1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,080 So when I talk about wealth creation, I'm really talking 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:07,040 about the realization of ideas. So the journey from idea 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,560 generation to idea crystallization, you know, money 4 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,600 is just a measurement of how how effective you are at that 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,640 process. So that's when I talk about 6 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:18,080 wealth, that's what I'm talking about. 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,400 And the sort of final thing that I've sort of learnt is that 8 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,720 competition is the most powerful force we know to actually create 9 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:26,520 wealth. And we kind of, you know, know 10 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,160 this intuitively ourselves, you know that nobody. 11 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,560 Forces of demand and supply. And nobody wants to compete. 12 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,320 You know, I used to be a a 400m runner and you know, I found 13 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,520 that I always had my best races from the outside lane, largely 14 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,360 because when you're in the outside lane in a 400, you run 15 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:46,320 on fear. But if but nobody wakes up 16 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,240 thinking, oh I'd love to compete today and everyone wants a quiet 17 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:56,120 life. Welcome to the King Dems 18 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,440 Podcast, where we share the stories of extraordinary people 19 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,640 and dissect hot, relevant topics that shape our world. 20 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,680 From visionary leaders to trailblazing creatives, we 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,040 uncover the mindset, strategy, and grit behind greatness. 22 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,560 Whether it's business, culture, or personal growth, we ask the 23 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,000 real questions. This isn't just conversation, 24 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,560 it's transformation. The Kingdom's podcast, Your Next 25 00:01:18,560 --> 00:01:22,280 Breakthrough, starts here. Music licensing reimagined. 26 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,600 Before we dive back into today's conversation, I want to share 27 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:28,080 something important. This episode includes a pay 28 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,160 partnership with Better Help, a platform designed to make 29 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:31,960 starting therapy easier. I know for my own journey as a 30 00:01:31,960 --> 00:01:33,600 leader and entrepreneur that life can sometimes feel 31 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:34,960 overwhelming. 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So if you feel like you'd 50 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:13,320 benefit from talking to a therapist, visit 51 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:16,640 betterhelp.com/contained that's betterhelp.com/contained to get 52 00:02:16,640 --> 00:02:18,000 10% off your first mother therapy. 53 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,160 Once again, this is a paid partnership with better Help and 54 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:21,720 I encourage you to take that first step. 55 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:23,440 If you've been thinking about it, sometimes the best 56 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,440 investment you can make these. Game yourself, ladies and 57 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,000 gentlemen, life once again welcome to the Kingdom's podcast 58 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,760 and the diary of the CFO. And today I've got would be a 59 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:39,080 very, very important guest fighting out of London, England 60 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:43,240 by way of Washington, the CEO of State of America, the Qualcomm, 61 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,360 Shankar Singh. How are you, Sagar? 62 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,000 I am very well. Thank you. 63 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,120 Very good to be on. Whoa, whoa, whoa. 64 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,480 I'm so grateful, you know, having you on the show, like I 65 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:57,080 told you before we started that I told you, you don't want us to 66 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,200 do this. But you know, the Savior, 67 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,960 there's a real, there is a way. Not many people are privileged 68 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:15,440 to have to be in space to have their body of work have global 69 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:18,600 impact and global relevance. And you do that. 70 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:21,960 And I'm super grateful to have this discussion with you. 71 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:27,160 Growing up, I read a lot of great minds, the body of work 72 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,760 with great minds, top philosophers, you know, the 73 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,320 ancient philosophers, the Greek philosophers like Socrates, 74 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,640 Aristotle, Factory, even contemporary ones like we think 75 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,200 Churchill. A lot of people did not know 76 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,680 Winston Churchill was actually a great writer, won the Nobel 77 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,320 Prize for literature. And imagine the privilege of 78 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,240 having conversations with these great minds. 79 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:53,040 And I'm privileged to have conversations with the great 80 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:58,160 minds of my own time. I feel very blessed. 81 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,920 I feel very, very blessed. Also good welcome. 82 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,120 So I've actually pinned down this introduction and give you 83 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:08,240 flowers. So you sit back and while I do 84 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,040 the honors. So today are the King Games 85 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,360 broadcast and Gary the CFOI have the honor sitting down with one 86 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,839 of the world's most respected voices on trade, competition and 87 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:20,040 economy prosperity. Shankar Singh Khan as chairman 88 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:24,880 of the Growth Commission and CEO of competitor Shankar has 89 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:29,920 advised across the globe offered Seminole works like a general 90 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,840 theory of trade and competition and set as a trusted force to 91 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:36,280 policy makers at the highest level. 92 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:39,960 From shaping global trade policy to exploring how open and 93 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,400 competitive markets feel human flourishing, these Carpier has 94 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:47,560 been dedicated to helping nations unlock prosperity. 