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We're on a mission to help golfers from all over the world,
achieve their goals by understanding what it actually
takes to play their best. Golf we're talking is leading
instructors researchers and players themselves to find what
is actually working. Hey everyone, I have a really
good podcast that I want to share with you.
If you don't know, we run the tour coach podcast with Tony
Ruggiero, kind of a partner show that you can subscribe to Tony.
Does some great shows in his latest one is with Sean Foley.
I'm sure you've heard that name you know the top instructor for
quite a while now and they just had a really candid honest
conversation about coaching professional golf and kind of
like how it's shifting and changing so rapidly.
It was really, really fascinating I felt like it was
something that I think everyone should hear if you're interested
and what's going on in coaching and training on the PGA tour.
So fascinating conversation, a lot of things you probably have
never heard before because this is just really candid
conversation. I enjoyed it just as a warning
There's some swearing in this. So if you have some kids, maybe
throw some are pods in other than that, let's dive in.
Go subscribe to the to our coach podcast while you're at it and
see what Tony's up to over there.
Hit me with me here at the tour. Coach podcast, someone I wanted
to talk to you for a good long time.
Had the opportunity to sit with at the US Open last week, one of
the great coaches and names and golf, Sean Foley Foley, what's
up my man? Yeah.
How you doing? I'm doing good.
What's up, buddy? Not much just have licked my
wounds after a week of the double miscut and now I'm back
at home and ready to go again. Yeah, I understand but tell me
ask you this had it when you have a double missed cut like
that. What are your thoughts like what
do you mean? You know?
Because people always want to know the inside.
The ropes thing is a teacher. What are your first thoughts?
When you go through the, you know, I've got a double miscut I
have it happened. Plenty of times.
I went one for one last week, but how do you handle it?
You know, I just think you have to appreciate the difficulty of
the game. It's like, I don't ever try to
really be that emotional with how I approach what I do.
I think that that's just a, you know, that's just, that's just
dangerous. So it I had times where I had
four players in the field and for three weeks in a row, they
finished in the top 10 every week.
And I think that what will happen is if you think that
should be normal, then the rest of the time you're going to be
completely discontent and frustrated rather than
recognizing, I see how special that is.
So it's understanding like you left man, when when life and
work are going good, you have to be grateful, you have to enjoy
it. And then when it's not you have
to know that at some point it will again and it's just it's
just what happens. You know.
I'm not Golf Course out there. It's such a big ask.
I mean if if everyone had to tee off again today for the next
Days. The top 10 could look totally
different and so no, I think it's I think it's just realizing
that. Unfortunately, I think failure
is just the way we've been taught what that word is.
It's just got such a negative connotation, it's neuroscientist
say that failure is actually feedback.
So it kind of lets you look a little bit.
Okay, at what happened. But then I think this doing too
much of that sometimes leads us feel 80.
I mean, we had a perfect Drive tone on number 13, and it went
340 and ended up. Six inches in the rough and you
had to play out sideways, right? It happens.
And, you know, and that was to me obviously like you walked
around and watched a bunch of golf and I saw plenty of shots
that were really good shots in particular, you know, where you
Lucas on Saturday hits drive down, nine or on Sunday, barely
runs through the rough runs right up against the edge of the
cut line and he's got no shot to get to the green mean.
You don't talk in a matter of inches.
And it's not like you hit a bad golf.
To get there. It's just you don't know a
couple a couple of inches is an 8-iron to a front, right?
Penny makes Eagle in the day's different.
Like it's that's I think that's what players don't pay attention
enough to. It's just the sheer probability
like you know I've had players when they struggle with their
puting. They'll say like I miss
everything from HP. This like well not really but
the average on tour from 18 is like 50%.
So do you think you should make 8 out of 10?
You're always going to think something's wrong with you,
right? Right.
Now, with as a coach with the player.
So when you know, everybody thinks your Genius is when the
guys playing great but when a guy gets, you know, he's playing
good and you mentioned, you know, we were talking about
different scenarios and guys who you feel like maybe they're
you're not on the right track. How do you handle that as a
coach where maybe you feel, you know, you know, maybe where you
feel like the player. Regressing may not always be the
right word but like you're not on the right track.
How do you handle that or what is your thought process?
When you feel like maybe with a player?
Like man, I Still. No, I don't know if we're going
in the right direction. What do you do?
Well, I think it always takes like deep introspection, right?
So I did this post on Instagram yesterday.
I did this post on Instagram yesterday just talking about
kind of my feelings on the world and what's been the right on
very good. So thank you.
I got a lot of comments on it. This one guy commented and I
don't I don't know who he is, but he said make sense on why
you always came in the Pro Shop to say hello to the staff at the
PGA. Tournament at our place, only
top hundred teacher to do so. Wow.
And I'm like, well if you have a kid, plated idea of who you are
look. Well, I don't know if you
charge, but I charge my guys five percent of what they are
and on the course. So from just a straight
mathematical probable, business model, I'm 5% of their success,
and I'm 5% of their failure. Now, to be a great coach that
you have to feel like you're going to give them everything
you have, right? But the idea is like, the golf
swing is very, very But the human brain is very, very
complex. Sometimes it's done and it made,
they make it look easy, but most of the time it's just really not
the case, you know? So I think, you know, you have
to look at, you got to be careful, you know, when you have
a player in 2020, but you had it like really money in 2016.
