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Welcome to this Watch LIVE. 
Hi, I'm Lydia Winters. 

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And I'm Bui. 
Today we're talking about 

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movement decoration. 
That is not what I thought when 

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you said I'm going to do all the
research for this episode. 

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I I had no idea you were talking
about movement decoration. 

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Yes, but it's because of the 
second word decorations. 

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No, I mean, OK, so I've been 
thinking about this recently. 

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I visited Nomos, I visited IWC, 
seeing all these processes and 

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how they're making everything. 
And The thing is, so with the, 

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with so much of the watch, 
there's like a lot of function 

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and then there's also a lot of 
design involved. 

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When you get to the movement, 
it's very functional. 

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But the fact that it's being 
designed and decorated to be 

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really beautiful, I got really 
invested in finding out the 

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history of that. 
Because I think to me, a lot of 

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times in watches, there's this 
like no function over 

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everything. 
But obviously that's not true 

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because all of these movements 
are being beautifully decorated.

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So not only do they work, but 
many of them not, not all, but I

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mean, they actually look 
beautiful, have a history of, 

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you know, different processes to
make it look more incredible. 

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And I, yeah, I've been very 
excited about it. 

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That's cool. 
I, you know, we've talked a 

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little bit about before because 
I think we've gotten questions 

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through Instagram about like 
should case backs be open? 

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And you know, at what price 
point should case backs be open?

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And I'm, I'm a fan of most case 
backs being open because at any 

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different price point, like the 
person buying it can enjoy what 

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they're looking at on the 
movement because not all 

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movements are decorated, but 
most have something done to them

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that is decoration, even if it's
just a choice of the plating 

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color for the rotor for an 
automatic watch, right? 

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And the rest might be completely
machine finished. 

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But even in machine finishing, 
you have to choose what that 

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machine is doing, right? 
So yeah, yeah, yeah. 

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I'm excited about. 
This, yes, but in this case 

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we're going for you. 
In this case, we're going for 

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more like highly decorated 
movements. 

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OK, we're not talking. 
Just a cost of like, you know, I

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kind of no, no, no. 
I was just trying to be 

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inclusive, yes. 
That's all. 

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But the cool thing about 
decorated watch movements is 

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like they're not just about 
telling time. 

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They're celebrating the 
artistry, the precision, and the

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history. 
So the history on decorating 

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watch movements, it dates back 
to the 16th century in Europe, 

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particularly in Nuremberg, 
Germany. 

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Early watchmakers like Peter 
Henline, he began crafting small

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ornamental timepieces worn as 
pendants. 

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So these were kind of like the 
precursor. 

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To water watch. 
Yeah, so he actually is credited

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a lot of times for inventing the
portable watch in the early 16th

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century. 
They were these little 

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timepieces called Nuremberg eggs
because they were shaped Oval, 

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because. 
It didn't have that flat shape 

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yet. 
Exactly. 

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And so they were made from 
materials like iron or steel and

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they were all and then they were
engraved and very ornamental. 

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What? 
Kind of accuracy. 

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Were they hidden? 
This is my favorite part 

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actually. 
It was like I I like conjured 

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that question because I was like
how do I get to say this? 

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The accuracy was absolutely 
incredible. 

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Wait, what? 
Because it was only an hour 

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hand. 
I have only since I found this 

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out, I've only been thinking 
about how I wish all my watches 

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only had an hour hand and that 
that's how I lived my life. 

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You know, they were the I can 
see was quite limited, we might 

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say. 
You did recently leave your job 

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of 13 years. 
So I can just have an hour hand.

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Technically just have an hour 
hand right now. 

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Do you even need a watch right 
now? 

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No, probably not. 
You only meet people on the 

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hour, That's fine. 
Only meet people on the hour. 

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So then if you want, if you 
needed to synchronize, you're 

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just like hey. 
But if someone's like, I'm 

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running 5 minutes late, you're 
like, I have no idea. 

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I don't. 
Know what that means at all? 

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Yeah. 
Well, OK, so this is where I 

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started going on I. 
Guess they say that to you on 

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their phone and then you'll 
probably be able to see the time

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on the phone. 
True. 

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Never mind. 
They never mind. 

