Hey, golf science lab Community. It's Cordy here.
No, we're not launching our next season yet.
Don't worry. It's just around the corner, but
we're back with a very, very exciting announcement.
We've just launched our first podcast.
Powered by the golf science lab, it's called game like training
radio and it's hosted by coach Matthew Cooke and myself.
We're having conversations focused on practice and learning
with some incredible guests. Like this show with Trevor
Reagan of train ugly, make sure subscribe in iTunes, game like
training radio and check back on a weekly basis as will have new
episodes. Episodes from this first season.
All right, let's get into it. Hello.
And welcome to game like training radio powered by the
golf science lab where we'll help you set up practice and
learning environments. Actually help you play your best
game on the course and not on the Range.
Hey, I'm one of your host Corey Walker.
And I'm your co-host, Matthew Coke.
And we're here today with Trevor Reagan from train ugly.com,
super excited to share this interview with you.
All we talked with Trevor about His experiences with other
cultures and other sports and his work with Carol dweck on the
growth mindset. And we also discuss some motor
learning principles and Trevor does an incredible job of
explaining all of this, through his analogy of the Jungle tiger
yet. Know, I really like his
perspective, Matt, because he brings this setting of other
sports other coaches and academics in.
And sets up a framework that we can understand toward the end of
this conversation Utah. It's about really these four
steps to teach new skills and applying this to golf during
training is really going to set up some amazing amazing results
before we get into it. We put together for videos to
help you create better game, like training practice
environments in your practice from full swing short game to
putting. You have to make sure that
you're spending your time wisely and making practice effective
head over to golf science, lab.com / better training and
check it out. So let's get into it with
Trevor. All right, so we are super
excited to be here with mr. Trevor, Reagan of train ugly,
and we're just going to dive into this learning conversation,
and maybe a good place to start. Trevor is with the foundational
element, which is like this growth mindset, right?
Like, if you want to learn, if you want to train ugly, you have
to have the right mindset going into a.
So, like, where do you start with that conversation?
Or where does that topic start for you?
Well, first of all what you said is like, right on the money,
When I got into this, it started with like, very like motor
learning focused and I think the motor learning science is
fascinating. I think there are a ton of
applications than a ton of ways to use it to improve practice,
what I found, especially when we're working with athletes and
volleyball and basketball, is that to really get the most out
of a science based practice. And so if we base the practice,
According to the motor learning science, it does get ugly is
harder. There's like, more contextual
interference. There was a little more
Randomness, there's a little more chaos and what happens when
you're in that zone? Is you make more mistakes?
And so it does get uglier. And from what I found, coupling
that science with the growth mindset research, that is where
we see the best results because essentially the growth mindset
stuff is talking about. Like mental approach to Learning
and Development and it helps you see the value of mistakes and it
helps, you see the value of struggle?
And it shows you how that those things actually help you grow
more than if those things were not there.
And so what we've seen is people who understand growth mindset
and understand this mental approach to learning actually
get more out of a practice that's designed according to the
principles of motor learning. So train, ugly is the marriage
of those two. I guess, areas of research,
Each. So growth mindset is the mental
side of learning and then motor learning is like, what learning
looks like and how we can design our practice according to the
science. And so, if we were to jump into
growth mindset, there are two things that really, really, I
think matter the most there and the first is like, the core of
it all is simply a belief in your ability to learn.
This could be learning a new project, new skill and new
swing, but it's simply the belief.
Your ability to eventually learn and figure something out.
And then to build one step on top of that.
And I think this is equally as important is sort of like what
you value. So, the do extra research is
that people with growth mindset, they value learning, and getting
better, more than they value, how they look, I guess the
opposite of a growth mindset is a fixed mind that and these
people do not believe in their ability to learn and get better
and their number one concern. Tell them, Look to other.
And so, going back to a growth mindset.
It's those two concepts that really make up a true growth
mindset. It is, I believe I can learn and
learning and getting better is more important than how I look.
