1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:06,040 Nikola Tesla was a visionary beyond his time, and those who 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:11,120 study electromagnetism follow in his footsteps, piercing together 3 00:00:11,120 --> 00:00:14,240 electric mysteries that become tomorrow's breakthroughs. 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,000 In today's episode, we're meeting one of those students, 5 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,760 Ryan Serpa, who's looking at researching fusion technologies. 6 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:27,560 I remember in my 4th grade when I first built that Tesla foil 7 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,120 and I looked into Nikola Tesla. Ever since then, I was 8 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,120 fascinated with understanding how things work. 9 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,200 We'll be honing in on what curiosity pulled him into study 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,240 electromagnetism, and eventually fusion. 11 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:45,080 We'll be tracing his path from a curious 4th grader to a student 12 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:49,240 athlete at Purdue all the way to studying his PhD. 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,080 So let's get started. My name is Ryan Zurbuth. 14 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:59,760 I will be graduating from Purdue University, majoring in nuclear 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:01,560 engineering and minoring in physics. 16 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:08,560 I've specialized in research in what's called fusion energy, 17 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,480 which involves rather than the typical fission reactors that we 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:16,920 have today that utilize heavy elements such as uranium that's 19 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,760 split apart, we utilize lighter elements like hydrogen extracted 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,280 from water that can kind of smash the atoms together and 21 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,360 release the energy. And the goal is to to ultimately 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:33,000 use that to hopefully generate a very efficient electricity. 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,080 Ryan is graduating from Purdue in nuclear engineering, minoring 24 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:42,360 in physics with research in fusion, using light elements 25 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:47,200 like hydrogen to release energy by binding nuclei, not splitting 26 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:49,960 them. So how does someone even get 27 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,040 started in studying something like fusion energy? 28 00:01:54,120 --> 00:02:00,880 I got started in fusion when I was about a freshman or 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:05,800 sophomore in high school. I came from a background of 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,720 always being very curious and interested in science. 31 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,440 I remember that I was asked when I was about fourth grade or 32 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,080 something, what I wanted to be when I grow up, and I said I 33 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,480 wanted to be an inventor. I was fascinated with minds such 34 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,400 as Nikola Tesla, who drew me into the field of 35 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,760 electromagnetism. So much so that I built a Tesla 36 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,360 coil as a little demonstration for my class project. 37 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,280 Not great. And ever since then I was 38 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,680 fascinated with understanding how things worked. 39 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,160 How did the Tesla coil work? What are the origins of the 40 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,160 electric and magnetic fields? And that drew me into particle 41 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:45,800 physics, which I went down the rabbit hole of searching into 42 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:50,560 what the electron is in its wave particle duality. 43 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:55,680 And as I continued further and further, I got more interested 44 00:02:55,680 --> 00:03:00,320 in how I could apply this as well. 45 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,320 It was a combination of my curiosity into understanding how 46 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:07,600 things work and that desire to bring something to life that 47 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,600 could potentially be helpful. From 4th grade I want to be an 48 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:17,400 inventor, to building a Tesla coil for his class, Ryan chased 49 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,760 how electricity fields worked and wandered into particle 50 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,520 physics, finding a home in Fusion's biggest Questions. 51 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:31,320 But once that spark, once that flame is lit, how do you keep it 52 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:33,720 going? Where do you draw inspiration 53 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,880 from as a young scientist wanting to learn more about the 54 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,280 world? One of my big inspirations when 55 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,960 I was young was the Myth Buster show where I watched Adam Savage 56 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,840 and the rest of the crew test common myths that were you 57 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,800 otherwise you you were left to wonder. 58 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,400 And they would build some elaborate device, some robots, 59 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:57,600 and they would blow something up. 60 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:02,840 They would test is in in a scientific manner, in a very fun 61 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:05,440 and educational way, but in a way that yielded results. 