What kind of putter do you think about when you think about
broomstick or long putters taking off over the last few
years? Well, you think about lab
putters. You think about.
Adam Scott, Lucas Glover, all these guys that have adopted lab
sweeper putters. Today we're sitting down with
Sam Hahn. He is the CEO at lab and has
been a part of all of these conversations with Adam and
these guys as they've switched to the sweeper style of putter.
So I thought it'd be awesome today to learn from him
everything that has gone on in this journey from the first one
they made-up into right now, what they're saying, what's most
popular, what are people buying, and what does he think the
future of sweeper putters is like?
Plus, he's very interesting and controversial.
Thoughts on armlock putting? So great episode.
We are in a full series on alternative putting styles.
Make sure to subscribe whether you're on YouTube, Spotify,
Apple Podcast, whatever it is I'd.
Appreciate it if you followed. Along we have so much
interesting stuff to come. We have great coaches and
equipment, people and players. They're going to keep telling
the story of why are more and more people switching to
alternative putting styles. All right, let's get into this
with Sam. OK, I, I just want to start
with, we'll just go back to when you first first heard about a
sweeper. Someone asked you to make a
sweeper. Like what?
What's your first first memory of that that you have?
Back in 2019, the first kind of big break on the On the tour was
with Adam Scott. Adam Scott played with Kelly
Slater and used a conventional version of the Directive Force
2.1 for, I don't know, probably four or five months.
Yeah, used that red one right with.
Like the red one? Yeah, it was in the masters
through 2 days and using that putter, yeah, ultimately went,
you know, got cold with it and asked us if you if we could make
him a sweeper. And at the time we didn't have
Harold like this. So we were originally balancing
them with just a a port here and we were putting sand and
tungsten in there and then over here and we didn't have any of
the weights on the bottom or anything.
So adding weight to it was just not feasible.
So what Bill did was like basically made a sheet of lead
tape. I mean it truly was about that
thick covering the bottom of the putter and then underneath kind
of the top layer, which he did this beautiful job of making it
look all smooth and you know, really wide thing and razor cut
and everything. He balanced it, you know, so he
had to balance it first before covering it with like this, you
know, smooth layer. So it wasn't all jacked up on
the bottom and it took him forever.
He made like two or three of them for for Adam to try.
He didn't like him and you know, just what he had used prior.
The DF just had way too much onset.
And so at the time, the only two models that we had were the DF
2.1 and we had the, IT was actually blade one, which very
quickly turned into the B2 and the B2 we realized that between,
because it was such a symmetrical design, kind of
blowing it up and shrinking it down was like nothing.
We realized we can mess with that one, particularly because
we could use brass too. So it was really heavy.
So we so we started prototyping those.
And so I had never used a long powder in my entire life.
And the 1st B2, we called it the bomber, the the 1st B2 bomber
that we made in a sweeper produced, you know, like we were
like, I'd never used one before and all I cared about was just
making them feel good. There was some pretty good
timing that happened as well around shafts, which we should
talk about. But prior any long putter had
just used a ski pole shaft. And while they were, you know,
they were heavy, they were heavy enough to, you know, to do it,
but they were still steel and they were really flexible.
And it's something that does make long putters really hard to
use. LA Golf had just started, had
just acquired OSIC her matrix and and they were making shafts
for Bryson at the time that were just, you know, psychotically
rigid. And and so we got a few of those
to put in in some of these and it made a huge difference.
So the so I had AAB 2 long with an OSIC 180 gram shaft in it.
That was, you know, like rebar and what followed for me, Well,
well, first I'm like using it and testing it and we're trying
to make them feel good and we're putting grooves in them and
we're changing the weight and we're, you know, trying to
figure it out. And like I, you know, through
this kind of two 3-4 weeks of, of prototyping these, it like
occurred to me, I'm like, I don't think I've missed a putt
inside of 10 feet in like a month.
And, and I didn't really think through a technique or what I
was doing. My only concern personally was
making sure that nobody ever accused me of anchoring.
And So what I was doing was holding it like this so that it
was so far away from my chest that nobody would ever, you
know, do it. And I was like, and I was like
this. So I'm putting so well, my
friends are calling me the janitor, you know, just like it
was a thing, like it was stupid. And my speed actually wasn't
great with that one because it was just, it had such low Moi
that anytime I missed it, I was coming up, you know, 8 feet
short and it didn't matter. I made the 8 footer every single
time. Like it was just absolutely
uncanny. So Fast forward about, you know,
7-8 months, I'm committed to this putter.
I am so and I'm making everything play with a guy named
Craig winner. Craig's one of the higher ups at
the USGA and he's he's the fellow who's on NBC like when
they have a rules question at the US Open.
That's him. He's great dude.
He's he's from around here and he was he used to work for the
Oregon Golf Association. He was just in time visit.
He were playing some golf, put on the 13th hole and I'm kicking
his butt and I make AI make a 15 footer or something like that,
you know, putting the way I do. And he comes up and he goes, he
goes like that. He's like, so you've been
cheating this whole time. Like, what the hell are you
talking about? I'm not even close.
And apparently the fact that my forearm was touching my rib cage
below the elbow meant that I was anchoring and I was so pissed
like, and you know, so, so that seven months of unbelievable
putting was illegal. I was, I was going against the
rules and I had no idea. I just thought the putter
couldn't touch you anywhere. And for me that I actually for
the most part ended my, my sweeping career.
