1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,520 We are at a leadership paradox right now, which means the tech 2 00:00:04,520 --> 00:00:07,120 is ready. And in most of the cases, the 3 00:00:07,120 --> 00:00:11,560 tech is far more advanced than the leaders who are supposed to 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:15,760 adapt that tool into the organization, who are supposed 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:18,200 to bring that in and use it in a meaningful way. 6 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:21,440 But if you were to look at how many of those companies consider 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,520 themselves to be mature in AI deployment, it's 1%. 8 00:00:26,240 --> 00:00:31,000 So the biggest barrier is not the employees or technology for 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,480 me, it's leadership alignment and vision and making sure that 10 00:00:34,480 --> 00:00:38,000 those leaders were supposed to enable this technology and make 11 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:41,040 those decisions are really comfortable using that. 12 00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:44,600 Hi there. Are you a professional or 13 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,120 business owner teaching investors for sharing big ideas? 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:52,240 What your presentations just are not keeping up with your vision? 15 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,600 That's exactly why I use Camera App, our proud partners. 16 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:01,880 Gamma is an AI powered platform that helps you build beautiful 17 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,760 decks, documents and web pages in just minutes. 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,000 No complicated formatting, no design headaches, just clean, 19 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,320 modern presentations that communicate your ideas clearly 20 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,880 and professionally. If you want to present like a 21 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,240 pro, Sign up today using the tool stack link in the 22 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,720 description below and start creating smarter with Gamma App. 23 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,040 Real life ladies and gentlemen, you once again welcome to the 24 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:50,040 Kingdom's podcast and Diary of a CFO. 25 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:57,080 And today I've got will be a very important guest fighting 26 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:01,240 out of Dubai, United Arab Emirates. 27 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:08,000 Make welcome David Nazer, me and how are you, David? 28 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:12,320 Thank you so much, Adam. Well, I'm, I'm well and I am 29 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:15,160 super stoked has this conversation with you today. 30 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,240 Oh wow, of course myself, I'm super stoked as well. 31 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:23,080 OK, so we have so many connecting dots. 32 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:26,360 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another powerful episode of the 33 00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:28,280 Kingdom's podcast in Diary of a CFO. 34 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:33,480 Today's conversation is 1 for leaders, founders, executives 35 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,200 and ambitious professionals navigating pressure, transition 36 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,240 and high performance environment. 37 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:44,760 Our guest is globally recognized as one of the foremost voices in 38 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:46,800 executive leadership and transformation. 39 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,360 He has coached senior leaders across industries, cultures, and 40 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,680 continents, helping them navigate some of the most 41 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,640 critical transitions of their careers with clarity, 42 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,440 resilience, and strategic precision. 43 00:03:00,920 --> 00:03:06,160 Ranked by CEO today as the world's #1 Executive Coach, he 44 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,280 is also the author of the acclaimed book Mastering 45 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:12,480 Executive Transitions, A groundbreaking framework 46 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,280 exploring why even brilliant leaders struggle after 47 00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:20,560 promotions, role changes, and increased visibility. 48 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,400 This conversation goes far beyond traditional leadership 49 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,880 theory. We are unpacking the psychology 50 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:30,880 of pressure, the emotional cost of leadership, organizational 51 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:36,160 politics, identity shifts, and what it truly takes to try at 52 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:38,280 the highest levels of leaders and influence. 53 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:43,520 Whether you are a CEOCFO entrepreneur, emerging leader, 54 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,600 or someone preparing for your next weekly this episode or to 55 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,760 learn the way you think about leadership, performance and 56 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:57,440 legacy, please join me in welcoming to the podcast Naveed 57 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,040 Nazanir. Wow. 58 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,800 Thank you so much, Adamola. Yeah, this is a warm and very 59 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,040 lengthy introduction. I was not expecting that, but I 60 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:09,360 do appreciate it. You're you're welcome. 61 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,240 You're welcome. Definitely your career has been, 62 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:14,440 has been a globe fool. It's been a handful. 63 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,079 So definitely you deserve that recognition. 64 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:21,000 And Speaking of recognition, you you've actually been ranked as 65 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:26,240 the number one executive coach by CEO today in the world. 66 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,040 What does that recognition mean to you personally? 67 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:31,800 Yeah. Look, I mean, I want to be 68 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:36,880 perfectly honest with you and your listeners here in that I 69 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,840 would love to use the example of my time in HR. 70 00:04:39,840 --> 00:04:44,440 I spent 20 years working for some of the world's most admired 71 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:46,520 companies in five different countries. 72 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:53,760 And I, on the day I announced my retirement from active duty as a 73 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,440 corporate HR executive, I received my very first award as 74 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,960 an HR leader. And it was a surprise to me 75 00:04:59,960 --> 00:05:03,000 because, you know, all these years I had done all this, you 76 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:04,960 know, quite, quite meaningful work. 77 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,600 And Despite that, it took 20 years for me to, you know, 78 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,520 receive my first award. And it was a special 1. 79 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:17,360 I actually got it back in the UK in the year 22 because it was a 80 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:22,680 peer Recognition Award, meaning I had a lot of HRDS and CHROS 81 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,040 who put in a nomination form on my behalf and you know, talked 82 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,320 about the, the value that they saw that my work had created. 83 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:33,400 At the time I was working for Vodafone, which is one of the 84 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,560 largest international telecommunication companies in 85 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:38,640 the world. In South Africa where you're 86 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,080 based that called Vodacom, it's the same organization. 87 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:47,520 So that goes to say that, you know, when I started my coaching 88 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:53,120 practice exactly 12 years ago, I did not have a single award up 89 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,280 until four years ago. Probably all these awards are 90 00:05:56,280 --> 00:05:59,040 nice and I've collected 10 awards just in the last four 91 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,360 years. These awards are nice and A and 92 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,000 a nice way to recognize the work that you do. 93 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,400 But for me, the real recognition comes from the executives that I 94 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:11,760 do the work with, and sometimes from the organizations that are 95 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,720 so happy that they signed me up to work with them. 96 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:20,000 What a journey and I think people watching us today, people 97 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:24,000 listening to us, they should take a cue from this, should 98 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,320 take some inspiration from this, right? 99 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,200 When you're in the trenches, when you're putting on the work, 100 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:32,520 know that the work will definitely pay up in in the 101 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,600 process, right? It feels like nothing is 102 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,800 changing, but when you keep going and you have a good sense 103 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:42,880 of direction, definitely hard work definitely pays up. 104 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,200 So, so I appreciate you being authentic, being bored, and of 105 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,080 course, being vulnerable as well in terms of sharing your 106 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:53,400 journey. And when you reflect on your 107 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:58,680 journey from corporate executive to being a globally recognized 108 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,360 executive coach, right? What would you say where the 109 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,720 defining moments that shaped you the most? 110 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,120 Yes. So firstly, I will share a 111 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,880 little secret with you and your audience here, which is I 112 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:16,320 actually sign up to become a coach. 113 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,760 This is in the, you know, 12 years ago, so in the year 2014 114 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,040 with with a very different intention. 115 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:27,520 So my intention was not to go solo and set up my coaching 116 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:32,240 practice and do what I do love doing full time, but I actually 117 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:34,520 wanted to become a more effective leader. 118 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:39,200 That was my sole intent. I felt that after spending more 119 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,400 than a decade working in the human resources function, I had 120 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,840 reached what I call functional technical limits. 121 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,840 As in there wasn't really much more left that I could learn to 122 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,040 become a more effective HR individual. 123 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:58,920 And that's why I decided that I needed to go into what I call 124 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:02,520 vertical development. So horizontal development is you 125 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:06,800 add 1 technical degree or skill next to the other one, do the 126 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:08,520 other one, and then you have ten of those. 127 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,480 And by the time you do the third one, you can't quite remember 128 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,760 what you did in the first one. But vertical development is 129 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,720 really expanding the size of the container. 130 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,720 So I felt that for the position that I had held at a time and 131 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:27,240 the level that I had reached, growth would come vertically and 132 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:30,640 not horizontally, which is why I didn't pursue an MBA or 133 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,840 something, just to have another 3 letters, something next to my 134 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:35,679 name. It was one of the best decisions 135 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:37,960 I could have made in hindsight as well. 136 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:42,080 I mean I did my three-year coach education training across 3 137 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,680 continents, but the middle part of that I actually did in Cape 138 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:48,920 Town. So I did do that Gyps at UCT, 139 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,360 and it's a lovely time that I will cherish for a long time 140 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,400 because that really reintroduce me to South Africa, to Ubuntu, 141 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,800 to all these various things that are existing in that part of the 142 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,400 world, and I'm incredibly grateful for that. 143 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,520 Wow. And they did, they did. 144 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:07,600 Of course, you know, it's, it's amazing to know that you, you 145 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,800 definitely had a good time in South Africa. 146 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,960 And of course, just on a lighter note, right, you were attacking, 147 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,080 you were attacking me when it comes to the, the three letter 148 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:19,600 designations, you know, I do have an MPA and be the chartered 149 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,000 accountant. That is ACA, right? 150 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,920 Yeah. I've got like those 3 letters. 151 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,160 Yes. And you probably needed those 152 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:37,000 for KPMG, for PwC, for all the other various companies used to 153 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,320 work for. I just felt that at a certain 154 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:45,160 point in time growth becomes more vertical than horizontal. 155 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:46,800 That was the point I was. Trying to make? 156 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,960 Yeah, exactly. I like for you, even given the 157 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:52,800 fact that you're an HR person, right? 158 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:58,080 I like for you to pick each other on what people who feel 159 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:01,720 like or who know they have actually plateaued in their 160 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,280 career should do because it comes with a lot of confusion, 161 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:08,560 right? And I think so for some people 162 00:10:08,560 --> 00:10:11,240 did not feel like, oh, they're going to like a big life crisis. 163 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,680 But it is not uncommon. So I like for you to address 164 00:10:15,680 --> 00:10:17,360 that. Put it on your HR. 165 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,120 Absolutely, yes. Look, this is the actual project 166 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:26,680 that I did at one of the companies I used to work for. 167 00:10:26,680 --> 00:10:31,280 At the time, that was a big question mark as to OK, at the 168 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,720 time, we had roughly 1600 HR professionals around the world. 