And with that attitude, obviously, there's more, there's
like that takes work. That's like a daily battle that
you fight to get to that zone where you have those two like
beliefs and values. But when you're there, you get
more from your practice because See the value of like a
difficult game like practice. That's a great way to put it
Trav. I've seen and and read and
watched a bunch of your content where you talk about the the
jungle tiger and the nun jungle tiger.
And I think that is just an incredible analogy at, you know,
especially for what you just for, what you just talked about
with the growth mindset, I think, you know, obviously, I've
listened to it. I've watched some of your
presentations online, but I think it would be great if you
could just go over. Over that that analogy for the
listeners for this, it will be awesome for them to you just
meet you. Maybe do like a virtual fist
bump right there because the jungle tiger stuff, I think is
the best way to teach this. And for me, it's the best way to
understand how this works. And it also plays into the
growth mindset stuff as well. So like the quick jungle Tiger
exercise of the Jungle, tiger story, is simply a comparison of
two tigers. One tiger that lives in a zoo.
One tiger that lives in the wild there in the jungle and if you
look and compare their lives, it's like it's pretty much black
and white. Like they're on opposite ends of
the spectrum Zoo. Tigers life is very easy.
It's very safe because it lives in a cage and everything is done
for it. It always has food.
Always has water. Always has protection and it
sits in a cage all day. Life is easy, life is safe and
then if you compare that to the life, Of a jungle tiger.
We're on the complete opposite. End of the spectrum where the
jungle tiger is not necessarily like safe all the time in his
life. Isn't that easy?
Because he has to do everything for himself, he has to learn to
hunt to protect himself, to build shelter, like to do all
the things a jungle tiger, would have to do his life.
Involves a considerable amount more struggle and mistakes and
errors and failures, like going to be hungry nights and hungry
days. If he doesn't find food and then
sort of the punch line of this is what would happen if you put
a zoo tiger into the wild. Wow.
Hey won't do won't do very well what did find it difficult to
survive yet? It probably won't be alive for
long Zoo. Tigers going to be out in the
wild and really not know how to survive.
The reason, it doesn't know how to survive is because it spent
its entire life in its cage or everything was easy and safe.
But it Didn't really have to develop skills.
So if we put a zoo tiger in the wild, it's just not going to
handle it. It's not going to survive.
Now, if we look at the jungle tiger, the Junger jungle tiger,
figures out, how to survive in the wild, it figures It Out by
living there. The jungle tiger, learns to
survive in the wild by living in the wild and now a couple key
points I want to point out. They're both tigers and they
both have the same tools. They both have stripes.
They can both jump really high, they both have sharp teeth.
The only difference was sort of the way that they grew up and
develop and that difference allowed the jungle tiger to do
something that the the zoo tiger could never do and this jungle
tiger approach. The part approach, the not safe,
coach, the approach that was filled with struggle and
mistakes allowed that tiger to develop.
Skills that the zoo tiger never could the easy approach and the
safe coach did not. And so if we were to take this
to the Sports World, literally any sport basketball soccer
volleyball golf. What we need to understand is
the game when we compete, when the lights are on, when the
scores on when were playing, that is the Wild games.
Are random games are chaotic? No, two games.
You ever play, no two matches you ever play or ever.
Be the same games are the wild. Now the problem that I see the
one of the biggest problems I see, is we trying players and we
design our practices like Zoo our practices look good.
They are easy, but people are not getting better.
And so what happens is we train a bunch of zoo tigers and then
we throw them into the wild when it's game time and then they
struggle and we don't see that transfer.
And so like to take this one step farther, It's it's kind of
looking at the zoo and looking at the cage in the zoo, like, is
a metaphor for our comfort zone and we all have comfort zones
you do. I do the players you work with
do as well. And the truth is, when you're
operating in your comfort zone, whatever it may be, you look
good, it's easy. It is safe, but you're not
necessarily getting better. Our comfort zone is just like a
cage in the zoo. And so my job and the reason
that chain ugly exist and the reason that I talked so much
about this is to help people understand that the best
learning happens when you find a way to stretch outside of your
comfort zone. When you find ways to escape the
zoo and get into the wild. And so I think the big hurdle
that we faced with all of this is I've probably given the
jungle tiger talk to over 10,000 people at this point.