I, I've, I've dabbled here and there and, you know, tried to
get back into it and haven't quite gotten there, but.
Wait, I had no idea. So I have her with with an arm
lock putter, right? Like it can't go past the elbow,
right? Correct.
But that also is with any kind of club like you can't have.
Your You can't anchor anything to your body below the elbow.
So so so. This is fine.
This is not. Yeah.
Or if I'm holding it up here, I can't put my forearm against my
rib cage like this. And so like, what upsets, you
know what, what I mean? They, they just whiffed on that
rule so bad, which by the way, I said to Craig when he said that
I was like, man, they whiffed on that so, so hard.
He was like, you mean we, I was like easy.
But like, I know a dude who I don't know if you can see me
here, my friend Raj like has the weirdest body and like 100% he
puts conventionally, but 100% like his forearms are touching
his his body and he just, you know, makes a body turn.
So is that illegal? You know, like technically I
guess it is. But anyway, yes, you cannot.
And that's where Bernhard takes a lot of crap is like he's not
anchoring. Like for anybody that thinks
that he is like I've been up close and personal with the guy.
I've watched him play competitive rounds.
I've watched him on the practice screen.
He wears A baggy shirt. Yes, like it.
I know it rattles around and they're like, I assure you the
guy is not touching his body. However, what you will see a lot
of times when he goes through, you'll see if you look at my, my
forearm here, you'll see it like it's not there when he starts.
But on the way through, you know, sometimes it'll, it'll
make contact, which I don't know if that's against the rules or
not, but yeah, it's, it's a bit of a mess.
OK, so your first experience with the sweeper idea was like
personally you're like, oh, this is cool.
Like this is this is this is interesting.
Then it faded away. And only as a means by by which
to prototype for Adam. Like I never never would have
occurred to me or us to spend that much time screwing around
with longs. So the main challenge with
making one was the weight. Why is weight important with a
putter like this? So when when you know when they
get really long, it's it's it's just worth trying to to feel at
some point. But if you just put a normal
kind of 350 to 380 gram head at the end of a shaft that's, you
know, 44 inches long or 47 inches long or whatever it is,
it's just crazy light. Just doesn't, the head just
completely disappears on you and you just, you don't know where
it's at. Now personally, I think that the
industry standards which have them up around 500 grams and I
think that's too heavy personally.
But it's different for everybody.
It's no different than then then with conventional putters or
some people like them light and some people like them heavy.
The difference is the actual number of grams that makes it
feel light versus heavy is just more because it's a bigger
putter, it's a bigger head, it's a bigger everything.
You know, like Adam's putter, Adam Scott's putter is 508
grams, I want to say 512 or something like that.
And then Charles Schwartzel's using one that I want to say is
at 450 O you know, a 60 gram difference, which in a
conventional putter, 60 grams different in either direction
from stock is unusable, but with a sweeper, not quite as much.
Yeah. So they they got it.
They got to take on more weight than a conventional putter for
sure. Minimum 425.
Otherwise you just can't feel where they are.
What's like the normal it Adams? I'm assuming you're talking
about the the mesmax. What's a normal mesmax like
conventional putter weight? Depends on length, but they're
going to be right around 370 OK. Got it so there's a little
comparison 370 to 512 something like that would be the
difference. OK.
The the other challenge that you mentioned of it was the the
shaft of like right the old school way of having a steel
shaft very heavy and like now you have all these graphite
options available. Was that like do you feel like
why this can now be more of a good option is because. 100% I
think it's well, So what I've noticed as I watch people who
try them over the years is like less so lately now that it's
been a bit more normalized. But like when I was, when I was
using 1, you know, people would come up and they'd literally
like give it one wiggle and be like, no, no, no, that's not for
me. And, and I think that the shaft
had a lot to do with that, like when we were prototyping first
with ski poles before the LA came along, you can feel it.
You can just feel so much play in the shaft and feel his head
wobbling around and it's heavy and it's cumbersome and it's
just, it was just weird to use. I think that the carbon fiber,
you know, innovations in shafts around long putters and stuff
like that is a huge part of the reason that a normal app, you
know, a normal player can tolerate them.
When you're dealing with the, the flexible ones.
Now all the sudden timing is really important when you've got
a flexible shaft and your your stroke timing, your transition
timing, all that stuff. And I think that made them that
much harder to use for the average golfer.
Now with these just, you know, ramrod stiff carbon fiber
shafts, you can, you know, feel where the head is a bit more and
have a little bit more control of it.
I think that's part of what's helped it the mainstream itself.
How just to try to understand these, these new kind of shafts
that they're using, are they like stiffer than an X stiff
driver shaft, like infinitely more stiffer or like was that
ever an idea? Like we're just going to throw
it an X stiff into this and see if it works.
So take take long times out of the equation for a second.
Like what what we know for sure is, is that from a performance
standpoint, I wouldn't say this is 100%, but damn close call it
95% of people are going to perform better, particularly
from long range with a stiffer Potter shaft shaft do flex and
they do recover. And and kind of timing that up
when there's a lot of play, particularly in the tip can be
challenging for people and creates a lot of miss hits and
and goofiness like that. And this isn't like new
knowledge. However, if you just took an
X100 and, you know, tipped it 2 inches and, and put it in your
Newport, like, it just feels like crap.
