given year. 281 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,480 So they're always inclined to increasingly doubt the value of 282 00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:02,560 what they're spending. Yes. 283 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:08,120 And so part of the aim of this was to take the existing 284 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,560 customers, the existing retail customers of Zurich and get them 285 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,040 effectively to sort of reframe how they thought about 286 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,280 insurance. Is that right? 287 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,720 Yes, by actually also delivering differently to them. 288 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:23,080 So one of the challenges is exactly what you're saying that 289 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,800 50% of the customers we don't talk to through the year. 290 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,680 And we know from our data, the customers we engage with more 291 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,680 often, they have a claim or they have more products, they're much 292 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,400 more happy. So, So what part of the things 293 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,520 we were doing is reframing who we are. 294 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:42,960 So we're not just about protection, we're about 295 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:45,280 prevention, protection and service. 296 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,080 And that gives you more space to deliver value. 297 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,520 You know, so you will kind of do more things for your customers 298 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,920 in order for them to feel the relevance in a different way. 299 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,840 That's the the whole industry is moving in that direction, but 300 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:05,319 it's a a different framing. Of course, is a is a brilliant 301 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,560 conversation because it benefits both parties, doesn't it? 302 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:13,319 You don't want your customers to have an unfortunate accident you 303 00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:16,079 know they don't want to have. Well, you know they don't want 304 00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:20,040 to have an unfortunate accident. And as you said, it actually 305 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,319 reframes the whole conversation effectively away from what you 306 00:17:25,319 --> 00:17:28,840 might call just being an emergency service towards some 307 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,840 sort of partnership. Yes, very, very interesting. 308 00:17:32,120 --> 00:17:35,400 So we can play a different role. So for example, we in some 309 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,160 countries we send out hail alerts. 310 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,520 You know, in your area, there's predicted to be a hail alert. 311 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:43,560 Maybe you should park your car in the garage. 312 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,600 And it's not just to save money, but it actually is also for the 313 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,600 customer to be able to take action. 314 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,760 They don't want the hassle with their having to repair their 315 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,440 cars either. So in finding more of these 316 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:59,080 things or when you've had an accident, we have service desk, 317 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:03,000 we have concierge services, we book the car in for for service, 318 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:06,640 all all of these things around the situations that's normally 319 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:09,360 hassle situation for for a customer. 320 00:18:09,360 --> 00:18:11,440 What, what can we do to make that easier? 321 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,720 How can we be playing a better role in that situation? 322 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,640 This is absolutely fascinating because in a sense it's also 323 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,720 gloriously meaningful precisely because it's so unexpected. 324 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,960 And you do have one advantage I think in insurance, which is 325 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,680 that generally customer expectations are quite low. 326 00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,600 They assume. I mean, one of my assumptions 327 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,080 with insurance, which has pleasantly surprised me on a few 328 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,680 occasions, is you assume that the claim is going to be paid 329 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,200 with great reluctance. And when the people are actually 330 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,320 perfectly helpful and positive, it comes as a delightful 331 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,920 surprise. Which is I think, I think in a 332 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,520 sense you have an interesting relationship because people 333 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,800 until they claim at the very least start the relationship 334 00:18:57,800 --> 00:19:00,440 from a position of just default mistrust. 335 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,200 They're not really, you know, they're always paranoid that 336 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,720 you're going to find a loophole or find some, you know, 337 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,080 objection or reason not to pay. And there is something with the 338 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,680 narrative that insurance industry hasn't been good at 339 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,600 telling. So like in every other industry, 340 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,600 there would be players that are the decent players that will do 341 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,080 the right thing. You pay maybe a bit more, but 342 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,440 you get better service, it's more reliable. 343 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,320 And I think we haven't been good at telling that story. 344 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,560 So for example, in the UK we have a claims ratio of paying 345 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:37,280 out 97% of claims, you know, but in the perception of a mind of a 346 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,120 customer, it's maybe 50%. So as an industry we also need 347 00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:45,360 to get over ourselves and communicate these things more. 348 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:50,560 Yeah, maybe some some companies cannot put that number as high 349 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,440 as we can put it in our case, but we should do because we are 350 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,320 a premium provider. So we provide premium service 351 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,520 and people should know, which is something that becomes even more 352 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,360 important now that people are using. 353 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:07,000 AI search to find out which insurance they should use. 354 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,080 Those criteria suddenly become important. 355 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:14,320 And we can't be shy or or not wanting to brag about these 356 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:16,880 things. We need to state yes, but if you 357 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,200 take out an insurance with us, guess what? 358 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,960 In this case, we pay out this amount of of claims. 359 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,400 That should build trust. And I know trust is also an 360 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,400 important concept for you. You know, the more that we, if 361 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,920 we don't say anything, we are prone to be perceived as anybody 362 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,200 else. But if we say, but this is who 363 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,920 we are, this is what we do, and then, you know, be proud of when 364 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,240 we serve people well. So in a sense, the very act of 365 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:47,920 marketing is a form of differentiation because I my 366 00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,840 guess is that half the people simply rely on, you know, 367 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:54,240 comparison websites for a large amount of their, you know, their 368 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,160 new customers. They compete purely on price. 369 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,880 And the problem when anything turns into a pure price 370 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,920 competition is in a sense, the company with the worst levels of 371 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:09,560 customer service or indeed the the lower level of claim 372 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:13,040 satisfaction is going to win. It's a race to the bottom. 373 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:15,800 Yes, exactly. And also, you know that it's 374 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:20,160 we're so technical that comparing one policy to the 375 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:25,120 other policy of what benefits and what payout rates is totally 376 00:21:25,120 --> 00:21:27,400 difficult to do as an individual. 