169 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:40,000 How can we develop them in the most meaningful way and how can 170 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,400 we help them to accelerate their careers and grow their careers 171 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,880 in a meaningful way? And so that's when I embarked on 172 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,760 this global project. I interviewed the top most 173 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,040 senior 100 HR leaders out of the 1400. 174 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,760 I went after the first, second, and third layer of leadership 175 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,640 and what then became as a result of interviewing those, my intent 176 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:07,960 was, and you know, this is over a decade ago, so there was no 177 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:10,400 ChatGPT at the time. I could have just fed those 178 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:13,400 interview excerpts and hoping that something in interesting 179 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:15,480 comes out. It was all manually done. 180 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:22,880 But what I achieved as a result of those 100 interviews was to 181 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:29,480 be able to distill the 12 most formative experiences that would 182 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:34,520 help to grow an HR person's career, no matter what level of 183 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:38,680 leadership they are AT. And those 12 experiences, by the 184 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,000 way, the, the, the, the, the survey did not result in, oh, 185 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,080 you need to do your MBA or you need to go to this HR course, or 186 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:49,120 you need to study this HR course at this university. 187 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,560 It was really centered on experiences. 188 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,440 So the first four were in the business focus area. 189 00:11:56,440 --> 00:12:00,000 So that meant that there are 4 experiences that HR people could 190 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:06,960 do and so can do to grow their HR level of leadership by. 191 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:11,000 And these four things were business related by working in 192 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,040 and with a variety of client groups. 193 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:15,840 I myself have worked with commercial leaders, I've worked 194 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,520 with finance leaders. This is the last five years of 195 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,760 my career where I worked with the group CFO, Vodafone and her 196 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,240 entire finance organization scattered around the world. 197 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,600 The second experience in the business section is 198 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,880 international experience living and working in more than one 199 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:32,960 country. And again, I did that in five 200 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,840 different countries. The third one is to work in a 201 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:39,520 variety of different business scenarios, meaning you know, if 202 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,600 I, and that was my biggest challenge when I grew up in HRI 203 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:45,920 was in Europe, right? I came to Europe as a young 204 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,240 child and that's all the experience I had. 205 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:51,480 And you know if you have looked at the European economies at the 206 00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:55,280 at the time, it was either growing slightly, shrinking 207 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,120 slightly or staying flat. So that was the business 208 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,600 scenarios I was used to. And then I had my first 209 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,600 international assignment into the Middle East where we grew 210 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,760 the organization from 70 people to 1000 people in a 2 1/2 year 211 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,840 time period. So we had like massive growth 212 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,920 plans and I just had never experienced that before, which 213 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:17,520 meant that I had to work in a very different business 214 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,480 scenario. Then slightly growing, slightly 215 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,680 shrinking or flat kind of established. 216 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,560 And then the last experience in the business section is to move 217 00:13:27,560 --> 00:13:30,960 between head office and country type roles. 218 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:34,480 And that was also something that I really benefited from because 219 00:13:34,680 --> 00:13:37,320 once you have sat on both sides of the fence within the same 220 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,400 organization, that really gives you an appreciation for how it 221 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,920 what it takes to work with the other part of the organization 222 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,520 in a meaningful way. So those were the first four. 223 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,840 The next four were what I call the people dimensional People 224 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:54,720 focus. First one is manage and work in 225 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:59,200 large projects, meaning I actually have led and been part 226 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,480 of big projects in every single company I've worked for just 227 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,600 because it gives you a different level of exposure. 228 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:11,520 The second one is lead directly, meaning yeah, well you you need 229 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,680 people leadership skills in order to grow your people focus. 230 00:14:15,040 --> 00:14:17,840 The third one is a surprising one for many. 231 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:22,240 Leading indirectly, meaning I don't have to be the line 232 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,400 manager of all these people. If I'm interested to learn more 233 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,320 about how to lead people, I can become the leader of people 234 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,960 through different things, such as, you know, being the project 235 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:36,360 lead for a particular project and then having those people in 236 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,560 the project sense leading up to me. 237 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,560 Or as I did get my very first people leadership experience 238 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:45,720 back in Adidas when I was working for the world famous 239 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,680 Three Stripes, my line manager gave me the day-to-day 240 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,400 management of the two management trainees we had in our 241 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:53,880 department. Although in the system they 242 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,280 reported into Herb. So you can get those people 243 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:01,200 experiences also indirectly. And last but not least, this is 244 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,600 what GE did very well. I worked for GE back in the year 245 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:09,160 2005 and they were really remarkably, you know, sharp on 246 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,840 when it comes to accepting stretch assignments. 247 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:17,840 So my boss who was an HRD, she had spent two years working in 248 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,480 the quality function and going to factories and looking for 249 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,040 defects. And so those stretch assignments 250 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:28,040 really stretch you above and beyond your HR skills and really 251 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,760 gave you a different edge. And that brings us to the 4 252 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:35,560 exeriences that makes U the complete 12 key development 253 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,760 exeriences for HR leaders. The last four are categorized as 254 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,280 selfimrovement. First one is seeking and 255 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:46,200 accepting feedback from a mentor. 256 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,360 This is someone who is more senior than you was been there 257 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:52,440 done that and someone you look up to and and learn from. 258 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,600 I'm sure in the in the big four experience you had, this is 259 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,920 working with senior partners and really sometimes just being a 260 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,440 silent observer in the meetings and and in those conversations 261 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,360 just to learn from their skills. Absolutely. 262 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,880 The second one is undertaking external studies or attending 263 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,280 internal leadership development programs and the study could be 264 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,800 an MB AA study could be something that is beneficial for 265 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,920 your development as an HR individual. 266 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:24,200 The third one is surprisingly to many HR leaders, building 267 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,440 numerical and financial awareness. 268 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:31,600 Meaning as an HRD I'm not only comfortable talking about the 269 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,720 people part of the annual report, but I'm equally 270 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,800 comfortable to read the PNL and have a conversation with the CFO 271 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:42,240 on cash flow. Now he or she is not expecting 272 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:46,280 me to give them advice on how to optimize the operating free cash 273 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,400 flow. But if I don't know what cash 274 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,760 flow is and how it's derived at, I will not have the same level 275 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:57,600 of development and capability at the the table when I'm having 276 00:16:57,600 --> 00:16:59,920 those conversations with them as an ex core peer. 277 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:04,920 And last but not least, the fourth and last of the self 278 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,200 improvement dimension is all about building and developing 279 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,800 professional networks. I happen to know that you have 280 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,680 one of these networks that you have set up yourself, but there 281 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,839 are many more networks where people can take part and start 282 00:17:18,839 --> 00:17:23,119 to add value before then eventually extracting value and 283 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,160 learning also things from how other people go about doing 284 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,280 things. So these are the 12 formative 285 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:33,360 experiences that will help any HR leader to develop themselves 286 00:17:33,360 --> 00:17:36,480 no matter whether they are the first, you know, level of 287 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,200 juniority or if they are as a Chr at the highest level of 288 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,720 seniority anywhere on those levels of leadership. 289 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,880 You can look at these experiences if you have not 290 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:50,320 ticked any of these 12 experiences to have a meaningful 291 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,760 conversation with your line manager and make sure that it 292 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,240 becomes part of your individual development plan. 293 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,680 Amazing. This is super amazing, right. 294 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,000 I'll tell you something that I think would interest you, right. 295 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:10,000 I am actually scheduled to deliver a keynote, our 296 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,280 presentation for the Chartered Institute or personnel 297 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:19,040 management in my country. It feels like looking, you're 298 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:23,920 looking into my slides, right? And trying to try to try to tick 299 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:27,760 off some things. But I'll ask real quick. 300 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:33,320 The the topic I'm, I'm gonna speak on is AI people and 301 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,560 performance, right? So if you could give me one or 302 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:41,040 two golden Nuggets to add to that slide, to add to the deck, 303 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:45,040 what, what would you say regarding AI people and 304 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,200 performance? Right. 305 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,760 Yeah, wow. I mean, just the AI topic, 306 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:55,160 right? I mean, it's a big one, I will 307 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,120 tell you that. And so again, I do not consider 308 00:18:58,120 --> 00:19:04,000 myself to be a deep expert on AI, but I am, I'm a regular user 309 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,320 and I'm an early adopter. So few things I can share with 310 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,800 you as key Nuggets and you're welcome to use any of this or 311 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:16,600 completely ignore them. Is that as we speak, as we speak 312 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,280 right now? I mean today is the 11th of May 313 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:23,440 2026, which is a very special day by the way, and a special 314 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,880 week for me and coaches because this is the international 315 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,320 coaching week. So this is where all the coaches 316 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,560 celebrate the world of coaching and those non coaches and 317 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,960 leaders can take part in various other freebie sessions, webinars 318 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,320 and so on. So leadership is being rewritten 319 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:43,720 Ademolo as we speak right now. And I'm not talking about 320 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:47,360 incremental change, right? It's the biggest shift in 321 00:19:47,360 --> 00:19:49,680 leadership expectations in decades. 322 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:54,480 And if you were to look at what CE OS say themselves about this, 323 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,800 the role has changed more in the past year than in the previous 324 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,360 25 years. This is according to Economic 325 00:20:02,360 --> 00:20:05,920 Times, which is the largest magazine and and publication in 326 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:08,160 India. The second key take away I would 327 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,440 like to share with you is that there is an adoption shock 328 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:17,000 happening right now as well, which means AI is already 329 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,240 everywhere without people necessarily noticing that. 330 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,680 And so you may or may not remember those. 331 00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:26,800 Robot devices that, you know, roam around your house and do 332 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,520 the vacuum cleaning almost entirely independently, right. 333 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:34,960 So if I look at, yeah, the latest statistics, just to to 334 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:40,120 make the point there, 78% of organizations now use AI in at 335 00:20:40,120 --> 00:20:45,000 least one of the functions and 94% are exploring or deploying 336 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,920 Gen. AI in some form or shape. 