95 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,120 Today, we'll dive into the pressing challenges and 96 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,800 opportunities of global trade and also explore personal 97 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,320 philosophies. The Dragons work. 98 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,440 Shankar, welcome to the show. Thank you very much. 99 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,240 It's great to be here. You're always welcome, of 100 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,080 course, you know, let's talk about the foundations and of 101 00:05:05,080 --> 00:05:07,840 course, the philosophies. You've been described as one of 102 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,960 the leading global experts in trade and competition law. 103 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,360 What's packed your passion for these subjects, and how has your 104 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:17,640 personal journey shaped your perspective on economic policy? 105 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:24,800 Well, what's really shaped me is, is the experience at the 106 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:30,840 coalface working with companies that have been trying to trade 107 00:05:30,840 --> 00:05:36,480 and improve economic opportunities for consumers 108 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,160 around the world. What I've seen in the course of 109 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:44,280 the last 30 + 35 almost years in doing this is that there are 110 00:05:44,280 --> 00:05:47,160 various barriers to economic growth that we see. 111 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,200 Some are obvious, like tariffs and trade barriers that are, 112 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,480 that are at the border. Some are less obvious. 113 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:56,040 And in fact, the less obvious ones, the ones that damage 114 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,240 economic growth, you know, inside the border are much 115 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:03,160 harder to deal with. And so I spent a good bit of 116 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:05,720 time trying to sort of understand the interaction 117 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,760 between all of the different restrictions that apply. 118 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,360 And I guess what, what I've come to believe and it is, it has 119 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,920 been a journey as you, as you pointed out, it's not something 120 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:20,920 I sort of grew up believing in. It's something I sort of came 121 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,960 to, which is first of all, the wealth is can be created or 122 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,800 destroyed, but it's very easy to destroy and very hard to create. 123 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:32,320 Absolutely. And when we talk about wealth 124 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,440 also that it's also important to understand, you know, we need to 125 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,360 use language. And you quoted a few people, 126 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:41,960 Aristotle and so on, who talked a lot about language use 127 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,440 language, you know, very, very precisely. 128 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:47,840 So when I talk about wealth creation, I'm really talking 129 00:06:47,840 --> 00:06:51,840 about the realization of ideas. So the journey from idea 130 00:06:51,840 --> 00:06:55,360 generation to idea crystallization, you know, money 131 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:59,360 is just a measurement of how how effective you are at that 132 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:01,400 process. So that's when I talk about 133 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:02,800 wealth, that's what I'm talking about. 134 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,160 And the sort of final thing that I've sort of learned is that 135 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,440 competition is the most powerful force we know to actually create 136 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,240 wealth. And we kind of, you know, know 137 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,920 this intuitively ourselves, you know, nobody. 138 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,280 Forces of demand and supply and. Nobody wants to compete. 139 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:22,080 You know, I used to be a a 400m runner and, you know, I found 140 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,280 that I always had my best races from the outside lane, largely 141 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,120 because when you're in the outside lane in a 400, you run 142 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:31,360 on fear sort of. But nobody wakes up thinking, 143 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:34,400 oh, I'd love to compete today. Everyone wants a quiet life. 144 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,200 In fact, there was a famous Supreme Court judge who said the 145 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,560 best monopoly prophet is a quiet life. 146 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,360 So, you know, nobody wants to compete, but we also, we all 147 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:46,320 know that competition makes us better. 148 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,480 It takes us to a place that we wouldn't otherwise be be able 149 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,800 to, to, to, to, to reach. And that's, it's such a powerful 150 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,320 force in, in the sort of human psyche. 151 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,360 So those are the kind of principles that that we need to 152 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,320 apply to economic systems. And the test of a of, of an 153 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,600 economic system that works is how well it applies those forces 154 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,720 and how will it therefore allows wealth to be created and 155 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,080 prosperity to be unleashed. And that's kind of what I've 156 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:13,800 been working on for my career, really. 157 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,160 Wow, There's a lot to unpack what you've just said. 158 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,360 First of all, I feel very, very people as you know, having these 159 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,600 conversation because I do have a first degree in economics for 160 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,400 the habit of bacteria that is a bachelor university. 161 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,799 And when I was given the opportunity to have this 162 00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:38,000 conversation with you very sad out to quote it our partners, 163 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:42,799 you know, they brought up the topic and said would you like to 164 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:46,040 speak with this expert? It was a no brainer have a first 165 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,200 degree economics, even though I never worked as an economist, 166 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:53,040 you know, I keep it head into accounting work for the global 167 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,800 be for accounting terms and you know, MBA entrepreneurship 168 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,320 economics is at the it's a better because everything I 169 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,960 would do like to social science. Man is a social animal and the 170 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,080 financial the economic behavior of man is what is studied in 171 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,200 economics. You know, you have a macro and 172 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,760 across the micro and you talked about competition. 