377 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,640 It takes hours. I did it myself when I moved to 378 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,480 Switzerland. Just trying to compare being in 379 00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,000 the industry myself, I thought I should try to understand these 380 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,040 different providers. It's a nightmare, but it's not a 381 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:42,040 nightmare anymore because you just use chat TBT, which is much 382 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,840 more refined than a compared price comparison side. 383 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,880 And then you say these are my criteria, this is what I'm 384 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:51,240 looking for. For me, it's important that 385 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,320 there is a high claims payout or for me, it's important I get 386 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,760 service, I get access to personal advice. 387 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,240 And of course it's not the same for everyone, but it's our job 388 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:06,640 to understand what is important to what consumer group and how 389 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,920 do we then service them so they will be happy. 390 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,000 So one very interesting point about which I have to say this 391 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,400 is the first time I've heard it happen, but one of the great 392 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:21,280 advantages of AI based search is that it makes possible much more 393 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:23,440 nuanced decision making. Yes. 394 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,280 Because one of the things that's always concerned me, for 395 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:32,200 example, with the Cassie intermediary case, you know, 396 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:37,200 online travel agents, which is I've literally found myself so 397 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:43,480 fixated on price that in order to save £17.50, I book a flight 398 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,440 that leaves Gatwick at like 5:30 in the morning. 399 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,680 And then two days before I fly, I realize there's no way I'm 400 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:52,560 going to get my kids out of bed that early. 401 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,080 And we end up staying in a hotel overnight, which costs £200. 402 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,400 And you realize it's a completely false economy because 403 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,560 effectively what you've done is for ease of comparison, you've 404 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:07,760 fixated on the price, and all the other stuff that matters 405 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:11,320 gets effectively sidelined. Yeah. 406 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,800 And I think the future will be much more prompting on things 407 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,840 that are important to us. What are the factors in what 408 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,000 category, in what business that's important to you when you 409 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,760 travel or or when you you buy a new suitcase or whatever it is. 410 00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:30,800 And then as brands, we have to be much more responsive to that 411 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:35,400 individual need and make sure that we can service that rather 412 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:40,120 than communicating blanket the same thing to every everyone and 413 00:23:40,120 --> 00:23:43,120 and we will learn over time how people are prompting and what's 414 00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:45,960 important to them. So intriguingly, one of the 415 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,760 things given your search criteria, one of your criteria 416 00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,720 was you want to be able to talk to a human being, I think, 417 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:54,600 wasn't it? That, in other words, is the 418 00:23:54,600 --> 00:24:00,080 customer service reasonably good because one of the cheapest ways 419 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,920 in which you can cut costs is effectively to force the entire 420 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,160 claims process online. The problem with that is that 421 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,960 every claim is subtly different in some shape or form, and 422 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,200 consequently the price the consumer has to pay for 423 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,120 navigating your own internal bureaucracy isn't really worth 424 00:24:22,120 --> 00:24:23,120 paying. There are. 425 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:25,920 There are certain questions, I've always said where actually 426 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:29,560 this has to be, what it might be in three or four years time, a 427 00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:34,120 very, very sophisticated automatic agent for some part of 428 00:24:34,120 --> 00:24:36,520 the call. But there will always be an 429 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,160 element of complexity or the outlier that requires you to 430 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,520 talk to a human being and I. Think it should be choice, 431 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,760 though. I think the good brands will 432 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,240 give the choice to the customer because you will still find the 433 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,360 customer who wants to do it everything automatic at 1:00 in 434 00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:57,080 the morning. Yeah, and they should be able to 435 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,360 do that. And then you find other people 436 00:24:59,360 --> 00:25:03,000 with more complicated cases who, who would want to talk to a 437 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,720 human being or at this stage in the process, you want to talk to 438 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,960 somebody. And the, the winners in the 439 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:10,760 future will be the ones who understand that and give them 440 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,520 options. And if we go straight into this 441 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,920 efficiency run that you talked about before, it's just about 442 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,480 cutting cost out, cutting cost out, but it's also cutting 443 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,920 relationship out. It's also cutting any emotional 444 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:28,440 connection out with the brand. So, so that's not going to, 445 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,600 that's not going to win in the long run if you want to be at 446 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,600 least a meaningful brand to your customers. 447 00:25:35,360 --> 00:25:37,920 I've always wondered, because I know you're absolutely and I 448 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,840 think quite rightly fixated on customer retention. 449 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:45,720 I've always wondered what very good call centre staff would 450 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:50,720 actually be paid if they could lay claim to the real value they 451 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:55,400 create in terms of retention. In that salespeople obviously 452 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,600 can lay claim, whether rightly or wrongly, to quite a lot of 453 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,240 value by claiming that this sale would not have happened in less 454 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,200 for me. Whether that's true or not, of 455 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,840 course, is a bit debatable. But they can nonetheless make 456 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:10,760 that claim that I brought in X million in revenue, which is 457 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,880 worth this if you're contributing to, to customer 458 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,640 retention, which I think can be just as decisive by the way, 459 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,720 with a good phone call as it can be an acquisition. 460 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,200 You, well, you could acquire that data, but it would take 3 461 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,520 or 4 years to actually prove your case. 462 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:29,680 And so we do. Have that we do. 463 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:32,840 Have that data. Not in all countries, but we do 464 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,400 have it in Spain, for example, where we where we have this 465 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,680 retention centre, which is part of the contact centre where 466 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:46,600 their job is, is to to be the voice and the dialogue, be 467 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:48,640 masters of that dialogue with the customers. 468 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:52,160 When, when we have renewals or when we haven't talked to 469 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,360 somebody for a long time, just reach out to them, hear how 470 00:26:55,360 --> 00:26:57,440 they're doing, if there's anything we can help them with. 471 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,480 So we're, we're really exploring retention quite a lot. 472 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,560 And also it actually is meaningful to a customer service 473 00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,440 centre to be both doing service calls, but also retention calls 474 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,960 or, or sales calls. So I, I think it's a very good 475 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,320 perspective of, of valuing that in the same way as you value the 476 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,400 sales people. Yes, I've always thought. 477 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:23,720 I've always thought also, of course the call centre is 478 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,960 incredibly valuable as a feedback mechanism because it's 479 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,640 there where you discover what people can't do online. 