62 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:09,880 And I felt like that was the most amazing job in the world 63 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:14,480 and I wanted to do that. And I felt like I was most able 64 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:20,000 to combine my love of applying science in the interest of the 65 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:25,240 betterment of technology and hopefully mankind, as well as my 66 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:28,560 curiosity for understanding how the world works in nuclear 67 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:32,560 fusion. So how really does this path to 68 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:38,880 discovery work in one big Eureka moment or inch by inch along the 69 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:42,000 way? I, I think it's definitely a 70 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,680 combination of both. There can definitely come a 71 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,440 point and there was a point for me where everything kind of came 72 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,720 together and I knew, but that wasn't before years of asking 73 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:56,920 question by question, learning a little bit more. 74 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,920 I remember in my 4th grade when I first built that Tesla coil 75 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,320 and I looked into Nikola Tesla I was doing, we were tasked with 76 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,160 doing a class project on inventors. 77 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:10,840 And initially I wanted to do Edison. 78 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,960 However, Edison had been taken by another classmate of mine 79 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,520 unbeknownst to me. And so I'm doing research on 80 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:20,360 Edison and I present to the teacher and during my research, 81 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,320 I come across the famous current war in the late 1890s over The 82 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,720 Who was going to utilize either direct current or alternating 83 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:32,720 current to power the world fair at that time. 84 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,000 And there was a big nasty dispute between Nikola Tesla and 85 00:05:37,000 --> 00:05:39,760 Thomas Edison. And eventually, as we all know, 86 00:05:39,840 --> 00:05:43,920 Nikola Tesla won and alternating current powered the world fair 87 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,080 that year and powers practically everything we know today. 88 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,480 So I decided to do Nikola Tesla and in researching how the Tesla 89 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:59,400 coil worked, it was fascinating to to come across the idea of 90 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,560 fields that was very of that was very foreign concept. 91 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,440 The idea that fields that can reach across air and, you know, 92 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,480 deliver work and power to things. 93 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,320 It was fascinating to me. And so I wanted to learn more 94 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,360 and through that pursuit, through lots of Internet 95 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:19,600 research, lots of coming across YouTube videos of public science 96 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:24,880 educators online such as The Real Engineering, Cody's Lab, 97 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,480 Styro Pyro, PBS documentaries as well. 98 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:32,800 Things that would light up my curiosity and get get my feet 99 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,960 wet on concepts like wave particle duality and what is the 100 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,680 idea of quantum mechanics versus classical and how does that 101 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:43,680 shape how we understand the world? 102 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:47,320 Little bits and pieces, step by step. 103 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:51,040 I would ask a question. I would ultimately reach the 104 00:06:51,040 --> 00:06:53,320 limit of my knowledge and far surpass it. 105 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,680 I would try to read. I would get lost, and a day or 106 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:01,120 two later I would try again and I would ask my professors and 107 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,800 what does this mean? I knew, OK, these people who 108 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,120 knew particle physics, they know calculus. 109 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:09,880 I need to learn calculus. I have no idea what a limit is. 110 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,160 I have no idea what what a derivative is. 111 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,040 I am still in 7th grade or something at this time. 112 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,320 But I ask and maybe I don't understand the first time, Maybe 113 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:22,680 I don't understand the 10th time. 114 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:28,760 But if I keep asking professors and I keep asking the Internet 115 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,800 and trying to pool wealth knowledge, eventually something 116 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,360 will click. And sure enough, when I came 117 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,840 into the age in which I was taking these classes, I was able 118 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:42,160 to absorb this material a lot more efficiently than I might 119 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,840 have been able to otherwise because of the previous 120 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:46,760 exposure. Even if you don't end up 121 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:52,000 understanding when you dive into a venture, the previous exposure 122 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,400 can help you one day when it all comes in front of you when you 123 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,840 take that class. I think I was watching a 124 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:02,240 documentary about PBS documentary about the universe 125 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:08,000 and it was talking about huge stars in interstellar space and 126 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,480 how they fuse not just hydrogen but heavier elements such as 127 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,200 carbon into nitrogen into oxygen and then even bigger stars can 128 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,320 fuse all the way up to iron. I was curious about this process 129 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,000 of fusion and I look it up. I look up how does fusion work 130 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:28,800 in interstellar stars? Let's pause here. 131 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,320 Ryan is explaining the journey of a young scientist, the 132 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:39,200 consistent pursuit of following your why your curiosity, pulling 133 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:44,200 the threads until you reach an answer and eventually get to the 134 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,720 next big question. So how does fusion work in 135 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,320 interstellar stars? And the first paper I come 136 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,120 across is this paper, paper by Princeton Plasma Physics 137 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:00,280 Laboratory, and they talk about how quantum tunneling is a 138 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:04,160 possible explanation for the lower temperature, the fusion 139 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,160 reactions occurring despite the temperature. 