173 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:21,080 You talked about, well, you know, being easy to destroy and 174 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:25,000 difficult to create just to bring it to a granular level for 175 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,960 our audience for the lead man. You reminded me of something I 176 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:30,640 was explaining to your friend. I said, look at this building. 177 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:33,000 You have a beef. It's it's a five story building. 178 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,800 How many months do you think it took to build this building? 179 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:41,480 Maybe or yeah, but you know, we could hire contractors to bring 180 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,200 break it all down in one day. So that is your classic example. 181 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,240 It's very, very easy to destroy, but difficult, you know, to 182 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:52,080 build. And you know, I come from 183 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:54,120 Nigeria. Big shout out to my people. 184 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:55,600 I'm always with my Nigerian flag. 185 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,840 I love my country a lot. And it's a developing economy 186 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,440 and development economics is a whole branch of economics on its 187 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,680 own. And I remember a lecturer called 188 00:10:07,680 --> 00:10:11,600 Rest His Soul taught me in university, he was fond of 189 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,160 seeing something probably about Nigeria as a developing economy 190 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:19,640 is the fact that we produce what we don't consume and we consume 191 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,080 what we don't produce. And I'll tell you something, 192 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,800 targeting economics helped me to shift my perspective in life. 193 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,920 And you know, when you talk about the competitive advantage, 194 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:33,240 it's interesting we're talking about competition here. 195 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,640 I thought to myself, what are my talents as a person growing up, 196 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:41,200 I used to sing and I used to speak, have presentations, but I 197 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,160 oftentimes met people who could sing better than me. 198 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,600 But I never really met people who were good at having 199 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:50,640 intellectual conversations like myself or presentations. 200 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:54,040 And I decided to go for the competitive advantage. 201 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,960 Like, OK, I know I could be the best in the world at this stage. 202 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:01,960 And as we speak right now, I I have two globally ranked 203 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:03,920 podcasts. The King Games podcast is ranked 204 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:09,080 global top 2.5% carrier for CF OS ranked global top 5%. 205 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:13,240 And just to give you context, both shows are less than two 206 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,120 years. The second show that is ranked 207 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:17,840 global top 5% is just three months old. 208 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,720 We need to within three months and two top 5% in the world. 209 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,440 That means you have actually taken the line of your 210 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,920 competitive advantage as an individual. 211 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:32,200 But now we bring it back to, you know, the macro level and also 212 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,320 not forgetting the micro level as well. 213 00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:37,640 If your work. You always talk about human 214 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,080 flourishing. So can't you explain how trade 215 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,680 competition policy directly affects the everyday lives of 216 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,040 ordinary people? Yeah. 217 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,440 So if you sort of think about what I described as a sort of 218 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,960 fundamental principles of economic growth, why does why 219 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,200 does economic growth matter? It matters because what what is 220 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,280 an what is an economy? An economy is essentially a 221 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,560 series of billions of voluntary exchanges between human beings. 222 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,920 You know, so, so for you're an entrepreneur, if an entrepreneur 223 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,960 comes up with a particular product that people want, then 224 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,200 they're meeting a human need. And they, you know, people come 225 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:16,880 together in voluntary exchange to meet human needs. 226 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,600 And there are billions and billions of these transactions 227 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,760 going along at along at any time, you know, in the world. 228 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:26,960 And what you want to do in a, in a society and in a society where 229 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,760 human beings flourish is you want to ensure that there is, 230 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:32,720 there are as few barriers as possible to those kinds of 231 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,880 voluntary exchanges. So there's nothing in the way of 232 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,720 those people seeking to meet human need in the in the, in 233 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,920 those voluntary exchanges and all sort of theory of this is 234 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,400 the things that get in the way of those voluntary exchanges, we 235 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,640 call anti competitive market distortions, which, which are 236 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,760 essentially anything distortions a good word because if you think 237 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,640 about a radio signal, for example, it's distorted when you 238 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,960 know the pathway between the listener and the and the signal 239 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:02,640 itself is somehow obscured by by something. 240 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,120 And that's kind of how distortions work in the global 241 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,640 economy. So what we're trying to do is 242 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:10,920 say, well, can we measure these distortions? 243 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,760 And I've developed an economic model that allows people to 244 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,520 allows you to measure the economic effects of these 245 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:19,840 distortions. And it's significantly worse 246 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:24,160 than people think. It's measured in terms of losses 247 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,680 to productivity and losses to GDP per capita. 248 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:30,720 Essentially, that's household income. 