Well, a lot has changed in that person's brain and body by that
point. So the old life, this is what we
did when we did it the best. That's dangerous too, right?
But normally, when the player was playing his best, there was
more of a shot shape. Yes.
So I remember before you started working with Lucas one day, he'd
ask me a deli open if I could take a look and I said, you
know, I don't have much time but I have two hours this afternoon
and it gave me the opportunity to see Lucas who I really enjoy.
And Don Cooper, my absolute and Lucas was trying to hit a fade
and I was like, what do you do? And he's like, well, I just feel
like I got to I and I'm like, nah, I said, look, dude, put the
stick out in front of you. Start it right of that and take
a bigger divot and that was all I said.
So to me, when I think about Lucas, I think it is starting
right draw. That doesn't often cross the
target plan. Correct.
If Lucas is literally trying to think that the key is to fade
the ball moving forward. And that's just so against what
he does that he can't. Yes.
Does he need to know how to fade it?
Of course, he can fade it, but if he just set up and he had to
hit it in the Fairway, Fairway. And on the green then he would
hit that shot the the shot that comes easier to him.
So I think it's more, it's more like that.
So with a player like Danny Willett, he became the number
one amateur in the world with a pretty sizable High sling drop.
Yeah. And then he won the Masters with
a slight fade. But what happened over time is
the carrier of the overdraw became a cancer to where it got
to where the only shot he could hit with the bowl cut.
Okay. And I don't know if it goes back
to like a Mac O'Grady, fast, Action that a lot of people have
and how the swing looks. But I just cannot think of that
many great players who had a bowl cut.
I can't like, no, I can't think about it.
Hmm, so I think the desire to get rid of a hook.
A lot of guys want to try and play a cut, but they didn't
necessarily do it the right way. It's like, I think it's easier
to hit less of a hook than it is to teach a hooker, how to cut
it. The great agree.
Then, you know, when I started working with Lucas, I had the
similar thought. I think that you did that.
Thank you. The first thing he said was I
want to get back to hooking it and so to me was just wasn't
going back, trying to make do what he used to do but was to
set him up and just get him to hit hook and then let him figure
out how to hook it less, right? Hey, look fuck that.
I mean, you know, the thing about coaching, obviously, it's
how we make our living at some, we're passionate about.
We enjoy the people that we work with we'd like to see them do
well and all that. But like, how did Ben Hogan and
Lee Trevino get to that point. So I think that is I got older,
I feel like my role in helping a player, has diminished.
It's more of like, creating the understanding in the environment
so that they can go out on their own.
And, you know, when a flare looks at you and says, you know
what, you think I should feel? It's like man, like, well, how
could I ever answer that? So, you know, it's like this
afternoon, I'm I'm, I'm working with Hunter Mahan and I work
with honor, for most from 2008, for a long time.
And, you know, it relationships are hard, right?
Like, even in relationships with, Like our children or our
wives, are our parents aren't guaranteed, you know what I
mean? So yeah.
When we when we stop we just weren't getting it done.
Like we were getting it done but you know I really know what he
needs to do to get it done. But that's just a piece of the
puzzle that desire, the discipline, the everything, I
mean when when honor was on top of the world and we top 10
without like every single week, you know, he was just engaged
and he didn't have four kids. So you know, life changes in
good ways but it also There's other aspects so there's there's
more to it than just you know, it's amazing to watch Instagram.
If you want on the range of the PGA Tour event and you did slow
motion videos of the guys in the top 125 they would hardly get
any likes. Like people would say, they're
too steep coming down. They stand up too fast or too
Flippy. And you know, we're in a world
now of, like, of this swing where everyone hits a ball with
both of their arms, straight all the way through it and over,
rotate their torso and Open up too much.
And it's just fascinating to me. It's like I get it.
Yeah, the theory is correct, but rub comes to you wanted to talk
to you about a couple things. This is always fascinating to me
and I enjoy what I get the cornea and you know, somewhere
at a Tour event. And so going back to like Hunter
because that's the path of a couple times.
Is it harder when they leave and they come back or do you find it
easier when they leave come back for?
Is it different each time? You know?
Because you know, I've had happened with Miley a few.
I believe they come back at you and I talked about that a little
bit and I had, you know, talk about a wide all the way up and
then he left and came back, just curious your thoughts, your
opinions, and what you've learned over the years from
players leaving them back that they inevitably, most of the
time. We've done a good job and you
have a good relationship and they leave at some point, they
kind of do always seem to find their way back in a certain way.
Yeah. Yeah.
Look you stop working for a reason in the first place,
right? I haven't seen him Many people I
get divorced and get married again and then it be alright.
Like it's so that you know, there's a reason it's now I have
seen people get divorced and then still go together to Italy
with their family and have a great time because they're still
very friendly so rap scene that. But yeah, I mean, look, Mike,
you know, the way that my dad raised me and everything like
that it was, you know, was do your best in life, not to take
things personally and understand that, you know how people see
you as more function, how they see themselves and how you
actually are. So, I don't think I've ever you
know I mean gosh when tiger when tiger fired me I sat in airports
for two weeks and looked at the ESPN and saw my name on the
ticker. I mean that was, you know, that
was that was a little bit that was a little bit different but
at the same point it's like look man.