480 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,000 Yes. So, you know, in other In other 481 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,160 words, if you don't have some sort of human feedback mechanism 482 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,240 for people who've tried to self-serve and failed, you'll 483 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,240 never learn what you what it is you're doing wrong, because all 484 00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,720 you'll have is a lot of people leaving you without knowing the 485 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,000 reason why. Yeah, exactly. 486 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,320 And I think we what, what we could be better at is really 487 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,720 using that data, which is also something that we, we are 488 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,640 working on. You know that it's, it's another 489 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,600 way of also valuing the people who work in service more by 490 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,600 making sure that they are the carrier of that voice of the 491 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:07,920 customer. And that voice is being fed back 492 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,000 into the business and makes changes in the business. 493 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,720 So we serve our customers better. 494 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,200 It doesn't happen everywhere though, but but it's it's the 495 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,200 the right way to go, I think, because the value is 496 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,160 unbelievably strong. Yes. 497 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,800 And of course relational value is slower to emerge than 498 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,240 transactional value. And so the temptation is always 499 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,120 to over invest in transactions and under invest in 500 00:28:32,120 --> 00:28:35,680 relationships, which I think is interesting. 501 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:38,160 I'd like, I had a very mischievous phrase where I said 502 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,200 in many cases the customer wants the marriage and the chief 503 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:45,040 financial officer thinks they're running an escort agency, you 504 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,080 know, but you know, in other words, one person effectively 505 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,080 wants this long term relationship of ever deepening 506 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:55,240 trust and understanding and the person who's actually on the 507 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,920 other side of the relationship effectively wants it to be 508 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,160 transactional, where every transaction is a stand alone 509 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,680 event. Yeah, but that's where we need 510 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,160 the data so we can prove that this is this. 511 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,880 This is not just a costly exercise to be servicing 512 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,760 customers well and relating to them. 513 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:17,640 Is this actually a meaningful business strategy because it 514 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,800 makes the IT creates loyal customers in a different way? 515 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,960 And you've actually developed a model, haven't you, which shows 516 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,240 with the, I think with the Chief Operating Officer or the Chief 517 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,400 Financial Officer, you've developed a whole model which 518 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,760 effectively shows how a 1% increase in retention translates 519 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,120 into revenue and profit. Is that right? 520 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,040 Yeah. It was very important to us and 521 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,560 I think it's something we've struggled with in marketing for 522 00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:46,200 years is to actually say how do we quantify the value we are 523 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,640 creating. And, and especially if you're in 524 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,000 financial industry, the more you can quantify the impact of what 525 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,920 you do, the the better. So we teamed up with, we teamed 526 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,720 up with our CFO after having actually cleaned our data and 527 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:04,400 made sure we had a global database of our customer data. 528 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,560 And then we kind of combined that with the financial data so 529 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,400 that we today have a view of our customers, how many we have, 530 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,120 what they spend on what, how long they stay with us, what's 531 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,160 the customer lifetime value, etcetera. 532 00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,160 So we can, we can now measure what we call net revenue 533 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,480 retention and this is a measure, it's a metric that Fred Reichelt 534 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:33,200 kind of used and because he was unhappy with NPS not being so 535 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:37,760 quantifiable. So moving to NRR, where we can 536 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:42,200 see here, we can see on our customer base how much revenue 537 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,320 we got from our customer base in the previous year. 538 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,600 Then we look at how much revenue we lost by losing customers, how 539 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,360 much revenue we are losing by losing products from customers. 540 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:59,480 There's another bucket, how much income we have by renewals and 541 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,280 then how much income we have with upsell and cross sell, so 542 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,480 servicing more needs and then that comes then to a total 543 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,200 number. We look at that number over the 544 00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,440 previous year. And then if we are, if we are 545 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:14,640 above 100, we have created loyalty. 546 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:18,680 We have more customer value with us from that customer base. 547 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,520 If we're below, we have lost loyalty. 548 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:26,080 So it gives us a number to have a discussion with our our 549 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:30,320 financial people on, but also with the markets and it moves 550 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,880 away from we just need to acquire some new customers. 551 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,360 It's it's we need to acquire new customers, but we also need to 552 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,600 loyalise the ones we have and make sure that they stay with us 553 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,520 because if they're, if they're fleeing us in drones is we're 554 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,720 not doing everything right. So. 555 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:49,440 So we need to learn from that on an ongoing basis. 556 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,160 And the model presumably accounts for the fact that to 557 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:57,560 acquire a new customer to replace one that you've lost is, 558 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,360 is now, I would argue, increasingly becoming more 559 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,800 expensive, isn't it? Yeah. 560 00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,400 So once you actually put that comparison in, how much, Yes, 561 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,120 OK, we are spending some money on existing customers, but how 562 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,880 much would it cost to actually acquire a new customer to 563 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,400 replace any of these customers we lose? 564 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:20,160 You also know that, you know, any customer who's been with you 565 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,680 for two or three years is probably disproportionately 566 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:28,080 valuable because they're capable of being loyal, which some 567 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,880 people aren't. I mean there are there are 568 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:31,840 simple price chases in the market. 569 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,320 Yes. But we also learn, for example, 570 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,920 when we look at the data that if a customer has a life insurance 571 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:42,320 with us and they also have a car insurance with us, they stay 572 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,720 longer. That's logic, but they stay 573 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:49,040 longer for both. Actually, a car insurance is a 574 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,440 commodity product. It's a price game. 575 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,320 You go with the cheapest. But if we have a deeper 576 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,960 relationship with our customers, price is no longer so important 577 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,280 for them. They know what we're delivering. 578 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,680 They know the value is worth something for them. 579 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,880 So it's like it came from Lego where we had many customers 580 00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:12,720 would buy eight boxes a year or ten boxes a year to an industry 581 00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:18,360 where the, where the, where we may be selling 1.3 products a 582 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:20,960 year to a customer. So it's a very different world. 