You know, I, but I was scared to do it.
I was afraid, you know, I never run a full time company.
I had two kids, I had a mortgage.
The bills kept coming in and, and, but I, I'd met with a buddy
of mine or wasn't a friend of mine at the time, but he also
owned the company and he was kind of similar position.
And I met with him a number of times and meeting with him gave
me a lot of confidence too. There was different exercises
that I did like getting over fear, you know, doing a business
plan. There were a ton of things, you
know, not only it's fine to have confidence, but then you also
had to have data and you have to be able to back it up.
So I, I went through a number of exercises to kind of get me to,
to have the confidence to do it. And that was like a 678 month
process. I wrote a book called the
blueprint, how I kind of figured all this stuff out.
And in it I talked about this is exactly what I did.
I met with other entrepreneurs, I did a business plan, I did a
fear it studying exercise. I did all these things and so
that gave me the confidence. Before we dive back into today's
conversation, I want to share something important.
This episode includes a pay partnership with Better Help, a
platform designed to make starting therapy easier.
I know from my own journey as a leader and entrepreneur that
life can sometimes feel overwhelming.
There are seasons where stress, uncertainty, and pressure build
up, and you need a safe space to process it all.
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facing clinical challenges. It's a space to reflect, grow,
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Visit Betterhub. Dot com forward slash King
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Once again, this is a paid partnership with better help and
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If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best
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Welcome to The Kingdom's podcast, where we share the
stories of extraordinary people and dissect hot, relevant topics
that shape our world. From visionary leaders to
trailblazing creatives, we uncover the mindset, strategy,
and grit behind greatness. Whether it's business, culture,
or personal growth, we ask the real questions.
This isn't just conversation, it's transformation.
The Kingdom's podcast, Your next breakthrough starts here.
Music licensing reimagined your life.
Ladies and gentlemen, you'll once again welcome to the King
James podcast and today I've got will be fighting out of Chicago,
IL Macwortham, Kevin. Barnacle, that's an amazing
intro. I feel like this is like the
Chicago Bulls intro or something.
I love it. Whoa, Chicago Bulls.
That's the basketball team. Yes.
How how you guys did in the NBA? This year we're not so great.
I'm a season ticket holder a long time.
We used to be doing great in the 90s with Michael Jordan.
You might be familiar with but. Yeah, Michael.
Jordan recently. Recently, not so.
Great. Hopefully.
We'll turn it around, yeah. Hopefully, hopefully and let me
see. I've not really been following
the NBA somewhat lately, but the last time I checked, you know
the box. Yeah.
Milwaukee boxer won the on the tournament.
Yeah. Of course.
That's because there's a Nigerian on that team.
Yeah. Yeah, it is.
It's a combo, yeah.
Yeah. Oh, wow.
So you see, your son is a good son.
That's, that's the, that's the reason why he likes you.
Yeah. And if your son loves Yanis,
he's going to like me. So you need, you need to get
yourself to watch this podcast. I will for sure.
I always put him on the car and, you know, he could care less
about listening, but I'll make him listen to it, yeah.
OK, OK. And of course, you know I
prepared your introduction, so please sit back and let me give
you your flowers. So ladies and gentlemen, today I
am joined by a remarkable guest, Kevin Barnacle.
Kevin is a tech entrepreneur, author and founder of Control
Legal technology company. He builds from scratch without
high experience, scaled into one of the fastest growing companies
in the US, and eventually sold not once but twice for millions
to Epic, a global tech giant. He's also an Amazon best selling
author of The Blueprint, starting a successful business
and currently exploring passions in publishing and film
production. From learning leadership on the
job to mastering financial literacy, give a team into
subscription modules and practicing mindset mastery
through meditation and therapy, Kevin's story easily even proves
that you don't need all the answers to start, but you do
need the right mindset to feel strong.
Kevin, welcome to the show. Yeah, you, you're welcome.
That of course, you know, you're always welcome.
It's interesting, you know, reading through your
introduction, right? You actually stand for
everything that The Kingdom's podcast stands for.
And when you look at The Kingdom's broadcast on or
Spotify or Apple podcast, what do you see as the subtitle of a
podcast? It's about growth mindset,
leadership and business insights.
And if that were to be a person? Thank you.
Yeah, I definitely. I read, Yeah, I read the
description of the podcast. I'm like that.
That's exactly what I'm all about as well.
So that is exactly. So tell me, tell, tell me.
I've like, done a good job, you know, curated.
Yeah, you did phenomenal. Good job.
The King. The king of insurance.
You know, it's, it's interesting how life just plays out.
When I started, there's some guy in your neck of the woods who
was telling me you need to create a niche.
You just a generalist, blah, blah, blah.
You cannot make it to the top, you know, without creating a
niche. I'm like, I will discover what
this is about. Don't worry.
And you know, when I be discovered it right, I knew, you
know, when I started, it was about sharing the stories of
ordinary people doing extraordinary things.
And, you know, some people liked it and, you know, some people
were like, Nah, I don't like the idea of being painted as an
ordinary person who's spinning around.
We will spin it around. And, you know, over time, I've
got to discover that what really do I care about?
What really do I care about of growth mindset, leadership and
of course, you know, with my pieces and find this background
of pieces and sites and you know, I started to, you know,
find big minds like yourself from around the world to speak
to these topics. And I only say something.
I have only two goals to achieve with this broadcast.
And those two goals are to educate and to motivate.
If I do that, my job is done. I don't like to stress myself.
Yeah, I love that. I love that you said that too.
And the kind of the pivot of the podcast, and it's something I
actually talk about in my book too, is like running the
business is hard, right? You're running the business and
you've got to do something that not only provides value for
listeners, you're getting good feedback there.
Also something that you're passionate about and that you're
interested in because it is hard running the business and you've
got to have that. You've got to have that base of
being passionate about it to want to push through all the
obstacles because there are a ton of obstacles.
So you know, the fact that you're doing something, you're
getting, you're getting up and talking to folks about the same
topics that you're passionate about, that they're passionate
about. That's how you persevere through
the hard time. So good for you.
Absolutely. Thank you very much.
And of course, you know, at the risk of sounding like a broken
record, there's something that I always say that an attitude of
gratitude is good attitude. I'm grateful to you to have you
on the forecast today. And I always say that anytime a
person shares their time with you, they share their life with
you. But press the SI unit for
measuring life as time. So I'm really grateful for your
time. I do not take it for granted at
all. Yeah, same, same with you.
Thanks for having me and thank you for.
It's good having great minds like you.
Think about it like 30 years ago. 30 years ago, these kind of
things were not possible. I'm grateful for for technology
and AI, you know, making these kind of interactions possible.
Tapping into the video, I'm not I see myself as not very young.
I'm not very old. I'm just like the sweet sport
after the three years old millennial growing up, I used to
read, you know, my dad had, you know, this really massive
library. And I was introduced to
philosophy and psychology very early in life, reading the works
of, you know, great minds like Aristotle, Socrates, even
contemporary philosophers like Bertrin Grossel, Winston
Churchill. A lot of people don't realize
that Winston Churchill actually won a Nobel Prize for
literature, like indeed, Veteran Wassell as well.
I read their books and I used to wish how I wish I could, you
know, have a verbal discussion, you know, some of these great
minds. Yeah.
And I think I was born at the right time to grow up at the
right time to do this. Yeah.
Right. Yeah, because back then you
wouldn't have been able to talk to them, right?
They're very unlikely. Yeah.
Cool. So I'm privileged, you know, to
be able to speak with the great minds, you know, like yourself
across the world. But you know, talking about
business, you actually builds control without any prior text
that of experience. What gave you that courage to to
take that leap? You know, it's a constant leap
into entrepreneurship. Yeah.
You know, I was, my whole background was in sales and
there's probably no more entrepreneurship type of job in
corporate America than being in sales.
You really, there's a lot of things that are on you.
You got to wake up and you know, at least the roles that I was in
go find opportunities anyway. So I learned, I felt like I
learned a lot about business being in sales from finding
customers, keeping customers, building a business, making it
profitable, all those type of things.
And I was the number one sales guy at this company and, and we
were selling software to to lawyers for them to help them
deal with lawsuits and investigations.
So they there be a lawsuit they had to go through, look through
a bunch of emails and we would sell them the tool and then they
wouldn't have a lawsuit for a couple months and all of a
sudden they would have a lawsuit and they would forget how to use
the tool. They'll call me as the sales guy
saying I need help, I need help. And I wasn't really supposed to
be helping them with the tool. That was for another team, but I
would kind of give them some advice or get people to help
them. And this happening over and over
and over and over. ANYWAYS, so I knew there was a
market opportunity, right? So that's what I would say to
any entrepreneurs like start with what is the market
opportunity and make sure that people actually care about what
you're doing. I knew that they care because
they kept coming to me and I was trying to find companies out
there that could help them and there was really none or they
were doing a bad job. So I was always very
entrepreneurial, you know, minded.