Like from the first day you get hired in anything.
You're one day closer to getting fired and that's but that's
okay. Like there's a lot of there's a
lot of golfers out there. Hopefully the time that you had
was successful, you it was mutually beneficial.
But then when it's not working, Any more to stick around, that's
when it gets kind of nasty. So it's always about class, man.
I mean, if much is, this is a business.
You can't have that much love for those guys.
And all of a sudden one day, just go, you know, this is
bullshit. Forget them.
It's I just, I've never felt like that about anything and so,
yeah, it's different, but can it be successful again?
I'm sure that it can. But look, when these guys are
rice and be Shambo had a great team of people around them but
price and E. Shambo man is really the caftan
in a big way of Team. He's pushing all those people
around him to get answers. So we're Bryson's at is
attributed to the people that helped them along the way, but
no one's fat there and did all those reps in the gym and no one
sat there and hit those millions of golf balls.
I mean, the glory has to go, I think it was Roosevelt right?
There's the glory has to go to the man in the arena, right?
So it's all going to come down to and so when you look at a lot
of the top players in the world, right now they have girlfriends
or they don't. But they don't have kids.
And you know, with the guys in the last generation because of
obviously Tiger Woods and what happened to purses and things
like that. I mean, if you're sitting there
looking at 35 million in the bank and get it home and you
know how much that's important because that's almost better
than what you do on the golf course you can get stuck.
So, I think, at that point, that, you know, what their
objective is in the right way because if they're still pushing
for the finishes that But they're not putting the same
amount of time in. I mean, half the off the price
and be Shambo, I mean, I've watched for four or five years,
I've got to know him quite well, and I've just watched him be the
butt end of all jokes. And you know, to me, if someone
is doing something in a completely different way than
everyone else, and everyone is kind of taking the piss out of
them, that's the guy you invest 100 Grand in.
So, for me, it was I thought it was really cool to see him kind
of Shhhh what he did. Because people just need to
realize this Been A Five-Year Plan in his mind that it's
all-encompassing, like almost every waking hour of the day.
Well, how long can you keep a long?
Can you keep that up for, right? That's the question that think,
you know, is and again, I think that with the money, the way it
is right now, I don't know that mean.
Do you think that many of these younger guys are wired to where
they want to go? Do it for 40 years at that pace
or try to do it, but I don't think that they need You anymore
with the money that's out there. You can go have a good five,
eight year run, and make more than you'll ever need in your
life. I think it's going to get.
I think it's going to be more like other sports because I
think what we're going to see, there's going to be a lot more
Cameron Champs. We get some of these amateurs
who come into the field at like the US Open and they're the only
ones who have the ball speed that he has.
And yeah, and then look, when you doing that, there's going to
be, you know, you're applying more force and torque.
There's more velocity, the body's going through more
Dynamic ranges of motion and look, so there's not any
world-class Sprinter who don't pull their hamstring, it's not
possible. So I think we're going to see
careers that will look more. Not so much like the NFL but
more like the NBA 10 to 10 to 12 years and then some, guys,
obviously, golf is different, right?
Like my mom and dad, they are 80 and 76 and they come down from
Canada from November 1st, April 1st, and they live in reunions,
and they play nine holes every day.
My dad actually 80 just started. Breaking eight.
So Gulf Coast a little different than that because it's kind of
the spiritual Quest that we have is well it's like it's
impossible to ever get it right? I just think in those other
sports, a lot of those other guys might have continued to
play, but just the fact that they've been jumping and landing
on their knees for 15 years, they're kind of done.
Yeah. Agree.
And I just I don't think they're going to need from a money
perspective. It's not, you know it's changed
so much that. They're like you said your
tummy. You got 25 million in the bank
and you've got Kids and most of these guys, all have other
interests, whether it's sports, or do a hunting or fishing or
doing different things. They've got the money in the
ability to do it. And why wouldn't they go do it?
Especially if they're not, kabadi isn't allowed to be
competitive anymore. And look, look, I'm grateful to
have the job that I have. I'm grateful to work with the
guys that I work with. Look man, post covid.
This shit's not been a lot of fun, right, right.
And when it was certain way for 13 and a half years and now it's
completely different. I can adapt to it but it's
different for everybody. Like you know, I think I've had
who Bird eats more in the last four months and I've had in my
whole life, I don't even know if I actually think I had to ask my
12 year old had an order from the hotel room.
Yeah. So it's you know it's going to
be that way for a lot of guys and look the idea of what the
used to be. We will never see that time
again. It's not ever going to happen
again ever. So you know it's kind of comes
along that path. Type of idea.
I mean we're going to have a bunch of players who come from a
generation of kids. Growing up on the phone.
They've been entitled quite a bit more than say Hoagies
generation and they're going to be sitting in their hotel room
for at least the next year and a half.
So it's, it's very, it's just fascinating.
So, I honestly think that that is far more difficult on the
players who travel with their families than the ones who don't
even have. Yeah, I would agree College.
These college kids did, what they came from college, where
they're playing video games are being on their social media feed
all night and write to the store and get the same thing.
Just take over the years writing.
Like I had my Pacific at night on Tuesday at Torrey Pines, I
had certain Tex-Mex restaurants in Texas like none of that.