249 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:34,640 So, you know, a particular distortion might cost the 250 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,000 average person in Nigeria, for example, if the distortions in 251 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:42,440 Nigeria, you know, it might be $500 per person per year, it 252 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:46,760 might be $5000 per person per year, but it's it's going to be 253 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,600 something. And what is very important with 254 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,240 regard to human flourishing is, you know, it applies 255 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,320 differentially between between different people. 256 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,960 So if you're rich, this distortion is inconvenient. 257 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,520 You know, if the price of bread goes up by as a result of a 258 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:09,520 distortion, if it goes up by, I don't know, 10 percent, 20%, if 259 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:11,560 you're rich, it's kind of a inconvenience. 260 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,160 If you're poor, it's a catastrophe. 261 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,560 So and it can be the difference between, you know, choosing food 262 00:14:17,560 --> 00:14:20,480 versus heating versus, you know, all of these different things. 263 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,920 So it's the bottom layer of the socio economic sort of ladder 264 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,720 that are most affected by these distortions and also most 265 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,600 affected by reduction of these distortions. 266 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,200 So if you want to let people be free and you want to allow them 267 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,480 to aspire and to reach higher levels for both themselves and 268 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,440 their children, you've got to get rid of these kinds of 269 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,720 barriers and these these kinds of distortions. 270 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,320 Now you might think, well that that's obvious. 271 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:48,840 So, so why doesn't it happen? You know, if it's so obvious? 272 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,160 The problem we have is that there are beneficiaries of these 273 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,440 distortions and the beneficiaries of these 274 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,200 distortions tend to be the vested interests who want the 275 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,360 status quo to be to be preserved. 276 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,640 I mean, they, they basically, they basically benefit 277 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,760 enormously from the, the lack of competition, keeping the, the, 278 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,880 the potential competitors and the new entrants out of this 279 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:15,200 allows them to raise their prices and, and make more 280 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:17,760 revenue. And so those people tend to be 281 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,720 very politically powerful. And in fact, when you look at 282 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,080 developing countries, and we've done this work in about 80 283 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,960 different countries, they tend to be even more powerful in 284 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:27,960 developing countries. And almost the smaller the 285 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,160 country, the more powerful these kinds of forces actually are. 286 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:35,120 And so the people most in need of reform are the ones who find 287 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,480 it most difficult to do it. And so that has been a big 288 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,960 challenge in the global economy. And that's one of the reasons 289 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,200 why, you know, we haven't seen the level of economic growth 290 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,200 that we'd like to see in in, in the world. 291 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,880 In fact, if you look at the way global GDP has has moved in the 292 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:59,320 last, let's say 2000 years between 0AD and let's say 1930 293 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,240 before the First World War, the global economy grew by only a 294 00:16:03,240 --> 00:16:05,280 fact. It doubled essentially in size 295 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,400 in that almost 2000 years between 1947. 296 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:13,160 After the Second World War and 2001, in that 50 or so year 297 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,640 period, it grew by a factor of 7 or 8. 298 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,960 So it it it, it, it doubled in 1900 years. 299 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,000 And then after the Second World War it grew by a factor of 7 or 300 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,440 8. So it's real hockey stick kind 301 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,440 of graph and the, and the question is what's what caused 302 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,400 that? What's the reason for that? 303 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,520 And it, the power of it is not to be underestimated. 304 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,440 I mean, we, we managed to reduce the number of people living on a 305 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,320 dollar a day. The sort of absolute poverty 306 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:44,720 level. We actually reduced that by 307 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,720 before the financial crisis, we, we reduced it to zero. 308 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,440 There were, there was nobody in the world living on less than a 309 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,360 dollar a day. Unfortunately that is now 310 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:58,120 increasing again. Growth has sort of fallen off in 311 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,600 the last 25 years and that's one of the reasons this has this has 312 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,000 happened. But and actually in particular 313 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:07,359 developed country growth has also fallen off in the last 25 314 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:09,480 years. So what we're trying to do in 315 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:13,599 our modelling is sort of explain to people what is being lost by 316 00:17:13,599 --> 00:17:17,280 these kinds of distortions so that those people who want 317 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,440 reform are better able to achieve it because they're 318 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,640 better able to communicate the gains of reform in a way that 319 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:25,880 they haven't really been able to do in the past. 320 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,119 Wow. You touched a lot of things, a 321 00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,520 lot to unpack, right? In economic, technical terms, 322 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:35,240 price of elasticity, price sensitivity. 323 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:41,560 You also talking about Museum of Power priority, but who better 324 00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:48,280 to speak to than a professional and an entrepreneur who actually 325 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,440 comes from a developing economy, right? 