583 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,600 And there's not really anyone in the insurance industry who has 584 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,280 who has solved that Riddle of how we get customers to 585 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:33,640 understand or how we demonstrate to customers what value we can 586 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,160 deliver to them. There's there's still something 587 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:39,000 in that we need to find out. What you've also done, I think 588 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,200 is you've done some really interesting sort of experimental 589 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,520 behaviour in creating a customer focus. 590 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,240 And you, you, you use the analogy of a super tanker, you 591 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,440 have 60,000 employees. How on earth do you effectively 592 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,960 move that super tanker around so that it's facing towards the 593 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,280 customer more and perhaps towards the spreadsheet a bit 594 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,840 less? Yeah. 595 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,200 And it's also, by the way, I think you also have an 596 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,520 interesting issue of differentiation in that I think 597 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,320 the default position of the customer is probably some degree 598 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,280 of mistrust. And it's also worth remembering, 599 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,480 I think that in a lot of categories which have been 600 00:34:19,520 --> 00:34:24,080 obsessed with cost cutting and excessive automation, a lot of 601 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,679 your customers are probably going to be once bitten, twice 602 00:34:26,679 --> 00:34:29,239 shy. So they've had one bad 603 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:33,960 experience and effectively as a result, they kind of mistrust 604 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,360 the category. So, so as you said, making 605 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,880 yourself significantly different in the category. 606 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:43,480 And that basically requires, I think a cultural change. 607 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,440 It's not just a, it's not just a small process or an investment 608 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,840 in the call centre, though it will undoubtedly entail that. 609 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,760 So you've actually brought in kind of you've actually brought 610 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,520 in empathy training, is that right? 611 00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:58,560 Yeah, that's, that's true. Yeah. 612 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,760 And and that's because they, it was very obvious to me after 613 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,680 having worked in a, in an industry in toys, that's a lot 614 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,760 about empathy, it's a lot about emotions and connecting on an 615 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,800 emotional level with the children and, and excite them. 616 00:35:17,240 --> 00:35:21,680 And then coming into an industry that's very factual, very 617 00:35:22,240 --> 00:35:27,080 finance driven and very inward focused and not focused on the 618 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:31,080 customer that, that it often. And then from listening to calls 619 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,200 and, and being in customer meetings, etcetera, etcetera. 620 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,480 It's we are extremely professional. 621 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:40,960 We're very, very good at what we do technically, but but it, 622 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,520 that's not enough. You know, you need to go from 623 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,880 not just talking to the head of people, but also talking to the 624 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:51,200 heart and connecting with them. So we, we started to set out 625 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,080 with ACX vision. So a customer experience vision 626 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,320 that it's every interaction should be about building a 627 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,800 meaningful relationship. Because if you only talk to your 628 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,640 customers very few times, you need to make that connection. 629 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,040 So it's not when somebody call in and they've had an accident. 630 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,760 Your first question should not be what's your policy number? 631 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,640 It should be. I hope you're well, I hope 632 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,960 you're good. And what happened? 633 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:19,600 What can I help you with So and, and in in reality, people want 634 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:21,680 to do the right thing. If you're on the phone, you want 635 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,440 to do the right thing. But if you for years have 636 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,760 learned that it's more about the technical skills and being 637 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,920 technical correct, how do we then move that to still being 638 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:35,200 technically strong and technically correct, but then 639 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:39,320 actually bringing your whole self into that conversation and, 640 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,240 and building that relationship. So we we started looking at 641 00:36:42,240 --> 00:36:45,080 training for that. Because Mark Evans, I remember 642 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,560 he had someone on secondment at Direct Line from, you know, some 643 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,680 actuarial part of the business and they said, I don't know why 644 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,680 on earth they've seconded me to marketing because I'm rubbish at 645 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,800 drawing. And you always have, you always 646 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,160 have that terrible problem in an organization which I suppose the 647 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,920 dominant cultures are both legal and mathematical, that 648 00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:10,600 marketing, you know, is a slightly uneasy bedfellow. 649 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,320 And so carrying, I know that I'm pretty sure that Cheryl, who's 650 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,080 the marketing director of Aviva, holds for the whole board of the 651 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,560 organization a customer day every year. 652 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,040 And it's effectively getting the entire board to spend one day of 653 00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,800 their year entirely focused on the idea of customer value and 654 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:36,440 psychological value. Yes, that's a brilliant thing to 655 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,280 do. And I, I think it is important 656 00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:40,520 that it's on their agenda as well. 657 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,520 You know, we also have the same strategy day every year with 658 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:46,760 our, with our board, which is also about the customer, but it 659 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,280 didn't used to be like that. And, and it's, it's, it's not 660 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,040 only on that level, you need to do it on that level, but it 661 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,520 needs to be in all, across all levels in the organization. 662 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,160 And then it, it's, it's about bringing it a home to the 663 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,080 organization. So they want to do it. 664 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,680 It's not like, OK, headquarter has asked me to do empathy and I 665 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,640 will be a nice and feely, touchy feely from now on. 666 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,840 It's, it's really a, a, a different way of doing business, 667 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,920 but bringing, bringing your human side to work. 668 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:20,640 So we're training it in two ways. 669 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,560 We're training it with, with online training where you can do 670 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,120 it in your own time and get the basic understanding of not 671 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,040 customers are not all the same. And this is how you could 672 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,280 address them. And this is how you can do 673 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,640 things in a, in a nicer kind of more empathetic way. 674 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,320 The other thing we're doing is deeper and that's where we go 675 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,200 into a department, say a claims department and we do kind of a 676 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,760 diagnostic first. So what's happening in this 677 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:48,720 department? How do they answer the phones? 678 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,840 How do they talk in emails? What are the issues they are 679 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:54,160 having, What are they being measured on? 680 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,200 How how do they find their day-to-day stressful? 