1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,280 Doctor Derek Hamilton is an economist, but he'll quickly 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:08,760 clarify that fact. The identity that I'm most drawn 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,080 to is a humanist. Doctor Hamilton's entire 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,280 approach to the theories and practices of economics is 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,800 humanistic. It centers on the well-being of 6 00:00:17,800 --> 00:00:21,320 people, and it's deeply interconnected with policy and 7 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,320 with reparative justice. I'm a proud economist, but 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:31,080 economics purports itself to be a science when in fact there is 9 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,720 no such thing as economy devoid of politics. 10 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,560 We make a mistake when we don't recognize that the politics of 11 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:46,200 our time, that the ways in which we come up with structures and 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:50,240 policies are related to who we think is deserving and 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:55,280 undeserving, are related to our ability to have solidarity and 14 00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:59,120 the ways in which we command from our government, whose job 15 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:04,879 it is to serve the people, to implement policies that benefit 16 00:01:04,879 --> 00:01:07,920 us all. Doctor Hamilton is the founding 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,040 director of the Institute on Race, Power and Political 18 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:14,640 Economy, an organization that is housed at the New School in New 19 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,760 York City. And like Doctor Hamilton, the 20 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,720 way the Institute operates is justice oriented. 21 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:25,880 It's knowledge for action. But we don't do knowledge 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,960 creation for the sake of knowledge creation, although 23 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,240 that's important, useful, has value. 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,400 We engage in truth seeking for a purpose of achieving justice. 25 00:01:37,960 --> 00:01:41,200 One path of justice the institute is forging right now 26 00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:44,920 is a program called Baby Bonds. Baby Bonds is a wealth 27 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,360 democratizing effort aimed at narrowing the wealth gap for 28 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,680 kids to grow up in low income families. 29 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,440 In other words, it does not lock in inequality at birth. 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,960 Welcome to Path Breakers, a show about what it takes to cut 31 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,920 through the noise and red tape and all of the other obstacles 32 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:05,080 to progress. I'm Tracy Pearson and I work on 33 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,600 the communications team at the Kresge Foundation. 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,000 And I'm Jamie Bennett. I work at the intersection of 35 00:02:10,039 --> 00:02:12,600 arts, culture, and equitable community development. 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,880 On each episode of this podcast, we talk with a different path 37 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,920 breaker, someone who's forging a new way forward in their own 38 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,800 community. Today we welcome Doctor Derek 39 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,680 Hamilton to talk about what world is possible when we build 40 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:30,480 our economy to intentionally serve all people, what world is 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,920 possible when everyone has access to not just income, but 42 00:02:33,920 --> 00:02:37,200 also wealth, And what world is possible if we build a human 43 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:41,800 rights economy. Welcome to the podcast. 44 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,520 We are so humbled and delighted that you are able to join us 45 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,440 today. Where are you joining us from? 46 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:52,160 I am joining from Brooklyn, USA. Brooklyn, NY. 47 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:53,360 Where? In Brooklyn. 48 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,480 Crown Heights. Awesome. 49 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,920 So while we're doing introductions, I wanted to ask 50 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:00,480 you, how did you come up with the name of the institute? 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,320 I imagine as the founder you played some role in that. 52 00:03:03,920 --> 00:03:07,520 You know and I love our name, race, power and political 53 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,040 economy. Rarely will you find when you do 54 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,960 a scan of institute's the word power included. 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,320 But at the end of the day, isn't this all about power? 56 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:22,480 Power both as an input and power as an outcome isn't 1 of the 57 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,920 essence of freedom and self determination, the ability to do 58 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:32,000 things. So at the institute we we use 59 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,240 the word race, but race is shorthand for a more technical 60 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,440 term, identity group stratification, which is 61 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,320 essentially the ways in which human beings or people are 62 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:50,200 divided into identity groups. And unfortunately those identity 63 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:54,720 groups are treated differently, often in transactional ways. 64 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:59,280 So in that context, there's somewhat of a political purpose 65 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,200 that we highlight the word race. But in general, the Institute is 66 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,800 about the study of stratification along identity, 67 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,120 power and political economy. I'm so interested that you all 68 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,440 named it political economy, not politics and economy. 69 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,240 You know what is political economy that's different than 70 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:22,640 economy. I mean that's a great question 71 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,720 when you think about any transaction, I mean what's a 72 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,320 pure example that we often give in an economic one-on-one class? 73 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:34,080 We talk about a farmers market, for example. 74 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,400 Well, in order to go to a farmer's market, you got to have 75 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,440 a permit. Markets are social and political 76 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:44,800 constructions. So the word political economy is 77 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:47,200 more accurate. And here's a bigger point. 78 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,920 The bigger point that we all need to know is we get to 79 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,040 choose. We get to define and choose the 80 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,080 economy we want. We need to ask the question, 81 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:59,160 what is the purpose of an economy? 82 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,200 And answering that question, that opens the door beyond the 83 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,480 traditional ways in which we think about economics to the 84 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:11,480 political part, to defining what we value and creating the 85 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,560 structures to achieve it. Thank you very much. 86 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,600 I once heard you say in an interview that one needs some 87 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,000 base level of resource to participate in transaction and 88 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,000 you touched a little bit on transaction earlier. 89 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:30,040 And so I want to go down that that path of the necessary base 90 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:32,840 level of resource. Like let's when you say 91 00:05:32,840 --> 00:05:35,920 resource, my mind immediately goes to you got to have a little 92 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,600 bit of money if you want to participate in any sort of 93 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,000 buying a house, going to college, putting your child on 94 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,600 daycare, anything within the economy. 