That was kind of to me that was kind of the outlet to be around
like cool people that are doing the same thing that I am that
made traveling like like to where I could handle it but now
it's like, wow. Wow, it's just totally
different. So yeah, I look I just think
that, I think a lot of guys who haven't played well after the
quarantine don't really understand that.
Like deep within we're not in the right place with all this
stuff yet and there's a lot of clutter and confusion on.
Like what's the world going to be like what's going on right
now? All this negativity and tension
and all these things. There's always been there in the
world but it's not been. So conflated.
Well, I'd four months to sit at home and either believe more and
we believe or challenge that and I just It's a lot easier for
people just to keep believing what they believe and now you
got this device. That sends you already things
everything you already agree with.
So it's like, it's very interesting me.
Yeah. It's, there's so much
negativity. And I don't know how you are.
It just seems like there's more access to it, you know, that's
how you did that in front of us, all day every day.
Yeah. And then, you know, with the
breakdown and Leadership, and when I say leadership, I'm not
pointing my fingers at anybody, okay?
You asked me, if someone's a leader of a country and I don't
care what party they're about. If you do I think a lot of that
spaced on narcissism and ego. Then you've never studied
politics and that sound, but doesn't matter.
So all the way back to both sides.
There's been very few. People have just really stood up
and on either side and done racing.
So I mean just you know, just the fact is that.
That's the way I think. What happens now is the device
is negativity has been kind of more allowed, a lack of you know
it's been allowed. So a lot of people who were kind
of keeping it under there Keeping it under their breath.
Look, Tony, and be very easy for me to sit on Twitter and start
ripping on you. And it would probably be a hell
of a lot harder for me to be at your Golf Academy doing it to
your face. No question.
So yeah, it's kind of like it's like a passive-aggressive thing.
We're doing. If you have something to say to
somebody, you know, you should. I mean, how about on the PGA
tour, when guys get their managers to call their coach or
their therapist and Velma not work with him anymore?
When I see stuff like this? Like that.
And I see Guy break down every weekend.
Is it due to mental or is it due to Virtue aspect?
Like integrity and character. I mean, when when Justin Rose
and I split up, he flew to Orlando when we met and we
talked face-to-face. I mean, that's that's how you do
that. Correct.
So that make you do, when you watch him play, whether he's
playing great or he's not man, he plays with so much Integrity.
I mean he's gonna try and get every single shot out of that
score, right. But if you can't call someone
who's helped you for, you know, eight years.
Just to tell you that I don't know how you're going to handle
that fire in the back night. I just don't get it.
I don't think you will. Do you think players coming out
now have less of those qualities of virtue?
You just by the way, everything is or you know, no, I wouldn't.
You know what I mean? I've literally fallen in love
with more Cowan, doblin, and Matt wolf.
I mean, these guys are all different, but they're all
great. Yeah, you know, Matt wolf yelled
at himself on Wednesday when we're out practicing Cameron's.
Fight with him or Tuesday, and he kind of yelled at themselves.
Like Matthew, do not let this place bullying, you, and I
thought that was just so gold effect.
Don't let him bully. You like you're going to, you're
obviously going to be in bad positions, but don't go there
because you're not because you're steering it and then he
was chipping and he came up on the green.
He said to me why am I spending so much time?
Getting terrible ships from there?
One in the turned I was going to but he's like what am I even
doing out here? It was really funny and calm
work out man I can stand behind him and watch him his Halls.
All day all day is Coach Rick has a Class Act and Colin is a
Primo mover Victor hablen. I find to be fascinating.
So yeah, I don't see that. I don't see that in those guys
but I think like my son who's 12, never known.
Like what the current thing is that that could be different and
we you know, we do our best and it's really crazy Tony like
sometimes a parent, you know, you get busy, you have a lot of
things to do those things become cheap.
Babysitter's, it allows you to accomplish what you need to do.
They seem to be Happy and then your kids screws up at school
and you take it away from him. And two weeks later you're like
oh I've got my son back. Yes, he actually sits with me on
the couch and we talked about life and so yeah.
You know what are these things also good?
Yeah, of course, they're good. You know, you could be more
organized, you can do more in a shorter time but we're crazy.
If we don't think that the people who built to do become
the richest people of all time, didn't manufacture it in a way
that we would come completely addicted to it.
And people are Some people, some people get addicted to things
faster than other people, and I'd say it's a better addiction
than crack cocaine, but his same extent, it's going to slow you
down, you know what I mean? Oh, no question, but you touched
on it. One of the things I was going to
ask you about is one of the things that frustrates, you
know, I know we gotta move into this century and it's part of
our existence is teachers but the ability of people on social
media to hide behind keyboards and take Shots at players and
coaches when they've never coached anybody good themselves
or never been in that Arena, drives me crazy.
And that's one of my pet peeves, you know?
I just because like, if I hear somebody take a look, if I hear
somebody take a shot, I'm just saying you you and whoever like
I understand what it's like being out there and often times,
you know, you don't understand all the Dynamics going on.
Same thing. If Lucas played bad, somebody
takes a shot at me. You understand all the Dynamics
but that Of the things that these people will say an attack
teachers and credibility and players drives me crazy.
Once again, dude, like it shouldn't to me if I was your
therapist. Right, if I give if we're before
said this bogeys and see what it said that bogeys in
Jacksonville, which we would have an exotic.