I always want to run my own company, but I was just about
your age. I had two young kids.
I was married. My wife didn't work at, you
know, I was, it was a high paying job and but I felt like,
man, there's someone has got to do this business and it, there's
no one better to do with me. And that the confidence I had
was, I've always been a kind of a confident person because I
know I, I work hard, I try hard, I care a lot.
So, you know, I, but I was scared to do it.
I was afraid, you know, I never run a full time company.
I had two kids, I had a mortgage.
The bills kept coming in. And, and, but I, I'd met with a
buddy of mine or wasn't a friend of mine at the time, but he also
owned the company and he was kind of similar position.
And I met with him a number of times and meeting with him gave
me a lot of confidence too. There was different exercises
that I did like getting over fear, you know, doing a business
plan. There were a ton of things, you
know, not only it's fine to have confidence, but then you also
had to have data and you have to be able to back it up.
So I, I went through a number of exercises to kind of get me to,
to have the confidence to do it. And that was like a six, 7
eighth month process. I wrote a book called the
Blueprint, how I kind of figured all this stuff out.
And in it I talked about this is exactly what I did.
I met with other entrepreneurs. I did a business plan, I did a
fear it, studying, exercise. I did all these things.
And so that gave me the confidence.
I was still afraid to do it, but I did it, you know, and the
courage. And then the minute I did it, I
knew it was the right decision. Wow, the right decision.
You know, talking about you having that relationship with
your friend reminds me of what the Bible sees as ion sharpened
ions too. Shot by Chaplin, the continent
of fighting brethren. You know, it's very important to
what I say, associate and fraternize with people of like
minds and like goals, like directions in life.
And of course, you know, to our audience, I hope you're picking
up on this, right? So I remember when I was going
to start the podcast, there are people who did not understand
the dream. And you know what they there's?
There's always gonna be funnier, though.
Yeah, that. Always does discourage me
because like, oh your finance guy?
What's the finance guy looking for in the world?
Media. Yeah.
Let's have a conversation today with global top 2.5% today and
you know. You know, yeah, it's all
Congrats. Yeah, that's great.
Now there's always people, you know, there's there's always
doubters, there's always haters. You know, I don't know how many
people told me I was crazy. You know, they're like, you're
making all this money. You're we've got a pretty easy
job. Wouldn't you don't start your
own company. I thought about starting my own
company. I never do it.
They were, this is things that they were saying to me.
I don't so many people and I was like, they don't know.
They don't know what's going on in my brain.
They don't know what I'm capable of.
I'm not going to listen to them. And and it's also like one of
the better pieces of advice that I think I've just cultivated in
my own mind is don't ever take the advice of someone who hasn't
done what you're doing right. I can't guarantee those people
at a podcast, right? None of those people in a
pocket. Like what?
Why would I care about your opinion?
Yeah, and yeah, you're right. You're what I'd like to see.
I'd like to tell people that the best part of your opinion is the
fact that your opinion does not count.
That is the best part of your opinion.
I like that, no. That's good, right?
It, it's crazy. You know what?
You just reminded me of something.
I saw something on LinkedIn yesterday and it sort of baffled
me. I think this person is an XC
suite executive and they must probably be in there in their
50s or 60s. And this guy dropped a post that
he's been job hunting for the past nine months and that, oh,
he, he's done really, really high profile, you know, jobs,
high profile organizations, international organizations,
being it being called CEO and, you know, for certain
organizations. And, you know, he's unhappy.
He's unable to get a job for the past nine months.
And my head, I'm like, what happened to entrepreneurship?
Why are certain people so conditioned in their minds that
you have to be on the bygone that was greeted by another
person? Right, right.
Yeah. Why?
Don't you create something for yourself with so much experience
and expertise? Yeah, You know, I, I don't know,
I think probably a lot of it is how you're raised, you know, and
I mean, education's a big part of it.
I think most people are told get a good education, get a good
job, go on to management, try to move up the corporate ladder.
And I had no interest in doing any of that.
Like I saw those people that were 50 and 60 and had worked
their asses off for these companies and then all of a
sudden they're gone and they can't get another job right or
whatever. And I remember thinking, I do
not want to be that person. I don't want to be that person
who's 5560, you know, maybe 10 years away from retirement,
can't get another job or whatever.
I had no interest in doing that. And then it was a matter of, OK,
how, how do I make it happen? And so when I saw that market
opportunity, I took it. But I think you know, you're
either working on your dream or you're you're working to help
someone else achieve their dream.
Right. For me, I was like, I know how
it our work. I know how talented I I was and
AM and the things that I'm good at.
I'm not great at everything, but some things I'm very good at.
And I was like, I rather, you know, see the rewards of that.
I don't mean you were talking about reaping.
You reap what you sow I'd rather reap those rewards that I've
sowed and not someone else reap those rewards.
And there's a trade off to that. Of course, it's hard, you know,
there's a lot of challenges of running a company, but it's
absolutely worth it. And it's really comes down to
knowing yourself and your own personality, right?
That some people, they want a place to be, go somewhere and be
told what to do every day. And there's nothing wrong with
that. That's not me, it's not you.
But there are people like that. I think they're crazy
personally, but hey, to each their own.
And I don't know how they were raised.
I don't know anything about them.
And and that's also like why I don't take people's opinions
like you were talking about, like they don't know me.
I don't know them, they don't know me.
You go, do you? I'm not going to worry about
you. But yeah, I think it's a lot of
it's conditioning, a lot of it's people being told that's the
safe route and they believe it. And for me, it just, I don't
know. I've always been kind of
rebellious and contrarian, but I had no interest in doing that.
The interesting part is that they also think you're crazy.
So yeah, right is crazy. Yeah, well, I think we're all
crazy, everyone. We're just now we're human
beings. We're just totally flawed
running around. We're all trying to figure it
out. And you're on this, you know,
plan it for such a short period of time.
It's like, why not go after your dreams?
Why not see what you're capable of?
You know, it's like I talk about my book.
There's the whole Maslow hierarchy of needs right in the
top of the pyramid. It's self actualization.
Like it's innate us to want to know what we can actually
achieve. If you're at a corporate
America, you don't know that you're not going to get every
opportunity you want to be. There's only one person is going
to be the CEO who's going to be at the top of that pyramid.
And you know, you a lot of times you don't know what you're
capable of when you're when you're an entrepreneur, you find
out what you're capable. Of real quick you.
Know, like all of a sudden, you know, you thought a podcast two
years ago, now you're in the top 3%, right?
So you're finding out. You're finding out.
You find it out like and I like that song.
If you are what you see you are. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like I love that song. Like if you are what you say you
are, Yeah. That that.
Yeah. Entrepreneurship is Oh yeah,
prove. It that's yeah, prove it.
Because Oh yeah, prove a job there is.
Because the market, the market speaks man, you know the market
always wins. Yeah.
And of course, speaking to what you say about the market speaks
I when I advise people, especially upcoming
entrepreneurs like myself, I tell them you don't sell what
you want to sell, you sell what the market wants to buy.
It's simple. Market forces demand and supply,
right? I've been sales my whole my
whole career. You I never sold anyone
anything. You know, I always understood
what they were trying to accomplish and then figure out
whatever I could do to help them, you know, whatever
products I had, whatever services I had.
But you're not going to like if someone doesn't want, you know,
a Droid phone over an iPhone, you're not going to convince
them or it's very unlikely or it's not worth the effort.
It's better to understand that person, their situation and and
then try position whatever you have to help them that that's
all sales is and and same with the market, right?
You're either increasing pleasure or you're decreasing
pain. That's what every product is.
It really is. It's that simple.
So go find people's pains and decrease them and in problems
and solve them, and you'll find what they like doing and enhance
that experience and you'll still sell.
Yeah, exactly. You know, you need to speak to
people's pain points, right? And somehow lengths in
economics, you know, from first degree this money is a store
value. And if money is a store value,
it means people will give it to people who offer them perceived
value. Yeah.
So as long as you master the art of creating value, you will
definitely get money. And you know, people don't like
to be sold to. People like to buy to meet their
needs 100. Percent.
Right. So if you are telling somebody
what they don't want or they don't need, they sticky like
why, why are you pushing it? You're you're pushing your lock.
Yeah. No, that's exactly right.
That's it. That probably is, yeah.