Like they're just, they're just so rigid and like the auditory
and the, the tactile response is it's just not good.
It just doesn't feel good enough.
And so historically, Potter shafts have kind of tried to
find some balance between, you know, soft enough that they feel
good and are responsive and stiff enough that you know that
they're not noodles. Now most companies used to go
the other direction and make them like noodles because if
you're not putting from anything longer than 20 feet, a soft
shaft feels awesome. Just in the same way that when
you pick up, you know, your sister's club or, you know, a
ladies flex or junior flex, something like you, you, you
take that one swing at the driving range like, oh, I felt
really good, you know, but it's not actually sustainable because
it, you know, the dispersion is all over the place.
It's no different with putter shafts.
So the ski pole was there in, in, in, in some of the long
putter guys like what's his name?
Scott McCarron has this like very specific ski pole that he
used that was very stiff, not stiffer than the carbon stuff,
but still very stiff. And and he and he was adamant
that we use those whenever we build them.
He's got like a stash of like 50 of them left because nobody
makes a ski pole anymore. But so, yeah, the ski poles were
kind of the only option for for heads that were that heavy.
And it was a specially made shaft because they were long,
because most of the long putters when they first started coming
out were well over 45 inches. They were, you know, you know,
some up in the 50 range, they were 50 inches long.
So there was no such thing as a 50 inch long driver shaft or
iron shaft or whatever. So this was, these were made
just for these putters. And yeah, they were made out of
steel and, you know, save on cost or whatever and
inconsistencies. The walls weren't thick enough
because if they got any thicker, the shaft would be too heavy.
And there was just they, you know, they're, they were,
there's always so many places they could go until carbon fiber
came along. Got it.
So what was the first like first sweeper putter that you had
success went with? What was the what was the first
aha moment of like? Oh, we might be on to something.
So we knew even when Bill was putting, you know, a blanket of
lead tape on the bottom of a 2.1 that the technology lent itself
brilliantly to the method. I mean, it's perfect.
It's a perfect match made in heaven, fellow playing upright
lie angle, very little face rotation.
I mean, it's it was just perfect.
We also at the same time recognize that that they were
that the DF 2.1 was just a little bit too onset for most
people, particularly for people that were already using
sweepers, which we felt at the time was our market.
We weren't, we had no intention of like making, you know, like,
like making a push to get people who weren't interested in a long
putter interested in a long putter.
That wasn't part of the plan at all.
So the bomber looked better. You know, it had very little
onset. And you know, before we we came
on here, you and I were talking about that, that the the ping
banana. I forget what the what it's
called, but you know, it was kind of in that same vein, just
a very, very simple putter weight was up, caught it out of
the middle. It felt good, but it was the Moi
was just so poor and the off center strikes were so harsh and
brutal that it never really took.
It wasn't an you know, and and and then you know, Adam stopped
using the 2.1. He went back to a Cameron long.
And so just kind of in the back of our heads, we always wanted
to figure out something for Adam.
So we started work on the Mez in late 2019.
I want to say maybe early 2020. And it was a little putter like
the, the Mez 1, not the Mez Max, the Mez 1 is, it's a tiny little
thing. Kevin Martin, who's one of our
engineers and at the time was the engineer.
I mean, he was, you know, the whole, he was our entire R&D
department in one, you know, he and I were talking and we just,
wouldn't it be nice if we can figure out to make one of these
for Adam. So Kevin, you know, did some CAD
work, blew the thing up and, you know, had to move some stuff
around to make room for more weight.
So we could, you know, load it up with mostly 18g tungsten
weights. And lo and behold, he was able
to to to prototype the the Mez XL we were calling it at the
time. And then it eventually, you
know, morphed into the Mez Max Quick sidebar, it was only
intended to be for arm locks and sweepers.
And then Liam Bedford, who's works there, you know, does all
the tour builds and all that stuff.
He was just screwing around one day and made one with a
conventional length and weight and all the stuff.
And that's what gave birth to the Mez Max as a conventional
offering, but neither here nor there.
Anyway, so we make this Mez XL and it's just raw aluminum and
pretty rugged looking and and then we sent it to Adam and
never heard from him and like summer.
And then it would have been like probably two or three months
later, out of the blue, he calls and he's like, you know, I
demeaned to catch up with you. You know, I want you to know
that this Meslong that you've that you guys have made is the
best performing putter I've ever used, period.
And this was like late fall or like November, I think when he
goes to, to the Middle East to play a bit.
And that was the first time he, he putted with it.
And he was putting with this shitty raw prototype that was,
you know, raw aluminum scratches really easy.
I mean, it looks like hell, like it was just this, it was a piece
of crap. And we so then we're like, oh
wow, you like it. So now we make like 6 of them
with different shafts and different configurations and
different whatever. Ship it to Dubai and he never
got it because Dubai customs is a mess.
But anyway, that was kind of the beginning of the the journey
with him. And then once he was kind of in,
then we started getting some real feedback, you know, like,
you know, I mean, here's a guy that's been using long putters
for, you know, 10 years at least at the time.
And and then he really helped us, you know, kind of drill down
and make these things awesome. Wow, that's amazing.