Ranging from like four year olds all the way up to professional
athletes. And out of the ten thousand
people every single Single one of them agree that the jungle
tiger approach leads to more learning and prepares that tiger
to survive in the wild, the hurdle we face is most of us
when it comes to development, and when it comes to learning,
we approach those things like a zoo tiger, where we would rather
play it safe. We would rather look good.
We would rather be in our comfort zone.
Then tries something new, then take a wrist and stretch out and
get into the wild. What I've found is the big
reason behind that. We hate to look bad.
We hate Ugly, we hate feeling like maybe we're out of our
comfort zone. And so what we do is help,
people understand the value of getting into the wild and then
that is where growth mindset comes in.
So I think sum it up. It's jungle tiger zoo tiger
talks about how learning, how learning works.
And then the growth mindset is sort of the helmet that you wear
to survive in the wild. So we're saying you learn best
when you're stretched. You learn best.
When it's ugly, you learn best in the wild in the growth
mindset, is your armor that you wear in the wild that helps you
deal with that struggle and tension of what real learning
involves. Because real learning.
As you guys know, you've been looking into this as well.
Real learning involves some tension and struggle.
You have to be bad at something before, you're good.
And so what we're trying to do, like literally the, the reason
that we named the website, what we named it is trying to change
the perception. Option of what ugly is, people
ate ugly, people, resist, ugly, butt.
Ugly is where the magic happens. And so, we found that the jungle
tiger story is a great way to start that conversation.
Yeah, for sure. And I love this conversation
about desirable difficulties and challenge points.
One of my my favorite conversations and like how you
have to fall down to get better and like, on top of that, with a
growth mindset, like, I guess in a practical sense, like how do
you approach failure? Right.
Like when you fail in front of Well, and you feel horrible and
it's ugly not as someone approach that are like
practically like how do you get back up and go do it again.
Yeah. So like and that's the tough
part because it's easy to talk about these things and it's easy
to say look getting better needs to be more important than how
you look at least things. What I found is just having lots
and lots of conversation about the value of the the failure in
the struggle, a great book that I'd highly recommend is called
the obstacle is the way by Ryan holiday Absolutely incredible.
I'm about halfway through it and it just talks about how the most
successful people regardless of the industry.
They're in summer in sports and summer.
In just any think the most successful people have been
through a lot of obstacles and struggle in their life and what
they realize and what you realize if you look into their
stories is people learn more from obstacles and struggle than
if those things. These were not there.
So what we need to do is start to change our perception about
what a mistake in what like a stumble is.
It's like a valuable. It's a valuable opportunity to
grow. That's it.
It's not. We shouldn't feel judged.
We shouldn't feel embarrassed. It should be kind of celebrated
where it's like, a special learning opportunity that you
get. Again, that takes a lot of work
and that takes a lot of conversation, but if we can get
there like that, Within this becomes powerful.
Yeah, but couldn't have worded it, any better trap the whole
failing and getting back up and trying to do it again and
changing the perception of how failings viewed is increasingly
important. I know you've spent a lot of
time with the likes of John over at the Olympic Association and
and is good, buddy, Peter Vin and I know spent some time with
many professors and more learning and cognitive
psychology and all of that. And I know you've also spent
some time with some really, really good coaches.
So I'd love to know like what the sort of conclusion is from
from all of these people. All of these amazing people that
you've managed to spend time with and just hang out with, how
do they view this? This failing and an ugliness of
training and get and training, more game like to get better.
How do, how do they view it? Whether they're teaching?
Yeah, and I think that's a great question.
But I think there are a couple of important things.
First of all, they realize this that practice Is there to help
us learn it better that it doesn't really matter.
What we look like in practice? What matters is what happens
when the lights are on and it matters.
And so, the big, I think one of the core principles of motor
learning is transfer. It's finding ways to essentially
transfer the improvements. We see in practice to the game.
Another way to look at it is if I get better in practice, does
it show up on Friday night? And the way I see it is we
should be finding ways to maximize that transfer because
what matters is like our performance in the game.
