1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,160 Hello and welcome to this episode of Naked Nuclear. 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,520 I'm Danielle Allen, and today we're talking about something 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,840 that I decided to ask the Internet. 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:16,320 So I came across a post that was asking why California would need 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,400 nuclear if they already have solar plus battery energy 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,920 storage systems. It got complicated. 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:28,120 So as you might have noticed, this season is all about 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,240 understanding how to build a nuclear power plant. 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,360 But I wanted to make this episode to answer the question, 10 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,960 why are we building nuclear power plants? 11 00:00:38,480 --> 00:00:41,160 So I did something I've literally never done before. 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:44,360 I asked the Internet a simple question. 13 00:00:45,160 --> 00:00:49,760 If solar panels and batteries are getting so good, why would 14 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,080 California ever need nuclear energy? 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,360 And within minutes, people started arguing. 16 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,360 Engineers, scientists, energy people. 17 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,280 Some were thoughtful. Some were less thoughtful. 18 00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:04,599 But buried in all of that noise was a really solid question, 19 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,240 which was what actually keeps the lights on? 20 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,720 So let's get started. Let's start with what most 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,640 people think. Solar panels make electricity 22 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,840 during the day. Batteries store extra energy. 23 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:24,320 Problem solved, right? Not quite, because electricity 24 00:01:24,320 --> 00:01:27,280 isn't like food you can store forever. 25 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,680 It's not like your grandma's jar of Peaches that you just put 26 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,160 onto the shelf and they stay there. 27 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,920 It's more like oxygen. You breathe in when you need it. 28 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:38,320 You breathe out when you don't, sort of. 29 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:41,920 And you need it timed appropriately. 30 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,480 Not earlier, not later. And that really changes the way 31 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:50,160 that we think about energy. So if the power grid isn't built 32 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:54,440 for a perfect sunny afternoon, it's understanding the worst 33 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,240 hour rule is if we need energy when we need energy like we need 34 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,600 it when we need it. The power grid cannot be built 35 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,400 for a perfect sunny afternoon. It has to be built for the worst 36 00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,880 hour of the year. And that could be a hot night 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,960 when everyone's AC is blasting, a cloudy stretch where solar 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,480 drops, or when the wind just disappears. 39 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,240 And this is where the idea of dispatchable power comes in. 40 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:24,800 So dispatchable power is power you can turn on whenever you 41 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,880 need it. Whenever demand increases, you 42 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:31,320 can meet that demand. And one of the clearest points 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,200 from one of the comments was the grid needs a substantial portion 44 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:37,080 of this generation to be dispatchable. 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,080 Solar and wind are amazing, but they don't follow your schedule. 46 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,760 They follow the weather. So you're thinking, OK, what if 47 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,280 we just store the energy? And that's where batteries come 48 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:51,720 in. And batteries absolutely help. 49 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:55,440 But here's the catch. Batteries today store energy 50 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,440 for, you know, a few hours, days, weeks, and definitely not 51 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:03,000 entire seasons. One comment summed it up really 52 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,360 well. Covering a grid could require 53 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:10,800 something like 1 terawatt hour of storage, and that is a lot of 54 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,160 batteries, which is also a really polite way of saying 55 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,480 that's an enormous amount of infrastructure, not just 56 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:21,840 batteries, but mining, manufacturing, the global supply 57 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,000 chain at scale that we've never built before. 58 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:29,040 It's not to say that we couldn't build it, but highlighting some 59 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,480 of these ideas around the practicality and logistics of 60 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:37,400 just put batteries everywhere that looks like creating the 61 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,800 supply chains, creating the mining and manufacturing to be 62 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:46,120 able to get the materials we need to build them the last 10%. 63 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:49,320 So we're talking about batteries, we're talking about 64 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:50,880 solar. We're like, OK, this is great. 65 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,440 We put them together, we are solid. 66 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,360 But here's where things get tricky. 67 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,240 If we're trying to get to 70% or 80% clean energy with wind and 68 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:06,920 solar, it's very doable. But getting to 100%, that's 69 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,440 where everything gets really expensive. 70 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,760 If you go back to Season 1, I have an episode with Doctor 71 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,240 Simone Friedrich from the University of Groningham, and we 72 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,680 talked about the philosophy of economics around energy systems. 73 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:26,800 And one of the points he brought up is that last 10% becomes very 74 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:32,160 expensive to get solar plus batteries to 100% reliability 75 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:37,920 24/7 on the grid because now we're trying to cover the worst 76 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,400 weather, the longest nights, the highest demand spikes. 