OK, so he starts using the the meson Max and then I guess did
did that just kind of immediately snowball because
people just started asking like hey, what is this thing?
How do I get one? And then it just kind of started
going from there. Was that the?
Gist, I mean, first of all, he putted really well with it, you
know, So yes, there started being some inquiries and we'd
sell a few here and there to Adam Scott fans.
But again, we didn't think there was any opportunity to expand
the sweeper market. We pretty much figured that
anybody who uses 1 uses 1 and that's those, that's the only
addressable market is people that are in their two balls or,
you know, whatever else. So there wasn't like a huge, you
know, push for this thing other than in the drop down menu on
the custom side. It was an option.
And but we, you know, we would sell a few.
I, I wish I still had the numbers off the top of my head.
I used to have I'll be able to figure it out.
But we I want to say so. So yeah, on tour wasn't really
taking other than guys that you'd already used it.
There was some Champions Tour guys that reached out and wanted
to try them and, you know, did pretty well, but like nobody was
like converting to them. And then as, as the story goes,
Lucas Glover's agent walked out to one of our reps and said just
make one just like Adam Scott's for Lucas.
And Lucas was at a point where he was either going to start
putting left-handed or he was going to try, you know, the long
putter. He he gets the putter, he he
works with it for not that long, goes and plays in the US Open
qualifier, shoot 63 in the first round, even in the second round
and ends up in a playoff. And I had heard that Lucas had
got this putter. I didn't work with him.
And all this was all Liam. And that night, golf's longest
day, you know, the, all the, the, you know, local qualifiers
and everything. I, I, I, I turn on Golf Channel
and the very first thing is Lucas Glover missing an 18 inch
putt with a mesmax sweeper to lose out in the playoffs.
I'm like, yeah, well, there goes Lucas and, you know, assuming
we'd never see it again. And and then apparently he
called Liam that night and said like, dude, I am in.
And because, you know, he missing 18 inch putts was not
something he was wasn't terribly used to at the time.
And meanwhile through the rest of the day, he made a ton.
And so he was stoked from that moment forward.
He didn't finish outside the top 6 for the next 5 weeks and then
1 twice, you know, in the, in the, in the FedEx Cup playoffs
in, in 2023, won two in a row. So I, I could be wrong on this,
but I'm pretty sure I've got it right to.
So that was in early August that he won back-to-back.
I want to say that between June, January 1 and July 31st of 2023
total, I think that we had sold like 200 sweepers over the
course of those seven months. And then we sold 2500 the
following Monday, followed by about 1000 a day for like the
next 10 days, you know, like it just was sweeper madness, you
know, and and I think, you know, it's just because of how well
documented his struggles were. You know, poor guy that one
Putty had for 59 at Greensboro and in 2021 is like, you know,
on everybody's, you know, top ten, all time greatest whiff,
you know, putts. And so everybody knew how bad he
was putting. And then to see, you know, a guy
come from relative obscurity at the time to winning to, you
know, to winning back-to-back tournaments.
I mean, you know, everybody's like, I think I better give that
a try. And I think that part of it too
was like, you know, the shaft and the cooler looking head and
lab being kind of a cool thing. Like all the sudden it wasn't
just like super Yippy 65 plus year old golf dorks that we're
using sweepers. Like he kind of made it look
cool. And then and then combine that
with Adam, right? So now there's Lucas and Adam
who are both in this incredibly athletic posture and their
strokes look like good versus, you know, kind of the dumpy old
guys that are standing straight up and you know, it doesn't look
particularly graceful or anything.
I think those two guys, Lucas and Adam, like all the sudden
kind of made it, you know, a little bit more mainstream.
Yeah, I, I find it fascinating that it was like it took both of
them and kind of like to get the whole thing going, but then it
was those wins. And maybe it was because, like
we all just felt like this like, oh, man, like I'm kind of a
crappy putter. And like, you know, he did it.
Maybe I can do it too. You know, maybe it was that like
relatability and empathy that we all were like, you know, I'm,
I'm in on this. For the record, I think I, I had
one before he did. So I, I just want to get that on
the, on the public public document.
So I did not, I was not part of the trend.
I was pre trained. You're not.
You're not a bandwagoner, not a. Bandwagon I.
Mean, I think, yeah, I think that he I mean, in general, like
any alternative to anything that is traditional in golf just
takes a lot of shit, you know, like, and it's so funny, you
know, you know, we especially, you know, here in Lavland where,
you know, we arrived on the market with the world's ugliest
putter and in like there isn't there is not a single iconic
game changing technology in golf that has ever arrived on the
market as anything other than the ugliest thing that anybody
had ever seen, with the possible exception of the OR with the
exception of the four pieces fall when graphite chest came
around. Like, no, I'm never using those.
You don't need all that as the steel's just fine.
I worked for my grandfather, worked for my dad and it works
for me, for Simmons. You know, the Big Bertha came
out and people were just like, I will never, ever use that as
long as I live. I'll never put that monstrosity
in my bag. The ping answer, you know, which
70 years later is the standard of beauty.