Okay. Have a good.
Yeah, I have a couple beers. I mean, look think about it.
Like one time we were walking down the Fairway and look, no
one's been a bigger punching bag.
To me, the fact is that I didn't start on social media until four
months ago, so he could really see it.
But I had something sent to me that people were kind of
following and some crazy stuff, right?
And it was overlooked, all is by someone who didn't put their
picture, someone who didn't use their name and then someone
who'd never ever met me, like, never met me.
So basically, at that point. So here's what I think one day
where the US Open and I'm walking down the 11 whole site.
I told a congressional with Justin Rose and Hunter Mahan and
they are playing about the Johnson and Phil Mickelson.
So we used to have like fully armed and match once in a while
and we're going down, the Fairway we're going down nine
and some guy yells, hey fully hear your fucking the game up,
like stop ruining Tiger Woods and Rosie lost it and he was
going he grows he's going straight to the ropes and so I
just said Like Justin turn around, good luck, come back and
and whatever he comes back and he says, may you gotta stand up
for yourself. I'm like why like why do I need
to stand up for myself? He's like, well, do that's not
true, what he said no and I said, well what's like, what is
truth? Like, look I said here's the
deal Rosie, I'm sitting here so 12, 2011, five years ago, I was
waiting tables at an Outback Steakhouse.
Okay, now I'm at Congressional. With Justin Rose and Hunter
Mahan. I'm standing next to one of my
heroes Butch Harmon. I'm with Phil Mickelson and
Dustin Johnson, and that guy paid off that guy paid $120 for
a ticket. He looked kind of likes roughly
around 45 or 50. So, can you imagine that?
He came here today to stand outside the ropes and yell,
something like that. It's someone I said, can you
ever imagine yourself doing that?
And he's like, no. And I said so.
If I didn't feel good about myself and then saw Sean Foley
walking down the Fairway with that forever smile.
Telling a story to Butch Harmon looking like, he's totally
enjoying his life. The only way that I would be
able to make myself feel better is to make him feel bad.
Yeah. And I'm not and I'm not going,
I'm not going to give that to that guy.
So look, I'm not ever making a comparison, but what they said
about Newton and Einstein and dr.
King and I mean, The people who really shaped the Earth weren't
really appreciated till they were dead mate.
Yeah. So it's like when, you know, you
know, what it's like over is ruining golf.
I mean, tiger with you, I was trying to do my best but I told
you to never do. I never had a player at for knee
surgeries and and literally went through a divorce and who knows
all the stuff that went on. So it's like I'm doing my best.
I always said to everyone like look if you think it's that easy
then come on like come on out here.
Come out here. So yeah, could the backswing be
a little bit better? Sure.
Of course, it could be a little bit better, is there too much of
this or too much of that? Sure.
Well what makes you think? I'm telling them to do that.
Anyways, what you think you do? You think I want to see the
shaft lean 17 inches forward? You think I want to see someone
drop a half a foot in transition?
Of course, not. I never told anyone do that, my
life. So, you know, that's that's the
whole idea. But I think if you take a deeper
look Within Like, whenever I really had an issue with
someone, but that's more like, in high school and I was like,
14 or 15. All the guys did.
I talk shit to or the ones that I was jealous up?
So, it's like, you know, to me jealousy and envy.
It's kind of like, how should I say this?
I remember reading this somewhere said, oh, like the
jealousy in the Envy or kind of the disdain and hatred toward
someone in a way. It's just, a confused admiration
but interesting because That's just what I that makes sense to
me. Like, that's not me protecting
myself. Look, no one is a bigger critic
of me than me. No one.
I am the one who makes myself wake up at three in the morning
because I think I'm doing a shit job.
It happens at least twice a week.
I think that it's absolutely necessary that when you're
helping people try to achieve their dreams that you have some
insecurities, you must, you must.
So I create these things around me where I have physiologist and
car. Practice who can assess a player
and I have Mark boal that will run the 3D and tell me what he
sees from from his world. So we're we have all these
checks and balances in place so that we don't screw someone up
with our unconscious bias of wanting everyone to look like
Ben Hogan, which I love I do. Why wouldn't you?
Yeah but how many people can actually do that?
Like how many people can be Simone Bales?
So we watch your like do a flip and rotate through the air and
say see where she puts her arms when she He's maybe one of the
greatest athletes to ever live, who found the exact sport that
she should be in. That's, that's so you can't, you
can't all of kind of those girls can do a single flip with one
spins she can do to, and she could do two and three it, you
can't teach them that they can't do that.
So you know that to me when you see that special level of like a
Ben Hogan or a DJ for Tiger Woods and one of these players,
I mean, That's just a lot of them.
They're making everybody look great.
That's it, Stephen and II like which as you know at one of the
things that I realized when I first started coming out on
tour, I was you know, I felt real out of place and I thought
I was the only one that worried every day that I was going to
screw somebody up and was insecure.
And then The more I've had the opportunity to get to know and
become friends with and talk with people, like you, you
realize that most everybody that's out there that help In
those guys or girls has those feelings and then it's okay to
feel that way. But like, for me, I first
started going. I first started going out.
I was like, man, I was like shit, like I'm the only like
Kali. I'm never going to be any good
at this because every day I'm stressed and worried that I'm
fucking somebody up. Yeah.