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That's true. 
I'm like, oh, I get. 

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I want to do an episode on retro
tech and and retro modern tech 

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because there's like this big 
push for the modern phones, 

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phones built today but with less
features and like we got to get 

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one for watch enthusiasts that 
doesn't tell the time. 

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Ohh, that's true. 
So you have to you could have a 

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like you could mod it basically 
or like no time here someone 

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like, oh, can you give me the 
times like only from my? 

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Only from my watch my not from 
my phone. 

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OK. 
So. 

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But watches with only our hand 
were quite common in early 

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watchmaking. 
I didn't really realize that, 

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especially during the 16th and 
17th century, and so it wasn't 

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until the late 17th century that
the minute hand was introduced. 

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So maybe. 1691. 
If when I think about the 1600s,

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as I often do. 
I never do. 

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I'm like, I don't even know. 
It's not. 196016. 

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Hundreds, like to me at that 
time, most people didn't 

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probably it wasn't it Like you 
wouldn't just say like, oh, it's

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like 9:00 like the time of day 
to any level of precision 

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probably didn't factor into most
people's lives. 

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Yeah, but you could say it's 
9:00 because it's an hour 

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marker. 
Yeah. 

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But probably very. 
Rich people. 

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Have those so like just the 
average person had no clock or 

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watch probably, you know, no 
clock at home and maybe the in 

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the town square or, you know, 
there there there were ways to 

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tell time, but but not personal 
ways to tell time. 

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So it's unlikely that at that 
time that you would say like I'm

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gonna, I'll see you tomorrow at 
9:30 at the general store. 

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Do you think when this British 
watchmaker like created the 

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minute hand then they went to 
all the big clocks in town, then

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they just like added it on and 
people's mind were blown? 

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You can research this because I 
like want to know how the roll 

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out of a minute. 
Hand. 

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Yeah, you're like, what if 
people were like, absolutely 

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not. 
I don't know any level of 

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accuracy. 
And people know what I'm doing 

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all the time. 
We're digressing. 

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We never. 
Started to measure time. 

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There'd be no meetings. 
OK. 

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Like if we didn't start to 
measure time accurately. 

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Yeah, but there would be no 
meetings of people. 

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And like, remember, that's part 
of the the romantic thing about 

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time is we're saying like we 
together. 

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Yeah, so. 
Most people want to meet other 

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people. 
Yeah, I forget that sometimes. 

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OK, anyway, so you have these 
Nuremberg eggs, They're quite 

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bulky. 
They're worn as pendants, 

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they're attached to clothing. 
So even though they're saying 

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smaller, it's like smaller for 
the time, not like a lot of the.

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Tiny things. 
They're made of heavy material. 

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Yes, but they were made to be 
very much a novelty, a lot of 

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prestige and precision. 
I love so much that they had 

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only the the our hand. 
I want that. 

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You know there are watches made 
today with only our hands. 

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I actually didn't know that, and
now I will look them up and I 

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will get one for this period of 
my life. 

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OK, OK. 
Yeah, yeah, I'm kind. 

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Of in for it. 
Now you have to. 

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Now you have to look into that. 
If our good friend of the 

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podcast Vern Watch Studies can 
have a watch that goes 

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backwards. 
Most of them do a 24 hour so 

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it's like 1 rotation is a day. 
I like that. 

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Yeah, that sounds awesome. 
I shouldn't say most of them, 

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most of the ones that I know of.
Also I think that more watches 

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should be 24 hours. 
Yeah, yeah. 

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It makes sense because it would 
be awesome, but it would also be

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really hard to tell the time. 
It would be the same as well, 

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no? 
It would be hard to fit into 

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your collection. 
Yes, of other watches that are 

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12 hour base dials. 
Very true. 

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OK, so hand decorated movement. 
Sorry, we're getting off track 

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here. 
No, but some of the reasons they

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exists, craftsmanship, 
obviously. 

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So it's like meticulously 
finished by skilled watchmakers,

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like using a lot of traditional 
techniques. 

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And so when you think of like 
the finishing techniques, you 

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have engraving, you have the 
Cult de Geneve, Prolage, Enlage.