Carson Soheim sat on the side of PGA Tour putting greens with
people saying the exact same stuff to him that they did to
us. I would sooner 3 putt than put
that thing in my bag. And I think it's the same thing
with longs. I think the reason long putters
and sweepers have taken longer to sort of catch on as a as a
legitimate and viable option for people is that there were so few
people using them. They weren't particularly
available and there wasn't much success, you know, like because
there was such a small piece, you know, pool of people giving
it a try. And the people who did give it a
try probably didn't try it for very long, you know, before they
were throwing in the towel on it.
I think you Add all that up and that's why it's been a little
bit of a longer Rd. for for sweepers.
I mean, you know, you and I were talking before this.
I think Rocco Media was the first person to win with a long
putter. And I want to say it was 95.
Is that right? I.
Think it was, I think it was like 91 or something.
It was even early. Yeah, that that could be, you
know, so they've been around, but just, you know, there just
hasn't been anybody that wanted to do it.
And I think that Adam Adam's interesting his influence was,
was two people, one fellow named Sam Reeves, who if you if you
know, kind of the the sounds much more derogatory than I mean
it, but you know, like it's like California golf Mafia.
Like there's, you know, 3 three dozen guys that are, you know,
deeply involved in everything golf.
They're all great guys and Sam's a very, very special human being
and a great player. I think he's still regularly
breaks his age at I think he's 92 and he still plays four times
a week and he's awesome guy. He uses along.
That's who you know, Adam got it from.
And I think that had Adam not, you know, missed horse short
putts in a row in 2012, you know, at the open and then gone
to a long, you know, if he had just done it because he was just
putting better with it, I think it probably would have caught on
quicker than it did because he's always looked cool using 1, you
know, like his the way that he sets up, it's very graceful and
movable. But everybody just assumed it
was a crutch. And nobody wants to admit that
they need a crutch. And I think that that's changing
too. I think people are much more
willing to admit that they need help than they used to be.
I think there's a something going on in the game that makes
people a little bit more humble about the gear that they're
selecting. I think there's another aspect
too of, you know, I've been playing since before I can
remember and there's something fun about learning something new
as well that just can, I don't know, revitalize yourself and
just bring new energy to something you've been doing
forever and maybe got it gotten frustrated with.
So I I've talked to some people who are in in that camp as well,
like, hey, this is just like this is weird.
Like I learned a new thing and it it was hard, but it was, it
was kind of fun and. It's super fun.
I mean that's when most of us play, right?
I mean like release the avid golfers is like the journey, you
know, and, and discovery and breaking through and seeing
what's possible and those rare moments when that actually
happens to people who play all the time and basically shoot the
same score every time they play. It's it's exciting to introduce
opportunities for legitimate improvement.
And then in many cases, my goodness, have I seen it.
I mean people that just just can't putt and then all the
sudden they get along in their hand and they don't just become
acceptable, they become exceptional.
You know, like I've seen it with my own eyes many, many times.
OK, All right, let's dive into the tech a little bit.
You teased it earlier, but why do lab putters set up well for a
sweeper option? So they're, you know, we talked
about how much, how much they weigh, right, a sweeper head.
So there's a direct relationship in correlation between weight
and torque if the heavier the putter, the higher the torque
profile and so the torque output.
So I, I, I think that with conventionally balanced long
putters, it took a bit more manipulation and strengthen that
right hand to keep that thing from moving around because even
more so than a conventional putter really wanted to move.
Now with lying a balance, you know, it's, it's, it's the same
advantage you're getting with a conventional version that you
are with a with a sweeper, except that it's just a bit more
amplified because the torque output of a conventional sweeper
versus a lab sweeper is is, you know, it's just, it's really
significant. So yeah, you know, you just
don't see, certainly you almost never see a toe hang sweeper.
There's quite a few face balance ones.
I couldn't really tell you why that is either.
Like, I don't know why, yeah, I would almost think that a toe
hang, if you're going to choose a non lab sweeper would almost
be better as you know, because it's trying to shut, you know,
on the way back and then it's trying to open on the way
through. I don't know why you'd want
something that was opening in relation to the Yeah, I don't
know. Anyway, So, yeah, I mean, it
just, it makes it with a lab, it just kind of makes it so that
you can just swing the shaft, you know, is is, which is, you
know, again, the same thing with our conventional putters.
That's what we're trying to do is just playing the shaft.
But with the Super upright lie angle, you can get them off the
ground easier. And that's where most people
lose control of a sweeper at first when they first try it.
The second it comes off the ground, the weight is so
significant, it falls to the inside and then they reroute it
to try and save it. And it's, you know, it's just a
mess. Doesn't really happen with labs.
Like they just, they just come off the ground the way that
they're supposed to and they keep moving the way they're
supposed to in transition. And you can grip them pretty
light. And yeah.
What like what model makes the best sweeper?
I mean Mezmax are it seems like 90% of what I've seen, but like
why is there and using that one? Why aren't people using, you
know, DF threes more? Like what?
What's going on with that? I, I mean, I, I would think that
that's I, I don't have a specific answer.
I would think that's entirely just about the tour exposure.
You know, Lucas and, and, and Adam are still using it.
And, you know, Adam helped us design the Oz and, and loved it
so much, but ultimately didn't work very well for him.
And he spent most, most of the last year wrestling with it and
made a bunch of different versions and different lines and
different stuff to try and try and get it to work for him.
Because certainly we didn't care.
We were just wanting to put well with whatever he, you know,
wants to put with, but he wanted to use it because, you know,
he'd helped us. He'd help us carve that one.