But you know, you actually build control like without, you know,
the whole experience in tech, right?
And leadership actually, you know, comes or would I say
improves over time with experience, right?
And of course you, you never had managed anyone before finding
that company. So what were like some of the
hottest leadership? Yeah, you know, I think.
Since you learned, you know, yeah, you know, trial and error.
Yeah, yeah, a lot of trial and error for sure.
I mean, a lot of it in the beginning was, you know, I'd
never manage anyone. We grew really fast.
I had 10 employees by the end of year 1.
And I don't know, because I didn't have a lot of experience
managing people. I just always thought people
were like me and I worked a lot. I was hard.
Yeah, I, I was a hard worker.
I took things very serious. I had attention to detail.
And I remember a couple people that came in early and they were
not like that. And I would bark at them.
I'd be like, what are you doing? Yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
You got to do this, that and whatever.
And I'm like. And then I remember meeting with
my mentor and I was like, you know, I feel like I don't even
want to hire people because I can just do it better.
And he was like, of course you can do it better.
But and you're going to care more about your business, but
you have to figure out the stuff that you're not any good at and
then outsource it to those folks and then let them be, let them
figure out they're not going to be like you.
And that's OK because there's probably a lot of things you
were not good at either. So I think the biggest thing was
trying to hire for need and realized that I had to give them
autonomy and that's what I wanted to write.
I the the best bosses I ever had were kind of let me do my own
thing. But I think it was the, the, the
error in the beginning was trying to fit them to do things
like I did things versus how they did things.
And then how I got better at it was just, you know, a finding
really good talent that helps because then I don't worry about
telling them what to do because they already know what to do.
So I always kind of found a plus talent paid them well versus
trying to coach up people. I was found people experience.
That was something that worked for me.
And, you know, just really trying to see it from their
perspective, you know, not being so reactive, trying to listen
more instead of talking. That was a lot of the things I
learned with with folks and and giving them space and, you know,
giving them opportunity. So that those are the big things
is just, you know, not forcing them to do things the way I
wanted them done. Let them figure it out on their
own, but measure the results more than the process.
I love the way you talk about hiring A+ talent, but there's
something that I like to say, and I think I said this on the
podcast before, it's gonna have talent, right?
But hard work beats talent when talent does not work hard. 100%
and. I have a problem with when I
say, coping with or trying to teach people the right attitude.
I don't know, I'm a young entrepreneur myself, right?
But I think it's quite difficult or maybe almost impossible
teaching people the right attitude, right?
Because how do you teach a person to be hungry?
How do you teach a person to be determined?
How do you teach a person to be ambitious?
How do you teach a person to go above and beyond, right?
You can give a person a task, right?
Give them a deadline and they might come to you and just to
trust enough, right? How do you teach them the fact
that you need to consciously, actively find ways to become
more efficient at whatever it is that you do?
How do you teach them that you have to be innovative, right?
And, you know, keep up with current trends, right?
And of course, you know, in the tech industry, you can attest
this. Sometimes you you're working on
a particular research and another company has done that
research and has put that product in the market.
And whatever you're working on becomes sort of obsolete.
And you need to probably have an add on to that service or that
product line in order to make it relevant, right?
How do you teach people attitude?
For me, yeah, I think I struggle with that, but I'd like to.
Yeah, I don't. I don't know that you do.
I mean, I think you struggle with it because I don't know
that you do. I think it's more about finding
people that already have it and that is in your interview
process. You know, I mean, we used to
have a saying that if we have to manage you, we're going to
manage you out of the organization, Meaning you want
to find leaders, right? You want to find people with
that hunger. You want to find people with
that determination and that grid.
And I don't know that is something that you can teach
them you they can observe someone doing it.
But when you're in a company, especially like ours is a, you
know, fast growing tech company, we didn't have a lot of time to
be teaching people. We, we needed people that
already knew and bring them in and then give them opportunity.
But I've, I'll tell you one thing that just made me think of
that is, you know, I, the company that I was from EMC and
I know a lot of companies and, and the tech space do this is
they would look and I did one of your other guests talk about
this the the Flickr guy or clicker, Sorry, I can't remember
the name of his company. Sun Tepper a tiker.
Yeah, yeah. But he thought about this.
But it's about athletes, you know, finding athletes and a lot
of athletes and have a lot of those attributes already.
So like one of my first questions, when I was being
recruited to go work for this company called EMC, they were
like, what high school sports did you play?
I was like, I was not expecting that.
You know, I was like, huh. And and I did play high school
sports. So I talked about that.
And but it's because those people that played those sports,
they usually are hungry, they are competitive, They have a lot
of that attitude, you know, properties that you want, right.
And those things get, do get instilled as a kid through
sports. So it is kind of a little bit of
a hack to say, do you have some of these things?
Not everyone probably played sports has those things.
But I talked about it in my book.
I would ask, how competitive are you?
That was one of my favorite question.
And if they would smile before they even were saying anything,
I knew I was going to hire them because they're like, Oh yeah.
So are you going to hire me now? Because I was smiling when
you're saying that. Now, but like some people like
get scared. They're like, oh.
Shit, how do I? Start writing for my language.
But Oh no, how do I answer this versus if they are competitive,
they're like, all right, let's go, you know, and, and most
people are competitive, obviously at least anyone's
achieved anything in their life. But that that was a good hack to
finding those that are already like have that attitude versus,
like you said, teaching them. I don't know how you teach them.
I mean, I would tell them to go read a bunch of books that
helped me along my way. And you know, there's a bunch of
podcasts are things you can do, but you've got to, you know, I,
I'm not going to hire someone that I have to teach attitude.
They better have it. And you know, the sad part is
this right before I get to the sad part, I've tried that
approach, you know, even that certain book, certain materials,
okay, go read this or read that. They don't add really anything.
Wait. Yeah.
No, no, totally. It's like you wish your tag.
Yeah, no, unless, no, it's kind of funny because I, I actually
forced my my new employees to read one book.
There was one book I forced them to read and I just did it with
my daughter too. And she was like, I don't, you
know, she's going to college. She didn't really want to read
this book. I'm like, well, if you don't
read it, I'm not paying for tuition, so you better read the
damn book. But it is, you know, it's
whatever. It's how to win friends and
influence people. It's my favorite book and and
that. Was a great that was the first
book I bought with my own money. Really.
Oh yeah, Dale Carnegie. That's my favorite book of all
time. And the art of public speaking,
Yeah. Yeah, I have both of those.
I actually have like I can pull it up at some point.
It's over there, but I've got like a fourth edition copy of
that book like from the sitting on my desk right over there.
But I love that book. And but anyways, that is a when
you own your own company, you can force them to do some
things. And that was the one that was
the one book I would, and this is for younger employees.
This wasn't like, you know, someone's coming and later in
the career. I'm not forcing anyone, but I
had a couple, we we did decide at some point to hire some kind
of junior engineers and and they didn't have the best people
skills. I could just tell.
And I'm like, you got to read this book.
So and they all, you know, I don't know if they're be asking
me, but they all seem to say like, hey, thank you for making
that. That actually was helpful.
I get it, you know, da, da, da, da.
So. But anyways, yeah, so you're
right not as they won't read it. And it's, it's not like you're
wasting your time. So I'll figure something out.
I'll figure something out. But you know, the sad part is,
you know, when you have those ones, you know, with the right
attitude and with the right talent, the turnover is very
high. The need for better
opportunities is very fast. How, how?
How do you do? Well, you have, well, you know,
we actually did a pretty good job of keeping our talent.
I mean, a, an easy way to do is pay him more than the market's
paying. That's one of the things that I
did. I was like, you know, I I would
rather hire less people and pay them more than the opposite.
So, you know, a lot of people in the running business, they want
to say, Oh, I have this many hundreds employees.
Like I didn't care. I'm like, I want to keep it as
small as possible, but I want to really, really good people.
So I would poach people from like sometimes our customers and
you know, they'd be making, I'll just, you know, say some rough
numbers making $100,000 to some corporate job.
I'd say I'm going to pay you 130.
And you know, they would come in and they would get other
benefits and I would like, hey, I don't care.
I'll pay above market rate because we were moving fast.
We needed experts. I, I knew when I found the right
people, I was willing to pay them.
So that helps, you know, we didn't lose a lot of people.
We would then give them structures and incentives that
were aligned with the company goals for them to make more
money to no matter what their role was.
But yeah, you know, you're always going to have people
poaching talent. But if you give them upside
like, you know, stock options, things of that nature, when
you're an entrepreneur, you can give them, there's creative
things you can do being the boss and being entrepreneur to kind
of keep people around. Yeah, I feel like that equity
stake actually has a big way of motivating people.