77 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,600 And as one person put it in the comments, that last 10% is 78 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,640 getting really expensive. And most public conversations 79 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,120 just kind of skip over that part because it makes things a little 80 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,560 bit uncomfortable. So now that we're uncomfortable, 81 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:58,320 we're talking about Solars plus batteries. 82 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,400 Let's talk about reliability versus cost. 83 00:05:02,200 --> 00:05:04,880 And I think of this from an engineering perspective, but 84 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:07,320 also from a firefighting perspective. 85 00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:11,480 In a major city, you don't want a fire crew or a fire truck only 86 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,080 available 90% of the time, and then they just clock out. 87 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:19,000 So one of the most consistent ideas from engineers in this 88 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:22,920 discussion was if you want power, you need it to be there 89 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,760 24/7. And that sounds obvious until 90 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:30,960 you realize most of the energy conversations focus on cost per 91 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,720 unit of electricity, not whether that electricity shows up when 92 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:39,040 you need it. Because to me, cheap electricity 93 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,680 at the wrong time is basically useless. 94 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,960 Hospitals don't care that power was cheap at noon if it 95 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,000 disappears at midnight and all of their ventilators stop 96 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,840 working. This is one of the conversations 97 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:54,720 that we're going to be having with Zeon Lights. 98 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:59,960 How energy is life and how the most successful countries have 99 00:05:59,960 --> 00:06:04,680 access to abundant energy. It's our job now to make it 100 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:08,840 clean and reliable. One other thing that we talked 101 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,440 about within the comment section was this idea of capacity 102 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,000 factor. So we want energy that's there 103 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:20,480 24/7, and to do that we have to break down capacity factor, 104 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,800 which means how often something is actually producing energy. 105 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,960 In the United States, nuclear runs about 90% of the time. 106 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,720 Solar runs close to 20 to 25% of the time. 107 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,320 That doesn't mean solar is bad, It just means that you either 108 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,960 need more solar and you need something like batteries backing 109 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,320 it up. Because again, the grid doesn't 110 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,960 care about the potential, it cares about the reality. 111 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,400 And the reality of the situation is that across all forms of 112 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:53,280 energy generation, nuclear is the only generation form that is 113 00:06:53,280 --> 00:06:58,760 in that 90% capacity range. Here in North Carolina, Duke 114 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:03,360 Energy just posted their stat that they had reached a 96% 115 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,200 capacity factor. That means that 96% of the times 116 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,200 their nuclear plants were generating electricity, which is 117 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:11,800 outstanding. Phenomenal. 118 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:16,280 Lastly, one of the comments talked about something that I 119 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,400 think is really difficult when you don't have a background in 120 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,920 energy systems, when it just feels like you get your power 121 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:26,880 from the plug in the wall and that's that. 122 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,600 If there's a blackout, you no longer have power. 123 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:34,440 Oh well, so sad, too bad. But we don't learn about the 124 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:36,280 very things that are keeping us alive. 125 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:40,600 And one of the points that usually comes up around grid and 126 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:46,120 grid stability is grid inertia. So imagine pushing a heavy 127 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,560 spinning wheel. OK, you can't imagine pitching a 128 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,600 heavy spinning wheel because you probably have never pushed a 129 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,800 heavy spinning wheel because this is not the 1700s. 130 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,560 However, you maybe have ridden a bike. 131 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,560 OK, so you're riding a bike on completely flat ground. 132 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,880 You're maybe like 16 years old, hanging out with your friends. 133 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,600 You haven't yet gotten your driver's license, and you guys 134 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,680 are zooming. You try to be the cool kid. 135 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,000 You take your feet off the pedal. 136 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,640 Do you stop? No. 137 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,760 Your bike keeps spinning. It's that inertia, the necessity 138 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,920 to keep moving forward, to keep that motion happening, that 139 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:30,800 keeps those wheels spinning. But really, once something is 140 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,120 moving, it wants to keep moving. That's inertia. 141 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,320 Power plants like nuclear and hydro use big spinning machines, 142 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:43,280 and those spinning machines store energy and that helps keep 143 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,160 the grid stable. So if something were to suddenly 144 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:50,560 change, like a power plant goes offline, that spinning energy in 145 00:08:50,560 --> 00:08:53,800 that turbine gives the grid time to adjust. 146 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,600 Solar panels and batteries, they don't spin. 147 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,200 They connect through electronics, which means that 148 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,320 they don't naturally provide that same stabilizing effect. 