95 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,960 Is my thinking accurate in that? Tracy, you're spot on. 96 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,280 At the end of the day, in American Society and society in 97 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:54,840 general, when we think about freedom, when we think about 98 00:05:54,840 --> 00:05:59,280 agency, when we think about choice, concepts like the 99 00:05:59,280 --> 00:06:03,840 ability to have political freedom, civil freedom, so 100 00:06:03,840 --> 00:06:08,000 political rights, civil rights, however inadequate we may be in 101 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,960 implementing them in our society, they're not really 102 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:15,720 contested in this modern day. We believe that people deserve 103 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,840 the right to have a civil protest. 104 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,000 We believe that people deserve the right to choose their 105 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,920 elected officials. Again, we're not so good at 106 00:06:25,920 --> 00:06:29,160 implementing them, but we don't contest those as concepts. 107 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:31,680 What about the concept of economic rights? 108 00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:37,280 What about the concept of being able to have some baseline level 109 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:39,920 of resource? Because we know without that 110 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,880 baseline RE level of resource, you don't have choice and agency 111 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,760 in your life. Without some income, without a 112 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,000 home. You know, the ability to civilly 113 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,400 protest when you are unhoused, the ability to vote in an 114 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,920 election when you're hungry. That's not freedom. 115 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:04,960 That's not choice. In order to partake, you need 116 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,200 something by which you have some power to engage in that 117 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,040 transaction. Otherwise, two things can 118 00:07:12,040 --> 00:07:14,800 happen. You're at the whim of somebody's 119 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,640 charity or the vulnerability of their exploitation. 120 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:24,200 So this concept of economic rights needs to be included in 121 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,280 our concepts of Freedom and Justice. 122 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:32,440 What government should have a responsibility to do is invest 123 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:36,200 in their people so that they have the resources in order to 124 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:40,400 reap the rewards of their ingenuity, in order to be 125 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:45,560 innovative, in order to achieve all those things that I think an 126 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,000 enlightened society would not contest. 127 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,840 So that critical ingredient of a job, that critical ingredient to 128 00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:58,920 be able to go see a doctor when you are most vulnerable without 129 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,600 the threat and fear of finance at that point is something that 130 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,800 is necessary if we really want a true and free society. 131 00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:11,360 And well beyond the individual. It also promotes things like 132 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,760 tranquility. It also allows us to be less 133 00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:21,480 vulnerable to despots, a despotic politic that's willing 134 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:28,200 to exploit the worst in US by invoking fear so that we care 135 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,960 about relative status. In other words, fascism thrives 136 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,120 off of insecurity. So a society that promotes 137 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:40,960 economic rights in an inclusive way that ensures that all groups 138 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,120 are included not only has the benefit of investing the 139 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:50,160 resources that people need in order to thrive, it also has 140 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,360 tranquility effects. It also leaves us less 141 00:08:53,360 --> 00:09:00,400 vulnerable to a politic of division again, where some 142 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:05,600 leaders appeal to the worst in US, which is some value over 143 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,400 some other person because of their identity. 144 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:13,440 One of the things I want to just slow down and make sure I'm not 145 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,080 missing it. So I don't have a degree in 146 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,280 economics, but so if you were going to ask, you know, me and 147 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,280 my other BA, you know, liberal or BA holders about economics, I 148 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:26,240 would have assumed that it's all about money. 149 00:09:26,560 --> 00:09:28,600 But you've been talking all about people. 150 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:32,760 So why is an economist who should be talking about money 151 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,920 talking all about people? I'm trained as an economist, but 152 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,720 I value people. I believe in people, I trust 153 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,080 people. And part of it, I was raised 154 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,040 that way. Part of it I learned because 155 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:51,320 I've been exposed to environments that facilitate my 156 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,560 learning to love people. And then I don't know how much 157 00:09:54,560 --> 00:09:58,160 of it is innate, but at the end of the day, shouldn't this all 158 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,400 be about it, be about people? So again, if I'm making a, a 159 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,720 contribution to my field is economic, I would encourage my 160 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:11,920 brethren to begin every class that they teach, every lecture 161 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,120 that they offer with that simple question, what is the purpose of 162 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,320 an economy? And if you ask that, I don't 163 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,720 think it's so radical. I don't think it's so out of 164 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:26,000 here to focus on our most treasured assets, which are 165 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:30,600 people, people and, and, and you know, not only from a value 166 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:35,160 standpoint should we value people, but it turns out that it 167 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:41,000 leads to positive economic benefits, not only benefiting 168 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,120 the individual, but our whole society. 169 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,360 The purpose of an economy should be to promote our productive 170 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,360 capabilities and self determining ways. 171 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,240 It should be to promote human flourishing. 172 00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,120 It should be to promote tranquility. 173 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:02,960 It should be to promote the capabilities to define, 174 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:07,120 determine, and have access to partners for love. 175 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,160 It should be the promotion of family formation. 176 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:17,040 So it's not not an extensive, it's not an extensive list, but 177 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,880 it is indeed a list. Those are some cornerstone 178 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:24,680 values that I have, and I suspect others out there have in 179 00:11:24,680 --> 00:11:26,680 a really good place to start and define. 