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I got to try some of these 
things when I was an IWC 

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watchmaker for it for two hours.
Oh did did you actually do 

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decoration during that? 
Well, I got no, not during the 

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class. 
Actually I did the prolage at 

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the factory. 
That's cool. 

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It seemed easy, which means it's
not no, all I was doing was just

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prologing a movement without any
like consistency. 

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Or it was just like, oh, this is
how it feels to do it. 

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OK, OK. 
So obviously pretty bad, but 

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anyway, so these techniques are 
are really cool, like even just 

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the finishing. 
So you have the quilt de geneve.

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This is the decorative technique
involving parallel. 

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They're like wave like lines. 
They're visible usually on the 

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surfaces of the bridges and the 
bars. 

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Plus Hootay has their own called
ribbing. 

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Obviously we were out at no. 
Most so. 

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We like to see that and it's 
it's a striped finish, so it's 

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usually diagonally across. 
So it is very similar. 

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To the color. 
Yes. 

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Or if he was just looking at it.
So just so everyone knows, he's 

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not Speaking of it, but he is. 
He has taken off his watch and 

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he is looking at it and. 
Look at those stripes. 

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Yeah, the stripes are really 
cool. 

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They were actually originally 
designed for a function. 

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Okay, that is no longer 
necessary. 

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What do you think that is? 
A function? 

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Yeah, the striping. 
Yeah, it was. 

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It was functional. 
It was useful, I should say. 

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For positioning maybe? 
No, it was for dust collecting. 

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00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,640
Wait, what? 
Well, because I mean, nowadays 

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you're in these manufacturers 
that have really like created 

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dust free environments as much 
as possible. 

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So that's not what they were 
doing. 

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But in in the past, they were 
actually this, you know, the 

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uneven surfaces were to kind of 
catch the dust bunnies. 

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Really. 
No one online said dust bunnies,

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but I would like. 
Oh, you added bunnies? 

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I wanted to add bunnies. 
That's really interesting. 

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00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:10,160
So then you have like stippling,
which is spotting. 

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This is creating a texture of 
overlapping small circles. 

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It's very expensive to perform. 
I think most of these are. 

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00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,920
Yes. 
And glage is a beveling of the 

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edges of the movement components
to create a smooth, polished 

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finish. 
Again, these are all things that

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are just to make it look more 
beautiful. 

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Yeah. 
And then Prolage, which I am 

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highly trained. 
I like, you know, help. 

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The movement How many times did 
you? 

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Like 30, cool, highly trained. 
This is a technique, and it's 

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like these small dots are 
applied to the surface and 

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they're often used on the 
visible parts of the movement. 

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Again, in these descriptions, 
obviously it's a little hard 

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when we're just talking through 
them, but I think the main thing

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is that the watchmakers who are 
trained to do these, they're 

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doing it so precisely. 
They're making sure that like, 

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each piece of the movement is 
really, really beautiful. 

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Yeah. 
So I think that's pretty cool. 

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But just the, you know, like the
what? 

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But then also there's just 
engraving. 

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And then a lot of this can be 
done either by hand or machine. 

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And especially when it's by 
hand, it requires a very steady 

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hand and then a deep. 
Knowledge. 

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00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:24,080
Of drawing techniques, it's 
like. 

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When you were younger, you chose
either surgeon or engraver like 

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because you you. 
You choose. 

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Not me personally. 
I'm saying. 

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00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,320
The people who are doing these 
engravings with these super 

230
00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:43,040
steady hands, their option was 
well, there's probably more. 

231
00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:46,440
Options yes, but it is but it is
really amazing to think about 

232
00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,800
and this got me thinking about 
my Chopard skeleton because it 

233
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,760
has this beautiful hand 
engraving and the way that 

234
00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,600
typically works like all over 
the movement and you get to see 

235
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:01,600
it because skeleton we're we'll 
do history of skeleton watches 

236
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:03,560
later. 
I started going on that path but

237
00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:05,080
we will not. 
This is like a 2. 

238
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,400
Hour. 
That should be a Halloween 

239
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,400
episode. 
Oh no, but that would be. 

240
00:13:08,560 --> 00:13:14,480
Oh, that would be now we're 
gonna have a late skeletonized 

241
00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:16,920
Halloween episode. 
That's an awesome. 