681 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,760 So we do that diagnostics and then takes four days. 682 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,800 We talk to the leadership team about that and then we bring the 683 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,160 whole team together for a couple of days where we bring in 684 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,560 actors, that professional actors who will act out some of these 685 00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:17,240 most prevalent scenarios. And then they will show them 686 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:21,680 variations of how these situations could be tackled in a 687 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:25,200 more empathetic way. And then it's interactive with 688 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,280 the participants there. And then they try it out 689 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,120 themselves, but they're not criticizing their colleagues. 690 00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,080 They're looking at situations that they can recognize from 691 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,680 their everyday life because it's based on the audit. 692 00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,840 And then they get it under their skin and then and then it's like 693 00:39:41,240 --> 00:39:45,560 a penny drops and they get this can be a better, different way 694 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,080 of working. And what we're seeing after this 695 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:51,920 training is that in some instances, the NPS score and the 696 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,320 friendliness of the advisor goes up 20 plus points and it 697 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,400 doesn't, it doesn't drop again, it stays up there. 698 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,040 So it makes a difference. So they get. 699 00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,840 Well, well, well, OK, because that would always be my fear 700 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,960 that you could bring in some improv actors and you would see 701 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,440 a short term change. But presumably because they 702 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,600 notice the change it has in the person they're talking to you on 703 00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:18,640 the phone, they actually stick with the new behaviour. 704 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,200 Yes, they because they, you know, I think they genuinely 705 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,200 wants to do the right thing, but also they can see the impact on 706 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,640 happier customers. It makes their life easier and 707 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:34,320 they even see a strong impact on how they collaborate because 708 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,480 empathy also goes towards your colleagues. 709 00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:40,120 So you bring these tools into play also with your colleagues. 710 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,120 So they, it becomes a more empathetic organization. 711 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:47,120 So I think that's the that's the real trick is to, to go to that 712 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,600 deeper level where people can see the difference and feel the 713 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,360 difference. It's not 20% percentage points 714 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:57,840 everywhere because if the level is already, yeah, it won't go up 715 00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:00,320 that much. But it, it is significant and we 716 00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:04,680 measured over time and it is a, it is a step change that 717 00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:07,560 continues. So we have numbers now two years 718 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:13,960 back, it's the same level, yeah. And what's in terms of the 719 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,920 metrics you, or or rather you know, the bonus structure, 720 00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,200 metrics you use to incentivize this behaviour? 721 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:24,760 Presumably you had to bring in a slightly new scoring system to 722 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,040 acknowledge this because one of, well, you know, one of my great 723 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,360 beefs is the extent to which call centres are in many ways 724 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:34,920 brilliant, brilliant entities, but they're often judged on 725 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:36,440 completely the wrong thing, right? 726 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,160 You know, how brief you can make a call seems to be a terrible, 727 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,680 terrible, terrible measure. How did you change the sort of 728 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,360 bonus structure? But we're, we're measuring them 729 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:52,400 on help, helpfulness and friendliness and, and the 730 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:54,960 satisfaction. So TNTNPS. 731 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,640 And then we also look at some of these more operational 732 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,320 standards. You know, that is so ideally in 733 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,440 my world, I, I wouldn't measure how many calls you have by, by 734 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,720 hour because that's a very negative. 735 00:42:11,240 --> 00:42:14,120 But that takes a longer time to change some of these more 736 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,240 operational measures because again, it's, this is how contact 737 00:42:18,240 --> 00:42:19,960 centres have been driven for years. 738 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,200 And, and it's, it's a bit of a journey also for the leadership 739 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:26,160 team to go to. OK, So once we changed how 740 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:29,680 friendly we are, how empathetic we are, we also need to change 741 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,320 how we're measuring this. So I, we, we haven't done a 742 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,480 total overhaul across all customer service, but that's 743 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,280 what we're standing in front of to look at as well. 744 00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:43,720 Do you know Sapos? Yes, I, I knew, I knew a few 745 00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:46,160 people who worked there that had an extreme. 746 00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:50,560 I think they they at one stage they had a customer service call 747 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,600 that lasted 6 hours or something. 748 00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,400 It was a, it was a point of absolute sort of principle with 749 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,480 them that you didn't get off the phone until the problem was 750 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,360 solved. Yes, and I think they had a lot 751 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,280 of influence on it, on everybody also on me. 752 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,360 I went there a couple of times and and visited them and, and 753 00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,000 tried to understand their philosophy and I I thought that 754 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,520 was a a great break with tradition. 755 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,800 It's not about a factory that needs to churn out as much as 756 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:20,880 possible, is really about this connection. 757 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,280 They would also send out 10 pairs of views as if that's what 758 00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,120 you wanted. If that's what you want, no, no. 759 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,560 And I also remember a story about Dyson which does this very 760 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:33,040 well, where someone was presenting the call centre 761 00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,520 operational statistics, James Dyson, and he kind of 762 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,160 interrupted them halfway through and said, as far as I'm 763 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,000 concerned, if one of our customers chooses to get in 764 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,240 touch with us, we should treat it as an honour and respond 765 00:43:45,240 --> 00:43:46,960 accordingly. Yes. 766 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,440 And that's what we do as well because we, we kind of as part 767 00:43:50,440 --> 00:43:54,840 of this whole transformation, we also defined 33 standards, 768 00:43:55,240 --> 00:43:59,320 customer experience standards where we looked at all our data, 769 00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:02,240 what customers were not happy with and what we should be doing 770 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:06,120 better across the world. And then out of that we created 771 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,720 33 standards of what good looks like, what is it the customer 772 00:44:10,720 --> 00:44:14,880 experience they are expecting and how should we be developing 773 00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,280 that. So what we we define the 774 00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:20,320 standards in, in the global organization and then each 775 00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,200 markets are being tracked on how they improve these standards and 776 00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,000 then they are finding their own way to deliver on them. 777 00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:33,520 So so a standard could be the the conversation needs to take 778 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,560 place. Any conversation with a customer 779 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,160 needs to start where the last 1 ended. 780 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,240 That's a brilliant yes. So, in other words, you don't 781 00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:45,760 have to effectively go through the long litany of explanation 782 00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,200 more than once. Yeah, it's what you said before. 