I don't know, I think, I mean, I think those, when people ask me
for recommendations, those are the two that I recommend, the Oz
and the Mez. And for me, the reason is just
the lack of onset. And I think that, you know, like
we mitigate onset in our conventional putters by leaning
the shaft forward, then using a press grip, which leans back
with the sweeper. We you can't press grip it.
You know, you're, you know, you're, you're needing to, you
know, it's a vertical shaft with, you know, either the long
21 inch grip or you're a split grip.
So now the the face is just way in front of the shaft when you
start getting into your DF threes and DF2 point ones.
That said, I think it has to do with kind of what you started
with. And like one of our better
players in the company is a fellow named Ryan Dyro.
And Ryan Ryan and I met, yeah, the Mez didn't exist yet.
So there was the Bomber and there was.
And I think he actually ended up putting with a 2.1 with an inch
of lead tape on the bottom. So that was his first long
putter. And now he only puts with onset.
The Oz and the Mez are very uncomfortable for him, makes a
funny strike. It doesn't just doesn't, it
doesn't sit right with him. And so, and we got plenty of
customers that, that only use the, the 2.1 of the three.
So as far as which is the best 1, I don't think that the answer
to that question is any different than any one of our
putters. So you just, you got to come in
and see which one you line up better, see which one bottoms
out better for you, you know, between the aim, well, which
one, you know, ultimately produces the best results.
But like if you already use a sweeper, if you're coming from,
I've never seen anybody that used another company's sweeper
and come to us and end up in a in a DF 3 or 2.1 just because I
think the the the bottom of the arc is just too different.
But you know the odds and the Mes are, relatively speaking,
minimally onset. Got it.
Would you say the majority of sweepers you sell today are are
Mesmax? Is that the the gist?
Of it, I'd be curious to I mean certain, certainly lifetime.
I would have to assume it's like 85%.
Yeah, maybe not, you know, maybe 75 something like that.
I know we sold a lot of Oz sweepers when they came out that
the mess is a fairly polarizing shape.
You know, it's really sharp and it sits on the ground in a in a
way that for some is just not comfortable.
But people like the concept of sweeping.
Tried some of the onset stuff didn't work.
And so I you know, I know that when the Oz came out we did we
did really well with it. I haven't checked specifically
on the split recently. I I think the.
I personally think the Oz is the best sweeper we make.
Really, for sure. The mez just makes sense as a
sweeper in my brain for some reason.
It's like the way that it sets up, the way that it aligns.
It's like this thing is square and I'm going to make this thing
go square and square and like I'm just trying to rotate my
trunk and you know, just like I don't.
Know. What's that?
You tried an Oz. Not the sweeper.
No, not the house sweeper. I'm not going to try it bro.
I need, I need to put that to the test, but I there's
something about the mez Max which is like, I don't know, it
just makes sense as a sweeper anyways.
You're certainly not alone in that feeling.
Yeah. OK.
So everything kind of took off. 2023 started selling crazy
amounts of these, not to just people that have the yips, just
like to normal people right as well.
Yeah, right. Like which was super exciting
because because it's a great, it's a great method.
And I'm, I'm, I'm excited as we continue to see people who are
competent putters, meaning great green readers and have good
judgement of speed just trying it just because not to solve a
problem, but just to try it. And that's what that's where I
think it's gotten really exciting in these last two or
three years. Liam Bedford, who I mentioned
before, is one of the best putters in the company.
He was sweeper for the last nine months.
He actually just recently changed.
We started prototyping some other stuff again, but just for
fun. He just wanted to do it.
He just wanted to try it, wanted to go down the rabbit hole.
I think we got a lot of people out there kind of on that same,
same, same trip. You've probably seen tons of
people try one of these out, you know, as they grab it for the
first time. What are the mistakes that you
see most people make when they try one out?
Because I know, like if you, if I just tried one out on a
potting green, I would have said no, this is stupid.
Like I can't do this right. It took me like 6 weeks to like
actually like I'm committed to this.
Maybe it's too long, but like what?
What do you think are the mistakes that people make when
you've watched them grab one and start hitting putts and then
carry on? With the a few things.
So the first is that that initial, those first couple of
putts like you need to be patient and people are generally
so overwhelmed by the weight that they're just not used to
the the grip pressure required. They don't know quite what
muscles they're using yet. You know, to get the thing
moving, the putter falls to the inside as soon as it gets off
the ground. A little bit lesser with ours
than with conventional ones. But and then they loop it and
catch it off the neck and say no thank you.
So you got to give it more than a minute and I'd say you really
have to give it more than 5. So that's thing one thing 2 I
see people try to make it feel like a putting stroke.
I see people try to make the putter go back and forth kind of
in the same timing as with their, their short putter,
rather than sort of accepting the weight and the, and the, the
sort of letting gravity do its thing, you know, with, with with
long putters is, is essential. And so the stroke does get
longer and you know, it's, it's way less acceleration required.
And and the people who really struggle with sweepers at first
are people who are over accelerators with their
conventional putters, people who have nice long backstrokes in
their conventional putters and kind of, you know, stop a little
bit after the ball. Those people tend to pick up on
sweeping pretty quick, But you're over accelerators really
struggle because the putters too heavy to accelerate.