And so what they found is to maximize transfer.
So when we see improvements in practice, they show up in the
game to maximize that, what we need to do is make our practice
resemble the game as much as possible.
This takes us back to Jungle tiger for one more second.
The jungle tiger learned to survive in the wild by living in
the wild period. It lived in the wild struggled,
it figured it out and it developed an incredible skill
set. Practice is the same.
We said at the start, our games are the wild.
How do we get our practice to resemble the Wild?
And from what I've seen, the coaches that have really bought
into this and who are really running with this Stand that
they are thinking about and having conversations all the
time about how can we introduce more variables into our
practice? That will make it more like the
game period. And so if you think about like
the emotion, that's there and a game, the pressure that's there
in the game, the randomness and chaos and the game, how do you
introduce those things in practice?
And those are the conversations they're having now hard part of
that is coaches and players. Layers.
We all do, we all like it when things look good.
And so what happens is if we start to introduce all these
game variables into practice is doesn't necessarily look the
best. Like there is a lot more
mistakes, a lot more kind of chaos happening.
Doesn't look the best and if like a parent walk through the
gym, they would be going. Wow, what is going on here?
But again, that goes back to like, what's important are?
We practicing to look good. Are we practicing to get better
because those are two very different things and it's really
hard for both of those things to happen at the same time.
And so the best coaches I've seen, they understand that the
reason we practice is to get better and if the reason we
practice is to get better and needs to be ugly.
If we're just trying to look good by all means, we can do
block practice, we can do these traditional drills and things
that people do. That look good.
That organized. But the truth is Are not
stretching people, they're not challenging people and therefore
people aren't getting better. Hey, if you're enjoying this,
you might want to check out the motor learning master classes,
we put together here, call science lab, it's 15 sessions,
deleting golf coaches, talking about learning, Matt Cook
co-host here of game. Like training radio was actually
one of the presenters and talk to all about deliberate
practice. The one thing we can't get
around is that if we're going to reach a higher level of
performance. So if we're going to get better,
any We have to practice. Check it out at motor learning
lab.com. Let's get back into it.
Here's kind of a tough question, right?
So the beginner right in level of skill.
So everyone is different. Everyone needs a different level
of challenge. How does this apply to a
beginners? Because I think it's easy to
apply this to someone. That's an expert.
Sure. But it might be a bit more
difficult to do. Someone just getting into golf
for instance, like how do we apply this?
Yep. Okay so I love that question.
And this is like that's where you get the biggest.
Push back. A couple things.
I want to point out in the Learning studies.
The majority of them are based around teaching people a new
skill. These could be adults that can
be college students, but they're learning something that they've
never done before therefore these results, apply to people,
the young athletes who are learning a new skill because
like in the studies where they compare block and random
practice, like they're teaching them something new.
It's not like they're getting like drilling something that
they already know. So it's usually a new task that
they're working. Emma.
Second, these results I think apply to any age group.
And so what we need to understand is when we are
teaching a new skill, it is okay to involve a bit of block
practice and block practices. Like the repetitive stuff that
you see, the traditional stuff, you see, where you do the same
thing over and over. We've been lucky enough to work
with the ton of kids that are a ton of different ages and
majority of those kids and the basketball world.
And we spend a lot of time, teaching them new things that
they've never done and sort of the format that we've found that
works. The best is a simple
progression. And the progression goes, what?
Keys, lock practice random practice.
So let's like take them through that if we're going to teach a
kid how to swing a golf club or a, teach a kid, a new shot in
basketball. What we like to do is show them
video of what it looks like. You can go anywhere on YouTube
and find some Pass the mechanics that you're trying to teach of
whatever skill you've tried to teach.
We spend some time letting the kids watch that two important
things happen when they watch number one, they see what we're
going for. Number two, we have a very, very
important conversation where we ask them.
Why do you think it would be important to learn this skill
now? That seems like maybe a simple
question, but that is huge, is what we're doing is starting to
give them a little bit of ignition.
And this is something that Daniel Coyle talks about where
it's like, they now see the value of this.