180 00:11:26,680 --> 00:11:29,920 It so this so in your formation the economy should be centered 181 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:32,560 on people, not on money. Yeah. 182 00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:36,320 The only other thing I would add to that definition is the 183 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,440 environments in which we live. Money becomes a medium by which 184 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,320 we can help execute those values, but the purpose should 185 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,160 be people in the environments in which we live. 186 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,480 And I, I love the indigenous concept that they personify the 187 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:55,000 environment. They talk about it's live 188 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:59,560 breathing self. And for obvious reasons, we need 189 00:11:59,560 --> 00:12:01,760 a thriving environment or we suffer. 190 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,440 I use the phrasing from my colleague Demon Drummer who 191 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,280 works at the institute where we don't simply say the 192 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,040 environment, you know, we're intentional with a lot of the 193 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,000 words that we use. We say environment in which we 194 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,000 live. That has a place based notion as 195 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,240 well. The uniqueness that's associated 196 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,560 with a locality, the personification of our 197 00:12:25,560 --> 00:12:29,920 environment, the notion that it's a living, breathing entity 198 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,440 is something that we need to grasp when understanding 199 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,400 political economy and promoting political economy first and 200 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,400 foremost. Because if we don't have a 201 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,600 sustainable environment, we're vulnerable. 202 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,400 But well, even beyond that, that the land itself is so enriching, 203 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,200 so important and needs to be cherished by people. 204 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:55,280 And we also should recognize at the end of the day, the Land's 205 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,520 going to outlive us. So if we don't take care of it, 206 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:02,320 then we we clearly are going to suffer existential consequence 207 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,600 consequences. If the land isn't healthy, none 208 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:06,360 of the people on that land can be healthy. 209 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,560 That's so simple and plain spoken and the accurate, Tracy. 210 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,280 And that was the way to say it. Point blank period. 211 00:13:15,680 --> 00:13:19,440 I want to talk to you a little bit about something that Doctor 212 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,880 William Manning Maribel started, and I believe that you have so 213 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,960 eloquently carried the torch on since its passing, and that's 214 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:31,040 Baby Bonds. Doctor Maribel, the late Doctor 215 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:36,960 Maribel, you know, did so much for this, this world, this 216 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,160 place. I'm glad that you referenced 217 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,680 him. He also was really good at 218 00:13:41,680 --> 00:13:44,720 alliteration. So he he coined that phrase, to 219 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,120 my knowledge, baby bonds. Technically, it's not a baby 220 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:50,760 bond, it's not a bond, it's a trust account. 221 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:53,080 But we love alliteration of bond. 222 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,440 But the idea is pretty simple. The idea recognizes that the 223 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,280 ways in which wealth is generated in the American 224 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,960 context is that it is wealth that begets more wealth. 225 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,200 So let me break that down really quick. 226 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,720 It is often a down payment that separates A renter from a 227 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,160 homeowner. It is often some capital that 228 00:14:16,160 --> 00:14:21,520 separates a worker who has an entrepreneurial spirit that has 229 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:26,400 some innovative idea from being able to take that idea, that 230 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:31,960 spirit, and marketize it. It is often a debt free college 231 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:36,200 education that separates a worker from a managerial or 232 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,480 professional occupation that offers them the benefits of a 233 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,920 four O 1K plan. So it is understanding that the 234 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:52,160 access to wealth in our society is often dictated by those that 235 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,320 have capital and those who do not. 236 00:14:54,920 --> 00:15:01,240 It also recognizes that far more than an outcome, the real value 237 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,520 of wealth, the essence of wealth, is what it can do for 238 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,600 you, the power that it provides, the capability to have financial 239 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,480 agency and one's life. The idea around baby bonds is 240 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:19,320 democratizing wealth for everyone, ensuring that every 241 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,120 child that's born will have set aside when they become a young 242 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,120 adult, access to some capital to put them into a vehicle that 243 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,400 will passively appreciate over their life. 244 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:36,160 That will generate wealth in ways that most Americans who 245 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,600 have wealth are able to generate. 246 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:43,200 That it ensures in a moral, authentic way that we all have 247 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:47,680 the capability to reap the rewards in terms of attaining 248 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,680 wealth from our efforts, our ingenuity and all those things 249 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:56,400 that we talk about when we say we want people to, to, to, to, 250 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,880 to engage in productive activities. 251 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:00,640 So how are we? Going to so it's maybe. 252 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:01,680 Bonds. Oh, sorry. 253 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:04,160 No, no, I got excited. That was my question. 254 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:08,840 Oh yeah, How do we get them? Tracy's got a baby, and the baby 255 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,280 needs a bond. I would have loved Avatan, 256 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,760 almost 10 month old and the idea that he would have been born 257 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,400 into some some relative asset. He would. 258 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,400 As soon as he hits the world, that asset is there. 259 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,160 That that sounds great. And you know what, Tracy? 260 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:30,040 When I was originally conceiving of the idea, the choice of 261 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,480 babies in and of itself was a political choice. 262 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,160 Again, we label the poor as undeserving. 263 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,960 We label the poor as suffering, the consequences of their lack 264 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,200 of knowledge, their lack of effort, which is completely 265 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,000 wrong. So I said, OK, what about a 266 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:48,520 baby? What about a baby? 267 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,160 A baby that's born? So that was a strategic choice. 268 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,480 But for the idea, the big thing is when you're a young adult at 269 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,040 that key point in your life that you get access to some capital, 270 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,840 some seed capital. So if I had my way, you know, 271 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:06,640 your child would, even though they've already been born, would 272 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,480 also have access to some capital when they're a young adult. 