783 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,440 You shouldn't push your inefficiency over to the 784 00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,440 customer. You need to make sure that if 785 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,000 you've asked this question before, that's captured and you 786 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,920 know it when you have a new conversation and that's it. 787 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,360 It's a stretch goal. It takes a while to get there, 788 00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,720 but but it's a this is the ambition. 789 00:45:06,720 --> 00:45:10,640 So we did 33 of them. Another one was it should always 790 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,880 be easy to find the contact details. 791 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:16,200 So if you want to talk to a human being, it should be easy 792 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:17,720 for you to find out how to do that. 793 00:45:17,720 --> 00:45:22,040 We're not hiding that on on the back of a a brochure or 794 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,760 somewhere or. The the number of websites which 795 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,280 make it impossible to find a telephone number or any other 796 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,120 form of contact other than the website itself. 797 00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,640 I mean, I think that's partly the fault of the people who 798 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,080 designed websites, who of course are probably disproportionately 799 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:43,000 telephobic and webophilic. So they are they are the kind of 800 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,520 person who designs a website is the kind of person who thinks 801 00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,880 that all interaction should take place via a screen. 802 00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,920 That could be, that could be, but there are also people who 803 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,120 are hiding behind. Also people who are deliberately 804 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,120 hiding behind it. There was a very brilliant 805 00:45:57,120 --> 00:45:59,920 management consultant, I spoke to you once in the field of 806 00:45:59,920 --> 00:46:04,280 customer retention, who said there was a single heuristic 807 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,680 rule which divided customer focused companies from customer 808 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:12,520 avoiding companies, which he said was whether the call centre 809 00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:16,000 was allowed to call out. Yeah, he said that was a 810 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,880 complete, it was almost a complete sort of watershed 811 00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:23,280 between the two, you know, between the two philosophies if 812 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:25,400 you like. And one of the strangest things, 813 00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,240 which was I've always ranted about, which is almost certainly 814 00:46:28,240 --> 00:46:32,200 one of your 30 or so measures, is that if the company never 815 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:37,240 willingly contacts you to help, your natural assumption is that 816 00:46:37,240 --> 00:46:41,000 they're trying to hide. Yeah, probably. 817 00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:42,480 Or that they're trying to avoid you. 818 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,920 And so when someone does call you and say, did that experience 819 00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,240 go well or are you happy or whatever it may be, it's 820 00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:54,720 extraordinary in terms of the potency it has because it's 821 00:46:54,720 --> 00:46:58,840 suddenly creates enormous trust that this is an organization 822 00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:01,880 which wants to solve my problem rather than avoid it. 823 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,800 Yes, yeah, exactly. And that's a clear demonstration 824 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,840 that that's you didn't consider the cost of making that call the 825 00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,000 the contact was more important to you. 826 00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:17,320 But if we go back to empathy, I, I think there's, we also did a, 827 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,680 a, a study on empathy and there's a clear gap between what 828 00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:25,280 customers are expecting from companies on empathy and what 829 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:28,360 companies are delivering. And I think that was a big eye 830 00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:33,000 opener for us that it's the customers wanted more. 831 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:38,640 So for example, in, in financial services, 88% of customers say 832 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:43,280 they expect empathy when they have an interaction, but only 833 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,360 63% feel they get it. You know, so there is a, a gap 834 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,800 between what are people expecting from companies and how 835 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,720 are they delivering on it. And I I bet you it's only going 836 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:57,320 to get worse with more AI coming into the picture. 837 00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:01,280 Interesting, because AI could be used to make things better. 838 00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,560 It will almost certainly at first be used to make things 839 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,400 cheaper, which is my great terror. 840 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,600 It's not, I'm not actually, well, I am frightened of AI in 841 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:12,680 the sense of, you know, killer drones. 842 00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:16,040 That does frighten me. But I'm, I'm at a purely kind of 843 00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:19,000 marketing level. What frightens me isn't AI 844 00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,960 itself, but the uses to which it will be put. 845 00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:26,000 Now in fairness, you have made a very good use of AI in rewriting 846 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:29,680 documentation, haven't you? So you, you, so this, I'd, I'd 847 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,560 love to know more about that. So you had sort of 60,000 848 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:35,320 documents or whatever that effectively needed to be 849 00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:37,280 rewritten. Yeah. 850 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,920 So we went through this transition where we kind of 851 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:43,040 redefined the brand. We, we defined our visual 852 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:47,680 identity to be more humanly, humanly engaging and warm and, 853 00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,480 and, and realistic in how we communicate. 854 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:55,720 But then we, we send out these letters or policies that nobody 855 00:48:55,720 --> 00:48:59,000 can understand. So then there was a disconnect 856 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:03,560 between how we were presenting the the brand in advertising and 857 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:06,520 how we were then interacting directly with our customers on 858 00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:09,520 an e-mail or on WhatsApp or in a policy. 859 00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:14,360 So in order to create a new way of communicating, we created a, 860 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:18,160 a new com strategy. We called it tone of voice and 861 00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,760 that had 10 principles for, you know, a void jargon, you know, 862 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,840 get tell it as it is, highlight what's in it for the customer, 863 00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:30,440 use bullet points, simple, simple, simple rules and 864 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:34,280 direction giving. And then we created this AI tool 865 00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,880 where you could take your existing document letter or 866 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,680 whatever it was, put it into the AI tool and it will come up with 867 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,680 a new version based on these principles. 868 00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:47,680 So if you think about you have to rewrite all the documents you 869 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,840 have that a customer facing, it'll take years, it'll take 870 00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:55,240 10's and 10s of years. But by this document, by this AI 871 00:49:55,240 --> 00:50:00,600 tool, because this was not work that we hired new people for. 872 00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:03,880 This was just a, a big workload, people being put on top of 873 00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,080 people's day-to-day work. And then in order to make that 874 00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,320 easier, we created this tool so they could quick, quicker get to 875 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,400 bigger solutions and, and the transformation is extraordinary 876 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,360 from where we were. And you, you kind of needed a 877 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,840 PhD to understand the three first sentences in a letter 878 00:50:22,240 --> 00:50:26,240 today where it's easy, it's engaging, it's and, and there's, 879 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,640 there's still a human in the picture because it, the, the 880 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,400 system would come up with a new version. 881 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,840 Then you could say make it shorter, make it more friendly, 882 00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,960 use more bullet points or, or edit it yourself. 