337 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:51,640 And 71% already use Gen. AI regularly somewhere in the 338 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,960 business, which also means that this is not a future leadership 339 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:58,640 topic. It's a current leadership 340 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:03,600 reality and we all are encouraged to learn how to work 341 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,920 with it. The second thing, the third 342 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,080 thing I can share with you is that I find that we are at a 343 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,200 leadership paradox right now, which means the tech is ready. 344 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:18,760 And in most of the cases, the tech is far more advanced and 345 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,640 the leaders were supposed to adapt that tool into the 346 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,960 organization who are supposed to bring that in and use it in a 347 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,440 meaningful way, which means a lot of companies are looking to 348 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,600 increase their investment into AI. 349 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:37,520 But if you were to look at how many of those companies consider 350 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,640 themselves to be mature in AI deployment, it's 1%. 351 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:47,080 So the biggest barrier is not the employees or technology for 352 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,680 me, its leadership alignment and vision and making sure that 353 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:54,480 those leaders were supposed to enable this technology and make 354 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,520 those decisions are really comfortable using that. 355 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,040 And so I think it's very obvious for me that, you know, I call 356 00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:06,280 this the exposure effect that AI reveals leadership gaps as we 357 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,480 speak. Because again, this is another 358 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,640 study that was done by The Economic Times. 47 of the 359 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,120 executives that they surveyed said that their companies are 360 00:22:15,120 --> 00:22:20,960 moving too slowly on AI due to leadership misalignment. 361 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,600 Meaning the CIO or the CTO is having one idea, the CFO is 362 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,240 having a completely different idea, and the DHR isn't entirely 363 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,240 sure how to actually use that in a people sense. 364 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,600 Which also means that over 50% of those organizations that The 365 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,080 Economic Times of India surveyed report that there is no real 366 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,400 measurable value from the AI investments they have already 367 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,560 made. And you know, you have this 368 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,760 podcast also for CFOs, that is that those are the worst 369 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,800 investments, right? Where you spend the money and 370 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,720 you don't have any measurable impact as a result of that. 0 371 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,880 Retail investment. Yeah, that's a poor one. 372 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,720 The translation of all this is that leadership capability, not 373 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:09,280 technology, determines the impact of this new fantastic 374 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,720 tool called AI. And so again, if I wanted to use 375 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,960 a more modern example, I think there are boardrooms right now 376 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:22,360 in this, you know, year 2026 that are already leveraging AI. 377 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:28,000 So 86% of the corporate leaders use already some form of Gen. 378 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,160 AI either in M&A decision making or in making sure that the 379 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,080 minutes of the boardroom are captured. 380 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,880 The sentiment is measured at the minutes are, you know, gleaned 381 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:42,200 for insights and what have you. 56% of companies adopt AI 382 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:45,240 primarily to improve decision making quality. 383 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:51,080 And so leaders are not no longer decision makers alone, they are 384 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:55,880 decision architects with the support of this, you know, call 385 00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,480 it a machine or AI technology. And so that leads to an 386 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,160 interesting phenomenon, which I reside as the confidence 387 00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,840 fracture, which means that there are leaders who do trust AI, but 388 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,600 they are also leaders and, and sometimes the same leaders who 389 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,440 also are fearful of AI and what it actually can unleash in their 390 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,640 organization. Which means if you were to look 391 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:26,600 at at Investopedia, which is one of the citations I use 392 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,960 sometimes, it's almost half, nearly half of the CEOs that 393 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,600 surveyed believe that most of the role could be replaced by 394 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,880 AI. And at the same time, 77% say 395 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,520 that AI is already disrupting strategy, which means this is 396 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:48,240 the very first time leaders are simultaneously feeling empowered 397 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,040 and threatened by the exact same force. 398 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,920 And so again, AI can create performance, AI can create 399 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,600 friction. And which is why I call that, 400 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,400 you know, the reality of our productivity right now. 401 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:08,480 So AI can raise productivity by 15% in knowledge work settings, 402 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:10,640 in, in, in, in the most specific way. 403 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:16,400 And yet employees who spent significant time correcting AI 404 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,240 outputs means that they are losing again, 40% of the time 405 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,360 that they have saved is lost to reworking and rejigging and 406 00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:27,200 making sure that those things before they're presented, for 407 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,240 instance, to leadership or customers are are legit. 408 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,440 I won't mention the name of the big 4, but one of the big four 409 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,840 recently had to pay a double digit $1,000,000 fine to a 410 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,800 government because the the document that they had produced 411 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:45,040 for that particular government had a lot of AI hallucination 412 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:47,200 baked in. And that is really the worst 413 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,200 case, right? So that means that as a 414 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:55,560 leadership and as leaders, they must manage the AI illusion 415 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,080 versus the AI value gap. And this is something real and 416 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,040 something very important to work with. 417 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,200 So to kind of sum it up, I find that we are facing what I call 418 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,480 the capability divide. So we see that there is a new 419 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,480 leadership elite that is emerging. 420 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,000 If you look at the latest generations entering the 421 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,120 workforce, they are digital natives. 422 00:26:16,120 --> 00:26:19,320 They are used to all sorts of different technology solutions 423 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,120 as a very normal tool to come to the work. 424 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,720 And, and that being said, I remember the time vividly when I 425 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,440 was working for the famous Three Stripes where a particular board 426 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,960 member would refuse to use emails because they said no, no, 427 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:35,840 no. That's why I have my EA and, and 428 00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:38,400 she can type it all in. I would just use my voice 429 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,640 recorder and I will not learn this technology anymore. 430 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:47,120 So it's real and it's here. And executives with AI driven 431 00:26:47,120 --> 00:26:51,200 investment decisions show measurable productivity gains at 432 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:55,320 the firm level, which also means that younger executives are 433 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:57,880 significantly more likely to adopt AI. 434 00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:01,360 And that's what I call the capability divide, right? 435 00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:05,520 So the longer the workforce, the less likely they are to want to 436 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,360 use these tools or just learn it at the surface level. 437 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,440 And then there is the new generation entering the 438 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,320 workforce and kind of being very confident with the application 439 00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,000 of that. So if I wanted to sum it up, you 440 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,520 know, leadership is of crucial essence. 441 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,120 So for me, it's not a question whether AI will or will not 442 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:30,160 define leadership. It's it's really a question for 443 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,600 all the leaders listening to your podcast right now, which 444 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,240 is, are you defining AI right now? 445 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,480 And that's, that's kind of the last thing I can say about the 446 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,040 topic of AI. And, and just the caveat is I do 447 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,200 not consider myself to be an expert on AI. 448 00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,960 I'm just an early adopter and a regular user of it. 449 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,760 Amazing, amazing. You don't have to be an expert 450 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:56,400 to be able to what I say, read the book when it comes to what 451 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,280 what is happening, especially in leadership. 452 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,400 And of course, I appreciate how you broke down the Generation 453 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,760 Awards. It's it's something that I have 454 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,000 spoken about on the forecast a lot. 455 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,760 You know, being a millennial, I feel like I'm in the middle that 456 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:12,080 generational war because the Gen. 457 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,600 X, the jet access, right? And of course the Gen. 458 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,720 Z and of course we have the Gen. alphas coming up, right? 459 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,280 And it's amazing to see what I say the way each of these 460 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,840 generations, right, adopt technology. 461 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,240 And of course, even within generational sets, right, you 462 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,560 have like the guys that are the early ONS and the later on 463 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:38,840 within the each generation. And of course, I think that the 464 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,840 way they adopt technology is quite different. 465 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:46,520 But Speaking of leadership, right, while I was just PwC, we 466 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:51,120 have this framework for our prison professionals. 467 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,960 So it starts with whole leadership, whole leadership, 468 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,320 business acumen are global acumen. 469 00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,280 That is your ability to work with cross functional teams. 470 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:09,240 You also had the technical competence and building 471 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,000 relationships. So I used to I used to make a 472 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,480 joke with my colleagues at PwC. I'm like these guys gave you 473 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,560 they've literally given you the cheats code to succeed as a 474 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:27,360 professional, right? But you've been a HR leader, 475 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,680 right? You would have seen that a lot 476 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,720 of executive transitions break high performance even pre at 477 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,520 leaders. So what is really happening 478 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:42,080 beneath the surface? So the failure rate is 40%, 479 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,160 which is a shockingly high number. 480 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,840 Meaning if you were to be appointed CFO of KPMG or any 481 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,280 other notable organization, you have a 60 perc percent chance of 482 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,640 succeeding and a 40% chance of failing. 483 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,600 And the 40% is very well established because Hydrating 484 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,040 Struggles, which is one of the largest search rooms on the 485 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:08,960 planet has placed over 20,000 executives in several thousand 486 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,960 organizations. And when they over a 10 year 487 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,160 time period by the way, and when they went back and started to 488 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,880 look at OK, from these 20,000 that we have placed, how many 489 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,640 have actually succeeded and how many have left the role and the 490 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:27,720 company or quit or were fired sadly and they found out the 40% 491 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,280 number. And then again, there are other 492 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,320 studies by Howard Business Review, McKinsey and Company 493 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,760 Center for Creative Leadership. So they all come to a very 494 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,280 similar conclusion. So that brings us to the 495 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:40,600 question of, Oh my goodness, how can this be? 496 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:43,800 Because I can tell you Alamola, as someone who spent 497 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,400 considerable amount of time working in the HR function, 498 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:52,360 there is a lot of attention, energy and focus that goes into 499 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,720 those top level appointments. I mean, it's essentially never 500 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,680 happening that someone just gets hired to be the CXO. 501 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,000 In any organization, there is typically a search firm 502 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,920 involved. They do their own background 503 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,240 checking, their reference checking their own set of 504 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:11,000 interviews to make sure that the candidate is legitimate to be 505 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,280 put forward on the long list. Then the company screens all 506 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,520 their backgrounds and then you know, shortens the longest to a 507 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,200 typical shortlist with three to five candidates typically the 508 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,000 case. Then these three to five 509 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:26,600 candidates will get invited for interviews. 