273 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,920 So that was a strategic political decision because it's 274 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,319 not enough to have good ideas. We need to figure out the ways 275 00:17:16,319 --> 00:17:20,240 in which we can implement power to achieve not only the ideas, 276 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,560 but a whole new paradigm that centers people in the 277 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,079 environments in which we live. So how are we going to achieve 278 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:29,160 it? Build power. 279 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:33,960 Do some demonstrations A partner with philanthropy to see 280 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:37,320 demonstrations. Partner with philanthropy to 281 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:42,560 help seed new ideas by ways in which we understand inequality 282 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:45,080 and poverty. To understand that the root of 283 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:49,080 it is not in a deficit population, but a deficit 284 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:53,480 society that does not invest in them the way that they should be 285 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:58,800 by fiduciary obligation, responsible for doing building 286 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,280 that power through ideas, through demonstrations, through 287 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:07,880 collaborations, through coalition's in order to achieve 288 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,400 this new paradigm. Build up movements so that all 289 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,480 these ideas like baby bonds and we could talk about guaranteed 290 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:18,520 income, we can talk about single payer health insurance. 291 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:22,520 That all these ideas that may seem common sense when we break 292 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,360 them down on an individual level, become the broad common 293 00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:29,720 sense of all our major institutions. 294 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,880 And with baby bonds there, there's empirical evidence that 295 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:38,480 this asset is a value to the economy. 296 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,360 So I I often struggle with with why is there pushback on these 297 00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:43,840 things? Why, why? 298 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,920 Why isn't it something that's universally adopted? 299 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,160 It's for the betterment of society. 300 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:49,480 It's for the betterment of economy. 301 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,880 Like, why? You know, it's practical 302 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,920 government policy that leads to positive social change. 303 00:18:56,880 --> 00:18:58,320 And that's, I think, where I struggle. 304 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:00,480 You know, I'm so with you, right? 305 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:02,960 So sometimes the solutions become obvious. 306 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,280 If somebody does not have enough income, well, provide them with 307 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,680 some income. You know why poor people are 308 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,880 poor? They don't have enough money to 309 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:14,400 sit. If they have more money, they 310 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,600 wouldn't be poor. And I'm obviously I'm being 311 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,840 somewhat tongue in cheek. They can't save because they 312 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,040 don't make money like. That's true too, right you? 313 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,480 Want people to save money? Give them some money to save. 314 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,680 Yeah, all of this. If somebody does not have enough 315 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:32,640 money to go see a doctor, well, if they haven't, if if, if 316 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,480 they're able to see a doctor and it took it is paid in a more 317 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,680 collective single payer way, then they have enough money to 318 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:43,600 go see a doctor. So anyway, these ideas which I 319 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,200 call essentially economic rights and I add the word inclusive 320 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:51,880 economic rights to make sure that we learn from the lessons 321 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,680 of the past when we did the economic rate right to old age 322 00:19:55,680 --> 00:20:00,040 pension like Social Security, then we don't do it in exclusive 323 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:01,720 ways. When we originally passed that 324 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,040 legislation, we excluded domestic and agricultural 325 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,520 workers. Well, in the 1930s, who were 326 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:09,240 domestic and agricultural workers? 327 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,120 Black folks. There you go, right. 328 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,640 So we need to add that word inclusive economic rights so 329 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,560 that we are when we design the policies, when we implement the 330 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:25,320 policies, we are intentional that we include those most 331 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,960 marginalized identity groups. So coming back to this question 332 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:33,960 at hand, oftentimes and again, because we're in a paradigm that 333 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,280 treats people as somebody to be managed, their behaviors are 334 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,080 something to be managed by the state to be incentivized. 335 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:48,400 What do we do for poor people? We isolate them, we incarcerate 336 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:52,520 them, We control their fertility and family formation. 337 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:55,120 We can script them to our military. 338 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,680 We do these things in a way that treats them as if they are 339 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,720 supposed to be managed and that they are deficit population 340 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:08,320 rather than a concept like baby bonds and guaranteed income. 341 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,240 We invest in poor people. We provide the investment so 342 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,560 that they can thrive. We use the term in philanthropy. 343 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,520 Trust based. Trust based philanthropy, yes. 344 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,120 We need trust based governance. We need a government that invest 345 00:21:24,120 --> 00:21:29,000 in people and lets them thrive. So why is it so hard? 346 00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,560 Because the common sense is backwards. 347 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,480 Because we need a new paradigm, a new understanding, a new 348 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:39,320 emphasis on what we care about as an economy. 349 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,640 And once we change that paradigm, these ideas, they flow 350 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:45,880 easy. Right now we're swimming 351 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,640 upstream every time we come up with a policy. 352 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,560 And here's what's more, we end up competing with each other. 353 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,120 So people will put guaranteed income juxtaposed against baby 354 00:21:57,120 --> 00:21:59,880 bonds. And which one should we choose? 355 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:05,000 The answer is both. There are concepts of income and 356 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:09,600 wealth, and people need both income and wealth for a variety 357 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,600 of reasons. And that's why we need this 358 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,240 paradigm. Big shout out to the growth fund 359 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,760 down in Georgia. Been doing demonstrations on 360 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,160 guaranteed income and now are trying to show that that the 361 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,640 integrated effect of baby bonds and guaranteed income and how 362 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,840 both income and wealth iterate together not in a linear way but 363 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,480 in the exponential way to improve people's lives. 