140 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:10,520 And I was amazed because I was like, wow, my love of particle 141 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:15,320 physics, my love of understanding the universe and 142 00:09:15,600 --> 00:09:20,600 its most kind of extreme and arguably beautiful conditions, 143 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,600 and all of this merges into one place. 144 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,520 This is what I want to do. There are so many fundamental 145 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:34,320 questions to answer about interstellar stars, supernovas, 146 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:37,880 solar fusion. But how do you package those 147 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:41,560 questions up into a university curriculum? 148 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,200 But first, a message from our sponsors. 149 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,800 How do you become successful in the job market? 150 00:09:49,560 --> 00:09:53,160 If you're listening to Season 2 of the podcast, you know that 151 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:56,160 networking is key. Why? 152 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,760 Because networking connects you to opportunities you didn't know 153 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,000 existed. Here's the truth in nuclear a 154 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,600 lot of the best jobs get filled before they even hit a job 155 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:10,960 board. That's why you need nuclear 156 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,320 talents. Count their recruiters know the 157 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:16,960 companies, the hiring managers, and what it takes to get your 158 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,240 resume noticed. When you register, you're 159 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:23,760 putting your name in front of decision makers who are already 160 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:28,360 looking for Someone Like You. Go to nucleartalentboost.com and 161 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,640 get started today. Now back to the show. 162 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:38,840 My experience was very, it was very fruitful. 163 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:43,080 I would say that I had a interesting Rd. 164 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:47,480 So at Purdue University, the curriculum largely revolves 165 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,560 around for nuclear engineering, largely revolves around 166 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:53,760 conventional fission nuclear reactors. 167 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:58,760 And they basically they take heavy elements like namely 168 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,280 uranium. And so a lot of my classes 169 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:08,240 revolved around understanding how neutrons are transported in 170 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,960 a nuclear reactor, how they seep through the fuel and the 171 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:16,640 moderating elements, which are the are the materials that 172 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,640 control the nuclear reactors that make them not only safe but 173 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,960 efficient and operable. How to shield against radiation, 174 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,280 understanding how radiation propagates through space and how 175 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,960 it affects different things, including living beings. 176 00:11:32,680 --> 00:11:37,160 There was lots of fundamentals such as it's called like fluid 177 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:42,000 transfer, heat, heat and mass transfer which discussed the 178 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,920 basic thermodynamic and fluid mechanics properties that are 179 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,080 needed to know in this in a power plant setting. 180 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:57,760 However, it was neat because I was able to despite the lack of 181 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,400 fusion specific classes for undergrad. 182 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,440 I was able to frame the way that I viewed these classes as a way 183 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,320 to build my abstract problem solving skills. 184 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,960 Some of these are still definitely applicable in in all 185 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,400 of these classes. Particle transport theories and 186 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,600 codes that are useful for not only simulating fission reactors 187 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,920 but also simulating fusion reactors and charge particle 188 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:27,440 transport. In addition, like fluid 189 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:32,880 mechanics is very applicable to plasma physics as largely what 190 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,800 you do is you it is fluid mechanics with charges. 