510 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320 Typically not just a single interview, but multiple 511 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,880 interviews with a number of key stakeholders. 512 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:35,800 Always part of the the game. Sometimes there is additional 513 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,320 tests that they have to perform, such as a psychometric or 514 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,320 something on top. And despite all of this, 4 out 515 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,320 of 10 don't make it. Which then brings us into your 516 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,760 brilliant question as to how can this be like what gets in the 517 00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,920 way? And in my book, I speak about 518 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,480 exponentially challenged executives that are finding 519 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:03,480 themselves in a crisis state. It's just one crisis after the 520 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,880 other, after the other, after the other that is getting in the 521 00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,240 way. I worked with a CEO not not too 522 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,680 long a time ago. He was based in Switzerland and 523 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,880 that was a division of a part of a large enterprise group. 524 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,600 And they decided to carve out that division and do an IPO. 525 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,000 So bring it into a different state and have it to be a 526 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,480 standalone company listed on the Swiss index. 527 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,040 And of course the first time it didn't work out because at that 528 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,480 time there was a shortage of CPU's globally and this was an 529 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,520 electric type business, meaning that they could not do the IPO 530 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,600 without having secured those chips for an ongoing basis. 531 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,360 The second time that they tried to attempt to do the same, the 532 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,680 war began between Russia and Ukraine. 533 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,200 And then the the investment banks told him that the the 534 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,720 market isn't really a good one to do an IPO. 535 00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:00,600 So see, these are two things that are completely outside of 536 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,360 his control. He did not, you know, cite this 537 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,640 as an issue. He did not start the war on any 538 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,080 country. But the reality is that he and 539 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,680 his business were affected by that. 540 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,120 So there are external factors. And you know, if you, I wanted 541 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,880 to use two recent examples, the tariffs that were put in place 542 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,800 by the Trump administration is can be a very hurtful thing for, 543 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,400 for businesses outside of the US. 544 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:27,040 And then the last one is the, the, the conflict that has begun 545 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,880 in the region that I am based in, in Dubai here again, 546 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,480 entirely without the doing of, of the, of the country. 547 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,800 So that means that there will be factors that are outside of the 548 00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,360 executives control that can affect on their performance in 549 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,680 the role. But more concretely, if I wanted 550 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,000 to look at what are the things that are inside the executive 551 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,280 leaders control, then the top three reasons for aggregated 552 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,440 transition failure are to do with people, culture and 553 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,000 politics. So as I say it on podcast like 554 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:01,640 like yours, it's the functional or the technical skills that 555 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,400 gets your heart into the C-Suite. 556 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,280 And it's the lack of the so-called soft skills that gets 557 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,440 you fired pretty quickly on the back end of that. 558 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,880 Wow, interested now your book is actually titled Mastery and 559 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,239 Executive Transitions. What What really inspired you to 560 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,880 write it and what gap were you trying to fill with that book? 561 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,239 Before we dive back into today's conversation, I want to share 562 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,400 something important. This episode includes a paid 563 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,480 partnership with Better Health, a platform designed to make 564 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:37,040 starting therapy easier. I know from my own journey as a 565 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,480 leader and entrepreneur that life can sometimes feel 566 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,639 overwhelming. There are seasons where stress, 567 00:34:43,679 --> 00:34:48,080 uncertainty, and pressure build up, and you need a safe space to 568 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,400 process it all. That's where therapy comes in. 569 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,840 Therapy isn't only for people facing clinical challenges. 570 00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:01,520 It's a space to reflect, grow, and find better ways to manage 571 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,040 stress, relationships, and personal goals. 572 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:09,920 It takes courage to seek help, but it's also one of the 573 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,720 smartest investments you can make in your mental and 574 00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,960 emotional well-being. That's why I'm proud to 575 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:19,600 highlight Better Help with Better Help. 576 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:22,800 You simply feel. Out a short questionnaire and 577 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,360 get matched with a credentialed therapist in just a couple of 578 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:28,720 days. 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Inside the platform, you'll also 582 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,640 find tools like journaling and group sessions on different 583 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,880 topics that can support your growth. 584 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:51,240 And with over 7000 reviews and a 4.5 Trustpathet rating, Better 585 00:35:51,240 --> 00:35:53,720 Help is a platform you can rely on. 586 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,320 So if you feel like you'd benefit from talking to a 587 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:02,240 therapist, visit betterhelp.com/kingjames. 588 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,520 That's betterhelp.com forward slash. 589 00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:10,360 King James to get. 10% off your first month of therapy. 590 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,440 Once again, this is a paid partnership with better help and 591 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,400 I encourage you to take that first step. 592 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:19,880 If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best 593 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,080 investment you can make these in yourself. 594 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:30,520 Yeah, look, I mean, despite the fact that I did work for some of 595 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,880 the world's most admired companies, I I can't really put 596 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,120 my hand on heart and say this one company did this process 597 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,640 justice in the most pure way. And so I felt that this even 598 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,680 companies that are generally considered best practice when it 599 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,120 comes to employee onboarding somehow fall short of making 600 00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,120 sure that the general onboarding, which is perfect for 601 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:59,960 99.5% of the total population, is translated correctly for the 602 00:36:59,960 --> 00:37:03,960 top C St. executives. Because it's a whole different 603 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:07,720 league and it takes a whole different approach to make sure 604 00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:11,480 that those guys and girls get appointed into those top 605 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:15,160 positions and are having a decent chance of succeeding. 606 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,160 So that was the the intrigue. And another time, this is you 607 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:24,680 know, 20/13/2014 I did try to educate myself. 608 00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:28,240 I did look on Amazon and other places to find the books that 609 00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:31,920 speak about the topic only to find that there isn't a single 610 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,320 book written and dedicated to this particular topic. 611 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:40,280 There were a gazillion generic on generic on boarding books 612 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:43,360 like the first 90 days is the most popular one and there are 613 00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,240 about 100 copycats books of the same. 614 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:50,280 There wasn't a single book dedicated to and you know the 615 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:55,200 1st 90 days just to use this concrete example, had a subtitle 616 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,400 that the author dropped a few years ago. 617 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,640 Critical success strategies. Critical onboarding strategies 618 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,760 for leaders at all levels. And I have worked in the HR 619 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:07,800 domain for too long to know that if something has been written 620 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:11,920 for any leader at any level, it clearly is not fit for purpose 621 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,560 for the top level leadership. So when I saw that there isn't a 622 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:18,920 single book written on the topic, I thought to myself, you 623 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,040 know what? I might as well start to do the 624 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,160 research to then write the first book on the topic. 625 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,640 And I'm really delighted to see that, you know, since my book 626 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,240 has launched, there have been three additional books written 627 00:38:31,240 --> 00:38:34,640 on the topic, always with the CEO in mind. 628 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,520 So the life cycle of ACEO or the new CEO are just two of those 3 629 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,880 newly published book that look at the same topic through ACEO 630 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:46,480 lens. So I I think it's fair to say 631 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:51,600 that in a way I opened that category of books to top level 632 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,240 leaders because no one else had thought of writing a book about 633 00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:57,760 it. Amazing. 634 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,000 And of course, what a great way to say with my next question. 635 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaking of the 1st 90 days, what would you say are the most 636 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:12,000 costly mistakes that C St. executives make during their 637 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,480 first 90 days in the new leadership? 638 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:16,320 Role. So the first thing I would say 639 00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,520 about the 1st 90 days is that it's nowhere near sufficient for 640 00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,200 anyone at the top of an organization to really want to 641 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:28,440 hang on to just that. And the reason I say that is 642 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:33,160 because I find in my coaching practice and in my 20 plus years 643 00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,480 of HR experience at the senior level, transitioning at the very 644 00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:42,720 top is a 12 to 18 months job. It's never a 90 day job again. 645 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:46,280 It's beyond me. Adamola while an incoming CEO 646 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,320 must be sitting on their hands waiting patiently until day one 647 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,880 to then start to run like crazy and then drop the ball again on 648 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,760 day 90. It's just does not make sense to 649 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,720 me, which is why if you look at the double diamond framework 650 00:40:00,720 --> 00:40:06,160 that I gave to the world, you know in my book is a 12 plus 651 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,480 months journey and it consists of seven unique phases of which 652 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,160 only one looks at the 1st 90 days. 653 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,000 I would like to go back one step and and it's interesting because 654 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,560 the 1st 90 days I call that face immerse in my double diamond 655 00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,400 framework. It is only the second phase of 656 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:24,840 the seven phases. There is a. 657 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,600 The very important phase that is oftentimes missed because the 658 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,280 book of this other gentleman sadly didn't quite reach the 659 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,520 same level of fame as the first 90 days. 660 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,880 And that book is called before onboarding. 661 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:45,280 Imagine, Adam Ola, you are the incoming CFO of a company called 662 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,840 X, right? And the company has announced 663 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,440 your appointment, but you have another six weeks until you're 664 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,680 actually starting your new job, right? 665 00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,640 You're still in your old company. 666 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,640 You have, you're about to leave that company, but the company X 667 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,360 has already announced your arrival, let's say on the 1st of 668 00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,360 July. Yeah, that roughly gives us six 669 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,440 weeks from now. There are many concrete things 670 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,600 you can do between now and the 1st of July that you do not want 671 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,600 to wait for the 1st of July to start doing. 