364 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,000 And I don't, I promise you that I'm not trying to get a free BA 365 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:41,920 in economics. But aren't. 366 00:22:42,360 --> 00:22:44,480 But aren't income and wealth the same thing? 367 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,280 What's the difference between income and wealth? 368 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:53,080 Income is a flow and wealth is a stock, and I know that didn't 369 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,720 answer your question. Well, it answered. 370 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,360 It just. Now I got another question. 371 00:22:56,640 --> 00:22:58,080 OK. What's a flow in the stock? 372 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:06,680 So So a flow income becomes a periodic reward in exchange for 373 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,680 something. Usually it's in the form of 374 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,120 wages. People offer labor, and in 375 00:23:13,120 --> 00:23:17,240 exchange they're rewarded with wages in a periodic way. 376 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,840 Wealth is a stock. Wealth becomes the difference 377 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:25,160 between what you own, the total value of everything you own, 378 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,480 versus the total value of what you owe. 379 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,680 So wealth is a stock, income is a flow. 380 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:38,200 The practical roles of the two is that income is often used to 381 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,920 pay periodic bills, often used to redress subsistence 382 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:49,600 activities, whereas wealth provides that stock that allows 383 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:56,600 you to do perhaps more dramatic things related to your financial 384 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:58,880 well-being. And we can name them. 385 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,680 For example, if you wanted to purchase a home, you generally 386 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,000 need a down payment. You generally need some. 387 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,960 And that's why I began with that phrase, wealth begets more 388 00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,040 wealth. You know, the other added 389 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:16,360 attribute of wealth is that not only is it a stock, it often 390 00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:20,080 generates resources. So you often get a return or 391 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,280 some income associated with wealth. 392 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:27,680 Now people need both and in our society we have gross inequities 393 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:35,160 around income but dramatic inequality around wealth and it 394 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,720 is often tied to something like identity. 395 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,600 So we will find that amongst, say, if we look at black and 396 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,600 white individuals, if we compare black and white individuals 397 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:52,120 across income, not only does wealth disparities and not only 398 00:24:52,120 --> 00:24:57,920 is there wealth disparity at every level of income across 399 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:02,520 race, the disparities grow. So that's a racial dimension. 400 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,640 If I were to show you wealth inequality in America in 401 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,880 general, black or white, we have such high levels of 402 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,000 concentration of wealth irrespective of race that it's 403 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,760 become dysfunctional. And why do I use the word 404 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,680 dysfunctional? The ways in which our 405 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,960 dysfunctional concentration of wealth spills over into our 406 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:31,160 politics allows those at the extreme to Co opt our politics 407 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:37,520 in an anti democratic way so as to structure the rules in favor 408 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,080 of them. Even more so. 409 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,080 Like I don't begrudge the wealthy because they're rich, I 410 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:48,480 begrudge high concentrations of wealth because it's anti 411 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,280 democratic. The ways in which that money can 412 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,880 translate into structuring our society in ways that are 413 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,600 detrimental to all of us. And then, you know, last thing 414 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:04,280 I'll just say on this topic is we have a society for which 415 00:26:05,120 --> 00:26:11,520 Black people have never on mass received public policies to cede 416 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,840 them the capital and the way that Baby Bonds does or is 417 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,520 intended to do. And what's more, even when they 418 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,840 were able to overcome obstacles and accumulate capital, 419 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:27,520 accumulate wealth, it has never had the political codification 420 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,760 to be able to protect it and pass it down from one generation 421 00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,920 to the next. One vivid example that is 422 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,680 recently in the news is Tulsa, OK's. 423 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:47,560 Yeah, violent race, you know, riot for which whatever capital 424 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,520 that was established in that Greenwood neighborhood was 425 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,080 vulnerable to a terrorist destruction. 426 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,640 And that that is an example of of of a vivid example, but not 427 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:04,080 an isolated example that we have not had the political 428 00:27:04,360 --> 00:27:06,960 codification to protect not only our wealth. 429 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,960 And this is really sad and morbid personhood. 430 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,560 Our humanity. Humanity, literally our lives, 431 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,360 and that in that example in Tulsa, we saw how many people 432 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:24,840 literally lost their lives. We can go so many places. 433 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,480 I'm I'm talking context on the issues of race and wealth gap, 434 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,000 the importance to note the systems and the structures of 435 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,360 why things the way that they are, the way that they are. 436 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,920 I want to make sure that we have, we have for the audience a 437 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,800 clear picture of how your organization is related to baby 438 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:46,040 bonds. Yes, I'll begin with our mission 439 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:51,360 as an organization is to generate research concepts, 440 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:59,600 translate them into policy action, engage publicly to help 441 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:04,680 implement those policies and actions, learn from that public 442 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:09,960 engagement to help reform and refine our concepts in research 443 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,600 questions in order to achieve a new political economy that 444 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,040 defines the purpose of an economy and the ways that we've 445 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,280 been talking all along. A way that centers people and 446 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,760 the environments in which we live, not simply for consumption 447 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:31,880 reasons, not simply to redress inequality in a way that allows 448 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:36,000 them to consume, although that's critical and important, but 449 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:40,920 rather as investments so that we can achieve one of the essence 450 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,920 of humanity, which is the ability to be self determining 451 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,920 and productive and to define the ways in which we want to achieve 452 00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,920 our purpose and be able to achieve it with in tranquil, 453 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,760 safe and sustainable environments. 