Yeah, the golden handcuffs. Correct.
The golden handcuffs. Yeah.
That that's that's a treat. That's a very, very fantastic
trick around keeping these people.
So. But then, you know, you had zero
accounting background and you educated yourself and worked
with accountants. So what's the most important
financial principle you think every founder should master Very
early? Yeah, you know, I that was the
thing I was more intimidated by when I started my company is
because, you know, I did like my family personal accounting and I
talked about this in my book too, but it's like I, I was
like, man, I don't know anything about accountants.
I, you know, accounting. I don't, I've never, you know,
done a general Ledger or anything.
So I read a ton of books. All of them are kind of boring,
you know, but I like accounting one O 1 books and then and you
know, I talked about it. I, I really recommend people
outsource that function. I know that's something that you
do right? You're a fractional CFL, but for
real. Bring them my way.
My company would do that. It's.
Great. Well, that's actually my advice
in the book is get a fractional CFO.
And if you don't know it, like I didn't know, I didn't care to
know it. I wanted to know it to be
informed and to have good dialogue, but like I didn't want
to be an accountant at all. And it was like one of my
weaknesses. And so I hired a a fractional
CFO outsource, you know, small consulting company.
The guy was amazing. He taught me a ton.
And then I would say, you know, you got to understand the P and
LS. The biggest thing, you know, in
my opinion, for a young entrepreneur and and keep costs
down and you know, it's not necessarily an accounting
principle. What?
I would just keep costs down solo.
You know, I didn't take a salary myself.
I didn't bring out a full time kind of W2 employee until like 8
months in and I was just paying people's contractors.
You know, I waited too long to hire people, but it helped me
sleep at night. And then at the end, especially
if you're looking to sell your company, you really got to
understand GAP principles. That was not something I
understood. I learned real quick, you know,
I went through the cold quality of earnings thing with selling
the company and it's a bunch of really smart accountants in the
room and I'm like, I'm just going to shut up and let my
fractional CFO do his work. But you know, I, I would say
this with accounting, for those of you out there listening that
are like me and didn't have a lot of accounting experience,
it's scary. Like accounting and law.
Those are two of the scarier things with selling, with
running a company. Outsource them, you know, and
you'll figure it out. It's not that complicated.
It's just like a different language, you know, you got to
learn, learn how it works. But really at the end of the
day, a business really just money coming in, money going
out. So it's not that more
complicated. And so just making sure that you
can control what you can control in the beginning, that's money
going out. You can control how much money
is going out in the organization.
You can't always control how much is coming in.
So that's what I would say from accounting principles
perspective. Why you just said I'm gonna
summarize it. Revenue is vanity, profit is
sanity, and cash is king, if you wish.
Cash is reality. You know, profit says that
you're winning in the game of business.
That's right. And cash flows determines how
long you can stay the business. That's right.
So make with that information whatever you wish to make with
it. So you're actually successfully
transitioned, you know, from project based services to
subscription model. I love subscription model
revenue a lot though. And of course you use Caraca to
the growth. So can you walk us through how
that came about and what was the impact?
Yeah. You know, I think it was like
year 4 or five. I was, you know, we've gotten a
lot of interest from companies investing in US and even
potentially purchasing the company.
And I, you know, was trying to understand that whole game,
right? Like if you sell the company and
I really learned a lot about you know, so any Long story short, I
made the Inc 5000, my company makes the Inc 5000.
I talked to a couple private equity companies and venture
capitalists and they all were really honing in on the amount
of recurring revenue that we had.
And I had a decent sense of it, but a lot of our stuff was
products. So like an example, you know, a
customer has a new software system that in their environment
they want us to configure out, we'd say, hey, it's $15,000, we
go in there, we get it done in a week and then we're gone.
And then they pay us and then maybe they'll call us later on
if they have problems or we would try to outsell them other
stuff. But that's, that's it, right?
It's one and done versus when I learned more about the
reoccurring revenue subscription model, I was like, you know, a,
not only does it make it you more valuable from a, you know,
selling the company, but it makes you a lot more valuable to
the customer if you've got something that you can annually
provide to them. So I just sat down and thought
through, OK, how can I actually turn these projects and these
other things that we were doing into, you know, annual
contracts? So I kind of made it a no
brainer in the beginning and just said, look, you know, that
same customer, right, $15,000. I'd say, look, we're going to
give you a managed service for the same price, $15,000.
We're going to come in, we're going to do the install and then
for the next 10 months, you're going to have support from us
and we're going to get in the environment.
We're going to proactively take care of the software.
And you know, they'd be like, what's the catch?
You know, do I got to sign up for multiple years?
I'm like, Nope, there's no catch.
I just I'm that confident that you want to re up on the service
in a year from now and it's the same price.
You get, you know, option A is you get work for us for two
weeks and we're gone. Option B is you get to our first
of the whole year. And you know, we were taking
some risks doing that. And like me and you talk before
we jump on, sometimes you got to do stuff for free.
And I would say like 95% of the customers would sign up for it.
They're like, yeah, that sounds like a no brainer.
And then 75% of those customers in year 2 would re up because we
would go above and beyond for these customers.
We would take care of stuff. We got to know them.
We're in their environment doing stuff and they were like, you
know what, I don't want to deal with this crap anymore.
I'll let you guys deal with that.
And then it was just like stacking those customers up.
And then instead of, you know, January 1, we're going, what the
hell are we going to sell this year?
Now we're like, hey, we already got twenty of those customers.
All we got to do is keep them and then add them.
And we can still do those projects if we want to.
We could do other things. So, you know, for me it was
like, this is a no brainer. Why did I not do this sooner?
And it all started with, I read a book called Built to Sell by
John Warlow and he talked a lot about it and that, and that was
more about, hey, this is how you make your, your company more
valuable. But I was like, man, I, this is
making the company easier to run.
So anyways, that's why we did it and it worked.
By the time we sold the company about two years later for the
first time, about 75% of our revenue was recurring versus 40%
two years prior. So which gave us a great
multiple on the on the actual sale.
You know it it, it's beautiful when you have that recurrent
revenue, especially by way of a subscription model about, you
know, in terms of scaling up right?
It, it, it makes it easier as well, right, because you have
that multiplier effect course having multiple customers that
you can service at the same time, right.
And of course, you're keeping up cost as low as possible, but
another strategy that a lot of consulting or service
professional services that companies or firms use is
upselling. So were you guys able to upsell
any of your, would I say food or?
Other service, yeah, because we have software products too.
Yeah, I mean, the beauty of it is when you have a recurring
model and this was more of a managed service, right?
This was a service. We actually had a software
product that we did as well. So we, we would use that managed
service. That's usually how we would get
introduced was through this managed service.
And it was around technologies like Microsoft and, and other,
other companies. And we would get in there and
they're thinking there's going to sign up for a project with
us. They actually sign up for a
man's service. And then, you know, my team
would get to know them, you know, and in this space, we're
taking care of a software that is associated with like, you
know, legal services and, and these lawsuits.
So when then three months later a big lawsuit hits, we're
already managing the software for them.
They have a relationship with the, with my, with my, my
engineer. And they'd say, oh man, I got to
be all weekend doing these searches, running this for the
lawyers. He would say, you know, we do
that as well. And they'd say, oh really?
So then that was another service line that we had that that was,
you know, they could work with our team and we had lawyers and
they could actually go in and do the searches.
And then we would understand about the type of litigation
they would have in the industry that they were in.
And then we had our own software that we built to help them
manage their data proactively. So the next time that this
happens, we can help them as well.
So it was it all kind of started with that one.
And then there was all these add on services that we could do and
some of them were projects, some of them were software
subscriptions, you know with the software subscriptions recurring
revenue as well. And it was just it just built,
you know. So now we've got you know, 4050
of these customers 50 to 100 and that's why our revenue kept
going up. And then we could manage our
expenses a lot easier because we knew, OK, going into the year,
we're going to have 5 million bucks of this recurring revenue,
OK? You know, we had really good
metrics on how much work we were actually doing for those
customers, the profitability. And we're like, OK, we don't
even need to hire that many more people.
We can just tweak some of our, you know, tweaks how we're doing
things. And then profitability starts
going up and you're like, that's when things get exciting.
You're like, OK, now the flywheel spinning.
Yeah, the flywheel, it's very important to be able to like
recognize the the different elements or the components or
the flywheel and of course the activates, you know that engine
at the middle and of course it's just like an automated system.
I love the SAS system, right? The SAS easiness model, you
know, pretty much like the the flagwheel.