672 00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,440 First one is educating and grounding yourself in your new 673 00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:27,280 organization, meaning reading all the material that can get 674 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,160 your hands on going. If it's a public listed company, 675 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,080 going on the website, logging into an investor relations 676 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,760 portal and watching all the analyst and quarterly results 677 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:41,120 announcements where the analysts are grilling the CEO or CFO and 678 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:45,320 what they expect of the company. Reading strategy documents that 679 00:41:45,320 --> 00:41:47,800 they may make available to you because you have already signed 680 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,480 your new contract of employment. So you know you're you're Privy 681 00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:52,400 to confidential information at this stage. 682 00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:55,800 If there is a predecessor in the position, if it's deemed 683 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,600 appropriate, you can reach out to the CFO in the role who you 684 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,560 will replace in six weeks time to have a conversation about 685 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:05,480 what sense they make of this position, right? 686 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,880 If they were to help you prepare your SWAT, what would be the 687 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,360 SWOT that you would want to put on this slide deck of yours? 688 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:15,400 If it's deemed appropriate, you can reach out to the finance 689 00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,720 leadership team that you will be inheriting in six weeks from now 690 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,400 and introduce yourself to them. Give them a bit of a flavour 691 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,360 about you, your style of leadership and what you expect 692 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,720 from them and at the same time learn about them and what they 693 00:42:28,720 --> 00:42:31,920 expect of the incoming CFO and the the future line manager. 694 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:36,120 And one last example I want to use is every company has at 695 00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,920 least one leadership team off site that they sometimes do 696 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:41,840 externally, sometimes supported by someone like myself. 697 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,560 If that event is about to take place in the next six weeks, it 698 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,040 will be foolish for you not to make sure that you attend that 699 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:51,400 event. Because guess what? 700 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,560 That event is going to set the stage for the next 12 to 24 to 701 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,760 36 months to come. Which means that you want to 702 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,520 make sure to have a seat at that table, even if it's not possible 703 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,840 to give your input, at least as a silent observer. 704 00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,920 So you know what the CEO wants, what the board members want and 705 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:14,160 all that. So you see, there are so many 706 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:18,480 things that you can do even before you are technically on 707 00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:22,400 your day one in the role. And This is why I I say often on 708 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,520 podcast that the 1st 90 days is a myth. 709 00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,720 And so it's only one seventh of the total equation. 710 00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:30,560 If you wanted to look at the double diamond framework as a 711 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:36,240 success formula, it's only one out of the 7th of the equation 712 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:40,000 of what makes a an executive successful during the first 12 713 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,640 months. Not amazing. 714 00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:47,400 So you you briefly touched on organizational politics, right, 715 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,920 and cultural failure in terms of factors that influence, you 716 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,560 know, whether an executive, you know, is successful in their 717 00:43:56,560 --> 00:44:02,440 role or not. But this is a burning question 718 00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:08,080 that is on the leaves of a lot of people in the corporate 719 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,480 space, right? So why do technically brilliant 720 00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:17,680 leaders sometimes feel politically or culture and even 721 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,400 when they achieve strong results? 722 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,880 Yeah, see at the more I don't know about you, but have you 723 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,680 come across a course that teaches people how to become 724 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,600 better politics or how to become better culture? 725 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,120 There isn't, right? Which means it's one of those 726 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:39,720 things HR keeps banging out to managers and individuals and 727 00:44:39,720 --> 00:44:42,200 leaders. It's one of those things you 728 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:45,560 have to learn on the job. And of course, you can work with 729 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:48,280 someone like myself or other people who can help you to 730 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:52,840 reflect and make sense of it. But allow me to use one 731 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,080 particular aspect of the double diamond framework. 732 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,320 And so I call that the 5C's, right? 733 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:02,760 I mean, you are currently dialing into our episodes from 734 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:05,760 South Africa. And I know South Africa's an 735 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:07,680 incredible country and great for many things. 736 00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:11,440 One of them are diamonds. So if you wanted to buy a 737 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,800 diamond as an investment, let's say, or you wanted to gift it to 738 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,680 someone who's close to you, the 5C's that make an outstanding 739 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,040 diamond are carrot weight, color, clarity, cut and 740 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,640 certification. So it's a combination of those 741 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,840 5C's that you will want to make sure that you get the best 742 00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,240 diamond for the budget that you have available for this present 743 00:45:34,240 --> 00:45:36,760 of yours. Now if I wanted to use the same 744 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,160 5C's in the sense of the double diamond framework, the 5C's are 745 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:47,680 context arguably the most important CFO because it looks 746 00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:50,920 at the circumstances of the organization, of the competition 747 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,320 landscape of the government and society surrounding this role, 748 00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,880 this company and the wider say called landscape. 749 00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,400 The second C looks at culture. This is looking at 750 00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,480 organizational culture. What are the leadership traits 751 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:08,720 in this company? And they may be different in PwC 752 00:46:08,720 --> 00:46:14,120 than they are in EY, right? And it also looks at values. 753 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:17,720 What are guiding principles? What are our beliefs in this one 754 00:46:17,720 --> 00:46:20,840 organization here that may or may not be similar to whatever 755 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,680 else I am used to. The third C looks at 756 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,080 commitments. What is this company or firm 757 00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,640 committed to achieving for its customers, clients and society 758 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,400 at large? What are the ambitious ambition 759 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,640 levels in this one organization? And it says a lot about what is 760 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:42,240 expected to be also commitments from you as the incoming C-Suite 761 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:45,000 executive. The 4th 1 looks at circles. 762 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,680 What are the circles of influence, power, but more 763 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,520 importantly, informal decision making? 764 00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:56,080 I won't mention the the name of the company, but there was a 765 00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,560 very famous CTO who had to be let go of because they went for 766 00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:05,120 a technology solution that made all the sense in the world 767 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,400 looking at the analysis that McKinsey prepared for them. 768 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:14,240 But they failed to check this with someone who was considered 769 00:47:14,240 --> 00:47:17,920 to be the deep subject matter expert in the same organization. 770 00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:21,320 He unfortunately did did not have the most senior job title 771 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,400 next to his name. That's why he wasn't even on the 772 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,600 radar of this particular CTO. But with that choice that he 773 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,560 made essentially had to be let go of. 774 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:34,080 And so informal decision making means who are the go to people 775 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:38,760 in your organization for the topic that are crucial to your 776 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:41,280 mission success. And and last but not least, the 777 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,800 fifth C looks at confidence levels. 778 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,080 What are the levels of employee engagement in this company? 779 00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,360 What is the description of a leadership DNA here? 780 00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,920 And so the way I use the 5C's is I give them, I give the 781 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,240 executive leader, if I'm coaching them a very brief 782 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:00,200 explanation of what they stand for. 783 00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,920 Then they take it as their homework to sit down and think 784 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:09,400 about what about the context of this new position and if it's a 785 00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,960 new company, even more important that I want to think about. 786 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,360 And more importantly, that is different than the context of 787 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:22,640 the other role in the other company that I was hired to do 788 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,160 right now. What about the culture? 789 00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,200 What about the commitment? What about the circus, what our 790 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,080 confidence? And I want them to think about 791 00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,680 mitigation strategies ahead of the of the coaching 792 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:35,200 conversation. And when they come to the 793 00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:39,240 coaching conversation, I will coach them around every one of 794 00:48:39,240 --> 00:48:42,120 these five CS. And by doing that, what I will 795 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:48,160 do is I will equip them to the best degree possible to not walk 796 00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:52,120 on all these landmines that are laid out for them around people, 797 00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:56,640 culture and politics in the new position slash new organization. 798 00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:02,680 So what what would you say is a role of emotional intelligence 799 00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,120 right in executive leadership today? 800 00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,960 Is is it teachable? Of course, like anything, you 801 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:15,840 can learn things, right? I mean, IQEQ are, you know, 802 00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:19,800 considered to be important to anyone that wants to grow their 803 00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,640 career. I would actually want to add a 804 00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:27,400 third one to this at the danger of creating a new acronym, but I 805 00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,600 call that Transition Intelligence TQ, right, which is 806 00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,080 OK. Just because you have been 807 00:49:34,080 --> 00:49:37,160 successful in the past transitioning from one position 808 00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:40,840 to another, it does not guarantee whatsoever that you 809 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:44,360 will be continuing to be transition ready and successful 810 00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:48,040 in your future transition. Which again, you know, doing the 811 00:49:48,040 --> 00:49:51,880 work with someone like myself. And I have trained up 72 coaches 812 00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,240 by now who are certified transition coaches. 813 00:49:54,240 --> 00:49:57,080 So everything I use in my coaching practice has been made 814 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:00,800 available to those 72 coaches. And they're already working for 815 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:05,040 companies just to give you some names like ABP, Adidas, Louis 816 00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,360 Vuitton, Hennessy, LVMH, the largest luxury company in the 817 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,560 world, and many, many more others to who are deploying 818 00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,120 these tools in their transition coaching practice. 819 00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:20,640 So again, IQ is important, EQ is important, but TQ is equally 820 00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,880 important, if not probably more important because chances are at 821 00:50:24,880 --> 00:50:28,440 the MOLA if you are considered for the CFO position in company 822 00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:32,920 X, you have already demonstrated high degree of IQ EQ already. 823 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,000 Now the question is can you do the TQ on top? 824 00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,920 That is very, very important. And of course, I think bringing 825 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:46,400 it back to what I say outside of the leadership, let's talk about 826 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,640 real life scenarios, right? Amelia wanted to host a webinar, 827 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,640 but the tool couldn't deliver. Zooming out, she turned to 828 00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,160 Webinar Key, an expert solution for webinars. 829 00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,560 With seamless setup and intuitive design, she delivered 830 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:02,400 the perfect webinar. Webinar Key host webinars like a 831 00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:07,720 boss. You've been a tough guy in the 832 00:51:07,720 --> 00:51:12,400 UK doesn't transition to you being a tough guy in South 833 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,480 Africa or in Nigeria or in the US for example, right? 834 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,720 So same thing with organizations, right? 835 00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,840 You being a high performer software does not mean that you 836 00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,400 would necessarily, you know, just come in and plug and play. 837 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:31,480 But I think a lot of people do not realize that they come and I 838 00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,360 think it's probably like a mindset thing. 839 00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:39,960 So what would you say in terms of adjusting the mindset because 840 00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,880 of being a lot of people don't realize this about me. 841 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:48,000 I used to be, did I say teacher? I used to be a lecturer for 842 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,440 professional students, right? So I've trained a lot of 843 00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,360 Chartered Accountants. I've treated thousands of 844 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,920 Chartered Accountants, right? Recently, a post on LinkedIn was 845 00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,000 what reminded me of my past life that oh, wow, you used to 846 00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:01,840 lecture, you used to train Chartered Accountants, right? 