326 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:55,760 I will see it as a tease. I'm pretty sure that you studied 327 00:17:55,760 --> 00:18:00,960 economics and to understand in depth, you know, these terms 328 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,720 that you are actually doing a very, very great job to 329 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,840 simplify, right? I appreciate how much you are 330 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,960 simplifying these things or you dropped a question, you know, as 331 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:18,080 to why this, you know, things or these patterns are ongoing 332 00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:20,840 without an end. And it reminds me of a 333 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,520 particular, you know, concept that are studying in Congress 334 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:27,720 and it's called the vicious cycle of poverty. 335 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:32,840 A lot for you to touch in it. You know, while we we we set way 336 00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:36,080 into the next question, talking about the global trade dynamics. 337 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,040 I really want us to touch on the the elephant in the room, the 338 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,280 reason why I quoted brought us together. 339 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,120 And, you know, it's the big one, the US, China trade nation. 340 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,560 How do you see, you know, China's industrial policies and 341 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,600 overproduction affecting global markets and of course, the US 342 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,680 industries as the US are very, very, very vocal about this 343 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,480 right now, especially from a political standpoint. 344 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,320 And of course, in your experience, like what roles? 345 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:08,000 Do. These trade negotiations play in 346 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:13,040 addressing balances and what mistakes to policymakers often 347 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:15,080 make in these conversations. Yeah. 348 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,880 I think to answer that, you sort of got to go back to how we got 349 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:20,360 here. And so if you look at that 350 00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:24,320 period, I talked about that huge impact on economic growth and, 351 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:25,760 and lifting people out of poverty. 352 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,440 A lot of that was to do with the international trade system that 353 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,200 was designed to remove a lot of these barriers, you know, when 354 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,560 after the Second World War. And perhaps one of the reasons 355 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,000 for the Second World War was the, the sort of very high 356 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,920 tariffs between countries and very the difficulty of trading 357 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,320 between countries. A lot of those sort of border 358 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,080 barriers, the obvious barriers that I talked about went down in 359 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,240 the course of those trade negotiations that happened after 360 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,120 the Second World War. But we came to a sort of stop 361 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,040 after the 1980s when the what's called the Uruguay Round, which 362 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,920 is the the the trade round between 1986 and 1994. 363 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,160 Concluded what was supposed to happen is we were supposed to 364 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,600 move through the 1970s and the 1980s to deal not only with the 365 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,920 tariffs, the border barriers, but to deal with these internal 366 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,240 distortions as well. Now, at the same time some big 367 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,680 things were happening, you know, the the fall of the Soviet 368 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:20,880 Union, a lot of these countries were coming into the 369 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,720 international trading system. They had a legacy of a lot of 370 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,360 these kinds of barriers and distortion. 371 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,400 India moved from being a country that was entirely sort of import 372 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:36,440 substitution to open to, to, to, to trade and open to markets and 373 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:40,160 to market economy. Latin America also transitioned 374 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,720 at this time. So you had a huge numbers of 375 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,840 people coming into the trading system. 376 00:20:44,120 --> 00:20:46,360 And of course, we also had the China VTR accession. 377 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,960 Now, what we failed to do, when it's, you can say this with 378 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,040 hindsight, and I was very involved in the transition, of 379 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:53,600 course. Yeah. 380 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,160 But I, I was involved in the in the transitions in these 381 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,120 countries in the in the early 90s, both in Latin America and 382 00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,520 in the former Soviet Union. And what we failed to do, we 383 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,200 assume that if you open up the border, the competition will 384 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,880 automatically follow and economic democracy will follow 385 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,360 that and political democracy will follow that. 386 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,480 And of course, none of these things actually happened. 387 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,480 And they partly didn't happen because particularly in in the 388 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,920 case of China, we ignored the internal distortions. 389 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,720 We sort of pretended they they weren't there, although we we 390 00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:25,160 pretended they would simply disappear once China was part of 391 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,920 the sort of global trading community and this did not 392 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,560 happen. We were supposed to embark on 393 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,880 this kind of work after the Uruguay Round in 1997. 394 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,360 I think people may remember the 1999 Seattle trade ministerial 395 00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:42,040 riots where there were crowds on the streets. 396 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,960 But what was more damaging, I think, was a number of people in 397 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,920 the rooms in these ministerial discussions who essentially said 398 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,600 we don't really care about internal distortions. 399 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,320 You know, the job of the trading system is to deal with tariffs 400 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,480 and to deal with, you know, obvious border barriers. 401 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,640 What we do inside our markets is sort of up to us, which is fine. 402 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:06,640 You, you can, you can do that. But if you're doing something 403 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,280 inside your market that damages your trading partners, you can 404 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,800 expect your trading partners to take some sort of action. 