But one thing that comes with that fast growth is possible
burnout. Right now it can be quite
exhausting. So how did methods like
meditation therapy help you avoid burnout?
I'm like what? What's your advice, you know, to
young founders like myself, you know, about managing residents
and I'm I'm quite that exhaustion.
Yeah, I mean, I'm quite passionate about this particular
subject. I, you know, it was like year 2
or year three of the company and, and everything was going
well, right? We're having a lot of success,
but I'm working a lot. I typically am working like 14
hour days, you know, and I'm not sleeping a ton because I've got
to get, I got to stay up late and I got to get up early and
you know, things are going, I'm hiring all these people feel
like we're having a lot of success, but I felt like really
low energy. I wouldn't say depressed was the
right word, but just kind of blah.
And I'm like, man, I got to, I got to do something like I'm
just constantly kind of running out of energy and I was still
pretty young and eating well for the most part and exercising.
And it was like year three of the company I met with my same
mentor. I kind of talked about and I'm
like, man, I, I don't know if I can keep doing this.
Like this is a lot. He's like, you don't want to
quit. You're tired and you need a
break. And he's like, you need to go on
vacation And every vacation I take in a couple years prior, I
wasn't really, I was working on the vacation.
My kids were on vacation, my wife's on vacation, but I'm
working. So I was like, I don't care.
I'll burn the house down. I'm going on vacation.
I'm shutting off my e-mail. I'm shutting off everything.
And I've heard a lot of entrepreneurs talk about
meditation and specifically transdental meditation.
And I tried it like the whole lie down on the floor thing.
And I'm like, I, this is not working for me.
And, and I was like, you know, I just, my brains racing and I'm
not calm at all while I'm meditating these things.
And I, I read something that you've got to, you got to give
it a week. You've got to do it every single
day for a week, right? For like 10 minutes, whatever.
So I'm going on vacation. I'm like, here's a perfect
opportunity. I would lie down.
I would like to listen to guided meditation.
And, you know, it still wasn't great.
It was like, you know, you're walking in a forest.
I'm like, OK, it's fine. But it was it, I did feel after
day three like I'm becoming a little bit more relaxed and
focused. And then by the end of that
vacation, we, you know, we full week of it, I'm like, God, I
feel good. I feel energized.
Obviously being on vacation was part of it too and being around
my family, but I felt really, really good.
And I was like, all right, I kept doing that, but then I
wanted to take it to the next level.
So I learned transit lamentation and doing it for 10 years now
every day, first thing I do, I wake up 20 minutes.
I'll probably do it right after this podcast around 3:00 in the
afternoon. I do it and it's a mantra based,
you know, meditation and more than anything, it's not like a
lot of people think of meditation.
They think, you know, oh, I'm going to be like my, my brains
going to be empty and I'm like levitating and like, no, that's
not what it for me. It was getting me.
It was getting me in touch with what was going on with myself,
right. So like you're dealing with a
lot when you're running a business and for me, I'm dealing
with a hundred, a hundred different things.
So sometimes I'd be bothered and I would close my mind and I
meditate and it you real quickly get in touch with yourself,
right? You're like my brain be going,
oh, I can't believe that employee did this.
You know, what a jerk, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. And I'm like, OK, this is what's
bothering me and now I need to go address it.
So that's what really helped with me.
And then I, it would just give me like energy.
Like I would, I'd be tired by around 3:00.
I would meditate. It was like the equivalent of
taking a nap. You know, you take a good nap,
you feel good, you feel refreshed.
And then I'm like, oh, I feel good now.
And now I can be a better husband when I go home.
I've got a couple more hours in me with my team and then I can
have the energy for later on at night.
But meditation is a huge thing, you know, sleeping.
I learned to probably, you know, year 4, I really need to start
focusing on my sleep. That is a much better.
Yeah. But burnout, you know, vacation
scheduling time with friends and family.
Like it's easy to non-stop work and I started scheduling blocks
of time like 3 hours every night with my family where I'm not
working. I might think if I might be
thinking of work every once in awhile, but like you need to do
those things. And then mental therapist, I
went and saw, I started seeing a mental therapist deal with the
stresses of it and. Therapist, I'm really happy you
talking about these and of course, you know, I, I guess
this is the right time right now, right?
Your episode, you are you are a fantastic guest.
And of course your episode is the episode where we break the
good news. We are now partnering with the
world's number one therapy brand and that is better health.
So what a great time. That's awesome, man.
Congratulations, partner with us.
So Better Help is not officially a sponsor of the Key Dips
podcast. And of course, what a way to say
we into you talking about mental therapy.
Yeah, I mean, and I would say, you know, and the nice thing
about Better Health, as you know, is, is it's an online
mental health program, people traveling, etcetera.
I personally have been seeing, you know, a therapist since
before the online thing even existed.
But it's great, right. And, you know, I think sometimes
entrepreneurs probably put too much on their spouse to kind of
be like their therapist, like they come.
Home and untrained, Untrained therapist.
Right. And you know, they might be
having a bad day. They might be dealing with like
my situation, my wife's, the old little kids.
And it was nice to be able to go talk to someone that doesn't
know me, that's not judging me, that has is equipped to be able
to deal with some of these things.
And I joke like I used to just go and complain, you know, like
sometimes I didn't really want to talk to anything.
I just go and complain about my team.
And then I would leave and I'm like, I feel better.
Great. It's out of my system.
So yeah, I'm a huge proponent of therapy.
Congrats on your your partnership with Better Health
and that'd be awesome routine. Thank you very much, brother.
And of course, you know, guys, if you least injure us, therapy
is something that is very, very resourceful, very helpful for
you. I'd be grateful to have a better
help as a sponsor of the King Games broadcast.
And if you use the if you link that is betterhelp.com/king
Games, you will actually get a 10% discount on your first month
of therapy. Therapy is very helpful.
I cannot under emphasize the the importance of the help that
therapy actually does. You know, due to once a mental
health, I've only gone therapy myself.
I have used better help myself and of course, it is actually
very helpful. I don't I don't know what to
say, but really therapy. A lot of people, especially
where I come from, find it when I say difficult to have this
difficult conversations about mental health.
But if you can see a doctor right, for physical health, why
can't you see a trained practitioner for your mental
health? And a good thing about, you
know, better health is the fact that it's online.
You don't have to see the therapies face to face.
Yeah, it's, it's, I would look at it.
I would look at it as coaching too, right?
It's, it's not my experience with therapy.
Being an entrepreneur is not going and talking about all my
problems of childhood, right, or anything like that.
People see in movies. It was OK, here's what I'm
dealing with. You know, how can I balance work
life? How can I, you know, be a better
communicator? You know, like it's there's all
these different tools. And if you're listening this
podcast, reading books, you're already seeking that
information. This is someone that you can
have a personalized one-on-one mentorship and coach with you.
And you know, the nice thing about things like these online
tools is you could try a couple different ones, right?
You don't, you might not jive with the first person you meet,
which is harder to do in person, right?
Meet to drive, to meet all these people and figure all that out.
It's hard, but you can. From the comfort of your phone,
just just read the therapist right?
Yeah. And you know, but yeah, I did a
lot of online therapy during COVID because of course, because
I had to. And it's great, you know, it's
it's anyways. But yeah, I agree.
Thank you very much, brother. So, you know, talking about exit
strategies, by the way, I do have a particular episode on
exit strategies. And of course, the guy I spoke
with talked about that book to to sell.
So you told your company twice. What are the top two or three
things entrepreneurs should prepare for if they hope to sell
their businesses one day? Yeah.
I mean, you better be prepared to know your numbers really,
really well. You should be prepared to talk
about recurring revenue and predictable revenue, right?
That's what they care about. And I would say understand if
you go through a process like I did and you know, I met with
about 10 companies, it's, it's, it's an interesting process.
It's challenging, it's mentally challenging to go through it it
for me, I was kind of explaining like your dream is right here,
right? Like a lot of selling a company
for a lot of people to dream because financial independence,
whatever it is, you know, seeing what the company can go and it's
a roller coaster and you know, like my process is about 100
days, 120 days. And man, it's like if anyone's
ever sold a house and you get a home inspection and it's very
stressful. It's like doing that everyday
for 120 days and they're going to, you know, it's, it's just,
it's a process, right? So having a mental therapist, my
I don't know how I would have gotten selling through my
company without having my therapist.
It was very, very stressful, mentally taxing, exciting as
well and worth it by the way. But just know that you know it.
That actual process is pretty brutal.
You know, tough diamonds don't last, but tough people do.
And the Survivor also like to say that God reserves his
toughest battles for his toughest soldiers.