847 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:08,360 But it's interesting to see how from the people that I trained, 848 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:14,760 people who had a finance background, right tend to 849 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:19,880 underperform compared to people without a finance background. 850 00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:23,640 And when I had a seat back to think about it, it's mostly 851 00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,440 because the guys without a finance background come with the 852 00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:28,880 mentality of I need to play catch up. 853 00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:33,400 I don't know this thing, I need to know it, but a lot of the 854 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:37,800 guys with the finance or admin or management background, they 855 00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,480 come with the ideology of I know it's what I know already, but 856 00:52:42,720 --> 00:52:47,480 they now get outperformed right by the people without a finance 857 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,880 background. So I'd like for you to to to 858 00:52:49,880 --> 00:52:53,640 shed some light on that. So two things come up for me. 859 00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:57,800 I mean, firstly, and that's, that's the easy of the two. 860 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,640 So let's get that out of the way. 861 00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:05,560 Every organization has their own beliefs, sometimes not even 862 00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,480 captured anywhere. And so I can tell you when I 863 00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:14,000 used to work for British American Tobacco BAT, the most 864 00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:21,200 GM/CEO appointments were made of leaders who had a marketing 865 00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,440 background. And you may say that's right or 866 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:27,920 that's wrong, but the reality was that more than 65% of all 867 00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:33,160 GM/CEO appointments were made of former managing directors, 868 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,640 sorry, made of a marketing directors. 869 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:38,680 And it was never a written rule anywhere. 870 00:53:38,680 --> 00:53:41,320 We never considered that to be the norm. 871 00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,560 The reality was though, that that was where the most 872 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:48,440 appointments were made from. Now Fast forward to Vodafone 873 00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,240 where I worked with the group CFO and then the finest 874 00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:55,400 leadership team and the 27,000 finest leaders all around the 875 00:53:55,400 --> 00:54:00,120 world in 24 markets. Most of our GMs and CEOs were 876 00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:04,680 former FDS and CFOs, right? Again, it was one of these 877 00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,400 organizational beliefs that wasn't captured anywhere. 878 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,360 And nobody said, oh, but I will not accept this GM appointment 879 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,120 if he or she does not have a finance background. 880 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:19,400 But these are the beliefs that sometimes color our decision 881 00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:21,800 making right, whether we like to admit it or not. 882 00:54:22,240 --> 00:54:23,680 So that's the first thing I want to say. 883 00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:27,520 So what you said, I can't universally say that's true or 884 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,560 not true. I just don't have a big enough 885 00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:32,120 sample size to be able to say, yes, people with the finest 886 00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,360 background outperform the other peers. 887 00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:38,120 What I can say though is what you said initially, which is 888 00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:42,440 when I describe the most common executive transition challenges, 889 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:47,160 and I cite 12 in my book, I speak about challenges like the 890 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,240 new organization challenge, right? 891 00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,360 If you have been appointed in a new company, that's already one 892 00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,720 transition challenge you need to take care of. 893 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:58,520 The second one is the big promotion challenge. 894 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:02,240 If you have never been ACFO before, you may have been a head 895 00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:05,720 of finance or a finance target, but never AC suite finance 896 00:55:05,720 --> 00:55:08,400 executive. That's already your second 897 00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,160 transition challenge. The third one is the leading 898 00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,760 former peers challenge, meaning or you would just appear to all 899 00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,760 these people for whatever reason, the company has decided 900 00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:24,720 that you are now the PAC leader. And that in itself creates a 901 00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:29,400 whole different level of dynamic with all of your peers because 902 00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:33,280 guess what? That's what you have to live up 903 00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:37,280 with up to right now. The 4th 1 is what Michael 904 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,840 Watkins very politically correctly refers to as the 905 00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:44,640 Corporate Diplomacy Challenge, which I think is a nice word for 906 00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,640 what I call politics. Again, no company likes to admit 907 00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:50,560 that this thing called politics exists in their company. 908 00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:54,320 It's always some competitors problem there, but the reality 909 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,720 is, and I've seen that first hand, as soon as you move from a 910 00:55:57,720 --> 00:56:01,120 country position into a regional or into the global head office 911 00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:05,680 role, which I have done multiple times over, you get to be 912 00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,440 exposed to a high degree of politics. 913 00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:11,640 And if you cannot deal with that, well guess what? 914 00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,760 That's why it's one of your transition challenges to 915 00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,400 overcome. The fifth one is what you 916 00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,080 referred to as the international move challenge. 917 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,960 I moved from Germany to the German speaking part of 918 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:26,400 Switzerland and you could argue it's pretty much the same thing. 919 00:56:26,720 --> 00:56:31,640 The reality is if you were to move from Dublin to London, 920 00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,400 although technically all these are English speaking kind of 921 00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:37,480 cities and countries, the reality is you will face a very 922 00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,080 different cultural challenge. The 6th 1 is the turn around 923 00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:46,040 challenge, meaning you have always been the captain of ships 924 00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:50,200 that have had sunshine and steady, you know, performance. 925 00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:55,160 Suddenly you have to deal with a ship that is about to sink or 926 00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:57,960 hit the iceberg. And so the question is can you 927 00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,320 do that as well? You know, in German, we say to 928 00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:04,080 them, shouldn't better capitate, meaning nice weather captains 929 00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:08,280 who have always been riding the the waves somehow, you know, 930 00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,600 through luck or whatever circumstances. 931 00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,840 But now that the ship is about to hit the iceberg, do they have 932 00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,680 what it takes to stir the ship away from disaster? 933 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:20,360 The 7th 1, which is 1. I have faced myself oftentimes. 934 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:25,440 I've been headhunted many times in my career and often times the 935 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,880 mandate that I was given was to make sure that I repositioned 936 00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:33,720 the HR function towards what the company expects of the HR 937 00:57:33,720 --> 00:57:36,760 leaders. Meaning I had to realign the HR 938 00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:40,760 function around more commercial targets or more closely with the 939 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:44,560 business goals. And the last one out of the 12, 940 00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:48,200 the top 8 is the so-called business portfolio challenge. 941 00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,400 Think of Walt Disney as one of these examples. 942 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:55,200 Walt Disney, the biggest revenue and profitability driver for 943 00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:58,800 them is the theme parks, a fish. They have, I don't know, 8 or so 944 00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,520 around the world, but they also have an IPTV proposition, which 945 00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,880 is called Disney Plus. But they also have merchandising 946 00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:09,040 articles, which is like, you know, mugs and and and and cups 947 00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:13,600 and toys and what have you. Now managing an enterprise that 948 00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:19,240 has all these various businesses underneath is a whole different 949 00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:22,840 complexity. And so these are just eight of 950 00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:25,800 the transition challenges I wanted to share with you office. 951 00:58:25,800 --> 00:58:29,000 You touched upon one or two. And what really gets those 952 00:58:29,000 --> 00:58:32,360 executives to fail 40% of the time at the moolah is the fact 953 00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:37,760 that it's a stacking of these challenges at the same 954 00:58:37,760 --> 00:58:40,400 appointment level. So if I use my own little 955 00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:45,920 example, when I was hired by Rush to move from Germany as a 956 00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:50,520 HRD for Europe to become the global head of HR for HR and 957 00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:55,160 Communications, that meant that I was faced with five transition 958 00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,440 challenges all at the same time. I had the new organization 959 00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:00,680 challenge. Rush was a new company. 960 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,200 I had never worked for them before. 961 00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:05,200 Actually, if I wanted to add another one, it was a new 962 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:06,280 industry. I'd never worked for 963 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:08,200 pharmaceuticals before. Then. 964 00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:09,520 I had the big promotion challenge. 965 00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:12,640 It was the first global role that I was hiding to. 966 00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,600 I suddenly had 140 country footprint to work with, not 8 967 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,560 European countries that were almost in the same time zone 968 00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,920 anymore. I also have to face and deal 969 00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:25,200 with the corporate diplomacy challenge or the politics. 970 00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:28,080 Because I was working out of Basel, which was the global 971 00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,720 headquarters. I also had to work with the 972 00:59:31,720 --> 00:59:34,240 International Move Challenge, which was something I had 973 00:59:34,240 --> 00:59:37,400 experienced before, but not quite in the same level because 974 00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:39,880 Switzerland was new for me as a new destination. 975 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,360 And last but not least, they created the position as a new 976 00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:46,240 position and hired me into. Which means that although I did 977 00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:49,680 mention that that was a new challenge for me because I had 978 00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:53,800 to own my space, that was newly created space for me and for the 979 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,440 position, which meant that some of the established HRDS who 980 00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:59,840 didn't want to let go of their beloved projects and their 981 00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,480 beloved budget. I had to force my way into those 982 01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,080 and, and, and get those to be transferred to me because that 983 01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,000 was part of my new remit. So you see how it's like you 984 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:14,560 want to eat a burger that has five patties and you're trying 985 01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,680 to eat this thing all at the same time. 986 01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,200 And of course, the more you start to stack up, the more 987 01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,240 challenging and tricky it becomes. 988 01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:27,200 Amazing. Like at this point I feel I feel 989 01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:31,920 really envious for the audience. Of course we have delivered a 990 01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:36,800 lot of value today. But why are you speaking about 991 01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:38,960 those transitions? You know, especially from a 992 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,880 regional role to a global role, right? 993 01:00:42,360 --> 01:00:47,560 But I think within the last two months we had the ex president 994 01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,760 of Coca-Cola International, Ahmed Boza on the podcast, 995 01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:58,400 right? And he was ACFO before he was 996 01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:00,200 made president. I think, you know, American 997 01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:04,080 companies called the CEO's president, but he spoke about 998 01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:11,520 that transition from the CFO role to the president role and 999 01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:16,400 spoke about the transition from regional roles to now the 1000 01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:20,120 international roles. But one thing that really stuck 1001 01:01:20,120 --> 01:01:25,240 for me from his, from that conversation with him moving 1002 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:30,800 from the CFO role to the CEO role was being a CFO, you're 1003 01:01:30,800 --> 01:01:33,000 more buried in the numbers, you're more buried in the 1004 01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:37,560 technical details. But moving to that CEO role, he 1005 01:01:37,560 --> 01:01:42,840 now had to be more of a people leader, right? 1006 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:47,960 So I'd like for you to speak to that transition from, you know, 1007 01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,800 one level of C streets to another level, especially, you 1008 01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:56,480 know, if you're probably moving from the CMO to the CEO or CFO 1009 01:01:56,480 --> 01:02:01,520 to CEO, we really don't see how it affects these individuals, 1010 01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:04,280 right? You it's more like you're moving 1011 01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,960 from a specialist role to a generalist role. 1012 01:02:07,160 --> 01:02:12,000 So what are the guard rails that help with executive success? 