I mean yeah I think look we know what we know.
Basically, we know enough for the principles, the physics and
the kinetics behind the golf swing.
All these swings that look really, different are still
really powered the same people. You know, people say, well, it
just, you know, they'll put a picture up of like the put a
picture up of like Jim Furyk, and Dustin Johnson, and Rory,
and whoever else at the top of their backswing and say, proves
you can play from anywhere, but if you really know what you're
measuring, you're going to see a lot of the same things.
So yeah, the look is different. Like the look is different.
But it's like a if you have a Ford Fusion that has a Ferrari
engine, you have a Ferrari, it's not a full.
So you know if you have a Ferrari with a Ford engine, you
have a Ford so it's might look like Ferrari but it is not.
So I think that's really important is to understand that
for one and then two I've done a good job of having the
opportunity to work with loads of players but kind of was like,
know what? I think you'd be really good
with Mark Blackburn's. I think you'd be really good
with Scott. Hamilton, I have a friend named
juice crackle. I think you could really help
you and so I think one of the things I realized I'd like the
at the end of my career, at the end of my career is I help
people build their successful Stables.
That that feels that feels amazing, dudes, to be able to
like the idea of the guy saying, like and I get this all the
time, you know makes sense on why you came in the Pro Shop,
all those years and introduce yourself to everyone.
And during rain delays talk to us, I'm like, I would Humanity
You is astounding to me. But then the funny thing is that
I also get wow. You're not as as arrogant and as
full as yourself as I thought you were.
I mean, that's my favorite and then I just tell people, like,
have you ever met me before? No, can I give you some advice?
Yes, for the rest of your life. Never ever make a comment about
someone that you haven't met, right?
I mean, even my 12 year old son, he's at the point where in the
grocery store the other day and the guy at the counter was being
like a Supreme type to the lady behind the counter and it was
getting a little terse. And I was about to say something
and then he kind of just rattled off.
And and I just explained to the lady look that wasn't about you.
That's just about him and whatever she was like, yeah, I
understand and coin goes to me, we're walking the car, he goes,
man. Dad, you gotta wonder what that
had gone through his life to act like that.
You know what I mean, man, if we could get, like, I know in first
grade, they learn math and they learn all that, but if people
could understand like, if we could be teaching kids like
little philosophical. Good lessons like people don't
see you for who you are? They see you for who they think
you are. So guess what?
If you've been taught that someone from Afghanistan, it's
going to put a bomb on his back and walk into your school.
Then when you meet someone from Afghanistan, I mean, I know you
got to be very scared to get. Is that happen there?
Yeah, of course it does. But most people, if they haven't
had a war for a thousand years because people want that.
So that's just, that's the whole thing is, just realize those
people have that, that unconscious bias that they do.
Don't even know like they don't even know they have it.
That's the danger of it. So you know I mean obviously
this not have talked for both but it didn't talk for golf.
It's just this is about coaching.
And to me, you know, we're coach, look at Cameron Champ,
champ champ, is this just out of this world Talent.
Well that's a great thing but it's got a curse to because the
comments always well y'see not performing better and it's like
well you know hitting the ball really far.
Every time is a massive Advantage but Cameron two or
three more years of working on more, the Artistry and the
softer stuff and he's gonna, I don't know how he'll shoot over
68 any day. But when you are gifted with the
ability to hit it harder than anyone with no spin, then
learning to hit it as soft as the best with a ton of spin is
probably going to take some work, the thing I love about
Cameron and that you, we talked about this is not only how far
he hits it but how effortless he makes it, you know, it doesn't
look like he's trying to not take anything away from Bryson.
But when Bryce and hit the tee ball to me, Me, it looks like
he's trying to hit it hard. You know, would Cameron hits a
drive? It doesn't look like that to me.
Oh yeah. That I mean, that's just Nolan
Ryan, right? I mean, you're looking at the
peak of athleticism, right there.
Now, give them a 46 inch driver. Remember a lot of the numbers
you see with him the driver, that's two inches shorter than
normal. So when he just goes to a
standard driver, I mean his ball speeds like 198 at a deep.
If you really said, okay, I'm going to make my stance meaning
almost stands with his feet together.
So, I'm going to make myself a little bit wider.
I'm going to get a little more force in that direction, right?
Hmm. If I'm in a Linked In My
backswing, I'm an increase, the hand path a little bit which
allow me more time to put impulse into Chef.
I mean, he could potentially be 210 ball speed but it's yet
another. He's it is crazy because you
know, he's a solid looking at athlete but he's not like 65
2:30. Right, right.
But the thing is, it's like that's the case.
But if you were to put like Something to detect force in the
gripped, and then halve Maan Force plates, and then have them
on 3D. You would see incredible peaks
in certain places that you wouldn't see anywhere.
So yeah, it's powerless effort but power is nothing but effort,
right? It's nothing but after, but if
you have a body that can kind of stay in those angles because
you're really unlimited in rotation, then you're able to
make it look, you know, that, Rory go to that, it looks
amazing to, right, right? Well, that you mean, you're born
with Building to do that. That is you can do yoga.
You can do Pilates, you can train with Colby Wayne and Greg
Davies and all the best in the world and they'll improve you.
But I think my bird is about 20 inches.