Yeah, there you go. You're a tough one, you know,
but your book, Let's talk about your book, The Blueprint.
It aligns seven faces, you know, to start in a successful
business. So which of these faces do most
entrepreneurs underestimate? The first one is fear, How to
get over the fear of actually starting a company.
I think that was, you know, looking back at my journey, I
spent a good eight months, you know, kind of really
contemplating starting the business.
And like I said, I in the beginning, I, I was leaving a
high paying job. So that actually made it harder
in some regards. But that process, I look back
and like, man, did I expend a lot of energy on that.
And it's obviously the most important thing because you got
it. You got to make that first step.
You got to take that that leap off the off the Cliff, so to
speak. And then a. 1000 miles begins
with a step. That's right.
It's that first step, right? And overcoming that fear.
And that's, I start off my book talking about it, the exercises
that I did to get over the fear. That's the number one thing
because once you do that, I found the rest of it actually
easier than I expected it to be. I found it easy to be successful
running the business and making profit.
And there's a lot of challenges, but man, that first step was
hard. And so that's why a lot of
reasons why I wrote the book is I wanted I know how I felt about
it at the time. I know the things that I did to
overcome the fear and it without taking that first step in my
life is like, I can't even believe it.
It's my life now. You know, I've been retired
since I'm 45. I get to do whatever I want a
daily basis. None of that happens without
that first step. So that's the biggest thing.
I think people if they're very serious about making it and
they're leaving a kind of situation like I was, it's it's
nerve wracking. So how do you get over that?
That's that's the thing, people under, under.
That I think you need some therapy to get over that.
Yeah. It's like about failure.
Failure and resilience. You know, you're to share a
moment where you thought things might collapse.
And of course, maybe heaven might fall.
The heaven never falls. And how did you turn that
obstacle into an opportunity? Sure.
Yeah. You know, in 2015, we, we've
been kind of running for about, you know, 3-4 years and things
were really good. And most of our business model
was, was, you know, building services and products around
large technology companies and kind of filling in gaps.
And we had two major partners and both of them got massively
disrupted in the same year and that massively disrupted us.
So, you know, we had built our kind of whole company around
these two technologies. The one company was like selling
off and going to sell off this technology.
They didn't care about it anymore.
The other one was kind of like they were getting acquired as
well. And it was just all, they were
very disrupted, which made us very disrupted.
And I kind of was like, oh, and our sales started going down
because customers weren't investing these technology,
weren't sure. And I was like, we've got to
find another partner. We've got to find a different
alley because we're not we, we probably could have milked those
customers and done OK. But you know, I was like, we've
got to find an opportunity here. And I and Microsoft, it kind of
just got into our space and I tried to like reach out and find
out what they were doing, but it was very kind of closed off
group. And I just threw persistence and
resilience. I was like that Microsoft is
going to change this industry. And I just non-stop all day for
months figured out any angle I could to try to get a meeting
with Microsoft. And I was flying to New York on
the maybe the promise of meeting for with someone which that
didn't even happen just to try to get any angle that I could.
And finally got a meeting just through pure persistence and
resilience and made the pitch about why we should be entered
into this program that Microsoft had kind of closed off and got
us into that program. And, you know, and we didn't
know a lot about their technologies.
We didn't, my team was very skeptical, but we got in there
and then we just, you know, took off and then that that part of
the business became our most profitable, our largest part of
the business. Now the company's still running
even though I left and you know, I sold the company, it's like
90% of revenue. And if I wouldn't have just
stubbornly non-stop work to get in this Microsoft program, the
company would would have gone under, I'm sure, or, or
certainly would have been what it became.
So, you know, sometimes when these things, you know, doors
close, the window opens kind of thing, that's the way I looked
at it and it's scary. Well, you just got to do it,
right. It's, it's sometimes it's almost
about survival. And it wound up being the
greatest thing for us. And at the time, it did not feel
like a great thing, you know, that these companies were kind
of going away. It was not a good feeling at
all. But you know, here's this new,
this new company and that we just took off with them and we
got off to an early start. And that's why companies wanted
to buy us. They wanted to get into the
Microsoft space and we were the leaders.
So anyways, but yeah, it's it's those things and you can't
control it. So all you can control is what
you do about it. You cannot control what happened
outside of you where you can control what happens inside of
you. And I love the way you
structured it really beautifully wet.
One door closes. It's it's the opportunity for
another door to to open each of these as human beings, it never
makes sense to us in real time. It never makes sense to us in
real time, but, you know, down the line, you know, after some
months or years and then you get back and you're grateful because
to myself, I'm always grateful that setting opportunities that
I really wanted very, very badly did not come my way because I
ended up, you know, harnessing bigger and better opportunities.
Yeah, I mean that. And everyone has that, right.
You can look back at your life, whether it be a relationship,
whatever, be whatever, you know, and everyone has those moments
in their life where they can look back and say, man, at the
time I was pissed. I didn't get that.
But it wound up being the best thing for you.
And it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't feel great at the
time, but, you know, draw, draw on those past experiences
because, yeah, you never know. You just never know.
You'd never know, you know, you talked about the Maslow's
Hercule weeds right there. And of course, like I told you
very early in life, I was exposed to reading books on
psychology and philosophy. That is, you know, one of my
favorite psychology models because it, it really much, you
know, articulates human desires very to a high level of
precision and, and accuracy. And when I look at that
triangle, I think you, you're actually right up there trying
to get that self actualization. So when I look at you, you're
tired. And of course, now you're
exploring publishing and even film production.
So how important is it for entrepreneurs to pursue
creativity? Passion.
Projects, yeah. I think outside of business.
I think it's great. I mean, you know, for me, I
started the company because I want to be able to control my
future a little bit of control free.
And so I put myself in that position.
So I was, you know, 45 years old and here I am retired and, and I
had all these dreams and, and ambitions as a kid, right.
And I think a lot of it's like going back to what you want to
do as a kid. I always wanted to write a book.
I always wanted to make a comedy movie.
I wanted to be able to do whatever I wanted to do when I
was older and I'm like, I'm going to go do those things like
now I have I worked really hard. I took some risks, you know, had
this with a lot of value for our customers that turn into value
for me. And now I'm going to go do these
things and it it is those that Maxwell hierarchy needs, right?
It's like I felt like I could write a really good book and the
market right now is telling me that that's what I did.
And I felt like I could really make a funny movie and I'm still
working on it. But I feel like that's what the
market will think and it's that self actualization, right?
Like I felt like I could run a successful business.
I did, right. So it's like I felt these
things, I've actualized them. And when you build, when you
have success in one thing, it builds another's right.
Like a lot of people were like a lot of people were like, oh man,
what if you write this book and it bombs?
You know, you're going to be so embarrassed.
I'm like, you know, people said that to me.
And I'm like, I don't, I don't think it's going to bomb because
I, I know I read a lot of business books, blah, blah,
blah. Same thing with this movie.
Like, man, what if it sucks? I'm like, I'm not worried.
About it, If it sucks, I'll do a sequel.
Yeah, I love that. That's funny.
You know that's what I always tell people, right?
Even if it feels I just found another way.
We things don't work, I will keep going.
You can't stop. Yeah, and it's all right.
A lot of these things I'm doing for myself, like the book I
wrote for myself, like I wrote it for the kid that was 32 years
old going through that, right? Like what was helpful for me in
the same thing with this movie, I'm like, I'm making it for
myself. It's a passion project.
So I think it's important for entrepreneurs to scratch those
creative itches because in general I have found I know
hundreds of entrepreneurs, they're all very pretty
creative, right? You get in, be running a
business is a very creative endeavor.
And so I have found that most of them have a lot of interest
outside of, you know, just being running a business, right.
And you know, being being an entrepreneur is a very creative
process. Like you're creating products,
literally, you're bringing on people.
You're you're do you're, you're creating.
So I think naturally for any entrepreneur to have those other
interests is important. I don't think I probably need
even say it that much because I bet they're doing it already.
Like, I'm sure you have creative interests that you do, you know?
I mean, look at your backward setup.
After that, you didn't see more episodes of my podcast, right?
I've had creatives on the forecast.
I've had even musicians on the forecast.
Maybe I did not tell you growing up because I was a skinny kid.
They used to want to believe me. So I go into martial arts.
So I started with Taekwondo, karate, moved to mixed martial
arts. So I've had world champions in
boxing, world champions in MMA, you know, guys in the UFC.
But there's more Cage Warriors. They've all been on this
podcast, you know, and I love, I love mixed martial arts.
Anybody that knows me closely knows 3 letters are very dear to
my heart. That's the UFC and yeah, what
about the country? London.