191 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,280 You add the Lorentz force and all of the effects that ensue As 192 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:45,920 a result. I was able to have a few fusion 193 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:50,320 specific classes thanks to Professor Choi at Purdue and he 194 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,840 has been a great inspiration and mentor to me in which he was 195 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:59,760 able to give me some insight into plasma physics and theory 196 00:12:59,960 --> 00:13:05,040 in the working of the fusion reactor test devices that we 197 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,400 have today. Whether it is the tokamak, the 198 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:12,000 big giant metal doughnut that we all know and love, the laser 199 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,440 ignition facility at the National Ignition Facility in 200 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:19,560 Livermore, CA. Things like Z Pinch Sandia 201 00:13:19,560 --> 00:13:23,560 National Laboratory, in which I was able to work these this 202 00:13:23,560 --> 00:13:28,320 exposure in theory and the combination of that as well as 203 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:33,760 exposure due to my physics minor really helped to build the the 204 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,800 wealth of knowledge that made me feel confident to continue to 205 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,160 pursue this. But despite the lack of 206 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,960 undergraduate opportunities to pursue a field that is so 207 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:48,160 complex and is so tight knit that they're the barrier of 208 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,000 entry seems to be largely Graduate School. 209 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,680 We've talked about internships at national laboratories on the 210 00:13:56,680 --> 00:14:00,360 show before, but we've never talked about Sandia National 211 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,920 Laboratory. Sandia National Laboratories is 212 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,880 a federally funded research and development center headquartered 213 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:12,800 in Albuquerque, NM with a second principal lab in Livermore, CA 214 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,920 Sandia tackles national security problems with world class 215 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:22,160 science and engineering. Think advanced materials, micro 216 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:27,240 and nanoelectronics, energy resilience, cybersecurity, high 217 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,840 energy density physics, and pulse power experiments like the 218 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:34,480 Z machine. They work closely with 219 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:38,640 universities, industries and offer internships for students. 220 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,720 So my research at Sandia National Laboratory, first I 221 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:49,320 studied under Doctor Adam Harvey Thompson and David Ampleford. 222 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:55,840 They're researchers in the fusion energy research sector of 223 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:58,960 Sandia National Laboratory in which they utilize this machine 224 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:05,920 called the Z machine, which is a giant disk with a bunch of 225 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,280 electrical components on the outside marks generators that 226 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,360 charge up and store immense electrical energy. 227 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,200 They use a series of triggers within these devices to send all 228 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,040 of the electrical energy at once. 229 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:26,240 These kind of special conduits that what's called like pulse 230 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:30,760 warming, where they shape the electrical pulse, they decrease 231 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,240 the amount of time that the energy is being deposited and 232 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:40,040 eventually they send it through a tiny cylinder that is filled 233 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,560 with fusion fuel. And this metal cylinder, when 234 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:48,400 you send a electrical current through a wire, you generate a 235 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:53,920 magnetic field about the axis, and the combination of that 236 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,680 current and the magnetic field produce a force, and that force 237 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:03,240 is inward radially, and so it compresses and causes implosion 238 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,800 of the cylinder. And that compression in 100 239 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:13,080 nanoseconds, that compressive force is sufficient to smash 240 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,720 these hydrogen atoms together or deuterium, rather an isotope of 241 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,360 hydrogen to produce fusion. And my research revolved around 242 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,320 a particular experiment they did where we're trying to understand 243 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:31,720 a way to shorten the length of time in which the pulse was 244 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:34,640 delivered while keeping a similar amount of current 245 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:37,640 traveling through the target. And they utilize something 246 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,560 called the wire current array, which is a whole mess of really 247 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:46,400 tiny hair thin wires that explode when the current is sent 248 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,600 out. Imagine 2 metal plates and in 249 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:52,480 between the metal plates you have all these hair thin wires 250 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:57,120 of tungsten or aluminum. And on top of this kind of metal 251 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:01,960 sandwich you have a tiny cylinder of beryllium. 252 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,880 And on top of that is another metal electrode. 253 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,800 And the idea is that you are able to perform this and reduce 254 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,000 the amount of time that the current flows through that 255 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,200 cylinder, which is what you care about, to deliver the force to 256 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,000 the fusion target from 100 nanoseconds to 10. 257 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:24,200 And we were able to observe this through simulations and things 258 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,079 that I helped out with. That research was invaluable for 259 00:17:27,079 --> 00:17:30,160 getting into grad school, but also getting my feet wet and in 260 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,840 into the field and really ensuring that this is in fact, 261 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:38,040 what I'm passionate about. On Sandia's Z machine, Ryan 262 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,520 continued experiments that compressed tiny fuel filled 263 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:45,200 targets using colossal shaped electrical pulses. 