And so if we're teaching a kid, maybe to shoot a floater in
basketball, which is just maybe a new shot and we show them a
couple of minutes of video of people shooting it SM.
Why would it be good to know that shot?
They say, wow, it looks like it's really easy to get that
shot off in traffic and it helps you get that shot off against
taller Defenders and they start to talk about and see the value.
And what this is doing is building engagement And giving
them sort of purpose or a. Why?
Oh, why do I even to learn this? And we found that just that
simple question. And that short conversation
about the purpose of this increases, the amount of
learning big time because now they have a reason for it.
So when we watch, we're doing a couple of things, we're showing
them what it looks like. We're having a conversation
about why it's important after we watch.
We work with the kids and create skill Keys, which The two to
three most important parts of that technique, whatever
technique you're teaching, there should be a few simple skill,
key, is that come up? And so, we usually develop those
keys with the players. After that, we let them get some
reps in like a more of a block practice type atmosphere.
Now, that trick here and the key here is we only spend about
three to five minutes on this. What we do is we'll spread them
out. In their head, they know what
they're going for. They know what the skill keys
are and now we're going to give them a ton of reps doing that.
No defense with no chaos. No.
Anything while they're doing this.
We walk around with an iPad. We have a ton of iPads in the
gym and we give them visual feedback on this where we asked
them. Do you look like the video that
we showed you? What is different?
What can we work on? Are you doing the keys?
And we're giving them five minutes.
And in five minutes you could get a ton of reps trying this.
You think and the purpose of this up, this block step is, how
does this feel? So the purpose of watching was,
what is it look like the purpose of the keys is, what's
important? And then the purpose of the
block practice is, how does it feel now after three to five
minutes, they're going to have a pretty good idea of like what it
feels like. And obviously some made progress
faster than others. That's the art side of this
where we need to work with the ones that are Juggling with it
and give them more feedback more visual feedback reps.
But as soon as they know what it feels like what it looks like.
Now, it's time to enter into a more random Zone.
That doesn't mean we just roll the ball out and play.
Now that means we can come up with ways to randomize this
drill or the practice essentially.
What we're doing, there is adding some game element its
into the equation and that simple progression.
We found incredible results and teaching people, new things
rather quickly and so will take people through that.
And what we is, by the end of that session.
They're using the new shot, they're doing the new shot, and
they're doing it in a game. And once they know, and once
they can show you what it looks like in a knot and I'd like a
non crazy random environment, they're ready to random.
And random and golf and random and basketball.
Again, simply means just don't do the same thing twice in a
row. It doesn't mean just playing
five-on-five. Now it means if we're working on
shooting, we're shooting from different spots, shooting
different shots. We're just switching things up.
We're adding some defense and the same is true for you guys.
So maybe we develop our short game again.
I don't know golf lingo, but may be working on a new Chip Shot,
or whatever. And we give them Those block
reps. And then after that, it's time
to go around and where it's like, hey, we're going to play
on the Range or on a short short hole where we're 90 yards out
where we're going to all play with, it's like four balls.
And essentially what happens is with these four balls, we're
going to hit them up close to the green and then they're going
to get four reps chipping around the green or whatever.
Maybe. So they're like doing different
things. It's starting to be more
game-like and that's where the real development.
Is it happen? That's an awesome way to
progress. I think watching and then the
keys block and then random it's very similar to what a friend of
yours. Actually Tim Lee, I'm sure you
spoke to him a bunch of times that's something that he
recommended. You know, short block could be
good for the short space of time and then to move into random.
So yeah, that's that's awesome. I think that's some great
information for us in golf there.
That one thing that I would really encourage people to think
About. Is that conversation of why
would it be important to do this?
It's like it doesn't seem like a big part of that progression but
it's huge. It's absolutely huge.
Because I think when you hear more invested in, you see the
value of developing this, whatever it is, you're going to
be more engaged in that during that progression you'll get more
out of it. Quick question Trevor on the
random part like do you like to end that with like competition
in some way or just is strictly just like random type?