242
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:24,400
Idea later in November. 
OK, anyway, but so when they're 

243
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:28,520
hand engraving, the engraver 
usually sketches the designs on 

244
00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,480
paper and then they sometimes do
it directly on the metal and 

245
00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:37,160
then they're using tools like in
like gravers, these tiny chisels

246
00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,040
to meticulously carve the design
into the metal. 

247
00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:45,040
So that's something where, yes, 
it happens for the dial, like 

248
00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:49,560
the Noahita, which we love. 
Like Connor San is hand 

249
00:13:49,560 --> 00:13:52,840
engraving everything. 
He's, you know, like when you 

250
00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:56,520
see numbers on the dial, It's 
him, hand engraved. 

251
00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:57,840
Yeah. 
One person did that. 

252
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:02,160
It's like Kudoke movements. 
They, they, they have a lot of 

253
00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,680
engraving on the movements, 
depending on which movement it 

254
00:14:04,680 --> 00:14:07,600
is. 
And I think Steven Kudoke does 

255
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:10,880
all of the engraving still. 
Maybe not still, but yeah. 

256
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,840
But really cool to think about 
that like by hand, so on the 

257
00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:16,440
movement, but also people are 
doing it on the dials. 

258
00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:19,840
And then you have this like line
engraving, you have stippling, 

259
00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:24,160
you have cross hatching. 
And it's just really interesting

260
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:27,560
to think about how much work is 
put into something that 

261
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:32,440
sometimes you don't see. 
Yeah, because a lot of very well

262
00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,560
decorated movements are behind 
closed case backs and you will 

263
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,680
never see them. 
No, and this is where I was 

264
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:45,440
like, I'm going to ask AI why 
would you finish a movement and 

265
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,880
a watch that isn't visible? 
And this is a great answer. 

266
00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,120
So I'm just reading it directly 
word for word. 

267
00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:54,280
It's about dedication to the 
craft, my friend. 

268
00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:01,400
Are you friends with this AI? 
No, Finishing a movement, even 

269
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,040
when it's hidden, speaks volumes
about a watchmaker's pride in 

270
00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:07,800
their work. 
It's an unspoken promise of 

271
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:11,240
quality and excellence. 
It's also a nod to those in the 

272
00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:14,760
know, other watchmakers and 
collectors who appreciate such 

273
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,600
artistry. 
And, of course, it's about 

274
00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,720
maintaining the tradition and 
heritage of fine watchmaking. 

275
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,560
They don't cut corners, even if 
you never see it. 

276
00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,160
Pretty epic, right? 
I don't know. 

277
00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,960
Why would you add the pretty 
epic, right? 

278
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:29,800
No, I did not. 
Why are you so casual? 

279
00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,040
That's very chatty. 
Yeah, I guess I I did write 

280
00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:35,680
like, why wouldn't you finish a 
move? 

281
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,560
Why would you finish a move and 
that isn't? 

282
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,480
Physical. 
You're not going to even look at

283
00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,320
it, OK. 
But I really I did like that. 

284
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,640
Actually is a sensical. 
Answer it's a very good answer 

285
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:50,240
and it is also true like it and 
I mean even looking on the 

286
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,560
normal website, they they also 
said that about how it's really 

287
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,920
about letting you know know that
the craftsmanship is up to the 

288
00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,640
highest standard and I really 
like that I think that's super 

289
00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:02,480
cool. 
It's kind of what you were 

290
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:03,880
talking about with the open case
back. 

291
00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:07,480
So there we're still, there's 
still choices and decisions made

292
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,280
by brands to make it look. 
Yeah. 

293
00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,880
To, you know, the way they want 
it to look, so when you see it. 

294
00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:18,680
So but that that's interesting 
because you are someone who has 

295
00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:24,040
always said that you won't buy 
white gold because you can't see

296
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:29,320
that it's gold because it looks 
the same as steel basic Exactly.

297
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,800
It does look slightly different,
but to if you just glance at it,

298
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:35,800
it could be steel. 
Yeah. 

299
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:40,320
So a decorated movement that's 
behind a closed case bag. 