264 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,320 Wire array tricks shunted current into the target faster, 265 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,080 shrinking A-100 nanosecond delivery to 10 nanoseconds. 266 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:59,160 So the magnetic squeeze happens hard and fast, enabling fusion 267 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,120 conditions and giving him first hand high energy density 268 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:06,320 experience. But even though Ryan spent most 269 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,800 of that summer in the desert during the school year, he 270 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,000 actually spends most of it in the pool. 271 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,360 So how do you balance the workload for heavy math and 272 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:19,320 physics when you're also training like a collegiate D1 273 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:23,840 athlete? I was a varsity swimmer the last 274 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,000 four years I had produced a university. 275 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:28,640 I was very grateful to have that opportunity. 276 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:32,800 Division One, which meant that I was able, I was fortunate enough 277 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,080 to get scholarship for my athletics and which helped pay 278 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,920 for my school. That was a vital piece of my 279 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,440 life that I would not have been able to have this opportunity 280 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:45,200 otherwise. And so, yeah, we would. 281 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:51,120 We'd swim around 20 hours a week and have many other obligations 282 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:53,160 outside it. It was a full time job. 283 00:18:53,400 --> 00:19:00,640 I would get up around 5:30 in the morning, eat breakfast, roll 284 00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:05,560 into practice around six O clock or 630, and we'd practice from 285 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:11,760 6:30 to 7:30 or 8:00 in the morning, at which point I would 286 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:14,520 go to class. Usually have several hours of 287 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,720 class. My kind of average course load 288 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,160 was about 15 credit hours or so. Just not terrible. 289 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:26,920 But it's I'm having usually I'd go to a three hour lab and then 290 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:33,200 I'd go to two to three hour long lectures, at which point it'd be 291 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:37,720 about eat breakfast during class, of course, at which point 292 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,520 I would go eat lunch somewhere in the middle of the day. 293 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,920 And around 2:00, 2/30 we would go lift weights for hour 15 294 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,320 until about 4 and we roll straight over to the pool, swim 295 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:55,520 from 4:30 to 6:30. Something about we averaged 296 00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:59,840 about like 5000 yards a day in the afternoons alone. 297 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:06,360 Mornings are also something like anywhere from 3 to 5000 yards as 298 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:10,920 well. And then we would eat dinner 299 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,480 until about 8:00 or so, go home, do homework, usually do at the 300 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:17,520 end of the night, rinse and repeat. 301 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,640 Three lifting sessions a week. Practices Monday through 302 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,280 Saturday. 3 morning practices a week. 303 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,480 It was a lot but very valuable experience in in learning how to 304 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:32,600 manage my time and of course allowing me this opportunity in 305 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,480 the first place. Division One swimming 20 plus 306 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,200 hours a week, pre dawn practices, labs and lectures, 307 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,080 lifts, afternoon yardage and then homework. 308 00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:48,160 That is a full time job and I would know I was a student 309 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:53,040 athlete myself, but I played softball and I always felt bad 310 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,360 for the swimmers. However, that commitment and 311 00:20:56,360 --> 00:20:59,920 dedication forged time management, resilience and 312 00:20:59,920 --> 00:21:03,200 focus. So how do you manage near robot 313 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,440 like performance as a college athlete to something completely 314 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:11,880 different such as communicating with the public about fusion 315 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,960 energy? The biggest thing that I try to 316 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,280 remind people almost a preface that I like to give when I 317 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,880 discuss what I do and what I'm interested in, but also science 318 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,240 at in general. I think anybody who works in the 319 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:33,800 engineering field or in any of the sciences has an obligation 320 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:39,720 to attempt to bridge the gap between the general public and 321 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:41,880 scientists and our wealth of knowledge. 322 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:48,920 The purpose of science is to uncover truths and to hopefully 323 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,280 use them to to better society. And I think the more that the 324 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,040 general public understands what it is that we do, the more 325 00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:00,840 efficiently you will be able to do so. 326 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,040 The first thing that I like to say is be careful not to 327 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:07,920 conflate knowledge and intelligence, right? 