405 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,600 And it is lower motion. The third motion, yes action, is 406 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,080 an equal opposite reaction. Right. 407 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:22,880 And there was and there was a reaction and the failure to 408 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,120 deal. So China steel case is a good 409 00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:29,120 example because in the case of China Steel, you had enormous 410 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,320 barriers in the steel market in China. 411 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,080 The essentially the government gave these companies, these 412 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,280 state owned companies, Freeland free water free energy, free 413 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:39,840 everything. Naturally there was an 414 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,480 overproduction of seal. They had to sell it somewhere. 415 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,520 So they sold it basically to the US consumer who tends to be the 416 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,360 sort of buyer of last resort. And of course this meant that 417 00:22:48,360 --> 00:22:51,680 the competitive companies, the producers in the US, you know, 418 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,600 places like Ohio and Pennsylvania and so on went out 419 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,120 of business. What happens when that occurs? 420 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:00,160 And this is what happened through the thousands and 2000 421 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:03,400 and 10s is that you get this anger that builds up among 422 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:04,920 people. You know, why is this happening? 423 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:08,520 Why have I lost my job here? They don't say what I've just 424 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:10,360 said. They don't say, well, this is 425 00:23:10,360 --> 00:23:12,720 because of a failure of the trading system to deal with 426 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,400 distortions and therefore we need to deal with distortions 427 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,280 better. I'm going to ask my government 428 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,000 to deal with distortions better. They just say the whole thing is 429 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,080 bad. I was promised all these things 430 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,560 from the liberalized globalized trading system, and I didn't get 431 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,040 any of them. And I'd see Wall Street getting 432 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,960 very, very. So I'm going to basically I'm 433 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,840 going to put in place a candidate or a politician who 434 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,480 will protect me from all of these things. 435 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,000 And, you know, frankly, President Trump kind of rode the 436 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,560 wave of this in 2016 and responded by saying he was going 437 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,480 to protect people from this type of this type of insortion. 438 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,240 Wasn't just in the US. You know, in the UK, Red Car, 439 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:52,560 Paul Talbot, I mean, there were youth unemployment rates of 90% 440 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,560 in some of these places, particular times when steel 441 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,040 mills closed down. So it was, you know, widespread 442 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,440 effect. And this is basically what's 443 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,880 happening in the US, China relationship now is trying to 444 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,000 work out these problems. We saw this also in textiles we 445 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,560 see in lots of different companies. 446 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,360 And what I think the administration, the US currently 447 00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,840 is engaged on with China and actually with other countries in 448 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,200 the world is, you know, these things, these distortions, these 449 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,800 regulatory barriers, these behind the border barriers 450 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,480 actually have a huge effect on trade. 451 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,080 And by the way, they have a huge effect on their own economy as 452 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,720 well. So the China economy is not in 453 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,400 good shape right now and in fact would be improved if they 454 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:34,320 eliminated a lot of these barriers and distortion. 455 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:37,160 So there's actually a sort of unity of interest between the 456 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,320 exporter and the domestic consumer. 457 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,240 They both want the same the same thing and the economy of the 458 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,920 country that's doing the distorting would benefit if it 459 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,800 lowered the distortion. But I mean this, this tells you 460 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,000 a little bit about the, how powerful the forces are that 461 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,080 oppose that kind of reform. Because if that is true and the 462 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,840 country benefits and the trading partner benefits, you know, 463 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,200 that's how wealth is created, then why why don't we do it? 464 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,160 What, why is it so difficult to do? 465 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,240 Well, it's so difficult to do because these powerful forces 466 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,240 really oppose it. And they're very, very strong. 467 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,000 And in addition to that, you've got some other issues with 468 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,200 regard to China, with regard to sort of national security and 469 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,240 all of these things as well. So it's a complicated 470 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,200 relationship, but it's a relationship that sort of 471 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,640 defines the global picture as well. 472 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,320 So global. Landscape. 473 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,440 Wow, I know that you are a very busy man. 474 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,040 Of course, you know, you have this really crunch for time and 475 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,000 of course we have just 4 minutes to save the life, right? 476 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,320 4 minutes left, yes. Whenever I'm asked what's the 477 00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,800 cost of all these things, I always need two word answer. 478 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,800 Automation and recession, right? It's interesting what's 479 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,760 happening in the global landscape with the introduction 480 00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,280 of AI. We need to use it to leverage 481 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,720 efficiency. But the powers that be, you 482 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,240 know, just tortures are trying to resist it or it's like a 483 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,240 tsunami. You know, it's it's going to 484 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:59,560 come and watch, you know, the whole elementary. 