This is a conversation about swing thoughts, really enjoyed
this chat that I have a doctor no Russo and last week you might
have heard the podcast on swing thoughts as a kind of, a
compliation of a few different things.
But I wanted to share this unedited version talking a
little bit about his research that he's done a little bit
about the Practical aspect since he is a golf coach.
And yeah, just shared this entire thing for y'all to follow
along is a good chat. I enjoyed it.
Lots of good stuff in here. Let's get to it.
You are listening to the golf Science Lab podcast.
My name is Corey Walker, and I'm on a mission to figure out how
to improve the way that we learn and get better at golf.
I've been able to travel all over the world talking to the
leaders in the industry from instructors, to researchers, to
Golfers themselves learning how they're getting better at golf
and what that means for you. I want to start I guess.
Like, how would you define Swing thoughts, what is Swing
thoughts? What does that mean to you
swing? Thoughts is from a research
perspective. It's going to be, you know,
mechanical cues that happened during your swing, but I mean
for us as golfers are, so just anything that's going on in your
mind related to your swing, while you hit which, you know,
which is a is a distinction. Because often a swing thought,
you know, is often just a feel and some kind of vague, vague
idea of a feeling of a movement where I other swing thoughts.
Obviously, A lot more bulky and cumbersome to deal with and
technically focused. Could you kind of maybe lay out
a few different types of Swing thoughts?
Like you know like thinking about internally on your you
know your movements are a could you kind of maybe share some
examples and different types of thoughts that people can have in
terms of how we might categorize them?
Yeah, yeah because one, you know, one swing thought is not
the same as, you know, as another from a whole number of
perspectives. Tips.
So if you look at the the different types of Swing
thoughts, you've obviously got in the way that you've alluded
to there. The internal external focus of
attention, which is I'm sure most of your listeners will be
fairly aware of that, which is a brilliant line of research.
So internal Focus being on your body and how you kind of control
that and external being on more the effect of the movement.
So in the golf swing that's going to be predominantly the
club and the club face the idea there being that you're you
know, if you're focusing on the external factors, IE the club
face, then you are just then allowing your body to in your
brain to self organize the movement in order to coordinate
the club face. In that way, you're going to be
much more automatic. The research, which suggests a
lot less prone to her to Breaking Down Under Pressure as
well. So in this huge advantages of
that external Focus well as internal Focus, you know, you've
got to really think about how the body moves and that may not
be In a way that relates to the to the task.
Now you might be thinking a lot about your backswing when you're
chipping and that may give you a fantastic backswing but not
necessarily the right distance on the shot or the strike Etc.
So that's yeah, that's the internal external Focus but
there's lots of other categories as well.
So then you've got the kind of part movement or holistic
movement. So you know how much you break
break the movement down is you know, it's too difficult as
well, isn't it? I mean if I'm just thinking on
the course about Like though, turn turn back turn through.
I mean that's that's that that's thought pretty much covers the
whole the whole swing. But in very broad terms where as
you know, if I broke in my swing down into where my elbow points
at the top of the backswing, and maybe another checkpoint two,
well, yeah, that they are two very precise and distinct my
linemen. So, I'm trying to create, I
mean, that is going to break down the fluidity of the motion,
but that's not to say it's, you know, it's completely wrong if
you've practiced while thinking about those two.
To those to swing thoughts and it and that that thought process
has been chunked in is something that you can now deal with quite
easily than that may work for you very nicely but certainly
not you know as a new swing thought on the day I would I
would keep it very Broad and ideally have a whole movement.
Focus would be a lot better under pressure.
So we've defined swing thoughts and to find a few types of Swing
thoughts. Could you lay out your, your
research that you did? Well, I still like to that with
that, as a fairly analytic or chapped and as a young player I
would, it's, I would choke something horribly in
competition. That, I mean, I could shoot 20
shots more than I did in the practice round.
I mean properly choking and when that, when that would happen,
And I would be absolutely riddled with swing thoughts and
trying to control every aspect of the movement.
And that's, you know, that's something that pressure does to
talk to a lot of us. It makes us want to kind of
control and make sure that we don't we don't mess up and I'm
sure a lot of your, a lot of your listeners will relate to
that. And then, you know, and as
things progressed and I became a coach, I got involved in a
brilliant Academy, and their whole kind of philosophy was
about, you know, moving fluidly and not.
Not thinking too much about about the technique and as much
Is no, I would say, that's that's fairly limited.
It does have huge benefits. So the research was had this
fantastic Intervention, which basically stop people think
about their swing other than a few very basic holistic,
thoughts. And the idea was you would you
get yourself, Focus behind the ball, have your practice swing,
his walk into the ball, plant your feet and hit it.