328 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:11,920 There is an important distinction I feel between how 329 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,640 much like how much it is that you know about a particular 330 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:21,040 subject, your ability to understand that subject, and I 331 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,520 think effort, patience, and I guess resilience, these are very 332 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,160 important qualities in intelligence. 333 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,680 And so I try to remind people that it is OK not to understand 334 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,240 as long as you're willing to accept something new. 335 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,840 That is something that the book. I would highly recommend Letters 336 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,120 to a Young Scientist by Edward Wilson, a Pulitzer Prize winning 337 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:50,120 entomologist, I believe, who discusses all kinds of valuable 338 00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:54,000 pieces of advice all throughout a scientist's career, from a 339 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,880 young child to well into their career. 340 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:01,520 I would highly recommend. Our climate reality is kind of 341 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:05,160 bleak, but the younger generation of students are 342 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,160 wasting no time getting to work and finding real world 343 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,280 solutions. That's part of the reason why 344 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:15,200 we're seeing such an increase in enrollment in nuclear energy. 345 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,920 Students are wanting to find the solutions to the climate crisis 346 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:23,040 and get paid for it. So how does Ryan spend his time 347 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:26,400 explaining fission and fusion to high schoolers he knows? 348 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:33,320 If I had to explain fusion to someone who didn't understand, I 349 00:23:33,320 --> 00:23:40,040 would first discuss and set the stage by saying that we are in 350 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,640 an energy crisis, right? Global temperature on average is 351 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:47,040 rising, which you have to remember that is the average 352 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:48,520 global temperature that is rising. 353 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,080 There are more violent fluctuations in temperature. 354 00:23:51,360 --> 00:23:55,560 The other piece is the population rise in the demands 355 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:58,840 for energy is rising and it's not something I think people 356 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,640 realize. But one of the first things that 357 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:06,400 we did in my intro to nuclear, intro to thermonuclear fusion 358 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:12,200 class at Purdue was we calculated based on the, the 359 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,120 knowledge of energy consumption and the population growth rates 360 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:22,080 and the reserves and the energy density of oil and natural gas. 361 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:27,880 We calculated how long it would be for energy reserves until our 362 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,280 oil and gas were no longer sufficient to to supply energy 363 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,400 to the world's population. We need something new and 364 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,480 preferably, ideally, we need something cleaner that does not 365 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:44,000 output carbon dioxide and, and perfluorocarbons and thin and 366 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,600 different compounds into the air that eat at the ozone layer 367 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:52,640 pollute the atmosphere. Nuclear energy has been a key 368 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,360 piece of that puzzle. The nuclear energy fission is, 369 00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:02,840 which is what we currently have with uranium, is 1,000,000 times 370 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:09,160 more energy efficient in terms of units of energy gained per 371 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,720 mass of fuel, like joules per kilogram or something like that. 372 00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,960 It is a million times more efficient than oil and gas. 373 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:23,760 As it turns out, fusion is 3 to 4 times more energy efficient at 374 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,920 least than conventional fission nuclear power. 375 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:33,040 And so that is where the interest and the need for this 376 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,720 type of energy is it comes from. And on top of that, it also does 377 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,320 not produce the same types of nuclear waste that fission fuel 378 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:46,720 does. When you have a gas such as 379 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,360 hydrogen that's really hot, hot enough that their vibration, 380 00:25:50,360 --> 00:25:55,000 they break free of the electrons in negative charge orbiting this 381 00:25:55,120 --> 00:25:59,560 positively charged proton. They are moving about South 382 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,600 violently that they RIP free from their electrons and their 383 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,280 ions. The protons and the electrons 384 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,160 flow about freely and separately from each other. 385 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:09,720 You know what's called the plasma? 386 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,240 Plasma is just a super hot gas that does that. 387 00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,640 And so now you have these protons and these protons are 388 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,040 both positively charged and they are certain distance away from 389 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,640 each other. They're moving really fast, as 390 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,760 you may remember, like with magnets or with the experiment 391 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:30,120 where you have rub a piece of glass or plastic on a cloth and 392 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:34,200 charge it up, and then you can extend out the balloon or 393 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,800 something, and you can repel the balloon. 