Type of game like, practice good or do you like to have that
pressure of a score as well? Then I always like to add the
pressure, the score. And this is sort of a tightrope
that you walk because if like Sometimes when there's a score,
people start to play it safe. And so what I firmly believe is
this, I believe in creating the atmosphere and practice that is
as much like a game as possible. Therefore, there is a score and
there is a competitive element. And then the conversations we
have with the kids is helping them understand that even though
there's a score attached to this, even though there's a
winner and a loser, we are still here to get better and we are
still here. Here to to grow.
And so any mistakes that are made or any losses or defeats or
whatever like those are. Okay.
And what I tell kids is this, never let the number on the
scoreboard, rob. You have an opportunity to grow.
We talked about like the Reps that you get in a game, like,
practice are so valuable, do not miss out on those and what you
see in. I'm sure you guys see the same
engulf, is maybe a player. Down by few strokes.
And there's really no chance that they're going to catch up,
right? Like, there's just not going to
win. And a lot of people in that
situation would sort of check out and kind of go through the
motions for the next four or five holes because hey, I have
no chance. I can't win.
Just like a basketball team. It's down by 20 or 30 points
like they're not going to win that game, but the conversation
in that I would encourage coaches to have, there is look,
we're playing this or like this. The reason we're doing this is
again, we're always focused on learning and getting better.
And the truth of the matter is, regardless of what the
scoreboard says, you still have a lot of reps on the table to
get why, not focus on getting better.
And why not Embrace those reps? And you're probably not going to
win, we're probably not going to catch up, you're probably not
going to catch the leader. But the truth of the matter is
let's embrace the opportunity to go.
Let's get the most out of this. Let's find a way to To treat
this as an opportunity. And what you find there is
number one, they'll start to get over like the fact that they're
losing and they start to see that the real important part of
competing and playing isn't like necessarily winning and losing.
It's just like seeing it as another opportunity to grow,
especially like a golf and basketball in any sport.
Like if we're telling people, that the best type of reps are
game like reps, well, when you're actually playing, Saying
those are the best reps. So, the games are kind of where
the most Learning Happens. Because those are exactly like
the game because it is the game. So, you're in the wild, enjoy
it, regardless of what the scoreboard says, enjoy this and
embrace this and and take advantage take advantage of all
of those learning opportunities that the game or competition
presents. And so, the reason that I add
score and add like the competitive element in almost
everything, You do is getting players accustomed to letting it
rip even when they feel like it matters.
So, I think that's a big part of this.
It's like, can you have a growth mindset and can you take this
mental approach when there's a winner and a loser?
And there's a score on the line because that's where the real
value is. So my theory with that is that
is a skill, therefore, the more reps of get doing that, the
better, they will get at that. Feel like we could talk all day
on this. This framework, this four-step
framework that you have, but this has been killer, man, we've
got growth mindset. We've got the the jungle tiger
analogy and we've got this, this four-step framework to teach new
skills. Absolutely amazing.
Where can people go to check out more.
I know that you have, you have a, some good videos, diving into
some other stuff like, what would be the best piece of
content, you have out there that people should check out after
listening to this. If they want, more motor
learning stuff, there's a video on the train ugly website, about
block. Practice.
And it might be one of my most favorite videos we've made
because it shows why random practice is better and it goes
into some some data that showed some applications.
And I think it does a good job of really painting the picture
from that step. If they're interested in the
mindset side of things, there's a ton of content there.
I think, the video I would recommend, it's called shift
happens, and it's sort of talking about why.
Why we worry so much about how we look and then how to get over
that. And so I think those would be
two videos that I would suggest, hey Trev, what is, what some of
your social media as well. Like what's your Twitter?
What can people follow you on Twitter and follow you on
Facebook and things like that? Yep, everything is just train
ugly. So we're on everything.
You could be well, blab, Instagram, Twitter.
It's all just trying to really awesome killer.
Thanks. Trevor, man.
This Been fantastic dude such good info.
Hey I really appreciate the opportunity obviously there's a
lot more to talk about so anytime you guys want to get
together I am in. Thank you so much for joining us
today. Make sure to check out what
Trevor is doing it turned ugly.com and you know to be
awesome. If you said Thank you to him on
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