So anybody that tries to, to, you know, have a lot of hits to
their stroke and acceleration to their stroke, I tell them you
just got to slow down and take the thing far enough back that
all you need to do is let it just sort of drop on the ball to
get it there. And I think that that's a hard
concept for people at first, particularly as the path is
really wonky. You know, they want to grab it
and control it and, you know, and do the thing.
So which, you know, by the way, the, the, the, the fix is to
solve for that first impression that most people get.
Just take the thing back and feel like you're taking it a
little outside and shut, when in fact you'll actually just be on
plane and square. But a lot of people's, you know,
are just used to seeing the putter go like this and their
brain wants to see that with the sweeper and it's not going to
happen. So, yeah, so I would say don't,
don't make it feel like a putting stroke.
Let it be its own thing and then take the thing, you know, a
little outside and shut on the way back.
And I think you'll, you'll be in a in a better spot.
And, and, and further, you have to, you have to choose how
you're going to move it. And I've heard very different
things. And in this, the differences in
the way people move it are more impactful than with conventional
putters because it's so long and because it's so heavy.
So, you know, people who say that with their conventional
putters, like, you know, I'm a little right-handed, you know, I
kind of really feel like I'm hitting it with my right hand or
I pull it through with my left hand or, you know, whatever it
is. You can't really see the
difference in them sort of changing which motor is moving
the putter with a sweeper, you sure can't.
And people are very, very different.
Like Adam. Adam does a drill where he can,
he can putt like this even with his, you know, 850g total
putter. He'll, he'll put his his right
arm behind his back and he'll just putt like this, just
holding the, you know, the the putter with his left hand and
keeping it fixed enough that he can move his core and get it
going. Charles Schwarzel's the exact
opposite. He feels like his shoulders
don't even move. They do.
They move quite significantly, but he doesn't feel like he's
moving them. They just come along for the
ride. He just feels like the entire
stroke is his right arm. So you kind of got to decide how
you're going to move the thing and you know, you got to
experiment with all of it. Gosh, I love that Adam Scott
trail because because I this summer really have noticed that
if I got to feel like I'm rotating my trunk, like and if I
don't engage my core and like feel my whole body like doing
this, then I get a bit squirrely with it.
So that drill sounds perfect for like kind of working on that.
It's good. And I, and I'm the exact
opposite. I, I need to feel like my
sternum doesn't move at all. And then I keep a really low
access point and my, you know, right elbow and right arm are
doing most of the work. And you know, for me, my keys
are this figuring out, you know, with the face, square face,
where my arm and elbow need to be in order to pull the thing
back. You know I'm playing.
Got it. All right, prediction time.
Five years from now, will there be more sweepers on tour than
there are right now? What do you think now?
Absolutely. OK yes, by like you, quite a
few. Let's say I just like I just
clawed. Clauded asked.
Claude, how many are on there right now?
We got Lucas Glover, Akshay Wills, El Torres, been on Adam
Scott. Conventional one.
Yeah, you switched Adam off of a.
Well, he's and got back on it today.
Oh, he did, yeah. OK for a short, short lived
experiment. OK, Adam's interesting.
So what Adam does. So Adam plays probably 95% of
his golf with convent or his casual golf with a conventional
putter. And you know, you know, as a, as
a sweeper guy, like when you lay down a sweeper after a little
break, they just feel like cheating.
Like when you lock in with a sweeper, it feels unfair.
Like it just feels like you just, you have an advantage over
everybody else. So he likes to sort of keep it
fresh. There's also like once you kind
of get sweeping down, there's a lot less like calibration and
management of technique. Like it's easier to do.
It's like it's just much easier to do repeatedly.
Your setup is the same every time, your distance from the
ball is the same every time. And all this shit is the same
over and over and over again. And so he likes that fresh
feeling. So he plays his casual golf with
the with the conventional putter and then goes back to the
sweeper. He was putting so well casually
with this HS that he wanted to give it a shot at the tournament
and didn't, didn't take after you had 30 plus yesterday, which
he wasn't, wasn't terribly pleased with.
But yeah, you got. And then Ben on also just
switched to a conventional putter, I believe.
But he'll be back. Yeah.
And you got Akshay Will James Hahn.
See what Kim using. He he's, he's on and off
statistically, it's crazy to me that he's ever off because it's
not even close how much better he puts with the with the
sweeper. So.
You would guess more in five years, more like at least
double. We'll probably be using sweeper.
Is that will that be your prediction?
Yes. OK.
You feel pretty good about that,
pretty confident. Yeah, because like, you know,
the younger generation is a lot more open minded to technology
in general. And so, you know, the younger
generation it's it's half what's going to make me putt better
than the other half. What's not going to be
embarrassing. You know, long putters are
sorry, but they're just not embarrassing anymore.
Will tell. Torres is cool.
Adam is cool. Akshay's might be the coolest
guy on tour right now. You know, like, they're, they're
cool and they're and there's a graceful way to use them.
And so, you know, if you're, you know, a freshman, sophomore,
junior on tour and all of a sudden you start looking at your
shot length stats and seeing that you're 130th and putting
and you've now seen any number of people.
I mean, actually is another great example, like Bummer is
not using a lab, but like that dude was a liability on the
greens. He is now one of the finest
putters on the planet simply for making that change.