If I worked on it for three years, I could probably get it
to 27. So that's the whole thing.
But, you know, you look at Cameron and you think, okay,
Cameron different kid, right? He's up one of the very few guys
on tour who I hate this word, but I just use the words.
People use it mixed race but you know, growing up in America with
With a black father and a white mother and being mixed race.
And feeling like you're stuck in the middle of these two
arguments, I mean, that can't be easy.
So I was just wondering, you know, when people don't have
confidence in themselves or they doubt their ability.
I mean, how much of that is learned by the time we're 11 and
it's like our whole life. We have to strip all that shit
off to see the beauty that's within so, you know what, I
bring that up and talk to him about it 100%, but I try to put
him around other people who have been through that same thing and
if they're a little older and they kind of The way to see it
100% because question, well, look, if as human beings, if we
don't feel like we're enough and how we ever going to achieve.
So it's amazing, you know, because his men were not, you
know, be tough. Take it like a man, what did it
take it? Like a man was asking me, so
take it. Like a man means you're not
going to cry when you should cry and you're not going to show
vulnerability when you should. So you're going to pretend to be
strong, you're going to hold it all in and you like to become
shit because of it because all the stuff you need to deal with.
You're not facing, so it becomes Medicaid those we cross becomes
relationships becomes like, it's just such a not playing good
like they might literally Cry On The Range and I look at guys all
the time and wonder how many of them that would help more than
just a lot of them. A lot of nice big.
Yeah, man. It's so funny.
Like how many guys on tour after, you know, how many human
beings have to get their back adjusted and get their next
Fixed and yeah of course the golf swing is attacks in motion,
but we did, if you're carrying the weight of the world on your
shoulders all day, it's probably not going to make your neck and
your back feel very good. So I think that that's a Tiger
Woods man he played with an incredible freedom and you know
even if he's just watched tiger you know when he gets to the
course everything he does is in slow motion.
It's just I mean you watch him walk on the Range.
Everything is in slow motion, you watch him warm up,
everything is in slow motion, like he understood
physiologically. The place that he needs to To
get himself to compete. And I think it looks much more
like he's focusing on getting into a place where he's relaxed,
where he's going to have access to his skills.
Cup subconsciously rather than being looking tense and person.
If you watch tiger, 400 your job when he's warming up.
You wouldn't know if he's gonna go shoot 707 over because he
always looks the same man. You just and on the other hand
I've ever done it, but sent that's back to Europe of who's
going to play. I mean, how could You advertise
the people, you're competing with that, you have no idea what
you're doing right now. It's it's um, it's astonishing
to me like it's it's amazing to everyone.
Your eyes of the Ryder Cup and I won't name names but I was I was
walking across the road. I was walking across the Fairway
to go and see tiger a Rosier Hunter.
I can't remember which one it was and the one team was playing
behind the other team and there's two guys on the one team
sitting up there, just advertising all the way the Tee
Box that they did. Not have what it takes that week
it was just I said man that's Unbelievable.
Right. Why would you want to know about
that? Why would you want everybody
know. I think that's the problem.
That's the unconscious part. There's no way.
Like I've done this a lot in the past.
I filmed guys on the course when they're playing well and then
when they're playing bad and I've never had one who watched
it when they were playing bad and they weren't embarrassed.
And then they looked at me almost without a sense of hope
saying I don't even know I'm doing this.
Yeah. So to me the best players of all
time in every sport. Had a real awareness.
A real awareness, like amazing watching Jordan play in that
docu-series on Jordans life, right?
Right. That was fantastic.
And he hardly ever to never bitched, at the raft.
Like, after a bad call, like he just moved on to the next play.
You don't see that now. The NBA.
Yeah, it's yeah. And the thing is back then,
like, sometimes it was an obvious foul because like you
were on the ground bleeding. I mean, those guys were banging
each other, right? No.
Yeah, absolutely knocking. Hell out of each other.
And so that, you know, that's like basketballs been a little
bit more soccer like, like, I like when they do it in slow
motion and you see the guy's not even, he's not even been touched
and he's falling backwards. So, to me, I think that's just a
really big part of his ability to be such a champion.
Was he just moved on so elegantly from moment to moment
to moment and to moment and knew that basically his career would
be an amalgamation of 30 billion moments rather than you know,
it's going to look it's going to be good and it's going to be bad
and if we if we knew the answer, We'd be charging a million
dollars, a lesson and we don't and yes, and we can only, we can
only utilize knowledge and data and information to help us.
But we still have to remember that a lot of the greatest wedge
players and greatest players in the world.
A lot of them have their local Pro that was in their junior
program and Coach them all the way through college.
And, you know, it's, I think that, you know, like a guy like
Mike shy who basically built this whole scenario.
With, with Brighton on single links and to get the grip in
position where all the joints are locked in the end range of
motion. And that would be the most
stable way to do it and, and all that.
And this, that Matt I kind of feel like the Golf Community to
have just haven't given him any credit at all because he took
the brunt of how this crazy, how this crazy swing was the the
whole time. So I mean, that guy knows, Bryce
and swing inside out Friday has put on desk prices, put on
Distance. But a lot of that has been more
sensationalized. I remember watching it off the
range at Augusta. As an amateur, he drops his
hands made a stance wider made a longer backswing.
Yeah, I remember watching them at the Walker cup.