149 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,120 However, there is new grid technology coming out to improve 150 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:11,600 that, but as we add more solar and batteries, we actually lose 151 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,000 some of that built in stability and we have to recreate it 152 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:19,680 artificially, which is possible but not simple and also not 153 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:22,200 free. So when we talk about energy, 154 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,760 we're not just talking about replacing the energy and 155 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:29,360 electricity, we're talking about replacing how the grid behaves, 156 00:09:29,680 --> 00:09:33,560 reshaping the system entirely. So within the post that I 157 00:09:33,560 --> 00:09:36,760 highlighted, and I'll link it below in the show notes, the 158 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,840 question posed is what's the point of nuclear? 159 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:44,600 So when people step back from arguing, the clearer picture 160 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:46,320 started to form. Nuclear power. 161 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,640 It runs day and night. It doesn't depend on whether it 162 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,320 produces a lot of energy in small spaces, and it helps 163 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:57,080 stabilize the grid. The key number that stood out is 164 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,880 that nuclear operates around 90% of the time. 165 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,000 When we're looking at solar plus batteries, we're looking at the 166 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:09,320 idea that it one day could operate 90% of the time, not 167 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:12,320 that it already does. That's really important. 168 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,680 And one comment points that out is the reality that nuclear is 169 00:10:17,680 --> 00:10:22,200 already meeting the needs of our population versus the idea that 170 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,040 solar and battery can one day help us get there. 171 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,720 Because when we start to put things online, when we start to 172 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,120 really engineer solutions, one of the things we need to realize 173 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:39,440 is that the idea of 90% capacity factor and the reality of a 90% 174 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:43,120 capacity factor are two completely different things. 175 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:46,600 One's on paper, one's boots on the ground. 176 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,800 And the nice thing about nuclear is these are 90% capacity 177 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:55,880 factors with engineering that was originated in the 70s for 178 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,800 most plants. So if you think about what we 179 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:03,240 could do today with improved technology, that's why Duke 180 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Energy hitting 96% capacity factor is really exciting. 181 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,480 It's not just about energy, it's about the idea of reliability 182 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:16,440 24/7. So to me, I like an all of the 183 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,280 above approach when we're thinking about energy systems, 184 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:24,280 because I've worked in natural disasters, when you need energy 185 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:28,000 and you need it fast, diesel generators get deployed, solar 186 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:31,680 comes in, We need things that are easily transportable, boots 187 00:11:31,680 --> 00:11:33,480 on the ground, and it gets there fast. 188 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,640 But when we're looking at systems that need to be 189 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:40,760 stabilized on a mass scale, that's where nuclear comes in. 190 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,000 So to me, the real fight, it's not just what's the point of 191 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,560 nuclear, can we get it done with solar? 192 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,760 It's about trust, cost, and identity. 193 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:51,800 Some people don't trust nuclear because it's expensive. 194 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,640 Projects have gone over budget. Other people don't trust solar 195 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,880 only systems because they worry about reliability and what 196 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:00,680 happens in a worst case scenario. 197 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:04,440 And when people argue about energy, what they're really 198 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:08,240 asking is who do I trust to keep the lights on? 199 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,600 So if you're wondering why does California need nuclear at all, 200 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:18,640 it's not because solar is bad. It's because energy systems have 201 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,960 to work even when the conditions aren't perfect. 202 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,200 When the sun is shining, when the demand is high, when power 203 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:29,440 plants go offline. So before I wrap up, I want to 204 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,440 thank everyone who jumped into the comments on this post. 205 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:37,600 Y'all brought data, thoughtful explanations and some strong 206 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,560 opinions, but I think all of it helped surface a better question 207 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,520 and that is what naked nuclear is all about. 208 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,160 Stripping down today's energy topics around nuclear technology 209 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:52,840 to really understand what are the solutions and turning them 210 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,160 into something we can actually understand. 211 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:59,960 Thank you to Jason Corey, John McClure, Ron King, Thomas Moore, 212 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,680 Chris Johns, Eric Harvey, Jonathan Raymond Ross 213 00:13:04,680 --> 00:13:10,040 Konenstein, Michael Burt, David Disheartens, Carl Wurtz, Thomas 214 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:16,040 Agete, Joe Ford, Ashley Forbes, Oscar Paulson, Dylan Allen, No 215 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,320 relation to Danielle Allen, Jesse Williams, and Thomas 216 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:21,640 Roush. Thank you so much for everyone 217 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,520 for commenting, for providing us some answers and clarity from 218 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,040 your experience and expertise and being able to make this 219 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,080 episode happen. If you like this episode, please 220 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,360 share it with a friend and until next time, stay curious.