485 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,960 So the world really needs to give way and, you know, has to 486 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,680 conform in order to ensure that global efficiency, You know, 487 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,280 talking about competition. Pretty warm. 488 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,680 We've actually worked, you know, across the globe with countries 489 00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,320 like Brazil to South Korea to Morocco, like helping them 490 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,680 design through competitive regulatory frameworks. 491 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,000 You know, I'm quite curious about, you know, what the 492 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,680 patterns have been, the lessons that have stood out. 493 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,360 And of course, you know, that's read these into your leadership. 494 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,240 If you currently chaired the growth Commission and that's 495 00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,600 important economists that tackle slow growth in T7 countries. 496 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,360 You know, what have been the borders ideas, you know, 497 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,920 currently on the table for big banks And you know from a 498 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,320 personal standpoint, what do you think is the most efficient 499 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,800 solution to tackle these economic prices that we've seen 500 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,520 at the global? Well, the interesting thing is 501 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,520 when we developed our economic model that shows that the 502 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,320 attempts to evaluate the cost of these distortions, we found 503 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,520 something that was somewhat counterintuitive, which is that 504 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,040 we break this into three sort of fundamental pillars. 505 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,880 And how open is your trade regime? 506 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,960 How competitive is your market? How well do you protect property 507 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,240 rights? So within those 3 pillars, there 508 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:15,320 are very direct and very robust correlations between in GDP per 509 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,400 capita and positive movements in those in those pillars. 510 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,400 But what we found is that an equivalent movement in or 511 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,840 positive movement in each of those 3 pillars does not have 512 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,840 the same GDP per capita effect. So in fact, they're quite big 513 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,680 differences between them. So if I improve my trade 514 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,920 environment by which is principally border, border 515 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,760 barriers, I reduce border barriers by a certain 516 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:41,640 percentage, I get a, a gain in GDP per capita. 517 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,600 But if I had to apply that the same percentage to my regulatory 518 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,080 system, my domestic regulatory system, I get a gain that's 519 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,480 three or four times as great. And if I, if I apply that to my 520 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,800 property rights protecting environment, I get a gain that's 521 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,280 about twice as great. So this is counterintuitive. 522 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,280 We tend to think that the main thing to do is to reduce the 523 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,520 border barriers and then everything else is kind of a 524 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,440 icing on the cake. Actually, what we're finding is 525 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,000 that it's the other way around. What you need to do is improve 526 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,440 your regulatory regime first, improve your domestic protection 527 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,840 of investment property rights and that kind of thing first. 528 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,880 Then you can open up your, your, your, your, your work on your 529 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,680 border, border arrangements. And we kind of did this the 530 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,000 other way route and we assumed you do the border stuff and 531 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,320 everything else flows. Actually, we should have done 532 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,120 all three things together and that's kind of the learning that 533 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,400 we have. So in terms of what we recommend 534 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,120 now, we go where the gain is the biggest pull, the pull the 535 00:28:36,120 --> 00:28:39,400 biggest lever first, which is regulatory reform. 536 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:43,200 So that is the single biggest challenge that that the 537 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,240 countries face. We've seen a massive increase 538 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,640 in, particularly in in the developed world, actually more 539 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,560 so than the developing world, but we've seen a massive 540 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,680 increase in regulatory burden. And this isn't just about 541 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:55,880 business. People tend to think of 542 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,040 regulations or they think of business compliance costs. 543 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,520 And so they sort of talk about deregulation or regulation. 544 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,200 And that's not really the issue. The issue is does that 545 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,040 particular regulatory rule benefit a powerful incumbent 546 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,880 company to the detriment of new entrants or entrepreneurs? 547 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,400 That's really the fundamental question you've got to ask. 548 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,440 Does it affect the competitive landscape? 549 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,240 And some of these, some of them don't have any effect at all. 550 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,640 And that's all fine. But for those that do seems to 551 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,640 be very, very careful about them. 552 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,960 And they need to also look at their existing rule books and 553 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:31,640 see, well, how much of this is really actually affecting market 554 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,480 competition. It may not have been intended to 555 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,080 do that, but it's having that effect. 