I mean not not in there. Completely Happy Gilmore way but
you know, you've got enough time to set yourself and then get
moving. But what you don't have enough
time to do is to Stand over the ball, stop think, worried and
engaging. All the kind of self instruction
that would typically go on. When you when you're standing on
the First Tee that intervention, I used to use a lot and I still
use it. But I mean I used to use a lot
when used with the right person at the right time, which is
unbelievably transformational. I mean, I've seen people who are
at their wit's end with the game.
All of a sudden, move fluidly and balance powerfully, and the
strike is entirely different to what they would have.
Previously just by being forced into that state of of
automaticity and low swings for. So those results were undeniable
and I've seen them time and time again.
But I was also seeing golfers who I would, I would I had use
the same kind of intervention with it just didn't work and in
fact it made it made them worse and I've had to kind of back out
very quickly. So now after a few years of
doing this, I mean I could see there was something with them.
So I wanted to I wanted to obviously pursue that and And
get some, get some research done and there wasn't much research
down on it at the time, I mean, any research done on
automaticity. So that's that, you know, not
thinking about your swing in golf is all done on patting
patting is. So it is a, you know, completely
different task mechanically and obviously.
So we were going into new territory really with the full
swing that they've been no, no, no studies.
On the full swing and swing thoughts previously.
So, there we go. I'm in the aim was really, if
I'm honest for me to find out why this And how I can make it
work with more people and then revolutionize the way that we
learn and play golf. But as the study panned out, it
turned out to be a lot more complicated than that.
So the first of five studies was on, I mean, we looked, we looked
at the we looked at that that intervention under pressure,
non-pressure and compared the two and then what we found
initially and bear in mind, this is with fairly good players.
I mean, these were all six handicap and below and we found
that there as a group there wasn't any any A difference as
to when they were, you know, using the intervention or not
using the intervention but you know, and incidentally, we were,
we were monitoring and checking whether it had reduced their
swing for which was confirmed. I mean, the intervention worked
on that front but their performance hadn't hadn't
changed which was, you know, somewhat disappointing because I
really thought I was onto something with this drill.
So you know over the next few years we did lots of variations
of the drill. We gave people time to go away
and practice it and get used to it because it was slightly harsh
being forced to stand to stand on the tee quickly and It it,
but even after practice, so there was no group Wise Wise,
some results from a performance standpoint.
So, you know, it's actually not as we look further through the
data and, I mean, it was pretty clear that some people were
getting better when they were forced to not think about their
swing and they were getting better in a very obvious and you
know, impressive way some people's performance got a bit
worse. So that's that's why the whole
kind of groupwise average never improved.
So then we had to start digging around as to try and find out
why some people are getting better and why some people
aren't and that took us down the route of looking at personality
traits. Yeah I think that it changes I
don't think that like you know I've played good golf with all
different types of Swing thoughts.
I feel like in it's not necessarily what the thought is.
It's kind of how it makes me feel or You know, kind of the
state that it puts me in everything there's danger.
So I mean, I would imagine that you like, many of us would have
had the experience of playing some really good golf.
And then on reflection thinking, you know, crikey, I didn't I
didn't actually think about my swing any point in that round.
Yes, absolutely. And that's fairly common, isn't
it? You know, we will look back on
our best rounds of golf from and that's, that's the case.
So I mean, like if you're like me, you'd have then thought.
Okay, well, maybe perhaps the next round then I'm going to I'm
going to commit to not thinking about My swing.
Have you tried that? Yes, how's that worked out?
Not always great because you miss a shot, he missed a couple
shots and then you then you start to think about it.
Yeah so did I so I mean you know that was a place I was in for a
long time, you know all the advice and the sport Science
would say don't think about your swing.
So now I'm thinking okay, does that mean?
I just need to be, you know, more disciplined and and keep
that kind of process of not thinking about my swing, or is
there something may be flawed in the in the logic, you know?
And if in if things are going wrong in the balls you know
going offline just not thinking about your swing isn't isn't
going to bring it back, is it? No, I would.
I would suggest anyway. So so yeah.
It's a really, it's a really nuanced term area.
You know, it isn't isn't just one.
One thing works for everybody and not even the same thing
works for the same person, you know, from day to day, the same
type of thought won't always work but there aren't.
Yeah. There are some some really good
and strong areas that week that we can take from this.
So it's like just going back to my search but we did find them.
Was that people with a larger working memory capacity.
So basically, the ability to hold onto information in their
head and process at the same time, which is what we're doing
when we're swinging with swing thoughts.
These people did a lot better with the intervention, so these
people were able to walk up to the ball, put their feet in and
hit it fairly quickly. Those people tended to get
better with the intervention, those with a small working
memory capacity or smaller didn't do so.