1013 01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:15,200 Right? Making those transitions, yes. 1014 01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:18,560 So the short answer is the double diamond framework is what 1015 01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,160 I would recommend that particular executive to also 1016 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:25,360 utilize, ideally with someone like myself or one of the 72 1017 01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,760 coaches I've trained because that really gives them the 1018 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:32,120 highest degree of a success. Now, if I wanted to unpack maybe 1019 01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:36,000 one or two additional tools, one of them is not based on 1020 01:02:36,000 --> 01:02:38,360 empirical research. You know, my book is very well 1021 01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,120 researched. I spent five years just 1022 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:44,280 researching the topic. I have 156 citations in my book, 1023 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,880 so the appendix is 22 pages long. 1024 01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:50,560 This particular framework is something that I have created on 1025 01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:55,000 my own without necessarily basing it on an empirical 1026 01:02:55,240 --> 01:02:57,960 framework. It's, it's based on my humble 1027 01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:02,160 experience of and the sample size of 350 executives I have 1028 01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:07,640 coached in the last 14 years now in the last 12 years. 1029 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:12,400 So I called them the six essential qualities of 1030 01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:17,080 extraordinary leaders, OK. And for this particular CFO 1031 01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:20,880 switching into the CEO role, these are the six qualities I 1032 01:03:20,880 --> 01:03:27,720 would want them to consider and rank themselves on a spider web 1033 01:03:27,720 --> 01:03:32,240 to say what is my current state as a leader, honest assessment 1034 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:36,760 and what is my desired state as a, as an incoming international 1035 01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:40,880 CEO. So that the first two are having 1036 01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:44,200 the confidence and a high degree of self-awareness. 1037 01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,800 OK, I won't mention any particular names, but there are 1038 01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:52,520 many very famous walled politicians who have a ton of 1039 01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,040 confidence but aren't necessarily very good in taking 1040 01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:58,280 a look. And the hard look in the mirror 1041 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,640 to determine is any of what I'm saying actually landing with my 1042 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:05,000 audience or is it a bit too much? 1043 01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:09,360 So these two out of the six help the leader to expand their 1044 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,480 identity. I call that self leadership. 1045 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:16,120 OK, the next two are being connected. 1046 01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:21,280 Imagine a Wi-Fi signal and being an, an inspiring leader. 1047 01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:25,680 And again, I know many leaders who have a ton of inspirational 1048 01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:27,920 leadership. They go on a big stage and they, 1049 01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:31,080 they make the, the, the most incredible speeches, but they 1050 01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:35,200 fail to speak to the individual that is swiping the floors late 1051 01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,760 in the evening in their office because they just don't know 1052 01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:41,000 what to say or how to connect with that level of individual. 1053 01:04:41,080 --> 01:04:45,360 So it's the combination of the two that enhances the impact of 1054 01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,000 that executive. And I call these two the 1055 01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:50,280 combination of two team leadership. 1056 01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:54,280 And that brings me to the last two qualities of extraordinary 1057 01:04:54,280 --> 01:04:57,960 leaders. The fifth one is courage and the 1058 01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:02,760 6th 1 is clarity. Again, stereotypical. 1059 01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:06,120 I know a lot of executives who have a ton of courage. 1060 01:05:06,320 --> 01:05:11,200 Let's go, go, go, go, go, but do not necessarily provide the 1061 01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:16,040 necessary clarity around why we are going this direction. 1062 01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:20,040 What is the what's in it for everyone, not just for me or for 1063 01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:23,800 the board, if we were all to rally behind this one mission 1064 01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:25,840 and and really achieve this target here. 1065 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:30,120 So it's a combination of the two that elevates the results of an 1066 01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,960 executive leader. And I call these two business 1067 01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,800 leadership. So to sum it up, it's about 1068 01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:39,760 being confident, self aware, connected, inspiring, 1069 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,800 courageous, and having the clarity to make sure that you 1070 01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:46,720 align yourself leadership with team leadership, with business 1071 01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:50,720 leadership so that you can expand your identity, enhance 1072 01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:55,240 your impact and elevate results. And that's one particular 1073 01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,760 toolkit is something that I can work with a leader, for 1074 01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,720 instance, also to do a qualitative 360 interview with 1075 01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:07,320 people that are the boss, their peers and the dark reports to 1076 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:11,240 gather their meaningful input and wise I download that for the 1077 01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:12,680 leader. They will then do the 1078 01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:17,000 self-assessment as to what is the current state of mine when I 1079 01:06:17,000 --> 01:06:21,120 look at these six qualities and what is my desire to be. 1080 01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,760 And that then becomes our road map for success. 1081 01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:28,760 Amazing. But behind the courageous faces 1082 01:06:28,760 --> 01:06:32,640 in public, right? We know that a lot of leaders 1083 01:06:32,640 --> 01:06:37,520 struggle with the imposter syndrome at the highest of 1084 01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:40,840 levels, but unfortunately, the stakes are the highest. 1085 01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,760 So how? What's your recommendation for 1086 01:06:45,160 --> 01:06:47,200 how to deal with imposter syndrome? 1087 01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:54,640 Yeah, I mean, look, I, I think, and I do just briefly allude to 1088 01:06:54,640 --> 01:07:00,360 this in in my book, right. I speak about the imposter 1089 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,040 syndrome in, in my book very briefly, because I really, 1090 01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:06,720 again, I, I'm not a psychologist, I'm not a 1091 01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:12,240 psychotherapist. I do not claim to know too much 1092 01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,920 about the topic. What I can say, though, is that 1093 01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:21,960 a lot more executives than they would admit actually have faced 1094 01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,080 impostor syndrome, right? That's the real truth. 1095 01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:30,240 I cite a particular study that looks at what is the actual 1096 01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:35,200 percentage, right, of leaders and people who have cited that 1097 01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:39,200 they have come across this phenomenon previously in some 1098 01:07:39,520 --> 01:07:43,680 form or shape. And it's it's quite shocking 1099 01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:49,440 because that number is 70%. So 7 out of 10 people have 1100 01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:52,440 experienced these feelings at some point in their lives. 1101 01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:55,880 And I cite the International Journal of Behavioral Science 1102 01:07:56,160 --> 01:08:00,480 from 2011 here. And so why is I say that? 1103 01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,360 Yeah. I mean, you know, impostor 1104 01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:07,840 syndrome can be a challenge and can stand in the way of the 1105 01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:12,080 leader and their mission and probably what whatever is the 1106 01:08:12,120 --> 01:08:15,200 the success that they want to achieve. 1107 01:08:15,640 --> 01:08:21,040 But we also need to bear in mind that there are real upsides of 1108 01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,600 impostor syndrome. And again, I think that that's 1109 01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:28,520 sometimes neglected or unexplored, but there are some 1110 01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:33,080 real benefits to be had if, you know, you wanted to look at that 1111 01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:37,479 as an actual upside. And I think there are scholars 1112 01:08:37,479 --> 01:08:42,080 more famous than I am and more deep on the matter that have 1113 01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:46,359 pointed out those upsides of coming across and facing 1114 01:08:46,359 --> 01:08:49,560 impostor syndrome. And some of them are things like 1115 01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:55,279 because you are so worried that you may not perform right, which 1116 01:08:55,279 --> 01:08:59,399 is a real thing if you have impostor syndrome, you over and 1117 01:08:59,399 --> 01:09:02,520 over prepare for whatever you are going to do. 1118 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:05,600 So if it's a keynote presentation, you really want to 1119 01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:08,600 make sure that you have researched the topic and you 1120 01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:13,479 have taken enough attempts with your family and friends to 1121 01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:17,800 really get comfortable and a little more confident at 1122 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:21,279 presenting this topic. If it's about, you know, meeting 1123 01:09:21,279 --> 01:09:25,279 and attending in meeting boardrooms and so on, you are 1124 01:09:25,279 --> 01:09:28,080 more likely. If you're not quite a confident 1125 01:09:28,080 --> 01:09:32,600 in your contributions yet, you may reach out to someone who is 1126 01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:37,080 more senior than you are in the same boardroom and ask them to 1127 01:09:37,080 --> 01:09:40,920 give you proper feedback on the back end of each meeting. 1128 01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:45,359 Meaning again, you are taking very valuable feedback on board. 1129 01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:49,479 And not only that, but you're actually listening for 1130 01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:52,880 improvement suggestions here, and you are not dismissing the 1131 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:55,400 feedback because you think you're above it all anyway. 1132 01:09:55,400 --> 01:09:58,600 And what, what, what really is there for you to improve on? 1133 01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:02,920 And so there are real reasons. And this is actually called as 1134 01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,800 the Dunning Kruger inverse, which means that sometimes 1135 01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:11,200 competence correlates with doubts and that doubt drives the 1136 01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:14,200 behaviour that compounds into more competence. 1137 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:19,880 So for me, I want to take it out of this imposter kind of title 1138 01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:23,320 and bring it to humility, right? I mean, this is one of the 1139 01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:26,600 profound things that I learned from one of my mentors. 1140 01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,760 His name is Doctor Marshall Goldsmith, who said that, you 1141 01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:33,120 know, he was in a conversation with a particular leader and he 1142 01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:35,320 asked the leader, what is your development edge? 1143 01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,400 What, what topic would you like to develop on? 1144 01:10:37,640 --> 01:10:40,520 And the leader actually turned around and told him, look, I'm, 1145 01:10:40,520 --> 01:10:42,800 I'm complete. There's nothing left for me to 1146 01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:45,800 improve on. And this is where Marshall said, 1147 01:10:46,040 --> 01:10:48,160 may ioffer you a humble suggestion. 1148 01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,200 He said, sure, yeah, go ahead. And he said, how about humility, 1149 01:10:51,560 --> 01:10:53,560 right? Because for me that that seems 1150 01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:58,600 to be a development area to you. So humility is a learning 1151 01:10:58,600 --> 01:11:04,040 posture and certainty is not, which is one of the reasons if 1152 01:11:04,040 --> 01:11:07,160 you look at the research that's been conducted by a doctor, 1153 01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:11,200 Robert Hogan, the founder of Hogan Assessment Systems, is 1154 01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,800 that if you look at CEO performance over a longer time 1155 01:11:14,800 --> 01:11:18,520 period and you look at the total shareholder return, the CEOs 1156 01:11:18,520 --> 01:11:22,600 that have demonstrated humility are outperforming their peers 1157 01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:26,120 who have demonstrated a lot of charisma or charismatic 1158 01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:28,240 leadership. This is. 1159 01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:30,720 Really amazing. And you know, I love that 1160 01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:35,320 correlation between confidence, sorry, competence and doubt, 1161 01:11:35,440 --> 01:11:40,360 right? But for me, I believe that 1162 01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:43,800 confidence comes with competence. 1163 01:11:44,480 --> 01:11:46,560 So I don't know if you agree with that. 1164 01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:49,800 Of course, the more competent you are, the more confident you 1165 01:11:49,800 --> 01:11:54,720 become. But I also love that humility 1166 01:11:54,760 --> 01:11:59,400 that you spoke about, right? Because humility actually helps 1167 01:11:59,400 --> 01:12:02,720 you to have, or would I say helps you to become teachable. 1168 01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:07,760 And the moment you stop being teachable, it puts a ceiling on 1169 01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:12,520 your growth, right? But a lot of people don't talk 1170 01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:16,080 about the mindsets. And on this forecast, we have a 1171 01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,680 philosophy, mindset, skill set, tool set. 1172 01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:25,040 That is, before we collaborate with anybody, we want to 1173 01:12:25,040 --> 01:12:26,720 evaluate where is your mindset art. 1174 01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:30,360 All right, but believe that for you to be successful at 1175 01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:33,360 anything, right, you need to first of all, have the right 1176 01:12:33,360 --> 01:12:37,520 mindset, then develop the right skill sets, then adopt the right 1177 01:12:37,520 --> 01:12:41,120 tool set, then you can actually achieve success. 1178 01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:44,800 So while Speaking of the mindset on the pressure, right, you 1179 01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:46,600 talked about the fair weather captains. 1180 01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:49,720 It's very easy to to achieve success on the, you know, 1181 01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:51,840 Clemence weather conditions, right? 