883 00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,760 So it was not without human oversight, but it just helped 884 00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,120 the process. Did did it still need legal 885 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,200 approval at the end? I was. 886 00:50:44,240 --> 00:50:49,240 Just wondering some some docu not all not all but some of the 887 00:50:49,240 --> 00:50:51,720 documents did. That's that's true. 888 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,680 Because you wouldn't. I suppose you couldn't quite 889 00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,040 trust an AI if you told the AI to be helpful. 890 00:50:57,680 --> 00:51:01,040 You you couldn't quite trust the AI not to promise something that 891 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,400 it wasn't actually legally entitled to promise. 892 00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,360 So, but, but, but that, that actually, when I think about it, 893 00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,760 isn't it Because nearly every company of that size, 894 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,960 particularly in financial services, has this 10 year old 895 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:21,760 accretion of communications which no one's really looked at, 896 00:51:22,240 --> 00:51:26,320 Funnily enough. You know, this is before AI. 897 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,080 You know, one of the projects, a friend of mine wanted to start a 898 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,880 business, which was simply, I'm glad we didn't because AI would 899 00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:37,200 have killed the business, which was simply, we get good retired 900 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:41,400 copywriters once a day. You know, you'd find retired 901 00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,080 copywriters from the advertising industry and you'd say, OK, 902 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,000 we'll pay you a few, you know, a few £100 a day or, you know, in 903 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,080 your retirement just to rewrite a single piece. 904 00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,840 Yeah. That's quite meaningful as well. 905 00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:57,600 You know, before, before we had AI, that would have been a very 906 00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:01,080 meaningful process as well. Because if you just put your 907 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:05,600 people to do that, they're not necessarily good writers or good 908 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,560 communicators, the people who are in a normal department, but 909 00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:13,160 the copywriters would be understanding how to see it from 910 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,040 the reader's perspective and making it understandable, 911 00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:18,280 engaging, etcetera. So. 912 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:21,760 And and lawyers of course, are terrible copywriters generally, 913 00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,240 because the entire focus is covering every possible 914 00:52:26,240 --> 00:52:30,240 eventuality with the natural consequence that you sound 915 00:52:30,240 --> 00:52:33,320 massively evasive. You know, you sound massively 916 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,360 non committal. You know, it's rather like, you 917 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,480 know, when you get married, you know, you say, do you so and so 918 00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:43,760 promise to now most people answer, I do a lawyer would 919 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,000 always want to answer. It depends or to add some 920 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,480 caveats or some, you know, qualifications. 921 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,600 I think, I think that's I think that's really, really this is a 922 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,680 fantastic project. I mean it sounds and by the way, 923 00:52:55,680 --> 00:53:00,480 I mean you could, you could significant, I think you could 924 00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:05,960 put 1% on GDP if every single business of this kind went 925 00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:09,560 through that same exercise of just making communication the 926 00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:13,680 seem non evasive, non terrifying, comprehensible, 927 00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:18,000 helpful, friendly. Do you, do you think one of the 928 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:22,400 things I'd love to do and it's not, it's not for me to do, but 929 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,680 somebody could do it, whether it's the Consumers Association 930 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:30,120 or some other body is to have a kind of kite mark for customer 931 00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:34,320 service. So that organisations just as 932 00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:37,240 you had the Plain English campaign, which was a very good 933 00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,960 thing in the UK where all your communications could be 934 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,000 certified by the Plain English campaign. 935 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,760 If you actually took your 30 principles of customer service 936 00:53:48,240 --> 00:53:52,680 and effectively said if you match up to these criteria, you 937 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:58,320 can display a particular logo because my my terror with 938 00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:00,520 something like insurance where of course you don't really 939 00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:03,920 understand the proof of the pudding until 18 months after 940 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,200 you've bought it. If the natural assumption of the 941 00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,560 consumer is that customer service is going to be terrible 942 00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:15,640 if you, particularly if you interact online, then what we're 943 00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:20,480 seeing is the enormous, effectively an invisible lost 944 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:24,680 opportunity in lots and lots of people being unwilling to buy 945 00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:29,720 very worthwhile things like insurance simply for fear of the 946 00:54:29,720 --> 00:54:32,080 customer service nightmare that would result. 947 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:37,480 Yeah, I think there is a a place for a standard of some. 948 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,080 Kind of what? What good looks like almost 949 00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:45,920 like. Yes, exactly the which Best Buy 950 00:54:46,240 --> 00:54:49,360 and actually having because as you said, there are there are 951 00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:54,240 cases where you know, a 19 year old buying motor insurance isn't 952 00:54:54,240 --> 00:54:55,920 really going to care about the customer service. 953 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:58,960 It's a legal requirement. They can barely afford it. 954 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:01,280 They take the cheapest insurance they can. 955 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,360 And to some extent, you know, bad customer service is probably 956 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:05,920 a trade off they're willing to make. 957 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,720 But if you look at, I mean, one of the things I notice is if you 958 00:55:08,720 --> 00:55:14,200 look at an ageing population where the old disproportionately 959 00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:20,360 have the disposable wealth, generally the older you are for 960 00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,360 a very, very simple reason, which is by the way, the older 961 00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:27,080 you are, the more you value your time to an extent, OK, you know, 962 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,880 impending mortality, etcetera, etcetera. 963 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:34,360 Then actually those are people, those people who have more money 964 00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,800 to begin with are willing to pay for the promise of very good 965 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:39,400 service. Yeah. 966 00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,440 They also may be in some instances more dependent on it 967 00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,360 or more or or kind of have lived longer. 968 00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,000 So they understand what it means and when bad service is being 969 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,800 delivered what that means. So, so yeah, you have different 970 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,200 backgrounds and, and the and and we all, all companies have their 971 00:55:57,200 --> 00:56:01,480 own focus customer group that they deliver to for sure. 972 00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:05,360 I mean, if anybody ever wants to steal that idea and start a kind 973 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:09,960 of kite mark or verification mark for companies that meet 974 00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:15,200 certain criteria in customer service, I'd be absolutely 975 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,240 ecstatic if someone stole that idea. 976 00:56:17,240 --> 00:56:21,200 Because I think, you know, as I said, there is the danger that 977 00:56:21,240 --> 00:56:25,160 at the time you make a decision, price is very salient. 978 00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:30,280 Customer service isn't and consequently it will be in the 979 00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:34,160 interest of many companies to reduce price of the expense of 980 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:37,920 customer service, which is probably what the consumer is 981 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:40,000 looking for at the moment of purchase. 982 00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:43,720 But in the in the defining moment of experience, it's a 983 00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:46,520 very false economy. Yeah, exactly. 984 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,440 And and that's also why we see that customers are very happy 985 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:54,200 even after a claim situation, because that's where they get 986 00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,040 their pay back, you know, so that's, that's where we need to 987 00:56:57,040 --> 00:56:59,160 be. There's a moment that matters, 988 00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:01,560 and we need to live up to our our promises. 