Well, we also looked at other cognitive traits, such as
whether people were predominantly, Lee had a
processing style of being auditory or more visual sir.
So the Oddity people were with thinking more kind of verbal
terms. Lots of self talk anyway, and
the visual people would obviously thinking more in
pictures and again there was quite a big difference there.
The the order of the the verbalizes of that were called
The Odyssey people found that found the intervention.
Again a lot more a lot more helpful.
So I mean, those were just just to personality traits.
I'm sure there's a whole host of personality traits that would
Link in with Not to mention all the different types of Swing
thoughts where you are with your swing.
I mean, you know, it is complex. Hey, I just want to jump in here
real quick. If you're enjoying this
conversation and you enjoy nulls kind of outside the box coaching
philosophy and, you know, his whole approach which I think is
just so good based on his research in the way that he
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are learning effectively and practicing effectively.
So anyways, I thought that you all would enjoy it and Knowles
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live.com / and no land OE, L, check out what he is up to, I
can't recommend it enough. Anyways, let's go back to the
chat. And that's the thing with spring
collection, I want I might I might have a swing Vlog because
I'm changing my swing and let's face it.
If you're going to change your swing it and try and improve
your going to need swing thoughts, I mean there are there
are ways to improve your swing without swing thoughts, but they
will take forever and be hugely frustrating.
So you know, at some point you are going to need to get
technical and think about your swing.
And that's a that's a big challenge for for coaches and on
how to how to manage that level of Swing thought and cognitive
load during the lesson. If we were to it, like, kind of
maybe download or Summarize your study into a few sentences.
You know, the cliff notes for somebody here, what would be
those cliff notes for them as a golfer thinking about their
swing thoughts? What do they need to know?
Would you say they wouldn't need to know what works for them?
I mean that's probably the biggest One external is always
always going to be helpful. I would suggest not necessarily
for a long time learning. But I mean if your ball is going
offline, focusing on on controlling the clubface and how
you deliver that? I mean that will Almost
guarantee most significant Improvement without thinking
about how your, how you're having to deal with it and
deliver it on a more technical manner just that focus on
delivering a square clubface in the same way that you know, when
you're playing in the wind you know good players report of of
having far less swing thoughts. Go, they just can't deal with
all the, all the complexities of the Swing.
They just focus on what is absolutely critical to the shot.
Which is, is going to be clubface.
Delivery in terms of obviously Loft in the wind and also face a
got so so that's one. I mean, Focus on the things that
really matter. So externally that would be,
that we clubface, balanced fluidity, big, big holistic
thoughts. Like, you know, turn back, turn
through. Stay in Balance, would always
Trump smaller detailed elements of the swing.
For, you know, everybody listening, how would you suggest
that? They go find a better swing
fighter, they go find, you know, their next swing thought of
there any exercises, or any, any kind of ways that you help help
students do that. Well, I mean, that's, that's
down to where they are with their, with their technique,
isn't it? I mean couldn't give a blanket
idea there. I mean, Prince, what they're
trying to achieve in their movement, what I will say is,
you know, the trends I've seen our high handicap players are
far more ball. The night handicap players.
I mean, most professionals would report not really looking at the
ball and certainly, not thinking about it, a great deal, which is
in massive contrast to to weekend, golfers who have a
strong bull focus, and then you can see in the movement, which
case, I mean, the thought to just turn through and end in
good balance. I think is brilliant.
I mean, having any thoughts that are Beyond impact?
I think I generally very good and far more helpful than
positioning of the The Club at the top of the backswing.
A try and trying to get to a good finish is always a good
thought to have. Do you recommend that people go
through your that flow intervention that you used?
Absolutely a scent definitely give it a go on the on the
driving range. Like I say I mean it's not for
absolutely everybody some people will ya just completely love it.
And definitely I mean I've played tournaments with it, I
mean I loved it so much. I mean bearing in mind in I was
super analytical and you know, paralysis by analysis mean that
that was me and especially under So so I used to use it in
practice and then in tournaments, I just committed
myself to stick into that process and not, you know, not
trying to control every part of my movement and it was
incredible. I really started to move more
athletically and enjoyed it. And in fact, somebody somebody
at the weekend came over, somebody had never met came over
and shook my hand and he said he bought my app like years ago and
he said the one thing he took from it was that drill and he
said I've enjoyed my game so much more ever since no doing
just that drill and he literally plays with it as a sum.
Guy never met before. That's amazing.
Could you walk through it, step by step?
So someone could do it if they're just listening to this.
Yeah, yeah. So this is called the flow drill
and the aim is that, you know, you're standing behind the ball.