556 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:36,360 So we need to do something about it. 557 00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:39,840 It was an interesting study recently on the federal rule 558 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,320 book in the US, which is, as you know, many thousands and 559 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:49,360 thousands of pages, the about 30, 1 to 37% of market share 560 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,240 improvements. In other words, companies 561 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,360 getting more market power were due to federal regulation, not 562 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,680 their own business acumen, not their efficiency, not their 563 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,360 quality. But essentially what this is, is 564 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:04,720 large companies protecting their market share through regulation, 565 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,320 you know, was going to the government. 566 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:09,520 Lobbying. To block their their their 567 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:11,360 opponents. So this is the kind of thing 568 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:13,360 that that you need to deal with and what we're seeing is there 569 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,160 is an awful lot of this. It's a morass and it's very 570 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,800 difficult to challenge because these, they tend to build on 571 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,400 each other. It's like a, it's like a set of 572 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,200 weeds in a golden. You know, it's not easy to weed 573 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,440 the gold because you don't know you might accidentally pull up a 574 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,880 flower, you know, while you're trying to weed the golden. 575 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:33,040 So it's very difficult to deal with these kinds of issues, but 576 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,880 they are they are the issues that give you the biggest gain 577 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,800 by far of anything a government can do me to you. 578 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,920 I am very, very grateful, you know, having you on the podcast 579 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,520 today. I will not be able to take the 580 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:47,960 quick pie around, but our life for you to leave us. 581 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,800 We just want Nuggets, you know, let's us pie the next generation 582 00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:54,920 of leaders. Many of our listeners are 583 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,080 entrepreneurs, young leaders, and even students. 584 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,000 What's your advice for the next generation and what's one book 585 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,320 that would advise everyone should need on economic 586 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,240 prosperity? Well, I would be remiss if I 587 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:13,560 didn't talk about my recent book on on trade and regulation and 588 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,760 and and economics. Let's get the book. 589 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,680 These so we're added to the description. 590 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,920 Yes, absolutely so so I've written actually 4/4 books now 591 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,920 on distortions. We need all four. 592 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:27,040 We need all four of the. Description, but, but so I would 593 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,240 recommend, you know, obviously I'd recommend my in books, but I 594 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,680 mean, I think the what people need to to to to be clear about 595 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,160 I think is this issue of voluntary exchange. 596 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,080 And what I found is a lot of young people who are very 597 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,280 opposed to capitalism. They're very anti capitalist, as 598 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:43,880 it were. But when you drill down what 599 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,360 they oppose, what they're really opposed to is cronyism. 600 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,640 And of course that is entirely right to be opposed to that and 601 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:54,280 that's exactly what what I would be opposed to as well. 602 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:56,600 But I would, I mean, you talked to the beginning of the podcast 603 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,400 about the great minds and you know, whether it's Aristotle 604 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,640 writing on ethics or whether it's John Stuart Mill or Adam 605 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,800 Smith, I mean, well, I'd always the advice I'd always give young 606 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,960 people is always try to read and try to connect with you talked 607 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,560 about it like a conversation and it is a conversation. 608 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:16,360 Have a conversation with the masters. 609 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:18,640 Have a conversation with the ancients who really knew what 610 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,120 they were talking about. And don't, don't read what 611 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,320 somebody else has said about Adam Smith or John Stuart Mill 612 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,040 or John Locke. Read the original stuff that 613 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,560 they wrote and read. And reread it because you get 614 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,000 something out of it when you're 18 that you're entirely 615 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,880 different to what you get out of it when you're 35 or 55. 616 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:39,240 So I, I would say my strong advice is, you know, go back to 617 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,440 those, those, those authors. There's a lot of wisdom, but 618 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,720 that I would definitely recommend. 619 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:47,360 I very, very much appreciate what you've just said. 620 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,920 I remember that the very first book my father ever gifted me 621 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,360 was Think and Grow Reach by Napoleon Hill. 622 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,640 And I remember I read that as a teenager. 623 00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,800 But just yesterday or the day before, I listened to a blinkist 624 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,760 on that book and he gave me a new perspective. 625 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,800 And of course, I'm really grateful to you. 626 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,560 Thank you very much. Love and respect to you. 627 00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,680 Before you leave, if you want to give a shout out to anyone, let 628 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,040 us know. And to the audience, always go 629 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:20,760 for something in your lives. Constantly strive to thrive and 630 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,080 achieve. So over to you. 631 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,800 For me, it's goodbye. And of course, from Shankar 632 00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,040 Singham to the honors of you, goodbye. 633 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,920 And of course, a shout out to anybody who wants to appreciate. 634 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,120 Well, thank you to you for hosting this and thank you to 635 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,720 your audience for listening to it. 636 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,200 I really enjoyed it and look forward to future, you know, 637 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:41,760 interactions. Thank you very much. 638 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,360 Questions. Goodbye from us.