454 00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,480 That's what we do. That sounds lofty and big and we 455 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,680 do it in three ways. We do research and conception. 456 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,160 So often in the Academy, you know, we are situated at a 457 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,400 university, there's a great deal of investments and doing 458 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,680 research and working on conceptions, theories, 459 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,360 frameworks, understanding. Then you see outside of the 460 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,360 Academy a great deal of nonprofit think tank 461 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,360 organizations very focused on policy on practice. 462 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,920 And then you have some advocacy groups focus on public 463 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:36,440 engagement to build movements to facilitate interactions with 464 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:40,520 people so that they can have roles in defining their value 465 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:45,520 and and dictating how their how their structures are set up. 466 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,520 We think you need all three. So at the institute, we're 467 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,440 building something that that works in partnership with so 468 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,760 many people because we need partnerships to achieve paradigm 469 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,200 change. So Baby Bonds fits within this 470 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,360 paradigm. As you know, we began with a we, 471 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,360 we just had a really good conversation about wealth and 472 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,600 the ways in which wealth is generated, the ways in which 473 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,520 it's been structured in America, and what's more, the value of 474 00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:19,720 wealth, what it can do for you. Well, Baby Bonds takes that 475 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,320 information in attempts to operationalize ways in which we 476 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,960 can address those concerns of wealth inequality in a 477 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,960 productive way. Now, we do a lot of public 478 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,360 engagement, like we work very well with the Connecticut 479 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,640 Treasurer's office who took this to market and actually 480 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,880 implemented Baby Bonds in Connecticut. 481 00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:46,320 That's one example of public engagement because not only did 482 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:50,520 we engage with their office, they set up meetings with 483 00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,360 various constituents, Voices for children in Connecticut, And I 484 00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,880 could keep going, but but you can see with baby bonds as an 485 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:03,280 example, you need all three to ultimately achieve change. 486 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,440 And then even baby bonds is not enough if you don't have that 487 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,040 conception of a human rights economy by which you 488 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,760 contextualize baby bonds. So it's knowledge for action. 489 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:16,400 Knowledge for action, Knowledge tracing. 490 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,840 You did it again. You took my long winded answer 491 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,680 and you summarized it in a way that was right to the point. 492 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,600 The world would be The upshot. I appreciate that. 493 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,440 I love it. Knowledge for action, not 494 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,520 knowledge just for the sake of knowing some stuff. 495 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,920 And one thing about me, I'm about that action, OK? 496 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,800 So Connecticut's actually doing these baby bonds like did did. 497 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,240 Are there actually Connecticut babies with bonds? 498 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,280 What and what? How many? 499 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:47,240 What's happening? In this story of Connecticut 500 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:53,960 passing baby bonds is so rich it is rich from they had a 501 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,080 transition of state treasurer's from Treasurer Wooden who 502 00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:03,160 originally proposed the idea and it was passed to Treasurer 503 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,120 Russell being able to implement it. 504 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,200 So you have a scenario of from the standpoint of a politician, 505 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:16,200 you're ceding an account that comes to fruition not until at 506 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,960 least 18 years long after you have left office. 507 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,200 Again, that concept of investment is clearly there. 508 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,920 So you had some selfless individuals leading this effort 509 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:31,520 and initiative in that state. And it's probably not 510 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,040 coincidental that they grew up in neighborhoods that were not 511 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,360 high wealth. They grew up in communities 512 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,680 where they they had experiential learning and have had success in 513 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:47,200 their life and can understand the value of what capital can do 514 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,640 for somebody's life. So it's such an eloquent, 515 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,400 eloquent story. And I've had the good fortune of 516 00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,520 being able to engage them and thinking about the concept and 517 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,680 being able to explain the concept with them and being able 518 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,840 to engage their population to build up support because they 519 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,240 needed support not only to pass the bill, but it once it was 520 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,320 passed, now it had to go into implementation and it was not a 521 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:18,880 unified consensus. You know, I'm not calling out 522 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,840 any particular politicians here towards implementing it. 523 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,600 So they needed to build up even more power and more innovation 524 00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:31,080 in order to get it implemented. So just really quick reporting 525 00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:34,840 back on this. They have started this program 526 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,320 two years ago when they seeded the first child with a baby 527 00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,560 bonds. To date, there are 33,000 528 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,880 eligible children in the state of Connecticut that when they 529 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,480 turn 18, have the ability to reap the rewards of a baby bond. 530 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,920 That's amazing. Yeah, that is. 531 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:59,560 So if I want to go to college at 18, I haven't act like a real 532 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,000 asset for me to tap into to make that possible. 533 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:07,200 Yes, and you know let's you know I'll add context also, it's the 534 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,800 state, not the federal government. 535 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:14,560 So the accounts are seated at a level of about $3200 per child, 536 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,719 and it's ceded to all Medicaid recipients. 537 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,880 So all baby, right? They call it their Huskies 538 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:26,320 program in, in, in Connecticut. And their Huskies program cuts 539 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,000 across race, cuts across geography. 