And I'm there. I was there at the Altar Arena
and at the CA, you know, and, you know, that's something
creative, you know, outside of building the company that, you
know, I'm very passionate about. And even the way to tease, you
know, people on the broadcast is the Brisbane for introduction.
You know, I fused it into, you know, yeah, the the podcast, you
have a big party for your. Hands like this too.
I was like, we're getting into a fight.
This is great. I felt like I was going about
hearing like literally that's what I thought of when you were
the intro. I mean, actually I said the
bulls thing as well, but when I listen to some of your other
episodes, I'm like, man, it's like a Ding, Ding, Ding, let's
go here. And of course, think about it.
Life is actually fine. I think about.
It oh 100%. Oh, we have lots of battles.
Yeah, yeah. No, I I've got a lot of.
Battles. I've got another idea book
that's just going to be called Fight, and that's what it's just
about. Life is going to fight you every
day. Let us collaborate on that one.
And of course you know that. That's why I love working with
athletes. They, they understand.
They understand the concept of teamwork makes a dream work.
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure. If you, if you're doing a team
sport or an individual sport, you know what it means to have
that discipline. Dr. Consistency.
A lot of people tell me and even people that don't really know me
because they've seen my body of work, you know, over time, they
said, how do you manage to be consistent?
You know, even when I was in a corporate world, still putting
on my body of work, like it's a function of commitment, right?
And finding ways to be efficient.
And when you're committed to something, it's really crazy how
much you can achieve over time. It's just like compound
interest. You say I am going to save $1.00
one pound a day for the next, you know, 300 assets or five
days. You'll be amazed with, you know
what you're going to put together.
But people don't have that discipline to be able to stay
committed. And you know, I say, yeah, I
know I'm not need you video with a high IQ.
That's not what really sets me apart is sets me apart is that
ability to stay disciplined and consistent and just cheap in
the, you know, cheap the block every day.
Yeah, it's the only way to do it. 130 episodes Like how?
How did I come from? Yeah, Discipline.
Equal success. Yeah.
I mean, you've got to be disciplined.
You've got to stay committed. You have to have a process
that's just a essential building block of anything being
successful. But you know, that's funny
thing, right? Yeah, I'm going to talk about
this. Yeah, there's a book either
work, right? I'm about to publish a book at
that book is on helping podcasters, you know, to succeed
in this podcasting journey. And I have a podcasting
management service under my company and I had 6 broadcaster
on the management 6. But now we have 5, The five of
them, you're on the Kingdom's forecast.
That's the highest ranked. Global top 2.5%.
We have Guy over CFO global 5%, top 5%.
We have bricks and backs by Stephanie.
That is global top 5%. We have the crews tycoon global
top 10%. And of course, we have business
11 global top 10% or we have one that I'm not going to mention
the name. I think everybody deserves, you
know, their dignity to be protected.
And this was the only person who struggled with consistency,
right, right. And also this person, I don't
like the fact that they weren't faithful about, you know, their
financial commitment to the program, right?
And they thought they could be smart about it.
And you know, which are not like I, I was just laughing behind
because if you're not investing in me, you're investing in
yourself. Right.
Yeah, that's sure changed. That's just stupid.
But yeah. And they are the only ones that
I left behind right now. Yeah, I feel sad for them.
I feel sad for them. You know, back to where you have
a SAS tool and somebody is trying to use that SAS tool,
right, without paying the subscription like.
Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not gonna work. Yeah.
Well, life will teach them plenty of painful lessons.
I feel bad, I feel bad for them. You can lead a horse to the
stream, but you cannot force it to drink.
That's one lesson. I'm learning this word of
entrepreneurship. But like I said previously, it's
hard to teach people attitude. Yeah.
I was just going to say it brings us back to earlier about
like you, you can't teach them. They either have it or don't
have it. And like that's where we used to
say if we have to manage you, we're going to manage you out of
the organization. Like you shouldn't be here,
like, you know, you know, you should be a leader, you should
have those things, you should have those attributes.
So that's, that's part of it is, you know, but it's, it's a
lesson learned for you too, you know, like that's not everyone's
going to be above board with how they act and how they, and, and
that's, that's what I found in, in management and leadership is
once you identify those people, get them out like we would just,
you know, sorry, you're not a good fit.
You know, we used to say, you know, positive attitude,
positive results, you'll love it being here.
Positive attitude, not great results.
Hey, we'll work with you. We'll help you figure it out.
Negative attitude, negative results, you're gone, you know,
and that's going to be the. Cut off.
Yeah, gone. We're not here.
You don't even, you're not, you're not going to last.
You're going to be exposed. So like that last person you
mentioned, that's a negative attitude, negative results,
right. So get out here, you know, just
goodbye. Wow, lots of lessons, you know,
I've been learnt here and of course, I think that's a good
way to segue to the last question I have for you, and
that's about your legacy and impact.
So looking back and of course looking forward, what do you
hope your entrepreneurial journey inspires in the next
generation of of founders? Yeah, I mean, you know, that's
why I wrote the book a is just to inspire people to be an
entrepreneur. That's what I was really hoping
to do because I know what a great life it's given me.
And you know, it's something I teach my kids about, you know,
being an entrepreneur. And and I think in this age of
AI where a lot of things are going to, oh, there are going to
be job loss and they'll be job created because of AI too.
I'm not saying that, but I think I don't know what profession I
would tell my kids to go learn to be in college right now that
isn't going to just get totally disrupted by AI, but you're
always going to need entrepreneurs.
So if I could inspire one person to be an entrepreneur that was
kind of on the fence, that have been worth it for the book for
me. And I've actually received a
couple emails saying just that. So that's it.
I think I would just, it's inspiring people to be
entrepreneurs and then if there's anything they can learn
from my lessons and my trials and errors and tribulations, I
would be thrilled about that. I think that that is actually
well said. Something just popped on my
mind. I I want to make you make a
commitment. I don't be recorded right.
So your book I, I, I really need a copy of that book.
I have a couple of books that are ready to buy, you know, from
a guest. So we have this.
You know this. I'll send you.
Here it is. There is mine, yeah.
Don't just want a copy of the book, I want an autographed copy
of the book. No worries.
I will send you on. Just just just like, just like
what Professor Bruno did, right? I think I need to start
connecting this autograph. There you go, I accept.
Accept your challenge. OK, OK.
Thank you very much. I appreciate that.
So you know what time it is, is the quick fire round.
Let's do it fun, fast and of course insightful.
Just give me the quickest answer that you can provide to this
questions. Are you ready to rumble?
Yes. Let's go.
OK, So what is one book that you think changed your life?
Yeah, I, you know, I know I mentioned how to win friends
influence people that that one day, but I already said that so
and I know another common entrepreneur 1 is rich Dad, poor
dad. But when I read that book.
Robert Kiyosaki. Yeah, I was young and it just
like changed my mind. Like I, I, I was thirsty for
something. I was searching for something.
I didn't know what that was. And I read that book and I'm
like, this is it, This is what I'm talking about.
It seemed like a major life hack to me.
I, I definitely assimilated with that book.
I don't know, it's not the right word.
I'm looking for whatever. I saw myself on that book and
that my dad was kind of like my real dad growing up was kind of
like the poor dad in that book. He's get a good education,
etcetera. I don't mean poor, like, you
know, whatever he, that was what his opinion was.
And then I had a buddy, one of my best friend's dad was like an
entrepreneur. He was kind of like the rich
dad. So there was 2 very influential
men in my, in my young life. And so that kind of made sense
to me. Anyways, I, that book changed my
life. I went on AI, went on a reading
spree, I learned about finance, I learned about entrepreneurship
I real estate, which I still do to this day as well that that
book changed my life. Do you want to hear a phone
fact? Yes.
Robert Kiyosaki says the same birthday with me.
Robert Kiyosaki is April 8th 1947 and of course I'm April
8th, 1992, so. That's cool.
Know, know that you are. You're talking to the rich dad.
Yeah. I want that.
Well, maybe maybe everyone born on April, like there's an
entrepreneur, you know, like that's.
Yeah. Oh, where's your birthday?
On November 17th. November 7th.
OK, you close to my 1717170. You're Scorpio.
Scorpio. Yes, Scorpio.
Yeah, you, you can. My mom is a Scorpio.
We we don't see eye to eye and everything that's.
All we need to worry about, yeah.
I'll tell you, I'll tell you, you know, like I feel, I feel
like my mom feels like I'm this troublemaker personality.
But you know, the troublemaker is honest is only making things
happen. But I don't know that is what I
feel. But she told me that no, that's
not what I think about you. But on my mind, that's what I
think you think. It's funny, I like that.