300
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:44,520
I don't want it, No no no. 
Just just cut some corners on 

301
00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,160
the inside. 
Well, you're Royal Oak is a 

302
00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:52,080
watch with a closed case bag and
I'm guessing it has a beautiful,

303
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,520
a beautiful movement. 
Yeah, but. 

304
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,880
Still decorated, Yeah. 
No, I mean, look, I think then 

305
00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:05,079
you should show it. 
But then I was thinking about 

306
00:17:05,079 --> 00:17:08,040
like, why do people want 
decorated movements in the 1st 

307
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,079
place? 
So obviously you have this 

308
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,480
aesthetic appeal, like intricate
designs, it's this level of 

309
00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:20,160
craftsmanship, but then you also
have like it is it makes it more

310
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,400
exclusive. 
It's high end luxury watches. 

311
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:28,760
It can be that you know, a 
symbol of like how well the 

312
00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,160
watch was made. 
Then you have the craftsmanship,

313
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,600
which I think is the really cool
part, the time and skill used to

314
00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,800
actually decorate the movement 
like using the watchmakers 

315
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:44,240
expertise and and dedication. 
And then you have the value, 

316
00:17:44,240 --> 00:17:48,040
which is that a well decorated 
movement can just increase the 

317
00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,400
value. 
But I will say you also paid for

318
00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:56,640
that because see exclusivity. 
Well, it but it does depend. 

319
00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,240
So we've talked a lot about at 
different price points or at 

320
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,880
lower price points, and that can
mean different things to 

321
00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:05,840
different people. 
But at lower price points, 

322
00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:10,600
brands, you know, the 
manufacturer is making choices 

323
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:14,920
on where to spend the money. 
And often you'll see the a brand

324
00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,720
will maybe spend all the money 
on the dial, right? 

325
00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:22,280
And they really put a lot of 
extra work into the dial and 

326
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,120
sometimes it's the case and 
sometimes it's something else. 

327
00:18:25,120 --> 00:18:29,120
But sometimes you know, they're 
going more for a well balanced 

328
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,440
type of thing where where you 
don't notice any particular 

329
00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:34,960
thing. 
But one thing I I have noticed a

330
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:38,160
lot, and I'm looking at it again
because you were talking about 

331
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,080
movements. 
I happened to be wearing my 

332
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:44,840
limited edition Tankante. 
The high fish grow and I think 

333
00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,920
this movement is beautifully 
decorated, especially when you 

334
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,600
think of the price, it's like 
under €2000.00. 

335
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:56,440
So it usually under €2000. 
The money is spent elsewhere and

336
00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,200
you can see it elsewhere and you
don't get to see it on the 

337
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,520
movement. 
But I do like on this watch and 

338
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,560
others that I've seen where 
they've like put that effort in,

339
00:19:07,440 --> 00:19:10,400
even even if it's not a Royal 
Oak. 

340
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,560
Yes, but I mean by hand 
decoration, it does require a 

341
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,000
lot of extra labor, you know, So
it is, it is the mark of luxury 

342
00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:22,920
and high quality watchmaking 
just because you've actually 

343
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,000
taken the time and effort. 
To and even even machine 

344
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,040
decoration. 
Yeah, even. 

345
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:29,520
Yeah, exactly. 
Still takes more time. 

346
00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:30,720
It takes more time. 
Yeah. 

347
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,280
And set up and machinery and 
there's cost involved in all of 

348
00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:35,800
that, yeah. 
Good times. 

349
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:37,920
So decorations. 
Decorations. 

350
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,640
I will. 
I think I'm becoming. 

351
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:44,880
I would have said prior to this 
that I like didn't care that 

352
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,240
much about the movement 
decorations or like that I 

353
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,960
didn't. 
It wasn't a factor. 

354
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,200
It wasn't a factor, but now I 
think it might be. 

355
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,120
I might pay attention a little 
more. 

356
00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,400
Like you like, whether or not a 
movement is decorated and 

357
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,040
visible to you may have an 
effect on whether or not you 

358
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,560
want that watch I. 
Don't know, that makes it sound 

359
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,560
like a lot deeper of a 
relationship to the. 

360
00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,400
I'm just saying I might think 
about it. 

361
00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:14,240
Casually kind. 
Of like a only hour. 

362
00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:18,280
Bye everyone. 
Bye.