540 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,440 So we think about rural poverty. You have a great deal of 541 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,159 children that are born without resources and now they get 542 00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:41,360 access to some capital. Now the treasurer will manage 543 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:45,480 that $3200, similar to how they manage their pension fund. 544 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:50,000 And the projection is that when they become eighteen that that 545 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:56,320 account will be valued at between say 12,000 to about 18 546 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:01,280 to $20,000. That becomes some useful, useful 547 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:05,360 capital to put down on a home, to finance some of your 548 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,680 education, if not all, to be able to take it and start a 549 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,960 business, a small business, to be entrepreneurial. 550 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,640 So it's a start the full program at the federal level, which has 551 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:21,080 a great deal more capacity. And big shout out to Ayanna 552 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,160 Presley and Cory Booker for translating baby bonds into 553 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,360 legislation. And every year comes up and it 554 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,360 gets a good deal of support. Obviously not enough to put it 555 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:36,800 across across the edge, but we know we get ready for that over 556 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,480 10 when that moment comes when we can legislate it. 557 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:45,080 But their proposal would offer enough resources so that the 558 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:49,760 accounts for the most low income, low wealth children 559 00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,360 would be upwards to about 40 thousand. 45,000 as a down 560 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,320 payment. Wow, I'm pretty sure that number 561 00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,400 is accurate. Now you said we don't have the 562 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,040 support now, but 15 years ago when you introduced this 563 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,760 concept, you caught a lot of heat for it. 564 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:07,960 But now in 2025, Connecticut then did it look where it is 565 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,360 now. So I have full faith that just 566 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,560 like that happened and you know, you got some some Flack for 15 567 00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,920 years ago, maybe hopefully only five years from now we're able 568 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,000 to get it at the federal level. Big fist bump. 569 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,920 We, we, we got to be ready. That over 10 moment occurs in 570 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,240 ways that we can and cannot predict. 571 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,360 We can be certain that there's a great deal of turmoil, 572 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,960 volatility that is not only happening in society, but it's 573 00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,880 going to happen in society. And is at those over 10 moments, 574 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,120 it is at those political junctures that we have a great 575 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,560 deal if we're ready, if we built up the power to do something 576 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:52,240 new, innovative and valuable and actually achieve that paradigm 577 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:56,800 change so that we can in an authentic way, center people in 578 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,280 the environments in which we live. 579 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:01,200 That's amazing. I want to ask, from the place 580 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:06,400 that you sit, have you seen any empirical data to support the 581 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,160 success of these initiatives? I have this saying, and God, we 582 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,240 trust everybody else. Bring facts. 583 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,200 Bring some data. And so can you speak to those 584 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,400 those things? On the one hand, there's a 18 585 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:26,040 year gestation before the accounts actually get sent out. 586 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:32,960 On the other hand, the evidence from baby bonds is history when 587 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:38,760 we provided AGI Bill to at the time 8 out of 10 men born in the 588 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,640 1920s returning from World War 2, getting access to some 589 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,840 capital to purchase a home, for example, or getting access to 590 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:54,520 some capital to go to school and not graduate with debt that we 591 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:59,000 built a middle class grounded in assets so we can learn from that 592 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:00,920 lessons. To me, that's some of the most 593 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,480 compelling evidence that if we want to redress wealth 594 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:10,080 inequality, then we need to see capital and this time do it in a 595 00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:15,440 way that does not exclude people based on their race or gender. 596 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,600 Amen. Well, Derek, thank you so much 597 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:21,280 for your time. Thank you for sharing some of 598 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,960 your brilliance with us. Thank you for for the work that 599 00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,520 you are doing to give some of this knowledge so that we can 600 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,560 have some positive action. I know the Health and Human 601 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,200 Services team so appreciates it, but so do we. 602 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,920 I mean, so kind. There's, there's a lot in this 603 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,600 world that is depressing. That is, you know, we wake up 604 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:46,000 every day and we see some of the global strife and conflict. 605 00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:51,360 We see hunger, we see pain. What a joy and privilege I have. 606 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:56,760 And others have to have a purpose to have a job that 607 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,800 facilitates us to try to make make a difference, to do 608 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,920 something different. So, you know, I'll, I'll make 609 00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:08,800 this last point, that pessimism, feeling paralyzed, that's only 610 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,480 going to maintain the status quo or make it worse. 611 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:15,880 It's a privilege and honor and a blessing to be able to work 612 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,720 towards that purpose, however bleak things may seem at this 613 00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:21,880 time. And as we've talked about Jamie, 614 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:24,880 we never know when that Overton is changing. 615 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,400 And we certainly need to be ready so that we can get 616 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,000 something different. That's awesome. 617 00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:33,480 Well, Doctor Hamilton, we want to thank you so much for this 618 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,520 hour. We want to exercise a slightly 619 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,960 different part of your brain, and so we've been ending each 620 00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,760 episode with just a goofy lightning round. 621 00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,160 Now you know my long winded answers are going to make this 622 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:49,480 challenging. I'm up first, so it's the top of 623 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,400 the morning. You're heading in to wherever 624 00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:54,120 you're going for the day. What do you have in your hand? 625 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,480 Coffee or tea? Sadly my phone but coffee before 626 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:01,040 I get on there. Ditto. 