394 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,760 Something positively charged repels something else possibly 395 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,400 charged. And so there's this immense 396 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,960 force that's pushing these protons apart. 397 00:26:46,360 --> 00:26:52,480 But in the sun there's so much hydrogen, there's so many Earth 398 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,600 masses of hydrogen that the force due to gravity is so 399 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:01,080 intense of all this mass pulling in on each other that it over. 400 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:07,680 It's able to force the protons to overcome that proton, that 401 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,200 positive charge to positive charge repulsive force so that 402 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,720 they get so close together that they smash into each other the 403 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,120 protons. And when they smash into each 404 00:27:17,120 --> 00:27:21,480 other, a another force takes over called the strong nuclear 405 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:26,120 force that only operates under very small distances, extremely, 406 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:29,520 exceedingly small. This force takes over and it 407 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,240 binds the protons together. And when it does so, this 408 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,960 process actually releases energy. 409 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,800 We don't have the luxury of using gravity and so we have to 410 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:47,520 use very advanced laser technology and or huge coils of 411 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:52,720 wire such as Electro magnets to force these protons together to 412 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,840 produce the same result. And hopefully the goal is that 413 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:01,440 we are able to do so on a scale that we can use for power 414 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,440 generation to hopefully solve this problem. 415 00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:07,880 I have to agree with Ryan. We scientists, engineers, 416 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,840 doctors, biologists, physicists owe the public clarity. 417 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,680 We should take the time to explain how we got to the 418 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,960 knowledge we did and start to show the messy side of learning, 419 00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,840 starting with the why scaffolding to the how, and then 420 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:26,920 letting students do the research. 421 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,360 But now it's time for our rapid fire questions. 422 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:33,240 So the first one is. If. 423 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,640 You had to develop a futuristic city. 424 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,520 What three things would you put in it? 425 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,520 I would put, assuming the technology exists, I would put a 426 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,400 fusion reactor. I would put quantum computing I 427 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,880 guess hardware for the slight server Internet infrastructure 428 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:59,240 of the city and material to be used for all manner of 429 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,520 appliances and wires, things of that sort. 430 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:06,920 That's a good one. Next question, what's your 431 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,480 favorite meal? Sushi unagi sushi easily. 432 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,760 Eel sushi is one of my favorite things of all time. 433 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,520 I love it. I barely for it, but when I can. 434 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,040 Fuji it is Unagi. OK, awesome. 435 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,040 Aside from swimming, do you have any other? 436 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,520 I play guitar. I have my guitar behind me. 437 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,720 I was playing a little bit before I hopped on. 438 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,120 Love to play video games. I love to think it's fun. 439 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:41,280 I love to hike surf as a California, LA native, and I 440 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,480 love to most recently at rock climbing. 441 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,600 There's been a recent uptake climb. 442 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,160 I've loved it, It's been awesome. 443 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:50,680 Amazing. And then if you could travel 444 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,640 somewhere to learn more about fusion or just science, where 445 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:55,840 would you go? Where are you travelling to? 446 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:01,040 Think I would have to travel to Germany to see the Bendelstein 447 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:06,200 7X accelerator. I think that machine is really 448 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,400 cool. I almost would have answered the 449 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,600 NIF facility in Livermore, but I live in California and I'm going 450 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,840 to make a point to see it. So it's something harder and 451 00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,680 something more, something interesting and cool to see. 452 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,720 Definitely be that machine out there at the Max Planck 453 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,960 Institute. What grad school are you going 454 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:24,880 to? And then what are you going to 455 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:29,320 be studying as you're there? I will be going to University of 456 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,960 Rochester in upstate New York and I will be pursuing my PhD 457 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,880 studying high energy density physics, which is this fields of 458 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:43,080 which includes nuclear fusion research which I hope to make my 459 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:48,520 focus the focus of my PhD. They utilize a amazing laser 460 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,400 facility, the Laboratory of Laser Energetics, in which I 461 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:58,520 hope to explore the behaviour of materials, mainly fusion fuel 462 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,600 and the like. Hundreds of millions of degrees 463 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:07,680 temperature, hundreds of millions of pascals of pressure 464 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,080 and times the atmosphere. Yeah, very exciting, very 465 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,120 extreme conditions of materials focused study and I'm very much 466 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,320 looking forward to. It amazing. 