1182 01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:56,360 But what role does mindset play when you're navigating 1183 01:12:56,360 --> 01:13:00,360 uncertainty, restructuring organizational politics by 1184 01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:04,160 contingencies? What role does mindset play? 1185 01:13:04,480 --> 01:13:06,520 You know when you're under pressure. 1186 01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:11,040 Yes, and actually I wasn't quite successful trying to explain 1187 01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:12,360 that. I think you and I are saying the 1188 01:13:12,360 --> 01:13:14,440 same thing. So the honest version is. 1189 01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:17,720 But when I look at, you know, someone even coming to me with 1190 01:13:17,720 --> 01:13:20,040 the imposter syndrome as one of the issues they want to 1191 01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:24,360 overcome. Feeling like a fraud is often a 1192 01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:26,800 feature, not a bug. OK. 1193 01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:31,000 Which means that you only feel like an imposter when you're in 1194 01:13:31,000 --> 01:13:36,240 a room, when you feel that you're stretched to get into. 1195 01:13:36,440 --> 01:13:39,320 So people who feel perfectly entitled to where they are 1196 01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:42,520 usually, in my opinion, aren't growing, right. 1197 01:13:43,040 --> 01:13:47,880 So the discomfort is the tax on operating above your previous 1198 01:13:47,880 --> 01:13:50,760 levels or above your what, what you thought to be your 1199 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:54,240 competence levels, right? Which also means that again, if 1200 01:13:54,240 --> 01:13:58,600 I wanted to look at it that way, imposter syndrome tends to make 1201 01:13:58,600 --> 01:14:03,640 people better at the thing that they are insecure about, which 1202 01:14:03,640 --> 01:14:06,800 means that they tend to over prepare, they tend to double 1203 01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:11,320 check, they listen harder in meetings and with, you know, 1204 01:14:11,480 --> 01:14:15,160 taking feedbacks more seriously instead of dismissing it and 1205 01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:18,240 saying, well, I'm a complete product, look at me right, what 1206 01:14:18,240 --> 01:14:22,720 more can I possibly learn? And this is where the Dunninger 1207 01:14:22,720 --> 01:14:27,120 Kruger inverse is. Real competence correlates with 1208 01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:32,040 doubt, and that doubt drives the behaviours that compound into 1209 01:14:32,040 --> 01:14:35,640 more competence, which also means that humility is a 1210 01:14:35,640 --> 01:14:41,480 learning posture and certainty or competence per SE is not. 1211 01:14:41,480 --> 01:14:43,720 It also keeps you decent to other people. 1212 01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:48,200 Let's face it, if you have some degree of impostor syndrome, you 1213 01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:52,000 tend to read the room, you tend to assume others you know know 1214 01:14:52,000 --> 01:14:56,280 things that you don't and avoid the kind of confident, you know, 1215 01:14:56,280 --> 01:15:00,400 steam steamrolling that wrecks teams and conversations. 1216 01:15:00,800 --> 01:15:05,640 And so again, for me, it's not a good or bad thing. 1217 01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:08,000 You can look at it through different lenses. 1218 01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:11,640 But yeah, of course mindset plays a big part because if if 1219 01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:15,080 you had that, you know, a grotesque mindset that you're a 1220 01:15:15,080 --> 01:15:18,120 complete product, well then then you have done, you have outdone 1221 01:15:18,120 --> 01:15:20,960 your learning curve that there's nothing really you can learn. 1222 01:15:21,160 --> 01:15:23,400 And that in itself is is not a good sign. 1223 01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:29,200 Amazing. So have you actually seen AI and 1224 01:15:29,200 --> 01:15:33,720 digital transformation increase leadership pressure for 1225 01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:36,680 executives and how should they respond? 1226 01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:41,280 Of course, I mean, it's another one of those unknowns if you are 1227 01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:45,640 not a deep technical expert and and everyone is looking at you 1228 01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:49,200 to come up with the brilliant solutions that you know, they're 1229 01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:51,640 also waiting for it. But for me, again, it's not 1230 01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:55,160 necessarily about having the deep technical competence. 1231 01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:58,640 I mean, if every executive had to develop deep technical 1232 01:15:58,640 --> 01:16:02,600 competence on every trend that comes the way they, they would 1233 01:16:02,600 --> 01:16:05,360 never finish their learning and they would still be stuck in 1234 01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:08,520 some formal university degree and training. 1235 01:16:08,520 --> 01:16:11,640 So again, it, it comes back to what I said before, which is, 1236 01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:16,000 you know, if you are open enough, if you have a learning 1237 01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,280 curve where you don't consider yourself to have all the answers 1238 01:16:19,600 --> 01:16:21,440 to all the questions that are coming your way. 1239 01:16:21,840 --> 01:16:27,040 If you work with people who do are deep subject matter experts 1240 01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:31,200 and help you to prepare those decisions in a more meaningful 1241 01:16:31,200 --> 01:16:34,760 way, that's all you need to do. And of course, you, you know, as 1242 01:16:34,760 --> 01:16:37,280 we say, you need to start drinking your own champagne. 1243 01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:41,120 I mean, how many times have I seen that in HR where we, you 1244 01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:44,200 know, some of the better initiatives that we rolled out, 1245 01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:46,640 whether it was an ERP implementation or something 1246 01:16:46,880 --> 01:16:50,000 technologically related. You, you experiment with it 1247 01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:53,560 first with your own population before you start to roll it out 1248 01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,120 into the wider organization. And those critical learnings 1249 01:16:57,120 --> 01:17:01,520 must be embedded in the final rollout of the tool or whatever 1250 01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:03,760 the solution is before you do that. 1251 01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:08,920 Wow, interesting. So when I look at the data in 1252 01:17:08,920 --> 01:17:14,160 terms of the demographics of this forecast, we have a highly 1253 01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:20,280 educated audience for Refonique. I think I saw that more than 40% 1254 01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:25,600 of the leasters of this forecast have more than a first degree 1255 01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:32,600 and I think about more than 20, about 20%, they're about have a 1256 01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:37,920 master's degree or higher now. But that means that we, we have 1257 01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:41,680 an audience that is predominantly made-up of 1258 01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:46,520 professionals and entrepreneurs. So I'd like for you to speak to 1259 01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:48,880 the founders, to the entrepreneurs, right? 1260 01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:53,960 What can they learn from these corporate executive transitions 1261 01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:57,920 that we have been talking about? Like what are the transferable 1262 01:17:57,920 --> 01:18:02,080 skills, right that they can learn from in terms of 1263 01:18:02,480 --> 01:18:06,240 transitions that can actually help them to save years of 1264 01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,360 costly mistakes? Yeah. 1265 01:18:08,640 --> 01:18:12,680 I mean, look, if they are leading organizations that are 1266 01:18:12,680 --> 01:18:17,360 large enough to have executives hired and working for them, 1267 01:18:17,360 --> 01:18:20,160 well, then the topic applies to them universally, right? 1268 01:18:20,160 --> 01:18:22,880 It's the same thing. And if they haven't quite 1269 01:18:23,040 --> 01:18:26,960 reached that level yet, my advice to them is, and this may 1270 01:18:26,960 --> 01:18:30,480 be a punchline for you, invest in preparedness, not in 1271 01:18:30,480 --> 01:18:34,200 prediction. That is my ultimate kind of key 1272 01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:36,800 take away that I want to share with them. 1273 01:18:37,200 --> 01:18:41,120 And, and again, Adam, what I really enjoyed our conversation 1274 01:18:41,120 --> 01:18:44,160 and I really hope that this was what you had in mind when you 1275 01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:46,800 reached out and said, let's, let's have a have a podcast 1276 01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:50,080 recording together. Oh, wow, amazing, amazing. 1277 01:18:50,080 --> 01:18:53,320 And of course, you know, we had the number one, number one 1278 01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:59,120 feature is #1 ranked features in the world on the podcast a few 1279 01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:02,360 weeks ago. And it's like you guys are 1280 01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:05,320 saying the same thing. She talked about preparedness 1281 01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,440 instead of predictions. And this is the number one 1282 01:19:09,440 --> 01:19:11,720 futurist in the world. Futurists are known for 1283 01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:17,040 predicting future trends, right? So preparedness is actually very 1284 01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:18,440 important. And of course, you know, we 1285 01:19:18,440 --> 01:19:22,680 appreciate that. So before we let you go, I 1286 01:19:22,680 --> 01:19:26,000 definitely we need to do a part to you because we, we've had a 1287 01:19:26,000 --> 01:19:28,960 lot to to speak about. And of course, we have a lot of 1288 01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:32,000 value to still provide to the audience, right? 1289 01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:36,040 So before we let you go, we we do have a tradition, right? 1290 01:19:36,040 --> 01:19:40,120 Like you tell me what name you would like to see on the 1291 01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:43,560 podcast. I mean, one name I can recommend 1292 01:19:43,560 --> 01:19:46,640 to you because I found him quite interesting is a gentleman 1293 01:19:46,640 --> 01:19:52,720 called David Pope and he's a communications and presence 1294 01:19:53,280 --> 01:19:57,520 trainer and guru. So if you if if you have an 1295 01:19:57,520 --> 01:19:59,800 audience that is interested in how they can enhance the 1296 01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:03,680 presence and the voice and the whole thing, I think that's 1297 01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:06,280 that's going to make for a very interesting conversation. 1298 01:20:07,200 --> 01:20:09,880 Wow, interesting. So you know the guy, you can 1299 01:20:09,880 --> 01:20:11,920 invite him. So what guy should should should 1300 01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:13,320 I invite? Give me a name to. 1301 01:20:13,320 --> 01:20:14,840 Invite. Yeah. 1302 01:20:14,920 --> 01:20:15,840 David Pope. I know him. 1303 01:20:15,840 --> 01:20:17,080 Yeah. I'm happy to make an 1304 01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,960 introduction on your behalf. OK, amazing. 1305 01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:22,400 But what guy is it that you don't know? 1306 01:20:22,480 --> 01:20:24,080 That you think I should reach out to you? 1307 01:20:25,120 --> 01:20:31,560 That I don't know. Well, maybe some deep AI expert, 1308 01:20:31,560 --> 01:20:35,440 someone who has been in the machine room training those 1309 01:20:35,480 --> 01:20:41,040 algorithms on what they are capable of that you know, may or 1310 01:20:41,040 --> 01:20:45,240 may not be as as known as Sam Oldman or someone of that 1311 01:20:45,240 --> 01:20:47,360 nature. Oh wow, interesting. 1312 01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,120 You know what? I have had somebody that fits 1313 01:20:50,120 --> 01:20:54,160 that same description on the broadcast and they leave in your 1314 01:20:54,160 --> 01:20:56,800 neck of the woods. So I think I might make an 1315 01:20:57,000 --> 01:20:59,640 introduction. His name is Doctor Elias Meno, 1316 01:21:00,640 --> 01:21:06,680 very, very brilliant Russian, Polish AI experts. 1317 01:21:06,680 --> 01:21:10,040 I think you, you'd, you'd love that introduction. 1318 01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:12,200 Please just remind me after the port. 1319 01:21:12,440 --> 01:21:15,040 So quick fire route questions, right? 1320 01:21:15,040 --> 01:21:18,560 So quick questions. Just give me the quickest answer 1321 01:21:18,560 --> 01:21:23,120 you can give me. So #1 would be what is your best 1322 01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:26,440 leadership book? Yeah, it's a it's a it's not a 1323 01:21:26,440 --> 01:21:28,800 new book, but I loved reading that book. 1324 01:21:28,800 --> 01:21:32,240 It's called the Coaching Habit by Michael Bunge Stanier. 1325 01:21:32,240 --> 01:21:35,680 What I loved about the book is it's written for a non coach 1326 01:21:35,680 --> 01:21:38,640 audience. And so this book really teaches 1327 01:21:38,640 --> 01:21:41,960 you as a leader, as a line manager, if you wanted to use 1328 01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:45,480 the instrument of coaching more often without necessarily 1329 01:21:45,480 --> 01:21:49,800 training to become a coach. The Coaching Habit is your must 1330 01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,640 read book. The coaching habit by. 1331 01:21:53,360 --> 01:21:56,520 Michael Bunge's tenure. Thank you. 1332 01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:58,360 What would you say is the most underrated? 1333 01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:01,720 Skill. The most underrated executive 1334 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,120 skill. Humility. 1335 01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:08,080 Amazing humility. I knew it had to be a soft 1336 01:22:08,080 --> 01:22:11,960 skill. So AI, do you see it as an 1337 01:22:12,000 --> 01:22:17,480 opportunity or as a trek? Where does AI see it in the 1338 01:22:17,480 --> 01:22:22,440 analysis on boards? Can be both, depending on your 1339 01:22:22,440 --> 01:22:26,400 worldview and your attitude towards technology innovations. 1340 01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:34,760 OK, so #4 is what is the biggest leadership myth that you 1341 01:22:34,760 --> 01:22:38,080 disagree with? The 1st 90 days is enough to on 1342 01:22:38,080 --> 01:22:41,080 board at the executive level. OK. 1343 01:22:41,080 --> 01:22:45,000 And of course, last but not the least, what is one word for 1344 01:22:45,000 --> 01:22:47,000 leadership? That is one word that defines 1345 01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:51,560 great leadership, and why that's word is above the authors. 1346 01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:56,200 Wow. I mean, for me, it would be, 1347 01:22:57,480 --> 01:23:01,880 unsurprisingly, TQ or transition intelligence that that for me 1348 01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:04,360 really defines the cream of the crop. 1349 01:23:04,520 --> 01:23:07,480 Because again, you could have done this several times over, 1350 01:23:07,480 --> 01:23:10,960 not exactly knowing how and why you were successful before. 1351 01:23:10,960 --> 01:23:15,080 But if you're able to articulate that, if you're able to be an 1352 01:23:15,080 --> 01:23:19,520 inspiration to your peers, be a mentor to others who want to, 1353 01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:21,880 you know, learn more about this and how they can be more 1354 01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:25,520 successful, that for me, is the real ultimate leadership 1355 01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:31,400 quality, I guess. I'm basin I do not disagree with 1356 01:23:31,400 --> 01:23:33,880 you from me to you, it's a very big thank you. 1357 01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:37,360 I always say it is that gratitude is good attitude and 1358 01:23:37,360 --> 01:23:39,640 when a person shares their time with you, they share their life 1359 01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:42,960 with you because the SI unit measuring life this time. 1360 01:23:43,120 --> 01:23:47,800 So love and massive respect to you for joining us today for the 1361 01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:52,000 insides, you know, gives you wealth of knowledge that you 1362 01:23:52,000 --> 01:23:55,360 shared today, right? It is super, super amazing. 1363 01:23:55,360 --> 01:23:58,640 And of course, to the audience, right, guys, do not forget to 1364 01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:03,560 subscribe, share, like, you know, comment support and also 1365 01:24:04,080 --> 01:24:05,720 always go for something in your life. 1366 01:24:06,000 --> 01:24:09,280 Conceive, believe, strive to thrive and of course, go 1367 01:24:09,280 --> 01:24:11,200 achieve. For me, it's goodbye. 1368 01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:14,400 And of course, back to Naveed. Do you have any final words 1369 01:24:14,920 --> 01:24:19,200 before you leave us today? No, just to say thank you for 1370 01:24:19,200 --> 01:24:23,200 having me on your show and that I can't wait to get my hand on 1371 01:24:23,200 --> 01:24:24,160 the actual episode. Oh. 1372 01:24:25,080 --> 01:24:27,960 Wow, it's just coming to you soon. 1373 01:24:28,240 --> 01:24:29,320 OK. Bye, guys.