I had no say, three three paces and you do all your thinking in
your preparation there. So you're not being mindless,
you're doing your shot planning, you're picking your Target, have
your practice swing there and you know, in your practice ring,
have a maybe to swing thoughts but then align yourself behind
the Hind. The line of the ball and the
Target. And then once you commit to to
walking in, it's like putting your lead foot on a conveyor
belt. It the thing is moving and
there's nothing was going to stop you now other than putting
your feet in and setting the club moving.
So the big thing is they're not to worry too much about where
you're aiming and your ball position Etc.
Because that's that's now you know, creating all that internal
checking and self-referencing, put your feet down, get
reasonably comfortable, and the moment that Club touches the
ground, near the ball, you take it away and begin to swim.
What about how swing thoughts changed so much, you know, even
high level players on tour etcetera?
You know, talk about using a lot of different swing thoughts.
They don't seem to have much longevity of using the same
thought for, I don't know a year, right?
Anecdotally? You don't hear that pretty much
ever at least, I have it. Nobody will probably come back
around once it, I mean, yeah, I mean, if it works, it works, if
it doesn't, if it works, it stays in the back, like a Patty
was both it stays in the bag for a while and then gets forgotten
and And then comes back again. I mean anecdotally.
That is interesting though, mean all the information on not
thinking about your swing, and then there's a lot of that and
there's a lot of sports psychologists who do do suggest
you don't think about your swing anecdotally, the tall players a
lot of tour players, think, a lot about their swing.
I mean, I have it on on, fairly good information that Justin,
Rose has 3 or 4 different swing thoughts on every swing.
And in fact, you can see and its preparation', you know, the
amount of processing that goes through in the planning of his
movement. It's a phenomenal.
I saw an article with McIlroy who said that he needs to have
at least a couple of Swing thoughts, if nothing else to
keep him focused on the process and not so much on the, you
know, the results and where he is in the tournament and Etc.
So, yeah. Swing thoughts, do a do a lot of
different things for different people?
Whether it is a mechanical guide and literally a movement queue
or whether it's just a comfort and a distraction from other
less helpful thoughts. Just curious on your
perspective. Why do you think this idea of
you can't think about your golf swing has become so like It's
like a sports site kind of Pop content that is spread so
rapidly and everybody kind of thinks is true.
I think because it can what I mean, firstly I want a very
simple skill, I mean it's a pretty it's a pretty good way to
go. So for example puting the
mechanics are putting stroke are pretty simple, really?
And in which case I would suggest don't think about your
swing is that is a good piece of advice.
Given that, you know, the task is that to judge the speed and
the curve except you didn't that don't want to be thinking about
controlling your elbows and Etc. So yeah.
Well, none mechanically simple exercise.
You want to be fully automatic, certainly something that is
repetitive. So from a research point of
view, you know, a lot of the research is done on a 6-foot
Putt in a lab that you hit, you know, 50 balls at a time.
And then you do another 50 balls, you do want to be
completely automatic in that scenario.
That's where the research is coming from, but it's not mean
that's not the same as hitting hitting a, you know, a 3-iron
into into a crosswind. It was a bull, blow your feet.
Is it? I mean, that's an entirely
different Different tasks. So there's that there's the
research which is, you know, a little bit unrealistic but also
that experience we talked about earlier.
I mean we've all played great Golf and look back and felt
cracking. I was in that sense of complete
flow where I didn't have to in have to think there was kind of
space and time and I was totally into the task, you know, and
that is flow. But you know as we mentioned
earlier, not thinking about your swing isn't going to get you
into a state of flow. It is just part of flow that,
you know, is obviously recognized.
I think that's the big thing. We play Great Golf.
When we're, you know, No, so when we play golf, we often not
thinking about how swing too much, but yeah, the reverse is
not true. So if someone's listening, they
should try the flow drill and they should try out our familiar
with vision 54, but like, in their book, be a player or their
app, they have a ton of different cues, you know, are
Concepts that you can go out and try as far as swing thoughts,
which I think are just awesome and try to find, you know,
something, there potentially that really strikes home for you
or gets you in a good place in any other kind of a Is that you
think people should take or well, I'm just going to sound
the pressure. I mean it would be a really good
exercise just to be aware of how their swing thoughts are
changing when they're under pressure.
I mean, typically Under Pressure, we are likely to
control more think more and, you know, and protect.
So you know, it would be fairly normal to be more guided stiff,
have more swing thoughts, under pressure and that's definitely a
trend to try and back. Try and be more free-flowing and
more trusting as the as the pressure grows.
Hey, thank you so much for listening.
You've got to check out what normal is up to he has some
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