467 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,280 And yeah, I'm also looking forward to seeing the research 468 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,240 that you're doing, publishing things. 469 00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,960 I'm like, oh, that's really exciting. 470 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:30,600 Before recording this episode, Ryan and I chatted briefly about 471 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,880 what it's like to be a nerd, to be driven by your curiosities, 472 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:38,080 and sometimes it can be difficult. 473 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:42,360 So I wanted to ask him what advice does he have for young 474 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,640 scientists and other kids labeled as the nerds of the 475 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,760 world I. Mean, I was bullied a bit when I 476 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,920 was young for being a nerd. Reading I 7th grade I'd sit in 477 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,280 on AP physics and didn't understand a thing, but I'd be 478 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,760 sitting with all the juniors in high school and reading and 479 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,200 trying to absorb the best I could. 480 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:07,480 Huge nerd. My best advice is try your best 481 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:13,640 to surround yourself with people or media that are like minded in 482 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,480 your curiosity. Feed your curiosity. 483 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,440 I think that is the single most important thing you can do. 484 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,600 I've been introverted for all of my life. 485 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,440 I've been able to grow slowly to the point of doing things like 486 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,640 this podcast for instance, which has been amazing, but you slowly 487 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,880 develop the confidence over exercising this curiosity by 488 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,200 asking people. We humans are social creatures 489 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,920 and I think we stand to gain nothing by venturing into the 490 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,120 unknown by ourselves. I've come to learn that it's 491 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,280 much more valuable to be slightly annoying and persistent 492 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,560 than it is to be obedient or quiet. 493 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,200 My favorite scenes that I think about from the movie to psych 494 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,240 myself up to to ask questions is in the movie Shawshank 495 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,480 Redemption. The main character, he's in 496 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,680 prison. He wants a library for the 497 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,960 prison. He wants to help people to read 498 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,560 and he wants to read himself. And the warden is super corrupt. 499 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,760 The warden's like, no, I'm not going to get a library. 500 00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,840 So the main character, he writes a letter to someone above the 501 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,960 warden's head and they don't respond and he goes and I sent 502 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,920 another letter the next week and the next week and the next week, 503 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,920 50 something letters later, they built this library and they sent 504 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,800 a letter back to tell us to stop sending so many letters. 505 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:42,840 I think of that every time of being persistent and reminding 506 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:47,920 myself that like my curiosity is someone is out there that is 507 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:54,360 willing to lift you up and I encourage you to stay persistent 508 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,400 in finding that person. Feed your curiosity 509 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,520 relentlessly. Ask dumb questions. 510 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,080 Find people and media that nurture your learning. 511 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,840 Be politely persistent, because the worst thing you can hear is 512 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:14,639 no, and the next yes could unlock a whole set of new 513 00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:17,320 questions. I wanted to thank Ryan for 514 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,719 coming onto the show and giving us a little bit more insight to 515 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:26,120 his world, studying fusion energy from Tesla coils to the Z 516 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,159 machine, from the pool to the desert, and reminding us that 517 00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:35,719 curiosity plus persistence is a chain reaction of success on its 518 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,760 own. Next time on Naked Nuclear, we 519 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,520 head to the Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory. 520 00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:45,600 From quantum tunneling in stellar cores to the machines 521 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,400 that people pushing fusion forward. 522 00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:50,440 Until next time, stay curious.