627 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,560 Over the course of your teaching career, what's your favorite 628 00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:08,560 class that you've ever taught? Racial economic disparity. 629 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,560 Oh no, sorry. I took a class down to Trinidad 630 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,480 and Tobago for two weeks. We had a whole course, but it 631 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,640 was looking at racial and ethnic inequality and the global 632 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:23,680 diaspora and it included a field study to Trinidad and Tobago. 633 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,560 Interesting, what's the 1st place you take people to when 634 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:33,080 they come visit Brooklyn? Oh, we going to a rooftop and 635 00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,080 we're going to have some cocktails on the rooftop. 636 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:37,880 I can give you the specific place, but I'll look 637 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,840 pretentious. What tabs do you have open on 638 00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,240 your computer right now? Oh Lord, everything. 639 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,640 There's my calendar, there's the new school website, there's our 640 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,320 website. It is around 4th of July, so 641 00:40:56,320 --> 00:40:58,360 there's some, this is embarrassing. 642 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,480 Some shopping there as well. I'm not going to tell you the 643 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,520 place. You've got to make that dial A 644 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:05,040 hollow. Absolutely. 645 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,320 If you were to pin your memoir today, what would you name it? 646 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,240 Oh man, a North Star vision for justice. 647 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,400 Y'all heard it first. And so now listen, I know Tracy 648 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:26,120 is the queen of the bumper sticker slogans, but if we 649 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:30,240 needed a bumper sticker slogan for the economy, we need what's 650 00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:33,160 your sort of, what's your three word rally ride? 651 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,960 Centering people in the environments in which we live. 652 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:38,240 OK, it wasn't 3 words, but close enough. 653 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:39,880 That's OK, I'll give you the extra word. 654 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,120 All right. If you could come back as an 655 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,560 animal, what animal would you be? 656 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:52,720 Oh man, what would I be? I want to fly you. 657 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,960 Unfortunately we're we're we would be endangered, but I'd be 658 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,720 an eagle. OK. 659 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,720 Although that's predator, maybe I don't want to be an eagle. 660 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,280 What's your song of the summer for 2025? 661 00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,400 Again, this is embarrassing. I'm old, but I still listen to 662 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,120 Tick Tock. So when listening to Tick Tock 663 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,320 right now, the song that comes up a lot is the woman from Fleet 664 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,680 Wood Mac, because I didn't listen to it when I was younger, 665 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,280 but now it's in my feed. It's when she's talking to her. 666 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,800 Silver Springs, that's the name. Of it, that's Stevie Nicks. 667 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,560 Yep. Stevie Nicks, Silver Springs? 668 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:33,240 No, but I don't think anybody would predict that'll get that. 669 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,280 But that's what algorithms do. They put something in your head 670 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:38,240 and make you listen to it over and over again. 671 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:45,120 Professor Hamilton to wrap us up, Who's a path breaker that 672 00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,840 you've come across in your life? Who's someone who cut a new way 673 00:42:47,840 --> 00:42:51,000 forward? You know, I, I, it is some, you 674 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:57,040 know, I think about my mother, of course, who lost her life 675 00:42:57,360 --> 00:42:59,560 and, and I think about sacrifice. 676 00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:03,920 If I think about legacy, if I think about motivation. 677 00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,280 And as we talk about this, I'm glad it's impromptu and on the 678 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,240 spot because the word that comes to mind, she was a humanist. 679 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,480 You know, she cared about people, she fun loving, cared 680 00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,280 about people, cared about her children. 681 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,280 So she she's the one you. Mean. 682 00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,640 What was your mom's name? Norma Jane Hampton Elton John 683 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,640 wrote a song about her. Goodbye, Norma Jane. 684 00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,440 Because she was that girl. I love that. 685 00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:36,640 Well, Professor Hamilton, I'm sure you've got all sorts of 686 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,080 things to get back to, the books you got to read, the students 687 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,800 you got to teach, the change you got to make. 688 00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,200 Thank you for taking a little break from everything you're 689 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:44,800 doing to spend some time with Tracy and me. 690 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,600 We really appreciate it. Y'all made my day. 691 00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:49,640 I love this. This was a great experience for 692 00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:51,280 me, I thank you. Awesome. 693 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:57,960 Thank you, Doctor. Derek Hamilton is the Henry 694 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:01,880 Cohen Professor of Economics and Urban Policy at The New School 695 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,160 and the founding director of the Institute on Race, Power and 696 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,280 Political Economy, also at the New School. 697 00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,920 Path Breakers is produced by the Kresge Foundation, which was 698 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,680 founded in 1924 with a mission to promote human progress. 699 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,440 Today, Kresge works to expand equity and opportunity in 700 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,040 America's cities. Read the stories of all of this 701 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:27,160 season's Path Breakers and learn about our grant making and 702 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:30,640 social investing work in Detroit, Memphis, New Orleans, 703 00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,240 Fresno, and cities across the US at kresge.org. 704 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,320 To hear more stories from the Path Breakers, be sure to 705 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,480 subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. 706 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:44,440 Our producers are Juliet Hindley and Zach Rosen. 707 00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:46,560 Managing editor is Krista Yankee. 708 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,320 Our show art is by Rochelle Baker and Creative direction by 709 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,040 Alejandro Herrera. Special thank you to my 710 00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,520 colleagues on the Human Services program for lifting up Doctor 711 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,280 Hamilton and speaking his name as a truly phenomenal path 712 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,880 breaker. Next week we'll look a little 713 00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,120 different. We'll be releasing our final 714 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:10,920 episode of the season Friday, September 12th with a new guest 715 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:13,040 making a very special announcement. 716 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:15,200 You won't want to miss it. Join us then.