And he was instantly. So, yeah, I think there's going
to be when you start searching for an answer and and seeing
prolonged unsatisfactory putting, I think you're going to
see people try that maybe in advance of going to find a new
coach or, you know, whatever else.
And then from a consumer perspective, do you feel like
that will continue to to grow as well and as with kind of the
pro? I would think, yeah, I mean, I
see it out here, you know, in Emerald Valley for your
listeners, you know, our factory sits right on a golf course and
we got a lot of really good players right here.
The Ducks play here and very well respected tournament course
and I see it a lot more now. I would say, I'd say it's at
least three X what it was three years ago out here.
Yeah, I I've seen the same thing.
There are more guys at at my club.
I don't think there's a single person that had a sweeper five
years ago and now there are at least 5 plus that that do.
So it's, it's interesting, dude. Thank you so much.
I, the last thing that I need is your 5 minute.
I know arm locks is the other alternative that we're talking
about and we, I just, you know, sweepers have been your guys''s
thing here over the last few years.
But like, what's you sell them? What's your, what's your 3
minute take on arm locks? Do you feel the same way or do
you feel? Different.
No, I don't like them. I don't like no, I don't because
there's no way to to lock the forearm against your or lock the
shaft against your forearm without creating tension right
here. And I think that anything that
creates tension below the elbow you're doing so you know what
the to what the detriment of your touch and nuanced putting
all that. Of course there are exceptions,
of course, there, you know, like, and, and particularly for
people that control their speed the way Bryson does.
So Bryson, Bryson's not using touch, but Bryson's using an
equation, you know, so he, he knows exactly how far he needs
to pull the putter back to get it to go X distance.
And so there's not a lot of like, he's not feeling that out.
He's, he's measuring it out. I think for people whose brains
work that way, maybe it's, you know, it's a little bit
different. I you know, Matt Coosier is the
only person that I've seen putt exceptionally well with that
method. And when I say putts
exceptionally well, I mean that's strictly statistically
speaking. It's one of the ugliest party
strokes I've ever seen. Like I've no idea how that dude
holds as many putts as he does. It's incredible.
Like, I mean, it's 100 wiggles all over the place and the ball
never comes off with any like integrity.
And and it's just, it's so weird.
But he has made millions of dollars locking it on each arm.
You know, now he's on the he's got he's locking on the trail
arm. Now what I where I do like
armlock is for training. I really like I I one thing I
was actually just talking to my buddy Carter last night.
You remember Carter who who filmed us.
So Carter's a great player and really good putter, and one of
the things that he struggles with either putts exceptionally
well or his head starts moving back through impact.
And what happens is he takes the putter back.
And if you take it back with your body and then your left
side stops, something's got to get the putter through.
So you either lean back to get it through or the face just
opens up and you hit a lot of pushes, which is what he does.
What I like about Armlock is, is that it'll it'll it'll teach you
as a drill to keep that left side moving, whether it's the
shoulder or the elbow, you know, that that gets the handle
through so that you don't ultimately either fall back on
it or fan it open. So I love it as training.
I use them, you know, to help players with a feel very often.
But yeah, and I'm not going to lie to like, it's just, I, I
haven't spent a ton of time messing around with the method
and when I have personally, I hate it.
Like I just hate the way that it feels.
I it feels clunky and weird and I've just never found any kind
of worthwhile rhythm and, and then part.
And for me, I know that that's about the tension.
Like I putt with incredibly soft hands, credibly soft wrists,
soft forms like my wrists move a little bit when I putt and I
need them to. Otherwise I just start to get
real wooden. This is why we're doing the
series. We need all the perspectives
here. So there we go.
There we got the. And I'm sure there's a great,
there's a great argument for it, obviously, otherwise, you know,
nobody would do it. But then look at the tour man,
like there was a lot of guys in Arm Lock and four years ago and
who's left Vice and then that it's true.
Anybody else? I can't think of anybody.
No, not right now, No all. Right.
There's anybody. Yeah.
So the prediction is is sweet. I know that that's the future.
I know that. What's his name?
Keegan does the the wrist lock. The wrist lock, you know where
it's. So it's, you know, kind of an
arm. Have you guys done that?
Have you done one of those? We've made a few, it gets tough.
They're hard, they're hard to balance because the, you know,
the, the grip having so much more weight on one side because
of the knob that sticks out makes it a, a tricky equation.
But we've built them for tour players and here and there.
Got it, got it. Well, cool man.
Thanks for your time. This was this was super fun.
So people should go they should go build a custom lab Mez Max or
Oz. That's that's your professional
opinion, correct? And check in.
We have a remote fitting for them too, which is important.
It's not super technical. Very rarely does anybody use a
sweeper at less than the maximum allowable lie angle, which is
80°. We do 79.5 just to to leave a
half a degree of room for a angry rules official.
The yeah, biggest thing is kind of ball parking length and we
just tell, just screw around with your driver for a second or
your 3 wood and just kind of figure out how you want to move
it, how you want to stand, how much you want to bend over that
stuff. And then, yeah, order away.
It seemed obvious once you guys said that in the remote fitting,
like just use your driver but like the never had occurred.
So yeah people just grab your driver and figure it out and
you'll figure out the length from there.
So sweet man appreciate it. Great time, Courtney.
Thanks.