It lifts them say man's with, I was over there with Robbie
Shelton, and they were going to apply to practice run together
whenever he wants. He just, he had that.
What he? I forget what he called it, but
it was what he wanted to hit the big drive, he wants different
than what he would normally do, which looks to me striking.
Only similar to what he's trying to swing like now.
Yeah, no no, of course. So I think really how big and
how big how big and strong he got.
I mean, I think we saw that out of the rough more than anything
because the fact is, is there's people who aren't nearly as
strong as in who have a fireball seat.
So if you know what I mean, that's of course, he can put
more Force into the grip, he's heavier.
So just to to overall mass and friction he'll have he'll be
able to create more torque without slipping but that's just
dude Brown. Action forces are the icing on?
What is already? A good cake.
Okay. That is not the key to this game
at all. There's no way that is it.
What is the key to the game? What do you think the key to the
game? Well, obviously what's connected
to the grip, you know, I hear young instructors now.
Talk shit about Bob Koski and Jim flick because there were
like, yeah, just, you know, swing the hands and arms in the
body will react. And I'm like, oh my God, you
cannot talk about them like that.
You have no idea. Bob Fosse was 70 years of age,
still hitting it, 300 It's swinging his arms.
Of course, he was using the ground and using the slings in
the body, but more born is children.
The first things we use our hands and our eyes for
everything. So a second baseman, in the
World Series, the ball gets hit left of him.
He goes right? And then he Springs laughed and
he jumps and he catches it. He was never thinking of
loading, and he was never thinking about creating
horizontal and vertical Force. He was thinking about catching
it, and because he's an athlete, he did the other.
So no one's thinking dies, catch.
Thinking cash. So you know that's that's just a
big part. Yeah.
I-i've had a swing Catalyst, long time.
I love it that. It's a great company.
It's another excellent tool to use, but most players I would
put on a swing kabbalist, trying to get them to improve something
else. I'm sure they can't hit a
short-sighted, bunker shot out of wet sand.
I know that I probably probably can't, that's probably going to
help us potentially earn more money than increasing a peak in
a force at a point in the swing. Like there's so So many like
they might struggle chipping, uphill into the grain.
I haven't met very few don't know there's, you know, what
we're coaching but there's so many opportunities if we're
charging five percent, there's benefits to revenue in so many
places that don't have to be P. 1, p 2 p 5, P9 P10.
And look, I've done all of that. I when I first came on tour, I
had a little different attitude than you.
When I first came on tour, I couldn't believe they.
Let anyone else out there. I was like, why are they
standing on my range? This is crazy to me.
Okay. Every single bad shot that was
hit was only due to technique and that was only the answer.
And you know what? When I believe that then
everything seemed to match that belief, then two things started
to happen and then had to challenge my belief like but
maybe it's a little deeper than what you think it is.
Well its got like 10 times Dicus got 10 times deeper since.
Then what was the big snow? Was it that challenge your
beliefs on that period? Well, I think I was just very
Lucky when I started out there that Shawn O'Hara, Stephen Ames,
Sean O'Hair and Hunter Mahan, and Justin Rose could kind of
benefit from the same thing. Hmm.
So I felt that they didn't move their lower bodies enough for
their backs Wings. Basically, if I got them to
Pivot more, like, Hogan and sneeze, that would be helpful
for them. Now, that's still very much the
case to this day. I mean, they talked about how
scene might have been the best athlete to ever play golf.
Well, like, who unweighted? And More and allowed more time
than he did. I mean he's probably could have
kept his lower body still and not even moved it and still been
awesome. Yeah.
But kind of the aspect of being centered going more from like my
more ads, more than Mac ideas of the head.
Not moving. That benefited all of them.
But I felt like when I started with tiger that I wasn't had
enough knowledge but I was still caught in my preference and
quite honestly, I just basically Lee over taught him.
It wasn't necessary if we like I think back to it now and of
course it's a lot easier to look back at something and go.
Wow. I could have done this and that
but no course site. What was I doing?
Even speaking to the guy like I mean it's Tiger Woods dude.
Like if he you know Tiger Woods wants to hit some drawers and
some Fades, I've never met anyone who can aim properly all
the time on their own. I've never met anyone who kind
of keeps it consistent ball position all the time on their
own, I started with Danny Willett.
Man, that was like full surgery, dude.
We needed to go. We needed to go as big as
possible because we just we had to but I think that was the
mistake because I kind of underestimated where tiger was
at like within his heart and his mind with how much his life had
changed. And that was what we were seeing
a lot of in the technique. I mean you're literally talking
about someone who went from pretty much being invisible to
visible overnight Invincible to Visible overnight.
Yeah, it's so to think that that was going to be fixed with a
better, take away and a different plane was probably a
mistake. But you know what, I love the
guy I feel like I was there for me to very difficult time and I
was so grateful for his professionalism and his
friendship and we still, you know what, I still hang out with
every single guy that I don't work with.
That's why one that says a lot. That's a lot and that being
said, I'm about to go and see Hunter Mahan as we speak.
Awesome. Well, hey, folks.
And this has been great, I really appreciate you taking the
time and also my friend and I appreciate also just the person
you are out there always willing to look at a video talk to
people and you know you've been great me and I appreciate it and
I think persistent. All right, Tony have a great day
bud.