989 00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:04,440 So you, this has been absolutely fantastic. 990 00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:09,960 You forced me to go and actually investigate net revenue 991 00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:12,480 retention. I did meet Fred Reichelt once. 992 00:57:13,240 --> 00:57:16,080 For those of you who don't know, he was the originator when at 993 00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:17,800 Bain. I think of the Net Promoter 994 00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:21,560 score, which is the idea that recommendation, your willingness 995 00:57:21,560 --> 00:57:26,040 to recommend is a pretty reliable metric to some extent 996 00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:32,600 in terms of customer loyalty. And now the the net revenue 997 00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,840 retention thing is his effectively metric to 998 00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,520 financialize the value of an increase in that score. 999 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,480 Is that right? Yes, yes. 1000 00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,640 So his, his, his thinking is moving into that space and he 1001 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,120 even takes it further where you deduct what you spend on 1002 00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:54,360 marketing as well. But we don't, we don't use that. 1003 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:56,720 We, we stop at net revenue retention. 1004 00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:00,960 But we're very inspired by his thinking and and everything he 1005 00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,440 stands for is is very much the basis of what we think about 1006 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:10,120 loyalisation as well and and how to deliver excellence to 1007 00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,880 customers. No, that's fascinating. 1008 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,800 I mean, this is such a welcome finding for me because the 1009 00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:23,760 discovery that someone is actually trying to rebalance the 1010 00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:28,400 value of investment in retention and experience relative to 1011 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,360 acquisition. And I think you then get rid of 1012 00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:34,400 that quantification bias where you're focused not on the things 1013 00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,240 that matter, but on the things that are easy to measure, which 1014 00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,120 I, I think is I think besets a lot of businesses nowadays. 1015 00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:46,120 Of course, some, some are really, it's easy for some if 1016 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,640 you are digitally only to have these messages, you have it to 1017 00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:51,680 hand and it's easy for you to understand. 1018 00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:55,040 But more traditional businesses don't look at their business in 1019 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,960 this way. So, so then it becomes a helpful 1020 00:58:57,960 --> 00:59:01,640 tool to change behaviour. And I think that's what we are, 1021 00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,960 we are all about in our journey is how can we help the 1022 00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,560 organization change the way they act. 1023 00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:12,000 Not by telling them you need to be customer focused by by giving 1024 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:15,680 them tools and processes and structures and frameworks and 1025 00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,640 strategies that naturally takes them into a different space that 1026 00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:23,720 is more focused on the customer. And then we do the right thing 1027 00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:27,360 as a bigger organization collectively. 1028 00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,520 I mean, the most reliable metric of the health for the business 1029 00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:35,760 to some extent is customer retention in the sense that, you 1030 00:59:35,760 --> 00:59:38,440 know, there are businesses that, look, I mean, you know, the 1031 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,920 classic example would be that thing that, who was it created, 1032 00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:45,440 which was a kind of Twitter competitor called Threads. 1033 00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,560 OK. You know, you can have a 1034 00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:52,080 business that grows immensely fast, which gets everyone all 1035 00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,360 club, clubhouse, OK. There are businesses which grow 1036 00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:58,440 immensely fast because they have some sort of novelty feature 1037 00:59:58,440 --> 01:00:00,920 about them, but they're not remotely sticky. 1038 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,480 Yeah. And actually you equally have 1039 01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:08,840 businesses which grow very, very slowly but are very sticky. 1040 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:11,640 So I've been spending a lot of time talking to the, you know, 1041 01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:14,640 the electric car, the car industry about electrification. 1042 01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,160 And the point I make is that my, my presentation was entitled. 1043 01:00:18,160 --> 01:00:22,880 Don't panic because I said that they'd solved the biggest, you 1044 01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:27,000 know, the biggest issue, which is, you know, ultimately in, if 1045 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:30,320 you're looking at the next 5 to 10 years is simply that people 1046 01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,200 who buy electric cars very rarely go back. 1047 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,960 It's, it's right. Europeans, for example, resisted 1048 01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:39,800 having automatic transmission for years and years and years. 1049 01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:42,040 And they came up with all, you know, I want the sense of 1050 01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,120 control you have with a manual gearbox and so on and so forth. 1051 01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,200 And it was a very slow migration. 1052 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:51,520 But what ultimately happened was nobody who'd driven an automatic 1053 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:56,960 ever went back to a manual. And so, you know, that question 1054 01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,720 of how effectively, you know, can you create the genuine 1055 01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:02,640 stickiness and lasting behaviours. 1056 01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,120 Now there is an issue, isn't there, Which is that I suppose, 1057 01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,560 do you have the fact in insurance that you can always 1058 01:01:08,560 --> 01:01:11,920 save a bit of money by being promiscuous or have you managed 1059 01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,480 to overcome that? Because it used to be that in 1060 01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,560 certain in certain forms of insurance, you bought a new 1061 01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:22,720 customer with a massive discount and then effectively then it 1062 01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,760 then the, you know, you charge them progressively more and more 1063 01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,840 as time went on. I think that that back that 1064 01:01:28,840 --> 01:01:30,920 practice has been kind of stamped out more. 1065 01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:31,960 It's kind of been stamped out, yeah. 1066 01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,960 Start it started very much in the via the regulation in the UK 1067 01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,240 kind of pushing back on that because it was a force economy 1068 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:42,960 as well. So, so I, I think that's, that's 1069 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:46,400 again a way of the past, but but still maybe sticks in some 1070 01:01:46,400 --> 01:01:47,800 people's. Yeah, I think, I think that 1071 01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:50,600 probably lingers in people's minds because I suppose it's the 1072 01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,040 expectation that matters, not the reality. 1073 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:55,000 That's particularly true in insurance. 1074 01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,640 Well, all I can say is this has been absolutely fantastic. 1075 01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,480 I'm immensely heartened to discover there are people who 1076 01:02:00,480 --> 01:02:04,320 are taking this seriously and not only taking it seriously in 1077 01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,320 terms of, you know, investment, but actually in terms of 1078 01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:13,440 measurements and quantification. And I think I know who I'll be 1079 01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:15,720 renewing my insurance with. This sounds incredibly 1080 01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,560 happening. Well, that's the best compliment 1081 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,040 you can get. Thank you very much. 1082 01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:21,120 Thank. You very much. 1083 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,080 It's wonderful, Connie. Thank you ever so much. 1084 01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:26,400 That's a fantastic, by the way, very similar career journey to 1085 01:02:26,400 --> 01:02:28,600 my own in a way. OK, good to talk to you. 1086 01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:30,800 It's been a huge pleasure. Thanks ever so much. 1087 01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,360 Bye bye. Bye.