But think about it right, Right. What did you say?
That I'm also troublemaker, so all good there.
I'm telling you, I I feel like if you are going to be great at
entrepreneurship, you have to be a disruptor and you have to be a
troublemaker of some sorts. That, yeah, I agree.
Yeah, maybe this is. Wrong.
Go go check them out. Like you, most others be a
disruptor and I always like to say those mouths don't get fed.
Yep, right. Yeah.
So we always have to stand our grounds and, you know, be
assertive. And sometimes being assertive
leads to being borderline aggressive.
And aggression is not. It's not a bad thing entirely.
But I think people get uncomfortable with, you know,
people being aggressive because if you're ambitious, you have to
be aggressive, you know, to chase those things.
That's difficult to achieve. Well, I don't know if you want
to speak to that. No, no, I agree.
I mean, I think it's just about being pointing it in a positive
direction, you know? Absolutely.
You know, Yeah, You know, And of course, when they see the
results, they not come and say, oh, wow, I'm proud of you.
But excuse me, coffee, meditation or both.
Meditation. Oh wow, you just did that should
have a little question. OK, Biggest misconception about
entrepreneurship? I found it easier to be
successful than I thought it would be.
I think it's all the other things that go with it, like we
talked about today. Yeah, I think it's a
misconception that it's hard to run a successful business.
I do. I think it's about determination
and grit, and you got to have some talent, too.
But I think people, you know, they hear the numbers, 5% of
businesses fail in the first five years or whatever.
I think that's a misconception. I think it's people give up or
quit. They're not resilient.
Yeah, determination that greets the grind and of course the the
execution. So if you could have dinner with
one entrepreneur, you know in world history even or dead.
Yeah, this is a good one. I, you know, there's a the
couple that rattle in my brain. I'll give you kind of one that
is not probably talked about as much.
You know, Tim Ferriss, who wrote the four hour work week.
I was big fan of that book. That book really helped me run
the business to the beginning and be more efficient and
effective. And I listen to his I was like
early listeners podcast. I just think he's a great
teacher and it would be more more so to say thank you because
I feel like he he changed my life.
I've never met him or anything and listen to his podcast, but
there was an opportunity at one point when he was kind of on, he
wasn't very well known where you could bid on a dinner.
You could bid on a charity to go to a dinner and I'd try bidding
and it like they didn't get my bid or something.
And I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to make this happen.
So when I saw that, I was like, yeah, that's I would try to go
back in time and, and do that. But I think you guys are
brilliant dude. And he I would, I think I would
enjoy talking to him so. OK, fantastica team first,
right? OK, yeah, we work something out,
We work something out. There you go.
Make that happen, right? Yeah, you know, I'm the go to
guy. I'm the one who makes this
happen. That's why I'm called the
troublemaker. I love it.
Wow. So before I let you go, you are
pretty much like a Big Brother, right between us and
entrepreneurs. So what's your last statement of
advice, especially when it comes to a growth mindset for Statue
of Business? Yeah, I would say just just look
at as obstacles as opportunities.
There's a famous military hero in the United States, some Jocko
Willenic. I don't know if you know who he
is, but he he has something that he calls the good mindset where
it's looking at setbacks as opportunities.
Like, oh, I didn't get that job good, I can go start a company.
Oh, I didn't get financing to start my company.
Great, good. Or you know, excuse me, good, I
will own more equity. You know, I didn't get that deal
Good, I can go get a more high profitable customer.
So it's hard to do that right? It's difficult.
Your your natural reaction is to not feel that way.
But if you do look at that way, and that's what I would try to
do is like, OK, how can I look at the good in this?
OK, it's not natural, but how would I, how would I, what would
I do? What would become something good
out of it? Like I talked about before, that
situation where the two companies we build our services
around were like kind of very disrupted.
It's like I could have just kept going and rode that out and
whatever. But I was like, OK, good.
I'll look at this as an opportunity to go partner with
Microsoft. And then that took us off to a
whole new level. And so, you know, it's, it's
difficult, but it's an important mindset to have.
I think I really love that mindset.
It reminds me of a book I read growing up.
And of course, I'm really grateful that, you know, while I
was a teenager, I was exposed to a lot of really good self help
self development books. Well, I remember this one, it's
by Doctor Willie Jolie. Of course the Titan of the book
is a set back is a setup for a comeback.
Yeah, I've heard that phrase, obviously, but I did not.
I've never read that book. That's great.
It's a book everybody should be, you know, it.
It talks about a particular formula, the dad, and that's a
vision, decision, action and desire.
And when I think back, you know, full second moment about how
those books have affected my life, influencing my mentality,
my attitude as a person. And now looking how it's helping
me to impact, you know, younger ones, you know, while you're
younger, you, you feel like you're going to be young
forever. But when you see these younger
ones look up to you and they tell you, oh, you're giving us
gems. Really appreciate you.
And my social media and somebody was messaging me on X formerly
cheater yesterday. And the person said, it's really
wonderful connecting with you. I feel so honored, you know,
having advice from a person like you.
And I'm like, who am I? Well, you never know your impact
and congratulations to you on the podcast.
Everything you're doing, man, and wouldn't possibly I like
like all the Jerry, your quote and stuff.
It's good stuff. So keep it going and.
Thank you very much for that. You know, faith, faith, faith is
a sometimes of these hope for the evidence of these not seen.
You know, I'm very, very big on faith.
And do you want to know what my best Bible verse is?
Yes, I would love to. Philippians chapter 4, verse 13.
I can do all things through crisis transcends me.
It keeps it going. Yeah.
And I was going to tell you something.
The very first book my father ever gifted me was thinking
Queries by Not Totally going to Kill.
Oh, yeah, the holy hill. Yeah.
Oh, of course I read that book. Yeah.
What I read that book? I love it.
I agree with it. You know, it's one of those
things you read and you're like, is this true?
And it seems kind of weird that I could just like think it and
grow rich. But that that book I read on
Millionaire Next Door is kind of similar kind of realm.
At least I read a lot of those self help books.
But yeah, think and grow rich. I mean, I never thought I'd be
in my position that I'm in now. And IA lot of those books were
very influential for me too. And I love that you talk about
reading so much because I'm a avid reader myself.
And that would be like probably one of the biggest things I
would say. And I tried it and it's part of
my kids. It's like read, you know, it's
like all the like secrets of life are hidden in books and
it's for you to unlock them. And you know, we it's really
easy to get caught up and you know, TikTok and Instagram or
whatever these kind of quick knit things, but like to have
concentrated time and energy. And I think there's some
beautiful about the written word, which is why I wanted to
write a book myself. You know, like you can really
fristalize, you know, what what you're trying to say.
And that's hard to do even like in a podcast, like I'll listen
back this like, Oh, I should have said that or I should have
said this or whatever. But when you're writing, you can
actually edit and really adapt it.
And so you're getting someone's best, you know, So if you're
reading all this stuff like that book, like that was his best,
you know, and that's the beauty of books that is doesn't exist.
Otherwise your movies a little bit, you know, but and that's
you know, I don't know. I am huge avid reader and I just
thought I love that I could tell that you are too.
So that's great. Thank you very much.
I think there's sort of like a solution to to what you were
just talking about. And I think that solution is
audio books and of course the contents of versions SO11 brand
or what product that I really appreciate is Blinkist.
So hi guys, Blinkist, please tell them it's high time to
become sponsor this broadcast. So I have a one year
subscription with them. So for me, I I love to get
sponsored by brands that I use personally.
So I'm the most authentic person working on the surface of the
earth. So I'm an endangered species.
So I cannot advertise something that I don't use.
I cannot endorse something I don't use.
So that's a help in thank you very much, guys.
And of course, being kissed you up next.
Let's do this whoa And of course to Kevin Barnacle love and of
course respect to he. I only say that when a person
shares the time with you to share their life with you at
first. Thank you for sharing your life
and your time with. Me.
Thank you man. I'm very grateful to our
audience. Can you see that gorilla behind
Kevin, right? If you do not share and
subscribe and comment and show love to this broadcast that
Karina is from your way. And of course, for me, it's
goodbye Kevin. Any last last words or do you
want to give a shout out to anybody before you run away?
No thanks, man. I really enjoyed talking with
you and yeah, being a guest, so thank you.
OK, out of Chris. Hopefully.
We'll see. You'll see in the part too,
brother. Wow, like I like to say, guys,
guys, always go for something in your life so very, very
important, conceive, believe, strive to thrive and of course
achieve. And so that can't be a way next.
I love and I respect your way. Goodbye for me.